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Friday, July 27, 2007
Michael Gerson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Teenaged Morality
by Michael Gerson
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WASHINGTON -- Recent books and studies seem to indicate disturbing sexual trends among evangelical Christians. And this time we're not talking about their pastors or political leaders. The new attention is on evangelical teenagers, who reportedly start sex earlier than their mainline Protestant peers.

One gleeful headline on an Internet site recently read: "Evangelical Girls Are Easy." That is not the way I remember it.

Now, in the cruel march of years, I have a child on the verge of joining the tribe of the teenager, and its rituals hold a sudden interest. In this circumstance, a parent has a choice between turning to sociology or turning to drink. So I called a bright young sociologist at the University of Virginia named W. Bradford Wilcox in search of consolation.

Wilcox argues, in a paper for the Russell Sage Foundation, that the facts are more complicated and more hopeful than the sniggering media caricature.

When the statistics on teen sexuality are controlled for social and economic factors, conservative Protestant teens first have sex at about the same time as their peers -- the average is midway through their 16th year. That is hardly comforting to conservative Protestant parents, who would expect more bang for the bucks they spend funding Sunday schools -- well, actually, less bang.

But these numbers shift when controlled for religious intensity. For those who attend church often, sexual activity is delayed until nearly 17, while nominal evangelicals begin at 16.2 years, earlier than the national average.

This trend is more pronounced on other measures of sexual behavior. Only 1 percent of conservative Protestants who attend church weekly cohabit, compared to 10 percent of all adults. (On this statistic, nominal evangelicals almost exactly mirror the nation.) Twelve percent of churchgoing evangelicals have children out of wedlock, compared to 33 percent of all mothers.

These facts, according to Wilcox, support some liberal claims and some conservative ones. Liberals are correct that economic and cultural factors matter greatly, sometimes more than individual belief. Teens with good life prospects and a strong sense of the future -- kids with economic and educational ambitions -- tend to avoid risky behavior such as drugs and early sex. Without those prospects, the temptation is strong to live for the moment.

The facts also support a basic conservative belief: that it is difficult for teens to be moral alone. Wilcox argues that teen sexual behavior can be influenced -- that teenagers can be more than the sum of their hormones. But responsible behavior requires both "norms" and "networks." An intellectual belief in right and wrong is not sufficient. Teens require a community that supports their good choices, especially in times of testing and personal crisis. "Kids who are embedded in a social network with shared norms," he concludes, "are more likely to abide by them."

Sociologist Peter Berger calls these networks "plausibility structures" -- sources of authority that do more than lecture or shame; they define the meaning of common sense. When institutions such as religious groups, families, government and the media send a strong and consistent message -- smoking is stupid, driving under the influence is criminal, teen pregnancy is self-destructive -- we have sometimes seen dramatic changes in behavior. Teen pregnancy and birth rates in the United States, for example, have declined by about one-third since the early 1990s.

These messages of responsibility are often reinforced by tight-knit religious communities, but they are not owned by them. Wilcox notes that American liberal elites often "talk left and walk right, living disciplined lives, and expecting their children to do the same, even when they hold liberal social views." Divorce rates among college-educated Americans, he points out, have fallen since the 1980s, as it became more evident that casual divorce did not serve the long-term interests of their children.

The decisive role of authoritative communities in determining individual behavior should not surprise conservatives. Conservatism teaches that individuals are not inherently good and so must be carefully civilized. They need social structures and networks that foster duty and discipline and define those commitments as common sense. In "The Quest for Community," Robert Nisbet warned: "Release man from the contexts of community and you get not freedom and rights but intolerable aloneness and subjection to demoniac fears and passions."

It would be nice if teen sexual behavior could be automatically changed by an abstinence lecture or a sermon. Setting those norms and expectations, however, is a small part of a larger cultural task. Moral men and women need moral communities.

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About The Author
Michael Gerson writes a twice-weekly column for The Post on issues that include politics, global health, development, religion and foreign policy. Michael Gerson is the author of the book "Heroic Conservatism" and a contributor to Newsweek magazine.
 
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Colin
You are actually pretty on the mark regarding Christianity. But the shift toward modern CHristianity was absolutely inevitable. When Christ predicted his return and the end of the world, as we know it, the original Christians believed it was imminent. Jesus would be back ANY DAY. A religion based on only being around for a few months or years was was 100% certain to morph into something else if it was to exist for thousands of years.


Len
As I said, the couple of ideas I brought forth really are counterintuitive. I hold no illusion that anybody would likely bring them to reality.

That said, the real problem with the schools is not that they do not provide appropriate vocational training. They don't, but the underlying issue is that they do not provide adequate fundamental skills. If you can read well, have some mathematical and scientific sense, and can write/speak reasonably well you will do fine.

Another aspect is that historically and across cultures one thing has affected the frequency of child bearing more than any other, and that is the educaiton of females. More education = fewer children. Period. Of course, this means that the least educated folks will have the most children.

And finally, I think we agree there is no simple, single solution. The problem is ages and ages old. The abstinence only approach is like other eradication efforts. Prohibition. War on drugs. Pornography. Attempting to squelch a natural human drive has a long history of actually makign things worse. Managing and directing those drives is the only rational path.


Religion or Math?

We are victims of our culture. To say Evangelicals have sex earlier than the population in general and accept that as true without understanding the study is dangerous. I have belonged to a 3,500 member Evangelical church for 30 years that was started by Billy Graham’s parents. In that time I know of one girl getting pregnant, but not knowing the circumstances which may have been no fault of hers. The problem with these “surveys” is how you take them. If our church girls are having sex they obviously are being extremely more careful than the public sector or alternatively they aren’t having it. This church also started a skul to compete with the giver-ment indoctrination camps.

