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Thursday, November 22, 2007
Matt Towery :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Ron Paul Factor
by Matt Towery
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As we continue to poll and observe the various states involved in the early caucus/primary battles for the Republican presidential nomination, one thing is becoming increasingly clear to me: While Ron Paul may lag behind most of his GOP competitors in the polls, the intensity of devotion from his supporters makes his candidacy deserving of more attention than it's gotten to date.

His sometimes-quirky mannerisms and oddball demeanor fly in the face of what most Republicans traditionally look for in their presidential nominees. And his comments startle many for their bluntness and contrariness to long-running establishment GOP thinking.

That's exactly why Paul could have an unexpected impact not only on the Republican nomination process, but also on the November general election as well.

Consider that over 600 people turned out for a rally for Paul in Reno, Nevada, recently. The media described the crowd as a mixed group that included many college students.

That's another indicator of the potential impact of the Paul campaign. I recall in 1980 when establishment Republicans and conservatives were backing George H.W. Bush, John Connally or Howard Baker for president.

But on college campuses, the birth of the modern College Republicans movement was feeding off of the support of frustrated college students for the maverick in the race, Ronald Reagan.

Don't get me wrong. I am not predicting Paul will pull a Reagan and somehow beat out the GOP's establishment contenders. I will suggest that Paul may fatally damage several potential candidates, and perhaps the entire Republican Party, if he breaks away and runs as a legitimate third-party candidate after Tsunami Tuesday's primaries in early February.

Paul blends a unique mixture of cynicism over the health of the economy, loud opposition to the erosion of civil liberties, plus a stand as the only GOP candidate who's flat-out opposed to the war in Iraq.

Those issues unite a seemingly disparate group of voters who collectively feel that 20 years of the presidency being shared between two families -- the Clintons and Bushes -- is more than enough. They are voters who have found their mouthpiece in Paul, who's willing to voice their frustration over Republicans, Democrats and whoever and whatever else represents "The Establishment."

Paul could be deadly to someone like conservative Mike Huckabee, who is steadily rising in many polls but can't be assured of the devoted turnout of his supporters, as Paul almost surely can.

Paul's words have also taken away some of the ink that should have gone to Fred Thompson, who entered the race as the supposed "I'll say anything and throw caution to the wind" candidate, but whose measured and often boring campaign speeches have consistently fallen short of their billing.

Unlike many GOP candidates, Paul hasn't tried to have his cake and eat it, too, on the subject of President Bush. He has little or nothing charitable to say about the president. And with new revelations coming from Bush's own press secretary about "who knew what when" in the CIA leak scandal, Paul's distance seems all the wiser.

How do I think Ron Paul will impact 2008? It's at least possible that he'll fare better than expected -- and not just eventually in scattered primaries, but as early as next week in the much-awaited CNN/YouTube debate in Florida. Paul is often quicker and less plastic than his counterparts, and could do well in such a format.

But where will Ron Paul really do his damage? It could be by seriously damaging the Republican establishment his followers so despise.

How? By running as a third-party candidate. In critical "Red States," where the vote may turn on just a small percent, Paul could block any hope of a GOP victory.

That would likely mean a Hillary Clinton presidency. But it might also mean a true remake of the Republican Party for the future. The abandonment of the get-along, go-along Republican Party is something that many, including and beyond Paul's supporters, would like to see.

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About The Author
Matt Towery is a former National Republican legislator of the year and author of Powerchicks: How Women Will Dominate America.
 
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Pretty good
Pretty good article you got there! Although, I wouldn't say he's really /lagging/ in the polls as much as, say, Fred Thompson and John McCain.

IA/FL: 6%/5%
NH, SC, NV: ~8%

So he isn't in the lead or anything, but neither was John Kerry. John Kerry had 4% at this time, 7% the day before winning New Hampshire. It was a pretty interesting feat indeed!

Also, Ron Paul had about 1,500 at the rally he had in Los Vegas, and about 70-80 people at a 500/1000$ plate dinner.

I think Ron Paul is getting a lot more support than he is polled, but I don't think the media wants to take him seriously because they don't want to bring up the issues he's bring up or end up looking like fools like they did when they pumped Howard Dean up (and how they're pumping Clinton up too).

But God, I really hope he gets the Republican nomination (I'll be a split room if he does, probably some fights), and ends up beating whoever the Democratic (and independents) candidate(s) are. We really do need him in the oval office for a good 4-8 years.

Hey Knight...slow your roll.
We begged for 'Mainstream Media' coverage and here it is. Mr. Towery's article was not negative towards Dr. Paul in any meaningful way that I could detect, and considering it's on th.com, it's downright complimentary.
Maybe I am reading too much into it, but re-read this last sentence:

"The abandonment of the get-along, go-along Republican Party is something that many, including and beyond Paul's supporters, would like to see."

Methinks Towery might be one of the 'many' he speaks of. He, like many of us, sees some parallels with Goldwater's run in the 60's, Reagan's unsuccessful bid in '76, and Rep. Paul's current campaign. We hope that more Republicans, like myself, come to realize that perma-war neo-conservatism is a bankrupt ideology, rescued from Woodrow Wilson's dusty attic. While we are hopeful that Paul can win this cycle, we are also hopeful that his maessage and its movemement will last for years to come.

Peace (and Happy Thanksgiving) be with you all.

Paul is Goldwater redux
Ron Paul’s libertarian values and message are almost identical to Goldwater and Reagan.
That is why it’s resonating especially with folks with western American values of self-reliance and skepticism of government. I remember Reagan and Goldwater were denounced as kooks and slimed by socialist the same way as Paul is. But if you look at the Republican field of candidates, the only candidate who has any chance and is not a socialist is Ron Paul. Although Thompson is closer to the libertarian side of the spectrum, he would extend the socialist ideal of foreign interventionism. Every other candidate either Republican or Democratic advocates both domestic and foreign interventionism by the federal government and thusly can be classified as a socialist.

Regards
DF Robichaux
http://lifebelowi10.blogspot.com/

Brent
The problem with comparing John Kerry to Ron Paul is that Kerry eventually became the frontrunner BECAUSE he was seen as a conventional Democratic candidate compared to the more fiery, confrontational, and radical Howard Dean.

Dean was propelled to early frontrunner status by net fundraising and the enthusiasm of younger, college-age Democrats, etc.

Sound like anybody we know?

And knight_of_baawa, are you still going on about this "vengeance for 9/11" stuff? That was six years ago and you are starting to sound like a one note samba. I mean every post you do concerning foreign policy dredges up this "revenge for 9/11" business. Do you really suppose that your typical American can sustain hate for that long? That our political memories are that long?

Look, I find almost all the tenets of Wahhabi fundamentalism to be completely reprehensible, backward, and medieval.

9/11 didn't cause me to think that way about it. It certainly brought it into sharper focus, but I despise Islamic radicalism with the same fervor that our parents and grandparents reserved for Nazism, slavery, communism, and Japanese atrocities.

And you know what, Knight? Hating and despising that sort of stuff is HEALTHY.

Just so you know
Townhall is an anti Paul website and now you can see the strategy. They are trying to scare the GOP not to vote for Paul so that they can win against Clinton. Don't you readers see what they are trying to do. PLease boycott Townhall, faux News, and all the media mouth pieces for the corrupt and unethical GOP people in DC. Wake up America! Paul is going to win!!

Bob Dole says, "I need a stiff one."
"[Dr. Paul's] sometimes-quirky mannerisms and oddball demeanor fly in the face of what most Republicans traditionally look for in their presidential nominees."

Huh??? You're kidding, right? Nixon ('nuf said)? Ford (Kaptain Klutz)? George Herbert Walker Bush (silver foot-in-mouth disease)? George Walker Bush (Smirky McMalaprop)? Have you lost all touch with reality? Besides Reagan, what Republican President trumps Dr. Paul in either substance or style? You have to go all the way back to TR to find one -- 100 years! Matt, you TH neoclowns really need to lay off the THC.

JackShiite
Jack is right. This is one of the few places that will even let Paul people speak. I am still wondering what Paul is going to do with all of his money?

A Party of One
Knight,

Chill out. That's the problem with you anarchists. You can't even find one other person to let into your club. If you do get together with someone else, you burn the clubhouse down as your first act of cooperation.

belly full of socialism
This arthor tells me in a roundabout way that I must give up hope for a return to limited constitutional government. Give up Paul, or your gonna get Hillary.

Well I am sick of the government by the people telling the people what to do, instead of the other way around. Mabe Hillary is just what we need to become sick of socialism as a people. If this beast we have created does not devour us first.

Give me liberty, and stay out of my pockets!

Intensity
is what it is all about. If Paul can get 81% of his support to turn out to vote and another candidate can only muster 20%, Ron Paul will win with only one quarter of the number of supporters. Let's look at what this means for NH -

Typically, 12% of Republicans vote in the primary. I will assume that this is representitave how many of the supporters for the other candidates will show up to vote. So, according to phone polls, which I believe to be biased toward Bush Republicans, out of 100 NH Republican voters, approximately 30 support Romney and 8 support Paul. But if Romney only gets 12% of those 30 to the polls, that is only 4 voters. If Paul can get 50% of his 8 to the polls, that is also 4 voters.

This demonstrates that victory for Paul is at hand. NH needs to focus on making sure that every single person who already supports Paul makes it to the polling place. Form voting parties. Give your neighbors rides. Form lists of known supporters who can be counted on to vote for Paul, andcontact them to make sure they vote. If we can get more of Paul's supporters to the polls, he will win. This is where the grassroots and intensity can carry Paul to victory. It is YOUR and MY responsibility to ensure that no Paul supporter goes unrepresented.

Win. Win. Win. Vote Ron Paul.

Laughter
Why is it everytime I hear Ron Paul speak at a debate I first begin to laugh and then tremble at the thought of this guy running this country.

I'll grant you he has some good ideas (intentions) on the Constitution and the economy - but he also seems to have a bit of a loose cannon demeanor that scares the begezers out of me.

No, I just see him mucking up the whole thing and we end up with 4 (8) more years of those 2 dirt bags selling off the White House and America.


"The United States was responsible for .
...9/11",or words to that effect.I had never heard of Ron Paul before the first Republican debate.After the debate,I wondered how a "No Foriegn Entanglements" candidate could qualify for a major political party debate in this day and age.I'm still wondering,but I guess "Bozo The Clown" could qualify also.Barry Goldwater he ain't!

Jack
Conspiracy theory? Where in the wold did you come up with that?

Maybe you think Paul is going to win the (R) nomination, I don't. If he runs as a third party - as was inferred in the article - he'll only insure we have the Clintons again.

No conspiracy theory here, pal. It sounds like you're itching for a fight.

