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Monday, June 11, 2007
Michael Barone :: Townhall.com Columnist
Red Nation, Blue Nation
by Michael Barone
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Listening to the recent debates among the candidates, monitoring their Websites and reading the poll numbers, one gets the impression that the Republican and Democratic primary electorates are living in two different nations -- or the same nation that faces two very different threats.

The Republicans want to protect us against Islamist terrorists. The Democrats want to protect us against climate change. Each side believes the other's fears are largely imaginary. Rush Limbaugh regularly treats global warming theories as a "hoax." A prominent political scientist dismisses Republican candidates' appeals as sounding "like the day after Sept. 11." When asked about possible new attacks, Democratic candidates -- with the exception of Hillary Clinton -- talk about seeking international support and understanding. Asked about climate change, Republican candidates -- with the exception of John McCain -- talk about getting more information.

Both threats are, in different ways, known unknowns. We don't know where the next Islamist attack will come -- Fort Dix? JFK Airport? -- or when. We don't know the effects of warming temperatures, or at what rate they might become apparent. And we can't be sure whether our efforts to parry either of these threats will be availing. We can try to track down loose nukes, shadow suspected terrorists, protect the very many vulnerable potential targets in our open society. But the terrorists only have to succeed once, and we must succeed every time.

Similarly, we don't know to what extent a reduction in carbon emissions will reduce global warming. Some scientists tell us that there has been greater climate change in past history due to factors over which we have no control -- such as solar cycles and shifting ocean currents. In the 1930s, British Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin predicted that "the bomber will always get through." We fear the terrorist will always get through, and we know the sun will.

The difference between the two parties' constituencies reflects two different views of America and the world. Those who see Islamist terrorists as the proximate threat see a world in which Americans are largely blameless. Rep. John Murtha may think that the recently foiled plot against JFK Airport was a response to American intervention in Iraq, but September 2001 came before March 2003.

What we are guilty of, in Republican voters' view, is at worst a botched attempt to spread freedom and democracy in the world. And the people who would attack us are, in this view, truly evil. Negotiation, propitiation, appeasement, confessions of guilt -- none of these will reduce the threat. Vigilance and going on offense will.

Those who see climate change as the proximate threat take another view, one that has evolved into a kind of secular religion. Debate on the science of climate change must be shut down -- you must have faith.

We Americans have sinned, and we will be punished unless we repent and change our ways. We have been selfish, and we have failed to heed the advice of the more enlightened and sophisticated nations of the world. We must do penance by sacrificing some of our comforts (though not the gigantic houses and private jet travel of Al Gore or John Edwards). We must reduce carbon emissions by some tremendous percentage.

Left mostly unspoken is which of the two mechanisms to reduce emissions will be used: a carbon tax, which will impose significant costs on everyone and big costs on some (coal miners, steel manufacturers), or a cap-and-trade system, which can be gamed by sharp operators (it was central to the business model of Enron).

He who defines the issues tends to determine the outcome of the election. When pollster Peter Hart asked a bipartisan focus group which candidate could best protect the nation, several people mentioned Rudy Giuliani and John McCain, one mentioned Barack Obama, and no one mentioned Hillary Clinton. Evidently these people, unlike international elites, see the threat as Islamist terrorism and not climate change.

We know which seems more threatening to Republican and Democratic primary voters. But what about independents, who favored Republicans in 2002 and 2004 and Democrats in 2006? The answer may tell you which side wins in 2008.

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About The Author
Michael Barone is a Fox News Channel contributor and co-author of The Almanac of American Politics. He is Senior Political Analyst for the Washington Examiner and a Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a Fox News Channel contributor and co-author of The Almanac of American Politics.
 
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More importantly
All of this hysteria is a threat to our essential liberty. Click my name to read my blog essay "The Nature of Freedom", which is very on-topic.

Both parties use panic tactics to induce people to act and vote without engaging their minds; pure elicited emotional response.

THAT is the true danger to our country and our liberty.

tanabera not get it
I have no love for Beltway flacks, but Michael Barone is a good political analyst generally, and as to this article, Michael Barone makes an observation worth making.

No, tanabear does not get it. While global warming is a fraudulent issue, denying that we have a war with the radical jihadists to fight is a denial of reality. Al Qaeda and the radical Shiites in Iran are real.

To nillson
The subject matter of Michael Barone's article was not one that would lead to the endorsement of a particular candidate, so your criticism of his article on that ground is not valid. Also, you yourself don't name the one candidate you say should be mentioned. Is it because if you had, we would then dismiss wat you have to say as someone shilling for Ron Paul?

Conservative?
Spreading democracy by the use of force and coercion; bombing the rest of the world till they agree. It sounds like the old Soviet Union. This is not conservative. It is Jacobin! The neocons are not conservative. They're just a different flavor of the idealist liberal. The sooner we realize this the sooner we can get them out of politics entirely!

Globull Warming is NOT a
HOAX! A hoax is an innnocent trick played on one or more people for the purposes of humour. GloBULL Warming is a SCAM which is being foisted off on the people by crooks like Albore and the corrupt UN. The intent is to transfer money out of the pockets of the average American and into the pockets of foreign rulers, US rulers, and an ever-increasing government pig.

To prove this just ask the next politician who is advocating carbon taxes which taxes that the "average" American pays are going to be rduced in order to make their bill revenue neutral. If they give any answer at all it will probably be a csae of a "transfer to poor people". In other words, yet more socialism.

Global Warming
is indeed a scam as Vic said. Radical Islam and their wanting to kill us is not. However, we need to keep a close watch on all of our pols.

I have a new article on our pols. America Kills Bill, just click on my name to get there.

The Hoax?
Nice comments Vic. They should be carved into stone so that our grandchildren can read them in disbelief as they sweat through yet another muggy, 120-degree New England spring, coughing from the aggaravated asthma brought on by breathing mouldy air in rotting houses that never really dry out because it just won't stop raining!

Denying the threat to humanity from global warming is as naive as denying terrrorists will continue to threaten our well-being. The difference is of magnitude. Terrorism will most certainly, but only periodically, claim a handful of innocent lives in an aweful inferno of instananeous death. Global warming, on the other hand, will with fairly high confidence reduce hundreds of millions globally to a miserable, heat-choked existence and slow death by starvation, malaria, flooding, respiratory problems...

It is, as Barone wisely points out, uncertain whether we can do anything effective to avert either threat. I would elevate that in the case of terrorism to: we cannot do anything about it. Every generation in every society on the planet has its crop of crazies, and their rage will always be directed at the successful. Global warming, on the other hand, we MAY still have a chance to do something about.

To g_gaisford
If you have been following this topic on TH you would know that it has been shown by a preponderance of the evidence that AGW is a scam.

I will tell you just like I tell all of the people who advocate action for this scam. I will vote for any action whcih you personnally are willing to pay for.

Charity rankings
Lol nolongersilent - of course the red states are most charitable. When you're dirt poor, you only have to donate a penny to make the rank! Meanwhile, New York and Califronia top the list in terms of amounts given. So while we blue-staters thank the red-staters for their charming little contributions (seriously, guys, good effort!), when you really wanna make a difference in charity, better hit up the blue-state liberals.

Check out the charity rankings:

http://www.catalogueforphilanthropy.org/cfp/db/generosity.php?year=2004

As for the idea the blue-staters are more likely to be welfare recipients, that kinda depends on your definition of welfare. Blue states transfer 7 percent of their state taxes to red states in block grants. And let's not forget about farm subsidies!

tanabear, the professed cultural divide is merely that - professed. Red staters are more likely to have children out of wedlock AND get divorced AND murder eachother. You can read more de-bunking of the cultural divide myth here:

http://www.pkarchive.org/column/050702.html

Evidence
Vic, I really doubt the objective 'evidence' proferred here at TH, or any other blog, can stack up to the overwhelming opinion of scientists globally that global warming is under way.

Of course, if you're not into the whole science thing, then it's hard to argue with you.

Since I'm not a climatologist and would need about ten years of training to form my own opinion, I choose to rely on the conclusions of those around me. This includes the Int'l Panel on Climate Change, for instance, but not Paul Krugman, Michelle Malkin or any other pundit.

Thanks for the offer to let me pay my own way, but in a social contract we normally decide to fund these things as a group.

Hillary and Bush wrong on Iraq!

Hillary Clinton and President Bush both want our military to stay in Iraq long term. Yet experts tell us our long term military presence drives the recruitment of terrorism . Professor Pape has run the longest study on terrorism and has testified before Congress about this issue.

Why not recognize the separate areas of Iraq and pull back U.S. troops? We could keep the troops in an off-shore position to help or use strategic air strikes if needed. We could then bring in an international Muslim force to work in Iraq instead of non-Muslims.

America could then focus on eliminating Middle East oil dependency and lower the tension of terrorism against America. I do not see how our military presence in the area helps us long term.

Wikipedia-Professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago.Robert Pape’s (an expert on terrorism) wrote in Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism (2005) controverts many widely held beliefs about suicide terrorism. Based on an analysis of every known case of suicide terrorism from 1980 to 2005 (315 attacks as part of 18 campaigns), he concludes that there is “little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world’s religions… . Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland” (p. 4). “The taproot of suicide terrorism is nationalism,” he argues; it is “an extreme strategy for national liberation” (pp. 79-80).

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/hillary-and-bush-wrong-on-iraq

Let's Stay on Subject
A number of the comments here simply do not relate to Michael Barone's article. Instead, they involve attacks on Rudi Guiliani, noeconservatives and Iraq War policy that bear no stated and no seeming connection to the Barone article. I don't agree with any of those comments, but I am not going to get into here.

GOP Losing Key Rural Voters


How can the GOP win in 08 with the support for President Bush’s strategy for Iraq falling apart? Do you think more Republican candidates will move toward Ron Paul’s position?

