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Monday, November 05, 2007
Michael Barone :: Townhall.com Columnist
A Watershed Moment on Immigration
by Michael Barone
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October 2007 may turn out to be the month that immigration became a key issue in presidential politics. It hasn't been, at least in my lifetime.

The Immigration Act of 1965, which turned out to open up America to mass immigration after four decades of restrictive laws, wasn't one of the Great Society issues Lyndon Johnson emphasized in 1964. The Immigration Act of 1986, which legalized millions of illegal immigrants but whose border and workplace provisions have never been effectively enforced, was a bipartisan measure unmentioned in the debates between Ronald Reagan and Walter Mondale.

There was no perceptible difference on immigration between George W. Bush and Al Gore in 2000. Both favored a comprehensive bill with legalization and guest-worker provisions. John Kerry in 2006 and 2007 voted for immigration bills along the lines supported by Bush.

Now, things look different. In the Democratic debate on Oct. 30, Tim Russert demanded to know whether Hillary Clinton supported New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer's policy of issuing driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. The forthright answer: yes and no. A clarifying statement by the Clinton campaign later in the week did not much clarify things: a hedged yes. It was one of several issues on which Clinton seemed to take calculating and ambiguous non-positions. But it is one that may have major reverberations in the presidential campaign -- and in congressional races, as well.

The reason is that the Democrats -- and Bush -- are out of line with public opinion on the issue. That became clear as the Senate debated a comprehensive immigration bill in May and June. Most Republicans and many Democrats, in the Senate and among the public, turned against the bill. Supporters of the bill tended to ascribe that to something like racism: They just don't like having so many Mexicans around.

But if you listened to the opponents, you heard something else. They want the current law to be enforced. It bothers them that we have something like 12 million illegal immigrants in our country. It bothers them that most of the southern border is unfenced and unpatrolled. It bothers them that illegal immigrants routinely use forged documents to get jobs -- or are given jobs with no documents at all.

You don't have to be a racist to be bothered by such things. You just have to be a citizen who thinks that massive failure to enforce the law is corrosive to society.

That was apparent to me as I listened to a focus group of Republican voters in suburban Richmond, Va., conducted by Peter Hart for the Annenberg School of Communications. One voter after another complained that the immigration laws were not being enforced. None of them made any derogatory remarks about Latino immigrants -- two said they admired how hard they work. They don't want to see Latinos banished from this country. They want the immigrants here to be legally here.

Which leaves Democratic politicians and political candidates out on a pretty flimsy limb. Most of them reflexively back a comprehensive bill, and some of them (like Bush and a number of Republicans backing such a bill) have dismissed opponents as racists.

Most Democrats have also been backing bills extending various benefits to illegal immigrants, like the Dream Act for college education for illegals brought over as children. There are appealing arguments for such bills. But most voters reject them. And most voters certainly reject driver's licenses for illegal immigrants. That was one of the issues that led to the recall of Gov. Gray Davis in California in 2003.

The Republican presidential candidates have taken note. Only John McCain, a longtime backer of a comprehensive bill, stands apart, and he concedes that voters are demanding tougher enforcement. In the special congressional election in Massachusetts on Oct. 5, the Republican was able to hold the Democrat to 51 percent by stressing immigration as one of his two top issues.

Other Republicans are likely to echo that theme next fall. And the Democratic presidential nominee (unless Chris Dodd gets the nod) is going to have to explain why she or he believes it's a good idea to give illegal immigrants driver's licenses.

The last several Democratic nominees could have said that they're just taking the same position as their Republican opponent. The 2008 nominee won't be able to say the same of hers or his (unless McCain gets the nod).

"The centrality of illegal immigration to the current discontent about the direction of the country may be taking us back again to a welfare moment," write the shrewd Democratic strategists James Carville and Stanley Greenberg. Yup.

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About The Author
Michael Barone is a Fox News Channel contributor and co-author of The Almanac of American Politics. He is Senior Political Analyst for the Washington Examiner and a Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a Fox News Channel contributor and co-author of The Almanac of American Politics.
 
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The MSM line
The battle for open borders is taking place in the context of a larger cultural battle.

The Main Stream Media says there is a race problem. The MSM says the race problem will be solved when the third world pours into white countries and only into white countries.

England is more crowded than Japan or China, but nobody says Japan or China will solve the race problem by bringing in millions of third worlders and 'assimilating' with them.

Everybody says the final solution to this race problem is for white countries and only white countries to "assimilate," i.e., intermarry, with all those non-whites.

What if I said there was this race problem and this race problem would be solved only if hundreds of millions of non-blacks were brought into black countries and onlyinto black countries?

How long would it take anyone to realize I'm not talking about a race problem. I am talking about the final solution to the black problem?

And how long would it take any sane black man to notice this and what kind of psycho black man wouldn't object to this?

But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a Nazi who wants to kill six million Jews.

They say they are anti-racist. What they are is anti-white.

Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white. Anti-racists support open borders to destroy America's white culture.

What becomes of our country....
if 12 million people can openly flout our laws? If you insult people's intelligence by calling them racist for wanting the rule of law, how can you maintain any credibility as a nation? How do you keep your citizens from going crazy when you force them to believe what they know is illogical?

Barone
it sounds like you side with the Dems on this issue and are just clenching your teeth to prevent a "Graham" chastisement of the voters.

I can thank you for one thing, if true, we see that it was the 2nd worse president in history that started this ball rolling in 1965, LBJ. It has always been a Lamocrat working hand in glove with a RINO. Who was the RINO in 1965?

Illegal Aliens
are the elephant in the parlor for 08. The election is a long way off. Its likely even the non-responsive DC feather merchants will realize that fat campaign contributions don't translate into votes when the public is united against a policy clearly unlawful and against the public weal. The voters have the chance to take control. We must bite the bullet and face the fact that no matter what they say, a representative that supports amnesty for millions of law breakers does not have the best interests of Americans at heart. Select immigration law enforcement hardliners in the primaries and toss out the pols who refuse to support the best interests of their constituents. We need to see some new faces in congress. And a few employers who systematically and deliberately hire illegal aliens so they can abuse them financially should be in jail.

the next step in Congress...
...to save America will be the SAVE Act (Secure America with Verification and Enforcement). The SAVE Act would eventually require every employee in America to go through the E-Verify system. This internet system provides employers with an inexpensive, quick, and accurate way to verify that employees are not illegal aliens. Watch for it and support people in Congress who support it as it progresses. Its goals are supported by numbersusa, the leading group trying to save America from the ILLEGAL invasion:

http://www.numbersusa.com/index

The SAVE Act by Rep. Heath Shuler (D-N.C.) has gotten another big boost with the co-sponsorship of Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-Colo.) The courageous Democrats pushing the SAVE Act are standing up to their pro-amnesty national Party leadership and Presidential candidates. Most of the Democrats who are likely to be in competitive races next year are getting behind this bill. The courageous Republicans who are signing onto the SAVE Act are setting aside partisan maneuvering for next year's elections. These Republicans who are serious about actually solving the illegal immigration problem know that nothing is going to get better soon unless they can find a lot of Democrats who are willing to join in the fight. Heath Shuler's SAVE Act is the best opportunity in a very long time for that to happen.

You ARE right on this one
Illegal aliens are going to be the deciding issue in 08. Enforcing our laws will be demanded of anyone seeking office. And the voters WILL KNOW your previous stand on the issue, so don't even bother to lie, flip , etc IF you don't agree - don't bother running.

What I DO want to know from mr barone is this:
was it a watershed moment BECAUSE it happened, or because it happened to hillary? Or is it the vast grassroots effort that is the "moment" you speak of? You make it sound so petty by saying "moment".


lodestar
Its not that i am against a system that makes it easier to verify the citizenship status of a new hire. The point is that NO law, NO fence is worth a plugged nickel if not enforced. It is already against the law to hire an illegal alien. SAVE may make it easier to enforce, but would do nothing to actually immplement enforcement. This is the job of the Chief Executive, the POTUS. The illegal alien mess lies directly at the door of recent presidents, going all the way back to the sainted Ronnie. When the laws were enforced, when gun battles between the Border Patrol and would-be border violators resulted in promotions for the best shots in the BP, the illegal alien problems were minor. Now the enforcers go to jail. Just what do you suppose is the level of enforcement at our borders now? Its not really a legislative problem, its an executive branch problem and Bush is the main culprit.

welcome to reality, Barone
it took you long enough to understand the US voting public on this!
opponents to the rule of law principles of the USA, the open borders "globalists" salivating for the final end of a sovereign USA, the petty greed driven business community, the corrupt and ideologically bankrupt Democrats and RINOs,and all the rest that can raise nothing but their lame "racists"....and NOW "security" buzz word attacks upon the Citizens of the USA who, in their unwavering sense of sanity and reality, REJECT the silent INVASION, better watch and learn once and for all in 2008....and Dicky Durbin you should be one to be booted out, not only for your persistent efforts to legalize a foreign INVASION but many more anti-USA remarks and stands like the outrages you have thrown against the PATRIOTS in uniform you DEFEND your sorry politician's ask!

Is Barone smelling the cafe?
Barone is an open borders globalist whose writings had been supporting all of those purported good things that ILLEGALS working here were supposedly doing for us. Now perhaps he seems to be realizing that Middle America does not see the ILLEGAL invasion in the same light as the remote, plutocratic "elites" inside the beltway. About 3/4 of Americans when polled honestly about this feel STRONGLY that we need to enforce existing immigration laws and seall the border:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/cur rent_events/immigration/immigration_bill_failure_proves_ras mussen_s_first_law_of_politics

Furthermore, consciousness of the pernicious social pathologies which are concomitant with the pervasion of ILLEGALS is growing everywhere. We DO NOT NEED Sanctuary City Rudy, Sen. Juan McQuisling, or the Huckster to give us more RINO, open borders globalism. Been there, done that with Presidente Jorge! Seal the border, insist that English be the ONLY language used, interpret the 14th Amendment as intended (children of ILLEGAL madres are NOT subject to our jurisdiction-- just as children of diplomats are not citizens), and stop jobs and services going to ANYONE without a legal right to be here. The SAVE Act in Congress is the next step-- see discussion below.

NYC7USA1
Come on and admit that you are a Liberal, "open borders" troll attempting your "racism" magic. You don't even "spew" it like a real US White Supremacist!

lodestar
I rather think it is time that the entire 14th Amendment be rejected as the illegally adopted political propaganda it always has been and replaced with a similar, but uncorruptable Amendment adopted in strick accordance with US Constitutional guidelines, ergo all measures of law dependent upon the existing 14th Amendment would be rendered moot and require revisitation of their defining issues by the US Courts.

A bone to pick?
Someone help me out here. I keep hearing Democrats and Democrat ideas as "Democratic". Isn't Democratic a philosophy on government and NOT the party?

One paragraph begins, "Which leaves Democratic politicians ...". Shouldn't that state, "Which leaves Democrat politicians ...". I'm no grammar scholar, but everytime I hear the word democratic in reference to a Democrat, it just annoys me.

charlie
I agree, it's time for the 14th to be radically rewritten. If it had been debated, passed, and ratified in as legal manner it probably would have been written better. That however, doesn't mean that the liberals on the Supreme Court wouldn't have found some other way to dotheir damage. I guess you would have to count the lines of text in the Constitution to see how many penumbras there are.

What we really need is a way to reign in the Supreme Court. Now that would be an amendment worth considering.

Illegal Immigration
is a nightmare. Our schools, prisons, roads, and health services are broken because of this! We need another Ellis Island.

Try teach a 16 year-old, who only has a third grade reading level, and then being slammed because the student cannot pass the proficiency tests.

Additionally, I have had many Hispanic students state that whites cannot live without them to clean our homes, mow our yards, and build our homes. What bull. Many Hispanics are far more racist than 98% of the Whites I know.

I have zero sympathy. Mexico needs to fix itself and stop dumping its poor into our overstretched infrastructure.

Having grown up in Los Angeles
I was fortunate to have many friends from a variety of ethnic backgrounds. I consider my second ethnicity as Mexican even though I'm a Heinz 57 varitey with no Mexican ancestry. It's funny to think about now, but I don't remember ethnicity ever being a hinderance to bonds and friendships I had.

