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Saturday, May 19, 2007
Michael McBride :: Townhall.com Columnist
Call Me an Islamaphob
by Michael McBride
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Phobia, as described by Webster... “an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation.”

Foxnews.com picked up on an Arab News story coming out of the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) in Islamabad, Pakistan on Thursday that describes Islamaphobia as “the worst form of terrorism” and the OIC was asking for steps world wide to curb it.

The OIC describes Islamaphobia as the “deliberate defamation of Islam and discrimination and intolerance of Muslims.” The OIC alludes to Islamaphobia as a concern well before 9/11…“Islamophobia became a source of concern, especially after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, but the phenomenon was already there in Western societies in one form or the other…” They offer no specific examples.

I’ll be the first to acknowledge that the variety of the world’s non-Muslim countries cultures’ mix with Muslim culture like water and oil, but prior to 9/11; in spite of dozens of aircraft hijackings and the murders associated with many of them, in spite of the 1972 Olympics; in spite of the Achille Lauro (1985), in spite of the first WTC bombings (1993), in spite of the bombings of the Khobar Towers (1996), in spite of the indiscriminate killing of hundreds in the US Embassy bombings (1998), in spite of the USS Cole (2000), Muslims were able to live peacefully throughout the world without fear, harassment, nor threat of persecution.

In fact it is nearly impossible to directly associate any link between 9/11 and an increase in crimes against Muslims in the US. The best accounting I can find is here at religioustolerance.org, where the outrageous attacks on Muslims after 9/11 translates to 3 dead, one beaten, some threats made, and some property damaged.

Seems pale in comparison of the carnage that lies in the wake of motivated Muslims…twelve innocents dead in Munich, one innocent dead on the Achille Lauro and dumped into the sea, six dead and over 1000 injured in the first WTC bombing, twenty dead and 372 injured in the Khobar Towers bombings, over two hundred dead and 4000 injured in the US embassy bombings, seventeen dead in the USS Cole attack. Add in 2973 dead in the 9/11 attacks, 191 killed and 2050 injured in the Madrid bombings in 2004, Theo van Gogh murdered in the streets of Amsterdam 2004, fifty-two dead and 700 injured in the London bombings of July 2005, several killed and property damage worldwide in the aftermath of the Danish cartoon scandal of 2006. By my count that is nearly 3500 innocent people killed by those purporting to be believers in the religion “of peace.”

Sorry if I am more afraid of Muslims than I am of, let’s say, you run of the mill yokel who made some anti-Muslim remarks on 9/12. Those serving the Prophet have a much higher kill ratio than the Christians, the secularists, the atheists, the agnostics, the Jews, and the Wiccans combined.

I am at a loss to figure out how being afraid of Muslims, because they happen to be the world’s largest generator of terrorists, is a greater form of terror than the actual terror than that which is being perpetrated by Muslims extremists on the rest of the world’s population nearly everyday of our lives. This is like castigating an assault victim for being afraid of their attacker.

The OIC is clearly engaging in a classic “desensitivization” and “relativism” spin in trying to compare the brutal savagery committed by Muslim Jihadists over the past 35 years to the actual fear generated by those attacks. They are attempting to carve inroads into and place limitations on, our rights to free speech. And they are seeking an exceptional governmental deference towards their religion. All of which flies in the face of logic when compared to the body count that extreme Islamic Jihadists have racked up. Muslims need to be held accountable for those murders, not venerated as victims.

Is it irrational to fear shoe bombs, dirty bombs, homicidal bombers, homicidal hijackers, anonymous Muslim car bombers, armed kidnappers, video-taping beheaders, truck bombers, airplane crashers, hotel bombers, train bombers, subway bombers, ship bombers, when all of these terror methodologies have been used or attempted in the recent past?

The OIC needs a little perspective. As the second leading inter-governmental organization, behind the UN, it needs to understand that by condemning “discrimination and intolerance,” but not condemning murder and terror, they prove themselves the second biggest hypocritical inter-governmental organization in the world, also still behind the UN. It is inconceivable that an organization supposedly speaking for 57 nations and various other interested parties, can berate other countries for discrimination, while providing no proof or significant harm, but then fail to mention in the least the devastation that has been wrought on the rest of civilized by society by Muslim extremists.

To have murderous behavior defended by oblique attacks on the societies that have been victimized by such attacks is ludicrous in the extreme. Moderate Muslims, if they are who they claim to be, cannot put the loathing of terror and it perpetrators in the same category of wonton murder and terror upon innocents.

If fearing terrorists, Jihadists, wahabists, etc. and et. al., because of their brutal and indiscriminate killing sprees, makes me irrational AND an Islamaphobe…then, I guess I am one.

And sorry OIC…the worst form of terrorism is indiscriminate murder, not “defamation and intolerance.”

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About The Author
Michael E. McBride retired as a Major from the Marine Corps and blogs at http://www.mysandmen.blogspot.com.

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Getting yourself venerated
... as a victim. The aspiration of many these days. (McBride's words: "Muslims need to be held accountable for those murders, not venerated as victims.")

We could start by doing a little less venerating of victims. Sympathy is great, but we've gone overboard in the practice of adjusting state policy to each new designation of victims. The OIC's surreal declaration is clearly intended to catch the attention of victim-venerating Westerners.

I'm sorry for a lot of victims in a lot of situations, but making that actionable for state policy is a questionable leap. Certainly it is in this case.

How about this, OIC: we'll beat up anybody who calls you names, but meanwhile, you're in our target sites. You know why you're there. We've told you what it will take to get out of them. Ball's in your court.

Scourge of Islam
I think it's central for conservatives to put their support with outstanding people like Michael McBride on these issues. I've written in my own blog (click on name above) on Ayaan Hirsi Ali, author of "Infidel," and a model of intelligence and courage in the battle against Islamic intolerance and hatred of non-Muslims. As McBride points out, it's not wrong to fear people who are sworn to kill "infidels," i.e., us. Can we speak the truth? Islam is a bogus religion, and it is unsustainable in any sort of free society, so it chooses to ensure that its societies are unfree. Let's band together, create coalitions, and rid the earth of this scourge.

steve maloney
ambridge, pa

Islam
Dark messiahs remarks are either totally naieve or deceptive. Islamic violence has nothing to do
with Iraq or Afghanistan. Thats what Islamist apologist would have you think. If What Dark Messiahs message is correct let him come up for a reason for the massive killing in Sudan, Nigeria, Darfur, The Philiphines, Malasia. This Islamic violence has been going on for years. Islam IS a violent religion but first its a POLITICAL force. Heard of any Islamic Missionaries lately? No but you sure hear of Christian missionaries being slaughter by them. Nice try Dark messiah!!

Don't bother us with this!
Don't bother us with this: we're busy passing more "hate crime" legislation! Sheesh...

Oh, Dark? "Our Islamic problem will end when we quit trying to establish an empire in the Middle-East and quit being a lackey to that pariah Israel." How odd that our (the U.S.) Islamic problem existed before the first US military expedition to the ME? In fact, our first military expedition to the ME was because of the "Islamic problem," and at the time Israel was prophecy, not fact.


Islam is
The most brutal, oppressive and hellish religion on God's green earth, but the infatuation liberals have with Islam will end only when their heads begin to roll. Those brutes want to kill us simply because we are not them. You deal with people like that in the only way they understand: Shoot them and send them to hell, where they belong.

A Sixth Century God Menaces the West
Islamists are the new barbarians hammering at the gates of western civilization. To survive we have to pull them, kicking and screaming the name of Allah, into the 21st Century. If only we could enlist some of the pointy-headed academics who have done such a good job of deconstructing Christianity to begin pulling down this ridiculous religion right out of some third-rate sci-fi novel. Where are the courageous comedians who take shots at Christ amd Christianity on a daily basis but dare not cast any barbs at a religion that treats women like slaves and makes murder a virtue?

Educating Rudy on Iraq by Ron Paul


This is a great video everybody should see about Iraq!



CLICK HERE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/educating-rudy-on-iraq-by-ron-paul

Also watch this video!

FOX SPIN on Ron Paul

Click Here

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/educating-rudy-on-iraq-by-ron-paul


"moderate muslims"
islam is a governing system as well as religion (deathcult). The so called moderate muslims are nothing more than the civilian islamic population and the "radical muslims" are the military. Much like Average Joe American is a civilian and GI joe is a soldier.
The only muslims that protest terrorism truthfully ignore one of the main goals of islam, which is the global domination of islam.

my 2 cents
'Muslims need to be held accountable for those murders ....'

They will be


Islam is incompatible with
the Constitution of the U.S.

Any "religion" that would have it's adherants put it ahead of their country and call for that country to be destroyed and it's citizens forced to convert would be as well.

As has been posted many times here, islam is a political movement posing as a religion.
I argued the other day on some site with a woman who converted to this cult..I asked why she would willingly join something that hates women, wants them uneducated, covered up top to bottom, refuses them the most basic of human rights like voting etc etc. She wouldn't answer, but called ME stupid. Amazing what a college education will do.

Throw them out along with the illegals, they are both threats.


Handy's comments
Add nothing to this discussion. Why did you feel it necessary to gratuitously attack the author, rather than substantively address any disagreement with his article? Ad hominem attacks don't convey any useful information or provide any worthwhile perspective.

Islam is a 7th century cult
It is an obsession with 7th century Arabia and an international men's club. It dehumanizes women and turns adherents into robots who bow and scrape the ground, butts in the air, five times a day and pepper ordinary conversation with references to Allah and Mohommed 24/7. It has no place in the West.

How so many so-called liberals can be apologists for this backwardness (while at the same time, excoriating Christians at every turn) is beyond my comprehension. The only thing I can conclude is that it helps further the Leftist goal of tearing this country down in furtherance of one-worldism in which everyone is equally miserable.

I refuse to dumb myself down and show respect for a 7th century cult that deserves no respect, so I say it loudly and clearly for all to hear: I hate Islam. Islam needs to go.

Always make use of the basics!
For the purposes of this subject, Muslims may be divided into three groups: Islamists and their willing supporters and enablers; UNwilling supporters and condoners of Islamism; and peaceable Muslims who bear no one any ill will. Unfortunately, the first group dominates the other two, because of its known willingness to kill and brutalize, and because Islam's core doctrines provide it with firm support.

Given these conditions, fearing Muslims is merely self-protection. Fearing Islam, even unto refusing Muslim would-be immigrants access to this country, is more of the same. Americans should be encouraged to read the Qur'an and the Sunnah (Muhammad's biography) to decide these things for themselves.