Republican guest picks Ron Paul?
CNN hosts shocked when Republican guest picks Ron Paul

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/cnn-hosts-shocked- when-republican-guest-picks-ron-paul


Did Ron Paul Not Say On National
Television that 9-11 was our fault?

That in and of itself is all the information that you should need in determining his suitability for the office in question.

Mr. Paul is for the abandonment of our involvement in other parts of the world. Were we to do so, the outcome would be that one day we would find ourselves entirely surrounded by enemies, that we chose to ignore. Enemies which then took advantage of our inattention and conquered one country after another, until only we are left.

Not at all a winning strategy and not I think, one that even Washington would embrace under the circumstances. He was not a stupid man and would realize the gravity of our situation.

He would realize as well, that our needs have changed with regard to the military and the time compression of our threats profiles. They were months, even years long in his day. Some are minutes long in ours.

I find it interesting that our enemies, all of them, seem to want us to leave the rest of the world to them. I find it interesting as well that Mr. Paul wishes to accommodate them. I find that a very difficult position to justify given the available information.


Any Kook can sway an election
It has been done before as we all know. At this point I am not sure who Ron Paul would take votes away from, he isn't really a Republican someone should take his card away. He certainly will have appeal to the smaller government crowd against any of the Democrats and most of the Republicans. I must admit he has minor appeal to me on that one but his smaller government would be to disarm the military, which he could do and not make smaller government which is much harder. There is a line from the old "MASH" on TV, going to the wheel of the ship your on and finding Daffy Duck in control. Having Ron Paul as President would be a lot like that.


I was feeling a bit defeated about the state of our country and its possible direction if Newt and others are right and the Dragon Lady were to be elected. Then I read “The forgotten Man” and discovered that nobody could make as many mistakes as Roosevelt as a Progressive President, which is what Hillary is and claims to be and yet the country went on the thrive as the pendulum swings as it always does the other way. The other thing that has been interesting and taken me out of my momentary fatalist view was this article https://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/Crime-- Drugs--Welfare-and-Other-Good-News-10999?page=all but for a small regression during the Clinton years, the last 15 years have been pretty positive on most levels. Urban crime is still very high and big pockets of “kill or be killed” sectors of the country. But I am assuming these are areas that eventually will be solved and brought down to more exceptable levels. In these areas you are more likely to be killed than if your in a war zone in the world. I am reading Grant’s autobiography. Half way through the Battle of the Wilderness, where in 6 weeks his command dwindled from 156,000 to 115,000 and confederate side lost at least as many.




Post 2
The necessity for war will never go away, no matter how hard Ron Paul and his supporters want to wish it away, but let us have some perspective, each generation has its price and right now the price is small, unless its your son or daughter that is killed. I am not making light of the loss of life, I have personally been affected by it more than once but it hasn’t changed be it George Washington or George Bush or Ron Paul, there are battles around the world that need to be fought. It is a pay me now or pay me later situation. If we had dealt with terrorism more directly from Carter to Clinton, there would have been no 9-11. I cut no slack here, I include Reagan and probably more so Reagan, because it was expected and when he didn’t deal with it, they thought that no other President would.

Yes, I can see a fringe cult hero in Ron Paul, a small but enthusiastic bunch of Internet savvy people like those animals that can make themselves look larger to fend off predators. The jury is still out in my mind as to who he would hurt most if he ran as a third party candidate, which there is no indication that he will.

I almost never check back on the comments, there are just too many. I always get a couple of Ron Paul groupies that think they can convert an undecided voter so give it your best shot barrym@tds.net



This Dog Won't Hunt
I could vote for a libertarian who looked and sounded like Mitt Romney but Ron Paul looks and sounds like one of the kooks spouting off in New York's Central Park. He is desperately in need of a coach or several coaches. A Goldwater he ain't. His ideas may be good and they are similar to Pat Buchanan's but Pat comes across as a likeable person while Ron sounds and looks like a wild-eyed anarchist that you quickly hurry the children away from. Ron Paul is not going to win the Republican nomination--you can bet the farm on that but as a third party candidate he could guarantee ("They're back!) the Clinton hellhounds return to the White House.

Ron Paul
Ron Paul is an interesting fellow. It's a shame that so many of his supporters are so downright offensive.

Ron Paul is wrong on wanting to legalize pot and wrong on wanting to abolish the Federal Reserve - the institution which makes so much of trade possible by giving us a money supply to use as a medium of exchange. He's wrong on wanting to tie our currency's value to gold. He's wrong on Iraq and wanting to simply up and leave when we are now making progress. He's wrong on the Patriot Act. He's wrong on the draft. He's wrong on having a central, unified notion of justice.

He's right on the issue of the unborn. He's right on needing to abolish our entitlement programs. And he's right that the Federal Reserve abuses its power and creates the "inflation tax."

...and despite all those disagreements, if the nominee, he will have my vote, unlike Giuliani. Who said social conservatives can't compromise?

Where do you people GET this stuff?
My bet would be you listen to Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly. Time to wean yourselves and do your own research.

The fact is that Ron Paul will be drawing a lot of support from non-Republicans (mostly Independents and Libertarians, some Democrats) and this support is not showing up in the GOP-based polls. Even in the unlikely event that he would run third-party, who's to say he couldn't win, given the choice of two lying, flip-flopping, big government competitors? Most Americans are fed up with the whole system and would welcome the choice a third party would offer.

Go here to start your research: http://www.ronpaullibrary.org


Pianogirl
Actually, from what I've seen on Rasmussen, the *majority* of Ron Paul's support comes from libertarian Democrats rather than Republicans due to his anti-war stance. If Giuliani is the Republican nominee, my vote will go to Ron Paul.

perception as reality
I largely agree with Ron Paul philosophically, but as Jerseyvet noted, the messenger leaves a lot to be desired. When Reagan wowed 'em versus Carter (leading to a blowout of the feckless "malaise" incumbent), he was reassuring and positive about America. Dr. Paul forgets that there is a difference between how you address a strategy meeting of the converted/faithful and a nation which is trying to get a handle on your overall message. He comes across as shrill and obtuse.

I also hope that he does not do the 3rd party thing and like Ross Perot put a Clinton in the W.H. again with 42% of the vote. Tancredo's agenda is even more important to America for now, but I don't want him running as an independent either. They will have served the nation by making their statements, though neither was a gifted spokesperson. I am likely to support Mitt because of his stand on ILLEGALS-- Regularization Rudy, Sen. Juan McQuisling and the Huckster are verboten!

Ron Paul's non-GOP supporters
I totally disagree with the contention that a Ron Paul third-party candidacy would damage Republican chances of winning the White House in 2008.

Because from what I am seeing, most of Ron Paul's supporters are NOT rank-and-file Republicans. They seem to be the lunatic fringe, libertarians, disgruntled Independents, and even radicalized Democrats who are convinced that the Iraq War and the Bush Administration are "proof" that America is fundamentally broken.

Ron Paul talks about a lot of things, but his signature issue is being antiwar. But how many antiwar Republicans are there in the GOP anyway besides him? Very few, from what I can see.

Paul's candidacy is therefore different from that of Ross Perot in 1992. Perot's signature issue was balancing the Federal budget, something that has always appealed to Republicans. Ron Paul wants to cut and run from Iraq, which has almost NO appeal to rank-and-file Republicans.

lodestar
I beg you to go to youtube and check out Ron Paul. He's been on numerous tv shows, news shows, etc. where you can see him in action. He is affable, calm, intelligent, and presidential.

You appear to have only watched him in the debates, where he is usually set up, and has only 30 seconds to one minute to get his points across. This is admittedly not his best medium.

I think you will be impressed.

Ron Paul
Ron Paul does not claim to be able to work miracles. He is, with the help of insiders, waking the American People, who have been indocrinated by FOX and CNN, to the true nature of US foreign policies...and the blowback effect that it has on the American Citizens. Why should young people, college age and younger, be enthused about going to a foreign land to be maimed, sickened by depleted uranium, and, in essence, have their entire life ruined or ended for the sake of the billionaires at The Carlyle Group? Run with all the rheortic all you want, this is what it is all about. Get educated about the Federal Reserve and what it really is. Against abortion, but for slaughtering & maiming? That doesn't jell with me. Go Ron Paul

And lodestar...
Ron Paul will build a fence, although he believes it is a minor first step; end freebies for illegals; and try to amend the Constitution to nullify the anchor baby provision.

He will also station OUR troops on OUR borders to protect OUR country's sovereignty. I don't see anyone else with as strong of an immigration policy.

Educating Rudy on Iraq by Ron Paul
macthemadman

Fact vs. Fiction please watch video!

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/educating-rudy-on- iraq-by-ron-paul


Who's "Spoiling" Who?
Matt,
I appreciate your observations and analysis, but the undertone of your article appears to be the notion that somehow Ron Paul is going to be a "spoiler" and does not have a legitimate chance to win. I respectfully disagree.
Ron Paul and Mike Huckabee have seen a recent "bump" in the polls. I contend that most of Huckabee's increasing support is coming from those who had previously supported Rudy Giuliani and Mitt Romney. Huckabee is further diluting the pro-Iraq "war" and business-as-usual voting bloc. Ron Paul's supporters are firm in their support of the only candidate from either major party that places his allegiance in the Constitution ahead of party loyalty.
He may very well "do a Reagan", because Paul's principles of limited federal government are very much like Reagan's and Paul in fact was one of the few Republican congressman who supported Reagan in his run for the White House in 1976.
Paul, as president, would be a tremendous breath of freash air and lead our Congress in a better direction. There would be less hostility by Congress toward the president, because the partisan tension would not be there. Paul would essentially be a non-partisan president, and I think that is what so many people are hungry for.
The polls are also grossly underestimating Paul's support. He is so far under the radar that we wil undoubtedly be very, very surprised as the first primaries take place. Major pollster Zogby has even admitted that the polls' sampling methods are seriously underrepresenting the segment of the population that is supporting Ron Paul.
We will know in a couple of months.


Kudos for Ron Paul
9/11 was not our fault.

And I don't know the precise context Ron Paul claimed that it was our fault.

However, there is no disputing that we DID encourage the spread of Islamic fundamentalism as a way to undermine the Soviet puppet government in Afghanistan in the 1980s, AND we've encouraged or funded Islamic fundamentalist movements for decades to counter Soviet attempts to influence the muslim world.

I did not say we were wrong to have done these things, but actions sometimes have unintended consequences, and sometimes those we helped have turned around and bitten us in the butt.

I like Ron Paul. I would have to learn more about his positions before deciding to vote for him.

I believe the GOP is in need of fresh ideas, and Paul's libertarian streak is consistent with conservative values on smaller, less intrusive government.

Bush(with his neocon, Wilsonian, leftist-inspired foreign policy, and his amnesty scheme)plus GOP leaders in congress with their "bridges to nowhere", and their Tom Delays, and their "pork" and protection of special interests, have really turned me off.

