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Friday, February 06, 2009
Michael Gerson :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Real Scandal of Religion
by Michael Gerson
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WASHINGTON -- I recall sitting at a Kigali restaurant with a Tutsi woman who described the death of her younger sister, a university student, during the Rwandan genocide. The girl had been given up for murder by one of her own teachers, who was a nun. The survivor across from me, previously a Catholic, had never attended church again. In the sacrifice of the Mass, she could only see the sacrifice of her sister.

Many items on the list of horribles laid at the door of religion are libels or exaggerations. But this charge -- the indifference or complicity of many Christians during the great genocides of modern history -- is one of the genuine scandals.

In Hitler's Germany, Christians responded to mass murder with general acquiescence and only isolated defiance. Protestants earned the most shame. In the Evangelical Lutheran Church elections of 1932, so-called "German Christians" won two-thirds of the vote -- and later praised the fight "against the political and spiritual influence of the Jewish race." Catholic leaders were less overt in their anti-Semitism, but hardly heroic in their resistance -- usually accommodating rather than confronting the Nazi regime. "Charity is well and good," said one Vatican official at the time, "but the greatest charity is not to make problems for the church."

During the Rwandan genocide, writes Timothy Longman, "Numerous priests, pastors, nuns, brothers, catechists and Catholic and Protestant lay leaders supported, participated in, or helped to organize the killings." Two Benedictine nuns collaborated with Hutu militias in the murder of 7,000 people just outside their convent grounds. A priest participated in the burning and bulldozing of a church with 2,000 men, women and children inside.

It is very difficult to understand how those who worship a man on a cross could help to drive the bloody nails themselves. But the record is clear: When religion is infected by racism, ideology or extreme nationalism, it can become a carrier of hatred instead of conscience. And when churches are concerned mainly for their institutional self-preservation, they often end up neck-deep in compromise or paralyzed by cowardice.

This is the historical context for the Catholic Church's recent lifting of the excommunication against Richard Williamson, a bishop of the ultra-conservative Society of St. Pius X. Williamson claimed last month, "I believe that the historical evidence is strongly against, is hugely against 6 million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler. ... I believe there were no gas chambers."

There is no reason to believe that Pope Benedict XVI has backtracked on the admirable Catholic engagement of the Jewish community under John Paul II. Benedict was obviously distressed and surprised by the Williamson controversy, using his audience last week to affirm his "full and indisputable solidarity" with Jews. His attempted reconciliation with dissidents such as Williamson was intended to be a statement about church unity, not about Holocaust history.

But it was a large, insensitive error. The Vatican admitted that Williamson's Holocaust denial was "unknown to the Holy Father at the time he revoked the excommunication." Not only the Obama administration struggles with an incompetent vetting process.

The stakes of such failure, however, are higher for the Vatican. Christianity -- still accused by the anger of genocide survivors and haunted by the unquiet ghosts of Auschwitz and Kigali -- cannot tolerate leaders who deny the Holocaust without adding to its greatest scandal and further discrediting its deepest ideals.

Benedict has ended up at the right place, demanding that Williamson recant his statements. But serious damage has been done because the wounds are so recent, and the historical offense so massive.

While Christian resistance to the Holocaust was rare, there were exceptions. Bernhard Lichtenberg, the provost of St. Hedwig's Cathedral in Berlin, was convicted of violating the Sedition Law after two parishioners informed on him to the Nazis. The judge summed up his crime as follows: "On 29 August 1941, the defendant held evensong ... before a large congregation. He closed the service with a prayer in which he said, among other things: 'Let us now pray for the Jews and for the wretched prisoners in the concentration camps.' ... He states that he has included the Jews in his prayers ever since the synagogues were first set on fire and Jewish businesses closed."

Lichtenberg served two years in prison and died on the way to Dachau. A church dedicated to his ideals cannot be the church of Bishop Williamson.

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About The Author
Michael Gerson writes a twice-weekly column for The Post on issues that include politics, global health, development, religion and foreign policy. Michael Gerson is the author of the book "Heroic Conservatism" and a contributor to Newsweek magazine.
 
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RIP
This thread appears to finally be dead. All threads of human reason eventually do die. Thanks be to God that while worldly debate withers and human reason fades away, "the Word of our God shall stand for ever" (Isaiah 40:8).

My Comment
RIP

Bryan - make a comment!
.

Is this thread down
Has this thread finally died or as is there a faint heartbeat?

Rich D.
I had read the text already. I agree the author wants you to jump to the conclusion those are Hitler's words but he's careful not to make the claim. I've learned from experience to trust primary sources only.

Donjindra
"You claim Hitler said: "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." But I believe that was Hermann Rauschning, not Hitler. And the link you referenced does not claim these are Hiltler's words."

Here is the full text - it sure looks like the author is attributing the quotes to Hitler:

'Hitler was blunter still on other occasions. "It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity," he said in 1933, "because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood." His countrymen would have to choose: "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both."'


BTW, we lost the "h" in Pittsburgh for only a few years (1890-1911). We had to beat the "h" out of some bureaucrats (borocrats? boroughcrats?) to get it back.

http://pittsburgh.about.com/od/about_pittsburgh/a/spelling. htm

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_there_an_'h'_at_the_end_of _Pittsburgh

RepAt
You needn't apologize to me - I wasn't offended by anything that you wrote.

The questions is, what do we call a bad Christian. Jesus says that he doesn't know them even when they invoke his name. I don't need to label them atheists nor attribute their evil works to atheists, so we don't disagree.

They are theists of some sort in their minds, I suppose, but not followers of the true God.

Rich D.
You claim Hitler said: "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." But I believe that was Hermann Rauschning, not Hitler. And the link you referenced does not claim these are Hiltler's words.

Rich D.
"Whether you want to call Hitler an atheist, pagan, Wodenist, or devil worshipper is up to you, but he was most certainly not a Christian."

He was certainly no atheist. But regardless of whether or not he was a Christian, it's certainly true that the vast majority of his followers were Christians. Without those followers Hitler would have been nothing.

RichD.
I have already retracted my singling out of Catholocism, let me extend that apology to you as well.

I know that Christ was quoted as saying that his followers will be known by their works. My frustration is that atheists are constantly passed the blame for the actions of bad Christians. A believer may go against everything their faith stands for but if they believe in a higher power they are not an atheist. Bad theists are not atheists by default.

No faith that I am aware of condones the kind of actions that Hitler took, except for maybe Islam. What I should have said is that if you look at the groups that typically have issues with Jews and Homosexuals they are Christian, certainly not atheists. For an atheist to single out Jews and Gays makes no sense at all.

RepAt
"My original post was in reference to the ever so popular assertion that Hitler was an atheist. A little common sense will dictate that he was not and if he was the actions he is hated for are not those of an atheist."

Perhaps you can elaborate on that. What he professed is mostly irrelevant, although there is sufficient evidence that he lied in his early statements about the churches and that he would never punish anybody because of their religious faith (Jews?).

Christ says that his followers are known by their works. Whether you want to call Hitler an atheist, pagan, Wodenist, or devil worshipper is up to you, but he was most certainly not a Christian.

What is this "common sense" of which you speak, and what faith would countenance his actions of mass murder?

RepAt
states: There probably isn't any one issue that all in a group agree on completely.

I can't imagine anyone who could disagree with that statement!!! But who knows???

I don't suppose you've ever read the Catechism of the Catholic Church? You might find it to be interesting....just a thought.

I want to end this by saying, "God Bless," and I don't want you to think I'm being facetious--because I really mean it. My belief that God exists is real to me and I really DO want God to bless you. Good night.

truetolife
Apology accepted, I think one of the biggest mistakes ever made during communication is the "blanket statement", something I too am guilty of. There probably isn't any one issue that all in a group agree on completely.

I'm not sure if anything in-particular propels atheism, as there are no central belief sets or teachings that unite us as a group. In regards to the moral compass, I would have to say that what is good for society or even humanity in general decides what is right or wrong. How anybody can think that abortion is good for anybody is beyond me.

A bit off subject but this may help explain us a little. I'm sure you remember during Christmas time a group of atheists that posted signs that said something to the effect of "why believe in God, be good for goodness sake". There was quite a stink on this site about their message but what nobody ever mentioned was that they posted those signs to promote an event where they gave away sweaters to the homeless in the area. There was certainly an agenda thrown in with their charity but that is nothing foreign to charitable religious organizations that wish to "spread the good news".

RepAt
Well. Let me apologize also. I guess that when I see so much bashing of my religion--I get a bit testy!!!! I'm sure glad that you do not condone abortion. I guess that I don't know enough about what propels atheism to understand the "whys" of your moral compass. Just humor me then--but I don't think that God is finished with you yet!!!

truetolife
Perhaps my initial comment singling out Catholicism was out of line, for that I apologize. It is frustrating to hear how a lack of divine belief is the cause for horrible acts perpetrated by individuals. Dictators of every faith or lack there of believe they are above the law whether it is civil or higher, and that is what causes their behavior.

Time and time again atheists are blamed for the actions of bad Christians. Consider your statement; "Same with ANYONE who says they believe in God and then say that abortion is okay. It is even a mortal sin to have voted for Obama." Regardless of their actions, if they believe there is a higher being they are not an atheist. The other issue I have with this statement is it implies that not believing in some form of higher being will cause someone to condone the horrible immorality of abortion. Between myself, and the three other atheists I know personally, none condone abortion (one is even a Chaplain's assistant if you can believe that), and none of us voted for Obama.

Just because atheists don't believe in "Sin" in its religious sense it doesn't mean that we don't understand "wrong" or "immoral" and very few think that "anything goes".

RepAt
I understand what you are saying. However, the fact that SIN exists in the world has nothing to do with loving the sinners. It is the road less traveled to admonish the sinner and try to help lead that person to everlasting life. Only those who are selfish and think only of themselves are the ones who say, "anything goes," and "there is no sin." How easy is that? No one threatens you. No one villifies you. You, after all, are part of this world. It is much more difficult to be IN this world but not be part OF it.

If Catholics attack the homosexual -- that is sin. But it is also sinful to be party to that lifestyle and endorse it.

As far as Hitler is concerned. He was baptized Catholic, he even considered being a priest. So what? Kennedy, Pelosi, and Biden also say that they are Catholic. That doesn't mean they are. If people don't want to follow the rules--then they shouldn't say they're part of the club, in a manner of speaking. Hitler was obviously not a man of faith. Same as Obama. He can say whatever he wants but his actions show that he has no faith whatsoever. Same with ANYONE who says they believe in God and then say that abortion is okay. It is even a mortal sin to have voted for Obama. Those people have partaken in the evil of this man and they will have to answer for that. Like I said, it is much more difficult to be IN the world, but not OF it.

truetolife
I'm going to try and bring this back into context. What I am trying to say is that what the official teachings of the RCC and present projects of the Pope and his higher-ups do not reflect the actions of MANY of the regular adherants to the faith. You may personally live your life in a way that personifies every good thing the church has to offer (I admit there are many). Unfortunately, there are a great number of Catholics that attack individuals for their sexual preference or different beliefs, even different sects of Christianity.

