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Thursday, November 15, 2007
Matt Barber :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Golden Compass Has no Moral Compass
by Matt Barber
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With its fantasy world backdrop, sympathetic talking animals and extravagant battle scenes, the new movie, The Golden Compass, may resemble C.S. Lewis’ The Chronicles of Narnia. But parents be advised, this film — which is very intentionally being marketed toward children — is nothing of the sort.

The Golden Compass was created with the benefit of a multimillion dollar budget and big name actors such as Nicole Kidman, Kevin Bacon, and Sam Elliot. It opens December 7, and promises to be action-packed and visually stunning in the epic tradition of Narnia or The Lord of the Rings.

But upon closer review, it becomes abundantly clear that both this movie and the man behind it have a very certain anti-Christian axe to grind.

Based on the first of three secular humanist children’s books by avowed atheist and British author Phillip Pullman, The Golden Compass provides the opening “down with God” salvo in the author’s His Dark Materials trilogy.

Pullman leaves little question as to his books’ central theme. “I don’t profess any religion,” he is quoted as saying. “I don’t think it’s possible that there is a God; I have the greatest difficulty understanding what is meant by the words ‘spiritual’ or ‘spirituality.’”

Ironically, Pullman’s confident pronouncement that there is no God appears to take an exclusive backseat to his hatred for the very God he denies. “My books are about killing God,” he told The Sydney Morning Herald in a 2003 interview. And in the trilogy’s final offering, The Amber Spyglass, he does just that — he knocks off the Almighty in a delusional fit of grandeur.

Pullman’s books drip with moral relativism, that deceptively sweet, yet fruitless nectar of the secular humanist. His portrayal of God — which is clearly intended to personify the Christian church — is that of an evil authoritarian who spitefully stifles human creativity, arbitrarily punishing mankind for very naturally and properly entertaining base impulses with unfettered license.

In a telling and pivotal moment in the series, a former nun named “Mary Malone,” who is a central character, poignantly reflects upon her realization that God does not exist:

“There’s no one to fret, no one to condemn, no one to bless me for being a good girl, no one to punish me for being wicked. Heaven was empty. I didn’t know whether God had died, or whether there never had been a God at all.”

And isn’t that what atheism is all about, really? Our fallen desire to have, “no one to punish [us] for being wicked.” If we can convince ourselves that there is no God, then we escape accountability for what we do, or so we believe. It’s not so much a-theism as it is anti-theism. In fact, atheism is every bit a religion as any other. But in the church of the non-believer, the high priest is cloaked beneath the vestment of pseudo-“science” and parishioners worship at the altar of moral anarchy.

Still, like so much else in our culture, Pullman's aversion to God would appear to boil down to sex. Mary Malone explains that her desire for sex was her primary purpose for abandoning the God in Whom she no longer believes. “And I thought: am I really going to spend the rest of my life without ever feeling that again? … And I took the crucifix from around my neck and I threw it in the sea. That was it. All over. Gone. … So, that was how I stopped being a nun,” she recounts.

Author and attorney David Limbaugh sums up the anti-theist condition succinctly:

“It seems the most militant ‘anti-theist’ these days are either arrogant scientists or unrestrained licentious types whose main obstacles to faith are not intellectual, but moral — and that moral obstacle seems invariably to be sex … sexual perversion, while perhaps not the worst sin, especially when compared to pride, for example, seems to be the one galvanizing the modern opponents of God.”

Psalm 14:1 tells us, “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.”

With The Golden Compass, Phillip Pullman shares his heart with us — a heart that says, “There is no God.” And he clearly wants to influence your child’s heart as well. This movie’s creation — or chance materialization, take your pick — has a specific agenda. It is clearly targeted toward unsuspecting children with the furtive goal of enlisting the next generation of “fools.”

But do as he will, the loving God Whom Pullman rejects is bigger than all that. He’s so big, in fact, that He gave his only Son for you, me, and yes, Phillip Pullman.

Just the same, I think I’ll spend my eleven bucks somewhere else.

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About The Author
J. Matt Barber is Director of Cultural Affairs with Liberty Counsel and also serves as Associate Dean with Liberty University School of Law.
 
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Matt Barber
Can anyone tell me Matt Barber's win loss record when he was boxing? I am certain that the poor fellow suffers from brain damage.

Am I In Bizarroworld?
If what he says is true that Aetheism is in itself a religion, then isn't this whole campaign against the Golden Compass an afront towards other people's religious (aetheist) beliefs? As far as I can tell, there were never any organized boycotts or picket lines outside of movie theaters that showed "The Passion Of The Christ" or "The Chronicles Of Narnia". It wasn't so much the case when it came to Christ-bashing movies like "The Da Vinci Code". It just seems to me that boycotts, which are usually a last desperate move, are the first step for conservative Christians to go attack anything that even questions their beliefs. This country was founded on a quest for never-ending debate, so isn't it a bit premature to throw in the towel and just boycott for the sake of avoiding being corrected? After all, the church was wrong about the Earth being the center of the universe.

Am I In Bizarroworld?
If what he says is true that Aetheism is in itself a religion, then isn't this whole campaign against the Golden Compass an afront towards other people's religious (aetheist) beliefs? As far as I can tell, there were never any organized boycotts or picket lines outside of movie theaters that showed "The Passion Of The Christ" or "The Chronicles Of Narnia". It wasn't so much the case when it came to Christ-bashing movies like "The Da Vinci Code". It just seems to me that boycotts, which are usually a last desperate move, are the first step for conservative Christians to go attack anything that even questions their beliefs. This country was founded on a quest for never-ending debate, so isn't it a bit premature to throw in the towel and just boycott for the sake of avoiding being corrected? After all, the church was wrong about the Earth being the center of the universe.

Vacuous
"... If we can convince ourselves that there is no God, then we escape accountability for what we do, or so we believe..."

>>

First, by and large, atheists do not "convince [them]selves that there is no God". Rather, in varying degrees, different factors lead atheists to that conclusion. As often as not, Reason combined with the lack of extra-Biblical evidence is the catalyst for their conclusion.

Second, by and large, atheists certainly do not believe that no god means no accountability. Indeed, the vast majority of atheists recognize and accept civil, social, legal, and even natural consequences for their actions.

Look at me, look at me.
Atheism may not be a religion but secularism sure as hell is. It is a religion where man appoints himself as deity, which is pretty good if you're vain and egocentric enough to believe it.

That said, what a sad life it must be believing in nothing bigger than oneself. The comments of non-believers suggest it is sad indeed.

The Golden Compass
If you attack Matt instead of what he says, it indicates that you are not able to refute what he says.

Christian themed movies affirm Christian principles but are not made to trash other faiths.

