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Friday, September 21, 2007
Michael Gerson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Seeds of Anti-Semitism
by Michael Gerson
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Last year, Stephen Walt of Harvard and John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago published a paper accusing the "Israel Lobby" of having "unmatched power" and managing to "manipulate the American political system" into actions that undermine U.S. interests.

Supporters praised these scholars for "prying the lid off a debate that has been bottled up for decades" -- perhaps since Charles Lindbergh let down his side of the argument in the 1940s. Another reviewer commends them for "saying the unsayable." In this case, the unsayable was punished with a book advance of three-quarters of a million dollars and turned into 350 pages called "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy."

Accusations of disproportionate Jewish influence are as old as the pharaohs. The novelty here is the endorsement of respected, mainstream academics -- though both characterizations are increasingly disputed. Scholars, not columnists, will make those determinations. But I do have firsthand knowledge concerning two of Walt and Mearsheimer's accusations.

First, they have argued that the "Israeli government and pro-Israel groups" have shaped President Bush's "grand scheme for reordering the Middle East."

In fact, Israeli officials have been consistently skeptical about the main policy innovation of the Bush era: the democracy agenda. One senior Bush administration official recently told me, "The Israelis are generally convinced that Arab cultures are particularly resistant to democracy; that democracy is likely to lead to victories by the Muslim Brotherhood."

A friend recalls visiting a prominent Israeli general in 2003 and making the case for democracy promotion. "What is the alternative?" the American asked. "Propping up the next generation of Mubaraks, Assads and the House of Saud for the next 25 years?" The general responded: "Why not?"

President Bush's emphasis on democracy has been driven not by outside pressure but by a strategic insight. He is convinced that the status quo of tyranny, stagnation and extremism in the Middle East is not sustainable -- that the rage and ideologies it produces will cause increasing carnage in the world. The eventual solution to this problem, in his view, is the proliferation of hopeful, representative societies in the Middle East.

This argument is debatable. But it is at least as likely as Walt and Mearsheimer's naive belief that "the U.S. has a terrorism problem in good part because it is so closely allied with Israel" -- the equivalent of arguing that Britain had a Nazi problem in the 1930s because it was so closely allied with Czechoslovakia.

Second, these scholars contend that the influence within the Bush administration of the Israel lobby has been magnified by its "junior partner," the Christian Zionists. In theological terms, they are talking about premillennial dispensationalists -- people who believe that the success of the state of Israel is a welcome sign of the end times.

The views of dispensationalists are broadly disputed by serious, conservative Protestant scholars. I don't share those views. I can't imagine that the president or the secretary of state shares them -- but I would not know for sure because I never once heard such views advocated or mentioned in five years of policy discussions I participated in at the White House.

There is a temptation in some academic circles to search for that mysterious key that will unlock our whole understanding of American foreign policy. George Bush is captive to the Israelis, or maybe Dick Cheney is captive to the Saudi Arabians. The real problem is the Israeli lobby on the grassy knoll, or dispensationalists covering up the Da Vinci code.

But all this is a conspiracy against the obvious. Perhaps many Americans actually prefer Israel's flawed democracy to the aging autocrats and corrupt monarchies of the region. Perhaps they root for a reliable ally that is surrounded by nations still committed to its destruction. Perhaps many Americans recall that the Jews, just six decades ago, lost one-third of their number to genocide and believe that this persecuted people deserves a secure home and sanctuary. Perhaps Americans understand that anti-Semitism was the greatest source of evil in the 20th century and is not dead in this one.

Walt and Mearsheimer are careful to say they are not anti-Semitic or conspiracy-minded. But their main inference -- that Israel, the Israel lobby and Jewish neoconservatives called the shots for Bush, Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Stephen Hadley, Colin Powell and Donald Rumsfeld -- is not only rubbish, it is dangerous rubbish. As "mainstream" scholars, Walt and Mearsheimer cannot avoid the historical pedigree of this kind of charge. Every generation has seen accusations that Jews have dual loyalties, promote war and secretly control political structures.

These academics may not follow their claims all the way to anti-Semitism. But this is the way it begins. This is the way it always begins.

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About The Author
Michael Gerson writes a twice-weekly column for The Post on issues that include politics, global health, development, religion and foreign policy. Michael Gerson is the author of the book "Heroic Conservatism" and a contributor to Newsweek magazine.
 
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warren Small
Waren Small makes a point when he states he dosen't remember"Foreign Aid policies of the 30's. I never figured he was in his seventies but having no reason to believe him to be a liar,I have to take his age as indicated, wait a minute. If he was not born in the thirities he would not be able to remember what transpired before he was born so his statement is true.And thus his no doubt education reflects a mind set in his education, ultra liberal . I am old enough to remember the "Jewish problem" and the ultimate solution and how it started .