My original post was in reference to the ever so popular assertion that Hitler was an atheist. A little common sense will dictate that he was not and if he was the actions he is hated for are not those of an atheist.

12 million
Hitler: "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both."

http://www.nationalreview.com/shiflett/shiflett012102.shtml

2-3 million
Pol Pot declared, "This is Year Zero," and that society was about to be "purified." Capitalism, Western culture, city life, religion, and all foreign influences were to be extinguished in favor of an extreme form of peasant Communism.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/pol-pot.h tm

60-100 million
The Chinese Government pronounced:

The Chinese Communist Party considers that its ideology and that of religion are two forces that cannot co-exist and occupy the same spot at the same time. ... the differences between the two (ie, science and religion) can be likened to those between light and darkness, between truth and falsehood. There is absolutely no possibility to reconcile the mutually-opposed world views of science and religion.

This Communist Chinese view was all-pervasive. In Mao Zedong's own words, "... but of course, religion is poison. It has two great defects: It undermines the race ...(and) retards the progress of the country. Tibet and Mongolia have both been poisoned by it."

http://www.tibet.com/whitepaper/white7.html

40-60 million (let's keep score)
"Communism was a comprehensive, all-embracing religion and not simply a political party, political system or philosophy. This fact is illustrated by the numerous ways in which Communism embraced and attemped to promulgate peculiar quasi-religious (and often clearly anti-scientific) beliefs which had nothing all to do with politics or government. Although Communism typically touted itself as anti-religious and pro-science, it was, in fact, deeply anti-scientific and clearly a religion. One of Communism's hallmarks in the Soviet Union and China was its aggressive and violent suppression of other religions."

Stalin said, "You know, they are fooling us, there is no God... all this talk about God is sheer nonsense." - E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin

See

http://www.adherents.com/people/ps/Joseph_Stalin.html

RepAt
And? What exactly are you trying to say? I feel as though I absolutely live out my Catholic Faith in a faithful, non-doormat way. We are the church militant--and I take my orders from Jesus. So, in this case, I would say that the "real" Catholic is the one who follows the "real" God. The Catholic Church is the place where the "real" God is historically made known to us--the one, holy, catholic, apostolic church. In that regard, the Pope is allowed to give the marching orders. In America, the Pope and his teachings are constantly being twisted and turned -- just look at how the MSM fondles and coddles Obama -- they do just the opposite with the Catholic Church. The gullible fall for it everytime. That is why people like Kennedy and Pelosi and Biden who call themselves Catholic will have much more to answer for....

truetolife
"you would realize that the Jewish faith and homosexuality are both areas of special love and pastoral care within Catholicism."

Could this be in an effort to fix the black eye of the church.?

"Read something once in awhile. For crying out loud. You probably think that Kennedy, Pelosi and Biden are real Catholics too, don't you???"

Not being a liberal I don't pay too much attention the the personal lives of your examples. However, all I need to read to see the actions of "real Catholics" are posts on this very site. you may like to think that the Pope and his Cardinals are who personify Catholicism but that is not the case. It is the everyday adherent to the Catholic faith. Think about it this way: who are the "real" police officers, the Chief of Police or those on the beat? How about soldiers, Gen. Patraeus or the rank and file men and women with boots on the ground?

Fabulous Fabious Flounders - 2
The reason that I chose only Roman Catholic sources is so that you would have to argue on the basis of the content and not the source, not because that teaching on sin is different from the teaching of any other Christian denomination. Well, you don't argue content.

I also quoted the relevant scriptures. One would think that the Magisterium and the Bible would be enough to make you sit up and listen, but one would be wrong.

Apparently, your pride prevents you from doing that because of your need to save face. You also never miss an opportunity to ride your anti-reformation hobby-horse and whip Luther's dead mule, even when it isn't relevent to the topic of discussion.

The words of several Catholic documents, Scripture, the opinions of three or more Catholics, and the opinions of more than a few other Christians are powerless in the face of your hard head. We can only pray that you wake up and that your heresy is not picked up by any weak Christians reading here.

So you persist to resist and insist: "You and nobody on this thread have refuted my premises that Christians are not sinners, and that sinners will not enter Heaven.(1)"

Well, many have performed the first part, and none of us see the need to refute the second part as we [Christians] all agree with it.


(1) Grammatically, this sentence says that I HAVE refuted you, and so have the nobodies here, but I gave you a break!

RepAt
states: Anti-sematism and gay bashing are some of Catholicism’s favorite past times.

If you knew anything about Catholicism (which it is clear you do NOT), you would realize that the Jewish faith and homosexuality are both areas of special love and pastoral care within Catholicism. Read something once in awhile. For crying out loud. You probably think that Kennedy, Pelosi and Biden are real Catholics too, don't you???

Fabulous Fabious Flounders - 1
(No, not a fish market, but resembles one...)

FC: "Sola Scriptura" is nowhere in the Bible.

Neither is the Trinity. Neither am I arguing it. Are you awake when you read?


FC: To:Rich D.:I do not need any "articles" I do not need to read your "articles".

Yes, of course – your mind is made up and the facts don’t matter.


FC: If you like the content of "RC" articles, why don't you join the Roman Catholic Church?

A non sequitur.


FC: You did not and can not refute anything that I have said.

I just conceded that either you are asleep or that your mind is made up. That is why refutation is impossible.

FC: Referring to "articles" is not directly responding to or refuting my comments.

LoL, are you nuts?! You put the word “articles” in quotes because you can’t even concede that the cites that prove you wrong are Roman Catholic boilerplate sources.


FC: You and nobody on this thread have refuted my premises that Christians are not sinners, and that sinners will not enter Heaven.

Let’s hear for a second from dreadnaught: “You are overstepping…” You both think that it is cute that I quote RC sources, but you ignore dreadnaught’s refutation of you.

(cont)

RepAt
I didn't say "mean" - I said "nice". It isn't nice to continually distort another's arguments, and he does it repeatedly so it must not be inadvertant.

Of course, I am not tasking it personally - I'm just rebuking a brother. :-)

RichD.
"You are not a nice guy."

It's not that FC is necessarily a mean person. He may very well be a nice guy. He is however, most definitely in denial of reality and he twists quotes and facts, or just makes them up all together, to advance his ridiculous arguments.

I wouldn't take it personal.

Fabius Cunctator
Why do you think you are allowed to make up your own statistics and then present them as fact?

“All of the persecutions or deaths (which are prohibited by Christian doctrine) caused by false Christians in all of history combined are less that 0.01% of the people murdered and massacred by Atheists like Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, and other tyrannical atheistic despots in history.” and then there is the “99.99% that know there is a god” that you have posted on other threads. Would you be willing to provide the research that provides these numbers?

By the way, Hitler was not an atheist, he was raised a Catholic. Towards the end of his life he showed that he was confused by making both Christian and atheistic comments. More importantly, he singled out JEWS and HOMOSEXUALS for his genocide. Are these the actions of an atheist? Anti-sematism and gay bashing are some of Catholicism’s favorite past times. And Stalin? As your fellow believer dreadnaught said “Nonsense. Stalin considered himself God”. You can’t believe yourself a god and deny your own existence, can you?

Sorry friend, you’re going to have to stop passing the buck. These men were believers, and your stats are just garbage.


Fabius Cunctator, you are deliberately
misquoting me. Why?

According to Rich D.:
1) We are all sinners. (Yes, see the Bible)
2) Sinners will not enter Heaven (See the Bible, OT & NT.)
3) Therefore: We are all going to Hell.

I said numerous times that we are adjudged righteous by being washed clean by the blood of Jesus. I'm tired of your stupid lies. There is a part of you that is seriously out of control.

FC: "Question: So, why be a Christian?"

Stupid question, and a non sequitur even without the logical error you make above. You are not a nice guy.

Dreadnaught
D: "Where's my pal, Rich D?"

Good heavens! I go away on a retreat for a few days, and dreadnaught gets withdrawal symptioms! You may exhale now.

D: "Rich must have had a hot date. He vanished."

Maybe I should give you a warning next time, or even ask permission. Is sex always on your mind?

D: I said to Rich-- "Because you stand opposed to the one Church Jesus Christ founded for ALL Christians."

He answered, "Patently false, brother."

He must know something I don't know. What is patent, My Friend?"

Pal. Friend. What next?

Perhaps you should read the Nicene Creed again where it says "And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church."

D: "He is right now half a Catholic; and I know God loves him."

But do you?

Dear DREADNAUGHT
What did I say that you think is not Apostolic teaching?

Dear Bryan, I'm impressed
Your last post is quite sound in some parts. A good start, not altogether what the apostles taught us.

Most important is your evident love for Jesus Christ Our savior. Without which we are doomed to fall. It is love for Jesus that keeps us faithful. Even if we stumble; Our Lord comes to help us make amends and resolve never to sin again.

Perfect charity-- love of God, (LOVE JESUS!) and perfect contrition; awakening to the immense evil of our sin, praying for God's mercy-- every Christian's road during this pilgrimage. It seems an endless journey, with so many holes along our way in life. He gives us grace to persevere, however, and life is short. There is nothing to fear! Just as long as love for Jesus Christ burns in the Christian's heart.

To FABIUS CUNCTATOR
You seem to be inferring that Christians are repentant. And you are right! For repentance is what the Christian life is all about - Martin Luther actually teaches this in the 95 Theses.

And repentance is contrition and faith - it's sorrow over sin and trusting in Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world. Therefore, repentance is something that sinners do. If I didn't sin, I wouldn't need to repent. There would be no purpose in changing my direction if I were going the right way all the time.

I also would no longer need Christ's forgiveness in this life if I could achieve perfection here. I would be in Heaven. But like the Apostle Paul, I'm not able to achieve that perfection in this life (Philippians 3:12-14).

As one who breaks the Ten Commandments every day, I understand that Scripture's call to repentance needs to be at the heart and center of my daily life. And I'm truly thankful that the Holy Spirit works repentance in my life. For if salvation depended upon my work, my keeping up my end, I could never be saved.