Reply to Dark Messiah
Dark Messiah,
Your ilk continue to amaze me. If you were living under Muslim law, you wouldn't be able to spout one-tenth of the nonsense that you do here. When will the libs understand that they would be among the first victims if the "religion of peace" had its way? This cultural equivalence as a goal has got to stop.

Islamaphobic--ME TOO!
I'm guessin there's a bunch of us out here!

One-way tolerance
Those who condemn Islamophobia want us to be tolerant of Muslims. But what about Muslims themselves? How tolerant are they of others? Not very tolerant at all. So, why no pressure on them to be tolerant?

By the way, DarkMessiah, do you really find it that hard to spell bin Laden? Since when do words or names have three d's in a row in them?

I beg to difer on what to call you
I would not call you and Islamophob even when I agree with every single one of your written words 100%. I don't call you such because a phobia, as quoted on your column itself, is an "irrational" fear of something.
When it comes to Islam, and I call upon every sensible and moral human being to bear witness to this, there is nothing irrational about being afraid of such religion of violence, murder, hatred and ignorance. Islam does not tolerate critism of any kind and to them merely believing on a different religion, or not believing at all, is an "insult" since to them Islam is the one and only thing to believe. Hence their intolerance, their fanaticism, their violence and their despicable stupidity.
Islam as such deserves not to be feared, but hated.

RE: Dan 874
BINGO!

"islam is a governing system as well as religion (deathcult). The so called moderate muslims are nothing more than the civilian islamic population and the "radical muslims" are the military. Much like Average Joe American is a civilian and GI joe is a soldier.
The only muslims that protest terrorism truthfully ignore one of the main goals of islam, which is the global domination of islam."

MichaelMcBride

OK, you're and Islamaphob. Congratulations on a good column.

When we see a raid dog we shoot it. When we see entire rabid dog pack we need more fire power. When we see an entire rabid country of dogs, maybe we should purify the land and start all over again.

They have vowed to kill us. When are we as a nation going to start believing them?

This is not a Politically Correct opinion. Quick call the PC police. these thought must be a hate crime. Never mind that their actions are motivated by hate. Only the victims can be charged with a hate crime in this country.

Crossing the line
Islamophobia, in a moderate form, is not necessarily a bad thing. The problems occur when all Muslims, or the entire religion, is generalized into a radical Islamophobic mindset, illustrated perfectly by statements like:

>Islam as such deserves not to be feared, but hated.<

There are approximately 10 million Muslims in this country. The vast majority are peaceful, moderate people with jobs and businesses who are not fanatics or violent. If Muslims, taken as a group, were as radical as defined by some, this country would have daily suicide bombings and beheadings. The vast majority of Muslims in the world are the same way, especially those who have stable economic structures - Dubai being a perfect example, where westerners are safer on the streets than they would be in US urban areas like Detroit, Los Angeles, New York or Chicago.

The need is to concentrate on the radical contingencies of wahabism, salfism, anti-Semitism and like-minded radical ideologies.
Currently, this country is accepting large numbers of refugees from war-ravaged Iraq, just as we did from war-ravaged Bosnia a decade ago.
The opportunity for violent Muslims, bent on destruction of Western values, rises substantially as we open our doors to this type of immigration.
Concurrently, elements within this country's Muslim community, like CARE, need to be marginalized so authorities can track Muslim activities as it pertains to financing and organizing activities that are detrimental to our values, or a threat to our security. Profiling Muslims is just something they'll have to accept if they wish to live here.


You are all wrong
Islam is a crime syndicate not a religion. We dont give the Mafia tax free status, nor should we with Islam in this country. Its almost comical how people wish to defend them in postings. I wonder what their real reason is?

They have vowed to kill us.
What a dishonest statement. Who is they? Has that Muslim cab driver that took you from JFK to Greenwich Village vowed to kiil you? Has that waitress that served you kabobs and hummus last night vowed to kill you? Has the salesman that sold you that beautiful Persian rug vowed to kill you?

You're as radical as the radical Muslims.

by the way
Someone told me yesterday that the definition of a moderate muslim is someone who has no opinion while his brother commits jihad on your family.....................................................There is no such thing as a moderate muslim

Dan 874
You've made an excellent analogy. UTAH, it might be enlightening to you to read the Koran, and the Hadith (Mohammed's teachings as interpreted by Koranic "scholars"). Islam's most basic tenets have everything to do with conquest, and subjugation of others. Dan is absolutely correct when he states that "moderate" muslims are merely the militarily inactive part of their population. They still, for the most part, support the jihadi's goals. Yes, that is a generalization, and there are many exceptions, but taken as a whole the generalization stands. Any study of muslim polling data supports that statement. The only vocal muslim organization in the U.S. that denies this, is CAIR, a propagandist for Hamas. Incidentally, the tendency of muslims to denigrate and belittle those who find muslim aggression offensive, is a tactic espoused by Mohammed himself, as a propaganda ploy to be used until the muslim population is large enough to effect dominance by force.
I am John Doe.

2 more cents
Q: What GOOD can one say about a religion that makes martyrs out of its children, proclaims its willingess to sacrifice its children, urges its children on to martyrdom and uses mickey mouse characters on TV to glorify the child martyrs in its past?

A: Not a whole lot

Examples - in their own words - of every one of my statements can be found by going to http://WWW.MEMRI.ORG in their present articles and in the SD section of the Archives - #1176 and #1197.

Utah
"Profiling muslims is just something they'll have to accept if they wish to live here."

That says it.

planting ground
The koran is where I learned what little I know.
A website that really brings it home is thereligionofpeace.com. As with any other web reference be sure to do your own homework, but this one will steer you in the right direction.

Religion of "peace" nonsense.
Christianity has a few screwballs in the backwoods of our country. That said, they are truly marginal. On the other hand muslim loonies seem to be in control of their fellows. Routinely we hear of muslim "charities" being fronts for raising and conveying money to terrorists, muslim governments financing terrorists. Their fellow travelers give them hundreds of millions of dollars to wage their cowardly war against us. On the other hand our "Christian" loonies have to rob banks for funds and are routinely hunted and punished, while muslim murderers are celebrated. Big difference.

Islam demands tolerance but extends none, routinely destroying and defaming the religious symbols of others. They have no respect for any but their own. As islam is currently constituted, it cannot and will not live in peace with others. Simply put islam is a menace as evil as Nazism but without the industrial and organizational skills or hygiene. If the West is to survive we at some point will have to go to full-out war with islam. They, like the Nazis and the communists will not allow others to live in peace except on their own terms.

We extended compassion and understanding to the Germans and Japanese AFTER WE KICKED THE CRAP OUT OF THEM, not before. Simply put, if we are to survive the islamic world is going to have to suffer greatly at our hand before genuine reform occurs. The sooner we get on with it the fewer people on both sides will have to die. It should be remembered that these bastards live only because of our forbearance. Imagine that for one week the U.S. and Israel were to become as ruthless as the islamists. There would be no Palestinian problem! If we cut loose with all of our might on the islamic world for just a short time, they would be suing for peace in a New York minute. We didn’t let the Nazis hide behind the skirts of their civilian populations, why do we allow the terrorists to do so?

Bronson
Well stated. So long as jihad violence furthers their goals without serious repercussion it will continue. When repercussions make the initiation of violence seem unsuccessful, it will cease. This is the way armed conflict has always worked. Those who can't see this have strange agendas and priorities that blind them to history and reality.

planting ground
Have you read the Koran, or just outtakes provided that support your thirst for genocide?

There are millions of Christians who don't take all parts of the Bible literally, just as there are millions of Muslims who don't take all parts of the Koran literally.

Now, have you read the PNAC letter of 1998? Perhaps you should enlighten yourself.

New Big Bang theory
In the beginning there was nothing. Then a muslim came along and blew it up!!!

utahnotmormon
There aren't millions of Christians strapping bombs to their kids.

Handy...thanks for reading. I can't say that getting high marks on a Command and Staff paper was one of my lofty goals (although I received full credit for my article on leadership), but I did, however have six or seven articles published in professional journals while I was on active duty.

Send me a link to your regularly published column, and I'll stop by every Saturday as a professional courtesy. MM

speaking of the koran
(I know I keep coming back to this but it is always a good idea to let them speak for themselves)

http://WWW.MEMRI.ORG

Special Report #11, Nov. 1, 2002 - Based on Koranic Verses, Interpretation and Traditions, Muslim Clerics State: 'The Jews Are The Descendants of Apes, Pigs and Other Animals.'


UTAH
Yes, I have; and putting words in my mouth and ascribing genocidal desires to my thought serves your argument very poorly. When did you become a mindreader? Did I advocate killing anyone? That sort of hysterical rhetoric will only lead to your not being taken seriously by anyone attempting a civil discourse on this site. Furthermore, you are taking a classic liberal tack, and projecting. Islamists openly talk of genocide. I certainly never have. Do you defend that?

Learn a new word
Taqiyya, or dissimulation, is a form of deception which Muslims use to conceal the truth.

So what else is new Mike.

ruthless
Loathing muslims for the actions of their radicals makes one an islamophobe as much as questioning the agenda of Israel makes one anti-semitic, yet both accusations are constantly made, for the same reason. Divert the debate.
I'm sure the vast majority of muslims take the koran's violence with as many grains of salt as most christians take the same from the bible. The difference is, of course, the violent are controlling the muslim societies. They control these societies through brute, ruthless murder, torture and intimidation. Until these societies fear the retaliation of the west, for the violence spread to our shores, more than they fear the radicals among them, IT WILL NOT STOP.

Yellow, Afraidy Cat, Coward?
Islamaphobe? Are you afraid to confront how you feel about somebody or a group of people because of their religion. Will you judge somebody on the basis of their professed belief system or their actions. Will the results look anything like this?

*March 2007,

At least five people were killed after a explosion during Friday prayers at an historic mosque in the capital of the southern Indian state of Andhra Pradesh, police said.
Another 22 people were injured at Mecca Masjid, the main mosque in Hyderabad.
Hyderabad has a large Muslim population and several historic mosques.
A bomb blast killed 32 people last year at a mosque in the western state of Maharashtra, an attack which police blamed on a banned Islamic students group trying to spark communal tension.
-Reuters


*March 2002,

Angry Hindus set fire to homes in a shantytown in western India on Friday, killing at least 27 Muslims as they slept, police said. The latest violence raises the death toll in the series of attacks on the religious minority to more than 100.
At least 76 people died in attacks Thursday, when Hindu rioters stormed a Muslim neighborhood and then kept firefighters away for hours, dragging out one former lawmaker and burning him alive. The attacks were revenge for a Muslim assault on a train.
In Friday's attack in Narora, on the outskirts of Ahmadabad, about 300 Hindus set fire to a Muslim-dominated shantytown in an industrial area at about 2 a.m., Deputy Police Commissioner P.B. Gondya told The Associated Press.
"We have recovered 27 charred bodies. The people were asleep when the incident happened," Gondya said. At least seven women and eight children were among the dead, he said. Another 42 people were hospitalized, some with burns over 80% of their bodies. Source: http://english.people.com.cn/200203/01/eng20020301_91222.shtml


*August 1990, LTTE Tamil Tiger Terrorists, the so called "Saviors" of the Tamil community in the world, butchered 103 innocent Muslims whilst they were praying in the grand Mosque of Kattankudiy in Batticaloa.


