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Wednesday, May 27, 2009
Michael Barone :: Townhall.com Columnist
No Time for Tea-and-Crumpet Interrogations
by Michael Barone
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When former Vice President Dan Quayle scheduled a big speech, President Bill Clinton didn't hop in and schedule one for the hour before. When former Vice President Al Gore scheduled a big speech, President George W. Bush didn't hop in and schedule one for the hour before. But when former Vice President Dick Cheney scheduled a big speech for 10:30 a.m. last week at the American Enterprise Institute, where I am a research fellow, President Barack Obama hopped in and scheduled a speech for 10 a.m. that day at the National Archives.

A little defensive, no?

Cheney spoke in defense of the Bush administration's terrorist interrogation policies and of the Guantanamo detention camp. But he was really on offense. The Bush administration managed to keep America safe for 2,689 days after the September 11 attacks, he said. The enhanced interrogation techniques, including waterboarding of three captured terrorists, saved hundreds of lives. Barack Obama's release of the legal memoranda approving those techniques has made our defenders less safe -- now let him release the reports showing the information we got from the detainees.

There were even a couple of well-deserved swipes at the press. The New York Times, Cheney noted, was "publishing secrets in a way that could only help al-Qaida. It impressed the Pulitzer committee, but it damn sure didn't serve the interests of our country, or the safety of our people." The Times reporter sitting behind me at AEI said afterwards he agreed -- whether he was joking or serious I couldn't tell.

From Obama we heard a lawyerly defense of his acquiescence in Bush policies that he lambasted on the campaign trail, including his declaration that we will hold some detainees indefinitely without trial by civilian courts or military commissions. After urging that we not look backward, he did so himself, saying he inherited a "mess" and assuring us, without supporting data, that Guantanamo "likely created more terrorists around the world than it ever detained."

I have tried to understand the fury of the political left, a fury Obama stoked in the Senate and on the campaign trail, over the interrogation techniques and Guantanamo. Yes, the interrogations were a miserable business, and I wouldn't like to be in the room for them, on either side of the questioning. But were they really terrible? You don't have to consult Mr. Webster to know that this is a distinction with a difference.

Sept. 11 was terrible. The terrorist attacks of the 1990s, which Cheney grimly ticked off, were terrible. I recently reread Gerhard Weinberg's brilliant history of World War II, "A World At Arms," and in my comfortable chair could only begin to appreciate how terrible the conflict was for tens of millions.

The war against terrorism, like civilian law enforcement, is filled with no-win choices. I was in law school in the 1960s, when the Supreme Court was issuing decisions softening the treatment of criminal suspects. Those decisions were informed by the law review articles of University of Michigan law professor Yale Kamisar, which set forth the grim scenes of police grinding confessions out of (almost always guilty) defendants. From the Gothic compound of Michigan Law School or the quiet of a judge's chambers, those scenes seemed horrifying, something that just couldn't be allowed to happen.

And from leafy Ann Arbor or the serene Supreme Court building, the results of those decisions, and of the softened law enforcement of those years, may not have looked so bad. But I saw those results on the streets of Detroit, and they were ugly. Crime tripled in 10 years. Thousands of people were murdered, beaten, robbed. Inner-city neighborhoods were destroyed. You can go there today and see the burnt-out houses and empty lots and shells of commercial strips in what was once America's fourth largest city and which now has less than half the population it did in the 1950s.

I believe Barack Obama is taking seriously his responsibility to protect the nation. His speech at the Archives had some uplifting rhetoric, but it tottered between denunciations of the Bush administration and attempts to propitiate those in his own party who are angry that he is continuing military commissions and indefinite detention without trial -- and those Democrats who voted last week to prohibit any Guantanamo detainees from being sent to the United States.

I hope his continued denunciation of "torture" won't limit our defenders to tea-and-crumpets interrogations. And that he realizes now that we need something like Guantanamo.

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About The Author
Michael Barone is a Fox News Channel contributor and co-author of The Almanac of American Politics. He is Senior Political Analyst for the Washington Examiner and a Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a Fox News Channel contributor and co-author of The Almanac of American Politics.
 
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©Creators Syndicate
Interesting Polling Numbers
Cheney's up 27% in 4 months.

Bush is up.

The majority of Americans in 4 polls identify themselves as pro-life.

SS Marriage losing across the board.