NPR-A new national poll indicates rural Americans are no longer reliably Republican, and the Bush administration’s conduct of the war in Iraq seems mainly to blame.

The poll was commissioned by the non-partisan Center for Rural Strategies, a Whitesburg, Ky., group trying to attract candidate attention to rural issues. Republican political consultant Bill Greener of Greener and Hook also participated in the design and analysis of the survey.

“Republicans are vastly underperforming among rural Americans,” Greener said in response to the survey results. “And if we’re going to succeed in 2008, we’re going to have to do better.”

Concern about the war in Iraq seems to be the reason for the decline in Republican support, according to respondents in the new poll. Three-fourths of those surveyed know someone who is serving or has served in the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan.

“I don’t like the way the war in Iraq is going as well as everybody else,” says Judy VanAhlsen, a realtor in rural Jefferson, Iowa, who describes herself as a lifelong conservative Republican. “I think people are so disenchanted with the war, with Bush in general. I think people think anything is better — even Republicans [think that].”

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/gop-losing-key-rural-voters


To g_gaisford
If you had followed along as I described you would have seen that the arguments presented here on TH were linked to reputable scientists. Also, the UN panel that you referenced were causght redhanded doctoring the evidence and that was also shown on the posts here. And of course you want the "group" to pay for it. So does that crook Albore. IF the people advocating this cr*p had to pay for it, it would never happen.

Two last points; this is not a blog and you might say I am a "scientist" as I worked in Nuclear Power for 36 years.

The real divide
With all the comments above I see a pattern which may have been missed. Isn't the real issue which divides America Internationalism vs. Americanism. In every issue, Global Warming, Islamofascism, Immigration and even how we view charity and such the divide seems to come down to who will control the issue in America, Individuals or the collective. Most of the rest of the world still believes in the "social contract" as government control...there are a few of us here who still believe that the social contract is freely entered into by individuals...Charity does not occur when government, any government, takes your money to give it to someone else...for whatever purpose.

Michael
"What we are guilty of, in Republican voters' view, is at worst a botched attempt to spread freedom and democracy in the world. And the people who would attack us are, in this view, truly evil. Negotiation, propitiation, appeasement, confessions of guilt -- none of these will reduce the threat. Vigilance and going on offense will."

What red states say amounts to saying we must fear everything and everyone. We much change our lives we must hide. What the Blue States are saying is yes the terrorists are back again and we must take action and eliminate them but they are not going to make us live in fear and hide. Let's be vigiliant but let's get on with life. I might point out also that the blue states appear to those at greatest risk....

aside to Vic
You do realize you're criticizing GG's religion, right? Although he has taken a step towards realization with his "if you're not a scientist..." comment. Now we just have to get him to realize that the IPCC are political appointees rather than scientists and that scientists are asking to be removed from the "credits" when their evidence doesn't match the words the IPCC puts into the preamble.

I'm an engineer. It is possible to extrapolate wildly in the wrong direction from a given set of data. When you don't have enough information on whether something is safer or more dangerous, DON'T MAKE THE CHANGES UNTIL YOU ARE SURE!

No doubt someone will try to conflate this with Bush and "weapons of mass destruction", to which I only need answer that Saddam had proven his willingness to flout international law, invade his neighbours, kill his own citizens, and had sent a trade delegation to a nation that gets over 60% of their total trade dollars from uranium exports. Few of us wanted to give him another chance in the post 9-11 world.

Interesting points SCampbell
The push for an effort against global warming is certainly a response to pressure from the international community. I don't exactly see how internationalism applies to the immigration debate though...

I would argue the social contract is not entered into freely. We are born into an existing order - our parents made agreements with their parents to pay for their old age using money that we will earn. Breaking the contract is very costly and so most of us agree to honor its terms in return for some benefits ourselves - which our children usually pay for. Under the terms of this contract, which Vic the nucelar scientist doesn't seem to want to grasp, we pay for our efforts collectively.

I disagree that charity cannot be enshrined in fiscal policies and the tax code. President Bush's efforts to fight AIDS in Africa can most certainly be characterized as a charitable contribution from the U.S. to that continent. Individual giving is important, but I think the sign of a truly Christian society is that it chooses some collective charitable giving through taxes. And this practice has not undermined individual giving, as America is still the most generous nation on earth in terms of private giving.

Internationalism and Immigration
This comes from the notion that we owe homage to the poor, the underclass and those who have not, a socialist notion of altruism as natural law.

The notion of charity or obligation to help one's fellow man is inherent in socialism, not the constitution. Charity or the Good Samaritan syndrome is for the individual person to follow, not a government.

Christianity is about the individual, not the collective, not in the true sense...we are still in love with the idea of "can't we just get the world to sing" philosophy that came from the failed attempts at world government and world collectivism of the last century.

Taking can be enshrined, charity cannot. We are the most charitable nation on earth because Americans individually choose to be, not because it is mandated by government. We see the perfect example in Katrina, where thousands of Americans rallied to give aid and the government money wound up in the rat hole of bureaucracy.

THE BIG HOAX
is perpetuated by the spammers trying to drive traffic to their blog, and linkers thinking that adding links to their evey post is a good substitue for thinking and persuading.

its simple to skip the spammers and the link posters, however in the interest of meaningful debate both should be banned by townhall. it simply enables the most feeble among us.

that the usa is politicaly divided is not even close to news. it is, always has been, and likely always will be. bueno, keeps the wack jobs in the extreme of each party in check. no machine guns, walls along with mass deportations on one side and no installation of franco socialism on the other. que bueno.

To g_gaisford
No, you advocate that we do everything "collectively". That is the norm for a socialist, collectivism. We pay taxes to finance the Govenment which is ony supposed to do what has been authorized by the Constitution. The Constitution does not authorize socialism at all.

gc
Yep, you got it. The thing that everyone is trying to figure out is what is the division about....what divides us and makes us polarized and are we getting closer to being so divided that one or the other fear could be realized. I think that we are a long way from that but the "hate" level has certainly ramped up recently.

Way to go GC
We should ban people who try to document their claims. This forum is only for those with an axe to grind and a lot of fightin' words. It takes a real thinker to extrapolate from the mud-flinging in here to meta-physical mud-flinging.

Priorities and Bush
I wonder if the issue is really about red and blue, or about priorities and Bush? As Barone knows, it's the center that has shifted on the war, which is why the number that believe we should get out of Iraq in 08 has increased to over 60%. Even some conservatives have shifted. The underlying issue, further, is that people have lost confidence in Bush, which is why those that think he's doing a good job is mired in the low 30%. And to get those numbers, you have to accept that over 1/4 of the Republicans have also lost confidence in Bush. I happen to believe that about 2/3 of Americans are serious about the war on terror. They just don't believe that this President is effectively fighting it. To many of us, for example, the first step in protecting America is get control of the borders. After that is done, then one can look at the issues of how to fight it over-seas. Instead, we've done this in reverse. Further, it was perhaps acceptable to get rid of Saddam, but getting rid of the entire security infrastructure in Iraq that then forced us to try to rebuild that society virtually from scratch - something we had neither the troops for nor a plan on how to accomplish - became the issue. Again, this is about Bush - not so much about Red vs. Blue. We need a president we have confidence in, and it has become increasingly obvious that this President simply doesn't seem to know how to make the trains run on time. The immigration bill is now dead, and a few days after that, we saw the government cancel the new passport program for those going to Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean, because it didn't hire the people necessary to process the paperwork before it implemented the new law. As a result, 100,000's of Americans found themselves caught up in bureaucratic delays that threatened their vacations and their ability to conduct normal business. Most of us, I suspect, would've hired those people first. But not this government. And that, in the end, seems to be the real issue.

Christianity is about the individual?
SCampbell, you write, "Christianity is about the individual, not the collective". This is a modern, American take on Christianity that has no foundation in the utterances of Christ as recorded in the New Testament. When does Christ ever elevate the individual above community?

Just as you characterize my notion that a Christian nation taxes for charitable purposes as hippie-fied, I think your concept of Charity is heavily informed by American individualism. More classical interpretations of Christianity posit that the entire goal fo Christianity is to surrender our own, petty desires and ambitions and meld with the host of angels in signing God's praise. Not much room for the individual there!

Eben
"...believe that about 2/3 of Americans are serious about the war on terror. They just don't believe that this President is effectively fighting it."

I know many here think New Orleans deserved to be crushed and Iraq is all the Iraqis' fault. But don't you think that in reality Vic et al have what they want -- ineffective federal government? Just the latest is the amount of border fence they could not build and the passports they could not issue or my special issue, the wounded soldiers they abandon...




Christ and government.
Funny, I have read the book and never quite found the part that said that the way we help others is to have the Romans or the Priests take our riches and give it to others...it was all about how the individual should act toward others, himself and God.

SCampbell
no, no, no let's not agrue yet again over the book any of them or all versions

To Hal Donahue
What I want is a small federal government as invisioned by the founders. The federal government should have had NO responsibility in dealing with NO instead of minimal.

As far as Iraq goes I was opposed to going into Iraq but that dog has already been hunted. Congress approved going in and we did. Once that happens the time for debate is over. Debating the "worthwhileness" of a war while it is in progress gives aid and comfort to the enemy and is treason.

And finally, I don't necessarily advocate a border fence. I advocate enforcing existing law by what ever means necessary. If that means a fence and troops, then so be it. If it means mining the border, then that will work too. Personnaly, being somewhat familiar with security and fences, I know that simply building a fence by itself will NOT work.

gaysford
since when is a link support. newspapaers do fine with quotes. try it. the links and the blogs are roads to crapola and weak thinking. if you cannot express the thought doubt your understading of it.

Hal Donahue
"What red states say amounts to saying we must fear everything and everyone."

