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Thursday, November 22, 2007
Matt Towery :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Ron Paul Factor
by Matt Towery
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


As we continue to poll and observe the various states involved in the early caucus/primary battles for the Republican presidential nomination, one thing is becoming increasingly clear to me: While Ron Paul may lag behind most of his GOP competitors in the polls, the intensity of devotion from his supporters makes his candidacy deserving of more attention than it's gotten to date.

His sometimes-quirky mannerisms and oddball demeanor fly in the face of what most Republicans traditionally look for in their presidential nominees. And his comments startle many for their bluntness and contrariness to long-running establishment GOP thinking.

That's exactly why Paul could have an unexpected impact not only on the Republican nomination process, but also on the November general election as well.

Consider that over 600 people turned out for a rally for Paul in Reno, Nevada, recently. The media described the crowd as a mixed group that included many college students.

That's another indicator of the potential impact of the Paul campaign. I recall in 1980 when establishment Republicans and conservatives were backing George H.W. Bush, John Connally or Howard Baker for president.

But on college campuses, the birth of the modern College Republicans movement was feeding off of the support of frustrated college students for the maverick in the race, Ronald Reagan.

Don't get me wrong. I am not predicting Paul will pull a Reagan and somehow beat out the GOP's establishment contenders. I will suggest that Paul may fatally damage several potential candidates, and perhaps the entire Republican Party, if he breaks away and runs as a legitimate third-party candidate after Tsunami Tuesday's primaries in early February.

Paul blends a unique mixture of cynicism over the health of the economy, loud opposition to the erosion of civil liberties, plus a stand as the only GOP candidate who's flat-out opposed to the war in Iraq.

Those issues unite a seemingly disparate group of voters who collectively feel that 20 years of the presidency being shared between two families -- the Clintons and Bushes -- is more than enough. They are voters who have found their mouthpiece in Paul, who's willing to voice their frustration over Republicans, Democrats and whoever and whatever else represents "The Establishment."

Paul could be deadly to someone like conservative Mike Huckabee, who is steadily rising in many polls but can't be assured of the devoted turnout of his supporters, as Paul almost surely can.

Paul's words have also taken away some of the ink that should have gone to Fred Thompson, who entered the race as the supposed "I'll say anything and throw caution to the wind" candidate, but whose measured and often boring campaign speeches have consistently fallen short of their billing.

Unlike many GOP candidates, Paul hasn't tried to have his cake and eat it, too, on the subject of President Bush. He has little or nothing charitable to say about the president. And with new revelations coming from Bush's own press secretary about "who knew what when" in the CIA leak scandal, Paul's distance seems all the wiser.

How do I think Ron Paul will impact 2008? It's at least possible that he'll fare better than expected -- and not just eventually in scattered primaries, but as early as next week in the much-awaited CNN/YouTube debate in Florida. Paul is often quicker and less plastic than his counterparts, and could do well in such a format.

But where will Ron Paul really do his damage? It could be by seriously damaging the Republican establishment his followers so despise.

How? By running as a third-party candidate. In critical "Red States," where the vote may turn on just a small percent, Paul could block any hope of a GOP victory.

That would likely mean a Hillary Clinton presidency. But it might also mean a true remake of the Republican Party for the future. The abandonment of the get-along, go-along Republican Party is something that many, including and beyond Paul's supporters, would like to see.

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About The Author
Matt Towery is a former National Republican legislator of the year and author of Powerchicks: How Women Will Dominate America.
 
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Ron Paul is the cure...
America is very sick and Ron Paul is the cure that will help to cleanse Washington of all its germs.

Neo-Cons like that tool, Sean Hannity, stand opposed to Ron Paul simply because he's against sacrificing liberty for the sake of security. I sort of relate him to the prophet Jeremiah in the Old Testament... He speaks the truth, it isn't what others want to hear, so they turn against him.

Ron Paul '08

JACOBIN/NEOCON/CFR NATIONBUILDING!!!
Fact is...we are in the middle of ????
a recession and even if the stock market appears to be up it doesnt take into account the inflation rate or devalued dollar.

With all of this Nation Building and planting seeds of democracy campaign going on...we are basically through the war in Iraq and our military and contractors are undergoing a vast reconstruction in Iraq spending away the hard earned tax dollars of Americans whose jobs are being outsourced on the one hand while the Jacobin/Neocons/CFR tells us to go get retrained or go back to school to be nurses or computer programers while this same group is attempting to insource foreigners to fill those jobs too.

The Jacobin/Neocon/Cfr folks are out to destroy the middle class in this country and they would not feel guilty if there was a permanent slave labor class who were born into this caste system and could never get out of it.

This same group do not believe in individual rights but rather in collective rights that it is our moral obligation to give up our individual liberties for the good of the collective. The Bolsheviks tried something very similar in Russia when they came to power in 1917. Basically, these Jacobin/Neocon/Cfr folks are radical liberals who have highjacked the Republican party and who are now trying to redefine the term Conservative. They are liberal Marxists

JACOBIN/NEOCON/CFR NATIONBUILDING!!!
Fact is...we are in the middle of ????
a recession and even if the stock market appears to be up it doesnt take into account the inflation rate or devalued dollar.

With all of this Nation Building and planting seeds of democracy campaign going on...we are basically through the war in Iraq and our military and contractors are undergoing a vast reconstruction in Iraq spending away the hard earned tax dollars of Americans whose jobs are being outsourced on the one hand while the Jacobin/Neocons/CFR tells us to go get retrained or go back to school to be nurses or computer programers while this same group is attempting to insource foreigners to fill those jobs too.

The Jacobin/Neocon/Cfr folks are out to destroy the middle class in this country and they would not feel guilty if there was a permanent slave labor class who were born into this caste system and could never get out of it.

This same group do not believe in individual rights but rather in collective rights that it is our moral obligation to give up our individual liberties for the good of the collective. The Bolsheviks tried something very similar in Russia when they came to power in 1917. Basically, these Jacobin/Neocon/Cfr folks are radical liberals who have highjacked the Republican party and who are now trying to redefine the term Conservative. They are liberal Marxists

Good Post by Carlos on Nation Building!
Hold on true believers...its gonna be a bumpy ride!!!

Carlos writes: Friday, November, 23, 2007 12:42 PM
What Iraq War?
There is no 'War' going on in Iraq, this is called Nation Building. I agree with the poster who said the Iraq war was won 4 years ago....its been over and done with and its time to go home! The american people did not agree to engage in Nation Building. It irks me so much when people call this a war, over and over. War is about destroying and killing an enemy till they are defeated and surrender. Its about military objectives, not political. Ron Paul is not against war, he is against nation building. He is not a pacificst, he just believes it should be a last resort and if its inevitable, he would wage it. Whenever a neocon tries to point to a victory or 'good news' out of Iraq, its usually something about a school being built. When did War become about that?! Its nation building people. This is whats going on in Iraq:

General: How goes the battle on the northern front, colonel?

Colonel: Great sir! I'm happy to report we've got three schools built, two mosques repaired, and plumbing fixed in four city blocks!

General: Excellent work, we'll build our way to victory before long!

Colonel: Only one setback today, sir. Seems some ungrateful citizens were firing upon a platoon from an apartment building and rather than calling on the local autorities to arrest them the lieutenant ordered his men to return fire and storm the complex. A handful of civilians were killed in the crossfire.

General: Oh this is terrible!

Colonel: I know sir, but don't worry. I've had the lietenant and his men arrested and they will be court marshalled shortly.


JS: But, I still don't think
paul has a chance... Just as I don't think that Hunter or Tancredo HAVE A CHANCE, BASED on the NUMBERS at this POINT.

Be back later.

(And, I sill can not vote for him because I think his foreign policy is suicide!)








JS: I'm headed out for dinner...

Be back later tonight.




JS: So, you admit I had a point!!!
Being "fair" is what is getting questioned here when referring to "stealing" the election from Ron Paul.

THAT'T what I was questioning when I mentioned the number of paulists who referred to the nomination being "stolen" etc.


Thank you!




JS: Yes, I do admit that I noticed that.

I also admit that these last exchanges were NOT a "spitting contest" which is an improvement.

I would just be helpful if you understood that my whole point has been, in spite of what I think about paul's foreign policy, that I don't see, based on polls (which are the only things we have to go on at this point) how he has the momentum that you and the other paulists see.

Personally, my first choices would be Thompson and/or Hunter (and Tancredo) but they don't have any traction either. Basically, at this point, they're in the same boat, or tier, as ron paul.

My whole point, at this time, is to be realistic and open based on the numbers and traction.

A vote for Rudy, however, wouldn't be much different from a vote for HELLary. :-( IMO









JS: It is absolutely beyond me

how or why you seem to think you "know" what I think or believe, except what I've posted.... and you've admitted that you even got some of THAT wrong.

Trust me when I tell you, YOU DON'T!!!

And, given the number of things that you've posted about me that you "thought" or "assumed" to know, it might be a good thing for YOU to back off just a little.

And I thoroughly resent that you and the other paulists talk down, not just to me, but anyone who doesn't agree with paul and his supporters.

The fact is, we're very bright and for the most part well educated people, so it would be just nice if you gave us at least that much credit!





Ghouliani = Hillary in heels
JackShiite writes:
"But, as many posters here have said, they would rather have a Hillary win. Just shows where their priorities are."
Saturday, November, 24, 2007 4:10 PM

Yup. The NeoClowns have not yet begun to fight. If you think they're nasty now, just wait until Paul wins NH. They will not turn the party machinery back over to the paleos -- not without an all-out, bloody war. That the NeoScum would prefer a President Hillary to losing control of the Republican party ought to be a wakeup call to all fence-sitters.

JS: I've been much more respectful?

Right! Take another look at the Medved blog... I never got "hot under the collar" until I'd been insulted countless times... Thank you very much!

You and your paulists were nothing but rude and despicable. The names I was called on the blog were unconscionable, in spite of the fact that I stated more than once that I agreed with paul domestically.

And, I really don't care what you think, and what's palatable to you or not... All I've done is look at the numbers and tried to be realistic about how things seem to be shaping up... regardless of what I like and don't like.

I suggest you try to do the same!






JS: So, we just ignore all the lies

you’ve told about me?

Paul is on the Republican ticket… who on the demo ticket is ahead has nothing to do with anything at this point. And there is no way to tell that the demos are losing at this point.

Right now the ONLY issue is who is leading on the Republican ticket, and who will probably get the Republican nomination, and right now… as of 11/21/07 it does not appear as though paul has the numbers to do that! It’s SIMPLE!!!

BUT, just so you get at least ONE FACT right! In spite of the fact that ALL the paulists called me a “ron paul HATER, even though I stated NUMEROUS TIMES that I agreed with much of his domestic policy, I totally disagreed with his foreign policy.

Now, how ANY RATIONAL, REASONABLE, INTELLIGENT person can assume that I am a paul HATER because I disagree with his foreign policy is beyond me.

I have even been very specific as to WHY I disagree with paul’s foreign policy, and it’s perfectly okay if you don’t agree. I disagree with Giuliani and Romney on a number of issues, but that doesn’t mean I hate them. But the interesting thing is, it appears that there are a lot more people who agree with Giuliani and Romney than I do…

But, let me be very, very clear... I really don't care what you think about who I ultimately decide to vote for. It makes no difference to me. I will vote for whomever I wish..





