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Wednesday, February 18, 2009
Marybeth Hicks :: Townhall.com Columnist
Realistic Family 'Ideals'
by Marybeth Hicks
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One of these days someone is finally going to trip and fall off the landing in front of the back door. There will be blood. Perhaps a concussion. But then at least one of my children will understand why I've nagged all these years about putting the shoes where they belong.

They belong in the baskets, clearly marked with the names of my four children - the baskets that sit conveniently on the shelves next to the door. Depositing a pair of shoes into a basket can be done in one fluid motion, taking no more effort than it would to bend over and pick up any object, say a pencil or a dollar bill.

I've tried everything I can think of to get my children to develop this habit short of actually tossing money out the door. I'm certain if I did this, my kids would snatch the cash and leave the shoes on the steps.

I guess I'm just unrealistic, but such is the curse of a parent.

Every mom and dad I know harbors a host of unrealistic expectations - a clean bedroom, a limited number of text messages, a job after graduation.

In fact, it strikes me that a perpetual state of unfounded optimism ought to be chief among the traits of every parent. Without it, we'd have to admit that all our admonitions and lectures and warnings and consequences are for naught because realistically, children won't listen.

New mom Bristol Palin, daughter of Alaska's Gov. Sarah Palin, in a recent interview with Fox News' Greta Van Susteren, made a case for realism in parenting. When asked her view on teen motherhood - specifically on the nature of the relationship that landed her in this difficult and life-changing role, Miss Palin said she thought her mother's views on abstinence were "unrealistic."

To be sure, Miss Palin made a sincere and compelling case for "waiting 10 years" to take on the responsibilities of parenthood. She repeated that the role, while rewarding and satisfying, is incredibly difficult. "There's nothing glamorous about it," she said, aptly pointing out that it's not the long, sleepless nights or the tasks of caring and feeding, but the fact that "you're no longer living for yourself. You're living for someone else."

That's a big realization for one so young.

Teaching our children to be responsible, including the responsible choices of abstaining from unmarried sex, underage drinking, experimental drug use, risky Internet behavior, is often called an unrealistic strategy.

Pragmatists say we're better off accepting that children and teens will do the things we warn against anyway, so a better, safer route is to manage the outcomes to the degree we're able - supply condoms, collect the car keys and host the kegger at home and legalize marijuana to avoid the potential for a criminal record.

Still, most everyone agrees that high-risk behaviors like these are not good, not healthy, not desired. Abstaining may be tough, but it's still the best solution.

Miss Palin may think her parents' advice regarding abstinence was unrealistic, but I think that was the 18-year-old daughter talking.

The 18-year-old mother will soon discover that unrealistic expectations drive the parenting bus.

With time and experience, perhaps she'll discover that we parents have another name for those unrealistic expectations. We call them "ideals."

Without them, parenting would be near impossible.

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About The Author
Marybeth Hicks is the author of Bringing up Geeks: How to Protect Your Kid’s Childhood in a Grow-up-too-fast World (Penguin/Berkley, July 2008).
Pregnancy outside of marriage,

being the huge, anti-social activity that it is,
should be punished by the government.

Why should responsible people be expected to reward irresponsible behavior as we do in this country?

I suggest any unmarried woman who gets pregnant be fined $10,000 and sentenced to one year in prison.

Abstinence IS realistic!
I chose to do it in high school and college. Part of that time I wasn't a Christian, but on some level I recognized that sex with a stranger or semi-stranger was soul-killing and so I turned down the boys who wanted to. When I became a Christian, I learned that I had been right in that gut intuition and I developed an actual set of arguments to use on those boys who still wanted it. Eventually, I started dating boys who understood the same thing.

My 16-year-old daughter knows we expect her to be abstinent from drugs, alcohol and sex. We've discussed sex and abstinence at length and we continue to discuss it. Her boyfriend, also a Christian, agreed with Bri that they aren't ready emotionally or spiritually to connect physically. They've mutually set up rules for themselves so that they don't find themselves in a compromising situation. If they decide to have sex, it will be a mutual and PLANNED decision between the two of them that will involve effective contraception. They currently are finding that sexual denial isn't a bad thing, that it is allowing them to focus on more important issues, like each other's thoughts and feelings.

I don't know how Bristol Palin ended up in her situation. I think she and Levi probably used condoms (with an industry-wide laboratory failure rate of 18-23% percent, making them a really poor choice for contraception) and they received the consequences. Abstinence did not fail in this situation. It wasn't practiced. Neither, apparently, was forethought.

RumDog
Yeah right and there were no articles at Huff calling Bristol a wh0re either.

Look, a pig with wings!

eddie too
Huh? Is that satire?

We are trying to lower abortion rates in this world, not increase them. Unmarried pregnant women who choose to birth, should be esteemed and not labeled a _________ (insert whatever negative label you deem on such ladies).

After all, their other choice would be to kill their baby. Encouraging more women to "cover up" their sin by fining and jailtime is probably not the best policy to have if one has a desire to reduce abortions.

My Liberal View
many moms and dads across the country fail to understand one basic fact about children. They are human. Conservatives particularly believe that commanding children and cajoling them is the what parenting is about. But a very different picture actually describes how children learn. They learn by example.

The parent who demands respect because they are respectable and respect worthy is the parent who's values will be learned.

The forceful parents who's actions do not mirror their words will be the least successfully.

Modern parents face one more obstacle, they make demands without ever assigning responsibility. And when they do they are quick to take responsibility away when their child fails to live up to their expectations.

What these parents fail to grasp is that children want to learn, want to success. You will never be your childes worst critic... they already are... But failure is sometimes the best teacher of success.

