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Saturday, October 27, 2007
Michael  Franc :: Townhall.com Columnist
Will Congress Permanantly Close The Intelligence Gap?
by Michael Franc
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“Showing apparent signs of concern over events in Iraq,” ABC News reported last week, Osama bin Laden warned his terrorist comrades that: “Your enemies are trying to break up the jihadi groups.” He implored them to “work in one united group.”

That’s good advice for our side. Yet House leaders at that time were pressing ahead with legislation that would dramatically hamper the ability of U.S. field commanders and intelligence officers to win the war in Iraq.

It’s a troubling move toward a time-consuming legalistic regime that would force military and intelligence leaders to cede some of their decision-making authority to government lawyers and federal judges.

To see such legal restrictions in action, consider a tragedy that occurred earlier this year. The New York Post reports that similar obstacles forced U.S. military commanders to delay a search-and-rescue mission for three U.S. servicemen taken hostage by terrorists last May.

According to a timeline that Admiral Mike McConnell, the director of National Intelligence, provided to Congress, lawyers for the National Security Agency determined that special approval from the Attorney General would be required before terrorist communications could be monitored. Then, as the Post reported: “For an excruciating nine hours and 38 minutes, searchers in Iraq waited as U.S. lawyers discussed legal issues and hammered out the ‘probable cause’ necessary for the Attorney General to grant such ‘emergency’ permission.” Finally, the lawyers blessed the surveillance the military commanders requested.

It was too late: The soldiers had been executed. No one knows whether this particular intelligence gap led to their deaths. But it certainly didn’t help.

The intelligence gap at issue apparently arose when a special federal court charged with reviewing matters involving national security secretly interpreted the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) to require a warrant for any electronic surveillance of persons outside the U.S. if their electronic communications might be routed through the U.S.

Previously, the definition of “electronic surveillance” in FISA allowed intelligence officials to differentiate between surveillance of persons located outside the U.S. -- for which no FISA warrant is required -- and domestic surveillance.

But, due to technological changes, even purely foreign-to-foreign communications now go through the U.S. Thus, though the law remained unchanged, the previous distinction between overseas and domestic surveillance no longer applied. McConnell estimates that, thanks to the intelligence gap, we lost somewhere between one-half and two-thirds of the foreign intelligence information which would otherwise have been collected.

Thankfully, in August, a reluctant Congress temporarily closed this intelligence gap. For now, intelligence officers can monitor foreign targets overseas without a court order and without fear of prosecution.

Nevertheless, liberals fulminated. “We were stampeded,” senior House Judiciary Committee member Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.) charged, “by administration fear-mongering and deception into signing away our rights.”

Not surprisingly, the legislation Nadler championed would limit the type of foreign intelligence that may be acquired without court approval. As White House officials note, it would impose “additional, wide-ranging, burdensome oversight requirements” on intelligence analysts. Trained linguists and analysts are already hard to come by; this approach would force them through endless legal hoops. Federal judges would be charged with making “operational determinations” best left to field commanders. Because no intelligence may be collected while appeals are pending, their decisions would be all but final.

The ramifications were spelled in a frightening floor exchange between Reps. Heather Wilson (R-N.M.) and Dan Lungren (R-Calif.):

Wilson: “If the United States Government inadvertently collects a phone call [where] Osama bin Laden himself calls into the United States, and … we didn’t expect him to call in to America, and we get lucky and we pick it up, and that phone call says to one of his cells in the United States, ‘Tomorrow is the day. Blow up the Sears Tower in Chicago,’ is it my understanding that under this bill … the intelligence agents couldn’t even tell law enforcement about that?”

Lungren: “Unless that cell had already been identified by us, we knew who they were, [and] we had already gotten legal permission to do that, we wouldn’t be able to do that.”

Wilson’s hypothetical example shouldn’t be dismissed. My colleague James Carafano has listed the 16 known terrorist plots, involving 57 admitted and accused terrorists, that have been thwarted since Sept. 11. At least a dozen of them seem to have an international connection that could have involved intercepted international communications. Some, such as the terrorist cell arrested in August 2004 for plotting to use a radiological “dirty bomb” to unleash a “memorable black day of terror” against leading financial targets, could have killed thousands.

This prompts a good question from Rep. Rodney Frelinghuysen (R-N.J.). “Why are we on the floor debating … legislation that essentially amounts to unilateral disarmament on our part?”

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About The Author

A long-time veteran of Washington policymaking, Mike Franc oversees Heritage's outreach to members of the U.S. House and Senate and their staffs.