I don't know that there is any great fear among residents of red states of Hindus or Buddhists. We do fear Muslims, however.

"What the Blue States are saying is yes the terrorists are back again and we must take action and eliminate them but they are not going to make us live in fear and hide."

I know plenty of blue-state people who don't even want to take action against terrorists. It's all our fault, they say. When I point out that these same terrorists are going after, not just us, but also Hindus, Buddhists, third-world Christians, Danes, Russians, the British, Spaniards, and even leftists, they have nothing to say.

Conundrum
Why is it that in the carbon tax/credit/indulgence scheme the only thing that changes hands is dollars? Confiscating money from energy users proportionately to the amount of energy is a financial transfer which involves absolutely no alteration to that amount of energy used. By itself, such a mechanism effects no change in the amount of energy used. The only people impacted by such a scam are those who lack the financial resources to afford both the cost of energy and the tax. In other words, the poor are the ones who get the shaft from such a scam.
On the other front, the sky is faaling, oops I mean the climate is changing. No kiddin' Dick Tracy, where'd you leave your squad car? The cimate has been in flux since it came into existence. The atmosphere is a large, complex, dynamic system which we do not understand beyond an extremely limited ability to predict phenomena on a very localized scale. The only reliable conclusion we may reach about the state of the climate is that it is changing, always has, and always will. Then there is another question more salient to the debate. Is the present climate & temperature level of the planet the optimum one for the planet and further who gets to decide what that optimum temperature is? Mull those over for a while and you will come to the inescapable conclustion that the positions for AlGWWh*re and friends are based in unimaginable arrogance, but what else is new?

Vic
"Debating the "worthwhileness" of a war while it is in progress gives aid and comfort to the enemy and is treason."

That simply is a lie. Blind obedience is the role of slaves and probably the key factor for the fall of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. REAL TREASON is to remain quiet in the face of idiocy.


g gaisford
gaisford posted, "Global warming, on the other hand, we MAY still have a chance to do something about."


The operative word is "MAY". If there was empirical evidence that anthropogenic global warming is occurring (instead of cyclical GW), you "may" have a case.

The fact that there is empirical evidence that radical Muslims want to kill us far outweighs your specious AGW.

JFP
"I know plenty of blue-state people who don't even want to take action against terrorists. It's all our fault, they say."

I know some and I know some neo cons who wanted to start a pre emptive nuclear war against the Soviet Union. Thank Allah none of them, right or left, were ever close to a majority. Now you have crazy Leiberman calling to invade Iran I just shake my head

DavidMac
Look you should be used to people trying to kill you. Just living in the US means you have a better chance to be killed than most countries including many war zones. Why this fear and yes, terror?

Hal Donahue
Lieberman wanting to invade Iran represents a normal Democratic reaction to an extremely reactionary regime.

The fact that most Democrats don't want to invade Iran just shows how abnormal most Democrats are these days. Democrats are just hopelessly confused.

Consider that Democrats typically have a hissy fit if they hear about red-state people spanking their kids. BUT consider that Democrats these days also say nothing about the blood-curdling stories of Muslim families who kill their own daughters because she has "dishonored" them.

Try to be consistent, OK?

hal
gotta call bs. living in the usa is more dangerous than most war zones and countrys? miss yer meds today? i split time living in nicaragua and costa rica. i think you are full o beans.

JFP
Utter nonsense. Do you have a clue how often some extreme chickenhawk in here calls for invading Iran? It is neo con, R and caonservative dogma. How can you even imply it is a D position? Please a tiny modicum of reality....

gc
"gotta call bs. living in the usa is more dangerous than most war zones and countrys? miss yer meds today? i split time living in nicaragua and costa rica. i think you are full o beans."

I spend time in the UK and Argentina. All I am saying is that in the 80's when I was in Beirut I used to tell my wife relax I am safer here than in the states and I had the data to back it up. Your icon Rush still keeps saying that Iraq is safer for GIs than being in the states but I don't have the numbers now. But you and I know the fallacy here in the states it is unlikely they are looking for "you" in a war they are LOL

JFP
What do you plan on invading Iran with?

JFP
"Consider that Democrats typically have a hissy fit if they hear about red-state people spanking their kids. BUT consider that Democrats these days also say nothing about the blood-curdling stories of Muslim families who kill their own daughters because she has "dishonored" them." This again is simply false why pick extremes? Don't you think it is about time to come to the middle and grow instead of this hateful extreme nonsense on both sides

Hal Donahue
The fact that neo-cons want to invade doesn't preclude Dems from wanting to invade, too.

Please, a tiny modicum of logic.

JFP
Invade why? and probably most important what then?

Hal
I imagine some prefer an ineffective federal government, but it's likely that more want it to be at least reasonably effective, particularly when it comes to issues of security. However, my take is that having become so large, and having taken much of the power that was constitutionally given to the states, it has become almost unmanageable precisely because there is no longer an effective state vs. federal government relationships. Homeland Security is a classic example. It may have been some idealists view of how it "should" work, but we've seen repeatedly that it simply "doesn't" work because no one can run something that large and make it responsive to the public.

I've believed for years now that Bush always wants to solve it all, rather than take steps towards an eventual solution. It's some kind of hangup with the man. Consider, you can help the 25% of so of the people that have problems paying for drugs, or you can give everyone money. You can deal with the 25% or 30% of the school districts that don't seem to be working well - or you can federalize all of them. You can mobilize the principal intelligence agencies to deal with Homeland Security, or you can throw everyone and everything into the same department. You can get rid of Saddam and keep much of the security infrastructure, or you can throw it all out and build from scratch. You can pass a bill focussed on controlling borders, and once you know that you can then deal with the illegals you then know you have - and will have, or you can write something larger than the bible, and try to do everything.

Big ideas are fine - I imagine. But a more sensible President would've understood that taking successful steps is wiser than having a utopian vision of how to reform everything - including the world.

Hal
that you were safer in beruit is also bs. i do not care what cooked stats you pull out of your hat. if you do not live in crack town you are very safe in the usa compared to almost anywhere in the world. including toronto, paris, moscow, havana, and sydney. all places that ban firearms. get in the real world.

To gc
You can not debate Hal. You can make a comment and you will get back Democrap talking points.

http://www.democrats.org/a/2006/04/dnc_announces_v.php

Hal Donahue
"Invade why?"

Because their leaders love patriarchy, and Democrats hate patriarchy. Why is this so difficult for you?

As for what happens next, so far (if you'll look at my posts) I've been talking merely about WANTING to invade. Actually invading might not be prudent. But Democrats don't even seem to want to invade. They don't even seem to hate a patriarchal regime.

Let me say it again: try to be consistent.

Gaisford, red/blue stats
It's like the old saying - there are lies, darn lies, and then there are statistics.

Just for fun -

Blue states have a slightly lower crime rate than red states. On the other hand, the crime rates and murder rates of blue counties are multiples of five and ten that of red counties.

The murder capitals of the country - St. Louis and New Orleans are in (somewhat) red STATES, but, checking the polls - those cities voted for Kerry 4:1.

There are more divorces in red states - twice as many per thousand at the margins. The big catch, of course, is that there are more marriages in red states - a three times higher rate at the margins.

The out of wedlock birthrate may be higher in red states, as the native birthrate is higher in red states (white birth rate is 63% higher at the margins, all races is 82% higher at the margins), as the abortion rate is higher in blue states (10 times higher rates at the margins).

And, again, there's no easy data to find for counties. It's a safe assumption that the blue county/red county data is even more stark.

And, just anecdotal evidence, but I'd guess that blue states/counties also have a lower crime rate because they're less likely to enforce laws. The Boston police department has over 800,000 unserved warrants - that's 15% of the entire population. Willimantic, Connecticut is a town that became the heroin capital of the world a few generations ago because of its reputation that the authorities would not enforce drug laws - even now, the place looks like a zombie movie at night. Hartford, Connecticut is a city that has no shops or restaurants downtown, none - they couldn't keep 'em open with all the crime. Now think of immigration laws - what would California's crime rate be if they prosecuted ILLEGAL immigrants and work fraud? Yadda yadda, on and on.

Of course, all this is masking the uncomfortable fact that southern states have the highest concentration of blacks, the population that has the highest crime rates by far and the highest out-of-wedlock birth rates by far. The top ten states with the highest percentage of blacks are all red states.

Fun with numbers.











While immigration
was receiving all the attention, it is little known that Bush gave away the store at the G8 meetings. If you thought Kyota bad check again at what he has done while we were otherwise occupied. Check the control he has given to the UN in regard to global warming and in regard to control of the waterways.

Perhaps it is time
...to seriously consider a peaceful division of the country. Blues and Reds don't disagree by matters of degree... we have wholesale differences of opinion on fundamental matters of truth, philosophy, morality, gov't, and virtually every other question of human existence.

I would be willing to do as Abraham did with Lot and offer liberals the half they wanted... as I am fairly confident that God's blessing would go with those who respect both individual freedom and personal responsibility.

Alaska's Favorite Daughter(& America's?)
Michael Barone is as good as it gets on Townhall.

Today, on my blog (click on above) I'm going to launch a week-long (!) discussion of Sarah Palin for vice-president of the United States (and down the road, perhaps as the first female President of our wonderful country). This young woman, the wildly popular governor of Alaska and an important social conservative, is someone people on TH need to know about. My material on her is beginning to show up this morning -- and will continue for the rest of the week. It should be very interesting to readers, and it will include material from several other frequent visitors to my site. Enjoy! (Any material that appears on this site will be offered to the Anchorage Daily News and other media outlets in Alaska and elsewhere.) Please join this grassroots efforts to revitalize and strengthen the Republican Party.

steve


Post it
The trouble with things like that is that you have to break it down to the county level to make any sense. Further, you have to break out the racial demographics. Unfortunately and without offering a reason, blacks are more likely to murder and be a murder victim. La is about 25% black and I would almost guarantee that a disproportionate number of their murderers are black. I would highly suspect that the murder rate amongst whites isn't out of line with other states.