Certainly we should not over give our children more responsibility than they can handle... but we should be just as wary about not giving them less responsibility than they can find challenging.

Children are humans. As humans in families they should be active members not passive consumers as may parents would have them be.

Eddie! Great Idea
That's a fantastic idea! Talk about a stimulus package...we would need an additional ten million prison cells. Think of the construction boom!

Seriously, there are two different views here, and both are real. Its perfectly realistic for parents to preach and expect abstinence. But it is equally realistic to know that most men and women will have sex before marriage and more than likely, before conservatrons think they should.

For one thing....they ALWAYS HAVE. This is why questionable parentage and illegitimacy are archetypes in literature and art. The issue has been with us since before history began.

For another, biology and culture have changed. 200 years ago, females entered puberty at 16 and were married within a year or two. That period of abstinence was a year or so long. Today, females enter puberty as young as 10 and do not marry until 25. An abstinence period of 14 years is NOT realistic, at least on a broad scale.

Add to that the fact that sex sells. Almost all of what conservatives complain about is the free market in action. An abstinence period of 14 years in a sex drenched society is nothing but a dream.



western bondbeam,

getting an abortion does not change the fact that a woman was pregnant. It is getting pregnant that should be punished, not giving birth.

Exceptions can be made for rape that is reported in time to verify its occurrence.

Why should conservative women be exempt from the expectation that they will not continue to engage in anti-social activities that damage the very fabric of our country and cause responsible people to reward them for their irresponsibility?

Why should not women be fined and imprisoned for getting pregnant outside of marriage?

People get fined and imprisoned for not wearing seatbelts and for smoking tobacco in the wrong place and for walking across the street in the wrong place. None of these activities are nearly as damaging and costly as getting pregnant outside of marriage.

You morons who think sexual activity is some kind of divine right to be engaged in with whomever and whenever a person wants, need to grow up and start accepting responsibility. Attitudes like your's concerning sexual activity is the root cause of most problems experienced in society.

Your denials, your scoffing at the notion, your ridiculing of the messenger does nothing to diminish the truth.

John,

I think women would think twice about spreading their legs if they knew it could lead to jail.

Of course, if the American males were real men they would not be impregnating women to whom they are not married.

Pregnancy outside of marriage was not an epidemic 50 years ago. This alone belies all of the obfuscation about young people being unable to choose to be chaste.

One family at a time
The issue here, as raised by the Palin girl, is whether abstinence is even a choice. Just because she and many others fail to refrain from pre-marital sex, does not invalidate it as a choice for others any more than those that fail to refrain from extra-marital sex make monogamy impossible for others.

My wife and I are raising two daughters, one 16 the other 15. From day one the plan was clear: abstain from premarital sex, drugs, smoking and alcohol. Practice your faith. Associate with others that follow the same plan and recognize the weakness of those that do not, without judgment, but also without 'joining in'. With school, sports, and work, plus a great circle of friends, parental communication, the plan is working.

An important gift of the Holy Spirit is discernment. It allows one to know 'what's what', and signals when something is wrong with a certain feeling. While many may plunge ahead when all the alarms are going off, and train themselves to avoid listening, others heed, and live better lives because of it. We want nothing less for our children and yours.

Abstinence is 100% effective in avoiding teen pregnancy and STDs. It avoids substance abuse on the same spectrum of efficiency. My children are made in the image of God. They are not animals.

Happy Thoughts
As a father I had to learn the difference between what I wanted for my children and what they wanted for themselves. Promoting abstinence is comfortable from a parent's point of view as is wanting your daughter to marry a devoted husband who provides for her. These are happy thoughts for parents. But in real life kids repeatedly fall down the stairs.

Just because something is hard to do...
doesn't make it a bad choice. And just because some people make bad choices, doesn't mean they can't proceed with making better choices. Lots of things are difficult, but I've found that for the most part, the things that were easy to do don't make me feel as good as the things that aren't.

eddie too
Dang, I was hoping it was satire.

Hmmm...so a years jailtime doesn't punish a woman for giving birth? A huge fine doesn't punish her for giving birth? Unmarried pregnancy is kind of hard to hide when they birth the child. The child is evidence they were pregnant and unmarried. Abortions however, happen discreetly before any public knowledge they were even pregnant, therefore no fine or jailtime for those killing their baby. Your law just become more attractive to women who found themselves in this position.

Erwin
I have news for you.

You have no idea whether your kids are or aren't following the shining path you describe.

eddie too
I meant: " Your law just made abortion more attrative to women who found themselves in this positions."

eddie too
"Of course, if the American males were real men they would not be impregnating women to whom they are not married."
---------------
Speaking of men, why doesn't your law punish them for their participation?

What about exisiting marriages and adultery? Do cheaters get fined and jailed as well, or do the men just get to chop off their cheating wifes head?

Ask The Expert
Sarah Palin would be in a position to understand these matters since she was pregnant when she got married on August 29, 1988 (an elopement); her first child was born April 20, 1989.

3 words
education
&
birth control



pull your heads out of the sand!

Fornication
is a sin, no matter whether the offender is a liberal or a conservative. How sad to hear Bristol say that God's standards are unrealistic. Ultimately, it is God she has rebelled against, not just her mother. We teach our children God's expectations, if they don't live up to them there is forgiveness when they repent, but if they fail they are responsible not their parents.

Uber
What liberals fail to understand is that raising a child is a huge responsibility-and serious parents take it as a mission from God to do all they can to ensure their offsprings' success.