NeoClown College not teaching debate?
JackShiite,

It's also interesting that, for a while after the derState.com ban, googling "redstate" would yield more hits on websites talking about the Paul ban than hits on derState itself. For a while, derState was actually listed 2 or 3 pages back in search results -- which probably indicates a significant loss in relative traffic, even while it was experiencing a boost in name recognition. What a bungle that was for them. While on the topic, I do have to point out that, as neoclown oriented as this site is, at least it hasn't yet traveled the derState road.

And, yes, it certainly is funny that "Paulites" get libeled as "bots," "tards," "moron," and "loons" by the same idiots who can't defend themselves rhetorically, and need to resort to silencing their opposition to save face. What a joke.

JS Part 3

I never claimed that he didn't win the majority of strawpolls,” What I said was they were “straw polls” and not to be taken as seriously as national polls.

” I really only ever see her talking on either Romney or Paul threads. Defending Romney on the fore and attacking Paul on the latter.”

Really? Would you like to show me what Romney threads you’ve seen me posting and defending Romney??? That would be nice, since I’m *NOT* a Romney supporter (and before you get your knickers in a bunch, it has NOTHING to do with Romney being a Mormon.)

”Somehow she finds the belief that those that have accumulated power in the corrupted 2 party system would fight against giving up that power to be tin-foil hatted nuttiness. Well, unless we were talking about the dems. Then, it's just common sense.”

That is a very interesting accusation! I have no clue how or where you came up with that.

”… cut the crap…” Exactly what crap might you be referring? “… be respectful.” Exactly how was my last post not respectful?.

“Nobody has any problem that you have a DIFFERENT opinion…” Oh, but you do!!! You and the other paulists have a huge problem with anyone who does not share your opinion, right down the line.

“…. you claim such high authority over it and then play fast and loose with the facts.”

Huh! Well, if you consider national poll numbers ad playing “fast and loose with facts” then you have a real problem… A VERY REAL PROBLEM!!!!

How about YOU get YOUR fact straight and stop exaggerating and lying about me and what I say. That would be an excellent start!


JS: Part 2

And, it makes no sense, what so ever, that the troops in Iraq who don’t want to come home until the job is done (because they believe in what they’re doing in Iraq) would be donating so much to the one candidate on the Republican ticket who wants to bring them home IMMEDIATELY.

Of course, I have no clue what you’re talking about with “conspiracy” but again, that is typical… you often make so sense, what so ever, especially when you have no place to go with my posts.

“She has repeatedly claimed Ron Paul only has ‘7 supporters’"

Actually, I said, in a humorous tone, that he had 917 supporters…. Not sure why you short changed him by 910. :-)

And I NEVER said that he “’would never climb in the polls beyond 1%’ (even at a time he was getting 4%.)”

JS: “Yeah well” is right! You don't

like the polls that don't support liberty's assertion that paul is the ONLY ONE who can beat HELLary, so you go head long into name calling and false accusations about me.

That's called "spinning" and dodging the facts!!

“Anne doesn't deal in facts very well.” Well, those poll numbers are “facts” as of 11/21/07. You don’t like them, I take it, but that’s what they are! Check it out and deal!

http://www.usaelectionpolls.com/2008/

Going a little over the edge, are we...” She claims with absolute authority …” Really???

What I said was:

1) there was NO VERIFICATION of employer on the donation card, and

2) from what I’ve heard from the troops I’m in contact with in Iraq, paul isn’t even on anyone’s radar.

Liberty: First, , there are probably

thousands of paul supporter posts... and I can only go through so many in a given period of time.

But, please believe me when I tell you that I did not make it up.. There are a number ... maybe not 10s or 20s, but enough posts that used the terms "stolen" or "deprived" or “denied” paul of his nomination, that they caught my attention.

Second, I have absolutely NO CLUE on what you base your statement that paul is the only one who could beat HELLary.

“He appeals to the small government Goldwater-wing of the Republican party and all those who have previously jumped the GOP ship, he appeals to those Democrats who see that only Paul will truly end the war in Iraq.”


As of 11/21 the numbers are not reflecting that in the least.

Republican Candidate FL IA
Rudy Giuliani 27.0 13.0
John McCain 10.0 6.0
Fred Thompson 16.0 15.0
Mitt Romney 19.0 28.0
Mike Huckabee 9.0 24.0
Ron Paul 5.0 6.0




Anne
Someone stating that Paul would rout Hillary in the general election, is quite different than your claim that some of Paul's supporters are saying that the nomination will be stolen from him.

Paul WOULD slaughter Hillary in a general election and he is the only Republican running who could do so. He appeals to the small government Goldwater-wing of the Republican party and all those who have previously jumped the GOP ship, he appeals to those Democrats who see that only Paul will truly end the war in Iraq. Not to mention the fact that he appeals to Americans across the board who are very concerned with our sinking dollar, the illegal alien invasion of our country, the assault on gun rights, the big government managed trade agreements that are literally encouraging our jobs and industry to dry up, the assault on our civil rights, those who are sick and tired of our public servants selling out our country to the UN and other international organizations, etc.

Yes, it would indeed be a rout in the general election.

I don't want Hillary as our next President. Do you?

Not exactly what you made it out to be
Anne writes:
"I don't think Paul would be hugely routed by Hillary (I think he would clean her clock). But I'm afraid the GOP will do what it can to keep him from the nom."
Saturday, November, 24, 2007 8:45 AM

I don't see where this comment says that the "nomination is already Paul's and has been stolen from him." You may just need an interpreter. This poster appears to be stating a concern that Paul's campaign will be marginalized by a party establishment that feels threatened by his candidacy.

Since the neoclowns are currently at the party's helm, and since Paul seeks to cast them out of the temple (to waterboard a metaphor), exactly what is it about that concern that you find irrational? ...especially in light of the fact that he has been systematically and sequentially ignored, ridiculed, and attacked by such prominent neoclown instruments as 'National(socialist)Review' and Faux Nuze... not to mention nearly every party hack who has a titularly "conservative" talkshow or column...

reannnthem
No, Dr. Paul wants to do nothing of the sort. For some reason, you seem to think that occupying foreign countries is how we keep ourselves non-isolated? Do I have that correct? Military interventionism isn't the only way to engage with other countries.

Why do you believe it is isolationist to stop the current practice of occupying foreign countries and instead start talking to them and trading with them? To me, it seems exactly the opposite of isolationism.

As an aside, I believe in a quite strong defense and I want our military to be used for just that. Not to police the world and certainly not to enforce UN sanctions. For our OWN national defense!

What is Napolitano's take on the current
... state of affairs?

http://www.reason.com/news/show/123496.html

If you only read one thing, read this interview.

dr crank
wants to isolate our Country, disable our military, and eliminate our intelligence agencies.

Then he plans to watch as the muslims and communists divide up the planet.

Then when we truly stand alone...THEN we can become concerned.

Dr crank is a dangerous quack.

The RP Factor
is fascinating. The 2 biggest obstacles to his winning the nomination are that he has no high-level power base, no powerful people want him to win, and second, he does not have a presidential personality/image. He is the longest of long shots, however if he wins the nomination i will vote for him. He will face mountains of resistance to most of his ideas, even those with merit will be difficult to implement. Foreign events will nullify his stated preferences as to foreign policy. Rather than winning the nomination, early strong showings would move more popular candidates in his direction, which i would take as a positive event.

Hey JS: How about THIS for starters?
Goldberg's column....

Tasmanian Jedi writes: Wednesday, November, 21, 2007 9:09 PM
Thanks, Jonah, you made my case for me
Huckabee/Paul '08!

I don't think Paul would be hugely routed by Hillary (I think he would clean her clock). But I'm afraid the GOP will do what it can to keep him from the nom.

*******************************************
There are more... but it will take some time to go back and find them. I believe there are more on Medved's blog.




I'm thrilled to see Ron Paul
being talked about here. He has as much chance
of winning an election as Goldwater did. But he
will siphon off votes from other Republicans.

AfricanAmericans4Paul: Thank you for

you're effort. I really do appreciate it, but it really didn't answer...

Over the past weeks and months there have been some paulists who have indeed used the terms "stolen the nomination" and "denied him the nomination" and I am just trying to figure out how any supporter of any candidate could rationalize that notion.

There is no doubt that everyone thinks his/her candidate "SHOULD" get the nomination, but that's not the same thing as believing that if your candidate doesn't get the nominiation that it was stolen or he'd been denied...


Everyone beats around the bush
We all know this:

Bush and the neo-con dominated power center of the Republican party have drastically mismanaged the war issue. Americans are NOT against the war as a legitimate response to international terrorism on our soil. Nor are they against a strong posture of defense against real threats to our interests overseas. Unfortunately, the Republican party can't argue that line with a straight face anymore, as many have tried to do here in asserting Ron Paul's inadequacies.

Americans are strongly and overwhelmingly against the use of that war to (1) aggrandize the oil corporations and military contractors with billions of tax dollars (2) initiate long-term, complex, bloody occupations of countries that just don't matter that much to us (3) reduce personal liberties and enlarge the domestic police powers of the government while mounting unsustainable fear campaigns (4) use torture as an arm of American policy. Take away all the above abuses and the war policy still holds political traction. But you can't just take them away - they're done deals.

America - and especially the conservative movement - needs a fixit man. The Bush administration could not have done a better job of giving the Democrats a winning issue with their mismanagement of the war. Ron Paul is the only Republican who can come clean with Americans, admit the mistakes we all see, and get on with a sane political life after neo-conservatism.

Paul Wins Nomination!
I can't speak for all Paul supporters, Annie, but I don't know of anyone claiming that the nomination "belongs" to Dr. Paul. That established, there are probably a variety of reasons that many of us feel the nomination SHOULD go to him:

1) His views represent traditional conservative values better than any other candidate running.

2) His platform wasn't focus-grouped together for him by his campaign, but represents his long held ideals of personal liberty. Therefore, he is less likely than the other candidates to "lose his way" once in office.

3) He has the best chance of all Republican candidates of attracting independent, third party, and Democrat voters in the general election -- which makes him the most viable general election candidate the party could put forward.

Those are some reasons that he SHOULD win, but I'm not sure that it addresses you question. I believe that what you're responding to is the feeling common to many Paul supporters that the opportunity to fairly compete for the nomination is being denied Dr. Paul, by a party establishment that has strayed from traditional conservatism, become comfortable with the status quo, and is fearful of losing its grip on power (which is what a Paul presidency would mean to the neoclowns).



Who is REALLY hurting the party?
Matt Towery wrote:"I will suggest that Paul may fatally damage several potential candidates, and perhaps the entire Republican Party,"

I would suggest to you that it is in fact the leaders of the Republican Party that have done the fatal damage. Rep. Paul's very vocal backing, along with the Libertarian leaning conservatives that have drifted away over the years, represent the difference between reconstructing a viable party and having it simply coming apart at the seams. Instead of acknowledging the Paul contingent as being a genuine part of the conservative coalition, they have driven those very people away from the party with kicks, slaps and ridicule. To say that there are some hard feelings at this point is obvious, but the party elite dismiss Paul's supporters at their peril. On top of what is a failed Republican presidency in many American's opinion, loss of the old libertarian leaning Republican segment may very well cripple the party. All the talk of a third party run being a threat is dishonest. For many the real damage has already been done.

