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Friday, April 17, 2009
Michael Gerson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Red Faith, Blue Faith
by Michael Gerson
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WASHINGTON -- Is "Christian America" dying? And if so, should we mourn or cheer?

These questions, raised in a recent cover story written by Newsweek editor Jon Meacham, opened a vigorous and continuing debate (note: I am an occasional contributor at Newsweek). The article has been peppered with criticism from religious conservatives who say it demonstrates the anti-religious bias of the mainstream media. This reaction actually demonstrates something different: that it is easier to read a headline than it is to read an article.

The Newsweek cover declaring "The Decline and Fall of Christian America" was provocative in a typical, newsmagazineish sort of way. The serious essay that followed stated that the proportion of Americans who describe themselves as Christians (76 percent) has declined since 1990 -- which is true. That the percentage of Americans reporting no religious affiliation (15 percent) has increased -- which is undeniable. That the religious right has become less influential and less triumphalistic over the last several years -- and that this is positive for religion in general, which can become diluted and discredited by identifying too closely with any ideology, social order or nation.

The religious right, at least in its cruder expressions, is indeed a phenomenon without a future. A younger generation of evangelicals and their leaders, while generally remaining culturally conservative, tend to view the religious right's model of social engagement as too narrow in focus and too negative in tone. And the loose language of creating or re-creating a "Christian America" has always been a heresy, a historical error and a blunder. A heresy because no human kingdom, however admirable, can be properly identified with the Kingdom of God. A historical error because the federal government has been wisely nonsectarian from its beginning -- its laws informed by religious values while establishing no single, official religious tradition. A blunder because the conflation of faith and ideology can politicize, nationalize and thus diminish the appeal of faith itself.

So Meacham's arguments are accurate, even wise -- but they also are incomplete. John Green, a polling expert at the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, qualifies the Newsweek findings in several ways:

First, the rise of the religiously nonaffiliated is a trend -- but a very gradual one. According to Green, there is "no real difference between 2000 and 2009" on this measure.

Second, he notes that the unaffiliated are not identical to the nonreligious. In addition to a hard core of genuine secularists (who often seem positively theological in their proselytizing zeal), the unaffiliated include deeply religious people who distrust organized religion, along with people who are young or recently relocated and haven't gotten around to adopting a religious preference.

Third, Green observes that this group is "bigger, but not static." While some have consciously left their religious traditions, others raised without a religious tradition will eventually adopt one. Faith in America is fluid.

Fourth, Green argues, "the growth in the unaffiliated has not come at the expense of evangelicals, who continue to grow. It has come at the expense of mainline Protestants and white Catholics." The decline of the Protestant mainline is not a development I choose to cheer, because it has often represented the best of liberal idealism, particularly during the civil rights era. But one reason for the decline of the mainline is the very malady Meacham diagnoses on the right. The mainline has become pale, anemic and shrunken as it has become a reflection of trendy liberalism -- miniaturizing the Kingdom of God to fit a political ideology.

Fifth, Green warns that the polling could reflect not changing numbers of the unaffiliated, but changing pressures in society. "There used to be a strong stigma against being religiously unaffiliated. That has declined." When the pollster calls, it may simply be that "people are being more honest."

Green concludes that Newsweek has "told half of the story." "There are certain people moving to the left on cultural grounds. ... But we can't ignore the other side, the growth of more conservative believers -- evangelicals and conservative Catholics. ... We may not be seeing the decline of Christian America, but polarization on religious grounds."

This polarization is reason to mourn. But Green warns that we should be careful in allocating blame. "One reason could be the growth of a secular reaction against the Christian right. But it could be the other way around -- the reaction of the Christian right against the growth of secularism. Or they could feed off each other."

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About The Author
Michael Gerson writes a twice-weekly column for The Post on issues that include politics, global health, development, religion and foreign policy. Michael Gerson is the author of the book "Heroic Conservatism" and a contributor to Newsweek magazine.
 
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Where Does Religion Begin?
When my stepfather was a child (ca 1910) he was not asked to "pass the potatoes" at the dinner table---instead, he was told, "Look around and see if anyone needs anything". If I were to say where I think religion should begin, it would be the same---Look around and see if anyone needs anything. Who is in need? Who is lonely?Who is suffering emotional pain? Who requires our care? And what can do we do to help?

This seems to set me apart from conservative Evangelical Christians who (as I understand them) begin religion by looking for external rules to follow and to force others to follow. Meanwhile, the gay neighbor is snubbed, the young woman who had an abortion is shunned, the elder who can't get to the store is ignored, the mentally ill living in the park are despised, and they believe that, in Glenn Beck's words, "we should make the poor uncomfortable in their poverty [so they will strive to get out of poverty]". I don't see compassion or empathy or even kindness, let alone Christian charity, in the harsh attitudes of certain Evangelicals who post to this board. "What ye do unto the least of these, ye do it unto me." Comments about illegal immigrants (or even about all immigrants), about gays, about those arguing for legal and safe abortion, about the poor, sometimes about Democrats or liberals in general, and about President Obama, often sound more cruel than Christian.

To Gestell
You think it was a failure of our Founders that they didn't establish a single state religion? My ancestors could have explained matters to you. 1) My Huguenot (French Protestant) ancestors got chased out of France by a Catholic Church/government coalition that declared open season on Protestants. Google "St Bartholemew's Day Massacre" for details. 2) My Wesleyan Methodist ancestors went from Ireland to Canada for the same reason my English Quaker ancestors went to Pennsylvania: because state churches looked the other way when they were beaten up, thrown out of their jobs, and turned out of their homes in their native lands. 3) My German Baptist ancestors were not allowed to enjoy many of the benefits of citizenship because they rejected the Baptism of infants (the Lutheran Church was the state religion), preferring to baptize members who accepted Baptism knowingly (as Baptists did and do)).

Catholic, Lutheran, Church of England, Presbyterian---all were established as single religion state churches that did not respect freedom of worship. Our folks crossed 3000 miles of open sea in small ships then many walked another 1000 miles behind an oxcart, while getting shot at by Indians, and many did so seeking freedom of religion. The LAST thing they would have supported was a single state religion.

I take issue with this sentence
'This reaction actually demonstrates something different: that it is easier to read a headline than it is to read an article.'

....because every Christmas and Easter Time, Newsweek, etc, start looking for the real Jesus. They won't ever look for the real Allah, which I guess is a backhanded compliment. It suggests they're terrified of the truth, that Jesus is the Savior of the world, because He might ask them to change.

I also believe that the MSM and their fellow mud slingers in print, have lost our trust. Why should we NOW read an article after they've bashed our Savior, our faith, and helped destroy the morality of a nation by not being journalists but by pushing agendas and opinions and framing it as truth?