I'm a sinner. I fail to live the perfect life that Jesus demands. I'm not happy about my sin nor am I proud of it. I confess it because it is true. Aren't we supposed to confess our sins? (Proverbs 28:13, James 5:16)

My hope is in Jesus' perfect obedience in my place. His shed blood takes away my sins. I look to His life for salvation - not mine. That's because my works can't save me.

God's grace in Christ sustains and keeps me every day. This grace declares me innocent and sinless - even though, by nature and in my actions, I'm not. Justification is the declaration of righteousness. And I'm declared righteous because through my Baptism into Christ, through faith, my sins have been charged to Jesus Christ and His sinlessness has been charged to an undeserving sinner like me.




reply to Sharon #171
For pity sakes, get your religious history right! John Calvin was in Geneva, not Germany. Martin Luther was in Germany. Calvin and his followers down to this today contend that Christianity, correctly understood, requiers close ties between the Christian church and the state. God is not satisfied with any government that does not make the protection of His church and the maintenance of its teachings a central theme. Like or not, Calvinism requires something close to a theocracy.

You are overstepping, Fabius


Did you stop to consider that Christians have indeed gone to hell; almost indisputably?

Yes; because they didn't persevere in their faith, or they became lukewarm. Or they fell into sin of the flesh and into worldliness or avarice. They sinned.

These are sinners who could have repented. Christian sinners and LOST.

We must be prepared overall to PERSEVERE; Christ says those who overcome shall not have their names blotted out of the book of life. (Apoc 3,) He means necessarily it CAN be lost if we don't persevere.

I see what you've been leading at. You mean a Christian is already within the kingdom of God. That is so.

To FABIUS CUNCTATOR
YOU WROTE: "You either falsely believe that you are a sinner or are still a sinner. If you are a Christian, then you are not a sinner. You cannot be both a sinner and a Christian."

MY RESPONSE: I am a Christian (a saint) and sadly a sinner at the same time while I live in this world. And not only theologians like Martin Luther taught this, others like King David, the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John did as well. In fact, the Apostle John probably responded to your mis-understanding the best. READ 1 JOHN 1:8 - 2:2.

Anirban
you stated to Verbivore: Only those people count as they are directly affected by the wrong doing. That’s it.

Actually, we all make up the Mystical Body of Christ. When one person sins, it affects the entire body. Our actions are never isolated--they always affect others. Bernie Madoff is affecting our entire country, if not financially, then emotionally and spiritually. None of us lives in a vacuum--we're connected by the fact that we are all made in the image and likeness of God. When one hurts--we all do.

And by the way, you actually were quite eloquent in what you were saying....

Donjindra
Please do ask the questions. I come from a very large family (there were 42 of us first cousins although quite a few have died already). Some of these cousins put together a "Roots" book which I have continued to add to with each marriage, birth and death. But, as time goes on, there are still so many questions I wished that I had asked my parents about when they were still alive. I know that a lot of people could care less about their heritage, but I guess that I like the sense of belonging and many, colorful stories that help us understand some of the great "weaving" that is our life. Sometimes just knowing your grandmother's maiden names is something that you want to know as time goes by....it's amazing how themes seem to run in families and you never know who you might be "just like!" I hope it's not that fallen away priest!!!! Unless, of course, if he regained his faith and became a better priest because of his "dark night of the soul!" Good luck with learning more about our awesome ancestors!!!! Seems we're all connected in some way....

Verbivore
----------------------------

At any rate. If you believe you live a good life, have offended no deity, and expect nothingness beyond the cold of the grave, let me wish you well with that hope.

How is it you hope to make "whole" people you only "imagine" to have wronged? Can a murderer make a person whole? Can he restore the family of his victim? Can Bernie Madoff, restore and repay the 50B he has stolen? Not in 10 lifetimes. How big or how small a "slight" are you, on your own, able to forgive and restore?

Does God grade on a curve?

------------------------------------------------Sorry, for the delayed response. Yes I do on all counts, if you replace “deity” with flesh and blood people. Always tried to minimize harm in human transactions like many of us do, and morally, I consider myself nothing less than a self professed Christian.

As I said, my story is here today. I try to live it the fullest. May be it will be the grave or the pyre tomorrow. But hey who cares? You are dead right? No one can hurt you anymore. What will be, will be. You can’t change a bit , even with your well-intentioned prayers.

Who can forgive these people, except those who got robbed off life and property? Let the rule of law catch up with them. Let them get indicted and see if the victims wish to forgive them. Only those people count as they are directly affected by the wrong doing. That’s it. Remember these are real people with real hopes, aspirations and turmoil. You figure, how big or how small a "slight" they are, on their own.

God never figures anywhere. Never did, never will. Even if they burn in hell is no solace for me. I want them to be punished in this world. The last thing I like to see Bernie Madoff asking for forgiveness at the very end of his life, from God, evading the people he harmed.

Wish I could be more eloquent on this.

Where's my pal, Rich D?


Rich must have had a hot date. He vanished.

I said to Rich-- "Because you stand opposed to the one Church Jesus Christ founded for ALL Christians."

He answered, "Patently false, brother."

He must know something I don't know. What is patent, My Friend?

(Why does my intuition tell me Rich someday might return faithfully, to the Catholic Church in which all his blessed ancestors worshiped? Patently indisputable.)

He is right now half a Catholic; and I know God truly loves him.

dreadnaught
"only a nominal Christian can turn his/her back on the faith to abort a baby."

It could be you are right. But I suspect many of your committed Christians turn into nominal Christians when their feet are held to the fire. Whether they repent or not, the deed is done.

truetolife
Unfortunately I know nothing about my Czech heritage. My great-great grandfather settled in Pittsburg, PA. I grew up in Mercer, PA until age 11 and saw very little of my relatives. Then we moved to Texas and saw them even less. I do need to ask my father what he knows the next time I get back to Texas.

dreadnaught
truly terrifying to contemplate.....

Dear Truetolife
It may well be Hitler was baptized a Catholic. (Many atheists are.)

Very tragic; because the
Church teaches us; at baptism along with sanctifying grace and rebirth in Christ; Catholics are given what's known as the "baptismal character" which is an indelible mark on our souls. Like an imprinted character that designates us one of Christ's souls.

When a Catholic dies in mortal sin, which happens; the worst evil that can befall us--

He/she is dragged to hell and remains there forever. This is a bottomless abyss where suffering never ends. There's something just awful to contemplate about that. Every damned one who was baptized in this life has to carry the baptismal character there with him; like a bright, shining halo.

Having gone to damnation is bad enough. But to display such a sign there causes a Catholic's soul such great shame and disgrace that no pain can ever be greater for him. He has to feel it for eternity: "I was in the grace and holiness of the saints. It was all mine but I lost it forever!"

slippery atheist
He says:

"most of those getting "remorseless" abortions in the USA are also Christians. It's interesting that rarely do Christians count those abortions when they start adding up supposed atheistic killings."

Not so interesting, Sir. A sin like abortion may not be restricted to atheists. Even so; only a nominal Christian can turn his/her back on the faith to abort a baby.

There's an upside.

Christians often sin in the most godless way. Yet they also repent; because in their hearts they concede they were wrong. They confess at last there truly is a merciful God. (I've seen it.)

Atheists in the end may do the same. I hope so.


dreadnaught
It always upsets me when people say that Hitler was a Catholic. As if.....
That's exactly the same as saying that Ted Kennedy, Pelosi or Biden are Catholics.

The spirit of truth
Christ himself told us that our counsellor forever is the spirit of truth.

There is no doubt in my mind that many many people care little about the truth. These people regardless of their religious or political affiliation are the people to be wary of.

The only way to determine who cares little about the truth is to ask tough questions that you know the truthful answer to.

Those that deny the truth, care little about it.
Denying the truth defines hatred.

Questions like,

Since the fetus is a unique individual as defined by DNA fingerprinting and it is alive, why isn't abortion murder?

or,

Since reproduction is the result of human sexuality, why isn't homosexuality openly recognized as being less than equal to heterosexuality.

or,

Since affirmative action forces an equal result why isn't it recognized as opposing equal opportunity.

Anyone willing to test their spirit of truth?


donjindra's denial
Pardon, but;

Hitler wasn't a Catholic, though his faily had been. He was bereft of any faith. We know it because he committed suicide, after living the life of a merciless fiend. You might just as well declare Nero a Christian. Same with Stalin. He was no Christian.
Slavofiles he knew tried to make him come back to his early faith and failed. So skip that. I doubt if any Bolshevik ever believed in God. If we tote up the murders these folks committed as a group, it would eclipse Ivan the Terrible. Everybody knows that.

Donjindra
Oh that's really a sad story. I wonder if it is true too? I wonder if he ever regained his faith? I imagine you know that people rarely, if ever, intermarried back in the "old country." My grandmother, who lived in Moravia (no longer exists)had to call this man in their village "uncle" because he was 9 years older than her. Well, he came to America and settled in a small town in Wisconsin with other "Bohemians" and eventually brought her over and married her!!! I don't know the whole story of my Slovak (dad's side)of the family. But his parents were 100 percent Slovak. So when my dad and mom married, us seven kids were all 50 percent Slovak and 50 percent Bohemian! But I hardly meet anyone who is Slovak or Bohemian anymore! But I know that we're totally awesome!!! tee hee...

truetolive
The story is that my great-great grandfather was a priest who emigrated after losing his faith. I don't know if it's true.

Donjindra
My ancestors are also from the Czech Republic. All devout Roman Catholics too.....

dreadnaught
It’s relevant that the Nazis were Christians because some Christians want to make it relevant.

If you think Hitler did not believe in God then peruse a copy of Mein Kampf and get back to me as to what all of his references to God are doing there. Now if you want to claim he was lying, fine. Maybe he was. I do believe plenty of so-called Christians are lying about their beliefs. And if we go down that road maybe Marx and Stalin were lying about their atheism too.

I don’t think Stalin considered himself God. That’s way too humble.

I think I’ve mentioned before, donjindra is my name, Don Jindra. It’s an unusual name here but I understand it’s a common name in the Czech Republic, home of some of my ancestors. I never use anything but my real name.



donjindra connecting some dots?
"The German Nazis were Christians. It’s true some were strange ones and others were more New Age-like. But they were not atheists."

Why is this relevant? The Roman centurion who drove his lance into Jesus' side became a saint later on.

Our Pope was in Hitler Youth briefly; and countless others have reformed their lives for the sake of Christ. You should see that as very relevant.

"4) This is wildly inaccurate. First, Hitler was no atheist."

Wrong-- he was not brought up in an atheist home; and yet didn't believe in God afterwards.

"Stalin was a seminary student so, if you want to play. . . obviously his Christian upbringing warped his mind."

Nonsense. Stalin considered himself God. His idea of religion was: "How many divisions does the Pope have?" He was an atheist with a warped mind.