It pains me now to read crap like that posted in all caps by NYC7USA1. I truly believe the majority of us merely want the rule of law enforced. But with the NYC7 types around, it's too easy to paint us all with that same broad brush and put us on the defensive.

NYC7USA1, your type is not respected or desired here. You are probably past the point of being helped with your special brand of hate, so please, take is somewhere else. We don't want it here.

The laws used to state
that if a legal alien became a public charge, accepted welfare they would be deported, I suspect that is still on the books.
As are the other laws including the ones about health issues.
Now, the pols pander to them and want to reward their illegal activities by giving them drivers licences so they can vote, remember the motor voter law was brought about by the other clinton.
Cut off welfare to able bodied people, enforce the laws against employing illegals and these aliens will go home.
Then the "work Americans will not do" will be done by the slugs who are sucking off the rest of us.

Slow Down - Ease Up On Barone
Barone is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. So he has the proper credentials to be "for" immigration -- with or without citizenship. The CFR is for open borders. Gingrich and Klintoon were the primary ones to get the NAFTA treaty. But of course, they were in good company, e.g., Bush. The Trilaterals and Bilderbergs are spread nicely around our government and throughout commerce. For example, Robert Rubin, one of Klintoon's best, who is the new chief of Citicorp (largest bank), is a member. Anti-illegals are referred to as racists. Being illegal is the key word, not who they are or where they are from.

It's Not Just Border Security
Fred Thompson is the only candidate (exception Tom Tancredo) with a detailed immigration platform. I was especially pleased that he even mentions visa overstays, which I NEVER hear. It's always just "border security" from the candidates and why is that? It's because the TV cameras can show people scrambling over the border easier than they can show the hurt to our hospitals and schools or the fiscal impact to the American taxpayer from illegal immigration so all we get is border security TV news. So candidates like Sanctuary City Rudy and others have had a very narrow immigration platform. The biggest plus for Fred Thompson is that he crafted his detailed immigration stance (on his website under Issues) BEFORE Hillary imploded during the debate. Now, I suppose the other candidates will say something, too, but I was an undecided Republican voter and said the first top tier candidate (has to be someone with a shot at beating Hillary) that hits a home run with illegal immigration is going to get my vote and that looks like it will be Fred Thompson and I don't give a rodent's butt about how the media or Dick Morris has painted him.

Charlie,
You are exactly correct about NYC???. Just a troll playing idiotic games.

The Constitution and politics
Much of the immigration chaos came from Federal court rulings and the threat of lawsuits regarding enforcement of the 1986 law. It is illegal to deny employment based on 'citizenship status' . Such denial has been deemed discrimination and a violation of 'civil rights'.

Amendment 14 must be modified, at least to include a requirement that at least one parent be a proven citizen of the USA before a newborn is given citizenship. The Amendment was written to insure that persons freed from slavery could not be denied their rights as citizens. It was not intended to provide citizenship to illegal alien trespassers. There should be no provision for anchor babies and extended families unless it is conditionally limited to spouse and children.

The INTENT of the Constitution and Bill of Rights has been ignored in so many laws, policies and judicial decisions, it is easy to see that the INTENT of one or more additional Amendments could also be ignored by government employees, elected or appointed.

I have not read the proposed SAVE act, but if it does not require job applicants to have a valid SSAN before they can obtain or retain jobs other than in the military, I don't know if it will be fully effective.

Most states consider it a felony to provide false information in order to get 'benefits' from government. Job applicants should be required to make a sworn statement that the information they provide that goes to the IRS and SSA (by Law) accurately applies to themselves. After all, they are applying for the ‘benefit’ of employment. They should be charged with both felony perjury and attempted fraud if they willfully provide false or faked data.

Of course, it will mainly be up to elected politicians to make these changes and to see that existing laws are enforced. Unless we send a clear message that they won’t be elected or re-elected unless they support such changes, nothing will change except to get worse.

For Radium Chromide
(As that's what your handle translates in Elements table).

It's also notable that many of the so-called anti-racists are themselves racist--most notable examples being photo-op-Jesse and Twaddle-Brawley-Al.

The comments of Putrid (aka "Patrick") and pretend-military-hellhound (aka "Military Lovin Dogg"), particlulary on the "La Raza" article by Amanda Carpenter, also fall into such category (as Al and Jesse).

To note that "La Raza" translates as "the race"--which means that this evil org practices the very crime of which it accuses those favouring enforcement of immigration laws.

Comprehensive Immigration Enforcement


We need Comprehensive Immigration Enforcement, not reform. We need to restore respect for the law and the faith of the American people that their government is not selling them out. Amnesty for the illegal aliens is also amnesty for the corrupt companies who have been employing them. Money trumps everything, including love of country. Multi-nationals have no loyalty to country by definition, they see us as a market, not a nation. They see people as workers, documented or undocumented, no difference. If they can't send the work to where the labor is cheaper, then they want to bring the cheap labor here. If citizenship becomes meaningless, this is no longer The United States of America.

If we love our Constitution and our representative Republic and we intend to keep it we must not surrender our sovereignty or abandon the rule of law. Profits must not supercede security. We should not create a new path to citizenship. We have a path to citizenship, more generous than any other country, illegal aliens have ignored it and bad choices do have consequences.

GOP Litmus Test
"The Republican presidential candidates have taken note. Only John McCain, a longtime backer of a comprehensive bill, stands apart, and he concedes that voters are demanding tougher enforcement."

What a joke, McCain's new position (which is little different from his old position) is basically identical to Rudy and the Huckster -- Enforcement first and then after some bogus declaration that the border is secure, here comes the AMNESTY! This issue has the potential to reinvigorate the GOP for the next Presidential election, IF we choose the right candidate. The selection of Rudy as our GOP nominee for President would totally waste the advantage that the GOP has on this issue because he clearly advocates for amnesty. Regardless of where you stand on Iraq and the War on Terror, you have to admit that a campaign focused primarily on carrying on the Bush legacy stands little chance for success.

Do not vote for any Republican candidate that will not state in clear and concise terms that he will never grant amnesty (regularization, path to citizenship, normalization or whatever they try to euphemistcally call amnesty) to the invaders. This has to be a litmus test from which any GOP candidate instantly cedes their viability if they are unwilling to make the pledge.

Sammy
No Amnesty in clear unflinching words is as good a litmus test as any. Such a declaration would win my vote. I don't hear it from Rudy, and only second hand from Hunter, Tancredo and Fred. Is it the media's fault? I listen to Rush and Sean and Neal fairly often and although i have heard them decry illegal immigration, never have i heard them say which candidates are most clearly pro or con. Who do you like?

I SAY AGAIN: Hunter!
The one thing we can do as i see it, is tell EVERYONE you know to go to Hunters website and read up on him! At the very least he WILL build the fence and slow things down! We are really left no other choice as Hunter is the ONLY one who has NOT flipped or flopped on the border issue and if you read on his website you will find other things you will like about him! I know I did!
We need to CLOSE the border off and it needs to be done YESTERDAY!!! And if for this peso george and the demos want to call me a racist, that's ok, they can kiss my bum

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

Frog,
I was raised in a highly hispanic area as well, El Paso, Texas. My jr high school was nothing but hispanics with the exception of myself and a handful of others. I still have one excellent friend from that school. She doesn't consider herself Mexican at all but American of hispanic descent. She speaks English and refuses to speak spanish. However, she was in the minority. I saw racist attitudes toward anyone not hispanic (mostly toward my white brother and mother) that would boil your blood. I have also been a victim of this practice. My mother is now DEAD thanks to illegals. I just attended the funeral of another dear mother murdered-MURDERED-by an illegal. So, don't even TRY to convince me illegals are harmless and only want to seek a better life. That is a LIE! And before you start in on racism, THIS IS NOT ABOUT RACE! It is about ATTITUDE and ACTIONS taken by illegals. They ARE destructive and more racist than they want you to know. They are LIARS, THIEVES and MURDERERS! Not all of them are 'latino' either. You better open your eyes to this very real threat, Frog, or you may end up FROGSTEW!

Shaggy
If Mr. Buck is doing better, and I hope it continues to date, why are you in such a bad mood today? Why are you in a bad mood every day? You need a vacation, Shags. And we need closed borders.

Savage99
Savage99, I like Tancredo and Hunter (even contributed to Tancredo's campaign). Unfortunately, they aren't going anywhere. Fred Thompson has hands down the best official position of any GOP candidate -- he even has remedies for our seriously flawed legal immigration system which few others are willing to touch. Romney mostly says the right things now, though his history is somewhat circumspect. Still, if Romney is nominated I believe that I will vote for him.

Here's what we know about Giuliani...

- He supports amnesty (he calls it regularization)

- He finds the task too overwhelming to rid our country of the illegals already here

- He was a sanctuary city mayor

- He doesn't want to burden business with the task of veryifying their worker's status

- He doesn't consider illegals criminals even though they all necessarily have to commit some form of ID fraud, document fraud, SS fraud, and/or tax fraud.

- He wants to increase legal immigration and supports "guest" worker plans

Sorry, I just can't vote for that record and those positions.


It's 30 Million, not 12 Million
Michael Barone was for amnesty. The WSJ and other pro-amnesty pundits are still in denial but Barone must be seeing the truth even though he doesn't like it.

Illegal immigration MUST be the issue in 2008 or it will be too late to save our country.

AHA!
MLD SHOWS HIS TRUE RACIST COLORS!!! He blames WHITES for his pathetic existence! Yanno what mld??? You are a DISGRACE to EVERY American! You think demoncrats give a damn about your hide? You want the government to pat you on the head and tell you don't worry-we'll take care of ya? AT WHOSE EXPENSE????? OURS! You are a freeloader, good-for-nothing detriment to society, MLD.

HUNTER 2008


Securing the border and enforcing the law is the only way we get to keep our rule of law, our representative Republic, and our Constitution. We must elect a President who WILL secure the border and enforce the law. If citizenship becomes meaningless, this will no longer be the United States of America.

The so-called "top tier" will not get out the voters necessary for a GOP win. Increasing turnout is the key. Give people something to vote for. Not just the lesser of two evils. Won't work this time. People are fed up with the inundation of illegal aliens. They would come out in droves for the clear choice of D=amnesty or R=enforcement. They will stay home if they both equal amnesty.

There is a huge majority of American citizens waiting for someone to pledge to uphold the laws and secure the borders, let's not ignore them any more.

http://www.gohunter08.com

12 Million.?.?.?.?...........

......If you think 30 million plus you are close to real numbers. Most of us know there are at least 30 million. Don't let that stupid 12 million number stand. Call the author out every time they use that number. Does 10,000 a day sound right. It is. Do the math.............. The word is Tsunami........

immigrants
the issue is legal vs illegal. This notion that illegals who have broken our laws to come here are somehow entitled to benefits that we don't even give our own citizens is total insanity. Giving illegals access to servcices for which they have not paid for is a sure road to bankruptcy. The coziness of politcians to business who in their quest for profits will offer jobs to illegals for $3.00 an hour with no benefits rather than pay mimimum wages with benefitsd to legals and citizens is beyond the pale. But worse of all is the president who has taken an oath to defend our nation against foreign invasion acting as a national cheerleader encouraging illegals to steal into our country claiming they will take jobs that americans won't. The president and congress must uphold their oath they swore to defend. It is far cheaper to round up the illegals, return them to their country of origin than face the trillions of dollars it will cost working americans to fund all the services they are now stealing and will continue to abuse in the future.

Rudy's Answer to Illegal Aliens


Pretty much the same as Hillary and GWB. Lip service to border security and "Comprehensive Immigration Reform", amnesty. We tried that once in 1986 and Reagan thought it the worst mistake of his terms. We now have 10 times the number of illegal aliens. We will either elect a President who will uphold the laws or one who will change them to accomodate the illegal aliens. If we do the latter, we are voluntarily committing national suicide. Hunter opposed the 1986 amnesty and has been fighting against every attempt since.

Fred Thompson
I still don't trust Fred. He still has Spencer Abraham as a high level advisor. Abraham supports jihadis and is for open borders. Why would he want someone like that on his staff?

