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Saturday, November 15, 2008
Michael Barone :: Townhall.com Columnist
Detroit Automakers a Relic of the Past
by Michael Barone
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Barack Obama has noted, carefully and correctly, that we have only one president at a time. Yet on at least one issue he has taken the lead and nudged the man who will soon be his predecessor in a direction that he might not have taken without prompting.

It is an issue, moreover, that points up the tension between Obama's appeal to young voters and his calls for creating a new America on the one hand and, on the other, policies that he backs which seem designed to freeze in place the America we have.

The issue is whether the federal government should bail out, with a capital injection the size of what would have been unthinkable four months ago, General Motors and perhaps the other two U.S.-based auto manufacturers, Ford and Chrysler.

As one born and raised in Detroit and its suburbs, who once lived next door to Big Three factory workers and later went to school with the children of Big Three executives, I have mixed feelings about this proposal. My native Michigan is ailing, with the highest unemployment in the nation, plummeting housing values and cascading foreclosures. Its economy, despite the efforts of two previous governors -- Democrat Jim Blanchard and Republican John Engler -- is dangerously dependent on what used to be called the Big Three and are now called the Detroit Three.

The bankruptcy of one or more of them would deeply impact the personal lives and dash the seemingly reasonable expectations of those who, directly or indirectly, have depended on them. I can't help but think of these people when the issue is raised.

And yet the implications of a bailout are frightening. The Detroit Three were unprofitable well before the current financial crisis hit, and GM is reportedly hemorrhaging $1 billion a month. The huge cost of lavish employee and retiree health care benefits, negotiated with the United Auto Workers (UAW), makes it impossible for the companies to sell for a profit anything but the big cars and SUVs that, after gas prices hit $4 a gallon last spring, almost no one wants to buy.

No one in the private sector is willing to pony up a dime for this business plan. GM stock is below its 1946 price, and one investment house has priced it at zero.

The Detroit Three are taking advantage of the passage of the $700 billion financial bailout to argue that they, too, need government money to go on. But as Megan McArdle of The Atlantic argues, the finance firms are different. If credit coagulates, everyone suffers, while if the Detroit Three go bankrupt, their shareholders lose their stake, employee and retiree pay and benefits are cut, and real estate values go down in areas where the companies and their suppliers operate -- but life for most of us goes on.

McArdle, native of a similarly bedraggled industrial area (Upstate New York) and an Obama supporter, further argues that the capital invested in keeping the hulk of the Detroit Three operating pretty much as they are, unprofitably, will not be available to those whose startups could morph into the Microsofts and FedExes of the future. We don't know who today's Bill Gateses and Fred Smiths are, but markets sure have a better chance of finding them than the federal government.

Obama's presidential campaign was an entrepreneurial enterprise whose success owed much to harnessing individual initiative through an innovative management structure and creatively using emerging technology. The campaign, as well as the candidate, helped inspire under-30 voters, who preferred Obama by an unprecedented 66 percent to 32 percent margin -- as opposed to his 50 percent to 49 percent margin in those 30 and over.

But keeping the Detroit Three in their present form, with their extravagant health care benefits and the union's 5,000 pages of work rules, is an exercise in preserving in amber the America of the past.

And of course the Detroit Three will not be the last flagging enterprises to line up for government subsidy. Michigan is not the only state that has a talented congressional delegation capable of enlisting allies on relevant committees and from states with economic stakes in failing companies. Other unions, noting the UAW's success in maintaining benefits, will be standing in line.

George W. Bush may well acquiesce in a Detroit Three bailout. GM could run out of cash over Christmastime (Big Three plants don't operate between Christmas and New Year's), well before Jan. 20. If so, I will feel happy for the respite provided my friends and relatives in Michigan. But I will wonder if in preserving the past we are giving up the chance to get to a better future.

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About The Author
Michael Barone is a Fox News Channel contributor and co-author of The Almanac of American Politics. He is Senior Political Analyst for the Washington Examiner and a Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a Fox News Channel contributor and co-author of The Almanac of American Politics.
 
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Who owes what to who?
GM reported selling 1.2 million vehicles in North America during the third quarter of 2007.
Sales outside the U.S. amounted to 1.34 million.
If they operate in Mexico, Latin America, Africa, the Middle East and in the Asia-Pacific region, why are we discussing this?

Big 3 bailout
while if the Detroit Three go bankrupt, their shareholders lose their stake, employee and retiree pay and benefits are cut, and real estate values go down in== areas where the companies and their suppliers operate -- but life for most of us goes on
--Are you kidding me? Do you guys have any idea of the number of jobs connected with the big 3? Yes, they cannot keep doing business as usual. But we need a balance of capitalism and government. In Japan and China, it is just as important to keep people working to insure social stability. Pure capitalists must be absolutely sadistic people. There has to be a transition. I did not vote for Obama,but this is what he represents. We are about the only country stupid enough to encourage blind free trade without protecting core industries. Every country protects its core industries. We have become so stupid that the military is importing chips from China, a potential adversary!! That used to be called treason. What happens when we can't make anything for our own defense. The ability to create and manufacture must never be allowed to go away. It is far too important. Give the big 3 some money, make sure there are preconditions for it, and have a third party auditor of the situation. Ford, GM, and Chrystler, contrary to belief, can make cars that compete with anybody. Besides, does anybody think that the Japanese and German automakers have not received any help from their banks and governments? That is part of their national economic strategy.

What caused this?
While "conservatives" like to "blame unions" why not blame the acutal causes: out of control healthcare costs in the U.S. coupled with policy (unique to America) that seeks to have employers pay for healthcare costs. Today, the U.S. auto companies have billions of dollars of health care for employees, dependents of employees -- and even more retired employees and dependents. Do any other auto companies in the world have such obligations? No. Does any place in the world have healthcare costs even close to America? No.

Yeah -- its the fault of unions for following the policy of the Republican party -- employers being responsible for healthcare costs.

Guess what? Wages for American auto workers for much of this year (because of the falling dollar) were much lower than European automakers -- and not higher than Japanese ones. So, those who claim it is the "high pay" are lying.

One reason that these companies should be saved is that despite these costs and obligations that no other companies that make cars have, they are still able to build cars that are not that bad. Imagine what they could do had healthcare inflation not been 20% some years -- or if we had healthcare costs like Japan.

Barone is also incorrect about these companies profits. They did earn profit during many years in the 1990s. Today, the legacy costs have caught up -- there is no looking back now. This is our government's screwed up policy -- no other country has these issues.

Bailing out Detroit
Dear Mr. Barone:

Why don't the Detroit automakers declare bankruptcy, and reorganize on that basis? Why should taxpayers fund their incompetence, or even their eventual failure? I, too, am saddened by the long decline experienced by the domestic car industry, but where do the bailouts end? Our nation is broke, and we can't afford to help everyone, least of all fat-cats who failed to do their jobs.

Markets must be allowed to work, to impose the consequences of failure, as well as the fruits of success when that happy event occurs. Otherwise, what is the point of having markets in the first place?

If the UAW is willing to bankrupt their employers rather than re-negotiate their too-generous contracts, why should we care about the fate of their workers?

If the government involves itself at the federal level in the affairs of the auto industry, it ought to own outright not only the risks attendent to such a venture, but the profits, should any be realized.

By the way, I am feeling the pinch a bit myself... where do I sign up for a handout?


BraveWord
This is an issue because they are still American based companies where the headquarters are as well as (perhaps most importantly) the retired workers who are costing this company these legacy costs.

Not the workers or the union's fault. They followed govt policy -- healthcare -- employees should pay. Not the companies fault -- they had no idea that health care would rise the way it did. We are not like Japan, U.K., Germany or Belgium -- all companies which manufacture cars -- but are not running into some "legacy costs" for more people than currently work at their auto plants.

Those who claim that our health care costs are high because of lawsuits should read the stats on the Pa Supreme Court Website. Not many lawsuits get brought anymore (because many states have made it very difficult) and those that go to trial usually lead to wins for doctors. Very few cases are wins over $1,000,000.

More of the Do Nothing Same
for the Republicans. When Liberals and Progressive Democrats were demanding higher fuel standards the Republicans were balking. When Democrats were demanding for better safety and better reliability the Republicans were balking. All the measures that would have made American cars more desirable that were asked by Liberal interest groups were demeaned by corporate interest driven Republicans. There are other issues like pensions and healthcare costs. But republicans will allow the big executives to keep their fancy plans, bonuses and parachutes while working to strip away the average workers pensions and healthcare.

Bailing out the Unions?????
As I replied to Dr Krauthammers article, same subject, I hate to see the Auto Workers in dire straits, but I CANNOT and WILL NOT support anything short of completely renegotiating UAW contracts--If Chapter 11 is required, SO BE IT!!!
My brother was part & parcel with the UAW until he passed on and regretfully my prediction of "the Union eventually putting U out of business" is coming to pass..SORRY for the workers NOT the UAW!!!

Hate to say it...
They and the unions have done it to themselves, I think that they need to be left to collapse under their own dysfunctional weight. Perhaps they can then be resurrected afterward in a new more efficient model. Nothing against union people, but unions have knee-capped the Big Three.

go megan.
I'm a fan of Megan McArdle. My favorite comment of hers that I thought was quite sage: "For the world to ever get better, things that don't work must fail." She gets it. The liberal illuminati might convince Bush to bail out the Big Three, but it's not going to improve the world in the future.

Tim Gets It!
Choke the snot out of the golden goose, no more eggs! Unions and the Big Three's abusive treatment of suppliers have mortally wounded the domestic auto industry. Much like the steel industry it needs to die and resurrect itself in a more efficient operation.