*May 2004, At least 200 Muslims killed in central Nigeria. Heavily armed militants from the Christian Tarok ethnic group attacked Fulanis in Yelwa, a farming community in the Shendam local government area of central Nigeria's Plateau state, 338 km east of the capital Abuja.

*Sept 2006 (AFP) - Suspected Tamil Tiger rebels killed 11 Muslim men in eastern Sri Lanka, where their mutilated bodies were found Monday, the defence ministry said.



or like this,

Sept. 11. Chicago, IL: Three hundred people shouting anti-Arab insults were turned back by police as they attempted to march toward a mosque southwest of the city. (Chicago Tribune, Sept. 13.)

. Sept. 12, Gary, IN: A Yemeni-American gas station owner survived an attack by a gunman who opened fire directly and fired more than 21 shots from a high-powered assault rifle. The owner was protected by one-inch thick glass. (The TimesOnline.-com, Sept. 13.)

. Sept. 12, Atlanta, GA: Four men attempted to stab a Sudanese man, telling him, "You killed our people in New York." (Atlanta Journal Constitution, Sept. 13.)

. Sept. 14, Tulsa, OK: Police investigated an attack on an Arab American who was beaten while leaving his apartment. Three people jumped on him, knocked him down, covered his eyes and beat him. After addressing him with an expletive, the men threatened, "We are going to cut you like you cut our people." (Tulsa World, Sept. 15.)

. Sept. 17, Meadville, PA: A man with a knife attacked a female high school student of Middle Eastern descent, yelling at her, "You're not an American. You don't belong here." (Associated Press, Sept. 25.)

. Sept. 18, Palmdale, CA: A note sent to a public high school said the World Trade Center attacks would be avenged in a "massacre" of Muslims, with the names of five students listed beneath. (Associated Press, Sept. 20.)

. Sept. 19, Lincoln Park, MI: Ali Al Mansouri, originally from Yemen, was shot 12 times in the back while fleeing from his attacker. The victim was asleep when his attacker broke in, dragged him out of bed and, according to his own police confession and his girlfriend's statements, threatened, "I'm going to kill you for what happened in New York and D.C." (WDIV Detroit, Sept. 21.)

TAMPA – The fire melted the mosque's photographs, burned the thick, green carpet down to bare concrete. A pile of singed prayer rugs sat on the floor. Bookcases along a wall held dozens of scorched Korans. Outside, investigators discovered a can of gasoline, said Hillsborough Fire Rescue spokesman Ray Yeakley. Someone deliberately set fire Thursday morning to the Islamic Education Center of Tampa, a mosque tucked into a neighborhood of tidy suburban homes in Town 'N Country, according to Hillsborough Fire Rescue and the FBI.
St Petersburg Times, 13 April 2007.


What
Divert the debate to what exactly?

Let's see you got Christians and Jews and other religions who spread their doctrine by reason and debate.

On the other side you got Muslims who spread their doctrine by murder, suicide, taiyiya and Dhimnitude?

It's 1938 all over again. But instead of Hitler, ToJo and Mussolini, we have OBL, Al-Sadir and AHMADI-NEJAD.

They don't hate Christians and Jews for their culture or their history. These Nazis hate us beacuse we are Kafir to them.

The moderates are silent because the Jihadis control the money, the weapons and the terror.
The Jihadis may make up 30% of a billion and a half of people. But they have the floor in the Muslim world.

Forget about being an Islamophob. I'd rather be called a Jihadi killer.

Nice post BTW apoplectic.

Maybe you skipped over this wanda
"Seems pale in comparison of the carnage that lies in the wake of motivated Muslims…twelve innocents dead in Munich, one innocent dead on the Achille Lauro and dumped into the sea, six dead and over 1000 injured in the first WTC bombing, twenty dead and 372 injured in the Khobar Towers bombings, over two hundred dead and 4000 injured in the US embassy bombings, seventeen dead in the USS Cole attack. Add in 2973 dead in the 9/11 attacks, 191 killed and 2050 injured in the Madrid bombings in 2004, Theo van Gogh murdered in the streets of Amsterdam 2004, fifty-two dead and 700 injured in the London bombings of July 2005, several killed and property damage worldwide in the aftermath of the Danish cartoon scandal of 2006. By my count that is nearly 3500 innocent people killed by those purporting to be believers in the religion “of peace.”

I would add the murder of Bill Buckley, Col Higgins, the bombing of the French and US Embassy and Marine barracks in Lebanon.

You Muslims asked for war now you got it.
You can Jihad all you want. It's time for an American Jihad against you.


Here's the real deal
Here's the article that my first post is from. Read it for yourself:

I quote:
"Taqiyya, or dissimulation, is a form of deception which Muslims use to conceal the truth. This Islamic concept to deceive an enemy (i.e., non-Muslim, infidel, kafir, etc.) is not only a common practice, but is considered a virtue among Muslims. It is used by all Muslims, not just Shias as Sunnis will assert.

Keep this in mind when you hear Muslims condemn ‘terrorism’ (make them define terrorism. It will rarely include Jihadis attacks against non-Muslims, especially those from the West). Keep this in mind when Muslims say Islam forbids the killing of innocents (non-Muslims are not considered innocent)."

Go on over to http://patdollard.com/2007/05/16/deception-and-islam/ and click on the link in the article.
Good short class on Muslim Deception. Or you can read wanda's post...a perfect example of Taqiyya.

Why nations need a common religion,
Islam is a religion of conquest, colonization, and reproduction. And I don't mean that in a bad way, it's a fine for a society continue itself. Maybe even the only way.

Now, outside our borders, the backwardness of Islam turns nations into corrupt little villas that can't compete with the West economically, militarily, technologically, or in any other way, other than reproduction and perseverance.

Within our borders, though, the niceties of Christendom and secularism put us a disadvantage competing with Islam. We frown on the subjugation of women, we try to minimize hostilities between groups, we generally care more about the individual than the tribe, we generally frown on violence. All severe handicaps when competing with and Old Testament-type religion.

You don't have to look further than the Amish, the Mormons, Catholic Irish, and the original Americans to see how a culture can multiply itself and take over. If Catholicism was as devout and warlike as Islam, the country would already be engaged in a bloody civil war.

This is less of a problem in America than it is in Europe, but if a country doesn't have a national religion, there's no reason to keep immigrants of a certain faith out of the country.

No protection, in other words.

divert the debate
to what you are saying, not what they are doing.
We're on the same side patriot. See how our society has been trained to take the defensive on just the mention of questioning Israel?
Don't lump me with dark messiah, for you would be mistaken. I just put America first and Israel somewhere down the list from there and question how much influence Israel wields in DC.
The subject of my above post is we have to instill more fear into the hearts of any muslims worth keeping by retaliations they understand to be retaliations. I don't think we've made any, yet.

Kuwull
"The subject of my above post is we have to instill more fear into the hearts of any muslims worth keeping by retaliations they understand to be retaliations. I don't think we've made any, yet."

I agree with that point. I also agree with Mr McBride's assertions.

However, I'm also pro-Israeli. Being pro-Israeli just ticks off the Jihadis to no end. And it just tickles me pink.

Hypocrisy and intellectual laziness
The author as usual reports half twisted truth, just like what FOXNews would report about democrats, for instance they would say: Democrats oppose eavesdropping on terrorists (rather than oppose eavesdropping on ALL Americans without warrant).


In spite of the murder, rape and the brutal colonization of MOST Muslim countries by Europe in the past century,In spite of the genocide committed by Hitler against millions of Jews, In spite of the genocide of the Christian Serbia against Muslim Bosnia, In sipte of the enslavement and murder of the Africans by christian jihadists, in spite of the systematic slaughter of the natives of this country (simply because they werent Christians), in spite of all the genocide committed against other countries from North Korea to Columbia to Chile to Panama to Vietnam to Iraq, in spite of the all "coups d'etat's" orchestrated by the US gov to remove elected leaders and install blood thirsty dictators, in spite of the unconditional and immoral support (monetary and militarly) of israel against the Palestians, in spite of the masscares committed by Israel against the Palestians from 1948 in Diar al yassin to the al aqsa mosque (while the palestinians were praying)to the Cana massacre, to the invasion Of Lebanon to the illegal settlements and the on going theft of palestian land to the destruction of their homes, in spite of all the above organized genocides, the author only mentioned the scattered terrorist acts that were in many ways the reactions of individuals (not states) to decades of terrorism and crimes committed by the US, ISRAEL, and CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS.

By the way all the terrorist acts committed by muslims were politically motivated, and had nothing to do with spreading Islam to the west like the neocons claim.

I dare you, all you neocons who hate Muslims and Islam, to write to your representatives to STOP all economic,diplomatic, educational, and touristry relations with Muslim countries.


If you want to call me liberal anti-American, Anti-Christian or anti-semite for speaking the truth and being rational then I'm proud to be one

patriot11c
I'm also pro-Israeli when it comes to them dealing with the Jihadis. I'm alarmed at how the world seems to restrain Israel in it's own defense against ruthless murder. Personally, I'd like to see the southern half of Lebanon turned into a no-human zone. At least a no-living-human zone. The northern Lebanese would rejoice.
I am pro-American when it comes to our dealings with the Israelis and want to see open debate as to how much of our foreign policy is for America first or Israel first.
As for our dealing with the jihadis, why do we own all this weaponry if we're not going to use it to our advantage?
If Tehran went missing tonight, we'd get a little more respect when we say we want to end this war.

DS
I'm sure there's a nice place for you to live in another country.
Why not take the opportunity, they're vanishing fast, what with the last French election. Maybe you and Johnny Depp can search together.

taqiyya
gee, DS, nice example.

eh?
Funny he should say that: I did this post on 23rd April: http://anagenesis.townhall.com/g/76399603-f503-44c8-b129-b55a2184d5f4

Lynne
Hope your having a good weekend.

wanda
What's happening in the SUDAN?