We are forgiving, but I stopped caring a long time ago about 'opinion journalism'.

I don't need the gospel according to Newsweek. I have a Real Bible.

What is to be done?
Mr. Gerson offers the usual cliches about the alleged limits of the religious right, arguing that "The religious right, at least in its cruder expressions, is indeed a phenomenon without a future." He does not enlighten us about what he thinks is crude and what is not.

Many Christians, including a number fo those who've posted comments about Gerson's column, take refuge in the familiar argument that, in Gerson's words, the US government did not establish a "single religious tradition."

For genuinely conservative Christians, this is a failure, not a success, of the American Founders. Gerson and most of today's conservatives know nothing about the tradition of Christian political theology and are unable to see the connection between Christianity and the necessity for its principles to be firmly established at the heart of our government. Just remember that so-called 'freedom of religion' is a principle of liberal political philosophy, the philosophy of the Enlightenment, and not a Christian principle. If conservatives truly want to destroy liberalism, they must not hesitate to attack its most revered beliefs. The truth of Christianity should supersede all other so-called truths, including those of liberal individualism.

My friend
A good friend of mine, way back in high school, became pregnant by her abusive and high-school-aged boyfriend. She didn't see any other options, so borrowed money from her sister and asked me to go with her to have an abortion. I wasn't a Christian at the time, so it seemed like a good idea to me. Why ruin Kathy's life because Steve didn't use a condom?

25 years later, Kathy was still calling me on the approximate day of her child's birth to weep. She's gone on and had another life and children, but that abortion remained with her. She's a Christian, she's forgiven of her general sins, but she had yet to repent of that one sin. She continued to justify her actions even as she continued to grieve the child she never knew. I told her that at some point in my Christian walk (about 10 years after I became a Christian), I acknowledged MY sin in participating in HER abortion and that has made a world of difference in my relationship with God. I suggested that she needed to repent it. I'm not the only one who suggested this. She continued justifying herself -- I had no choice, it was my right to choose that, it was all Steve's fault.

About five years ago, Kathy finally did as suggested -- acknowledged that she'd taken the life of her baby, admitted that it was sin, and asked God for forgiveness. A lot of great changes happened in her life after that. She'd been on antidepressants most of her adult life and now she isn't. She had been seperated from her husband, but they've been back together for 3-4 years now. Her living children say their mom is wonderful NOW (they had doubts back then). She's had a complete turn around in her life.

She stopped justifying her sin and repented of it instead and that made all the difference.

Biblical Punishment for "Abortion"
First, you are somewhat mixing apples and oranges in this discussion. The Biblical example indicates a man accidentally caused a miscarriage. That's a bit different from dialating a woman's cervix to 10 cm, taking a sharp instrument and scraping the baby out of her womb. It is the DELIBERATE taking of a life. So, I'm not sure you can really rely on the mildness of that punishment when you go to stand before God on Judgment Day having had or performed an abortion. I think you might rather be wrapped in a cloak of salvation and repentence, admitting your responsibility in the death of that child. God can forgive any sin we can commit, but He won't do so if you won't acknowledge that you've sinned.

Abortion is murder. If you've had one, performed one or condoned them, based on Jesus' discussion of sin, you are guilty of murder. Christians can be forgiven of it because we stand in the grace of Jesus' sacrifice, but we still must acknowledge it, admit it and repent from it. For non-Christians, well, you have bigger problems than the abortion. Until you come to Jesus for salvation, abortion is a secondary issue, or more accurately, a symptom of why you need salvation.

Robert from AZ
Actually, if you bothered to research it you'd find that many Christians are "stepping up to the plate" to adopt children who might otherwise have been aborted. My husband and I attended a fund-raiser for the local crisis pregnancy center this winter and about a dozen adoptive families were in attendance. When you consider that the population of the Greater Fairbanks area is less than 100,000, that was a tellingly big number. The speaker was from Kansas where the numbers were a good deal greater.

It's a fallacy born of pre-contraceptive days that if we didn't have abortion the children saved would be waiting in orphanages for the rest of their lives. That was reality once; it hasn't been for a very long time. Children who are not the offspring of crack addicts are snapped up pretty fast in this country. Two of the families at that fundraiser had been on adoption waiting lists for nearly a decade before "adopting" the mothers of their children. Others were people who already had biological children, but just did the right thing.

We need to stop making excuses for abortion. It's not necessary and there never should have been a "right" to choose to kill your unborn children. Murder is still murder; justifying it doesn't make it any less so.

Aniko
I perhaps worded my statement strongly, but the fact remains that the taking of any human life is murder. To call it less than that is disingenuous. It's saying that life that has not been born yet is less valuable than life that has been born. The problem with that argument is that it can quickly be turned around to justify the taking of other life. The life of an old man is less important than the life of a 30-year-old. The life of a Jew is less important than the life of a Christian and both are less important than the life of a Nazi party member. You can accuse me of (falsely) fascism, but I will counter that you condone genocide.

I have to question your contention that you love your children more than life given your following statement that you'd rather kill them in the womb than give them up for adoption. Do you not see the paradox in that statement?

Again, there are lots of choices in this world. Modern contraception has eliminate the need for 99% of the abortions performed in this country. If people would use it or actually act like rational human beings and abstain from sex when they don't have contraception, we wouldn't "need" abortion. But of course, as long as abortion is "legal" (having circumvented the way laws are supposed to be made in this country) than people with your mentality will continue to choose convenience over responsibility.

Sex, like everything else in life, comes with consequences. If you're not willing to take responsibility to prevent pregnancy, don't have sex!

Aniko
As you know, while I disagree with your belief that abortion is better than an 'unwanted' child, I respect it. It would be harder for you to maintain that belief if there were more Christians, Jews, and secular types who would back up their criticism of your choices with the willingness to take over the responsibility that they seem to think is so easy for others. I always hope and pray that more people will be willing to take up those responsibilities to further reduce abortions.
So that's a challenge for Christians and Jews (and others) out there-- it's hypocritical to criticize the decisions that other people make if you're not yourself willing to take up the responsibility yourself to the degree you are able, either by doing the job yourself or supporting those who do.