Not going to be a 3rd party candidate
Those who fear a Ron Paul 3rd party candidacy have failed to notice two things: First, he has repeatedly said that if he fails to win the GOP nomination, he will not run on a 3rd party ticket. Secondly, unlike every other candidate, Ron Paul doesn't lie. When Hillary denied presidential aspirations, anybody with half a brain knew she was lying. When Ron Paul says he won't, he won't. It's called credibility. He has it because he has earned it. The others haven't, so they don't. You never know whether to believe them. You know you can always believe the good doctor.

Approx. 8hrs. ago I asked a question....

and so far it has not been addressed.

The question was... how and why the paul supporters "assume" that the nomination is paul's?

I keep seeing posts saying that the Republican Party will "steal" or "deprive" paul of his nomination.

I'm not sure how anyone can presume that the nomination actually belongs to any one candidate at this point.






NeoCon Reading List:
Ryan01 writes:
"More people should read ['THE UNITED STATES PROGRAM FOR GENERAL AND COMPLETE DISARMAMENT IN A PEACEFUL WORLD'] and consider it in today's light."
Friday, November, 23, 2007 3:03 PM

It sure opened my eyes.

On a different note, isn't it interesting that we were told early on that we should tolerate/ignore Rudy's socialist tendencies, because "he can take votes away from Hillary." However, once Ron Paul starts emerging as a true contender, we are told that we should reject him, because "his Constitutionalism/libertarian leanings are out of vogue with the current party mainstream," even though polls indicate that he has the best chance of any Republican contender of beating Hillary, and attracting independent, third party, and Democrat votes -- which is exactly how Reagan, who was similarly demonized by the Bush wing of the party, won in 1980. Dosen't anyone else recall the epithets "Reaganites" (used to disparagingly describe Reagan's "fanatical" supporters), "Reaganomics" and "voodoo economics" (used by Bush to characterize Reagan's proposed fiscal policies), and "Reagan Democrats" (used to imply that "Reaganites" weren't really Republicans)?

"If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals -- if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is." -Ronald Reagan

AfricanAmericans4Paul
I got a copy of the "THE UNITED STATES PROGRAM FOR GENERAL AND COMPLETE DISARMAMENT IN A PEACEFUL WORLD" from years back. We can see they have extensively updated it over the years. More people should read this and consider it in today's light.

Perpetual War for Perpetual Pieces
Here's a challenge for NeoClown Republicans: read the following state department document (presented by JFK to the UN general assembly back in 1961), and tell me whether you recognize the so-called "War on Terror" within it's pages. Tell me whether you still believe that goose-stepping around the globe under the auspices of UN authori-tay is reflective of traditional Republican virtues. Or, tell me whether you feel that you've been intellectually raped.

THE UNITED STATES PROGRAM FOR GENERAL AND COMPLETE DISARMAMENT IN A PEACEFUL WORLD: http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/arms/freedom_war.html

If you agree with that proposal (which you must, if you still support T.W.O.T.), then slap a "Freedom is Slavery" bumpersticker on your Toyota pickup, and ignore the irony.

Because gold holds value, dummy!
Tinsldr2 writes:
"The economy functions better when the FED injects or contracts the money supply in small increments depending on growth and credit rates."
Friday, November, 23, 2007 11:59 AM

Really? Between 1776 and 1913 the value of our money depreciated approximately 20%. Between 1913 (the birth of the Fed) and 1929 (the birth of this nation's greatest depression) the US experienced overall inflation of about 500%. Yet, somehow, the disaster was spun as a market failure, rather than a regulatory failure. The current US dollar is worth about $0.04 in 1913 terms. The Fed suhqs and deserves to die a slow, painful death. May I suggest we start by waterboarding Bernanke?

BTW, the original fixed value of the dollar to gold was 20 dollars = 1 ounce of gold. Have you checked the value of an ounce of gold against the dollar lately? And don't come back with that "trillions and trillions of USD" non-sense; it wouldn't be "trillions and trillions" if it weren't for the inflation of worthless paper currency. Remember the deutsche mark?

Grenada was NOT a pre-emptive strike
Tinsldr2 writes:
"Ron Paul like Pres Reagan??? NOT

President Reagan...invaded Grenada (oh my, without congressional approval OR Declaration of WAR I might add)!!! How is that like Rep Paul?"
Thursday, November, 22, 2007 10:17 AM

Grenada was much more like Afghanistan (a mission approved by Dr. Paul). Grenada was not a "pre-emptive" strike (like Iraq); it was a rescue mission. I was in the 82D ABN at the time; I remember. Mostly about 3 days of sniper fire and Cuban commies running away ("cakewalk"). Iraq is no Grenada.


And this improves Reagan's stature how?
Tinsldr2 writes:
"Ron Paul like Pres Reagan??? NOT

Pres Reagan ran against illegal Imigration but then comprimised and gave us an Amnesty Bill. Rep Paul?"
Thursday, November, 22, 2007 10:17 AM

If your point is that Dr. Paul is unlikely to flipflop on illegals, you're probably correct. Reagan also ran on a promise to abolish the DoE, another promise that he didn't fulfill. Are you just afraid that Ron Paul will actually keep Ron Reagan's promises???

Another Ron Paul Supporter here
I continually saddened by the GOP when I see that the majority of the party can't seem to figure out that Ron Paul is the only Conservative running for the White House this year.

How did the party get throw so far off course? How did socialists (neo-cons) ever dress themselves up as conservatives and get a hold of the reigns of this party?

The battle being set up is between Hillary and Giuliani...A socially liberal Democrat or a socially liberal "Republican". Take a step back, listen to what they each have to say and you'll be amazed at the echo effect that occurs. The only difference is that one prefers to wear a name tag with a Donkey on it and the other likes to sport an Elephant.

And didn't we already see this race? Last time I checked Hillary beat him for the Senator seat in New York and she wasn't even from the area. What makes the GOP think that he can win the race this time around?

Do yourselves a favor and look into Ron Paul. We haven't had a perfect storm type of candidate come around for decades and its ridiculous that so far the majority hasn't woken up to the good news he represents.

http://www.ronpaul2008.com

""May your chains rest lightly upon you"
Jakota writes:
"Why is it everytime I hear Ron Paul speak at a debate I first begin to laugh and then tremble at the thought of this guy running this country."
Thursday, November, 22, 2007 5:47 AM

Because you think your chains are charm bracelets?

To Liberty On FED and Gold Standard
What do I have against Gold Standard? Well for one it is meaningless. We have a 13 TRILLION dollar GDP. That is a lot of gold to try and store. And what happens when the Chineese (or Bill Gates) want GOLD for their Dollars?

Money is worth what you will give me for it. Not an amount of a tradable comodity thats source is not even finite.

The economy functions better when the FED injects or contracts the money supply in small increments depending on growth and credit rates.

As of 0ct 31 2007 DOW Jones is up over 17% year to date. Dow Jones up 13% last 5 years. and 8% last ten years
http://djindexes.com/mdsidx/index.cfm?event=showAvgStats

Unemployment is VERY low, Mortgage rates are Low, overall economy is healthy.
Why, would I want a dollar backed by gold? What is the benifit? NONE

NO MAJOR CURRENCY IN THE WORLD IS BACKED BY GOLD! Why? BECAUSE IT IS NOT 1790!!

Economic news Flash,,,, MARKETS FLUCTUATE!! you want to invest in gold then do so. Want to go to AZ and mine gold? Do so. Gold is not a bad investment per se but MARKETS (TO INCLUDE GOLD)FLUCTUATE!

If ya want read the blog and leave a message if you have a reason why we should be on gold standard today then i will listen but you better bring a valid reason cause so far No one on TH has made a case for the gold standard.

Tinsldr2@yahoo.com

Having read this thread
The paulbots have once again stepped in and destroyed what started out being a very good discussion. Somewhere along the line, if the sensible and informed Paul supporters don't step up and assert themselves over the chrismathews and panchos, Ron Paul has nowhere to go but down. The level of obtuseness, misinformation and flawed logic is astounding. Having a Masters in international finance and 25+ years of experience in these matters, I don't believe chrismathews has a masters in anything. You must be an economist for a mutual fund or some other interest looking for an economist willing to whore himself out. The prices of all commodities are skyrocketing right now because all sources are under threat from hostile forces while the world economy's growth rate has accelerated. These are capital intensive industries where infrastructure takes longer to put in place than demand requires. Having a Saddam Hussein control most of the major oil supply is not a viable alternative to the Iraq war. The other thing is that we are now in a post-peak oil situation. We are on the declining side of the curve where supply cannot meet demand. Oil prices have no where to go but up from here on out. That's just the way it is. You can argue what came first, the chicken or the egg, but we are fighting in the ME BECAUSE of the severity of the threat of shortage and what it would do to the world economy. It's a small war to avert a world war. We are going to fight it even if Ron Paul becomes president (which won't happen).

A Contemporary American Folk Hero
Ron Paul has shown no indication he would run as a third-party candidate. And as much as I want to vote for him next November, he would be wise to avoid such a move. If Ron Paul doesn't get the GOP nomination, he will still be able to return to his seat in the House of Representatives as arguably the most popular member of that body since Davy Crockett. He will also be at the center of a grassroots political movement that is only beginning to experience its own strength. Paul would be able to use his popularity as a "bully pulpit" to influence both legislative and popular opinion.
If Ron Paul ran as a third-party candidate and didn't win outright, he would surely be blamed for the outcome. And that's a fate I wouldn't wish on anyone.

bejeezus
The old "left-right" template no longer works. Neither of the two sides abide by the Constitution. They want to treat it like they were in a cafateria and pick the sections they like and ignore those they don't. A more useful template would be you either support the Constitution in total or you don't.

Only roughly five congressmen pass this test and none of the senators would.

Besides Paul
are there any other candidates Dem or Rep, that are not lawyers? Just the facts please.

Ron Paul will represent me for a change
I'm sick-and-tired of divisive Left-Right political thinking. Somewhere along the line I got the impression this was supposed to be a nation of laws, not men.

But as we've seen... the Constitution has been written over and around to obfuscate its intent... and to corrupt its meaning... for effective governance... to even work properly.

And both political party candidates are beholden to elitists who generally don't represent me at all - because frankly, I don't enjoy getting my pockets picked... or my property and privacy violated... without my permission.

I hate welfare - especially corporate welfare that rewards multi-nationalists. I hate socialism and those who promote the common good over the rights of individuals.

Especially do I hate crony capitalists and back-slapping politicians who wallow around in the same muddy love puddle swapping spit - it's beyond disgusting!

But the ultimate tyranny I hate is of the banking monopoly... with their counterfeit currency... secretive collusion with foreigners who do not respect America's sovereignty... and phony intellectual credentials... for posing themselves as good-and-decent corporate citizens.

Besides, I'm a lover, not a fighter - which is why my vote's going to Ron Paul.

No thank you, but I don't give two cents for what anyone else thinks - including you.

The Ron Paul Factor
You may not like the messenger but he's got the best message. He truly believes in small (not just smaller) government, less spending, lower taxes and a more sane foreign policy. What is wrong with that message? Is any other candidate (Republican or Democrat) saying the same thing?

Liberty: "You cannot speak for Barry
Goldwater, Sr., as much as you would like to believe you can."

Huh! Actually, I wasn't "speaking for" Goldwater, I was QUOTING him. Big difference!

What hubris! "I really want my country back. Don't you folks?" How very arrogant and pretentious to question anyone’s patriotism and love of country because they disagree with Paul on certain issues… such as foreign policy.