The books on which this movie is based according to the author were written to undermine Christian principles. This is the difference between this movie and Christian themed movies.

Do Christians "own" fantasy?
Despite being an atheist, or at least an agnostic, I enjoy the work of Tolkien and even the more overtly religious C.S. Lewis Narnia books. (This is not as odd as it may sound. If I can suspend my disbelief in elves and magic spells for the sake of a good story, I can suspend my disbelief in God-- or Aslan-- as well. On the other hand, when I put down the book or leave the theater, I don't expect friendly elves or wizards toh elp me with my real-life problems.) And I haven't, at least yet, read the Pullman books, or, obviously, seen the movie.

However, it's really arrogant for Christians to go into a snit over the existence of a non-Christian work of fantasy, if if they somehow "owned" the realm of fantasy. (Almost as arrogant as believing that the *only* possible "moral compass" is a belief in religion, preferably their religion.)

And can we drop the silly idea that all atheism "boils down to" the desire to have wild and free sex without being punished by God? This reduction of atheism to wishful thinking can just as well, or better, be applied to theism. Theists believe in God because they prefer the wishful thinking of Heaven and eternal life and reunion with lost loved ones, to the reality that death is permanent extinction. Or so an "anti-theist" might fairly assume, anyway. Besides, as C. S. Lewis himself once pointed out, even if you believe someone's arguments (for either theism or atheism, or on other issues) are motivated by personal considerations and desires, you still need to deal with the arguments themselves. "You believe that because you want to believe it" is not automatically the same thing as "What you believe is wrong".

It is a childrens fantasy story
Such a fuss, this first book is fairly innocuous for a fantasy tale - the movie is being over-hyped for the adult stars, but the kids are the story.

Who cares what the author believes, he fumbles the concept if you actually read all three books.

Devon writes:
"That said, what a sad life it must be believing in nothing bigger than oneself. The comments of non-believers suggest it is sad indeed."

As a secular humanist, I can assure that I do believe in something bigger than myself, and that is our limitless potential. And that said, so far it has been a very good life.

I loved the book series!
Its fun fantasy and I wouldn't look to The Golden Compass, The Subtle Knife, or The Amber Spyglass for anything other than necessary escapism.

I also adore Harry Potter, The Chronicles of Chrestomanci; Lirael, Abhorsen, and Sabriel series (Garth Nix), The Chronicles of Narnia, The Lord of the Rings Trilogy, etc...

Good fantasy doesn't have to teach moral lessons.

Isn't it wonderful!
That children are still reading great books like these and J.K. Rowling's! I really wouldn't worry about the religous leanings of the books your children are reading, just thank god (or whatever) they are reading. I would encourage more reading! Start them as toddlers with my book "Millions of Cats" and go from there.

No great outrage about gays/lesbians
Why did Mr. Barber pull his punches this week on the subject of the great GLBT agenda?

To be an atheist
is to be a fool.

What happened to the Lewis sequel?
I find it fascinating that the sequel to The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe has been dropped, and this has been offered instead.

(Although, Susan's nagging at the resurrection of Aslan was not a real treat. In fact, she nagged through the whole LWW movie.)


To CT
You can believe in God but be an agnostic. I would hope that you would Google Jefferson's Bible and read how Thomas Jefferson edited the New Testament. You might find it quite interesting. I could not believe any presidential candidate today being elected if he/she did anything like what Jefferson did to the New Testament.

The Golden Compass
is Turkish Delight.

Fair Warning
I think that it is perfectly reasonable to warn Christian parents about the thematic content of this movie so that they can make their own decision about whether to take their kids to see it.

I also think that it is fair to expose Pullman's outright contempt for Christianity. This does not mean that all atheists hate Christianity, but Pullman has stated that he does. The label "anti-theist" would certainly apply to him.

Finally, Pullman would have no moral authority to complain about boycotting his movie, given his vicious campaign to keep people from going to see "The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe".

Not Harry Potter
I am an Evangelical, and I really like the Harry Potter series, because it recognizes good and evil, the corrupting effect of power, and has many classical themes that draw on Christian ideas. JK Rowling believes in God, goes to church, and does not share Pullman's hateful worldview.

Don't fret about it
This movie will tank, just as other hateful movies have. Robert Redford's new antiwar movie has tanked. People are generally good and decent and will support stories that are good and decent.

I have never read Pullman. A very learned atheist friend did and he found them boring and incoherent. I will take his word for it.

WRH Bill
Some good arguments there that I hope Christians pay attention to. I would only suggest that there is a difference between fantasy that is "not Christian", which I have no problem with, and fantasy which the author admits is borne out of hatred for Christianity.

We are not declaring his work "invalid", simply explaining our objections to it.

They still don't play Wagner in Israel.

Kadima
Kadima wrote: "The Golden Compass
is Turkish Delight."

I wish I could be as succinct as you.

So
If a Christian assesses a new movie, transparently using orthodox Christianity as his basis for analysis, and offers his analysis to Christians, and others of course, so that readers may decide to watch the movie or not, that's called a "snit?" Relax Bill. Christians, and everyone else, are assessing things through their own belief systems and will continue to do so. So, you may think that the author of this article is in a snit, but for those who share a similar world view, he is merely suggesting to them to save eleven bucks and skip the movie. No need to get into a snit over his assessment.

I don't get it...
I don't understand what the threat is if others don't believe in Christianity .

If you truly have faith the fact someone else doesn't why should that bother you.

As for those who are anti-Christian doesn't the bible say there will always be those who will not believe and seek to destroy your faith and it's your job not to ever loss faith.

Great books
I've read His Dark Materials, and am halfway through reading them again. They are fantastic books and I can't wait to see what it comes out like on the big screen. This movie might tank in the States, but globally I would expect a lot of eager anticpation at its release. It's just a great, original, exciting story, which I very much doubt Barber has even taken the time to read.

A HOLLYWOOD REPUBLICAN SPEAKS OUT
As a Republican and a movie producer, I can say that Hollywood is grossly out of touch with America and our values. As long as the public buys tickets, they'll keep making more trash. It is heartening to see the latest crop of anti-war/anti-Bush movies bomb one after another at the box-office. Studios are accountable to shareholders, and when their liberal politics starts to affect the bottom line, that's when they'll have to change their tune.