Are you from EARTH? What does donjindra mean, if you don't mind explaining?

dreadnaught
"Today they make legal abortion, killing of innocent unborn human beings, just short, remorseless work."

Truth is, most of those getting "remorseless" abortions in the USA are also Christians. It's interesting that rarely do Christians count those abortions when they start adding up supposed atheistic killings. Of course, China performs many abortions but who really knows how many irreligionists are in that bunch?

dreadnaught
I was responding to a Christian who seems fixated on death. But it wouldn't cross your mind to get at the root of a thing, would it? You'd never ask the Christian the same question even though that's where it should be asked.

--and yet,

"include all of the deaths from wars Christians waged, the starvations and disease they caused. Those numbers will easily match communist numbers.

Could this be?

NO; it isn't so. Christians have been on this earth only a score of centuries, and for the most part accomplished great things. What came up as loss for humanity is far less than what ungodly men have done over all of historical and even pre-historical ages.

Enemies of God are responsible for more horror and human misery than all the Christians who ever lived. Today they make legal abortion, killing of innocent unborn human beings, just short, remorseless work.


why the fixation on death, jindry?

There appears to be a phobia in your vacant mind set, donjindra.

Are you afraid?

Christians have always died without spreading lies about atheism. Is your main protestation that Christians can tolerate death for a good cause?

Fabius Cunctator
1) Not quite true. For example, the Albigensian Crusade.
2) It’s easy to find recent examples too, like in Nigeria or Bosnia,
3) The German Nazis were Christians. It’s true some were strange ones and others were more New Age-like. But they were not atheists.
4) This is wildly inaccurate. First, Hitler was no atheist. Stalin was a seminary student so, if you want to play your silly game of hardball accusation, obviously his Christian upbringing warped his mind. But if you want to count all of the deaths caused by communist incompetence and policy you’ll have to include, for example, all of the Native American deaths caused by Christians in the New World and Africa through their policies. You have to include all of the deaths from wars Christians waged, the starvations and disease they caused. Those numbers will easily match communist numbers.
5) Thank goodness we no longer have that yoke.


William
Find Jesus and find peace. Your post seemed to be screaming with inner pain.

Alen's only one of millions

Dear Alen,
There is one Church founded by Jesus Christ, and to whom the Holy Spirit, our Paraclete, came down. Today we know the Church as Holy, Catholic and apostolic. We are a flock, He is our Lord, and the Pope is His chief shepherd while here in the world. The shepherd is a fallible man if his decisions concern worldly things; wars, governments, human controversies. His word in matters of faith and morals can be infallible on occasions when he speaks *ex cathedra* --which see. Find it in a dictionary.

You've somehow determined he must judge EVERYTHING perfectly, or else our Church is sinful. You forgot, how Jesus prophesied to his Church that they should expect someday there would come SCANDALS. --THESE and other events pointed out during a long history, comprise our scandals.

The Church meantime is HOLY. Because Jesus IS the Catholic Church; we are His Mystical Body in one sphere. Other spheres of the Body are the Church suffering-- Purgatory. And Triumphant; all His saints in glory-- by His side in heaven.

HERE, we're members of the Church Militant, in whose lifetimes we try our best but sometimes squander our grace, in worldly trial and error.

If you have any question; ask and we'll try to explain further. Keep in mind-- you're only one of millions of others who need vital information. Because you truly love Jesus Christ. Thanks, Alen.


The Real Scandal of Religion
Why is this so surprising? When has religion ever had respect for rational evidence over faith in the supernatural? The hallmark of religion, whether Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or Islamic, is belief in a disembodied spirit that created the universe out of nothing. And on that illusory foundation, it presumes to build an entire edifice of knowledge and morality.

Religion has far more in common with irrational doctrines like Nazism and Communism than it does with a society in which people are free to make their own decisions instead of being subject to the arbitrary commandments of a supreme lord and master.

Today, the single most pernicious threat to the modern secular West is a religion -- Islamic fundamentalism -- which is straight out out of the Biblical Middle East with its stonings and hideously arbitrary punishments, all in the name of religious zealotry and a "God is Great" mentality.

If anything deserves to be worshipped, it is human reason and the value of life on earth, not death or some imaginary paradise beyond the grave.

Bill


Religion and Evil Acts
If one thinks the church is without fault in creating human suffering read the history of the Crusades. Read also of the church's persecutions of the Jews in the Middle Ages. The 20th century was a century of the holocaust. Read the noble prize winning book, "A Problem from Hell," by Samantha Power for an eye opening presentation.

Christianity has done great and noble things but so have other religions. We have all sinned and fallen short. The unselfishness of religious people cannot be canceled out. At the same time we cannot push our sins into a closet as if they are dirty laundry.Religion is the priceless gift given to all peoples and each one of us is responsible for the faith we say we have.

If I sin I sin my brother. If we want a better world let us live the religion we say we have. All the acts of kindness and unselfishness that occur all over the world everyday reflect good religion-if 'good' is the proper word-is alive and well.

If the institutional church refuses to act when action is needed the cowardice lies at the feet of the believer. It is the believer who hammers another nail into the hand on the cross.

Let us be the faith we espouse. Let it transform us, allow us to be the picture of the person we see in our dreams.

God bless us, but let us bless God.
The Writer


FC, you are correct - I have TWO legs to
stand on. Tell me when your sanctification is completed, you are adjudged perfect, and you obtain your perfect ressurected body. Sorry you don't like the RC articles I have referenced. Good night.

Give it up - we are all sinners.
http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0197.asp

Rich D.
Thank you.

Fabius (con't)
Is this sin? I don't, oddly enough, believe that it is sin but it is certainly not totally submitting my will to God's will either. Yet, this seems to be your litmus test for not being a sinner. Again, how many of us can truly submit our wills to God's will 100 percent of the time? So the one area that I don't believe is a sin for me is the one area that you would consider sinful! *sigh* Let me leave you with this last thought: Do you ever say the rosary? Because, the Hail Mary ends with, "Pray for us "sinners" now and at the hour of our death." My husband and I say the rosary every day--and I depend on our Blessed Mother and everyone else that I ask to pray for me (i.e. the Communion of Saints)to help me to avoid sin. But I am not always successful at this--many times when I am driving behind someone who is driving below the speed limit!!! So, in effect, your argument about submitting our wills to God's will and no longer being sinners may be logically "valid" but not "true" one hundred percent of the time.

Fabius
First of all, thank you for your response. Secondly, "logic" does not come naturally to me, I guess. Submitting our wills to the will of Jesus seems to be the acid test for you. I find it difficult to believe that we, as humans, are able to do this 100 percent of the time.

We may do it here and there or when we are "feeling" particularly religious. Our faith, however, has nothing to do with our "feelings." For instance, my husband and I have a 30 year old daughter who has been chronically ill for 23 of those years. She has already lost a finger to these auto immune diseases (Raynaud's Syndrome and Scleroderma) and all of her other fingers and also her toes and entire feet are compromised. She spent the entire month of November in hyperbaric chambers to try to save both feet. Now, she and her husband have 3 little ones. Granted, throughout this ordeal I have, at times, really "felt" like I said, "God, your will be done." But I guess that a miracle healing is always in the back of my mind. (con't).

Dreadnaught, Oink!
"hog for the spotlight"

You had more posts than I - 11 telling others how wrong they were, usually with name calling or handle mocking, one general complaint about RC bashing that hadn't occured, plus four to me but never in defense of your theology that I questioned.

I had only two to FC, four to you (only two of which were on the subject of sin), one joke, three on the column topic, and the rest were to Verbivore (4) and one to truetolife who is my dear sister.

The two to FC seem to have gotten under your thin skin, and perhaps my criticism of your bad theology on wrath did also. If you don't want criticism, then don't post. I see that FC is again going after truetolife with his sin heresy and psychobabble - she won't bite - she's too smart for that. He will attempt to relate it to RC doctrine to disguise it, but it's non-denominational. Just watch. BTW, she does yeoman's duty fighting abortion and is a woman of great faith.

You are funny, dreadnaught!
"Your entire grasp of doctrine is what you can glean from personal perusal and twisting of the Bible truths."

Well, funny man, how do you know that I study only by myself? Oh, just guessing? I would invite you to all of the Bible studies I attend and also teach.

"That's patently insupportable according to the scriptures themselves."

See, it gives you another straw man to burn. What fun!

"Because you stand opposed to the one Church Jesus Christ founded for ALL Christians."

Patently false, brother.

"[Y]our argument with Fabius Cunctator is irrelevant."

The truth is never irrelevant.

hog for the spotlight
Hey, Rich,

Settle down. I'm able to understand sin without you fussing about Fabius. If he wants to contradict us, let him.

The point I want to clarify is that YOU are a pot calling the kettle black; when you say he "twists the scripture."

Your entire grasp of doctrine is what you can glean from personal perusal and twisting of the Bible truths. That's patently insupportable according to the scriptures themselves. We have Christ's apostles and the Church. You aren't either authorized or competent to privately interpret scripture, anymore than Koresh or Jim Jones, or Mary Baker Eddy, me or your Mama is.

Because you stand opposed to the one Church Jesus Christ founded for ALL Christians. That's a straw dog? No-- your argument with Fabius Cunctator is irrelevant. You know it, but it presents you with a pointless bone to squabble over. Just tell him you're sure he's wrong. Give the rest of us a break, Professor.

Dreadnaught
"You have no verse to support protestant belief in Sola Scriptura; nor in any "reformed church.""

Straw man alert! That was never a topic. Do you want it to be?

Regarding the subject debate, I refuted FC with Roman Catholic teaching from several websites that used the same argument that I do. Three RCs have now weighed in against him. You'll note that FC was the first (and only one, other than you who now seems to think it important) to mention denominations, and I refused to play.

You apparently aren't happy unless you bring in some aspect of reformed theology, though irrelevant to the argument, or kick Luther's dog. Sad. Like M. W. says, we have the evil of genocide by abortion plus a corrupt government to fight.

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One." (1 John ff)

Here's the Koine:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1jo1.p df

Remember, he is addressing Christians.

Dreadnaught
"Forgive me, Rich--"

For what? Have you sinned?

Rich wants wiggle room

Forgive me, Rich--because I am amused seeing you accuse Fabius of "scripture twisting."

I repect you for your deep convictions. Why do you see it unimportant to respect Fabius for an honest conviction? No-- you want him guilty of twisting the scriptures!

Yet, in the past I asked of you-- a proof-text or valid application of text, wherein we are taught (biblically) that reading scripture is the sole rule of faith, opposed to doctrinal truth available only in Christ's Church.