Here is the real issue. For 167.75 hours a week, the kids hear the message of the world, much of it with millions of dollars of the slickest marketing. For 15 minutes a week they are hearing the message of God from some poor preacher, if they can pay attention that long and this is doubtful at that age. Who will win that battle?

Who your kids run around with, what they watch on the idiot box, what type of indoctrination camp they go to such as the k-12 giver-ment indoctrination camps versus a Christian indoctrination skul has a impact on the kid.

50 years ago, teen pregnancy and sex was far less. The reason is TV was in its infancy, giver-ment skuls didn’t discuss sex, and people spent more time in church and had one parent at home.

A more lucid study would be to go to religious skuls and communities and evaluate the influence of religion, community support and sexual activity. I suspect you will find as the exposure to the religious message increases from 15 minutes a week to combat the world's message that the sex activity will drop off. For example, at what age do Quaker kids have sex, kids from the Jewish communities in upstate NY that run their own skuls, and Amish community kids. Now if they are having more sex then I compliment the secular world for doing right and alternatively condemn them if the kids have less sex.

The reason that kids 50 years ago didn’t have as much sex is simply because the secularlist had not become so powerful in their use of TV, magazines, and culture to promote it. It reminds me of a fellow who I got to attend church and he had a teenage girl who had a baby. Her behavior was a typical rebellious giver-ment skul kid. She was being expelled, having sex, and flunking every subject. I suggested he try sending her to our Christian high skul seeing the giver-ment skul had kicked her out. After a few months, she became one of the top students and had a huge swing in behavior. I asked how this could be, she being so far behind in the basics that she could make up years of learning while having to take care of a baby at home in the evening. She said in the giver-ment skul I was admired for being bad, in this skul you are admired for excelling and being good. To hear this from a 15 year old who is not a Christian blew me away. Obviously, Giuliani understood this in NY because he would send the worst giver-ment k-12 indoctrination camp kids to the Catholic skuls.

Children consciously respond to their environment and 15 minutes of a sermon isn't going to have 1 iota of counter influence in a culute consumed with sex.

Abstinence Means No Regrets
from someone who knows from experience.
Who says it doesn't work? God put His Laws in place to protect us - no premarital sex before marriage and fidelity after (for both partners) means never having to deal with the guilt of possibly passing on an STD - never having to deal with STDs at all; never having to worry about the example you set for your kids, never having to worry about out of wedlock children, never having the emotional damage that comes with being spiritually bonded to multiple sex partners...and your spouse will know you valued and respected them enough to wait; that they are the only one. I don't see any negatives to waiting.

momof5girls
--They all know how Mom and Dad regard sex-- that it is a wonderful, glorious thing that should be engaged in regularly--WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF MARRIAGE. To have sex otherwise is to step out from under the umbrella of protection that God provides. ( I'll take that protection over a condom any day of the week).--

That is why there are so many Christians obtaining abortions. If you do not discuss protection along with abstinence, as your ideal, then be prepared for fallout.

--DA--by the way, sin IS something to be ashamed of--
Biblical sin is nothing to be ashamed of. Doing something unethical is something to be ashamed of. The ONLY sins of the bible that someone should be ashamed of is murder and theft. Otherwise, these ‘sins’ tend to be healthy [sex,masturbation] or a way to keep parishioners toeing the line [doubt,apostacy]. The person who should be ashamed is the person spreading these vicious and ridiculous beliefs.

--Married sex is not sin. But it is probably your goal not to feel any shame. Therefore, if we eliminate the concept of sin, we eliminate shame.
There is nothing wrong with sex, period, if it is done responsibly.

Ps. You obviously are not that much of a believer in your religion or you wouldn’t be conversing with men.
1 Timothy 2:11-14 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Our kids need reality, not games.
For me as a biblical theologian, the key issue of this fine article is the little to no difference found between the sexual conduct of the “Christian” youngsters and those who make no claim to being Christian. That indicates more than words can tell that what passes for Christianity in this country leaves much to be desired. For about 40 years, I have held that the “church” is not the church in truth, but to the contrary, it is quite something else entirely and not a pretty sight.

The apostasy of the church began in about the third century when Origin, one of the early church Fathers, decided to tweak Christian theology to make it more acceptable to the pagan Greek philosophers of his day. This original apostasy gave rise to the Catholic “church” which, during the intervening years, developed as the source of even more apostasy and eventually John Calvin passed it along with some superficial changes as Protestantism (the protest against Catholicism). During the years following, Christian theology has become increasingly paganized until now it is considered heresy to hold genuine biblical truth. Christian universities and seminaries teach a highly paganized, Greecian perspective on what the Bible says that bears no resemblance to what Jesus and His early followers clearly had in mind. This religious paganism is now what’s known as Christian theological “orthodoxy.”

With that brief history of theology as background, perhaps it will be possible to understand that the problem of sexually promiscuous “Christian” teens is really the even more profound problem that quite frequently they are not actually Christians, i.e., true followers of Christ Jesus, and thus have no powerful inner moral/spiritual motivation other than common conscience greatly weakened by all aspects of our entertainment media. They have been taught the currently fashionable false gospel of salvation by leaders of whatever their particular family’s denomination. These false salvation formulas do not produce the moral transformation promised in Scripture simply because they do not encounter the profound levers of moral/spiritual change deep within our innermost beings. However, these levers are at the heart of what Jesus taught in Luke 9:23, “If anyone would be my disciple (become a Christian), let him deny himself (put away selfish motive), take up his cross (of unselfish, holy love) daily, and follow me (live out that faith commitment daily in real life).” God makes no promise to honor anything other than that because nothing else works to change and empower us from the very depths of our being outward into every detail of our behavior. It is not in the power of societal superficialities or bogus Christianity to produce much of anything by way of real, dramatic or lasting change in our lives. God’s true and genuine salvation from literal sin is what our "Christian" youngsters need (and we adults also) to be able to withstand hormonal pressures and the attractive but deceptive ludicrous twaddle of our surrounding pagan society.