I caught this story
and all I can say is good luck with that. Real Americans know who to be suspicious of and who not to. They mount a PR campaign all they want but the bottom line is everyone knows who is committing acts of terrorism and why. Even the libtards do whether they want to admit it or not.

HAVE
Have you called your Senaters with your opinion of the Illegal Immigration Bill? Those dirty rotton Bast..ds are selling us down the river.

Lolo
Libtards think talking with someone that wants you dead works, it just gets you dead.

ThighMaster
"You can't reason or negotiate with a rabid dog. You take it out behind the woodshed and put a slug in it's brain before it hurts someone." exactly who do you want to shoot now? Geesh! Personally I try and keep my friends close and enemies closer. It worked with that last "great" threat communism if you recall.....

solutions
"You can't reason or negotiate with a rabid dog. You take it out behind the woodshed and put a slug in it's brain before it hurts someone."

When a house is infested with termites, you put a big tent over it and exterminate them.

Hal Donahue
I try and keep my friends close and enemies closer. It worked with that last "great" threat communism if you recall.....
Great, why don't you invite OBL over to your house for the night, see if he does.t cut your throat in the middle of the night.

sloo
You don't think the Soviets did? Or how about the mad dog terrorist outfits of the 70s and 80s. We have been fighting these idiots for years and years and will continue to for at least as long. I refuse to live in the fear and isolation you folks seem to want to.

Blame the Victim
Before too long we all will know the horror and anger that a rape victim feels as she sits in the courtroom and is blamed for being the victim. She had what the rapist wanted, and he got it. Well, guess what, we have what the Islamofacists want and they will try to get it. I like the idea of "termites".

Hal Donahue
How do you reason with someone who just wants you dead? Koran: You are either a muslim or infidel, convert or die.

Closer?
What are you talking about, keeping the Soviets closer? I was part of a weapon system so powerful and destructive that the Soviets never tried anything. With that firepower like that aimed at their head, and what was aimed back, I don't think anyone was close.

Utahnotmormon makes sense
I usually am at odds with Utahnm, but he/she is making good points here.

The goal of radical Islam is more to subjugate us than kill us. They willlet us keepour culture as long as we are subservient to them.

And most muslims are not radical.

And yes, they will have to deal with "profiling" (I prefer the term "categorizing") if they want to live here, just like all the rest of us.

The idea that Americans don't "profile" is unrealistic. You are profiled whenever you apply for anything; a job, a loan, insurance, admission to school. That's what an application is.

I know the law says that we're not supposed to discriminate in employment, housing, or acceptance of a loan or admission to school based on religion, but even our very enlightened law can't tell a man who he must not fear.

What I don't get is, why is this a big deal? What did we expect from the OIC, a condemnation of jihad?

Does anyone take the OIC seriously?


sloo
The Soviets wanted us dead too. Premier's speech at UN no less: "We will bury you.". Say what you want about the Koran but as "people of the book" Jews and Christians were protected in the not so distant past and most of their history. And I am fairly certain that I can find equally damning phrasology in the bibles or history of most of the other religions. Extreme religion is toxic no matter what denominations Islam, Christianity, etc.

Hammer
DOD had exchanges with them on an almost constant basis and talks were constsntly ongoing whether disarmament treaties or weapons treaties etc. There was seldom a period when communication was closed. The leaders even had hot lines to each other remember?? The soviets never tried anything???? the cuban missile crisis for a little thing ...... come on you aren't that old....

confused
I just cannot get this sense of fear and panic you folks want to live in. It is as if you doubt the very strengths of our society and want to cower in isolation or lash out in military frustration. All we have to do is reunite as a people, rebuild our military and rejoin our allies. We have do far more in the past. But cower in panic and frustration like you folks advocate is conterproductive and we as a people are capable of far more

Hal Donahue
I don't see Christians or Jews straping bombs to their kids blowing up pizza parlors.
"people of the book" , are yopu muslim? Please tell me about the non-condemnation of 9/11 from the muslin community. In muslim countries, they were dancing in the streets, burning American flags.

Hal Donahue
"rejoin our allies" , you mean Germany, France, and Russia? All taking money from Saddam. You make no sense.

OIC
Let them all go back to their own Arab country where it is nice and safe for them and their children.If they dare hit us again they may have something to cry about.Enough is enough from OIC, CAIR and these other arrogant creeps who keep showing up on OUR TV'S bitching about US. They are the terrorists.

sloo
Actually the Jews did blow up pizza parlors and the like when the fought the British. And the IRA never hesitated to do to the same. People of the book was how Muhammad referred to the christians and the jews and singled them out for protection. No I am not a Muslim. I make no excuses for their celebration of 9/11. What they feel is our blind support of Israel over Palestinians has poisoned the well so badly their reaction hardly surprised me. I don't actually think it did most other folks either. FYI it is a long way from understanding the reaction to approving of it

Lynne
Sorry of my word choice inslted you any insult was not intended.

"Agreed, "...reunite as a people" is probably the first and most important step. But, when we have the democratic party doing everything in its power to discredit the admin., and the WOT, then it's a little difficult to "reunite." Now see I see it extremely differently. I see a deluded and incompetant president refusing to acknowledge reality and currently in the process of disarmimng the country. Few if any of our units are fully trained or equipped outside of theater. This administration is discredited the last election proved that. Now compromise is necessary something this president is incapable of. Finally, the Democrats are very concerned with the WOT and the fact that it has been pushed to the back burner by the war in Iraq.

Papa
"Let them all go back to their own Arab country where it is nice and safe for them and their children.If they dare hit us again they may have something to cry about." Oh really? How can you saw that when Osama et. al. are still free and growing stronger? Come on we let him go

Hal Donahue
At times, I also have problems with Israel, but they during the last couple of tries for peace, gave in to almost all there demands, it wasn't enough. Palestinians continued to provoke situations, Isreal had no choice, but to respond.
PLEASE enlightent me, what the h.ll is this PEOPLE OF THE BOOK you keep taking about, I'll bite, O want to see how much fact or fiction you arer throwing out.

Hal Donahue
Just googled
Just tolerate Jews and Christians, so I am still an infidel.

sloo
The book is the Bible from which the Koran came out of. The christians and jews were not to be forced converted and actually were treated quite well in the middle east having their own courts etc. Jews frequently fled to the Muslims when christian Europeans were having jewish pograms.

As far as Israel and the Palistinians go I an very close to the position a pox on both their houses

sloo
but at least tolerated because of the book or were. Then thier crazy preachers got control.... So now we have to clean up the mess which we largely allowed to happen

Lynne
This battle is with terrorists not religion. The IRA running round the world training every right and left wing terorist outfit they could find had little to do with christianity it was about control thru force not much else

Hal
I am older than you think. And I remember my neighbor digging a bomb shelter in his yard when Nikki K. put those missiles on Castro's porch. I remember my ship being ordered to sea in '73, and the fear that we might really shoot those nuc's. Close or far, those tactics won't work with the Islamofacists. They will kill us or themselves just because they think their god will reward them. Remember that in WW2 the Japanese indoctrinated about 3 generations of their young. It is well documented that an invasion of the main islands would have been catastrophic. They would have fought to the last person. We are there again. But this time the enemy is nationalized in about 14 countries and scattered over the rest of the world.

Maybe OIC can explain
In almost all countries with Muslim majority, the rule is by hate and fear (rather than actual laws).

Also, Muslims have a record of slaughtering or attempting to force conversion of people wherever they have ruled, and murdering even their own followers:
(1) Between 1066 and 1966, five times more Muslims were killed in war by other Muslims than by all other religions combined.
(2) The list of Muslim-against-Muslim genocides since 1966 is hardly small: Bangladesh (2.3 million Bengalis killed by Punjabis/muhajirs), Pakistan (against Bugtis/Marris, Qadianis, as well as Sindhis and even muhajirs by Punjabis), Sudan (Darfur ring a bell), Iraq (against Kurds, Marsh Arabs, ...), ...never have heard this issue addressed by OIC
(3) More Muslims have been killed in riots in KARACHI ALONE since 1985 than in all communal violence (including terrorist-related in Jammu/Kashmir state) in India since 1951.

A religion which preaches hate against those NOT belonging to it...to no surprise shows none to its own!

Hammer
I know you are older than I and remember. But that too passed and while we are distracted in Iraq those "enemy is nationalized in about 14 countries and scattered over the rest of the world." are growing stronger not weaker. I really do believe that the reason we have not been attacked is because Bush's behavior is exactly what the terrorists wanted. And we did occupy Japan and Germany with over whelming force and it was the single most successful occupation in modern history.

A dirty little secret
The 'suppression' of the Palestinians - and if only that problem was solved, all would be well crap - is a red herring if there ever was one! The Palestinian matter is just another excuse for this piece of totalitarian blackmail that is being played out here. The dirty little secret of the Arab world is, that they hate the Palestinians almost as much as they hate the Jews.

Lynne
SO WHAT? They are using their version the same as the IRA used catholicism for theirs. I doesn't matter what the use they are still terrorists and nothing really new. There is no need to panic, there is no need to live in fear. We just hunt them down and destroy them using every tool in our arsnal. They are no where near the threat represented by the communists and as a matter of fact what I read here often reminds me of the right wing comments about communism.

Huh?
Lynne:

If the terrorists are motivated by their religion, what makes them radicals?

Hal Donahue:

What 'version' of Islam are the terrorists using, exactly?

PRCS
What 'version' of Islam are the terrorists using, exactly? Actually it depends on the group but Lynn and I were discussing the extreme fundementalist version of Al Q and the Taliban I believe

Hal Donahue
Lynne
SO WHAT?
Great answer.
Nobody is paniced, I certianly will not live in fear, but I am aware. If I see something that doesn't look normal, I will pay attension.

Hal Donahue
So now we have to clean up the mess which we largely allowed to happen.
Is it possible, this has been going on since the crusades?
Sad part about this is if there wasn't oil in the ME, the whole place would be a glass parking lot.

sloo
"Nobody is paniced, I certianly will not live in fear, but I am aware. If I see something that doesn't look normal, I will pay attension. " Sure sounds to me like panic I am hearing. But your attitude is correct you would be a fool to not pay attention

Hal
On an earlier post I commented, that muslim community didn't condenm 9/11, this tells me either they condone what happened or are afraid of speaking out, both situations puts a bad light on Islam.

ThighMaster
Nope the Soviets were willing to incinerate the whole world. Give me the kid with the bomb any day. Also, the suicide bomber came about because it was the only way to penetrate increasingly effective security. FYI: many aircrews had "one way" missions in the event of all out war.