You have no verse to support protestant belief in Sola Scriptura; nor in any "reformed church." Jesus was true to His word; the Catholic Church cannot be prevailed against; she is His Bride. Nor will she splinter into a myriad autonomous Christian faiths. He never intended it to happen, and never prophesied such events. Unless you can prove it from the Bible. That's become your grandiose faith.

truetolife
He doesn't care that he is in the minority - pride has overcome him and he makes up hypotheticals to try to prove his hopeless point in the face of contradictory testimony from all Christian sources.

Yes, that story could have been added, but even if not, it doesn't prove his point. There is no testimony from Scripture or the Magisterium that says that she successfully went sinless. Just because Jesus tells us to be perfect doesn't enable us to be - there is no testimony to that, either. We will be seen as perfect because Christ paid the price - to say that we ARE perfect means we now have no need of Him in our lives. That is the ultimate blasphemy.

Quite frankly, I don't unsderstand how a seemingly intelligent person brought up in a Christian tradition can be so in error on basic doctrine. I suppose that he omits the phrase "forgive us our debts" from the Lord's Prayer, as it no longer applies to him. What a big bag of stones he must carry! If he doesn't omit it, well, then...

verbivore
Yes, it's sad that people are being killed for their profession of love for Jesus Christ. But what Jesus has promised is worth the hate that is focused on believers. One of my favorite passages is in Luke 23: 42-43

"Then he said, Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. He replied, Truly, I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

His forgiveness and love are amazing. I have put forth my faith in Jesus and will always, no matter what. Having been on four mission trips I have seen God's work and the what the message of Jesus can do. It's really amazing.

Dreadnaught
"Ha ha! Rich D says a Catholic here is "scripture-twisting"--!!!"

If you think that my disagreement with him is sectarian, you are sadly mistaken, but then again, you are mistaken about other things also. You already admitted to agreeing with me, so why bring denominationalism in where it has no place? I never leveled any criticism based on FC's (and your) denomination; in fact I showed where it said that he was wrong. I won't speculate on your motives.

Fabius
I wonder if you understand that you are quite the minority in this way of thinking? I still "feel" like a sinner. Not that I go around looking for ways to sin--but I have a lot of faults and I equate being "sinless" with being "perfect." I don't think we'll be perfect as God is perfect and holy as God is holy until we enter heaven. Jesus told the woman to go and sin no more. I think he was speaking of her particular sin of adultery. Every act of contrition that we say includes, "I will never sin again," yet I find myself saying that prayer at least twice a day! I know for a fact that there are times when my conscience is telling me one thing and I go and say something anyway. I think that's sin. Remember when Jesus said that he who was without sin could cast the stone at the woman caught in adultery? The stone went zooming past his head and hit the woman. When he turned he said, "Mother, I hate it when you do that." tee hee---one of my favorite jokes. Anyway. I still believe that the only human conceived without sin was Mary--the Holy Spirit could not use a sinful vessel in which to place His beloved, sinless, God/Man.

not to burst your bubble
But, just as an aside---earliest manuscripts do not include the story of the woman taken in adultery. Many biblical scholars contend that this story was added. Sorry.

Also, FC, I am not a sinner, in the sense that in reliance on Jesus sacrificial and atoning death, he stands as mediator between myself and a holy and just God. I stand as sinless. Not in myself, but because Jesus was sinless.

On my own, I am a sinner. But because of Jesus, "there is therefore now no condemnation."

pot calls kettle black


Ha ha! Rich D says a Catholic here is "scripture-twisting"--!!!

That's exactly what happened to the 30-odd thousand denominational groups who think they can supplant the Catholic faith by reading scripture to ignorant souls. They number not only Rich's sect, but various others of dubious Christian credentials, such as were:

David Koresh, Branch Davidians. (He interpreted scripture to name himself Christ.)

Rev Jim Jones, Bible minister in Guyanas Jonestown; Kool-Aid suicide preacher.

Oral Roberts, fleecing his followers by declaring Jesus demanded he raise several bazillion dollars, or would shortly have to die. He interpreted "The Word."

Twisting it a lot, but that's normal, isn't it, Rich?

FC - Words, words, words, and nothing of
consequence. You stand alone here on your heretical doctrine of sin. Even the popes are not on your side with you scripture twisting. I notice that you have ignored all of the others who disagree with you, and that you are still non-responsive to argument. That doesn't surprise me, either.

I suppose that it is your perfectness in freedom from sin that gives you the authority to cast stones. It must be a truly heavy burden for you to carry.

Eric
Check out Voice of the Martyrs (persecution.com) to read the stories and get involved in the lives of those being persecuted for their allegiance to Jesus Christ. And yes, you're right, it's happening now, daily.

gerson
don't forget those persecuted in the middle east. I have missionary friends in the mid-east who give me stories of the hatred against Christians, who are persecuted by governments and Muslims. The worst are the Muslims who convert to Christianity. Many are murdered, shot dead, burned dead, beaten, kidnapped, lose their houses, lose their children and their families.And no, I'm not hating on Islam, as some liberals would accuse, I'm just stating what is actually happening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeRsfc8_4eg&mode=related&sea rch=



duke? look to protect yourself.


Dear Rich D,

In your haste to gloat, you reduce this important point of Fabius's to a duke-out.

He's not so incorrect that another aspect won't bring him into agreement with me. I don't have to punch this fine Christian.

It's ridiculous sinners such as Rich D who need power applied. I've done it to you and you know it.

We pray always for the intercession of God's saints who live at Christ's side. Mainly the ever virgin mother of Jesus. Mary, our spiritual mother and Jesus QUEENLY mother;

Holy Mary, mother of God,
Pray for us SINNERS, now and at the hour of our death,

Amen.

Fabius understands this.

We all stand sinners until forgiven. Especially many who have rejected Jesus at His holy altar; fallen away Catholics.

Of course, Rich has yet to attend at that altar in faith. His teachers abandoned us long past. But all his ancestors before that were Catholics, and loyal to the Pope on earth.

We mean to the doctrines guarded and taught by popes; Shepherds of God's flock.

The spirit of truth
That and falsely claiming ownership (or denial)of the truth.

The spirit of truth
Christ said, our counsellor in his absence, (going on 2000 years now), is the spirit of truth, not the bible nor any other text nor a ghost.

The spirit of truth is no more a ghost than the spirit of goodwill or a team spirit is.

The goodness of anything is measured by one thing only, the truth.

Proof of anything proves that life exists in absolutes. Shades of grey only exist in the confusion of our minds.

The truth defines absolutes. Any ideology is always based on the theory that God (insert your favorite deity) knows all truths.

From this perspective without a claim to ownership of the truth, religion offends nobody. We have merely a spiritual and eternal comittment to it.

I can accept that, Jesus did. Why can't you?

As I said before, the only flaw with religion is our arrogant misinterpretation of it. That and falsely claiming ownership of the truth.

Fabius
I know we've spoken of this before and I even found a website to "kind of" support your statement of Christians as no longer being "sinners." However. And this is a big however. I think that it may be in the semantics. In theory, and in every homily that speaks of sin--I have been told that we are all still sinners. Venial sin is still sin and we are encouraged to confess these sins also to receive the sacramental grace of confession. A little more grace never hurt anyone. I come from a very old, conservative family. My maternal grandfather would be 123 years old if he were alive. My mom and dad taught us the very same Roman Catholicism (plus 12 years of Catholic schooling)that my grandfather and grandmother learned all those many years ago. Long before the 60's and the continual social decline of our country. I believe that they also believed they were sinners. I have totally embraced Jesus as my Lord and Savior--and, my friend, I'm a sinner. But God isn't finished with me yet!!!

Verbivore
We can let dreadnaught and FC duke it out on sinners - they obviously disagree, so one of them must be misinterpretating their church's teachings. It's not odd that FC won't take him on.

MellorSJ2 to SJ Doc
"We therefore show Rich D's comment to a contradiction in itself, a self-selecting No True Scotsman argument."

You therefore show only that we are fools for Christ (1 Cor 4:10), and that you are wise in the ways of the world, but fools otherwise in the Biblical sense (Ps 14:1).

Fabius Cunctator
"Thinking logically, how could St. Paul still be a sinner, while he was preaching, and convert people; he would have had no credibility.
Do you want your Priest, Pastor, clergymen, Sunday School teacher, or a Missionary to be a sinner? Of course, you would not."

Hey, if you already know the answer, then why do you ask? Your so-called "logical" thinking keeps getting you into trouble when it causes you to ignore plain scripture.

The first sentence is a first-order non sequitur - Paul didn't convert anyone, and neither do you nor I. The Holy Spirit converts when it changes our hearts of stone into hearts of flesh. Paul was a messenger. His credibility lay in the message that fell on receptive ears. He had no credibility among the deaf, who stoned and beat him.

Regarding your question, I have no choice in the matter and neither do you. God provides me what I need, not what I want. Don't forget, the ultimate authority is the Word itself, both in the flesh and written. Would you refuse field goal coaching from NBA basketball player Nene Hilario because he misses 39% of his shots? He is the leader. If you can't get a piano lesson from Beethoven, will Alfred Brendel do?



What About the Faithful?
Mr. Gerson is correct that there are Christians who are guilty of sin. But in the context of what he writes, let's remember to be balanced. For there have been innumerable Christians who have stood against evil throughout history (be it the Abolition Movement in 19th century America or the anti-Hitler movement in Nazi Germany). To make it appear that such examples of Christian sacrifice are "rare...exceptions" seems rather biased and overlooks the sacrifices for others that have been made by many, many Christians.

Nevertheless, Christians cannot justify their complacency toward evil in our midst - like the modern day genocide going on in places like Darfur and in wombs all around the world!

And for those who believe that Christians no longer sin, you are gravely mistaken. When Luther taught "simul justus et peccato(r)" ("simultaneously just{saint} and sinner") he was merely exhorting Biblical doctrine. READ ROMANS 7. And by the way, in Romans 7, St. Paul is not speaking about himself prior to his conversion. That boat won't float theologically or exegetically.

Dreadnaught, your theology is seriously
lacking.

First, there is no need to distort screen names for the fun of it. That is childish behaviour.

Second, Verbivore's post is not hollow, but correct. You need to look up the word propitiation and figure out what Jesus substituted himself for.

Third, you have an incorrect and heretical concept of God "that's making the Father wrong and barbarous. God is not a barbarian filled with fury at man. He's our Almighty Father; always willing and pleased to forgive. What does He demand of His chldren? Only our full obedience and love." And what would a God of perfect justice do to those who are disobedient? God is more than love. There is no mercy without forst justice.