Michael wrote:
“Every generation has seen accusations that Jews have dual loyalties, promote war and secretly control political structures.”

You know, it’s strange: I’ve spent 22 of my 70-odd years overseas, either in the armed forces or working for multi-nationals, and in all of the various countries the same exact “accusations” are ever-present among the population!

Amazing, don’t you think?

small
Breathtaking. You regularly display the most profound misunderstanding of world politics in your posts but you've outdone yourself. There is no way to argue with someone such as yourself who insists on such an irrational world view. Your analysis and reversal of facts makes you the best student of Michael Moore I've run across. Hint: That's not a compliment.

I know you'll probably post that I've not refuted a single argument of yours so I'll just do one to highlight how out-of-phase your basic premises are: Israel does not influence our foriegn policy. Our policy aligns with Israel because they are a free, democratic-style state with the interests of peace and freedom similar to ours and as such represent a valuable ally in a region of the world that can only be viewed as hostile to our goals of freedom and democracy. I know that you and your fellows in the tinfoil hat society can find all manner of "evidence" to support your illogic but you start from the wrong point facing in the wrong direction and you'll get to the wrong place every time.

I've always been fascinated
By the vast amount of influence that Jews supposedly have worldwide- according to Israel's detractors, that is.

Using Occam's Razor........


If the Jews really were as all-powerful as is claimed by the likes of Walt, Mearsheimer, et al., and have been so powerful for so long-

-Don't you think they could have prevented six million or so of their brethren from being exterminated by the Nazis?

Oh, right. That didn't really happen, did it?

At least, that's the "orthodoxy" amongst the latest crop of anti-semites.

Their idiocy is becoming as transparent as their bigotry.

As for Walt's and Mearsheimer's claims to "not being anti-semites", I believe them. I also believe that they've spent too many years in academia being brainwashed by the Politically Correct Crowd. Who are not merely open about their hatred of Israel- they're smug about it.

And before anyone says that "being anti-Israel is not being anti-semitic", that's as big an oxymoron as saying "I oppose the war, but I support the troops." (Another favorite cant of the P.C. Crowd.) One cannot "support the troops" without supporting their mission. And one cannot be "pro-semitic" without supporting the country where half of the remaining Jews on Earth live- by their own choice.

Walt, Mearsheimer, and their cronies need to take a long, hard look in a mirror. Realizing that they may not like what they see.


cheers

eon

Israel Lobby
This book evokes a lot of emotion and commentary. Hopefully Mr.Gerson and those providing comments have read the book cover-to-cover including footnotes prior to providing opinions. There is a lot of well documented information in the book which enables the reader to better understand the problems in The Middle East.

Bibi - Chiding of Israel
bibi writes: Saturday, September, 22, 2007 9:07 AM

*** "As far as W-M goes, give just one isreal policy the US has even chided the isreal's for." ***

It only took 2 minutes with Google to prove your statement wrong.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1505209,00.html

Paranoid Crazies.
It would have been better if the book had been entitled the "Jewish Lobby" or the "Neo-con Lobby" because most of the people directing American foreign policy are not Israeli's. It is a small band of radicals, some Jewish and some not, who believe in American Empire and that America should fight wars for Israel.

Michael writes, "In fact, Israeli officials have been consistently skeptical about the main policy innovation of the Bush era: the democracy agenda."

If Michael thinks that Bush cares about democracy or that was the reason for our invasion then he is truly delusional. The Iraq Attaq was an aggressive war motivated by the desire for Empire and to establish a permanent military presence in that region of the world. The "democracy" talk is just rhetoric for the American masses.

Michael writes, "Jewish neoconservatives called the shots for Bush, Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Stephen Hadley, Colin Powell and Donald Rumsfeld -- is not only rubbish, it is dangerous rubbish."

Why is it dangerous? The neo-con intellectuals have long desired wars in the Middle-East. Richard Perle, Douglas Feith and David Wurmser presented a plan to Netanyahu in 1996 called, "Clean Break". It called for the removal of Saddam and attacks against Syria.

Most members of the "Jewish Lobby" know that they are beyond criticism in respectable circles. This has allowed them to engage in whatever type of malfeasance they desire. The results have turned American into a nation of war criminals.

Anti-Israel and Anti-Semetism
are two tines of the same fork. They work together to feed the mania. I cannot recall a single instance of an anti-Israel, pro-Jewish policy.

