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Monday, March 12, 2007
Michael Barone :: Townhall.com Columnist
A Tale of Two Crimes
by Michael Barone
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"History will be kind to me," Winston Churchill once said, "for I intend to write it."

Indeed, he did. His multiple-volume histories of the two world wars are still widely read, though discounted by professional historians as incomplete and in some ways misleading.

Churchill is not the only politician who has wanted to write the history of his times; most politicians and political operatives want at least to shape the way history views their actions.

Some are better at this than others. In the previous century, Democrats did much better at this than Republicans.

Most of us still see the events of the first two-thirds of the 20th century through the words of gifted New Deal historians like the late Arthur Schlesinger Jr., who told the story as Franklin Roosevelt hoped and expected it to be told. And, to judge from the response to two recent criminal proceedings, Democrats are doing it better in this century, too.

The first of these criminal proceedings, not much noticed, was the plea bargain of former national security adviser Sandy Berger for removing classified documents from the National Archives, where he had been reviewing them under the authorization of Bill Clinton in preparation for testimony about 9/11.

What he admitted to doing, after first denying it, is extraordinary. On multiple occasions he removed documents from the room where he was reading them, concealed them in his pants and socks, hid them at a construction site outside the building, took them home, and, in some cases, destroyed them.

Some of these documents may have been unique and may have contained handwritten comments that could have looked bad in light of what happened on September 11. I have known Berger more than 30 years and find it unlikely that he would have done something like this on his own.

Did Bill Clinton ask him to destroy documents that would make him look bad in history? I get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach when I ask that question. But this or something very much like it seems to be the only explanation that makes sense. The Berger case was prosecuted by career staff in the Department of Justice, with little publicity. In 2005 Berger was fined $50,000 -- not a ruinous sum for one of his earning capacity -- ordered to perform 100 hours of community service, and had his security clearance lifted for three years, which means he could come back in a new administration after the 2008 election. The attempt to write, or un-write, history -- if it was that -- evidently succeeded.

Berger's treatment was light compared with that of Dick Cheney's former chief of staff, Scooter Libby. Special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald prosecuted him for perjury and obstruction of justice for making statements contradicted by journalists Tim Russert and Matt Cooper, and last week, the 11-member jury found him guilty on four counts. He could face years in jail. The case arose out of attempts by Libby and others to refute the charges of retired diplomat Joseph Wilson that the administration had manipulated intelligence before the Iraq war.

Wilson is the Titus Oates of our time, a liar whose lies served the needs of a political faction. Oates's lie was that there was a "popish plot" to murder King Charles II; Wilson's lie was part of the "Bush lied and people died" mantra that has become the canonical version of history to much of the mainstream media and the Democratic Party.

Wilson's story, retailed to journalists and then presented in a column in The New York Times, was that he had debunked evidence that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger and that his report had circulated in the highest levels of the administration; he suggested that he had been sent to Niger in response to a request by Cheney.

In fact, as a 2004 bipartisan report of the Senate Intelligence Committee found, all those claims were false, as well as his denial that his wife had recommended him for the Niger trip.

Still, the "Bush lied and people died" mantra resonates. Yet there was no lie. Given Saddam Hussein's previous use of weapons of mass destruction and his refusal to cooperate with weapons inspectors, George W. Bush had to assume he had WMDs, just as Bill Clinton had before him -- as we were reminded by Hillary Rodham Clinton's speech in favor of the Iraq war resolution.

The Libby verdict in no way undercuts that. But the Republicans are running behind in the battle to write history.

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About The Author
Michael Barone is a Fox News Channel contributor and co-author of The Almanac of American Politics. He is Senior Political Analyst for the Washington Examiner and a Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a Fox News Channel contributor and co-author of The Almanac of American Politics.
 
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to tanabear
I'm a liberal myself, I think Libby did the crime, but I can't help wondering...considering the politicization of this case on both sides, would Libby have gotten off as easily as Berger if he had pleaded guilty? I honestly have my doubts.

Just what we need
another round of Joe Wilson, ambassador extraordinaire. Joe Wilson has been adjudicated as a pathological liar by every panel in Washington that has looked at the Niger trip and the infamous NYT slime piece. Even the Democrat operative who was most credited with convicting Libby, Tim Russert, has admitted that he is a liar.

Tanabear
Tanabear...Tanabear...Tanabear.

Wilson was not sent to investigate your "forged documents", but reliable reports that Iraq had made an effort to purchase yellowcake in Niger. Even though he is only a mid-level diplomat, and not an investigator or intelligence agent, he did manage to uncover evidence that Iraqis had indeed been in Niger looking to "expand trade relations." Niger's number-one export is yellowcake; number two is "hides and skins." You guess: what were the Iraqis there to buy?

Wilson reported all this to the CIA, but then denied in a later NYT op-ed that he hadn't found a darn thing in Niger.

He also said Cheney sent him, but that was proven false.

Did Libby lie? Possibly. Since Tim Russert is also a proven liar, it's hard to be sure. But did his crime exceed Sandy Bergers? Not in my book. If Libby did lie, it was about something that wasn't a crime in the first place. Berger destroyed information related to our defense against our nation's enemies.

You and I weren't materially harmed by Libby's lies (if indeed they were lies), but our mutual security was reduced by Berger's actions.

tanabear
So in conclusion it is easy to see that tanabear can ape the talking dulls of the Leftinistra(proven false time and time and time again) and is nothing more than a Leftinistra (socialist liberal) Defeatist Pacifistic Coward propagandist.

There. That concludes the rant.

Tana,Kimbat,Phylo
SSDD. The neocon propaganda line, Bsuhlied... and phylo's ever cut and paste of the SIC report. ach! They won't ever get it....because whatever a liberal does is oooo-kay. We get it, though, don't we?

Jail
Clinton should have been removed from office for perjury and spent time in jail.

Berger should not have been offered a deal and should have spent alot of time in jail for stealing, obstruction of justice, and possibly crimes relating to a cover up.

Neither of those things happened....

And while I agree that Wilson and Plame weren't innocents and should be facing legal problems of their own.... Libby perjured himself. I'm not ready to let the liberal standard for Clinton and Berger become the rule.

Libby should not be pardoned. If there are others guilty in the administration that have committed perjury or other crimes related to this then they too should be punished up to and including Bush... and as many of you know, I've defended many of his actions.

Our whole system of justice rests upon the notion that people have to tell the truth under oath and can't impede the pursuit of the truth. That is larger than a party. Larger than a person. Larger than any temporary set back to a political ideology or movement. The higher the official and maybe even the more insignificant the lie... the more important it is that we enforce the oath. If someone will lie about "small" things... then they'll do a much better job of hiding their lies on big things. Lying is a habit. A good liar (ie Clinton(s)) can only be caught in unguarded moments.

The foundation crumbled with Clinton, a little more with Berger,... if we don't reassert principle now that it is a guy from the other side, there is no way we can rebuild the foundation.

tanabear writes .....
..... absolute codswallop.

It's almost not too bad that every sufferer from the "liberal" psychosis pathologically prevaricates. But that every one of that insidious threat's useful idiots, present company included, actually believes the projected propagandist product of that psychopathology's parasitical polemicist pretenders to the journalistic trade he projectile pukes -- and has the vote -- is truly scary stuff.

The BIG LIE about the Iraq Phase of the War Against Hesperophobic Islam is the, typically-Goebbelsesque, "liberal" lie that United States of America's President and Armed-Forces Commander-In-Chief, George Walker Bush, ever lied in that regard about anything at all.

tana unbearable
Have you no shame? Have you no decency? Why? Why? Why must you shill for the worst of America? The shame! The horror!

Libby's plea deal
I have it from a good source (who shall remained unnamed but whose initials are not Dick Cheney) that Libby was, in fact, offered a plea deal. It included immediate confession and allocution followed by a public hanging.

From the same source, Berger actually REJECTED the first plea offer presented to him from the Justice Dept. It included a $5.00 fine, a 90 day suspension of his valet parking privledges at The National Archive, and lunch with Maureen Dowd. Berger, stand up guy that he is, felt that the public wouldn't fall for such a light sentence and "upped the ante" himself. Still, spending any amount listening to MODO ramble in her acid-flashback valley girl manner could certainly be considered cruel and unusual punishment.

Jabelson has a point.
I am sure the documents created within the White House during the Clinton Administration while George Bush was Governor of Texas and not had some pretty damning evidence against Bush's jeopardizing the Clinton Administration's anti-terror efforts. Could Bush have been running Al Qaeda training camps out of Mid-Land? Maybe he was executing suspected terrorists before they could talk. Yes, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE, Anything Is Possible, anything is possible, anything ... DamnBushitlerburton.

What were the documents?
The problem with the Berger case is that we don't know exactly what the documents contained, therefore, could not really prosecute much. It is obvious to assume that the documents were damaging, but there is no proof.

As for Libby, this is simple. Richard Armitage admitted that he was the leaker two weeks into this "investigation". Period. The rest of this is BS.

Barone and Washington Idiots
The inside the beltway mentality, Barone writes:"I have known Berger more than 30 years and find it unlikely that he would have done something like this on his own. "
Berger is a thief and Barone and all the other yoyo's in Washington are all the same. There all good guys Barone, just liars, thieves and aduterers. Other than that all good guys.




tanabear
Berger was tried by CAREER justice weenies and was not punished NEARLY enough as he deserved. But that's not surprising since liberal scum infest Justice, State, CIA, and the FBI like roaches in a tenement row.

Scott Ritter, the child porn king? You believe HIM and Hans Blix?

HAHA! That's a HOT ONE!

Yeah, Saddam would NEVER THINK of hiding his WMD's in a million square miles of sand. Nope, never. As Lydia posted so eloquently, even your hero The Impeached One was not sure. And believe me, on page 19 or 20 of my AWESOME BLOG, I have evem MORE libscum like Maddy Halfbright ACKNOWLEDGING that Saddam STILL HAD WMD's AFTER Blix and Ritter inspected.

oops.

BTW ALL, check my blog for a HOT ARTICLE on an ILLEGAL ALIEN trial that will either HELP US or SCREW US!

Jabelson, SJR
In 1993, in a move unprecendented in American history, newly elected President Bill Clinton fired EVERY SINGLE ONE of the 90-odd attorneys in the US Attorney's office. Rumor was that his target was one particular attorney who was close to getting the goods on his Arkansas cronies, but that was never pegged down. For whatever reason, the appearance of non-partisanship in the Justice Department, formerly protected by tradition from partisan appointments, was shattered.

