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Saturday, April 26, 2008
Michael Barone :: Townhall.com Columnist
Popular Vote Gives Clinton an Edge
by Michael Barone
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Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



One thing many people haven't noticed about Hillary Clinton's 55 percent to 45 percent victory over Barack Obama in the Pennsylvania primary is that it put her ahead of Obama in the popular vote. Her 214,000-vote margin in the Keystone State means that she has won the votes, in primaries and caucuses, of 15,112,000 Americans, compared to 14,993,000 for Obama.

If you add in the votes, as estimated by the folks at realclearpolitics.com, in the Iowa, Nevada, Washington and Maine caucuses, where state Democratic parties did not count the number of caucus-attenders, Clinton still has a lead of 12,000 votes.

Moreover, she may be able to maintain that lead, despite an expected Obama victory in North Carolina on May 6, by rolling up big popular vote margins in West Virginia on May 13, Kentucky on May 20 and Puerto Rico on June 1. So it's likely that Clinton will be able to argue that undecided super-delegates should heed the will of the people.

Obama supporters can counter that claim with arguments of their own. Their candidate is ahead and will remain ahead in delegates chosen in caucuses and primaries. Michigan, where Obama was not on the ballot, and Florida have been disqualified by the Democratic National Committee for voting too early. Counting popular votes unduly discounts the results from caucuses, in which many fewer people participate than in primaries. And the Democratic Party can't afford to alienate the young and black voters who enthusiastically back Obama.

These arguments will probably prevail. Yet Clinton's popular vote lead is one piece of evidence that suggests that Obama will be a weak general election candidate. In national polls, neither Democrat seems stronger than the other: The realclearpolitics.com average of polls as this is written shows Obama leading John McCain 46 percent to 45 percent and Clinton and McCain tied at 46 percent apiece. But they don't run the same in different states.

SurveyUSA's 50-state polls released in March showed that electoral votes would go to different parties in 15 states depending on whether McCain was pitted against Clinton or Obama. And it is electoral votes that determine who will be president.

There are states where Obama runs stronger than Clinton. They include most of the West -- notably Colorado, a state Democrats lost in 2000 and 2004 but which has trended their way since. They include states in the Upper Midwest, like Minnesota, and New England states like Connecticut and New Hampshire, which Democrats won in 2004 but where Clinton seems weak.

But Clinton seems to run stronger than Obama in the industrial (or formerly industrial) belt, running west from New Jersey through Pennsylvania and Ohio to Michigan and Missouri. Obama's weakness among white working-class voters in the primaries here suggests he is poorly positioned to win votes he will need to carry these states in November. This is not a minor problem -- we're talking about 84 electoral votes.

Obama has also fared poorly among Latino and Jewish voters in every primary held so far. This is of consequence most notably in Florida, which has 27 electoral votes. In 2000, Al Gore won 67 percent of the vote in Broward County and 62 percent in Palm Beach County -- both have large Jewish populations. In this year's Florida primary, Obama lost those counties to Clinton by 57 percent to 33 percent and 61 percent to 27 percent. No Democrat can carry Florida without big margins in Broward and Palm Beach.

Obama's weakness among Latinos and Jews could conceivably put California's 55 electoral votes in play. Los Angeles County delivered an 831,000 vote plurality for John Kerry in 2004. Most of that plurality came from areas with large numbers of Latinos and Jews.

Barack Obama's 20-year association with his "spiritual mentor," the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, his "friendly" relationship will unrepentant Weather Underground bomber William Ayers and his remark that "bitter" small-town Pennsylvanians "cling to guns and religion" do not help him with any of these key voting groups. And his discomfort, evident in the Pennsylvania debate, when he is greeted with anything but adulation does not augur well for his ability to stand firm and show a sense of command in the face of the stringent criticism he is bound to receive as the Democratic nominee.

Hillary Clinton's current and tenuous popular vote lead may not persuade Democratic super-delegates to reject the candidate who has, after all, won more delegates in primaries and caucuses. But it may prompt some to think hard about Electoral College arithmetic.

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About The Author
Michael Barone is a Fox News Channel contributor and co-author of The Almanac of American Politics. He is Senior Political Analyst for the Washington Examiner and a Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a Fox News Channel contributor and co-author of The Almanac of American Politics.
 
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Uh, want to rephrase?
Considering who the loyal opposition is likely to be, methinks "master" may be a poor choice of words. The former POW may well win, but all the negative ads that will be launched at Sen. Obama may get worn out by the fall. Who knows, voters may choose to vote on the real issues.

Nice analysis.
Barone nails it pretty well.

Obama's chances of being the nominee are still good, even as he'd prove disastrous in the general election, ensuring a McCain win.

Hillary does far better(than Obama)among states with large electoral votes, which after all is how this thing is settled(specifically Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and as Barone observes, probably California as well).

Limbaugh's highly touted(in his mind anyway)"Operation Chaos", is a flop. To the extent it has even a negligible effect, it works to Hillary's advantage.

In fact, in Pennsylvania primary election, those persons who did switch their voter registrations from Republican to Democrat, voted for Obama in greater numbers than for Hillary.

There is little doubt Hillary would be the stronger Democrat against McCain in the general.

So one could argue Operation Chaos is helping to field the stronger candidate to run against McCain.

McCain probably will win anyway, because the liberal Democrat establishment cannot afford to alienate two of the party's main constituencies....the uber leftists and blacks....by refusing to make Obama the nominee.


Another Tale Re-run
This is old stuff, getting its most airings starting the next day after the Pa. primaries. Nothing new here from Barone. His "arguments" are without merit. Since this is about Superdelegates:" Obama has also fared poorly among Latino and Jewish voters in every primary held so far." If it gets to Obama vs McClain those people will vote Democratic, not Republican. So that "argument" is a complete bust. Industrial states - almost the same, little difference between HRC or Obama vs McCain. Superdelegates cannot "steal" the nomination from Obama, there must be more legitimate reasons than something newly added. Else rioting and defection. Public disclosure: Barone is on the membership list of the CFR.

The interesting thing is.....

From the very beginning of this campaign (which seems like 27yrs. ago. Ugh!) no one has been able to accurately predict anything.

A year ago McCain was declared dead in the water. Rudy was the presumptive Republican candidate, no one gave much thought to BHO, and HRC was the presumptive next president.

And, until just a few weeks ago, until BHO made his now famous "bitter" comments, no one thought HRC would take PA by 10 points.

Any savvy columnist, pundit, or strategist would only say about the up and coming primaries... "I dunno!"

In fact, the ONLY thing anyone can predict, with any credibility, is that if HRC gets the nomination, the BHO supporters are going to go nuts!


It will NOT be pretty!





Barone Is Creating Confusion
Any 3 Democrats will give 3 different vote counts. This is typical Clinton politics "what is the meaning of "is"? All that counts is delegates, 2025 needed to win; there is no rule that awards the nomination to a contender based on states won or popular vote. Let the convention run its course, if no one has 2025 going in, cast ballots, load guns, get out the cigarette lighters, Molotov cocktails and go at it. May the worse Democrat win. Never fear your base unless you have 40,000,000 disillusioned Blacks that have just been robbed in a back room by a bunch of White super delegates led by Lannie Davis and James Carville. I suggest some state of the art fire extinguishers and 911 on everyones quick dial list.

If Obama had been vetted
he probably wouldn't have the delegates he now has. Notice since recent revelations about Wright, Ayres, unfortunate comments etc. he hasn't been doing so well. The bloom is off this leader who was going to transform politics.

However, no matter what, the democrats are stuck with a very damaged candidate because he is black and to overturn his votes would cause anarchy amongst African-Americans. (Even Sharpton has said publicly he would lead a march if Obama is not the nominee.)

I wonder
why anyone thinks the Democrats could run this country well when they have made such a mess of their own primaries:

1. Disenfranchising Michigam and Florida Will they have a 48 state convention?

2. Apportioning the delegates in each state in an arbitrary manner that they are likely to end up with neither candidate having enough delegates. .

3. Holding caususes--the most undemocratic idea of all. Only those able to get to the caucus on a certain date can participate. That leaves out military serving overseas, nurses, firemen etcetera who work shifts, the elderly and disabled and morew. There is no secret ballot at the caucuses so participants are open to coercion. .

Talk about your quagmires. .

Every Vote Must Count
The Racist Obama people are trying to steal the election from Hillary. The super delegates better not let that happen.

There will be no caucuses in November.

impeach: You ARE JOKING? Right?


You couldn't possibly really think that "Jeremiah Wright's interview last night with Bill Moyers was awesome and proved that he is a brilliant man!"

Not in a million years!




(Oh, and when you have to call someone a POS, it's all too obvious how limited you really are!)




The Deal is Done
It don't matter! Obama will be awarded the Dem nomination because they cannot afford not to without seriously damaging one of the party's largest and most faithful voting bloc. That is why even some moderate Dems (Sam Nunn) are coming out for the "black" candidate.

For you moderates and conservatives, not to worry! Even if Obama wins the General Election, which he most likely will, his radical leftist positions will never make it into practice. The Dem machine, the real powers in the party, will prevent a violent move to the left which would seriously harm the party long term. He will certainly be allowed to end the war in Iraq, but probably no quicker than McCain would wind it down. There will be changes in healthcare and tax [policies - these would happen no matter who is President. Since the far left and blacks are addicted to symbolism over substance, just his election will firmly glue them to the Dems for the near future; and the Dems will retain their black constituency which they were afraid of losing.

An inexperienced and untested President Obama may well serve two terms, but will accomplish little of note (see Bill Clinton) and, thus, do little harm; and when he leaves, the office of the President will have much less power than today. However, his soaring rhetoric and image will probably strenghten the Dem's position as the long term majority party.

Impeachbush
You have your impressions regarding Wright and his interview. I have mine and yours are no better or worse. They are both opinions.\

I saw an intelligent person who was very knowledgeable about the bible. I saw a clever and sometimes devious person using the bible to score points. I saw anger barely surpressed. I did not see love and caring even when he said the words. Truly, to me he was impressive from a certain standpoint, but not from your standpoint.

loco: Exactly spot on! And....

has anyone explained why the church's web site was immediately scrubbed as soon as Wright's sermon was aired?

Now, it would seem that if Wright's sermons were all that great, and his little sound bite was really taken out of context, they would go out of their way to make sure the entire sermon was posted on the web site so all could see....


Hummmmm....

Wow! impeach really does believe Wright

is brilliant!

Amazing! Just stunningly amazing!!!

Wright is a shrewd manipulator of words, as well as a bigot.