Bibi, your post oozes hatred of both Israel and the Jewish people. Please give us a review of Ahmadinejad's appearance at Columbia University. I'm sure you will have a front row seat.

Just curious.
Is the neo-con conspiracy an extention of the worldwide Jewish conspiracy?

There are about six million ethnic Jews in the USA. The last time I looked, they are about 90% Democrat with a small Marxist contingent.

The majority of ethnic Jews are urbanites that reside in "blue" cities like New York and Los Angeles.

Since the PC crowd fears being labelled anti-Semitic, they fabricate a name (neo-con) to perpetuate the conspiracy myth. This ruse, of course, fools only the fools.

tanabear
if we are after imperialist notions in the ME why then did we allow the Iraqis to write their own constitution. Oh yeah because we aren't after territory in the Middle East.

just so you know
it is possible to be anti isreal and not be anti sematic it is just very hard. One such example is when isreal was in control of gaza strip they could have done infastrucure improvements to the area which to my knowlegde they never did thus makeing them look better and the palastinians ( proably not spelled right) look worse

Paper.
chr3354, "if we are after imperialist notions in the ME why then did we allow the Iraqis to write their own constitution."

The Iraqi Consitution, along with the government is a joke. It has no real authority. The only purpose was to provide an excuse to stay in Iraq. It is similar to the democracy rhetoric. It is to mask the true intentions of the neo-cons, which is Empire. If Iraqis do have their own constitution and government now, shouldn't we leave? Not if the goal is Empire.

fsudenny, "Is the neo-con conspiracy an extention of the worldwide Jewish conspiracy?"

What about the Arabic/Muslim conspiracy that is held by some many Bush Cultists? The goal of all the Arabs is a worldwide caliphate which is why we need some 500 military bases in some 150 countries. The only people promoting crazy conspiracy theories are the neo-cons.

foreign aid
I suppose Egypt, the third largest beneficiary of US foreign aid (behind Iraq and Israel), is part of the Zionist conspiracy as well. Of course, Egypt, under Sadat’s rule, did make peaceful overtures toward Israel. He even (gasp) signed an accord with them. Do the Zionist conspiracy theorists charge that 1) he got what he deserved, or 2) that he was a victim of the Zionist conspiracy? Or, somehow, both?

Regardless, same tune, different lyrics. Let’s not forget that the Jews were believed to have been the source of the Black Plague, and were singled out and punished for that, as well. You can count on it: if there’s a problem in the world (and when is there not?), the Jews are always the most convenient scapegoat – the global whipping boy.

The light of eternity
In her recent book, The New Anti-Semitism, feminist author Phyllis Chesler writes:

''My heart is broken by the cunning and purposeful silence of progressives and academics on the subject of anti-Semitism and terrorism. I write "silence" to be kind. What I'm really talking about is the betrayal of the Jews... by western intellectuals, some of whom are also Jews themselves. Perhaps like me they do not want to give up the larger world in order to retain their religious, racial, and cultural identities as Jews. After all, who willingly wants to wear the yellow star?''

...As Ms. Chesler so graphically expresses the dread we all feel:'''Tis a season of blood that's upon us. I knew it from the moment the two Israeli reservists were lynched in Ramallah in the fall of 2000... I wept because I understood that Jewish history was, once more, repeating itself. How foolish I'd been to think that we had finally escaped it.''

Dark days ahead, but the light of eternity comes quickly.

-Miguel


Israeli lobby and anti-semitism
Would it be true that Israel influenced our policy, I'd rejoice because we'd end this Muslim terror quickly. The truth is that we have a Chamberlain policy that is doomed to fail, causing much carnage. The solution to terror from Muslims is for the US to take and own ME oil, the supply line for terrorists. You quoted a Roman general (Prepare for war if you want peace); what do you think Rome would do faced with this ME Muslim problem? That is what we should do.

Just when I thought
the lunacy of the worldwide Jewish conspiracy had a gravestone, two new ones arise:

Bush Cultists: Is this that "Skull and Bones" thing?

Arab/Muslim conspiracy: I wonder what the Arab Christians know about this one? I thought the majority of the world's Muslims were not Arab? You know, places like Iran, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Afghanistan, etc.