I'm not writing this with any pleasure or to make a generalization about black people... just stating the facts as they exist.

gc
stats please?

Vic
That is me thank you but I seldom do talking points

STEVE SPAM
more spam from steve as if he is btter informed than barone or anyone else. boycott spam

Post^It
" the native birthrate is higher in red states (white birth rate is 63% higher at the margins, all races is 82% higher"

There are that many American Indians in red states?

jfp
"As for what happens next, so far (if you'll look at my posts) I've been talking merely about WANTING to invade. Actually invading might not be prudent."

This is getting too scary we agree again

GLOBAL WARMING CAUSES MORE CO2
The greenies have their cause and effect backa$$wards. As the planet warms, the oceans release more CO2 into the atmosphere. More CO2 in the atmosphere doesn't cause global warming, it's an effect of global warming.

The 'average global temperature' increased about 1 degree last century. The best science shows it also increased 1 degree the century before that, and also the 1 before that. These temperature increases are related end of the Little Ice Age.

Hal Donahue
The fact that people like you insist upon using a term like "native American" for American Indians doesn't mean the rest of us have to use it.

Another bit of mindlessness from the left is "African-American" for all blacks. Is Nelson Mandela an African-American? Obviously not, since he's not an American. How about Thierry Henry? Every time I see him I can't help but think that he looks so American, but of course he's French and lives in England.

SJT18....
Right. And, of course, Blacks are blue, voting 9:1 Democrat.

You'd also have to take into consideration the relative age of the white populations. Young people commit more crime - white blues don't reproduce.

Umm...as for splitting up the country, I think another Civil War might come eventually. But I'm up in Boston and I've found the secret for turning white blues red - God. I'll probably spend some time trying to save the ship before jumping South.






SSGTRET
Back and feeling stronger every day. Thank you. I hope all is well with you too.

"Is a suicide bomber extreme, or lopping off ones head? Now let me ask ya buddy, which side of the isle is EXTREME?"

Suicide bombers are extreme lopping off heads not so much actually been done throughout history. Terrorists are just trash, criminals and confused and nothing new. Seeing our great and strong country react in fear and panic to them while letting the terrorists go is extreme and a sad sight to behold

Re: Hal
By native, of course, I meant "un-Mexican".

JFP
You used the term first I asked what that meant?

Post^It
"Umm...as for splitting up the country, I think another Civil War might come eventually."

I am fairly certain the results will be the same

Perceived threats...different visions?
And in the middle of the fray, as always, is one George Soros and his Socialist cohorts. Will the flag of SPECTER fly on the same mast as ours come 2008?

Later folks
I am off to do the lord's work

post it
i imagine mexicans do not think much of you either. sound judgement on teir part.

RED & BLUE

.....Edwards has it right ...(there are two Americas) ...but the divide is cultural and hence political ...

.....the defining issue of the 2008 election will not be the War on Islamo-fascism or Global Warming ...(God I hope that Gore wins the Nobel Prize so that he will jump into the Presidental Race) ...the issue that will define the election and the future of America into the next century ...is Illegal Immigration ...

.....the candidate who can convince the voters that he/she can cure this cancer that began in 1965 with LBJ and Ted Kennedy ...will win the election .....COLOSSUS

Oversimplification of reality
This is not a criticism of Barone, who makes some correct observations about the animating issues dividing the two main political movements. It is also true that in a two-party system either one party or the other will win, and in analyzing/predicting these outcomes, it is easy to speak in terms of red state/blue state, as if the inhabitants of each state could be neatly pigeon-holed into one of two polarized extremes.

Reality of course is a lot more complex and in reaching one of two political choices, an infinite spectrum of views, perspectives, and trade-offs must be distilled. This complexity of reality is what makes predicting political outcomes so inexact.

What of the citizen who believes the threat of Islamo-terrorism is real and must be addressed, but who is also deeply concerned about environmental issues? How will he vote?

What of the morally conservative Christian who believes there is a legitimate role for government-sponsored charity?

What about the fiscally conservative libertarian? The law-and-order welfare statist? The secure borders pro-choicer? These people exist, and in greater numbers than is generally acknowledged. The way the votes of these people fall out from one election cycle to the next can hinge on matters of shifting circumstance and degree. And while many people may be described as single issue voters, in reality there are few people who only care about one issue, even if there happens to be a predominant issue directing their vote.

It is true that the charted bell curve of our political spectrum has definitely flattened out in recent decades as disintegrating cultural homogeneity sends more and more people toward the extremes. It is still a bell curve though, and the biggest concentration still resides in the middle. It is not, as is inferred in articles such as these, an inverted bell curve where the majority resides on the extremes.

I believe that, all these things being true, the outcomes of national elections tend to turn more on the direction and degree to which the “hump of the bell” can be shifted than to capturing those supposed few “undecideds” who haven’t yet decamped the middle for one of the extremes.

A Simple Explanation
When hundreds upon hundreds of prominent scientists, including chairmen of university science departments, agree on a scientific issue, it hardly makes sense for people who are not scientists to say "that is foolishness" since they simply do not have the knowledge to judge for themselves (and I include myself among the know-nothings because I am not trained as a scientist). Those who rant against the reality of global warming have now been taught and influenced by certain spokesmen. And those spokesmen have, indeed, a political agenda, one directed by the business community. It is one thing to say "the polar ice cap is melting" because if it melting, then it is melting, and thermometers can prove a change in temperature.

But it's another thing to say that gaseous emissions from industry are causing that ice to melt, that climate to change, because then business is at risk, money-making is at risk, and so belief that industry is responsible MUST be discouraged---the public must be taught to disbelieve and to ridicule. In a dictatorship those in power can bash people's heads in to force their behavior. In a free society, public opinion must be controlled so that voting will be controlled. Journalist Walter Lippmann called this "manufactured opinion". The result is that we have people who don't know the difference between Fahrenheit and Centigrade announcing "global warming is a hoax...bad science...junk science". How would they know that?

gc, FYI
There are people here who do write blogs, myself among them, and one of the reasons I encourage people to go to my blog if I have an on-topic essay posted is to save space here.

If you'd prefer, I can cheerfully post my whole essay as a comment, which would then take 7 or 8 "page downs" of space here.

Or, people can go see my comment at my blog if they have any interest.

Your bellyaching doesn't make much sense to me.



brian
spam is spam, maybe i could post my offers here as well.

To Lilly
A scientist is an expert in at least one area of science who uses the scientific method to do research. The UN panel which has issued the report and findings on AGW meet none of the above conditions. They are politicians. The supposed scientists who did the research did not use scientific method. Also note that "consensus" is not listed as a qualification. People keep claiming consensus on this issue and it is wrong on two scores. 1st consensus has no place in true science AND there is no consensus in favor of AGW. This is a myth pronulgated by the enviro-whackos.

Robert
Say there's a town with 1,000 people, 500 men and 500 women. One of the men -- no one knows who -- is a serial rapist. Would you call a woman in that town who feared all the men stupid? Or bigoted?

Poor Lilly
Let me disabuse you of some of your misunderstanding.

When you speak of the “hundreds and hundreds” of scientists supposedly sharing in this consensus of opinion, you are of necessity including people who are not qualified in the field of climatology. There simply are not “hundreds and hundreds” of climatologists in the world.

There is not a consensus of opinion among scientists in the relevant field(s) as to the primary cause of global warming, the future consequences of global warming or mankind’s ability to alter the global climate. To suggest there is such a consensus is delusional. In fact, the closer one’s scientific specialization is to a field that touches on climatology, the less of a consensus there is. The opinions of social scientists, mathematicians, and economists are worth no more than the opinions of business leaders and political activists when it comes to discussing

To point out that “global warming deniers” have a political agenda, while ignoring the manifest agenda of the environmentalist movement is beyond self-serving and obvious. The environmentalist movement advocates for the implementation of specific compulsory restrictions on freedoms that do not exist at present. Those who oppose them, advocate only for the continuance of the status quo, that is, a continuation of our current level of freedoms.


Dear Lilly
Speaking just for myself, I am not influenced by "spokesmen." My objection to the hysteria over global warming is due to having Thomas Kuhn inflicted upon my in college courses and in conversations with many leftists in the humanities.

Those leftists have urged one or more of the following propositions:
1. Objective truth is impossible to attain.
2. Scientific theories will eventually be replaced by new theories.
3. Observation is tainted because it is "theory-laden."
4. Scientific theories merely express the values of the dominant group in society.

Furthermore, these leftists have a tendency to smear those who disagree with them as racists, sexists, and homophobes.

And so we see the despicable way in which the left works. Those leftists who are environmentalists condemn you as a destroyer of the earth if you don't believe in global warming. And those leftists who are postmodernists (implicitly) condemn you as racist, sexist and homophobic if you do believe in global warming.

well, gc
How about if I say I find your "thoughts" a total waste of time and space?

Oh, wait, it's a public forum.....

Guess you're just gonna have to live with it, bud.

gc, and the BIG HOAX .

I agree. If there is the tell-tale underline of a posters screen name, or a hyper-link in a post, I will skip reading their post, clicking "on their name" or on the the link.

I too wish that TH would ban the spammers and the link posters. They are a boring lot and their opinion or linked info is usually empty calories.

BrianR (underlined)

Embrace the s**k.

Redland vs Blueland
If the Red States became a separate country and the Blue States became a different country, my bet is that the Reds would attack the Blues.

1) Reds are always recommending armed aggression---they want to bomb, nuke, flatten, annihilate, vaporize and return to the Stone Age any country they don't like. Not long ago one poster suggested that any nation in which Muslims live should be bombed with atomic weapons. That would pretty much get rid of the whole earth. What the hell.