Get rid of Abraham and I'll consider Fred.

distinctions
All men are created equal.
All women are created equal.
All races are created equal.

All cultures are not equal.

Culturism is not racism. Multi-culturalism is toxic and suicidal in anything other than minute doses.

While all have their own strengths and weaknesses, and can learn and grow from each other, some cultures are indeed BETTER than others--and should be recognized and defended as such. Simply judge them by their fruits. Which produces poverty, which produces prosperity? Why is it that everyone wants to get into America and Europe? Duh, because we're (still) orderly, rich, and peaceful. And why are we orderly, rich, and peaceful? Duh. Because we're not (yet) the freaking dysfunctional Third World!!!!

It's called democratic free-market capitalism. It's called Private property, Free enterprise, and the Rule of law.
It's not socialism.

Oh, and people know how to behave.

‘Made in China’ Label

TRADE, IMMIGRATION AND WORKERS WHO WINS?

WATCH

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/made-in-china-labe l





Sammy
Yeah Rudy looks bad. If the GOP actually makes him the candidate, the only possible reason to vote for him would be he might, or may not, put constructionists on the SCOTUS. My vote would be a tough decision. I do not find Fred appealing, but at least he's a cipher. How maddening this seems to be the best we can do at present. I haven't given up on Hunter, but its a looong shot for him.

for lodestar
lodestar writes: "children of ILLEGAL madres are NOT subject to our jurisdiction"

Go argue that with the Government of Mexico, which has washed its hands of all those who have fled their country to come to America.

You are NOT going to get what you want without a new war with Mexico.

Loribme
I apologize for not making it clear in my post above, but I am NOT a supporter of illegal immigration. I completely support border protection. I was attempting to separate those like NYC7, who appear to be racist, from those of us who want border security for security's sake. Not because we are anti-Mexican.

One of best friends parents immigrated here from Mexico in the early 1960's. He is a naturalized American as are his parents, while is younger sister was born here. He failed first grade because he could not understand English. They had a family rule. They would speak Sapnish only in their home. Once they walked out the front door, they would speak only English. They were proud to have been afforded the opportunity to live here. In fact, my friends younger sister even got in a fist fight because she didn't want to called Chicano. She was a proud American with Mexican ancestry.

I lived in Carson, California, which borders Wilmington, an area with an extremely large Hispanic population. I had more problems there with Mexicans, than I ever did with black gangs in Compton, another neighboring city. I was fortunate enough to have friends of all ethnicities so I was not branded with malice toward a particular race. Some I peopel I knew were not as fortunate as I and had only the bad experiences. You can guess how they feel now.

aspacia...!!!
Another teacher sick to death of the Mexican invasion! Cool! Another conservative in the education field? Cool! I'm an art teacher and it's amazing when people are dumbfounded that I'm not a stupid liberal!!

I wish more people would not only address the illegality of this invasion but the fact that not only are they STEALING identities and our entitlements...but they're sending OUR money back to their beloved, corrupt government...it's their largest source of revenue. Why didn't Glen Beck, O'Reilly (who's next to worthless on this issue) and others mention to Fox that THAT is the reason he wants his people exported to the US?

Savage99
Savage99, I personally won't be able to live with myself if I know that I in any way had any part and responsibility in selling out my country. That is what I feel like would happen if I voted for Rudy when he later grants amnesty. I just can't do it!

But I understand those that don't want to be so dogmatic and decide to vote the lesser of two evils. There is really no easy answer that fits everyone. I would still argue however, that the few differences between a President Clinton and a President Giuliani would be more than made up by the GOP members of congress fighting against the liberalism of Clinton instead of supporting the liberalism of Giuliani. I also think that a President Clinton could set the stage for a big GOP advance in Congress whereas a President Giuliani would be a disaster for the GOP congress in much the same way that Jorge Bush has been.

BTW, if you like Hunter then vote for Hunter. Don't let supposed practicalities and polls dictate your vote.

Hard to change the 14th Amendment
A proposed modification to the 14th Amendment sounds nice in theory.

But whenever somebody proposes a Constitutional amendment as part of a political strategy, beware: They're not being realistic.

The Constitutional bar on ratification of amendments is set very high: 2/3 of both houses of Congress + 3/4 of the state legislatures. And since half the states in America are Blue States, with powerful liberal Democrats controlling their legislatures, the chance that you could get half the Blue States in America to pass a restrictive anti-immigration amendment is slim.

It's the same with any other proposed Amendment on hot-button divisive social issues. The social conservatives' pet proposed Marriage Amendment would fail the same way: You could never get half the Blue States to vote in favor of it.

fair deal
Here's a modest proposal: We'll let 12 million illegal immigrants stay--in EXCHANGE for Baja California. Which would of course become a spectacularly successful 51st State.

Oh, don't like it? Violates your laws? Violates your sovereignty? Too bad.

That's been the message to us.

for FROG
FROG writes: "It pains me now to read crap like that posted in all caps by NYC7USA1."

It pained me even more to read the blatantly racist crap by RaCr--did you read his post?

I intend to flag EVERY post that talks about "white culture" as offensive.

That's not just aimed at Hispanics.

If RaCR wants to preserve our "white culture," he almost certainly has no use for blacks, Asians or Jews either.

The GOP expelled David Duke years ago, and we should continue the practice of flushing racists out of our conservative movement.

I would be proud to have Hispanic neighbors who came to this country illegally.

Do you fear the immigrants' legal status and lack of respect for our laws and Constitution, or do you just fear their ethnicity? If the answer is the latter, you're not welcome in our conservative movement.

Sammy
About Mitt: he flips

http://www.eyeon08.com/2007/05/30/border-security-group-att acks-romney-for-flip-flopping-on-immigration/

he flopped!

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

MLD
and after 9/11, there were way more American flags waving off of fire escapes than downtown in the white sections of town.

Only thing I can say about this is BS!

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

There's still a year left
for the ILLEGAL immigration issue to blow up in the face of the Democrats.

The media in colusion with the leftist, cover up any information that would outrage the public and cause a ground swell of lash back.

Like what? I'm glad you asked:

"We also know that the Washington Times and other news sources reported illegal alien and drug smugglers have been setting intentional fires on the border, to distract Border Patrol and our security forces."

(from ALIPAC e-mail alert.)

http://www.alipac.us/article2281.html

Frog
Frog, NYC7USA1 is almost certainly a lib trying to chum the water for other outrageous statements. He probably just wants to cower conservatives who feel strongly against this invasion by making them feel that this position is somehow the province of racists and bigots. He/she wants you to feel the guilt and slime of being a part of a site and thread that contains such infantile, repugnant, and illiterate statements and make you think that perhaps your position is one inhabitated by other such losers. My suggestion is just to ignore this idiot.

mld nyc excuse for an adult
again you fail to understand the issue. It is those who enter the country legally and follow are laws that are welcome. Those who steal across are borders in the dark of night and break are laws, these illegals are not welcome. You libs always see them as cute and cuddley like another pet dog but fail to understand the vast economic cost to america. But then libs as a group hate what america stands for. Obviously your daddy the ambulance chasing pasitic lawyer never explained the rule of law in comic book form for you to understand. If our government has the right to know about it's own legal citizens why do these illegals and their pathetic enablers like you think that some 20-40 million illegals have the right to be here without any full understanding of who they are. illegals represent a threat no only to bankrupting are social services but there are also criminals and health risks stealing across our borders. But perhaps you and the rest of your liberal ilk refuse to underatand the meaning of national sovereignty. That mexico on our southern border next to a technologically advanced country could remain no more than a third world toliet shows their govt has not prepared it's citizens for anything other than to seek life elsewhere. The aveerage illegal has a 7th grade education and no fluency in our langugage. Yet these libs think they will supply the answers to our economy. But the libs welcome this trash here but then expects the earners to pay for everything they plunder once they are here.

Shaggy
believe it or not, we don't like to see anyone suffer!!!
You write:
"They didn't sneak into the country but overstayed their visas. I understand why people get upset over law breakers - and forged documents are outrageous, but these are real people - "
Exactly, shaggs. These are very real people. And I would say that I wish they were legal. But, lets say all the poor people, not to their fault, all robbed banks to feed their families. Does it make it right to do that? NO! It doesn't make it right. We just feel that we should follow the law.
OH! Glad to here about the pooch!

seriously
Immigrants and their descendents built America. Immigrants are good people. Illegal immigrants are good people. Our hearts break for them. Anti-illegal does not mean anti-ethnic or anti-immigrant. But the reality is simply that we cannot take in and welcome everyone who (understandably) wants in, but most especially those who break their way in.

Much better to turn the lens and put the focus of reform back on the places from which they come. That's what will really help everyone in the long run...

Doc
Doc, better a flip flopper than someone who steadfastly remains on the WRONG side of the issue. If Romney continues to state loudly and strongly against the invasion and amnesty as he has then it would be very difficult for him to sell us out later especially given the anger and certainty of the electorate on this issue. At some point we have to give our faith and hope to one of these guys to follow through with what they are saying -- what other choice do we have?. Giuliani just offers no faith and no hope on the invasion and amnesty.

Look, if it were up to me Tancredo would be the next President, but at some point we have to bow to reality. Even Thompson, who I feel has the best position among the "top tier" candidates on immigration has a history of supporting some of the "mini" amnesties. But again, at some point I have to take the man at his word and hope that he follows through. I live in North Carolina and I will have no say on who will be the GOP nominee because we are so late in the game. I'm just looking at who I could support among the possibilities and I'm not really an active advocate for anyone.

SteveL writes:
Do you fear the immigrants' legal status and lack of respect for our laws and Constitution, or do you just fear their ethnicity? If the answer is the latter, you're not welcome in our conservative movement.

I will second that. Fact is most con-servs just do not want our system overburden, and we have respect for rule of law! Which sadly does not seem to be the case with most of the people running for office! One thing most “republicans” do not get is when peso george, mitt, or rudy gets the thing rammed down our throats, it will probably spell the end of the party!

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com


Them There Illegals
They are illegal ALIENS! One thing that everyone seems to overlook is this: Backers of bills & priviliges for illegal aliens are CREATING racism. People once accepted most Hispanics as good people, but not now. People in border states admired how hard entire families worked, even knowing a lot of them were here illegally (Wetbacks).

People knew they were not a drain on our social services. So, what if they got sick or injured? The person or business for whom they worked was responsible for their welfare.

John McCain a supporter for immigration enforcement?!?!? HA! Don't forget that McCain-Fiengold started the whole "comprehensive immigration" mess. Don't forget McCain fought hard to give illegal aliens "rights" reserved for Americans.

The ONLY candidate for ANY political party supporting deportation of illegal aliens and enfforcement of immigration laws (that I have heard) is Fred Thompson. Mr. Fred was saying that LONG before he became a candidate.

Ask yourself one question concerning concerning the various presidential candidates and their stand on illegal aliens: "Do I believe he/she will do the right thing for American citizens?" If your answer is "NO", do NOT vote for or support him/her.

sammy
i would say that the changing attitudes of americans concerning the illegals has certainly caused repubs to rethink the issue. As long as they stayed under the radar many didn't pay any attention. When the numbers became so excessive, when it became apparent the problem was very serious. Swimmer kennedy assured america that the illegal problem was solved in 1986. 20 years later it is far worse. The dims have remained consistent on this issue, all illegals are not only welcome but should get increased benefits including citizenship. But repubs have listened to the public and want serious changes made. Securing the border and deporting the illegals are two necessary steps that need to be taken. Libs always think they are nimble on their feet and can adjust their attitudes and policies, and that repubs continue to get painted as locked into positions taken decades ago. The dims are so locked into the various victim groups they enable. The illegals are merely the latest group of victims the dims wish to enable and troll for votes to keep them in power

14th and myths
We really do not need to change the 14th Amendment to rid ourselves of this mess. The problem is the "interpretation" of the 14th Amendment by both the courts and the bureaucrats. There have been few actual cases, quoted by the illegal panderers, that the Supreme Court has ruled on with regard to immigrants and those issues. These cases are United States v. Wong Kim Ark and Plyler v. Doe for anchor babies and in Plyer for guarantee of due process because of the term "person" in both the 14th and 5th amendments.