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Congress & the Intelligence Gap
It can be found between their ears.

You know, politicians have a lot inside their heads.

No brains, just an empty lot.

Intelligence Gap
presently FISA allows the govement to listen for up to 72 hours before they get a warrant. FISA was never ment to be applied to conversations that were between foreginers on foregin soil. That sounds like a misreading of the statue.

Leave it to lawyers:they'll get rich
OUR PEOPLE WILL DIE.

There is NO ROOM for lawyers on a battlefield.

There is NO ROOM for lawyers on a battle
AMEN, "Well, now" - your statement says it all.
More and more I'm convinced - mainly through their actions - that Democrats are so blinded by their hatred of Bush that they are willingly destroying this country. Democrats are no better than Islamic radicals - their tactics are different.

Concerning the 3 captured soldiers who were killed while the lawyers sat on their A** -- if I were a parent, I'd sue them and Congress for every cent I could.

For every soldier that falls...
...in this war because of political inbcompetence, a Democrat should be made to pay with his or her life.

That's an acceptable exchange in my book.

why?
why do the people elect dumbocrats? I'm not saying Democrats, there is a difference, but Dumbocrats continue to be elected.
Is playing the victim and getting something for nothing so important that you sell out to the likes of these? scams and bribes and favors have been the bedrock of Dumbocrat survival forever.
these fools will lay this nation bare in the face of her enemies and within 20 years, there will be no more USA. the flow is uninterrupted.
I mean for all of his "bad mouthing" our troopers and RED HOT promoting of the newest SCAMNESTY for INVADERS of our homeland you would think he would be thrown out of the Senate by the good people of Illinois in 2008, but I doubt it greatly!

Elkiejg writes:
Concerning the 3 captured soldiers who were killed while the lawyers sat on their A** -- if I were a parent, I'd sue them and Congress for every cent I could.


Sadly, Elkiejg, I have read somewhere that congress has its self set up so it can not be sued. I am not sure what the law is or how it reads, but I have heard something along those lines. Too bad if it is true!

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com


Outrage
It is tragic that Americans are considering voting for any person (for Congress or President or even dogcatcher) who would hamstring our soldiers in battle. It is also tragic that this column, or at least the purported facts of this column, are not the lead story in news reports.

Why are we accepting the defeat and death of our own soldiers, without some kind of publicity about the people who are helping our enemy?

By the way, does anyone know how many manhours are required to complete one FISA warrant application? I have heard 200 hours or the equivalent of five men (or women) working one week to complete the requirements for a single warrant. Why do we accept this nonsense? Why do we pretend that the Democrat leadership and even some Republicans in Congress are on the side of American citizens?

Oh brave new world
that has such congresscretins in it. What nation can long survive when it extends to its virulent
enemies the freedoms and legal protections reserved for its citizens?

One of the items listed in the Preamble to the Constitution is "provide for the common defense". Do any of these idiots ever read the document?

This abuse of our nation by congress will continue until We The People dismiss the cretins and elect people to office who understand that the purpose of government, as outlined in the Constitution, is serve the citizens.


Congress is not dumb
Many people beleive that some of our Congressmen and Congresswomen are dumb.

I give them more credit and I belive that they know exactly what they are doing and why they are doing it and they will continue to work for our enemies until we vote them out of office.

elkiejg and doc
Congress can't be sued eh. Minor obstacles like that has never stopped the ACLU. Get the parents or famlies of these soldiers to CHALLENGE the ACLU to come to their aid and SUE the SH*T out of these treasonous trators. Whaddaya mean the american criminal liberties union won't take the case. They take on the government on the illegal alien situations.
I know I know wishful thinking.........

Okay I was WRONG
I Agree now, we should bring the troops home. Not because I don't think they need to be there, and not because they aren't doing a wonderful job.

I say: Let Congress and Every Lawyer in America go and fight our wars with their legalese. We can sue our enemies all to death.

Why in heavens name do we have these bozos in Congress?

We are no longer a nation of laws, we are a nation of lawyers, and nit-pickers, and politically correct speech police.

This is just another example of our Congress exhibiting their tremendous Hubris. If they know so much, let them put their own boots (and high heels, Pelosi/Boxer) on the ground in the ME.

I've had it with them endangering our troops every time they open their mouths, and every time they legislate some hyper-legal hoop for our troops to jump through before they can even rescue one of their own! This is beyond disgusting!

THROW THE BUMS OUT! I've had it.