Good money after bad
Go ahead Washington, give'em a trillion, maybe two, maybe ten. Then what?.........Without a fundamental change (i.e. gut the unions) they'll be right back in the same spot in no time. Textbook definition of insanity, keep repeating the same action over, and over, and over, yet expect different results. Sorry Detroit, your wounds are self-inflicted. None on me.

Rhetoric vs Reality
The Detroit Free Press headlined today that Chrysler execs will get their bonuses this year. Obama, Pelosi & Reid will bail them, no doubt about it. They owe.

I grew up there, too, and am visiting. I drove into downtown along Gratiot Avenue last week. I almost cried. A billion couldn't begin to fix the city. If it's any indication of the state of the industry, forget it.

I have family & friends in this boat. I don't want to see it sink. But it seems inevitable. Maybe the ax is better than the slow rot of decay.

Hope & Change meets greed & grime!

ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL
Anyone who could not have seen what the unions were doing to the big three, must have been asleep for about the last twenty years. I would much rather buy American but I'm not going to buy an inferior product just so GM can overpay union workers.

My Toyota is much better than any GM or Ford I've ever driven, much less owned.

I don't make nearly as much as a big three CEO but I sure could see that they had big problems, and one of those was the cost of labor. Union workers have no idea the cost of health care. They just show their insurance card at the doctors office and more often than not the doctor rips off the insurer. The card holder has no idea and doesn't care, driving up health care costs for everyone.

Look where the union strong holds are, teachers, other gov't workers, and Detroit auto workers. Which are worth bragging on?

TYVM Barack !

By taking Gov. Jennifer Granholm to Washington(PLEASE!) Barack has already done more to help the Michigan economy than any previous president ever. Can't wait to see her go.

As for the UAW. Why should he help them? Rank and file generally vote somewhere close to 55-45 democratic yet 100% of the UAW resources go to elect democrats.MR. Bush has let them implode nicely these last 8 years. Payback for all the election year attacks?

UAW
Its time the rank and file woke up to reality. 50 somethings who could not spell UAW if you spotted them 2 letters ought not make $70k a year for not showing up to work to put hubcaps and fenders on cars - especially when they can't even seem to do that right.

$40/hr and more, pensions, company healthcare, huge salaries, paid vacations, profit sharing, 85% pay when laid off, and SENIORITY(you know when the oldest least capable least productive workers get the most money and are last laid off)
IS THAT REALITY IN THIS ECONOMY??




Granholm
Barack might have taken Granholm to DC and caused Michigan to breathe a sigh of relief, but let's not get beyond the fact that Granholm would be in a position to screw up the nation's economy.

The Solution
Two things to do immediately that will take care of this problem. First, Willie Nelson begins a series of concerts called Detroit Aid to raise money for the ailing big (ha ha) three. Second, we institute a windfall profits tax on the evil farmers that are getting rich now at the worlds expense. Use this money to help the automakers pay the UAW workers $78 an hour.

Food prices have gone throught the roof because of these blood suckers sod busters and it is only fair they get treated like the other evil industrialists that congress regularly blames all our troubles on.

I expect both these scenarios to unfold just after monkeys fly out of my butt.

Let the bankruptcys begin!
No doubt, the bankruptcy of GM, Ford, Chrysler would be devestating but what are the options? Throw money at failing businesses that are making unwanted products. Keep it going for a little longer?

The sooner we stop this type of nonsense of giving away money to help pay for outrageous pay and benefits to rank and file + the billions of dollars given to executives the sooner we will be back on the road to recovery.

If we are going to give away money let it be to start up new businesses that make products people want at a reasonable price.

Buggy whip time
If they "save" Detroit, maybe the liberals can move on and save the buggy whip makers. They missed on that one the last time. Perhaps they can save all the living relatives of long dead buggy whip workers and even form a new union.

All of the above.
Yes the fault is bad management.
Yes the fault is bad Unions.
Yes the fault is health & welfare costs.
Yes the fault is high taxes
Yes the fault is over regulation.

As I look over the above list. All but bad management is the Liberals fault.

TINSTAAFL
In 1976 i was writing software for a contractor at the Navy's fleet s/w center at Dam Neck VA. Within a few months, i realized none of what we were doing would ever be used. It was all obsolete junk. I went to the boss and warned him. He said, in effect, shutup, the customer is happy, we are expanding, grab the money. I went looking for another job, along with several of my savvy co-workers. After a year of keeping an eye out, i found THE opportunity and left to work at Johns Hopkins APL. A couple months after i left, the Navy replaced the dingleberry Admiral running the s/w effort at Dam Neck with another with an MSEE. He quickly evaluated what was going on and cut my former employer from over 200 employees to about 20. The moral? Beware a free lunch, oversized reward for undersized contribution. The timing is hard to predict, but the bill comes due.

Legacy costs
Contrary to what a lot of folks believe, the Big Three are capable of making vehicles that are every bit as good as anything any other country makes. The reason for their unprofitability is their legacy costs. Not only are they paying lavish pensions and health care benefits for more retirees than they have workers left, they have the arcane work rules imposed on them by the UAW that do not permit the adoption of things like Lean Manufacturing which would substantially reduce their actual manufacturing costs. Instead, they beat up their suppliers and force them to be better.

The Big Three are often saddled with inept management. But nothing has stood in the way of progress like the UAW. The labor union movement in this country was concieved in Socialism and has descended into gross corruption. While the workers still in the unions are over-compensated, the unions have cost this country millions of jobs in the steel industry, the auto industry and every other heavily unionized industry. Those jobs that are supposedly being shipped overseas are union jobs because that's where we are non-competitive. All the stewards and other non-productive types are the real culprits in losing jobs.

Unions only got a foothold in this country because of the grossly liberalized immigration policies of Wilson and the resulting flood of workers. When workers are too abundant, management will abuse them. Look at China today. Unions are an idea whose time never really was. The government has already co-opted any good they may have done with the NRLB, OSHA, etc. Unions need to go away.

Tim, Nunya
Yes, it was tough on Pittsburgh when American steel failed to meet foreign competition. Nobody bailed out Pittsburgh. But the youngsters quickly adapted, Carnegie Mellon and other schools started turning out computer people. In a generation, the town went from a knee-jerk pro-union blue collar conclave, to a place where all the prosperity is in high-tech. The successful members of the next generation want nothing to do with unions.

Go Stee'wers!!

ENGINEERING AND MAINTENANCE
It's no wonder our Country is going to topple and collapse. The politicians in Government who are in charge of designing, building and expanding America are totally ignorant of the basic concepts of engineering, construction and maintenance.
Ask any engineer, contractor or even a child playing with building blocks, if a foundation, or walls, or legs of any structure can hold up under the continual additional weight or height put at the top of a structure.
The initial base or foundation and infrastructure (walls or legs) have to be maintained. In order to grow and expand any structure, the base and infrastructure must first be supported.
Our Government of 'elite' so called 'highly' educated politicians have zero common sense or working knowledge of building anything tangible, being too busy building their intangible 'wealth and power' structure. They think adding more money (weight) at the top of unmaintained failing businesses, while adding more people and programs (height) to government will 'fix' everything.
Again, even the child with building blocks knows it's all going to come crashing down. And 'We, the People' are all going to be crushed beneath it.

"Bye..Bye.. Miss American Pie...
...Drove my Chevy(Toyota)to the levee, but the levee was dry...".

Are there national security implications for not having an automobile/truck industry?

I think there are.

Most Americans, including myself, traditionally wanted large vechicles and pickup trucks.

But we can't pretend it is the 1960s forever.

I still drive a big engine pickup..and I love it. But I know that whole culture and concept is coming to an end.

Bob Dylan long ago admonished us that the "times they are a changin".

Anyway, the auto industry did not force these behemoths upon us.

We wanted them.

I am no fan of the industry, mind you.

I think the industry should be saved, and government LOANS given with strict requirements mandating emphasis upon new propulsion technologies while continuing to manufacture more fuel efficient vehicles from traditional propulsion systems for the near term.

Probably ALL union contracts with the auto industry will have to be readjusted in this environment, including pension plans of retired employees.

I'm for only one bailout, the Mother
of all bailouts.

What is not mentioned ...
...in the article is the success of Japanese cars made in America,such as Toyota.They are prospering,but the workers are NOT UAW.

Solve the problem
Politicians feels the need to bailout the auto industry primarily to save votes, not to save jobs, or to save manufacturing capability. Americans have already voted on this issue via the declining stock prices. Americans are no longer willing to risk their own money on the auto industry, so why should our politicians risk our tax dollars? Let the auto industry take the necessary corrective measures and then they won't need handouts from anyone. No doubt, chapter 11 would address the UAW contracts and mismanagement issues. Perhaps then the auto industry just might make a viable comeback. Simply throwing tax dollars at the problem won't erase the problem.

Dittoes...
...Redsand!

SAVE THE INDUSTRIOUS
NOT THE INDUSTRY.
If our Government is using the American taxpayers money, then the 'bank' of the American people should be the 'buyers' and 'owners' of the companies our money is being used for, rather than being used as a 'lending' institution.
And 'We the People' would have these companies INDUSTRIOUS employees run their businesses instead of the IDUSTRIES, unindustrious management and unions who have 'run' them into the ground.

Nam65-66 & redsand: Between both posts..

you've pretty much NAILED the entire ISSUE and the SOLUTION!