For more on liberal Hollywood, visit my blog at townhall or http://www.theundercoverconservative.com.

moral compasses and priorities...
I would be far more impressed if the good folks at Townhall were coming out in their droves to complain about, for example, "American Gangster". Although this is not a movie I have seen (it only came out today) I have just read the reiew of it in today's London Independent. It got one star out of five and the reviewer, Anthony Quinn, finished his review off by calling the movie "repulsively stupid". Its subject matter is gangsters - and in this case, seemingly, the glorification of one Frank Lucas, a 1970's heroin kingpin.
Ultimately, The Golden Compass is pure fantasy and its atheism is unlikely to change anyone's views on religion. If you're religious, you'll stay religious and probably not see it. But if you're an atheist or agnostic, or even an open minded religious fan of fantasy (such people do exist) it won't change that either - in other words, it is unlikely to affect anyone in any way.
However, the subject matter of "American Gangster" is very different - the social side effects of the hard drug trade affect most of us in one way or another and any movie that glorifies the "achievements" of a gangster should be treated with the contempt it deserves. Drugs, crime, murder, the proliferation of guns and the glorification of the gangster lifestyle affect all of us, and we have no choice in the matter. Religion, or lack of, is a very private choice everyone makes. In a free country, no-one can force religion or lack of on to anyone against their will. But gansterism blights our lives whether we want it to or not.
Despite this, the only movie Townhall has a gripe with is a fantasy written by an avowed atheist. Isn't that getting priorities totally messed up?

The point being...
... that no-one is going to watch The Golden Compass and think, right, I'm going to go and find me a talking armoured polar bear and head off into another world to kill God. At least, if they do all they will get is either mauled to death and snacked by a bear or locked up in the funny farm. However, American Gangster is real, and who is to say that any kid watching it won't think to themselves "boy, what glamour, what power, it's the gangster life for me". That is a real issue; talking daemons are not.

Interesting!
I've read His Dark Materials too and found them badly written and manipulative. The only good thing about reading them was that I was compelled to dig A Wrinkle in Time out of the storage boxes to fill my mind with a truly well-written fantasy and erase Pullman's tripe.

It may come as a surprise to some of you, but Christian parents feel it is their responsibility to raise our children with Christian values. That means that, yes, we want to know when there's a movie or a book series out that seems harmless on the surface, but teaches anti-Christian values (which, let's face it, killing God seems pretty anti-Christian). Some of us (me, for example) can read fast enough to consume one of Pullman's books in an hour in front of the fire at Barnes & Noble, but for those parents without the time or inclination to do so, it's helpful to have people like Matt to do it for them.

If, on the other hand, you don't really care what you fill your children's minds with -- that's okay. Take them to the movie. Buy them the books. Just don't be surprised when their moral compass doesn't develop as it should. Morality must be taught. None of us is born with it. I know, that's not a politically correct belief these days, but reality is so often not politically correct.

aurorawatcher
It is interesting that you have at least read the books - and although I won't take issue with your view of how well they are written (to each their own; the general consensus among professional reviewers is that they are brilliantly written) but I am surprised that someone who sounds like they have a brain would be so feareful of a book that you wouldn't let your children read it. There will come a time when you have no control over what your children do, read, watch or listen to. It's called adulthood. You clearly have a desite to exhert control over what your children think - therefore, would it not be advisable to let them read the book now so that you can discuss its contents (i.e tell them how wrong it is) with them now rather than let them decide for themselves? Isn't it interesting how many children born to vicars or who went to very religious schools go off the rails once they are freed...

Critical Bill
If a parent has taught her child to know the difference between good writing and bad writing -- even if this is done by enjoying Mystery Science 3000 together -- then these books will not threaten his moral compass any more than Sex And The City does. You cannot start this process too young; pointing out the socialist messages in some of the Dr.Seuss books (for example the one about the Lorax, and Yertle the Turtle) can be instructive and shock the daylights out of the preschool teacher into the bargain.

I still remember the look on the faces of various Mommies when my little niece stopped in Barbieland at FAO Schwarz to say conversationally, *There is Barbie. She is a drain on society.* And the deepening consternation when I asked her what that meant and she explained to me that Barbie was all about buying things, not about making things or doing things. Barbie, she said, is a taker not a giver. She was four years old. Yes, she was repeating what she had learned at her mothers knee. But she had already learned that what you do is more important than what you have.

Incidentally, she and the boys staged a Titanic battle that used their Power Ranger, Ninja Turtle, Army and Air Force action figures and Polly Pockets dolls -- to re-enact Lord of the Rings from the old Ralph Bakshi animation video. Nothing like hearing a Ninja Turtle intone to a fleeing Polly Pocket, COME BACK! COME BACK! TO MORDOR WE WILL TAKE YOU!

Instead of trying to ban or banish books, teach your kids to recognize good and evil and they will decide.

AudiR10
So, we agree really don't we...? Let them read the books, discuss them and let them make their own minds up. Morality is not a religious thing, it is something we are taught and learn from our parents, regardless of their religion or lack of. I know christians who make morally dubious judgements, just as I know many non-christians who have very strong morals. Lyra, the lead character of His Dark Materials, is undoubtedly moral - she has a very strong sense of right from wrong, she is fiercely loyal to those who love her and has many qualities I hope my own children develop.

The Golden Compass
Mr. Pullman states that he does not know what spirituality is yet he is a published author. Can you see the spoken word, yet it remains a fact. Can you see the wind, yet it remains a fact. Can you possible believe that every star and planet suddenly blew up into existence. Can you possible believe that evolution occurs. Why hasn't another sapian evolved into a man yet.

Spirituality is more than an idea it is part of the triune nature of mankind, body, soul and spirit. Atheism or anti-theism must be a debilitating belief. A belief that everything you are and have been is over when you die, or that your very essence ceases to exist forever. How sad. How demoralizing. These articles speak of a God who punishes when you are wicked. What about the God that loves so unconditionally that he lights your night with the moon so you are not in darkness and brightens your day with the sun to refresh your weary bones. Or the God that created the flowers and gives us those bouquets each and every day. Or the rain that refreshes the earth and the soft, warm winds that caress the earth dry each day. What about the God who loved me so much, that He said that He would give Him as a sacrifice just so that I could be reunited with Him.

I am the mother of a son. It would destroy me to see anything happen to him that he was responsible for. It would devastate me to see something happen to him that he was NOT responsible for but chose to take the blame for.

Who cares?
Believe what you want to believe, and don't try to shove it down other people's throats.

Alien vs. Predator Requim
I saw a movie poster last night for AVPR. I thought to myself, "why". The first AVP tanked so bad in the theater its not funny. How could the sequel possibly get made?

Then of course there is Evan Almighty. Hollywood spent $200 million dollars on a Christian conscious movie that bombed big time.

What cracks me up is that people talk about Hollywood as if it is a cohesive entity. Clearly the people who made AVPR and Evan Almighty are not the same people.

I think Matt's off base. If you look at the box office take for the year, what are the big winners? Shrek, the Penguin movie, etc.

Family movies. That's a good thing and I think that Hollywood will now turn almost any comic book into a movie and see lots of family stuff because it makes money.