But please do try to explain why the church's web site was immediately scrubbed as soon as Wright's sermon was aired, rather than post the sermon(s)in order to clarify any... uh... misunderstandings.



Ha! This ought to be good!!!



Notice to Deluded Lib Posters
Are you that thickheaded? The point, for most expected GOP voters, is not to ensure Hillary wins the Democratic nomination. The point is to encourage the contest to remain undecided for as long as possible to ensure a maximum of dissaffection in the Democrats base.

The bottom line, whether due to Republican efforts or not, is that they are getting what they want.

My prediction is that, due to lower-than-needed liberal turnout McCain will win by a comfortable margin. Both Hillary and Obama are too tarred by the leftist ideologue's brush to win over enough of the moderate/middle to compensate for this loss.

Latest poll from Indiana,
In head-to-head match-ups:

Clinton vs. McCain

Clinton: 46%

McCain: 46%


Obama vs. McCain

Obama: 49%

McCain: 41%

--------------------------------

It's becoming clear all the attacks on Barack Obama are not flying with the public. Indiana is a "bellweather" state; it has not really gone democratic in more than 45 years. This poll is a harbinger of things to come.


impeach Bush
Have another swig of Kool-Aid. Whew! In scanning your posts, I thought for awhile that you were merely engaging in some clever satire.

Talk about a complete disconnect from reality. When you consider that your defense of the abominable Rev. Wright goes well beyond that offered up by Obama himself, you only provide live ammunition to Obama's detractors, who can rightfully point to the likes of you to support their thesis that Obama is supported only by kooks and wild-eyed leftist zealots.

Will
And Michael Dukakis had an 18-point lead over George H.W. Bush in the summer of 1988...so what's your point?

Popular Vote
You can only come up with those figures when you count Florida and Michigan. Senator Clinton did some under cover campaigning in Florida when all candidates had agreed not to do so, as both Florida and Michigan chose to have early primaries in defiance of party rules. In fact, Senator Obama had his name removed from Michigan ballots due to those same rules. If both had campaigned, the outcome would have been very different. But, we will never know, will we?

bulldog
my point is: don't get too smug thinking McCain is going to coast to victory. Even with all Barack's "baggage", a majority of the people are still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe you listen to too much conservative talk-radio, where you're insulated in a cloistered bubble. That' not the real world. The real world wants a change from the policies of GWB, a change McCain isn't willing to provide.

Presidential Election 2008
On October 2, 2002, Barack Obama’s judgment told him that starting a war in Iraq would be a big mistake and he forcefully said so. Much to the contrary later that same month both Senators Hillary Clinton and John McCain voted for funds authorizing President Bush to begin the Iraq war.
When Barack Obama decided to run for president, unlike Hillary Clinton and John McCain, he made the significant decision that he would not accept campaign contributions from lobbyists and political action committees. It was Barack Obama’s judgment that if he was going to become the next President of the United States that he be elected by the American people without the distorting influence of the money peddlers in Washington.
That’s the kind of change that Barack Obama represents which concerns so many in Washington who don’t seem eager for the American people to reclaim their democracy from the influence of special interests, political action committees, and lobbyists, the Washington money peddlers who currently arrange to provide huge amounts of financial support to political candidates whom they believe have a good chance of winning, and whom they can then “work with” later on. (Cont.)

Presidential Election 2008
This election is not about whether you happen to be a woman or a man, or whether your father was a black man or a white man, an Asian or a Hispanic. It is not about some radical remarks made by Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr. or anyone else. This election is about the future of our country and is about whether the majority of Americans are ready to elect as their next president an individual with integrity, intelligence, and fresh ideas, a 47 year old biracial man who is much less interested in political games than he is in seriously addressing the significant problems facing our country and the rest of the world.
We are at a historic moment in America. Barack Obama is a very special individual who as president will bring a much needed breath of fresh air to Washington and help ordinary Americans begin reclaiming their democracy

refatsew
you really need to find his list of donors before you go spouting that.

refatsew
here is one on short notice


Flag Pins for everyone
Flag pins (about two Reps/Fox shills wear it). Sounds of voice (but have you listened to your talk radio heroes at all?). Someone's friend's pastor's son's college buddy did something awful (Hagee-McCain exempt, of course).

Do you guys even have the important issues written down somewhere? Do you realize that McCain is going to be embarrassed when he realizes that non-bigots, non-dittoheads, real Americans know at least a little bit about the past seven years?

Obama's support did not waver among the shrill-voiced, non-flag pin wearing self-proclaimed great Americans. No matter how hard Hannity tries to get his base's panties in a wag, only his remain bunched.

Taking cues from Rove, are we? Quite possibly the dumbest "smart" guy Bush employed. If Rove says McSame has a chance, then Obama is your next president.

Troubled waters for Dems.

I agree that Miss Hillary will in no way be able to pull ahead in the delegate count. In the end, she may be able to do it with the popular vote... but even that's in doubt.

The super delegates simply find themselves between a rock and a hard place. And considering the likely primary end results, they simply can not and will not turn around and give Hillary the nomination. That would be party suicide.

And I do not see Miss Hillary accepting a VP spot, and I wonder how much or even if she will campaign for the Obama. By then, the bad feelings between them will be too deep and too raw.

The super delegates, however, will not let this go to the convention and will vote... sooner than later.

Then, the final vetting and the the public eduacation about the Obama will go into full swing. Most conservatives will swear and shout "no way", and most of the lunch-bucket Reagan Democrats and other moderates will shake their heads and finally see the light.

And in November, McCain wins comfortably.





inthemajority
w/e you want to believe. talk issues? how about answering why obama wants to send 800 billion to the UN?

Lefties, keep focusing
on that spoon. If you keep at it, through sheer will power of the mind, maybe you can make it bend your way.

Impeachbush
The so-called quote from Ambassador Peck has already been discredited as an untruth and manipulation of awords. Catch up!!!!

Obama and Qualifications
Obama supporters and apologists.

You don't want us to judge Obamas' worthiness to be POTUS by:

1) His associations.
2) His wife.
3) Radicals who are attracted to him.
4) What he says because he didn't mean what he said.
5) The fact that he has never done anything but vote present on difficult issues.
6) He doesn't like difficult issues to be asked of him in a debate.
7) He thinks his grandmother acts like a "typical white person" whatever that is.
8) He thinks white people in 'middle America' are bitter and hold onto God and guns to survive.
9) He chose a 'Mentor' who guided him and married he and his wife, baptized his children but has no idea what the Mentor believed.
10) Went to the 'million man march' but had no idea that Farrakhan was anti-semitic or had been on the 'mother wheel' and talked to aliens.
11) Didn't know that James Cone and black liberation theology was the basis of Mentor Wrights' theology.
12) Thinks having a child is a 'penalty'.

If someone was considering voting for Obama what would you supporters say is a good reason.

Obama will help
"Obama will create a fund to help people refinance their mortgages and provide comprehensive supports to innocent homeowners. The fund will also assist individuals who purchased homes that are simply too expensive for their income levels by helping to sell their homes."
-------------------------------------------------

We should all wait to buy that 1 Million dollar home and new Mercedes, Obama will help us out when we buy something over our income level.

Gee, I thought that if one makes a bad decision they were responsible for that decision.

Obama will steal our money and give it to those who can't make good decisions.

Obama, what a nice guy!

Impeachbush: Did YOU watch the video?
If YOU watched carefully, you would know that while he supposedly was quoting Ambassador Peck (correctly or incorrectly), HE USED THE "QUOTE" TO SUPPORT HIS ARGUMENT.

He didn't say that Peck, but not I, Rev. Wright, believes that TCHCHTR. He said that I, Rev. Wright, like Peck, believe that TCHCHTR.

Rev. Wright went on and on about supposed war atrocities that the US has perpetrated and ends up declaring his amazement that we don't understand why 9/11 happened.

It does not matter who originally used the phrase TCHCHTR. Rev. Wright clearly agrees with the proposition.

Your video shows Rev. Wright digging a deeper hole for himself.

If you can't figure out what TCHCHTR means, you have no business responding.

for King Liberal
King Liberal writes: "we cannot have McCain the walking Gaffe machine continue the failed policies of the Bush administration."

"Continue"???

McCain has broken with Bush on Katrina.
McCain has broken with Bush on global warming.
McCain has strongly criticized how Rumsfeld ran the Iraq War.

Your attempts to link McCain to Bush are going to fail.

The ONLY Bush policy that McCain really wants to continue, is he won't allow a U.S. defeat in Iraq. But do you REALLY want the Democrat candidate to campaign all-out on cutting and running from Iraq? That means that if your Dem candidate wins, he or she is going to be committed to the same type of defeat as Saigon in 1975 with the helicopters lifting off from the embassy. Do you REALLY think that when Americans go into the voting booth in November, they will vote for that?

In America's 230 year history, when the chips were down and the election was held, they have NEVER, NEVER voted for surrender to a foreign enemy.

Wishful Thinking
For you Moderates and Conservatives out there, I hate to bust the ballon, but we will have a Dem President in 2008. George Bush and his incompetent cohorts in both the Admin and especially in the dysfunctional GOP Congress have all but destroyed the conservative movement. And, McCain certainly cannot put it back together.

Our only hope is that the moderate and traditional liberal Dems show some realism and prevent the radical, far left from turning our country into another France. Thank Bush, Cheny and Rumsfield, as well as Hastert, etc. for ensuring the GOP remains out of power for the next 25 years, or more.

Yep Gore will make an excellent Secretary of Energy, and Murtha a forward thinking Secretary of Defense.

Obama on families
"Since 1960, the number of American children without fathers in their lives has quadrupled, from 6 million to more than 24 million. Children without fathers in their lives are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime, nine times more likely to drop out of school, and 20 times more likely to end up in prison."
Barak Obama
-------------------------------------------------
Obama since you are the most Liberal Senator, why not examine your family policy.
1) Pay and sustain women who do not work.
2) Continue to sustain them as long as they don't marry a man with a job.
3) Pay and sustain them even more if they will have more illegitmate children.

Obama duhhhhhhhh, your policies have created the breakup of the family.

King Liberal - 9:55 post
You are correct about one thing. You don't have to worry; the Republicans will eviscerate McCain themselves. The Democratic nominee can save money on anti-McCain material; he or she can just do a re-run of what the Republicans have been screaming.

Now, the unhappiness of Democrats: Obama's numbers are always higher in exit polls than the actual vote. That indicates that voters say they have voted for him when they haven't. Are they trying to look like non-racists? Why not just say they voted for Clinton? Is truth a commodity is such short supply that it can't be spoken?