PC on the battlefield???
Our government has lost it's mind.
Like the old Andy Griffin record. The revoutionary war was won because the British marched in a straight line, like an army, and the Revolutionists picked them off from every angle.
The same applies here. Our lawyers are saying "play Nice, play fair" while terrorists are not. They are getting away with everything they want to because they don't have rules, nor Geneva convention rules. It's absurd!!!

Get rid of the lawyers, and the left wing loonies, and let us win the war!!

Okay you Lawyers out there
Here's a legitimate question:

What LEGAL recourse do we as citizens have to prosecute those members of Congress who are hell-bent on undermining our military's ability to protect themselves and us?

Can we Impeach? Recall? Execute for Treason? What? I really want to know so we can start the ball rolling.


Another Poser
If WE the PEOPLE are the United States, and our Representatives are just that...only Representatives, how would it work if we all supported the troops.

You know...go ahead and do what needs to be done and ask 'forgiveness' later.

I cannot imagine any sane, reasonable and patriotic American that would have demanded hoops be jumped through before searching BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY for our soldiers.

I am just Outraged by this.

As far as I am concerned, the troops can do what is necessary ON THE GROUND, and Congress be damned.

Bobby
rgr that!


If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

mrs. Paddy
Right on girl. There are probably literally no more than 5 or 6 in congress that are worth keeping......MAYBE. A national movement should be started to specifically state remove ALL from congress. Start all over again. That path might have its problems. But, it can't be any worse than what we have now.
tHE UNITED STATES CONGRESS MUST BE ENTIRELY REMOVED.
Using a dimmicrap tactic.....say it often enough and loud enough and it might come to pass.

signed...Bobby aka UncleB


Mrs Paddy
This is off subject for just a minute, but I remembered something last night that I don't know if you know it or not.
When I was young, we saluted the flag by raising our arm toward the flag, with palm raised. The government said it looked too much like the Nazi salute, and changed it to hand over heart.

nanna
Wow! Another cool tidbit! Have you started your book yet? :-)

Mrs Paddy
I'm too flattered:)

Get rid of congressmen? Not easy
"Can we Impeach? Recall? Execute for Treason? What?"

Sorry, the Constitution is written such that there is nothing we can do as people. We can only petition others in Congress to unseat them (it won't happen), or to impeach them (this won't happen, either).

The only recourse (short of assassination, which is not a meritorious option) is to defeat them at the polls. As long as there are enough idiots with ballots who will vote for the incumbents, those incumbents will stay in office and make life horrific for all of us. We get a shot at them every two or six years.

I am on record as wanting to set up, not *term* limits, but **career** limits. No more than 15 years of office, including all elective offices held and any military, appointed, or civil service equivalent to or higher than Major. But that would take an odd alliance of politicians who are actual patriots, rather than the self-serving scum feathering their nests today. This ain't gonna happen, neither.

Governments run schools to ensure that
future taxpayers will not whine too much
and will docilely accept any capricious
edict without complaint.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

Wait a minute...
Doesn't Kahn 2:10AM just about reverse all your blithering???

Are you guys insane? If the military has 72 hours to record anything before getting approval then, tell me what those geniuses were doing waiting a crucial 9 hours for legal advice. And since the law states that the purpose of the safeguard is to protect American civilians from unnecessary spying, what lawyer could possibly say that because the transmission went through switches in the U.S. that the military can't listen in on that?

This sounds to me like you had some politicians putting those kidnapped soldiers at risk because they wanted to scare a bunch of sheep. Booo!

If this doesn't convince you guys that your leaders are a bunch of criminals I don't know what could.

If you want to know about how this adminstration treated FISA before 9-11 just look at the evidence of the Moussaoui case and listen to the letter written by Time's woman of the year Colleen Rowley, who blew a whistle saying that the FBI prevented, directly reprimanding agents who wanted to invoke FISA to examine Moussaoui's laptop. But head of the BinLaden unit who issued that reprimand and withdrew the FISA application, was promoted after 9-11.

If you guys knew what your leaders are doing, you would want to hang them by their necks from the nearest lightpole.

Terrorist
Good comments PADDY


The problem is that our troops are fighting the terroriest the best they can but the Socialist(DEN) Party dont care because they think that they are fighting the terrorist too(PRESIDENT BUSH} Their hatred for the PRES only gets more of our trrops killed. This country has a problem when we have DEMS stealing papers from our archieves and stuffing them down their pants just to save CLINTOONS legacy.