Am I the only one....
that found momof5girls choice of words comical when referring to her daughter and sex?

"Many will choose the wide, easy path. My daughter"

Abstinence before, Fidelity after
The truth is abstinence is hard, but the best way, and leads to the greatest joy. There is a big difference between pleasure and joy, which we don't want to acknowledge.

A young man or woman coming to the marriage alter with the greatest expression of love saved for that one special person is the standard, and how much joy there is in that! Virtue, moral cleanliness, a high standard is good, not evil, and should be held up - high, and encouraged, and held noble, far more noble than giving in.

Total abstinence before marriage, and total fidelity after being married is the only true standard. People won't like this, but it doesn't change the truth - it is weakness and wrong to live any other way. Instead of patronizing our youth, dumbing it down, saying it's too hard, let us lift the standard high, and we as parents by example show them this is the very best way, and leads to the most happiness and joy.

I have seen this standard raised high, and i have seen our youth embrace it and flock to it. Any other way leads to sorrow, misery, and despair. Maybe instead of our youth, we as adults should enthrone it in our own lives, and then our children will naturally embrace it.

jack
I dont think some of your solution are pracitical or useful. I am 72. When I was growing up, you could quit hs and there was industrial jobs that did not take much acadmic smarts.
There were also vocational schools which taught very useful skills.

The liberal zeitgiest said everyone should go college; nonsense. But as a result it was a black mark to have vocational schools.

Vocational schools would be somewhat different. There would be empahsis on elementary computer skills; fixing of computers; secretarial. All things for which there is job market

Good luck on mandatory birth control. Better yet have the tubes tied and you get a license to have children when you have a job and $5000 in bank.

Fantasy. More practical is not to make welfare so attractive and to go back to my day, where you were felt stupid to get pregnant. Now it is a badge of honor in some cultures. And who is to blame. In part I blame the liberal zeitgeist and reverse racism it created such one cannot talk rationally of these things without being a labelled a bigot.


i dont know if this might fly. If you are a teen are pregnant then you get paid $1000 to give the baby up for adoptoin if you also agree for one of these birth control implants for a year. And if you come back the next year you get an addition $200. for the birth control implant And if you eventually have a child and are married and have $5000 in the bank, you will get $10,000 bonus.

Now that is using govt policy to reinforce positve behavior which not only benefits the person but all of us. And it would be much cheaper than current welfare policy and cut down social pathology.

OF course the liberals and the race whores would complain insulting.


This kind of column brings out all irrelevancies and no practical solution.

It is a given that good families produce good children. But that begs the question. I think you put too much reliance on didactic education. Those kids come out of school not knowing much in acadamic areas, what makes you think they are gong to learn much about responsibility the way things are set up now.

I wonder if the decrease in smoking for adolescents is high price. OF course the middle class are affected by the health business and example.
When I was a kid, a cigarette cost one cent.

The people who smoke now are the same ones who get pregnant. It is mainly a lower class blue collar habit. And there is education all over the place. I dont want to discount it, but it is not the whole story and for certain groups I dont think of much impact. Look at all the propaganda about drugs and health. Well, you know the story of that. Even here the smart classes use drugs but in a way that does not screw them up.

So it is less education in the sense of being exposed to messages, and more of general style of living.


Len
I don't necessarily disagree. I do disagree with teh idea that the only thing we need to do is bring people to Jaaaysus and everything will be fine.

And I believe strongly that ignorance is bad and knowledge is strength. It's foolish to think this sexual blossoming is a brand new issue. Or that we can divert the hormone train in any significant way.

I have plenty of solutions in mind, though most people would find them counterintuitive. For example, I think we should eliminate mandatory school attendnace after 8th grade. I think anyoen receiving state welfare payments should be required to utilize birth control. I think we need extensive sex education, free of political agendae.

AudiR10
Let me expand. Your child learned self-control, think before you act, etc, not from some lecture he received. HE learned from the day he was born in the millions of interaactions he has just like one learns a language from just being immersed in it. One does not need Sunday School to be told not to steal or be cruel to animals or to respect our elders. You learn that from immersed in culture of your family and similar neibhors who live that life without having to preach it.

AudiR10
You and Jack have something in common: Preaching with no practical solutions. You write as if it is didactic lesson a parent must give to a child to make them life yours. It sort of like, "Put a lump of sugar in the tea and make it sweet" People are not socialized that way. It is not that the parents of losers are dumb. The issue is not smartness. The issue is how does one create a culture that people think first and all those good things.

Magic Answers I dont have. Except some obvious ones such as public policy that creates irresponsibity and a free lunch for acting irresposible is not one of the answers. It is the whole culture which gives people a pass for nonsense that is the problem People like you or the particular culture you come from were relatively immune to the broad cultural changes, but many were not. I am not sure how to fix it. Getting Christ into your life can onlly effect a few.

Faulty Comparison
Having four boys of my own, I am quite familiar with having explained to them the bad part of smacking their friends heads with a baseball bat.