2) Reds don't tolerate anybody different from themselves. They want to round up all 12 million illegal immigrants and deport them in cattle cars. One of them advised that we should surround the United States with a minefield with motion sensors so that anybody crossing it would be immediately shot dead---bodies would be dumped on the distant side of the border. In fact, we might surmise that Reds aren't too keen on any Hispanics since we often hear about Latinos being scum and cockroaches etc, other nice terms, and the mere sight of a Spanish language sign gives them convulsions. Reds don't want gays to be allowed either---posts have recommended that they should be denied access to housing, employment, worship, insurance coverage, and the right to marry or parent. And Reds have limited tolerance of journalists, college professors, and other bookish types.

3) Reds are VERY much in favor of armed intervention. They describe, in loving detail, their personal armories. Their solution for any problem is "line them up and shoot them"---this has been recommended for Muslims, feminists, lawyers, judges, and CPAs recently on townhall.

4) Diplomatic negotiation? Forget it. Red State types like to end their posts with a statement of finality like "End of story".

So, given this history, I would say that any neighbor-state of Redland would be at risk of being attacked (lined up and shot, nuked, vaporized, the works). Too dangerous. We must remain one nation if only to protect those among us who don't want to kill the other guys.

nolongersilent
But was g_gaisford post of 6:49am post also correct that those donations were dwarfed?

"I wonder if religion plays a role in this equation?"

What the lower incomes?

lilly
Excellent point! It would not be right to slaughter and conquer them many for the second time

Bucko: LOL
I have no idea what "s**k" is, but right back atcha, suckah.


Blueland versus Redland
If, as you theorize, the red and blue states formed their own countries, I foresee a different reality. The government of the Blues would round up everyone who criticized them or disagreed with them. They would toss them into “re-education” camps and gulags, where they would be tortured and lobotomized, because everyone knows that leftists want to kill everyone who disagrees with them.

It is a proven fact that the Blues would confiscate the assets of everyone and nationalize all the businesses. The Blues would take away your children as soon as they are weaned so that they can be properly raised to serve the state. It is known for a fact that the Blues would abolish all religion other than the state prescribed and controlled religion of Statism.

It is common knowledge that all appointments to colleges and other selective schools would be made based on Blue Party affiliation and political correctness.

These facts are irrefutable, or at least as irrefutable as your fevered and asinine stereotypes.

And to think you are presumably allowed to vote. God help us all.

Sandman
You're spot on. It's about the hump of the bell, not about the "undecideds", necessarily. So the winner will either be the Global Warming champ who knows how to talk a good War on Terror, or the War on Terror champ who knows how to make the fight against Global Warming sound important, too.

The loser will be whoever decides one of the two isn't worth their time or energy.

Lilly:a few more things to add
A MSM would not be allowed in the Red States.

It would be FOX News, The Christian Newtwork,
The Disney Channel and Right Wing Conservative
Radio with Limbaugh types..

Rock and Roll, Rap Music, & heavy metal music would be banned.

Hollywood would no longer exist. scripts for new movies would have to be approved by the Right Wing High Council.

SandMan
June, 11, 2007 1:05 PM Just kind of proves that the red states would just drown in bombast and name calling

Left Angle
NO, NO, NO, NO not Disney they are FAR too gay friendly

Reds vs. Blues
Let's straighten a few things out here:

1) The population of people who post on these boards is by no means a representative sample of all conservatives, neo-cons, libertarians, etc. You can't equate the views of the entire conservative movement with the views of the small population that posts here. I certainly don't agree with the opinions of every other conservative or libertarian on these boards, nor do they always agree with me.

"They want to round up all 12 million illegal immigrants and deport them in cattle cars."

2) Cattle cars?!?! Where the hell did you hear that? And what is so racist and horrible about wanting to secure the borders of this country? We do not have the resources to support an influx of millions of refugees from Mexico or anywhere else.

"Reds don't tolerate anybody different from themselves."

3) You don't want to go there, do you? Believe me, there is plenty of this kind of behavior on ALL sides of the politcal spectrum. Look at your own comments about people who disagree with your views about (a) whether or not immigrants should be encouraged to learn English, (2) whether or not gays should be allowed to marry, (3) the use of force to fight terrorism, etc.

"And Reds have limited tolerance of journalists, college professors, and other bookish types."

4) We have little tolerance for psuedo-intellectuals who use faulty, biased "research" to shove an agenda down our throats. Especially when those same people are quick to point fingers at the bias of those who question their "research".

"Red State types like to end their posts with a statement of finality like "End of story".

5) That's also the way those who believe Global Warming is caused by humans end their posts. Once again, you really don't want to go there.

Already been done...
Blueland : Redland = North Korea : South Korea.
---------------

|"A MSM would not be allowed in the Red States."|

Okay.

|"Rock and Roll, Rap Music, & heavy metal music would be banned."|

Three more pluses.

|"Hollywood would no longer exist. scripts for new movies would have to be approved by the Right Wing High Council."|

Sold! ...LOL



Robert
WOW!!! Great response

Boy Robert
You sure LOL a lot.Especially if it is at something that makes sense.

Only idiot, and the insane do this. Which catatgory are you in? Both?

You talk and talk, and say nothing!!I have yet to make sense of anything you say.

Post^It, 10:52 AM
"But I'm up in Boston and I've found the secret for turning white blues red - God."

Yes, introducing liberals to Christ usually draws them toward the right politically; it happened to me. But how do you go about getting them to listen in the first place?

I'm moving to Massachusetts soon, and I'd like to hear more about this from you. Please feel free to write me, inkling_wannabe@yahoo.com.

nolongersilent
"Well, I bet the crime rate goes down"

You know it might well do becaause your people would be migrating to blue states for work and social freedom

nanna
and she slithers out from under her slimy rock to spray invective.... welcome nanna

Really Hal?
Exactly how does my 1:05 post differ from the 12:39 post of Lillie’s that I was satirizing? You are a typical leftist - willfully blind to the tactics and tone of those you agree with, but quick on the trigger when it comes to holding conservatives to a higher standard of conduct.

I will grant you one concession however. While I was only satirizing Lillie’s post to make a point, I am capable of more coherent dialogue. Poor Lillie, on the other hand, does not appear capable of discoursing in any other manner, judging from her typical posts. You do yourself no favors by engaging in self-congratulatory preening with the likes of her, even if you are birds of the same political feather.

Robert
I expected it based on his Vietnam era experience. I was in Thailand watching guys scared to death vomiting over the cockpit rails and often soiling their clothes waiting to take off on missions over the North that they knew with almost absolute certainty they would all not return but they went and did well.

At the same time GW missed a flight physical and was removed from flying status just as they were converting to aircraft that was being used in Southeast Asia. By missing that flight physical he ran. He was a coward then he was a coward on 9/11.

Hal
Since you are so full of insight, please tell us how "President Gore" would have handled 9/11.


Icedog
No clue but I wager that there would be a combined allied force in Afghanistan along with vast social changes and Osama's head would be on a pike or in prison. We would be operating low level troughout the world as we so often have. The Saudi's would be under tremendous pressure to restructure and there would be a Palastinian/Israel peace treaty of some kind in conjunction with the UN. Iran would have a new government and if Saddam was still hanging on to power he had his first romance novel published. I could go on and on ... oh yes we would still be the leader of the western world instead of isolated and alone

Robert's incredible misanalysis
Wow, the leftists have taken over this thread. This accounts for the vacuum of cogent ideas.

The strategy for the Iraq has nothing whatsoever to do with fear. On the contrary, it's a bold, innovative, long-term strategy that shows some promise of working if we as a nation manage to muster the patience to stick with it until it pays off.

The problem being addressed is a long-term problem that all aware analysts were aware of long before 9/11: the growing threat from activist Muslims intending to attack the West. We faced 1.6 billion people who learned from the cradle to hate and fear western culture. There was a more immediate side-threat of a significantly-armed secular nation (Iran) squaring off as our enemy.

The proposed solution, being carried out by way of the Iraq war, was to plant a free, prosperous, democratic republic in the middle east. As such a nation prospers, it would highlight the role of oppression in the poverty of middle-east nations, directing the anger of the populace away from the West and toward their own leaders, who are, in fact, responsible for the poverty and suffering.

And it's working. Iraq can and will prosper (it's already on its way), and surrounding nations are already feeling the pressure from their populaces, and thinking about liberalizing.

The funny thing about leftists attempting psychoanalysis of the President is that in order to be a leftist, you have to be almost completely devoid of insight about the human soul (especially your own). The consequence is that every time a liberal offers a psychological analysis, it's so far off the mark that it's really pretty funny. Often, they're invoking concepts about which they wouldn't know the real thing if it bit their stones off. In this case, they're just completely missing the boat, having no observations about the President that are not thoroughly disfigured by bias.

Icedog
I stand corrected Albania has shown that it strongly supports Bush

Hal, you either lie or are ignorant
of the fact that Bush asked for assignment to a combat squadron in Vietnam and was refused.

Hal Donohue
You must absolutely be joking. Al Gore, who so micromanaged his own campaign that he couldn't present a single, coherent image of his own presidency? Succceed in Afghanistan, and have Osama's head on a pike? He would never have even attack Afghanistan. He would have offered disingenuous condolences to the families of those who lost loved ones, sworn to find the perpetrators, and then began negotiations with the Taliban to get them to release bin Laden into our custody. Four years later, the US would have signed a statement admitting to oppressing Muslims worldwide and apologizing for causing hunger throughout the middle east, and the Gore administration would be announcing that they were close to securing talks with one of bin Laden's lieutenants regarding what concessions they would grant us in exchange for our ceasing our attempts to arrest bin Laden.