When Clinton left office in 2001, one would have hoped that new President Bush, recognizing the damage done the reputation of the Justice Dept by the highly corrupt, partisan Clinton gang, might have added staff to the members of the US Attorney's office in an attempt to re-balance the partisan leaning of the office; sadly, he did not. Consequently, though the President (as always) appointed his own Attorney General, the AG was saddled with a Clinton-appointed, partisan and probably corrupt US Attorney's office, that may even include some active Clinton operatives working as a silent 5th column inside the government.

This explains perfectly why the US Attorney's office was insanely easy on Sandy Berger, who should be serving hard jail time. And it explains, all too clearly, why AG Gonzales recently had to fire 7 US Attorneys for what Democrats are calling "partisan reasons," acting as though it were the BUSH White House's partisanship that were a problem. How short their memories, how deep their hypocricy!

Occam's Razor gives you your answer; there's no conspiracy between the Bush and Clinton White Houses, but rather the Bush administration is full of Clinton hold-overs who still carry his water and clean up his messes.

Jabelson
Your point is ridiculous. First, as someone else has pointed out, The documents in question came from a time period during which Bush was Governor of Texas - you know, you remember all that car-alarm Leftist whining about how Bush had "no foreign policy experience" - ? So the notion that his tracks were being covered is just ridiculous on the face of it.

Second, you are ignoring the plain fact that each presidential admionistration only replaces the folks at the TOP of the bureaucracy - and not even all of those! The rest of the folks in the bureaucracy are entrenched, hard-time careerists, whose aims and interests might run directly against those of the administration. This includes folks like Richard Armitage, the State Department hack and ACTUAL Plame "leaker," who directly opposed Bush's foreign policy, and the careerist Justice Department proseuctors who slapped Berger's wrists.

So your whole point is the usual moronic nonsense we've come to expect from you. Thanks for not letting us down.

smitty...
I think that you're missing Barone's point. Sandy Berger has always been a follower and never one who's taken the initiative on anything, which explains why he could rise so high in government and yet require adult supervision to go out and about in the real world.

This leads to Barone's hint that Berger was doing what he did on orders (or a request) of his pal and former boss, Slick Willy.


How easy is it to hide

Once upon a time I argued with my co-workers about whether or not Saddam had WMD's. They said that the US had not found any.

I said how many people could a 55 gallon drum of Sarin kill? Bunches.
Give me a week to hide that drum somewhere in New Mexico, and you can have all the resources you can muster to find it. If you don't find it, does it be there wasn't one? Nope, just that you didn't find it or I lied and buried it in Texas or Arizona.

As desolate as parts of Iraq are, not finding something is not proof it is not there or never was. Nothing more, nothing less.

Where's the conspiracy?
No one has been implicated with Berger as far as I know, of course that doesn't stop Barrone's "conjecture". Whereas with Libby, we got all kinds of wonderful people involved, as evidenced by the testimony at his felony conviction trial, that reaches all the way to the White House. Of course, all of this is Clintons fault!

RE: How easy is it to hide
"...not finding something is not proof it is not there or never was. Nothing more, nothing less." Well I guess there is hope for Big Foot and my fairy godmother, I just gotta look harder!

Lies?
Joseph Wilson said that he was sent to Niger by the CIA in response to a request by the office of the Vice President, which is not the same thing as being sent by Cheney. The CIA was responding to the request by the Vice President, not Joseph Wilson. This is one of those urban myths that keep getting repeated in the hopes that people will believe it.

Also, trying to find blame and deciphering all the nuances in the Wilson/Plame/Libby affair is a tempest in a teacup when compared to what the Bush administration did with the faulty intelligence and forged documents.

too late
the Repubs had no nads to go after Bergler 3 or 4 years ago when they should have. Too late now. Sometimes I think the Repubs are the catchers and the DemGimps are the pitchers.

Of course they lied!
Do you want to know why the "Bush lied, people died" mantra resonates Barone?

It's very simple: The evidence that the White House lied us into this war is overwhelming!

And it's not just lefties saying this. I'm sure none of you have seen the following interview from 60 minutes because you spend your lives in the sheltered confines of Republican party talking points. So take a look at this and explain what this tells you. Here's part of the transcript:


60 Minutes: CIA Official Reveals Bush, Cheney, Rice Were Personally Told Iraq Had No WMD in Fall 2002
Tonight on 60 Minutes, Tyler Drumheller, the former chief of the CIA’s Europe division, revealed that in the fall of 2002, President Bush, Vice President Cheney, then-National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and others were told by CIA Director George Tenet that Iraq’s foreign minister — who agreed to act as a spy for the United States — had reported that Iraq had no active weapons of mass destruction program. Watch it:
BRADLEY: According to Drumheller, CIA Director George Tenet delivered the news about the Iraqi foreign minister at a high level meeting at the White House.
DRUMHELLER: The President, the Vice President, Dr. Rice…
BRADLEY: And at that meeting…?
DRUMHELLER: They were enthusiastic because they said they were excited that we had a high-level penetration of Iraqis.
BRADLEY: And what did this high level source tell you?
DRUMHELLER: He told us that they had no active weapons of mass destruction program.
BRADLEY: So, in the fall of 2002, before going to war, we had it on good authority from a source within Saddam’s inner circle that he didn’t have an active program for weapons of mass destruction?
DRUMHELLER: Yes.
BRADLEY: There’s no doubt in your mind about that?
DRUMHELLER: No doubt in my mind at all.
BRADLEY: It directly contradicts, though, what the President and his staff were telling us.
DRUMHELLER: The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming, and they were looking for intelligence to fit into the policy, to justify the policy.

Hmmmm, seems to match up pretty well with what we learned from the Downing St Memo, doesn't it?

I'm sure some of you will try to spin this away. But it's not like this is the only bit of evidence.

There's also General Zinni (a Bush supporter in 2000), who almost fell off his chair when he heard Cheney say there was "no doubt" that Saddam has WMD. You see, Zinni, though retired, had retained his top-secret clearance and was consulting with the CIA on Iraq. He was up to date on the intel and never, not once, did it say "He has WMD." (This is all on page 50 of the Fiasco.)

The White House was also repeatedly warned not to use the mobile weapons lab info because the source was a known drunk and a fabricator (curveball). Drumheller said he was shocked when he heard Collin Powell bring that up in his UN speech because they had told them to take it out.

Then there's the aluminum tubes. Almost all of our experts were saying that it was highly doubtful that the aluminum tubes could be used for centrifuging uranium. One lone guy was arguing the case that the could ONLY be used for centrifuging uranium. When this guy testified at the UN he was openly laughed at because his arguments and evidence were so flawed.

The White House also lied about ties between Iraq and al Queda. There was never any solid evidence for this. Yet they were saying that it was pretty well confirmed that there was an active ongoing relationship.

And then there's the actions of the White House themselves. Don't you people think that they've heard the accusations that they've lied? So why don't they come out and show us all of there evidence for why they said the things they said? How hard would that be?

Answer: Really hard if you don't have the evidence. Indeed, impossible. Has it ever occurred to you people that they haven't responded to these charges because they can't? Do you honestly believe that they are simply too polite to bring up the subject? Dick Cheney? Come on. Give me a break!

When you people talk about how everyone thought he had WMD, you're skimming over the surface. And it's easy to do because it's such a broad claim. But when you start looking at the specifics of what the White House said and when they said it, it becomes obvious to anyone with any sense at all, that, yes, they lied, and they lied repeatedly in order to make the threat seem more menacing that it really was.

Wake up people! You've all been fooled!

Phylo out.

question
Those of you who have been unloading on tanabear - do you honestly think that he/she has read a word of it? I would almost bet that he/she wrote his/her nonsense, pronounced "my work here is done" with a wicked smile, posted, and then left, knowing what the reaction would be.

WMD et al
Did they ever exist?

yes

So - what happened to them?

My opinion

Some were sold
Some were shipped out of the country to be stored
Some have been found but the discoveries are so horrendous that they are being kept from the public AS THEY SHOULD BE
Some have not YET been found

They did NOT just cease to exist.

Remember - Between the forced departure of the last U.N. weapons inspectors and the invasion by allied forces in March 2003 there was a gap of 4 years plus. Saddam knew that no matter how Clinton huffed and puffed he wouldn't do anything. Saddam also knew that President Bush meant what he said, and so Saddam had at least a year to do something about the WMD.

As for Sandy Berger and what he did at the behest of Billy the boss: Berger has admitted (after first denying) that:

"On multiple occasions he removed (classified) documents from the room where he was reading them, concealed them in his pants and socks(Insert sarcastic remark here), hid them at a construction site outside the building, took them home, and in some cases destroyed them."

"Did Bill Clinton ask him to destroy documents that would make him look bad in history?" Given the facts of the case how can anyone reasonable believe anything else?

And now this guy's wife wants to be president.

Excuse me?

60 Minutes?
OMG - now THERE'S a reputable source.

LMAO

Phylo
Phylo has reached the point where he is totally convinced of his assertions and recognizes only those things which support them and disbelieves any evidence to the contrary.

And, no, Phylo... I'm NOT going to get into specific details of your above as I have done so many times in the past... your mind is made up and arguing with you is fruitless & futile -- as I and many others have learned many times.

sjt18 writes
"Our whole system of justice rests upon the notion that people have to tell the truth under oath and can't impede the pursuit of the truth."

Not to go off on a tangent (but I will). Family courts in a America allow lying under oath every single day. Quite often, maybe even most often, it is painfully obvious lies, yet no one is held accountable.

Some may say this is small potatoes, but when we let courts decide the fates of families, and these courts allow the fate of families to be determined by lies, then the whole of society degrades, as we've witnessed over the last 4 decades.

If "our whole system of justice rests upon the notion that people have to tell the truth under oath", that notion was destroyed long before Scooter Libby, or even before our liar and Chief Bill Clinton.

RE: tanabear
"Excatly what lie was this and what political faction was he serving?"

According to the bi-partisan Senate report, here is a partial list of lies:

1) Wilson claimed that Cheney had sent him to Niger. This was untrue, as has been recently proven beyond any and all doubt when dated memos showed that Cheney's office wasn't even notified of any trip until after Wilson had been authorized to go.

2) Wilson claimed that he gave a report that proved the uranium claim was false. This is also untrue, as the CIA claims that his sloppy verbal report of the trip actually STRENGTHENED the claims about the uranium.

3) Wilson claimed that his report was distributed at the highest levels. This is untrue. His verbal report was given to a mid-level staffer who saw no reason to distribute it to anyone because it added nothing of great importance.

4) Wilson claimed he first knew that the uranium clams were false based upon some poorly forged documents. This is untrue, as Wilson not only admitted he never saw the documents, those documents weren't even reviewed by ANYONE until after he returned from Niger and gave his reports.

Oh, and by the way, kiddo, to this very day, Brittish AND US intelligence CONTINUES to believe that Saddam tried to get uranium from Africa. Those forged documents were only one tiny piece of evidence in an enourmous pile of evidence to show that this is the case.