The Unions Are Also A Relic Of The Past
We need to draw the line somewhere, we can't afford to bail out every Tom, Dick and Harry.
The UAW endorsed Barry and expects him to do right by them, I'd like to see the Detroit 3 file for bankruptcy under chapter 11 protection so they have a chance to reorganise.
Which would put the Unions in a more bargainable position, If it was up to me the Detroit 3 would fail and where would the Unions be?
There are other car companies in this country who are non-Union who do reasonably well for themselves, as you can tell I'm viciously anti-Union, go ahead say it DUH! they've ruined this country and should have gone away back in the late seventies.
But, you watch Barry is going to bail these fockers out, it's all part of his Joe the plumber strategy. And the UAW once bailed out, will continue to set their sights on the profitable non-Union Indian Casino Industry next, they've already strong armed the Mashantucket Pequot Tribe who own Foxwoods Resort & Casino here in Connecticut into talks on behalf of Dealers who live way, way beyond their means.
That's why Unions exist to placate and represent folks who live way beyond there means, it's the new American Dream.

Bankruptcy
I don't think having them seek for bankruptcy is a good idea, because they might just decide to liquidate all assets and close doors. There would be zero benefit from that.

It's also bad because we are losing any real manufacturing ability, and are reliant more and more on imports. If God forbid we went to war with China, they could cripple us just by seizing all the manufacturing capabilty we purchase for american products.

FeargalX.....
Balderdash!

Unions were once necessary to break the cycle of worker abuse. No more, though.

Like the patient who needs pain pills after an operation or terrible accident. They are needed on a temporary basis, just like unions were. But when the patient becomes addicted and can find doctors who will prescribe larger amounts of more potent pills, or can buy them on the black market, it is time for them to kick the habit.

Sweepers making $40 an hour is stupid! When union leaders realized they had the auto manufacturers (coal, steel, etc) by the short hairs, they began to squeeze more and more from them to consolidate their own personal power.

Politicians cater to unions for votes to consolidate their own personal power.

Let the auto companies sink! There is a market for well made autos as proven by Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc. When efficient companies who will not unionize (like foreign manufacturers with plants in the U.S.) they will succeed and prosper. Good for everyone. Except union bosses, and that's a good thing!

BIGbelly: Good point."Detroit 3 file for

bankruptcy under chapter 11 protection so they have a chance to reorganise."

And a NEW BUSINESS PLAN, excluding unions!!! Their current business model doesn't seem to have worked.

The UAW is a completely different story! You're right, the unions are expecting their pound of flesh! And since Marxist Obama is all in favor of "CardCheck" the union members will be caught in the middle.

Too Much Union Talk
Yes, part of the problem is the cost of the workers - legacy costs granted by the people who run the Big 3. Another part is the engineering and administration of the Big 3. Hundreds of 2007, and perhaps some 2006 new cars still on sales lots at the time 2008s are available? That sure makes a lot of sense and lots of costs. Name the top ten autos in the US - because of the durability and fewer errors. The Big 3 place any there? Perhaps not and it must be the unions' fault. The Big 3 have been unable to reverse engineer the Toyota and Honda. And that is not union!

THE 'ENGINE' LIGHT' IS ON
What should a car owner do when the 'engine light' comes on? How bout going to a car mechanic, have the problem diagnosed, and REPLACE the 'faulty' part or parts.
Oh, but not the CAR INDUSTRY--(or how many other businesses thus far), when their 'engine lights' go on, they take their 'broken down' business vehicles to the Government to simply add more parts (taxpayer money) instead of relacing any or all 'failed' parts.
And the Government thinks Americans aren't smart enough to know those 'vehicles' still aren't going to run?

Troubling
I believe that keeping the US Auto industry and its jobs is a worth while endeavor. But only if it works and we have no evidence that this infusion of money will do anything other than keep the payrolls flowing for incompetent executives and workers for a little longer.

Yes, give the money. But also kick out the senior management and resplace them with a reciever who has broad powers to renegotiate union contracts and to deirect the future efforts of the companies. After a time when they have been stabilized the companies can be recapitalied with common stock. Workers keep this jobs (Ableit at a lower rate of pay and benefit and the US keep the industry.)

Just giving money to the same incompetent people who ran their companies into the ground is foolish.





hmmmm
NO bailout, period. let them go bankrupt. it is there own fault.

who does the UAW usually support in elections. Hmm the democrat party who screws them. Sounds funny to me.

And yes i am a free trader. let them compete with the world.

To hell with them . . .
Let the Big 3 DIE. They were the first in line for the Corporate Social Responsibility Movement. They SHOULD have been responsible to to the profit motive. Die and go to hell, for trying to steal yet more of your neighbors' tax money. And let your union workers eat manure --too bad, so sad out of work, but! You had laws making it impossible to compete. Enjoy Christmas.

Dancing "Scrooge" Bear.

No Detroit Bailout!
The Detroit carmakers need to go through reorganization as a part of bankruptcy. American taxpayers should not be forced to throw money at the horrible decisions by union bosses, because taxpayers will be called on to feed the habit over and over again.

Liberals are trying to take away the secret ballot from union members so that they can control well run car manufacturers outside of Detroit in states like Tennessee and reduce their effectiveness so that they appear more and more like the Detroit three so that taxpayers can be tapped again and again to pay for liberal foolishness.


JMO51
Excellent ideas, but probably impractical. I doubt any court appointed receiver in the United States, even one appointed by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and blessed by the Archangel Michael himself could do what you envision. Not that he or she wouldn't try, but the politics of big business and of the union collide in full force in what you call for, and the courts don't have the power ultimately to overwhelm that kind of corrupting money and influence.

Once upon a time the South was utterly dependent on cotton and New England on whaling. Once upon a time Michigan, Pennsylvania and Ohio were dependent on the auto industry. All passed or are passing into history. Much of Detroit has reverted to a feral state; ultimately it will be the Department of Agriculture to which Michiganers look for government assistance.

You All Are Just Mean
How are the politicians supposed to increase their control of American industry if they let the automakers succumb to the will of the market? Wasting tax dollars in the pursuit of power is what all politicians do. Get with the program!

RETIREMENT SAVINGS
If my husband and I (both retired) at the height of our careers made less than $25.00 an hour, saved enough to retire on, having raised two sons, financed their higher education and have always lived in a comfortable home as well as having a vacation cottage--then the 'younger' auto workers, because of their youth can change careers and the 'older' auto workers should have been able to save enough to retire on since they certainly made more with better benefits than me and my husband.
Why should our money, our 'tax dollars' save anyone who didn't 'plan or save' as we did?
Are we now a Nation of people who never have to face or deal with the consequences of mistakes or poor judgement, or learn anything from them?
Guess so.

An analogy
In the late 1990's the entire American steel industry was teetering on bankruptcy. The second largest company, Bethlehem Steel, was where I worked at the time. Our biggest customer was General Motors. They squeezed our balls for the lowest steel price. There was no mercy... they threatened to buy foreign steel if we couldn't meet the foreign price. Not wanting to lose market share, Bethlehem and GM's other domestic steel suppliers cannabalized one another, dropping prices below their cost of production. This was of course unsustainable, and within five years Bethlehem and about 30 other American steel companies went bankrupt. There was no government bailout for big steel and there shouldn't be any bailout for General Motors. The chickens have come home to roost for GM and it really makes me feel good. In fact I just had another mini orgasm thinking about GM going belly-up.

And, by the way...
those steel plants are still there (under different names and smarter management) and they're making good profits. The workers are still there (with renegotiated contracts) and they're making good wages.

More of the same
This is not about Liberal, Conservative or whatever other label you use. This is pure and simple VERY BAD MANAGEMENT. Look at Toyota it started building Hybrids over 10 years ago; astutely observing that the future of just gasoline driven cars was starting to fade. Look at Honda, they currently have a Natural Gas Civic for under $25000. Detroit 3 are like a very bad football team --- Inept Owners (Board of Directors), poor Coaching (The CEO, CFO, COO etc), inadequate players (Union workers, middle management, etc); and above all no spectators (NO BUYERS FOR DETROIT 3 CARS). Just like you would not keep pumping money into the bad football team no amount of money pumped into Detroit 3 will help.

Combine all Detroit 3 into one company, the government should force everyone to re-write all the contracts, get an innovative & efficient manager like Iacocca and you will get investors coming up with the money. No need for goverment bailouts.

I agree with Curt

Obama has promised to create jobs. How can he begin by losing millions of them? In the interests of national security, potential tank, ship and plane makers need to stay viable. A bailout of the Big3 makes more sense to me than giving money to a few bankers. It happened in the 80s with Chrysler and Iacocca paid every penny back.

The unions are going to have to suck it in and do some belt tightening or give it up to the currently illegal aliens who would love to take these jobs at half the price, without benefits. How about making Detroit a sanctuary city?

For the record, Toyota built a car plant in San Antonio to turn out only one vehicle model...the humongous V-8 Tundra pickup. The gas spike forced them to shut down the production lines last summer. They kept the employees on and recently restarted one line, but I imagine they regret their timing. So Detroit doesn't have a monopoly on mistakes.


Think about it
People still buy cars. The new Big Three will be, if not already are Toyota, Honda, and Nissan or maybe Subaru. All have large manufacturing plants in the US now. None of them are union, but there is more to that than meets the eye. In his autobiography, Lee Iaccoca related that management bonuses were tied to production, which a strike would lower, leading management to accept unfavorable terms in labor contracts in order to protect their own bonuses. Without serious competition from foreigners at the time, labor and management walked hand in hand down the road to perdition.
Bailouts of any industry are pernicious because they reward failure and punsih success. It's like trying to housebreak a puppy by smacking him when he poops outside and giving him a treat when he poops in the house. Where do you think you will find the next pile of poop?