Fourth, Jesus was forsaken and abandoned on the cross. He said so! "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree')" (Gal. 3:13) "Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows. . . He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. . . the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. . . it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin" (Is. 53:6-8, 10). Does that sound like a picnic to you?

Verbivore
Yes, that daughter, Miss Words (but not Miss Quotes)! We are fine.

Fabius
I haven't missed any point. And unless you are willing to use your own words to explain what YOU believe, I will not discuss. Cut and paste from some encyclical is not discussion. It's cowardice.

Anirban
I have to wonder if English is your first language. Your writing is barely intelligible! Perhaps at the very least you might try inserting punctuation. Or proofreading.

At any rate. If you believe you live a good life, have offended no deity, and expect nothingness beyond the cold of the grave, let me wish you well with that hope.

How is it you hope to make "whole" people you only "imagine" to have wronged? Can a murderer make a person whole? Can he restore the family of his victim? Can Bernie Madoff, restore and repay the 50B he has stolen? Not in 10 lifetimes. How big or how small a "slight" are you, on your own, able to forgive and restore?

Does God grade on a curve?

dreadnought
Instead of asking forgiveness of god, try asking it of those you've sinned against. I know pretending to humble yourself before an imaginary friend is easier than doing it with a real person, but give it a shot, you might be surprised.

Verbivore
How will you "save yourself?" Or perhaps you don't believe in sin or heaven? Do you hope you will simply cease to exist? If you expect heaven, on what basis do you "expect" it?

------------------------------------------------

Save yourself from what? The imaginary sins I might have committed.
I repeat, the best thing you can do to repent your sins is to make whole the people you have wronged. Only they can forgive you if they wish.

My story is right here right now. Not in your heaven. People are in charge of their life and make it like hell or heaven, as they wish.

Jesus laid down His life


We don't look upon the sacrifice of God's holy Son as suffering of His Father's wrath; that's making the Father wrong and barbarous. God is not a barbarian filled with fury at man. He's our Almighty Father; always willing and pleased to forgive. What does He demand of His chldren? Only our full obedience and love.

That is what Jesus offered for our salvation on the cross; total unquestioning obedience to God the Father; making up for the disobedience of Adam & Eve, our first parents.

WE had no possible way to make up for it. Our worst suffering isn't commensurate, as mere creatures, to the offense of that disobedience. But Jesus who is God the Son, obeyed, and His Almighty Father was pleased. Jesus merited on the cross all the grace needed to save those who love Him.

Wrath isn't the definition for God having demanded obedience; and His Son didn't deserve wrath anyway-- only glory. He died for me though He was not SIN to His Father, but satisfaction for my sins.

Verbivore
Be very careful of what you call "lies" and "misinformation." Remember that the devil prowls about the earth like a lion looking to devour. St. Peter was the first Pope. ALL religions seceded from the religion that has come to be known as Catholicism. Catholics trace their roots directly to St. Peter. There would not even be a bible were it not for the Catholic monks. It is NOT the Catholic Church which has lied and misinformed people. The Catholic Church IS the one, holy, catholic, apostolic church.

"He suffered no WRATH for our sake"
I would humbly disagree, sir. While on that cross, for those 9 hours, Jesus was COMPLETELY alone, he became Sin, the Sin for every man, and woman who would ever live. As such, his Father could not look on him with any degree of acceptance. He had to turn his back on his, "only begotten Son", because he WAS SIN. Jesus traded his righteousness for our Sin. Those who believe on the Son, NOW HAVE THE VERY RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS!! The plan of salvation is truly divine, for NO man could have ever devised it! Jesus was completely alone, for those 9 hours, and that is why scripture describes those 9 hours, as "there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour". The entire earth was dark, all at one time, so great was God's scorn, for Sin. Which Jesus, was. Make no mistake, God's wrath and his government were completely satisfied at the Cross. For we were "saved from wrath through him", because he experienced all the wrath at Calvary. What a marvel!!

chief of sinners
took a look at the Tallman thread Rich. Wow, it's worse than I thought. Poor Fabius. This is one reason I'm not around as often (besides being too busy!), I learn so much about RC and I'm shocked and appalled. And then when talking to people like Fabius and Dread I get angry. Not at them, but at the lies and misinformation they are being fed. Lies on which they stake their very salvation.

Anyway, Fabius, why does your Apostle Paul, in 1 Timothy, claim to be the worst of sinners? "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst."
Not I WAS a sinner, but I AM a sinner. I'm sure your RC search engines have an answer for you to cut and paste.

Thinker-bell's Logic ?

Is it just me, or can ANYONE understand what Mellor Tinker-bell is saying about the choices Christians make as moral imperatives!

AND why would it matter to him, since he does not believe in God in the first place. Perhaps he will taken another stab at it when he returns from his Gay bar?

religion is stupid
Oh my God! You are cool. Religion is fool

The wrath of God is satisfied
I Thessalonians 5:9,10 "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him."

That's the whole point of the cross dreadnaught. Yes, Jesus loves us, but it was because of his love, and his willingness to take on himself God's anger. Read Romans. Sin exacts a price. And Jesus pays that price. How does his simply dying, bring you life?

SJ Doc writes
"MellorSJ2 flashes a logical fallacy"

Yes and no. I simply followed Rich D's claim to its logical conclusion.

As you pointed out, they (those on TH) profess to be xians, and that's not testable. We therefore show Rich D's comment to a contradiction in itself, a self-selecting No True Scotsman argument.

As you say, nothing can be inferred regarding those xians who do not post on TownHall.

Ahhhh, once again
pure truth cuts at the very heart of those who are in legion with the devil. Free speech, dear fellow townhallers, free speech....

Control yourself, Verbaflora

What a bombastic, pedantic HOLLOW post:

"No one can meet the standard and that is the whole point. Jesus met the standard. Jesus took our condemnation. He stands between me and a holy God. The wrath of God, poured out on JESUS…and I, you, we, can all benefit. You just have to look at the Cross."

STOP--

Jesus laid down His life for us; He suffered no WRATH for our sake. The Father loves Jesus. You've taken a self-ordained tent revival minister too literally. Now you yourself are full of it.

What you loosely call a "standard" is baloney. Jesus is GOD; dying He destroyed our own death; rising He restored us to life everlasting. Not by a standard, by filial, loving obedience to His Almighty Father.

Where is your FAITH? Not with the apostles, evidently.

William
Your comment was completely inane and had no meaning whatsoever. Pure dribble. Can't come up with anything intelligent to say?

hey Rich!
Which daughter? The one with the words? She's great. Still giving me "quotes" and such. How's by you?

I saw your post earlier today, "Just because a man is in the White House it doesn't make him a president," in response to the mouse and the cookie jar thing. touche. Funny.

But I didn't see the Tallman thread, should I go take a look? Do I dare?

A Religious Animal
Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion - several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven. ~Mark Twain

Bigot from Fla, William:

No Christian goes a single day without making an account of his own sins. We don't bury our sins over at the psychiatrist's; as atheists are wont to do. We ask God's forgiveness. We show concern about what displeases Him. Because He's our Almighty Father. NOT, as you would presume, because we fear eternal punishment. We love God.

What makes idiots like you presume to even know right from wrong? You haven't any spiritual barometer. But you'll come here to scoff at the ones who care about what outcome will result of their lives. You, Sir, live by the rules of worms on a puddle of smelly shiit: Eat, relax, lay an egg and eat again, until you come to the end. The wonder of it is that you think you're a human being. Yet I, just an ordinary Christian, pray for your immortal soul.

Mellor - On the false alternative
--
MellorSJ2 flashes a logical fallacy:

"Either xians are a truly nasty bigoted self-righteous bunch who wish ill on others as a matter of course.

"Or, the posters on TH who post such nasty bigoted etc stuff are not xians."



Nope. The fact that almost all of the religious dickweeds posting on Townhall.com profess a specious allegiance to Christianity says nothing absolute about all Christians, any more than their bilge and blatherskite attests to their (nominal and putative) status as Christians.

Because allegiance to any ghostly form of wishful idiocy cannot be objectively demonstrated (nor even reliably defined, when you get right down to it), it's arguable that not even the Pope himself - ruling ex cathedra on the subject as a matter of faith - really has an infallible ability to define what bigotries and blatant bastardlinesses are or are not compatible with Christianity.

It's a purposeless argument, of less value than a brisk debate over how best to fiddle with one's dandruff.




=====
"Kill them all; for the Lord knoweth them that are His."

-- Arnaud Amalric (Papal legate at the sack of Beziers, 1209)

Verbivore
Did you see my post and/or read the Tallman thread? You won't get anywhere because facts aren't welcome.

How is your daughter?

sinful hearts
Hey Fabius, just read one of your posts and starting to get a clearer picture on how you claim to have no sin. Does the catholic church teach that? I suppose Jesus might have a different take. Let’s start with IJohn 1:8, “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” You believe the Bible, don’t you Fabius?

Then there are the words of Jesus. You know, the famous sermon where he took the LAW and turned it on its ear? While the Pharisees patted themselves on the back for keeping the letter of the Law, Jesus demonstrated that it is the heart that deceives and the heart that sins. He said things like, “You have heard that it was said,'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
Or, 'You shall not murder…But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother…will be liable to judgment;...and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.” Murderous thoughts, a little road rage here, a little TH condemnation there. We’re all guilty. Guilty as sin.

There’s more, lots more, but you get the idea. Jesus concludes with “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Wow. That’s the standard. And it’s a tough standard. Do you fulfill that standard? If not, then how do you stand uncondemned?

No one can meet the standard and that is the whole point. Jesus met the standard. Jesus took our condemnation. He stands between me and a holy God. The wrath of God, poured out on JESUS…and I, you, we, can all benefit. You just have to look at the Cross.

Truetolife said....
"Some people just do not understand that it is our duty, as Christians, to admonish the sinner. That does not mean we are bigots or self righteous or any number of nasty things."

No, it just means that you are blind to your own sin and too lazy to deal with it so you pretend to be "forgiven" and focus on everyone else's sin. I'm pretty sure Jesus specifically addressed this and I'm a heathen. Do you people even read your own book?

Anirban
I really don't even know what you said.
When I ask, "What will you do with your sin?", I'm not talking about a "faceless" pastor (that would be scary!)

How will you "save yourself?" Or perhaps you don't believe in sin or heaven? Do you hope you will simply cease to exist? If you expect heaven, on what basis do you "expect" it?

Some people
just do not understand that it is our duty, as Christians, to admonish the sinner. That does not mean we are bigots or self righteous or any number of nasty things. It simply means we defend the faith and we are not doormats.

Fabius
So, you are saying you don't sin, have never sinned, and will never sin?

Collins, Specter & Snowe just SOLD OUT..