That comparison would be apt, but only if certain other conditions were met:

It would be apt if there were a point later in life where, once some cultural switch had been thrown, smacking one's friends in the head with a bat were considered to be a sublime and beautiful experience.

It would be apt if the head smacking was something that both parties wanted to engage in and which both parties felt was really, really fun.

It would be apt if evolution has assigned a one to one relationship between head smacking and reproduction.

Seeing as these things are not true, I submit that the comparison is silly. But, true to form, most folks are seeing a zero sum game, black and white, either/or. That's more of a problem than a solution. One can readily teach responsible behavior without relying on a "just say no" approach.







momof5girls
The world does not revolve around you. Hence, preaching about sin maybe useful to your tight knit group but has no relevance to many others. You are not irrational enough to think the country will evolve into your religion. I dont mean any disrespect to you and your faith, but when you are going to deal with a public policy issue, you have to find common ground.

And the common ground of course is stong family life, religious or not; inculcating respsonbility and thinking before you act. There are many teens starting at 16 having sex who have their priorities right who dont screw up their lives by STD, teenage pregancies. They go onto successful careers.

What distingusihes those who make it in life successfully and maximizing their potential is not dependent on your religion.

Go read the article again; he makes the same point.

Jack, DA etc.
Exactly how would you know how much information is discussed inside a conservative, Christian home? With five daughters in the house it is a rare day when we DON'T talk about sexuality in one form or another. It is merely the content of our discussion that I suspect differs from yours.

They all know how Mom and Dad regard sex-- that it is a wonderful, glorious thing that should be engaged in regularly--WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF MARRIAGE. To have sex otherwise is to step out from under the umbrella of protection that God provides. ( I'll take that protection over a condom any day of the week).

DA--by the way, sin IS something to be ashamed of. Married sex is not sin. But it is probably your goal not to feel any shame. Therefore, if we eliminate the concept of sin, we eliminate shame. Good luck with that.

Jack
"She" wants to have sex when "her" body says... yes, once again it is the fault of The Girl ... as men/boys/males are incapable of self control at any age ...

Let us phrase the question slightly differently as we use a cultural truth about boys (I have sons and a grandson so I know this group better). Suppose we say "We should not try to teach boys not to pick up a baseball bat or hockey stick and slam their friends or enemies or fathers or sisters in the head ... boys should not be taught to refrain from impulses their bodies demand ... the teen years are those in which boys are demonstrably more inclined to impulsive violence leading to death, so we should teach them at ten to twelve to be responsible in their choice of times, places and people to slam in the head with ball bats or hockey sticks, not try to teach them that this behaviour is wrong, BECAUSE THEY CANNOT LEARN TO DEFER THEIR IMPULSES AND IT IS WRONG TO EVEN SUGGEST THAT THEY TRY."

While I have heard many excuses for the rising tide of violence among teens and twenty-somethings, I have not yet heard anyone suggest that "because their bodies want to" beat their friends and relatives to death, we should only teach them whom and when to kill. Perhaps that is coming soon.

And if you think that is extreme, go down to the local teen shelter and look at the crack hoochies of fourteen and fifteen who will allow you to degrade them in any way if you will give them another hit, and tell me that bringing up a girl to believe she CANNOT and MUST NOT be taught to defer her impulses til the right time is not sheer lunacy. Unless, of course, you are a sex-crazed male in whose interest it is to make her believe this is true.

Jack on education
"education" is one of those words that everything and nothing. The Wash DC school district spends $17,000 per kid; hence garbage in, garbage out.

I am 72 and when I was a kid, hope sprang eternal, and we all carried a worn condom, in our wallets and knew about pregnancy and STD which existed at the time.

What counts is a culture of responsiblity that is inculcated by certain kind family structures and the surronding community. I dont in a magic way that education in sense of didactic lectures and showing how to put a condom gets to that. Not that it is not useful, but a small part of the issue.

When the public policy of the Great Soceity reward teenage pregnancy(you could leave your home and get on apt and the govt paid), there was an increase in irresponsible sexual behavior.

The sexual revoluton had a very bad effect on some communities, especially the black ones. It had little effect on other communities except to lower the age of sexual activity but in a context of being smart and responsible about it.

One might ask if allowing teenagers to bring their out of wedlock children to school in some program to baby sit them is a wise idea because it rewards irresponsibility. Maybe it is better for others to observe that such is a dead end and have some inhibitory effect on careless sexual behavior.

So many liberal programs with all good intentions as the Great Society end up rewarding irresponsible behavior.

In sum, the issue is not some didactic education, but policies that reward responsible behavior; given that, responsible sex will follow as it does in other communities which engage in sex but without the negative consequences. For the most part, I dont think sex education or abstinence education in schools amount to much. It is being nurtured in a culture of responsibity, imbibing thinking before acting, etc. that is the primary answer. And I think alot of the liberal social policies from Welfare, affirmative action(lowering standards; enough to be this or that color than work your tail off) that lead to irresponsiblity and dedication ton one's future which means thinking before you act. And if you think before you act, you lower the chances of STD, pregnancy and thinking a role in the hay is be and end all. It takes it place in a list of priorities; not to be shunned, but taken in context of one's priorities.

If You have a trick to accomplish this education in inner city public schools, let us all know. Apparantly the liberals in slavery to teachers unions wish to keep the status quo which has plenty of sex ed, a minor thing, but does get to major things that I referenced above.