A full 25% believe that the Taliban are winning in Afghanistan under Obama.

Obama has numbers in the 40s on Afghanistan and Iraq.

.

Cheney Beats Obama On F. Policy

Cheney's Numbers Are UP BIG.

Americans believe that Cheney beat Obama in the dueling speeches.

Cheney's foreign policy vision beats Obama's.

Military tribunals v. Federal courts? Obama follows Cheney.

Photos? No release. Obama follows Cheney.

Terror Surveillance Program? Obama follows Cheney.

EIT was used a few times and saved upwards of 100,000? Obama still naive.

Only 3 hardened detainees were waterboarded? Obama still naive.

How do we look in the world? Only France (1) and Yemen (high recidivism rate) have accepted detainees. The EU and other allies will not help the US in Afghanistan. Obama loses.


Various poll and links...

Cheney up 27% in 4 months

Surge across the board.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/05/26/look-whos-rehabilitat ing/


Obama losing across the board on foreign policy, Gitmo, Afghanistan, US Prisons, EIT, Iraq, etc.

Various links.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/05/26/obama-losing-on-gitmo /



"uplifting rhetoric"
Always the fall-back to this! Tired of hearing it from would-be critics who nevertheless feel like they gotta make nice. And when corpses are strewn all over some American city because none of them did the job on Obama that needs to be done, gloves off, do we get to listen yet again to their praise for the stirring eulogy this gutless wimp delivers?

The Sipowicz option
WHen I hear about "enhanced interrogation" I think of Andy Sipowicz in NYPD Blue. He said, roughly, "Everybody knows what it means when they ask me to reinterview a suspect. And someday I may go to jail for that. OK." Whether torture (meaning more than the "attention slap" or waterboarding) should be used and whether it should be legal are two separate questions. As it is often said in posts about empathy in Supreme Court judges, "Hard cases make bad law."
I doubt the Miranda decisions and suchlike brought about the crime spike Barone speaks of. I speak as a layperson here but, among other things, the Baby Boomers were coming into the ages where people commit the most crimes. Note that the crime rates have dropped significantly and the "softened law enforcement" is still in place.
It is one thing to coerce hard evidence from a suspect. The Christian burial case, where the police talked about this poor child not getting a Christian burial until the murderer felt so bad he led police to the child's body. It is another to beat out or otherwise force a confession. My Con Law professor (not law school, just college) brought in a speaker who had been on death row because after many hours he had said he could have murdered his parents. The man was pardoned. Not on a technicality, but because the police obtained a tape of another man bragging about the killings.
To bring this back to terrorism, if there is a nuclear bomb set to go off in LA, you get Andy Sipowicz to find out where it is, not make the guy tell you he helped hide it.

WHY THE LEFT FEARS DICK CHENEY
Click ApolloSpeaks and read my piece "Fear of Dick Cheney and its Meaning.

Gee that's just it, isn't it
How I'm supposed to believe our flappy eared doofus from chicago's southside and get down and dirty in the ghetto community organizer hadn't a clue about what is needed concerning gitmo, until he "learned up some secrets" while he was surrounded by government insiders and had access to plenty of military figures for two solid years of campaigning...
It's like the other day, I check the paper, and this fawning piece on how obammy is a flexible leader and it's so great that we all thought was far left, really figured it all out and changed for the better when he didn't close gitmo... OH IT WAS AMAZING....
--
I had to point out that CONGRESS jammed their foot up his lank, and REFUSED his allowance of 90 million to close gitmo.
IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH OBAMA MAKING A WISE DECISION OR LEARNING A DING DANG THING !
Stop giving flappy ears credit WHERE NONE IS DUE !
Congress kicked him in the nut sack and he caved over crying and unable to get up. That's why gitmo is not closing down now !
DANG !

A Matter of Degree
We all know the old joke about the man who asks a woman if she will sleep with him for $100,000 and she says yes. Then he asks if she will sleep with him for $10 and she angrily says, "What do you think I am!". His response is, "We've already established that. All we are doing now is haggling about the price." The point is that once you cross a line, what happens next is just a matter of degree.

In spite of conservatives and unethical lawyers rationalizing that waterboarding is not torture, the fact is that we executed Japanese officers AS WAR CRIMINALS for waterboarding US and Allied prisoners. And definitions do not change. If an oak tree was an oak in 1947, it doesn't turn into an elm in 2009. Nor does popular opinion change definition. Think of the kindergarten class that wanted to know the sex of its pet hamster, so they took a vote.