No, I ain't a democrat.

But I am no longer a republican either.

Ron Paul
If Ron Paul were to run as a third party candidate, I would see him taking as many traditionally Democratic voters as traditionally Republican voters, as a result of his aggressively anti-Iraq war stance.

Here in the St Cloud, MN I've seen Ron Paul bumper stickers on vehicles having traditionally Democratic bumper stickers--not dispositive, as anecdotal evidence is virtually meaningless, but as I'm randomly guessing here, I'm willing to run with anecdotal evidence.

On becoming an anti-war Republican
First off, I am not a kid but a Republican who has voted that way all the way back to Jerry Ford.

I first became interested in Ron Paul because he is the ONLY candidate speaking out about the precariousness of the dollar. As much as I liked Ron Paul on fiscal and monetary policy, I could not buy his position on the war, and on foreign policy generally. But because he is so perceptive about many other matters, I read more in depth about what he had to say.

Enlightenment first dawned when I read his 'Questions that Won't be asked about Iraq', from 9/10/02 (http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr091002.htm). These convinced me that Ron Paul is an exceptionally subtle thinker with regard to our relationships with the world, and that our leaders were not forthright about all available information at the time. Our leaders' anachronistic embrace of open borders also lends support to Paul's arguments.

Those who cast Paul as an isolationist must not comprehend that his foreign policy is indeed energetic, along the lines of that practiced by Theodore Roosevelt. He believes in a mighty military and in having real friendships among the nations, cultivated through trade and diplomacy. Once upon a time, America was considered to be the greatest and most generous nation on earth, and a peacemaker between quarreling parties. When my father traveled the Middle East during WWII, through Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and Palestine, he was welcomed into the homes of ordinary people for meals and lodging. He is inclined to believe that Ron Paul is right, that our meddling has incurred ill will against us.

Ron Paul also places responsibility for 9/11 squarely with the hijackers and al Qaeda, voted for the invasion of Afghanistan, and authored a bill for putting a price of $1 billion on Osama's head. Those who interpret his actions as 'blaming America for 9/11' are being willfully ignorant, IMO.

Not gonna happen...
Personally I'm hoping this full-of-himself nutball jumps in with both feet.

Why?

Because he'll hurt the Democrat nominee a lot more than the Republican. And all the proof you need is right here in Texas. You drive around 'Keep it wierd' Austin, an island of clue in a sea of Texas red, and Ron Paul yard signs, bumper stickers and banners are so ubisuitous you'd think he's the only guy running.

Then drive around rock-ribbed Republican Dallas.

Ron who?

Different messanger
I like a lot of Ron Paul's message but not him. Somehow, he turns me off. The message needs a different messenger.

No third party run.
Paul has the ability to appeal to a number of people across the political spectrum from one issue like the war in Iraq to a number of issues such as the Federal Reserve being the engine of inflation. There are a lot of folks who are mad at both the parties for putting the narrow interests of their respective elites over that of the general public as a whole.

I've heared Cong. Paul on three occasions state that he won't run as a third party candidate. If it turns out he got shafted by the RNC in some fashion I hope he would reconsider as both parties need a good shaking up and I mean causing the replacement of those who hold the top positions. These political parties are ruining the country by their short sightedness.

I win
I have to agree with some of the other posters. This forum is fine by my book, after experiences on bulletin boards like "Free" Republic. The moderation here is done with a light touch.

Why Paul is attacked
Ron Paul opposes the 'Israel First' mentality which is the de-facto basis of US foreign policy. This is why the likes of Podhoretz, Frum, et al so viciously attack him.

Something in common with Ron Paul
I also have little or nothing charitable to say about Pres. Bush ; )

Mainstream Republicans
This myth that all Paul's supporters are outside the mainstream "ant-establishment" libertarians is just flat wrong. No doubt he draws people like that in, but I personally know a dozen Paul supporters or more, and we all vote Republican every time. The difference is that now we finally have someone to vote FOR, because Paul actually says what we want to hear instead of simply being better than the Democrat. How can any Republican be at odds with Paul's message of small government, low taxes, individual rights, and constitutionalism? He's at odds with Bush on foreign policy, but Bush's foreign policy is a sharp departure from the tradition conservative stance of non-intervention. It floors me that Rudy gets a pass for discarding almost everything conservatives stand for while Paul is considered an outsider.

Ron Is the best candidate.
Rons support is stronger than most think and these traditional polls are outdated and biased. I believe he will get the nomination if we make sure the voting is legal.

I'm the lead plantiff against the State of Missouri in the NCEL(National Clean Elections Lawsuit) which is getting ready to go before the Supream Cort in New York soon. This lawsuit is to do away with hackable-vote flipping electronic voting machines and go back to the hand ballot which would be in full public view and verfiable by all voters. As we have seen in the last two stolen elections we need this reform if your and my vote is to matter. The Constitution allows a vote to all that counts, and with these unverifiable and unauditable machines we cannot be sure our vote is counted right. Please go to http://www.ncel.w4sp.com/ and support this effort. While at the site please go to videos and watch the 3 documentaries about the fraud and the movement to stop this fraud. Pay attention to the first documentary which is in 9 parts that shows the actual hacking and the vote flipping the Diebold machine does. This is on camera and verified by a Florida voting head.

Point being is that whoever you support and vote for may not get your vote due to fraud and hackability in these machines. I'm sure like me you want to make sure your vote goes to the candidate of your choice and not have to wonder if your vote really counted.

Typhoon
"Then drive around rock-ribbed Republican Dallas".

Dallas zoning laws prohibit political signs except within 30 days of the election. Tickets will be issued. I know, I received one. Ron Paul support strong in Dallas. He has Meet-up groups in Dallas, Plano, and Arlington. Don't misinterpret lack of signs as lack of support.

His stance on the military
That one ruins it for me. I think a country MUST have a strong and formidable military or it won't be long before it disappears.

True
That's right, Chuck. All this stuff about Paul's supporters being Democrats and Libertarians with few conservative Republicans is nonsense. In regard with the independents the rise in their numbers is partially due to disaffected Republicans tired of being given a lot of rhetoric and no action dumping this neocon controlled entity for independent status such as myself. The failure to curb illegal immigration in the 90s was the last straw for me after seeing a number of other ones broken. The Republican party believes they can win by hollering "Hillary" and scare folks with this lesser of the two evils nonsense. That hasn't worked with me since 1996 and I suspect a number of others are getting fed up with this worn out trick. They want to win? Quit trying to shove establishment candidates down our throats.

Stance on the military
>I think a country MUST have a strong and formidable military or it won't be long before it disappears.<

Actually, what you want is the status quo of the past 60 years - a military that doesn't function as as a vehicle of defense, but rather an international force that is all-too-eager to drain the treasury with aggression that is counter-productive to our national interests.
You probably think there is no military industrial complex, or that it expands far beyond the realm of defense spending.

For instance, why do we need a billion dollar US embassy in Baghdad(the largest and most expensive in the world) that comes out of the State Dept budget? Why are we using the same Kuwaiti-based construction company that is ripping us off in Baghdad to build a $122 million consulate office in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia?

Your type of thinking never questions military industrial complex expenditures, even when it's clear that such largesse is unrelated to national defense.

Paul over Huckabee, for sure . . .
If the Repubs nominate Huckabee, a George W. clone with respect to the conservative religious come-on, southern governorship, and love of taxation (see his REAL records), I will vote for Paul in a second and not sweat seeing the Repubs get what they will have deserved.

This religious rightwing needs to get a grip. They become enthralled with anybody who talks the talk. But this tradition of Big Govt religious conservatism is going to bankrupt us and steal our basic rights. I used to be a supporter of this wing of the party, if not an adherent, but after George W. and this godawful mess -- worse than Clinton could EVER have conceived, no more . . .


Stormy, a question.
I'm a poll official who helps run a polling place. I preform these tasks on the Diebold system. I have to tabulate the results from each DRE and match those, once accumulated, with the results from the Express poll machines. The aggregate from all of this and the voters' certificates I have to record on the recap sheet. It appears to me that there are a lot a failsafes incorporated to make it hard to commit fraud. Even if the memory card was set before hand fraud I think could be detected in a primary election.

As a sidenote, I make a copy of the results to check it against what the R&E board shows the next day. I've never had a problem, but with this election I intend to be looking closely, as this district is heavily in favor of one party. Do you have any suggestions here?

Ron Paul like Pres Reagan??? NOT
Representative Paul wants to Pull us out of foreign entanglements.

President Reagan built the Military to especially include Over Seas forces AND he invaded Grenada (oh my, without congressional approval OR Declaration of WAR I might add)!!! How is that like Rep Paul?

Pres Reagan built up the CIA and Rep Paul wants to cut back on its powers.

Pres Reagan ran against illegal Imigration but then comprimised and gave us an Amnesty Bill. Rep Paul?

I voted for Pres Reagan and joined Army while he was CIC. Reagan inspired me. He had people like Al Haig working for him, not exactly the type Rep. Paul would choose.

Pres Reagan nominated Allan Greenspan to the FED. Would Rep Paul have done so?

I have been to his website and read his debates, I researched his positions and Pres Reagan he is NOT.

Tinsldr2@yahoo.com or for a great Blog On Rep paul see http://tinsldr2.townhall.com/Default.aspx

Defense
Paul does support a strong defense. He just wants it based over here with some of it along the Rio Grande. Paul's main point on what some people claim is a cut is really shutting down bases that are outdated by the ending of the Cold War and are not necessary anymore. He also wants to remove US forces from Korea and Germany. When I consider how much equipment and vehicles need to be repaired or replaced I see this as a net plus in additon to removing a source of friction with the host country.

We NEED Ron Paul...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMaMYL_shxc#fOp-5_fHA3I


Don't taze me, bro.

Not too lon ago
I read an article about which canidates had actual organised boots on the ground. The second highest was Obama, with something like 1500 and the highest went to Ron Paul with 40,000 boots on the ground. That was unbelievable and says something for his support, from actual voters.

Another thing that is very impressive is his support from actual citizens across the country and their donations. The other candidates are being funded by corporations and have low turn outs to rallies. It seems to me that if actual single voters are contributing to Paul compared to corporate donations, which have no vote, Paul just may take the nomination and win the presidency.

I look at Rudy and Mitt, as the front runners, only because the MSM is reporting them as such. However, it just seems like a misrepresentation of fact. How can Paul have so many supporters, win straw polls, win debates according to the MSM online polls and not be taken seriously?

It used to be that winning straw polls was serious business, now it seems, that it is inconsequential if the MSM proclaimed front runners don't win them.

Im not a Paul supporter, as of yet, but he just may take the nomination irregardless of what the MSM is espousing. Paul Certainly gives one pause.