Parents and mentors are key
It is astounding to me that this column (and I only quessing about the research that is referenced) offer virtually no comment on the single most significant factor on how a young teen makes these kinds of personal decisions. And that is the level of involvment of the parents, and specifically the father (or absent a father, a substantive mentor of some kind) directly, and vitally, in the life of young adults. This practice of allowing, or even expecting, so-called experts and educational institutions to set the tone for these vital decisions is part of the problem. Parents need to find the strength, step up and help guide their young people. Don't farm it out. Do the work.

AND THIS NOW
Is there anything more important than closing our borders, to prevent criminals, terrorists, nuclear bombs getting through?

IF SO, WHY DON'T THE MEDIA SHOUT ABOUT THAT EVERY DAY, 24/7....?????

If
this is indeed the case, which I am not sure, then it is another example of parents outsourcing their parenting to the church just like many do with the schools.

AliveInHim
--The most compelling evidence for Christianity IS man's depravity--

That is not evidence and is definitely not compelling. Compelling evidence would be god taking over every television in the world at one moment in time to tell her message and then making regular visits to humanity. Compelling evidence would be a verifiable collection of roman and pagan documents that discuss the dead walking the streets after Jesus’ crucifixion. Instead we have a set of books the severely contradicts reality, history and science.

--The newspapers are not after all full of stories of sweetness and light and of fellow human beings helping one another.--

And many of those violent stories are courtesy of dogmatic religious belief. How much violence in the Middle East, Africa and Europe have direct ties to religion?

--It IS pointing it out that sin goes deeper than what we see outwardly. --

Sin is a manmade concept to make people feel bad about natural feelings and acts.

--If there is no ultimate standard for morality, then how can there be such a thing? Where, ultimately, does "morality" come from, if there is no standard by which we can or should judge anything to be "good" or "bad"? who decides, and by what authority--

This is a pitiful argument. The notion that there is no subjective morality and therefore we need a fairy tale. There are cross-cultural norms of morality, regardless of religion. They may differ slightly but all cultures look down upon in-group murder and theft. This notion that America’s laws are built upon the 10 commandments is a joke. The first 3 commandments, alone, are shot down by the 1st amendment of the constitution. The only 2 commandments that correspond to our justice system are the ones concerning theft and murder. Yet, we have evolved as a social animal to look down upon these acts because we could not live together if these were acceptable.


--I don't know a single Christian who teaches his kids that sex is something to be ashamed of--

By telling your children that they are born sinners and sin if they merely WANT to have sex you are teaching them that it is something to be ashamed of.

Folks, There Are Options

Sexuality is not a Manichean function. Well, it is to Christians, I suppose, but so is almost everything else. Not all sex is good. Not all sex is bad. Not all pre-marital sex is good. Not all pre-marital sex is bad. For example, one thing the articel does not address is that its quite likely that most young people begin thier sexual lives within the context of what they consider a serious relationship, far from teh random bacchanalia people seem to envision. Some people can deal with the emotional aspects at 15, some can't deal with them at 30. Protecting our children from some things is good; protecting them from every possible tribulation is not.


Sexual activity itself involves a vast range of eras, behaviors, cultures, ages, and religions. To postulate that there is an "ANSWER" is absurd. The best we can do is to prepare our own children with information and an ethical grounding. They will then make decisions, for better or worse, on their own. The worst thing we can do is what I see advocated by Christian conservatives, which is to provide as little information and as much moralizing as possible. I strongly suggest we provide more information and less moralizing.

DA
Valiant isn't accusing anyone of being a criminal. The most compelling evidence for Christianity IS man's depravity. The newspapers are not after all full of stories of sweetness and light and of fellow human beings helping one another. Jesus' point about a man lusting in his heart after a woman being the same as if he'd slept with her is not merely an indictment of a particular act. It IS pointing it out that sin goes deeper than what we see outwardly.

If there is no ultimate standard for morality, then how can there be such a thing? Where, ultimately, does "morality" come from, if there is no standard by which we can or should judge anything to be "good" or "bad"? who decides, and by what authority? Are you married to an axe murderer, perchance? If not, why not? What difference?

I don't know a single Christian who teaches his kids that sex is something to be ashamed of. It is something, however, that has a powerful effect upon the whole person. It is not merely an itch that must be scratched. This is why we tell our daughters to watch out for the charmer, and our sons to watch out for the flatterer. We know where the weakness lies and *that* is what we want to guard out kids against.

chr3354
Every teen is emotionally ready to have sex? How silly of me- forget everything I've written.

ValiantForTruth
--No! Biblical Christianity teaches than men are dead in sin and are in need of redemption.--

An excellent example of the immorality of Christianity [and Judaism and Islam] is presented in that statement. What moral and good being would create something just to punish that something for acting as it was created to act.

--But we do expect supernatural change--

Then you will be waiting for a long time. The supernatural is a myth [including ghosts, mind reading, crystals].

--Teens are bombarded from the culture to follow their nature.--

Teens receive too many conflicting messages. Sex is glorified in the media and, yet, they are told to be ashamed of themselves and their bodies at home. There needs to be a consistent message of responsibility. Will people have sex? Of course, we are animals and do have natural physical urges that are very strong. Luckily, we are intelligent animals that have devised ways to minimize, potentially, negative aspects of sex.

--Unless they are converted they have no power within themselves to be other than slaves to sin.--

You are part of the problem. You would have your children beat down with abusive statements like ‘you are worthless slaves to sin’ and ‘you were born a sinner.’ Then you deprive them of knowledge by preaching ideological ‘abstinence only.’ It is even worse with females. They are told that they are the cause of the fall of man [genesis 3:16]. They are told that the pain of birth is a punishment. They are told that they are less worthy than men [Exodus 21:2,7, Leviticus 27:2]

Trent is Close
Trent, a number of your details and interpretations are incorrect, but your ultimate conclusion is not quite as off base as your underlying argument.