And here’s one more. No less than a half a dozen times that I recall, paul supporters have asserted that IF paul does not get the nomination that it was stolen from him, or the Republican Party deprived him of the nomination.

I would just like to know exactly how and why the paul supporters can be so presumptuous as to assume the nomination is paul’s to begin with. The nomination does NOT belong to paul any more than it belongs to Rudy, Mitt, or Fred, or any of the candidates on the ticket.

And, please to not answer with a long diatribe. If you respond, please just address my points.





Anne
You cannot speak for Barry Goldwater, Sr., as much as you would like to believe you can.

The fact is that his son, Barry Goldwater, Jr. has endorsed Dr. Paul. Paul is the closest thing we have had to Barry Goldwater, since Barry Goldwater himself. In fact, if you read the speech that Ronald Reagan gave for Barry Goldwater in '64, and which was written by Goldwater's speechwriters, you think that you are reading Dr. Paul's speeches. The only difference is that Dr. Paul does not have speechwriters. He writes them all himself. :)

If people want to find out more about this man, go here and start reading. You will also find links to several of his books here. All but his latest one is available as a free download.
http://www.RonPaulLibrary.org

You can also listen to some of his radio interviews, here:
http://www.RonPaulaudio.com
Note: This website arranges the interviews from the oldest to the newest. So, if you want to hear the newer ones, you'll have to scroll down a bit.
I personally find the more indepth ones about the economy, to be the most interesting.

I really want my country back. Don't you folks?

Tinsldr2
Do you *like* seeing the value of the U.S. dollar go down and down and down? Have you checked it out lately? Go to http://www.stockcharts.com and enter $USD in the ticker symbol window. After you're done looking at how our dollar is tanking, enter $GOLD in the ticker symbol window.

Then, you mention the Federal Reserve and your apparent love for it. Do you realize how much the value of our dollar has decreased since the Federal Reserve Act was passed? Our dollar is worth FOUR CENTS of what it used to be worth. FOUR CENTS!

Do you listen closely when Bernanke is questioned by say the House Cmte for Banking? Have you heard him talk about "injecting liquidity"? What that means is the FED is in essence printing money out of thin air and putting it in circulation. What happens when there is MORE of something? It makes the value of everything we hold, go down. This is exactly where inflation comes from. The very same thing happens when the FED lowers the interest rate. The money supply is increased.

Paul questioning Bernanke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAwvlDJgJbM
Paul's summary statement:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul292.html

Now, what exactly troubles you about having our dollar backed by a precious metal? Sounds pretty darn good to me. I remember a day when our country actually had gold in Fort Knox to backup the dollar.

Bin-Laden
Our presence in Iraq and Afghanistan is not going to capture bin-Laden, because he is in Pakistan.

Have we forgotten?

to Gunner:
"Yo, rhys
And you believe Osama? Like you believe any wannabee dictator or caliph? Just like you would have believed Hitler when he said the Sudetenland was his last territorial interest in Europe? You believe a devout Mohammedan whose "scriptures" AUTHORIZE him to lie to any non-Mohammedan?

I find that distressing." - Gunner

What proof may be provided to indicate that we are significantly weakening al-Qaeda with our military presence in Iraq and Afganistan?

What metric exists for measuring our success or failure in the War on Terror?

Will capturing and/or killing Osama bin-Laden free us from the threat of future terrorist attacks?

What actions on our part, besides spending an estimated 500 billion dollars per year in perpetuity, will likely decrease the threat of future terrorist attacks here in the US?

I'll tell you what's distressing - despite the fact that nobody can provide theoretically satisfactory answers to these questions, some people advocate throwing other people's money away in an attempt to solve the problems that give rise to these questions.

Ron Paul
It is heartening to see many thoughtful Ron Paul supporters commenting, and it gives me a smile to see clever arguments of all kinds aimed at persuading readers to see the good in Dr. Paul.

The substantial portion of Republicans which want to believe the Iraq war was not a mistake may find Rep. Paul's passion (or what they might call stridency) on the matter off-putting. But without a doubt, Dr. Paul's personality is a great asset to his candidacy - people are attracted to his honesty, his humility and the clarity of his rhetoric. He is also by far the quickest on his feet in a debate format. If Ron Paul were to get the nomination, six months of America seeing him stacked up against Hillary Clinton would bode well for his election. Americans would have the choice of a free economy vs the nanny-state and the American Republic vs. the American Empire. Both friend and foe alike think that Ron Paul believes what he says, and if within his power, would act on those beliefs. How about a president who would secure American borders as a priority over doling out foreign aid?

JackShiite and Ron Paul
jack,

You said " If you continue to misrepresent his positions on foreign policy instead of arguing them on their merits, one can only assume you REALLY have a problem with him somewhere else. Why don't you just tell us what that "something else" is? Maybe, because THAT position will be unpopular."

I wrote an entire BLOG about reasons AGAINST his positions:

I Think we are right to be in IRaq and AFGHAN

he wants to lessen the power of FBI and CIA

he wants to reverse PAtriot and Prtect America act
He wants to return to gold Standard and Wants to do away with FED Reserve

Rep Paul introduced the We the People Act, which would have removed from the jurisdiction of federal courts "any claim based upon the right of privacy,

Thats a start of why I dont like him. I will vote for him if he wins the Republican Primary of course but I dont support him.
I wrote a blog on each of the positions listed above cause cant argue them here because of space

Tinsldr2@yahoo.com



Retro Republican
Like many of Ron Paul's supporters, I am a retro republican. Voted R since Nixon. Even voted for the "decider" (God forgive me). The reason I support Ron Paul: Because when I come home from the polling place next February, I won't feel as though I need a shower to be clean.

http://www.teaparty07.com

On December 16th, be a part of making Ron Paul the $6 million dollar man.

Sam: No, and hell NO! :-)
.

Barry Goldwater would NOT have agreed

with paul...

"If I had inherited the mess that Johnson got into, I would have said to North Vietnam, by dropping leaflets out of B-52s, 'You quit the war in three days or the next time these babies come over there going to drop some big bombs on you.' And I'd make a swamp out of North Vietnam ... I'd rather kill a hell of a lot of North Vietnamese than one American and we've lost enough of them."



Barry Goldwater, Jr. endorses Ron Paul
November 16, 2007 10:16 am EST

ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA—Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul today gained a public endorsement from Barry M. Goldwater, Jr.

“America is at a crossroads,” said Mr. Goldwater. “We have begun to stray from our traditions and must get back to what has made us the greatest nation on earth or we will lose much of the freedom we hold dear. Ron Paul stands above all of the other candidates in his commitment to liberty and to America.”

“Leading America is difficult, and I know Ron Paul is the man for the job,” he added.

Mr. Goldwater is the son of the late former Republican presidential candidate and Arizona Senator Barry Goldwater. Barry Goldwater, Jr. served in the House of Representatives for six terms with Texas Congressman Paul, and is currently on the Board of Directors of the Goldwater Institute. After representing northern Los Angeles County in Washington, D.C. for 14 years, Mr. Goldwater retired from politics in 1983 to pursue a successful career in business and humanitarian ventures.

“The Ron Paul campaign is exceptionally honored by Mr. Goldwater’s endorsement,” said Paul campaign manager Lew Moore. “Dr. Paul and Congressman Goldwater fought together in the Congress for the ideals of limited constitutional government that Mr. Goldwater’s father so tirelessly advocated. The Goldwaters have left an indelible mark on the Republican Party, and theirs is a legacy which Congressman Paul will certainly inherit as President.”

The late Barry M. Goldwater, Sr. sparked the modern conservative movement and was the Republican Party presidential nominee in 1964.

Yo, rhys
And you believe Osama? Like you believe any wannabee dictator or caliph? Just like you would have believed Hitler when he said the Sudetenland was his last territorial interest in Europe? You believe a devout Mohammedan whose "scriptures" AUTHORIZE him to lie to any non-Mohammedan?

I find that distressing.

SteveL
If we were to back off from the ME, what rationale would al Qaeda have for attacking us?

As far as coming to the aid of our friends, Dr. Paul believes that it is up to Congress to declare war. He personally subscribes to Augustine's theory of "just war":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war

Did you know that Ron Paul actually introduced a bill to declare war on Iraq? Congress did not bite, preferring to delegate power to the President. Why? Because they did not wish to commit themselves, so they could later say that they did not agree with Bush's conduct of the war if they so desired, or that they were misinformed as to what the mission was.

Many people who are pro-Israel believe that our aid to Israel hurts her cause, by creating dependency upon the U.S. and by unduly influencing Israel's policies. Further reading here:

http://zionistsforronpaul.blogspot.com/

Did you know that our aid is actually corporate welfare for U.S. military contractors? That's right, Israel must spend the money with them.

Also, my understanding is that we are giving equivalent aid to friendly (to us, not necessarily Israel) countries in the ME. So all we are doing is adding to the general militarization of the region, to the benefit of guess who?

js: And you have the hubris to say

I'm disrespectful, etc.

"I hear a turkey calling me (no, it isn't you, Anne :)"


Amazing! Absolutely amazing!!!!

And you still don't get it when many many people continually comment on how despicable and reprehensible the paulists are.





Ron Paul is going to win

"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing."

-Dwight D. Eisenhower


Get on the right side of history so one day you can proudly proclaim to your FREE grandchildren that you supported an honorable man who brought America back from the brink.


HUNTER 2008


Securing the border and enforcing the law is the only way we get to keep our rule of law, our representative Republic, and our Constitution. We must elect a President who WILL secure the border and enforce the law. If citizenship becomes meaningless, this will no longer be the United States of America.

The so-called "top tier" will not get out the voters necessary for a GOP win. Increasing turnout is the key. Give people something to vote for. Not just the lesser of two evils. Won't work this time. People are fed up with the inundation of illegal aliens. They would come out in droves for the clear choice of D=amnesty or R=enforcement. They will stay home if they both equal amnesty.

There is a huge majority of American citizens waiting for someone to pledge to uphold the laws and secure the borders, let's not ignore them any more.

http://www.gohunter08.com

Osama bin-Laden speaks about 9/11
It is easy for us to provoke and bait this administration. All that we have to do is to send two mujahidin to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qaida, in order to make the generals race there and cause America to suffer human, economic, and political losses without their achieving anything of note other than some benefits for their private corporations. This is in addition to our having experience in using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers, as we, alongside the mujahidin, bled Russia for 10 years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat.

Every dollar of al-Qaeda defeated a million dollars, by the permission of Allah, besides the loss of a huge number of jobs. As for the economic deficit, it has reached record astronomical numbers estimated to total more than a trillion dollars. It is true that this shows that al-Qaeda has gained, but on the other hand it shows that the Bush administration has also gained, something that anyone who looks at the size of the contracts acquired by the shady Bush administration-linked mega-corporations, like Halliburton and its kind, will be convinced. And it all shows that the real loser is you. It is the American people and their economy. The darkness of black gold blurred Bush's vision and insight, and he gave priority to private interests over the public interests of America. So the war went ahead, the death toll rose, the American economy bled, and Bush became embroiled in the swamps of Iraq that threaten his future.

Your security is not in the hands of Bush or al-Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands. Any nation that does not attack us will not be attacked.

Osama bin-Laden speaks about 9/11
During those crucial moments, my mind was thinking about many things that are hard to describe. But they produced a feeling to refuse and reject injustice, and I had determination to punish the transgressors. And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon, it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same -- and that we had to destroy the towers in America so that they taste what we tasted, and they stop killing our women and children.