RE: tanabear
"Excatly what lie was this and what political faction was he serving?"

According to the bi-partisan Senate report, here is a partial list of lies:

1) Wilson claimed that Cheney had sent him to Niger. This was untrue, as has been recently proven beyond any and all doubt when dated memos showed that Cheney's office wasn't even notified of any trip until after Wilson had been authorized to go.

2) Wilson claimed that he gave a report that proved the uranium claim was false. This is also untrue, as the CIA claims that his sloppy verbal report of the trip actually STRENGTHENED the claims about the uranium.

3) Wilson claimed that his report was distributed at the highest levels. This is untrue. His verbal report was given to a mid-level staffer who saw no reason to distribute it to anyone because it added nothing of great importance.

4) Wilson claimed he first knew that the uranium clams were false based upon some poorly forged documents. This is untrue, as Wilson not only admitted he never saw the documents, those documents weren't even reviewed by ANYONE until after he returned from Niger and gave his reports.

Oh, and by the way, kiddo, to this very day, Brittish AND US intelligence CONTINUES to believe that Saddam tried to get uranium from Africa. Those forged documents were only one tiny piece of evidence in an enourmous pile of evidence to show that this is the case.

Phylo, you're a joke
Do yourself and the rest of us a favor, will you, Phylo? Go google "AUMF" or "Authorization To Use Military Force", and reread the "whereas" clauses on that document.

Then, take your little list of imagined "evidence" that there were no active WMD programs in Iraq, and run down the list of "whereas" clauses from the AUMF that you just produced by doing your homework.

Assuming -- and we're just assuming for the sake of argument, not agreeing -- that everything you say is true, does it affect even ONE FOURTH of the reasons we went to war?

No. It doesn't. It hardly touches the case at all.

And of course, what you're saying is poppycock of the 1st order; the Left cherry-picks intel and screams "Why didn't you believe THIS item rather than the 400 items you actually believed," with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight and "creative" interpretation (e.g. outright lying). But it hardly matters, because the Left's case for "faked war" is not sufficient even on the face of it to rebut the Administration's case for war in Iraq.

And let's not forget, it's not THIS administration's case. It's the case produced by THREE SUCCESSIVE administrations, and supported by both Houses of Congress for a period of more than 12 years.

So, please, Phylo, take your fantasy case and air it where they haven't got people who actually know the facts of the case, and you have a chance of being believed by somebody naive enough to think you know what you're talking about. Ok?

Jimmy Hoffa's never been found
I guess he didn't exist, either.

response to Primus
Primus54: "Phylo has reached the point where he is totally convinced of his assertions and recognizes only those things which support them and disbelieves any evidence to the contrary."

Phylo: You're right. I've made up my mind based on the evidence I've seen. Give me evidence that Bush had every right to believe any of the following and I'll happily change my mind.

That the aluminum tubes were only capable of being used for centrifuging uranium.

That the mobile weapons labs were real.

That there were operational ties between Iraq and al queda.

That Saddam had reconstituted his nuclear weapons program.


Primus54: And, no, Phylo... I'm NOT going to get into specific details of your above as I have done so many times in the past... your mind is made up and arguing with you is fruitless & futile -- as I and many others have learned many times.

Phylo: I see, you're not willing to argue specifics and I'm the one who has made up his mind. Well, I guess that's onw way to trick yourself into believing that you've won an argument. I'll argue any point on this subject with anyone at anytime.

Give me your best shot Primus, or admit that you're simply wrong.

You could start by explaining Drumheller's comments in the interview I posted. Are you assuming that he was lying?

Phylo out.


A lie told often enough-----
First let us all understand that when an administration changes the rank and file Civil Servants up to and even upper mid-level department staff do not leave. Civil Service protected staff certainly do not suddenly become loyal to the "new boss" or any more loyal to "we the people" than they may or may not have been before the change. The large majority of agency staff in the Washington bureaucracy especially are Democratic and left of center. And appreciate almost all Agency staffs and managers believe they are grossly underpaid and overworked. So when staff attorneys at DOJ decided to allow Sandy Berger to plead it certainly should have been no surprise. That the Judge approving the plea allowed it shouldn't necessarily be surprising since again a majority of sitting federal judges tend to owe those that brought them and most are liberal.

Second the "Bush lied people died" mantra is far, far from surprising and not because Bush lied; all the known facts prior to the Iraq War, now reviewed several times over, supported the conclusions of the Administration, most foreign intelligence services, the UN Security Council and even many within Saddam's own regime.

That this lie is continually reported, repeated, and screamed from the left is certainly not surprising. Their leaders or the mentors of their leaders, taught them well. "A lie told often enough and loud enough soon becomes the truth [Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, etc.] When the majority of the mainstream media, who left real journalism long ago and far behind, are quite willing to repeat the lie gives the lie legs to run on certainly at this point in history cannot be a surprise.

That we continue to allow such lies to be created, continued unchallenged, and become part of recent history is surprising.

Yet so long as a majority of the news media exercise the rights given to them by the First Amendment and none of the responsibility, we will all suffer. Worse it places our country at great risk.

THE TRUTH ALWAYS FINDS A WAY
to show itself. Whether its Burglar getting away with these crimes, or whether its the way Wilson was never vetted properly or just how long the media could supress the truth about Niger and British Intelligence's summary of the situation. It just shows we are in a time propagandanews where you always have to understand the angle of who's writing the articles. The real shame is Libby will likely go to jail for his loyalty for an obtuse and totally unnecessary lie, while Burglar gets away essentially free and clear for obstruction of justice and tampering with federal documents related to national security. Its nice to see the fat finally float through all the past media obfuscation.

Ahhh Kimbat....
Where do I start....

Berger didn't take out his own handwritten copies. He, in fact and finally admitted to in his plea bargain, did indeed steal archived classified documents. The big problem is that since some of the documents were originals with handwritten notes in the margins and no copies (I can see where you would get confused about the handwritten thing at this point), and the archives still doesn't have a clear idea of what exactly was taken, no one really knows the extent of the damage done. All that is clear is that Sandy baby did steal and destroy classified archived documents.

On to your second point about Libby. This is a classic example of "He said, She said" with Libby being "He" and Russert and Cooper being "She." Funny how jurors when interviewed after the verdict pretty much voiced the same thing (paraphrased); "We didn't really think he was guilty of perjury or obstruction but we had to find someone guilty." Subsequently, several of the jurors have now stated publicly that the right thing to do is pardon him.

But it doesn't end there. Patrick Fitzgerald learned (almost immediately) that the leak of Valerie Plame (When it wasn't her husband introducing her at state dinners and writing about her in his online bio) was Richard Armitage, a decidedly anti-Bush senior staffer at state, who told Novak about her and the trip that she secured for her loser husband to Niger. The fact the he didn't end his investigation at that point and charge Armitage or determine that Plame was indeed not covert, and drop the whole thing speaks to gross prosecutorial misconduct. This I do know since my sister is a long time prosecuting attorney.

On top of that, since Fitzy boy was hired to find the leak, which he did, why wasn't Armitage charged with violating the Protection of Secret Identities Act? Could it be that he really knew that Plame wasn't covert and did not have protected status, or could it be that he was just after 15 minutes of fame and was willing to misrepresent things to try to nab someone, anyone in the Bush Administration?

A liberal knowingly misrepresenting the truth, now there's something you don't see every day.

inkling revival you're an idiot
tinkling revival: ... take your little list of imagined "evidence" that there were no active WMD programs in Iraq...

Phylo: I'm imaging the Drumheller interview? I'm imagining the fact that General Zinni said that the intel never said he has WMD? I'm imagining the fact that all but one of our nuclear experts said that the aluminum tubes weren't for centrifuging uranium (and the one "expert" was laughed at at the UN)? I'm imagining the fact that Saddam had nothing close to a nuclear program even though the White House said he had reconstituted it? I'm imagining the fact that the 9/11 commission said there were no operational ties between Iraq and al Queda?


tinkling revival: "Assuming -- and we're just assuming for the sake of argument, not agreeing -- that everything you say is true, does it affect even ONE FOURTH of the reasons we went to war? No. It doesn't. It hardly touches the case at all."

Phylo: "So the h•ll what! It doesn't change the fact that they lied you idiot.

tinkling revival: And of course, what you're saying is poppycock of the 1st order; the Left cherry-picks intel and screams "Why didn't you believe THIS item rather than the 400 items you actually believed,"

Phylo: What 400 items are you talking about? Are you telling me there is solid evidence of ties between Iraq and al Queda? Are you telling me that there is solid evidence that the aluminum tubes were for centrifiging uranium? Are you telling me that there was solid evidence of the mobile weapons labs? Let's see the evidence!


tinkling revival: And let's not forget, it's not THIS administration's case. It's the case produced by THREE SUCCESSIVE administrations, and supported by both Houses of Congress for a period of more than 12 years.

Phylo: The Bush administration are the ones who first claimed that he had reconstituted his nuclear program. The only people, other than the adminstration who said this because they believed the administration.

And in 1998 there were perhaps some weapons programs until Clinton took them out in Desert Fox. After that there was no evidence of WMD programs. It was all just baseless assumptions.

tinkling revival: So, please, Phylo, take your fantasy case and air it where they haven't got people who actually know the facts of the case, and you have a chance of being believed by somebody naive enough to think you know what you're talking about. Ok?

Phylo: Give me some solid evidence that proves that Bush wasn't lying and I'll believe you. I have seen nothing of the kind. On the contrary, I've seen tons of evidence that they did lie.

And, sorry, but until you people wake up and see reality, I'll continue posting here. Your particular kind of willfull ignorance and blind loyalty to party is precisely what people like Hitler and Stalin depended on to rise to power.

And I'm here to make sure that doesn't happen here.

A little advice: If you want to convince me, or anyone else, try offering a solid refutation of my arguments instead of just telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Phylo out.

Left arguments
It is hard not to be tempted to offer point by point rebuttals but so often the arguments here fall into two categories:

1.)Obviously false assertions ("the sun is cold")
2.)Incoherent ("the tree is cat")

Combine both and you have a nice blend of feculent blather.

Makoshark
Makoshark: "all the known facts prior to the Iraq War, now reviewed several times over, supported the conclusions of the Administration, most foreign intelligence services, the UN Security Council and even many within Saddam's own regime."

Phylo: Oh really? Then how do explain the items in my 10:16 post?

Phylo out.

give it a shot SJR
Go ahead and respond to my 10:16 post. Let's see how well you do.

Phylo out.

Phylo...
Let's deal with this nonsense point by point:

"That the aluminum tubes were only capable of being used for centrifuging uranium."

That was not what was stated by Colin Powell and others. What was stated was that the aluminum tubes that were confiscated were of the proper grade (aluminum type and quality) and size to be used for the gas centrifuge process required to enrich uranium.