Whats more sad is the head of the terrorist is now begging for support for his regime and the Socialist party of DEMS will probably help him.
If QUEEN BEE gets elected we will go back to the days before 9/11 and have this problem all over again.

nanna
I'm too serious! We need documentation from people like you about what things were like before all this nonesense we have now took charge.

I'd be happy to organize and compile them for you! I think it is no different than the project that was going around interviewing the Greatest Generation or Titanic Survivors...

It's important! You are a gold mine of information. Don't doubt it!

Why are we continually surprised
Why are we continually surprised by the "modern" Democratic Leadership or their left wing support groups? From Vietnam where they allowed intelligence information, sources and methods and even the names of operatives to be leaked through the Church Committee which threw out much of the proverbial baby through the Clinton administration and now the Congressional Democratic leadership they have made every attempt to destroy all but in name only our intelligence services. Why? in the name of privacy rights, freedom and liberty of course.

When did those privacy rights extend first to people who had no right to even be here now then to those they do not even live in the USA. Some on the left have said that if "we" so believe in the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution say we should support those rights for all the citizens of the World.

Where and when did we sign up for communal suicide?


Why are we surprised?
Why are we continually surprised by the "modern" Democratic Leadership or their left wing support groups? From Vietnam where they allowed intelligence information, sources and methods and even the names of operatives to be leaked through the Church Committee which threw out much of the proverbial baby through the Clinton administration and now the Congressional Democratic leadership they have made every attempt to destroy all but in name only our intelligence services. Why? in the name of privacy rights, freedom and liberty of course.

When did those privacy rights extend first to people who had no right to even be here now then to those they do not even live in the USA. Some on the left have said that if "we" so believe in the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution say we should support those rights for all the citizens of the World.

Where and when did we sign up for communal suicide?


Mrs Paddy
I will think about it. I will also get some more from my sister, who is ten years older than I.
'
She is the one that reminded me of working in the airplane factory, and because she was small, she crawled into the gas tanks, and made sure they were spotless.

whopulled7
Try knowing what you're talking about first. Then, and only then, start typing.

The timeline McConnell presented to Congress developed in the wake of the FISA Court decision earlier this year: that if foreign parties' phone communications might be routed through stations on US soil, it would require a FISA Court warrant for US intelligence to monitor them. The issue is FOREIGNERS' communications OUTSIDE THE US, so the 72-hour rule doesn't apply.

In delaying action for legal advice, NSA was complying with that Court decision. McConnell was pointing out that it was a bad decision, and that the FISA Act needed to be revised to preempt that judicial decision, so it would never happen again. This is called "applying a Constitutional remedy" to a problem created by one of the branches of government.

Congress did the right thing and acted, although with legislation that has an expiration date. The change in FISA law needs to be made permanent.

You are no doubt unaware that the FISA Court is presided over on a rotating basis. Another thing that makes its operation erratic is that 11 different judges rotate on it. Since 9/11, only one of those judges ended up ruling that FISA applies to foreign phone calls that might be physically routed through stations on US soil -- but involve no US persons in the actual communications. I oppose "warrantless wiretapping" myself, but there is no question that the court decision here was too arbitrary for operational effectiveness.

Pledge of Allegiance 1
The Pledge of Allegiance started out as the love child of Francis Bellamy, a socialist whom Adolph Hitler admired.

"When I was young, we saluted the flag by raising our arm toward the flag, with palm raised."

At rexcurry.net you can read the origins of the salute that Hitler adopted for his own:
The 1892 program for the pledge stated: "At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil give the Flag the military salute ... . Standing thus, all repeat together, slowly: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands; one Nation, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.' At the words, 'to my Flag,' the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, towards the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side.
( see rexcurry.net/bookchapter1a1a.html )

Bellamy’s addition of the military salute to the pledge evolved into the Nazi-style, straight-arm salute that Nanna recalls.

Bellamy wanted government to assume primacy over all aspects of life, especially the economic, and to impose military efficiency on USmericans. He wanted to brainwash children to embrace nationalism, militarism, and socialism, and choose government-run, tax-funded (grtf, aka welfare) schools with pledges and flags to achieve his goals.

"The government said it looked too much like the Nazi salute, and changed it to hand over heart."

Hitler adopted it much later than the Bellamy cousins invented it. Roosevelt's alteration did nothing to alter the unUSmerican, socialistic, statist nature of the pledge itself.

I will believe that children should learn in
classes of 20 the same age when mothers start
whelping litters about that size. School is
for fish; we are a higher species.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

Pledge of Allegiance 1
The Pledge of Allegiance started out as the love child of Francis Bellamy, a self-labeled "military socialist", whom Adolph Hitler later admired.