Robert - thank you
Robert, I so appreciate a kind, understanding, even “encouraging” response, and perhaps that is what I am looking for from so called Bible passage reciting Christians. In response, I only get reviled, sermoned about my “sin” and demands to “confess” my sins. To whom? A mere mortal who might be more of a sinner than I? We all commit known and unknown sins, and if we truly love our Savior and believe His promise of redemption, we courageously ask Him to forgive us for both sins. Personally, I consider it a more “loving” act that ends an unwanted pregnancy, at a time when human consciousness is un-provable and highly unlikely, and then give a chance to a poor female to live a bearable life, then to “punish” a mother and child with a constant reminder of a “mistake”. Maybe I am “chasing windmills” to expect understanding from narrow-minded, literal interpretations of the Holy Scriptures (even though it is mostly a compilation of allegorical teaching stories), but at least I don’t claim to be a know it all “preacher-judge”.
Thank you again for your open-mindedness, and no, I don’t think you had a “wasted youth”. I apologize if I sounded arrogant.

Aniko
"As recently as the 1960s the adage of “boys will be boys” placed any consequence of a sexual encounter, solely on the shoulders of the female. That could not have been the “Christian God” or the will of God, the loving, just and fair Father Jesus referred to, and I love." Not in my church or my society, Aniko. And that is the only one I am responsible for.
It is real Christians (and Orthodox Jews) who step up to the plate to take responsibility, not only for themselves but for others. In our case, we were foster parents for teenagers who had been sexually abused by their father or stepfather. I also adopted a child conceived as the result of rape and raised her from infancy. That's part of the responsibility we have to take if we are going to say that abortion is wrong-- to be willing to take on not your own burden, but the burden of others.

Robert
I will not argue your erudite information, and I strongly condemn President Obama’s “No” vote for infant care for a live birth, consequence of a “botched abortions”. A live fetus, even if it is not viable with our most advanced technology, deserves to be cared for until it expires. I know we are living through difficult times of changing mores, but an embryo or a fetus that needs a womb to become a human baby, is not a “baby”, therefore it is not “murder” to abort it. It is bordering infanticide to induce labor in the latter period of gestation for the sake of an irresponsible female who let it go for so long, without ending the pregnancy, while it would have been painless, and “sinless”. That is why I would amend the Roe v Wade decision by putting a limit on abortions only through D& C, in the embryonic stage of gestation, and than, no one would suffer. But, to force pain and suffering on a young girl (especially if she is destitute), for a “mistake”, she thought of as love, for the rest of her life (whether she has to give the child up for adoption or keeps it herself and then two people suffer through life from poverty, shunning and unfulfilled and un-fulfill-able dreams and desires), is not , and cannot be the will of God, unless we all accept God to be a “cruel and vengeful” God. I only inferred that the sanctity of “human life”, throughout the ages became the sole responsibility of the females in society, thanks to the “church’s” paternalistic enforcement of the “Law” (I don’t think it ever was a Biblical law). As recently as the 1960s the adage of “boys will be boys” placed any consequence of a sexual encounter, solely on the shoulders of the female. That could not have been the “Christian God” or the will of God, the loving, just and fair Father Jesus referred to, and I love. Secular law, is saner than the pretense of so called “biblical law”, as some insist it to be.

Valiant for truth
Where is Christ's and God's Kingdom? In whose "grips" is the world until His return? If a "sparrow cannot fall without His knowledge (approval)", do you think the "rise and fall" of earthly powers could happen without His will? If He deems a "soul" to be born, do you think a woman's "free will" shall not be stopped? I know it will! He stopped my mother's “will” to get rid of me, through the evil coercion of Ceausescu’s oppressive tyrannical law, criminalizing any contraceptive measures, including any abortion, at any time. Was Ceausescu implementing our Father's will? In as much as Judas did, when he betrayed Jesus, yes. Were there, and are there a lot of innocent children, victims of aids in Romania through the evil of a man who built himself palaces with golden bathroom faucets, yet he criminalized abortion and contraceptives through pains of incarceration of all who even attempted to perform an abortion, out of sheer compassion? Were those doctors evil, or was Ceausescu? Did God allow all that pain and suffering to visit that nation, without punishing that leader? He was shot like a rabid dog, as he deserved it! God's will supersedes yours, or the Popes, or any preacher's. "May His will be done", not yours!
You quote well the passages of the Bible, but you neglect to speak the TRUTH, either because you don't know it, or because you think you have more right over my life than I do! Jesus would consider you more of a sinner than me! Allow me, to pay for my sins, if and when the Lord deems me to pay for it! IT IS NOT UP TO YOU to put "Caesar" in the White House or the Halls of Congress, to obey YOU and your followers! “Sons of vipers, your Father is not my Father”! Remember them? By trying to gain “power” they lost their tyrannical “stoning” power, and their whole nation along with it!

Biblical Translations
"Dear man (if that is what you are), do you know how many translations of the Bible are there? Do you know why?" Not only do I know how many there are, I can make them, since I can read and write Bible age Greek and Hebrew. Sigh . . . I know, symptoms of a wasted youth . . . Your concept of the ignorance of the facts of life at the time of Jesus are way overstated if you read Galen or any of the other physicians current in the ancient world. They were many things, but they were not ignorant of basic embroyological development. Luke himself, author of the Gospel which speaks of children the most, was a Greek physician and undoubtedly familiar with them. The language of the Didache is very clear on abortion. There is no ambiguity in the word.
Having said this, you are correct that the issue of abortion is divisive and complicated, not only within the church and synagogue, but in the secular world. From your personal testimony, your struggle with abortion was hard and your decisions made for hard and rational reasons. But, as you yourself would admit, that is not the case with all, or even most, of the fifty million abortions performed in this country, including late term abortions which you identify as morally wrong. The pro-abortion forces in this country won't allow any majority attempt to even limit late term abortions, provide for parental consent, or require ultrasound or a discussion of alternatives. Our abortion laws are the most radical in the civilized world. I don't think you approve of that.
In a secular sense, I believe that acceptance of abortion on any terms at any phase of fetal development degrades our respect for life and the individual far more than any restrictions on abortion would. From a religious sense, I find the practice reprehensible except in cases to save the mother's life.

Who is declining?


The Decline and Fall of Christianity in America means the decline and fall of America. As Western culture advanced with the influence of Reformed Christianity, so it will decline without it. This is as sure as the law of gravity. Christ is the ruler of the nations; He rules according to His Law through the sanctifying influence of His church. When men and nations forsake His Law, they fall under His wrath and are dashed to pieces as a rod of iron striking a potter’s vessel [Psalm 2].

The Declaration of Independence is clear that ‘the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God’ is the foundation of our unalienable rights, and that the role of government is to secure those rights through civil law consistent with the Natural Law.

The assault on the unalienable rights of life, liberty and property is consistent with the deterioration of Christian doctrine preached from the pulpits and believed by the people.

We are seeing the decline of America as she exchanges her heritage for the lie of secularism, but what is seen as the decline of the church is the vinedresser removing the unfruitful branches and casting them into the fire, while He prunes the fruitful branches so that they can bear more fruit [John 15].

“Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom” [Luke 12:32]. Strength in the Kingdom of God is not measured in numbers. Nations rise and fall, but Christ’s dominion is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom shall not be destroyed.

Who is declining?

The Decline and Fall of Christianity in America means the decline and fall of America. As Western culture advanced with the influence of Reformed Christianity, so it will decline without it. This is as sure as the law of gravity. Christ is the ruler of the nations; He rules according to His Law through the sanctifying influence of His church. When men and nations forsake His Law, they fall under His wrath and are dashed to pieces as a rod of iron striking a potter’s vessel [Psalm 2].

The Declaration of Independence is clear that ‘the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God’ is the foundation of our unalienable rights, and that the role of government is to secure those rights through civil law consistent with the Natural Law.

The assault on the unalienable rights of life, liberty and property is consistent with the deterioration of Christian doctrine preached from the pulpits and believed by the people.

We are seeing the decline of America as she exchanges her heritage for the lie of secularism, but what is seen as the decline of the church is the vinedresser removing the unfruitful branches and casting them into the fire, while He prunes the fruitful branches so that they can bear more fruit [John 15].

“Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom” [Luke 12:32]. Strength in the Kingdom of God is not measured in numbers. Nations rise and fall, but Christ’s dominion is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom shall not be destroyed.

Robert post 8.o5 PM
You wrote: “This was codified in the earliest non-scriptural Christian book, the Didache, which forbade abortion and homosexual behavior around AD 90.”

Dear man (if that is what you are), do you know how many translations of the Bible are there? Do you know why? I do believe it is because, certain definitions are clearly not the same today as they were then. Even in the codification in AD 90, embryo, fetus and child were not clearly defined, nor even understood! Ovum and sperm were perhaps known, but exactly when the human gestation period started, was clearly unknown, or else the Vatican would not have claimed that the “soul” enters an infant’s body when it takes its first breath, therefore a human life starts at that moment. Consequently, in Jesus’ time a “blessing of a child” started at the time of “quickening”, and by then I, not even with today’s medical knowledge would allow abortion. Before then, in the embryonic stage, when a pregnancy feels more like a nasty virus, a woman, believe me, cannot enjoy the “blessing” unless she has the full support of either a family, a good husband, or, like me (when I planned for it), is stoically endures, for the joy of having that child. Was I aware that I had “an accidental pregnancy”? Yes. Did I have the Biblical “freedom of will” to decide over my, and my children’s destiny? Yes : the “unalienable right from the Creator” was coined by wiser men than you or I. Jesus, I am sure did not mean let all your “fetuses and embryos” come to me, because I love children.
All I am trying to say that the issue of abortion is a divisive and contentious issue, that has its place in the “church” but not in the political arena. My “sin” is between me and my Creator, and it should not be anyone’s “scarlet letter to be brandish onto my flesh”! This is the main reason I WILL NOT JOIN any religious organization in this country, because I see its members and preachers as far from Jesus as Mecca is from Jerusalem!

This whole question of religion is a
Red Herring. For many many years I have not given my allegience to any particular religion. Does that mean I am not a Christian? I guess so. Does that make me feel ostrisized from the church-goers? Hell no! I read the bible daily and get much comfort and wisdom from my readings. You liberals have no idea of the number of us who are not affiliated with any specific church, but we believe that evil exists in the form of liberals who believe that no evil exists.

mourn or cheer?
cheer - at your peril

I Agree With Barry Lynn
Rev. Lynn is right: our country is based on a level-headed separation of Church and state.

The "public square" is open, not closed, to free speech, including religious speech.

A practicing Catholic, I'm grateful for our "secular" state--would not have it any other way!

Aurorawatch
You wrote:
"You could choose, if you get pregnant, to carry the child to term and give it for adoption. Nowadays, there are people who have waited years on waiting lists to adopt."
I don’t know about you, but I love my children way beyond my life. If I would have "carry(ied) the child(ren) to term” I could not have given them away, as a "thing" I couldn’t afford. Wouldn’t that have altered me and my children’s life in a dangerous way? I don’t know, but I am pretty sure it would’ve. Pat Buchanan claims that about 50 million abortions were performed since Roe v Wade. Would we be better off as a nation with that kind of population of unwanted children? I don’t think so. Bush was a “compassionate” Republican, and he gave “gifts” to underdeveloped nations for “family planning” with a stupid string attached. Those countries have a high infant mortality because the “land” (more likely tyranical political chaos) cannot sustain a larger population. If those countries population would be allowed to explode, their poverty and therefore envy for America’s wealth would cause even more terrorism. We would have a higher influx of Muslims, and they would reproduce to unsustainability here too, and Sharia would be the “law of the land” sooner rather than later. I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t vote for the Pope to be our President. We had a “preacher in chief” with Jimmy Carter. I wouldn’t want a repeat of that administration! Since 1976 we had a good, and wise Republican President in Reagan, yet not even he could reverse Roe v Wade. Do you have any inkling why not?
I know, we Christians are looking for a “Solomon” in the pipes for a Republican President, or perhaps more likely a Jesus Christ, but apparently the “time” has not yet come for that. In the meantime, we Christians, can promote our values, but our personal religious convictions should not be forced on anyone through political manipulation.


Jeffrey says
"the Bible has amazingly moderate punishment if a man accidently kills the unborn child of the wife of another man:" The key word is 'accidently'. The Old Testament is silent on what the penalty would be because not wanting a child was virtually unthinkable in ancient times. The New Testament is silent on abortion, but does say that the least powerful deserve our protection, that those who hurt the least of these (referring to children) is the worst criminal, and so on. All the teachings of Christ point to a special protection for children and by extension, since the Bible clearly considers unborn children to be children, to the unborn. This was codified in the earliest non-scriptural Christian book, the Didache, which forbade abortion and homosexual behavior around AD 90. Also, in the ancient world abortion was extremely dangerous. The more common way of getting rid of unborn children was to abandon them after birth, which was perfectly legal in the pagan world, but never in the Christian world. Every Christian church or Jewish synagogue condemned abortion until late in the twentieth century, with no exceptions.

Since you disapprove of the Bible, why do you quote it anyway? And why do you think that Christians will be impressed by quoting the Old Testament, which law has been fulfilled and is no longer binding on Christians according to the New Testament?

