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Wednesday, May 20, 2009
Michael Gerson :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Democratic Assault on Our Intelligence
by Michael Gerson
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WASHINGTON -- In a little over 100 days, the Obama administration and the Democratic Congress have delivered a series of blows to the pride and morale of the Central Intelligence Agency.

It began with the release of the Justice Department memos -- a move opposed by CIA Director Leon Panetta along with four previous directors. Then, Attorney General Eric Holder Jr. did not rule out Justice Department cooperation with foreign lawsuits against American intelligence operatives. Then, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi accused the CIA of lying to her in 2002 about waterboarding, which she admitted learning about five months later anyway but did nothing to oppose because her real job was to "change the leadership in Congress and in the White House."

To stanch the CIA's bleeding morale, Democrats have tried reassurance. President Obama, speaking at CIA headquarters, took the Fred Rogers approach: "Don't be discouraged that we have to acknowledge potentially we've made some mistakes. That's how we learn." Yes, children, hypocritical congressional investigations and foreign kangaroo courts are really our friends. House intelligence committee Chairman Silvestre Reyes sent a sympathy note to Langley: "In recent days, as the public debate regarding CIA's interrogation practices has raged, you have been very much in my thoughts." There should be a section at Hallmark for intelligence operatives unfairly accused of war crimes.

The only effective reassurance came from Panetta, who pointed out to Pelosi and others that the CIA actually keeps records of its congressional briefings. "Our contemporaneous records from September 2002," Panetta wrote, "indicate that CIA officers briefed truthfully on the interrogation of Abu Zubaida, describing 'the enhanced techniques that had been employed.'" A primary advocate of the "truth commission" has apparently misplaced her own supply.

Is there any precedent for a speaker of the House of Representatives seeking political shelter by blaming national security professionals? Or for a commander in chief exposing intelligence methods at the urging of the ACLU? Actually, such treatment has precedents. In 1975, the Church Committee nearly destroyed the human intelligence capabilities of the CIA. In the early 1990s, Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan urged closing the agency entirely. The Clinton administration imposed massive budget cuts, leaving behind a demoralized institution.

And now Obama has described the post-9/11 period as "a dark and painful chapter in our history." In fact, whatever your view of waterboarding, the response of intelligence professionals following 9/11 was impressive. Within days, the CIA had linked up with the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan and begun preparations to remove the Taliban. The counterterrorism center run of out CIA headquarters was the war on terror in the months following the attacks, making daily progress in capturing high-value targets. Now the president and his party have done much to tarnish those accomplishments. So much for the thanks of a grateful nation.

Contrast this affront to Obama's treatment of the military. When Gen. Ray Odierno argued that the release of military abuse photos would put American troops at risk, Obama quickly backed down. By one account, Odierno told the president, "Thanks. That must have been a hard decision." Obama replied: "No, it wasn't at all." Obama has deferred to his military commanders on the timing and strategy of American withdrawals from Iraq. And he has proposed an escalating military commitment in Afghanistan and Pakistan -- leading 51 House Democrats last week to vote against a military funding bill.

Defense writer Tom Ricks claims that Obama is being "rolled" by the military. Perhaps it is just an appropriate respect by the commander in chief for the troops at his command.

This obvious difference in treatment between military and intelligence is both paradoxical and hypocritical. Traveling recently in Iraq, Pelosi noted, "If we're going to have a diminished military presence, we'll have to have an increased intelligence presence." This has been the main Democratic argument against the whole idea of the war on terror -- that guns and bombs are no substitute for timely information. "This war on terror is far less of a military operation and far more of an intelligence-gathering, law-enforcement operation," Sen. John Kerry once claimed.

But this object of praise -- intelligence gathering -- is again the object of liberal assault. "To put the matter at its simplest," writes Gabriel Schoenfeld, "American elites have become increasingly discomfited over the last decades by the very existence of a clandestine intelligence service in a democratic society."

But our democratic society still depends on intelligence officers -- just as surely as it depends on our men and women in uniform.

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About The Author
Michael Gerson writes a twice-weekly column for The Post on issues that include politics, global health, development, religion and foreign policy. Michael Gerson is the author of the book "Heroic Conservatism" and a contributor to Newsweek magazine.
 
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Marine:
I know that as a Christian I am supposed to not say this; but I HATE THIS MAN!!

----------------------------------------
You have plenty of company. I have never detested an American President until now. I get angry at just the sight of him and that damn Teleprompter! I think I need an intervention.

Leftists Just Doing What Comes Naturally
Every time they get in power they start the systematic destruction of our Intelligence, our economy and our military. It never fails. Why there are still people out there who put these corrupt idiots in complete charge is a mystery. They must have a death wish.

The new Attorney General speaks:
"Rejecting Bush Policies On Interrogation

Under questioning, Holder said he would classify "waterboarding" as torture and move to bar the controversial interrogation practice, during which detainees are subjected to simulated drowning"

Holder clearly states waterboarding has NOT been classified as torture in the PAST, even before Bush.

So, Fred, this is also congressional testimony of an OBAMA nominee, and the guy who pardoned Marc Rich.

If Mukasey says it is NOT torture, and Holder says it WAS NOT before his appointment, are they both wrong?

Game set, match, Fred. Douglas, etc. A clean sweep.

More for Fred and company
I know how government works, do you fred? DO you respect the words of the TOP lawyer for the government, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL?

Here is what he testified to:

KWAME HOLMAN: Yesterday, Attorney General Mukasey spoke for his department before the House Judiciary Committee.

REP. JOHN CONYERS (D), Michigan: Are you ready to start a criminal investigation into whether this confirmed use of waterboarding by United States agents was illegal?

MICHAEL MUKASEY, U.S. Attorney General: That's a direct question, and I will give a direct answer. No, I am not, for this reason: Whatever was done as part of a CIA program at the time that it was done was the subject of a Department of Justice opinion through the Office of Legal Counsel and was found to be permissible under the law as it existed then.

Do you really think three lawyers at lower level issued opinions in something so important without review?

My advice to Sol & Anderson
When you discredited ODOL's sources without ever asking what they were you jumped the shark.

Give it up before you embarrass yourselves further.

Anne can take it, she does it all day long, but try to keep a little ofyour dignity at least.

Anderson, your desperation to dismiss
ODOL is getting a little frantic.

His fact sources are "hate America" Huh??? That's the best you can do??

If you're going to have an intelligent debate you'll have to do better than that.

Also, I read the posts - ONOL used the Justice Dept first and Bush later because, as he explained, the DOJ memos had to have been written at Bush's direction.

You do know how government works, don't you?

Testimony to Congress
Congressional hearings on waterboarding, in the congressional record, on tape, and transcribed:

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), California: I gather that you felt that, for yourself, if used, waterboarding would, in fact, constitute torture. Is that correct?

VICE ADM. MIKE MCCONNELL (Ret.), Director of National Intelligence: No, ma'am, it's not correct. The question is, is waterboarding a legal technique? And everything I know, based on the appropriate authority to make that judgment, it is a legal technique used in a specific set of circumstances. You have to know the circumstances to be able to make the judgment.

Now, three and only three were waterboarded. Obama stopped the release of information gained during those sessions from being released. WhY ? They obtained information that saved the lives of people. And people like Pelosi agreed.

So Fred, Dr. Douglas, one day, etc. looks like game, set, match, you lose.

Getting back to Gerson's point about the
inviolable integrity of the CIA: Those documents that supposedly show that Nancy Pelosi was briefed on waterboarding also identify Porter Goss as a member of Congress at the time he was actually Director of the CIA.

On legal authority
Fred writes this line:

"But the legal guidance that authorized those early interrogations remains shrouded in secrecy."

Comment: Probably because the same practices were in place prior to the Bush administration. That would be Clinton.

Ever think of that Fred?

Fred your two cents worth
Fred
Location: IL
Reply # 4
Date: May 21, 2009 - 10:35 AM EST My two cents
It looks to me like has already provided the facts and answered your questions - twice, Sol.

Comment: Facts? sol caught him changing the facts, did you miss that part?

"Making the comment that his sources are discredit is kind of strange and desperate, since he offered to provide them but never did (because he wasn't asked, apparently)---
so assuming that they are discredited seems a rather lame argument."

Comment: He named his sources. His sources are from hate America first people who have been involved in prsenting or claiming to have evidence they do not. Lame would apply to using "lame" sources such as these.

Anyone using sources form the hate America first crowd are lame.

Your two cents worth appear to be slugs Fred.

Akagi
You make a point I have trouble with:


"While waterboarding was clearly a violation of the UN CAT"

Comment: Akagi, you missed my point about what the Mexican police do, I saw some of that years ago. The British and others are not so nice with certain prisoners, and so goes it with many other countries.

How is it the USA invites this terrible villification for doing nothing more than any other country would have done in similar circumstances, or I might add, worse ?


Sol and ODOL's answer
Dr. Douglas is right, Sol, you need to live with it.

Now on the internet
" It is clear that increasingly abusive interrogation techniques were used on Abu Zubaydah, the first high-value detainee, in the months between his capture and the first Justice Department memo authorizing harsh interrogations. But the legal guidance that authorized those early interrogations remains shrouded in secrecy.

Zubaydah was picked up on March 28, 2002. The Justice Department issued its first memo on torture four months later on Aug. 1.

It goes on, but I know how angry facts make you all, so I'm sure there's no point.

My two cents
It looks to me like has already provided the facts and answered your questions - twice, Sol.

Making the comment that his sources are discredit is kind of strange and desperate, since he offered to provide them but never did (because he wasn't asked, apparently)---
so assuming that they are discredited seems a rather lame argument.

Dr. Douglas and his drive by postings:
Douglas posts his best:

Dr Douglas
Location: OR
Reply # 6
Date: May 21, 2009 - 4:23 AM EST To the pro-torture crowd:

"One day of life" already answered your question.
Live with it. "

Comment: Sure he did Dr. Douglas, and in typical far left liberal fashion was caught by Sol changing words around to make them something different than they were intended and posted. He also used as a reference an individual who is also noted for claiming to have non existent evidence supporting similair claims.

In short Dr. Douglas he posts exactly as you do.

one day of life-sol caught you
You responded to Sol with this:

Sol
"which you changed to:
"1.. In 2002 Bush secretly issued secret memos saying that torture was legal."

Isn't that a tad dishonest?"

Excuse me, you are saying that one year after 9/11 the Justice department decided to secretly legalize torture because they didn't want Bush to know about it?

Comment: No he is not saying that, sol caught you blatantly changing reference links. That is dishonest, blatantly so, and it identifies YOU as someone who is another typical liberal poster here at TH. An outright liar.

Are you really that naive?

Comment: The better question would be why YOU are blatantly dishonest.

Why do you use frauds such as Swifton, who has been oublicly nailed for using lies. Then again I guess you both have something in common.

Anne
"Again, that's your opinion...."

No that is the opinion of the United Nations and it seems the United States as well since it admitted to the UN CAT (Committee Against Torture)that it had engaged in torture of prisoners at Gitmo, Iraq and in Afghanistan.

And no Anne, you said war ending by treaty which is clearly not the case with Korea and might I add that the war with Japan formally ended by treaty--the Treaty of San Francisco, the war with Mexico ended by treaty--Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, the First Sino-Japanese War ended by treaty--the Treaty of Shimonoseki (Treaty of Maguan), the Russo-Japanese War ended by treaty--Treaty of Portsmouth and on and on. I would call you stupid, but I am afraid that might be an insult to stupid people.

Anderson:

What you can do to your own military is quite different from what you can do to prisoners. Just one example, members of the military can be ordered to clear mines, prisoners can not.

While waterboarding was clearly a violation of the UN CAT, and while the US Congress no doubt felt that it was clearly illegal before (or so are the claims), that wanted to make it crystal that such acts were illegal as they didn't want people like Anne here coming forward in the future and trying to argue that under the CAT it was legal.


Oh, come on!
"Defense writer Tom Ricks claims that Obama is being "rolled" by the military. Perhaps it is just an appropriate respect by the commander in chief for the troops at his command."

That's bovine feces. Obama and his gang are going to need the military to suppress opposition here at home.

Anne

I read the stuff you posted and it's just wacko.

Mohammed=Hitler=Obama.

It's as deranged as they come.

Aniko

Guess I don't get your "gist", because you still sound extremely partisan to me. I wouldn't call you "super-partisan" (like some of the others) but believe me, you are way, way out there.