This isn't about kids not being human. It IS about learning responsibiity for oneself, and respect for others. Teenage sex is neither respectful or responsible. It is not responsible because teenagers do not have the maturity to think past the immediate moment to understand how the enormous emotional and physical consequences of what they're going to undertake will affect them, quite possibly for the rest of their lives. It's no joke to be saddled with a type of VD that will either render you sterile, or be with you the rest of your life. Nor, as Miss Palin has found, is being mother to a baby quite the same as a classroom assignment of carrying a five-pound sack of flour around in imitation of a real baby. It is not respectful because there is no formal commitment; the girl becomes a lockerroom joke, no matter that she thought she was 'in love' when she either gave in or succeeded in her pursuit. The boy on the other hand, seems to revel in the admiration of his peers for his 'manhood', to say nothing of the conquest. This is healthy exactly how?

No liberal gets it that sex is more than mere urges and feelings. That is why we conservatives object to your kind of sex ed. and prefer our kids to be taught there is a proper order to life.

Lilly
My mother was pregnant with my eldest brother when she got married too. So what? However, I was not when DH and I married. Guess which of us was divorced (twice) and which will be celebrating 30 yrs of marriage this year?

There ARE worse things in life than having to get married and raise your kid.

Whoops
Meant to say that I was not pregnant when DH and I married. Sorry!

Alive in Him said
"What liberals fail to understand is that raising a child is a huge responsibility"

Are you crazy? Why would you say something like that? Do you really believe it?

Amazing.


Worth it!


I both agree and slightly disagree with Marybeth Hicks. We most certainly should strive for idealism. The truth, however, is young people are typically more idealistic (not less) than older people.

All young people, deep down are looking for something to live and die for. They all long for that “cause” bigger then themselves to believe in.

Avoiding pre-marital sex is far from unrealistic. It’s precisely the thing young people need to believe is worth fighting for. It sends all the positive messages. It’s about self-respect and showing respect to others. It’s about realizing one’s value as a human being.

How sad for a parent to sell their child short. How sad to not constantly remind our children there are some sacrifices in life that are beyond worth it. To settle for anything less is doing our children a serious disservice.

My children will know how valuable I consider them. My daughters are taught they are rare and precious. My sons are taught to respect women.

“A good wife is hard to find, and worth far more than diamonds.” --proverbs

The beautiful and wonderful courting process that unfortunately many don’t engage in is one of the things that make life worth living. It is the stuff poems and love songs were written of.

I for one would never want to deprive my children of this incredible and passionate period in their lives. A sexual relationship prior to marriage can never be compared to two people who long for each other, but agree to prove their love by waiting. Their relationship is more intimate and real than any sexually active relationship out there.

If you want to really feel alive, you would believe true love IS attainable.

I may be idealistic, but I wouldn’t want it any other way

lilly
according to the Taliban-in-resident, Eddie Too, Sarah Palin and her daughter would be in jail. Now, I admit he said women should just be jailed for pregnancy but one of us should probably tell him that pregnancy generally leads to a real life baby.

It's not going to be me, however; I think he probably prefers the baby/stork version which doesn't involve human contact.

Aurora watcher
I think that this subject is very interesting in the context of Christian theology, especially since it is centered on a man who's mother was unmarried. I'm not trying to sound snarky, I suspect it had more to do with a God/father and earth/mother thing but you must admit that it is not just a historical coincidence that virginity has such a religious imperative in Christianity.

Actually,
The original purpose of virginity was that women were commodities, and as such, were supposed to be "new". The stoning of women who are not "new" in other cultures isn't that far from Christian heritage, which isn't that far from neolithic and neoclassical periods in the west that also valued virginity.

But everything in history has a history of it's own - I suspect that the original reason, when we were all living in caves, was the necessity of establishing paternity for all the obvious reasons. In 40,000 years we've managed to overlay all kinds of rationales for it but I suspect the original instincts are the same.

Jen
"My sons are taught to respect women"

Why do you place the concept of "respect" in a sexual context? Sex and respect have nothing to do with each other. Force, deception, seduction -- those are shameful behaviors and disrespectful -- I hope your kids aren't still "respecting" women when they're 30.

I knew someone who valued virginity for her daughter over almost everything else. She talked all the time about how her daughter was "still a virgin". She talked about it through the daughter's teens, then her twenties, a little less in her thirties, and now that the daughter is 46 and still living at home, a virgin no less, I don't hear so much about the value of it.

Hey!!! Maybe we should introduce her to Eddie Too!

question for the guys...
how many of you had sex before you were married???

you couldn't keep it in your pants, and (most of) your kids can't either...

If they can, great!
If they can't wouldn't you want them to have ALL of the information so that they are able to make an informed choice??????

open your eyes!

Ded
I'm a great believer in informed choices.

But here's another question for Eddie too, if he ever returns -In his utopian dream of punishment for unmarried pregnant women, what kind of sentences and fines would he impose on the men who were partner to their crime?

Ethan
No, I'm not crazy. It is the leftist liberals that are in the schools teaching our young people that the only thing that matters about sex is that there is no untimely pregnancy. I've NEVER heard or seen a liberal say "Wait. Get your education, give yourself a chance to grow up some more and discover who you really are-you will be happier for it". If there is any mention of waiting for marriage, it is always with the caveat that if waiting is not 'realistic for you', then technology (condoms, pills and abortion) is available, which of course nsubtly ullifies the 'wait' message. In other words, the kids are left adrift in a sea of moral relativism with nobody warning of possible shipwreck.