"That the mobile weapons labs were real."

Two mobile weapons labs were indeed captured. It was written off that they were used to generate hydrogen for weather balloons, and yet, both facilities were disinfected with heavy doses of highly concentrated chlorine bleach. Correct me if I'm wrong, it has been a number of years since I've produced hydrogen, but the only things necessary, as I recall, for hydrogen production are two anodes, a rheostat, a electric source strong enough to overcome the molecular bond of hydrogen and oxygen, and a source of hydrogen and oxygen.....WATER. Disinfection certainly isn't something that is necessary when producing hydrogen.

"That there were operational ties between Iraq and al queda."

This is a statment that actually has some truth to it. It is known that at least 4 of the 9/11 hijackers got their training for taking over aircraft at Salman Pak. And there is one other incident, if you're interested, that at least demonstrates a connection between Al Qaeda and elements of Saddam's secret services through 3rd parties.

"That Saddam had reconstituted his nuclear weapons program."

Saddam hadn't reconstituted his nuclear weapons program but he was trying to do so. Saddam indeed tried to procure enriched Uranium from Niger. Niger has one product for export; uranium. So Saddam sending an agent to Niger to expand trade with Niger can mean only one thing. This ties in with the aluminum tubes that were confiscated.

You're really going to have to try harder. Once again, you toss out statements claim them as lies and don't have facts to back up your assertions.

WMD's
To further add onto what Uncle Max was stating, I agree, the WMD did exist, and no, Bush did not lie about them. Saddam had used them repeatedly and in such a horrific amount to kill hundreds of thousands of people. You must know this.

I recall when the US was planning on investigating WMD's in Iraq, with Powell and Bush giving speeches to the UN for their support because Saddam had broken 14 violations. As I recall, it was roadbloack after roadblock for our inspectors to be allowed to go and do their job. They receive no cooperation initially. Also, Iraq's scientists were also watched by Saddam's military during inspections and were never left alone. Remember?

Let me also say it took about 3 months for our inspectors to get any cooperation looking into Iraq for WMD's. A lot can happen in that amount of time.

For you liberals, I'll describe it to something you can relate to:

You smoke dope, lots of it. You live in your parent's basement, and your mother suspects you of having pot hidden in your room. Of course, you do have dope, you use it all the time, but now your mom wants to go down there and find it.

You stall her. You come up with every distraction in the book to avoid her from going down and checking. Eventually, with a short time allowed, you were able to transport your dope to your neighbor's house who will gladly hide it for you. You still have bongs, pipes, and such...but no dope.

Libs....to even think that Saddam, once Desert Storm was over, that he did not have any WMD and use it on his people is completely naive.

He had all the time in the world to dispose of every ounce of proof ---except for all those pesky dead bodies wrapped in plastic bags our boys kept on discovering which were causal factors of those so-called non existant WMD's.

Bush did not lie. We gave Saddam too much time to stall and switch.

Phylo writes at 11:34 AM
"Give me your best shot Primus, or admit that you're simply wrong."

Don't have to Phylo... many who have followed have proven both of my points, especially "tunneler".

Typical liberalism... "Don't confuse me with the facts -- my mind is made up!"

Nothing complicated here... BDS... pure & simple.

Phylo
Why don't you apply for a position as an editor at Reader's Digest?

Just wondering?

How did the CIA know anything
A little cut and post, showing the internal bickering within the CIA: Subject: Curveball

"Criticism, investigation, and damage control
In 2003, inspectors led by David Kay conducted additional investigation of Curveball's credibility. They found among other things that he placed last in his university class when he had claimed to place first, and that he had been jailed for embezzlement before fleeing to Germany. The former point is relevant because Curveball claimed to have been hired out of university to head Iraq's bioweapons program. That he had placed last in his class would cast considerable doubt on this claim.

In response to public criticism, U.S. president Bush initiated an investigative commission, on March 31, 2005. The Bush administration laid blame on the CIA, criticizing its officials for "failing to investigate" doubts about Curveball, which emerged after an October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate. In May 2004, over a year after the invasion of Iraq, the CIA concluded formally that Curveball's information was fabricated.

On April 8, 2005, CIA Director Porter Goss ordered an internal review of the CIA in order to determine why doubts about Curveball's reliability were not forwarded to policy makers. Former CIA Director George Tenet and his former deputy, John McLaughlin, announced that they were not aware of doubts about Curveball's veracity before the war. However, Tyler Drumheller, the former chief of the CIA's European division, told the Los Angeles Times that "everyone in the chain of command knew exactly what was happening" with Curveball

Philo
Most of your points are strawman arguments designed to confuse the issue.

1)Bush's post 9/11 Policy was openly agressive He stated empahtically that we would no longer react to events. The destruction of the WTC and Pentagon were brought about by nation states that subsidize and host terror. Afghanistan was not the end game -he empahtically targeted Iraq, Iran and Korea. There is no doubt the Iraq supported terror operations. The fact of Iraq's existence in light of the 1991 Cease Fire agreement underscored a huge weakness in how the UN, the EU, and the US dealt with terror. 9/11 came about because of this weakness. The Bush Doctrine was an about face from this. The Oil for Food Scandal only highlighted the lack of will the UN showed in dealing with terror states. Bush made it abundantly clear that Saddam could not exist any longer. Bush would not wait until Saddam became a regional or global threat.

2)You can nit-pick a intel that has nothing to do with the broader strategy Bush outlined in late 2001. No one in 2001 or in early 2002 critiqued this strategy; to do so would have been political suicide. No one in Congress (at least the Moonbat Left) questioned the assertion that Saddam had to go. The broader question of whether Saddam had the ability of reconstructing his WMD program was setteled. In light of the $25 billion UN Oil For Food program, it was quite clear that he had plenty of friends in the UN and EU, not to mention a potential ally in Iran. The fact that OBL's son is currently under the protection of the Revolutionary Guard of Iran, and is currently working with Hezbollah in Lebanon and Syria belies the fantasy that "religious" terror groups are incapable of forming alliances (Few people remember that Stalin and Hitler formed an alliance despite thier hatred for eachother).

Lost in all of the misinformation is the fact that from 1991-2001 the US allowed a diverse terror network to operate worldwide and in the US. We allowed Iran to form alliances with Russia and China; we allowed OBL to operate with impunity; we treated terror as a law enforcement problem, and despite several warnings by OBL, we failed utterly to take him seriously. The CIA, DOD, and State Dept are filled with bench warmers who feel more at home negociating with terror nations than fighting them.

Yes, Bush has bungeled quite a bit. After the fall of Afghanistan he quietly recanted his own doctrine. He allowed CENTCOM to write the operational orders for the Iraqi invasion despite the fact that Spec Ops Command wrote and executed the Afghan operation - Operation Iraqi Freedom became a set piece battle instead of an asymetrical operation like Afghanistan; Bush allowed France to dictate the timing, and thus gave Iran and Syria 4 months to infiltrate Shia and Baathist groups; most importantly Bush ignored his own rhetoric and began to treat Syria and Iran as neighbors instead of enemies. 95% of the weapons and moneies that flow into Iraq come via Iran and Syria. In short, Bush allowed his own doctrine to die a slow death.

Jabelson writes:
"- in fact, these Black Helicopter boys think the Clinton Crew is in fact a 5th Column working to undermine the nation!"

Sorry Jabelson -- you are confused -- "Black helicopters" are an enigma wholly embraced by you lefties.

One last thing- Kim

As has been reported by others before, there have been much more severe punishments giving to military personnel who ACCIDENTAL mishandled classified documents then the punishment Berger received for INTENTIONALLY mishandling the documents.

Intent should have a consideration in punishment. Berger should have been permanently barred from having access to classified documents.

Packrat
Bergler should have gotten hard time in the Greybar Hotel.

jp
conservatives play fast and loose with facts, maybe because they get them from biased conservative media and don't know any better.

95% of arms come from iran and syria.


what about the huge piles of conventional weapons that were there but we did not destroy.

also saudi arabia as the leading sunni state certainly is supplying arms to the sunnis.

Phylo,
Hopefully you don't feel like your being picked on. Posters like tanabear are barely capable of thought, much less reasoned argument, so people address your points instead.

You say that Saddam didn't have any WMD's.
- Do you disagree with reports of "agricultural" chemicals stored in underground bunkers?
- Do you discount reports that shells with nerve gas were found?
- What about tapes which have been translated, where the topic is discussion the fooling of the UN inspectors?
- What about what happened to the Kurds?

Or, are chemical weapons not a type of WMD? There also were seemingly credible reports that Saddam moved several planes of equipment to Syria in cargo planes disguised as passenger jets under Russian supervision.

The best you can say is that we found WMD's but not any of the really bad ones. Given Saddam's desire to attack the US, his imperialist tendencies, his willingness to murder hundreds of thousands of his own citizens, can you honestly say that you didn't think him a threat?

And what did you expect to be found? Documents describing how to make a nuclear bomb? Perhaps some yellowcake uranium? Would THAT convince you?


BrianR,
I wonder what would happen if Bush fired the career staffers in the Justice Department who are most responsible for the wrist slap.

Any howling protest would only draw attention to a matter that the Democrats would like to keep on the down low.

Phylo
Google Al-Tuwaitha and Georges Sada. And then shut up.

Kimberly: BWAHAHAHAHA!!
You said…”The documents Berger allegedly took were not stolen from the archives, they were his own handwritten copies and did NOTHING to affect the outcome of the investigation. There was no devious goal to mislead the investigation or change testimony, because it didn't. Period. The worst he could be accused of was going against "the rules" - something that the Bush Administration hasn't followed since coming into office in 2000.”

Congratulations! I am going to print and clip this paragraph to keep as a prime example of an unhinged leftist’s self-refuting excuse for intelligent debate. Let’s examine this mighty piece of rhetorical splendor.

“The documents Berger allegedly took were not stolen from the archives…” Memo to Kimbat: Berger confessed to taking them, so there is nothing alleged about this – he stole them – from the archives.

“…they were his own handwritten copies…” He may have written them, but that did not make them his. As anyone who has ever worked for the government, or does not live in a cave knows, the work you produce, which includes notes and emails, belongs to the government. That is why they were in the National Archives. That is why no one without a security clearance can even look at them. That is why Berglar was prosecuted for stealing them.

“There was no devious goal to mislead the investigation or change testimony, because it didn't. Period.” This one may be my favorite. The evidence offered to support this allegation of non-devious intent – nada, other than to claim “it didn’t.” Short of another confession on Berglar’s or his handler’s part, due to the destruction of the documents in question, we will never know what the goal for removal was, or how the investigation was misdirected as a result of it.