Chapter 11
Reorganize the companies with the help of the courts. The UAW was complicit in the destruction of the Big Three so they should be willing to help hammer out a reorganization plan. It would appear that any government bailout is simply a stop gap measure.

They're all to blame
Yeah, the Big 3 had terrible management; focused on short term profits and financial shennanigans instead of designing quality cars.

But the real culprit has been labor costs. No matter how brilliant management is, if your costs are exponentially higher than the competition, you don't have a chance.

The only option is Chapter 13; let them go through the process, get better management in place, and renegotiate those insane labor contracts. The bailout money is better used to extend unemployment insurance to effected workers and to pay for them to retrain/school for other jobs.

Any bailout that leaves the status quo intact will only be a down payment; The Big 3 hogs will be back to the trough for another bailout in no time.

Failure thy Name is Union
Management in Union friendly states are not inept they are playing against a stacked deck. My state structure is much like Michigan with all the laws and politicians favoring the Unions. The evidence lies in the public sector where Teacher’s, Fire, and Police unions are bankrupting municipalities and cities. The redeeming feature in the private sector is the Unions eventually kill the Goose laying the golden eggs, i.e. the Big Three. I have yet to see what happens to a state or big city that the Unions strangle but I bet I will in the next four years.

Tribute to Henny Youngman
Take my governor,please!

my 2 cents
If we're going to get out of this mess we CAN'T keep propping up businesses that don't work any more.

Day of the Moron
Some time ago I was debating some brain-dead leftist moron about labor unions. Several others joined in that conversation, one of them was a very bright individual going by the handle "Eon". He/She pointed me in the direction of a free E-book by H.Beam Piper, it's called "Day of the Moron". This e-book explains what labor unions really are. I read the book and will forever rate H.Beam Piper as one of the most insightful authors around.

Labor unions are a socialist instrument designed specifically to promote mediocrity, protect the inept and worthless, and in general deliver sub-standard products. The UAW has cut the throats of it's employers and the big 3 need to go chapter 11. The time for unions has passed, they are too expensive, and in light of todays labor laws, mostly irrelevant. I would certainly hope that if the Big 3 survive in any fashion that they re-organize without a union. In fact a court ordered condition of their new business plans should include "no unions".

That brings me to the point of labor unions in the federal government. How completely perverse that the servants of free Americans would organize with a union. Considering the impact labor unions have on politics and what labor unions real functions are, isn't there a significant conflict of interest. Possibly an appearance of impropriety? Is it not a fact that union members invariably vote in the unions best interests?

Our Day of the Moron is upon us, we have a government whose incompetence now spans almost 100 years. The results of which are now coming home to roost. Government should never be involved in the lives of people or the conduct of business. All our government does is screw it up. The Big 3s day of the moron has arrived as well. No Bailout for the Big 3!

DON'T TREAD ON ME!


Hawkeye58, you wrote...
"In the interests of national security, potential tank, ship and plane makers need to stay viable."

This is EXACTLY the same argument Big Steel was making in the late 1990's. It was baloney then and it's baloney now.

If we had bailed out the US television
business twenty five years ago like many union members and other interest groups suggested, does anyone think that would have made the world better? If the competition has beaten you on every count, you have to admit that the process you are trying to employ needs to be revamped. The US has a procedure to bring costs back into alignment and redirect capital and labor, it is called Chapter 11 bankrupcy. It is the Detroit Threes only real chance. Don't be misled by the democratic congress trying to spin economics. As most of us are pretty aware it is their complete lack of understanding of business or economics that has led to much of the current mess we all are in.

One question for the Big 3
For the genuises running the Big 3 I have one question. Why can't you run your business like Toyota? Or Honda? Or Nissan?
Forcing the taxpayer to subsidize failure is like religion with no hell (what's the incentive to do good?)

Why do you think they are going to Washington for a "loan" if they really believed in their future? Because nobody in the private sector is stupid enough to lend them the money.

The Big 3 should be allowed to crash and burn, and I assure you something much better will emerge from the ashes.

Hawkeye58
The auto market is and has been for decades very fickle. When gas prices are reasonable, the public demands land yachts as big as Montana, but when gas prices peak, the demand vanishes almost instantly. It happened in the late 70's, mid 80's and now. Once buyers see that oil prices have fallen from the statospheric levels of last summer, the demand for vehicles will return to higher numbers. That's why business and the economy are described as being cyclical.

Barone and others now barking!
Yes, any not so bright questions all this present babylonic confusion in Washington, and yet the question: Where were you all over several decades as our own Federal Government was fully engaged in building up to this present
babylonic disaster as more and more Socialistic/Communinstic programs, our politicians in Washington were imposing upon the American people, without ever submitting a single one for a vote by the taxpayers?

So, now here comes Mr. Barone, with an article, to in essence show his own not so brightness or so it seems? The horse is fully out of the barn and lying somewhere old and daying, in a figure of speech. America has fully finished burrying Capitalism and America needs something like a new emancipation from its present self and once again, follow the orders of the Founding Fathers and let the people run America, and not a corrupt Socialistic/Communistic bunch, barricaded in Washingon D.C.,

Yes, it is high time that America also gets its big and dirt nose out of claiming to be the new God for the world.

Short-sighted conservatives
It isn't just the auto companies and their workers that will be hit if the companies go under. Consider their suppliers--hundreds of companies of all sizes, employing still more people. Visualize the effect of a defunct auto company as looking like the special effects in one of those movies where an asteroid hits the earth. There's a blast wave, followed by a mega tsunami, both of which extend far beyond the impact crater. Millions of employees of hundreds of companies are hit when a big manufacturing company goes down.

The Detroit companies haven't been competitive for years--agreed--but I love how conservatives don't have any problem sacrificing the well-being of auto workers (who are all, we are told, lazy, shiftless scum because they belong to unions) on the altar of the free market ideology. What the existence of companies "too big to fail" shows is that, left to its own internal processes, a free market economy leads to gigantic firms that require government support. Free market theory is about a fantasy world of small businesses; the real capitalist economy is about huge companies. Get a clue.

Norm...
Good post. Why are municipal and Postal workers organized? It is a huge conflict of interest. The municipal employee pension plans in New York and New Jersey are gradually bankrupting both of those states. However, they are big voting blocks and they usually vote with the Democrats.

This has been done before

Didn't Italy, France, and England all try to nationalize their auto industries?

Weren't they all failures? Lousy cars that no one wanted to buy?



USA: Made In China, Designed In India.
Might as well not delay the inevitable, as both China and India are poised to enter the US vehicle markets with less expensive vehicles. It wouldn't surprise me to see WalMart auto dealerships spring up across the country, sometime in the next decade, selling them to young people and the ever increasing numbers of financially struggling US consumers and their families. That is how the Japanese automakers got a market foothold in the US back in the early 70s.

If the US government is not going to bail out the domestic automakers, what makes people think that the remains of those so-called relics will be resurrected? Michigan will for the most part, likely become the equivalent of a third world country, and should no longer be treated as a donor state.

I have never been employed by any automaker directly, but I must say that I will certainly enjoy watching the Japanese and Koreans, who do a far better job of protecting their industries that the US does, get their comeuppance, and eventually suffer the same fate as the Big 3 "relics" will.




What about government
involvement in the business of designing and selling cars? We could see this coming as the democrats stood in the way of domestic drilling, laughed at high gas prices because it allowed them to believe s their goal of being off oil in 10 years was really possible.. Ruin the economy? No matter, the cause is good.

Laws to mandate gas millage even when it was costly and almost impossible to do in the time limits set were also part of the game plan. Again, no matter, democrats knew the cause was good in forcing Americans to drive the cars congress wanted in order to fight the hoax of global warming. (Note, no temperature change in 7 years and the ice is back in the artic.)(An inch of snow is forcast in Michigan this weekend.)

Interesting isn't it how the left is declaring capitalism dead but it is congresses involvement in the free market which has sent us to where we are. (Mortgage anyone even if you can't pay for it?)

How bad do they want to keep their jobs.
Last week I heard a retired union worker make a profoundly bold statement. He suggested that all auto union workers & executives GO WITHOUT PAY/BENEFITS for one pay period. That would inject the needed cash to keep them afloat. Also, they must concentrate on re-vamping their products for efficiency, and exploring new products to market.

It may seem harsh (don't know if I could do it), but that could allow them to keep their jobs and give them a vested interest in their future success.


auto bailout nooooo!
That is why we should not bail them out as they knew this would happen again. The automakers should have been looking to the future by making smaller cars, not waiting til it is too late to save themselves.

They could have been looking for alternative fuel autos and smaller ones all along but no, the people want big cars so we have to make them, now they are paying and expect us to bail them out, I say noooo, let them go into bankruptcy and restructure.

penny

Health care ??
Health care is a commodity, just like anything else.
When someone else is paying for it, you use a lot. Pay for it yourself, and you use it ONLY when needed.
Healthcare has gone up in price (way over inflation) because the government is involved in it.
Remember, Government= no competition
Government = no profit
Government = inefficiency

Make our Federal government do ONLY WHAT THE CONSTITUTION ALLOWS, and we will have peace and prosperity

Remember also, polititians are like diapers.
They need to be changed often, and for the same reason.

Support the Fair Tax

Free market
Many of the airlines have gone through bankruptcy reorganization and have continued to survive, and may actually see light at the end of the tunnel with oil prices falling. The Big 3 can do the same.