To the pro-torture crowd:

"One day of life" already answered your question.
Live with it.

Dr Douglas
Yea, Dougie Houser, I am not terribly partisan. I disagree vehemently with the religious far right when they demonstrate in front of abortion clinics with their hymns and gory photo-shop enhanced pictures of “mutilated” babies suctioned form a womb. I wish they would have the guts to demonstrate at gay parades where the digestive excrement canal lovers flaunt their booties that make me really react with the most uncontrollable of human reactions of vomiting urge. I am a fiscally responsible person who always balanced her check-book, whether I was employed or temporarily out of work. I love this country, its constitution and the individual freedom it stands for, and I am ready to give my life defending it! I am a person who discerns the magnificence of the forest and accepts the practice of cutting even the most glorious old tree to save the forest!
If you get my gist, you might agree that I am not partisan.

Audacity of Frauds: Part II

Mohammed, Hitler, Obama!
Dr. Ali Sina, February 8, 2009

http://iranpoliticsclub.net/politics/audacity-frauds/index. htm

“It does not take much to see that Obama, like the above conmen is a narcissist and like them, dangerous. There are many obvious clues to those who understand narcissism. One is the fact that he is a serial liar. Some of his lies are big, so big that few doubt them.

“Could anyone in their right mind run for the presidency of the USA if he or she is not an American? This sounds ludicrous and yet, there is cause to believe that Obama may actually be an illegal immigrant and ineligible for the senate, let alone the presidency.

“It is not a secret that I am not an Obama fan. I have gone out of my way to w arn Americans to be wary of this Pied Piper.

“Despite my bias, when I first heard this allegation made by Philip Berg, a lifelong Democrat and a former Deputy Attorney General of Pennsylvania, I dismissed it. The possibility of one person having the audacity to bamboozle an entire country and commit a fraud so colossal just seemed too farfetched.

“However, I know a thing or two about narcissism. I know narcissists have no grasp of reality and as such they can be very audacious. I also know about the magic of the big lie. So I paid attention to what Berg says and hey, he seems to be on to something. Then again, what did Obama have to lose? He may not even have dreamt that he would win. Just running for presidency would have given him fame and recognition, something a narcissist would kill for. But hey, the world is full of suckers and surprise, what started as a prank became a reality.”


And be sure to note the paragraph quoted from Chapter 10 of Mein Kampf.

Hey dr dougie... read this!

Audacity-Frauds:Mohammed, Hitler, Obama

Dr. Ali Sina, February 8, 2009

http://iranpoliticsclub.net/politics/audacity-frauds/index. htm

“Bold, Arrogant, Megalomaniac, Narcissist, Compulsive Liar and a fraud celebrity, erected by the American Liberal Media and sold to the naïve public as the 44th president of United States of America! Obama with the highest amount of campaign funds in the history of America, had practically bought his way in to the presidency!

“We may wonder how evil men like Hitler and Muhammad fooled so many people to the extent that under their spell they willingly committed the most hideous crimes. Could this happen again? Could, in this day and age, another narcissist deceive millions with his big lies? Sadly, the answer is yes. Human evolution is only technological. Psychologically and emotionally we are still cavemen. It is at this level that people are conned and narcissists operate. Obama’s followers worship him. They act thuggishly towards his critics.

"Even law enforcers, such as sheriffs and prosecutors have agreed with him to abuse their authority and form “Obama Truth Squads.” It is clear the intent is to intimidate h is critics. Does truth need the hand of law? “Yes,” if you ask Hitler, Muhammad and Obama, “no,” if you ask Jesus and Buddha. This is just the beginning. What do Obama’s minions do when he is actually in power? Their cultic mentality and their vicious attacks of his critics can only be likened to that of Muslims, fascists, Nazis, Bolshevists and followers of Jim Jones. This level of fanaticism is unprecedented in American politics.”

Cont…..

Aniko
Did you really means to say your views aren't "terribly partisan"?

one day of life/4th request

Torture has been illegal in the USA for many, many years.

You claim that waterboarding as practiced by the CIA is torture, which would render said practice illegal.

Why did the Senate voted Feb 2008 to make illegal the CIA use of waterboarding?

My issues with Obama 2
I don’t have terribly partisan views. I am a mother of two who immigrated to America after I was exiled form my native country, Ceausescu’s Romania. I birthed my son here, and I tried to raise him with a strong sense of right and wrong, natural law and unnatural tendencies. I think he got it right: he is a gentle, artistic, common-sense led young man. I am proud of him. When I looked at Obama seriously, I concluded that this young man had no proper guidance ever in his life! His wife (whom I think is the one who wears the pants in the Obama house hold), is a bitter, American-negro woman who led him into an angry black-theology (whatever antichristian theology they call themselves), church where he found God through Satan’s mouthpiece, Jeremiah Wright! He finds “god”, and then he marries the WOMAN! Form there on, the woman leads him in a direction of vengeance against all the vagaries of the white men for the past 200 odd years of America. He wants to be “transformative”, and he does believe that a particular race deserves restitution for sins committed against his wife’s race for the entire history of this nation! In the process he is about to destroy everything this nation ever stood for, and got it to where it belonged, and still belongs today. He is vacillating when he uses his logical hemisphere of his brain, and then shamelessly claims, that is something he stated when he was running for office. By now, my suspicion about him has proven to be true: he is a child whose been given the authority to change the course of history of mankind, as Nero did in the Roman Empire! I am praying ardently for him, for the Holy Spirit of God to guide him not to be Judas, who kissed Christ when the centurions came to arrest Him! Let’s ALL pry for him not to lead us into the temptation to destroy ourselves!

Obama and my issues with him 1
My problem with Obama is that he got into the White House at a time when he is only trying to masticate information about his nation, when the rest of us are having diarrhea form all the stuff we had to ingest from party politics, narcissism, and many other politician pabulum. WE are Americans: all grown up, yet our congress-people and senators are feeding us easily digestible food for toddlers. WE need to act like grown-ups who have to deal with serious, mature, national survival issues. WE seem to elect “people” (in lack of a more descriptive word), who are like lying kids. They promise something that we, the adults of America, want to believe in. What do we get? Politicians who feel perfectly comfortable to promise us something that they are incapable to deliver: Obama and hiss lofty promises to both the left and the right. Of course he got the vote of both (ergo: majority!), and when it comes to implement the promises, he initially leans to the majority of his supporters (liberal left), until he realizes that it is not realistic! So, he changes the tune, to be acceptable to the right too! He seems, at best disoriented, and at worst, the most vile of politicians we were fed up with! His polling rates are still high, but not overwhelmingly so! So he keeps on tap-dancing, back and forth and lets this nation sink deeper and deeper into the muck he walked into. I didn’t vote for him, not because I never trusted his convictions, but because I knew he had no convictions! I can accept a far leftist political hack like Hillary; at least I know what to expect. It is another thing to deal with a president who seems to be tossed in the wind like a pre-pubescent teenager. I call him the boy-king, and I hope I don’t offend his Harvard Law sensitivities. The boy-king I am thinking about is Tutankhamen, who apparently got killed at a young age. This is not to mean that he will be assassinated, but that he will commit political hara-kiri by trying to please everyone.

one day: What a worthless wretch you are

Sol is not naive but YOU are ignorant.

How about a little proof to back up your inane statements buck-o?


Sorry to burst your little party balloon but my IQ is DOUBLE your cute little requirememt... HA HA HA HA

You're such a tool!

Sol
"which you changed to:
"1.. In 2002 Bush secretly issued secret memos saying that torture was legal."

Isn't that a tad dishonest?"

Excuse me, you are saying that one year after 9/11 the Justice department decided to secretly legalize torture because they didn't want Bush to know about it?

Are you really that naive?

Zero Leadership
Why is Leon Panetta about the only Dem to speak up against Pinko Pelosi. Where is Pinko Obama?

one day of life Part III
This simpleton posts to Anne:

"No one with an IQ under 80 is allowed to address me. Don't post to me any more. "

Since he uses discredited sources, changes his source material, and provides insults to those he thinks are not smart enough to figure out his smarmy tactics that must make him a classic :

Liberal.

one day of life part II
The lib scribbles in defiance:

Congratulations, Sol
You did exactly what I predicted - you countered my facts with a personal insult, because you can't refute any of them or even discuss them. I doubt if you could even follow them.

How transparent -- and pathetic.

Comment: No, you answered nothng, and as far as insults go, read your posts. a far as refuting your facts, that is easy, see Swifton. Next time do not use discredited liars that have embarassed national news organizations with their lies.


"So long, Pal."

Comment: Please make that a promise and permanent

one day of life
Where to start?

Ok, your torture post:

So much garbage posted by you and so limited space. Let us begin with your human rights investigator, Swifton. Not only is ihe a far left zealot, he makes it up as he goes along. He was also in on the haditha marine scandal and provided FALSE information. Here is an excerpt:

Posted Friday, May. 26, 2006

In the original version of this story, TIME reported that "one of the most damning pieces of evidence investigators have in their possession, John Sifton of Human Rights Watch told Time’s Tim McGirk, is a photo, taken by a Marine with his cell phone that shows Iraqis kneeling — and thus posing no threat — before they were shot." While Sifton did tell TIME that there was photographic evidence, taken by Marines, he had only heard about the specific content of the photos from reports done by NBC, and had no firsthand knowledge

Sifton does not hesitate to lie.

Your whole post is invalidated using him as a resource. A discredited far left zealot.

Listen and learn one day of life so YOUR IQ rises above a low watt bulb.

Now to part II



one day of life
I found this in the Boston Globe:

{And in 2002, the administration drafted a secret legal memo holding that Bush could authorize interrogators to violate antitorture laws when necessary to protect national security.}

In the student newspaper you cited, it became:

{In 2002, secret memos were issued by the Justice Department, in which they argued that torturing prisoners was not against the law.}

which you changed to:
"1.. In 2002 Bush secretly issued secret memos saying that torture was legal."

Isn't that a tad dishonest?

It still doesn't prove antitorture laws were violated. In fact the congressional lawmakers(Intelligence committees)approved of the CIA procedures.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/ 01/04/bush_could_bypass_new_torture_ban/?page=full

Why did the Senate vote Feb 2008 to make illegal the CIA use of waterboarding?

Could it be that CIA-Waterboarding did not meet the "burden of proof" of the current torture laws, that is, "beyond a reasonable doubt" that it "intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering"?

Remember you must prove intent AND severity.
The procedures were supervised by M.D's and psychologists (accdng to CIA and the Red Cross).

Sol - This is as simple as I can make it
Why did the Senate vote Feb 2008 to make illegal the CIA use of waterboarding?

1.. In 2002 Bush secretly issued secret memos saying that torture was legal.

2/ In 2005 Gonzo & Co. wrote two more secret memos, approving of torture, and saying it did not violate the Detainee Treatment Act, which had not yet been passed but which did pass, in 2005.

3. When Bushie signed the DTA, he issued a statement saying that he was exempt from the new law.

4. In 2007, overriding himself, Bush wrote an executive order that he was following the law, but purposely left waterboarding torture in limbo by not specifically identifying it. In other words, he purposely tried to make torture legal.

5. As a result, torture remained in question, and when Obama was elected he had law passed that made torture clearly illegal, so that future presidents could not do it secretly and lie about it as Bush had.

If you can't figure that out, only God can help you.

We could do away with waterboarding
and just force them to watch a continuing and endless loop of homosexual "marriages" being performed...

Obama's strategy on foreign policy...
seems to be: Pander to our enemies through self-flaggeration, while insulting our national security agencies. Now he proposes releasing potential GITMO terrosists in the U.S, in a neighborhood near you. Remember: All of those at GITMO detainees, whether there was convicted on overwhelming evidence or not, were captured in Jihadist training camps or on the battle field. They all hate the West and sympathize with radical Islamic causes. I'll bet they won't be released in Obama's neighborhood.

one day of life
I will answer any question you ask of me if you answer my question:

3rd request
You claim CIA waterboarding is torture.
Torture has been illegal in the USA for many, many years.

Why did the Senate vote Feb 2008 to make illegal the CIA use of waterboarding?

Congratulations, Sol
You did exactly what I predicted - you countered my facts with a personal insult, because you can't refute any of them or even discuss them. I doubt if you could even follow them.

How transparent -- and pathetic.

So long, Pal.


one day of life
Great source for your info--A student newspaper?