The 14th Amendment NEVER intended for the children of illegals and other foreigners born in the U.S. to be given U.S. citizenship. The intent was people "under the control of the U.S.". This was even actually specified by the author of the amendment but that was still bypassed by the court when they said they do not have to consider the intent of the author, even when clearly spoken. Even given that the Supreme Court has wrongly used the 14th Amendment for incorporating illegals into the Constitution, they still have not incorporated the so called anchor babies. That is an unsupported act of the immigration and naturalization department. They cite Wong Kim Ark and Plyer but it is not true. Wong Kim Ark dealt with the children of LEGAL immigrants while Plyer dealt with educating illegal children but not citizenship. Plyer only mentions citizenship in a footnote that has NO binding authority. BTW, Plyer was also a case of bad decision by a liberal court.

All it would take is an interpretation that reverses Plyer and some people in INS that reinterpret the anchor baby scheme. As for legal immigrant and alien rights, they are a factor of international treaty and it would not be advantageous to change them. Illegals should only get "due process" to the amount required that they are determined to be illegals, then they should get a bus ride. Neither of these things requires a Constitutional Amendment.

Let them stay
Since illegal aliens won't self-deport, then let them stay here- provided that they come forward to be identified as being illegal.
The concept is simple.
Those that want citizenship will go home and do it right.
The leeches in human garb who have no interest in doing the right thing can stay as well, if they sign away any future "path to citizenship" and resign themselves to second class citizenship.
This means they will never have the right to vote.
Their children, those actually born here AFTER their parent\s register to be counted, will be citizens.
All children born before the date the law is signed will not.
This will stifle the anchor-baby debate as moot.
It will also prevent pols from profiting from their flaunting the will of the people by nullifying any chance of a huge new big-government friendly voting block by govt. fiat.
Anyone discovered to be illegal after the law passes will be deported,period.
Nobody asked these parasites to come here except other parasites, so I have no qualms about a two-tiered population I didn't ask for either.
These persons scuttled here "in the shadows", what happens to them is not their choice to make.
So sign up, pay fines, serve jail time, pay back taxes, and forget being anything but a produce picker with no future.

Sammy
Sorry but we all know how most politicians “keep” their campaign promises. Also I disagree that your vote would not count. I don’t know about how late your state votes, but if enough of us scream loud and strong with our votes, at the very least they will have to sit up and take notice! At best we can get Hunter or Tancredo the Nom and they WILL build the fence, and that is a good a place to start as any!

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

SteveL and Sammy
SteveL, no, I hadn't read the post by RaCr. I've never seen that moniker and blew right past their post. After reading it, I understand your concern. That kind of feces needs to be bled not only from TH, but the human race. Can you say retoractive abortion?

Sammy, you may be right about NYC. There are probably a lot more of those sheep in wolves clothing (yes, I reversed it on purpose for the particular type of idiot that uses that tactic here on TH). I personally am remiss at flagging posts unless it is WAY over the top. Most of the time it is to the benefit of the conservative movement to have these types reveal themselves.

When The President Says
It is just impossible to round up and deport 12 Million Illegals and we need to just let them stay here and be citizens.

When he said that what he was really saying was he was too incompetent to handle the job.

Anyone who says they cannot do the job does not need to be elected to office.

When the president calls the Minutemen "Vigilantes" he is speaking from fear of REAL Vigilantes.

Vigilantes appear in our history, from time to time. Vigilantes appear at those times when the government is so incompetent, corrupt or otherwise incapable of enforcing the laws. THAT IS WHEN VIGILANTES APPEAR, Mr. President.

Rethinking the Issue
Wildwest, I certainly agree with your 10:27 post. I will only add that not ALL Republicans have rethought the issue. McCain, Giuliani, and Huckabee all still support amnesty even though they have managed to windowdress some tougher talk around the issue to hide their amnesty support.

Your post is why I can support some of these other candidates (Thompson and Romney) whose past actions and statements are less than perfect, but whose positions now explicitly forsake any prospect for amnesty now or anytime in the future.

Sammy
Agreed again. The biggest reason NOT to vote for Rudy is i want a D after the name of the president when things go really bad, and my guess is about 50/50 inside the next ten years. If its Rudy or Hillary in 08, look out. A big shakeup, which i hope will be fueled by the immigration issue, may turn things around.

Airgun
Those are good points, but I would argue that we don't have to compromise with illegal aliens. How about we just say that if you're here illegally, we'll deport you, and your children, and then you will forever be barred from returning to the country. And, all jobs and social services, funded by U.S. taxpayers, are cut-off. I don't believe in negotiating with criminals.

For dave -- on the nail!
IMO, prosecurions (for treason) should start at President and Congress levels--it is noticeable that these have been amongst the most prominent in pushing shamnesty for malfeasant aliens.

My only regret is that I cannot suggest RETROACTIVE prosecution, especially of the dead abetters of such malfeasance--such as Ronald Reagan (remember his 1986 shamnesty?).

Doc
Doc, I'm voting for Tancredo in the GOP primary unless there is a close contest between Giuliani and Thompson and/or Romney (in other words a candidate that at least now says he will never grant amnesty). I'm pretty much in an anybody but Giuliani mode in that scenario. It's not that I necessarily trust Thompson or Romney, but that I think the current political environment would make it very hard for them to reverse course once they become President.

My one problem with Hunter is that he seems to be singularly focused on the fence. I consider that one of the lesser tools to solving this problem and it has been one that amnesty supporters like Giuliani have jumped on as a smokescreen for their amnesty plans.

Hey Barone
Nice milqtoast article, seemingly written for one purpose: to try to reinforce that ridiculous number - 12 million, probably as a means to help, at least subconsciously, Amnesty proponents.

Historians will one day write that this was the most important issue of our time and yet everyone on the left is more than willing to accept a stupendously low figure provided by yet another incompetent and politically torn department of an incompetent government - the US Census Bureau.

Californians for Population Stabilization estimate 20 million to 38 million. Take the lower figure, add four or five "family" members, and we could easily by looking at 100 million new voters, resource users, etc, over the next two generations. The illegals certainly aren't volunteering their numbers to the census bureau. I suspect such has been suggested to them by La Rasa.

More than ever, this nation needs to stabilize its population and get its house in order, not plunge blindly into the biggest mistake of its life for the sake of big business who is eyeing those illegals as part of their "growth forever" plan to keep their stock values overinflated and the Dems, who will gladly sacrifice this nation and capitalism for temporary power.

Illgal Alien Bills Stats:
1986-Immigration and Reform Act..blanket amnesty for 2.7 million illegal aliens.

1994- Section 245(i) temproary rolling amnesty for 578 illegal aliens.

1997-estention of Section 245(i)

1999- Hatian Refugee Fairness amnesty for 125,000 illegals from Haiti

2000- The legal immigration Family Equity Act, which included a restoration of the rolling section 245(i) for 900,ooo illegal aliens.

Noone of these was associated with a reductuion
of illegal immigration.
Kennedy promiced in 1986 to secure the borders, and never again ask for an amnesty bill.

AMEN!
Loribme

You got it exactly right in your response to FROG.

OK, call me a racist! That's not a problem for me, because I don't trust Mexicans. I, too, have been victimized - bug not to the extent you have.

Hard workers? Most of them are, but they will also steal you blind if you don't watch them every minute. Violent crimes? Yo betcha! The Mexican culture is "macho" - the "man" is everything and females must be subjugated. They believe women/girls must provide "favors", and this lead to coercive &/or forcible rape. I could go on for hours, but suffice to say that violent crime as well as burglaries etc. have increased dramatically in cities, towns, and areas where illegals "nest".

Typo
Extention, not estention
None, not noone

Thank you Michael Barone!
Now was that so hard? It just is not a complicated issue. Now I would really like to see you write up an analysis on how bad party registrations really are. In the 2004 elections, Republicans accounted for 25.7% of votes cast while Democrats accounted for 32.6%. What are those numbers today? Are party registrations declining while voter registrations are climbing? That is what I'm hearing.

Heath Shulers SAVE act is a
great bill. Tancredo has already signed on to supporting it. We need to spread the word about it. Most people that read this will most likely already be signed up with http://www.Numbersusa.com, but if not, please go there and sign up for free e mail alerts on pending illegal immigration legislation. It makes it very easy to send e mails to your senators, and representatives. They already have close to 500,000 members, but we need more! Their is a new agjobs bill, that Feinstein is trying to sneak through. We need to stop it. Here is a link to several informative interviews on the issue of illegal immigration http://www.thepromiseofhome.com/Media/Interviews/tabid/69/ Default.aspx The Roy Beck, and Steve Camorota interviews are especially good.

wildwest writes:
But repubs have listened to the public and want serious changes made.

I am sure you are not talking about peso george and crew. Heck even 80-90% of republican candidates are right now only playing lip service to US. That WILL change this election, make no mistake about it. Even Lugar of Indiana I am sure is having serious doubts of his re-election when it comes time and he has held this “red state” office for 31 yrs. He was first elected to the U.S. Senate in 1976 and won a sixth term in 2006 with 87 percent of the vote, his fourth consecutive victory by a two-thirds majority. Then he starts showing his true colors by voting for amnesty, this will cost him in this red state!

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com



The 14th. Amendment...

...must be clarified by Congress, and subsequently the courts, before any truly "comprehensive" immigration reform can actually occur. Any thing less is nothing but an open border policy by another name.

Michael
I try to curb my impulse to respond to every article in townhall. I actually had to come back to this one. First and most important, it is not immigration. It is invasion. Any and all lawbreakers are wrong from the start and have no desire to become better. Lord knows there is no incentive to do so. If there had been any enforcement we would not be having this conversation. What has happened is shameful. We are being overwhelmed by this invasion.

Illegal aliens
murder 12 Americans a day, 4,380 per year

Illegal alien drunk driver kill 13 Americans per day. 4,745 per year

Illegal alliens acost 8 American children per day. 2,920 per year.

I realize Americans commit these types of crimes also, which is the argument libs give. But those committed by illegal aliens are 100 per cent preventable!!

ONLY TAXPAYERS SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO VOTE

.....Sometimes one has to think outside the box in a totally objective manner ...so I put my computer COLOSSUS on it and the following is a summary of the results ...

.....Why should citizens who don't pay taxes be allowed to vote? ...Won't they just vote for candidates who promise to raid the Treasury to provide them with more goodies at the expense of those who actually do pay taxes? ...

.....The Government should be treated as a large Corporation and the taxpayers are the shareholders ...so if a citizen pays $5,000 in taxes he owns 5,000 shares in the Corporation and his vote is weighted accordingly ...

.....To vote a citizen must bring to the polling place, a birth certificate, a photo ID and last years tax return ...his tax ID number (SS#) will also be his voter ID Number ...this will eliminate voter fraud and guarantee a fair election ...

.....But the rich will rule the Country you say? ...Excuse me but aren't they doing that now? ...Just the opposite ...the rich will no longer rule the country ...the taxpayers will ...many of the rich like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet set up trusts and foundations which allows them to shelter their money from being taxed ...therefore they will lose political power ...the citizens who pay the most in taxes will have the most to say about how the country is run because they will be the largest shareholders in the Government Corporation ...

.....Since the tax payers will have the power they will also be able to enforce fiscal responsibility and get rid of pork and spending on wasteful projects and useless programs ...because like any corporation executives their main concern will be the bottom line and excessive debt and deficits cannot be tolerated in a responsible Government
corporation .....COLOSSUS

Maybe it's time
for every state to sue AZ, NM, TX, FL and CA for the expense of caring for the millions of illegals that slip past their watch.

Loribme
I'm terrbily sorry to hear about your mom. It's hard enough to lose a loved one, but to suffer loss needlessly magnifies the pain. Please accept my sincerest and heartfelt sadness for the loss of you mother.

Please excuse my poor manners for not expressing my sentiments in my earlier post.