The plants, equipment, and skilled labor (as opposed to unskilled workers making $50, $60, or $70 an hour) with value will be re-employed by a revitalized Big 3 or their successors. Ownership may change and unions may have to get real or disappear.

Declare bankruptcy. Reorganize. Force union concessions. Save what is good and get rid of the bad. Build quality products that people actually want and see if the market rewards you.

Unions
Unions, like everything else, has had it good and its bad. It is my view that the unions with the help of government allowed the wages and "fringe" benefits to become so large as to make it impossible the big three to compete with companies originating in Japan. Now, as with the banks, those who caused the trouble are the ones in charge of correcting them-the Democrats.
How logical and how likely to fail.
Donald W. Bales

Scrap Iron...
...for President!

Great post. I write my Congressmen frequently with the same message. Maybe if enough of us say it they will finally listen.

The threat of bankruptcy
will force the UAW and management to renegotiate contracts just as it has in the past in the airline industry. The hope for a bailout by the federal government will allow the UAW to sit on their hands and wait. If UAW members and management are unwilling to put their own money, work rules, and benefits on the line, why should the American people and their representatives (legislative and executive) put tax dollars on the line. Union members can negotiate some of their benefits, work rules, and pay for a stake in the company and representation on the board of directors. Bankruptcy might still occur as it did at TWA but profitability may also occur as it has at Continental Airlines. The other choice is bankruptcy and reorganization. That does not necessarily mean a shut down of operations. Many companies have managed to achieve success after coming out of bankruptcy. Bailout with tax dollars must not be an option.

Detroit
JOBS JOBS JOBS - Loans Loans Loans - Real Estate Real Estate Real Estate -These are the big 3.
My opinion of course only. And since opinions are like behinds, everyone has one. Well, this is mine. These three elements are at the crux of our problems. Sure up the real estate market with a possible freeze on foreclosures. Kill the ARMS, and Redo the loans. When lenders foreclose or do a short sale, they take a big big loss. So if they reorganize most loans, and the govt. maybe shares the lose 50/50, everyone gains more.
JOBS can be created by starting the better car world here in America. Build a better box, but create a transition from what we have to where we need to be. Since the banks are crying, FORCE(yes I know) them to create loans with the money loaned them (LOANED) - Err on the side of capitalism. These 3 things would impact the middle class more than the top. But remember, the top provides the jobs so this is a real tap-dance going on in our world.
Gammy Sparkles

To WDE
ME ???
President ???

Uh, no.Couldn't stand the scrutiny.
I would be a welcome advisor, so long as I can stay in Texas. I have never taken anything from the government, except for a brief time when I hauled mail from Houston to the valley and back for two weeks.

The Unions are a relic of the past
It has been my observation that unions, who dictate who does what job and at what pace and pay are the entities that should be revised or eliminated. Unions encourage neither efficiency, economy or work ethic. They were needed years ago when our forefathers were simpler people with no voice. Todays workers are a much more vociferous group with more legal recourse. GM's Saturn division showed how a union could operate simpler. The old union establishment is just too set and used to the fat incomes they derive off the backs of their workers who will suffer in the long run.

To WDE
When you write your representative, make sure they know their JOB is on the line.
Get your friend to do the same.
I, unfortunately do not have that option. My rep runs unopposed. TX CD 9 Check it out

only Don Juan
Most on here have reasonable arguments whether they be left or right. Only one stands out as a person who believes the government really needs a hand in this. Socialized health care is too expensive. As I told my kids, I can't afford the "free" health care from the government.

We in America are not ready for it either. We are used to excellent service provided quickly. Socialized medicine will not only not provide you with excellent service, but it will not provide it quickly. Good luck if time is of the essence. AND get ready for high taxes that will be hidden everywhere!

ANYTHING the government gets involved in becomes an unholy mess no matter who is in power. I have long said the government is King Midas in reverse!

negotiate
In the early eighties,many unions had to negotiate wages and because of the economy they were forced to take a cut in pay.No one was harmed seriously by those cuts,but it saved their jobs.Auto workers should do the same.The companies want universal health care to get rid of the health costs of its workers.

Dots
Amid the usual reich-wing union bashing
is the usual inability of you people to connect the dots: health care costs. Single-payer, national health insurance will solve a large part of what is dragging down the American economy. The country is no longer house-call Father Knows Best America. Yes health care may not be as good as in the good 'ole days but wake up and smell the coffee. The emergency room should not be the primary care provider.

And amid all the nonsense, no mention yet of the recent WSJ report indicating that all those poor over-taxed American companies pay about half the taxes they should be. A little myth-busting in the morning is a beautiful thing.

But back to the trees, Goopers! Work on walking upright and do some more reading. About labor history. For example. Why children no longer work the assembly line. Why there are safer work-places. Brought to you by UNIONS!

I would suggest that ....
there are no innocent parties in this situation and one guilty party, the United States.
The government disrupts business or acts as an agent of business by all nature of legislation that is in the final analysis counter-productive.
The government has not supported meaningful balanced currency but uses inflationary policies to maneuver political advantage.
The government isn't for free trade, it supports open markets, giving away the store.
The government operates under the assumption that it is entitled to the property and earnings of others.
The government is operated by tyrants who are incapable of doing anything meaninful for a livlihood and are completely dependant on the baseness of the electorate to maintain their offices.
Stop with the obfuscation, things are just that simple.
Why aren't the criminals who operated Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac ever questioned by the MSM. Why isn't GWB directing the attorney general to investigate this matter whether the time is short or not?
I suspect that the empowered see an advantage to the direction affairs are moving in. Never, ever trust a polititian. They are a villainous
lot who do their evil by proxy as they are more often than not also craven cowards.

Never ends
Didn't we bail out the airline industry to the tune of $15 billion after 9/11?

And we've all seen how THEY'VE gotten their act together and made our lives hunky-dory.

Of course, $15 billion seems like small change now.


to Scrap Iron
My representative is always unopposed. He wins by winning the Republican primary every two years.

Normally, our Senators are solidly Republican too, except this year Saxby Chambliss is in a runoff.

Every time I call or write any elected official, I remind them they work for me and their job - my vote - is on the line. I also try to give suggestions and not just complain.

Our Founding Fathers would roll over if they saw what our government had become.

Why the Uproar
America began the move, in ernest, toward socialized medicine with the invention of MHO's.

MHO's dramatically increased the cost of medical care (ever go into the hospital and then find your bill loaded with $1.00 aspirins and doctors' consultations - doctors you never saw?). MHO's forced you to select a "primary care" doctor, limited hospital stay, and forced you to "jump-through-hoops" to see a specialist or to get approval BEFORE getting specialized medical treatment.

HEY, FOLKS! MHO IS SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!

Plus, your co-pays keep going up-&-up - unless you have purchased additional medical insurance that pays the "difference".

GM Execs Get Pay Hikes Despite Record
'07 Loss

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=125948

"DETROIT — General Motors, which last year posted a record loss of $38.7 billion, has rewarded its top executives with lavish compensation packages.

CEO Rick Wagoner had his base salary for 2008 restored to $2.2 million, the same level as in 2006, while President Fritz Henderson got a raise to $1.8 million and Vice Chairman Bob Lutz was bumped to $1.75 million.

Like many other U.S. companies, GM also compensates its executives with stock options and other incentives that inflate their total pay. Generally, the compensation is paid out over a period of several years.

The Associated Press calculated Wagoner's total compensation in 2007 was worth $15.7 million, up from $9.6 million in 2006. Automotive News calculated Henderson's 2007 package at $7.6 million and Lutz's package at $6.9 million."

Hey - I really feel sorry for these guys. You folks who are against giving these people a little tax money are really stingy!! What with Christmas and all coming up...

The Usual Suspects
Some here like to take shots at and blame the unions as the reason they should not get a bailout. And generally, I agree that ANY government bailout is questionable, at best.

But I'm wondering if all the big mouths yapping about the "overpaid" union workers did the same about the Wall Street white shirts who got far, far more of our tax dollars than the Autoworkers or any union could ever hope to get?

Even the most derelict auto worker probably did something to produce a product. And many if not most of them did have a good work ethic.

Can you say the same about the bankers and lawyers and CEO's and bean counters and paper pushers who have recently sent our nation to the verge of economic collapse? These are probably the very least productive people in our economic segment.

Yet they have set up the system so that they can earn/steal million dollr perks and bonuses and even apckages that pay them tens of millions when they fail or are fired!

And they did all this without ever having a union. Go figure.

So they go bankrupt.

What do all the hand wringers believe? That bankruptcy means a giant bulldozer comes along and pushes all the bankrupt company assets into a landfill?

Bankruptcy forces a review of liabilities of the company, decides what can be paid off and puts the remaining assets in the hands of better stewards. If there is still a place in the market for the product, this re-configured company or a new one will move in to fill that need. If not, then the end was inevitable anyway.

The government is just pandering with these bailouts. The Federal promises pain reduction, but it never mentions that the price for that is the disease must go untreated.

Sure the auto industry implosion is going to hurt. A lot. But that is far better than enabling and propping up people and institutions that are bleeding cash to the tune of 1 billion dollars a month.

Novalis
You are one of the unreasonable ones because you immediately resort to name-calling and childishness.

Unions have their place, but extorting more and more and more from employers seems to have taken the place of why they were formed. I know, for I belong to a union. Resting on the laurels of the past is not how reasonable people argue.