We found no difficulties in dealing with the Bush administration, because of the similarities of that administration and the regimes in our countries, half of which are run by the military and half of which are run by monarchs. And our experience is vast with them. And those two kinds are full of arrogance and taking money illegally.

The resemblance started when Bush Sr. visited the area, when some of our own were impressed by America and were hoping that the visits would affect and influence our countries. Then, what happened was that he was impressed by the monarchies and the military regimes, and he was jealous of them staying in power for tens of years, embezzling the public money without any accountability. And he moved the tyranny and suppression of freedom to his own country, and they called it the Patriot Act, under the disguise of fighting terrorism. And Bush, the father, found it good to install his children as governors and leaders.

CONTINUED...

Osama bin-Laden speaks about 9/11
You, the American people, I talk to you today about the best way to avoid another catastrophe and about war, its reasons and its consequences. And in that regard, I say to you that security is an important pillar of human life, and that free people do not compromise their security. Contrary to what Bush says and claims -- that we hate freedom --let him tell us then, "Why did we not attack Sweden?" It is known that those who hate freedom don't have souls with integrity, like the souls of those 19. May the mercy of God be upon them. We fought with you because we are free, and we don't put up with transgressions. We want to reclaim our nation. As you spoil our security, we will do so to you.

I wonder about you. Bush is still exercising confusion and misleading you and not telling you the true reason. Therefore, the motivations are still there for what happened to be repeated. And I will talk to you about the reason for those events, and I will be honest with you about the moments the decision was made so that you can ponder. And I tell you, God only knows, that we never had the intentions to destroy the towers.

But after the injustice was so much and we saw transgressions and the coalition between Americans and the Israelis against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it occurred to my mind that we deal with the towers. And these special events that directly and personally affected me go back to 1982 and what happened when America gave permission for Israel to invade Lebanon. And assistance was given by the American sixth fleet.

CONTINUED...

No third party run
Dr. Paul has made his intentions clear; he will not run as a third party candidate. He will run for his congressional seat again.

What will happen to the Paul supporters if he does not win the general election is anybody's guess. But Paul has sewn some seeds, and they are creating deep roots within the electorate. This is to the good; business-as-usual in Washington will have a tough time henceforth. That is because millions of people, previously disinterested and distrusting of the political scene in D.C. have leaped from their beds to support Dr. Paul and his message of freedom, small government, accountability and adherance to the Constitution. The cat is pretty much out of the bag now.

to BrianR:
"(Part 2) So, we go back to the original proposition: Do we fight them on their turf or ours? I vote for fighting it out on theirs."

We must distinguish who we are fighting. If we are fighting enemy combatants, we must get cooperation from the countries we wish to go into. If we are fighting nations we must declare war. It is irresponsible to assume we can just march into any country we want to fight any enemy we perceive.

Of course this means that we might get attacked here, but that is why we have a right to carry guns and a right to protect our property. Of course, when the government interfers with this right, as in the case of airlines and schools, there is increased danger of attack. But, there is no simple solution to terrorism, that is why it is an effective tactic. Over-reaction to terrorism is exactly the response terrorists want. We are playing into their hands when we react as if we are in terror - which is what we are doing.

SteveL
SteveL wrote:

"Ron Paul hasn't denounced radical Islam even once."

Ron Paul voted to invade Afghanistan and apprehend Usama Bin Laden, dead or alive. It works for me.

The Polls are Fixed!
Ron Paul is the top candidate. This site is against the US Constitution and Ron Paul.

America will prevail. Down with TownHall.com and down with the NEw World Order! Down with the North American Union. American sovereignty must be sustained!

rob
I visited your blog. You explain:

"Blowback is the idea that our interventions often come back to haunt us by producing the very thing they were intended to prevent."

Pretty much sums up the history of our CIA.


for chrismatthews
chrismatthews writes: "I challenge you to differentiate Paul's politics to that of Reagan's."

That's easy.

Reagan called the Soviet bloc an "evil empire" and predicted (correctly) that it would end up on the ash heap of history. For that he was vilified by the Left. But he was right.

Now when is Ron Paul going to say something comparable about the Islamist enemy we are fighting now? And I am NOT just referring to al-Qaeda. I am referring to the entire spectrum of radical Islam, including Ahmedinijad in Iran. Radical Islam is inimical to Western concepts of freedom and democracy, every bit as much as Communism was.

Reagan denounced Communism from every soapbox he could climb up on.

Ron Paul hasn't denounced radical Islam even once.

What has Ron Paul said he would actually DO in foreign policy about al-Qaeda, about Iran's building of a nuclear weapon, about the resurgent dictatorship in Russia, indeed about ANYTHING other than his single-minded obsession with Iraq?

for Jackson
Jackson writes: "Ron Paul opposes the 'Israel First' mentality which is the de-facto basis of US foreign policy. "

Now you Ron Paul supporters are contradicting yourselves.

How does turning our back on Israel, one of America's staunchest friends for 60 years, square with what that other Ron Paul supporter here, Panther Cap, said about "He [Paul] believes in a mighty military and in having real friendships among the nations, cultivated through trade and diplomacy."

Israel is already a real friend of America. Why do you want to change that? Why does Ron Paul want to change that?

If you don't want America to come to the defense of other nations, why are they going to be "friends" with us? Do you really expect them to give us intelligence tips on al-Qaeda, and help us stop an al-Qaeda attack on America, if Ron Paul makes it clear he won't come to THEIR defense if THEY are attacked?

for Pat
Pat writes: "He is, with the help of insiders, waking the American People, who have been indocrinated by FOX and CNN, to the true nature of US foreign policies"

The "true nature"??? What deep dark terrible secret about our foreign policy do you claim to have uncovered?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The overwhelming majority of Republicans don't think the United States Government is conducting an evil foreign policy. They may agree with some decisions and disagree with others, but on balance they are quite satisfied with the "true nature" of America as the world's mightiest superpower.

The only people who prattle about some sort of deep dark truth that has eluded the vast majority are people on the fringes: Ultra-right, ultra-left, conspiracy theorists, etc.

response to libertybob
I tried responding to libertybob, but my response was too long so I had to start my own blog. Here is the address for libertybob and anyone else who is interested my take, at least, on Ron Paul's foreign policy position:

http://cometcorner.townhall.com/Default.aspx


Ryan01
I hear you. I can listen to Michael Medved for about 20 seconds before looking for my barf bag.

Calabash
"Is it malice, or merely laziness and incompetence that occasion some to distort Ron Paul’s stances?"

I think it is more laziness, than anything else. Modern day "conservatives" can be every bit as bad as the "liberals" they complain about on talk radio. In short, talk radio to them is what tv is to the other when it comes to avoiding critical thinking and instead, emoting. It is a lot easier to believe something you heard for some of these people than to do some research.

I'm convince a number of folks who posted on this thread got their views by what some host said on the radio.

No Question About It
No question about it: The thought of Ron Paul gaining traction scares the bejeebees out of the elitist, entrenched power establishment—which accounts for the plethora of disinformation being disseminated about the man. If you’re going to criticize Paul, then, at least, present an honest picture of his actual position on the issues.

Though Paul is foursquare against the Iraq war, he is neither a hippie, nor a pacifist. His principles are 180 degrees out from those of organizations such as Code Pink. Paul is for a strong military—to be used for the defense of the USA. Is it malice, or merely laziness and incompetence that occasion some to distort Ron Paul’s stances? Are some people incapable of doing a simple Google search?

Intelligent people sometimes possess what some others consider odd mannerisms. Don’t shoot the messenger. Are we going to take away Itzhak Perlman’s fiddle? To me, Ron Paul’s hand gestures don’t even register on the scale of annoyance compared to Bill Clinton’s habit of banging on the podium when he speaks.

Imagine a president beholden to no special interests except the US Constitution.

Unable to sue firearms manufacturers, or conduct house-to-house gun confiscations, the BATFE is currently engaging in a “backdoor” assault on your 2nd Amendment rights by revoking FFLs and closing down gun dealerships left and right for petty clerical errors. (Google “Red’s Trading Post” for a good intro to the problem). Let’s see... We have “awesome haircut & good hand gestures” Mitt the squirrel hunter, who responds by form letters to inquiries about his position on the BATFE; we have Rudy, the historical gun-grabber; and we have Ron, who is the only candidate to receive an A+ rating with the Gun Owners of America. Which candidate might possibly be inclined to put an end to BATFE abuse?

As Americans, we deserve whom we vote for.

Claim
"Just defining the problem would take a few volumes never mind make it all fit on a bumper sticker, which is what people want, they want others to do their thinking for them and just give me the bottom line. That is why newspapers are written for 2nd graders and news is in 20 second sound bites."

It also explains most of talk radio.

"It just isn’t that simple."

You got that right! Which produces this:

"Iran is so close to nuclear capability it is scary and like it or not so was Saddam, it all was brought back to Syria so as not to be discovered."

Where's the evidence for this claim about Syria, other than what some neocons are claiming on the radio? The stuff about Iran I've already heard.

How Greenspan Got "Gold Fever"...
Tinsldr2 writes: Thursday, November, 22, 2007 10:17 AM
Ron Paul like Pres Reagan??? NOT

Pres Reagan nominated Allan Greenspan to the FED. Would Rep Paul have done so?"

Golly , Beave, I dunno. Let's ask 'im:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul236.html

Paul may be excellent conservative but..
How good are his leadership skills?

I compared him earlier to Kim Campbell, but have to revise--a more accurate comparison is to Deborah Grey (MP of Beaver River since 1988***), who is known to be quite well on party principles (Reform, Alliance, now Conservative) but not known for leadership skills.


***Grey won the seat originally in a by-election, after the incumbent MP (who had been reelected) passed on prior to being resworn-in--against that MP's widow.

Ron Paul is NOT a kook
He is a very smart man, he has integrity, and he has some interesting ideas. I like and agree with some of his basic philosophy.

Ron Paul is pro-life, he is a defender of the Constitution and fiscal responsibility. All things I agree with. He is anti-interventionist, which I agree with in theory, but I think he is wrong when it comes to the war on terror. I also don't think he has a chance to actually win the election.

However, if he runs as a third party candidate, I think he is just as likely to draw votes from Dems who want an anti-war alternative to Hillary, who is not really anti-war, as well as to the GOP. I am not sure he guarantees a Hillary win.

Maybe I'm wrong. I would prefer a President Paul to a President Clinton, but I would actually prefer a strong GOP candidate like Duncan Hunter. However, I can understand why many people like Ron Paul. I certainly don't want to insult him gratuitiously!

Good question Libertybob
It is easy to say no government, no taxes and no wars. rah. rah.

Here is the problem with isolationist in today’s crazy world. It is easy to say, we will just pick up our ball and bat and go home and refuse to play but that isn’t the way the world works. Just defining the problem would take a few volumes never mind make it all fit on a bumper sticker, which is what people want, they want others to do their thinking for them and just give me the bottom line. That is why newspapers are written for 2nd graders and news is in 20 second sound bites. It just isn’t that simple. Like it or not we just can’t go home and hope that nothing will happen for ever after, the meek might inherit the world but only after it has been destroyed. Iran is so close to nuclear capability it is scary and like it or not so was Saddam, it all was brought back to Syria so as not to be discovered.