This is a totally different enemy but a lot less lethal one and very much like all the petty opponants we have dealt with since the shores of Tripoli. The Israeli's tried that assination ploy. Guess what they killed the visible moderates and never saw the invisible extremists until they were in power. Military is not the only answer. Better than shoot an Imam laugh at him it is a far worse fate.
Only half the precs and feeling much better thank you

ThighMaster
"is wahaabism I believe." only the Sunni version there is no shortage of extremist preachers

sloo
at 4:09 I said: I make no excuses for their celebration of 9/11. What they feel is our blind support of Israel over Palestinians has poisoned the well so badly their reaction hardly surprised me. I don't actually think it did most other folks either. FYI it is a long way from understanding the reaction to approving of it"

ThighMaster/sloo
Sadly I doubt you will see that. As long as we are seen to blindly support Israel and what they see as its oppression of palistinians. Think the IRA and US Irish Catholics and the Brits. It has gone long past any rationality.

Hal Donahue
I'm talking about muslims in America, are they Americans first or muslims believing we are infidels? As ThighMaster points out, We have never had a pro-american rally in any muslim community. If they thought they could get away with it, they might burn American flags in Michigan.

Hal Donahue
If you believe that it is so engrained in the muslims in America, then they are a danger to American society and must be dealt with, deportation back to the ME.

Hal
Why do you want all this tolerance for people that hate you? Don't get it wrong, they do hate you. You should take some time and do some actual research into Islam. Im not talking about the brochures sponsored by an American-Islam feel good counsel either. Read the Koran, they are instructed to spread Islam by the sword, and to kill non conformists. They have those that fake the funk and act as peaceful front runners and they have extremist, they all work for the same cause though.

sloo
They are Americans but do not agree with everything the ccountry does. Like US jews who have been caught spying on the US for Israel. A danger perhaps slightly but they do have a right to disagree with our policy. To the best of my knowledge most did not dance in the streets here

ThighMaster
This hard core ally was caught spying on us, But they are our ally.

Solo610
"Why do you want all this tolerance for people that hate you? Don't get it wrong, they do hate you. You should take some time and do some actual research into Islam." Not all do hate me and while I have not studied Islam in depth I do know a bit abhout it and have lived and traveled among them. They are no better or worse than the christians I have met.

Hal Donahue
I agree, I didn't hear of any dancing in the streets, I just wanted them to condenm 9/11.

Hal
You cannot lay at the feet of Christ, the mistakes of men. Don't look at a couple of people professing to be Christians and draw the conclusion that that is what a Christian is. Look at Christ and what He did. Look at what he taught.

In Christianity God sent His son to die for you
In Islam God wants you to die for his son.

Read the Bible, God NEVER tells you to force Him on anyone. The Koran explicitly tells you to do just that.

Hal Donahue
I know of no Christian advocating strapping a bomb to their kid.

ThighMaster
Pollard- American giving intel to the Isreali Gov. Convicted for spying.

Thighmaster
I agree with you. We should not hurt anyone, but we need to adopt tougher policies to protect ourselves. Part of that is knowing and understanding that Islam does not have quite as innocent an agenda as they try to display in our country. Im sure you friend is a fine person, i would not have a problem with him either. IMO being a good friend is a good testimony if you are a Christian.

ThighMaster
I'm on your sida on almost eveything you have posted.

sida
oops- side

Hmm
There seems to be a lot of rednecks on here!

sloo
"I know of no Christian advocating strapping a bomb to their kid." Muslim response: we don't have to we have the aircraft.

sloo
"If they preach hate then they have to go one way or another." Does this apply to Christians too?

CKoch
I'm a good old boy

Lynne
Thank I have been to some. I will review tomorrow or Monday

sloo
"I know of no Christian advocating strapping a bomb to their kid."

No, but many Christians send their children off to fight in this war against terror (Muslims)... And they all but strap bombs to themselves fighting against Islam..

The enemy
>this time the enemy is nationalized in about 14 countries and scattered over the rest of the world<

So, your definition of the enemy is Muslims? And your definition of terrorist is probably Muslim as well.

That kind of thinking is geo-political suicide. This country has built alliances with numerous Muslim-dominated nations, and many of these have radical contingencies that are empowered by our nation making wholesale categorizations of them as the enemy and terrorists.

It's fine to point out evil where it exists and attempt to lay foundations that allow for the radical contingencies of Islam to be marginalized and destroyed. That will never happen if we blindly state all Muslims are enemies and terrorists.

Hal Donahue
Have you read the Bilble lately? Jesus said Love your nieghber. A true christian doesn't preach hate.

CKoch
You said the magic word, WAR. The muslims strap bombs on kids to kill innocent people.

sloo
I have and I believe you are correct about the bible then I go and listen to the likes of Dobson, Robertson, Falwell etc and LOVE is far down their agenda

I try not to slam any religion. All I know is that Islam in practise is not a bad or evil any more than than christianity etc. this is a terrorist issue NOT a religion issue

Crazy
How do you compare a christian missionary to a Mulsim telling to to convert or die. Being a Christian is free choice.

Dobson,
I have listened to DOBSON you are full of it.

When the religion breeds terror
then its an issue of both don't you think?

Again you are judging Christianity by the likes of men, judge it by Christ and the Bible.

Hal Donahue
Robertson, I don't watch him, but he usually reports things the MSM won't.

ThighMaster
My comments were in response to Hammer - 5:27 PM, and was his quote.

It had nothing to do with anything you wrote.

ThighMaster
I agree.

Lynne
Hal has been defending muslims all day, won't do any good. It's the same old U.S. support of Isreal for the Muslim hate for us.
I'm out of here.

ThighMaster
I wonder what Hal would do if he's given the choice of convert or die. Good night all.

I will disagree with this statement
>When the driving force behind the terrorist's ideolgy is his religion,<

The driving force behind Al Qaeda's ideology is not religion, but politics.

Much of the Al Qaeda hierarchy, including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, are notorious drinkers and womanizers, and several of the 9/11 hijackers spent their final night in a strip club, boozing it up and paying for lap dances.

All confirmed interviews from Bin Laden are more politically motivated than religious, even when he makes reference to the sacred holy ground of the Arabian Penninsula it is in response to US military presence there, as opposed to Christian oil company executives.

Disagree if you want

Much of the Al Qaeda hierarchy, including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, are notorious drinkers and womanizers, and several of the 9/11 hijackers spent their final night in a strip club, boozing it up and paying for lap dances.

All confirmed interviews from Bin Laden are more politically motivated than religious, even when he makes reference to the sacred holy ground of the Arabian Penninsula it is in response to US military presence there, as opposed to Christian oil company executives.

It is religiously motivated. In the same way Ted Haggard lived by two standards so do they. Saying they went to a strip club so they must not be true muslims is akin to saying that because i told a lie two weeks ago im not a Christian. That does not hold water, humans are not perfect.

Why do you suppose he calls it holy ground? Maybe because it has something to do with religion? He does not want infidels on his "holy ground"?

Solo610
"When the religion breeds terror
then its an issue of both don't you think?

Again you are judging Christianity by the likes of men, judge it by Christ and the Bible." the same should apply to all religions then

Not according to Bin Laden
>He does not want infidels on his "holy ground"?<

You're putting words in Bin Laden's mouth. He does not want the US military there. Has he ever said anything about not wanting infidels at the tourist mecca of Dubai?

Hal
It does in fact apply to all religions. Great point! That is why i READ through the Koran on my own before i said anything. After that reading and two courses, plus personal study, i can say with confidence that Islam breeds terrorist.

Lynne
video I can't wait LOL

But then
Now that Halliburton is moving its world headquarters to Dubai, Bin Laden might have a problem with that.

utahnotmormon
It is strange to me that you would offer even a hint of defense for this monster, whatever though.

Im not putting words in his mouth, he said "The infidels will be driven from the land". He didn't say U.S. Military, even if you think he was implying that. Infidel, by Muslim standards, are all those who are not Muslims.

Solo610
and how does christianity breed them? These guys are no different than the IRA or the others don't glorify them. Listen this has little to do about religion and everything about power

ThighMaster
You've succeeded in dumbing down a rather complicated issue. Politcs plays the major role in this conflict. Why do you think Muslims kill Muslims more than infidels?

IRA?
Your missing the point... What does Jesus say? What does the Bible say?

Now what does Allah, Muhammad and the Koran say?

Its not what the IRA did or what the hijackers who flew into the towers did, what DOES THEIR RELIGION teach? That is the key....

Because
ThighMaster
You've succeeded in dumbing down a rather complicated issue. Politcs plays the major role in this conflict. Why do you think Muslims kill Muslims more than infidels?

Their religion breeds that ?

What defense?
>It is strange to me that you would offer even a hint of defense for this monster, whatever though<

You are making thigs up out of thin air. We're discussing motivation, religious and political.

Are you kidding?

No..im not
You never responded on the comments about his motivation being religious.

Solo610
The christian bible okays genocide, slaughter of civilians, slavery shall I go on?

The IRA fought for Christianity and did abysmal things in the "name of god" it is all nonsense. These groups are about power not religion

Look
Saying that his motivations are not religious, but political, offers a defense of muslims worldwide. Say what you will, but you do not understand Islam if you don't see the connection.

Solo610
I put to you that you may understand what is written not what is practised

Hal?
Example examples examples.....Where ? What verse?

Your missing it again. Im not talking about the IRA or Bin Laden.. Im talking to you about the Koran and the Bible. What breeds terrorism and why? It is NOT religion in general, its the specific religion. You seem content to blame each religion for the actions of the men who claim to be of one or another. Its not about that. Look at the teachings of their books!

Versions of Islam
Unlike the Bible, there is only one version of Qur'an; as such, there is only one version of Islam.

There is no 'kinder and gentler' version of Qur'an (God's literal word) for 'moderate' Muslims.

Wahabbism is not a version of Islam. It is merely the literal acceptance of Qur'an and hadith; as Muhammad intended it.

Kareem Abdul Jabar's copy of Qur'an reads the same as Usama bin Laden's.

Moderate Muslims are like Catholics who use artificial birth control methods; each knows what their respective faiths require of them--and neither is in full compliance with them.

Islam
Islam is a virus and Arabs are carriers. The Black Death is back.

Solo610
"Wahabbism is not a version of Islam. It is merely the literal acceptance of Qur'an and hadith; as Muhammad intended it." Exactly akin to the fundementalists who support the terroist shootings of medical people at clinics. Most Muslims and I put to you most christians fall into the "Moderate Muslims are like Catholics who use artificial birth control methods; each knows what their respective faiths require of them--and neither is in full compliance with them." file if you will. Is one more violient than the other I don't think so my god look at the inquisition etc. All the religions we are talking about here come from the same source: jews, add a book christian, add a book Muslim, add a book morman. Is the entire tree rotten? I am beginning to think so

You're right
I don't understand Islam, and I doubt few weterners do.
However, it is disingenuous to lump it all into a general pot of Islam. For instance, Assad in Syria has banned the Muslim Brotherhood. Would that be for political or religious reasons?