Big Three
My husband retired from Ford's 5yrs.ago on a disability.His knees'are gone,because of all the years fixing the problems.
I am greatful for the money and extras. I agree that the uaw is at fault but so is the gov't. It was all the congressmen who wanted higher CAFE standards, so more people could be injured or killed in an accident in a lighter steel car.
American cars had more restrictions on them and when trying to sell oversees, those countries had their restrictions. You can't sell a car to China, it must be built there, so the company builds a plant in China to sell cars.
How about catilisct converters? Were they truly necessary? So many restrictions. Even Calif has them. Don't always think a foreign car is better. Their govt's are socialists and give them an advantage over US made cars.

Detroit reminds me ...
Be careful what you ask for 'cause you just might get it.

The original premise of union was GOOD! Protect workers from unscrupulous employers.

Sounds simple, and unions did a tremendous amount of good by protecting jobs, gaining "reasonable" health care, establishing a "living wage", curtailing individual and group abuse, etc.

But then, unions became so powerful that they began asking for the moon and stars - and they are dang close to having 'em.

The problem is union workers continue to ask for more and more while the companies make less and less. The benefits haved become unsustainable!

A bailout will NOT resolve the CAUSE of the Big Three crisis.

Mr. Barone
I am a 36 year old,former Conservative who voted for Mr. Obama! I feel in no way disaffected from his philosophy of governance,in fact I am encouraged. You and others like you are wasting precious time trying to divide President-Elect Obama's supporter. It will not happen in your lifetime. Your time could be better used, trying to resurrect the Republican Party and other "Relics". Stop "Whining" and be productive. Please, Sir...

Even the NYT and WSJ
have articles saying "don't do it". The history of the unions and the management is too much for them to take anymore.

Do all of you remember when the unions had gotten so many perks they were looking around for other perks for which to ask. That's when they negotiated for and won....free legal services. ENOUGH!!!!!

you wonder?
you wonder? it is a fundamental principle of the market that if you wont more of something you pay for it. in this case we will be paying for more bad decisions, extravagant benefits and economic erosion. welcome to the obama years

So...how did that Lehman thing work out?
If the economy were in half-decent shape, I would let GM go bankrupt and reorganize.

HOWEVER, with the economy a mess, this could have ripple effects like the Lehman failure. GM and Chrysler wouldn't survive, Ford would be on the brink, the stock market would lose at least another thousand or so pts, unemployment would spike higher, consumer spending would disappear, and there'd probably be another gigantic bailout.

Just a guess tho ... -_-

Let the Big Three call the relic
known as the American Automobile Association for roadside assistance. If the Big Three becomes the Not So Big Two or One, so be it.

"Saving Detroit means saving it from bankruptcy. As we have seen with the airlines, bankruptcy can allow operations to continue while helping shed fatally unsupportable obligations. For Detroit, this means release from ruinous wage deals with their astronomical benefits (the hourly cost of a Big Three worker: $73; of an American worker for Toyota: $48), massive pension obligations, and unworkable work rules such as “job banks,” a euphemism for paying vast numbers of employees not to work."

"The point of the Democratic bailout is to protect the unions by preventing this kind of restructuring. Which will guarantee the continued failure of these companies, but now they will burn tens of billions of taxpayer dollars. It’s the ultimate in lemon socialism."
~Charles Krauthammer, NRO

Economic Control
Why is it that people want to think that the economy can be managed by politicians and bureaucrats?

If Obama and company want to just print money to make it worth less to show that they want to let all pay for the useless Big Three automakers, and also let alternative companies (and all others) also be paid with more of the same kind of cash; they have the votes to do it!

No doubt they will also be willing to expand the bureaucracy to manage all business and create all jobs from the safe anal perspective. That is the only one that shows what has been working, not what may work for the future.

Of course, we can get out of the global economy and have even less and no place to sell what we can make competitively.

When that fails...well we will find another new leader?

Some of you have it right, others, well.
There are no innocent parties here. The unions, management, and the government are all to blame in various proportions. A bailout is a temporary bandage but won't fix the underlying problems. The best thing that can happen is for them to immediately start cutting costs and if they have to declare bankruptcy, it will be Chapter 11, not 13. There will be no immediate shutdown. Things will go on just as they have while a reorganization plan is worked out.

Who loses? Well, shareholders obviously #1. Some people will lose jobs. Some people will have their benefits and salaries cut. This is the way of things. It's unfortunate, but that's how it goes.

But for those of you who think nationalized, single-payer health care, reduced management salaries, government bailouts, etc etc are the answer(s), you are all sadly mistaken.

There's not a single country in the world that has as good a health care system as we have in the US. Is ours perfect? Not by a long shot. But you don't kill the person to cure the disease. There's not a single other country that has the options, the research, the developments, etc., that we have, and it's because they have single-payer government health care and we don't.

To "Killer", there are really very few "former conservatives" in this country. No true conservative would ever vote for Obama and his socialist policies. They are the antithesis of what a conservative stands for. If you are disillusioned with conservatism because of things that Bush has done, don't be. Bush is hardly a conservative, at least not in the small government sense. As one pundit put it, Bush is Tony Blair with a Ranch. Liberalism as it exists today within the democratic party, will never be the right answer. Classical liberalism, which really is the heart of the conservative movement, is the only workable philosphy.

No More Bailouts
I’ve been against all these bailout because my family and I have played by the rule. We purchased a nice home that we could afford; we got a mortgage that’s a little high so we renegotiated to lower the monthly payments. I don’t feel because I played by the rules that I should have to also pay those who did not. I am sorry they’ve been foreclosed on and I’m sorry they bit off more then they could chew. Take it as a lesson learned and move on. I don’t want to pay my mortgage and theirs.

Another thing about all this is we don’t know who these foreclosurer’s are? If I am to believe what I’m hearing on other conservative blogs those that foreclosed are not the poor or minorities. They are stock brokers, lawyers, even doctors who purchased a home they could not afford, but they’re financial circumstances changed that made it worse. They used their credit cards as a way to eliminate their debts, and all it did was to push them farther into it. They added other materialistic things believing they would make them happy and they didn’t. Now, they are so far in personal debt they are asking for a handout. A long with that handout will they learn from their mistakes? Will our government provide them the tools to learn financial responsibility? Since it’s coming from the liberal democratic I’ll make a wild assumption the answer is no. Those are the reasons I’m not for the bailout.

The democrats answer is to always throw money at problems, but if you don’t address the problem, dissect how they got to that point and provide them with the tools necessary to learn from their errors and to make them understand personal responsibility. Throwing more money after bad won’t solve any of our problems. With the democrats in control of Congress and the White House they want these people to continue this financial irresponsibility they are the bread and butter of their existence.


To WDE
You say Saxby runs unopposed by winning his primary. My district TX CD9 has not had a republican on the ballot in eight years.
Both the RNC and Texas RC will not assist in any way a republican in CD9.

I believe your rep (Chambliss) is good and honorable. He must be. He supports the Fair Tax

fear woman in pa
How many times did you vote for NObama?? 10....12? You are SINGLEMINDED in blaming the republicans for EVERTYHING You still have a severe case of BDS. The blame for this rests COMPLETELY with the unions. The economic blackmail tactics of the unions is legendary AND has been in effect during BOTH democrats and republicans. If you insist on blaming government, It WILL apply to BOTH sides of the aisle. Look at what NObama is going to do for the u nions regarding a "private vote". You are absolutely, totally, and completely WRONG to blame any one political party. Such a FOOL

Here Here
Mr. Barone:

I, too, am a Michigan native and am saddened every time I go back and see the decline of that once-great state. But I also know that the worst parts of Michigan are the parts governed and managed by liberals. The West side of the state, which is largely conservative, is more economically diverse and less susceptible to the rise and fall of the auto industry.

I am old enough to remember previous recessions and previous bailouts (like Chrysler in the late 70's) At that time I did the "patriotic" thing (for Michigan) and bought a Chrysler. I spent the next four years realizing WHY Chrysler was in financial trouble and should have been allowed to die. The car was junk, they knew it was junk and they did nothing to improve.

Nothing has changed. Mercedes sold Chrysler back because they were destroying the Mercedes brand. The UAW on the other unions have suffocated the car companies. There should be no bailout. They should be allowed to declare bankruptcy, restructure without the union contracts and come back (or not) stronger companies that are more able to compete.

You know, it is so ironic that the Dems bemoan the fact that so many American companies are moving their manufacturing plants out of the U.S. - but then they turn around and pass laws to make the unions STRONGER! The unions are THE PROBLEM!!! Time for them to go!

Economics 101
1. Make cars that people want to buy.

2. Sell the cars at prices people are willing to pay, which must be higher than the all-inclusive production costs of the cars.

3. Re-invest the profits in new plants and equipment, thus creating new jobs and benefits.

The Big 3 management teams, the unions and the Congress cannot understand these 3 simple rules. So I say, let the auto companies fail and allow new companies who do understand Econ 101 take over the plants and other assets. Economists call it "creative destruction" and it is the only way to solve Detroit's problems. Interference by Congress and the White House will only make things worse.

hmmmm,
i guess after President elect Obama becomes President and so pushes through the union card chek then watch out as the UAW goes south to try and get a union at the car companies there. and then watch as they destroy those companies. Ha what idiots.

Who Cares If You're Chipped?
Do you really think that the people who stole our tax dollars and devastated our economy give a hoot about the middle class? They're concern is that many are a bunch of hypocrits talking out of both sides of their mouths so that the people believe the nothing words that they're spilling out just like when Obama mocked the Bible and implied that American's Christians are stoning women when in fact, it's countries where he was born and lived who stone women and treat them like second class citizens. Obama won because he received unaccounted for funds from anti-American countries according to news reports to buy up all main stream media time and left McCain and Palin, who were lied to and left with a broken promise in the dust and trashed - even on Jay Leno - she was still trashed and one must wonder why people must be so mean-spirited to a woman who believes in traditional marriage, life for babies, even special needs babies, and family!