It started years ago when I was in high school. Knowing what I do now as contrasted with what I thought I knew (and was in fact taught) then, I'll err on the side of extreme caution. Our daughers and sons deserve no less-regardless of whether or not they choose to heed the message.

why isn't she married?
What is the point of making a show of "being engaged?" They already HAVE the kid. Even 20 years ago, I remember people who were young and got pregnant and did "the honorable thing" by getting married. What is the point of Bristol "getting married" at some point in the future? Shouldn't the marriage been a simple affair about 6 months ago? Let's face it, the Republicans have lost this issue -- as sad as that might be. If Palin did not have the ability to convince her own daughter to get married, I doubt she could convince a world leader to do something that he/she would not want to do. Unfortunately, this creates a real credibility issue for me -- though Palin is 100 times better than McLame. Of course, when people were saying a month into Jindal's election as governor that he was a "wonderful" governor -- that is equally bad. If the Republican party wants to be a party of pandering, I guess I should just vote for Libertarians or Constitutional party candidates.

Rum Dog.
Well spoken.

Ded
As a parent to two teens still at home, I'm all for informed choice.

Our kids are informed that the number of VDs is over 70 where once it was just a handful. They are informed that some of these stay with you for life-and can also render a female sterile. Our kids are informed that having an urge does not justify using another's body to relieve it. Rather use his own hand, than risk the chance of knocking a girl up and seriously shortchanging all three of their futures. Once pregnant, the girl is forever a mother, the boy forever a father, no matter the outcome. They are informed that young women, even if they aare the type who 'hunger and thirst' after their sexuality, deserve respectful treatment-and they themselves deserve better than to be used as a release valve. They have been informed that restraint on their part means no young lady will, in her heart, ever regret having dated them. They have also been informed that they ought to treat every young lady they date as they would like their younger sister to be treated when she is old enough to date.

As to b/c, get real. Basic supplies can be purhased from any drugstore/supermarket. They're right out there in plain sight-and as long as condoms and other items have been around (and they have been for centuries), people always seem to know where to find them. We haven't discovered anything new. We just have a culture that makes it easier for our young people to indulge their every whim.

Erwin44
You and I are singing in the same choir!

Ethan - Virgin Birth - Big Subject!
Boiling it down to just the essence of what you said and giving the Christian understanding of it --

The primary purpose of Mary being a virgin was that she had never been with a human man. Jesus did not have an earthly father and Mary did not become pregnant because a physical god came and had sex with her. This was entirely spiritual. Mary knew this and Joseph knew this after the angel came and assured him of it. Probably the rest of Nazareth didn't know it and there were rumors afoot, but Mary and Joseph knew how unique the child they were raising truly was.

I suggest you actually read the Gospel accounts rather than just your interpretation based on mystery religions. The truth is better than the fiction.

Lilly
You are a nasty old gossip, aren't you? Counting on your fingers, trying to catch people being naughty.

Remember, when you got your finger pointed at someone, there's three more pointed at you.

AliveinHim
You're singing harmony with my husband. Boys are equally responsible for the abstinence to work. My husband talks about this with our 10-year-old son already, who still thinks girls are either icky or incomprehensible (though he has a very cute crush on his sister's bf, who is almost five years older). We've talked with all the kids in the church youth group about this and it's surprising that many of the boys understand this already. BJ believes it's the Holy Spirit working in their hearts, though I know one dad has been proactive in the discussion with his three.

My daughter's boyfriend has surprised us so far in his outspokenness on that topic. He's not ready to be a father at 15. He has friends who are facing that problem already. He recognizes that he is responsible to work with Bri to keep themselves from making a big mistake. But it's more than just not being ready for fatherhood. It's also that they recognize they're not ready for the emotional and spiritual connection that is part and parcel with the physical. Bri tells me she thinks that many of her friends who have become sexually active hadn't discussed sex and abstinence with their partner before they became intimate. If kids don't think ahead, well, yeah, running off a cliff is the usual consequence.

Ethan
You wrote - Sex and respect have nothing to do with each other. Force, deception, seduction -- those are shameful behaviors and disrespectful -- I hope your kids aren't still "respecting" women when they're 30.

Sex and respect have nothing to do with each other? I thank God I'm not married to you! My husband still respects me in our sexual life. He respected me before marriage by maintaining the boundaries we had discussed and he respects me now by maintaining a different set of boundaries -- like not committing adultery when his step-sister gets drunk and offers herself to him.

One of the most sucessful marriages I know in my group of friends happened between our 35-y-o friend Al and his 33-y-o bride. Baptist missionaries, they claimed to both be virgins on the wedding night. My husband knows Al was because he was Al's best man and they stayed up late the night before talking about it. They've been married 17 years and they have the strongest and most affectionate marriage of all of our friends. I think it's because they don't have any competition in each other's eyes. And, you know what, I bet they still respect each other.

ethan

Ethan: My sons are taught to respect women"

Why do you place the concept of "respect" in a sexual context? Sex and respect have nothing to do with each other. Force, deception, seduction -- those are shameful behaviors and disrespectful -- I hope your kids aren't still "respecting" women when they're 30.




Jen: Huh? I’m not putting the concept of respect in a sexual context. You respect a person when you see them as more than something simply for your pleasure. Showing respect for someone means you have their long term interests in mind. You don’t want to give them a baby before they are married. You don’t want to subject them to a disease. You want to show them you have their best interest in mind. You are concerned about their future. They don’t simply serve as your passing fancy. You show them they are worth waiting for. What better way to prove your love? Everything else is just words. To actually deny yourself for another demonstrates your commitment and sincerity.

I hope my sons are still respecting women when they’re 30 – whether they are married or single. Men can show respect to women by not viewing p*rn. This goes for both single and married men.




ethan: I knew someone who valued virginity for her daughter over almost everything else. She talked all the time about how her daughter was "still a virgin".


Jen: That’s weird. I would assume if a young woman wasn’t married she is a virgin. There would be no need to mention the subject.