"When I was young, we saluted the flag by raising our arm toward the flag, with palm raised."

At rexcurry.net you can read the origins of the salute that Hitler adopted for his own:
The 1892 program for the pledge stated: "At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil give the Flag the military salute ... . Standing thus, all repeat together, slowly: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands; one Nation, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.' At the words, 'to my Flag,' the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, towards the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side. See rexcurry.net/bookchapter1a1a.html

Bellamy’s addition of the military salute to the pledge evolved into the Nazi-style, straight-arm salute that Nanna recalls.

Bellamy wanted government to assume primacy over all aspects of life, especially the economic, and to impose military efficiency on USmericans. He wanted to brainwash children to embrace nationalism, militarism, and socialism, and choose government-run, tax-funded (grtf, aka welfare) schools with pledges and flags to achieve his goals.

"The government said it looked too much like the Nazi salute, and changed it to hand over heart."

Hitler adopted it much later than the Bellamy cousins invented it. Roosevelt's alteration did nothing to alter the unUSmerican, socialistic, statist nature of the pledge itself.

I will believe that children should learn in
classes of 20 the same age when mothers start
whelping litters about that size. School is
for fish; we are a higher species.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

nanna re Andy Griffin
IIRC it was a Bill Cosy bit, called "Toss of the Coin" on his first album.

BTW, the "militia" didn't defeat the British Army. It was the Continental Line, the regular Army that did it up and down the Colonies. The movie "The Patriot" showed a variation of a battle, where Dan Morgan had the militia out front, told them fire twice and run. The British broke ranks and came over the hill, right into several Continental regiments, which fired en masse and broke the British.

Pledge of Allegiance 2
I hate the Pledge of Allegiance. As I said earlier, "Roosevelt's alteration did nothing to alter the unUSmerican, socialistic, statist nature of the pledge itself."

Think about each phrase, each word.

"Pledge" means dedicate; "allegiance" means love, loyalty; "one nation" implies that the united States of America is not the federation the Constitution identifies.

"Under God" I will leave to others. I personally have no problem with this phrase, but that's me.

"With liberty" is fine, but it flies in the face of the rest of the statement.

"With ... justice" is subjective in the sense that I see it as meaning everyone is treated equally under equal conditions, and you may see its meaning that there must be equal conditions.

The pledge, in essence, turns the relationship between the people and the government on its head. The DoI tells us that government gets its power from the consent of the governed, but the pledge reverses that: having the citizen subordinating himself to his servant.

I'd rather see the government, in the body of politicians and bureaucrats, pledge its allegiance to the citizens. We had to do it daily in school, they should have to do it daily in Congress, in City Hall, in school board meetings. They ought to say"

I pledge allegiance to the citizens of the united States of America, and to the Constitution which they created, a free people I am here to serve. I pledge my life, strength, my honor to serve them well.

Schools are not education centers, they
are indoctrination centers. That's why
Bellamy chose them to institute his
anti-freedom, socialistic pledge.

(Sorry about the double post earlier.)

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

The Pledge of Allegiance
The following words were spoken by the late Red Skelton on his television program:

"I've been listening to you boys and girls recite the Pledge of Allegiance all semester and it seems as though it is becoming monotonous to you.

If I may, may I recite it and try to explain to you the meaning of each word?"


I

me, an individual, a committee of one.

Pledge

dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self pity.

Allegiance

my love and my devotion.

To the flag

our standard, Old Glory, a symbol of freedom. Wherever she waves, there's respect because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts freedom is everybody's job!

United

that means that we have all come together.

States

individual communities that have united into 48 great states. Forty-eight individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose; all divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common purpose, and that's love for country.

And to the republic

a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people it's from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people.

For which it stands, one nation

one nation, meaning "so blessed by God"

Indivisible

incapable of being divided.

With liberty

which is freedom -- the right of power to live one's own life without threats, fear or some sort of retaliation.

And Justice

the principle or quality of dealing fairly with others.

For all

which means, boys and girls, it's as much your
country as it is mine.


***~~**~~***


Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country

and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance...

UNDER GOD

Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too?


The Internet loophole
If a terrorist in Iraq and a terrorist in Afghanistan want to communicate via email and evade the FISA law, all they have to do is harvest some American dummy email address off the Internet, and then cc him on their email distribution list for the message. Just having one dummy American email address on their email distribution list would force our intel community to get a FISA warrant.