Lackadaisical Greed
The Auto Makers and Auto maker UNIONS can only blame themselves. They both got greedy. The Auto Makers began in the 70's making quantity over quality, and the Unions going along with this, increased their demands for more and more money. Both continued down this road despite what should have been a huge wake up call with the collapse of the 90's Internet Bubble.
They both lacked vision for the future and honest intropective looks into their own souls.
They've made their beds...they lay in it.

Jonathon,
You say "There's not a single country in the world that has as good a health care system as we have in the US."

You really are unaware of where the USA ranks in world healthcare stats aren't you?

Look it up, you might be very surprised...along with then not making incorrect statements in the future.

the big three
we need to just face the truth!! The big three are a pension and benefits company that just happen to build cars that no one wants to buy. julie

Carrot Cruncher
I will make a prediction: Obama bites and bails these guys out. It won't be binding though as Obama is not a natural-born citizen.

Automakers and unions do not deserve
to be bailed out. Sure it will be hard on them, just as it was hard on others caught up in Defense Industry consolidation, but life went on. If they had built good product, sold it at competative prices and delivered something that would last more than 2 years maybe, just maybe I would be more on their side. But since they insisted in obsolecence by design every year or two, forget it. If Toyota and Honda can build in America for around $50.00 per labor hour why subsidize the union fat cats who insist they need $85.00 per labor hour. It just isn't sensible

Scrap Iron
If you think that Saxby Chambliss is "good and honorable" then we must assume that you are unaware of what he did to Max Cleland.

Cleland is a multiple amputee Viet Nam vet who Chambliss portrayed as being associated or similar to Osama bin-Laden in a despicable campaign ad a few years back.

This alone would/should put Saxby in the scumbag category. But when you ad in the fact that Saxby Chambliss begged for 5 (FIVE) deferements during Viet Nam to avoid serving his nation Saxby shows that he is not only a scumbag but also a confirmed hypocrite.

Actually, with a name like "Saxby" maybe it should be expected.

It boggles the imagination that Sen. McCain is campaigning for the heroic and patriotic Saxby. As much as Sen. McCain might not want the Dems to reach 60 in the US Senate, I wonder if former POW McCain holds his nose when he has to be near Chambliss at events?

The fault lies with and the solution
As several writers have pointed out, recent economic history (the steel industry/the airline industry) suggests that bankruptcy would be the most viable option for the auto industry. An additional bailout would further enlarge the already unfathomable national debt and reward business incompetence.

The fault lies with:
1 Management
+ for designing unreliable and inefficient
cars (check "Consumer's Reports" car
reliability/efficiency charts)
2 The UAW
+ for demanding wages/benefits
that made the company uncompetitve when
competition (Toyota/Honda,etc.) arrived:
in the early 70's the lakeshore commun-
ities in southwest Michigan were
inundated in the summer with caravans of
of big boats hooked to big campers
hooked to big trucks. Auto workers.
3 Elected Democrats in Michigan
+ for resisting efforts to make Detroit
cars more efficient: in deciding to
drop his opposition to an increase in
the CAFE standards, Senator Carl Levin
broke with his long-standing tradition
but too late. Predictably, Represen-
tative Sander Levin is passionately
supporting the big bailout.

4 The People of Michigan
+ for believing Democrats have
solutions that work

A final note: There is a commercial on a Detroit television channel for Jeep. The ad shows several young people in a Jeep careening wildly about in a reckless and wasteful orgy of driving. Do the automakers still believe Americans will forget $4 and more gas now that gas is somewhat reasonable and go back to their old driving habits? If they do, what further evidence does one need to be convinced that the Big Three are poorly managed? (Maybe they are just really trying to get rid of that unwanted inventory.)

For the sake of my state, I hope that sound economic sense will come to it.


What
about the paper industry? There's plenty of
people in the industry itself and suppliers that could use a boost.
I grew up in a textile town, let's resurrect the
textile industry in New England. Plenty of people lost jobs and futures there but no one
bailed them out.
What about all the "little' places, start up
small businesses that the "little" guys are struggleing to keep alive being squeezed by
higher costs of food (if you are a small business serving pizza, sandwiches, ice cream or whatever) caused by the nincompoops now in charge who refused to discuss the high gas prices this summer instead going on vacation.
Did I mention also being squeezed by the taxes and stupid "green" regulations that handcuff inovation. What about the work laws that prevent employers from canning unproductive, lazy and/or insubordinate employees on the spot instead of going through all kinds of hoops having to prove the poor little victim really was a lazy, no good bum.

What about the rest of us living on fixed incomes? We all could use new cars, big screen t.v.s, R.V's, AIG style spa vacations, round the world trips by sea..let's let our BIG
DADDY WARBUCKS bail us all out.

Auro Makers - Unions
Way back about 1050 & 60's when the unions kept striking, I was saying that they were going to price themselves out of the market and out of a job. It has taken a long time but it looks like it is here.

American Made Trucks and Cars
AMERICAN TRUCKS
and CARS
are TRASH

I bought a 2003 -- Chevrolet, Silverado 2500 HD Pick-up truck.
With less than 90,000 miles the Idler Arm Bracket Pivot Assembly and power steering pump has been replaced and the left tail light assembly needs replacement. Also, it gets 14 miles or less to the gallon of gasoline.

Tom ..
healthcare and stats ....
Why would I believe stats as they are usually designed by folks who have a particular perspective to prove? Why should I believe you who apparently has socialist leanings?
Why, if od allows us to reject him, should I embrace your orthodoxy, which with so many others has been proven a failure.
When we finally wise up and withdraw our troops from the rest of the world and permit the world to move along its path of individual states, each with its own nuclear potential and burdensome defence forces; lets see how well socialism fares in Europe with those conditions.
Freedom and individually responsibility are a fact of life. Stinging insects and ants live in a collective and they are soulless.

Does anyone ...
remember the last Chrysler bailout?
Wasn't there a Lockheed bailout?
This is all very funny!

Detroit is a Godless Sewer...

Anyone who has spent their life in Michigan - Has spent their life paying taxes for the Autoworkers wages, pensions, and cozy cottages.

All this while the UAW has made Michigan undesirable for other businesses to move to or grow here.

Simply put, the UAW is the #1 reason Michigan has spent the last 6 years in a one-state recession.

Who would open a business here when the only thing to expect is Union thugs knocking on your door, taking you to court, forcing you to pay multi-million dollar settlements, and demand you hire drug-addicts and alcoholics?

Michigan is surrounded by the greatest fresh water reserve on the Planet... Wouldn't one think that this alone would draw gobs of water-dependent producers and consumers?

Good luck
explaining to the public why the Financial sector (heavy Republican contributors) should be kept afloat but the auto industry and their unions (large Democratic contributors) shouldn't.

We should never have allowed the initial bailout.

Gregdn.. not true...

Freddie, Fannie, and all the others contributed to Barack O.

It is the matter of America turning it's back on it's founding principle...

"One Nation 'Under' God"

We are now under the illusion that God's moral teachings are "Ancient Mythology". We have made the grave and arrogant mistake of placing America "Above" God. And God will always have the last word, regardless of our narcissistic thinking.

"Do unto others..." is no longer taught in public schools and Universities.

It is now - in the no longer quoted words of Martin Luther King Jr. - "Survival of the Slickest".

Welcome to the Kingdom of Animals.

Unions DO NOT GET IT...
Pro-unionists are busy griping about the quality of work, violations of the 5000 page work rules, the open ballot inititive and yada, yada.

The point is, it will all be for naught when the Detriot Three Implode. Bankruptcy will mean Union busting by atrophy.

As much as I hope for the best for my friends and relatives who live and or depend on the Mowtown economy, GM, FORD and CHRYSLER are the victim of Unionized "ECONOMIC JUSTICE".

If people think they want more socialism in the USA, such as in the form of UNIVERSAL MEDICAL COVERAGE, they need look no further than the unsafe business practices of Union enforced socialism on companies, and ACORN and congressionally enforced "economic justice" on our Mortgage Financial system.

When the AVERAGE compensation for a UAW worker is $80.00 per hour, $160,000 per year and PHD Engineers, Scientists and Physicist barely make that kind of money, there is something wrong.

Bust Unions now! Before they drag us all down the unsustatinable rathole of rotten attitudes and productivity for great pay.

The cry for reorganization.
A Court monitored re-write of contracts and the preemption of the state laws that enforce the dealership franchise agreements is required for GM and possibly the other two as well.

Our auto industry turns out bad product. The SUV and truck development since the mid-1980's has marketed high clearance vehicles that obstruct the roads and have too much fuel capacity.

GM needs to close down more than just Oldsmobile. The Pontiac Aztec is a recent example of concepts that should never have gone beyond the clay. Buick and Pontiac and perhaps the Chevy truck line should be shut down. Re-tool Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC trucks. Sell off all the boutique lines and get cars into the flow that define the market not ones that are tardy on the trend line and not competitive with the Asian success stories such as Accord and Toyota.

Ford's product is meaner and more dynamic but they could stand to stand down the Mercury line and rely on fantastic product such as the Edge and retro pony to continue the brand along with the tighter Lincoln.

Chrysler’s boxy lines that evolved from the cab forward design need to go the way of the Zil. Too much torque and too little taste. Truck line needs to get away from the RAM CAM mentality and Peterbilt weight and lighten the load.

These heavy cars and trucks are absurd. Either fast and furious or lean, lithe and lethal but slim the stuff down and cut the fuel consumption.