Also, you seem to see a 46 yr old virgin as silly? Why? If she/he isn’t married, I see nothing silly or strange about it.

ethan @ 6:28 pm
You have it all wrong; ii has nothing to do with women being property. Christian men are expected to be virgins when they marry also. Paul said to Timothy, a young pastor, "Flee also youthful lusts..." (2 Timothy 2:22) And in 1 Corinthians 6:18 he told the church, "Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body, but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body."

Alive in Him
" I've NEVER heard or seen a liberal say "Wait. Get your education, give yourself a chance to grow up some more and discover who you really are-you will be happier for it"

If you've never heard a liberal urging their children to wait, not to get pregnant, or maintaining the importance of responsibility you need to get out more.

As I see it, one of the basic mistakes that most people make is that they judge what the rest of the country thinks based on what their friends think. This is true for liberals and conservatives alike - after 1980 there were enough changes in my life that I needed to move several times, and I observed it over and over. I see that you live in Colorado, is it one of those areas where everybody is fundamentalist?

If so, I suggest that you get out and talk to average, everyday liberals with families, jobs, lawns, and responsibilities that, trust me, they take every bit as seriously as you do before you make such narrow, myopic judgements.

Andrea
I'm not saying that women are considered property now, in 2009; I'm saying that up until the industrial revolution (sooner in other cultures) women were considered property and were usually assigned to their grooms at an early age, often for the financial and power benefit of their parents. Do you know where the custom of the "best man" comes from? In ancient times, or more recently in places that were cut off from the more civilized world, women were abducted for marriage by what was usually a group of men, most of whom were close friends and relatives. As time went on, one of these men was chosen to attend the wedding ceremony and legitimize it.

Jen
Okay, Okay, I shouldn't have taken that phrase out of context, I apologize. I think I was reacting negatively because I so often, in my life, have heard sex (or the lack of it)discussed as "morality", "purity", "innocence", etc. What I was trying to say was that it is the behavior that is part of the sex act that can be immoral, not the act of sex. But I don't think we disagree all that much. If there is a difference between us, I think you romanticize adolescent sexual behavior more than I do, but that's not a crime, either.


Aurora said
"Sex and respect have nothing to do with each other? I thank God I'm not married to you! My husband still respects me in our sexual life."

You are also misunderstanding me. Sex is not inherently evil, or corrupt, or the work of the devil. what people do to each other in the course of pursuing it, or participating in it is what's important.

I once volunteered on a domestic violence hotline, and I would get phone calls from women who had been required to dress up or perform other acts in which they felt humiliated, or who were raped by their lovers or husbands, or who were manipulated in very aggregious ways in the process of sex. THAT's immorality at work. The abuse of any human being in that way, whether or not sex is involved is immoral, not the sex itself.

I learned later in my own life that a beloved aunt had been "punished" by my Uncle by withholding sex for a year. That is also immoral.

It is always immoral
to do anything that degrades, humiliates, or attacks the self of another human being whether or not it involves sex - or the withholding of it.

Andrea
the bible verses you quote are merely a way of codifying what were already sexual practices. It's not as if somebody just made them up one day and then everybody submitted.

I think that the problem with grown men and women being virgins until they marry is that it is a denial of their humanity; we are created as sexual beings, and our society has the longest childhood on earth, which ends long past the point that people in most cultures reach and act on their puberty. Children in this culture are sheltered and infantalized, in many instances, long past the time when most cultures have prepared them and then introduced them into adulthood.

ethan
Yes, God's standards of purity predate the New Testament. My point in sharing those verses was to show that chastity is expected in unmarried Christian men as well as women. There is no double standard in the Bible.

As far as denying our humanity by waiting, the opposite is true. We only fulfill our destiny, so to speak, when we obey God's laws. God gave us sex to enjoy, but only within the bonds of marriage. Any other context is fraud.

People once married at 12 and 13
after all, young Jewish men and women become adults at bar mitvahs in early teens, *adult* menu and ticket price start at 12, and if you can remember, Juliet of *Romeo and* was not yet 14 (she was two weeks short of her birthday when she died).

In my family in 1814, a 14-yr.-old boy married an 11-yr.-old girl, and they both prob. lived with his or her parents and were farmers. Today's educational demands that young people remain in college up to 25 or 30 makes early marriages more culturally difficult.

On the other hand, the lib. mantra that somehow adolescents have no morality or self control because of hormones and puberty is simply hogwash. Young people with strong families and values find ways to maintain their personal integrity without experiencing the degradation and misery early sexual misdaventure visits on most of its experimenters.

The best predictor of whether children will be successful in achieving their goals is whether they have sit-down family dinners most of a week. And the worst predictor for ec. poverty and failure is a teenaged girl having a child without graduating high school. If those two simple facts were implemented in today's society, much less grief would be inflicted on today's young people.

Oh my! I almost missed this thread!
Haven't seen anything so funny for ages. Especially our resident virgin, eddie too, and aliveinwhatever.

OTOH, the idea of putting Sarah Palin's daughter in jail amuses me no end. Go eddie!

What about
people who have no intention of getting married and/or having kids? Should they never have sex?

Andrea, good to see you're still around. I don't get much time to post here anymore, but I'd like to hear your take on this one.

alejandro

People who have no intention of getting married should not have sex. Why do they want to have sex with a person if they do not wish to marry them? Obviously for purely selfish reasons. And when you do so you are allowing for the possibility of creating new life and unfairly bringing an innocent 3rd party into the mix – again extremely selfish.

It is not in the best interest of the individual or society to have sex outside of marriage!

A person that has no desire to have children shouldn’t marry OR have sex. If a person is unable to have children – that’s completely different. The purpose of the marital act is unitive in nature. It is both procreative and pleasurable.