When the CIA recruited Bin Laden to fight the Russians in Afghanistan, did Bin Laden have a problem working with infidels? Was his motivation religious or politcal? I would admit to being both, but the issue was to drive out the Russians.

Nite all
Thank you and be well

Wrong
Exactly akin to the fundementalists who support the terroist shootings of medical people at clinics.

That statement demonstrates your gross ignorance about Islam, and your stupid motive.

P.S.

Thighmaster,

Sunni and Shi'a are the two legitimate Islamic sects.

There is no 'Khurd' sect. The Kurds are an ethnic group; most of whom are Sunni and Shi'a Muslims.

It occurs to me
the Constitution prohibits the "establishment" of any one religion as that of the state, but the government prohibits animal sacrifice and such in the name of religion. Likewise, it might be construed from the writings of the Koran that the tenets of Islam present a clear danger to the sovereignty of our nation. The United States of America could Constitutionally, legally outlaw Islam, the practice thereof, the establishment of any and all Mosques or places of worship of islamic nature on any and all of these United States and all her territories. Further, I believe such a move could withstand any and all challenges right up to and including the Supreme Court. I would hope it never comes to that, but I believe if things continue to decline, there might be no other option some day in our future. My main fear is that people like Christopher Hitchens will try to use such a move to eliminate ALL religions, . . a very dangerous side to the equation. Please read "The Victory of Reason" by Rodney Stark, and you will understand that fear.

Do Muslims Support Israel?
Speaking of the Kurds, most people don't realize that the autonomous government of Iraqi Kurdistan recognizes and supports Israel. Israeli money is being invested in Kurdistan, and rumor has it that PJAK, the Kurdish Iranian rebel group, receives clandestine support from Israel.

USC MSA
Thighmaster,

No problem. And every time you hear the phrase 'Sunni, Shi'a and Kurd', you'll be the wiser.

Bakedbones:

Here's what the University of Southern California Muslim Student Association says about Islam:

"Islam is the name of a way of life which the Creator wants us to follow. We avoid the word religion because in many non-Islamic societies, there is a separation of "religion and state." This separation is not recognized at all in Islam: the Creator is very much concerned with all that we do, including the political, social, economic, and other aspects of our society. Hence, Islam is a complete way of life."

Technically, Islam is a theocracy. Too bad our elected 'representatives' can't grasp the concept.

Solo610
New Testament: 9:12-15

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

34- Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—" KJV-Matthew10

"He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21)


According to the following verses, the Bible would be the only scripture that contains a God-approved act of suicide in order to kill enemy civilians (Judges 16:26-30).


16:26-And Samson said unto the lad that held him by the hand, Suffer me that I may feel the pillars whereupon the house standeth, that I may lean upon them.

16:27-Now the house was full of men and women; and all the lords of the Philistines were there; and there were upon the roof about three thousand men and women, that beheld while Samson made sport.

16:28-And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.

16:29-And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left.

16:30-And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life


Kill All Unbelievers
"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..." (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;" (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword." (Deuteronomy 13:15)


"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ." (I Samuel 15:2-3)

Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:16-18)

Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died." (Judges 4:21)

Raping And Killing

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)

And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and donkey, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21)

Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place." (Deuteronomy 12:2-3)


And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain." (Deuteronomy 2:34)

"And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Hesbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities we took for a prey to ourselves." (Deuteronomy 3:6-7)

"If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;" (Deuteronomy 22:22)

"Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 22:24)


And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:10-11)


And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." (Leviticus 21:9)


When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)


"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." (Leviticus 12:2)

"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5)

woman inferiority


But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)


"Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." (Revelation 2:22-23)

Kill The Witches!

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." (Exodus 22:18-20)

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." (Luke 19:27)


describes Jews as Serpent

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:33)

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)


Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids." (Leviticus 25:44 , KJV)

"As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may aquire male and female slaves." (Leviticus 25:44,)


Zephaniah 2:12-15

"You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist



Ezekiel 9:5-7

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all - old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."



Isaiah 13:15-18

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.



I will be around if you need more..





Muslims must kill out of shame
Any follower of a pedophile, a murderer, a slaver, a liar, a thief, a cheat or a sodomizer must kill. The horrible shame and disgrace associated with islam is enough to make anyone practicing it to kill anyone that knows them.

ThighMaster
he/she asked for verses from the bible..and i provided them.

Wow Cyt
You took those verses so far out of context. You obviously have zero Biblical knowledge. I will explain them when i get back, i have some errands to run.

USC MSA
Thighmaster,

The short answer to your question is 'no'.

Here's a link to the USC MSA website:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/

And here's a little more info from that site:

"Prophet Muhammad (saas) was the final Messenger of Allah to humanity, and therefore the Qur'an is the last Message which Allah has sent to us. Its predecessors such as the Torah, Psalms, and Gospels have all been superceded."

You stated:

"The bible and the Quran were written by men."

That's not what Muslims believe. Here's a little more from the USC MSA website:

"The Qur'an is one leg of two which form the basis of Islam. The second leg is the Sunnah of the Prophet (saas). What makes the Qur'an different from the Sunnah is primarily its form. Unlike the Sunnah, the Qur'an is quite literally the Word of Allah, whereas the Sunnah was inspired by Allah but the wording and actions are the Prophet's. The Qur'an has not been expressed using any human's words. Its wording is letter for letter fixed by no one but Allah."

Here's are two good websites to visit for further info:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/



Solo610
I will be waiting..I did my home work too. Conversely, you must be a scholar in islam with all the historical context of the koranic verses , right?? so when people quote the verses from the koran, they are not out of context.On the other hand, when you quote the bible it must be out of context.

PRCS
providing jihadwatch for info about islam is like luring somebody to an atheist website to learn about Christianity. fair and balanced.lol

Really?
Well cyt,

I have learned a great deal about Islam from each of those sites.

A study of Islam doesn't need to be fair and balanced--merely factual.

Now, before you leap, which specific posts by either Robert or Hugh do you find erroneous?

Perhaps you'd rather argue the veracity of Muslim students at USC?

PRCS
they are both inconsistent. They talk about violence in the koran while they overlook much more violent verses from the bible.

Their posts could be easily refuted by muslims when historical context are provided with the correct translation.

spenser provide erroneous hadith without refrences.

Spencer supports preconceived notions of Islam through selection bias. He doesnt have any training in Islamic studies whatsoever. He has M.A. degree in the field of early Christianity.He takes some of the most radical Muslim interpretations and then use them to characterize all Muslims or what he implies is the real Islam.

His rants is not peer-reviewed and never published by any press university.

I knew you'd leap
Because you're an idiot.

and I knew you'd
resort to name calling because you couldnt handle it.

Cyt
"cyt writes: Saturday, May, 19, 2007 11:46 PM
Solo610
I will be waiting..I did my home work too. Conversely, you must be a scholar in islam with all the historical context of the koranic verses , right?? so when people quote the verses from the koran, they are not out of context.On the other hand, when you quote the bible it must be out of context."

Before you open your mouth you should find out, you just hope that i don't have a degree in comparative religions. You did not do any homework, or you would know that the Koran instructs them to spread Islam by the sword, and to kill non believers. You would also know that you cannot just pick one verse of the Koran or Bible and assume you know what it means. It has to be read in context. Stop going to google to find your answers, you are out of your league and lost.

NO TO MUSLIM IMMIGRATION
Islam is a political force at odds with western values. When will we demand our government to stop immigration from Muslim countries whose presence on our soil endangers us all? Please call or write your legislators!

libs and islam
anything that leads to socialism is fine and dandy with libs. They hate what america stands for. They think borders are stupid and all these wetbacks should be welcomed and given everything the rest of us work for, They refuse to believe the threat of islam. They think b ecause there has been little violence here that proves muslims can be trusted. The sleeper cells are here and merely waiting for the signal to start here what they have done everywhere else. So it takes 10-20years muslims don't look at time as we do. That they look back centuries shows they have the patience to wait us out. The danger will come in the future and by the time the west wakes up it will be too late. The khalid clown was educated here, spent years living amongst us and we see how he turned out. Unless the america wakes up and looks down the road there will be no america. Congress has bankrupted the system, allowed immigrants to break our laws with inpunity and now wants to reward them with citizenship and refuses to see the bloodcult ME as a threat to the world. It shows why a lack of leadership wsill doom this country. The dims don't need to wait until 2008 to get their agenda in place. The pressident by not standing up to the dims has reliquished his presidency. He is occupying a space but is no longer doing the job. Meanwhile McCain joins forces with Kennedy and we are assured there is nothing to worry about. Dark days lie ahead for america but by then all the current players will be long gone and there arfe no assurances that the next generation has to will to ever rebuild this great nation and like others before us, we will not have been defeated from the outside but from within by those too lazy or cowardly to defend what this country stands for. Bush actually may have one lastg unintended consequence from his presidentcy. He will replace Carter from being the worst president who sold out america and its values and bush will assume that pitiful mantle.

Solo610..yep, i thought so

you said: "I will explain them when i get back, i have some errands to run".

whats the matter?? where is the explanation you promised?? I'm Still waiting... . Im sure with your degree in comparative religions it shouldnt be a problem.

ok
I will be back late this afternoon to check on your response.

Cyt
First, how about you use a KJV Bible, it is the closest you will get to the Greek/Hebrew versions with the only possible exception being a Geneva.

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."

This is end times prophecy and is symbolic. It does not concern the actions of belivers right now. In fact your first four verses or so come from Revelation. To even attempt to explain Revelation here would take longer than i have to respond. Lets move on to some more relevant verses.


For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—" KJV-Matthew10

This means exactly what it says. When my wife turned to Christ her family did not understand and pretty much wrote her off. I wonder why? Here Christ tells us that people will turn their backs on you simply for receiving Him. She could have told them she was gay and got a far more positive response than telling them she got saved.

"He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21)

Why don't you actually take the time and read this in context. It comes from Mathhew 15:4. Jesus was using it for example. Obviously you cut and pasted a bunch of verses from somewhere with no clue as to what context they were used in. Here let me help you...

1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?


Wow... Look i don't have time nor the space for the next 1000 verses you cut and pasted. Especially since you did not have the intellectual honesty to look them up yourself, read them in context and them question them. YOu posted about 20 verses based on Old Testament law. How about you go one or two verses at a time and i will take the time to set you straight. If you don't have the time for that then neither do i.