But why AVPR got made when so many other science fiction sequels could be had is beyond reason. Just someone's stupid decision. I do not believe there was some conspiracy there, just stupidity.

When it comes to Hollywood, right wing Evangelicals start sounding an awful lot like the liberals who harp about 9/11 conspiracies.

The right wing attributes far more intelligence and orchestration to Hollywood than is even remotely possible.

Who?
"These articles speak of a God who punishes when you are wicked. What about the God that loves so unconditionally that he lights your night with the moon so you are not in darkness and brightens your day with the sun to refresh your weary bones. "

::::Who are the moons of the other planets for?::::::


Matt Barber...
Is he kidding? Wow...he's this bent out of shape because a MOVIE doesn't glorify Christianity? Big deal!
Such movies are in the minority and if he and many others aren't careful, one would glean that Christianity is so fragile, a MOVIE or two is going to make or break the religion.
If that's so, the problem is in the lack of persuasion without government doing it for you. Either by censoring or restriction.
And with such policies, die imagination, creativity and diversity.

We live in a country of freedom and choices. And his last line says it all about such freedom, don't go.
Don't pay. Don't sweat it.
And aetheists having as much freedom and choice in movies too, is how America rolls.
Christianity has a long, long legacy of brilliant and enduring works of art that's glorified it.
A Hollywood movie can hardly compete, and Matt Barber needs to get a grip on proportion and perspective.



depending
Depending on who those that are deeply religious think they are talking to, God IS vengeful, punishes infidels and heretics and aetheists.
The Left Behind series is rife with godly violence and retribution.
You'd think god was an all powerful destroyer, instead of a loving, nurturing creator that gave us a glorious paintbox with which to go and create a world of our own as well.

So if there is a counterweight to the usual fear and ignorance tactics of more influential religions, all the better.
Religious people have and do make horrible mistakes with their attitudes about certainties and absolutes.
Disregarding the fact that little IS certain, or well known about our fellow human beings or a lot else in our world.




WONDER and WONDER-WARS
WONDER has been the battleground between writer and religionist for a plog time; ergo, Greek and Roman mythology. G L. Frank Baum put character Alice in “Wonderland” and L. Frank Baum created a mystical land with the “Wizard of Oz” and both these adventures into pure fiction can be construes as challenges to the rudiments and existence of god-belief or spiritual faith.

The “Wizard” can be thought to be an example of a godlike life controller whose identity makes the thesis of god existence foolish, and Alice goes into “Wonderland” can be construed as an adventure exploring fanciful death. A child taking a journey underground is precise as to what happens to the old adults after they die. Lewis Carroll caught the wonderment children experience when they see their first corpse. So being buried – in the child's mind – opens up a new journey and new life so when Alice follows the White Rabbit she is following someone she loves into a new life after death. Alice in Wonderland is not Dante’s Inferno but the objective is the same; ergo, something else is happening and wonder is the key way to find out just what it is.

Dabbling in the metaphysical needs some form of analogy as in the case of Alice. Lewis Carroll actually wrote her journey into [wonder-head] which is the place for all such fiction. But for the “Wonder” to achieve long term interest and amazement it must have purpose of an extraordinary nature. Evolving from Wonderland to [wonder-head] and then on to [wonder-wars] for anything other than reasons of fashion does not fit sustainability criteria.


WONDERS and WONDERWARS
Madelyn Murray O’Hare (name recognition quickly fading) – claiming her superior IQ reading the Bible cover to cover six times - conceded that the Bible is a book of wonderful stories. Her personal narrative in Playboy was one of depression, frustration and anger to which she lashed out at all religious people especially Catholics. "Wonder-wars”, if this is what Mr. Pullman has done, is choosing a self destructive alternative reminiscent of Nietzsche whose public relevance today is slowly disappearing into absurdity.

Now why do you suppose...
...serious science fiction and fantasy fans avidly read, watch, and enjoy well-written and well-produced pro-Christian, anti-Christian, and completely non-religious science fiction and fantasy stories while Christian parents quake in their boots at the thought of their little darlings' brains being addled by an anti-Christian fantasy?

Who is more open? Who is the explorer? Who learns more? Who learns best?

My bet is against the Christian parents' little darlings.

I've read and watched the following:

Star Wars
Star Trek
Lord of the Rings
The Hobbit
The Earthsea Trilogy
All seven Potter novels (seen three of the movies)

And I plan to start reading my Pullman novels Real Soon Now.

Agnostic?
There is no such thing as being agnostic. You either belive or not. Standing in the middle of the road gets you run over. Taking the wrong road gets you lost. You have free will. The freedom to make a choice. MAKE ONE!!

Kill God.
I don't believe in God and I pre-martial sex, lots of it.
I'm going to see the movie.

I hope I get to see those kids in the movie kill God.

Agnostics are atheists.
To be a theist, you have to believe. Fence sitters don't believe, like atheists.

Atheists are going to take over because we're bright.

Give him his dues though...
Google Matt Barber and boxing - you'll get a YouTube of him winning in 16 seconds. I assume it's him anyway. He may write a load of old bollocks but he can swing his fists...

Converse02 - Kill God?
What has happened in your life to make you so bitter. I cannot imagine the pain you msut feel every day. Being Christian does not mean that we do not err in our lives or that we are morally superior to you or anyone else. We cannot enter our kingdom by good works alone. We have to have faith. You belive that there is no God. Belief leaves room for doubt. I have faith that God is real. To have faith is know without doubt. A christian belives that you are a child of God and we pray for you to return to him and his kingdom. We don't look for you to be killed.
I myself pray that you come to terms with your pain and that you begin to learn what is real and what is not.

LOL
Atheists using magic to deny the supernatural. Gotta revel in the irony.

Hang on a minute...
Barber clearly hasn't even seen this movie. How can I tell? Because Kevin Bacon isn't in it. Unless he mistook Daniel Craig for Kevin Bacon (tough one to believe I know - skinny American or buff Brit). What a load of BS.

Narnia sequel hasn't been dropped
Prince Caspian is scheduled for release in 2008.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0499448/

Why do we need the 1st Ammendment?
Some comments here dismiss the ability of fiction to alter our way of thinking, either drastically or subtly. They say, in essence, "its just a story".

If this is so, then why is the 1st Ammendment so important to writers of fiction?

where's the moral relativism?
There is nothing wrong with letting people who are likely to be offended by a movie that they are likely to be offended by it. This is a rather different thing than trying to prevent people from seeing a movie who want to see it, or trying to prevent movies from being made.