BREAKING NEWS:

Senators Collins, Specter & Snowe just sold the United States out. Calling them "RINOs" is an insult to RINOs.


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D966EEQ80&show_arti cle=1

WASHINGTON (AP) - With job losses soaring nationwide, Senate Democrats reached agreement with KEY REPUBLICANS Friday night on an economic stimulus measure at the heart of President Barack Obama's plan for combatting the worst recession in decades. "The American people want us to work together. They don't want to see us dividing along partisan lines on the most serious crisis confronting our country," said SEN. SUSAN COLLINS of Maine, one of two GOP senators who signaled support for the bill.

Officials put the cost of the measure at $780 billion in tax cuts and new spending combined. No details were immediately available, and there appeared to be some confusion even among senators about the price tag as floor debate continued late into the night.

The agreement capped a tense day of backroom negotiations in which Senate Majority Leader HARRY REID, joined by White House chief of staff RAHM EMANUEL, sought to attract the support of enough Republicans to give the measure the needed 60-vote majority.

In addition to COLLINS, Sen. ARLEN SPECTER, R-Pa., said he would vote for the bill. Sen. OLYMPIA SNOWE, R-Maine, remained uncommitted." (cap emphasis mine)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Thanks to these three SELL-OUTS (Collins, Specter and Snowe), a few years from now, our country will be forced to default on its debt obligations.

That’ll be after hyper-inflation has destroyed the value of our currency.

These 3 Traitors have enabled the Leftocrats to BORROW nearly a TRILLION DOLLARS, and flush it down the toilet on wasteful pet pork projects.

A trillion dollars.

That’s 1,000,000,000,000.00

If any of these three American Traitors (Senators Collins, Specter and Snowe) happen to be YOUR Senator, please, FIRE THEM.

Anirban in NY
You have a religion and practice it, a faith belief and apparently don't even know it. Your religion is faith belief in doubt or dismissal, rejection. To reject or dismiss a thing, anything you must first believe it exists.

Just like any other living person you cannot and do not know. So you believe based on faith that "Christianity like any religion sucks big time." Your religion, included in your broad, sweeping statement, is among those that "sucks big time."

That is the way you want it apparently. That is how you label it. So enjoy it and hope you are right. That is all you can do - hope, take a chance with your life that you are right.

Verbivore
How do you plan on being "responsible" for your own sin? How do you plan on paying for them and making things right? Do you have a plan??

----------------------

When you sin there will be people at the receiving end of the stick as a consequence of your action. Your responsibility lies with the people you have harmed your way. If I were a sinner and transgressor, get some insight and like to repent, I would do it at those people in harms way, may be I will go to the end of the world to fix that. It is an abomination that everything will change by confessing to a faceless pastor and someone else will take over the mess you’ve made

Christianity like any religion sucks big time.

Two possible conclusions, Rich D
"We are known by our works, and it is easier to tell who isn't by works than who is."

Judging by the "works" of some folk here on TH who claim to be xians, we can draw two possible conclusions.

Either xians are a truly nasty bigoted self-righteous bunch who wish ill on others as a matter of course.

Or, the posters on TH who post such nasty bigoted etc stuff are not xians.

For Maine Terry @ 14:25
See my 08:43 post.

Fruit of Obama's Faith

Obama believes when a woman contracts for a dead baby - they deserve a dead baby. This is what Barack Obama fights for and defends.

Obama opposes a bill that defines as a “person” a fully born baby who survives an abortion.

Obama votes “present” on legislation that would require doctors to give medical attention to babies who survive abortions. Obama argues that defining “…a pre-viable fetus" that survived an abortion as a "person" or "child would essentially bar abortions, because the Equal Protection Clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an anti-abortion statute."

--------------------
By CHRISTINE ARMARIO
Associated Press Writer

"Eighteen and pregnant, Sycloria Williams went to an abortion clinic outside Miami and paid $1,200 for Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique to terminate her 23-week pregnancy.

Three days later, she sat in a reclining chair, medicated to dilate her cervix and otherwise get her ready for the procedure.

Only Renelique didn't arrive in time. According to Williams and the Florida Department of Health, she went into labor and delivered a live baby girl.

What Williams and the Health Department say happened next has shocked people on both sides of the abortion debate: One of the clinic's owners, who has no medical license, cut the infant's umbilical cord. Williams says the woman placed the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and threw it out."

Back on subject
Just so you all know, the "facts" Michael Gerson sites in his article are not facts. They are mostly wrong. SSPX, the 4 Bishops including Willliamson, may receive the sacraments of the Catholic Church, but they are suspended from celebrating themselves. They have no authority at all. They may not even celebrate Mass (the priests and bishops). Bishop Williamson has been ordered to recant the statements he made on Swedish tv and recant all statements of holocaust denial and anti-semitism with no equivocation. Please get this right. Also, please quit the Catholic bashing. It's tiresome. Anneg in NC

We Christians know who we are.
We are known by our works, and it is easier to tell who isn't by works than who is.

dear indie lou
I can't agree with all you say, but I know you're trying to be truthful.

"Also, Aurora
It was the Catholics who amassed and codified the liturgies, creeds, and church structure that you so adamantly believe in today."

This would be so, Lou; if God weren't our loving Almighty Father. It's always HE, acting through the Church and her faithful, who reveals His divine Wisdom and His holy WILL.

No truth is ever known without His action in the hearts of men; men of good will.

I might add this is the main problem about Islam. Nothing of the tenets or "revelations" brought by the false prophet Muhammad has it's source in God's divine Wisdom or His Will for us. That love for Allah, and some truths in Islam come from the older faith of Abraham, from whom they descend as semites.

Muhammad, furthermore was not a man of good will.

God has revealed His truth through prophets of the Old Testament and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten HOLY SON. MEN received it from Jesus, they didn't concoct or discover it alone. The Church gives testimony to HIS infallible veracity and His infinite perfection as God's Son.

Donjindra
To the extent that *anyone* can call himself a Christian you are right. After all, there are plenty of folks who say they're Christian and think it involves nothing more than 'being good' in a personal/social/civil sense, or at least better than the guy down the street. But since Hindus, Buddhists and pagans can also be 'good' in the personal/social/civil sense, this is where the line must be drawn and the difference pointed out, and in the interest of truth ought be done so rather sharply.

That said, being Christian is something I know I am truly-again, not because of anything I've ever done, or worse, a decision I've made, but firstly and always because Christ Himself has made me so. I am no longer a sinner in God's eyes-though in this life because of the limitations of the flesh I still sin much and daily, as Martin Luther says.

Not sure what you define as Christian (as contrasted with the biblical definition rather than thr social), for I surely intend no ill will toward you or anyone, but neither will I be, as far as possible, a sap for moral and/or theological foolishness. That means I reject absolutely the claim that not even we Christians can ever know with certainty that we are indeed Christian. I guess the best way to sum up is that being Christian means we are always aware of our faults and shortcomings, but don't go through life being down on ourselves because, again, we are forgiven and free through Christ and thankful to be so. That's where real joy is!

Verbivore
For a lengthier discussion on Christians and sin between me and FC, see the Tallman post starting with "A reminder..." beginning at post #171. I even quoted RC websites that disagree with him.

He brings this false doctrine up on many threads. His way of debating is less than fair. He is the first and only Christian on TH of any stripe that I am aware of who argues this. I even offered to hear from his priest or other church authority on this, but the offer wasn't taken.

Also, Aurora
It was the Catholics who amassed and codified the liturgies, creeds, and church structure that you so adamantly beleive in today.

Dread is mostly right, Aurora
During the first wave of the black plague., when Christians were burning Jews alive as punishment for causing it, it was a Pope (I forget which one) who made it possible for Spanish Jews to escape and made new land availble to them in Eastern Europe. He also preached against martyring the Jews, saying they did not cause the plague.

But hey, what else was there to do after church?

William
" If the bible makes someone think they can be free of sin, then anything they do is logically not a sin"

How true. One immediately thinks of the Crusades, the English Civil War, the persecutions in all manner of forms of Jews, outsiders, gays, women (witches?) etc.

However, this morning I was listening to the father of of a young soldier who was sent to Iraq. He told his father he was very depressed and felt as if he was having a meltdown. The commanding officers gave him a ten minute test, after which they said he was probably acting, and sent him to a pastor. This was his last chance. The pastor said that he was "infected by Satan" and not to pay attention to him. He was told that if they could prove his treachery, they would send him to prison. Two days later he e-mailed his father, put a gun in his mouth and blew his brains out.

Was the pastor not really a Christian?

If there's a God, I think he is in the details, and he's definitely not always, or not even frequently, loving.

#10 from Fabius' list
Fabius said to aurorawatchmaker "If the Church had been dishonorable or acted contrary to the service of God and man, we wouldn't see her now over 2 billion faithful."

With that said, please answer the second half of your own question #10. Obviously Mohammed and "Mohammedans" are not acting dishonorably to god. I hardly think you think so.

Oh please....
Don't quite agree with the vast extrapolations here. The Nazi's secularized Germany, persecuted Catholics, as did Stalin. Where's the condemnation of the atheists, the muslims and the Jews for being complacent?

It's always a Christians fault, even though it was largely the countries based on christian values who have worked against the atrocities of the ages.

aurorawatcher's mistaken

This:

"There were a lot of them in the history of the church -- often the brothers of the nobility who had been given the church by their fathers, rather than by any spiritual desire to serve God."

This is not the fact at all.

There were families in Italy which gave bishops and some Popes to the Church. A small number were shameful, but for the most part, they were all spiritual and faithful to God. You have no proof otherwise. Out of 260 plus bishops who ascended to the papal throne, easily 200 were saintly men who gave glory to God as His servants. Only some few lived evil lives, and practically all others entered the clergy with EVERY INTENTION of serving faithfully. God sent them each their holy vocation.

"Thus, the Roman Catholic Church has, not surprisingly, acted in non-Christian ways in the past."

Absolutely false. We know Christ's promises are always kept to His Church. If the Church had been dishonorable or acted contrary to the service of God and man, we wouldn't see her now over 2 billion faithful. Yes; men are sinners. But the Church cannot sin, she is the Mystical Body of Christ and His BRIDE.

Without the Church to serve as God's house on earth --we would have no Holy Bible. No Holy Gospel would have ever been preached to the nations. She is "Pillar and ground of the truth." See 1 Tim 3 :15

"What do we expect from secular men forced to fill bishops robes?"

We expect those who dispute her in this life to tell the truth; not calumnies. Secular men were NEVER forced to "fill" robes. What a crude & false accusation!

Mike
"I also do not attribute their behavior to the Christian faith as Gerson does."