Aurorawatch
I resent your implications regarding responsibility. Your ignorant prejudice borders on fascist coercion when you define "murder". Since you don't know anything about me, you have no right to accuse me of anything. I cannot take contraceptives, since I had a large breast tumor at the age of 20, and my body rejects IUDs. I was in a marriage with a brute for 20 years and I could barely keep myself and our 2 live children safe from him! He was not cooperating with the rhythm method, so before I could decide to "sterilize" myself with tubal ligation, my best CHOICE was to terminate 2 pregnancies. I was an immigrant and had no one to either advice me or keep me and my children safe! Thank God you are not God, and the likes of you don’t have the medieval Catholics power, because by now, I would have been burnt at the stake!
You say:
"Religion and science agree on this. You can try to twist it around to something else, but facts speak for themselves and these facts have been settled scientifically."
Oh, really? Scientists are not the ones who want abortion to be stopped form the moment of conception through voter coercion, but religious fanatics, who misrepresent Christianity, are! Christianity, thanks to the likes of you, becomes nearly indistinct from Islam. That is what Mr. Gerson is writing about, and I totally agree with him.
Do you want Christianity to lose ALL influence in the shaping of our nation’s future, keep this attitude up! Confused Catholics voted 54% to 45% for Obama! Young voters overwhelmingly voted for him, also. Do you ever wonder that your views, and others like you, may have had something to do with that?
Because I am a Ceausescu regime exiled whom this wonderful nation adopted, I saw first hand what the criminalization of abortion did in Romania! God Bless America and its thoughtful leaders. I don’t like the present triumvirate of Obama, Reid and Pelosi, but the abortion issue is the least of their crime.

Let's make one thing clear....
...there are no "blue" or "red" shades of true Christianity. You accept our Lord as your savior or not.

The problem with these polls is that a lot of people associate themselves with the label as the result of some action they took, some thought they have or embrace rather than belief in Christ ("No one comes to the Father but by me..."). How many times do you hear the "Let him without sin cast the first stone" without the "Go and sin no more!" that followed that statement to the adulteress's acusers?

My point is that the poll over counts--there are many who talk that aren't walking it.

Life?
I definitely think we should give government the power to control a womans body. That way when we need to control the population the precedent will already be set and we can then require abortion, like oh say china.

christianlib
I am a Christian, but not liberal. The best way I would define myself would be a principled conservative, a patriot and a moderate Christian. I am sure, according to Melissa, I am NOT a Christian, but I know I am. I disagree with 5 of your positions, because they are "liberal extremes". 1.I am pro-abortion, albeit limited by term. 2. I am absolutely for death penalty in pre-meditated murder. 3. Pre-emptive war has a greater chance to PREVENT further attacks from unpredictable terrorists than pure diplomacy. When terrorist are from multiple nationalities, bound by fanaticism only, like Bush, I would strike the most vulnerable terror supporting dictatorship, and clean house from that base. That is not immoral, but smart. 4 .If you can define “torture”, I might agree with you. Water boarding, sleep deprivation, hot-cold treatment, yelling, or dog barking, do not meet my definition of torture, but if “coercive interrogation” keeps us safe, I am all for it. WE HAVE NOT BEEN ATTACKED FOR 8 YEARS! It is a good example of “pre-emptive” tactics. I vote for the candidate that is bound by his /hers oath of office to “keep this nation safe”, no matter through what method. I am frugal, and I expect my political leaders to be the same with the people’s money. Our nation may not have a Judeo-Christian Constitution, but it was founded on those principles, and the majority still is Christian. Liberals, atheists and every religion has the freedom to worship any which way they want, or not. Christians and Jews, since they are in majority, should have every right to place commemorative displays in public squares. Schools should allow silent prayer and children should be taught non-coercively religious precepts as philosophical concepts. Religious books should be analyzed within that context, because ALL religions have ethical and moral lessons that could not hurt, but help form a young mind in life-decisions

Aurora
No one disputes that a fertilized human egg implanted in a uterus is alive. The issue has always been, is it a person, with rights. It's "personhood" that the debate is about.

Aniko is right, the Bible has amazingly moderate punishment if a man accidently kills the unborn child of the wife of another man: he has to do what the other man says is acceptable as punishment, and pay a fine to the civil authorities. Theoretically, if the man whose child was killed doesn't especially want the child anyway (too many kids already), he might not demand punishment at all. And of course, this being the Bible, the woman has no say either way.

Aniko
Scientifically, your proposition is unsupportable. The union of the DNA of a human man and a human female creates the DNA of another human being. By the time a woman is aware that she is pregnant and wants an abortion, there is a human life growing inside of her. Therefore, abortion is the taking of a human life. It is as much murder as killing someone who is 30, only worse, because the fetus can't fight back.

Religion and science agree on this. You can try to twist it around to something else, but facts speak for themselves and these facts have been settled scientifically.

As for the issue of choice -- have you ever considered that you had lots of choices before getting pregnant. You could choose not to have sex. You could choose to use effective contraception every time you have sex. You could choose, if you get pregnant, to carry the child to term and give it for adoption. Nowdays, there are people who have waited years on waiting lists to adopt.

You don't have to kill the children you carelessly produce. Admit it! You simply want to because convenience is more important to you than responsibility and that justifies murder in your mind.

Nobody's voting for a theocracy . . .
I am an unashamed Christian/social conservative and I do not want a theocracy. Furthermore, I don't know any other Christian conservative who does. This is a ridiculous lie perpetuated by people who are afraid of Christians. I can understand why people are afraid. Tyranny commandeers all forms.

Those who are afraid of tyranny in the form of a theocracy/moral-ocracy should be just as concerned as I am about being told I'm immoral unless I use 'green' products, applaud sexual deviance, absolve fascists who kill Americans of any guilt, and allow people who break the law to live in our free society. Funny how those who used the mantra, "You can't legislate morality," are the very ones who are now doing it in the name of decency, civility, and intelligence. Just sounds like more tyranny to me.

Christians do not hide the cross
Why did Obama want the Cross Hidden?
Perhaps BOs reason for hiding cross was
Rahm Emanuel told him he was Jewish OR
Obama is a mole Muslim OR
Obama is a vampire OR
Obama was so angry that the Catholics opposed him because of his abortion position that he exerted his "power" and demanded it - much like the Michael Jackson’s hotel demands of bowls of gummy candies, a large mirror, and a child’s xylophone-

Since the author asked the question:
We should cheer. 'Nuff said.

Joel-De and JMartin
Joel-De, I can promise the pro-choice movement would fight against mandatory abortion as strongly as we fight attempts to ban the procedure. We are called pro-CHOICE, after all. We believe the government has no right to dictate to women whether or when they should have children, use contraceptives, etc.

And JMartin, the Puritans gave us theocracy (why Roger Williams fled Massachusetts) and the witch trials, while the Spanish missions basically enslaved the Indians, so I don't think either of those is a good example to follow.