{In order to be considered for a position with the Washington University Law Review, all students must participate in a write-on competition.}

What's your other reliable source? The one written by a burned out musician who fried his brain on drugs, called Crooksandliars ?

one day of life/2nd request
You claim CIA waterboarding is torture.
Torture has been illegal in the USA for many, many years.

Why did the Senate vote Feb 2008 to make illegal the CIA use of waterboarding?
-----
I asked you this question an hour ago. Instead of answering, you ran for cover. Will you flee today?


Sol - a question for you
Can you name one solid piece of evidence that shows torture saved even one American life?

Or are you going to run for cover on this one also?

z-z-z-z-z
"We learned yesterday of the death of at least one member of a group of CIA "ghost prisoners", captured detainees who have since simply disappeared, their current whereabouts still unknown. Bet you didn't know that there are still at least 10 CIA prisoners whose locations remain, in the best tradition of Dick Cheney, undisclosed."

Sol
Looks lie you have run for cover this time.

Anne
"Speaking on condition of anonymity, a former Bush official told Isikoff that the Red Cross has not been informed of the detainees' whereabouts. Nor has the State Department received assurances that the detainees won't be tortured in their home countries where many of them have been transferred to, the official said. The issue is particularly important to human rights groups because of a recently leaked Red Cross report that concluded the US tortured some terrorist suspects captured under the Bush Administration.

"This issue has been hiding in plain sight—but nobody has connected the dots," the former official is quoted as saying.

"The majority of the people in the CIA program are unaccounted for," John Sifton, a human-rights investigator and lawyer told Isikoff. "We don't know what happened to them."

----

No one with an IQ under 80 is allowed to address me. Don't post to me any more.

Sol and Anderson
Read and learn.

(CAPS ARE FOR YOU, ANDERSON) Waterboard
Waterboarding is an old form of torture AKA “water torture” or "the water cure". This method is preferred by some interrogators because, if the victim lives, it leaves no visible signs of torture upon the prisoner’s body. As the victim breathes in water, “a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt. It's been reported that"CIA OFFICERS WHO SUBJECTED THEMSELVES TO WATERBOARDING LASTED AN AVERAGE OF 14 SECONDS BEFORE CAVING IN."

In 2002, secret memos were issued by the Justice Department, in which they argued that torturing prisoners was not against the law. When these memos came to light in 2004 the administration withdrew them, calling torture "abhorrent. However, in 2005, after Gonzales became Attorney General, the Justice Department reportedly issued two more secret memos, which specifically approved waterboarding and other violent interrogation techniques, and concluded that these practices would not violate the Detainee Treatment Act, which was at that time pending before Congress. Later in 2005, Congress adopted the Detainee Treatment Act, which prohibited the “cruel, inhumane, or degrading” treatment of prisoners.” However, in signing the bill, Bush issued a statement implying that, under the Constitution, he was not bound by this provision of the Act Furthermore, the memos authorizing the use of waterboarding have not been made public, nor have they been withdrawn. In 2007, Bush issued an executive order stating that the interrogation program conducted by the CIA "fully complies" with the law, but the order conspicuously failed to identify the specific interrogation techniques which are permitted or prohibited. Despite the persistent fumbling of the Bush, Cheney and Gonzo concerning the legality of waterboarding, it appears that, at least so far as the Executive Branch of our government was concerned, the legality of waterboarding was still an open question.

one day of life: What? Are you crazy?

"I'm curious about the 'disappeared' prisoners who never made it out of the waterboarding room, for example."

Are you on drugs of just dumb?

There was a grand total of THREE (3) detainees who were waterboarded...

NO ONE "disappeared."

However, it might be a good idea if YOU "disappeared" from TH! :-)


Sol
If you say you asked me this question days ago, I won't argue but I think you're thinking of someone else.


Anderson This was the question
Would you rather be waterboarded by your mother or someone who could kill you, wants you dead, and knows he will never be held accountable?

I don't understand why this is such a taxing question for you, and why you can't imagine having a preference.

I thought I would be able to elicit an honest, thought out reply from you. My bad.

one day of life
Torture has been illegal in the USA for many, many years.

Why did the Senate vote Feb 2008 to make illegal the CIA use of waterboarding?
-----
I asked you this question a few days ago. Instead of answering, you ran for cover. Will you flee today?



one day of life
Anderson, don't you think there is a difference between a waterboarding administered by a colleague, a friend, a co-military buddy, and one administered by someone who doesn't care if you live or die, and knows that no-one in the civilized world even knows where you are?

Commwnt: No. How does it matter WHO did it ?? Waterboarding is waterboarding even if done by your mother. The act, waterboarding is what we are discussing, the implementation and mechanics of the act neither justify or diminish the act. Stick to the issue- waterboarding, not who did it.

"I'm curious about the "disappeared" prisoners who never made it out of the waterboarding room, for example. They just evaporated from the records. How many Navy Seals did this happen to?"

Comment: Why do you care? If you are curious about the welfare and well being of these enemy combatants, fly over to Afghanistan and ask around. Get back to us with what you find out. And by the way, post references to your accusations, and please, the last time this was posted, the accusations started out from a HuffPo blogger. Hardly evidence.

Some wisdom from Leo Tolstoy
"I see that a man I know to be a ruffian is pursuing a young girl,” Leo Tolstoy wrote in “The Kingdom of God Is Within You.” “I have a gun in my hand—I kill the ruffian and save the girl. But the death or the wounding of the ruffian has positively taken place, while what would have happened if this had not been I cannot know. And what an immense mass of evil must result, and indeed does result, from allowing men to assume the right of anticipating what may happen. Ninety-nine per cent of the evil of the world is founded on this reasoning—from the Inquisition to dynamite bombs.”

Anderson 659
"f waterboarding is torture,and illegal, then how do you reconcile the fact this same method has been used on tens of thousands of our military people in training for the last 25 years?"

Anderson, don't you think there is a difference between a waterboarding administered by a colleague, a friend, a co-military buddy, and one administered by someone who doesn't care if you live or die, and knows that no-one in the civilized world even knows where you are?

I'm curious about the "disappeared" prisoners who never made it out of the waterboarding room, for example. They just evaporated from the records. How many Navy Seals did this happen to?

anderson & sol: Which is precisely why

the legal team determined (prior to that) that waterboarding was LEGALLY NOT TORTURE as it was defined in the US Code (See above)!

sol
Good point, please elaborate on it,

anderson659
say you:
"Comment: Akagi, if waterboarding is torture,and illegal,"

This may be a better question:

Torture has been illegal in the USA for many, many years.

Why did the Senate voted Feb 2008 to make illegal the CIA use of waterboarding?

Anderson: Pa-lease! "How does one

parse that?"

You're going to get am answer in six (6) parts... 2000 words each!

Ugh!



Anderson: akagi suffering from OCD...

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder... He focuses on one thing and can't let go..

He's also very impressed with himself... likes to show off and doesn't get it that no one cares.


Akagi, A point
Akagi
Location: GA
Reply # 2
Date: May 20, 2009 - 5:45 PM EST Anderson
My response would be the same as my question to China when it violated various UN conventions it signed. If the US wants to torture, fine, but if so why did it sign and ratify the CAT...if the US has no intention of following them, why ratify then?"

Comment: Akagi, if waterboarding is torture,and illegal, then how do you reconcile the fact this same method has been used on tens of thousands of our military people in training for the last 25 years?

We also place our people in cages, throw them out of helicopters above the sea without a parachute, and make them sleep with and eat insects.

Is waterboarding, torture for enemy combatants, but not our military? How does one parse that?

Akagi 137
Point.

As I said, Reagan let it go for various reasons. I simply pointed it out and was not arguing that action based on that cause would have been advisable. It was, as were the Liberty and Pueblo incidents (among many others), a casus belli. Or for the limited in vocabulary: an Act of War.

As for deliberation or no, I personally think it was and the Stark was relatively lucky. The Vincennes incident was regrettable. And perhaps, 'evens the score' for the Embassy siege. Not saying that it does or was even justifiable, after all accidents happen. Accidents between the Armed forces of nation-states are dangerous, which was one of my points.

Akagi #121: Yes "armistice," thank you

I couldn't think of the word...

"... but the DPRK and the ROK are technically still at war."

Yeah, yeah, yeah... got it which was my POINT!

"Vietnam ended with the Paris Peace Accords and the US shamelessly decided not to enforce the violations by the North and basicallyy ran away with its tail between it's legs..."

Yeah, yeah, yeah... got it which was my POINT!


"Bush never had a plan what to do after Saddam and had no idea what the conditions of victory would be."

YOU don't know what Pres Bush... ie our Intel knew and didn't know... anymore than I know...

"As for torture, again, the CAT is very clear what torture is and is very clear that waterboarding would be torture and Article I..."

Again, that's your opinion....


Anderson
My response would be the same as my question to China when it violated various UN conventions it signed. If the US wants to torture, fine, but if so why did it sign and ratify the CAT...if the US has no intention of following them, why ratify then?


Dash
"You do recall this incident, no? An Iraqi pilot put an Exoset missile into the side of the USS Stark, killing 37 US Sailors. Saddam 'said' it was a mistake and the pilot punished."

Yes...and it was a mistake just as when the Americans shot down the Iranian jetliner. So, if the Stark was a justification for war with Iraq, when does the US plan to attack Israel over the USS Liberty? Which unlike the Stark seems to have been a deliberate attempt to sink the American ship when they knew damn well it was an American ship.


Akagi- On "torture

These are not The Marquis of Queensbury rules. I propose an experiment. 4,000 or so people died in 9/11, Lets ask the families this question:

If you knew waterboarding, or torture would have led to information that would have saved your loved one, would you have approved of those methods?

And a second question:

If you knew members of the CIA had techniques that could have been employed that would have saved your loved family member and did not use them because they may or may not have been against the law, would that have made your loss acceptable?

Care to speculate on the answers?

My response would be to not only waterboard him, waterboard his wife, kids and his dog if it will prevent the deaths of hundreds or thousands of innocents. And if you are squeamish about it hand me a can of Ginger ale, hold his head back while I shake up the can and pop the top under his nose. He would have wished he only would have been waterboarded.

Is opening a can of pop and sending carbonation up your nostrils torture ? I saw grown men shake in Juarez when a case of Ginger ale was delivered to the jail.

An Idiot Gesture #114:


Player: No, what's the PLAN to win?

Coach: WELL BUCK-O, DIDN'T THEY TEACH YOU ANYTHING?

Player: But HOW are we going to do that?

Coach: WE ALREADY HAVE PLAN -A, PLAN-B, AND PLAN-C... BUT, SINCE WE DON'T HAVE A CRYSTAL BALL, WE'RE GOING WITH PLAN -A BASED ON THE INTEL WE HAVE AT THE MOMENT.

HOWEVER, THAT PESKY OL' ENEMY JUST MIGHT TRY TO OUT-SMART US ... 'CAUSE I'M PRETTY SURE THEY HAVE THEIR PLAN -A, PLAN-B, AND PLAN-C.

SO, AND THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS WE LEARNED IN OFFICER SCHOOL, WE PLAN DAY BY DAY AND SOMETIMES HOUR BY HOUR, DEPENDING ON WHAT THE ENEMY DOES.

AND, JUST HOW STUPID ARE YOU TO EVEN HAVE TO ASK SUCH A STUPID QUESTION ANYWAY. IF YOU HAVE TO ASK THAT QUESTION, YOU'RE TOO STUPID TO BE IN THE MILITARY, AND YOU MUST BE AN INTELLECTUALLY LIMITED LIBERAL.

GET OUT OF MY SIGHT!


Akagi 132
You wrote:
'The no-fly zones were never authorized by the UN and in fact the Secretary-General called them illegal'

Actually, they were explicitly defined in the cease fire which ended Desert Storm, a cease fire ratified by the UN. Not that it matters; the UN does NOT trump Senate responsibility under the Constitution. It is nice to have UN support; but the President and Congress do not require it to act.

Now, since these no-fly zones over Iraq were explicitly defined in the Cease Fire agreement, their continued violation by the Iraqis constituted a legal causus beli (and one used by Clinton to his advantage in 1998 - or have you forgotten. I know most of the Dem leadership conveniently has).

Arguably, one could look to the missile strike on the Stark in 1987 for the initial causus beli between Iraq and the US. You do recall this incident, no? An Iraqi pilot put an Exoset missile into the side of the USS Stark, killing 37 US Sailors. Saddam 'said' it was a mistake and the pilot punished.