High schools are indeed a waste of time, or mostly a waste of time. Almost 100% of American parents indicate they want their kids to go to college, and so high schools are geared toward prepping them. Doing so, however, leaves the 70% of the people who will never get a college degree untrained for reality.

I suggest a counterintuitive approach. We should eliminate mandatory attendance laws for anyone past 8th grade. If you want to go to high school, it's voluntary. If you want to stay in high school, you have to be productive.

We'd have to deal with some 8th grade losers for a few decades, but ultimately, everyone would go, parents would be more invested in student productivity and actual learning would occur.

Now, laying the blame for some of this at the feet of unions and minimum wage supporters is absurd. Uniosn and minimum pay efforts were in place centuries ago, long before any of this became an issue. In fact, it is the anti-union efforts of the conservative community that have undermined the value of labor and made atteding college mandatory for anyone who wants to have a life.


Dyerje
I'm with you.

Funny how it seems to be mostly the women who have that regret, but then we know men tend to have such a different perspective on sex...

Menarche
I know about menarche coming earlier and earlier-I'm a physician, for Pete's sake...
If you look at procreation in most other species it is a programmed response at best and out and out rape at worst. So for all of you who think sex is inevitable because one can't fight back the hormones, I guess you wouldn't mind if I gave in to MY hormones when your daughter is around- whethter she wants it or not.
We are still human beings and can still choose between right and wrong, wise and foolish, now or later...
And Jack, society has passed from passive acceptance of teen sex to outright advocacy. I don't go into a tizzy over sex- I rather like it.
But the essence of parenting is protecting our children from reckless behavior. Testosterone causes more than sexual behavior- aggression and impulsiveness, to name two. No one seems to be advocating that we stop discouraging those hormonally induced behaviors.
As a parent of 4 I will continue to strive for the ideal. If my kids choose to have sex prior to the time I think they are ready for it, its not going to be a big deal- I won't be disappointed in them or love them any less.
And I do wish I'd started having sex later- not so much for my self, but I wish I had been old enough to fully weigh the impact of it on the young girls I acted out with. I guess when one has a conscience, one does seem to "freak out" about such things. It doesn't sound like you have any experience in that respect, Jack.

Jack
And therein lies the fundamental difference in the way men and women think about sex. Boys use love to get sex. Girls use sex to get love. The key word here is *use*-and it doesn't matter who gets hurt in the process. Both are wrong. There is truly nothing new under the sun, as someone said long ago.

I haven't ever seen Momof5girls imply, much less tell anyone he's going to hell for doin' what comes naturally, so knock it off. She is standing up for what has been proven to be best for the sound psychological development of teens.

Jack
I refer you to the second part of my post.

It all comes down to education
and politics - again! Prior to the late-nineteenth century, by the time adolescent men and women got married, they'd been seriously apprenticing to be responsible adults for almost a decade of their lives already in terms of acquiring the necessary earning and domestic skills needed to be both providers and parents. With the appearance of both unions and minimum-wage maniac types, the wizards of washington D.C. decided to undertake a bit of social engineering in order to delay the entry of wage-depressing adolescents in the workplace. When I was a teen, I needed to obtain both a Social Security Number and a Work Permit, I'll bet few remember Work Permits. This was all very intentionally designed to infantalize adolescent males, whose natural drive socially expressed themselves in the form of finding work, finding their flow, and then getting hitched to the "girl next door," so to speak. As long as things were permitted to proceed at a natural pace, few out-of-wedlock pregnancies happened, as people tended to get safely married at just about the point that they hit their sexual peak.

The advancement of technology had nothiing to do with anything inasmuch as techical schools have always popped up to provide the commerically viable training that young people needed to be employable, and even the public high schools offered many programs to that end (wood shop, auto maintenance, and cosmotology, just to name a few). Even in my day, public high school was at least about either producing productive and responsible 18 year-old adult members of society. Those who wished to enter one of "the professions," or become a teacher, had to put off sexual gratification for 4 more years in order to enjoy a greater economic or personal reward. Did such a choice require extra maturity? Surely it did, which is why college was not some universal right, or some over-ripe adolescent warehouse. The post-World War II entry of many GIs into college was the result of a unique combination of factors: 1) the Depression, 2) the downright Darwinian maturation process that war puts people through, and 3) the perceived need to regulate the entry of the ex-GIs into the workforce as way of keeping the prevailing wage-level up. The GI Bill had both beneficial and problematic results inasmuch as it furnished a highly-educated workforce but it also turned college education from a "nice to have," into a "must". One result of this has been to, slowly yet inexorably, impeach all the high schools from their role as the preparers for adulthood, and reduced them to either prep-schools or pre-schools, depending.

-Trentamj

Jack writes:
What we DO have a problem with is exemplified by momof5girls, who basically tells us we are all going to hell for recognizing the effect of nature in our lives. ---

Putting correctly, not repenting (turning away from) of our sins and putting our trust in Christ is what sends us to Hell.

momof5girls writes:
God Bless you and your daughter momof5girls, too many parents have fallen short of the Biblical model. I also believe the scriptures are true in the Bible and agree that Biblical values do work as well as abstinence. I also agree the path is narrow and those that follow it, great is the reward.

Of course, as obvious as it is, by the type of responses shown here too many choose the wide (easy) path to suit their desires, only leading to destruction.


,(Raising Hand) me, me Over here, I know
Hell, I wish I had started having sex earlier.