Then, have the courts figure how to scale back UAW hallucinogenic blue collar assembly salaries in order to protect existing pensions and health care, (within normal parameters) and stop the endless ladder climb between Executive compensation and UAW demands for more perks and higher wages. No one is without sin in the American Auto business.

Sell off subsidiaries; cap the Asbestos lawsuits.

No bailout beyond the capital needed during reorganization.

These companies require cautery.


Cliff
You seem very bright, but a tad selective. You believe stats about Lockheed and Chrysler but deny stats from the World Health Organization and other independent agencies that rate health care for every nation on the planet. Go figure.


And you prove to be a bit less "bright" when you blurt that I have "socialist leanings" and wonder if you should "embrace" my "orthodoxy" when you actually do not have a clue as to my "orthodoxy" or anything else about me. You are simply forming an uninformed opinion...and we all know what opinions are like and what they smell like. Right?

Speaking intelligently and making legitimate points almost always works better than ranting. Try it.

We bailed out Chrysler in the 70s
and it worked.

But all three is probably undoable.

And it sends the message that you can scr*w up and someone--the Am. taxpayer--will save you through gov't intervention.

Germany just went into recession. It runs 10-13% unemployment when it isn't in recession. Britain is in recession, but Britain barely ever has a recordable GNP.

The above is the situation the leftist want for the entire US.

What are we going to save? We haven't even dispersed the $700,000 billion that was such an emergency a few weeks ago. Bush and co. could've waited until after the election, and let the Fed, which carries a trillion in back-up cash, handle the *bailout* until it was really obviously needed.

The US should extend unemployment ins. for car workers, encourage the State of MI pick up the retirement medical, and let all the other chips fall where they may. We are just priming ourselves for a decade a la Japan in the 90s.

Send money and support for Chambliss and Coleman or the Dims. will own the Sen. and all said here will be as smoke.

Rose CA #105 @11:21 AM EST
The "why" is that Sarah Palin is a winner. In spite of the fact that Mclame waited until the last possible moment to name a VP running mate Sarah denied the left a landslide and a mandate.

The leftists in both parties are afraid of her popularity. She drew larger crowds than Obambi and Mclame. She has my support in 2012 if she decides to run. That would really turn the leftist establishment on it's head. The real chuckle is that the counter-culture, revolutionary, anti-establishment left of the 60s and 70s has now become the establishment, and with that the problem.

The vastness of leftist failure has become unbearable. The establishment left are now the problem that must be dealt with. Real conservatives have become the new underground, the new revolutionary force, our time will come, see you on the front lines.

DON'T TREAD ON ME!

car rating
This is a difficult proposition. There are good reasons for wanting to save these companies but I don't see how it can be done.

The top 10 cars of 2008 (according to an article on yahoo) are made by either Toyota or Honda. Of the bottom 10, 6 are made by Chrysler.

The blame belongs to many. UAW, the oil companies, the car companies, the govt (both Dem and Rep) and the American people for not demanding better vehicles earlier.

But we have to concentrate on the future. If money were to be loaned, would it be possible to turn these companies around? What is the business plan? The balances and checks and the goals? If there is a reasonable business plan, we should consider it. But if not - and I doubt that there is, given the lack of quality - we should not give them the money.

SECURE THE UNION VOTE FOR 2012
This is a sick effort by Obama to ensure he has the union vote in 2012 for re-election. He does not put the country's best interests ahead of his own personal gain, and this is another instance of that. Bankruptcy reorganization is the best strategy for dealing with these automakers, but Obama wants their votes in 2012... so, he has to support their bailouts.

Carlos
You seem a bit confused about more than one thing but especially when it comes to what to worry about since Obama has yet to make a decision or implement anything related to our economy or for that matter...anything else.

You seem upset to the point of making almost incoherent statements about Obama and the financial meltdown. Here is a good rule of thumb: Any paragraph that contains the word "God" three or more times indicates that you have probably forgotten to take your meds.


Black Market
Conservatives need to start considering doing business on the Black Market. Tea Party -- let's begin covertly undermining the new Weimar Republic, peacefully. Let's do it one step at a time.

Remember it is no crime to protect your income from a thief. Who can deny that Congress is becoming more and more comprised of thieves? Who is this man Paulson to steal from my children? Do I know him.

Begin the Revolution NOW. But do it smart.

THE GHOST OF LENIN MUST BE SMILING
AUTO INDUSTRY BAILOUT?

.....This is a bailout of the Auto Unions (UAW) ...

.....The Democrats and their bedmates, the unions, are ready for a power grab of Industry ...Lenin's dream of using unions to take over factories to be run by the Government is getting closer to reality right here in the good ole USA ...

.....If GW has an ounce of balls left he will ignore the Big Three and let Obama take credit for throwing the taxpayers money away .....COLOSSUS

___SCREW the UNIONS and “C H A N G E”
*
UAW? The TEACHERS UNION?
Too much for Too long. And who Suffers?
As usual the TAXPAYER!
NOW Let’m EAT CAKE.

Wont it be fun watching Obama APPEASE his Huge and far reaching union Support
by the UAW and the Teachers Union, while trying to reconcile the Two Black
Holes in our society: The FAILED Economy and absolutely WORTHLESS Education!

“C H A N G E” Get ready Stockholders and Parents! Let the show begin!

*

Dancing Bear #129 @ 12:42 EST
Pardon me for butting in, that's a great idea, count me in. When commerce begins to go underground to prevent theft by a rapacious government it will be felt quickly.

The best way to eliminate big government socialism is to starve it. It has a tendency to kill the parasites as well. I just wish we could have done that with our votes some 20 years ago.

DON'T TREAD ON ME!

Failure?
Letting the big three deal with their own problems will cause a big disruption, but it is not a failure. They will have to become "SUSTAINABLE". No more lavish offices and indulgent benefits. They still have vast resources that may be purchased by the smaller auto companies. Think of it as "RETOOLING" for the future.

If the government would eliminate the CAFE standards, the Detroit will only make profitable cars. Detroit's engineers are great at making big cars, why must they make a certain number of small cars - that market is covered by Japan & Korea?

JMO51
"Yes, give the money. But also kick out the senior management and resplace them with a reciever who has broad powers to renegotiate union contracts and to deirect the future efforts of the companies."

The only way union contracts can open for renegotiation is through Chapter 11 by law. In order to cut the blood sucking by the unions car makers must first file for bankruptcy. Now Congress can try and force the unions to renegotiate without it and to that I say "Good Luck!"

___United Airlines and the UAW
*
Since the UAW created the employee structure at the big THREE. JUST SELL IT TO THEM?
Sell GM Ford and Chrysler to the UAW like UNITED AIRLINES did to their UNION.

That worked out well!
**

They build ugly junk

Look out your window, and watch the cars going by. Did you see a Chevy, a Chrysler, a Ford? There is no way to tell. The Auto companies not only have built the most ugly cars ever seen, they are ashamed to put their name on them.

And look at a parking lot, can you imagine that those piles of junk are not in the trash heap, that is what people have to drive. The most ugly colorless junk ever. Why would anyone buy one of those if something else was available. And don't blame it only on American Big 3, half of those are built by other companies, and they are just as ugly.

Recently a 90 year old friend of mine bought a new Caddy, so asked me to take him for a long ride. When I saw what he bought I thought that can be a Caddy, it's too ugly. Then I got inside, and I can't describe the horrible design.

Ten years ago I went to a GM dealer to buy a used car. They pointed to one and said, “There’s a Toyota.” I said I did not want to buy a Jap car, I wanted a GM car. Someone else said, “That’s not a Toyota, that is an Oldsmobile.” Since I had owned and was happy with other Olds cars years ago, I bought it. But the only place where the name appeared was in small print under the radio. I found I could understand why, the car was an uncomfortable bunch of junk, and GM was ashamed to put their name on it.

Fifty years ago you could look out the window and tell exactly which make of car had just driven past, now they are so ashamed, they don’t put their name on them.


Jobs vs paychex
Do we all know the difference between a job and a paycheck? What the economy and govt taxers will miss is the paychecks but not the jobs.

A job is where you do $50k of work for $40k of pay but learn a skill to make you more money in the future. A paycheck (think govt employees and the UAW here) is when you do $30k of work and get $50k of pay. This is what car workers call "good jobs" and is of course not sustainable and why any bailout is fools gold.

Government actually can create good paying jobs. It just costs them (and us) $50k for every $30k/ year salary/job they create.

Bailout with no plan?
Seems to me that the Detroit Big 3 would have to have a clear and decisive plan of action before they would receive one penny of Our money. The Unions will also have to fall in line and give back more than a little. I still have a lot of doubts whether this will help them compete with Japan and Korea who seem to have their auto making and auto sales down to a fine art.

Why the outrage?
I totally agree with the fact that government should not be in the business of bailing out business.

And I agree that the UAW must bear some of the blame along with the upper management of the Big Three.

But why do most people seem so upset at what MIGHT happen per the auto makers bailouts but not the least bit concerned about what the Wall Street white shirts actually DID get?

There is no possible way that the UAW or the automakers could be as corrupt as Wall Street. Consider this, since AIG alone has gotten over $120 BILLION of our tax dollars:

Let's suppose that the dumbest (or the most corrupt) company on the planet lost $50 million per day...every day of the year that they went to work. To equal that $120 Billion that AIG says they burned it would take about 10 years of losing that $50 million per day!

And the goobers here are worried about what the automakers MIGHT get? Seems that what you are doing is similar to picking the fly sh!t out of the pig pen!