You're right about the Israeli/Palestinian accord, though. Gore certainly would have talked Israel into signing yet another worthless document that will be ignored by Islamic extremists, while Gore would spend the next 20 years shuttling around the globe on the strength of his prowess as a peace negotiator.

Hal Donahue
Where do you get off, you leftist hack, calling Bush a coward. Your opinion is not supported by the evidence you offer to justify it.

I think your efforts would be better spent trying to convince your idol, and serial war-record liar, Jack (Earmark) Murtha to resign his House seat.

Click here for recap of Murtha's disgraceful conduct. http://www.mediaresearch.org/BozellColumns/newscolumn/2006/col20060117.asp

Hal Donahue, 2:37 PM
Let's see... in the last year, Canada elected a pro-US conservative... Mexico elected a noderately pro-US conservative... France elected a pro-US conservative...

Yep, Bush as absolutely ruined our reputation around the world.

Liberalism -- a fact-free zone.

BrianR
All I know is what he did... or in the case of his flight physical did not do

BrianR
I do know if he had converted they would have taken him in a second we were running out of guys...

Well, consider yourself corrected.
.

nolongersilent
"You miss understood Icedog's question, he asked you how "President Gore" would've handled 9/11, not your fantasy president."

Pretty much as Bush did until Bush went off the tracks in Iraq

nolongersilent
Bush promised Afghanistan a rebuilding program that would dwarf the Marshall Plan Gore would have mad that promise to but kept it

Hal
Ahhh, now I see. If the Goracle had won the election he would have been transformed into some kind of super genius, but the loss of the election had a completely opposite effect and now we have....

Think you for clearing that up, it explains a lot!

inkling_revival
Now you are channeling your fantasy Gore probably as a salve to your conscience for voting for the current incompetent

SandMan
Every word I said is supported by the Bushies ask them then

I must have hit another nerve again you are degenerating to name calling

inkling_revival
and all those people are to the left of me. You think they like and respect Bush?

OK then
Off to do some good work for veterans and the military. Should be back later. Enjoy!

Isn't it values?
Isn't the problem in this nation, liberalism? It has been since the 1960's. Their values undermine American history, heritage, goals, individualism, liberty, freedom, democracy and our Judeo-Christian worldview. Isn't this the real problem? Democrats are liberals first and Americans next or whereever the latest fad is. Whatever emotes drives liberals, drives Dems. They never apologize for their disasters either on foreign or domestic agendas. They just go on to the latest fad and emotive cause of the day. And, they want Government unstopped to achieve the complete renovation of American values, nobiltiy and charitible compassion. There are events like the generational war against Islamofascim which divides Red and Blue. Global warming is another 'cause' which replaces true spirituality. From education, welfare, SS, health care, dealing with crime, illegals, criminals,the environment vs needed energy efforts via nuclear-oil drilling-coal use, liberals 'feel' things but not for the benefit for the entire nation. They are indeed, socialist pacifist European in their make-up. That now is our real division. Values.

Re: inkling_revival
Responded.

lilly
"lilly writes: Monday, June, 11, 2007 12:39 PM
Redland vs Blueland
If the Red States became a separate country and the Blue States became a different country, my bet is that the Reds would attack the Blues."

As long as the blues didn't attempt to foist their stupidity on us as they do now... I bet you're wrong. Of course since liberals live to tell others what to do... I guess you have a point. The red states probably would attack to protect their liberty.

"1) Reds are always recommending armed aggression---they want to bomb, nuke, flatten, annihilate, vaporize and return to the Stone Age any country they don't like."

"Always"? Nope. Only when provoked.

Had we been thus divided, Bush 1 would have never been president and the debate would be between absolute libertarians and small gov't conservatives. I doubt we would have meddled in Kuwait at all.

"2) Reds don't tolerate anybody different from themselves."

That's pretty hypocritical. It is liberals who constantly want to tell others who they must accept and what moral cause they have to fund... not conservatives.

"They want to round up all 12 million illegal immigrants and deport them in cattle cars."

I am one who thinks amnesty done right is a very practical approach. I also think the only way you close the border is to post snipers along it.

But only one question really applies to you on this topic: Did these people violate US Law and did they know it? Since the answer to both is yes, I'll leave it to you to figure out how to explain your disregard for the rule of law.

"One of them advised that we should surround the United States with a minefield with motion sensors so that anybody crossing it would be immediately shot dead---bodies would be dumped on the distant side of the border."

I am willing to wager that fewer, not more, people would die crossing the border if there was a direct threat of being killed for doing it. People die now through exposure and accidents... because we virtually encourage them to cross illegally and don't make the costs of doing so any higher than a mere inconvenience.

"In fact, we might surmise that Reds aren't too keen on any Hispanics"

I actually love and respect the ones I've known.

"Reds don't want gays to be allowed either---posts have recommended that they should be denied access to housing,"

No. If someone is willing to rent to them or sell them property that is a purely private and "consensual" matter. What we oppose is gov't forcing one party in the matter to ignore their rights to free conscience and property.

"employment,"

Again, if someone wants to hire them (and most have no problems finding jobs now even in small conservative companies) then fine. What we object to is the use of gov't force to restrict the rights of one to extend privilege and favor to another. There is no such thing as a right to employment. All employment is a privileged, contractural agreement between two parties for the labor resource of one of them.

A homosexual or Baptist for that matter has no more right to work for a given company than a vendor has a right to sell them floor cleaning products.

"worship,"

They have a right to worship. They do not have a right to worship with those who do not wish to associate with them.

"insurance coverage,"

Insurance is not a right.

"and the right to marry"

No. They do not have a right to demand that a state change the qualifications for a marriage license unless the people of that state wish to do so. There is no right to marry. A state doesn't even have to endorse heterosexual marriage if it doesn't want to.

"or parent."

They have a right to parent but they can't do it with each other, can they?

As far as adoption is concerned, it isn't a right and whoever is placing the child has an obligation to place them in the best environment they can find... which happens to be the traditional, conservative, Christian family.

"And Reds have limited tolerance of journalists, college professors, and other bookish types."

No. We have an intolerance of the leftist monopoly on the above especially when those positions of influence are used to undermine genuine rights and liberties. Those rights and liberties include freedom of conscience, expression, property, assembly, association, press, etc.

Leftists in the media currently oppose all these as they pertain to conservatives/libertarians. EX: the "Fairness Doctrine"

"3) Reds are VERY much in favor of armed intervention. They describe, in loving detail, their personal armories. Their solution for any problem is "line them up and shoot them"

Since nations prepared for war are less likely to have to fight and red, 2nd Amend. strong counties have demonstrably lower levels of the full range of crime... it would seem our solution is superior to any alternative yet offered by liberals.

"4) Diplomatic negotiation? Forget it. Red State types like to end their posts with a statement of finality like "End of story"."

Diplomacy only works when both sides are negotiating in good faith. Strength helps assure that. Further, diplomacy never works with a blind assumption of trustworthiness. The Palestinian terror groups have yet to negotiate in good faith with Israel for instance. Every exchange of land for peace has resulted in heightened violence.

"Diplomacy" isn't working with Iran for this very reason. They aren't trustworthy. Diplomacy is nothing more for them than a stall tactic.

"So, given this history, I would say that any neighbor-state of Redland would be at risk of being attacked (lined up and shot, nuked, vaporized, the works). Too dangerous. We must remain one nation if only to protect those among us who don't want to kill the other guys."

The reality is that statists like you and some even professed conservatives belong together... the rest of us deserve to be left alone by such cosmic busybodies.

The real divide is between those of us who believe that gov't that governs least governs best and those of you who believe in "good" gov't. Once you submit to that latter proposition, there has to be a debate over what constitutes "good". You and James Dobson (to a great degree) share a political philosophy. You advocate the same use of gov't force and confiscation/restriction of rights- you just differ on the definition of "good". Dobson is actually a little more libertarian than the average "progressive" who won't be satisfied until we "progress" into a condition of complete state control.

The ¿Democratic party?
I would like to repeat a post I just did on a private column/blog.

Very good writing, I like your style.

Hope you will permit me one observation.

The word democratic when possessive, as in the Democratic party. The correct form is Democrat or Democrats party. Democratic would refer to their political operations, as in they are a very democratic party. LOL

You and I both know they are not very democratic preferring instead to ramrod their candidates through the primary process leaving us with the choice between the Republican who was ram rodded through from above or the Democrat also ram rodded by his party.

That is why yesterday I suggested that no one give money to either party, but only to the local candidate of your choice.

Do not give to the parties, only to your local candidate of choice. That will break the back of the national power centers, and return to the states and districts control over who gets the nomination for any party.

Icedog: If Al Gore Had Been Prez..
9-11-01 most likely would NEVER have happened.

sjt18: dude you are scary
sjt18 states:

"I am willing to wager that fewer, not more, people would die crossing the border if there was a direct threat of being killed for doing it.
I also think the only way you close the border is to post snipers along it".

Imho people who state things like the above need
are mentally unstable...and I'm willing to bet
that you personally would not pick up a weapon and kill someone for crossing the border illegally. yes or no?

Robert
Theo van Gogh tried your tack of not fearing Muslims. It didn't work for him. Remember?

tanabear
"The kind of Blues, and Reds for that matter, who seem unconcerned about immigration are those who live in rich, posh, upscale gated-communities."

Does not apply here, I am happily doing urban homesteading and enjoying every minute I am even learning Spanish. I suspect what you say might be true of the Reds though

Left Angle
The question isn't whether I would shoot someone or not... It is whether the threat of being shot would deter people from crossing. Are you attempting to argue that it wouldn't?

FTR, Why do you think we place armed guards in banks when bank robbers are unlikely to commit murder?

JFP
"Robert Theo van Gogh tried your tack of not fearing Muslims. It didn't work for him. Remember?'