Last: I did not say i had a degree in CR, i said you hope that i don't. IOW you don't know me but you assume a lot. I don't know you, but based you posts i know that you did not do any reading on your own. If you did, a good class in reading comprehension would help.









Thighmaster and the witnesses
Here's a quick way to make sure the witnesses vacate your property quickly, and never come back. Just answer the door nekkid and invite em in for a beer. They can't get gone quick enough ;)
Taproot

cyt

If the verses you quoted bother you so much maybe you should make certain that you are on the side of He who rides that white horse.

islamaphob
we have good reason to be islamaphobs,i dont recall the israelis destroying the twin towers,anybody that believes that there will be 70 virgins waiting for you in heaven if you die as a suicide bomber,i dont know what bible they are reading but it aint hte right one

cyt
All of the passages you quote from the old testament were specific instructions for specific cities or nations. When it was over, it was over. the new testament passages when taken in cotext say something far different than you put forth.
The koran on the otherhand has a non ending set of instructions to lie,rape kill and subjugate anyone that does not follow their way.
Revelation talks about actions that GOD will take. not men. When you spout this kind of nonsense it just shows that you are picking the parts that say what you want and leaving the context out.
If I say "kill them all" during a discussion about the ants in my kitchen. Then you go tellvpeople that I'v just said kill them all where is the context for your remark?
The difference between the koran and the Bible is that the Bilbe teaches love and forgiveness to it's followers. thye koran teaches subjugation and dominance.
Context is the heart of the matter.
Read my post from May 16 at 0654.

Dan874
So according to your logic violent biblical verses are taken out of context, but the koranic ones are not. why is that??

Actually i read both interpretations and I find the koranic verses much more convincing than the biblical ones.

I agree with you on thing though, context is the heart of the matter.

I posted 5 consecutive verses from the judges(26-30) which advocates suicide in order to kill enemy civilains.

Show me one verse from the koran that advocates slavery, killing children and babies or racism.

The bible does.see the above verses.

try to read about Islam from other sites than spencer and pipes, you may learn something other than hatred and violence against Muslims.

The strenght of prejudice is amazing.Though assailed by reason, argument and revelation, it often remains as deeply rooted and vigorous as ever. lighten up.

Remember, there are two sides of the same story.

Muslims and Terror
Whenever there is a comment that there are Muslim terrorists someone has to bring up alleged bad acts of Christians or Jews in the past. We need to deal with what is happening now and not what someone did in the past. The suicide murderers now are Muslims. The 9/11 murderers were Muslims.

Brujo Blanco
Thats fine. Muslim terrorists do exist and whenever they commit their heinous acts Christianity and judaism shoudnt be brought up to the equation. It wouldnt make any sense.

However, it becomes another issue when you lump all Muslims together or blame Islam for the terrorists acts.

Cyt
Here are a couple of examples. Feel free to look then up oh your own to see that the context is indeed current instructions and not target specific. While I amnot trying to say that ALL muslims are bad people, we should keepin mid that this religion is nowhere near as peaceful and benign as CAIR and other's would try to have us believe.
In the 100 years there may have been a handfulof atrocities commited by men claiming they were Christians doing God's will, but When compared to the number doing Allah's will the number is statistically zero.
008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

008.013
YUSUFALI: This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.
PICKTHAL: That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.
SHAKIR: This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Messenger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Messenger-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

008.014
YUSUFALI: Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire."
PICKTHAL: That (is the award), so taste it, and (know) that for disbelievers is the torment of the Fire.
SHAKIR: This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow
the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledgment
of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."
Qur'an, Sura 9:29

Dan874
First off, The Koran always refers to Mecca pagans as idolators and ugrateful, who are characterized by kufr or ingratitude. nowadys the word change to" unbelievers" by muslims and non-muslims alike and more recently to "infidels'( a word that doesnt exist in Islam) by the west. Christians and jews are considered by Islam believers.

The term "holy war" is from the time of the Crusades and originated in Europe as a rallying cry against the Muslims in Jerusalem. Jihad is an Arabic word meaning struggle, but in the context of many verses in the Koran, it carries the meaning of military struggle, or war.

As you see according to the koran, God gradually introduced the obligation of military struggle to the Muslim community at the time of Muhammad. The FIRST verse ever revealed in that connection is as follows (translation),

[22:39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;

This verse lays down the precondition for all war in Islam: there must exist certain oppressive conditions on the people. In Islam God unequivocally orders people to fight oppression and persecution, even at the expense of bloodshed as the following verse shows . just like what the US is doing in Iraq fighting a dictator.

Now lets dissect those verses you mentioned one by one, shall we.
008.012

YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."


This is about the Battle of Badr - not just some daily affair. these verses were revealed during the first year of immigration when the Muslims were under *threat of extinction* by invasion from Makkah. in this particular event the number of the muslims were only 300 compared to 1000 on the other side. they were asked not to let themselves be oppressed and they will get help from God. The order was given to the angels to carry the killing in a war.

if you look to the following verse right after that, it shows the reason why they are fighting:

8.13: ( revealed in Madinah)

This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Messenger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Messenger-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting evil.

They were not just asked to kill people, its a battle with the pagans who oppressed them. its normal in a war to aim to kill.


Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."
Qur'an, Sura 9:29

To begin , let us expose some Christian double standard when dealing with their own bible. why do they assume that the verse was referring to a physical fight? Fighting those who do not believe in Islam can be done in many other ways . fight in this context could mean argument, "you refute someone lies by preaching to him the word of God". However when dealing with their own verse, they quickely come to another conclusion

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword

Christians would argue that this verse doesn't actually refer to physical sword, rather it is metaphorical language referring to the tongue, with your tongue you shall spread the truth and crush the lies that have been propagated by satan.

Therefore I must ask why don't Christians leave this interpretation open to the Quran as well? Why do they immediately assume that Surah 9:29 must ONLY refer to physical altercation?


Now let us examine the historical context of this verse, since many Christians never want to take anything into context, they just quote and cry terrorism. We shall quote Maududi's excellent commentary of the verse's background and context:

I found this interpretation Muslim scholar on line :

Background

Now let us consider the historical background of the Surah. The series of events that have been discussed in this Surah took place after the Peace Treaty of Hudaibiyah.

By that time, one-third of Arabia had come under the sway of Islam which had established itself as a powerful, well organized and civilized Islamic State. This Treaty afforded further opportunities to Islam to spread its influence in the comparatively peaceful atmosphere created by it. After this Treaty, two events took place, which led to very important results:

Conquest of Arabia

The first was the Conquest of Arabia. The Holy Prophet was able to send missions among different clans for the propagation of Islam. The result was that during the short period of two years, it became such a great power that it made the old order of ignorance' feel helpless before it. So much so that the zealous elements from among the Quraish were so exasperated that they broke the Treaty in order to encounter Islam in a decisive combat. But the Holy Prophet took prompt action after the breach so as not to allow them any opportunity to gather enough force for this. He made a sudden invasion on Makkah in the month of Ramadan in A. H. 8 and conquered it. Though this conquest broke the backbone of the order of ignorance, it made still another attack on Islam in the battle-field of Hunain, which proved to be its death-knell. The clans of Hawazin Thaqif, Naur, Jushm and others gathered their entire forces in the battle field in order to crush the reformative Revolution, but they utterly failed in their evil designs. The defeat of 'ignorance' at Hunain paved the way for making the whole of Arabia the 'Abode of Islam' (Dar-ul-Islam). The result was that hardly a year had Passed after the Battle of Hunain, when the major portion of Arabia came within the fold of Islam and only a few upholders of the old order remained scattered over some corners of the country.

The second event that contributed towards making Islam a formidable power was the Campaign of Tabuk, which was necessitated by the provocative activities of the Christians living within or near the boundaries of the Roman Empire to the north of Arabia. Accordingly, the Holy Prophet, with an army of thirty thousand marched boldly towards the Roman Empire but the Romans evaded the encounter. The result was that the power of the Holy Prophet and Islam increased manifold and deputations from all corners of Arabia began to wait upon him on his return from Tabuk in order to offer their allegiance to Islam and obedience to him. The Holy Quran has described this triumph in Surah AN-NASR: "When the succour of Allah came and victory was attained and you saw people entering the fold of Islam in large numbers... Campaign to Tabuk
The Campaign to Tabuk was the result of conflict with the Roman Empire, that had started even before the conquest of Makkah. One of the missions sent after the Treaty of Hudaibiyah to different parts of Arabia visited the clans which lived in the northern areas adjacent to Syria. The majority of these people were Christians, who were under the influence of the Roman Empire. Contrary to all the principles of the commonly accepted international law, they killed fifteen members of the delegation near a place known as Zat-u-Talah (or Zat-i-Itlah). Only Ka'ab bin Umair Ghifari, the head of the delegation, succeeded in escaping and reporting the sad incident. Besides this, Shurahbll bin Amr, the Christian governor of Busra, who was directly under the Roman Caesar, had also put to death Haritli bin Umair, the ambassador of the Holy Prophet, who had been sent to him on a similar minion.

These events convinced the Holy Prophet that a strong action should be taken in order to make the territory adjacent to the Roman Empire safe and secure for the Muslims. Accordingly, in the month of Jamadi-ul-Ula A. H. 8, he sent an army of three thousand towards the Syrian border. When this army reached near Ma'an, the Muslims learnt that Shurahbil was marching with an army of one hundred thousand to fight-with them and that the Caesar, who himself was at Hims, had sent another army consisting of one hundred thousand soldiers under his brother Theodore. But in spite of such fearful news, the brave small band of the Muslims marched on fearlessly and encountered the big army of Shurahbil at M'utah. And the result of the encounter in which the Muslims were fighting against fearful odds (the ratio of the two armies was 1:33), as very favorable, for the enemy utterly failed to defeat them. This proved very helpful for the propagation of Islam. As a result, those Arabs who were living in a state of semi. independence in Syria and near Syria and the clans of Najd near Iraq, who were under the influence of the Iranian Empire, turned towards Islam and embraced it in thousands. For example, the people of Bani Sulaim (whose chief was Abbas bin Mirdas Sulaimi), Ashja'a, Ghatafan, Zubyan, Fazarah, etc., came into the fold of Islam at the same time. Above all, Farvah bin 'Amral Juzami, who was the commander of the Arab armies of the Roman Empire, embraced Islam during that time, and underwent the trial of his Faith in a way that filled the whole territory with wonder. When the Caesar came to know that Farvah had embraced Islam, he ordered that he should be arrested and brought to his court. Then the Caesar said to him, "You will have to choose one of the two things. Either give up your Islam and win your liberty and your former rank, or remain a Muslim and face death." He calmly chose Islam and sacrificed his life in the way of the Truth.