Ron Paul next President
" Paul could be deadly to someone like conservative Mike Huckabee, who is steadily rising in many polls but can't be assured of the devoted turnout of his supporters, as Paul almost surely can."

????? How can a guy have rising support yet no one will show at the poll to vote for him?

Ron Paul has support from millions of Americans and the support grows daily, Ron Paul has more UN-paid volunteers than any other candidate, Ron Paul is raising money from his every day people supporters, unlike the lobby and special interest money of the other candidates. If anything, Rudy,Huckabee are the spoilers..

Republicans, wake up! Dont beleive Rupert Murdochs biased FOX news BS, This is the only Candidiate that can definately beat Hillary..
NOT Ruperts buddy Rudy..

Vote Ron Paul in the Primaries or you will be guaranteed Hillary as our next President.

Ron Paul, A true fiscal conservative and social Liberal candidate..


agree substantially with this post...
re:
*************************************************
jerabaub writes: Thursday, November, 22, 2007 8:46 AM
Kudos for Ron Paul

**************************************************
I worked in the Reagan campaign in Hotlanta and have always been a true America First, minimalist government Republican. The neoCONS, Faux Republican profligate spenders, and especially the open borders/globalist ilk (see Presidente Jorge, Regularization Rudy) have totally soured me on RINOS. Ron Paul is right-- we have no business trying to convert > 1 BILLION Islamics (90% of whom mistrust us) to loving America with $2 TRILLION (per CBO) of taxpayer dollars.

We have simply thrown the first rock at the hornets' nest over there by taking out a country which had NOTHING to do with 9/11 with NO understanding of how Islamics really think. This is probably what the cerebral Ron Paul meant-- we unwittingly helped spawn 9/11 by making the weird, militant Islamics hate us even more. Then again, the neoCON progenitors of this faux WOT got what THEY wanted-- 18 new permanent bases as a buffer in Iraq.

Military Complex = Absolutely
No question! In fact it's more obvious than ever in MHO. Not to mention all the places we are in the world that we don't need to be ( Think South Korea - for crying out loud if the two countries are now talking to each other why are we still there ? ). However I'm not convinced that dismantling our military is the answer either. Seems like we could fix alot by getting rid of the career fat cats. You know, don't throw away all the apples, just the bad ones.

Let Us Bottom-Line this Whole Mess
and ask ourselves: "Is the worst Republican candidate better or worse for the United States of America than the best Democrat candidate?" Don't talk to me about the pain of choosing "the lesser of two evils," as that is just too tedious, just answer the question, and vote accordingly. I too wish that there was a presidential candidate who advocated limiting the Federal Government to its original prerogatives and powers as understood by the Founding Fathers, and expressed in the "Federalist Papers," and I would not care about the party label of such an electable candidate. As too often happens however, our quadrennial elections end up being about trying to avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I pray that no one here will allow his or her tendency toward intellectual narcissism get in the way of his or her love of country next November.

PS.
For anyone that supports Romney just remember what a Tax friendly state Massachusetts's is.

Or worried about scandals and corruption and more Taxes, look at Rudy's state of NY.

Or Huckabee's position on religion and social issues. According to Huckabee unless you have been saved by Jesus you are going to hell, so that means in Huckabee's eyes most Americans are going to burn in hell..

I could go on about the other candidates but I am sure someone else will elaborate more on what I am saying..

Ron Paul is the Republicans best and only shot of beating the Democrats..

BrianK
Lbts, Fl.

Republicans deserve to lose
My first vote ever cast was for Ronald Reagan and I have voted republican every since.

If Ron PAul does not get the nomination I will vote democrate or independent.

Giuliani, Romney, McCain, and Huckabee are all CFR members and one worlders.

Yes Hillory is a socialist but the Republicans are fascist!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hemp is illegal because oil companies and pharmacutical companies want to make money.

http://abovetheignorance.org/hemp.html

Pres Reagan was wrong on Lebannon
To KOB I will certainly say that Pres Reagan was wrong on Lebannon. After the Marine barracks was destroyed we should not have left in my opinion.

However, when Libyan agents blew up a Disco in Berlin killing US soldiers he bombed the heck out of Libya. Now I am not a Disco fan either but there he showed backbone.

I believe that the 9/11 attacks changed attitudes and while none of us can say what he would do now post 9/11 attack, I think the man who had the Balls to joke about attacking the evil empire and didn't quible about attacking foriegn countries would not cut and run now.

truthbetold
Don't do that!!!

You can write Ron Paul in on the ballot if he's not the nominee...Much better than voting dem or indy.


Have you heard?

Lebanon vs Iraq
Of course the big difference is that in Iraq we toppled not only the ruling regime, but the entire structure(security, economy, education, infrastructure, government services)was eradicated with the plan to build from the ground up American-style. This neo-con plan was the result of the alliance between Wolfowitz and Chalabi, a completely westernized Iraqi who hadn't even set foot in the country for years.

The billion dollar embassy, the permanent bases, and the re-building have and will continue to be one of the most expensive follies ever undertaken by an administration, and there's little guarantee that any of these actions will result in long-term stability sans a continued and treasury sapping military occupation.

Candidate positions on Wikepedia
Unlike all the other candidates Ron Pauls political positions are posted for all to see, even Wikepedia did a seperate page on him on issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Pau l

Ron Paul is the only Candidate I can find that has a Wikepedia page on issues only, all of the other candidates have 1(one) page on Wikepedia that is merely a Bio with no additional page listing political positions?

Why is this? Probably because if any of the other candidates had a political position page on Wikepedia they would spend every waking day changing it to fit there needs...

Thoughts?

BrianK
Lbts
Fl

Paul's candidacy is symptomatic
of the deep fissures in the GOP caused by its own capitulation to liberalism.

If the GOP were still attuned to its roots and core principles, there wouldn't be a level of disaffection as high as it is, which is what gives Paul's candidacy such traction.

If the GOP were still the party of Reagan or the 1994 Contract With America, instead of the party of northeastern liberalism as typified by Giuliani, Paul would simply be another candidate in the field whose ideas (other than on foreign policy) weren't that unusual.

The very notion that a third-party run by Paul could by itself result in a Hillary presidency speaks volumes.

When GOP Apologists try to rationalize their lack of principle by talking about Reagan's "big tent conservatism", they always miss the word "conservatism" and try to reinterpret it as meaning some kind of philosophy that appeals to liberals as well as Republicans. Nothing's further from the truth.

He was talking about a form of sheer and pure conservatism based on traditional American values that would draw in other CONSERVATIVES, such as Blue Dog Democrats, who are natural conservative allies, not yielding conservative values to chase some mythical and non-existent uncommitted ideological demographic, and particularly not liberals.

He had no use for liberalism. As he said, he "didn't leave the Democrat Party. The Democrat Party left me".

Let's stop chasing the Dems.



Trent
For me if the choice comes down to the worst Republican verses the worst Democrat I'll either vote third party or not at all. This party first stuff ended years ago for me and I have too much respect for my vote to give it to anyone not worthy of it, regardless of party.

Ron Paul
Townhall is doing itself a huge disservice by assaulting the greatest conservative since Ronald Reagan. This will affect its image with young conservatives for years and years to come.

We want a pro-life, small-government, secure-boarder Christian conservative! We want Ron Paul!

Are we really supposed to get excited about Guiliani and his ultra-liberal voting record???

December 16th, people!!! Lets bring back the constitution and take back America!!!!!

pianogirl
Off topic, but a very revealing article! Says Volumes. Thanks for the link.


Swan song for big gov't social cons?
Ron Paul reveals the problems in our party today. The social cons want big government enforcement of their visions for society. Huckabee is a symptom of that. He actually supports a federal ban on Internet poker, because he believes freedom is bad.

America needs Ron Paul. I'll vote for him in both the primary and in the general election.

I have no choice but to vote for RonPaul
The GOP no longer represents me.
I dont normally comment but this topic has been showing up for awhile now and I feel I must.
When I joined the GOP, some 25 years ago just after becoming of voting age it was because of the shared values and there belief that small fiscal conservatism Govt which was surely better then the big taxing central Govt position of the Democrats.
The current choice of candidates in the so called top tier no longer represent me, the only thing that has happened without question is after 9/11 the Republicans turned into Democrats.
Its a sad day for the GOP when the only trust fiscally conservative republican in the field is considered a kook, or crazy. This is more Democratic talk coming from the left.
So far track records mean something to me, and so far Ron Paul has been right about the War in Iraq voting against regime change under Clinton, voted against the patriot act, the military commissions act of 06, has never voted to raise taxes, never voted for an unbalanced budget. These are the things that concern me. The top tier candidates records and known Democratic strategists are commenting on how Good Guiliani, Thompson, Huckabee or Romney look, I think there is a problem in the party.

This party has been hijacked by Democrats, the entire new party line is straight out of the Democrats play book. The Democrats have always been sore losers now they have managed to get some of there own candidates into this party and no one seems to even notice.

As far as the analogy given, if Ron Paul runs as a third party I will vote for him, if he is not on the ballot I probably wont vote. I do see a new party forming, one to take this one back and the Neo Conservatives finding there own party that shares there views. Its not a popular view which is why they have infiltrated the GOP.

Lodestar: Well Said
"Dr. Paul forgets that there is a difference between how you address a strategy meeting of the converted/faithful and a nation which is trying to get a handle on your overall message. He comes across as shrill and obtuse."

This has been the problem for Libertarians in general and the Libertarian Party in particular. It is one thing to refer to a vision that the faithful already agree upon; it is quite another to try and bring others into your way of seeing things. The Paul campaign might have more appeal if it limited itself to those small government ideas that most libertarian-leaning republicans and independents already accept. For instance, Dr. Paul’s alarmist position on monetary policy evokes the “Chicken Little” response.

However, as others here have pointed out, Dr. Paul's position on Iraq is a non-starter. And the attitude that we are embroiled in a quagmire there because Bush & Co. mislead the country for some nefarious Neocon plot to impose democracy on an unwilling third world further dampens his appeal. The turmoil in the middle east has threatened our national interests since at least Jefferson (when he had to dispatch the marines there to demonstrate to the Barbary pirates that we would not let them interfere with our merchants), and, as others have also pointed out, every modern president since at least Carter has dropped the ball on this issue until now. So, for the Paul camp to label our current embroilment in Iraq as interventionalist makes them appear clueless about how the world turns.

What would the Prince of Peace do?
As far as the Iraq war (and many wars) If Jesus had is say what would he recommend we do?

Would Jesus be for more fighting or a peaceful solution?

This is a question that should be asked at Debates etc. to any Candidate that is Christian.

If they say that Jesus would be for Peace then why the contradiction in there policy views henceforth rejecting the advice of there savior?