Honestly, Kimbat, is this the best you can do? Pardon me if your assurance that nothing contained in the documents that were stolen and destroyed would have had no bearing on the proceedings that Berglar was prepping for, strains credibility. Unless Berglar provided you access to the documents before he (and you possibly?) destroyed them, you have no way of knowing the potential impact of their “disappearance”. And even if you did, accepting the word of an imbecile would still be more of a reach than most rational people would be willing to make.

religious lib....
Could those weapons caches, that you've pointed out, be the same ones that have been refurbished and are being used to resupply the Iraqi security forces?

Steve
Bush, a guy who can't even veto something like McCain/Feingold? Fire someone? Hold someone accountable?

That Bush?

response to tunneler
Phylo: "That the aluminum tubes were only capable of being used for centrifuging uranium."

Tunneler: That was not what was stated by Colin Powell and others. What was stated was that the aluminum tubes that were confiscated were of the proper grade (aluminum type and quality) and size to be used for the gas centrifuge process required to enrich uranium.

Phylo: A quick Google search proves you wrong:

The tubes were "only really suited for nuclear weapons programs," Condoleezza Rice, the president's national security adviser, explained on CNN on Sept. 8, 2002.

Let's see if you have the courage to admit you were wrong about that tunneler.


"That the mobile weapons labs were real."

tunneler: Two mobile weapons labs were indeed captured. It was written off that they were used to generate hydrogen for weather balloons, and yet, both facilities were disinfected with heavy doses of highly concentrated chlorine bleach. Correct me if I'm wrong, it has been a number of years since I've produced hydrogen, but the only things necessary, as I recall, for hydrogen production are two anodes, a rheostat, a electric source strong enough to overcome the molecular bond of hydrogen and oxygen, and a source of hydrogen and oxygen.....WATER. Disinfection certainly isn't something that is necessary when producing hydrogen.

Phylo: This is pure speculation on your part. The White House doesn't claim to have found the weapons labs. Are you making that claim for them? If you can find any solid evidence that proves there were mobile weapons labs, let's see it.

"That there were operational ties between Iraq and al queda."

tunneler: This is a statment that actually has some truth to it. It is known that at least 4 of the 9/11 hijackers got their training for taking over aircraft at Salman Pak. And there is one other incident, if you're interested, that at least demonstrates a connection between Al Qaeda and elements of Saddam's secret services through 3rd parties.

Phylo: Salman Pak was in the no fly zone––an area that Saddam didn't control. There is NO evidence––zip, zilch, nada––to support the claim that Saddam had ties with al Queda. If you have any let's see it. And remember, this is a claim that the White House repeated over and over again prior to the invasion.

"That Saddam had reconstituted his nuclear weapons program."

tunneler: Saddam hadn't reconstituted his nuclear weapons program but he was trying to do so. Saddam indeed tried to procure enriched Uranium from Niger. Niger has one product for export; uranium. So Saddam sending an agent to Niger to expand trade with Niger can mean only one thing. This ties in with the aluminum tubes that were confiscated.

Phylo: Saying that he WANTS TO reconstitute his nuclear weapons programs and saying that he HAS reconstituted his nuclear weapons programs are two totally different things. The White House told us that he HAD reconstituted his nuclear program. (By the way, even if he wanted to, he had no centrifuging program so he would've been years away from being able to produce anything; meaning there was no need to invade.)

tunneler: You're really going to have to try harder. Once again, you toss out statements claim them as lies and don't have facts to back up your assertions.

Phylo: I notice that you didn't touch the statements by Zinni and Drumheller––two people who know a lot more about the situation than you do. I suspect it's because you don't have a good answer for them.

And this is what I find so maddening about you people. You totally overlook these other inconvenient facts and, even after someone points them out, you just keep on going like nothing ever happened.

And Primus, if you're depending on this guy to do you're arguing for you, you're done. He's pathetic. None of these arguments debunk anything I've said. Not even a little bit.

Phylo out.

Liberals have solved the drug problem
Seeing a few of the regulars on the left launching into their "WMDs don't exist, it was all the Chimperor Bushitler Haliburton McFlyboy Dum-Dum-Deciders's lies!(along with Darth Cheney!)", I have to say that they have opened my eyes...

Based on the logic of the left, the US has no drug problem.

See, I think Saddam had WMDs and hid them in the massive wasteland called Iraq. But the left says that since the army can't find them in 4 years, then they don't exist.

By the same logic, I think a massive quantity of drugs have been secreted by dealers and suers throughout the US. But, using liberal logic, since all the many enforcement agencies (numbering far more than all our troops in Iraq) can't find them, they must not exist!

And, it doesn't even matter that we found some drugs. we found 500 shells of Sarin and mustard gas and the left says they don't count, so I say all the drugs found so far don't count. The police haven't found all the really BUIG stashes of drugs, so the drug problem doesn't exist, just like the WMDs in Iraq.

(I have the feeling some won't get my point, so here it is: In decades we have not stopped drug smuggling in the US using agent who know the area and speak the language. Why do you think we would find a much smaller quantity of WMDs, well hidden, sought by a smaller number of men, in a country we don't know as well, and where many do not speak the language? WMDs are even easier to hide, as dealers need to go to their drug stashes regularly, while WMDs can be hidden once and never visited again, yet we still fail to find a huge quantity of drugs in the US.)

Andrews -- yep
And as I wrote earlier, obviously Jimmy Hoffa never existed, either.

response to Steve O
Steve O: "You say that Saddam didn't have any WMD's.
- Do you disagree with reports of "agricultural" chemicals stored in underground bunkers?
- Do you discount reports that shells with nerve gas were found?
- What about tapes which have been translated, where the topic is discussion the fooling of the UN inspectors?
- What about what happened to the Kurds? "

Or, are chemical weapons not a type of WMD? There also were seemingly credible reports that Saddam moved several planes of equipment to Syria in cargo planes disguised as passenger jets under Russian supervision.

Phylo: Oh come on Steve O! The White House has said that they didn't find the WMD! The White House! Are you saying that you don't even believe the White House on this issue? My God what is it going to take to convince you morons that there were no WMD! Sorry for the name calling but I'm at my wit's end here!

Steve O: "The best you can say is that we found WMD's but not any of the really bad ones. Given Saddam's desire to attack the US, his imperialist tendencies, his willingness to murder hundreds of thousands of his own citizens, can you honestly say that you didn't think him a threat?"

Phylo: Yep, I can honestly say that he was not a threat. Had we let the inspections continue we would've realized that he had nothing.

Steve O: "And what did you expect to be found? Documents describing how to make a nuclear bomb? Perhaps some yellowcake uranium? Would THAT convince you?"

Phylo: I expected them to find the mobile weapons labs and a reconstituted nuclear program just like the White House said. And by the way, Saddam already had 500 tons of uranium and everyone knew about it. Which is one reason why the CIA thought the whole Niger thing was exaggerated by the Brits.


Phylo out.

response to Oscar
Oscar, I'm not impressed by the rantings of right wing propagandists.

So, until you get some better sources for your information, you shut up.

Phylo out

response to JP
JP: "Most of your points are strawman arguments designed to confuse the issue."

Phylo: That line, combined with the rest of your post is the textbook example of the pot calling the kettle black.

You haven't addressed any of my accusations directly. You're bringing up all kinds of superfluous information that has nothing to do with what I am accusing the White House of doing. Nothing!

My claims are that the White House told us things that were not backed up by any credible evidence.

They told us there were ties between Iraq and al Queda. They told has that Saddam had reconstituted his nuclear program. They told us that they had mobile weapons labs.

Unless you can give me some evidence that directly refutes any of my claims, how can you expect me to change my mind?

And, you, like all of the others who have responded to my earlier post, also failed to respond to the Drumheller transcript or the Zinni claim. I suspect, it's because you don't have a good answer for either one.

And if that's so, doesn't it at least raise a question in your mind about whether or not they lied. If not, why not?

Phylo out.

Salman Pak
Yeah, you can file this under wiseass comments but I don't think they were actually flying the plane at Salman Pak, it was in a training camp for use as a model for training plane hijacking. It wasn't a flight school, just a terrorist school. Within the "no-fly" zone doesn't necessarily mean that Saddam didn't control events on the ground. Just that he couldn't fly or maintain anti-aircraft batteries within that area.

Given that the whole "no-fly" zone notion was quickly falling apart due to a growing lack of interest in continuing sanctions, Saddam wouldn't have (what passed for) been contained much longer anyway. If he was to be taken out there was a narrowing window for doing it. There were a host of reasons for doing so even if you set aside the whole WMD thing, (which I don't -- existing stockpiles were likely transferred to the Becca Valley with Russian help -- this being the longest telegraphed punch in history).



wake up andrews
Not even the White House claims to have found the WMDs. Nor does the pentagon. But you still believe that they were there.

Unbelievable! You're hopelessly delusional.

Phylo out.


Drumheller and Saddam's Foreign Minister
Got to love the evidence that comes from a single 60 minutes segment about what one official claims Saddam's foreign minister said five years ago. What's especially amusing is the assertion that a high-level government official was recruited as a spy and then proceeded to hand the CIA the official Saddam government line, which was instantly believed by the White House. Priceless. Anyone swallowing this whole is rather breathtaking in their credulity.

Apparently, though, there doesn't seem to be across-the-board agreement about Sabri said and to whom he said it, but judging from the sources I have found, it looks almost as if Drumheller knew only about Sabri's public pronouncements and knew nothing of his private claims, all assertions to the contrary.

From http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2006/03/foreign_minister_claimed_sadda.html:

Today's Washington Post adds new information to the NBC News piece but not until paragraphs five and six. We learn that Sabri told the CIA that Saddam was lying, that biological weapons research was underway, and that Saddam had dispersed chemical weapons to loyal tribes.

Publicly Sabri was insisting that Iraq had no prohibited weapons of mass destruction. Privately, the sources said, he provided information that the Iraqi dictator had ambitions for a nuclear program but that it was not active, and that no biological weapons were being produced or stockpiled, although research was underway.

From http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/22/wirq22.xml:

CIA 'recruited Saddam's foreign minister to spy on Iraqi regime'
By Francis Harris in Washington
Last Updated: 1:39am GMT 23/03/2006



Saddam Hussein's foreign minister was recruited by the CIA to spy on the regime, a US television network said.


Naji Sabri: recruited in 2002
Naji Sabri told the intelligence agency that Iraq possessed secret stocks of chemical weapons.

Sabri today denied the claims, made by NBC's Nightly News. If confirmed, they would help to explain why President Bush and Tony Blair were so confident that Saddam was lying about weapons of mass destruction.

Mr Sabri reportedly said Saddam had around "500 metric tonnes of chemical warfare agents", that production of the agents had been renewed and that Iraq had additional stockpiles left over from the Iran-Iraq war.