I am about to state why I feel so strongly in my two big issues for the 2008 Presidency. If not checked, which I hope is not the case. Iran can supply small nuclear devices to radical groups. These can easily be brought into our country via our unprotected borders. The damage from these devices would be greater if ignited off the ground, but still would inflict major damage. Each of these devices would disable an entire large American city. It was thought because before GW that all our Presidents have been wimps that we would collapse after 9-11, it was a shock but a minor inconvenience that should have pissed off the country more than it did, but GW took all the right steps and has left Al-Queda regrouping and in capable at the moment to do us the kind of harm they would like. But only a temporary set back, soon they will strengthen and fully capable of pulling off the above mentioned mission.

With Ron Paul the nominee, I am afraid I would be forced to do something I haven’t done since 1972, vote Democratic or even worse not vote at all. Email me barrym@tds.net

Guiliani
For what it's worth, my wife was/is a big Bill Clinton fan, but she's actually leaning toward Rudy, so he may have more appeal than the TH crowd would like to believe.

Where's the Nuke?
Like I said, Saddam was intent on building one, I didn't say he had it yet. I gave you a reference. It was a very think book with lots and lots of very detailed information on Saddam's nuclear and WMD programs.

One can assert that we didn't find stock piles of arms marked "Weapons of Mass Destruction." However, there is no denying that Saddam had built and used them before. So, to suggest that he would not have built or used them, including a nuke, again strikes me as naive. Pollack asserts that our public focus on "conventional" WMD instead of the nukes was to prevent Saddam from knowing what we knew. And since all the intel that Bush saw and the congressional intel committees saw before the war is not public, there's no way to know for sure that Saddam's nuclear program wasn't part of the discussion.

So me, I'm one of those who believes it's better to be safe than sorry. Especially when dealing with the likes of Saddam.

Hit the libraray
Instead of the gym Brian. Then maybe you won't embarass yourself like you did today with your obvious lack of knowledge about the Monroe Doctrine.

RUDY????????????
Where the HELL did you get the idea I support Bald Hillary????

That's it. Bad to worse. Sayonara.


I think I'll hit the gym
My deadweights are more intelligent than what I'm finding here.

But I do want to thank all of you for giving me reason to re-think my lack of ridicule in the past for Paul and his supporters.


Yeah, Jack
Nothing else in the world happened other than Iraq.

Nope. No massive economic and construction boom in China, just to mention one thing, nothing at all.

You people are... man, I think even "pathetic" is too kind.


Gooooood, chris
Another educated fool.

And for the record
I have a masters in business and economics from the University of Texas.

Actually i will respond once more
You "don't have time for such silliness" is a weak canard for "My position has no merit and i can't defend it with any level of intelligence."


Sorry to add to the conversation, i just wanted to site a good example of my previous point.

Too much!
Okay, Paulbots, you're all correct!

The dollar's gone in the bucket, oil prices have shot through the ceiling -- and oh, btw, so have metal prices, but I guess that doesn't matter -- the stock market's falling, banks are suffering massive loan defaults, terrorists are setting off bombs in Israel, my car's due for a tuneup, and


IT'S ALL BECAUSE WE'RE IN IRAQ!

You nutjobs remind me of the Fred Phelps whack-jobs today.

And Just to Stir the Pot
I'm also Pro-Choice, a really popular position here at TH, and Dr. Paul is not. So I probably wouldn't vote for him anyway. So, unless the Libertarians get their head straight on the WOT, before election day, I may be reduced for voting for Rudy.

I made an honest effort
to put Paul's position out here in from a principled conservative standpoint.

Im going to call it quits however. I'm following the long held truism.

Never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Frankly, i think your displayed ignorance and belligerance on the issue involved are as much an endorsement for Dr. Paul as anything i could ever put across.

Thank you for your assistance and Happy Thanksgiving.

BrianR: Ummmmm? Hadn't thought of that

Wait, let me visualize....





hold on... still visualizing.....







Yup, that's a good one! :-) LOL






chris, you're super-glued on stupid
Enough with the lame direct tie of oil price to Iraq.

That simply flouts your abject ignorance not only of foreign affairs, but economics, too.

I don't have time for such silliness.

How do we account for a cheaper dollar?
Look at the value of the dollar pre-Iraq compared to the value of the dollar now. How do we account for that?

Yeah, Anne
But you gotta admit, the image of those geeks chained to a tree while it falls over and squashes them has a certain emotional appeal.

The pure irony, if nothing else.


chris and punchy
That's right, chrism, Marines were hostage, and the Barbary Pirates were demanding ransom and TRIBUTE FROM ALL MARITIME TRAFFIC. Which is how the Marines became hostages to begin with.

Oooops! You forgot that part!

Kinda important. American national self-interest. We went to war.


paunchy, glad the insult was noted; you got it the hard way: you earned it.

So, the Doctrine didn't establish a principle, eh?


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

BTW, you can also look at my answer to your fellow Pual-bot, chrism, above.


Ya know, I've often written how I admire the Paul supporters' dedication to their guy, and I never ridicule them.

But when you guys make these ludicrous "arguments"..... man, it gives me pause. You can't even admit there are areas where your guy's bubble is off the beam. EVERY candidate is off on at least something. The only guy I agree with 100% is... me!


BrianR: I HATE when you bring that up...

As Glenn Beck would say, "makes blood shoot out of my eyes....."

So, you think the tree huggers will rethink their position? (Not that it would help when we need it. Ten years from now, maybe...)

The answer is, "OF COURSE NOT!" They're still giving us a ration about the bugs and things when we're trying to get the damn wall built on our southern border.


Hey, thanks guys. Thanks a lot!!!!!






@ Brian R
You're not a conservative, conservatives are in essence constitutionalists. I personally don't care what you call yourself but someone should at least disabuse you of your misnomer.

As i pointed out earlier, oil was a lot cheaper pre-Iraq. You say that's coincidence i guess? But haven't bothered to educate me on why, you just smugly state it, as if you've impressed anyone with the accuracy of your analysis but yourself.

Why is gas $3 per gallon now, and why was it $1 per gallon prior to Iraq? I can't wait to hear the "non-simplistic" view.

@ Liberty Bob
In essence, Paul would pull all troops out of everywhere. That means socialist europe would have to start spending money to defend itself.

Second step would end all foreign aid programs, so no 10 billion to Pakistan, no 5 billion to Palestine, no 4 billion to N. Korea. No more propping up dictators, no more covert operations to assassinate elected officials in other countries.

We would engage other countries through trade.

No UN based wars, no WTO trade deficits, just a strong national defense, and an aggressive trade policy.

Brian R
Your insult is truly noted.

>discussing this with you is like talking to a fire hydrant.<

Your interpretation of the Monroe Doctrine is flawed. Nowhere is there the principle that

>The Monroe Doctrine clearly establishes our principle of engaging in foreign wars to protect and further our national self-interest.<

You made that up and you're wrong. It established the principle that we shall oppose any expansion(originally European) or futher colonization of the Americas.

Feel free to link to any respected mind that attempts to equate the Monroe Doctrine as a principle for involvement in foreign wars, sans a western hemisphere connection.

It wasn't even a nice try, especially resorting to an ad hominem attack in an attempt to disguise your ignorance.




Jack Shiite
You confuse my agreement with many of Dr. Paul's other positions - which I believe many mainstream Republicans also agree with - and a willingness on my part to explore his other positions with my disagreement with his position on the Iraq war. I would have continued the discussion last night, but my computer connection would not cooporate.

For the record: I am a card-carrying Libertarian. I am one of the whackos who would legalize drugs and set the non-violent drug offenders free. I would send half of the bureauracracy home with a pink slip on Monday morning. I also belong to the FairTax organization and Citizens Against Government Waste. So, Dr. Paul and I are kindered spirits.

However, unlike the typical Libertarian, I believe that projecting military might when it is in our national interest is better than waiting for the bad guys to start taking us out. I do not believe just being nice the the rest of the world will make them like us more. Preditors look for just such a mentality. I believe being stronger than your advisaries and demonstrating a willingness to use that strength prevents them from getting aggressive.

So, when it became clear to me that maintaining our military efforts in Iraq was in our national interest, I held my nose and voted for Bush in 2004, even though I had voted Libertarian in the previous elections. And I am committed to seeing that effort succeed. Dr. Paul is not, so I won't vote for him.

BTW, chrism
Who said I was a Republican?

I'm a conservative. Sometimes those two things are the same, sometimes they're not.

BTW, your restatement of your earlier assertion -- and I don't know what you mean by being "moderated" -- is still just as simplistic and naive as its first iteration.


lol Brian
We "went to war" with the barbary pirates because they were holding marines hostage. I guess you're counting on people not having any historical context. Did we invade Iraq because they were holding marines hostage? Nope. Therefore your point is meaningless.

I suppose interring Japanese Americans during world war 2 established a PRINCIPLE of arresting american citizens that commited no crime with no formal charge and no trial, thus suspending habeus and government agents self issuing warrants is peachy as well.

That's part of it, Bksz
Yeah, y'know, we have the largest oil shale deposits in the world, and Canada has the largest deposits of oil sands. I remember well, back in the 70s, the enviro-Nazis blocked any development of the shale.

This hemisphere could be energy-independant, but noooooooooo.... we might hurt some rat no one's ever heard of.

However, if that's the case, we gotta do what we gotta do, until someone ties the tree-huggers to the trees, and cuts the trees down on their heads.


Ron Paul Supporters
Hey, I've got to admit that he is looking like the best candidate right now, on pretty much everything. The one hang up I have about Paul is his foreign policy. Its easy to speak in platitudes like "our founders wanted a non-interventionist foreign policy..." But how does that translate into policy? Like all candidates, his website is pretty, but virtually devoid of substance. I am really troubled by what I have heard from him regarding Iran.

Are there any Ron Paul supporters out there who can explain, or point me in the direction of some more information, about what he would base his foreign policy on? Specifically, I want to know about
-Iraq
-Iran
-Mideast in General
-Cuba
-Venezuela
-China
-Russia

That's my only hang up on Paul. If someone could get me the info or explain it to me, I'd appreciate it.

I'll restate it since i was moderated.
Oil was $25 per barrel before we invaded Iraq.
Oil is flirting with $100 per barrel today.

Gas was $1.25 per gallon before we invaded Iraq.
Gas is $3.00 per gallon today.

Perhaps you should rethink your strategy.

Republicans are free market advocates, remember?

Ah-hahahahahaha, chrismatthews
That makes about as much sense as your namesake!

You're saying that our going into Iraq has caused the oil price increase?

Man! What a naive and simplistic world view you have!


BrianR
BrianR, After the first Oil crisis of the 70's the brilliant minds in Washington should have realized that alternative fuels and efficiency should have been the way to go and then perhaps we would not be in this mess of our kids dying for oil.

Instead what did Washington do? Create alliances with dictators and rouge leaders which without a doubt helps create the hatred of Americans all over the world.

The status quo leaders in Washington have brought this unfortunate war for oil upon us and sold it to us under the barely believable guise of fighting terrorism. Are we that gullible to believe that any other candidate other than Ron Paul will continue this madness?

Regards!


Pancho
Last time, because discussing this with you is like talking to a fire hydrant.

The Monroe Doctrine established a PRINCIPLE.

Yes, it was formulated to address a specific occurrence, but the PRINCIPLE can is briadly applicable.

BTW, I ALSO mentioned Jefferson's fighting the Barbary Pirates. The Barbary Pirates were in the Mediterranean Sea. We went to war -- OVER THERE -- because they threatened our national self-interest.