Here's to a nation where people can make their own religious choices and the government stays out of it!

Melissa and "polarization"
“Murder (also known as abortion and euthanasia) and homosexuality are blatantly condemned in the Bible, last time I checked.”
Only homosexuality is clearly condemned, dear Melissa. Euthanasia is murder, unless a person has asked in a “right state of mind”, in writing, to be removed from artificial means of life-support. What was done to Terri Schiavo, I consider it murder, perpetrated by the husband, and a sin committed against, not God, but against her loving and caring family. Abortion cannot be defined as murder, since the consciousness and the will of the aborted, cannot be defined or clarified. Theologically, there is no clear mention that an abortion is murder. On the contrary, Exodus 21:22-25 : “And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if damage comes to her, let life be given in payment for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise”, clearly states that LEGALLY, a “miscarried “ fetus was not to be repaid with a death sentence as in MURDER, therefore, the Bible defines fetal existence NOT to be a full human with human rights. If a Christian believes, as I do, that the Bible is the Word inspired by God, than this statement clarifies the LEGAL definition of murder. Murder of A FULL TERM FETUS, or what I would call “VIABLE FETUS (with modern technology from around 20 weeks) should be considered infanticide, but not an abortion before that gestation time. Just because Roe v Wade does not clarifies this, it does not mean that limited abortion, in the earliest time of gestation, can be defined as murder. If this issue would not be politicized by the Church, American conservatism could exponentially influence governance, and all Christians could wield greater political power in other areas of faith.

Christian Lib
Thank you for your well thought out post. We'll duel another day.

Robert
why do you start an interesting discussion when i have to leave.

i own a small business and have to leave my office soon.

thanks for your response.

lets see, some Christians can support abortion the same way some Christians can support the death penalty or torture.

i don't think any Christian really supports abortion but some believe that it is an individual choice.

i find it troubling that some Christians want to use the government to ban abortion but when other Christian values like the death penalty are mentioned they react negatively.

not a very consistent or logical position in my opinion.

i am not speaking for them just trying to give a rational reason.

as far as the denomination pushing the most leftist choices i will only say that there is also politics in that.

it is a fallacy though that you can't be pro-life, pro-freedom and pro-american and also be liberal.

i and millions of Christian liberals are all 3 of those things.

thanks again for your civil and articulate response.

i hope i was able to give you some answers but as someone who struggles with my own demons every day, and still trying to be more Christlike, i know i don't have all the answers and probably wont till i meet God face to face.


I Respect Christian Lib
Like him, I am also against both abortion and capital punishment, but disagree with the direction of most of his other conclusions. For a small example, allowing people to keep the wealth they earn creates jobs and helps poor people, not hurt them.
However, I have major issues with 'Liberal' Christianity. The leadership of my denomination invariably picks and pushes the most leftist choices in international, national, and local politics and marginalizes those of us who are pro-life, pro-freedom, and generally pro-America. I am puzzled and would like Christian Lib to explain how a Christian can be pro abortion, for example.

homeschool mom
i always appreciate your post because although we don't always agree, you are civil and thoughtful.

you ask this

"We were wondering if those with more dominion theology interpretations were the ones responsible for fueling the development of the "Christian Right" political arm of politics rather than a study your Bible, pray for guidance, and vote your conscience as an individual approach to politics for believers.

Am I correct in assuming dominion theology is a common view among mainline protestants? If it is, could that be a factor in the decline of the "Christian Right?"

i come from a family of ministers and was raised baptist.

most mainline protestant churches take very seriously the example of Jesus Christ when he walked the earth.

was he involved in government?
did he spend more time with the rich or the poor?

the expression "what would Jesus do" emanated from that biblical belief in the new testatment.

i am liberal because I am a Christian.

i look to the life and words of Christ for my blueprint to life.

don't know if that answers your question but i tried.

melissa
be careful about judging other Christians.

again, you are doing what the author is warning against.
mixing religion and politics can be a trap.

i am pro-life but that also means i am against the death penalty.

i also think pre-emptive war is immoral.

if i picked my political party based on my religious beliefs i would find all politics to be immoral.

i believe favoring the rich over the poor is immoral.

i believe that most politicians lie from both sides.

i believe torturing another human being is immoral.

to identify your Christianty with a specific party can lead to a moral trap.

Polarization
Yes, the great divide has come...liberal "Christians" versus conservative Christians. Those who won't stand up for what the Bible says versus those who live out their faith in every aspect of their lives, including politics. Just a thought: how can you profess to be part of God's family and support what He is completely against when you proclaim yourself a liberal? Murder (also known as abortion and euthanasia) and homosexuality are blatantly condemned in the Bible, last time I checked.

great column
this is one of the most balanced and thoughtful columns i have read on townhall.

as a Christian liberal, notice i am liberal because of my Christian beliefs and morals, i will respond that the author is right that for some churches liberal became more important than CHristian.

that is being addressed in most mainline protestant churches as we speak.

i also must agree with his unspoken or unwritten thesis that we all Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ.


Jefferson no role model
I agree with JMartin . . .Secularists like to point out Thomas Jefferson's views as evidence that our founding fathers were not religious. Jefferson certainly was a brilliant statesman and a giant in American history, but this was a man who also 1) had an affair with his wife's underage half-sister, the slave Sally Hemmings, and even fathered children by her, all the while publicly opposing miscegnation; 2)Made numerous comments that today would have labeled him a white supremacist of the most odious kind, including the remark that black women, lacking any of their own species, would mate with orangutans; 3) never fully freed Hemmings or any of his other slaves. (George Washington, to his credit, did free his slaves and even provided monies for their support; much to the dismay and anger of his wife, Martha Washington.)

I usually don't go around quoting rappers, but a line from Chuck D's "Fight The Power" is appropriate here . . . "He (Jefferson) didn't mean S*IT to me . . ."


For the record
Plenty of secularists are religous, even devoutly so. They may not be 'theologically correct' according to whatever brand of religion you personally subscribe to, but that doesn't mean they are insincere in believing that entangling government and religion is detrimental to both. If I were of a mind to 'stamp out religion', I would encourage MORE mixing of government and religion, judging from Europe, it's an efficient way to render religion irrelevant. The USA is still the most religious First World power, BECAUSE the state's constraints against religous involvement have created a vibrant marketplace of religous ideas. The worst thing that could happen to the dominionists would be getting their way.

They're still politicians
Citing the Founders as proof that the US is a “Christian” nation is fraught with problems. First, they crafted the First Amendment, clearly neutralizing the government as an agent of religion. That’s pretty amazing considering the supposed religiosity of their day. To not even give some nod to Christianity when they the chance to do so speaks volumes.