And if you tell me you do not know a single male who also wishes he'd had sex earlier then you are mostly likely hanging around with a bunch of people who are not telling you the truth.

I actually don't know anyone
... who wishes he or she had started having sex earlier.

Not one single soul.

I know a number of people who wish they had waited.

One of the most important things you can do for anyone in this regard is get him or her past the fear of disdain -- from peers, from the media, from pop psychologists, from people like our poster "Gonzo."

When people can't get to your spirit by laughing at you or laboring to condescend to you, you are truly free. That is a far, far more important hope to offer adolescents than a cynical safety lecture and a condom.

Cultural Myopia
Sorry folks. Teens are ~not~ having sex earlier. If anything, they're delaying sex longer and longer.

What these articles ~always~ fail to address is the simple, anthropological fact that teens have been having sex since the dawn of civilization.

The difference between history and ~now~, however, is technological. Until about a century and a half or so ago, teens were, quite literally, young adults trained, prepared, and capable of being independent, productive members of society.

Teens getting married and starting families was ~not~ uncommon and, in many cultures, was typical. Indeed, even in the early 1900's if a woman was not married by 20 she was likely doomed to be a spinster.

Even today most state laws have provisions for teenagers getting married.

The difference is technology. Before the technological revolution, a young person could generally acquire enough life skills and work ethic to either find a productive job or manage a family farm.

Now, however, young people require a minimum of roughly ten years of ~formal~, institutional education just to be ~minimally~ functional and independent (enough to survive). It takes even longer to be "successful" or "prosperous".

As a result, young people are dependent on their parents until much later in life. Consequently, our culture has infantalized young adults.

C'mon, culturally, we still talk about teens and even colleges students as "kids" and "children". They're ~not~. They ceased being children when they entered adolescence.

Half the "problems" with teens and sex stem from the fact that we treat young adults like children. The other half comes from the fact that they are not prepared for the consequences of sex -- they are not prepared to be independent, productive members of society, much less nurturing parents.

Until we, as parents, are honest with ourselves about the problem we'll never be able to be honest with our young adults about the solutions.

Perspective
The article and discussion pretty much lack any kind of perspective at all.

For example. Several hundred years ago, the age of menarche was roughly 16. Women, lacking options, were expected to marry at age 18 or so, often earlier. The gap between ostensible sexual awareness and the opportunity to act on it was 2 years, three at the most, often less.

The current age of menarche is closer to 12, sometimes younger. The average age of first marriage for women is closer to 27. The idea that a woman would remain a virgin for 15 years when her biology says not to is foolish.

Olddoc asks why "liberals are so intent on having sex so early and often." We aren't intent on it any more than anyone else. We just don't freak out about it. From a liberal perspective it seems that nothing sends a conservative into a tizzy more than something sexual. It's conservatives who obsess about sex, not liberals.

What we DO have a problem with is exemplified by momof5girls, who basically tells us we are all going to hell for recognizing the effect of nature in our lives.

And lastly, the historical record tells us this issue has been with us ever since somebody piled a few branchs together and made the first hut. Half of all literature features an element of "who's kid is this anyway?" Leaders as far back as Caesar Augustus have tried to control the sexual bahvior of their youth. It doesn't work. Period.

The best bet in dealign with the issue is education. You must give young people accurate and adequate information about sex. That is why all teh cries from teh right about increased sexuality are absurd, becuase their only plan is to just not tell kids about it, as if not explaining how a condom works will somehow decrease the amount of testosterone surging through a 14 year old boy.





Carefully civilized?

‘Conservatism teaches that individuals are not inherently good and so must be carefully civilized…It would be nice if teen sexual behavior could be automatically changed by an abstinence lecture or a sermon…Moral men and women need moral communities.’ --Mr. Gerson

No! Biblical Christianity teaches than men are dead in sin and are in need of redemption. There is nothing more conservative than redemption. The local church committed to Biblical truth is the means of grace whereby men are converted, sanctified and encouraged in the faith. As the statistics show there is hardly any difference between today’s visible church and the world. What happened to the church?

Today’s gospel is less than Biblical and does not bear the fruit of conviction of sin followed by conversion. The new gospel neglects the law and tolerates sin. It is about self-esteem rather than self-denial; and more about works than grace and truth. Instead of humbling men in the dust before God and exalting Christ, the new gospel elevates men as being not so helpless that he cannot cooperate with Christ to save himself. Calling for repentance from sin and exercising church discipline are considered unhelpful. The church roles are full of folks who do not assemble with the congregation.

We do not expect automatic change. But we do expect supernatural change according to the promise that when the gospel is given out God will call His people to Himself. The message of the gospel is not to be conformed to the world but to be transformed by the renewing of the mind.

Teens are bombarded from the culture to follow their nature. They are told that they are no higher than other animals and that there is no God to whom they are accountable. Unless they are converted they have no power within themselves to be other than slaves to sin. We cannot expect the culture to provide a social structure that substitutes for the church.



momof5girls
--The Bible is very clear--

That is irrelevant. The bible is nothing more than a work of fiction, sort of like the Bagavhad Gita, the Quran, the book of Mormon and all other books that tout a supernatural world. It also says:
Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
*Now pray for world peace and tell me how it goes.