Regards to all
BKusz
Lbts
Fl




Is Ron Paul really Lyndon Larouche?
"He is, with the help of insiders, waking the American People, who have been indocrinated by FOX and CNN, to the true nature of US foreign policies...and the blowback effect that it has on the American Citizens. Why should young people, college age and younger, be enthused about going to a foreign land to be maimed, sickened by depleted uranium, and, in essence, have their entire life ruined or ended for the sake of the billionaires at The Carlyle Group?"

I'm relatively sure that with very little effort one could find a strikingly similar query in a Lyndon Larouche pamphlet. This may be where Dr. Paul's supporters give the rest of the electorate the idea that he's a crack pot; some of his acolytes advance that idea.

not slick enough
Remember when we had had our fill of Slick Willie? How often do we deride politicians for being too smooth. Isn't this one of the major complaints about Mitt Romney? Hillary? Gulliani? Edwards?
So here you have a straight talker in Mr. Paul. Mr. Paul is not a fancy public speaker or polished actor or professional, lifetime politician. Some of you don't like him because of THAT!? Maybe not in particular but it turns you off.
Frankly, that is schitz. You don't want slick and you can't stand plain.
Many of you give the impression that if Paul was a bit more polished in his public persona and speaking delivery you would give him further consideration. To be frank once again, that is childish. That is reducing the selection of a president to a beauty contest, speech contest, or a popularity contest. TH readers and writers should know better and act as though all that matters is substance not style, delivery, looks, popularity; at least not during primary season, for crying out loud.
Paul has some negatives in the issues. That is where anyone concentrate any criticism. I for one agree with him on his philosophy of governing. What I don't hear him say is how he would implement his ideas. I think he would hit the brick wall called the beltway and be completely ineffective. I would hope I was wrong but there is not one peep from him about "HOW TO DO IT." I already know what needs to be done. We are together on that, for the most part.
Mr. Towery has sounded to me in the recent past as all but wishing out loud that Mr. Paul could win. He can't bring himself to believe it possible. He has a fixation on winning at any cost as long as the win is Republican. That would be noble if it were after the primary. At this point it can't have meaning other than to assume he is in the business of king maker. We don't need that.

Sam
Though my support is going to Thompson or Hunter, I agree with the thrust of your comment.

I agree that Paul's candidacy is actually a GOOD thing for the long-term prospects of conservatism in the country, win or lose.

We NEED to have this discussion.


Frankly, my biggest problem with Paul is his foreign/defense policy stance, which I find dangerously naive and rooted in a flawed interpretation of the Constitution. But that's not the topic of the discussion.


Clueless?
>So, for the Paul camp to label our current embroilment in Iraq as interventionalist makes them appear clueless about how the world turns.<

Hardly. It makes them look pragmatic. It is emotionally-driven nationalism, disguised as patriotism, that approves of building strawman threats, then overreacting to them in the name of national security.

Emotionally Driven Nationalism
Uh huh; that's why we have had up to 34 allies assisting us in Iraq. They all support emotionally driven American nationalism.

Taliesin
Doesn't matter whether we have allies or not.

The Monroe Doctrine, as well as Jefferson's dealing with the Barbary Pirates, established the principle of our national engagement in foreign wars to protect and further our national self-interest.


BrianR, What about..
Feel free to replace Europe with your Country and/or Region of choice.. PS. Good discussion!

"I have ever deemed it fundamental for the United States never to take active part in the quarrels of Europe. Their political interests are entirely distinct from ours. Their mutual jealousies, their balance of power, their complicated alliances, their forms and principles of government, are all foreign to us. They are nations of eternal war. All their energies are expended in the destruction of the labor, property and lives of their people." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1823. ME: 15:436

"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations--entangling alliances with none, I deem [one of] the essential principles of our government, and consequently [one of] those which ought to shape its administration." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural Address, 1801. ME 3:321

"We wish not to meddle with the internal affairs of any country, nor with the general affairs of Europe. Peace with all nations, and the right which that gives us with respect to all nations, are our object." --Thomas Jefferson to C. W. F. Dumas, 1793. ME 9:56

"We had better have no treaty than a bad one. It will not restore friendship, but keep us in a state of constant irritation." --Thomas Jefferson: The Anas, 1807. ME 1:467

"To take part in [the European] conflicts would be to divert our energies from creation to destruction. Our commerce is so valuable to them that they will be glad to purchase it when the only price we ask is to do us justice. I believe we have in our hands the means of peaceable coercion, and that the moment they see our government so united as that they can make use of it, they will for their own interest be disposed to do us justice. In this way [we] shall not be obliged by any treaty of confederation to go to war for injuries done to others." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan,

Discounting Superpower influence
>34 allies assisting us in Iraq. They all support emotionally driven American nationalism.<

No, they support getting support from the world's sole superpower. With the exception of Britain, that support has been mostly token, and most of it has been gone for some time.

Well, yes, Bksz
That actually is right in line with what I wrote, the key phrase being: "We wish not to meddle with the internal affairs of any country,"


The idea was to not entangle ourselves in OTHER countries' wars; but we can certainly go to war for our OWN purposes.

In the case of the Middle East and Iraq, I think assuring a stable and secure source of oil is most certainly in our national self-interest.

I couldn't give one hoot about establishing democracy in the region. IMO, it's not only a Fool's Errand, but it's up to them to do it for themselves.

Now, if as a side benefit for them, it happens... cool.


It is a good convo, btw, I agree!


It's All Not Relative
Discussions about Ron Paul are meaningless, since it is obvious that Hillary is our next President. And, probably a good thing, too. The country has shifted very strongly to the left and has bought into the dream of a Socialist utopia where the big Federal government can provide everything. In addition, the big media propaganda machine has convinced many that the war against radical Islam is not real and if Hillary is elected the threat will simply vanish.

The reason it is a good thing she will be elected is that she will be the first real, dedicated Marxist - socialist to lead this nation (Bill was NOT a socialist and evidently resisted her pressures during his terms). After four years of her "leadership" and seeing the real results of her Socialist agenda we may finally discredit this failed idealogy for good. Note, the rest of the world is turning more moderate, capitalist and open market oriented (see the move to flat tax systems, even in the former eastern bloc). Hillary wants a government managed economy and re-distribution of wealth, she has stated this very strongly, just listen - its failure will be obvious very quickly and she will serve just a single term.

The Monroe Doctrine
That's quite a stretch to use the Monroe Doctrine as a precedent for our national engagement in foreign wars.

The Monroe Doctrine was designed to keep Eastern Hemisphere countries from futher establishing or influencing expansion into the Western hemishphere.

How does it relate to Iraq?

nut case
The nuts are nutty about a nut. What's the news in that?
If Gravell and Kucinich and Ron Paul and Ahmadinejad flew away from earth in a spaceship, that would be news.

Tons of Republicans here
In response to one of Mr. Towery's minor points, I have always been a Republican, and voted that way, and I know many, many other staunchly Republican Ron Paul supporters.
He is saying many of the same things that President Bush said back in 2000 -- the problem is President Bush did not follow through with his promises of a traditional conservative stance: limited government, cut back on the welfare state, no nation building.

So it's not a huge switch to support Dr. Paul, for any Republican worth his salt. I notice several others in this forum who think the same way I do.



BrianR
(Part 1) I'm not saying our involvement in Iraq is not driven by our national interest; I'm suggesting that if it were solely a misguided emotional/patriotic response on the part of the USA, we would not likely have as many as 34 allies pitching in with us. I submit that the 34 other allies, at least at one juncture, agreed that confronting Saddam and Al Qaeda in Iraq was also in their national interests.

They have no emotional nationalistic investment in the USA; they also sense(d) a threat. Unfortunately, in places like Spain, Al Qaeda struck back and the electorate caved. Which in my mind proves that Al Qaeda will continue to use whatever means it can to terrorize the civilized world into ultimately knuckling under to their demands. A nuclear device acquired from Saddam or Iran immediately springs to mind.

BrianR
(Part 2) So, we go back to the original proposition: Do we fight them on their turf or ours? I vote for fighting it out on theirs. If you don't believe that's what's going on there, I refer you to Pianogirl's earlier post about the insurgents being 60 percent Saudi. If memory serves, Bin Ladin and many of his Al Qaeda minions are also Saudis.

In fact, I seem to remember that Wahabism, the radical Islamic philosophy which gave root to Al Qaeda, was founded in Saudi Arabia, which is driving distance to Iraq, if my geography is correct.

I may be going out on a limb here, but I'll bet Al Qaeda, Hezzbollah, Hamas, and the rest of the Jihadists would like the revenue from Iraq's oil to finance their efforts to bring Sharia to the civilized world. I suspect that they might like to remove Israel from the equasion, and I'll wager Israel wouldn't take that lying down.

Now maybe that scenario makes me a whacko. But suspending disbelief for a moment, imagine how having one or more of the above listed radical Islamic factions controlling Iraqi oil and/or Israel nuking her neighbors just might impact us here at home inside the USA. I submit that any or all of those things might interrupt our energy supply, drive up energy prices, and put us into an economic tailspin. I think that would be contrary to our national interest. I suspect that our allies might be of the same opinion.

The Libertarian candidate
Ron Paul may have registered Republican but he's a Libertarian and the polls reflect Libertarian support, as well as some Independents.

But he doesn't have the support of the Party and can never get the nomination. His views are too isolationist. You can argue that we should never have gotten involved in foreign wars. I would argue we have no business in Bosnia and bombing civilian targets in Serbia was criminal. But it won't turn back the clock. It won't undo the past. And it won't get Ron Paul the Republican nomination.

Pancho
Are you claiming all of the Western Hemisphere is in the US borders?

If not, your question becomes kind of silly, doesn't it?


So many self labeled conservatives
are trying desperately to distance Dr. Paul from Reagan. Paul was one of 6 congressmen to endorse Reagan during his first, unsuccessful political attempt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74JF0Xf6hPY

There's a link to Reagan's famous 64 speech.

I challenge you to differentiate Paul's politics to that of Reagan's.

Face the facts, were Reagan to run today, many of you would write him off as a "kook". Reagan enjoyed a strong following of both republicans and democrats, just as Paul does.

This isn't Reagan's party anymore, and dont kid yourself, if you think Paul is a kook, you have no right to consider yourself a Reagan republican.

Taliesin
I think we're actually on the same page.

I agree; better to fight them there than here.

I support the war; my big argument with it is that I don't feel we're being aggressive ENOUGH.

A bit too touchy-feely for me!




BrianR
Agreed. A little collatoral damage speaks volumes.

Hahahaha!
Kill 'em all, and let God sort 'em out!

Popular slogan from my war.


Suppositions
>confronting Saddam and Al Qaeda in Iraq<

There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq before the war for countries to be concerned about. The radical Ansar Al Islam(which it's claimed harbored Zarqawi) was based in a remote area of Kurdistan where Saddam's troops couldn't go near, and wasn't really, then or now, a part of Iraq.