It’s wrong to want the pleasure of engaging in the sexual act without accepting the possible result of engaging in the act. Not unlike how it would be wrong to enjoy the pleasure of eating, but then vomiting it up simply b/c you aren’t willing to accept the calories.

This is not how the body is designed and therefore is inherently wrong to use it in this manner.

Nicely Put,
Bristol Palin calling abstinence "unrealistic" is simple self-justifying -- no different than my 8yo griping about having to fold his clothes or the 15yo complaining about not being allowed to wear faded, holey clothing in public.

High standards and ideals are essential in parenting and in all of life. If you aim for the sky you may fall short and merely land on the mountaintop. But you'll still be better off than person who aimed for the gutter to begin with and ended up in the sewer.

Lilly I am glad you can count
Nevertheless, counting does not tell you much. Sarah Palin may have been pregnant when she got married, or she may have gotten pregnant after she got married who knows. (Honeymoon babies exist)

One thing we can assume is she did not get married because she was pregnant. Even today, you must miss a cycle before you know you are pregnant. To have a son in April Sarah Palin had to become pregnant in August, but she would not have known she was pregnant until September.

Unlike her daughter, she was not a teenage mom. She was 24 years old; she had finished college and was working. She married the man that took her to her senior prom. You can speculate about the nature of their enduring relationship all you want, but it will still only be petty gossip.

Ded,
My husband and I were both virgins on our wedding night. We'd both had many opportunities to have unsanctioned sex -- with others and with each other.

However, being REASONING human beings, not animals in rut, we CHOSE to do the right thing rather than give in to temptation.

Its 100% realistic to expect others to make that same choice. People have been making that choice for as long as humankind has existed.

Anything else is mere retro-active self-justification for something that you know you did wrong but don't want to admit.

Realism
I'm a 55 year old father and the 18 year old is mostly correct. It's unrealistic to expect all teens to abstain from sex. We don't live in the ideal world Hicks would like. I'm not even sure it's a worthy, or "ideal" goal. In many ways it's cruel to ask people to stay unmarried well into their 20s and expect them to remain sex-free. I know it's parentally-incorrect but I'm of the opinion that people should marry young and become responsible adults sooner rather than later.

IDEAL FAMILY
Now days? Seems okay to me except parents are not raising their kids any more;either the state is or gramdma is!

They thew the bibles out and they don't you to mention God or read his book,but just rely on your animal instincts!Don't spank!Thats's to harsh;don't teach them any responsibility,like how to earn money(the government has promised to take care of you),either by ridlan or some other drug!

(Don't train up a child in the way he should go:and when he is old,he will not depart from it!Prov22:6 You want a realistic family?Get in a good fundamental bible( KJV )believing,sin hating,hell fire teaching church and you may raise a halfway decent kid!

ethan,
You have it 100% backwards.

Encouraging teens to act like animals in rut is the denial of their humanity.

Humans are unique in having the capability to reason, to consider the rightness or wrongness of their impulses, and to CHOOSE to act or refrain from acting.

The ability to CHOOSE abstinence until the time comes when one has CHOSEN to commit to a lifelong partnership (that commitment is not made until the marriage service is complete), is unique to humankind and as such is one of the fullest expressions of the nature of humanity as REASONING beings rather than mere animals.

PARENTING
Parents need to be firmly against pot & underage drinking and sex.
Then if the teen does one or more of those things, they will do them less.
My Mom said, "Raise your child to be one degree more conservative than you want them to turn out because then when they rebel, they will be just right."
I'm glad she raised me that way because, for example, I would never use bad words around my kids (& now grandkids) becasue I just never use words like that.
I'm not great, one of my kids went through a period of drug addiction, but without the conservative nature of my own parenting because of my own upbringing, he and we made it through to recovery.
All parents end up conservative.

Alejandro,
Yes, those who have no desire for marriage and children should indeed remain virgin lifelong.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't expect to get the benefits of marriage -- sex among them -- without assuming the responsibilities of marriage.

Its not a difficult idea to grasp.

Donjindra,
The error is not in encouraging teens (and all other people as well), to be abstinent until marriage.

The error is in promoting the hyper-extended childhood rather than setting a hard, bright line for the assumption of ALL adult responsibilities.

Most people are not cut out to be virgin lifelong. Therefore most people should marry early in adulthood -- in their late teens or early 20's. That's the historical norm. Its our culture's delay of marriage until the late 20's or early 30's that is the aberration.

Jen
"People who have no intention of getting married should not have sex. Why do they want to have sex with a person if they do not wish to marry them? Obviously for purely selfish reasons."

People who think of sex as a selfish act may need to improve on their technique.

I'll add that it is selfish to expect other people to live their lives to your specifications.

I think Bristol Palin Rocks
I think Bristol Palin comments have been misconstrued.

I watched Bristol Palin's interview with Greta. Her comment about abstinence is much different if you see it in context. She said teen pregnancy is not glamorous. She said you should wait. She said you should wait ten years until you are finished school, married and working.

She says abstinence is not realistic, but she that is because of the culture IT (I think she means sex, but she only said IT, she was clearly uncomfortable talking about IT) is so accepted.

She said kids should be abstinent. Then Greta ask her how that will happen, Bristol says "by shows like this" "by seeing stories of teen moms."

I think Bristol Palin rocks because she tried to go out and explain the reality of teen pregnancy. She was clearly saying to young people that they should abstain because being a teenage mom a teenage parent is hard.

I think it is sad that her comments are lost because we want to debate about realistic and unrealistic. I think the author understand that as parents our goals for are children are ideals and that reality is hard.