And another thing
as if anyone needs any more reasons to be alarmed at the invasion stampeeding across our southern border, go here:

http://www.corruptionchronicles.com/2007/09/_islamic_terror ists_arrested_a.html

Illegals are not the only thing coming across the border. Oh yea, and the government knows about it, but the politicians all have security forces and body guards. Thow the bums out.

doc
I wrote off the president long ago as anyone who would lead any charge to change. TGhe public spoke loudly when they stopped the shamnesty. At least the cnadidates are talking about the issue rather than ignoring it. The president to use another image, like nero fiddles while america loses it's direction. The dims frequently blame the repubs for two bush administrations but they share equal guilt in championing two even weaker candidates in gore and heinz-kerry. We can only hope that the repubs talking tougher on the illegals will follow through with solid plans. The dims want the illegals given citizenship without earning the right. Afterall how can you give citizenship to those who have already broken our laws. I wonder how many of those illegals given amnesty in 1986 ever came to understand all the things america has accomplished, or adapted our culture. I would bet that many still consider themselves mexicans first but enjoying the benefits that the copuntry gave them but they never earned

Monticup

Dead right. It's 30 plus million. I see the author of this column has had my post pulled out because I wrote the truth. My post is gone although I saw it with my own eyes after posting. There was nothing about it other than that simple truth. And I had the temerity to write him directly with the "good news" (sic), that they are no less than 30 million as every one with eyes knows.

There was nothing about my post to cause it to be pulled other than that simple truth. Now we know that Michael Barone does not want the truth posted in his columns.

Let's see if he also pulls this post.......


OK my post is posted, NOW.....
.....why would an author want a simple plainly written post with unvarnished truth, yes an opinion Mr Barone, like yours, as to figures that are being bandied about pulled.

You must be very touchy today.


per Janeen Peterson PhD part 1..
Now, in 2007 there is overwhelming evidence that we are being invaded by a foreign country, as was declared in 1982 by the following brazen Mexican Manifesto:

Illegals Climbing a Border Wall "A peaceful mass of people, hardworking, carries out slowly and patiently an unstoppable invasion, the most important in human history. You cannot give me a similar example of such a large migratory wave by an ant-like, stubborn, unarmed, and carried on in the face of the most powerful and best-armed nation on earth."

"But neither barbed-wire fences, nor aggressive border guards, nor campaigns, nor laws, nor police raids against the undocumented, have stopped this movement of the masses that is unprecedented in any part of the world."

"In 1950 they were called 'Pachucos' (half-breeds); today they are called 'Chicanos.' They have marked social and family characteristics, agility for adapting to the environment and for conquering a great region, once primitive and virgin, that belonged to our fatherland and we lost it. But it seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without the firing of a single shot, nor requiring the least diplomatic action, by means of a steady, spontaneous, and uninterrupted occupation."(1)

It is a clear and evident de facto war, totally ignored by our government. It is a war that has been carefully planned, blatantly conducted and arrogantly executed without a single change or deviation from the original 1982 'Mexican Manifesto.' All the while our government, from the president on down has allowed this massive invasion and chaos to continue for TWENTY-FIVE YEARS. Thus insanity reigns . . . but WHY?

per Jannen Peterson part 2..
How Mexico Wages Its de facto War . . .

1. By creating Mexican laws allowing dual citizenship.(1)
2. By legislating the right to vote in Mexican elections by absentee ballots mailed from America, approved in 2005.(1)
3. By promoting nationalism and Hispanic racism. The Mexican government their Hispanic-American shills, sponsor programs and practices that "upholds the political or economic domination of one race over another or others" which is the dictionary definition of RACISM.(1)
4. By working surreptitiously in concert with Hispanic organization and politicians here in America, Mexico pursues its 'reconquista' of American land, by actively and blatantly promoting the purist form or racism there is!(1)
5. By 'Meddling' in America's affairs in defiance of our laws: The Mexican government, continuously and blatantly colludes with Hispanic politicians, individuals, groups and organizations here in America, who act as their shills. Sadly and outrageously, nearly all of those Hispanic organizations receive funding, some in the millions, from the Ford Foundation, Carnegie Foundation and the Rockefeller Foundation, and many, many corporate 'others,' who want to keep that cheap labor flowing and fostering anarchy in America.(1)
6. By using Mexican shills and operatives within America including the racist Hispanic organizations like The National Council of La Raza (i.e., The Race, which is NOT a race), MALDEF, LULAC and MEChA, the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), and numerous American politicians and individuals of Hispanic descent. Last but not least, is the ACLU, which is headed by an Hispanic who first worked for, and was groomed by, both the Ford and Rockefeller Foundations.(1)

per Janeen Peterson part 3..
They are all constantly working 'behind the scenes' using our courts, Hispanic advisory counsels and other political access, not available to 'We the People', in order to eliminate any and all actions that might thwart or stop the illegal alien invasion of America that continues at a rate of 10,000 a day. Think about the access the National Council of La Raza (i.e., The Race) had during the creation of those several illegal alien 'amnesty' bills drawn up in secrecy, behind closed doors in 2007. Doors that were closed to 'We the People' but OPEN to the Hispanic pro-illegal alien enablers like the NCLR.(1)

What do you think those well-funded, Hispanic, anti-American, organizations will do as their numbers continue to increase through this unchecked illegal alien invasion? 'Without firing a shot' Mexico intends to win their 'de facto' war by leveraging those 'migrant' masses, to gain enough political power to shove their balkanizing, racist Hispanic agenda down the throats of ALL Americans!

Janeen Peterson Phd Harvard
http://www.stopthenorthamericanunion.com/Subversion.html

Read the full story at the above link and support this lady who is doing the work nobody else will.

The Mexican government, led by Vicente Fox, has arrogantly waged Mexico's de facto war by openly engaging many complicit Hispanic shills here in America who work assiduously to stop all those who would stand against them. Those shills work 'hand in glove' with the previously mentioned racist Hispanic organizations.(2-7)

In addition to the fascist government-corporate (public-private) and military-industrial collusion, other illegal alien 'aiders and abettors' who are working in concert to aid the invasion is a "fifth column of many people who act traitorously and subversively, out of a secret [or not so secret] sympathy, for the enemy of their country, in our country."(8)

Others members of the 'fifth column' include Hispanic 'aiders and abettors' like the Catholic church, greedy employers, and enablers such as the corporate media, inept politicians, major foundations like the Ford Foundation, the US Chamber of Commerce, American unions and many 'clueless' Americans.(9-12)

Vicente Fox

bluejacket
Thanks! I have been preaching this since 9-11 and its been brought up once by mainstream media, think there is a reason they quit talking about it?

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

And if you tee tee me off .....
..I WILL ADD TO THESE THREE.............


Inconvenient Truths About ILLEGALS
The truth is that over half of Hispanic ILLEGALS are low income and have only a 7th grade education, factors that correlate HIGHLY to pandemic crime and govt. assistance dependence and becoming substantial net users of tax dollars. The spread of Hispanic gangs alone is overwhelming evidence of their pernicious threat. By race, Hispanics have the highest school dropout rate, which in turn correlates to myriad social pathologies.

The facile myths of alleged benefits of ILLEGALS are belied by egregious, pervasive, corrosive realities: crime, drugs,
gangs, tax evasion, illegitimacies, welfare fraud, identity theft, barrio blight, school enervation, and socio-economic and cultural decimation. ILLEGALS DO NOT PROVIDE CHEAP LABOR-- their all-in socio-economic costs are STAGGERING... only a few owners benefit from ILLEGALLY employing them, and that "savings" is
NOT passed along. We will erode into a third world entitlement welfare state if we give ILLEGALS the vote, which will come before they get citizenship and accelerate the latter.

Build the wall... make English the official and ONLY language... require a tamper-proof I.D. for ANY non-citizen to function here... do NOT grant dirvers' licenses to ILLEGALS which is really a step toward voter fraud... enforce existing laws by REALLY cracking down on miscreant employers... allow local governments the right to deal with ILLEGALS... flatly prohibit any welfare for
ILLEGALS such as the families of anchor babies... properly interpret and apply the 14th Amendment as intended-- as with the children of diplomats born on American soil, ILLEGAL alien madres of anchor babies are NOT subject to our jurisdiction and should not be able to push out new citizens, then get in the welfare line.

Frog
I wish liberals like Frog would not post on this site.

Lodestar
I agree that they are not subject in the strict sense to our jurisdiction not withstanding the right to incarcerate or eject. Even Mexico says that where ever they go so goes Mexico. That they are Mexican citizens and subject to and recipients of Mexican protection and rights. The 14th should not apply unless they are legally in the U.S. jurisdiction.

If they are legally in the U.S.A. or it ships or aircraft or possessions then indeed it does apply, but not unless.

I find it mind-boggling that...
So much talk about the lack of border enforcement, and no one talks about possibly the biggest threat--Islamofascist terrorists sneaking into the country.
Also that the POTUS has us fighting a war against those same terrorists, and continually reminding us about the threat from terrorists, but seems oblivious to the threat of them coming right into the country over our porous borders.

Derek

That frog is a toad. Ignore toads they give you warts and are ugly besides..

lodestar
all sensible proposals. Libs believe this multi-cultural nonsense and it destroys our identity. The schools have successfully destroyed the teaching of history and we have a large segment of our population that has lost all basis for defending america. Only when the libs and their socialism are defeated will we again hope to regain our national identity. That explains why the left hates the right so much. They would rather surrender than defend our values

Derek and onceamarine?
Where in the world did you ever get the idea that I was liberal? What, in any of my posts, would cause you to think that? I challenge you to re-read my posts, on this thread or any other, and tell me. If you still think that after re-reading my posts, you should think about taking some reading comprehension classes.

Support the United States of America....

http://www.stopthenorthamericanunion.com/Subversion.html

daneen@frontiernet.net

Daneen Peterson
Founder and Author
http://www.StopTheNorthAmericanUnion.com
aka http://www.StopTheSPP.com

If you want to do something; get educated and aware.

Cooperate with this lady who is doing much, very much, to discover (unearth) and make public a great reality.

I speak excellent Spanish. I like the people as a general rule and have spent much of my life in many countries of Latin America, but what does it serve to destroy America because a few have no heart and no conscience. We can not continue down this endless road to tyranny. They will bring, in their vast numbers, what they are escaping.

I would never support their countries being destroyed due to our or others appetite for what is not ours, and I will not support they're destroying what we have due to their need and avarice or that of our industrialists.

God save America, our leaders are not. They are only looking out for their immediate rewards.

onceamarine
stand down devil dog. FROG is one of the good ones here at TH. And since you seem to be on a mission today, go check out all the FROG's post, then come and tell me he is a whacko!

SSGT
H&ll, we all make mistakes. I stand corrected.

I flinched when I should have hunkered down. Si 'em boy.

For Independent Thinker
That's because you have unfortunately assumed that there are two entirely separate issues. In reality, the border security and terrorist-sneak-in have a 65% overlap (my guesstimate only).

Frog, my compliments......

I didn't recognize the name and simply followed up on Derek's post. Stupid of me and you have my sincere apologies.

I am a good reader, even between the lines. I think it's called, going off half cocked.

Semper Fi Frog....

Thanks, SSGT,
for having my back. Sometimes I get sidetracked in my posts and I'm not always clear with my point, so I'll have take some of the blame for the misperception. It's just that being called a liberal is the kind of the thing that can cause someone, in the parlance of BillyJack, to go beserk.

Reiterating earlier comment
Any and all citizens caught enabling malfeasant aliens to bypass legal immigration routes to come into their country should be charged with treason--no exceptions should be made for members of national legislatures or top leader of country!

(in the US of course, these are Congress/Senate and President)

Thanks, onceamarine ...
apology accepted. That line about reading comprehension was defensive reaction. Sorry!

Please allow me, never having been a Marine, but always and admirer, to say, "Semper Fi!"

onceamarine
now, devil dog, continue on your current mission in clear concience, as we are enjoying the good read.
Semper Fi

Frog=Jack Kemp
In forums such as these, I despise anyone who goes around wanting to expell people Orwell-style as you did the fellow who posted first.

As for your liberalism, there is a certain Jack Kemp type of conservative who feels holier-than-thou on any racial issue. Many post over at Free Republic. Mention that you are against demographic revolution in America and you are labeled "racist" or "nativist." Of course, George Washington would fit the bill and he was the greatest American of them all.