The Democrats have a greater internal problem than the Republicans. Good ole Al Sharpton is out this week saying he will march if Obama has this nomination 'stolen' from him. The truth is, you 'liberal whites' are racists at heart. For a while, I agreed with Anne that this nominating process seems to have taken '27 years'. Now I am beginning to see the entertainment value in liberals having to live up to their preaching. Let's see Democrats walk their talk.

Obama improving education
Obama on Education
“I don’t want to send another generation of American children to failing
schools. I don’t want that future for my daughters. I don’t want that
future for your sons. I do not want that future for America.”
- Barack Obama
Jefferson-Jackson Dinner, Des Moines, Iowa
November 10, 2007
-------------------------------------------------

Obama Solution: Determine those teachers that ARE doing their job and pay them more.

Obama doesn't tell us whether preferences, quotas or affirmative action will be used to determine those teachers who are doing their job.

Teachers who are causing the "failing schools" will continue to teach - according to the Obama plan.

-------------------------------------------------

Obama, if you were not in the tank for unions, especially the NEA, you would get rid of the teachers not doing their job - duh!

Barack Obama still has popular vote lead
I am a Democrat, and I find you conservatives to be comical with the mis-information that you spew out in the media.

What Mr. Barone failed to acknowledge in his article is that Barack Obama still leads in the popular vote. Hillary only leads in the popular vote if you count Michigan and Florida. The Democrats still have 9 primaries left, and after North Carolina and Indiana Barack will increase his popular vote lead.

Barack Obama's name was not even on the ballot in Michigan or Florida, so those states are not counted in the popular vote. We Democrats actually have rules in place that have to be followed, and because Florida and Michigan broke the rules by moving their primary's to a different date, their primary votes are not officially counted.

Barack Obama is by far the strongest candidate for the Democrats. Barack does much better then Hillary in Michigan, where he leads McCain, and Hillary is losing to McCain in a recent poll. The same is true for states like Iowa, Wisconsin, Montana, Alaska, Colorado, Nevada, Oregon, Minnesota, Washington, Virginia, and New Mexico.

If Barack Obama won Colorado, New Mexico, and Nevada, he could lose both Ohio and Florida and still win the election 271 electoral votes to 267 electoral votes.

VOTE FOR BARACK OBAMA AND LETS GET A DEMOCRAT WIN IN NOVEMBER!

Retired Geek
'Reverend Wright's comments have been taken out of context'. Tired of hearing that? Listen to the Rev. this weekend. What I heard yesterday was not pretty for Obama. And, if the Rev. is such a pillar of society and great religious leader, how many of these people jumping on you have sent their tithe to Wright's church?

'Ayers is not a bad guy.' Apparently not as the University of Illinois has been employing him for a while. How many of these people jumping on you have signed up for his classes to get to know him and show their support? How many have made a donation to the university in Ayers' name to show their support?

'Rezko is just a businessman'. How many jumping you have donated to his defense fund since his indictment came down and his trial has started.

Let them put their $$$ where their big mouths are.

Obama Solutions
Obama Blueprint for Change
After reading the 46 page document that outlines the Obama change message, one finds several of his solutions to current conditions.

The main problem he finds is that government has failed its citizens:
-------------------------------------------------
Obama Solution: Increase the size of government.

Obama, any sane person would reduce whatever is causing the problem - duh!
------------------------------------------------
I wonder if Obama logic thinks that to reduce crime we should increase the number of criminals?

As a matter of fact Obama does think he is tough on crime - so Obama wants early release for crack addicts and reduced sentences for crack violations.

Obama you can't reduce crime by putting more criminals on the street - duh!

















































Obama
Why does everyone always focus on the Rev. Jeremiah Wright thing? Don't we all have some crazy uncle or vaguely racist grandmother? Are we to be judged for them? Do we need to take blame for what they say or do? No! They are different people than us. And Obama is different than Rev. Wright. He should not be judged for someone else's actions. THE END.

TK

zedsmom et al
Hillary Clinton should spend her entire advertising budget on Mentor Wright.

Hillary should pay big money to anyone who could get Mentor Wright to speak to large audiences.

Hillary should pay big money to anyone who could get Mentor Wright to be on any TV show.

Hillary doesn't need to use negative TV adds - just get Mentor Wright audiences.

Mentor = a trusted counselor or guide or tutor.

Mentor Wright
"It is incontestable and deplorable that [African Americans] have committed crimes; but they are derivative crimes. They are born of the greater crimes of the white society."
Mentor Wright
-------------------------------------------------

Mentor Wright not only believes 'whites' are racist. Mentor Wright believes 'black crime' is really the fault of 'whites' - what a Mentor and spiritual guide Qbama chose!!!!!

Robert on AeroPlanes
Someone said that a five year girl started crying at Wal-Mart because Robert was riding the AeroPlane and wouldn't give the little girl a chance to ride on the AeroPlane.

Someone said that the little girl said: "that mean ole man said I had to salute him because he was a Navy Captain."

Someone said two Girl Scouts selling cookies nearby, yanked Robert off the AeroPlane and beat him up.

A passerby was quoted as saying "I didn't know the Girl Scouts had a swat team."

Obama and Counselor Tutor
TK writes: Saturday, April, 26, 2008 1:07 PM
"Why does everyone always focus on the Rev. Jeremiah Wright thing?"
-------------------------------------------------
Obama chose Mentor Wright as:

Mentor = a trusted counselor or guide or tutor.


One can learn much about Obama by examining his trusted counselor, guide and tutor.

Counselor = a person who gives advice.

Tutor = a person charged with the instruction and guidance of another.


Ret. Geek & Zedsmom are 100% spot on!


AND THEN there is the issue of what BHO is all about. His "policies, if you will..

In a word, he's a MARXIST!

Every single word that comes out of his mouth (and that of Michelle's) comes right out of the Marxist Handbook!

It it totally beyond me how people cannot see that!!!!!!




retired geek/anne
retired geek:

guilt by association is a bs argument. wright isnt running for president obama is. obama has denounced wrights comments and says he doesnt agree with him. evidently you think he is lying.
do you have any proof to back up your contention?

Anne:

Explain how Obama is going to convert the u.s. government to a marxist system.

Anne + Zedsmom
Salient points both!

-------------------------------------------------
For Liberals:

Salient = of notable significance.

Left Angle
Obama said Mentor Wrights comments were inappropriate.

Inapppropriate has a connotation of time and setting.

It is Inapppropriate to wear blue jeans and a T-shirt to a formal wedding. (time and setting)

It is Inapppropriate to discuss the superbowl at a funeral with the bereaved. (time and setting)

It is not Inapppropriate to do those things in another setting or time.

Obama said the Mentor Wright and Farrahkan anti-semetic comments were Inapppropriate.

Obama said that Mentor Wrights comments on America were Inapppropriate.
-------------------------------------------------
Obama as a lawyer is a wordsmith.

Obama is implying by the word Inapppropriate that the comments might be apppropriate at another time or setting - duh!


Left Angle
You are right not to connect Obama with Wright, according to Wright himself on Bill Moyers' PBS show. Wright says that Obama will say whatever a politician has to say.

As to Obama, he has the strength of his convictions, whatever they are beyond throwing money at the problem and upping capital gains taxes.

"Hi, I'm from the guv'ment and I'm here to help you." If that comedy routine hasn't become a classic by now, it should.

and the difference is???

Hagee on Catholicism
"Most readers will be shocked by the clear record of history linking Adolf Hitler and the Roman Catholic Church in a conspiracy to exterminate the Jews." [Jerusalem Countdown by John Hagee]

Hagee on Women
"Do you know the difference between a woman with PMS and a snarling Doberman pinscher? The answer is lipstick. Do you know the difference between a terrorist and a woman with PMS? You can negotiate with a terrorist." [God's Profits: Faith, Fraud and the Republican Crusade for Values Voters, Sarah Posner]










"Well I think it's important to note that pastor John Hagee who has supported and endorsed my candidacy supports what I stand for and believe in. When he endorses me, it does not mean that I embrace everything that he stands for and believes. And I am very proud of the Pastor John Hagee's spiritual leadership to thousands of people and I am proud of his commitment to the independence and the freedom of the state of Israel. That does not mean that I support or endorse or agree with some of the things that Pastor John Hagee might have said or positions that he may have taken on other issues. I don't have to agree with everyone who endorses my candidacy. They are supporting my candidacy. I am not endorsing some of their positions."

Left Angle and Obama
Left Angle don't want us to judge Obamas' worthiness to be POTUS by:

1) His associations.
2) His wife.
3) Radicals who are attracted to him.
4) What he says because he didn't mean what he said.
5) The fact that he has never done anything but vote present on difficult issues.
6) He doesn't like difficult issues to be asked of him in a debate.
7) He thinks his grandmother acts like a "typical white person" whatever that is.
8) He thinks white people in 'middle America' are bitter and hold onto God and guns to survive.
9) He chose a 'Mentor' who guided him and married he and his wife, baptized his children but has no idea what the Mentor believed.
10) Went to the 'million man march' but had no idea that Farrakhan was anti-semitic or had been on the 'mother wheel' and talked to aliens.
11) Didn't know that James Cone and black liberation theology was the basis of Mentor Wrights' theology.
12) Thinks having a child is a 'penalty'.

If someone was considering voting for Obama what would you Left Angle say is a good reason.


jerabub - exit polling
Why do the exit polls in the Dem. primary always give higher results for Obama than the actual votes show?

Why does Al Sharpton say that the only way Obama will lose the nomination is if the nomination is 'stolen' from him?

Is there an underlying racism in the liberal ranks? Smells like it.

I had rather Clinton get the nomination and have the Democrat Party deal with the racist problem within. Have you considered the concept of implosion?

huckabee

i have discussed wrights comments with a number of ministers and all of them said they did not think that obama should be held accountable for wrights statements.




comments made yesterday by huckabee.


An assist from an unexpected quarter:

"[Y]ou can't hold the candidate responsible for everything that people around him may say or do," Huckabee says. "It's interesting to me that there are some people on the left who are having to be very uncomfortable with what ... Wright said, when they all were all over a Jerry Falwell, or anyone on the right who said things that they found very awkward and uncomfortable, years ago. Many times those were statements lifted out of the context of a larger sermon. Sermons, after all, are rarely written word for word by pastors like Rev. Wright, who are delivering them extemporaneously, and caught up in the emotion of the moment. There are things that sometimes get said, that if you put them on paper and looked at them in print, you'd say 'Well, I didn't mean to say it quite like that.'"