Second, they were politicians. With politics comes rhetoric, but not necessarily conviction. Politicians say what they think their constituents want to hear. It’s hard to verify their genuine Christian cred, as opposed to the rhetoric they might think their constituents want to hear.

JMartin
"but for public consumption he acted the pious Christian, went to Sunday services at the Capitol, etc."

Hardly the first or the last. Lincoln never made a single public or known private reference to God until he ran for office.

JMartin
Oh, I read your post. It just seemed somewhat bizarre, the conclusion you came to; you choose 1947 as the start of secularists starting the drama, but that seems to assume that either secularists didn't exist prior to 1947 or were treated with the utmost respect by the religious in this country for their lack of belief. Do you want to walk that back? I'm honestly fine with letting you clarify before I start delving into it.

"The correct attitude of the various governments should be the same as our Founders, "Positive Neutrality," as the title of a book says. Neutrality of course, that no one is to be given special preferment; 'positive' in the sense that religion is basically a good thing, no matter how badly it has been lived out by a few."

Well, I'd take issue with "a few" as well as the notion of positive neutrality. I personally think it ought to be neutrality with no qualifier.

It's also problematic for you to attempt to define what all secularists believe - and your definition is found in no dictionary, incidentally; I've noticed that tendency amongst the religious, and I think it comes from the mutual misunderstanding between the two groups. Some believe religion should be stamped out, others do not. There's no set doctrine or dogma with being a rationalist. There's no global call to overthrow religion. Some believe we'd be better off, others see it as a harmless indulgence, still others see real merits in the philosophies espoused while finding the framework to be nothing but myth and superstition. We don't have a Pope. We don't have a catechism.

AnnRKey
Yes, 'Ann,' your thinking is anarchic.

AnnRKey quotes part of a private letter from Thomas Jefferson, and somehow thinks that it adds to the conversation. Jefferson was a sneak; he put many of his true feelings into private letters, as with the 1803 letter to the Connecticut Baptists, but for public consumption he acted the pious Christian, went to Sunday services at the Capitol, etc. He also told people what he thought they wanted to hear--true snake/politician. This is the man who publicly wrote and spoke against slavery, but kept owning them. This is also the fool that was a fan of the french revolution, the worst period in human history, because it became the model for the statistically worse bolshevik and chinese revolutions. And AnnRKey cites this mo-ron as his/her authority?

Excellent article 2
. An otherwise responsible female will choose to end an unwanted pregnancy in its earliest period of gestation to avoid pain and suffering for herself, her family and society. Is that condemnable or should it be encouraged? My answer is : neither. It is strictly a matter of private choice. Religion should have absolutely nothing to do with it. God and the scriptures should not be brought into it because it turns off anyone from the idea of a fascist God. The idea of sin to be associated with the dealing of the outcome only, is moronic. The behavior should be where intervention should be, if at all, not the remedy of the outcome. The issue of abortion is what polarizes the Christian community of honest, wise Christians from fanatic scripture reciting, dishonest Christians. Our youth are more keen on discerning incongruence in Christian dogmas.
Homosexuality is an issue most young people would go into the trenches for. Even very young normal persons get it, that homosexuality is an aberrant, deviant and unnatural practice. Our youth is as disgusted by homosexual practices as is the God of the Bible. It is only natural to react in horror and disgust in homosexual practices. If we would have enough people who would respect the normalcy of an early termination of an unwanted pregnancy, Christian conservatives could defeat the rise of homosexual intrusion upon societal norms by the increase in numbers of overall Christians.

Excellent article
Excellent article, analyzing a much decried Newsweek report. Christians are revolted because they never read the article, so Mr. Gerson is summarizing it.
“A younger generation of evangelicals and their leaders, while generally remaining culturally conservative, tend to view the religious right's model of social engagement as too narrow in focus and too negative in tone.”
This is very true. I have two children and I befriended their friends. From what I heard from them I could perfectly understand them, because I did not forget my youthful questioning of social norms. If I would have been a rigid contrarian, as most extreme right wingers are, I would have lost them rather than influence them. That is what’s been happening to Christianity at large. Many Christian souls are turned off by “fire and brimstone” preaching of hell if one is merely human and makes mistakes. If one, being human that we are, tries to correct a mistake in a human fashion, the Christian right-wing zealot is condemning them to hell, right here on Earth. That is no way to enlarge the Christian Community. I am referring here to abortion extremists, who feel that every human fertilization is God ordained. That is a fallacy that only a Christian liberal or a Christian phony can support. When a man and a woman in a state of inebriation ( of any sort, including “love”)copulate and accidentally produce an unwanted, unprepared for and “sin” conceived life, than should that life be considered “sacred”, or God ordained? Does it make sense that sinful behavior produces “holy” offspring? Only liberal Christians of today can claim that. “Judge the tree by its fruits” says the Bible. Why do Christians ignore social reality? It didn’t used to be like this. Christians decry the decline of morality and the social consequences of high numbers of out-of wedlock births, yet, according to them, ALL conceptions should be forced to end in human life. That is total oxymoronic nonsense.

Scurvy, if you read my comment
it clearly stated that the first public enforcement of the religion of secularism was in 1947 with the Everson Scotus case. Secular is fine, that there are legitimate spheres of influence for religion and for the worldly. Secular-ism is the quasireligion that says that there is no such thing as a religious realm, and any indication of such should be stamped out, usually by unelected courts or over reaching executives. The Court has reinforced Everson ever since; there's your polarizing.

As i said, prior to that date, government and religion were viewed as complementary, mutually reinforcing values and good patterns of action for citizens. Niether one dominated the other; you notice, there was no theocracy, no rule by any sect of clerics against which the 1947 decision was rebelling. The correct attitude of the various governments should be the same as our Founders, "Positive Neutrality," as the title of a book says. Neutrality of course, that no one is to be given special preferment; 'positive' in the sense that religion is basically a good thing, no matter how badly it has been lived out by a few.

Paula says:
“Over 80% of our population believe in God and the sanctity of Jesus Christ. We will let you live alongside us as long as you do not try to destroy us.”

What an obnoxious statement. And an inaccurate one. A recent poll revealed that 65% of American Christians believe that it is possible to achieve eternal salvation without Christ’s help. So, no, 80% of our population do not believe in the “sanctity of Jesus Christ.” Add in the soaring divorce rate among Christians, their violent behavior and lack of charitable giving, and really, the issue isn’t how many people identify with Christianity but rather, how well are Christians practicing their faith?

JMartin
"Is there polarization? Sure, but the secularists started it; any polarization by conservatives is rightful self defense."