As they were usefully engaged in hostilities against Iran at the time, Reagan let it go.

As to Iran, we have causus beli against them as well. 1979 and the invasion/capture of our embassy anyone? Iranian weapons and reported special forces in Iraq more recently.

Kirk
"The dictater(sic) of Iraq did try to get uranim from Niger..."

A subject of great debate. The documents "proving" such are widely regarded to be forgeries.


Kirk
The no-fly zones were never authorized by the UN and in fact the Secretary-General called them illegal. And if I were the Iraqis and foreign aircraft were violating my airspace, I'd try to blow them out of the sky too. Think the US would tolerate the Chinese or Russians doing no-fly zones over say Iowa?

Anderson
"The driver for all of this Monday morning quarterbacking appears to be a personal political vendetta."

True and they should just drop it. The US did indeed torture, it had admitted as such, let's move on.

Sol
Since Saadi v Italy is not a US case not all that germane and the US has admitted to torture and witnesses employed by the US government have also testified that the US engaged in torture.

anderson659
Was reading your posts to akagi. Your words about the plans going to sh^t when the bullets start flying is corect. The phrase was first said I believe by Gen. Esienhower. Still very true.
As to akagi asurtion that Iraq was no threat, that is just false. They fired at our planes every day. We were the ones enforcing the no fly zone for the un. The dictater of Iraq did try to get uranim from Niger, as they have only 3 major exports,onions,goats and yellow cake. I find it hard to believe that he was there for goats, or onions. Also look at a map of the middle east. Iraq is very stratigic, Afganistan is not. If you want to make an impresion on the trible people of the middle east.You have to kick some butt, or they just ignore you.
Kirk

SEVERE/intentionally inflicted (2)

"intentionally inflicted"

{ Professionals from the CIA's Office of Medical Services
'QMS ) carefully evaluate detainees before any enhanced technique is authorized in order to ensure that the detainee "is not likely to suffer any severe physical or mental pain or suffering as a result of interrogation." ....In addition, QMS officials continuously monitor the detainee's condition
throughout any interrogation using enhanced-techniques, and the interrogation team will stop the use of particular techniques or the interrogation altogether if the detainee's medical or psychological condition indicates that the detainee might suffer significant physical or mental harm. .. QMS: has, in fact, prohibited the use-of certain techniques in the interrogations of certain detainees;
Thus, no technique is used in the interrogation of any detainee-,no matter how valuable the information the CIA believes the detainee has-if the medical and psychological evaluations or ongoing monitoring suggest that the detainee is likely to suffer serious harm.}

http://s3.amazonaws.com/propublica/assets/missing_memos/28O LCmemofinalredact30May05.pdf

How will you prove "intent" and, according to our laws, the burden of proof must be "beyond a reasonable doubt".

SEVERE/intentionally inflicted (1)
The United Nations Convention Against Torture, defines torture very plainly:

"Any act by which SEVERE pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person..."

{In Saadi v Italy (2008), the defendant, a terrorism suspect, was facing deportation and alleged torture should he be deported back to Tunisia. The Court said:

ill-treatment must attain a minimum level of SEVERITY .. The assessment of this minimum level of SEVERITY is relative; it depends on all the circumstances of the case, such as the duration of the treatment, its physical and mental effects ..
to determine ..ill-treatment should be qualified as torture,.. This distinction would appear to have been embodied in the Convention to allow the special stigma of torture to attach only to deliberate inhuman treatment causing very serious and cruel suffering.”}

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/T/Torture.aspx

SEVERE--Sharp; afflictive; distressing; violent; extreme; as, severe pain, anguish, fortune; severe cold.(Webster's dictionary)

For a conviction in a criminal court, the proof must be "beyond a reasonable doubt"

Please prove that waterboarding(as practiced by the CIA)caused SEVERE pain or suffering?

"intentionally inflicted"
(cont.)

Akagi
Your illustration is a good point. There are always reasons, personal, political and otherwise for events that others have decided for us. The truth of those decisions may remain hidden or obscured from us.

The driver for all of this Monday morning quarterbacking appears to be a personal political vendetta. Those driving that agenda have as much or more to answer for by sabotaging the war effort for their party ideology. The poster child for that is now Nancy Pelosi

In 1914 in the Balkans one 17 year old Serb with a pistol assassinated two members of royalty for his own personal political reasons and lit the fires of a war that cost 10 million lives, and led to another that cost even more.

One person.




Mr. Gerson
A very disturbing column. It seems that the left in this country always want to tear down our means to defend our selves. The facts are that with out the CIA/FBI work, we would have had another attack here at home. I just do not understand the the thinking behind this. Would you shoot the police officer there to help you, would you stop the firemen from putting out the fire? This is just sick perverted politics.
Kirk

Anderson
"I can only hope that no matter what is said, that those considerations were done based on the interests of the American people, even if they were partially wrong in others opinions."

Sadly, a good part of this was done for political reasons and perhaps even a personal vendetta, but often these type decisions are based on politics and even personal...Macarthur stressed his case to FDR for the Philippines against Nimitz not only I suppose he thought that the wise move in the war but his perosnal promiose to the Filipinos. Nimitz as you know wanted to bypass them and take Formosa (as it was known then)instead. MacArthur's choice was the wiser one.

Akagi, on Korea and Iraq
You post in part:

"there is no doubt the force requirements were heavily dictated by politics and not military need. Something many high ranking officers stated and paid the price for and the Bush administration was more inclined to believe evidence justifying the invasion than evidence justifying not."

Comment: Jack Hackworth before he died was highly critical of Bush and the Iraq war. Hackworth was of course the highest decorated American soldier of the Korean war. Hackworth over the years had little good to say about anything in the Pentagon.

Akagi, my point is this, no one knows what really went on behind the closed doors.

I can only hope that no matter what is said, that those considerations were done based on the interests of the American people, even if they were partially wrong in others opinions.

Roosevelt shares much blame for the WW2 conduct, and the wasting of thousands of lives. No war has a purity level to it.

People should move past the mistakes. George Marshall would turn over in his grave if he knew what these people were doing for post war history lessons.

John on Stratfor
You write:

"Anderson
How about you actually provide some of that Stratfor analysis. hmm? "

Comment: Go to the Stratfor website, pay the few hundred bucks to join, and then you can read all of the analysis you want from the past, and into the future. I do not provide the fruits of my hard earned labor to someone who has no intention of learning from it.

"And if every analysis you have read reaches the same conclusions you have reached, then you need to expand your reading list."

Comment: No John I dont need to expand my list because all are judged to be reliable and have a proven track record for accuracy.

Or is accuracy and truth irrelevant to you unless it fits YOUR self evident truths?

Anne
There has never been a treaty to end the war in Korea. There was an armistice, but the DPRK and the ROK are technically still at war. Vietnam ended with the Paris Peace Accords and the US shamelessly decided not to enforce the violations by the North and basicallyy ran away with its tail between it's legs...yes you can mostly blame this on the US Congress controlled by the Democrats, but also on Gerald Ford.

Bush never had a plan what to do after Saddam and had no idea what the conditions of victory would be. As for torture, again, the CAT is very clear what torture is and is very clear that waterboarding would be torture and Article I is not the only article the US violated and the US government itself admitted to the UN it engaged in torture in Iraq, in Afghanistan and at GITMO. There is no debate that the US engaged in torture.

Anderson:

While there could be justification for the attack on Iraq--even if Bush was warned about excercising this option, there is no doubt the force requirements were heavily dictated by politics and not military need. Something many high ranking officers stated and paid the price for and the Bush administration was more inclined to believe evidence justifying the invasion than evidence justifying not.

Really John? No way.
John, you post:

"Yippy Skippy
Conservatives would not be such a laughing stock if you stopped posting blatant frauds as if they were facts."

Comment: Nice HuffPo conversation starter but far far from the truth.

Perhaps John learning the difference between disagreement on facts, and fraud, should be a priority for you. Stat with the basics, let me help you here:

America is a great country. Say it 500 times a day until it becomes second nature. Then substitute the wored God for America and repeat. There John, that should help.

Ugly reality
Barack Obama gained an early primary season lead by promising to force the Marines in Iraq to surrender earlier than Hillary.

By promising to surrender, he became the Commander in Chief.

Anderson
How about you actually provide some of that Stratfor analysis. hmm?

And if every analysis you have read reaches the same conclusions you have reached, then you need to expand your reading list.


John
I am beginning to think you are simple, "no threats exist'" really!

Sec State Clinton testifying this AM,

Clinton referred Wednesday to a host of threats to the United States that she said are "daunting."

John and his F-
John wrtes a gem of an example of logical failure:

"AMerica should not develop plans, strategies or policies based on threats that do not exist."

Comment: Hey John, how do you know a threat exists? Is there some sort of public announcement that is required? how do you define a threat John ? Would some people say an issue is a threat, others may not, would not it be wise to plan for the possibility there is a threat?

Better safe than sorry?


"Such assessments shoudl be based on the best available reality based information."

Comment: You missed the part about the dynamics of information. Today may be a threat, tomorrow not. Threats can emerge overnight without ANY prior warning.Your statement is plain ignorant.


"As we see here, references to non-existent threats preclude discussions of real threats."

Comment; Professor John lectures the audience. His sentence conveys no meaning or context to actual reality and the dynamics of threats or intelligence.

As Wobbie would say John, F- for you.

Anne
"How many times have we heard drivel like that??"

I don't know, but fairly accurate...TH does have a good deeal of echo chamber qualities to it, but this is hardly a trait of conservative sites...Democratic Underground and Daily Kos do the same...the people with the same ideas posting to each other engaged in a form of intellectual incest. But unlike TH, DU and Daily Kos will ban people with minority views and this too is not a trait only of liberal sites as (un)Free Republic bans liberal posters that break the group think orthodoxy of that site.

Anne--just stop
"There are only THREE (3) "exit strategies."

1. WIN... the other enemy surrenders - ie Japan. Recommended!

2. Surrender... which is pretty much what we did in Vietnam when we just left. NOT Recommended!

3. Treaty... which is what ended the Korean war. NOT Recommended!


This "exit strategy...no plan" is one of the dumbest things the dumb-o-crats (and akagi) ever came up with!"

This is probably your dumbest post ever, and that says a lot.

Player: What's the plan to win coach?
Coach: To win.
Player: No, what's the PLAN to win?
Coach: To win.
Player: But HOW are we going to do that?
Coach: By winning. Would you rather lose? Forfeit? Of course not. So we'll win. That's the plan! That way, we can't lose!

Yippy Skippy
Conservatives would not be such a laughing stock if you stopped posting blatant frauds as if they were facts.

The Occidental College lie is demolished at snopes http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/occidental.asp

Anne- on John the lib
Johns whole response is personal conjecture.

Every analysis I have read about the Iraq war and I mean people in the know like Stratfor have offered the same general conclusions. The only people who fraw the conslusions John does are infected with BDS.


John just knows more than all of the professionals who were there, and who do analysis for a living.John probably knows more than the pope and God, just ask him.

David
I remain confused. You keep juxtaposing claims about backpack nukes with information about other nukes.

Plans for nuclear weapons exist on the internet. Actual plans for back pack nukes are not posted because such plans do not exist.

AMerica should not develop plans, strategies or policies based on threats that do not exist. Such assessments shoudl be based on the best available reality based information. As we see here, references to non-existent threats preclude discussions of real threats.






A few things
The claim is he claimed to be a foreign student from Indonesia. Obama wasn't born in Indonesia and even if somehow his step father acquired Indonesian citizenship for him when he moved their as a child, he wouldn't have lost his US citizenship. Even though Indonesia did (under the 1958 law) and today's current law required one to renounce any citizenship in another state, the US would have never recognized such.

A dual national is eligible to be president of the United States. If Hsiao Bi-Khim (born in Kobe, Japan and raised in Tainan, Taiwan) had lived in the US for the 14-years required by the Constitution, she would have been eligible for the presidency. She though returned to Taiwan after grad school (spending her high school, college and grad school years in the US) and has since given up her US citizenship for political reasons.

The beating this dead horse over and over makes you all look like a bunch of raving lunatics...perhaps in this case preception is reality.

Just In
From testimony this AM by Sec State Hillary Clinton.

Without commenting directly on the missile launch reports, Clinton referred Wednesday to a host of threats to the United States that she said are "daunting."