I have been curious about Pullman since I first heard of him. The idea of a secular fantasy is a good one, although it is clearly a good idea that could be poorly written. And I have not yet got around to finding the books so I don't know whether he does a good job or is praised because some people are desperate for such material.

But I am puzzled at Barber's contention that Pullman is a moral relativist, because nothing in his column supports that claim. Pullman seems to have set moral beliefs that he thinks Christianity violates. And the fact that a female character does not want to go her whole life without having sex (again?) hardly makes her an unrestrained liscentious type.

Attack On The Minds And Hearts Of Kids
Dear Mr. Barber:

Irresponsibility, hatred of decency, moral relativism, sexual promiscuity, attacks on civilization's foundations, denial of God... and aimed at children. What's the difference here between "The Golden Compass" and the myriad other movies that include the same? It's that this film was wrapped in the veneer of a children's fantasy, just as "art film" pornography is with "redeeming social value", to provide cover. It was intended, as was the book upon which it was based, to corrupt impressionable children by presenting depravity in a coating of sugar.

As "Hounddog" was a landmark in the legitimization of child sex, so is this film in forwarding the intellectual rape of our innocents with blatant anti-Christianity. It opens up yet another front in the culture's war on children. It's ironic (or was it deliberate?) that both those movies were built around the characters of two child actresses, both named "Dakota".

NARNIA
The NARNIA sequel definitely has not been dropped. I work in Hollywood and I believe it is slated for a 2008 holiday release.

Definition of agnostic
From Wikipedia:

Agnosticism (from the Greek a, meaning "without", and gnosticism or gnosis, meaning "knowledge") is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims—particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of God, gods, deities, or even ultimate reality—is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently unknowable due to the nature of subjective experience.

Agnostics claim either that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge of the existence or nonexistence of God or gods; or, alternatively, that while individual certainty may be possible, they personally have no knowledge. Agnosticism in both cases involves some form of skepticism.

Demographic research services normally list agnostics in the same category as atheists and non-religious people,[1] although this can be misleading depending on the number of agnostic theists who identify themselves first as agnostics and second as followers of a particular religion.

Did you come all the way
over here to tell Christians to shut up? AND to stop shoving their values on others?


God was killed
Our Lord was killed in history.

He gave himself like a lamb for slaughter, He came back alive,
and He said He is coming back.

We may not pay to see the Golden Compass and its sequel, but many of us will talk about it with our neighbors and co workers and children. For it is the desire of fallen man to kill our maker; He allowed it and He saved us through it.

September
"Still, like so much else in our culture, Pullman's aversion to God would appear to boil down to sex. Mary Malone explains that her desire for sex was her primary purpose for abandoning the God in Whom she no longer believes. “And I thought: am I really going to spend the rest of my life without ever feeling that again? … And I took the crucifix from around my neck and I threw it in the sea. That was it. All over. Gone. … So, that was how I stopped being a nun,” she recounts."

Yawn. Is that really such a unique character revelation? Just wait until Mary hits post-menopause, she'll wonder what the fuss was all about over fleeting, temporary, orgasmic thrills and the deeper, lasting meaning and joy one might find in serving others as a nun.

As a character, I think Mary did the right thing. She obviously wasn't cut out for nun-hood in the first place. She seeks immediate satisfaction which may control her the rest of her life.

What's also interesting are good authors stuck within their childhood mindset. It's not unusual for an author to play out his issues in his writing, but then we have Hollywood picking it up and turning into a visual with bad dialogue like Mary's.

Yawn. Thanks Mr. Barber for pointing out the movie. I had read about its origins previously. In a way, it's good to bring out these topics--among them why *some* atheists are very angry. I mean, can you imagine being so passionate about *No God* that you spend a lot of time dwelling on and writing about it? In that sense, it's no wonder real-life Marys might assign priority to sexual pleasure to get their minds off the torture of that anger.

Physical Evidence for the "agnostic"
Swampfox, the definition for agnoticisim, while presented most intellegently, is an intellectual cop-out. Where I agree I cannot give you defenitive proof of God, I can give you archeological evidence supporting biblical events, places and names.
The Tel-Dan Inscription: Stone tablet erected by King Hazael of Aram (now Syria. The first refence to the Davdic Dynasty oput side the bible.
The Dead Sea Scrolls:
The Cia

oops
The Caiaphas Ossuary:
The House of God Ostracon:
The Pilate inscription:
and the Ketef Hinnom Amulets.
There are many more. The physical evidence is out there. The belief in God is spritual and I am not supernatural so I have no evidence in that realm. Just Faith. So as I said, you either have faith or not.

Parents
will act with their feet by walking away from this movie as they have with all the "agenda" movies coming out of Hollywood. And then all you intellectual nonbelivers and " oh it is just fun and fantasy people" can help to pay back the costs of making the movie.

To Bluecollar
I believe in God. However, I am an agnostic. I can't know that God exist. I believe in the teachings of Christ. But, I think that Thomas Jefferson had the right idea when he rewrote the New Testament to take out all the miracles, etc.

void accountability threw Christ
Is the doctrine of Christianity.

No crime is so beyond the pail that Christ won't absolve you of responsibility.

It's the imaginary get out of jail free card reliving the minds of some of the most despicable monsters of men in history of their present, past and future actions.

Christianity deities' absolution of moral responsibility.

Few more evil ideas exist in the chronicles of man.

Swampfox and knight of baawa
Knight of baawa: As I said, I cannot give you defenitive proof of God. The belief is spiritual. However I am sure you know that the OT in the bible is a history, and those findings I listed verify the history, names, places and events. Look them up. Acually read a study bible and actually study what is written before trying to dispute it. Also there is nothing at the archeological site you refer that gives a defenitive proof that it is really Troy. It's just "believed" to be Troy.

Swampfox: How can you say you belive on the one hand but you are not sure on the other. Open a biology book and look at the incredible engineering of the Human body and tell me that happened by chance and that in itself is not a miracle. Again, you have faith or not.

Uber
Uber: you are getting your info from some pretty screwed up sources. Or your own screwed up mind.

Do not confuse forgiveness with absolution. We are told to forgive not to forget. There is nothing that in the bible that says we are not punished. It says if we truly repent from our sins and accept Christ, we are forgiven. Our punishment is here on earth through the Laws of man, but we are offered a clean slate in eternity for our repentance and our faith. No true biblical scholar ever said Christians do not sin or are morally superior to anyone. Just forgiven by our father through Christ.

To Bluecollar
Bluecollar: Open a biology book and look at the incredible engineering of the Human body and tell me that happened by chance and that in itself is not a miracle. Again, you have faith or not.

Swampfox: I can't argue with that. It is when people think have direct line to the mind of god.