Things like this make me believe that all these legalistic attempts to define exactly what's legal and what's illegal are going to fail--the technology advances too fast and our enemies are too clever.

It ultimately comes down to a question of trust. If you basically don't trust Bush/Cheney not to abuse their power (which is what the liberals are REALLY worried about), then vote for Obama for President instead. It's that simple.

Changes nothing about the truth
I loved Red Skelton. His editorial doesn't change a thing about the pledge's being an unUsmerican indoctrination tool.

I hope you will check out Rex Curry's site.

Schools are not what they pretend to be.
What they are are wedges to separate
children from their parents' values.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

to dyerje
If those are the facts then it sounds like, under the Bush administration the law has changed for the worse. It used to be that 72 hours any wiretapping could be performed on an emergency basis. What then specifically changed to make that impossible, for 9 hours of emergency, overseas. Are you saying that FISA got more restrictive, so that some judge ruled that nothing could be wiretapped until the courts approved? Since I know that was not the original intent of the law it sounds like something that could easily be corrected, if they wanted to.

But I don't think they want to. By the way, no comment on the evidence presented in the Moussaoui trial? I love the way you cons can just ignore the facts. The FBI agents were screaming about getting into that laptop but Washington Headquarters over rode them. Why is there no investigation into that. I had one of you cons say they are so patriotic that they would not investigate any accusation against the current office holders. Then to what, one may ask, is their patriotic fervor loyal to? It sounds to me missplaced.

Do the patriots on this site know that there is a provision in the new intelligence law that allows, in the case of a new terrorist attack, any president to do whatever ... actually, what the law allows is TOP SECRET. NOBODY IN CONGRESS EVEN ON THE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE KNOWS, what that provision says that a president can do.

Do you guys, complaining about Congress' not passing that law, feel good about giving that unknown power to a future unknown president?????

Think about it.




LS
You get no argument from me that our government controlled schools are a shambles, but your perspective on the Pledge is just off base.

With a true understanding of what it says is not indoctrination, it is an expression of loyalty and patriotism to our nation, and an affirmation that the founding principles should always be as they were intended.

I don't see saying the plegde as a bad thing when linked with a full understanding of what makes America Great.

That, unfortunately, is missing from a good deal of the cirriculum nowadays.


whopulled7
The FISA law was not changed. It was interpreted by one of the rotating FISA Court judges, this year, to mean that the phone communications of foreigners might fall under its provisions, prompting the need for a warrant, if their phone signals are routed through a site on US soil.

FISA, written in the 1970s, does not have provisions that address this potential circumstance, and a judge interpreted it restrictively. In the absence of specific authority for this situation, NSA did not have a basis for assigning itself a 72-hour window. McConnell was right to press for clarification with Congress, rather than making assumptions about his authority that could have been invalidated by a future FISA Court decision -- and that would have meant accepting as precedent the inappropriately restrictive ruling. Remember, this ruling addressed FOREIGNERS' phone calls, not phone calls involving US persons.

You are operating in the fine tradition of the very "cons" you complain about, by trying to conflate other issues such as the Moussaoui prosecution evidence with this one. There is a lot of misunderstanding on this topic. Bush hasn't done anything at all to the FISA law, nor did his administration have any influence on the FISA judge's ruling that prompted the current concern, regarding the monitoring of foreigners' phone comms.

The Bush administration HAS monitored comms involving US persons without obtaining the warrants in advance (although applying for them afterward), and that is of concern to me. To remedy that, I believe we need to revise some of the standards and definitions of warrants for intelligence collection, so that we can still perform the monitoring, but with proper oversight, and without infringing operational effectiveness.

What made USmerica great
We were once a federation of independent states; see the DoI and the Constitution. Today, we are "one nation" of 50 provinces of Washington, D.C.

BTW, the only thing the federal government and the Constitution have in common is geographic: they're both in Washington.

Each state was once separate from the others except for a very few things tied to facing the rest of the world: e.g., war, treaties, trade. Today, there is little political difference between the provinces of Florida and Montana.

Reagan used to say we could vote with our feet. We couldn't then to any significant end, and we can do so even less now. The federal government forces each province to extort welfare for leaches at about the same level and forces each province to indoctrinate youth who live there, all in contravention of the Constitution.

Then we were free, today we are enslaved to a massive debt incurred for things that are not allowed by the Constitution.

The pledge symbolizes why there is no union, why we have a nation instead. It explains why we do not think in terms of liberty for individuals, but rather of privileges for groups. Its history is one of socialism and statism, of central planning and abridgment of personal freedom in the name of Justice.