NOW ITS MY TURN
Shaggy. You keep saying that its the whorepublicans fault! Oh realy? So none of your demwhackedoutscum in congress, senate and white house over that span take none of the blame? Your kidding right? Who is trying to pass all this legislation this past year? You had better come up with a good answer for me, or no more bones for you.

FROG
right on. We have to stick together to win. Thats another marines mantra!

Has the tide turned...
... on the ILLEGAL alien invasion?

Amazingly, the tide has turned in favor of the out-gunned Middle American, grassroots forces recently against the monied special interests of the pro-ILLEGALS controlling both parties with different ulterior agendas. Shrillary twisted her disingenuous self like a pretzel trying not to admit she supports driver's licenses for ILLEGALS. Various states which initially did that (e.g., North Carolina) reversed it because of the pandemic crime, gangs, fraud and blight which ensued.

We just stopped the innocuous sounding "Dream Act" which would have made 1 million of the younger ILLEGALS citizens, whereupon they would have applied for millions more relatives. Socialists Turbin Durbin and Dingy Harry Reid had thought that this artful subterfuge/clandestine scamnesty would be the easiest to cram thru the Senate, BUT THEY FAILED! Even Sen. Lindseed Gramnesty voted against it after righteously indignant citizens in S.C. rightly threatened to lynch him for embracing ILLEGALS against their overwhelming opposition.

I am actually rather encouraged after having feared that America was irretrievably lost to the ILLEGAL invasion. It ain't over-- the leading
candidates love ILLEGALS --> Shrillary and Sanctuary City Rudy, because there are at least 3 million of them in N.Y. state. "Meandering Mitt" Romney and Fred "Wake me up when it's over" Thompson SAY the right things, but I am suspicious of both... they smack of globalists in patriots' clothing.

Rattle those cages in Washington!
Folks, do NOT underestimate how influential your calls and e-mails to Congress can be. While it is true that the monied lobbyists and inside the beltway power brokers wield the most influence, even the pro-ILLEGAL forces admit that it has
been (righteously indignant) Middle America pounding out those calls and e-mails which has derailed Scamnesty thus far despite the immense special interest $ trying to cram it thru. We also just stopped stealth scamnesty-- the "Dream Act" (really a nightmare).

Great American Sen. Sessions and others have noted that the Senators had never seen anything like the wrath this Scamnesty stuff has caused in Middle America. Here is how you can easily contact YOUR Senators and Representatives at their official contact sites. Bookmark it and call/e-mail them often:

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

Or you can send the great topic specific e-mails as prepared by the top anti-ILLEGAL group and stay informed right here:

http://www.numbersusa.com/index
http://www.numbersusa.com/actionbuffet

We CAN and MUST win the fight to save America! The next proactive step will be the SAVE Act, which is summarized at my 6:03 a.m. post. Also, make sure the pols you vote for are clear about their agendas-- just say no to open borders and any form of stealth amnesty like Rudy's "regularization."

Semper Fi Lodestar
You and I and WE are on the right track. We are saying what a lot, not enough, but a lot of Americans are thinking.

i read several years back in the Houston Chronicle something I thought was very pert.

It said with reference to complaints to companies, etc. that according to studies done that about one person with a complaint out of twenty five, 1 in 25, 4% would actually take the time and trouble to voice that complaint. However, that 4% represented to a smart company or politician the reaction of 25 who had the same or similar complaints or opinion.

Derek, you apparently did not read
all of my posts. Read my 10:33am post to SteveL and Sammy. I wrote this: "Sammy, you may be right about NYC. There are probably a lot more of those sheep in wolves clothing (yes, I reversed it on purpose for the particular type of idiot that uses that tactic here on TH). I personally am remiss at flagging posts unless it is WAY over the top. Most of the time it is to the benefit of the conservative movement to have these types reveal themselves."

While I did invite NYC to take a hike, I was not attempting to censure or ban him/her. If you've seen the vitriol posted by NYC7USA1 over the last week involving the immigration issue, I think you'd agree that they have no place here on TH or anywhere for that matter.

Watershed moment?
How can there be a watershed moment on illegal immigration or anything else when the elites in DC and on Wall Street act from an arrogant posture that they are empowered to dictate to We The People what kind of country we will have?

These public servants, especially those who are elected, need to be reminded that it is their job to SERVE We The People, not rule over us.

How arrogant/dense/stubborn do you have to be to look at polling data that shows overwhelmingly (70%+) that We The People want the border enforced and interpret it as 'racism' that must be overcome in order to win a political @ss-kissing contest over the hispanic vote (now that hispanics outnumber blacks as a 'minority')?

The only two Republican Presidential candidates who can be trusted to enforce the border are Duncan Hunter and Tom Tancredo.

Watershed moment? How about a Get-Your-Head-Out-Of-Your-@ss moment?

Vic/Barone
Vic
Michael Barone was a very strong liberal until he began to make a whole lot of money in the 80s and he switched sides. But he still sees things through the prism of a liberal. Think of his past. He worked for the next-to-last white mayor of Detroit, Jerry Cavanagh, in the 60s. His Almanac of American Politics slanted to the left until he sold it. His wife was a left-wing producer of Meet the Press until her sad death.

mld the diaper stain
since you can't post intelligence you again post nonsense. Too bad ambulance chaser daddy never taught you to man up. How about defending yoiur pathetic point of view. Like all libs you continually blame the repubs. How about the libs accepting responsibilty for dumbing down the education system. But you libs in your feeble minds think that with the clinton's you have hit paydirt. But all you have managed to do is to defend bubba's right to use the white house as a pick up bar and the missus clinton, who has no resume of administrative experience, the right to run for president. Being free white and 21 is not an acceptable job resume. But fools like you always act on emotion rather than reason. After the traitor heinz-kerry got his behind handed to him in the last election, the shrinks had to deal with boatloads of libs suffering from drespression. What we conservs look forward to is when the missus clinton doesn't deliver the presidentcy those of you on the wacky left will committ mass suicide. The country will celebrate will as a result be a far better place. In your case however we are hoping you cancell your own ticket today but that would require a measure of courage and we all know you are an abject coward

IMMIGRANTS DID NOT BUILD THIS COUNTRY!
Rich, you are 100% WRONG on that! NONE of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were immigrants! They were ALL native to WELL-ESTABLISHED British colonies, formerly under British rule, men who sacrificed EVERYTHING to pursue their vision of a society free of oppressive tyranny! LEGAL immigrants have contributed to the progress of this nation...yes, I will give you that much but ONLY that much...but ILLEGALS contribute NOTHING BUT MISERY ON OUR NATION!

Frog, I'll accept your clarification-thank you! My apologies if I misunderstood you. And ty for your condolences but I'd prefer to see this problem corrected than to hear of yet another American victimized by illegals.

SteveL, get a clue! You want to be next in line to get screwed by illegals? Guess you don't care if any other American suffers at the hands of illegals. Well, I DO CARE! And I ain't the only one!

Its not enough
to communicate to stop amnesty. The DC purveyors of same must be crushed at the ballot box, preferably in the primaries where concerned and informed voters count for more. If pols of either party who were unresponsive lose primaries, the victors may, just may, figure out where the butter for their bread is coming from. Also, if its important to you to support your party, you can trash the rascal in the primary and still vote your party.

President
As we saw not to long ago Bush and some of his Rino cronies tried to fool us.However we rose up enmasse and defeated them.Our problem is not who ends up as POYUS,its the people that control the house and senate.If you get a Hilary type as POTUS and alot of rino's and liberals in the house and senate your voices will not be heard. GOD BLESS AMERICA

Virginia Patriot
Friend, I like your style and the simple way that you present your points. Your post does you great credit. No shouting with capital letters, no venom, no theatrics or hysterics. Merely the telling of things as you see them. In my opinion, you see them well! Your presentation style should be an example for other posting friends to follow. I am a first generation American! I am now, and always have been proud of being an American. While my mother and father were both from Canada, I do not consider myself a Canadian-American, just an American. I was raised by Americans and totally embrace our way of life here. Yet, I do find some fault with many of our citizens, who are not patriots, yet have benefited highly, in prestige and power, from being an American. God love all our patriots, with the intestinal fortitude to speak out for our nation, our flag, our laws, our religions and our American way of life. Thank all of you for your contributions.

Post 2
Of course the current quotes are way out of whack for the needs of business and the growth of our country. How about opening up a million or two for legal immigration. But they must go back to their country and apply, if we send them back they would be restricted from applying. If the first of the eligible are given green cards, they will rush to get back. Of course the real legal ones that hadn’t come illegally would be the very first. Sponsorship could be tied to employment and the company would be responsible for their transportation back(this one might not fly). All others would be deported with no chance of return, because by then there will be a fence to assure their failure to enter our country illegally again. Then we really would have to think about the numbers and what makes sense to allow legal immigration to work without cheaters. Check out my blog, I have a different idea on why southern politicians specifically from TX , AZ and CA are for amnesty.

Wouldn’t it therefore make sense to stop the flow and then try to deal with the internal problem, as long as the problem increases it will become harder and harder to deal with. Cheap Mexican airlines offer ½ fair for people wanting to get to the border from not only Mexico but other Latin American countries.

All of this is not just a domestic issue it is one of National Security, the days of open borders are gone. Without enforceable borders we will not have a country, needs to be done. I am liking Hunter more and more but he is off the radar in the goofy polls, a pity he would make a good start, getting our country back on track. The rest of them save Tancredo are all cut from the same cloth, flopping around like a fish just caught and wanting to get back into the water.

As usual Barry’s center for dissent barrym@tds.net or visit my pitiful blog.




Migration vs Immigration

Migration is a movement of people from one place to another. Immigration is citizens of one country applying for legal entry to another country with the intent to become a citizen of that country. The debate is not about immigration at all. It's about moving the cheap labor here. Old fashioned notions like citizenship and borders get in the way of that. Bush is telling us illegal aliens do not want to be Americans, they just want to work here. The real answer is for foreigners to clean up their own countries so they do not need to flee them. Citizens of other countries do not have any right to "migrate" into our country without permission. If America announces to the world, "We can't stop you, so come on in", with another amnesty, the deluge will be overwhelming. If 3,000 a day didn't get your attention, then wait until it's 10,000 a day. We cannot sustain this influx and survive as a nation. We must speak up and speak to each other about this and not let false claims of racism or bigotry be used to intimidate us into silent assent. America is not Congress' to give away. America belongs to We The People.

Rule of Law? Or Not

Actively, consistently, continuously enforcing existing laws will send the message that we are serious about our laws. Changing them to accomodate people breaking them sends the opposite message. And not just to those already here. Millions are waiting to see which tack we take. Amnesty will set off a stampede like we have not seen before. Enforcement will start the flow in the other direction as the jobs and benefits dry up. Those pushing for amnesty are for surrendering to the demands of the illegal aliens and their employers, abandoning the rule of law and surrendering our sovereignty. We should not change the laws to suit those breaking them.

Two Canes
Thanks, just trying to do my part. Whether you are a naturalized American, 1st generation or 10th generation, we must all work to save our heritage, it was paid for dearly by those patriots before us.

Sorry post 1
Illegal Aliens come to our country for several reasons. One is very honorable on the surface, that is to find a job so they can support their family. There is the infamous drug trafficking and I assume these cross over, when they can pay one of the people to bring drugs over and pay them when they deliver it or kill them, who would know. The last category is those that just plain see it an easier place for a life of crime and a judicial system that isn't strong enough to keep them from their mission. When I was stationed at Fort Bliss TX in the 60’s we were told if you went to Mexico, which everyone did, keep our nose clean or you could land up in a Mexican prison for many years for a small issue, most of us took the advice.

How do we deal with this, we put things in Spanish so business doesn’t miss the chance to sell them something, I might start boycotting businesses that have Spanish on their label. This isn’t practical at the moment because everyone does it, nobody wants to be left out and no one has the guts to stand up and call it for what it is and say I am proud to present my product in our national language English. If aliens were here to assimilate, they would do what every other legal immigrant has done, learn English. My Grandfather came here from Russia at the turn of the century. He spoke broken English, but would have spit in the eye of some trying to make Russian a second language to make it easier for him, I don’t know if he would have recognized the hypocrisy but would have been offended and tried to the best of his ability to assimilate. He ran a small successful business and raised a family of 9 children. This is a great country and we have plenty of room for legal immigration. Of course companies that have hiring practices that encourage illegal immigration, do it for only one reason, they can take advantage of them.