RED INK COMPASS
The Golden Compass,

Estimated Budget = $150,000,000.oo: (imdb)
Doubled to cover theater rents plus marketing-promotion expenses expect with national and international distribution rights the top line total costs for this film product will be +/- $250,000,000.oo. This projected expense line translates into twenty-five (25,000,000) million seats to heat nationally and worldwide just to start turning a profit for privately held New Line Cinema.

Nicole Kidman holds the leading star position so expect to find her exhaustively doing the circuit from Oprah back to Oprah and everything in between. The producers have cast the die and are relying on her to draw the viewers in to the theaters. Nicole Kidman is no Disney and the dice toss expecting The Golden Compass to be a three hundred ($300,000,000.oo) million dollar blockbuster with the kiddie-view market is an interesting stretch.

I have big doubts!
I'll bet my toaster that the critical first weekend will be twenty mil boxo maximum, otherwise "Golden Compass" is to be transformed into the Red Ink Compass and aftermarket re-sales and international distribution rights provide no relief from the losses.



Swampfox
I agree with you on that point. As i believe most Christians do. There has not been a true prophet since the biblical times. There is nothing worse for me than to go to a church meeting and someone says God told me we should do this and then some says nu-uh God told me we should something diferrent. Remeber, we are told to beware the false prophets. The actual word of God is in the bible. That is of course, another example of faith. All I can tell you is it works for me.

judgment the province of man
"Our punishment is here on earth through the Laws of man"

That's funny... I thought the argument was that man without god had no moral judgment? Now you are saying that moral judgment is solely the province of man.

I as an Atheist can make moral laws at least as good as those of your imaginary god. Better in fact... Cause mine aren't predicated on superstition and magic.

"There is nothing that in the bible that says we are not punished."

"but we are offered a clean slate in eternity for our repentance and our faith."

Exactly... Christianity gives believers a clean slate in eternity no matter how horrific the sin committed... But non believers are subject to eternal damnation for a sin (like dishonoring your mother or father) even if that saved a million lives.

That is because the morally bankrupt Christian faith doesn't make distinctions between sins. In the eyes of the church there is not difference between adultery and child abuse... They are equal sins...

There is no difference between using gods name in vain and murder... Both are considered capital offences..

In fact Christianity views any hostility towards god as the sin which deserves special condemnation.

"No true biblical scholar ever said Christians do not sin or are morally superior to anyone. Just forgiven by our father through Christ."

anti-thiests
oh phooey, lets all burn the athiests and humanists in either a petri dish or on a lab table...

Knight of Baawa
Please read what I wrote to you. I can not give you defenitive proof of God. Faith in God is spiritual. I am not supernatural so I have no evidence in that realm. I also said that the OT is a history and the findings I sited verify the history. Do not try to turn what I said into something diferrent. The OT also gives context to prophicies that relate to the NT and Jesus Christ. (another example of FAITH.) there is nothing that verifies the site you are talking about as Troy. (although I belive it is.) Only location of the site and physical descriptions from the Illiad. ALL legends have thier baisis in fact. BTW the Burning of Atlanta - FACT- Gone with The Wind published as Fiction.

Critical Bill
It is the job of parents to "protect" (I think of it as guiding) our children from harmful aspects of society while they are young. My children have been exposed to great writing and wonderful fantasy stories -- Lewis, L'Engle, Tolkein -- I'm currently reading Treasure Island with my 8-year-old. And, here's the rub. My 14-year-old daughter is allowed, now, to read anything she wants. Because we've "controlled" what she was permitted to read as a younger child, she now has taste. She picked up The Golden Compass at a friend's house, read three pages and gave me her assessment, unrequested. Lousy and manipulative writing.

When your mother is a professional writer and you've been exposed to great literature your whole life, even at 14 you can be far more astute then the professional reviewers. BTW, not all of them are in agreement with the "Pullman is brilliant" crowd and the ones that are lack credibility. Check out what many of them have to say about classic children's literature and you quickly find out that they would rather praise badly written modern slop than a well-written classic anyday. There is a segment of the media elite who wouldn't know good writing if it bit them on the nose. So long as what they read fulfills their political agenda, they don't care if the writer has talent. Pullman is a hack! Just compare him with any of the other three fantasy writers I listed and you should see there's no contest.

Uber
As I said to you earlier, Read and study before you try to dispute something. The Punishments you refer are OT concepts. That is before the NT
and Jesus Christ. In the OT they also sacrificed on the Alter for forgiveness. Christ was the final Sacrifice. We are also told to give Ceasar what is Ceasar's and to give God what is God's. This does not give man moral authority, it gives him societal authority. If you were to study the OT you would see that in 1st and 2nd Kings. WE are held accountable to man for our crimes. We are held accountable to God for our crimes as well. We do not seek absolution for sins we are guilty of. We seek forgiveness. At least you don't define yourself as agnostic. We are to make a choice, Faith or not. It seems you have made yours.

Big whoop
I don't know why this book, of all the books & movies that deny or ignore Christianity, excites so much animosity.

I read the books, they're not that great. Gorgeous imagery & intriguing ideas, but Pullman ultimately takes them nowhere.

Frankly, the Authority as depicted by Pullman has so little resemblance to God the Father as depicted in the Bible and believed by evangelical Christianity, I wonder if anyone will really catch the identification assuming the Authority doesn't get depicted wearing a nametag saying "GOD." The Authority isn't even Creator, of Lyra's universe, or any other so far as I could tell.

Same goes for the Church in Lyra's universe, which isn't even called that. Geez, haven't we seen a million parodies and sneering distorted depictions of the Roman Catholic church (one of many branches of Christianity) before? I think even little kids will realize it's not their world or the Church they might know when everybody is accompanied by their personal daemons.

Furthermore, there's this important personage in Scripture whose initials are J.C., who is totally absent, never referenced or hinted at in any form avatar or version in the whole His Dark Materials trilogy.

It's likely to come off as just another fantasy, perhaps like _Never Ending Story_ or _Star Wars_. Casting Kidman was IMO a good move artistically; she fits my idea of Mrs. Coulter. As a parody or critique of Christianity, HDM is exceptionally poor & likely to miss entirely, IMO.

I do wish C.S. Lewis were alive to debate Pullman and his compatriots e.g. Hitchens. Sometimes I read _Mere Christianity_ or other works to try to imagine what he'd say in reply.

No you didn't read it
If you read what I wrote you would have seen that I said I personally believe the site is Troy. And I have researched it. Have you looked up the sites I gave you. Let me Say this again. I CAN NOT GIVE YOU DEFINITIVE PROOF OF THE EXISTANCE OF GOD. THAT IS AN ACT OF FAITH. THE SITES I GAVE YOU VERIFY THE HISTORY OF THE OT. If you have read the bible you would know that the OT is full of prophicies about Christ. Again let me restate- Belief in those prophicies are another rexample of faith.