Now, if you want to mention the Islamic conspiracy, this Bush cultist agrees. The 1400+ years of Islamic Imperialism tends to indicate it may be real. In this instance, it is less what we believe and more what they believe. I think there is plenty of hard evidence to indicate what they not only believe, but what they act on as well.

what is overlooked
What is overlooked is the manipulations of the oil rich tycoons giving academic chairs to universities, starting departments, and buying off professors, academics and media and political types so that they whistle the tune of Saudi Arabia i.e. antisemitism.
They are seeding anti-Semitism in the US just as they do in the madrassahs around the world. I can see the difference on Fox News reporting now that a Saudi Prince bought a hefty chunk of Fox.




and
And what Bush got wrong is thinking that people would vote for nice middle of the road people when given the vote. Not much thinking went into for whom an angry Muslim population would vote which is why the US is still pushing for Israel to create another terrorist state on the West Bank.


Surrender of the Middle East
Turning our backs on Iraq gives the Iranians a better shot at the Jewish state. They can then position on Iraq boarders and supply Syria with rockets and use their seaports to surround Israel. Then , of course, they will try to kill all of them. Israel will fight back. Iran and Syria will be incinerated as expected. Isreal will suffer wildly from an all out attack.
The American Army will , of course , have returned home to take up the most imporatnt use of our armed forces; the debate over " don't ask don't tell" led by Hillary Clinton. Ships show up off the east coast from Iran, they are invited into the discussion. They think Homosexuals should be executed, their opinion is held in great awe, ROTC is removed from the campus for discrimination of homosexuals...the beat goes on.

Proliferation representative Societies?
"President Bush's emphasis on democracy has been driven not by outside pressure but by a **STRATEGIC INSIGHT**." ARE YOU KIDDING?

"He (Bush) is convinced that the status quo of tyranny, stagnation and extremism in the Middle East is not sustainable -- that the rage and ideologies it produces will cause increasing carnage in the world. The eventual solution to this problem, in his view, is the **PROLIFERATION OF HOPEFUL, REPRESENTATIVE SOCIETIES** in the Middle East."


WOW that is honest and scary. Imperialism? Conquering? Yea LETS BOMB IRAN, and install Bush as permanent president of the Mid East.

Well how is that working out. How do you think people like being invaded and forced to have democracy? They have been around for several thousands and thousands of years. Their cultures are 10 times as old. Where is the respect?

I want Israel to be safe and terrorism to stop but "PROLIFERATION OF HOPEFUL, REPRESENTATIVE (western) SOCIETIES" is not working and is folly. Just my opinion.

The Macho *wind-shield Cowboy of Bush, Chest pounding, threatening, isolating and name calling is incredibly arrogant, stupid and dangerous. (*Bush is afraid of horses).

We are the greatest country in the history of planet earth but we have acted like idiots and bullies in the world. THANKS GOP AND BUSH!!

The 2008 GOP wannabes DON'T EVEN TALK ABOUT IRAQ, except the bravado of Mitt (double git-mo) or Rudy's dog & pony show, I WAS MAYOR OF NY, (and a nobody before 9/11). The only difference is one has a perfect hair-helmet, the other bald and stutters.

Sounds like 1960...
--
...doesn't it?

When muttering among the Protestants about JFK's "divided loyalty" - to America *and* to the papacy - impugned his validity as a candidate for the Presidency.

Roman Catholics - including us Italians, who have more reason to despise the Irish than even the Irish do - had to put up with a lot of crap during that election year.

Turns out, of course, that Johnnie was more the poster child for marital infidelity than Pro Propaganda Fide.

That sort of thing goes over big in Vatican City, I'm sure.

It's not anti-semitic to argue for a divorce between U.S. foreign policy and the support of Israel, but simple stupidity.

Israel is a Western nation smack dab in the Middle East. To the Arabs (in the words of Victor Hanson):

"It is the closest Western bogeyman, and its Holocaust survivors transformed a part of desert into a technologically sophisticated Western state. Israel 's astounding success is a constant irritant to many nearby Muslims, representing the infidel's ability to fashion a prosperous Middle Eastern society without oil revenues under democratic auspices.

It is a ready base of operations, a source of intelligence (especially HumInt) on the Woggish World, and they're great innovators in the technology of warfare (who d'you think put the first workable UAVs in operation, f'ghodsake?).

Besides, Israel is the only country in the world that has a high an infant circumcision rate as does America.

Culturally, we're practically welded together at the hip.

Or perhaps a bit more medially....


--
"there will be no peace in the general Middle East until Iranians and Arabs have true constitutional government, free institutions, open markets and the rule of law. Without these reforms, they will continue to fail, seeking easy refuge in the shreds of mythical ancestral honor — and this pathetic neurosis of blaming nearby Israel for the loss of it."