Later, he defended Wright's anger, too:

"As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say 'That's a terrible statement!' ... I grew up in a very segregated South. And I think that you have to cut some slack -- and I'm gonna be probably the only conservative in America who's gonna say something like this, but I'm just tellin' you -- we've gotta cut some slack to people who grew up being called names..."














Retired Geek
I don't know how many home runs you have to hit before your detractors see that you have, clearly, won the game. However, it is beginning to look like the old lesson of trying to teach a pig to sing.

I appreciate your recitation of facts and note that none of them are being disputed.

religiouslib
1) Pointing to someone elses bad behavior doesn't excuse other bad behavior.

2) Obama CHOSE Mentor Wright to guide him spirtually, mentor him and tutor him.

3) Mentor Wright said he had an illuminating discovery, realization (epiphany) when he heard the words of James Cone.
-------------------------------------------------
"Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community. . . . Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love."
James Cone
New York's Union Theological Seminary

religiouslib
Have I missed something? Did McCain join Hagee's church? When? Has he belonged for over 20 years? As a matter of inquiry, when did McCain even attend Hagee's church?

zedsmom
mccain asked for and embraced hagees support.
they have a friendship that goes back years.

my main point is that is seems acceptable to some that mccain accepts this endorsement by saying i don't agree with some of his positions but obama says the same thing and it is dismissed.

there is a double standard here.

have any of you asked your minister his position on this.

i think huckabee who would have voted for over hillary has the same take as a majority of ministers in america.

Retired Geek: The Bottom Line..
I keep wondering exactly who it is that right wingers such as yourself are trying to convince with your bs argument of guilt by association between wright and obama. I mean you were never going to vote for the man in the first place.
your argument only works for people that think
like YOU.

The problem for right wingers is that Sen. Obama has millions of supporters who are going to donating millions of dollars to his campaign (far more than Sen. McCain) and he is bring thousands of new democrat voters into the process who are young and enthusiastic. They evidently see something very positive in him,
where all you see is negative. should he win the nomination i have no doubt he will beat McCain easily in the general election.

ah yeah McCain..you conservatives hate his guts dont you? are you gonna hold your nose and vote for him anyway..you know he is a liberal republican dont you...lmao

bottom line: if you dont like obama dont vote for him.

zedsmom
my post should have read

who i would have voted for over hillary.

religiouslib and mentors
Anecdotally you can recite all of the those who do not believe Obama is guilty by association with little effect on anyone who thinks.

Obama chose Mentor Wright to guide, inspire, tutor and mentor him. He tithed to Mentor Wrights messages.

Obama supported Mentor Wright in every conceivable way one can support his pastor - for 23 years. Placed the baptism of his children in the hands of Mentor Wright, placed the covenant of his marriage in Mentor Wrights hands, placed his own tutelage in Mentor Wrights hands.

duh!

religiouslib
Enlighten us on what it is that Obama supporters see?

Give us reasons to support Obama.

Dan1967: Democrat Party Rules?
*** "Barack Obama's name was not even on the ballot in Michigan or Florida, so those states are not counted in the popular vote. We Democrats actually have rules in place that have to be followed, and because Florida and Michigan broke the rules by moving their primary's to a different date, their primary votes are not officially counted." ***

"Rules" in the Democrat Party are fungible. In 2000, the Florida Supreme Court saw fit to rule in violation of state election laws in order to help Al Gore.

When New Jersey Senator Robert Torricelli withdrew from the election due to ethics problems, he did so after New Jersey election law froze additions to the election ballot. Even so, the New Jersey Supreme Court saw fit to allow the Democrats to add the candidate Frank Lautenberg to the ballot.

Note that these were violations of state election law. Imagine what the Democrats are willing to do when it comes to Democrat party rules.

I'd count on the Dems doing whatever "feels good" and "feels fair" rather than following the rules.

Rules are great for others, but Democrats are a bit more selective when applying them to themselves.

Retired Geek: questions
Exactly what about Rev. Wrights speech/sermons offended you? right wingers call him anti-amerian and a racist.

can you please site the passages in his sermons that prove your point?

religiouslib, Retired Geek
I think Retired Geek pointed out the difference in his last post.

I am so turned off by all of these boxings of thoughts as they don't really tell me what the underlying belief is. If you would be so kind, what is a 'religious lib'?

Left Angle: Well, for starters...

BHO's plan for SOCIALIZED health care is only ONE of a number of good first steps!

Now, before you ask anymore stupid questions and embarrass yourself even further, I suggest that you learn something about socialism, communism, and the grandfather of them all.. Marxism!

Look, I've even provided some links for you....

http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/

http://www.marxists.org/subject/students/index.htm


Zedsmom et al
I am off to my volunteer duties of visiting the homebound. The homebound remind me every day of our duty as an American citizen - to help the helpless - it also reminds me of the waste of money Americans spend on liberal waste policies.
-------------------------------------------------
I think your comment on "teaching a pig to sing" is right on!

"The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see."
Ayn Rand

retired geek
ronals reagan had a lifelong friendship with jerry falwell.

here is what rev. chuck baldwin said,


In many respects, Dr. Falwell’s legacy is forever linked to Ronald Reagan. I believe it is safe to say that, in may ways, Jerry Falwell made Ronald Reagan who he was and Ronald Reagan made Jerry Falwell who he was. They were inseparable friends, which is a credit to both men.

now do you think reagan agreed with everything falwell said in his 30 years of his sermons.

falwell said billy graham was the servant of the devil.

do you think reagan agreed with that comment from his "inseparable" friend.

this guilt by association is un-american.

i do not equate mccains politics with hagees views.

i do not equate reagans politics with falwells views.

so why is it acceptable to equate obamas politics with wrights views.

because obama is a democrat?

TK: The question is CHARACTER
TK writes: Saturday, April, 26, 2008 1:07 PM
*** "Obama
Why does everyone always focus on the Rev. Jeremiah Wright thing? Don't we all have some crazy uncle or vaguely racist grandmother? Are we to be judged for them? Do we need to take blame for what they say or do? No! They are different people than us. And Obama is different than Rev. Wright. He should not be judged for someone else's actions. THE END.

TK"

I don't have any such family members.

When a candidate has no track record, you have to look at CHARACTER. That may not mean much to some, but it does to others.

So far, we have discovered that Obama has positioned himself as a black activist as well as associating with those on the far left. We know that he has the most liberal voting record in the Senate.

On top of this, we have his botched attempts at getting past these issues. As Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon discovered, cover ups become an issue as well.

He has tried to throw his grandmother and self declared "friend" Tom Coburn under the train by claiming moral equivalence with Rev. Wright and William Ayers. His stories have changed over time.

Doesn't this say something about his character that you should consider? Or are you solely interested in empty platitudes like "change" and "hope"?

Of all the things that he has said that he wants to do, is he capable of delivering? Is he even interested in delivering? I don't know and you don't either.

I find the attraction to Obama similar to a baby's fascination with anything bright and shiny and preferably makes noise.

Retired Geek
Have a good day, sir. Love the Rand quote. I must quit playing here and get some things done. My life does not revolve around a computer screen.

zedsmom
i am liberal because of my religious beliefs.

i believe in the soul.
i believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
i believe in faith and the power of prayer.

i believe that abortion is morally wrong.
i believe that capital punishment is morally wrong.
i believe that torture is morally wrong.
i believe that pre-emotive war is morally wrong.


that is a synopsis of what i believe but could discuss it for hours.

Moyers & Rabid Wright
PBS and Bill Moyers were useful idiots for Obama with their softball interview with the Rabid Wright. Moyers just let him go on and on with his 'reasoned' explanation. Three of four people actually fell for it,I imagine.

Someone said Hugh Hewitt had several,if not all the taped tirades (I do not refer to them as sermons).Since they are off the market,now,it will be interesting to see what he will do with them.I hope they are played over and over until every voter in the country has to hear them.


Perhaps this hasn't begun to get nasty
Doesn't it seem odd to anyone else that not one African-American woman, (those who might have historically eschewed divulging what they've learn privately when working as chamber maids and housekeepers), has revealed any information about the Clintons' history , on the chance now they'd be denied their "Senior Prom," limelight at the Whitehouse?


Anne: you didnt answer my question
you keep calling Mr. Obama a marxist. so by inference you think he is going to seek to overthrow the current u.s. system of goverment and replace is with one that is of marxism. I'm gonna ask you again, exactly HOW is he going to accomplish that goal?

religiouslib
Thanks for your response. I asked to better understand the context of your postings.

dan1967
Correction to your 12:58pm post:
Mr. Obama's name actually was on the ballot in Fla.

retired geek
i have not yet decided who i am supporting although i lean towards obama.

as i said in a post earlier, i would have supported huckabee over hillary.

personally, i like obama's proposition of increased tax credits for college students. (my son starts college next fall).

although conservatives hate it for some unknown reason, i like his idea of talking to our enemies.

for many years, there was an actual direct telephone line (the famous red phone) in the white house between our president and the soviet leader.

i mean we are paying sunnis who literally took thousands of american lives to now support us.

how is talking to enemies worse than paying them off.

finally, i like obamas support on the new GI bill which for some reason bush and mccain oppose.


LA: To answer your ill informed and

uninformed question would take far too long... more than is allowed per post.

So, I did one BETTER. I provided the links so YOU could actually learn what Marxism is (a learning opportunity for YOU.)

You know that ol' saying, "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day... Show him how to fish, and he can feed himself for a lifetime."

I've just provided you the information for you to learn.


You're welcome! :-)



isaldur
What exactly is "undercover campaigning"?


So Let's Just Give The Dem Crown To
Barak Hussein Obama and call it a day shall we?

After all, Bill Moyers asked Jerry Wright the hard-hitting questions everyone wanted answers to and that pretty much ends THAT controversy.
"He said what he had to say as a POLITICIAN" was exactly what Obama wanted to hear I'm sure.

Let's also agree that a terrorist is only a terrorist when he isn't "just a guy from my neighborhood".
Enough said on Billy-bomber Ayers. Right?

And as for BO's ELITISM & what he said about people who CLING to their religions & guns...
C'mon now, we all know a redneck is a redneck is a redneck and that anybody who goes to a NASCAR event needs to get their shots first. Dont we?

Let's also forget that 47% of Hillary's supporters have stated they will either vote McCain in November or stay home. While only 24% of BO's supporters claim the same.

For Hillary that is the vast majority of "typical white women" (maybe a few grandma's that didn't like one of their own being thrown under the bus perhaps?)
For Barry it is the vast majority of the black, African-American support he gets (maybe the idea of having the nomination STOLEN from the Messiah doesn't sit well?)

