Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Monday, April 27, 2009
Michael Gerson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Lines on a slippery slope
by Michael Gerson
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


WASHINGTON -- By releasing the Justice Department memos on coercive interrogations, the Obama administration has produced an unintended effect: Revealing the context and care of these decisions has made them more understandable, not less.

I had come to view harsh interrogations as a clear mistake. The war on terror is as much an ideological conflict as a military one, and the combination of Abu Ghraib and revelations about waterboarding had the practical effect of a battle lost. And I worried that these techniques might lead to a dehumanized view of the enemy -- always a risk in a time of war -- thus greasing a slippery slope toward abuse.

But the Justice Department memos disclose a different sort of deliberation -- a government struggling with similar worries even after immense provocation; a government convinced that new attacks were imminent, but still weighing the rights of captured murderers, drawing boundaries to prevent permanent injury during questioning, well aware of the laws regarding torture and determined not to violate them.

Historically, did America ever give such exhaustive consideration to the rights of children incinerated during the firebombing of Dresden? Or to the long-term mental and physical health of the elderly of Hiroshima? Even the most questionable techniques employed in the war on terror bear no comparison to methods common in past American wars.

The Justice Department memos raise a question: Can coercive interrogation ever be justified? Few Americans would object to the slapping of a terrorist during questioning, for example, if this yielded important intelligence. The coercion would be minimal; the goal of saving lives, overriding. Few Americans, on the other hand, would support pressuring a terrorist by torturing his child. Such a heinous act could not be justified in pursuit of an inherently uncertain outcome -- securing information that may or may not prevent greater loss of life.

So the use of coercion in interrogations lies on a continuum of ethics and risk. Lines must somehow be drawn on the slippery slope -- the difficult task that Justice Department lawyers were given. On which side of the line should waterboarding lie? It is the hardest case. The practice remains deeply troubling to me, and was discontinued by the CIA in 2006 after being used on three terrorists. But some members of Congress, it is now apparent, knew of the technique and funded it. The decision was not easy or obvious for them. It was just as difficult for intelligence and Justice Department officials in the months of uncertainty following 9/11.

I respect many of those who say ``never'' in regard to coercive interrogation -- just as I respect pacifists who believe that the use of violence and coercion by government is always wrong. This can be a position of admirable moral consistency, and some have willingly sacrificed for its sake. But holding this view is not an option for those in government, charged with the protection of citizens who share this position and those who do not. Adherence to this principle could involve unwilling sacrifice for many others.

Some have dismissed this argument as "moral relativism" or the assertion that the ends justify the means. But this betrays a misunderstanding of ethics itself. The most difficult moral decisions in government are required when two moral goods come into conflict. Most of us believe in the dignity of the human person, a principle that covers even those who commit grave evils. Most of us believe in the responsibility of government to protect the innocent from death and harm. Government officials pursue both moral goods in a complicated world. In retrospect, they may sometimes get the balance wrong. But national security decisions are not made in retrospect.

I suspect that most Americans, in considering these matters, would come to certain conclusions: There should be a broad presumption against harsh interrogations by our government. An atmosphere of permission can result in discrediting crimes such as Abu Ghraib. But perhaps in the most extreme cases -- when the threat of a terrorist attack is clear and serious -- American officials may need to employ harsh questioning, while protecting terrorists from permanent injury. In broad outlines, this approach is consistent with the Justice Department memos.

I remain ambivalent about these issues. There may be other, equally effective ways to get information from terrorists -- I don't know enough about such techniques to be certain. Elements of the interrogation program may have been mistaken. But these were not clear or obvious calls -- and they deserve more than facile, retrospective judgments.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Michael Gerson writes a twice-weekly column for The Post on issues that include politics, global health, development, religion and foreign policy. Michael Gerson is the author of the book "Heroic Conservatism" and a contributor to Newsweek magazine.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read Michael Gerson's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
Joel Has It Right
I would go even further. I am just glad that we had the type of Americans we had when we fought the Second World War. I can't imagine fighting a war like that now with a nation full of pacificists not wanting to hurt the poor Germans, Italians and Japanese while they are tearing up Europe and the Far East. I wonder if six million Jews, homosexuals and political opponents would have preferred water boarding to the ovens and death? Thanks to our current educational system, our young Americans have absolutely no idea of what happened in that era, and, when told don't believe what you are telling them. I hope they never find out first hand. We are not out of the woods yet and we will see how kindly they feel about the next attack on our nation. It is inconceivable that anyone could turn the other cheek when it is a matter of life or death. I think that the political individuals spearheading the coming witch hunt would be singing a different tune if their immediate families were put in harm's way.