..-- Victor Davis Hanson

tanabear
The Iraqi Consitution, along with the government is a joke. It has no real authority. The only purpose was to provide an excuse to stay in Iraq. It is similar to the democracy rhetoric. It is to mask the true intentions of the neo-cons, which is Empire. If Iraqis do have their own constitution and government now, shouldn't we leave? Not if the goal is Empire.

then why are we training an Iraqi army and Iraqi police forces, why do more and more Iraqis keep joining the Iraqi security forces if the goverment has not real authority.

Here are your seeds
The mere existence of Israel is an aggressive act.

And yes, you are right, Palestine has been conquered by many forces over the last several thousand years(including the Hebrews). Great Britain was the last such colonizer.

Israel was mostly occupied by Arabs but even a few Jews still resided there under the Ottoman Turks. Before TE Lawrence could organize an Arab revolt he had to convince the Arabs that they would get something in return and not simply be another vassal state.

The British High Commissioner in Egypt at the time was Sir Henry McMahon. In 1916, he was authorized to promise the Arabs a state of their own in return for their aid in toppling the Turks. So the Arabs went to war against the turks and shed much blood in the process.

Unfortunately they were not privy to talks that were also going on in England between English Jewish leaders(Lionel Rothschild)and British Foreign Minister Arthur Balfour that would lead to the Balfour Declaration in 1917. This proclamation promised European Jews a homeland in Palestine.

Of course after the revolts that toppled the Turks with many Arab lives lost, the Arab leaders were incensed when they learned that European Jews who had never shed blood for, nor ever worked the land of Palestine would be given some land that was already promised to them.

seeds pt. 2
And the what's even more shocking is that after European Jews streamed into Palestine, several Jewish terror groups began to plot the overthrow of the very British forces that protected their (Jewish)claim to this land.

The culmination of their efforts resulted in the terror bombing of the King David Hotel, an event which many Jews celebrate to this day.

Articles:

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/george_galloway/2006/07/sixty_years_since_the_king_dav.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article690085.ece

Books:

Prince of Our Disorder, John E. Mack
God, Guns and Israel: Britain, the First World War and the Jews in the Holy City, Jill Hamilton

EXACTLY! YOU GOT IT!
"then why are we training an Iraqi army and Iraqi police forces..."

We are ALL asking the same question! Why? What could we possibly gain from this war or any involvement in the ME? The obvious answer, OIL!

These people will never be able to live together. It is unnatural for them to do so, historically. Iraq was cobbled together, by Europeans. It is time to allow that area to return to its natural stasis.

That is why I have said this situation cannot be related to post war Germany or Japan. They had the glue of language and culture binding them together. "Iraq" has at least three major cultures and languages mashed against one another.

The British and American Empires have two things in common that have lead to their relative success, LANGUAGE and CULTURE.

Look to the Balkans for your answer to this situation. That is why Clinton and the Europeans had success there. They actually STUDIED the history of that region before they made any moves.



You guys did not read, did you?
Just rely on what proven liar neocon Gerson said, right?

But Mearsheimer and Walt do not treat the “idea of Jews having power” as something “necessarily threatening.” They don’t find it at all threatening. They are quite at ease with “the idea.” “Jews having power” isn’t the issue, and Gerson must know that it isn’t, and he must know they don’t object to this idea. They see pro-Israel interest groups wielding influence in ways that they deem harmful to U.S. strategic interests, much as an environmentalist might see lobbyists for developers as advocates for policies harmful to nature. I might object to Ankara’s influence in Washington without thereby having a problem with “Turks having power.” This line of argument is ridiculous. Opponents criticise this or that lobby because it advances what they see as the wrong kinds of policies. That’s it.


Thanks Sashal
I completely understand Mearsheimer and Walt. I suggested that Israel was a noose around our necks long ago. I was very vocal on political forums during the 2004 presidential election, arguing just these same points. I haven't read their book yet, but it will be the next one I pick up.

These researchers look at the situation through an objective lens. They have taken great risk to publish these ideas. Nobody in power, democrat nor republican, have been willing to look at this situation, precisely because they are beholden to the HUGE sums of money filtered to their candidacies by evangelical and pro-Israel lobby groups (AIPAC). Hillary and Rudy are among the worst offenders. AIPAC is a lobby group for a FOREIGN GOVERNMENT.

Weren't we just berating Hillary not long ago for taking money from a Chinese lobbyist? How is the state of Israel any different? At least we have trade in common with China.

Our support of Israel is flawed and dangerous to our overall security. Its time we wake up and start mending some relationships in the ME.