Mother of four
There's error on both ends.


Agree with aurorawatcher
Abstinence is quite realistic--I was able to abstain until age 42+ (the age at which I married), even though I was not a Christian (even in name) until age 31.

Its About Self-Respect,
Its about self-respect as well as respect for others.

Does a girl lie down on the public highway with her feet in the air offering herself to anyone who shows an interest or does she value herself highly enough to reserve the precious gift of the most intimate possible physical/spiritual/emotional connection only to someone worthy of a life-long commitment?

Self-respect is about deciding that you are a reasoning being rather than an animal. Respect for others is about crediting them with being reasoning beings as well.

Does a boy think that the girls he goes out with are the sort who lie down nude on the public highway that way or does he have the respect to believe that any girl worthy of his interest values herself enough to insist on that life-long commitment? And does he have enough self-respect to refrain from using and throwing away the girls who prove that they don't have that level of self-respect?

Ethan et al

you all are clearly hung up on sex.

The current growth in single motherhood has proven to be a huge burden on society, both financially and emotionally.

Most other activities that burden society are outlawed, why should single motherhood be the exception, especially in light of the fact that it is much more damaging to society than many other activities for which citizens are fined and jailed?

My comment was not about the morality of pregnancy outside of marriage. It was about the anti-social consequences of pregnancy outside of marriage.

Abortion clinics keep records. Unmarried women getting abortions would face the same consequences as unmarried women who give birth. Women who marry before giving birth would receive their fine back and be released from jail.

donjindra,

clear your thought processes, sex acts performed solely for pleasure are clearly the using of another person as an object.

When a person treats other persons as objects, they are totally wrong and only increasing the chaos, anger and hatred currently present in the world.


Andrea are you judging Bristol Palin
Andrea

"Fornication

is a sin, no matter whether the offender is a liberal or a conservative. How sad to hear Bristol say that God's standards are unrealistic. Ultimately, it is God she has rebelled against, not just her mother. We teach our children God's expectations, if they don't live up to them there is forgiveness when they repent, but if they fail they are responsible not their parents. "


God's standards are unrealistic. I am unsure want to make of your comment. God calls us to perfection all fall short of the glory of God. We are sinners in need of Savior. It is not repentance that reconciles us to God it is Jesus atoning sacrifice that reconciles and justifies us. We are accepted by God because of Christ, by ourselves we are unworthy.

Sure fornication is a sin, but we daily commit sins of omission and commission of which we must repent. We all fall short. Why talk about Bristol in this manner her sinner in no greater or lesser then any other sin from which one must repent.

Read Romans 7-8, if you think it is your work and not Christ work in you.

What Ideals Are
I applauded Bristol Palin for speaking the truth. She is in a MUCH better position to judge than Marybeth Hicks in this matter because it's happening to her. She understands how realistic it is and all this article does is make a slippery slope argument that realism will cause all children to be deviant. But that's not true. Ever ear of the "kicking an elephant" situation? When you tell someone 'don't kick elephents' what's the first thing that comes to mind? Kicking elephants of course!

Just telling people not to do something is not enough. Kids have to understand that there are consequences to their actions and that it is possible to do certain behaviors responsibly. That's a reasonable, rational, realistic way to deal with these issues. Abstinence is fine, but not everybody is going to live up to that ideal. That's why it's an ideal. Criticizing people for pointing that out is just plain irrational.

Instruction Book
Heres the problem in a nut shell!
They threw away the instructions on how to raise the child,so we tend to let Dr Phil,Spock,or any other fruitcake out there that thinks they know more than we do.

Parents don't take their kids to church where at least they may get a few tads of instruction.Most wuld rather sleep in after a night on the town expecting the baby sitter or Grams to tell the child right from wrong!
And that's exactly what's wrong with the country today(everybody does what's right in their own eyes)!Take the bible out of school too;theres no place for that here(GOODNITE,remember''seperation from church and state)?You wonder why kids are sexually active and drunks before we ever attempted such a thing years ago?
Churches are not out soul winning,neither have a mid-week service,but rather let the school activities to regulate theres!It's a shame pastors accross the country have given up and you see churches closing because of lack of attendance.

Untill we get back to what God had intended for us to do,our nation will continue this down hill spiral!

STAN
"Parents don't take their kids to church where at least they may get a few tads of instruction.Most wuld rather sleep in after a night on the town expecting the baby sitter or Grams to tell the child right from wrong!"

That's simplistic. I never took my sons to church. I never mentioned religion of any sort. I never read a parenting book. I've never been drunk. I had no problem with my sons. They turned out great.

Discipline anyone
It seems to me that a fornicator who denounces abstinence as "unrealistic" is merely stating a classic circular argument. Of course she found it unrealistic. She chose not be abstinent! What I find more galling, however, is why that choice amounts to an expertise on the subject, and thus makes the individual stating it a spokesperson for fornication. The various poor outcomes of fornication (untimely pregnancy, STD's, single parenthood, poverty, "guilt", etc.) are a far stronger argument against it than are the positive (?) experience of a single individual challenged with some of those consequences for it. I counsel my children, both boys and girls to be abstinent, not because of some moral law against sex, but because of the very challenging consequences associated with it. Certainly I can point to their parent's experience as evidence it is possible to choose abstinence successfully, but that's not my main argument to them. A stronger one is that of "keeping the marriage bed holy." Here I find it very helpful to explain to my kids that the discipline of abstinence before marriage will provide them with ample experience necessary to remain disciplined in these matters after they are married and to be able to resist the, sometimes remarkably strong, tendency toward adultery. In my opinion, for what it’s worth, adultery is a bigger issue than is fornication. More likely than not children are actually involved when adultery comes to the bed, and not merely possibly involved as in the context of fornication (at least early in the relationship when the justifications haven't hardened into resolve), and trust is such a fragile commodity. Abstinence matters because discipline matters. That's where its power and value comes to the fore. Is this not the underlying explanation for why moral law puts a line between the married and the not married? Is there any alternative to experience--of whatever kind we’ve all, clearly, had?



eddie too
I did not suggest sex should be performed solely for pleasure or that one should use another as an object.