Why live in fear? It simply isn't worth it. Sorry they can try and get me and even might but I will not live in fear.... You guys may but then........

BTW
I don't think soldiers or policemen undertake their professions because they desire to shoot people, do you?

I think they do it to prevent alot more people from being shot than if they weren't on duty. IOW's, they're enforcing laws and truths that protect all concerned.

FTR, I have never shot anyone or even pointed a weapon with that intent or possibility. I have absolutely no desire to. However I do know that enforcement of law has an economy for both the society and criminal... that has to be tipped in the direction of civil society by the threat of "high costs" to the criminal.

If Al Gore were President
He would also teach pigs to fly!!

Nanna
Sic em girl. Beat up on Robert boy.

Or better yet just ignore him. With no one to talk about he'll get bored and pick up his marbles.
Notice he never has anything to say except "about" what other people say.??.

Maybe he's just, lonely Robert. Wonder how he would do on a democrat blog.??. Wouldn't be fun if people agreed with him. He only likes to argue. Ignore him.

Hal Donahue
So, it was better for Theo van Gogh to say his piece without fear and die as a result?

sjt18: apples and oranges..
youre talking two different types of crime.

I'm gonna ask you again, because you didnt really answer the question.

Would you personally kill someone for crossing the border illegally? yes or no..

if the answer is no do you advocate such a law enforcement law? yes or no

if the answer is yes, how do you square that morally?

Hal
Do you lock your doors? Why?

Do you oppose and reject police protection? Why not?


onceamarine
Robert is very good I thought you welcomed thoughtful people to chat with? Possible exception for nanna of course LOL

sjt 18...I just saw your second post.
to that pretty much answers my questions..

i will say this though I think that idea is repugnant not even getting into the morals of it.

I also think there are a lot of police officers that get into the profession for the opportunity to legally carry a weapon in the open and the opportunity to shoot at people under color of law.

tanabear
You are dead right about the red and blues who live well above us in their Lear jets and gated communities.

Furthermore, they own nice homes overseas in nice countries, and usually have multiple passports as well as other currencies and valuables like gold and diamonds for any kind of convertibility crisis they might face.

Makes it pretty easy to be above the strife you and I want to avoid. Semper Fi..

sjt18
It has little to do with why they join it has to do with mission

Police mission: serve and protect

Military mission: inflict death and destruction

Left Angle
"I also think there are a lot of police officers that get into the profession for the opportunity to legally carry a weapon in the open and the opportunity to shoot at people under color of law."

I must disagree. That is the exact type person most police abhor

gc & Bucko
If you two Communists are so displeased with the way we do things at Th you don't need anyones permission to go back to codepink where you belong.

Hal Donahue
Satire this afternoon.!!.

I am not going to have any slights for you, I don't believe.

You seem to occasionally be on the right tack, and also seem to be convinced of your own arguments.

I respect that. To each his own.

hal donohue: let me say this
I'm not exactly sure what the statistics are but
unjustifiable "lethal force and physical beatings" under color of law are hardly nothing new. In fact there are some police departments that have become notorious for that very fact.

you have to think about the mentality of people who joing the police and military who have this stuff in the back of their minds from the get go.

sjt 18
Do you lock your doors?

Usually but not always. I look at locks as devises to keep out honest people

Do you oppose and reject police protection? We need police to serve and protect but do I want one on every corner? no? You conservatives seem to cringe and hide and live in terror. I have lived with terrorists around often they are just additional cowardly criminals..... You take due caution and live on. That is how you defeat terrorists hunt them down and kill or capture them and if they get lucky and succeed at an attack press on, return to normal and live well. They hate the last they hate it. The people of New York City did it so well - you know that city of deviates, foreigners, immigrants and last but not least liberals.

LA
"sjt18: apples and oranges..
youre talking two different types of crime."

No. They have a vital commonality.

We accept as a society that some crimes can be acceptably deterred through the threat of deadly force even if there is little risk of the loss of life by the victim.

"I'm gonna ask you again, because you didnt really answer the question."

Nor did you... and my question was much less personal.

"Would you personally kill someone for crossing the border illegally? yes or no.."

Honestly. I don't know. I don't know if I could kill someone in combat either though I was in the military for 7 years.

However, I do not have a moral aversion to picking up a weapon as a "threat" to protect my country and family or to enforce the law.

"if the answer is no do you advocate such a law enforcement law? yes or no"

Yes. And in the context of my original statement, the threat of such high costs would reduce the number of actual deaths by people attempting to cross the border.

I also believe that employers should be held criminally liable for using illegals.

"if the answer is yes, how do you square that morally?"

It is not immoral to enforce the law to the point where the "economy of crime" favors civil, lawful society.

Several recent studies have affirmed that the death penalty does deter crime. The primary objections are that the data is insufficient and I actually agree. However, the notion that it doesn't not do so has been shown to be purely assumed. The only real data we have says the opposite.

People are natural economists... to include criminals. When they know the costs and benefits, they'll usually make decisions that limit their risks and maximize their benefits.

Right now, there is no real good reason for an illegal not to cross the border repeatedly until they make it. There is no economically substantial reason for an employer not to hire them.

Until we change the economics of this situation significantly, it will persist no matter what Congress does now.

onceamarine
Thank you and the same to you.
Hi Myopine

Hal
I've known alot of soldiers in my time and not one of them joined for the reasons you posted.

That truly is sick of you.

Left Angle
"you have to think about the mentality of people who joing the police and military who have this stuff in the back of their minds from the get go."

This may shock you I have been both. Are there problem departments? Absolutely but most cops are truly commited to public service there are always bad apples. The same answer applies to the military. Exceptions always but over all I am proud to have stood among the ranks of both. Please don't make the mistake the right is so good at: taking a few examples and saying that is the entire "thing"

sjt18
What reason? I don't believe I gave any reason why they joined. I did say death and destruction is their mission. And honestly, you better hope it stays that way. The old "peace is our profession" is an example of false advertising

sjt18
The penalty of death deters many trivial crimes right now.

As an instance;
Pergolla hill would be a great place to skateboard. The grades would let you coast a full 13 miles between two cities.
No one ever skateboards on Pergolla hill because the vehicle traffic there moves at about 70mph.

When it is that dangerous to do something, people just don't do it.

For this same reason;
No one would be killed if we mined our border.

hal d & sjt 18: a response.
hal d:

police brutality and lethal force under "color of law" is nothing new as i said before. there
have been recent highly publicized examples of both. this stuff happens all the time and you have to think about the mentality of the individuals involved. No it's not the entire
"thing" as you say but it is a widespread problem within the police & military.

sjt 18:

the very idea of snipers on the border shooting and killing unarmed people men, women, and children for crossing the border illegally is repugnant and morally reprehensible. So what happens if they start shooting back..I suppose you would really enjoy that because it would justify what you said in the first place..

something else for you to think about...by land is only one way to cross the border illegally.

Hal Donahue - - - 4:26 pm
Just realized your comments that you are enjoying your homestead where you referenced a prior comment as to reds and blue with "gated communities".

A careful reading of your short statement is understood as "you are a blue stater" in an upscale community or posh maybe, and that only red staters in that same life style would be unconcerned. Whether you are or are not living above the mass of us, you still state in such a fashion as to be part of the uppers of blue staters.

We all know that the posh/wealthy have a very different outlook on community than those who have to get the community all over themselves whether they like it or not.

See my 4:46 pm post.

I have written fairly extensively on this at times. Don't get me started, please.

I congratulate you on learning Spanish. It may come in handy, but I doubt it.

Those who come to this country and are legal rarely appreciate a Gûero (white gringo) who speaks some Spanish. They will like your women real fine, but don't dance with theirs.

The key part of the above is "who come and are legalized", or not. You need to leave the U.S. and go south farther than northern Mexico to be accepted.

If you need help with your Spanish, perhaps I can occasionally have the time to help you.

Left Angle
Don't know anyone who would legally or otherwise enjoy shooting illegals. You don't have to when laws on the books are enforced No jobs, no illegals.

We need temporaries with the respective permit as in BRACEROS. At present only one to two percent of the illegals are working in the fields. All other needs should be legally met through work visas. That's how they do it in most countries including Mexico.

Applications are taken in the foreign consulates of the U.S. We give hundreds of thousands of visitors visas each year to Mexicans. We try to eliminate those who would probably overstay there welcome (length of visa). Temporary workers visas would be done in the same fashion, and they would be done in the order received. You know like when you stand in line to enter a theater or a stadium. First come with ticket in hand is first served. Seems rather democratic; the action not the party.

onceamarine
Nope let me explain. I am doing urban homesteading and 7 years ago bought a house habitate for Humanity turned down as a donation because it was too dangerous... No I do not live in a posh gated community but a nice vibrant neighborhood now

onceamarine
How did you manage to make an accent mark?

If I try to use my Alt key the only thing it does is make my computer sound like a pinball game.

Robert, you are a liar
Bush asked to be assigned to Vietnam. You lie through your teeth.

BrianR
Really????? proof? Especially since the Bushie evaded conversion....

During Rathergate
one of his COs stated that Bush tried to get transferred to a combat unit.

I really don't want to spend a whole lot of time defending Jorge; I'm not one of his fans either.

Probably for different resaons, though!
.

MyOpine
Just got back on the net. Had some thunder/lightning strikes.

Well the story of special characters involves 2 things.

1. It is nice to have a keyboard for the language in question, and the variety of that same language. For instance there are at least 3 keyboards for Spanish.
Standard and a variation of Spanish in Spain. Additionally, there is a Latin American Keyboard although it is rarely used in Mexico since they prefer the standard one used in Spain.

In any case you need the keyboard program for the keyboard you are using although quite often you can simply learn where the keys are different than yours and use the program that you want to emulate.