So, we torture. We say it's OK because it's for a good cause. If it's honorable to torture in order to get information, then how far will we go? The other day someone on townhall described a torture he'd heard of in his native Romania: a hose is inserted in the prisoner's rectum and water is pumped in until, as he put it, "everything comes up in mouth". Would we do that? Would we gouge out one eyeball and threaten to gouge the other if the man doesn't talk? Kill a man's family members? DOES the end justify the means?

Because we already saw in Abu Ghraib that when a culture is established that is permissive of abuse, people will abuse most creatively. Civilization has developed rules for a reason. And one reason is to control the sadism that is intrinsic in human beings.


To St Denis
According to figures I just now googled, Cheney is up 8% (not the 27% you state) since January, bringing his approval rating to 37% according to Politico. CCN/Opinion Research Center has Cheney's disapproval rating at 55%.

Meanwhile Gallup today has Obama's approval rating at 64%, about where it's been all along, with 27% disapproval, assumed to be the Republican hard core.

These figures don't support your contention that Obama is a loser and that "Cheney is UP big". Stating your opinion in numbers doesn't turn it into fact---as in the case of the townhall poster who wistfully wrote, "Statistics prove that 90% of Democrats are child-molesters". Everyone who knows how to post on the Internet knows how to Google and can easily determine facts.

Guantanamo
President Obama can certainly change the rules of interrogation, to the detriment of the American people.
However, I see no reason to blame the brick and mortar complex for the misdeeds. Why must we move inmates from one building to another building, with all the dangers that transportation may entail.
If it were technically possible to move the entire complex to Colorado or some remote island, what would that accomplish?
Just change the rules and change the people enforcing the rules -- problem solved.

The Answer
Anything that we do in war is righteous. When we are attacked or provoked, we have every right to crush our adversaries, kill all their men and enslave their women and children.

And when we emerge victorious, we have every right to punish and execute enemy survivors for their actions.

In return perhaps we may have a day of sorry for our excesses, but that is all we owe our enemies and the world.

We have permitted too many sob sisters and enemy sympathizers in our country, like so many annoying weeds in our yards. We tolerate weeds on our property until we see the damage they do and we resolve ourselves to eliminate them for the benefit of the valuable, and useful, foilage.

One day, when our backs are once again against the wall and we open our eyes to the peril we are in because we let these traitorous cockroaches weaken our national spirit, we will vent our rage on the Left and pull them out by the roots like so many weeds and eliminate them.

Old women who witnessed fascism and saw first hand what happens when evil is not confronted, but allowed to grow and fester so that when the world finally has to stand and fight, and then those old women forget those lessons and today sympathize with our enemies, have wasted their lives. They show their ignorance, regardless of how many degrees they have and regardless of their teaching credentials.

All of this is truth. Those who dispute it are truth deniers and fools.

lily
You really believe we executed Japanese officers after WWII because they waterboarded POW's? Your delusional

Lilly, there's a huge difference
between the 'waterboarding' at Gitmo and the 'waterboarding' in the Japanese camps.

Those who were tried for their actions during WWII went much further, jumping on the distended stomach of those they'd waterboarded.

Since we use the same technique during training soldiers as we used at Gitmo, are we torturing our soldiers?

Lilly
" Civilization has developed rules for a reason. And one reason is to control the sadism that is intrinsic in human beings."

I am astonished that you as a lefty would acknowledge the true heart of humanity. Just a warning you will get kicked out of the progressive club if they catch you saying that the heart of man is black at it's core. They don't believe that Lilly, we are all good and some are just misguided, that is the mantra Lilly.Why else does Obama think he can talk the terrorists into laying down arms, we have just been reacting out of fear, says our dear leader and now he is going to talk them into peace.

Just a word of warning from Lilly Mr. President, the heart of men is sadistic at its core so while you are talking, watch your back or neck or if you have them gonads.

Torture is a subject...
... like Israel and criminal justice, that conservatives should avoid discussing because we make ourselves sound so stupid, dishonest, and psychotic when we do (witness JD's Handsome Son above).
Barone says that the Miranda decision caused Detroit to become an urban wasteland? That makes as much sense as liberals blaming everything and anything on global warming. BTW, this supposed-warming is one of the topics LIBERALS should avoid, for the same reasons (abortion is another).