Clinton reiterated that the Obama administration opposes Iran getting a nuclear weapons capability and that it is relying for now on diplomatic pressure to stop it.

She described a nuclear capability as an "extraordinary threat." And Clinton said that the U.S. goal is "to persuade the Iranian regime that they will actually be less secure if they proceed with their nuclear weapons program."

Persuade, hmmm does that mean hand wringing and harsh language!

Anderson: John-the-lib says...


"People tend to spend thier time on sites where they agree with teh primary thrust of the site and the comments. It results in people seeking affirmation rather than information and graduallylosign the ability to objectively consider any set of facts or information.

"That's why I, a liberal, come to TH, a conservative site."


How many times have we heard drivel like that??

I lost track a year or so ago... HA HA HA HA




ANderson

You are incorrect. The Iraq debacle was NOT a result of unintended or unanticipated consequences. The Iraq debacle was the result of a) launching an unnecessary attack, b) relying on politically motivated evaluations of force needs, and c) ignoring virtually all evidence or opinion that did not support the preconceived notion of the value and conduct of the attack.

For example, the existing manual for controlling an insurgency during an occupation called for many, many more troops than were ever committed. When the commander who wrote the manual voiced his concern, he was ignored and passed over. Who wrote the manual that was ignored? David Petraeus.

Now the right wing acts like he discovered some magical new idea. He was there all along advocating the same policies. But he was ignored by the Bush administration for years, at the cost of thousands of America lives.




anderson659: EXCELLENT POINT!

There are only THREE (3) "exit strategies."

1. WIN... the other enemy surrenders - ie Japan. Recommended!

2. Surrender... which is pretty much what we did in Vietnam when we just left. NOT Recommended!

3. Treaty... which is what ended the Korean war. NOT Recommended!


This "exit strategy...no plan" is one of the dumbest things the dumb-o-crats (and akagi) ever came up with!



John
The likely ability of Iran building a small weapon may be big or non-existant, I simply don't have that pay grade. That the plans exist on the internet is real, do the plans actually allow one too successfully build an operable weapon, again above my grade but, the point I think is that you have a regime in Iran that will have the weapons grade material and certainly the desire to use it. There is no shortage of clips available on the net of Ahmadina whats his name declaring their intention of wiping Israel off the map. That is a very real existential threat to Israel, not a April fools joke. They hate us only a fraction less than they hate Israel.

It also is not farfetched to imagine the smuggling into this country of a weapon. Terrorists are if nothing else very cleaver and resourceful and to underestimate them again would be foolish.

Butterfingers, Reply # 95
Perspective? I wonder if you heard that Occidental College in California finally, under duress, released records of Barack Obama showing that he applied for financial aid as a foreign student? If you haven't it is no surprise because the media, including Fox, has completely ignored it.

As far as ascribing some darker purpose to his actions, you bet I do. I suggest that you step back and think about what he has done in a few months in office. He has initiated fiscal policy that will bankrupt this country. He has stated openly that he wants 84 billion dollars annually of American tax dollars to go to the UN to "help alleviate world poverty."

Never mind the billions this country already sends overseas for that purpose. When this guy talks about leveling the playing field he is talking about lowering the American standard of living and elevating the standard of living in third world nations. Americans fought and died to provide the standard of living we enjoy today.

These are not new ideas. They are Marxist ideas. You will never hear barack Obama or any liberal mention the fact that most of the money that goes to third world nations never reaches the people. Murderous dictators who control those governments simply take that money and make themselves richer. Some of them use the money to fund their armies, which too frequently slaughter citizens who do not belong to the tribe or group favored by the dictator.

Yeah! I hate this guy. he does have a dark purpose. The same purpose every Marxist/Communist/ Socialist/Progressive have had for over a hundred years.

Anderson
Actually, there is a powertful force at work here on TH, Huffpo or any other partisan site.

People tend to spend thier time on sites where they agree with teh primary thrust of the site and the comments. It results in people seeking affirmation rather than information and graduallylosign the ability to objectively consider any set of facts or information.

That's why I, a liberal, come to TH, a conservative site. The real quesiton is why conservatives come here at all, or why liberals go to a liberal site.

Whomever the idiot was who asked

for a link... Here's two (2)...

I copied directly from the law.cornel.edu link.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002340--- -000-.html


http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C113C.txt


And believe me, the LAWYERS who made the determination that waterboarding did not fit within the description (definition) of torture know a lot more than any of the you who think you "know it all."





Akagi- Your posts
One line:

"Poor planning (and as for a exit strategy...no plan) and poor execution. Iraq is a case book example how not to run an occupation."

Comment: Maybe so, but even if the operation was run as badly as YOU say, and many agree with that assessment, the US still managed to find a way to do what was necessary to swing the pendulum back.

What happened was what happens in all wars, the law of unintended consequences reared its ugly head.

It does NOT matter how well you plan something in war, the moment the shots are fired, almost all plans become scrap. You can NOT plan what the enemy WILL DO. That is a component of what happened here.

Ever hear of improvise,! improvise! Something taught to elite soldiers because no matter how good you plan something it has NO guarantee of success.

When you speak of poor planning, no matter what plan we had, it probably would have been uselss looking at how it played out now.

Stratfor has done several analysis on this as well as others.

David
I ask because, as far as I know, there is no reliable information to support the idea that backpack size nukes have ever been developed by anybody.

Given that the current nuclear powers have undoubtedly tried to create them and were not successful, its a stretch to suggest that Iran, which has not yet created a nuclear weapon of any sort, will be able to do so at any time in the foreseeable future.

But, you said "So the feasibility of Iran having the ability to make a small weapon is remote, really! The plans are available over the internet, fissile material is all that is missing and the Iranians have 6000 centrifuges twirling away as we write." All that is missing is the fissile material? Even you don't believe that.

David
Again...it doesn't matter what Holder thinks either. The US admitted to the UN it engaged in toture, it has allowed subjects to be sent to countries where it knows toture is conducted for the express purpose of having those prisoners tortured, it has used waterboarding which under the terms of the UN CAT is torture.

Now as to what the US should now do? Turn Bush over to the UN? No. The US tortured, admit it (it has) and move on.


Reba: There are probably hundreds of

links ALL referring to an AP wire, but I can't find a link to the (supposed) actual AP wire story, nor is there anything on any of the sites focused on Obozo's eligibility.

For a myriad of very logical reasons, I believe there IS something to the eligibility issue, but until we have something that goes back to Occidental or the AP wire story, I'm not getting too excited.

It's only a matter on time, I'm sure.







Reply to Fred
Anderson, I'm here to ask you the same?
Why are you here?

Why do so many here have an agenda of anger, or down-right hate?

You don't see it? How can you not?

"Most of the articles here are written with disdain for fair and balanced reporting, for intelligent consideration of fact [as in sharing the source of said fact], and the overwhelming premise of this whole site is to foment anti-Democrat, anti-Liberal emotions. "

Comment:You open with a false dichotomy. The articles posted here are opinion pieces for the most part, and most stand even the strongest tests of factual integrity. If you disagree on the facts does not make them wrong. As to posters comments, the Daily Kos and HuffPo have made national news for their hateful posts.

"Why are emotions so important to this site? Why is anger, resentment and disdain the highest form of journalism offered here?"

Comment:What you state here is an example of what YOU feel to be a self evident fact, when in reality your personal description is NOT shared by most if not all legitimate journalists and bloggers.

I come here Fred because many MSM and YOUR liberal ideology based sites, are merely echo chambers of delusion. Repeating lies until someone believes them wihout debate. By the way Fred, I can not post at the HuffPo because they CENSOR anything that does not support liberal thought. That alone invalidates YOUR entire post about TH

Sorry Fred, your personal feelings about this site do NOT translate into reality.

David
Not as easy as you think. Took China nearly 30 years to get weapons small enough to make a really workable SSBN system and much of that information it either stole from the US or the US was stupid enough to allow the information into the public domain and China harvested it.



John
"Waterboarding is torture specifically becuase it DOES fit the definition you provide."

Who cares what that idiot Anne thinks, it fits the definition of the UN CAT which is US law.

Waterboarding is torture and illegal on the basis of US LAW.

John
No I don't think small weapons are available, but depending on the Iranian regimes ability to defer their own gratification ie not using a nuke as soon as they get, they could concievably build them.

Reports are that they are 6-12 months away from having enough nuclear material to make weapons, if that is accurate, then the window to stop them is getting smaller everyday. Once you have weapons grade material there are lots of different things that they can do with it bith big and small.

David
"There has to be INTENT to do induce severe pain..."

Sorry. 100% false.

From Article I of the UN CAT "Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession..."

Waterboarding would no doubt qualify...something that the US admitted to the UN back in 2005. It also violated several other articles of the CAT and since the US ratified it in 1994, the CAT is the Supreme Law of the land, meaning a violation of the CAT is not only a violation of international law, but of US law.

This doesn't mean I support trials...let it rest and let Bush and the rest live free...all people that engage in criminal acts aren't charged and I think it best this mess be left alone. I don't think the US needs to go down the same road as the ROK who put both Chun Doo-hwan and Roh Tae-woo into prison and I am fairly sure Chen Shui-bian may soon find himself in a prison cell too (he is in detention...again).

David
Are you sayign that backpack nuke plans are available?

Akagi
So the feasibility of Iran having the ability to make a small weapon is remote, really! The plans are available over the internet, fissile material is all that is missing and the Iranians have 6000 centrifuges twirling away as we write.

Anne
No Anne this was as simple as seeing the consequencies of playing chicken with a CSX train.

US (and it was almost all US) forces that invaded Iraq were a fraction of the forces that removed Iraq from Kuwait. Coalition forces in 1991 were 900,000 and they had no intention of going anywhere near the capital or even as far north as Basra. The US invasion in 2003 was 300,000, a 1/3 of the Gulf War forces.

The US had far too few troops to secure the country and those that stated so were scolded by the likes of Rummy. Most officers that valued their continued service stayed silent. Yes a roughly 1:1 ratio with the US better armed and better trained, the US was going to win that fight, but it wasn't going to be able to control the country once it got rid of the regime--you might want to note that before the war many of the architects of the Gulf War warned Bush not to go into Iraq---he didn't listen. This isn't being a monday morning QB, this is a stubborn fool rushing in where angels fear to tread. Don't you think someone not completely stupid would understand the likely consequencies of letting the army melt away, letting massive amounts of weapons vanish into thin air and then removing from service anyone with connection to the Baath Party? Don't you think it would have been a wise move to have enough troops to keep the army and their weapons from vanishing? To secure the borders with places like Iran and Syria? To keep people who knew how to keep the water and electric power on no matter their prior party memberships employed?

This has nothing to do with hindsight...all of this was easily predictable.

Poor planning (and as for a exit strategy...no plan) and poor execution. Iraq is a case book example how not to run an occupation.

Torture
There has to be INTENT to do induce severe pain, intent is the key and Attorney General Holder was forced to admit their was no intent, Next case.

iranian missiles
Akagi: I didn't say that they did, that they were working on it or that it would be easy. I mentioned their subs and that solid fuel rockets make wonderful SLBS as a matter of concern.

You look at a tank and assume it works.

oneday: I was referring to the Revolutionary Guard - the actual power in Iran.


Rick
You trivialize something to demean it, apparently the Supreme Court wants a look, I do not think that to be trivial.

Rick
I am not living in fear and will not but common sense tells me this world is becoming more dangerous and to be vigilant is wise. To let the nation of Iran join the nuclear club would be unwise and foolish.

David, I have to run, but
there is no explanation for the inane question.

It's a made up conspiracy, just like the "Swift Boat" lies done to Kerry.

This is how ultra right-wing liars do propaganda.

That's all there is to it.

When a conspiracy is made, where lies permiate via a mass source like the internet, the fire-storm spread of the lie goes unstopped, because, when there is no actual fact, there is no possible source to argue against it.

See that?

Why would anyone find a lie to fight a lie?

Why would anyone in their right mind want to fabricate evidence to prove something they don't have to prove?

Does that make any sense to you?

Obama posted his birth certificate on line and the conspiracy writes it's a forgery.

Get it? No matter what is done to show how wrong the conspiracy is, they just make a change to counter the corrective measure of those telling the truth.

Any sense of this reality reaching you?

Gotta run.

Anne
I dont think you have read what you post.