--You said that abstinence doesn't work. "Never has" is your quote. Sorry to burst your bubble, but my daughter invalidates your claim of never.—

Studies have shown that abstinence only education may delay sex for a short time but results in increased problems later in the form of unplanned pregnancy and std’s. If your daughter has not been educated and gets caught up in the moment; she may pay for it for the rest of her life because she is more likely not to use protection.


wrong
what is wrong with this is it is not that the liberals are wanting kids to have sex earlier it is that conservatives are wanting people to have sex later. our culture has outgrown our hormones if you will seeing as how the average person hits puperty between 13-16 but marriage usually does not occure untill the late 20's now when in years past most people were married by 18 or 19. i do not support teen sex as they do not have the means to support the consequences but i dont agree that they are not mentally ready for it.

Gonzo
The Bible is very clear that the path that leads to destruction is broad and the gate is wide. By contrast, the road that leads to life is narrow and the gate is small. (Matt 7:13-14). The conclusion is that many will enter the wide gate, but few will enter the small one.

The fact that many teens are having sex, just confirms what the Bible says. I know many would try to use these studies to say that biblical values don't work. To me, it just reinforces my belief that scripture is true.

Christian parents make a mistake if they think that just going to church, Sunday school and youth group is going to make their teen righteous. It is, instead, a life that must be pursued, not caught. Everyday a Christian must choose to live a holy life; it does not happen by accident or by the wave of some magical wand.
This is the reason why Christians still fall into the trap of sin like everyone else. It takes a lot of effort and most don't bother.

You said that abstinence doesn't work. "Never has" is your quote. Sorry to burst your bubble, but my daughter invalidates your claim of never.
Many will choose the wide, easy path. My daughter is choosing to be among the few who follow the narrow, difficult path. That is the choice for each of us.

forced ignorance
It is called ignorance. If you deny children knowledge then they will not only have sex but will engage in more risky behaviour. Knowledge is power, teach your children about sex and protection.

Lastly, abstinence only education sets society up for an increase in STD's, teen pregnancy and abortions.

Gerson,olddoc, and AudiR10
Kudos to you. I consider myself a born again Christian and arrived at the same conclusion that wishes that people would control their passions just as a matter of good common sense for their and society's best interest. People think God is a cosmic killjoy who doesn't want anyone to have fun. Some principles do make sense when put into practice and consistently violating these principles does have consequences both individually and corporately. I am intrigued by the part of the article where sociologist Wilcox describes many elite liberals as "talking left and walking right". While I applaud their good behavior this statement, if accurate, confirms a suspicion I have had for a long time. These people talk out of both sides of their mouth. They will preach long and hard in favor of the liberal agenda to the public and say how great it would be if we all accepted this way of life. Of course if these beliefs cause them any inconvenience they go the opposite way. You liberals would at least get some respect if you practiced what you preached. To AudiR10: you are not the only one with liberal relatives or friends who laugh at your "outdated morality". We baby boomers are indeed reaping what we sowed in the 60's.

Gonzo
You seemed at first to make the author's point-
"in the years of profound lack of wisdom" sounds like a good time not to start having sex.
Why are liberals so intent on people having sex early and often? Compare the number of people you have known who wish they'd have waited to the number who wish they'd started sooner- if you look at it honestly, you will see there is little peril in waiting for emotional maturity to catch up with physical.
Before you libs think I'm some kind of Bible-thumper, I am, on a good day, a Deist. I don't want to control anyone else's body, although the social ills of early childbirth, rampant STD's, and the spate of single parent families is exerting significant control on MY body (i.e. making it work a lot harder to sustain the extra tax burden caused by these problems). I do wish people would control their own bodies, the same way I wish they wouldn't drive at excessive speeds or use a hair dryer while in the bathtub.

Let's see...
at a time when the hormone train arives, in the years of profound lack of wisdom, it's best to shut down the station? That's abstinence.

Somehow that makes sense to certain folks. And uh, well, it seems it doesn't work. Never has.

But the sheep who want to control your bodies will bleat on....

What you think you know
What your children need are parents who set an example, and who have friends who adhere to that example -- and parents who can articulate and who frequently do articulate the reasons they believe and behave as they do. Instead of the Marching Mommy Model that simply strides the world screaming NO NO! and slappiing things out of the hands of informed adults, what your children need are parents who can explain and demonstrate why patience and moderation and deferral are the things that lead to success. And that is not only in the realm of sex; it is in the realm of money, education, manners, and experiences. "There is a time for every purpose under Heaven" says the prophet, and what your children need is to see the time line not only spoken but acted out by their parents and the friends their parents choose and expose their children to.

Of course, this also means that people need to start realizing that children aren't just another thing to check off their task list, not another trendy accessory to be dragged around with them like their newest Louis Vutton or Prada purchase, to show that they are With It.

Recently some friends of mine who were in town for the Steelback Grand Prix made a donation to the local street ministry of baby layettes. They were told that 25% on average of the girls from 16-22 that the Shelter helps are either pregnant now or have given birth in the last six months. My "outdated morality" as my hippie sister calls it wanted to know right away where their parents are. Of course their parents are out there doing just exactly the same thing. These girls are only doing what their parents taught them was right.

Kids need parents with strong grounding who can model as well as espouse. Evangelicals and religious parents have a community, if they are careful in choosing it, that can help back them up. But without the input and example of the parents, in the end it comes to naught.

It gets curiousier and
curiousier ....
Let's see ... strong sexual drive needed to maintain the species ... Check
Media obsession with their genitals catering to lucrative prurient consumer interests ... Check
People are healthier and more vital ... Check
The New World order requires extended adolescence to maintain the status quo ... Check

God is Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin but is totally without anything other than an immature and superfiscial existance for even true believers at least some of the time .... Check

Better to grow up over sensualised than as a druggy or with a desire to enter politics and want to control everyone elses life.
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