I cannot in good conscience parrot the pledge. It is a betrayal of everything that was once unique about this great land, and an admission of the success of the powers of the state over the freedoms of the people.

I cannot ignore the ignoble heritage that engendered NAZIism.

I will not accept that the blood my forefathers shed to reinstate our freedoms should be forgotten because those freedoms have no value today.

Government controls education because it
fears people who think for themselves. Denying
them an environment that nurtures thought, it
ensures that its subjects cannot recognize
their bondage.

Le
MAJ, USAR (Ret)
===============
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

dyerje
I simply cannot understand how, previously FISA did not restrict foreign intelligence, and yet a new technology has invalidated that provision. I think it's a red herring.

There is no conflation. The FISA law, it seems to me, was utilized in exactly the same way before 9-11. In other words, where it was perfectly legal to apply FISA, some guy, way high up in the Washington burueaucracy, and later promoted, I must emphasize, chose to say, WRONGLY, that FISA prevented the inspection of that laptop. Thus, it looks like the investigators hands are tied by bureaucracy. But, in the case of Mousaoui, the information had come from overseas (French intelligence and FBI in France) that this is a possible Foreign Agent. Absolutely no restrictions applied, and yet the head of the BinLaden unit, at the same time that everyone was "running around with their hair on fire," the well-known testimony during the omission hearing, took the time to withdraw the application to FISA. It seems to me that is not irrelevant.

I know, ignoring all the facts, someone will say, "What do you think, the Bush administration wanted to go to war against Afghanistan and Iraq. Well, in a word, yes.

Furthermore, you did not comment on the secret provision of that new FISA law. Do you think there ought to be a secret provision allowing the president unknow powers in the case of another apparent terrorist attack? If you care about the constitution you must care about that. Remember that Rome and a couple of honest emperors before Caligula came to power. Once given away those powers will never return. Especially with the craven congress, cowering from the threat of being un-patriotic, we see in power. There actually are some congressmen concerned about that provision, but Fox news will not report it. So, very few even know.

Please think.

whopulled7
You've succeeded in making the point that the FISA judge's decision was indeed a bad one. Of course it was stupid to suddenly decide that foreigners' phone calls are subject to FISA if they might be routed through sites on US soil. But that is, in fact, the decision that was rendered by the FISA judge. It's also typical of civil jurisprudence, which often lags technology by several years.

Routinely available, worldwide wireless communications were not even an issue ten years ago, and it's only in the last eight years or so that it has become likely, or even faintly possible, that phone calls between people who are physically in Iraq might be served by signal routing elsewhere. It's perfectly consistent with that reality that no FISA judge previously ruled, in a restrictive manner, on the subject in question.

Technology changed, and the law was written before modern issues emerged. McConnell essentially appealed a court ruling to Congress by asking for the law to be updated. That was the right path to take, rather than assuming authority for his agencies in a situation the law didn't address.

I can see that you are determined to find deception by the Bush administration in all this. Maybe others will benefit from hearing the actual facts, however.

Powers that be
The main thrust of this article is this; should we ham string our military while their men are under attack and are being held hostage or should they be allowed to go and save those men by any means possible?
In war you fight or die, win or lose. You must at all cost protect your men and the civilian population while fighting those same groups murdering them and yourself, the balance is difficult and our men and those charged with leading them do a dam good job at it, in training and in execution of their task.
But we are the only ones who do it. WE of the west are the only ones who bring lawyers and conscience to the battle field; we are the only ones who question our own men and women and arrest and try them for war crimes; while those we fight decapitate and torturer and murder any and all at will. Those we fight use any and all means to murder even innocent women and children. The military must use any and all tools at their disposal to find and destroy the enemy; I wonder why we must protect the enemy’s rights to privacy or their constitutional right to privacy; we protect the rights of those committing this jihad; when they are fighting to destroy that very same set of laws. And it is a sad set of facts that, we are not willing to say firmly with conviction that the buck stops there in Iraq Iran or Afghanistan where it was born and raised. Where the leaders offered rewards and praise to any and all who would murder any westerner in what they called their holy war against the west not just we of the united states.

dyerje
Are you kidding me, who do you work for? I grant you there is plausible deniability in the case of the single outrageous judge. You may be right there is nothing we defenseless citizens can do to overrule that opinion and we need a new law. But what about the provision I have mentioned. Will you be fired if you agree that that should not be in the law. I have asked you twice about it?