We know the Dems are frightened by Obama backer Mayor Douglas Wilder's promise of "blood in the street of Denver"...so Hillary CANNOT win!

Either way, for anyone to think the Dems are just gonna fall into lock-step behind the eventual nominee is ludicrous!!

So let's crown Obama now and get it over with then McCain can CROWN HIM in the General Election.

For God And Country
W/O=

fact check for retired geek
you keep saying this

"As a matter of fact Obama does think he is tough on crime - so Obama wants early release for crack addicts and reduced sentences for crack violations."

the United States Supreme Court ruled last year that there could be early release of those arrested for non-violent crack possession which was a lessening of the federal mandatory guidelines.

the U.S. sentencing commission has since been examining and releasing those convicted under the original guidelines.

in other words retired geek,

obama is in agreement with the conservative Roberts court (the vote was 7-2) on this issue but you continue to use it as bludgeon against obama.

i told you this on another thread and gave you the links.

you usually try to be intellectually honest so please erase this charge from your list of things you hate about obama.

democratic rules
dan1967 said rather proudly that "We democrats actually have rules in place".

I don't know what you're so proud of there, Dan.
The rules from the DNC to a state:
"If you don't have your primaries when we say, we won't count your votes." Sounds like an brat in the schoolyard to me. Oh that's kinda how Howard Dean is.

"Some precincts' votes will votes will count more than others, and caucus votes will count more than votes cast in the actual polling place (easier to get dead people in maybe). That's all just to make sure it's fair, but just in case the people do something stupid, we'll put some supervoters in place who can override them.

Yeah, you actually have some rules alright.
Actually, so do the republicans. I think they're along the lines of The guy with the most votes wins.

Wait a minute...hold that crown
At least until AFTER the "ONE ON ONE" debate "Without (right wing) moderators"!

That is if Barry takes up Hill on her "challenge". But what are the odds of that happening?

Although, he says he would talk "ONE ON ONE" with all the despots in the world...is she despotic enough to qualify?
Or will he run & hide from A GIRL!!!!

W/O=

the article
I think Barone makes the case that Mrs. Clinton has a fairly legitimate claim to make, especially if she continues to win, which would demonstrate that Mr. Obama's campaign has cratered.
She does have legitimate claim to the popular votes cast for her, even if the DNC can't count them. She's won all the big industrial states.

It may be that the "poor white working class" is who most of America is--either now, has been, or was raised by.

Anne: answer the question..
your concieted condescending attitude of superior intellect notwithstanding.

I'll ask you one more time. HOW is Barack Obama( (i doubt very seriously he would describe himself as a marxist), if elected potus going to change the u.s. govt system from being capitalist to socialist/communist.

religiouslib: Guilt by association?
What about James Carville and Mary Matlin?

The big difference between the associations of Reagan and McCain and those of Obama is that we have decades of evidence of Reagan and McCain's views and beliefs. We have no history with Obama. The relatively recent discoveries of Obama's associations with mentor Rev. Wright and political ally and supporter William Ayers, who also spoke with Obama twice at events arranged by Michelle Obama is _new information_.

It is also instructive as to Obama's character how he has dealt with questions about these associations. His multiple evasive, bordering on false, stories downplaying the extent of his associations and false, contrived moral equivalences are more evidence as to his character.

Do you really want to contribute false, contrived moral equivalences by bringing up Reagan and McCain?

Only a Barry supporter
would use the word "inspiring" when "insipid" is called for.

For God And Country
W/O=

Left Angle writes:"I'll ask you one more

time."

And, I'll TELL YOU one more time... inform yourself a little and check out those links so at least you have an IDEA of what I'm referring to.

I'll even provided those links to you again! :-)

http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/
http://www.marxists.org/subject/students/index.htm


And, OF COURSE, BHO wouldn't admit that he's a Marxist, any more than HRC would say that she has communist leanings....

"... if elected potus going to change the u.s. govt system from being capitalist to socialist/communist."

If you read those links and read BHO's speeches, you'll see that he's already answered your questions.



Why is it that the "typical liberals" won't do their own homwork???




LA: Sorry, should have been "homework!"
.

Hey impeach: I watched the interview

and the "sermon" if that's what you call it....

Anyone else, I'd question just how they could take away what you claim, which is quite unbelievable.... and pretty much beyond any normal and rational thought process.

But since it's YOU, I'm not at all surprised! Not even a little!!!!!







Hey impeach: I watched the interview

and the "sermon" if that's what you call it....

Anyone else, I'd question just how they could take away what you claim, which is quite unbelievable.... and pretty much beyond any normal and rational thought process.

But since it's YOU, I'm not at all surprised! Not even a little!!!!!







Anne: you have no answer
lets get one thing straight..

I know what communism, socialism and marxism are without a doubt.

What i really think is that all you righties claiming that hillary/obama/dems are going to overthrow the u.s. government and turn it into a communist/socialist dictatorship are out of you darn minds. of yeah, i've heard that one too that that is their plan..

lord have mercy you people are CRAZY..LMAO

impeach:What the h3ll is wrong with you?


William Ayers HOSTED a fund raiser, IN HIS HOME, for BHO when BHO announced his entry into Ill politics.

Who knows where you get your information, but you need to find a better source.



Left Angle: NO ONE SAID "OVERTHROW!"


I certainly NEVER said that! YOU made it up!!!!

And, I doubt very seriously if you have any idea what you're talking about.... Anyone with two functioning brain cells would know that every word out of BHO's and Michell's mouth is straight from the Marxist handbook!

What else would you expect?????

Little by little..... like socialized health care! Which, by the way is at the top of both BHO's and HRC's "Things To Do List."


One step at a time... that's all it takes... ONE STEP AT A TIME!




Oh and Left Angle: Then there is the

higher taxes, of course to pay for such things as their socialized health care programs....

And... lets not forget the "redistribution of wealth!" That's a Marxist goodie!

How's that for starters... and certain steps toward socialism/communism/Marxism?


What does that do you for you, so far????????



so youre telling me...
the republicans either are complicit or they are too ignorant to stop it? rotflmao

one more thing anne
I have heard about the brick by brick one step at a time conspiracy and i think its a bunch of baloney..because it all adds up to the same thing. an ovethrow of the american system of government by the left. and if you believe that is what dems have in mind in think you people are raving righwing lunatics.

let me throw this out there for you. I think if we continue to elect put republicans back in power that they have a plan to convert the u.s. goverment to a dictatorial one party rule fascism..without a doubt, thats why they are loading the ussc with conservative activist judges to make it legal when they take over.

Left Angle writes: "so youre telling me.

the republicans either are complicit or they are too ignorant to stop it?"

NO! Not at all. Just something ELSE you made up!

Good for you, you've "heard about the brick by brick one step at a time conspiracy and i think its a bunch of baloney.."

Well, of course you're free to think anything you'd like... stupid and ill informed that it may be. You're free to think what you want.

But, with the exception of a "coup" or "invasion" that's pretty much how governments got changed....

Do you remember any European history?


And you really do believe that a Republican pres. would convert the u.s. government to a "dictatorial one party rule fascism..without a doubt, thats why they are loading the ussc with conservative activist judges to make it legal when they take over."

First of all, "conservative activist judges" is an OXYMORON. Ha Ha.

If you want to see "activist judges" take a look at the LIBERAL judges... anywhere!

And, exactly WHAT do you mean my "one party rule fascism."?

And, make WHAT legal when they take over????


Sorry, LA, you're losing it..... We all need to start worrying about you.











Left Angle writes: "so youre telling me.

the republicans either are complicit or they are too ignorant to stop it?"

NO! Not at all. Just something ELSE you made up!

Good for you, you've "heard about the brick by brick one step at a time conspiracy and i think its a bunch of baloney.."

Well, of course you're free to think anything you'd like... stupid and ill informed that it may be. You're free to think what you want.

But, with the exception of a "coup" or "invasion" that's pretty much how governments got changed....

Do you remember any European history?


And you really do believe that a Republican pres. would convert the u.s. government to a "dictatorial one party rule fascism..without a doubt, thats why they are loading the ussc with conservative activist judges to make it legal when they take over."

First of all, "conservative activist judges" is an OXYMORON. Ha Ha.

If you want to see "activist judges" take a look at the LIBERAL judges... anywhere!

And, exactly WHAT do you mean my "one party rule fascism."?

And, make WHAT legal when they take over????


Sorry, LA, you're losing it..... We all need to start worrying about you.











impeachbush
impeachbush

In your world, anyone who hates this country is good, and anyone who loves it is bad.

I cannot deal with a closed mind. I won't try.

But it is clear that Jeremiah Wright is a racist, and that William Ayers is a terrorist.

You are wrong but so lost in your private puddle of self absorption that sadly you will never know it.

God Bless America!!!!

impeach: You don't realize it but,

you did not make one rational or pertinent point in your last post... NOT ONE!

Not surprised, of course, but I thought I'd let you know!

Not to be unkind, but I'm DONE WITH YOU!

I have neither the time nor the inclination to play your silly, ridiculous games.... so just don't expect me to respond to your silly, limited posts anymore...







no anne: the bottom line is this..
if you believe the obama/hillary/dems have step by step plan to convert the u.s. government to a system of socialism/communism you need to have your noggin examined. talk about stupid and ill informed..that is some sick bs.

havent your heard dear, all us liberal leftist democrats are anti-american traitors who are aiding and abetting the enemy in the gwot.
we are the "hate america" crowd and need to be silenced in our criticisms of emperor bush. the only way for that to happen is for a conservative majority ussc to install bush a dictator and make the democratic party illegal.

havent you heard?

couple of questions ann
If repubs/cons are so against so-called
"socialist/communist" social programs, why do the vote to fund them year after year after year?

also, if there is a step by step, stone by stone conversion of the u.s. government to a form of communism/socialism, would not republicans have to be complicit in allowing that to take place by supporting these programs in the future?

question for upcoming prez debate 08
I would love for the moderator to ask the dem prez nominee for 08 this question on national television:

"Do you sir or mam and the democratic party have a plan in place to systematically over a period of time, one step at a time to convert the u.s. system of government to that of one of communism/socialism?

Clintons on Collectivism
They proclaim that every man is entitled to exist without labor and, the laws of reality to the contrary notwithstanding, is entitled to receive his minimum sustenance his food, his clothes, his shelter, with no effort on his part, as his due and his birthright. To receive it, from whom? Ayn Rand
-------------------------------------------------
"We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." -- Hillary Clinton

"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans . . . ."
-- William J. Clinton, USA Today, March 11, 1993

"We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society."
-- Hillary Clinton, 1993

Clintons and Socialism
Collectivism = emphasis on collective rather than individual action or identity.