I believe for instance that you saw the word Gûero.. That is called a dieresis. Two dots over the letter U. Then there is an accent mark or tilde as it's called in Spanish like this, México. As you see it over the E indicating that the standard rules for pronunciation don't apply. They use the tilde to show where the corrected emphasis should be. In some cases, it is used to show a different meaning for words that are spelled the same, but have different meanings. As an example, we have como or cómo meaning first "how" as in how you did it; not a question. The second is "how" as in ¿HOW did you do that?

Accenting correctly is not very practiced in Mexico due to the deficient emphasis in education.

Then you have the letter ñ or Ñ and so forth like ¿¿¡¡ in addition to !! or ??.

Hope that answered some of your question without overload. Good question. MyOpine. Semper Fi..

Were it only possible
I have a solution for our divided country. Divide it in half, left and right, red and blue. Let each half govern as they wish.

The left can kill their children; they can control or even completely outlaw guns; they can allow as much pornography as their lives can bear; they can free all their prisoners to protect their civil rights; they can debase and chase Christianity and God from their lives; they can protect the environment to the detriment of their economy; they can provide everyone “free” medical care; they can also provide a "free" education to all their children as well as the children of those here illegally; they can adopt open borders; they can adopt the by-laws of the ACLU for their Constitution if they want; they can triple the minimum wage; and of course, when it comes to war, they will be free to turn the other cheek.

On my side of the border we can do the opposite. Which society do you believe will last the longest?

KYOTO DEAD
The American Thinker speculates that with the G-8 conference that Kyoto is effectively dead. Given that no one who agreed to the limits is actually meeting them, I would tend to agree.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2007/06/kyoto_exits_stage_left.html

onceamarine
Thank you.

Sorry to leave you alone
But I had to take my grandson to the doctor. But I'm Baaaack.

And I see the liberal babies are still pitching their temper tantums, and bawling name calling. Where are their pacifiers?

Is there a way to get Gore offsets for stupidness? Maybe have someone worth listening to set in for them?

OOps
If they had an offset for stupidness, then they would have to get a conservative. Silly me.

MyOpine again
Go to Control panel and select "regional configuration and language" it may be labeled somewhat differently on your version of windows.

You should see a tab for language and a tab for advanced options. I don't remember the exact procedure, but you can learn, read up or ask someone very knowledgeable for help close at hand if you want to vary your keyboard.

Most of the different keys are of simple use depressing CAPS to shift. Only a very few need the CTRL key. In fact it interferes only slightly with the use of a U.S. keyboard in the area of special characters.

You know there are multiple English keyboards. The English and many other varieties are different than U.S. standard. Suggest you consider obtaining a second keyboard (they are inexpensive) for Spanish. and just change out at the same time you toggle to a second keyboard program in Windows.(there is allowance for that)

I, personally, just stay with the Spanish keyboard as I have fairly frequent use for it, and have no problem at all using it for English other than an occasional special character I might need which I just ignore and do something else.

Oh puleeeze
This is not the least bit smart. Even animals are smart enough to be afraid. It puts us on our guard to protect ourselves. It is the most natural God given instinct. Don't be afraid for no reason, but check what has been said from different angles. When you determine there is a reason to be afraid, then..Be AFRAID, be VERY AFRAID.

onceamarine
I am using XP Pro and I do not have the feature you mention.

I will try it on some of my other systems.
My C:\ is a removable disk and I have 11 of them.
I collect operating systems like sane people collect stamps.
Each system uses diferent peripherals so I need two control pannels so I can select the right peripherals for each system.

AND:
Right now I am suffering from a bad case of Pneucomputeritus.
I am still deciding what I want and designing it in my head.
Thanks for the info. I will probably end up adding another keyboard. I already have two Xkey systems.

World's mostaccurate hurricane forcaster
g_gaisford- why don't you look him up, he has been the most accurate hurricane forcaster over the last 20 years, and he says your priests of the human cause global warming religion, are, in a word, delusional! His name is William M. Gray, Colorado State University.

Robert
"If you live it in fear then no matter how long it is lived, it is not a life well lived. If you live it with courage and honor then it is a life well lived and will be rememberd long after the body is dust."

You know that reminds me of what a wise man who did not know he was a wise man said one dreary morn. He said: "Hal there really is only one sin. I said huh? He said remember that life is a fleeting gift the only sin is to return that gift unopened" You know I really believe the man was right

Robert & Hal
There are only three kinds of men who never know fear.

#1. Is the person who has never been in a dangerous situation.
#2. Is the person who is frightened, lies and says he was not.
#3. Is the person who is too stupid to recognize the danger.
(It is a long Sea Story or I would give you an example of #3.)

Fear is not a bad thing if you can learn to master it.
Fear is only a bad thing when you let it master you!

MyOpine
"Fear is not a bad thing if you can learn to master it.
Fear is only a bad thing when you let it master you!"

Ahh exactly my point, the far right, conservatives, Republicans all seem to worship and embrace the "master you" part...

MyOpine
You are way ahead of me. Reminds me more of a friend in Houston. I worked for IBM years ago with Bob, up until 1977. Field engineer I was, and did program support work as well as hardware. Left for a management job I loved in Central America, and didn't learn a damm thing for the next twenty years or so. I didn't even miss it.

Shortening up the story a bit. I am an amateur on this compared to some of you who probably couldn't spell computer when I worked on them. Technology has definitely been busy since 1977.

Good luck. I not going to get that deep like you are, and probably stay with my XP system until I have to change. Great hobby, but so is my 7th grader at my 66 years of wear and tear. People sometimes ask me, what do you do.??. Taxi driver I confidently answer. Taxi driver, they question with a quisical look. Yep, my son here and my son there, here and there. But this damm president has got me mad, not scared. I don't care if Air Force One never comes back to the states.

Gung Ho..Jarheads..

Hal Donahue
When you dump ALL Republicans into one bag you throw yourself into a big bag containing MANY Democrats.

That bag has a label on the side of it.
It reads "Presumptious".

onceamarine
I am perhaps a little older than you think.
So it is my turn to give you something back for helping me.

While explaining something to a 41 year old grandson I still often see the same attentive expression on his face that was on a small boy I was teaching to tie a cleat hitch to secure a small boat or how to snug a rifle stock hard into his shoulder to reduce the impact of recoil.
My daughter is a 60 year old grandma but sometimes I can still look at her and see the little girl who used to tow me around by one finger.
When she wants me to go to the doctor I can see the same look on her face and hear the same tone of voice as a teenager who wants something special.
SO;
Any of you 41 year old kids who read this, remember all the while you are with the younger kids you are making the memories that will be with you for life.
Make many real good ones and when you get a little older you will understand the smile on your dad's face when he looked at you and saw a small child who used to tow him around by one finger.

Robert
Please do not attribute your words to me.
If you want to play with your own words you have that right.
It is sort of like verbal masturbation but that is typical of your posts.

Did you maybe have a 2nd glass of wine with your dinner tonight Roger?

You are somehow managing to slurr your keyboard.

MyOpine
You mean there is someone posting that I have to say Sir to. I was taught to be respectful of age. My dad spent his first few years in China, Don't know that it rubbed off on him to bad, but that's their rule. Age before beauty or something like that.

Yep, one of the first things my dad taught me, rifle stock tight in to the shoulder. Did help. You know the drill instructor had already told us that those who had learned to pot shot in the woods wouldn't do as well as the non shooters. Had to wipe the egg off his face when the two most experienced pot shotters shot one and two on the range, believe it was 231 of 250.

Good to know you buddy. Let's keep after this work we gotta do. Turning congress around, or at least saving the country for the next few generations.

onceamarine
I spent a few years in china too.
At a rather bad time for China.
Our ship was the American vessel trapped up river during the siege of Shanghi.

Right near where the British lost that heavy cruiser.

MyOpine
Hey, you aren't funnin me are you.??. What kind of vitamins are you taking. Are you talking about the one Steve McQueen did in the movie, what was it? Sand Pebbles? No, you were on another boat later than that, right? Huh, common you're talking WWII, right?
Dad was a kid in China with his dad at the consulate, just after the boxer rebellion, 1909-1912.
He did 6 in the Nicaraguan campaign, 1927-1933, 4 purples and some other brass stuff.

Hey now, fuss up.

onceamarine
We made a re-run in 1947 during the revolution.

Ships from several nations were trapped there for 7 months.
It was not a fun thing.

There was no excuse for the British loss of that ship.
They ran that ship out of fuel trying to avoid a few dinky little 75mm howitzers that could not do anything to that cruiser but blow paint off the armor!

WE broke that barracade with a DD.
That cruiser could have just ignored it and cruised right through.
Politics!

MyOpine
Sorry, i didn't know about that or have just plain forgotten it.

My dad was on the King George before we officially got into the war. They called him a gunnery observer or some thing like that, attached to the Royal Marines. They took the ship that couldn't be sunk out, but it was one hell of a battle. I was just a baby in mother's arms at the time. When he got back the first thing he did was to take that goldie locks baby to a barber.

LA
"sjt 18:

the very idea of snipers on the border shooting and killing unarmed people men, women, and children for crossing the border illegally is repugnant and morally reprehensible."

Would you say the same if police shot someone who was trying to steal your life's savings?

I don't want to see anyone shot. However the threat of greater costs than the potential benefit works. Making unenforced and unenforceable laws then expecting them to be respected just because... doesn't.

"So what happens if they start shooting back..I suppose you would really enjoy that because it would justify what you said in the first place.."

No. What I said in the first place is that fewer people would be killed if the threat caused fewer to try crossing.

I have yet to say or suggest that I wanted to see anyone shot.

"something else for you to think about...by land is only one way to cross the border illegally."

I haven't forgotten. Did you completely ignore my suggestion to imprison those who hire illegals?
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