Waterboarding is a technique that simulates drowning. Your definition specifically says that torture can be "the threat of imminent death."

Waterboarding is torture specifically becuase it DOES fit the definition you provide.


Rick
Rick those are not my argument they were from attorney general Holder in a sub-committee hearing of the Judiciary Comm last week, and questions to him from Rep Lungren. No straw man involved. Atty Gen Holder was forced to admit at the end that intent is the key, which has essentailly destroyed the governments ability to prosecute anyone since there was no intent to torture. Next case.

And as far as smuggling contraband into the US apparently it is easy just ask the drug mules, but lets assume they smuggled chemical weapons in instead of nuclear, still a mess. Inanity would be any argument that proported that the Iranian backed terrorist would not crave such an opportunity.

On Drudge right now is a report of Irans latest test of a surface to surface missile that can reach Israel and another report of one of their Generals disclosing that it will take only 11 days to wipe out Israel. After that who do you think they will direct their ire towards.

Rob
"Far fenched?" No...if in a Clancy novel, but in reality...yeah, pretty much.


Good Anne, yuh show a source.
Glad to read that. I see you misinterpret the fact, but I still have the same ability to read the source, because you allow me to have it.

What you do not think is harm, I do.

What you do not this inflicts pain, I do.

I also go along with President Ronald Reagan who spoke out that torture will not be used by America.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1079/is_n2137_v88/ai _6742034/

"... By giving its advice and consent to ratification of this Convention, the Senate of the United States will demonstrate unequivocally our desire to bring an end to the abhorrent practice of torture."

"RONALD REAGAN"



Dash
"Not to mention the slight problem that the Iranians have subs and solid fuel rockets make wonderful SLBMs."

There is no evidence that any Iranian sub now in service can fire nuclear armed missiles or any form of SLBM. The Iranians first don't have a nuclear weapon and second they haven't got a nuclear weapon suitible for SLBMs. The Iranians don't have any thing like the PLAN Xia and Jin-class nor anything like the JL-2 and JL-1 missiles nor any nuclear warheads to arm them even if they had them. Suitcase bombs? SSBNs? It would be nice if people would restrict Iran to its actual capability and not their fantasies.






Rick
You ever heard of a boat. It would take some engineering to make it work, but how about this scenerio:

They figure out how to launch a missle from off shore and vaporize a coastal city. Never having to set foot in this country.

Far fenched?

No Dash, I saw a video of the rocket
launch on national broadcast t.v. this morning. I know as much about it as you do.

I'm not afraid though.

I have a lot of family in America. We go back to the 1600's in one line, and the others from either the early 1800's or mid 1800's. So, I know what America is, and why I'm here.

I do not fear!

I will not fear, and I will fight those who want to fight me. If any nation or group attacks my nation, I will support response. Until such time, I believe in strength of our military is already established and that our resources will be there if needed. That makes us safe.

Not eroding my liberties with wire taps, or forced wording of my opinion. I do not espouse any one source, I take what is common sense and pertinent to actual fact, check sources and determine with considered opinion what stance I will chose to take.

How about you?

Dash
"In the hands of a 'government' determined to spread the word of Allah by whatever means necessary."

Phrases like that shed more heat than light. Please explain where you see the power in the Iranian government, particularly in view of the coming elections. Can you be specific about what and who constitute the Iran government instead of just putting it in quotation marks? It's not an ironical institution, it's real.

Rick

Reba, where do you corroberate inanity?
All that conspiracy is nonsense built by those who think the Swift Boat liars actually told the truth.

When will you consider that it's inane?

Rick, I am not a big believer in most conspiracy stuff, but the fact that his campaign devoted a lot of resources to keep his records private seems to require a very good explanation. As of now there has been none I am aware of. I would love to hear an explanation if for no other reason than another opportunity to hear the tortured and obfuscated logic of the left, always entertaining.

akagi: :this wasn't simply a blunder

but gross incompetence."

In YOUR incompetent opinion! Always easy to do Monday morning quarter backing...





Rick
Well if you think his analogy is hilarious, then you shouldn't get bent out of shape when it's returned.

Waterboarding does NOT fit the legal

definition of "torture!"

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 113C > § 2340

§ 2340. Definitions

(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;

(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—

(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;

(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;

(C) the threat of imminent death; or

(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and

(3) "United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.


David, you make an inane argument.
The straw-man of training to actual interrogation is nonsense.

In what world is that an acceptable argument?

If yours, rethink it.


As far as a suitcase bomb? How do you suppose they'll get that suitcase here? On a plane, boat or walking across the border of Canada?

Yuh, think there will be not one indication from any source that such an action might be coming to occur? Such as the missed signals for the 9/11 attack? Yuh know there were signals that were missed and ignored, right?

As a conspirasist and being afraid of a nation so far away, yuh must be in tune with how our intelligence services make us safe? Right?

So, why are you worried?

Just because some of those who are not happy with Obama will let them get here and blow you up?


David
"Rick how far away do you need to be from a smuggled into this country Iranian suitcase nuclear weapon to be safe?"

And does Iran have any of these? Will it ever? What Iran is claimed to be developing is a traditional nuclear weapon--it will be huge and heavy and it can't be smuggled in a suitcase. It can be placed as a warhead on a missile, but no Iranian missile can hit the US.

I suppose it can smuggle such in a container and place it on a container ship, but since the US has what...9000 or so warheads, why would Iran do this? Iran is actually a rational state and they would have no desire to see their regime snuffed out because it attacked the US (or Israel as far as that goes).


Rick #61
'They (Iran) can't touch you here'

I take it your 'credible, reliable' sources haven't mentioned that the Iranians just fired a solid fuel rocket with a range of 1200 miles or so. Enough reach to hit Israel and Southern Europe. Not to mention the slight problem that the Iranians have subs and solid fuel rockets make wonderful SLBMs.

In the hands of a 'government' determined to spread the word of Allah by whatever means necessary.

No, Kos probably hasn't mentioned that.

Anne
I am fully aware of Kerry, Hillary et al who did as well as Russia, France, the UN, the Brits, etc and while there were better options than the invasion I don't even fault that. I fault how poorly planned and poorly executed it was and how poorly the occupation was run and how complete idiots were put in charge of the occupation. Yes as Anderson points out, there are blunders in war, but this wasn't simply a blunder but gross incompetence.

Reba, where do you corroberate inanity?
All that conspiracy is nonsense built by those who think the Swift Boat liars actually told the truth.

When will you consider that it's inane?

Rick
'Why are you so afraid of a nation so far away?'

Rick how far away do you need to be from a smuggled into this country Iranian suitcase nuclear weapon to be safe? Just askin.

Reba: Let me check my sources...BRB
.

Torture
As reported by Andrew McCarthy at NRO

There was a little noticed bombshell in Washington’s waterboarding melodrama last week. And it wasn’t Nancy Pelosi’s implosion in a Capitol Hill press room, where she yet again tried to explain her inexplicable failure to protest the CIA’s “torturing” of detainees. No, this one detonated in the hearing room of the House Judiciary Committee. There, Attorney General Eric Holder inadvertently destroyed the warped basis for his claim that waterboarding, as administered by the CIA, amounted to torture....
Rep. Lungren pointed out that if the attorney general truly believes “waterboarding is torture,” he must also think we torture our own Navy SEALs and other special-operations personnel when we waterboard them as part of their training. “No not in the legal sense,” countered Holder. You see, said he, it’s “a fundamentally different thing,” because

we’re doing something for training purposes to try to equip them with the tools to, perhaps, resist torture techniques that might be used on them. There is not the intent to do that which is defined as torture — which is to inflict serious bodily or mental harm. It’s for training. It’s different.

But it’s not different because “it’s for training.” Look at the torture statute (Sections 2340 and 2340A of the federal penal code) and try to find a “training” exception. There isn’t one. What removes an act from the ambit of torture (besides lack of severe pain) is intent. Lungren pressed this point, and Holder admitted that the training was “not torture in the legal sense because we’re not doing it with the intention of harming these people physically or mentally.” Intent, he acknowledged, was the key question.

ANY COMMENTS ON THIS SNOPES ARTICLE?
Subject: Smoking gun finally found?
AP- WASHINGTON D.C. - In a move certain to fuel the debate over Obama’s qualifications for the presidency, the group “Americans for Freedom of Information” has Released copies of President Obama’s college transcripts from Occidental College. Released today, the transcript indicates that Obama, under the name Barry Soetoro, received financial aid as a foreign student from Indonesia as an undergraduate at the school. The transcript was released by Occidental College in compliance with a court order in a suit brought by the group in the Superior Court of California. The transcript shows that Obama (Soetoro) applied for financial aid and was awarded a fellowship for foreign students from the Fulbright Foundation Scholarship program.
This document would seem to provide the smoking gun that many of Obama’s detractors have been seeking.
In a related matter, under growing pressure from several groups, Justice Antonin Scalia announced that the Supreme Court agreed on Tuesday to hear arguments concerning Obama’s legal eligibility to serve as President in a case brought by Leo Donofrio of New Jersey. This lawsuit claims Obama's dual citizenship disqualified him from serving as president. Donofrio’s case is just one of 18 suits brought by citizens demanding proof of Obama’s citizenship or qualification to serve as president.

Gary Kreep of the United States Justice Foundation has released the results of their investigation of Obama’s campaign spending. This study estimates that Obama has spent upwards of $950,000 in campaign funds in the past year with eleven law firms in 12 states for legal resources to block disclosure of any of his personal records.
Mr. Kreep indicated that the investigation is still ongoing but that the final report will be provided to the U.S. Attorney General, Eric Holder. Mr. Holder has refused to comment on the matter. (End of Quote from Snopes on April 29, 2009)
Can anyone here collaborate this?

Anne
ey Freddie: No one actually makes

you come to TH do they?"

-----------

You totally missed the point, as usual. I find it actually interesting and similar to watching something exotic and strange, albeit a little depressing when you think about the ramifications. (It explains to me how ordinary people become executioners, camp guards, torturers, mobs, and lynching parties, and how they always feel, in the midest of it, that they are serving their country, their leaders, their gods, them selves. It's the banality that Hannah Arendt wrote about, but writ large.)

Why do yuh suppose so many voted to
forcefully intervene in Iran?

Why are you so afraid of a nation so far away?

They can't touch you here.

Why do you want us to go to war with Iran?

Rob, yuh gotta have laughed a little?
I don't think yuh all are like monkey's at the zoo. But, some of yuh act like yuh are.

I think his analogy is hilarious.

Hey Fred
"This heart-felt post will result in the usual name-calling and insult, I realize, saying these things on TH is a little like provoking a cage full of monkeys at the zoo."

If your going to whine about name calling, maybe you shouldn't be the first to do it.

Ya think?

Hey Freddie: No one actually makes

you come to TH do they?

Like Rick, if you don't like what you read, then don't come here... :-)





Fred: 12:08pm [DEAD ON]
Exactly Fred.

I've been responding to the fear you mention for a long time.

I see it as quite dangerous, especially when I read those who think any means necessary to restore their version of reality is acceptable.

That referes to those here who blather on about how the Constitution oath they took supercedes and common sense.

Rick
I don't know how long you've been posting, but you might want to know that Anne is famous for being the perfect, totally knee-jerk reactionary that I was describing - never a fact, an idea, or a civil question, just insults hurled like sh!t-balls at anyone outside the bars. She does this all day long, every day. Kind of interesting, if you think about it. Kind of sad.

Hey, Anne, even better you go away and
intelligence here goes up exponentially.

Anderson's question
"Comment: Why are YOU here then Fred ?"

Curiousity. I enjoy sociology and politics and I come here to see if my observations coincide with what I actually read on these threads.

I think that fear is at the base of rage, hatred and anxiety. I also think that fear is the result of being susceptible, for various reasons, to every hyper-emotional and fantasy that comes down the pike. But I also think there are people who get off on it.

Fear on TH existed long before Obama, among conservatives, it attaches itself to whatever is the outrage du jour. Politicans know it makes people malleable and are good at manipulating these outrages to their own agendas (until recently, anyway). Fear is thrilling, like wondering if swine flu is going to turn the world into a post-apocalyptic movie. Unfortunately, in times of crisis it causes people to do really bad things while using their rage and fear to justify them. Torture, ethnic cleansing, captial punishment are all praised on TH, provided it's to the people TH posters are afraid of.

Dangerous, but kind of fascinating.




Hey Rick: I've got just the solution

for you.