Isreal or Israel?
Bibi,
Antisemetism or antisemitism? Isreal or Israel? You can't even correctly spell the subject of your tepid tirades -- I don't think your viewpoint 'Isreal'. You neolibs can't stand
'Isreal' because it has the guts to stand up against the hatred, intolerance and attacks of all the world's bigoted, Godless leftists.

THE BIGOT POLICE ARE BACK!
So, libphob how is your fight to legalize gay marriage coming?

libphobic
The response to your post prove that the Democrat party is comprised of both communists and nazis.

Oh, anti-social...
whatever could you mean? I was simply wondering how Libphob's antibigot fight was going.

how progressive
Fight to legalize gay marriage, Hank? My, my - how progressive. Talk about a rear assault.

Progressive?
Don't you mean pinko-commie-Nazi-unpatriotic-towel-head lovin'- liberal?

I listened to Mearschiemer on NPR
He is no anti-semite or is Jimmy Carter, just RW trash talk.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14566795

Oh noTaft!
You just admitted to listening to sources other than Hannity and O'Reilly. Brace yourself!

Hank
Thanks for the tip off. : )

which country

Gee, Hank, is that what you think of yourself? Actually, I think many liberals
are patriotic -- the question is patriots of which country. Why did you ask me about gay marriage: is that a proposition? Sorry, my
card is full, and I don't bend over except to throw up after listening to liberal dogma.

The Cat Is Out Of The Bag
Warren Small wrote:
Saturday, September, 22, 2007 6:36 AM
“Cat's out of the bag, Mike”
-- Yes if sure is Warren
Making up your own story to make your own point is one of the points of this Column. You make your assertion of here of what is not in this column,
”“Funny, I don't remember the UK voting billions in foreign aid …”, etc.,
in the same way Walt and Mearsheimer make their accusations

First, they have argued that the "Israeli government and pro-Israel groups" have shaped President Bush's "grand scheme for reordering the Middle East."

Second, these scholars contend that the influence within the Bush administration of the Israel lobby has been magnified by its "junior partner," the Christian Zionists. In theological terms, they are talking about premillennial dispensationalists -- people who believe that the success of the state of Israel is a welcome sign of the end times.

With their empty assumptions as well as your own, we learn nothing but how to hate a nation that is standing against oppression, and threats of another nation they could hold their own against, which in the past four years they demonstrated this on couple of occasions because of actions against them. You and your liberal friends are so very mislead, and it is painful to think how unhappy you all must be, blaming all your problems on others, not recognizing it is caused by your own ignorance.

Spiceman
I encourage you to listen to the link I posted above. Mearschiemer is smeared. He likes Israel and thinks it needs protection. He does think the illegal occupation of the West Bank, however, is a big cause of Israel problems.

Libphob, finally we agree!
"Actually, I think many liberals
are patriotic -- the question is patriots of which country."

Exactly! Is it Israel or the USA? That is the question I have for both parties.

They Just Dont Know Any Better
Michael Gerson Has presented the fact and sources. Liberal generalizations are 100% incorrect when made about groups or persons we have never met.

Liberals are not bad people, they are just misguided, But even that must not be tolerated or allowed to multiply.



Spiceman
"Liberals are not bad people, they are just misguided, But even that must not be tolerated or allowed to multiply."

You can't breed liberals, the grow from a free, democratic, and thinking mind.

taft
See how they whither when you present them with sources. I mean you can't dispute the actual words of Mearschiemer and Walt.

That's why I left the Republitard party in 2002. It's just full of zombies who never research things for themselves. Its all about what their minister or O'Reilly TELLS them.

They just don't believe in picking up books by people who have made it their career to study particular issues.

Instead they'd rather pick up an Anne Coulter NOVEL.

Spiceman to Taft Thanks
Taft writes: Saturday, September, 22, 2007 9:18 PM
"Spiceman"

My comment was to Warren Small who wrote his own story.

Walt and Mearschiemer are touting that American interests are suffering because of USA commitments to Israel. Casual ways to say why are we there if it is not in our interest.

The Cause of the cause of the cause is the other half of the story. Walt and Mearschiemer need to learn more about social, economical, moral and ethical needs that can be lost if we ignore Israel with whom we share many of these values.

“An injustice anywhere is a threat everywhere." A UN Motto

Likewise, we need to inspire these values in our families, communities, the nation and in the entire world. That is why America stands by Israel. We are all brothers, but some do not act as brothers.

wither!
Wouldn't want them to water down debate with discussions of spelling prowess or lack thereof.

Hank
hank,

Being a life long democrat, I never thought I would vote republican, but after learning of people like you and many others, I have changed my attitude. I read Suskind's book about Reagan-Bush republican, Paul O'Niel, and really liked what he had to say. I think your right on about the new "Republicitard party."