Socialism = a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done.
-------------------------------------------------


The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights, cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.


Left Angle and Socialism
Left Angle writes: "you believe the obama/hillary/dems have step by step plan to convert the u.s. government to a system of socialism/communism you need to have your noggin examined. talk about stupid and ill informed..that is some sick bs."
-------------------------------------------------
Capitalism = an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market.
-------------------------------------------------
"We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." -- Hillary Clinton

Retired Geek, impeachthemallregardless
I just popped in before preparing dinner and see that you are starting another inning with another home run. You have steepened my learning curve!

impeach, not being the brightest bulb, what is the PNAC and where can I find information on what you are discussing in that regard? I may be off for quite a while but will look for your response so that my ignorance is not quite so overwhelming. Also, I would appreciate your definition of 'neocon' as it is thrown about so frequently by so many.

Anne understands the argument set forth, as usual. If I may offer this bit of observation, I have never found her to be wrong on her facts yet. Just an observation. Learning it first-hand is, generally, the better lesson learned.

Left Angle and socialism
The primary goal of collectivism -- of socialism in Europe and contemporary liberalism in America -- is to enlarge governmental supervision of individuals' lives. This is done in the name of equality.

impeach bush: oh i know..
you know whats really makes the conspiracy charge ridiculous is fact that, when the people that came up the ideas for programs like social security, welfare, medicare, etc,
I doubt very seriously if they were thinking of implementing some preposterous sinister left wing plot to install communism/socialism into the u.s. government system. i really do believe that if history were examined they were ideas to help people in dire financial straits because of things that were going on at the time in history. I believe it's the same thing with these health care proposals, the right so dispises. they simply believe that the function of goverment is to deal with infrastructure problems, law enforcement and maintaining the military. thats it. the goverment is not supposed to collect taxes (because they want a free ride) or deal with social problems. I think their concept of government is absolutely callous and ridiculous.

Left Angle and Socialism
"Comrades! We must abolish the cult of the individual decisively, once and for all." -- Soviet Premier Nikita S. Khrushchev, addressing the 20th Congress of the Soviet Communist Party, 2-25-56
-------------------------------------------------
"To be a socialist is to submit the I to the thou; socialism is sacrificing the individual to the whole." -- Joseph Goebbels, Minister of Propaganda, National Socialist German Workers' ("Nazi") Party
-------------------------------------------------
"You know the one thing that's wrong with this country? Everyone gets a chance to have their fair say."
-- Bill Clinton (May 29, 1993)

"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans . . . ."
-- William J. Clinton, USA Today, March 11, 1993

Left Angle and Altruism
"[Altruism] is a moral system which holds that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the sole justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, value and virtue. This is the moral base of collectivism, of all dictatorships." -- Ayn Rand


Anne and Zedsmom
Zedsmom writes: "Anne understands the argument set forth, as usual. If I may offer this bit of observation, I have never found her to be wrong on her facts yet. Just an observation. Learning it first-hand is, generally, the better lesson learned."
-------------------------------------------------

I agree 100%

Individualism
The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, the individual, his life, his well-being, his property, his happiness became central to our values, and that is what really made America unique.

Not collectivism/socialism not what the Clintons' want.

"You know the one thing that's wrong with this country? Everyone gets a chance to have their fair say."
-- Bill Clinton (May 29, 1993)


"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans . . . ."
-- William J. Clinton, USA Today, March 11, 1993

"We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society."
-- Hillary Clinton, 1993

MSM and Liberalism
"The people in the MSM (mainstream media) don't think of themselves as liberal. They're just in favor of collectivism and against individualism in general -- without using many labels (or much thought) of any kind. They go out of their way only to mention a minority group if they can. Groupism is what they believe in." -- Rick Gaber

Liberals and Collectivism
"Collectivism means the subjugation of the individual to a group -- whether to a race, class or state does not matter. Collectivism holds that man must be chained to collective action and collective thought for the sake of what is called 'the common good'." -- Ayn Rand,

impeachbush and Don Quixote
You and Don Quixote have a lot in common - windmills - I guess you know that George Bush isn't running for president?

The second thing you two have in common is madness - of course he was quite happy in his madness - you seem unhappy in yours.

Left Angle + impeachbush
What are your opinions on the following:

-------------------------------------------------

What COULD happen if Clinton wins the nomination of the Democrats?

secondly:

What SHOULD happen if Clinton wins the nomination of the Democrats?


Left Angle and Collectivism
Collectivism often sounds humane because it stresses the importance of human needs. In reality, it is little more than a rationalization for sacrificing the individual to the desires of others.

Wright full sermon is worse than clips!
Dear "impeachbush",

You may be interested to know that I actually watched the complete Rev. Wright sermon on "Confusing God and Government" just as you are demanding people do. By the way, this is the sermon wherein he says "No, no no, God damn America".

I must say that it was even more vile in its entirety than the clips used on the TV by Fox and CNN.

Listening to the whole sermon has convinced me that Rev. Wright and his followers (I guess that includes Senator Obama and his family) are a bunch of anti-white, anti-Jewish, anti-American bigots who are filled with hatred for the country in which they live and for the majority of their fellow citizens.

If you listen to the entire sermon, as I did, you will not only hear him say "No, no no, God damn America" like in the clip but you will also hear him:

1. Repudiate the Founding Fathers as liars and evil-doers.

2. Renounce the Declaration of Independence as a pack of lies.

3. Accuse white Americans of trying to kill off black Americans with crack and AIDS (strangely he is in favor of abortions which kills 30% of the children of pregnant black women).

4. Just generally insult President Bush, the Republicans and white people.

There is very little Christian charity or brotherly love to be found in Rev. Wrights sermon, even if you listen to the whole thing.

Now that I have listened to the entire sermon, I think the TV news captured the essence of Rev. Wright's spiritual and political teaching pretty accurately in the film clips they used.

Sincerely,
Guillermo


Retired Geek
Each of the above, means a loss of individuality.Is that right? Thus,loss of freedom.Neo-con means 'new conservative'.Is that also right?

Thanks for the lessons.They are all unthinkable and impossible in a free country.We are not yet there,but it's just a matter of time.

Retired Geek
Dude, way to nail them to the wall with those quotes. They can't even respond to that. Its a conversation ender! If only the libs would wake up to what is actually going on they will see we are in the beginning stages of the Soviet Union. Sad they are so blinded.

Left Angle
please provide some proof on us wanting it back with negros and women knowing their place. Conservatives are much less racial than liberals. Conservatives care only about the issues...Liberals, not so much. Liberals could care less about what is actually good for the country and care more for getting their way. Its so plainly obvious universal healthcare won't work as just look at the other programs our government is knee deep in. Social Security, welfare, medicaid...how can we actually trust our government to handle universal healthcare?

and to us not wanting taxes? talk about blinded. if our government 1)didn't waste my tax dollars 2)did not get involved in things the government is not supposed to and 3) actually needed my money for important things and not pork barrel spending...i would be willing to pay more. For now they do not do/need any of those things. Conservatives are sick of the liberals on welfare sitting around for a free ride. I would like to know how many people in which they have no job and get free money from the government are conservatives...probably none. point proven.

impeach
the fact you don't find "G*d damn America" offensive means you do not deserve to be in this conversation as you are just as likely to say it yourself.

Zedsmom & Ret. Geek: Thank you!

It's painfully obvious that Left Angle is a "typical liberal" and just cannot grasp the difference between Capitalism and socialism/communism/Marxism.

Even just knowing the bare bones minimum about socialism/communism/Marxism anyone with even a modicum of intelligence should be able to recognized what they're hearing in any of BHO's speeches, and those of Michelle's.


And, of course, HRC's words, "We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." are pretty obvious.

Left Angle then says, "changing with the times or get left behind."

"Typical liberal" unable to think and reason for oneself, and blindly and stupidly follows the crowd..... any crowd!

No thank you!

Rowly
Neo-cons was originally used to describe Reagan Democrats. Liberals who voted for Reagan but did not hold all of the conservative values.

1) Were in favor of abortion.
2) Were against the death penalty.
3) Believed in collectivism.

I have no idea what the term means today. Probably most anything anyone wants it to be.

America was the first government, to my knowledge, to declare the right of the individual to be free, to own property, free speech etc.

All other governments stated that the individual was subject to and for the government.

I am a technology geek and others have a much better knowledge of this than I.



impeachbush: Obama-Ayers connection
Ask and ye shall receive:

Here is the announcement of the 2002 event "Intellectuals: Who Needs Them?" sponsered by The Center for Public Intellectuals &
the University of Illinois-Chicago which is Michelle Obama's school:

http://www.uic.edu/classes/las/las400/conferencealt.htm


Here's an article from the "Drudge Retort", not "Report" linking Michelle with the event.

http://www.drudge.com/news/106780/media-discovers-obama-aye rs

There are many other citations from just Googling: "The Center for Public Intellectuals" "Michelle Obama"

Here's another instance: http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/971106/justice.shtml


Anne
I love your tenacity and wisdom!

My failure in comprehension
Dear "impeachbush"

You say that you "haven't watched the whole G-damn America sermon". And yet then you go on to say that "Rev. Wright was not saying that HE damns America".

How do you know that if you didn't watch it?

I watched it all and Rev. Wright was quite clear in saying that, due to the miseries they have endured in America, he and other black people should not be expected to say "God bless America" but rather that they should say "God damn America". It seemed to me that he was, personally, damning America.

You know, I listened to the whole sermon and I did not hear one, single, positive thing said about America by the Rev. Wright even though it is the place of his birth and his homeland.

I don't know what's in his heart of hearts, but based on the words coming from his mouth it sure seems to me that he has no love for this country.

But then, I'm just a regular guy from "fly-over" country and perhaps his sermon and your writings are, as you accuse, "too deep for [me] to comprehend".

The problem for Rev. Wright, and Senator Obama, is that there are a lot of folks like me in "fly-over" country who, due to their lack of "comprehension", will interpret his sayings the way I have in this posting.

I guess you've got a lot of educatin' of us "fly-over" folks to do in order to enlighten us as to the true and deeper meaning of the Rev. Wright's oratory. Good luck!

Sincerely,
Guillermo


Okay, Retired Geek
I have been happily re-reading Proust. Now I am thrown back forty years to Ayn Rand to keep up. Happy now?!?! Proust just doesn't have punch in a politcal argument.

Ret. Geek: Thank you, so much.

Nice to hear... :-)


ckhustler et al
It is sad! The problem I think!!!!