To Bluecollar
Bluecollar: I agree with you on that point. As i believe most Christians do. There has not been a true prophet since the biblical times. There is nothing worse for me than to go to a church meeting and someone says God told me we should do this and then some says nu-uh God told me we should something diferrent. Remeber, we are told to beware the false prophets. The actual word of God is in the bible. That is of course, another example of faith. All I can tell you is it works for me.

Swampfox: The miracle is our creation along with all that is around us. The Bible I believe was written by humankind. And, if people followed the teachings of Christ, we would all be better.

A REPUBLICAN CHRISTIAN IN HOLLYWOOD
I'm a film producer in the movie business, and I have enjoyed reading the comments on this blog about Hollywood's contempt for traditional religion. By traditional religion I mean Protestants, Catholics, Jews, and even Muslims...basically anyone who believes in God. It's funny to me how many of my contemporaries in Hollywood pour thousands of dollars into fad religions and cults like Scientology and Kaballah, and yet they mock traditional religious values. They marginalize Christians as mindless drones, and yet they themselves get suckered into every semi-cult that is the flavor of the month. Zombies like Tom Cruise and John Travolta blindly adhere to the loony dogma of a religion made up by a sci-fi writer and shell out endless amounts of money to graduate to the "next level" of the religion. They have the gall to call us sheep???

In my conversations with these people, I am always amused that they can't believe in Adam and Eve, but they can believe that we are all inhabited by the souls of aliens and one day the mother ship will return to take us all back to our planet. These people place their unwavering faith in made-up fad religions that basically amount to pyramid schemes, but they mock people who go to church on Sundays or Synagogue on Saturdays and worship religions that have seen us through the worst of times for centuries.

Maybe if traditional Judeo-Christian religions were more secretive and charged worshippers money to graduate to the next level of "enlightenment" then Hollywood would jump on board. A few vocal celebrities wouldn't hurt either. After, half the reason movie folk join a religion is for the networking!

For more on liberal Hollywood, visit me on townhall or my main blog at http://www.theundercoverconservative.com.

Bluecollar writes
Bluecollar writes: Where I agree I cannot give you definitive proof of God, I can give you archeological evidence supporting biblical events, places and names.

What knight and others are asking (I think) is: What is the point of listing these events, places, and names? If you are not trying to prove the existence of God, then what are you trying to say? You claim that your list verifies the history of the Old Testament, but it really does NOT do that either. Just like the existence of Atlanta does not prove that Gone With the Wind is historically accurate.

Bluecollar also wrote: Open a biology book and look at the incredible engineering of the Human body and tell me that happened by chance and that in itself is not a miracle.

This also does not prove the existence of God. It might possibly perhaps point to some sort of generic supernatural creator, but it definitely does not point to any particular god or gods, or to any particular religion. Most Christians seem to imagine that the existence of this creator automatically means that this creator is the God of the Bible, and therefore that Christianity is the One True Religion. (Yes, I know you didn't say that in your messages, but I doubt that you are trying to give evidence for the existence of Krishna or Vishnu or Zeus, just for a few examples.)

The aggressive takeover of Hollywood by
the Left and the passive surrender by the Right has reached an unprecidented fever pitch.

I watched as aggressive Lefties took over my division at a major entertainment corporation, so I know how they do it.

But even worse is the passive acquiessence of conservatives.

For example, I was listening today to Michael Medved interviewing an author who has written a wildly successful series of action/adventure novels about the USA combatting terrorists.

Apparently, the books are so popular, the studios frequently consider them for movie scripts, but each time the stories are rejected because they are too conservative.

Why does this have to be? Why have we all lain down and let the Leftie power machine roll over us?

Why have no conservatives started their own production companies?!!!

There are so many skilled people in Hollywood who would LOVE to work on a film written by the man that Medved interviewed today. And we know there is a demand for the product, because his books are always huge best sellers.

Yet no one is willing to risk the money to make these films that the public is crying out to see?

I just don't get it.

Knight
Faced with overwhelming evidence and the historical veracity of the OT, Knight sputters, and attempts to gloss over the archaeological evidence by making ludicrous analogies to Zeus.
Not working Knight. There is a plethora of archaeological evidence to support even the most minutia of detail in the OT.
Perhaps that makes you uncomfortable, but you must deal with it. Not create straw men. Or straw Zeus'.
Does all this evidence prove God? No, of course not. Does it make a reasonable case that the biblical writers paid attention to details of place, climate, land forms, and streams, as well as place names, cities, countries, villages, may also have been as laborious in attention to detail in naming people, Kings, even lowly servants and maids. And that if they gave careful, painstaking attention to seemingly insignificant details, can they also be trusted to record words, prophesies, and truths?
AND, the OT points to Jesus on Every page! THAT is the whole point!


undercover
Thanks Undercover, I'm sure you're right, if we went all secrective and charged admission we'd be the most popular religion going.

good thing popularity is not our motivation!

Jim
Lets try to spell it out for you. If the Bible can be trusted on even the tiniest of details, can it also be trusted when it claims to be The Truth?

Yes, He was killed.
We are waiting for this movie to come out, so we can point out that the One who made all things gave Himself up on the cross.

He allowed this murder of Himself.

He fortold it. He is alive and He is returning.

His love is for you, "to show the richess of His kindness throughout eternity."

Interesting. Very Interesting.
“There’s no one to punish me for being wicked.”

"And isn’t that what atheism is all about, really? Our fallen desire to have, “no one to punish [us] for being wicked.”

"Still, like so much else in our culture, Pullman's aversion to God would appear to boil down to sex."


From these lines, it sounds to me that Barber is implying Christians like to be punished, and have a dread of sex.

Bondage, anyone?


Mary C.


WRH Bill
"However, it's really arrogant for Christians to go into a snit over the existence of a non-Christian work of fantasy, as if they somehow "owned" the realm of fantasy."

Bill, that's because their religion IS the fantasy!

Mountain Rose
In response to your comment, there are conservatives like myself who have started production companies and have pursued stories that are important to conservatives, but inevitably we are still at the mercy of the studios that control the money and the distribution. I have pitched a number of pro-America, family values films to studios, often with major stars and directors attach. Practically every time the project is shot down at the studio level.

I know what you'll say...why don't conservative producers go the independent route? Easier said than done. Independent film is grueling process and the financing of an indie film is frankly a nightmare. Furthermore, even if you get your film made, you still have to find a distributor to get it in the theaters. Low and behold, the independent distribution companies like Miramax, Lionsgate, Weinstein Bros., Focus Films are even more liberal than the studios, so you end up right where you started.