DON'T COME TO TOWN HALL! :-)


Now, how easy is that? :-)

Chow!!




Anderson, I'm here to ask you the same?
Why are you here?

Why do so many here have an agenda of anger, or down-right hate?

You don't see it? How can you not?

Most of the articles here are written with disdain for fair and balanced reporting, for intelligent consideration of fact [as in sharing the source of said fact], and the overwhelming premise of this whole site is to foment anti-Democrat, anti-Liberal emotions.

Why are emotions so important to this site? Why is anger, resentment and disdain the highest form of journalism offered here?

Akagi, "P" has a valid point
You posted to "p"

P
"If Iraq has done nothing else, it's drawn the attention, time and resources of terrorists worldwide there, rather than attacking the homeland..."

"That is total BS too. Because the US went off into its foolish adventure in Iraq that keeps the terrorists from attacking the US?"

Comment: "p" is generally correct. The terrosrists saw an opportunity to exploit a situation and poured resources into Iraq to defeat the USA. They lost vast amounts of fighters that had come from everywhere to fight the US.

The terrorist organizations also served notice to the people what their brand is about, and dramatically diminished their perceptions throughout the arab world..

These are not individual assumptions. The views of "p" are echoed by Stratfor and others.

Pakistan helped create and birth the Taliban, and its offshoots. Now it has no choice but to deal with the problem it created and supported.

Iraq was a major tactical and strategic blunder for the terrorists. Hard to argue the US did any better, but it did,

Iraq war is no different than other wars for blunders. Every one has many by both sides.

Odious problem of ODS
yuh'all hating Obama have Obama Deranged Syndrome!

He's Commander in Chief now, and yuh'all better get that straight!

He's your constitutionally elected Head of State. If you don't like the policy that's one thing, but hating the man is ridiculous.

I'm a Christian trying to believe that it's the love of Jesus to aspire to. What I read from supposed Christians here is so far from that it fits the example of the Pharasee. Yuh'all can't stand there acting like yur'all better at doing all these things, when you're not doing them.

What's it gonna be, you gonna act like a Christian or like a Pharasee?

akagi #44: Just MORE lunatic liberal

twisting...

Would you like us to post ALL THE links showing ALL the dumb-c-crats who went on record saying that Saddam was dangerous and had WMDs???

Would you like us to post ALL THE links showing ALL COUNTRIES that also believed Saddam was dangerous and had WMDs???

Give it a rest!


Dear Fred:
Fred a couple of comments, you posted to barbara:

barbara
One of the outstanding characeteristics of conservative right-wingers is their penchant for seeing conspiracies. Another is their total reliance on crackpot websites together with their disdain for books, history, literature, and genuine scholarship (elitist).

Comment: I suppose you liberals think the daily Kos, Huff Po and the anarchist sites are all educational. The disdian for academics is real. I give you Dr. Douglas who posts here as the poster child for elitism. The rest of your post in that paragraph is self delusional and a fallacy.

"If I had a nickel for all of the birth certificate-communist conspiracy dementos who post for the right wing, I would be sunning on the Southern shores of France or wandering around the British Museum instead of typing on this sorry site. "

Comment: Why are YOU here then Fred ? if this is such a sorry site? If what you say is true that right wingers are all crackpots and consipracy people, what are YOU worried about?

Or Fred, could it be just more projection behavior on your part?

Fred_Il: STUFF IT! You're nuts!
.

The Intelligence Identities
Protection Act made it a federal crime to knowingly reveal the identity of a CIA agent who has conducted covert roles overseas within five years of the disclosure.

Plame was never "covert" and she didn't call within the 5yr. time frame... akagi is right... "IIPA didn't apply to her."

And Plame has nothing to do with this anyway... it's a liberal ruse to avoid discussing the REAL issue.





To violate this law, the person who disclosed the agent's identity must have been aware that the agent was "covert" at the time of the disclosure.

P
"If Iraq has done nothing else, it's drawn the attention, time and resources of terrorists worldwide there, rather than attacking the homeland..."

That is total BS too. Because the US went off into its foolish adventure in Iraq that keeps the terrorists from attacking the US? Iraq was a secular, Arab Socialist state and Iraq became a prime PR gem for the Islamists--who hated Saddam. The US removed a key enemy of theirs, gave it a propaganda coup over the abuse Iraqi prisoners, the rape of Iraqi schoolgirls by US troops and the like and fell into a popular Muslim narrative--US wants Arab oil, US is at war with Islam. And not only that a good part of Iraq is run by allies of Iran now. Iraq has to be one of the most boneheaded moves in military history. You don't think the terrorists can't find the US on a map? The reasons that the terrorists are in Iraq is the US did stupid things to allow them in--not securing the border and allowing the army and a good bit of Iraqi weapons to simply vanish.

Before the US invaded and occupied Iraq, there were only two terrorists groups operating in Iraq--the MEK, an anti-Iranian group and the PKK and anti-Iraqi/anti-Turkish Kurdish group. The PKK is socialist and the MEK is more socialist than Islamic and it supports women rights--neither can be seen as Islamists. There was no Al Qaeda until the US decided to invade and topple Saddam. The Iraqi invasion hasn't made the US safer, it has made it less safe.

Fred
As opposed to MSNBC, CNN, and the Kos or HuffPo. Not to mention the NYT?

One more post, Butter
You can see here that the imperative for posting is not to exchange ideas but to elaborate on how much you hate -- like Once a Marine you must avoid addressing impersonal issues, and turn your response into personal insult. This way, you don't have to really know anything or have any facts at hand.

And, you don't have to be particularly good at insult and expressions of hatred - just have a list of names and epithets at hand and lots and lots of time to sit at your computer while your brain shrivels up.

Butterfingers
Trying to argue for civility, common sense and perspective on this site is like asking for a case of smallpox. I'm sure you will get many more responses of hate-posts, name calling, accusations of everything from troll-conspiracy-dom to being Satan in disguise to pederasty just for trying to be reasonable. It's not allowed here.

Fortunately for Democrats, this is exactly the kind of thing that is imploding the GOP, so if you are a moderate I urge you to take a long hard look at what a Republican vote will mean in the next election. I send these posts to my moderate and independent friends all the time, as a warning.

Fred
Reading your vacuous commentary is a torture that makes "waterboarding" pale in comparison.

One more thing
Only four in the Senate voted against the IIPA and one of those four is the current Vice-President of the United States.

She was
"Valerie Plame never was a covert operative..."

But not when she was outted, but a desk jockey at Langley and they had no intent to ever send her back into the field. But at one point, she was a covered agent working in Europe. However, under the law protecting the identites of agents (Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982), you have to be a covered agent working aborad (and she wasn't) or have worked abroad in the last 5 years (she hadn't) and the "outting" had to be done knowing that the person was a covered agent (did those that release her name know she was?). So the IIPA didn't apply to her and thus no one revealed a covered agent since at the time she wasn't one.


Once a Marine...
Boy oh boy, have you released the dogs!!! I have exactly the same feelings about that person, and refuse to listen to or look at him, as he makes my stomach turn.

OnTheEdge, thank you for the reminders-directly from Scripture, for defining hate - even G-D hates evil - and those who shed innocent blood aren't more epitomized than the evil sitting in the oval office.

Conservative and Proud
I'm sure you're right, it's very Christian to hate if you say so. It appears that torture is Christian also.

I'm sure that you get to hate all the people Jesus hates, how convenient for you.


Once always and and conservative, re
Hating Obama.

My gosh, could this be the Obama Derangement Syndrome that conservatives liked to tag Bush-deniers with?

(Sorry for the dangling preposition, I'm trying not to be elitist today)

John
Go ahead, say it, you love torture and you know it. Anyone who actually believes that Abu Ghraib was an isolated incident by "bad apples" is happily ensconced in the delusional category of birthcertificat dementos that I noted above.

Grow up. Get your news from someplace other than TH and Fox news for a change. The most dangerous Americans are the most ignorant ones - not dumb, just willingly ignorant.

barbara
One of the outstanding characeteristics of conservative right-wingers is their penchant for seeing conspiracies. Another is their total reliance on crackpot websites together with their disdain for books, history, literature, and genuine scholarship (elitist).

If I had a nickel for all of the birth certificate-communist conspiracy dementos who post for the right wing, I would be sunning on the Southern shores of France or wandering around the British Museum instead of typing on this sorry site.

Butterfingers...
Perhaps you are a genuine person but you are looking very much like a troll when you come here and tell everybody to simmer down don't worry, it's going to be alright blah blah blah., etc.

If you go to TheSteadyDripblogspot.com you will find a commentary on just what trolls do. You sound like a liberal plant to me. They are people who come on sites like this, have a hidden agenda, and intend to dissemble. They have a definite agenda and it is not as plain as some would think. So Mr. or Ms Butterfingers why aren't you taking a stand? Not enough evidence? If that is true then you are trying too hard to be fair.

Obama has more than enough support from the dirty network he has stationed around him. Please don't tell me that the sky isn't falling. You've got a giant chunk of it in your hair!!

P
"Better than the alternative? I think so."

Iraq? Leaving Saddam in a box would have been a much better alternative. As for a check on Iran's power, Saddam was that, now you have natural allies of Iran running much of the country.

Imperfect? Iraq wasn't imperfect, Iraq was a total screw up by idiots. No plan on what to do after, went in with far too few troops to accomplish the mission, and had idiots like Bremer going forward with purely stupid acts like the de-Baathification nonsense.

And while the US has been mucking around in Iraq, the Taliban has got control of much of Afghanistan and now has Pakistan (a state may I remind you has nuclear weapons, not phantom WMDs and 20 year old shells buried in the desert with VX, but actual nuclear weapons and the systems to deliver them) in its sights.

Actually Neville Chamberlain bought time for the British Empire, going to war in 1938 would have not ended any better for France or the British Empire than it did in 1939-1940. When the western allies should have acted was in 1936. France and the Brits and the Americans could have easily pushed back the Germans in the Rhineland in 1936, but they choose not to, but a debate for another time I suppose.

Jax33
"Your post #10 was spot on.It amazes me that the left says waterboarding and other so called torture inflames the people in the middle east."

Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't. The key point though is that it violates US law as waterboarding according to the UN CAT which the US ratified in 1994 clearly defines it as torture (and other acts the US did also violated the CAT such as transporting those it controled to countries where it knew they would be subject to torture).

The actions at Abu Ghraib did though play right into the Muslim propaganda and not only that it came out just a few days ago how the "enhanced" techniques by CIA contractors actually caused some prisoners that were giving vaulable information to shut down and stop talking. So not only was it torture, sulled the image of the US, it wasn't all that effective either.

I HATE THE MAN TOO!
I am a Christian and it has been paining me to say it, but I do hate the man, too! Thank you, OnTheEdge, for reminding us that there actually are times when it is okay to hate. We should hate evil and I truly believe the man who now sits in the office of the Presidency is evil personified.

OnceAlwaysaMarine, you are fired up today! Good for you! We need people with your fire and your passion in matters like these. If we all sit back and meekly go along with Obama, we are doomed!

And Butterfinger: Oh, my! Yes, the sky IS falling. You just can't see it because you have your head so far down in the sand. Wake up! NO, he has not satisfied the public's demand to prove he is a legal natural born citizen! NO, he has not proven he has the right to rule our country! YES, I did say "rule" because that is what he is striving for. WAKE UP people, before it is too late!

akaqi
And what's your to 911 and Islamic fundamentalism? Deny the problem exists? Negotiate? U.N. sanctions?

Unfortunately, reality doesn't always conform to our wishes. If Afghanistan, however imperfectly done, has done nothing else it has denied a completely safe haven for terrorist training camps and sent a message to countries that harbor terrorists that they are on notice. If Iraq has done nothing else, it's drawn the attention, time and resources of terrorists worldwide there, rather than attacking the homeland, perhaps onee day providing a democratic check on the 'Republic' of Iran's power. Imperfect? Of course. Better than the alternative? I think so.

Try this scenario: Someone punches you in the face. You tell him: please, don't do that again. He does it anyways. You promise him things. He takes them, and still punches you in the face. You get your friends (who you and he know won't do anything) to promise/deny him things. He still does it. You have to deal with this individual- running and hiding isn't an option, because he always finds you. At what point do you defend yourself? I think the Neville Chamberlain response seems to be the solution offered by far too many today.

Taft
Valerie Plame never was a covert operative.