Liberals seem to think intuitively instead of by reason and logic. Their thoughts are biased by their perception of reality.
-------------------------------------------------
Comment on this thought if you will.

If everyone who posts at TH sat in a big circle and viewed an object e.g. Coke can. Any reasonable thinking person would realize that everyone holds a different view (perspective) of the Coke can. None are right and none are wrong. Different views could be debated and all could learn from the others view.

Liberals for some reason cannot see the Coke can. Any discussion with them has nothing to do with what everyone else sees.

Retired Geek
I just started posting a few weeks ago.Am addicted now,of course.I have learned some things I never knew on these threads.

Your posts are some I always read from top to bottom.You have great insight and explain things nicely.

From one retired geek to another.Thanks.

impeachallofthemwithoutahearing
impeach, I have looked up the website you gave me. Needless to say, there is quite a lot of material there and it will take a while for me to read and digest it. I read several of the papers but see nothing conspiratorial yet. I will have to catch up with you on this topic another day. But, I will do the required reading. Thanks.

impeachbush
The shorter media clips did not misconstrue Rev. Wright's point.

It does not matter whether Rev. Wright originated the phrase TCHCHTR. So what if Peck used the phrase? Did Peck coin the phrase TCHCHTR, or should every person mention everyone who has used the phrase back into the mists of time?

How did the lack of attribution change AT ALL the Rev. Wright's message that, choose one of the following: a) TCHCHTR, b) violence begets violence, or c) the US brought 9/11 on itself?

The whole video of Rev. Wright proves that the media clip (which was more than just TCHCHTR), did NOT change the Rev's message.

Retired Geek & Rowly

If you'd wish, please contact lanne00@gmail.com
Also, please put a number between 1-10 in the subject line so I can later veryify it's you...

Thanks

Zedsmom et al
I come from a long lineage of humanists. Ayn Rand became the one I looked at as our spokeperson. In my early thirties I was haunted by two things:
1) origin of energy.
2) origin of time.
3) my mother.

Let me explain about my mother. She was very bright and a very good mother, I cherished her. She had become a devout christian and I didn't like being around her. She never foisted her views on me - but I felt uncomfortable in her presence. I couldn't understand why her presence bothered me and why I couldn't figure out the origin of energy (evolution nor science had any answers). Finally I said God if there is one I want to know about you. That night I met God and I have been going another direction ever since.

Ayn Rand was a humanist and I still like her political wisdom but not her views on God.

wjriii
Thank you very much for those links!

It is much appreciated.

Guillermo: Heaven only knows what audio

impeach found...

Somehow, I'm pretty sure that I actually heard Wright say... "God bless America. No, no, no. God damn America."

Obviously, impeach's BDS is so bad, that he cannot actually hear what's being said.

He obviously cannot read what's written, so I guess there's not reason to think that he can understand what's being said.

Poor little troll!


BTW, I already suggested to impeach that when they come out with a vaccine for BDS, he sign up for the clinical trials. LOL



Rev. Wright's comment are common.
Dear "Left Angle",

You may be right that the Republicans are desperate because they are likely to lose the White House and across the board. I don't really care about that since I not a Republican.

In my posting I was merely reporting, in response to comments by "impeachbush", my personal impression of the entire Rev. Wright sermon and whether the tenor of the sermon was fairly captured by the TV news shows in the brief film clips they showed. It is my judgment that it was.

I am aware that the comments made by Rev. Wright are common in the black community. It is a sad but true fact as I see it from my readings and experience. I regret to hear you confirm it since I think it bodes ill for racial reconciliation any time soon, if ever.

I disagree with you on the "guilt by association" argument. I think that the people who are using the Rev. Wright sermons to criticize Senator Obama are not trying to disqualify him merely on the basis of his association with the Rev. Wright.

Rather, they are questioning the Senator's judgment for hearing such vile things said about his country and continuing to claim the man who said them as his "mentor" and "spiritual leader". Perhaps this is a subtle difference, but I think it is a reasonable argument to make.

What is unreasonable is the argument made recently by Senator McCain concerning the endorsement of Senator Obama by Ahmed Yousef, a senior member of Hamas who said, "We like Mr. Obama and hope he will win the election."

Senator Obama cannot control what other people say about him and it is unfair to expect that he do so.

Sincerely,
Guillermo



impeach: What part of I'm DONE WITH YOU!

don't you understand????


I am out of here
Goodnight all!

Retired Geek, impeachthemallregardless
RG, how well I understand. Thank you.

impeach, as I think another poster on another thread just disinvited me from posting, I will go back to reading. Thank you for taking the time to narrow the field of reading on that particular topic.

Thanks for the confirmation.
Dear "impeachbush",

I am happy to hear that you found the "Confusing God and Government" sermon to listen to. Since the sermon is almost 50 minutes long it is hard to understand how you could have listened to all of it in the 20 minutes between your postings. But I take it on faith that you have now listened to the entire sermon. You wouldn't lie to me, would you?

You are right that the Rev. Wright taught that "God never fails". But as you can now testify, he also said the vile and hateful things that have become such a topic of discussion too.

Since you have listened to the entire sermon, you must now see that what I wrote about the sermons was true and that the Rev. Wright denigrated the Founding Fathers as liars and evildoers, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution as a pack of lies and personally invoked God's damnation on America.

I am glad that we can agree on the facts of the matter.

The Rev. Wright is a fine speaker and delivers his sermon with passion and a degree of energetic eloquence. But I disagree with you in your evaluation of his teachings as "Terrific". In my view his teaching that "God never fails" is marred by his other extreme and hateful assertions and accusations.

BTW, do you belive in God? Do you think that "God never fails"?

Sincerely,
Guillermo



Funny
Barone somehow forgets to mention that he is counting votes for Clinton in Michigan where all of the candidates agreed not to run, but only Clinton left her name on the ballot.

It is amazing how desperate so many conservatives are to run against Clinton rather than Obama.

that Geek's a keeper
We all noticed the same thing Robert. Retired Geek doesn't know anything. In fact I always click on his name so I can learn all that stuff he doesn't know.

Neo-cons
I think neo-cons are once liberal Democrats who came to their senses and became conservative Republicans.

Chuckles writes: "...ignorance is bliss.


Well now, who would know better than Chuckles?

No one! Chuckles is the most blissful person on the planet... Well, at least the most blissful person who is not institutionalized! LOL






Rowly: What's your number???
.

Anne
Three

Rowly...3 not the number in the sub line
.

Ooohh, impeach writes: "Anne: Go take a

long walk off of a short pier! I could care less about your stupid 'I'm done with you!'"

Uh oh, sounds like little impeach is upset! LOL







Do you thihnk we can fix that Anne?
Anne writes: Saturday, April, 26, 2008 11:01 PM
"Chuckles is the most blissful person on the planet... Well, at least the most blissful person who is not institutionalized! LOL"


I mean isn't there some way we could get Chuckles institutionalized, for his own protection?
we wouldn't want him to accidently hurt himself, being so brain dead and all.


Anne
Sent it twice.Three in subject line each time.

OMG That's funny!!
I can't bellieve that Chuckles, of all people, would actually have the nerve to say that anyone else didn't know what they're(there, for Chuckles) talking about.

What better example of the pot calling the kettle black could we possibly get than(then, for Chuckles) that?

Oops sorry Chuckles I realize that in your private little world people get confused by anyone actually using correct words and/or punctuation so I included Chuckles/Wobbie speak where I could just so you didn't get to confused.
Hope it helps your feeble little mind.

Rowly, I got an email with "seven" in

the subj. line...

Rowly, okay got it..Just sent an email

back...

see ya....


Mike Barone--Give's Clinton edge
Great, informative column, so glad I happened up on this website. Just a note- met several people from Illinois on a cruise ship last week- they were thoroughly turned off by Barack and all said they didn't even barely know who he was until this election! God help America if these are the only 3 candidates we can vote for. Rose

The thing
The thing about the pastors is that we, the left, focus on crazy right wing pastors all the time.
Pat Robertson is evil because, in his opinion, god hates New Orleans and smites it with mighty hurricanes.
Phred Felps is evil because "God hates fags"
Jerimiah "The Bullfrog" Wright says "God (Darn) America" and weasels his way out by calling his apostle a "politician".
Mr. Obama threw his pastor and his grandmother under the bus in one speach.
Yet if he still attends the same church or visits his grandma, then a speach is a speach.
A God (Darn) American pastor might look at the family trees that were cut down fighting for a cause.

A divergence in point of view
Dear "impeachbush",

You are right about the timestamps. So you had 78 minutes to watch a tape that is about 50 minutes long. I was wrong in saying that you had only about 20 minutes.

It is odd that you hear such a different message than I do when we listen to the same sermon from Rev. Wright. I agreed with you that he was preaching "God never fails" so we both heard that. But you don't seem to hear the negative things I hear him say about white people, the Founding Fathers, The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and America in general. I wonder why that is? Will you admit that he said some pretty harsh and negative things about those matters and the country?

I am still interested in knowing, do you believe in God? And do you believe, like the Rev. Wright, that "God never fails"?

Also, I am glad to hear that you love America. What do you love about America?

Sincerely,
Guillermo






Obama's Sinking Ship
Obama was favored to win when we hadn't yet learned about Wright, Ayers, Durham, Rezko, and his internet IT guy. If we knew then what we know now, Obama wouldn't even be a serious contender. And his supporters who are threatening to demonstrate (AKA riot), only make it worse for Obama. No sane person, from either party wants to be on the same team as an unruly mob.

Black people supporting Obama because he is the first black ever should consider the mess he will make as the first black ever. When he messes up, and he certainly will, that will make it that much harder for another black to ever again have that chance. Blacks should want to send their absolute finest to "represent."

Lots to Love About America
There are so many reasons to love America. Here are only a few: we have the greatest opportunity for success of any other nation anywhere; everyone wants to come to America. We have the greatest freedom and liberty in this country; our government doesn't send out the military to shoot down protestors like in Tienemen Square and elsewhere. America has world-class medicine; as lousey as many people say our healthcare is, it's the finest in the world. The American people are the most generous and compassionate in the world; no other countries' citizens do more when crisis strikes the world (Katrina, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc.). All American children are given an education; not all countries do. The American people come from a long line of patriots and pioneers; we don't run from a fight. America offers the most religious freedom in the entire world; only here can you be whatever you want to be, or be nothing at all. America offers it's citizens the opportunity to go where they want, be who they want, live like they want and enjoy a quality of life that exceeds many countries. America's military is the highest caliber in the world; we sleep soundly at night knowing they honorably keep a vigilant watch. These are just a few of the reasons we love America so much....