Get it now?

@ Brian
sigh indeed. Oil was $26 per barrel before we invaded Iraq. Now it's flirting with $100. What a wonderful strategy we've employed. Wait until we bomb Iran, it'll break $150 easily.

The thing about being a free market advocate is you have to believe in market forces, and not be a warmongering socialist. that is, unless I'm out of line and the republican party is no longer a free market advocate.

I'll take my $25 barrel of oil all day compared to this.

$1.15 per gallon before Iraq, $3.00 today.

A vivid imagination
>We know Saddam and Al Qaeda were talking to each other before 9/11. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure out that if Saddam gets his nuke he will sell it to Al Qaeda, or Hezzbollah, or Hammas<

Actually, it does takes a lot of imagination, not to mention unsupportable suppositions as well as alliances between mortal enemies.

That's the rub
We're stretched across the globe, our national reserve troops are deployed in Iraq, China is funding our war through loans, illegal immigrants are streaming across our borders, military personnel are having their deployments extended, and somehow Paul is weak on "defense"

This country hasn't been less secure since the Cuban missile crisis.

Pancho..... sigh
If you think our national self-interest stops at the Azores or something, you are incredibly naive.

It's that kind of thinking that'll have this country on its knees, paying $300/bbl of oil, while industry grinds to a slow and agonizing halt for lack of oil.

THAT'S where you and Paul drop the ball, big time.

Sticking our collective heads in the sand will be as effective for us as it is for ostriches.

Cheetahs gobble them up all the time.

Wrong
The Monroe Doctrine is a U.S. doctrine which, on December 2, 1823, proclaimed that European powers would no longer colonize or interfere with the affairs of the newly independent nations of the Americas. The United States planned to stay neutral in wars between European powers and their colonies. However, if these latter types of wars were to occur in the Americas, the United States would view such action as hostile.

Pancho
Let me set the Kool Aid aside, and I'll connect the dots for you.

Saddam was known to be working on building a nuke. (See Kenneth Pollock's "The Threatening Storm" - Pollock was a Clinton-era CIA Iraq specialist, not a Bush fan at all.) France, Germany, and Russia, none of which supported our intervention, did not attempt to deny the proposition, which suggests that they knew the correct to be correct.

Bin Laden and the rest of Al Qaeda have been picking away at us since the 1990s. Finally, in 2001 they pull off the 9/11 attacks. We quickly go after them in Afghanistan, where we know them to be supported by the Taliban.

We know Saddam and Al Qaeda were talking to each other before 9/11. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure out that if Saddam gets his nuke he will sell it to Al Qaeda, or Hezzbollah, or Hammas. Or just use it himself against either Saudi Arabia, Iran or Israel. In any event, we could not allow that to happen.

We invade Iraq. We take out Saddam. We state we will work to install a secular government. Al Qaeada, Hezzbollah, Hamas, Iran all see the idea of a secular Iraq as bad for business. They take up Bush's challenge to "Bring it On." We kill lots of bad guys and prevent them from controlling Iraq's oil fields. I think even Dr. Paul would concede that having any of those entities controlling Iraq's oil would not be in our national interest.

Who are his real supporters?
I understand from a very intelligent and knowledgeable Radio Host that the bulk of his money came from individuals who are Nazi Sympathizers and that means Socialized Medicine and enventua Socialism.

Seems where between chosing between a Dem/Nazi Socialist or the get-along, go-along Republican Party.

Not much of a choice, but I'll vote for Huckabee, he is enough revolutionary for me.

More comprehension problems
>Are you claiming all of the Western Hemisphere is in the US borders?<

Are you claiming Iraq was establishing beachheads in Guatemala? Claiming Uruguay as an Iraqi province? Trying to make Belize Iraq Honduras in a twisted retro joke of British Honduras?


Pancho
The Monroe Doctrine clearly establishes our principle of engaging in foreign wars to protect and further our national self-interest.


Propaganda
I know the biggest issue for some is the Foreign policy direction. If the war in Iraq had turned out any differently , at least some truth, I would be more inclined to agree that this policy we have now is the right one. But thats not what happened, and with the current GOP "hopefuls" all repeating the same nonsense brought to us by the same fools the led us into the war, I dont see how any rational person could see anything but more lies. There are no facts supporting this, and with the recent news coming from the British that since they left Basra, violence has dropped by 90% there is ever reason to believe we could leave, save a bunch of money and start focusing on matter that effect this country, right now and directly. Not support some new GOP "wishful" ideology.

While Saddam was a brutal dictator he has never posed a threat to the US, and to charge me and my family a total of 12k per person for every American to pay for this 3.5 trillion dollar war is one I can not support. Honestly I don't see why we need to be in Europe, Korea, Japan, these are expenditures that can be severed and put back into the US Economy.

Taliesin
"In fact, I seem to remember that Wahabism, the radical Islamic philosophy which gave root to Al Qaeda, was founded in Saudi Arabia, which is driving distance to Iraq, if my geography is correct."

Yet current and past administrations have pandered to the Saudis who have a horrible human rights record and produce extremest who fight us. Why not invade Saudi to based on your logic? They certainly deserve it more with the one exception that they comply with our oil needs and we support them with weapons.


Uninformed
>If you think Al Qaeda is our only Islamo-fascist enemy, you are sadly uninformed.<

If that's what you took from anything I've written, then you need a reading comprehension program.

Now, how about explaining what the Monroe Doctrine and Iraq have to do with each other.


Pancho,
If you think Al Qaeda is our only Islamo-fascist enemy, you are sadly uninformed.


Careful
You're about to unleash the religious lefties.

Suppositions
>confronting Saddam and Al Qaeda in Iraq<

There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq before the war for countries to be concerned about. The radical Ansar Al Islam(which it's claimed harbored Zarqawi) was based in a remote area of Kurdistan where Saddam's troops couldn't go near, and wasn't really, then or now, a part of Iraq.

But making the Al Qaeda/Saddam connection has been a neocon strategy since 9/11. It's just amazing that so many still drink that kool-aid as a basis for the invasion of Iraq.

Hahahaha!
Kill 'em all, and let God sort 'em out!

Popular slogan from my war.


BrianR
Agreed. A little collatoral damage speaks volumes.

Taliesin
I think we're actually on the same page.

I agree; better to fight them there than here.

I support the war; my big argument with it is that I don't feel we're being aggressive ENOUGH.

A bit too touchy-feely for me!




So many self labeled conservatives
are trying desperately to distance Dr. Paul from Reagan. Paul was one of 6 congressmen to endorse Reagan during his first, unsuccessful political attempt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74JF0Xf6hPY

There's a link to Reagan's famous 64 speech.

I challenge you to differentiate Paul's politics to that of Reagan's.

Face the facts, were Reagan to run today, many of you would write him off as a "kook". Reagan enjoyed a strong following of both republicans and democrats, just as Paul does.

This isn't Reagan's party anymore, and dont kid yourself, if you think Paul is a kook, you have no right to consider yourself a Reagan republican.

Pancho
Are you claiming all of the Western Hemisphere is in the US borders?

If not, your question becomes kind of silly, doesn't it?


The Libertarian candidate
Ron Paul may have registered Republican but he's a Libertarian and the polls reflect Libertarian support, as well as some Independents.

But he doesn't have the support of the Party and can never get the nomination. His views are too isolationist. You can argue that we should never have gotten involved in foreign wars. I would argue we have no business in Bosnia and bombing civilian targets in Serbia was criminal. But it won't turn back the clock. It won't undo the past. And it won't get Ron Paul the Republican nomination.

BrianR
(Part 2) So, we go back to the original proposition: Do we fight them on their turf or ours? I vote for fighting it out on theirs. If you don't believe that's what's going on there, I refer you to Pianogirl's earlier post about the insurgents being 60 percent Saudi. If memory serves, Bin Ladin and many of his Al Qaeda minions are also Saudis.

In fact, I seem to remember that Wahabism, the radical Islamic philosophy which gave root to Al Qaeda, was founded in Saudi Arabia, which is driving distance to Iraq, if my geography is correct.

I may be going out on a limb here, but I'll bet Al Qaeda, Hezzbollah, Hamas, and the rest of the Jihadists would like the revenue from Iraq's oil to finance their efforts to bring Sharia to the civilized world. I suspect that they might like to remove Israel from the equasion, and I'll wager Israel wouldn't take that lying down.

Now maybe that scenario makes me a whacko. But suspending disbelief for a moment, imagine how having one or more of the above listed radical Islamic factions controlling Iraqi oil and/or Israel nuking her neighbors just might impact us here at home inside the USA. I submit that any or all of those things might interrupt our energy supply, drive up energy prices, and put us into an economic tailspin. I think that would be contrary to our national interest. I suspect that our allies might be of the same opinion.

BrianR
(Part 1) I'm not saying our involvement in Iraq is not driven by our national interest; I'm suggesting that if it were solely a misguided emotional/patriotic response on the part of the USA, we would not likely have as many as 34 allies pitching in with us. I submit that the 34 other allies, at least at one juncture, agreed that confronting Saddam and Al Qaeda in Iraq was also in their national interests.

They have no emotional nationalistic investment in the USA; they also sense(d) a threat. Unfortunately, in places like Spain, Al Qaeda struck back and the electorate caved. Which in my mind proves that Al Qaeda will continue to use whatever means it can to terrorize the civilized world into ultimately knuckling under to their demands. A nuclear device acquired from Saddam or Iran immediately springs to mind.

Tons of Republicans here
In response to one of Mr. Towery's minor points, I have always been a Republican, and voted that way, and I know many, many other staunchly Republican Ron Paul supporters.
He is saying many of the same things that President Bush said back in 2000 -- the problem is President Bush did not follow through with his promises of a traditional conservative stance: limited government, cut back on the welfare state, no nation building.

So it's not a huge switch to support Dr. Paul, for any Republican worth his salt. I notice several others in this forum who think the same way I do.



nut case
The nuts are nutty about a nut. What's the news in that?
If Gravell and Kucinich and Ron Paul and Ahmadinejad flew away from earth in a spaceship, that would be news.

The Monroe Doctrine
That's quite a stretch to use the Monroe Doctrine as a precedent for our national engagement in foreign wars.

The Monroe Doctrine was designed to keep Eastern Hemisphere countries from futher establishing or influencing expansion into the Western hemishphere.

How does it relate to Iraq?

It's All Not Relative
Discussions about Ron Paul are meaningless, since it is obvious that Hillary is our next President. And, probably a good thing, too. The country has shifted very strongly to the left and has bought into the dream of a Socialist utopia where the big Federal government can provide everything. In addition, the big media propaganda machine has convinced many that the war against radical Islam is not real and if Hillary is elected the threat will simply vanish.

The reason it is a good thing she will be elected is that she will be the first real, dedicated Marxist - socialist to lead this nation (Bill was NOT a socialist and evidently resisted her pressures during his terms). After four years of her "leadership" and seeing the real results of her Socialist agenda we may finally discredit this failed idealogy for good. Note, the rest of the world is turning more moderate, capitalist and open market oriented (see the move to flat tax systems, even in the former eastern bloc). Hillary wants a government managed economy and re-distribution of wealth, she has stated this very strongly, just listen - its failure will be obvious very quickly and she will serve just a single term.

Well, yes, Bksz
That actually is right in line with what I wrote, the key phrase being: "We wish not to meddle with the internal affairs of any country,"


The idea was to not entangle ourselves in OTHER countries' wars; but we can certainly go to war for our OWN purposes.