Punish Employers
The ONLY way to permanently solve our illegal problem is to severely punish ALL employers who hire illegals. Set up a hotlinne and in six months we will know where 95% of the illegals are.

Kick them out of work and stop all benefits and they will go home and stay home. Problem solved!

Virginia Patriot and Two Canes
I second two canes remarks in all senses. Both his posture as an American and his recognition of your writing style. No hyperbole.

I generally do the same, in my style of course. Occasionally some idiot really cranks my nose and I have two choices, personally, change pages or cut loose. With my Alabama mother's hot blood or my dad's cold steel, either I walk or someone gets hurt.

My folks started out in Virginia more than ten generations ago, at least on my dad's side. Mama's picked up a little Indian once upon a time and probably were escapees from Georgia although her mother's parents were Irish immigrants.

Thank you Virginia Patriot.


Brown-skinned person against Illegals
I am an immigrant to this country. My parents moved here from India. They did so LEGALLY. My dad got his Master's degree from MIT, then went through all the official paperwork, including waiting for years, before LEGALLY coming to this country.

I want us to ENFORCE OUR LAWS. If a person does not even respect the laws of this country, they will not respect this country.

Right now, we are in a time of war. We have people who want to kill us. As long as our borders are open (both Mexico AND Canada) they can sneak in. This is dangerous. Plus, we cannot afford to have illegals here who may or may not give a rip about this country.

I am tired of all the stupid racist crap. This is not a racist issue. this is a law and order issue. either you respect the law, or you don't. the color of your skin does not matter. you have to respect the law.

RA

Why do you have to make so much sense. Of course, but don't let the enablers hear you. they'll say your some kind of bad person, yea and heartless too.

onceamarine
My father-in-law was in the 1st Marine Division in Korea. My pastor was a Marine in Desert Storm. I have nothing but admiration for all those who serve, but especially those in the Corps. Keep up the good work, ooh raah.

Really?
Wildwest writes: "It is those who enter the country legally and follow are laws that are welcome."

Really?

Let run a Gedanken experiment. First, by magic, deport every single illegal in the country. Second, replace each and every one by a legal migrant.

Same number of people, all here legally. Are you OK with that?

Shefali
I know many naturalized Americans from all over the world. Thank you for speaking up, good post, we need to hear from more legal immigrants. The ones I know are just as ticked off about illegal aliens as those of us fortunate enough to be born here.

Shefali
Ditto on what VP said! And welcome to you and yours. Don't worry about some dolt calling you names like racist because they don’t know you. Look at me, middle aged white male and I have dated women of the Asian, Mexican and Black persuasion. I learned long ago you do not judge people by their skin. I know white people not worth the powder to blow them to the hot place. I am also married to a red headed Boston liberal right now and if she can put up with me any one should be able too. LoL

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

Good Point About Barone
Derek -

You make a good point about Barone, being a former liberal who still sees things through a liberal prism. The same thing can be said about Giuliani (originally a McGovernite), most of the neocons and even George Bush. While not officially a "recovering liberal," few would deny that Bush is a big government advocate.

mellor
legal immigration is acceptable. Every country has the right to investigate it's legal immigrants. Turning away those with criminal records and severe health problems are routinely turned away by law. If those here illegally, leave and go through a venting process, enter legally and get in line to become citizens that is the way the process is meant to work. America has the right and the obligation to know who has entered this country. Earning the right to citizenship is the path millions have taken in the past.

Agreed, but
you didn't answer the question.

Which was: If each and every illegal was replaced by a properly vetted legal migrant, would that be OK?

they were almost all from Mexico
Loribme
THIS IS NOT ABOUT RACE! It is about ATTITUDE and ACTIONS taken by illegals
-------------

I say that a country consists of a Border and a Culture. I think the word Multiculturalism is a misspelling. I think it should be Murderculturalism, as it destroys culture, it does not develop a culture.

Fights between immigrants is not a new problem. In 1946 I was in the Army, and we received a couple busloads of new trainees from somewhere in South Texas. It turns out they were mostly Mexican, but we didn’t know that, or pay any attention to their race.

After a couple of fights ended with knives drawn, at midnight a bunch of offices, and well armed MPs arrived, and ordered everyone outside, right out of bed. Some in Skivvies, some naked.

They searched the beds and lockers of everyone, and found several knives. The soldiers were told that no one would be punished this time, but any more knives, and you would be in the jail house.

A couple of the men (well young men at least) actually cried real tears because they had never before been without their weapon, and knew they were in danger, even though they were almost all from Mexico.

NYC7USA1
I think I can speak for all of us here, be it liberal, conservative, libertarian, Caucasian, Hispanic, Black, and everything in between when I say:

STFU

Thank you, and have a nice evening.

mellor
first and foremost not all of the illegals here could pass the vetting process. But all immigrants who pass the vetting process are by our laws welcome to enter. My position is only against those here who have broken our laws and entered illegally

Thank you Shefali..

.........glad to have you join us.

Your comments are seconded and passed.

Very few of us give a mouses rear end what your or anyone's color is. Any color. We do care about the attitude attached to the color.


YLG writes:
STFU

Ditto!!!

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

wildwest
Spot on and I would only add that ANY Terrorist sneaking across with them is not welcome in either situation!

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

Jose Can You See?
Years ago, during the early 1960s, my grandpa confronted a group of louts on the street speaking Spanish. "You're in America now, you should be speaking English," he told them. They laughed and told him: "In a few years pop, you're gonna be speaking Spanish." I thought this story was funny then, I don't now.
They sneak into our country and tell us we must speak their language, not them ours. They sneak in and we have the honor of paying for the social programs for their anchor babies. They sneak in and commit horrendous crimes against American citizens. Hillary and Spitzer in N.Y. want them to vote (Democratic) Thats what the drivers license scam is all about.
Any Republican who wants my vote better be damn clear on this issue: no amnesty, deport them now!

Sam writes:
Americans have spoken LOUD AND CLEAR on illegal immigration


You got that right, and that’s why we will elect Hunter!

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

Pushing Multiculturalism
We are in effect being told that American culture (yes there is one) is no better than, if not worse, than other cultures. Multiculturalism is presented as a way to make America better. The truth is that people come here to take advantage of opportunities that their own culture does not afford them. If what they have is better why are they leaving it?

This is certainly not to say that other cultures have nothing to offer. It is obvious that America is an amalgam of many cultures. What we have done is demand that people make a commitment to be Americans first and then offer to America those aspects of their culture that are mutually agreed upon as being beneficial.

To be told that we have to accept other cultures because muticulturalism is good is to deny Americans the right to decide for themselves what is good. Inherent in this line of reasoning is the concept that we do not know what is good for us.

Oncemarine
Needless to say, criminal immigrants wouldn't have a pot to %%%% in if we didn't have congressmen ready to sell their vote at any cost to the country.

ONe danger you guys keep ignoring, though, is the increased demand they will create for energy and food resources, not to mention the increased pollution. If this country ever has a major drought or major fuel embargo, it will be every man for himself.

Finally, it isn't just Republican businesses taking advantage of cheap labor, it is many major campaign contributors on both sides of the isle, counting on an extra 100 million consumers to buy their DVD players, insurance, autos, gas, etc. to keep their sales revenues rising while the baby boomers retire and chill. This is why we see more contributors moving to the Dems. Some are desperate.

CFR Candidates
All of these candidates are members of Rockefeller's Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), which advocates One World Government --

Fred Thompson
Rudy Giuliani
John McCain
Mitt Romney
Jim Gilmore
Newt Gingrich
Hillary Clinton
Barack Obama
John Edwards
Joe Biden
Chris Dodd
Bill Richardson

There are three running for the Republican nomination that are not CFR sympathizers;
Tom Tancredo
Duncan Hunter
Ron Paul

If you want the invasion from Mexico to continue, vote for a CFR candidate.

I am voting for either Duncan Hunter or Tom Tancredo.

Do not believe the MSM polls or media coverage. They are pulling out the stops to keep these two Patriots from getting elected.

from media accounts... as info
The Dem's Big Mystery:
It seems like only months ago we were told the immigration issue was splitting Republicans. Now it's E.J. Dionne wringing his hands about the worry among Democrats that Republicans are ready to use impatience with illegal immigration to win back voters dissatisfied with the status quo.

What's changed? Well, President Bush--the main politician doing the GOP-splitting--is leaving the scene. The Republican electorate seems to have DECISIVELY TURNED AGAINST his illegal-immigrant semi-amnesty. Result: No more split! But the powerful GOP anti-legalization sentiment was obviously latent even in 2006. The MSM just chose not to notice.

Anti-legalization sentiment has also been manifestly latent among Democratic voters --including, but not limited to, unskilled workers whose wages have been suppressed by immigrant competition. What's odd, then, is that the Dems now aren't split. They're only terrified! The Dem presidential candidates who might appeal to anti-legalization opinion--and thereby split the party--all seem paralyzed by their desire not to offend Latinos.

Hmmm. The last successful Democratic presidential candidate defied his party's dogma on a central issue (welfare) at the risk, it was thought, of offending key interest groups (blacks, liberals). Is there no current candidate willing to do the same on immigration? You'd think someone in the 2008 field would make the move, just for strategic reasons. ... John Edwards may be edging there: On ABC's This Week he came out against N.Y. Gov. Spitzer's illegal-immigrant driver's-license plan. But he only did it sotto voce, after prompting, and after emphasizing his support for "comprehensive" reform (i.e. legalization). ...

Here's a mind blowing video
to give everyone pause and another "oh sh**" moment to wake up to the urgency of this situation, watch this video:

http://www.numbersusa.com/video/

Nick in Austin
Totally agree. Good points about the sales, etc., and the cost to all of us.

Please don't lump me with the dummies. I ain't.

Ever heard of Georgetown. Sic 'em boy........

Say it again ScottyDog!!
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

No leadership on immigration issue
No leadership seen on immigration issue
The debate over every single provision of the recently failed immigration bill could be compared to a bus full of people arguing at every intersection whether to turn left, right, or go straight – there is no consensus about where the bus is heading to begin with.

There is no consensus as to what caused this immigration havoc. There is no agreement as to what a working immigration system should look like. Politicians look to opinion polls to find out what Americans think.

The public, however, is misinformed and disoriented. Instead of asking what Americans think, it would be more appropriate to ask Americans to rethink their position on immigration. Many politicians are spinning their wheels trying to follow what the public wants. Leaders with the wisdom to find the underlying cause of the problem and the courage to tell fellow Americans the unpleasant truth were nowhere to be seen.

Read more at:
http://www.henrykkowalczyk.com/benefits_of.htm

Our current immigration laws can be effectively enforced only in the Soviet style political system, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2wE0IBmh_Q . The laws are bad, not our ability to enforce them.

The Freedom of Migration Act is the only reasonable solution,
http://www.henrykkowalczyk.com/immigration.htm

Henryk A. Kowalczyk
http://www.henrykkowalczyk.com


This is the Unifying Issue
This is the ONLY issue that crosses the political aisle.

Only the candidate that can CREDIBLY state they will secure our borders and enforce our immigration laws will find bi-partisan support.

The polititians and leaders of the parties need to get a clue.

GOP are you listening????

HUNTER 2008

If by vetted you mean...
MellorSJ2 writes: Monday, November, 05, 2007 6:17 PM
Agreed, but
you didn't answer the question.

Which was: If each and every illegal was replaced by a properly vetted legal migrant, would that be OK?
-----
If by vetted you mean properly evaluated then your argument has no merit. There is already a process in place for that which illegal immigration has subverted. Essentially, legal immigration continues to be subverted, as does the American wage base, by the open criminal conduct of American businesses. But, Tyson's BoD will never go to jail because they gave money to both Bushes and both Clintons.

Argument?
Fivo writes: "If by vetted you mean properly evaluated then your argument has no merit."

I'm not making an argument, I'm asking a question.

If 20m (say) illegals were deported tomorrow, and replaced by 20m legal migrants, would that be OK?