But making the Al Qaeda/Saddam connection has been a neocon strategy since 9/11. It's just amazing that so many still drink that kool-aid as a basis for the invasion of Iraq.

Careful
You're about to unleash the religious lefties.

Pancho,
If you think Al Qaeda is our only Islamo-fascist enemy, you are sadly uninformed.


Uninformed
>If you think Al Qaeda is our only Islamo-fascist enemy, you are sadly uninformed.<

If that's what you took from anything I've written, then you need a reading comprehension program.

Now, how about explaining what the Monroe Doctrine and Iraq have to do with each other.


Taliesin
"In fact, I seem to remember that Wahabism, the radical Islamic philosophy which gave root to Al Qaeda, was founded in Saudi Arabia, which is driving distance to Iraq, if my geography is correct."

Yet current and past administrations have pandered to the Saudis who have a horrible human rights record and produce extremest who fight us. Why not invade Saudi to based on your logic? They certainly deserve it more with the one exception that they comply with our oil needs and we support them with weapons.


Propaganda
I know the biggest issue for some is the Foreign policy direction. If the war in Iraq had turned out any differently , at least some truth, I would be more inclined to agree that this policy we have now is the right one. But thats not what happened, and with the current GOP "hopefuls" all repeating the same nonsense brought to us by the same fools the led us into the war, I dont see how any rational person could see anything but more lies. There are no facts supporting this, and with the recent news coming from the British that since they left Basra, violence has dropped by 90% there is ever reason to believe we could leave, save a bunch of money and start focusing on matter that effect this country, right now and directly. Not support some new GOP "wishful" ideology.

While Saddam was a brutal dictator he has never posed a threat to the US, and to charge me and my family a total of 12k per person for every American to pay for this 3.5 trillion dollar war is one I can not support. Honestly I don't see why we need to be in Europe, Korea, Japan, these are expenditures that can be severed and put back into the US Economy.

Pancho
The Monroe Doctrine clearly establishes our principle of engaging in foreign wars to protect and further our national self-interest.


More comprehension problems
>Are you claiming all of the Western Hemisphere is in the US borders?<

Are you claiming Iraq was establishing beachheads in Guatemala? Claiming Uruguay as an Iraqi province? Trying to make Belize Iraq Honduras in a twisted retro joke of British Honduras?


Who are his real supporters?
I understand from a very intelligent and knowledgeable Radio Host that the bulk of his money came from individuals who are Nazi Sympathizers and that means Socialized Medicine and enventua Socialism.

Seems where between chosing between a Dem/Nazi Socialist or the get-along, go-along Republican Party.

Not much of a choice, but I'll vote for Huckabee, he is enough revolutionary for me.

Pancho
Let me set the Kool Aid aside, and I'll connect the dots for you.

Saddam was known to be working on building a nuke. (See Kenneth Pollock's "The Threatening Storm" - Pollock was a Clinton-era CIA Iraq specialist, not a Bush fan at all.) France, Germany, and Russia, none of which supported our intervention, did not attempt to deny the proposition, which suggests that they knew the correct to be correct.

Bin Laden and the rest of Al Qaeda have been picking away at us since the 1990s. Finally, in 2001 they pull off the 9/11 attacks. We quickly go after them in Afghanistan, where we know them to be supported by the Taliban.

We know Saddam and Al Qaeda were talking to each other before 9/11. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure out that if Saddam gets his nuke he will sell it to Al Qaeda, or Hezzbollah, or Hammas. Or just use it himself against either Saudi Arabia, Iran or Israel. In any event, we could not allow that to happen.

We invade Iraq. We take out Saddam. We state we will work to install a secular government. Al Qaeada, Hezzbollah, Hamas, Iran all see the idea of a secular Iraq as bad for business. They take up Bush's challenge to "Bring it On." We kill lots of bad guys and prevent them from controlling Iraq's oil fields. I think even Dr. Paul would concede that having any of those entities controlling Iraq's oil would not be in our national interest.

Wrong
The Monroe Doctrine is a U.S. doctrine which, on December 2, 1823, proclaimed that European powers would no longer colonize or interfere with the affairs of the newly independent nations of the Americas. The United States planned to stay neutral in wars between European powers and their colonies. However, if these latter types of wars were to occur in the Americas, the United States would view such action as hostile.

Pancho..... sigh
If you think our national self-interest stops at the Azores or something, you are incredibly naive.

It's that kind of thinking that'll have this country on its knees, paying $300/bbl of oil, while industry grinds to a slow and agonizing halt for lack of oil.

THAT'S where you and Paul drop the ball, big time.

Sticking our collective heads in the sand will be as effective for us as it is for ostriches.

Cheetahs gobble them up all the time.

That's the rub
We're stretched across the globe, our national reserve troops are deployed in Iraq, China is funding our war through loans, illegal immigrants are streaming across our borders, military personnel are having their deployments extended, and somehow Paul is weak on "defense"

This country hasn't been less secure since the Cuban missile crisis.

A vivid imagination
>We know Saddam and Al Qaeda were talking to each other before 9/11. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure out that if Saddam gets his nuke he will sell it to Al Qaeda, or Hezzbollah, or Hammas<

Actually, it does takes a lot of imagination, not to mention unsupportable suppositions as well as alliances between mortal enemies.

@ Brian
sigh indeed. Oil was $26 per barrel before we invaded Iraq. Now it's flirting with $100. What a wonderful strategy we've employed. Wait until we bomb Iran, it'll break $150 easily.

The thing about being a free market advocate is you have to believe in market forces, and not be a warmongering socialist. that is, unless I'm out of line and the republican party is no longer a free market advocate.

I'll take my $25 barrel of oil all day compared to this.

$1.15 per gallon before Iraq, $3.00 today.

Pancho
Last time, because discussing this with you is like talking to a fire hydrant.

The Monroe Doctrine established a PRINCIPLE.

Yes, it was formulated to address a specific occurrence, but the PRINCIPLE can is briadly applicable.

BTW, I ALSO mentioned Jefferson's fighting the Barbary Pirates. The Barbary Pirates were in the Mediterranean Sea. We went to war -- OVER THERE -- because they threatened our national self-interest.

Get it now?

BrianR
BrianR, After the first Oil crisis of the 70's the brilliant minds in Washington should have realized that alternative fuels and efficiency should have been the way to go and then perhaps we would not be in this mess of our kids dying for oil.

Instead what did Washington do? Create alliances with dictators and rouge leaders which without a doubt helps create the hatred of Americans all over the world.

The status quo leaders in Washington have brought this unfortunate war for oil upon us and sold it to us under the barely believable guise of fighting terrorism. Are we that gullible to believe that any other candidate other than Ron Paul will continue this madness?

Regards!


Ah-hahahahahaha, chrismatthews
That makes about as much sense as your namesake!

You're saying that our going into Iraq has caused the oil price increase?

Man! What a naive and simplistic world view you have!


I'll restate it since i was moderated.
Oil was $25 per barrel before we invaded Iraq.
Oil is flirting with $100 per barrel today.

Gas was $1.25 per gallon before we invaded Iraq.
Gas is $3.00 per gallon today.

Perhaps you should rethink your strategy.

Republicans are free market advocates, remember?

Ron Paul Supporters
Hey, I've got to admit that he is looking like the best candidate right now, on pretty much everything. The one hang up I have about Paul is his foreign policy. Its easy to speak in platitudes like "our founders wanted a non-interventionist foreign policy..." But how does that translate into policy? Like all candidates, his website is pretty, but virtually devoid of substance. I am really troubled by what I have heard from him regarding Iran.

Are there any Ron Paul supporters out there who can explain, or point me in the direction of some more information, about what he would base his foreign policy on? Specifically, I want to know about
-Iraq
-Iran
-Mideast in General
-Cuba
-Venezuela
-China
-Russia

That's my only hang up on Paul. If someone could get me the info or explain it to me, I'd appreciate it.

That's part of it, Bksz
Yeah, y'know, we have the largest oil shale deposits in the world, and Canada has the largest deposits of oil sands. I remember well, back in the 70s, the enviro-Nazis blocked any development of the shale.

This hemisphere could be energy-independant, but noooooooooo.... we might hurt some rat no one's ever heard of.

However, if that's the case, we gotta do what we gotta do, until someone ties the tree-huggers to the trees, and cuts the trees down on their heads.


lol Brian
We "went to war" with the barbary pirates because they were holding marines hostage. I guess you're counting on people not having any historical context. Did we invade Iraq because they were holding marines hostage? Nope. Therefore your point is meaningless.

I suppose interring Japanese Americans during world war 2 established a PRINCIPLE of arresting american citizens that commited no crime with no formal charge and no trial, thus suspending habeus and government agents self issuing warrants is peachy as well.

BTW, chrism
Who said I was a Republican?

I'm a conservative. Sometimes those two things are the same, sometimes they're not.

BTW, your restatement of your earlier assertion -- and I don't know what you mean by being "moderated" -- is still just as simplistic and naive as its first iteration.


Jack Shiite
You confuse my agreement with many of Dr. Paul's other positions - which I believe many mainstream Republicans also agree with - and a willingness on my part to explore his other positions with my disagreement with his position on the Iraq war. I would have continued the discussion last night, but my computer connection would not cooporate.

For the record: I am a card-carrying Libertarian. I am one of the whackos who would legalize drugs and set the non-violent drug offenders free. I would send half of the bureauracracy home with a pink slip on Monday morning. I also belong to the FairTax organization and Citizens Against Government Waste. So, Dr. Paul and I are kindered spirits.

However, unlike the typical Libertarian, I believe that projecting military might when it is in our national interest is better than waiting for the bad guys to start taking us out. I do not believe just being nice the the rest of the world will make them like us more. Preditors look for just such a mentality. I believe being stronger than your advisaries and demonstrating a willingness to use that strength prevents them from getting aggressive.

So, when it became clear to me that maintaining our military efforts in Iraq was in our national interest, I held my nose and voted for Bush in 2004, even though I had voted Libertarian in the previous elections. And I am committed to seeing that effort succeed. Dr. Paul is not, so I won't vote for him.

Brian R
Your insult is truly noted.

>discussing this with you is like talking to a fire hydrant.<

Your interpretation of the Monroe Doctrine is flawed. Nowhere is there the principle that

>The Monroe Doctrine clearly establishes our principle of engaging in foreign wars to protect and further our national self-interest.<

You made that up and you're wrong. It established the principle that we shall oppose any expansion(originally European) or futher colonization of the Americas.

Feel free to link to any respected mind that attempts to equate the Monroe Doctrine as a principle for involvement in foreign wars, sans a western hemisphere connection.

It wasn't even a nice try, especially resorting to an ad hominem attack in an attempt to disguise your ignorance.




@ Liberty Bob
In essence, Paul would pull all troops out of everywhere. That means socialist europe would have to start spending money to defend itself.