Marine
"We smashed the Taliban driving them from power in Afghanistan where they had turned that country into the world's largest Islamic terrorist training center."

And they now control much of Afghanistan and without US/NATO forces the Karzai regime would fold in weeks if not days. He is not unlike the Soviet puppets in the 1980s and we all know what happened to those regimes once the Soviets pulled out.

"We took out what was probably (at the time) the Middle east's most dangerous and saber-rattling dictator and his criminal sadistic sons, Saddam Hussein (in less than 2 months)."

Yes and a country that was little threat to the US and the US did so with no idea what to do after it had toppled the regime, never controlled the borders, let the army melt away and then launched the idiotic de-Baathification, not to mention having a person who knew nothing of Iraq as head of the occupation government--that being Paul Bremer.

"The CIA, FBI, NSA, etc., under the leadership and resolve of our "hated" president George W. Bush, kept us COMPLETELY free from any attacks or loss of life on American soil. Zero attacks. Zero deaths. Zero injuries."

True to some extent, but it wasn't simply the Americans that were the cause of this.


John, good post except for the BC part
He never satisfied anyone except the media. He has been told to provide it to at least one Federal judge who months later dropped the suit on a bogus reason, and one SCOTUS. Both of them simply let him defy them.

Once A Marine
Your post #10 was spot on.It amazes me that the left says waterboarding and other so called torture inflames the people in the middle east.When you have people that behead people,stone people to death,drag soldiers behind vehicles,I don't see how you can offend them.The people that should be irate about how the barbarians treat people are U.S. citizens.

James
Valerie Plame was working on Iran's nuclear program.

Gerson, not Gergen
See the difference a few letters make.....

More BS from Taft
Yup, the Middle East is just chock full of bleach blonde under cover agents.

Mr. Gergen, use Democrat, not Democratic
Hey Republicans, Conservatives & Libertarians: STOP using the word "Democratic" when referring to DemoCRATS! They love it when we describe them as Democratic.

They describe our government as a Democracy ...sounds like "Democrat", but we have a Republic, which sounds too much like "Republican". Subtle difference, but effective... just check out your childrens' textbooks...

Now for the truth
No one has criticized our bashed the CIA more than Republicans, and the wingnut press, like the Weekly Standard. They even blew the cover of one of its agents. Just imagine is Obama told the world the identify on one of our top agents working on nuclear Iran!



Perspective on Butterfinger.
Fellow posters, I would suggest that we not excoriate Butterfingers as he is merely suggesting that we not extend into hyperbole, and stick to relative facts.

While I agree that torture is unacceptable to Americans and our government cannot engage in it, I find nothing "torturous" about the interrogation techniques that were used against any of our captives at any of our detention facilities. Were prisoners at Abu Garhib (spelling?) treated correctly, NO, but this isolated incident was caused by inappropriate actions by individual soldiers. It was not systemic abuse.

As for the sky not falling...well Butterfingers, I have to take exception to that because I see our individual liberties under attack by a President, B.O., and a Congress that is determined to move us to a socialist or even communist system. True, the sky has not yet fallen, but Cap and Trade (based on a semi-religious faith rather than objective science), increased taxes (in the name of fairness - because B.O. is the arbiter of all things fair), Forced Choice (reasonable repayment for union support - but a disaster for this nation), and Government Healthcare (from the folks who brought you the Department of Motor Vehicles...and Government Motors) are all pending legislation supported by both B.O. and our Congress, indicate that there are major cracks in the firmament. (Sorry for the run-on sentence.)

Incidentially, I don't hate B.O. I cannot as I don't have the energy to sustain hate for a person, but I find his stance on virtually every topic both anti-American and juvenile in thought. I am merely disgusted by what he says and what he does.

You are right, though, about the birth certificate "controversy." He satisfied the U.S. born requirement to the FEC's satisfaction, and that is fine with me.

Hope you all have a great day.

OncealwaysaMarine
Regarding #1: You are not alone, sir. I can't find one redeeming quality about the man. I don't think it's wrong to hate someone who is as stuck on himself as this jerk. As a Christian, I want to pity him AND the people who put him in office. I'll have to just settle with forgiving the voters for their ignorance, but can't find it within myself to say the same about the one who compares himself to Christ... or Spock. Blasphemy on both counts.

Brickhouse
He`s looking more and more like the antichrist to me too.I do not listen when speaks,I do not like liers.

Dag
“Whatever Obama is deferring to when it comes to the military, it's probably because he sees the look in their eyes that if he screws around...”

Good point, but I also believe he’s attempting to manipulate the military & gain their respect while playing them against the CIA.

This will continue to happen

As long as our government is lawless and operates toward its own agenda and not for the support of the American People, things like this will continue to happen.

We have acted like stupid children by voting this malicious communist and his party into power, and this is how things become when you dismantle a country's government.

So get use to the idea that God, the Constitution, reason, logic, and common sense are thrown out the window by our nation's enemies, many of which, including Obama, are now found controlling our own government.

Don't like this feeling? Change back to a lawful, Constitutional government and don't ever let this kind of catastrophe happen on our soil ever again.

Until we regain our lawful government, we will continue to be screwed.

Eternal vigilance is a requirement of a free people.

What was Pelosi's Fatal Mistake?

All Liberals lie and obfuscate, it wasn't Pelosi's lying.

Pelosi was 'Stupid' to not recognize the Narcissism that controls Barack Obama - 'Hell hath NO fury, that compares to a Barack Obama who has NOT been recognized as the 'ONE'.

This was the 'Fatal Mistake' of Nancy Pelosi:
---------------------------------------------

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is not holding back when it comes to making her wishes known to the incoming administration.

The Politico newspaper reports Democratic insiders say Pelosi has “’set parameters’ for what she wants from Barack Obama and his White House staff — no surprises, and no backdoor efforts to go around her.”

Pelosi is in talks with incoming White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel. Sources say she wants to know when the administration has contact with rank-and-file Democrats — and why.

One insider says Pelosi is “not going to allow Obama to triangulate her.” Another added, “There is going to be tension…she wants to know what they are up to.”

When Barack Obama said "I Won" - that did NOT include anyone else - even the Speaker of the House.

Weakening of America

Liberals have always worked toward the weakening of America.

This is why they are often thought of as un-american or un-patriotic.

Oh good point
Yes, the dimmocrats had their binge about the WOT being an intel and special forces mission, but they're haoppy to destroy the cia.
They want it gone completely I've heard it for 30 years. They want most the military gone, too.
Whatever Obama is deferring to when it comes to the military, it's probably because he sees the look in their eyes that if he screws around...
On the other hand, he had how many years of democrats screaming the cia sucks and lies and bushcheney manipulated them - every cia report was a lie except valerie's and joe wilson's phantom report we never saw - that one of course was absolute truth.
The only honest cia agent and hired operatives in the entire world, Valeria and Joe.

Oh...and one more thing
Butterfinger, you say:

"These things massivly inflame public opinion in the middle east against us."

The only ones there is any evidence that "these things" have resulted in "massively inflamed public opinion" is not in the Middle East, but, as far as I can see, is in the so-called "progressive" left-wing useful idiots who call themselves Democrats right HERE in America!!

Stupid liberal homosexual "marriage" proponents, the ACLU, idiotic university professors, and Obama-slavering, slobbering sycophants who feed off his hatred for their own countrymen's efforts to keep them safe enough to clamor after their gay rights and abortion rights, are more "inflamed" than ANYBODY in the Middle East has shown themselves to be about the treatment of these @$$ho!es!!

You can speak for the people of the "middle east" in support of some MFing terrorist detainees caught trying to kill your brothers and sisters, but you can't speak up in support of the people whose sworn duty is to keep them from cutting your throat!!

Butterfingers..with all due respect 2

Now, rather than being praised for its work in saving us from further attack (regardless, or aside from the disagreement of the "tactics" used and the questions STILL remaining, if only in the minds of patriotic Americans, people on the left/Bush-haters, having already made their knee-jerk incriminations) about whether they constitute "torture"; this "president," having not said ONE identifiable thing GOOD about this country or anyone who has done their best to protect it and its citizens from further attack; goes to the Pentagon to speak to a group of CIA patriots, telling them: the post-9/11 period is "a dark and painful chapter in our history," when he could have been thanking them for keeping the American people safe.

This is the "perspective" and the fact of the matter.

Rather than seeking to boost their moral in the face of an ongoing war in which American troops and CIA officers will be called on to make further sacrifices; this JERK has the nerve to lay a F**king GUILT TRIP on them?!!

HE may be ashamed of this country and the CIAs efforts, but I, for one, am proud of them!!

And if I had a chance at one of these conspirators, I wouldn't give a DAMN what you call it...I would poke his GD eyeballs out with a bloody stick, if that's what I had to do to convince him to talk.

This conversation about "waterboarding" as torture, is ridiculous! And for this GERM to go to the CIA and characterize what Americans have done to protect America is TORTURE of the worst sort!

Whose side is this maniac imposter on?

It's obvious what his perspective is!!

"dark period in American history..." My @$$

The day this MFer was elected will go down as the darkest day in American history!!

Butterfingers..with all due respect 1
"Lets keep some perspective here
Guys, lets not carried away here.
I'm really not a liberal but everyone seems to be losing perspective here. Torture is fundamentally wrong, whoever does it. What happened at Abu Ghraib and other detention centers was fundamentally wrong.
These things massivly inflame public opinion in the middle east against us."

Let's put it into "perspective" as you say.

After having undergone a series of bloody attacks from "Middle Eastern" (Islamic fascists murderers) since as early as 1978 including a 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center and a 2000 attempted conspiracy to blow up the LA airport on New Year's Day; this nation suffered the devestating attack on New York city civilians and the US Pentagon (which houses the very CIA that is now under the "inflamed" band of traitorous liberals who now condemn it).

Defending "Hate"
Psalm 139:21,22..."Do I not hate those who hate you,O Lord,and abhor those who rise up against you? I have nothing but hatred for them,I count them my enemies." And Ecclesiastes reminds us,in 3:8,"there is a time to love and a time to hate".In Amos 5:15,"hate evil,love good,..."The Lord hates "haughty eyes,a lying tounge,hands that shed innocent blood,a heart that devises wicked schemes,feet that are quick to walk into evil,a false witness who pours out lies,and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers"(Proverbs 6:16-19)

The Good News.......
"Yes, children, hypocritical congressional investigations and foreign kangaroo courts are really our friends."

William Jefferson Clinton bombed a news station killing a female reporter. The rational was that it was disseminating propaganda. Investigations revealed 90% accuracy.

The Clinton administration did not cooperate with the investigation, and the finding was "insufficient evidence" to prosecute.

If we are looking to prosecute "war crimes", let us be fair and have one prosecutor for every living president.

Lets keep some perspective here
Guys, lets not carried away here.
I'm really not a liberal but everyone seems to be losing perspective here. Torture is fundamentally wrong, whoever does it. What happened at Abu Ghraib and other detention centers was fundamentally wrong.
These things massivly inflame public opinion in the middle east against us. Now you may not care what some student in Pakistan thinks, but this is what drives men, money and support to Islamic extremism.
I think Pelosi is a hopeless politician, really hopeless, but that really doesnt excuse the practice of torture.

Also, this whole thing about hating Obama personally is not good. We not agree with this man, but to ascribe some darker purpose to his actions will just cause you far more stress than he really deserves...

BTW this whole thing with the birth certificate... I think its a lost cause - didnt this get investigated by the FBI and get debunked?

Lighten up guys! The sky isnt falling in yet!!

The Good News.......
What did O'bummer know and when did he know it.

"The lack of a comprehensive, well-thought-out plan led to a predictable political backlash on Guantanamo," McCain said. "Instead of unifying Americans behind a plan that keeps us safe and honors our values, the administration's course of action has unified the opposition to moving forward and move forward we must."

The Bad News: When did O'bummer start planning the GITMO closure. The day he first suggested it? The day he became "Present"-ditz? The day he submitted a request for funding? When the Planes are loaded and ready for departure?

Plan? Plan? There's no Plan! I thought it was funny in "Beyond Thunder Dome". It's not funny in national policy.

oncealwaysamarine
As a Christian I know that I shouldn't say this, but I hate and despise this man. If his legal status is ever determined, we will be able to tell whether he is a traitor or an enemy agent.

Either way he is doing his utmost to destroy America. Idiots voted him into the job and he will make them pay for their mistake too.