From http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11927856/ (As noted by PowerLine, msnbc conveniently buried this part of their story in paragraph 6. Thank you, MSM):

On the issue of chemical weapons, the CIA said Saddam had stockpiled as much as "500 metric tons of chemical warfare agents" and had "renewed" production of deadly agents. Sabri said Iraq had stockpiled weapons and had "poison gas" left over from the first Gulf War. Both Sabri and the agency were wrong.

From http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/10/the_real_story_behind_the_nige.html:

Another key lies in the recent Senate Prewar Intelligence Review Phase II report. The report reveals that Saddam's Foreign Minster told the US government that Saddam was trying to build a bomb. He said Saddam was trying to get uranium and was irate that his nuclear team was taking too long.

In September 2002, the CIA obtained, from a source, information that allegedly came from a high—level Iraqi official with direct access to Saddam Hussein and his inner circle. The information this source provided was considered so important and so sensitive that the CIA's Directorate of Operations prepared a highly restricted intelligence report to alert senior policymakers about the reporting. Because of the sensitivity, however, that it was not disseminated to Intelligence Community analysts.

Concerned that something may have been missed in our first Iraq review, the Committee began to request additional information from the Intelligence Community and to question current and former CIA officers who were involved in this issue. As noted above, the Committee has not completed this inquiry, but we have seen the operational documentation pertaining to this case.

We can say that there is not a single document related to this case which indicates that the source said Iraq had no WMD programs. On the contrary, all of the information about this case so far indicates that the information from this source was that Iraq did have WMD programs.

So what did Saddam's foreign minister tell the US government? From the report: [emphasis mine]

The intelligence report conveyed information from the source attributed to the Iraqi official which said:


Iraq was not in possession of a nuclear weapon. However, Iraq was aggressively and covertly developing such a weapon. Saddam, irate that Iraq did not yet have a nuclear weapon because money was no object and because Iraq possessed the scientific know how, had recently called meeting his Nuclear Weapons Committee.

The Committee told Saddam that a nuclear weapon would be ready within 18—24 months of acquiring the fissile material.

Needles in haystacks
What is harder to find, the "right to abortion" in the Constitution or chemical weapons in a desert the size of California?

Phylo
So according to your logic Clinton(Bill and Hillary), Albright and many other Democrats lied about WMDs as well. So why aren't you demonizing them as well? Oh wait I forgot! When Bush took office Bubba waved his magic wand and made them disappear right Phylo

Phylo
So, mustard and sarin are not WMDs? And we didn't find them? And how exactly did Saddam kill those kurds? Flatulence?

I think we can see who is delusional.

Phylo out (of his mind)...

Or maybe

Phylo out (of sensible arguments)...

Phylo (I don't know why I waste my time)
Phylo wrote, incredibly:

inkling revival: "Assuming -- and we're just assuming for the sake of argument, not agreeing -- that everything you say is true, does it affect even ONE FOURTH of the reasons we went to war? No. It doesn't. It hardly touches the case at all."

Phylo: "So the h•ll what! It doesn't change the fact that they lied you idiot."

Glad you agree with my assessment. So, now let me explain THE H*LL WHAT it means.

It means that the case for the Iraq war was valid, and that you guys have never even come close to demonstrating that it wasn't. We know this because most of the reasons cited for the war (using the AUMF as a template) are unarguably true, and have never been disputed by ANYBODY.

It means, also, that the Democrats who have been saying "BUSH LIED TO US, and we never would have signed it if we'd known" about the AUMF are lying through their teeth, since even if he hadn't, nearly all the reasons THEY, THEMSELVES articulated for the war were, and still are, valid.

But let's take it a step further. You want to make the case that the Bush admin lied to get us into the war. And yet, by your own admission, nearly everything they said about Iraq in the run-up to the war was true; it was just a few items that they allegedly lied about. So tell me -- what sense does it make for the Bush admin to lie about a few items when the bulk of the case is absolutely true?

See, Phylo, the thing is, if you really want us to believe the Bush admin concocted the entire Iraq war out of thin air, you can't just identify one or two items you feel were inaccurate; you have to show that THE WHOLE SHOW was created out of thin air. And nobody's even made the slightest attempt to show that, because it's obviously not the case. You're looking at a list of 12 reasons why the Iraq war was essential, saying "ITEM 3 and ITEM 9 ARE BOGUS!!!" and expecting the rest of us to ignore reasons 1-2, 4-8, and 10-12. Why should we do that?

So I'm ignoring, for the moment, that your arguments about items 3 and 9 are laughable. Just to make you happy, I'll agree with your items 3 and 9. Now, please explain to me why the other 9 uncontested items are not sufficient justification for the war.

I'm waiting... but I'm not holding my breath.

Oh, I forgot
It was probably Donald Rumsfeld who secretly killed the Kurds in order to justify the Chimperor's War? Right? And Darth Cheney planted those sarin and mustard gas shells, but Bush packed them and XChimpy McBushitler was too stooopid and packed the old sarin gas that isn't effective any more. Right?

Do I have the DailyKos argument down?

Ahenobarbus
Great post... maybe Phylo will just "admit defeat" now and go away...

Probably not though... I'm sure there was one minor unrefuted meaningless detail you failed to counter that has made your entire post "null & void" in his "mind"... what there is of it.

Blackmun lied
kids died

Phylo
Phylo:
response to Oscar
Oscar, I'm not impressed by the rantings of right wing propagandists.

So, until you get some better sources for your information, you shut up

Packrat: Whose rantings do impress you? Who specifically do you identify as right wing propagandists as opposed to right wing columnists? Curious.

inkling -
Per Phylogic - can now we argue that since Libby wasn't convicted on all 5 charges that the one acquittal renders the other 4 guilty verdicts invalid?

Phylo
This critisism is not meant to insult you but you will find civility is important in swaying opinion and converting people into agreeing with at least some of your view points. Unless of course your entire purpose is only to demean, abuse and belittle in which case your approach works but do not become frustrated when others are then hesitant to entertain your views.

To some of your points.

How long, or I should say how much longer would you have continued inspections? They had been on going for what eight years and nothing was conclusive. In short how long is longer?

There were no claims that the nuclear weapons program had been reconstructed. The claim was that Iraq was in the process of reconstructing it and we should act before they were allowed to complete it.

Given months of advanced warnig would you have left your most important and damnening weapons where they would be found? Yes I honestly believe he had them and yes I believe they were secreted away in the months leading to the invasion.

And Phylo, tell me, had we found these things and the ground situation in Iraq were still as it is today. Would you then be willing to "Stay the Course" knowing we had captured these weapons or would you be demanding we leave simply based on the problems we face right now?

Clinton coverup complete
Berger was tasked with eliminating anything that might make Slick Willy look bad. Mission accomplished.
The unanswered question about the Joe Wilson affair that the MSM is totally uninterested in asking is: Why was there a group within the CIA including his wife that was working to undermine our foreign policy?

Virginia Patriot
I think Barone was "introducing facts not in evidence" with his Berger was acting on Clinton's orders claim. I think Berger was quite capable of doing irreparable damage to national security without any input from Clinton just as I believe the obverse is true. Barone needs to cough up something more than "Berger was a follower".

Penalty vs. consequences
In Berger's case, he stole classified documents. Because they are classified, we don't know what the consequence was, but one must assume they don't classify documents for the fun of it. He got off with a rich man's rebuke.

In Libby's case, there was no crime. So he lied about nothing. Which means there was no consequence to our national security. He has been convicted of four felonies. One can only assume the penalty will be very much disproportional to the consequence of what he did.

Nick Kasoff
http://www.thugreport.com

Jabelson
Pretty impressive demonstration of how to sneer at an opponent's argument without actually saying anything. You get a C- for facts, but an A for rhetoric skill.

"both claim that the Bush Justice Department is really the Clinton Justice Department in disguise ... this is the competence of the Bush Administration - they can't even run their own house - but Clinton - the one they hate, he was smart enough to rig the government for YEARS to come!"

700,000 members of the executive branch, including all departments; it's not all that hard to hide in that number of people.

Nobody ever said that Clinton was a dummy. Quite the contrary; he's the epitome of why intelligence is no substitute for virtue. His intelligence combined with his sociopathy make him highly dangerous.

So dangerous, in fact, that he used his position in the White House in a partisan manner nobody before him dared imagine, because it's just so clearly destructive. As I already pointed out, nobody had ever attacked the Justice Dept the way Billy Bob did, because everybody understood the need for at least the appearance of non-partisanship in the US Attorney's office. Nor did any previous President dare fire the Director of the FBI, for the same reason -- it destroys the appearance of objectivity in a branch that needs objectivity.

"Never mind that the LEAD prosecuotr in the Berger case was Noel Hillman - appointed to the bench by george Bush - so i guess he's an apparent lefty hack - who also happened to train his sights on Hillary Clinton..."

Hillman was appointed by Bush because Bush is the President. It's no sign of purity; it's simply a date marker. Bush appoints members of both parties to judgeships. Of course, Hillman isn't in the US Attorney's office, either; he's a federal judge. So I don't see how this has even the slightest bearing on the argument I raised.


response to ahenobarbus
Your post is so rambling and incoherent that it's hard to understand what you're saying.

All I know is Drumheller stands by what he says. He's convinced that the White House manipulated the intel.

Go read what he said on Feb 1st of this year. http://www.unbossed.net/index.php?itemid=1314

And nothing you've posted directly contradicts what he said. If you are trying to claim that Sabri is a liar, where is your proof? Who is even claiming this?

Phylo out

Hahahahaha!
I just had to laugh at Phylo's complaint about someone else's post being long and rambling.

That was too funny!

BrianR
ROTFLMAO!!!

Don't you just LOVE it when the "smartest man in the room" finds other's long-winded opinions incoherant?

I've got to save this thread in my "Favorites" for future entertainment.

Primus
LOL

Good thought!

BrianR
Just read your line about Hoffa. Good one.

response to ahenobarbus by Phylo
LOL! THAT IS RICH coming from the KING of cut and paste.

As to Berger and Libby
Well what are you going to do, when Sandy Boy got nabbed for checking out material without a library card did anyone really think he was going to a room in county much less see any federal time? I'm not asking did he deserve to go, but did you really expect him to? No, me neither.

And Libby, remind me again what exactly was it he got convicted of, he didn't remember that he had already forgotten something in the wrong order or some non-sense. "Sir, you are here-by found guilty of having a faulty memory of an occurance that was found to not be criminal". Outstanding.

And some of you people really think Bush is going to pardon him? Look for a pardon, if it happens, to come sometime in the twighlight hours of January '08 right after those two border patrol officers get out. Maybe. If he remembers.

Leroy
The Libby trial reminds me of a cartoon I saw of a gut feeding money into a vending machine. He asks his buddy for another quarter and the guys asks him what he's doing. His reply?