Speciman
I bet you believe the USA went into WWII because of the concentration camps, right? Fact is, Nobody even knew about these murder machines until well into the war. The USA went in because our economic interests were at stake. It was only when our commercial fleets were attacked in the Atlantic and our Navy was attacked in Pearl Harbor that we declared war.

Bottom line is, we can't continue to be the world's police force. We must choose our battles based on personal interest or we will simply cease to exist. It takes MONEY to fight these wars.

Not to mention, when we choose sides we'd better make damn sure our ally isn't the one committing the atrocities.

Speciman
I bet you believe the USA went into WWII because of the concentration camps, right? Fact is, Nobody even knew about these murder machines until well into the war. The USA went in because our economic interests were at stake. It was only when our commercial fleets were attacked in the Atlantic and our Navy was attacked in Pearl Harbor that we declared war.

Bottom line is, we can't continue to be the world's police force. We must choose our battles based on personal interest or we will simply cease to exist. It takes MONEY to fight these wars.

Not to mention, when we choose sides we'd better make damn sure our ally isn't the one committing the atrocities. That's how we ended up in bed with Saddam in the first place.

Waht is Freedom to you?
A good point!

Freedom is not doing what I want. Freedom is dong what I know that I aught to do.

There are too many fake Liberals and too many fake Republicans, who want to divide mature honest minds of both schools of thought so they can take the spoils. Truth is our guiding light, communicated from an honest heart.

Stephen Walt of Harvard and John Mearsheimer have their freedom to publish their book. Even to promote and sell their book, as long as it does not promote any illegal or corrupt acts against humanity.

Quote
"All Freedom is, is a privilege for making the right choice!

Increased strength is the privilege obtained by meeting oppositions in a positive intelligent manner.

Increased knowledge is the privilege obtained by asking reality the right questions.

Good character or integrity are the privilege obtained by raising the standards to meet with high ideals.

Happiness is a privilege earned by living up to all things virtuous, lovely, praiseworthy and of good report.

Self-mastery is the privilege of living up to the best there is in you, and then doing even more.

Our greatest privilege is not to get what we want. The greatest privilege is to become what we ought to be; Then as we become more and more what we ought to be, we attract to our selves all that we need." by permission Copyright(C)2007 Phillip L. Hansen

Spiceman
"Walt and Mearschiemer are touting that American interests are suffering because of USA commitments to Israel. Casual ways to say why are we there if it is not in our interest."

I disagree. They think we should be friends with Israel but not to allow, uncritically, their policies witch actually hurt Israel also. Is Israel any safer, after the Iraq war?

Speciman
Very inspiring. We could all learn a lot from Ted Haggard and Larry Craig.

Here is another story that inspires...
Its about the Zionist FREEDOM FIGHTERS who valiantly crushed their opponents in a selfless and daring operation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

Talk about awe inspiring!

Motive And Intent Must for For Good
That is in part true. The was the same political struggles, but behind that a ship builder was in favor of Germany, and would not make ships for America until he was forced to, as I recall.

The Japanese sent a message through Russian diplomats, but the held it back, concerning Perl Harbor. I am Not A Historian by any means, but given the reason I can find out.

This means too, that you cannot make a pact with those who threaten to exterminate a nation, something Israel is not doing.

I am off to Work. Cheers and good luck

That's because...
they won't allow the Palestinians to HAVE a nation. Did you know Gaza has been under a military blockade since Israel left? They even control the water that should flow into Gaza. Not to mention they withhold the tax moneys meant to fund infrastructure projects there.

The Israelis are no Angels my friend. What sickens me is that they have ghettoized the Palestinians, just as jews were ghettoized by the Nazis.

Very chilling.

Remember 9/11
Taft writes: Saturday, September, 22, 2007 10:19 PM
"Spiceman"

We are safer because we know the enemy, here and abroad better. If we Go to sleep we are lost.

Would you like them to be over here blowing your family up. They are expanding their turf. America is not. The cause, of the cause, of the cause : greed and selfishness.

Got to go now. Thanks for sharing.

Spiceman
Have a good day/night ? Thanks for the interesting convo.

We know but...
Bush doesn't have a clue. If he just listened to anyone besides Cheney, he would understand that it is precisely our unyielding support for unethical regimes like Israel, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan (under Musharaff), that have lead to the formation of Al qaeda and the spread of hatred for America. Like you the people of the ME have seen the disconnect between our supposed "values" of fairness and justice and our actual actions around the globe.

simplemindedness too common
Walt and Mearsheimer have a rather simpleminded approach to the issue of the power of the Israel lobby. They tend to run distinct groups together. They ignore the fact that many groups, like the Cuba lobby, protect policies they identify with. They undervalue the fact that Israel is a democracy which is itself worthy of support.