Second step would end all foreign aid programs, so no 10 billion to Pakistan, no 5 billion to Palestine, no 4 billion to N. Korea. No more propping up dictators, no more covert operations to assassinate elected officials in other countries.

We would engage other countries through trade.

No UN based wars, no WTO trade deficits, just a strong national defense, and an aggressive trade policy.

@ Brian R
You're not a conservative, conservatives are in essence constitutionalists. I personally don't care what you call yourself but someone should at least disabuse you of your misnomer.

As i pointed out earlier, oil was a lot cheaper pre-Iraq. You say that's coincidence i guess? But haven't bothered to educate me on why, you just smugly state it, as if you've impressed anyone with the accuracy of your analysis but yourself.

Why is gas $3 per gallon now, and why was it $1 per gallon prior to Iraq? I can't wait to hear the "non-simplistic" view.

BrianR: I HATE when you bring that up...

As Glenn Beck would say, "makes blood shoot out of my eyes....."

So, you think the tree huggers will rethink their position? (Not that it would help when we need it. Ten years from now, maybe...)

The answer is, "OF COURSE NOT!" They're still giving us a ration about the bugs and things when we're trying to get the damn wall built on our southern border.


Hey, thanks guys. Thanks a lot!!!!!






chris and punchy
That's right, chrism, Marines were hostage, and the Barbary Pirates were demanding ransom and TRIBUTE FROM ALL MARITIME TRAFFIC. Which is how the Marines became hostages to begin with.

Oooops! You forgot that part!

Kinda important. American national self-interest. We went to war.


paunchy, glad the insult was noted; you got it the hard way: you earned it.

So, the Doctrine didn't establish a principle, eh?


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

BTW, you can also look at my answer to your fellow Pual-bot, chrism, above.


Ya know, I've often written how I admire the Paul supporters' dedication to their guy, and I never ridicule them.

But when you guys make these ludicrous "arguments"..... man, it gives me pause. You can't even admit there are areas where your guy's bubble is off the beam. EVERY candidate is off on at least something. The only guy I agree with 100% is... me!


Yeah, Anne
But you gotta admit, the image of those geeks chained to a tree while it falls over and squashes them has a certain emotional appeal.

The pure irony, if nothing else.


How do we account for a cheaper dollar?
Look at the value of the dollar pre-Iraq compared to the value of the dollar now. How do we account for that?

chris, you're super-glued on stupid
Enough with the lame direct tie of oil price to Iraq.

That simply flouts your abject ignorance not only of foreign affairs, but economics, too.

I don't have time for such silliness.

BrianR: Ummmmm? Hadn't thought of that

Wait, let me visualize....





hold on... still visualizing.....







Yup, that's a good one! :-) LOL






I made an honest effort
to put Paul's position out here in from a principled conservative standpoint.

Im going to call it quits however. I'm following the long held truism.

Never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Frankly, i think your displayed ignorance and belligerance on the issue involved are as much an endorsement for Dr. Paul as anything i could ever put across.

Thank you for your assistance and Happy Thanksgiving.

And Just to Stir the Pot
I'm also Pro-Choice, a really popular position here at TH, and Dr. Paul is not. So I probably wouldn't vote for him anyway. So, unless the Libertarians get their head straight on the WOT, before election day, I may be reduced for voting for Rudy.

Too much!
Okay, Paulbots, you're all correct!

The dollar's gone in the bucket, oil prices have shot through the ceiling -- and oh, btw, so have metal prices, but I guess that doesn't matter -- the stock market's falling, banks are suffering massive loan defaults, terrorists are setting off bombs in Israel, my car's due for a tuneup, and


IT'S ALL BECAUSE WE'RE IN IRAQ!

You nutjobs remind me of the Fred Phelps whack-jobs today.

Actually i will respond once more
You "don't have time for such silliness" is a weak canard for "My position has no merit and i can't defend it with any level of intelligence."


Sorry to add to the conversation, i just wanted to site a good example of my previous point.

And for the record
I have a masters in business and economics from the University of Texas.

Gooooood, chris
Another educated fool.

Yeah, Jack
Nothing else in the world happened other than Iraq.

Nope. No massive economic and construction boom in China, just to mention one thing, nothing at all.

You people are... man, I think even "pathetic" is too kind.


I think I'll hit the gym
My deadweights are more intelligent than what I'm finding here.

But I do want to thank all of you for giving me reason to re-think my lack of ridicule in the past for Paul and his supporters.


RUDY????????????
Where the HELL did you get the idea I support Bald Hillary????

That's it. Bad to worse. Sayonara.


Hit the libraray
Instead of the gym Brian. Then maybe you won't embarass yourself like you did today with your obvious lack of knowledge about the Monroe Doctrine.

Where's the Nuke?
Like I said, Saddam was intent on building one, I didn't say he had it yet. I gave you a reference. It was a very think book with lots and lots of very detailed information on Saddam's nuclear and WMD programs.

One can assert that we didn't find stock piles of arms marked "Weapons of Mass Destruction." However, there is no denying that Saddam had built and used them before. So, to suggest that he would not have built or used them, including a nuke, again strikes me as naive. Pollack asserts that our public focus on "conventional" WMD instead of the nukes was to prevent Saddam from knowing what we knew. And since all the intel that Bush saw and the congressional intel committees saw before the war is not public, there's no way to know for sure that Saddam's nuclear program wasn't part of the discussion.

So me, I'm one of those who believes it's better to be safe than sorry. Especially when dealing with the likes of Saddam.

Guiliani
For what it's worth, my wife was/is a big Bill Clinton fan, but she's actually leaning toward Rudy, so he may have more appeal than the TH crowd would like to believe.

Good question Libertybob
It is easy to say no government, no taxes and no wars. rah. rah.

Here is the problem with isolationist in today’s crazy world. It is easy to say, we will just pick up our ball and bat and go home and refuse to play but that isn’t the way the world works. Just defining the problem would take a few volumes never mind make it all fit on a bumper sticker, which is what people want, they want others to do their thinking for them and just give me the bottom line. That is why newspapers are written for 2nd graders and news is in 20 second sound bites. It just isn’t that simple. Like it or not we just can’t go home and hope that nothing will happen for ever after, the meek might inherit the world but only after it has been destroyed. Iran is so close to nuclear capability it is scary and like it or not so was Saddam, it all was brought back to Syria so as not to be discovered.

I am about to state why I feel so strongly in my two big issues for the 2008 Presidency. If not checked, which I hope is not the case. Iran can supply small nuclear devices to radical groups. These can easily be brought into our country via our unprotected borders. The damage from these devices would be greater if ignited off the ground, but still would inflict major damage. Each of these devices would disable an entire large American city. It was thought because before GW that all our Presidents have been wimps that we would collapse after 9-11, it was a shock but a minor inconvenience that should have pissed off the country more than it did, but GW took all the right steps and has left Al-Queda regrouping and in capable at the moment to do us the kind of harm they would like. But only a temporary set back, soon they will strengthen and fully capable of pulling off the above mentioned mission.

With Ron Paul the nominee, I am afraid I would be forced to do something I haven’t done since 1972, vote Democratic or even worse not vote at all. Email me barrym@tds.net

Ron Paul is NOT a kook
He is a very smart man, he has integrity, and he has some interesting ideas. I like and agree with some of his basic philosophy.

Ron Paul is pro-life, he is a defender of the Constitution and fiscal responsibility. All things I agree with. He is anti-interventionist, which I agree with in theory, but I think he is wrong when it comes to the war on terror. I also don't think he has a chance to actually win the election.

However, if he runs as a third party candidate, I think he is just as likely to draw votes from Dems who want an anti-war alternative to Hillary, who is not really anti-war, as well as to the GOP. I am not sure he guarantees a Hillary win.

Maybe I'm wrong. I would prefer a President Paul to a President Clinton, but I would actually prefer a strong GOP candidate like Duncan Hunter. However, I can understand why many people like Ron Paul. I certainly don't want to insult him gratuitiously!

Paul may be excellent conservative but..
How good are his leadership skills?

I compared him earlier to Kim Campbell, but have to revise--a more accurate comparison is to Deborah Grey (MP of Beaver River since 1988***), who is known to be quite well on party principles (Reform, Alliance, now Conservative) but not known for leadership skills.


***Grey won the seat originally in a by-election, after the incumbent MP (who had been reelected) passed on prior to being resworn-in--against that MP's widow.

How Greenspan Got "Gold Fever"...
Tinsldr2 writes: Thursday, November, 22, 2007 10:17 AM
Ron Paul like Pres Reagan??? NOT

Pres Reagan nominated Allan Greenspan to the FED. Would Rep Paul have done so?"

Golly , Beave, I dunno. Let's ask 'im:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul236.html

Claim
"Just defining the problem would take a few volumes never mind make it all fit on a bumper sticker, which is what people want, they want others to do their thinking for them and just give me the bottom line. That is why newspapers are written for 2nd graders and news is in 20 second sound bites."

It also explains most of talk radio.

"It just isn’t that simple."

You got that right! Which produces this:

"Iran is so close to nuclear capability it is scary and like it or not so was Saddam, it all was brought back to Syria so as not to be discovered."

Where's the evidence for this claim about Syria, other than what some neocons are claiming on the radio? The stuff about Iran I've already heard.

No Question About It
No question about it: The thought of Ron Paul gaining traction scares the bejeebees out of the elitist, entrenched power establishment—which accounts for the plethora of disinformation being disseminated about the man. If you’re going to criticize Paul, then, at least, present an honest picture of his actual position on the issues.

Though Paul is foursquare against the Iraq war, he is neither a hippie, nor a pacifist. His principles are 180 degrees out from those of organizations such as Code Pink. Paul is for a strong military—to be used for the defense of the USA. Is it malice, or merely laziness and incompetence that occasion some to distort Ron Paul’s stances? Are some people incapable of doing a simple Google search?

Intelligent people sometimes possess what some others consider odd mannerisms. Don’t shoot the messenger. Are we going to take away Itzhak Perlman’s fiddle? To me, Ron Paul’s hand gestures don’t even register on the scale of annoyance compared to Bill Clinton’s habit of banging on the podium when he speaks.

Imagine a president beholden to no special interests except the US Constitution.

Unable to sue firearms manufacturers, or conduct house-to-house gun confiscations, the BATFE is currently engaging in a “backdoor” assault on your 2nd Amendment rights by revoking FFLs and closing down gun dealerships left and right for petty clerical errors. (Google “Red’s Trading Post” for a good intro to the problem). Let’s see... We have “awesome haircut & good hand gestures” Mitt the squirrel hunter, who responds by form letters to inquiries about his position on the BATFE; we have Rudy, the historical gun-grabber; and we have Ron, who is the only candidate to receive an A+ rating with the Gun Owners of America. Which candidate might possibly be inclined to put an end to BATFE abuse?