"This machine is like our justice system. You feed ALL of your money into it and hope for the best."

I don't know about anyone else but I'd rather face a judge than a jury of 12 morons, trusting my life to them? BRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!

Phylo Se Fiser
SIXTY MINUTES as a SOURCE? HAHA.

That's ALMOST as funny as when you use Wikipedia as a source.

I'm betting you still believe Dan Blather's memos on Bush as the real deal.

Gunny: BUT
I'd trust my life to a "jury of my peers". My peers would be gun-luvin', illegal-alien hatin', Constitutional constructionists with a job and at least some intelligence.



Ooooops!

I eliminated the jury pool.

Phylo's own words


"The right's contention is that the White House didn't lie because the 16 words were factually correct. Which is actually true. But it's only half of the truth.

The 16 words accurately claim that Iraq tried to buy uranium from Niger. As Wilson himself reported, a delegation from Iraq DID go to Niger and inquire about "expanding trade relations". However, Wilson ALSO reported that the inquiry went no where, and that, given the security situation, it was highly doubtful that a transaction ever could've occured."
Source TPMmuckracker



OMG, he's admitting the 16 words weren't a lie

Dude3344
That's how the libdolt THINKS amigo. Since THEY believe it, they think everyone else should as well! haha. Like the people who thought that the world was flat, today's libdolts believe in things like Global Warming, no death penalty, forced Diversity, etc.

Alms for the challenged
Why doesn’t Phylo use his same powers to demyth what Clintons did? Why that need and persistence of Berger to retrieve documents. That was the article.

Or as Berger would later admit, “…when I was in the Archives reviewing documents, I made an honest mistake. It's one that I deeply regret," Berger said. "I dealt with this issue in October 2003 fully and completely. Everything that I have done all along in this process has been for the purpose of aiding and supporting the work of the 9/11 commission, and any suggestion to the contrary is simply, absolutely wrong."

Some concept of right (honest) and wrong, wouldn’t you say?

Xpressit it: Gotta laugh!
I love that Sandy Burglar quote of yours: "“…when I was in the Archives reviewing documents, I made an honest mistake."

What, he mistook his socks and underwear for the file cabinet?



Man, that is too frikkin funny!

SJR -------- LIBBY'S PLEA DEAL
SJR ,
YOUR POST ON LIBBY'S PLEA DEAL ,
CONCERNING BERGER ( SECOND PARAGRAPH)
I S THE BEST POST THAT I HAVE EVER
SEEN ON A TOWNHALL ARTICLE .
LIKE ABOU BEN ADHEM OF OLD , MAY YOUR
TRIBE INCREASE.
BEST REGARDS,
the old snipehunter

BrianR
Humorous, isn’t it? Another is “"I inadvertently took a few documents from the archives," Berger said in a statement.

Gunny
You don't know the half of the "12 morons" story.

Like the "One Bad Apple" tale:
The "lady" that did not win foreman of our jury, went postal on us-

I went in somewhat normal; I came out a moron!!!
A judge -Gunny-to be SURE!



Sorry...
Did I say a pardon in January '08, meant '09. Elections will be in '08, that's when I am afraid the Republicans loose the Oval Office and the Democratic grandslam is complete.

Some Dem in the White House

Hillary still a Carpet Bagging Yankee Senator

Ted Kennedy still a lush

John Kerry still a back stabber

John Edwards still a phaggot

San Fran Nan still with that crazy look and not one ounce of brains

Liberman does go over to the Republicans the people in his new party make him look like a real onservative

McCain goes over to the Democrats and the people in his new party find him a little too liberal

Jimmy Carter goes to Africa, finds a dictator accepting Americvan foriegn aid murdering half his own countrymen, but the guy hates the US. Carter declares his new friend a giant among men.

And our military begin to see first hand what their fathers and uncles described to them about the death throes of Saigon or the Khamer Rouge. And then they will wonder, just like their fathers, where in the he11 did it all go wrong?

Yep, another glorious Democratic victory, smiling and congratulating themselves, never understanding the real meaning of throwing lives away or that the killing and butchery just started.

tanabear

What’s to make up tanabear, what’s to speculate? Berger could be back in “service” to an administration – security clearance in tow – while Libby is still serving his sentence.

response to inkling revival
inkling revival: See, Phylo, the thing is, if you really want us to believe the Bush admin concocted the entire Iraq war out of thin air, you can't just identify one or two items you feel were inaccurate; you have to show that THE WHOLE SHOW was created out of thin air. And nobody's even made the slightest attempt to show that, because it's obviously not the case. You're looking at a list of 12 reasons why the Iraq war was essential, saying "ITEM 3 and ITEM 9 ARE BOGUS!!!" and expecting the rest of us to ignore reasons 1-2, 4-8, and 10-12. Why should we do that? So I'm ignoring, for the moment, that your arguments about items 3 and 9 are laughable. Just to make you happy, I'll agree with your items 3 and 9. Now, please explain to me why the other 9 uncontested items are not sufficient justification for the war. I'm waiting... but I'm not holding my breath


Phylo: What utter nonsense. If I sell you a car and I only lie about the engine and the transmission, but I don't lie about everything else, does that mean I didn't lie?

How would you feel if, after your car broke down, I said "Hey dude, what's you're problem. I didn't lie about everything. I only lied about two things."

Let me help you people out here. I'll make it really easy. If you want to convince me that the White House didn't lie, you're going to have to give me some direct evidence that shows that, prior to the invasion, they had solid evidence to back up their claims that:

1) There were ties between Iraq and al Queda
2) That Iraq had mobile weapons labs.
3) That Saddam had, in fact, reconstituted his nuclear program. (Like Cheney said.)

By the way, regarding number three, some of you have claimed that the White House never said that Saddam had reconstituted his nuclear program; only that he WANTED to.

Here's proof that they did. And an admission by Cheney that they never had any evidence to back up the claim. (And check the source. I assume you folks trust WorldNetDaily.)

By Paul Sperry
© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com


WASHINGTON – In the past week, three top Bush administration officials have backed off charges they made against Iraq, explaining they misspoke or overstated the facts.

Vice President Dick Cheney over the weekend withdrew an alarming assertion he made on national television, on the eve of war, about Saddam Hussein's alleged weapons of mass destruction.


Vice President Dick Cheney

"We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons," Cheney said March 16 on NBC's "Meet the Press."

Since making the allegation, the administration has turned up no nuclear or other weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, nor has it been able to produce any hard evidence that Saddam even reconstituted a nuclear weapons program.

"Meet the Press" host Tim Russert gave Cheney a chance to clarify his prewar statement in a return appearance on his show Sunday.

"'Reconstituted nuclear weapons.' You misspoke?" Russert asked.

"Yeah, I did misspeak .... We never had any evidence that he had acquired a nuclear weapon," said Cheney, known for his careful choice of words.

Straight from the horses mouth, just like I've been telling you boneheads since the beginning.

Phylo out.






Xpressit
That's great! "Inadvertantly"!

How do you n

Xpressit
Stupid site's not working worth a damn today.

As to "inadvertant": how do you NOT NOTICE five pounds of documents stuffed in your socks and underwear?

tanabear
"The reports that came to the CIA from Italy's military intelligence(SISMI) were based on the forged documents."

But those were not the basis of the CIA's assessment that Iraq was attempting to buy yellowcake. Please go read the Senate Intelligence Committee's Report on Prewar Intelligence in Iraq (http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/congress/2004_rpt/iraq-wmd-intell_toc.htm), section II, "Niger", starting on page 36. It explains in great detail what information the CIA had and when.

The forged document you mention was alleged to have come from French intel, and was created specifically to be produced if any intelligence agency actually discovered the real attempts by Iraq to purchase yellowcake; by producing the obviously forged documents, the French hoped to discredit anybody who blew the whistle on the transaction. Since you've obviously bought their ploy, you may congratulate yourself on having been utterly duped by a FRENCH disinformation tactic. Nice going.

response to Leroy
Leroy: How long, or I should say how much longer would you have continued inspections? They had been on going for what eight years and nothing was conclusive. In short how long is longer?

Phylo: After a few more months they would've have been able to discover that he had nothing. In fact, I think one of the reasons we went in when we did was because Bush was afraid that the UN would declare that there were no WMDs.

Leroy: "There were no claims that the nuclear weapons program had been reconstructed. The claim was that Iraq was in the process of reconstructing it and we should act before they were allowed to complete it."

Phylo: Check this out. I got it from WorldNetDaily by googling: Cheney Saddam nuclear claims:

By Paul Sperry
© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com


WASHINGTON – In the past week, three top Bush administration officials have backed off charges they made against Iraq, explaining they misspoke or overstated the facts.

Vice President Dick Cheney over the weekend withdrew an alarming assertion he made on national television, on the eve of war, about Saddam Hussein's alleged weapons of mass destruction.

Vice President Dick Cheney

"We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons," Cheney said March 16 on NBC's "Meet the Press."

Since making the allegation, the administration has turned up no nuclear or other weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, nor has it been able to produce any hard evidence that Saddam even reconstituted a nuclear weapons program.

"Meet the Press" host Tim Russert gave Cheney a chance to clarify his prewar statement in a return appearance on his show Sunday.

"'Reconstituted nuclear weapons.' You misspoke?" Russert asked.

"Yeah, I did misspeak .... We never had any evidence that he had acquired a nuclear weapon," said Cheney, known for his careful choice of words.

I hope that answers that.


Leroy: Given months of advanced warning would you have left your most important and damnening weapons where they would be found? Yes I honestly believe he had them and yes I believe they were secreted away in the months leading to the invasion.

Phylo: You can believe what ever you want I suppose. But the experts have testified that he didn't have any. Don't you feel you need some evidence to back up your claim? Otherwise it's pure speculation on your part.

Leroy: And Phylo, tell me, had we found these things and the ground situation in Iraq were still as it is today. Would you then be willing to "Stay the Course" knowing we had captured these weapons or would you be demanding we leave simply based on the problems we face right now?

Phylo: Good question. Honestly, I would feel very differently about this war overall. But, at this point, I'm not sure if we should stay or go. There are no good options. If we stay we'll be spending tons of money to prop up a government that will have closer ties to our enemies than our allies. If we go, we risk a bloodbath and the shutting off of our oil supply which would be terrible for our economy. Either way, it looks like we're screwed. Way to go Bush. Thanks a lot.

Phylo out.

response to Gunny
Hey Gunny, my source isn't 60 minutes. It's Tyler Drumheller. Former Cheif of European Operations for the CIA.

Phylo out.

Phylo
Your analogy is just, plain bad. If I give you 10 reasons why we should invade Iraq, and 2 of them turn out to have been mistaken, that leaves 8 perfectly good reasons to invade. You know this perfectly well, which is why you won't argue the point.