Detainees
They are not U.S. citizens. They are not uniformed soldiers of a a nation state. To me they do not and should not have the rights of a U.S. citizen. To me they do not come under the Geneva Convention. I am not Catholic, but I do respect and like the doctrine of Pope Pius XII always choose the lesser of two evils. That is the way that I deal with divorce and abortion and also the way I think we should deal with interrogation of out of uniform combatants. So far as what we do to our prisoners effecting what radical Islamists do to prisoners they take, it is ridiculous to think it would have any effect on them. We have seen what they do. War suspends a lot of what is considered proper behavior. Some say that no one wins a war. But discuss it sometime with the losers and see if they agree.
How did it feel when we lost the Vietnam War-on the streets of the U.S.?
Donald W. Bales

Lines on a slipper slope
Let me see if I'm getting this straight. We can't water board terrorists who are trying to kill US citizens. We have to give them Constitutional rights, even though they don't wear uniforms and are not part of a country's military. So the Geneva convention rights don't apply to these people. Our military could just put them in a firing line and shoot them. And some activist judge says they deserve a trial with discovery. We bend over backwards for these scum bags, yet we allow our local police officer to taser US citizens, because they can't handle them any other way. Are you seeing where I'm going? We citizens have less rights than these terrorists. Can someone explain where I'm going wrong here? I'll get off my soap box now.

Who is this little livered columnist?
What a little-livered excuse for an American - comparing the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima (and Nagasaki) or the bombing of Dresden, greatly justified in the larger sense, to end a war that the enemy was fighting to enslave the world. He may have doubts about anything worse than slapping a captured combatant, and shys away from even killing a child of a known terrorist in order to save thousands or millions of Americans. Where are this idiot's values regarding his country, which is in a fight for its life against murdering Islamic terrorists. There are nearly no limits to what might and must be done. And, to quibble over waterboarding and other minor inconveniences for 3 prisoners is silliness of the highest order. Townhall should banish this coward forever.

Take a stand Mr. Gerson..,which side?
How about the soldier's side? I'm talking about our soldiers and special forces risking their lives every minute to keep us safe.

The Dems. made a decision back in 2003 that they would sacrifice truth to power. They wanted to win. They made Iraq and our soldiers their scapegoats for political victory.

With the help of the liberal MSM our soldiers became brutal killers. Loud music and sleep deprivation became torture of the worst order. Abu Ghirab, (a guard unit out of control), became EVERY soldier.It was done deliberately. Those politicians and media who orchestrated this have soldiers blood on their hands and they do not care.

Now they have their power and STILL they are not satisfied! They want a TRUTH commission.

More than ever the R.O.E. of this war are being run by liberal politicians and media.

Our soldiers now must wait to be fired upon before firing. And it is getting worse.Do not think for one nanosecond that this B...lls...t going on in Washington is not affecting our soldiers. It is making them hesitant in battle and breaking their fighting spirit!

Every picture that is being released of "TORTURE" by Americans should have a photo next to it of Nick Berg getting his head sliced off with a butter knife, or perhaps Daniel Pearl being brutally savaged before decapitation!

The terrorists photoarrays of their unspeakable acts.We wont see these, though they are shown proudly by our enemies on the internet.

Our nation will pay dearly for these politicians who are wreaking havoc with our military. Their evil is of a caliber far worse than waterboarding!

Welcome To The Terrorist World, Michael
There may be hope for you Mr. Gerson. I give you credit for at least recognizing the past administrations efforts in trying to do the right thing.
However, the more important area of reconciling the need to assure the safety and security of the United States and the best ways to achieve that needs a little bit more work on your part.
I pose to you this situation: Standing before you is a captured combatant. The best available information suggests that he masterminded a plot to destroy the Sears Tower in Chicago. Intel points to this happening within four weeks. If the plot is allowed to proceed, thousands could be killed.
It is your job to extract the essential information from the combatant. What would you do? The clock is ticking. The people of Chicago are depending on you to succeed.

Joel-De Oppresso Liber - Status of Detai

Well said, sir. People on both sides of this debate fail to recall that the unlawful combatants housed in Gitmo are not covered by the Geneva Convention. They are simply outlaws. Any consideration we give unlawful combatants is a boon they did nothing to earn. By their actions and allegiances they have forsaken the protections offered to civilized peoples in international law.

It is an article of faith among the pacifists and the politically correct that violence never solves anything - tell that to the Carthaginians.

The pacifists and the politically correct among us demand what they cannot personally assure. They survive at the sufferance of those stalwart few who stand at the watchtowers, guarding the thin veneer of civilization against evil and the wanton violence of the warlord. In payment for their inestimable service, the sentinels of civilization, the real peacekeepers, are demonized rather than blessed.

v/r,

-- Bud

Joel-De Oppresso Liber - treaties, P1.

You correctly note: "Treaties that are signed by the President, and consented to by the Senate; become part of the Constitution, and are as binding as the rest of the Constitution, and its Amendments. This is what makes treaties so dangerous."

There is an interesting footnote to this issue, something of a landmark Supreme Court case, Reid v. Covert (1957), which reads, in part, "... The obvious and decisive answer to this, of course, is that no agreement with a foreign nation can confer power on the Congress, or on any other branch of Government, which is free from the restraints of the Constitution.

{see p2}

Joel-De Oppresso Liber - treaties, P2.

{p2}

Article VI, the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution, declares:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof, and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; . . .