I just can't get over this, that McConnell "correctly" overinterprets one law, soon after it was admitted by the president he knowingly broke that law, and stated in no uncertain terms he felt he did not have to obey it. This is a joke, probably. And no matter what, a president that knowingly breaks a national security law, should be impeached and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

dyerje
I am sorry if I am over-reacting and applying my frustration to one who is giving reasonable explanations to what I think is a surreal political situation. I do appreciate your explanations. But imagine how these cons would be going ballistic if (and it may or may not be inevitable ) when a democrat or how about a really bad person gets into that position and has to use the powers that Bush has set a precedent for the use of. I remind everyone that the path to perdition is paved with good intentions.

Why not simply insert a statement into the existing law that reinforces the simple principle that "transmissions between overseas non-citizens" when considered a threat can be examined. End of story. I still doubt there is any legal interpretation that could stop such investigation, based on switching or internet travel that would hold up.

Did McConnell appeal this wacko decision, instead of just letting 4 soldiers get killed while he over interpreted it? What a load of cow manure!

Mountain Rose @ 00:33 -- on the nail!
eom

Pledges
I agree with LS, I refuse to take loyalty oaths. I support the Constitution, not the corrupt pseudo-socialist, pro police state government we have now which will go totally Communist when Hillary is elected. Note I said when not if, Bush/Cheney and their Neocon cronies will make sure of it.

Lawyers and Congress
are the greatest enemies of saving battlefield lives in the world.

I've read when Clinton wanted to bomb OBL in Afghanistan it took lawyers forever to determine whether or not we could do that (I don't know why) and by the time the missiles flew, OBL wae gone. That was 1998 and might have prevented 911.

whopulled7 (1)
"Why not simply insert a statement into the existing law that reinforces the simple principle that 'transmissions between overseas non-citizens' when considered a threat can be examined."

That, in essence, is what Congress did in August. Congress made that change temporary though, and it needs to become a permanent change to FISA law.

Like you, I don't trust any federal administration to monitor phone comms unsupervised. Even the current administration's former practice (they don't do it any more) of spying first, and getting the warrant later, doesn't work for me. I know it works for a lot of conservatives, but no matter who you trust, that procedure is just too susceptible to abuse.

The abuse, incidentally, would be using this monitoring power to go after political enemies or scapegoats in the US. I'm afraid I can't view a Pakistani on a visa, whose Cleveland-based phone calls with known Al Qaeda members were monitored before the warrant was issued, as having been "abused." That would be a case of improper procedure -- one that neglected the safeguard of informed supervision. But it's not "abuse" in the sense that the wiretapping adventures of Nixon, LBJ, JFK, and FDR were.

whopulled7 (2)
The issue for me is the POTENTIAL for such abuse built in to the practice of exceeding one's authority. The better course would be to revise the standards for FISA Court supervision, so that in the case of counterterrorism intelligence monitoring, what we now call "getting a warrant" would operate more flexibly, and faster, while preserving the essence of its purpose: assuring judicial branch supervision of an easily abused power wielded by the executive branch.

There are reasons why the process needs to be more flexible, and faster; too long to go into here. But I would like to see conservatives line up behind the need for supervision, rather than being as willing as many are to do without it. This issue is used as a political football by both sides; but the bottom line is, we need phone monitoring to be flexible, and we also need it to be reliably supervised. We should focus on making the rules fit the problem, rather than beating each other up with the ones that don't fit.

whopulled7 (2)
(Sorry if this posts twice)

The issue for me is the POTENTIAL for such abuse built in to the practice of exceeding one's authority. The better course would be to revise the standards for FISA Court supervision, so that in the case of counterterrorism intelligence monitoring, what we now call "getting a warrant" would operate more flexibly, and faster, while preserving the essence of its purpose: assuring judicial branch supervision of an easily abused power wielded by the executive branch.

There are reasons why the process needs to be more flexible, and faster; too long to go into here. But I would like to see conservatives line up behind the need for supervision, rather than being as willing as many are to do without it. This issue is used as a political football by both sides; but the bottom line is, we need phone monitoring to be flexible, and we also need it to be reliably supervised. We should focus on making the rules fit the problem, rather than beating each other up with the ones that don't fit.

The $64,000 question
from Rep. Rodney Frelinghuysen (R-N.J.). “Why are we on the floor debating … legislation that essentially amounts to unilateral disarmament on our part?”

Says it all about our liberal moonbat friends. This is a nonissue that doesn't even warrant discussion.

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