My point was, simply, even if we believe everything the Left says, there was still ample reason to invade Iraq. I base this on things the LEFT said before invading Iraq, that were all true and have not been disputed. You haven't answered. I guess you agree.

Now, let's accept, without quibble, that Dick Cheney misspoke when he said Iraq had reconstituted a nuclear weapons program. Answer this question for me:

so what?

"So he lied." No, so he misspoke. See my previous point: it has no impact on the case for the war in Iraq. None. The case wasn't based on that specific claim.

"So they were trying to get us into the Iraq war." Yes, they were -- for all the reasons listed in the AUMF. See my previous point: it has no impact on the case for the Iraq war. None. The case wasn't based on that specific claim.

etc.

Are you getting it now?

The point is, son, you and your unthinking cronies have been wasting all our time with irrelevancies. You've raised an argument that, if true in every regard, has no impact whatsoever, and changes not a thing.

Now, will you please SHUT THE F*** UP???????????

re: phylo stfu
"A fanatic is a person who cannot change his mind, and will not change the subject." Winston Churchill

Phylo... read, and internalize.

inkling revival
They never would've been able to sell this war even they didn't exaggerate (i.e., lie about) the threat from Iraq.

Those two points provide all of the urgency to their argument.

If they could've made the case for going to war without lying they should've done so.

And you seem to be intentionally shifting the focus of my argument from whether or not they lied to whether or not we should've invaded.

I'm not going to allow you to try and mirsdirect me on this point. The point I'm making is that they lied. If you want to admit that, we can move forward on to your point.

And Cheney knows damn well that "misspoke" is a euphimism for "lie". He even admits that they had NO EVIDENCE to be making that claim. Compare that to the certainty with which he made the claims prior to the war and the lie is seen with stunning clarity. (You actually have to see the film to get a true picture of the depth and the boldness of the lie.)

I had never actually seen that quote before. Reading that was worth all of this arguing. And to read on WORLDNETDAILY, Oh what a hoot!

Phylo out.

oops
First sentence should read "They never would've been able to sell this war IF they didn't exaggerate (i.e., lie about) the threat from Iraq."

A theoretical point
Let's work our way back into history. Let's say that after Bush received intelligence reports from Russia, from Egypt, from England, from the CIA and the FBI that said Iraq had WMD's. Let's say he received these voluminous reports, and he still did nothing. Let's say then that Saddam either directly attacked us, or he provided this weaponry to terrorists in Afghanistan. Let's say that in the latter move, three to four times the American casualties occurred in the war in Afghanistan versus that which has occurred in Iraq. What would we say then? Of course, the war we are now experiencing in Iraq would shift to the war in Afghanistan, for the insurgents would move to Afghanistan to defeat America there. And it's more than possible that they would be better armed with these WMD's.

What would we say of Bush then? Democrats could then provide proof that Clinton and Gore spoke of these WMD's in a previous administration, yet Bush still did nothing.

I dare say that the impeachment charges that Democrats bring up every other week might actually some basis on this count, for Bush would've failed in his duties to protect America if he failed to do anything with all of this information.

BrianR
"..how do you NOT NOTICE five pounds of documents stuffed in your socks and underwear?"

Its easier if they still don’t know what the meaning of is is. Not to worry, Berger likes to keep in good company, to retain his integrity, like Lee Hamilton. A shame so many question and misjudge the inadvertent acts of Berger!

CIA Officers and 60 Minutes
Ah, Primus, you were so close:


Primus54 wrote: Monday, March, 12, 2007 3:12 PM
"Ahenobarbus
Great post... maybe Phylo will just "admit defeat" now and go away...

Probably not though... I'm sure there was one minor unrefuted meaningless detail you failed to counter that has made your entire post "null & void" in his "mind"... what there is of it."


As you can see, the fingers-in-ears-and-declaring "I can't hear you" tactic was chosen:


Phylo Se Fiser wrote: Monday, March, 12, 2007 3:51 PM
response to ahenobarbus
"Your post is so rambling and incoherent that it's hard to understand what you're saying. ..."


Well, notwithstanding the point that I don't consider 60 Minutes such an unimpeachable source that anything they air automatically ends all debate, I find the claim the Drumheller made to be, quite frankly, incredible. That claim essentially goes like this:

1. Saddam says he has no WMD.
2. Bush does not believe Saddam, presumably because he has intelligence telling him otherwise.
3. Saddam's Foreign Minister agrees to be a spy for the CIA.
4. Saddam's Foreign Minister tells the CIA that Saddam has no "active weapons of mass destruction program," contradicting its other intelligence.
5. George Tenet, the same man who told Bush that the case for Saddam's WMD program was a "slam dunk," automatically accepts Saddam's Foreign Minister's version of the truth and unskeptically passes it along to Bush and his cabinet.
6. No one in this scenario considers that a "high ranking source" that parrots his government's official line might be trying to bamboozle them.

That is the claim that I find to be incredible.

But that's not the end of it. Going to three other sources, I find reporting from NBC, the Washington Post, and the Senate Prewar Intelligence Review Phase II report. These reports claim to get their information from several sources. They all say essentially the same thing, that Saddam's Foreign Minister publicly proclaimed that Saddam had no WMD programs but privately told the CIA and the Administration that he did.

So we are left with Drumheller's assertion in a 60 minutes interview on one side, and these three other sources on the other side. Everyone can draw their own conclusions, but I suspect either one of two things: 1) Drumheller was not actually in that meeting, but was basing his claims on Sabri's public statements, or 2) He was confused Sabri's statement about Saddam's not having a nuclear weapon with his not having an "active weapons of mass destruction program."

In fact the Senate Prewar intelligence report contained the following, which was in one of the sources I cited earlier:


"Iraq was not in possession of a nuclear weapon. However, Iraq was aggressively and covertly developing such a weapon. Saddam, irate that Iraq did not yet have a nuclear weapon because money was no object and because Iraq possessed the scientific know how, had recently called meeting his Nuclear Weapons Committee.

The Committee told Saddam that a nuclear weapon would be ready within 18-24 months of acquiring the fissile material."

I could be wrong, but the preponderance of evidence does not point that way. To paraphrase an ex-CIA Director, Drumheller's 60 Minutes interview is not a "slam dunk."

Single source
Ever notice the left will latch onto a single source and turn him into an "unimpeachable" source? Or, better yet, turn this one person into "unimpeachable sourceS"?

And then they attack their critics for trusting in "just one source"?

How does that work?

To be fair
Actually, though the left in general is guilty of what I described, I should have said:

Ever notice how Phylo finds a source that supports his preconceptions and that becomes the one true source of all information? He refuses to recognize any other source and refuses to even consider his anointed source may be wrong in part or in whole?

I know everyone is guilty of something similar to some degree or another, but most of us try to minimize the degree to which our preconceptions influence our arguments, Phylo appears to actively embrace his preconceptions without embarassment.

Open minded he is not.

Phylo out (of the running for being considered "open minded").

If no one posted
Phylo out: yes you are.

Phylo in : I'm always right.

Phylo out: I'm always right>

Phylo in: That can't be

Phylo out: can too

Phylo in: can not

Phylo out can too

Can not...can too...can not

A true philosopher would know
that it is foolish to think that we must have known in the past what we know in the present, and that we will never know more in the future.

Chesterton warned against engaging in idolatry of the present.

Man you people are unbelievable
If Saddam had this pile of WMDs and knew Bush was going invade Iraq WHY WOULD HE HIDE THEM IN THE DESERT OR SEND THEM TO SYRIA INSTEAD OF USING THEM AGAINST THE INVADING ARMY? Does that make any sense at all? C'mon all you Bush appologist, explain THAT! Or IF we found the WMDs as many of you have posted, why didn't Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield and Rove shout about it from the roof tops? If the Niger yellowcake story was true why did Bush himself say it wasn't and it should not have been included in the State of the Union speech? Why has EVERY non-partisan report come to the conclusion that there was NO link between Iraq and al Quada? I could go on but I would be wasting my breath. You people are so caught up in your partisan BS you don't care what the real truth is. That goes for 90% of the posters on this site be they republican or democrat. And another thing, if our "intelligance" services are as inept as you say they are why is anyone still listening to them? Just to clear up one other item; it is ROUTINE for a newly elected president to replace virtually ALL U.S. attorneys at the beginning of their term. It is practically unheard of for them (U.S. attounerys)to be replaced mid-term. Especially when they have received nothing but positive reviews of their work. You want proof Bush isn't adverse to lying? What ever happened to "If anyone in my administration is found to have been involved in the leaking of the identity of a CIA agents name they will be dealt with." He did not say "if anyone is convicted of..." He said "anyone involved in..." We all know Cheney and Rove were both "involved in" the leak by their own admission but yet NOTHING has happened to them. If that does not constitute a lie, I don't know what does. Anyone remember Tony Snow saying at a press conference that he had personally spoken to Cheney and Rove and they both assurd him that they were NOT involved in any way in the leaking of the identity of Ms. Plame's CIA status. More bold faced lies. C'mon let's see you refute cold hard facts!

Rilaly
Rilaly wrote: "Let's say that after Bush received intelligence reports from Russia, from Egypt, from England, from the CIA and the FBI that said Iraq had WMD's. Let's say he received these voluminous reports, and he still did nothing. Let's say then that Saddam either directly attacked us, or he provided this weaponry to terrorists in Afghanistan. Let's say that in the latter move, three to four times the American casualties occurred in the war in Afghanistan versus that which has occurred in Iraq. What would we say then?"

You're kidding right? Well let's say we were not attacked on 9/11/01 and Bush had decided to attack Canada for no reason and declared himself king. What would you think of him then?

Rilaly wrote: "I dare say that the impeachment charges that Democrats bring up every other week might actually some basis on this count, for Bush would've failed in his duties to protect America....."

Gee, who was the President of The United States of America on 9/11/01? So it seems to me Bush DID fail to protect America. Blame Clinton all you want but he was NOT the president on 9/11/01.
See how stupid you sound?

Someone explain to me
If Bush is so dedicated to protecting this country why is our southern boarder STILL wide open for anyone to cross?

Why is Bush fighting tooth and nail against securing it?

Why are less than 10% of the shipping containers that pass through our ports inspected?

Why are the majority of chemical and nuclear plants in this country still unprotected?

Why do the above situations still exist if we are under such a grave and imminant threat of being attacked again?

If the NSA's warrantless wiretaps were not illegal why has the Bush administration decided to no longer persue them and to now abide by the FISA?

When did it become part of America's values to TORTURE people?


I forgot. You do know...
...the answers to the questions in my previous post. IT'S ALL CLINTON'S FAULT! The fact he has been out of office for over SIX years is irrelevant.
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