We did? When?

What is really declining.......
Is the circulation figures for Newsweek.

Also, The Catholic Church is doing just fine. Go find out how many adults became Catholics during the Easter Vigil last Saturday.

Christian America, non-sectarian
government.

Gerson falls into a common error, sayinig this is not Christian America because we do indeed have a secular, non-sectarian government. This identifies nation with government, especially the fedgov, and that is a liberal mistake. But, thank the Lord, our country is much more than our mere government. The nation was founded by sincere practicing Christians, from the Pilgrims and the Puritans, and don't forget the Spanish missionaries in the Southwest. But yes, our fedgov may not endorse one religion or denomination.

Someone asks "are these worldviews incompatible?" No, because every one of the Founders were sons of both the liberal Enlightenment and some form of weaker or stronger Christianity. They found the mix very compatible, and so did the government they founded from 1787 until approx. 1947, when the first of the secularist supreme court rulings were issued.

Is there polarization? Sure, but the secularists started it; any polarization by conservatives is rightful self defense.

FALSE PHONEY REPORTS ABOUT CHRISTIANS
I AM A 100% CHRISTIAN CATHOLIC CARRYING AMERICAN VETERAN WHO SEES MY CHURCHES JAMMED PACKED AT EVERY MASS EVERY SAT AND SUN (ATTEND BOTH) STANDING ROOM ONLY. THE REPORT IS FALSE IGNORANT AND BIASED FOR LEFT WING COMMUNIST/SOCIALIST AGENDA THAT PROMOTES OTHER AGENDA INCLUDING ISLAM, BIGOTRY, ATHIESTS AND THE REST OF THE DEVIL WORSHIPERS. THE ABC POLL JUST RELEASED HAS 95% VOTED THAT CHRISTIANITY IS ALIVE AND WELL IN USA...SO SOMEONE IS AGAIN BIASED IN THE LEFT WING MEDIA AND OR WHITE HOUSE. I GUESS I WAS RIGHT WE THE PEOPLE 1/2 KNEW MCCAIN WOULD NOT PULL THIS NONSENSE BUT 1/2 OF THE OBAMAS NOT EDUCATED OR LACK KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THIS GUYS AGENDA IS...NO CHURCH NO CHRIST NO GUNS SPEND MONEY MORE TAXES BACK OFF ON NATIONAL THREATS IRAN KOREA. HE WAS PRO ISRAEL PRIOR TO ELECTION NOW HAS WET FEET AND SPEAKS WEAKLY ABOUT BACKING ISRAEL
THE COUNTRY LOOKS LIKE ITS STEPPING UP EFFORTS TO REMOVE THESE NUTS FROM OFFICE MAYBE A THIRD PARTY OR MORE SOLID REPUBLICAN PARTY
US ARMY RETIRED HARD

Opfor311
"While the leaders followed their post-millennial idea that man would be redeemed by enlightened social policies, the members saw that the world was not progressing in that way, and if anything was getting worse."

The logical sequitur to that statement is that society hit its plateau in 1637 (the year that Descartes published 'Discourse on the Method' and, arguably, the start of the Enlightenment) and has been going downhill since.

If that is indeed the case in the minds of fundamentalists, then I'm with Dennis Prager in agreeing that our world views are completely and entirely incompatible.

Paula
"We will let you live alongside us as long as you do not try to destroy us."

No. We'll live alongside you because we, too, are Americans, and our beliefs - or lack thereof - are precisely equal to yours in the eyes of the Constitution. There's no "letting" about it.

"Over 80% of our population believe in God and the sanctity of Jesus Christ."

That's incorrect. Total religious affiliation is at around 75%, and not all of those are Christian. Also, as mentioned by the article itself, that number is trending slowly but steadily downwards. Statistics were on the side of people who believed the earth was flat in 1092 as well; rationalists have long since learned not to be unduly concerned with lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Religion
I believe that it is the will of Liberals and progressives for all fundamental Christians and Conservatives to disappear. So the thread is merely wishful thinking.
I am offended by the author's statement that "Christian America "has always been a heresy a historical error and a blunder" Mr. Author, you need to back that up with articles that back up your own heresy.

If you Libs and Progressives and Athiests desire for us to disappear, don't hold your breath. Statistics are on our side. Over 80% of our population believe in God and the sanctity of Jesus Christ. We will let you live alongside us as long as you do not try to destroy us.

CYCLES OF FAITH IN AMERICA
Some are reporting that the Church in America has died or is dying and that fewer and fewer Americans identify themselves as believers in the Judeo-Christian Tradition. if so then it's prelude to a great revival. Religious faith like the climate and economy has its cycles of warmth and cold, boom and bust. Faith will return to our country along with the spirit of liberty and the Godless forces of tyranny will be routed from the places of power.

Click ApolloSpeaks and read my piece: Evidence of Divine Providence Supporting the Pro-Life Movement.

Good News, Bad News
I agree with Opfor, that the decline in "mainline" denominations has been caused by a wholesale departure from focusing on the unique aspects of faith, and instead have become self-righteous service organizations.

However, I think we should be disturbed by the trend away from churches. I certainly don't agree with everything that any of the denominations do, but it is dangerous to separate yourself wholly from a church. Religion can't simply mean "what I believe" like we are being taught to believe. Divide and conquer is a powerful strategy. It is not something we should fall into unaware.

I had this conversation yesterday...
with my husband on another related matter.

We were wondering if those with more dominion theology interpretations were the ones responsible for fueling the development of the "Christian Right" political arm of politics rather than a study your Bible, pray for guidance, and vote your conscience as an individual approach to politics for believers.

Am I correct in assuming dominion theology is a common view among mainline protestants? If it is, could that be a factor in the decline of the "Christian Right?"

I'm an Independent Baptist myself, so I definitely fall into the evangelical or fundamentalist category. We are getting more people from Southern Baptist Churches who are fed up with very "organized" (read Southern Baptist Convention) associations.

Our doctrine is very compatible with many Bible Churches who are not at all interested in denomination labels, so categorizing them and others like them maybe bring unexpected results.



What is everyone else out there experiencing?

Thank you Opfor
Opfor has given an interesting analysis. I need to chew on it for a bit.

In large part
the reason for the decline of the 'Mainline' denominations was the widening gap between the theological liberals who took over the colleges, and then the pulpits, and the members in the pews who remained mostly theologically conservative.

While the leaders followed their post-millennial idea that man would be redeemed by enlightened social policies, the members saw that the world was not progressing in that way, and if anything was getting worse. They were won over by a pre-millennial viewpoint that better fit the world around them, and began to move into the evangelical churches that were more in tune with their beliefs.
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