Get over the semantics
Call it torture, if you will, but get on with it. zer0bama's refusal to part with any document that does not serve his purpose (birth certificate, college records, parts of the memos detailing the information derived via waterboarding, etc.) aside, it seems to work and save American lives, so, what's the problem? If we find folks doing it just because they enjoy it, throw the book at them (or give them the old eye for an eye treatment); otherwise, you come and stand between me and the suicide bomber.

Cheney vs Dear Leader
No wonder Dick Cheney's numbers have risen. Conservatives rarely hear a real man speak anymore. Just wussies. Cheney changed that.

Dear Leader is still campaigning. He is still trying to mesmerize the same idiots who fell for his spiel in the beginning. It is working,too. As long as there's a handout behimd the spiel,the sheep will follow.

One More Time
All torture is coercion. But all coercion is NOT torture.

I interrogated over 200 prisoners in my time. All of them talked. Most did not require coercion. Then there were the exceptions.

To qualify as torture, the coercive techniques must (a) have a high probability of causing death, permanent injury, etc or (b) be done strictly for personal gratification or (c) both (a) and (b) above.

I did not torture. Nor have the CIA/Military interrogators in this current war.

Just to point out what should be obvious: coercively obtained confessions are not to be used in court of law and as grounds for passing sentence.

However, coercively obtained information can and must be refined into the intelligence that provides the basis for appropriate actions to reduce enemy capabilities and render them harmless.

Final Answer.

St Denis
If you will forgive me for being nosey: What part of "Coonposterior" land do you inhabit?

My Dad came from NE LA. My Mother was born in AL and reared in Baton Rouge. On her side, I have numerous relatives scattered about your
fair, if a tad corrupt, state.

BTW: Before he married Miss Landry, Dr. Weiss
was known to come courting my late Aunt Mabry.
I sorta wish that bit about drawing straws was factual, as I could plausibly claim to have had a relative in on the Noble Conspiracy.

Barone
I don't know about you, but if you give me
tea and crumpets, I will tell you anything.

Lilly's position
Lilly I do not know you and I respect your opinion and yes I am an evil conservative that loves his country and values the constitution. These debates in the absract are an interesting exercise. But I wonder if you would feel the same way if your loved ones were in jepordy. Call be a barbarian, but if my two sons were in harms way and terriorist were going to blow them up I could kill.
I had great aunt at Pearl Harbor with her young Marine Corp pilot husband. She told me in the most sober way that had you been there that day you could and would kill.
After 9/11 I am sure that President Bush did everthing possible, within the law, to protect all Americans. I sincerely hope Obama has the wisdom and the guts to do the same.

lilly
Please respond to this true story. (if you choose to ignore it, I will repost it every time you make a post on TH)
What would you do in this situation?
What if it was your child?
~~~~~~~~~~
Her three year old son was asleep on the back seat. Whilst she was in the service station a man drove off in her car. ..the service station's closed-circuit TV camera, saw ..(a man) with a blonde-streaked Afro entering her car.

“Don't panic”, a police constable advised the mother, “as soon as he sees your little boy in the back he will abandon the car.”
He did; police later arrested him after a struggle.
“Where did you leave the Hyundai?” Denial instead of dissimulation: “It wasn't me.” — property stolen from the car was found in his pockets.“Its been twenty minutes since you took the car — little tin box like that car — It will heat up like an oven under this sun. Another twenty minutes and the child's dead or brain damaged. Where did you dump the car?” Again: “It wasn't me.”

Threats: “If the child dies I will charge you with Manslaughter!” Sneering, defiant and belligerent, “It wasn't me”...a body-punch elicited a roar of pain, but he fought back until he lapsed into semi-consciousness under a rain of blows...now, kneeling on hands and knees in his own urine, in pain he had never known, he finally realised the beating would go on until he told the police where he had abandoned the child and the car.

..the location of the stolen vehicle and the infant inside it was portrayed as having been volunteered by the defendant.When found, the stolen child was dehydrated, too weak to cry; there were ice packs and dehydration in the casualty ward but no long-time prognosis on brain damage.

(Case Study provided by John Blackler, a former New South Wales police officer.)

Remember,another twenty minutes and the child's dead or brain damaged.
The sun is frightfully hot.
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