There is nothing in this language which intimates that treaties and laws enacted pursuant to them do not have to comply with the provisions of the Constitution. Nor is there anything in the debates which accompanied the drafting and ratification of the Constitution which even suggests such a result. These debates, as well as the history that surrounds the adoption of the treaty provision in Article VI, make it clear that the reason treaties were not limited to those made in "pursuance" of the Constitution was so that agreements made by the United States under the Articles of Confederation, including the important peace treaties which concluded the Revolutionary [p17] War, would remain in effect. [31] It would be manifestly contrary to the objectives of those who created the Constitution, as well as those who were responsible for the Bill of Rights -- let alone alien to our entire constitutional history and tradition -- to construe Article VI as permitting the United States to exercise power under an international agreement without observing constitutional prohibitions. [32] In effect, such construction would permit amendment of that document in a manner not sanctioned by Article V. The prohibitions of the Constitution were designed to apply to all branches of the National Government, and they cannot be nullified by the Executive or by the Executive and the Senate combined."

This may not be a wholly satisfactory firewall against the envisioned abuses of the Constitution, but it at least exists.

v/r,

-- Bud

Rocks & Hard Places
"Such a heinous act could not be justified in pursuit of an inherently uncertain outcome -- securing information that may or may not prevent greater loss of life."

NOT spraying water in the face of these people to save American lives AS WELL AS THE INDISCRIMINATE MUSLIM VICTIMS they routinely "sacrifice" to Allah IS THE TORTURE to humanity propagated on this world by ideologues who think moral relativism is a sport for their idle minds.

Clifton has it wrong
Clifton writes: "I wonder if six million Jews, homosexuals and political opponents would have preferred water boarding to the ovens and death?"

Prefer torture to death? Hmmm, I'm sure most would. I guess by your logic, had Hitler only waterboarded the Jews, then there would have been no problem, the Jews would have no reason to whine, and we would have just left the Third Riech alone.

To end the war
Liberals who complain that America should not have used the atomic bomb to win WWII are CRO’s (Copul*ting Rect*l Orifices).
Using the bomb ended the war in a few days, and saved the lives of a million American soldiers and almost the entire population of Japan.
The American plan for invading Japan consisted of landing our soldiers on one island and invading from there.
The Japanese plan consisted of putting as many defenders as possible on the same island, including old men, women, and little children armed with pointed sticks. Since American soldiers would have been reluctant to shoot little children, many would have been wounded or killed by them. Had they shot children, our soldiers would be called war criminals by liberals.
Japanese not killed by American soldiers would kill themselves for failing the Emperor. After how many years, would the war be over, with one million Americans and the entire population of Japan dead?
Using the bomb, the war ended in days, one million Americans and almost the entire Japanese population lived to continue their lives. Liberals hate this part.

Waterboarding Muslims might be considered torture to Muslims because it could be called a bath.

lib at heart
you write,"Prefer torture to death? Hmmm, I'm sure most would. I guess by your logic, had Hitler only waterboarded the Jews, then there would have been no problem, the Jews would have no reason to whine, and we would have just left the Third Riech alone."

1-it is generally conceded that people subjected to real torture would prefer death, particularly when you take into account that real torture usually results in death. anyone who thinks torture is better than death has no idea what real torture is. 2-america did not go to war with the nazis because of the jews, but because the axis declared war on the united states. we would have been at war if the jews were being fed ham sandwiches, never mind waterboarded.

Torture
The definitions of torture by the whiny, wimpy left including sleep depravation, listening loud rock music, water boarding, uncomfortable positions, or similar make me sick. According to them I have been tortured many times over the years. On the other hand I am still alive, haven't been physically OR mentally injured by any of this supposed torture, and considering my age am in fairly good condition.

The idea that we can obtain information from someone who intends and desires to kill or injure as many infidels as possible by being nice to them and asking pretty please is asinine. If it makes the sissies happy to believe that they can be nice to the Islamists and have them love us, fine. But don't endanger the lives of the rest of us while you're being happy and self satisfied.

I guess if people are squeamish about

waterboarding, nuking Mecca is out of the question.

Those of you convinced US used torture

How do you characterize what happened to the folks who had the choice of being incinerated alive or jumping from the 95th floor of one of the World Trade Center Buildings on 11 Sep 2001?

Or is that beneath notice?

Do you think future such events are just a cost of being the Great Satan? Or do we deserve it?

This ethical gulf that separates us will not be bridged. Cultural suicide masquerading as sanctimonious moral posturing is cultural suicide nevertheless.

It's Depressing to be SO STUPID!!
I'm glad I'm getting close to my "BEST IF USED BEFORE" date!
Here I am in a Country (which, incidentally, I know for sure is the BEST ON EARTH) where a large part of the populace is all warped out of shape because some "Detainees" were forced to wear Women's Underwear and that same GROUP want me to believe it's perfectly OK for Men to
MARRY EACH OTHER!! Where IN He!! DID I MISS THE BOAT??CHEERS
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.