Neither do I, neither the good nor the bad. The real scandal of religion is that it conforms to people, not the other way around as is so often claimed.

Government agents in bishops robes
There were a lot of them in the history of the church -- often the brothers of the nobility who had been given the church by their fathers, rather than by any spiritual desire to serve God. Thus, the Roman Catholic Church has, not surprisingly, acted in non-Christian ways in the past. What do we expect from secular men forced to fill bishops robes?

We could come up with a lot of explanations for Protestant churchmen who acts as the ten Booms' pastor did. Fear, deceit, hypocrisy. There is really no excuse for it, even if we can offer explanations. The real Christians were people like the ten Booms, who risked their lives to save strangers just because God had commanded it. I hope if I'm ever in a situation like that, I will act with the God-given courage that Corrie and her family did. There's really no excuse if I don't.

Donjindra missed my point
Donjindra

You missed the point, it being that the headline reads "The Real Scandal of Religion" while Gerson only pillories Christianity. SO yes, if Gerson had held "religion" accountable and not just Christianity it would have made a difference to me. If he had title the piece "The Real Scandal of Christianity" it would have been more accurate.

I am not sure what you think I was rationalizing. Perhaps I was not clear enough in my disgust at the actions of those cited by Gerson. I do not condone their actions but I also do not attribute their behavior to the Christian faith as Gerson does. Because someone who is identified as Christian does something horrendous does that make Chritianity terrible? Because some Mafia Gansters have committed murder does that make all Italians criminal?

Ooops...

Make That:

“We (don't) have to successful, we just have to be faithful”

Mother Teresa

Watch Out Fab

Mellor-”Tinker bell” is stalking you everywhere you go on the TH Treads.

I think he/she wants to corrupt you, so that he/she can sell the TH world his brand of homosexual Atheism and Activism?

With respect to the subject at hand:

“We not have to successful, we just have to be faithful”...Mother Teresa

To conclude, Fabius:
"Anyone(Christian or not) who says that "God loves sinners" is a liar and one who has a sin or sins that he does not want to give up. That "Christian" must repent and live according to the will of Christ in order to receive God's love.
Abortion users, abortionists, liars, addicts to: gambling, sex, pornography; fornicators, homosexual practitioners, users of contraception, thieves, murderers, deceivers, embezzlers, seers, sorcerers, witches, and idolaters are all condemned as sinners and will not enter Heaven."

In fact, the Church teaches us that yes; even they who sin the MOST seriously, are loved by God. He's a Father to every living man,

If they do not reject evil before dying here, they'll forfeit the salvation which God willed for them. If they confess and repent of all the sins of their lives, then they're forgiven through Jesus Christ. They will not be damned. That's the proper teaching of the apostles and the Church.

Wow!!!
A guy who is afraid of sorcerers and who called me a cockroach thinks he's free of sin...

This would be one of those things that I suggested that you christians could try to learn from rather than just ignore by saying Fabius is a crackpot and not really a christian. If the bible makes someone think they can be free of sin, then anything they do is logically not a sin... it's obvious what kind of abuses this can lead to (see the oringial article for example, it's was probably not a "sin" to kill Tutsi in the fevered minds of the Hutu).

Over and out!

Sinners/Fabius
You might have been a "were" sinner, the past might be cleared, but it's not a ticket to the future and let me know how living a perfect life is like. You sin, even in your thoughts...remember the part about "lusting" being a sin.

I want for Fabius to know


Definitively,

There is NO one in the world who can't sin, not since Jesus and later His holy mother went up to heaven. We all sin. We don't all repent.

Even Paul was straightforward about his own soul, saying-- "lest thinking I stand, I might fall."

There is one who cannot sin after he's baptized. That is a child not yet at the age of reason. His actions don't offend God. If he should die, his soul will be received in heaven in that moment. But even saints have their free will and reason under which sins must be washed away in true repentance and penance. Even the Pope must confess when he is guilty of an injustice or other willful misconduct.

Sorcerers???????
note to self; try to remember Fabius is not representitive of all Cathlics...

Fabius said...
"A true Christian does not sin, and he cannot sin"

There cannot be any true christians then.

Christians cannot sin?
Really? Then whatever do you catholics have confession for?

Fabius Cunctator
I'm thinking that Christianity does succeed at one thing very well. It turns out many people who like calling others cockroaches, or whatever else appeals to their base instincts.

Dear Fabius

Take my advice & don't waste any replies on Mellworse, he'll only enjoy baiting you here the rest of the day.

I appreciate your hopes of vindicating me. Also what for? We're boring to those who hate us, that's cause for rejoicing.

I often feel a little bored by the knee-jerk reaction of the Jewish lobby in our everyday news. They always feel temblors underneath them when some Bozo fails to go without his meals after questioning the Holocaust. Why, that's ghastly! To American Jews, that calls for more than a Lenten period of self-chastizement. They even call for the Pope to raise bloody hell about it.

My love for Jews everywhere is unaffectd. They can count on me to believe in the Shoah, and in Chanukka, etc., faithfully. I let it go when they demand we alter the gospel of Saint John, so what? We won't do it. I figure we'll all celebrate together one day at Our Lord's banquet in heaven. It's HE, Jesus Himself, who will wipe every tear away, and help them to forget the past.

Fabius Cunctator -- dilemma
I see no dilemmas there, certainly nothing that is answered with any degree of satisfaction by Christianity.

AliveInHim
You say, “Christians' faith is not and never can be perfectly evident in this life.”

IOW, you still agree with me. A “real” Christian is an elusive thing. It cannot be judged in this lifetime by mere mortals. It’s impossible to apply that attribute to other people with any degree of certainty. So it’s pointless to try to decipher “real” Christians from imposters. There’s nothing on the outside that would give us a clue. You claim to know you are one. But it’s stupid for me to accept your word for it since all the “fake” Christians say the same thing. And there is no reason for me to find a “real” Christian anyway, just like there’s no reason for me to find a “real” conservative or a “real” Republican. The only thing that matters to me is how people behave who call themselves Christians. Those who insist on attaching labels to themselves end up defining the labels whether we like it or not.

I’m glad you’ve something that gives you hope and keeps you going. I’ve never had a problem in this area.


What good does it do?
Williamson is obviously a crack-pot. What good will it do for him to recant? He obviously would not mean it. Get him out of the Church altogether. Let him repent on his own not by the demand of the Church. Surely he should never lead again.

Oh what the heck...
1) Newton’s Law of Motion
2) You are right, I can’t, and neither can you, but the evidence seems to point to a quantum fluctuation.
3) ???
4) Single celled organisms and monkeys!!!!
5) dust…
6) 99.99% of statistics that say 99.99% are pulled out of thin air!
7) dust….
8) combination of hucksterism, wishful thinking and the placebo effect
9) see above
10) People need meaning in their lives and other people use that need to get donations and power.
11) The people from #10 have nothing better to do.
12) The people from #11 get to pushy and get killed.
13) Adaptation of greek myth, see Athena and Leda
14) Anything that vague can be made to fit just about anything else.
15) It’s more like 1684 and what can I say, but that the Catholic bishops were in the right place at the right time when Rome fell.

The spirit of truth
In the spirit of truth, can you say that you know as the truth that God or Christ ever really existed?

If you claim your belief is truth without proof, then it follows that anyone else can as well.

Without proof of truth evil beliefs are equal to good ones.

Why would it be important to you that your belief be true, unless your belief was measured by the truth.

Christ knew that truth supercedes belief.

Why doesn't everyone?

Oh Fab!
You are always _so_ good for a chuckle: "Re: Verbivore: His name should be verbiBore," followed, of course, by the usual cut-and-paste pronouncements.

I especially like "Christians Are Not Sinners," which would fly in the face of others' claims on the matter.

And the best till last: "15) The continuous existence of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, founded by Jesus Christ, for 1,976 years, fulfilling Jesus’ prediction that His Church would last until the end of time"

End of time, eh? Nope. I'm still here.

Get some help, Fab. We'd all be grateful.


Fabius
Saying "goddidit" doesn't count as an explanation either.

The real scandal of religion
The question we must all ask ourselves is how something can be so flawed that has been responsible for so much good and has lasted for thousands of years?

Our flaws result from our misinterpretation of truth in texts or as spoken.

One thing we should all remember is that Christ said our counsellor for all time, in his absence, is the spirit of truth.

He didn't say it was the bible or any other religious text or even a Christian ghost.

The spirit of truth is a team spirit for all humanity.

Only when we value truth above all else will we share peace.

So use the truth to expose lies, and accept it when yours are exposed.

Otherwise, there can be no real hope for peace.


good column
Gerson gives a good explanation as to why tolerance of anti-semitism is a problem for the church.

The comment section is a bit more embarassing. It takes this fairly benign point and portrays it as some kind of anti-religious bigotry, something that is particularly funny if one is familiar with Gerson's writing. But it does give a sense of how seriously to take the charge that people are anti-religious bigots in comments sections at Townhall.

no Dread.
don't know about Jesse, but I know about you! And I know you are an insufferable bore.

anirban
How do you plan on being "responsible" for your own sin? How do you plan on paying for them and making things right? Do you have a plan??

SINS
to pay for our sins and subsequent Resurrection-that gives us hope and keeps us going
--------------------------------------------

The assertion that your sins could be taken away by some vicarious redemption is the immoral thing. It makes you evade your responsibilities. How could you get hope from that?

question
How could an article entitled 'The Real Scandal of Religion' not include Islam?

Pappy Michael, etc.
The religious SHOULD be held to a different - higher - standard.

That having been said - there are countless instances where they have NOT met this standard, and I would hope that there are countless instances where they HAVE met the standard. The instances where the standard is NOT met naturally gets a lot more ink because 'if it bleeds it leads', and the press these days LOVES clerical scandal. The story of some poor cleric laboring his life away tending to souls in some forgotten little town is never heard here on earth, but God knows.

FYI - I am a practicing Catholic

Fr. Maximilian Kolbe

From a heathen perspective
all of the churches and religions look alike. Most have nice doctrines that mandate "treat your neighbor as yourself" which the followers proceed to elaborate on until anyone they want to control or abuse or exploit is labeled as "not neighbor."

The actual behavior of the members appears to have more to do with the behavior modeled by their parents and their community than with whatever their scriptures say. For example, in Germany after the war, Christians behaved in anti-Semitic ways, or did not feel obliged to speak out against anti-Semitism because it was a cultural perspective ingrained since the Middle Ages.

It is irrational to give credit to religion for people's good behavior and then to say it bears no responsibility for bad behavior. The converse is true. Human nature has good and bad features--therefore the religions it produced has good and bad features. Color me not surprised.