In the case of the Middle East and Iraq, I think assuring a stable and secure source of oil is most certainly in our national self-interest.

I couldn't give one hoot about establishing democracy in the region. IMO, it's not only a Fool's Errand, but it's up to them to do it for themselves.

Now, if as a side benefit for them, it happens... cool.


It is a good convo, btw, I agree!


Discounting Superpower influence
>34 allies assisting us in Iraq. They all support emotionally driven American nationalism.<

No, they support getting support from the world's sole superpower. With the exception of Britain, that support has been mostly token, and most of it has been gone for some time.

BrianR, What about..
Feel free to replace Europe with your Country and/or Region of choice.. PS. Good discussion!

"I have ever deemed it fundamental for the United States never to take active part in the quarrels of Europe. Their political interests are entirely distinct from ours. Their mutual jealousies, their balance of power, their complicated alliances, their forms and principles of government, are all foreign to us. They are nations of eternal war. All their energies are expended in the destruction of the labor, property and lives of their people." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1823. ME: 15:436

"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations--entangling alliances with none, I deem [one of] the essential principles of our government, and consequently [one of] those which ought to shape its administration." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural Address, 1801. ME 3:321

"We wish not to meddle with the internal affairs of any country, nor with the general affairs of Europe. Peace with all nations, and the right which that gives us with respect to all nations, are our object." --Thomas Jefferson to C. W. F. Dumas, 1793. ME 9:56

"We had better have no treaty than a bad one. It will not restore friendship, but keep us in a state of constant irritation." --Thomas Jefferson: The Anas, 1807. ME 1:467

"To take part in [the European] conflicts would be to divert our energies from creation to destruction. Our commerce is so valuable to them that they will be glad to purchase it when the only price we ask is to do us justice. I believe we have in our hands the means of peaceable coercion, and that the moment they see our government so united as that they can make use of it, they will for their own interest be disposed to do us justice. In this way [we] shall not be obliged by any treaty of confederation to go to war for injuries done to others." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan,

Taliesin
Doesn't matter whether we have allies or not.

The Monroe Doctrine, as well as Jefferson's dealing with the Barbary Pirates, established the principle of our national engagement in foreign wars to protect and further our national self-interest.


Emotionally Driven Nationalism
Uh huh; that's why we have had up to 34 allies assisting us in Iraq. They all support emotionally driven American nationalism.

Clueless?
>So, for the Paul camp to label our current embroilment in Iraq as interventionalist makes them appear clueless about how the world turns.<

Hardly. It makes them look pragmatic. It is emotionally-driven nationalism, disguised as patriotism, that approves of building strawman threats, then overreacting to them in the name of national security.

Sam
Though my support is going to Thompson or Hunter, I agree with the thrust of your comment.

I agree that Paul's candidacy is actually a GOOD thing for the long-term prospects of conservatism in the country, win or lose.

We NEED to have this discussion.


Frankly, my biggest problem with Paul is his foreign/defense policy stance, which I find dangerously naive and rooted in a flawed interpretation of the Constitution. But that's not the topic of the discussion.


not slick enough
Remember when we had had our fill of Slick Willie? How often do we deride politicians for being too smooth. Isn't this one of the major complaints about Mitt Romney? Hillary? Gulliani? Edwards?
So here you have a straight talker in Mr. Paul. Mr. Paul is not a fancy public speaker or polished actor or professional, lifetime politician. Some of you don't like him because of THAT!? Maybe not in particular but it turns you off.
Frankly, that is schitz. You don't want slick and you can't stand plain.
Many of you give the impression that if Paul was a bit more polished in his public persona and speaking delivery you would give him further consideration. To be frank once again, that is childish. That is reducing the selection of a president to a beauty contest, speech contest, or a popularity contest. TH readers and writers should know better and act as though all that matters is substance not style, delivery, looks, popularity; at least not during primary season, for crying out loud.
Paul has some negatives in the issues. That is where anyone concentrate any criticism. I for one agree with him on his philosophy of governing. What I don't hear him say is how he would implement his ideas. I think he would hit the brick wall called the beltway and be completely ineffective. I would hope I was wrong but there is not one peep from him about "HOW TO DO IT." I already know what needs to be done. We are together on that, for the most part.
Mr. Towery has sounded to me in the recent past as all but wishing out loud that Mr. Paul could win. He can't bring himself to believe it possible. He has a fixation on winning at any cost as long as the win is Republican. That would be noble if it were after the primary. At this point it can't have meaning other than to assume he is in the business of king maker. We don't need that.

Is Ron Paul really Lyndon Larouche?
"He is, with the help of insiders, waking the American People, who have been indocrinated by FOX and CNN, to the true nature of US foreign policies...and the blowback effect that it has on the American Citizens. Why should young people, college age and younger, be enthused about going to a foreign land to be maimed, sickened by depleted uranium, and, in essence, have their entire life ruined or ended for the sake of the billionaires at The Carlyle Group?"

I'm relatively sure that with very little effort one could find a strikingly similar query in a Lyndon Larouche pamphlet. This may be where Dr. Paul's supporters give the rest of the electorate the idea that he's a crack pot; some of his acolytes advance that idea.

What would the Prince of Peace do?
As far as the Iraq war (and many wars) If Jesus had is say what would he recommend we do?

Would Jesus be for more fighting or a peaceful solution?

This is a question that should be asked at Debates etc. to any Candidate that is Christian.

If they say that Jesus would be for Peace then why the contradiction in there policy views henceforth rejecting the advice of there savior?

Regards to all
BKusz
Lbts
Fl




Lodestar: Well Said
"Dr. Paul forgets that there is a difference between how you address a strategy meeting of the converted/faithful and a nation which is trying to get a handle on your overall message. He comes across as shrill and obtuse."

This has been the problem for Libertarians in general and the Libertarian Party in particular. It is one thing to refer to a vision that the faithful already agree upon; it is quite another to try and bring others into your way of seeing things. The Paul campaign might have more appeal if it limited itself to those small government ideas that most libertarian-leaning republicans and independents already accept. For instance, Dr. Paul’s alarmist position on monetary policy evokes the “Chicken Little” response.

However, as others here have pointed out, Dr. Paul's position on Iraq is a non-starter. And the attitude that we are embroiled in a quagmire there because Bush & Co. mislead the country for some nefarious Neocon plot to impose democracy on an unwilling third world further dampens his appeal. The turmoil in the middle east has threatened our national interests since at least Jefferson (when he had to dispatch the marines there to demonstrate to the Barbary pirates that we would not let them interfere with our merchants), and, as others have also pointed out, every modern president since at least Carter has dropped the ball on this issue until now. So, for the Paul camp to label our current embroilment in Iraq as interventionalist makes them appear clueless about how the world turns.

I have no choice but to vote for RonPaul
The GOP no longer represents me.
I dont normally comment but this topic has been showing up for awhile now and I feel I must.
When I joined the GOP, some 25 years ago just after becoming of voting age it was because of the shared values and there belief that small fiscal conservatism Govt which was surely better then the big taxing central Govt position of the Democrats.
The current choice of candidates in the so called top tier no longer represent me, the only thing that has happened without question is after 9/11 the Republicans turned into Democrats.
Its a sad day for the GOP when the only trust fiscally conservative republican in the field is considered a kook, or crazy. This is more Democratic talk coming from the left.
So far track records mean something to me, and so far Ron Paul has been right about the War in Iraq voting against regime change under Clinton, voted against the patriot act, the military commissions act of 06, has never voted to raise taxes, never voted for an unbalanced budget. These are the things that concern me. The top tier candidates records and known Democratic strategists are commenting on how Good Guiliani, Thompson, Huckabee or Romney look, I think there is a problem in the party.

This party has been hijacked by Democrats, the entire new party line is straight out of the Democrats play book. The Democrats have always been sore losers now they have managed to get some of there own candidates into this party and no one seems to even notice.

As far as the analogy given, if Ron Paul runs as a third party I will vote for him, if he is not on the ballot I probably wont vote. I do see a new party forming, one to take this one back and the Neo Conservatives finding there own party that shares there views. Its not a popular view which is why they have infiltrated the GOP.

Swan song for big gov't social cons?
Ron Paul reveals the problems in our party today. The social cons want big government enforcement of their visions for society. Huckabee is a symptom of that. He actually supports a federal ban on Internet poker, because he believes freedom is bad.

America needs Ron Paul. I'll vote for him in both the primary and in the general election.

pianogirl
Off topic, but a very revealing article! Says Volumes. Thanks for the link.


Ron Paul
Townhall is doing itself a huge disservice by assaulting the greatest conservative since Ronald Reagan. This will affect its image with young conservatives for years and years to come.

We want a pro-life, small-government, secure-boarder Christian conservative! We want Ron Paul!

Are we really supposed to get excited about Guiliani and his ultra-liberal voting record???

December 16th, people!!! Lets bring back the constitution and take back America!!!!!

Trent
For me if the choice comes down to the worst Republican verses the worst Democrat I'll either vote third party or not at all. This party first stuff ended years ago for me and I have too much respect for my vote to give it to anyone not worthy of it, regardless of party.

Paul's candidacy is symptomatic
of the deep fissures in the GOP caused by its own capitulation to liberalism.

If the GOP were still attuned to its roots and core principles, there wouldn't be a level of disaffection as high as it is, which is what gives Paul's candidacy such traction.

If the GOP were still the party of Reagan or the 1994 Contract With America, instead of the party of northeastern liberalism as typified by Giuliani, Paul would simply be another candidate in the field whose ideas (other than on foreign policy) weren't that unusual.

The very notion that a third-party run by Paul could by itself result in a Hillary presidency speaks volumes.

When GOP Apologists try to rationalize their lack of principle by talking about Reagan's "big tent conservatism", they always miss the word "conservatism" and try to reinterpret it as meaning some kind of philosophy that appeals to liberals as well as Republicans. Nothing's further from the truth.

He was talking about a form of sheer and pure conservatism based on traditional American values that would draw in other CONSERVATIVES, such as Blue Dog Democrats, who are natural conservative allies, not yielding conservative values to chase some mythical and non-existent uncommitted ideological demographic, and particularly not liberals.

He had no use for liberalism. As he said, he "didn't leave the Democrat Party. The Democrat Party left me".

Let's stop chasing the Dems.



Candidate positions on Wikepedia
Unlike all the other candidates Ron Pauls political positions are posted for all to see, even Wikepedia did a seperate page on him on issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Pau l

Ron Paul is the only Candidate I can find that has a Wikepedia page on issues only, all of the other candidates have 1(one) page on Wikepedia that is merely a Bio with no additional page listing political positions?

Why is this? Probably because if any of the other candidates had a political position page on Wikepedia they would spend every waking day changing it to fit there needs...

Thoughts?

BrianK
Lbts
Fl

Lebanon vs Iraq
Of course the big difference is that in Iraq we toppled not only the ruling regime, but the entire structure(security, economy, education, infrastructure, government services)was eradicated with the plan to build from the ground up American-style. This neo-con plan was the result of the alliance between Wolfowitz and Chalabi, a completely westernized Iraqi who hadn't even set foot in the country for years.

The billion dollar embassy, the permanent bases, and the re-building have and will continue to be one of the most expensive follies ever undertaken by an administration, and there's little guarantee that any of these actions will result in long-term stability sans a continued and treasury sapping military occupation.