As Americans, we deserve whom we vote for.

Calabash
"Is it malice, or merely laziness and incompetence that occasion some to distort Ron Paul’s stances?"

I think it is more laziness, than anything else. Modern day "conservatives" can be every bit as bad as the "liberals" they complain about on talk radio. In short, talk radio to them is what tv is to the other when it comes to avoiding critical thinking and instead, emoting. It is a lot easier to believe something you heard for some of these people than to do some research.

I'm convince a number of folks who posted on this thread got their views by what some host said on the radio.

Ryan01
I hear you. I can listen to Michael Medved for about 20 seconds before looking for my barf bag.

response to libertybob
I tried responding to libertybob, but my response was too long so I had to start my own blog. Here is the address for libertybob and anyone else who is interested my take, at least, on Ron Paul's foreign policy position:

http://cometcorner.townhall.com/Default.aspx


for Pat
Pat writes: "He is, with the help of insiders, waking the American People, who have been indocrinated by FOX and CNN, to the true nature of US foreign policies"

The "true nature"??? What deep dark terrible secret about our foreign policy do you claim to have uncovered?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The overwhelming majority of Republicans don't think the United States Government is conducting an evil foreign policy. They may agree with some decisions and disagree with others, but on balance they are quite satisfied with the "true nature" of America as the world's mightiest superpower.

The only people who prattle about some sort of deep dark truth that has eluded the vast majority are people on the fringes: Ultra-right, ultra-left, conspiracy theorists, etc.

for Jackson
Jackson writes: "Ron Paul opposes the 'Israel First' mentality which is the de-facto basis of US foreign policy. "

Now you Ron Paul supporters are contradicting yourselves.

How does turning our back on Israel, one of America's staunchest friends for 60 years, square with what that other Ron Paul supporter here, Panther Cap, said about "He [Paul] believes in a mighty military and in having real friendships among the nations, cultivated through trade and diplomacy."

Israel is already a real friend of America. Why do you want to change that? Why does Ron Paul want to change that?

If you don't want America to come to the defense of other nations, why are they going to be "friends" with us? Do you really expect them to give us intelligence tips on al-Qaeda, and help us stop an al-Qaeda attack on America, if Ron Paul makes it clear he won't come to THEIR defense if THEY are attacked?

for chrismatthews
chrismatthews writes: "I challenge you to differentiate Paul's politics to that of Reagan's."

That's easy.

Reagan called the Soviet bloc an "evil empire" and predicted (correctly) that it would end up on the ash heap of history. For that he was vilified by the Left. But he was right.

Now when is Ron Paul going to say something comparable about the Islamist enemy we are fighting now? And I am NOT just referring to al-Qaeda. I am referring to the entire spectrum of radical Islam, including Ahmedinijad in Iran. Radical Islam is inimical to Western concepts of freedom and democracy, every bit as much as Communism was.

Reagan denounced Communism from every soapbox he could climb up on.

Ron Paul hasn't denounced radical Islam even once.

What has Ron Paul said he would actually DO in foreign policy about al-Qaeda, about Iran's building of a nuclear weapon, about the resurgent dictatorship in Russia, indeed about ANYTHING other than his single-minded obsession with Iraq?

rob
I visited your blog. You explain:

"Blowback is the idea that our interventions often come back to haunt us by producing the very thing they were intended to prevent."

Pretty much sums up the history of our CIA.


The Polls are Fixed!
Ron Paul is the top candidate. This site is against the US Constitution and Ron Paul.

America will prevail. Down with TownHall.com and down with the NEw World Order! Down with the North American Union. American sovereignty must be sustained!

SteveL
SteveL wrote:

"Ron Paul hasn't denounced radical Islam even once."

Ron Paul voted to invade Afghanistan and apprehend Usama Bin Laden, dead or alive. It works for me.

to BrianR:
"(Part 2) So, we go back to the original proposition: Do we fight them on their turf or ours? I vote for fighting it out on theirs."

We must distinguish who we are fighting. If we are fighting enemy combatants, we must get cooperation from the countries we wish to go into. If we are fighting nations we must declare war. It is irresponsible to assume we can just march into any country we want to fight any enemy we perceive.

Of course this means that we might get attacked here, but that is why we have a right to carry guns and a right to protect our property. Of course, when the government interfers with this right, as in the case of airlines and schools, there is increased danger of attack. But, there is no simple solution to terrorism, that is why it is an effective tactic. Over-reaction to terrorism is exactly the response terrorists want. We are playing into their hands when we react as if we are in terror - which is what we are doing.

No third party run
Dr. Paul has made his intentions clear; he will not run as a third party candidate. He will run for his congressional seat again.

What will happen to the Paul supporters if he does not win the general election is anybody's guess. But Paul has sewn some seeds, and they are creating deep roots within the electorate. This is to the good; business-as-usual in Washington will have a tough time henceforth. That is because millions of people, previously disinterested and distrusting of the political scene in D.C. have leaped from their beds to support Dr. Paul and his message of freedom, small government, accountability and adherance to the Constitution. The cat is pretty much out of the bag now.

Osama bin-Laden speaks about 9/11
You, the American people, I talk to you today about the best way to avoid another catastrophe and about war, its reasons and its consequences. And in that regard, I say to you that security is an important pillar of human life, and that free people do not compromise their security. Contrary to what Bush says and claims -- that we hate freedom --let him tell us then, "Why did we not attack Sweden?" It is known that those who hate freedom don't have souls with integrity, like the souls of those 19. May the mercy of God be upon them. We fought with you because we are free, and we don't put up with transgressions. We want to reclaim our nation. As you spoil our security, we will do so to you.

I wonder about you. Bush is still exercising confusion and misleading you and not telling you the true reason. Therefore, the motivations are still there for what happened to be repeated. And I will talk to you about the reason for those events, and I will be honest with you about the moments the decision was made so that you can ponder. And I tell you, God only knows, that we never had the intentions to destroy the towers.

But after the injustice was so much and we saw transgressions and the coalition between Americans and the Israelis against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it occurred to my mind that we deal with the towers. And these special events that directly and personally affected me go back to 1982 and what happened when America gave permission for Israel to invade Lebanon. And assistance was given by the American sixth fleet.

CONTINUED...

Osama bin-Laden speaks about 9/11
During those crucial moments, my mind was thinking about many things that are hard to describe. But they produced a feeling to refuse and reject injustice, and I had determination to punish the transgressors. And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon, it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same -- and that we had to destroy the towers in America so that they taste what we tasted, and they stop killing our women and children.

We found no difficulties in dealing with the Bush administration, because of the similarities of that administration and the regimes in our countries, half of which are run by the military and half of which are run by monarchs. And our experience is vast with them. And those two kinds are full of arrogance and taking money illegally.

The resemblance started when Bush Sr. visited the area, when some of our own were impressed by America and were hoping that the visits would affect and influence our countries. Then, what happened was that he was impressed by the monarchies and the military regimes, and he was jealous of them staying in power for tens of years, embezzling the public money without any accountability. And he moved the tyranny and suppression of freedom to his own country, and they called it the Patriot Act, under the disguise of fighting terrorism. And Bush, the father, found it good to install his children as governors and leaders.

CONTINUED...

Osama bin-Laden speaks about 9/11
It is easy for us to provoke and bait this administration. All that we have to do is to send two mujahidin to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qaida, in order to make the generals race there and cause America to suffer human, economic, and political losses without their achieving anything of note other than some benefits for their private corporations. This is in addition to our having experience in using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers, as we, alongside the mujahidin, bled Russia for 10 years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat.

Every dollar of al-Qaeda defeated a million dollars, by the permission of Allah, besides the loss of a huge number of jobs. As for the economic deficit, it has reached record astronomical numbers estimated to total more than a trillion dollars. It is true that this shows that al-Qaeda has gained, but on the other hand it shows that the Bush administration has also gained, something that anyone who looks at the size of the contracts acquired by the shady Bush administration-linked mega-corporations, like Halliburton and its kind, will be convinced. And it all shows that the real loser is you. It is the American people and their economy. The darkness of black gold blurred Bush's vision and insight, and he gave priority to private interests over the public interests of America. So the war went ahead, the death toll rose, the American economy bled, and Bush became embroiled in the swamps of Iraq that threaten his future.

Your security is not in the hands of Bush or al-Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands. Any nation that does not attack us will not be attacked.

HUNTER 2008


Securing the border and enforcing the law is the only way we get to keep our rule of law, our representative Republic, and our Constitution. We must elect a President who WILL secure the border and enforce the law. If citizenship becomes meaningless, this will no longer be the United States of America.

The so-called "top tier" will not get out the voters necessary for a GOP win. Increasing turnout is the key. Give people something to vote for. Not just the lesser of two evils. Won't work this time. People are fed up with the inundation of illegal aliens. They would come out in droves for the clear choice of D=amnesty or R=enforcement. They will stay home if they both equal amnesty.

There is a huge majority of American citizens waiting for someone to pledge to uphold the laws and secure the borders, let's not ignore them any more.

http://www.gohunter08.com

Ron Paul is going to win

"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing."

-Dwight D. Eisenhower


Get on the right side of history so one day you can proudly proclaim to your FREE grandchildren that you supported an honorable man who brought America back from the brink.


js: And you have the hubris to say

I'm disrespectful, etc.

"I hear a turkey calling me (no, it isn't you, Anne :)"


Amazing! Absolutely amazing!!!!

And you still don't get it when many many people continually comment on how despicable and reprehensible the paulists are.





SteveL
If we were to back off from the ME, what rationale would al Qaeda have for attacking us?

As far as coming to the aid of our friends, Dr. Paul believes that it is up to Congress to declare war. He personally subscribes to Augustine's theory of "just war":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war

Did you know that Ron Paul actually introduced a bill to declare war on Iraq? Congress did not bite, preferring to delegate power to the President. Why? Because they did not wish to commit themselves, so they could later say that they did not agree with Bush's conduct of the war if they so desired, or that they were misinformed as to what the mission was.

Many people who are pro-Israel believe that our aid to Israel hurts her cause, by creating dependency upon the U.S. and by unduly influencing Israel's policies. Further reading here:

http://zionistsforronpaul.blogspot.com/

Did you know that our aid is actually corporate welfare for U.S. military contractors? That's right, Israel must spend the money with them.

Also, my understanding is that we are giving equivalent aid to friendly (to us, not necessarily Israel) countries in the ME. So all we are doing is adding to the general militarization of the region, to the benefit of guess who?

Yo, rhys
And you believe Osama? Like you believe any wannabee dictator or caliph? Just like you would have believed Hitler when he said the Sudetenland was his last territorial interest in Europe? You believe a devout Mohammedan whose "scriptures" AUTHORIZE him to lie to any non-Mohammedan?

I find that distressing.