Mellor et all
If you want 20M to leave you take away there work. That starts at the work place. Their is no leadership in the three branches of government today willing to do that.

20 million legal would be ok, but we would have to totally change present procedures to do so. That number exceeds, first of all, anything authorized, as well as would be physically very difficult to do with the personnel at present.

We need new leadership in the house, senate and potus. Then anything and everything is/would be possible.

Hell No
MellorSJ2, I'll answer the question -- absolutely NO! Mass immigration whether legal or illegal is no longer in the best interests of our country. We have well over 300 million people already in our country -- why do we NEED more? A very limited level of legal immigration that would ensure a replacement level population for this country and that would be comprised of educated English speaking people with skills would comprise my plan.

The fact that Juan who used to be illegal is now legal doesn't change the fact that he isn't a net contributor to our country. Our current legal immigration system is nothing but a welfare lottery plan for the world's poor and a taxpayer funded subsidy for the employers' of cheap labor. It's like an earmark in that the benefits accrue to a very small, well organized, well-funded, and politically connected few while the costs are bourne by a much larger, uninformed, and uninterested (at least it has been that way in the past) general citizenry. That's how pork that doesn't serve the overall interests of our society is passed and how mass immigration (legal and illegal) continues to flow uncontrolled.

Mellor
The man, Sammy, gave you the answer I should have directly given you instead of pussi-footing around about rules and regs. I am ashamed that I did not.

We don't need twenty million although we have at least that many now. We only need to have million plus to do agriculture hand work until our machinery catches up. New machinery on the drawing boards could do most of the rest. We already have tomato picker machines and orange pickers. Almost all the rest can be done also.

I played your what if game. Your twenty million illegals for my 20 million legals. We don't need twenty million. We need jobs for the unemployed we have. Period.

We have that many black Americans who need a job or a better job. We have native Americans on the reservation eating twinkies and drinking booze, ruining there health and loosing their culture.

We have new good immigrants who need good jobs.
We have retired people who need more income. We have or can make do with every job out there.

We don't need or want slaves who sooner or later will be useless after they would get "rights".



Onceamarine and Sammy
Thanks for your direct answers.

Now that we have dispatched the red herring of illegality, we can now get down to the business of determining an appropriate level of migration. Here, I think, you two disagree. Sammy seems to want a limited number of well-educated immigrants, while onceamarine wants to put the un(der)employed to work.

At the same time, Sammy writes: "The fact that Juan who used to be illegal is now legal doesn't change the fact that he isn't a net contributor to our country." On what basis? Because he's not educated? Not English speaking?


Va Patriot
Can I join the others regarding your posts. You
make a lot of sense, thank you.
I'm a first generation American on my mothers side. She came over from Britan as a child with my grandparents and four of her six surviving siblings. My Aunt, the eldest was sent over prior to WW 1 and Grampa was called up to the British Army shortly afterwards so it was another 10 years being raised by my Grampa's cousing before they were all reunited. I was raised to be proud of my British heritage but
prouder of being an American. It took 8 years before the family was naturalized, and later two of his sons fought as Americans in W.W. 2. I'm second generation on my Dad's side, his parents came from Britain separately as children in the 1880'/90's. My grampa couldn't leave Britain til he had a letter from the mill that he had
a job here and a place to live.
We must vote our candidate (I like Hunter/Tancredo too) but we must also PRAY that
God will heal our sad, sick land and give us the
man who will live up to his sacred oath to defend and protect America and her people.

MellorSJ2
"The fact that Juan who used to be illegal is now legal doesn't change the fact that he isn't a net contributor to our country." On what basis? Because he's not educated? Not English speaking?

Juan can be the hardest working most honest human being walking the planet, but the fact still remains that he uses more in benefits than he contributes in taxes -- check out Robert Rector's studies from the Heritage Foundation. Poor uneducated people whether native born, legal immigrant, or illegal "immigrant" just don't pay the bills in an advanced information age economy with a modern day welfare state. That doesn't make them bad people but why would we purposefully import more net users. Why not allow our native born manual laborers/low skilled to enjoy the fruits of their labor by being able to earn a decent wage that fully reflects the cost to society of the work that they so laboriously perform?

That's just the finanicial implications but there are certainly cultural considersations as well. I just don't think it is a good idea to allow our country to become Mexico or some other 3rd World country -- in whole or in large unassimilated parts.


agree-- it is low-hangin' fruit
re:
****************************************************
Mrs. Paddy writes: Monday, November, 05, 2007 9:35 PM
This is the Unifying Issue
This is the ONLY issue that crosses the political aisle.
**************************************************

Many missed this (and the MM willfully ignored it) about the '06 election-- it was NOT a repudiation of pro-enforcement forces. While a few one-issue candidates lost, MOST who took a stand against ILLEGALS won, including many new 'Crats like Webb, McCaslin and Heath Shuler, who is sponsoring the worthy SAVE Act (Secure America with Verification and Enforcement). I believe that stopping ILLEGALS will be the seminal issue in '08... as some have noted, prevailing over militant Islam and reigning in profligate spending will be POINTLESS if we lose American to the ILLEGAL invasion.

We have defeated scamnesty several times in a row because the Senators had never seen anything like the wrath this tripe has caused in Middle America. Here is how you can easily contact YOUR Senators and Representatives at their official contact sites. Bookmark it and call/e-mail them often:

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

Or you can send the great topic specific e-mails as prepared by the top anti-ILLEGAL group and stay informed right here:

http://www.numbersusa.com/index
http://www.numbersusa.com/actionbuffet

For Shefali
I'm glad to see another Indian on here with sense.

very well said-- worth a reprise
reprinted (slight edit) for emphasis:

*************************************************
Shefali writes: Monday, November, 05, 2007 5:12 PM

Brown-skinned person against ILLEGALS

I am an immigrant to this country. My parents moved here from India. They did so LEGALLY. My dad got his Master's degree from MIT, then went through all the official paperwork, including waiting for years, before LEGALLY coming to this country.

I want us to ENFORCE OUR LAWS. If a person does not even respect the laws of this country, they will not respect this country.

Right now, we are in a time of war. We have people who want to kill us. As long as our borders are open (both Mexico AND Canada) they can sneak in. This is dangerous. Plus, we cannot afford to have ILLEGALS here who may or may not give a rip about this country.

I am tired of all the stupid racist crap. This is NOT a racist issue. This is a law and order issue. Either you respect the law, or you don't. The color of your skin does not matter. You have to respect the law.

************************************************
WELL SAID! ILLEGALS are NOT cheap labor! Their TRUE all-in costs will be crippling socio-economically! They DO NOT want to assimilate. They permeate pandemic social pathologies like a cancer. NO uneducated, indigent alien can benefit today's America. We need to ENFORCE EXISTING LAWS and make them return attritively.

VICTORY: AgJOBS Amnesty Threat Thwarted
http://www.numbersusa.com/index

(November 6) Sensing defeat was imminent, Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) said yesterday she will not try to attach her revised Agricultural Job Opportunities, Benefits, and Security Act of 2007 (AgJOBS) to the Farm Bill Extension Act of 2007. "When we took a clear-eyed assessment of the politics of the farm bill and the defeat of the DREAM Act and comprehensive immigration reform," Feinstein said in a statement, "it became clear that our support could not sustain these competing forces." Indicating that she is not giving up on her massive amnesty for illegal aliens, Feinstein said yesterday she will ask Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) to bring AgJOBS back to the Senate floor either later this year or early in 2008 ...

************************************************

It is clear that our grassroots opposition to scamnesty subterfuge efforts has been working, but the left and the "cheap" labor lobbies will persist. Keep pounding out the save America from the ILLEGAL invasion message to Congress at their official contact sites here:
(bookmark it and contact them regularly)

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

Hak
>hak writes: Monday, November, >05, 2007 9:31 PM
>No leadership on immigration issue

Your plan for immigration is no different than what the CFR or the Tri Lateral Commission is proposing with the SPP or NAU. In fact, George W Bush would love your plan.

I went to your website and read this little gem:

"It is hard to untangle to what extent the aggressiveness of anti-immigration advocates is incited by the xenophobia that is already here. It could be that the real economical threat from the foreign workers unravels an avalanche of hatred against immigrants, Mexicans in particular. Mainstream media are very careful in preserving illusions of objective reporting. Therefore, in their anti-immigration propaganda they confine themselves to diligently reporting news that fits their agenda; such as crimes committed by illegal aliens. There are plenty of websites and blogs where immigrants are portrayed as criminals and barbarians. Defamatory language is a standard there. They talk about a Mexican invasion. Even children of illegal immigrants born in the U.S. that legally are U.S. citizens are just “anchor babies”, In private e-mail exchanges, endangerment of the Caucasian race shows up as one of the key anti-immigration motives. For someone brought up in Europe, the analogy to anti-Semitism of Nazism is unavoidable."

Unbelievable.

BTW Shefali
My path is somewhat different from yours, as I came through Canada (immigrated there at age 8, naturalised there @ 18/19, then came to US on TN-1 @ 30, GC'ed and naturalised in US).

Due to the many migraines I suffered with US immigration, I do believe the system needs overhaul (which shamnesty is not; Reagan's 1986 shamnesty made the flaws of the system more apparent, and exacerbated them). Perhaps a copying from Canada's "points" system, with the modification that ONLY English should be considered as official language?

Interesting
I work in medical billing. While on hold with a local Medicaid provider, I was surprised to hear, among the many PSA-type announcements during the on-hold recording, a notice that proof of citizenship would be required--if one is a citizen--in order to renew Medicaid coverage. The announcement was in English, although others were in Spanish, and I'm fluent enough in Spanish that I did not notice a translation of this same announcement. No mention made of what to do if one is NOT a citizen.

NYC7USA1
In case you missed it, I will repeat it:

I think I speak for all of us here, be it Hispanic, Caucasian, Black, liberal, conservative, or libertarian when I say:

STFU

Have a good day.

ScottyDog
What is “unbelievable”? The facts I write about, or the fact that I write about it?

77% Oppose Driver's Licenses
Remember that number 77%.

What that translates to is 77% oppose amnesty.

That is a huge number.

Democrats be afraid, be very afraid.

(You too, you open border, amnesty Republicans)

77% is a sea change, political realignment number.

As for Barone, like Goldfinger caught cheating at cards, his credibility was on the line.

You can't ignore 77% as a trend spotter and have a shred of credibility.


Cynical Liberal Desperation
The comment above by NYC7USA1 is a measure of the cynical "the ends justify the means" desperation of liberals on the illegal alien issue.

The name calling "you are a bunch of racists" comment has run out of gas...time to employ a new tactic.

Act out the "racist" you think anybody, who supports controlling America's border is.

The problem is with 77% that represents many minority Americans.

Minorities know two things:

One, driver's licenses for illegal aliens is a way-station for amnesty. It's not intellectually honest.

Two, minorities are the Americans most hurt by cheap illegal labor.

Their jobs are given to illegal aliens that will work for lower wages and for minorities that keep or get jobs, the wages will be cut substantially.

Example: Dry-wall hangers in Los Angeles were mostly African-American until about ten years ago, when they were replaced by illegal aliens and the wages were reduced about five Dollars an hour.

This has happened around the country, time after time.

Hispanic-Americans, African-Americans, and many others have seen this in their daily lives.

So go back under your rock, NYC7USA1, where you belong, we, Americans are buying your schtick.


Ceasar Chavez and Illegal Labor
Pardon me, it should read "we, Americans are not buying your schtick."

I see NYC7USA1 has been "scrubbed."

While I'm here, I wanted to remind folks about Ceasar Chavez, the famed farm worker union leader. He was adamantly against illegal alien cheap labor.

For Chavez knew the importation of cheap illegal labor was done for one reason:

Break up union formation, lower wages, and prevent any attempt to improve working conditions.

Ceasar Chavez was about Americans first, second, and last.

All Americans, of all backgrounds should be against illegal immigration.

And apparently, at least 77% are against illegal immigration.

Now if only the politicians will act on the determined political will of the American People.



Immigration Facts
Here's the truth about Gov Mike Huckabee and Immigration - it's not what his opponents would like you to think:

http://www.mikehuckabee.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Newsroom.A rticle&ID=82
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