I find it odd you even had to ask what's to love about America.

Obama
Hillary's strategy of under serving the caucus states hurt her badly; she depended upon heavy wins in primary states and many weren't heavy enough.
This aside, Obama has been made by the popular media into a cult hero; the man never offers anything od substance in his speeches I have heard thus far. He is very good at accentuating the problems of this country of which people are very aware, or afraid, and stating he is for "change", but what exact "change" is never defined.
Also, considering the overwhelming support he is getting in every contest from the Black population of the USA, how can anyone deny that he IS a race driven candidate? I mean, duh; it isn't because most Blacks vote Democrat at this point; it's because an overwhelming number are voting based upon race alone.
This election has proven one thing to me beyond a shadow of a doubt and that is that "racism" needs to be peddled on more than one "street corner" in this country!

Anne - You're right.
Dear Anne,

You're right, the Rev. Wright did say "God damn America" along with other vile and nasty things. And it is odd that "impeachbush" cannot hear those vile and nasty things or, if he hears them, that he cannot bring himself to admit that the Rev. Wright said them. I don't know what BDS is, but "impeachbush" seems to be in a psychological state of denial of reality.

Sincerely,
Guillermo

Obama and Catholicism
Dear "impeachbush",

I agree with you that by all accounts the Rev. Wright has served his country honorably in the military. And as I've written here already, I do not know his heart of hearts. But judging by the words that come out of his mouth it is my opinion that there is not much love of America (except for Black America) in the Rev. Wright.

Now you can use selective quotes to dance around the facts of the matter all you want. But the fact remains that the sermon which we are discussing, is fundamentally anti-American and is filled with bigotry and hatred. I don't understand why you can't bring yourself to admit that fact.

Since we can't seem to come to an understanding on that, let me ask you how you reconcile your Catholic faith with Senator Obama's support for various forms of abortion including "Intact Dilation and Extraction" (IDX)?

As you may know, IDX is a procedure wherein the baby is delivered from the womb except for the head into which a vacuum instrument is inserted and the brain of the unanesthetized baby (i.e., it can still feel pain) is dismembered and evacuated so that a dead but otherwise intact baby is delivered via the birth canal.

Doesn't Catholicism preach that any form of abortion is wrong and sinful?

Senator Obama has also said that he doesn't want his daughters "penalized" by becoming pregnant and bearing a child. How do you reconcile your Catholic faith with that statement? Doesn't the Catholic church teach that children are a blessing?

Sincerely,
Guillermo


Lies and liars
Dear "impeachbush",

You say that "if there is anything I cannot abide it is a LIAR".

Does that mean that you can't abide Senator Obama since he lied about the contributions to his campaign by the shady Antoin Rezko who is now on trial for "corruption"?

And does it mean that you can't abide Senator Obama since he lied about his answers to the IVI-IPO (Independent Voters of Illinois — Independent Precinct Organization) questionnaire?

And does it mean that you can't abide Senator Obama since he lied about his parents getting together as a result of the "Bloody Sunday" march across the Edmund Pettus bridge in Selma, Alabama on March 7, 1965 (Senator Obama was born on August 4, 1961)?

Sincerely,
Guillermo


Abortion as birth control
Dear "impeachbush",

I believe you are right when you say that Senator Obama didn't mean for his comment "to sound as cold and calloused as it did". But it did sound cold and calloused and, in my opinion, it is revealing of his mindset.

You say that you think Senator Obama "wants those babies to be conceived within a marriage and when the parents are able to bring them into the world under favorable conditions." So, are you saying that Senator Obama is in conflict with the Catholic faith? Don't Catholics believe that children are always a blessing even if they come at an inconvenient time or when conditions aren't favorable or if they suffer from birth defects?

You say that if Senator Obama "believes in partial birth abortion as a form of birth control" you "do not agree with that". Does that mean that you support partial birth abortion so long as it is not used as birth control? What is the position of the Catholic church on that matter?

I am curious, how can you as an self-declared, observant, Catholic believer support a man such as Senator Obama who holds views on abortion and the sanctity of life that are in direct opposition to the Catholic faith?

Sincerely,
Guillermo


Obama's stance on abortion
Dear "impeachbush",

You say that "not familiar with Obama's stance on abortion or on partial birth abortion". Here are some facts from Obama campaign matrial (and other sources) to help educate you on the matter. Senator Obama:

- Supports Roe v. Wade
- Has stated he will protect a woman's right to choose
- Is rated 0% by the NRLC (National Right to Life Committee), indicating a pro-abortion stance.
- Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions.
- Voted AGAINST banning partial birth abortion
- Has said that he trusts women to make their own decisions on partial-birth abortion

Now that you know what they are, do you share Senator Obama's positions on abortion and partial birth abortion? Are his positions consistent with the teachings of the Catholic faith?

Sincerely,
Guillermo


Religiouslib; Moral Equivalences 1 of 3
religiouslib writes: Saturday, April, 26, 2008 3:26 PM
wjrii

I'm sorry that I didn't respond sooner, but I missed your response in the deluge of messages.

-- "you say we must decide about obama on character but here is a man who has never divorced, a church goer and a family man.

john mccain has been divorced and has changed his church affliation depending on what part of the country he was campaigning in."

That is all well and good, but what does that say about his ability to perform in the office? Don't be quick to judge why people join particular churches. Didn't Obama's association with his church give him "standing" in the community?. Did he have to join a church with such extreme views?


-- "he has embraced an endorsement from a minister who has called the catholic church "the great whore' and has accused that church of helping to exterminate jews.

what does that say about mccains character."

Are you sure of your quotes and not just repeating Dem talking points? In any case, we have history with McCain to evaluate what HIS views are. And once more, Hagee is not, and was not McCain's mentor and pastor. Does Mary Matlin need to repudiate James Carville's statements?

Religiouslib: Moral Equivalences 2 of 3
-- "some factual checking.

it is a myth that obama has the most liberal record in the senate.
the national journal made that statement.
that is like ariana huffington saying mccain is the most conservtive.
neither is an impartial source."

Here's the link to the NJ study naming Obama the most liberal senator in 2007: http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/

Does Ariana have a study to show McCain as the most conservative, or did she just write it?

The NJ study includes the study's methodology. Do you dispute their methodology? What leads you to believe that the NJ study unfairly skews the results which puts Obama as more liberal than Hillary or Teddy?

Let's say that he's in the top 5. Does 5th place vs. 1st place qualitatively repudiate the right's argument that Obama is not the uniter who will work across the aisle as his supporters claim, when he has no significant accomplishments as Senator, let alone bipartisan successes?


-- "you call obama a "black activist".

what does race have to do with it."

He has been an activist in the black community. But you are right on one part. He associates with activists (unrepentant terrorists) who are white.


-- "there are conservative activists, environmental activists and so on.

how does being and activist and being black reflect on his character."

Do you know Conservative and environmental activists who make such denunciations of America? Would he be a president for all of us, or only for racial causes. We don't know.


Religiouslib: Moral Equivalences 3 of 3
-- "he did not throw his grandmother under the bus."

He did so. Obama started by calling Wright an uncle who sometimes says embarrasing things, just like his grandmother.

bill oreilly admitted over the airwaves that his grandmother said similar things.

I don't see his grandmother making these "embarrasing" statements to groups of enthusiastic people. Has she ever said G-D anyone or anything, much less in public?

did oreilly throw his grandmother under the bus."

There is no moral equvalence. He was downplaying the extremism of a popular, publicly vocal authority figure.

This is an attempt to mislead the character of Rev. Wright, and therefore, the importance of such a strong relationship with such a person.

He also created a false moral equivalence by balancing William Ayers, an unapologetic terrorist with blood on his hands with Obama's self-described friend Senator Tom Coburn citing his strong stance on abortion and abortionists. Has he actually done anything? Does he advocate anyone doing anything unlawful while abortion is still the law of the land?

Obama was downplaying his relationship with William Ayers, trying to mislead us as to their association.

These examples of how he deals with issues cause me to question how he would perform as president. Do these concern you?


-- "be careful of double standards here."

I am. You are ignoring important differentiations between the natures of Obama's and McCains' associations.

You are ignoring the evasive and misleading nature of, much less the number of versions, of Obama's explanations.

impeachbush:
You're putting up a spirited defense of Wright
and his protege Obama; but I wonder how you
defend his comments about HIV?

I understand that the notion of a racist con-
spiracy to commit genocide against blacks has
some popularity among the uneducated. But the
"Reverend" Wright is an educated man. Brilliant,
I think you said.

Do you think he actually believes the nonsense
he spews about AIDS and crack? Or is he simply
pandering to his ill-informed audience, stirring
up racial hatred to keep that collection plate
full?

You know the answer as well as I do. I hope your
mind is open enough to accept the plain facts,
even though I doubt you'll admit it.

Hillary leads in the popular vote
This conversation has got off topic, but is extremely interesting. I like the quotes relative to socialism/communism. Virtually any philosophy which puts groups before individuals is socialistic, and since the 1980s we have had one in this country called communitarianism. Clinton embraced it during the 1992 election and his "grougpism" quote dates from that. I haven't heard him make anything approaching that comment for years.

The cultural revolution and its mass technique of political correctness comes from Mao's attempt to remake China in the 1960s and exterminate all knowledge and loyalty to China's history and traditional society. Part of that process was/is self/cricicism and public apologies and humiliations, like the "truth and reconciliation commission" set up in South Africa by Mandela and his marxist African National Congress when he came to power.

The Woods Foundation Obama and Ayers are associated with is all about socio/political organizing and indoctrination (everyone who gets a grant must attend "education" seminars). And Wright's church is an example of Alinsky's plan to join socialistic programs with "progressive" churches to "change" society. Does Wright's church get any grants from Bush's "Faith based initiatives?

Finally, yes McCain hated Rumsfeld, because Rumsfeld opposed bringing back the draft. McCain wants several hundred thousand troops in Iraq and for us to stay there forever. McCain wants the draft back. And so does Obama, I suspect, as a mass indoctrination and regimentation institution through which collectivistic and Multicultural "values" can be instilled in the young.

Randy
I haven't sen any evidence that Sen mcCain wants a draft. I hope you're wrong. We could use a leader who would inspire young men to join up and serve. I don't know if he would or could do that. We haven't had anyone in office recently who tried to inspire others to serve their country in any way. It's been quite out of fashion in recent decades. I think President Bush missed an opportunity to galvanize the public after 9-11.

I also doubt whether Sen Obama wants a draft. I think he wants to substantially reduce our military, and has said so on various occasions. He would look to Nato or the UN instead. Great plan. (Not)

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