Until the media corporations and the executives who work for them change their attitude it will be difficult for conservatives to make more moderate films. And that will only happen when they start to feel the pain at the boxoffice. The fact that the latest round of liberal attack films on the war on terror have failed is a good start.

The Undercover Conservative
Tried to get lined up with your blog but got bounced. Gave name and password and the site didn't register. SUGGESTIONS!

knight
Why don't you ask a Jew? A Messianic Jew. A Jew, will tell you that the OT points to and tells of a Redeemer. A Messiah. Duh.

The only difference is that a non-Messianic Jew will tell you the Messiah has not come and they are still searching. A Messianic Jew will tell you that Jesus is the Messiah, that EVERY page of the OT points to and speaks of.

Knight, you can't get around Jesus. You can't get around the historical truth of the OT. Deny til Judgment day, you really make no difference in turnings of history.

knight
ok

James
I'm not sure why you had trouble getting my blog. I just tested it and it worked fine. It is http://www.theundercoverconservative.com. I just started it, so bear with me, but I will be adding all kinds of fun audio and video content in addition to my blog commenting on my experiences with Hollywood liberals and current political events. I also expect to have several major guest bloggers over the next month or so. Even though I have only been up and running online for a weeks or so, many of my well-known friends in Hollywood and Washington have expressed an interest in posting guest blogs on my site. Should be interesting. Let me know if you still have problems reaching my site. On a lighter note, the Writers Guild negotiations are starting up again, so hopefully we'll have an end to this nonsense soon. I get tired of being harassed at the studio gate every morning and having to listening to chanting screenwriters outside my office all day.

Why?
Why knight do you say, "clearly" Jesus is not the predicted Messiah?

The Undercover Conservative
THX Pal

Mountain Rose
Was Medved talking to John Ringo?

Undercover Conservative
Thanks for your response in your blog. Still have a burned after-image in my brain about "Geffen's Boys".....Ewwww!

knight_of_baawa
If you are not on Seig Heil George Soros payroll you are a complete fool. He has billions and can afford you.

The difference betrween Jesus Christ and Tinkerbell is that - You figure it out smart stuff.

Haven't found a new idea out of your stuff yet! It is like Madelyn Murray O'Hare all over again and she was certifiably miserable.

if all she desired was to die, end up in a hole and be forgotten - she is all but forgotten.

Julius Streicher (1938)
Julius Streicher (1938), a notorious defamer of Jews; said: "It is only on one or two exceptional points that Christ and Hitler stand in comparison, for Hitler is far too big a man to be compared with one so petty."

Substitute "George Soros" for "Hitler" and replace Julius Streicher with MoveOn.Org or MediaMatters and the contemporary scenario fits perfectly.

Credits due http://www.americanthinker.com

ah
Well then knight, I suggest you do a more thorough reading of your NT. "having eyes, you do not see." More's the pity. :)

IRRATIONAL MISOGYNY
Some people's depths of stupidity amaze me.

Only a fool could confuse the "Theory of Evolution" or the "Big Bang Theory" with wonder and awe. Stand adrift from the pedantic nonsense and find the essence. A rowboat in the middle of a lake on a starry night has more to tell then all the books and intellectual manure ever. Something a long long time ago got man's mind thinking and to align with that train of thought keeps one refreshed.

Rejectionists invariably have some sexual something that circulates in their brains. If someone's sexual experience has not been liberating and interesting don't blame Church, God, religion or anyone else. If necessary go buy a hooker and write another chapter hopefully making the adventure novel and delicious.

Being an anti-atheist is more fun then being stuck in some irrational misogyny.


The sacrifice requires faith, not the
Mr. Knight of Baal,


The Passover Lamb was sacrificed, and all who believed the word of Moses and put the blood of the lamb on the doorposts was Passed Over by the destroying angel.

Fount of every blessing
Mr. Knight of Baal,

I think I see who you are.

The sacrifice to cleanse all sin is not brought about by a special blade, as you argue. It is brought about by the promise of God, and the faith of the wretched sinner. We are actually redeemed from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light,

and it is a contract that God has signed, never to be revoked.

Don't bother with a special ritual argument. Please, ask Jesus to reveal His love for you, because you are beloved to Him, even though you fight him. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.

KOB
If you'd bother to do some research, you'd find that rabbinnic scholars are aware that the Jewish Messiah had to have come before the second temple was destroyed in AD 70. There were certain very definite prophesies concerning the Messiah that required the second temple to have still been standing. Of course most rabbis disagree with Christians that Jesus was the Messiah, but an impressive number have followed the evidence where it leads and admitted that Jesus fulfilled those prophesies when nobody else did. In other words, if Jesus isn't the Jewish Messiah, nobody ever will be because the second temple is long, long gone.

Yes, Jesus was in the line of David. Please show proof when you make a ridiculous claim like that. Joseph had to go to Bethlehem for the census because that was his home town. He traced his lineage to David. Since people did not marry outside of their tribe in those days, Mary was also of the line of David.

There were some prophesies that Jesus did not fulfill in His lifetime, but if Christians are correct and He's coming back, there's no reason to suppose He can't fulfill the remaining prophesies then, since He's the only one to have fulfilled the prophesies that were time-limited.

When you make outlandish statements, KOB, you might want to cite some sources.

Aurorawatcher
I would like to take issue with a couple of points you made in your last post.

Firstly: "She picked up The Golden Compass at a friend's house, read three pages and gave me her assessment, unrequested. Lousy and manipulative writing." Now, for all I know your 14 year-old could be a genius. I don't know. But I suspect that most people would consider it impossible to reach a final verdict on books that are what, 1,200 pages in total, after reading just three pages. I looked at the first three pages of The Golden Compass last night just to see what was in them - not a lot, other than placing Lyra and her daemon in a room at Oxford. Any sort of judgement, never mind "manipulative" or "lousy", is impossible to make. I would encourage your child to read anything in its entirety before passing judgement on it. Does she read three pages of a book she is her schoolwork on before writing a report? I hope not. What twaddle.

And...
Secondly: "When your mother is a professional writer and you've been exposed to great literature your whole life, even at 14 you can be far more astute then the professional reviewers. BTW, not all of them are in agreement with the "Pullman is brilliant" crowd and the ones that are lack credibility." Do you think that professional reviewers, many of whom are themselves succesful published authors, have read less great literature than your daughter? I have not seen a poor review of Pullman from any respected source. I am sure you have lots of them and can explain to me why these reviewers are lacking in credibility. So go ahead - find me some negative reviews of Pullman's work and tell me why the positive reviewers lack credibility. In truth, the only one who lacks credibility is you, because not only do you big yourself up but you also praise the same misplaced arrogance in your children.
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