No wonder that such events as these made the Caesar realize the nature of the danger that was threatening his Empire from Arabia. Accordingly, in 9 A. H. he began to make military preparations to avenge the insult he had suffered at M'utah. The Ghassanid and other Arab chiefs also began to muster armies under him. When the Holy Prophet, who always kept himself well-informed even of the minutest things that could affect the Islamic Movement favorably or adversely, came to know of these preparations, he at once under- stood their meaning. Therefore, without the least hesitation he decided to fight against the great power of the Caesar. He knew that the show of the slightest weakness would result in the utter failure of the Movement which was facing three great dangers at that time. First the dying power of 'ignorance' that had almost been crushed in the battle-field of Hunain might revive again. Secondly, the Hypocrites of Al: Madinah, who were always on the look-out for such an opportunity, might make full use of this to do the greatest possible harm to it. For they had already made preparations for this and had, through a monk called Abu Amir, sent secret messages of their evil designs to the Christian king of Ghassan and the Caesar himself. Besides this, they had also built a mosque near Al-Madinah for holding secret meetings for this purpose. The third danger was of an attack by the Caesar himself, who had already defeated Iran, the other great power of that period, and filled with awe the adjacent territories.

It is obvious that if all these three elements had been given an opportunity of taking a concerted action against the Muslims, Islam would have lost the fight it had almost won. That is why in this case the Holy Prophet made an open declaration for making preparations for the Campaign against the Roman Empire, which was one of the two greatest empires of the world of that period. The declaration was made though all the apparent circumstances were against such a decision: for there was famine in the country and the long awaited crops were about to ripen: the burning heat of the scorching summer season of Arabia was at, its height and there was not enough money for preparations in general, and for equipment and conveyance in particular. But in spite of these handicaps, when the Messenger of Allah realized the urgency of the occasion, he took this step which was to decide whether the Mission of the Truth was - - going to survive or perish. The very fact that he made an open declaration for making preparations for such a campaign to Syria against the Roman Empire showed how important it was, for this was contrary to his previous practice. Usually he took every precaution not to reveal beforehand the direction to which he was going nor the name of the enemy whom he was going to attack; nay, he did not move out of Al- Madinah even in the direction of the campaign.

All the parties in Arabia fully realized the grave consequences of this critical decision. The remnants of the lovers of the old order of 'ignorance' were anxiously waiting for the result of the Campaign, for they had pinned all their hopes on the defeat of Islam by the Romans. The 'hypocrites' also considered it to be their last chance of crushing the power of Islam by internal rebellion, if the Muslims suffered a defeat in Syria. They had, therefore, made full use of the Mosque built by them for hatching plots and had employed all their devices to render the Campaign a failure. On the other side, the true Believers also realized fully that the fate of the Movement for which they had been exerting their utmost for the last 22 years was now hanging in the balance. If they showed courage on that critical occasion, the doors of the whole outer world would be thrown open for the Movement to spread. But if they showed weakness or cowardice, then all the work they had done in Arabia would -end in smoke.

That is why these lovers of Islam began to make enthusiastic preparations for the Campaign. Everyone of them tried to surpass the other in making contributions for the provision of equipment for it. Hadrat Uthman and Hadrat Abdur Rehman bin Auf presented large sums of money for this purpose. Hadrat Umar contributed half of the earnings of his life and Hadrat Abu Bakr the entire earnings of his life. The indigent Companions did not lag behind and presented whatever they could earn by the sweat of their labor and the women parted with their ornaments. Thousands of volunteers, who were filled with the desire of sacrificing their lives for Islam, came to the Holy Prophet and requested that arrangements for weapons and conveyance be made for them so that they should join the expedition. Those who could not be provided with these shed tears of sorrow; the scene was so pathetic that it made the Holy Prophet sad because of his inability to arm them. In short, the occasion became the touchstone for discriminating a true believer from a hypocrite. For, to lag behind in the Campaign meant that the very relationship of a person to Islam was doubtful. Accordingly, whenever a person lagged behind during the journey to Tabuk, the Holy Prophet, on being informed, would spontaneously say, "Leave him alone. If there be any good in him, Allah will again join him with you, and if there be no good in him, then thank Allah that He relieved you of his evil company".

In short, the Holy Prophet marched out towards Syria in Rajab A. H. 9, with thirty thousand fighters for the cause of Islam. The conditions in which the expedition was undertaken may be judged from the fact that the number of camels with them was so small that many of them were obliged to walk on foot and to wait for their turns for several had to ride at a time on each camel. To add to this, there was the burning heat of the desert and the acute shortage of water. But they were richly rewarded for their firm resolve and sincere adherence to the cause and for their perseverance in the face of those great difficulties and obstacles.

When they arrived at Tabuk, they learnt that the Caesar and his allies had withdrawn their troops from the frontier and there was no enemy to fight with. Thus they won a moral victory that increased their prestige manifold and, that too, without shedding a drop of blood.

In this connection, it is pertinent to point out that the general impression given by the historians of the campaigns of the Holy Prophet about the Campaign of Tabuk is not correct. They relate the event in a way as if the news of the mustering of the Roman armies near the Arabian frontier was itself false. The fact is that the Caesar had begun to muster his armies, but the Holy Prophet forestalled him and arrived on the scene before he could make full preparations for the invasion. Therefore, believing that "discretion is the better part of valor," he withdrew his armies from the frontier. For he had not forgotten that the three thousand fighters for the cause of Islam had rendered helpless his army one hundred thousand strong at M'utah. He could not, therefore, even with an army of two hundred thousand, dare to fight against an army of thirty thousand, and that, too, under the leadership of the Holy Prophet himself.

When the Holy Prophet found that the Caesar had withdrawn his forces from the frontier, he considered thee question whether it would be worthwhile to march into the Syrian territory or to halt at Tabuk and turn his moral victory to political and strategical advantage. He decided on the latter course and made a halt for twenty days at Tabuk. During this time, he brought pressure on the small states that lay between the Roman Empire and the Islamic State and were at that time under the influence of the Romans, and subdued and made them the tributaries of the Islamic State. For instance, some Christian chiefs Ukaidir bin Abdul Malik Kindi of Dumatul Jaiidal, Yuhanna bin D'obah of Allah, and the chiefs of Maqna, Jarba' and Azruh also submitted and agreed to pay Jizyah to the Islamic State of Al- Madinah. As a result of this, the boundaries of the Islamic State were extended right up to the Roman Empire, and the majority of the Arab clans, who were being used by the Caesar against Arabia, became the allies of the Muslims against the Romans.

Above all, this moral victory of Tabuk afforded a golden opportunity to the Muslims to strengthen their hold on Arabia before entering into a long conflict with the Romans. For it broke the back of those who had still been expecting that the old order of 'ignorance' might revive in the near future, whether they were the open upholders of shirk or the hypocrites who were hiding their shirk under the garb of Islam. The majority of such people were compelled by the force of circumstances to enter into the fold of Islam and, at least, make it possible for their descendants to become true Muslims. After this a mere impotent minority of the upholders of the old order was left in the field, but it could not stand in the way of the Islamic Revolution for the perfection of which Allah had sent His Messenger."





I also
found these verses from the koran

Quran (29:46).: Be courteous when you argue with the People of the Book [Christians and jews), except with those among them who do evil. Say: We believe in that which is revealed to us and which was revealed to you. Our God and your God is one.



Koran 5:82 says: "Surely they that believe, and the Jews, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, who believe in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness--their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow."

You never see Chrstians and jews mention those verses that promote peace and forgiveness.


Cyt
And as we can all see,in your interpretation versus mine,which one is most common today.
Do some research and compare the violence of the "peacful" religion of islamthe the violence of Christianity,Buhdism,Paganism,Taoism, and any others you can think of.
I would be willing toput realmoney on the fact that islamic radicals (the military wing of islam commitinf these atrocities in the name of islam) by far exceeds all other relions combined.
Until the actual numbers of people killed and wounded by these animals drops radically, I will not buy it.
If islamis soooo peacful where are the protests against the actions of the few that have "highjacked" it? They don'toccur because for the most part they agree with goals of the jihadists. Maybe not the tactics,but they are wholeheartedly behind the world being under sharia law.
And don't take this as a complete blanket of ALL muslims. I have met quite a few that say they don't want toforce any into their way of life. Funny that they can't tell me either where all of the protests are against the jihadists.
All I have to do to see the wonderful world of islam is walk outside my hooch here in Iraq or go downtown when I was in Kuwait. I'mjust not impressed.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
Not to offend,but God bless and have a great day.

Dan874
Muslims have spoken loudly and clearly against extremism and terrorism. The following site is recovering from a major attack. please keep checking it till the links are up and running again.

Its has the links to Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism. Muslims are speaking out against all violence but the media in the west are not giving them air time to convey it to the masses.

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php


Dan874
Whats the difference between violence committed by a state and individuals?? wearing the uniform and having more money and ammunition to inflict more death and destruction.

If you look just at the last 100 years . over 8 European countries colonized most of the Muslim countries. the death toll in Algeria alone amounts to more than 2 million people not counting rape and property destruction..etc

Dead palestians outnumber the dead israelis about 3 times without counting the cana massacre.

the vietnam war left millions of vietnamese dead.

In bosnia the genocide of Muslims left 300,00 muslims dead.

In europe the genocide left millions of jews dead.

All these massacres were committed by Christians.


cyt
You can argue all you want but I saw a video during the Iran hostage crisis where Iran violated all conventions of diplomacy. During an interview with Shi'ites by ABC, it was stated that the Shi'ites' goal was/is to impose (that was not the actual word) their brand of Islam throughout the world. Don't try to tell me that Islam is a religion of peace; I wasn't born yesterday and haven't been dumbed down by what passes for "public school education." The Koran calls for killing the "infidel" and the "infidel" is anyone who is not a Muslim.

The anal pore who heads up CAIR talks in stereo -- out both sides of his mouth. When talking to the public he speaks platitudes about wanting to assimilate but -- in the mosque -- talks about continuing the fight to make Islam the only legally accepted religion and the Koran the only acceptable religious book.

Jim Jones would have envied the ability of Muslims to convert Christian -- particularly American -- women into accepting Shari'a law in which women have no rights whatsoever. If a woman is forcibly raped, even gang raped, and a pregnancy results then the woman is automatically judged to be at fault and sentenced to death by beheading. The "Kool-Aid" administered by Jones would have been too tame, it appears. When we consider that Mohammed was a rapist (especially of children), mass murderer and slave owner we should not be surprised. He invented that "religion" to honor those evils.

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