That said, they tend to be less simpleminded than their critics. Gerson is a good example. His case that the Iraq war was not in keeping with what Israel wants is that it was done in the name of the democracy agenda. But in fact nothing that Bush has done has been in the name of the democarcy agenda other than some well written speeches. (Gerson was either the writer of those speeches are the person taking credit for the writing of those speeches depending on which of Bush's writers one believes). But does anyone else really believe that the main reason we invaded Iraq was some abstract democracy agenda? If so whoever agreed to go in with such a light force should never hold a public service job again.

If simplemindedness is evidence of bigotry there are too many bigots in the word, Gerson included.


What We Don't Know
When we seek the truth, there is no compromise. A compromise is definitely a lie, because a half a truth is a whole lie.

I am of the opinion that we are here to make the world a better place, not only for our selves and our children but for everyone on this time capsule we call earth. We are here a short time, and I am sure we would all love to know that the world is a better place because, while we were here we sought, honored and lived by the truth, as best that we could understand it.

It is my feeling that the corporations that are world wide have played a roll in good and bad. and that some exploited the poor Third World Countries without a just compensation. That is why equality is really not found in many places of the world.

I have a friend who is a refugee from Iran, but he is Azerbajani. They all 35 million, are denied education of any kind in their mother tongue. The Syrians are only 11 million. He told me that one of the Iranian leaders had a beef with one of the cities, and he ordered a mountain of heads to roll. So the Iranian extreme Islamics are the one's we need to understand, they want it only one way, their way. And they are skilled in deception, the big lie, and Hitler said in Mein Kampf. "The great masses of the people[...] will more easily fall victims to a big lie than a small one."

I wrote an open letter to Bush before we went to war. I wrote, "Never turn your back on the enemy, but feed them." Who fears the hand that feeds them? But I have learned since, that Iran does not want that to happen. They want everyone to see us a the enemy. I support our troops, and so should you. Great article

YOU ARE A SPECIMEN ALRIGHT.
"So the Iranian extreme Islamics are the one's we need to understand, they want it only one way, their way. And they are skilled in deception, the big lie, and Hitler said in Mein Kampf. "The great masses of the people[...] will more easily fall victims to a big lie than a small one."

This sounds a lot like the American evangeliban as personified by George W. Bush.

You remind me of my cousin who is in the midst of his third deployment to Iraq. He actually believes that other cultures are just broken and need to be fixed. He can't grasp the reality that maybe, just maybe, the American way isn't necessarily the only way.

As for your Iranian friend, who is a minority, his case sounds a little like the way we continue to treat minorities in this country. Many states deny student the right to learn in Spanish.




And to that last point
I agree, that students shouldn't only be taught in their mother tongue, including ENGLISH. All students should be learning in at least TWO languages simultaneously, so they can compete in this GLOBAL ECONOMY.

Just something to think about.

For the "Israel First" crowd
There was a great article in the Washington Post Sunday magazine (July 16, 2006) regarding the Israel lobby.

"A Beautiful Friendship?
In search of the truth about the Israel lobby's influence on Washington"

You need to pay to get it from their web site, but it deals well with this issue.

We give more aid to Israel than to any other nation. Unlike the aid given to others, this also has no limitations on use (which means that most goes into the military acquisitions).

Small wonder why the Arabs and other Muslims hate us.

Just something to ponder when worrying about America's security.

Mary C.

Doesn't the name Mearsheimer sound Jewish? If he is, how can you argue that he is anti-Jewish? I don't say anti-Semitic, as Arabs are Semitic, so that label is a misnomer.

Welcome N/A
Another zombie killer, yaaay!

We, officially give Israel 1/10 of its annual GDP EVERY YEAR! Can you imagine, what a gift of 1.5 trillion a year injected into our own economy could do for US?

(US GDP official exchange rate: $13.16 trillion, 2006 est.)

(Israel GDP official exchange rate: $140.3 billion, 2006 est.)


Stating the Obvious
I don’t see how it's "anti-Semitic" to state the obvious: that the pro Israel lobby has enormous influence.

Bingo Rangar!
It's these pseudo-Americans who will call you an anti-semite for pointing that out. These people are NOT American Patriots. They must work for AIPAC or be Israeli.

BTW
You spelled your name wrong. It's "Ragnar Danneskjold "
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