Donjindra


Donjindra: People who think of sex as a selfish act may need to improve on their technique.


Jen: People who don’t think of sex outside of marriage as purely selfish have no idea what it means to be self less.


Donjindra: I'll add that it is selfish to expect other people to live their lives to your specifications.


Jen: Really? Is it selfish of you to request your teen-ager not drink and drive? Are you being selfish when you demand a person who enters your house abide by the house rules? Is it selfish of you to not let others treat you in any manner they see fit?

We should all be a little more selfish based on your definition of the word.


oh here we go...
While I agree that using addictive drugs, having promiscuous unprotected sex, driving without a seatbelt are ALL risky behaviors: the issue of SEXUALITY and being realistic and INFORMED about it is still escaping the majority of this thread.
I agree that channeling one's sexuality through enduring relationships, monogamy and marriage are an admirable goal.

However, much of our youth, especially gay youth are not treated properly in this regard and young people of all backgrounds are not given the opportunity to learn about their tumultuous emotional states as they become more hormonally charged and their physiological 'brakes' are not in effect yet.

Abstinence is fine for CHILDREN, for the under aged, but most of our typical posters when sexuality is something that they'd rather treat unrealistically for sure.
Lifelong abstinence is a lonely and burdensome state, when relationships and marriage are happening all around you.

And sometimes, THAT'S when a person is most vulnerable to making relationship mistakes.

This is NOT a religious issue, such information is woefully misogynist and anti gay. The two most vulnerable members of the population who deserve better treatment than they get in sexuality discussions.

eddie too
Sorry eddie, your idea has so many problems attatched to it, not sure where to start.

Even if they could get abortion records in a practical sense (they cant), getting abortion records will only force women to lie on their form, for example checking the box, "married" even though they are not. Now the prosecutor has no way of telling who is or isn't married.

This would be a red tape nightmare and cost taxpayers more money than it got in return. Jailing cost for a year. Prosecuting costs. Not to mention all the manpower taken away from real crimes, thus causing other criminal activity to increase. Your proposal would be a disaster.

And you still havn't addressed the male aspect of the equation or the fact that abortion would indeed become more attractive in this setting thus increasing abortion rates.

Now you bring in a "married before birth" clause". That's a winner (because everyone knows that forced marriages work so well) The divorce rate would skyrocket.

Your plan doesn't work in a free society, sorry no other way to put it. Maybe Iran or N Korea. But not America today. In a few years after Obamarule, who knows?

Alejandro
Hey, man! Good to hear from you again.

To answer your question, God gave us sex to enjoy in marriage. Without that commitment you are robbing the other person. There is always self-gratification, if a biological release is all one wants. :)

Just throw something away
If you find those shoes where they don't belong after telling them more than once, go in their room, take something they care for...and throw it out.

You'll have no more problems with shoes being where they don't belong.

du


Du: Lifelong abstinence is a lonely and burdensome state, when relationships and marriage are happening all around you.


Jen: Your world-view of sex and marriage is so depressing. If you have children, I hope you don’t project your very unhealthy and untrue beliefs on them.


Andrea


Andrea: There is always self-gratification, if a biological release is all one wants. :)


Jen: Your world-view of sex (although, perhaps at the opposite end of the spectrum as du’s) is equally unhealthy and mistaken.

Sex outside of marriage is not simply wrong b/c it could result in unwanted pregnancy or disease. Sex outside of marriage is wrong b/c it is using the sexual gift that God gave us in a way in which our Lord did not intend.

This is true even if one chooses to have sex with himself. Think about it. What must one do in order to masturb*te? It requires lustful thoughts (typically gotten by viewing p*rnography). It requires one to treat another as an object for their own desire.

You can argue there are health benefits to “pleasuring” oneself. But exercising, shooting hoops, enjoying a hobby, etc. have health benefits too. Why not try one of those and not offend God in the process?

”But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” –Matthew 5:27

Terry

Ooh, Terry, not a bad idea.

Or how about just throwing out their shoes? By the time they are down to one ratty pair of tennis shoes left, they might have learned their lesson.

Alive in Him (But Dead Where it Counts)
You say "What liberals fail to understand is that raising a child is a huge responsibility"

This is perhaps the stupidest and least accurate things I've ever seen on Townhall.

christiancons
I said nothing about how one is saved, which is totally by grace based on Christ's perfect and sufficient work. Rather, I was responding to a report in this column that Bristol thinks her parent's expectations of abstinence are unrealistic. If the author has taken Bristol's comments out of context or misconstrued them, then you need to address that concern to Mrs. Hicks.

My contention is that Bristol's parents' expectation of abstinence before marriage is also God's standard. Fornication is a sin. Furthermore, God's standards are not unrealistic no matter what the surrounding culture is like. 1 Corinthians 10:13: "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." Roman/Greek culture was full of licentiousness, yet Paul told the church to "flee fornication."



Jen
You're absolutely right. I stand corrected.

Jen
If someone doesn't behave in their adult life according to how you believe they should, you seem to define that as selfishness. Drunk drivers are breaking the law and clearly endangering people. Most laws are not selfishly motivated. The way you and others throw around selfishness it will soon be obsolete through overuse.

Sex is inherently not a selfish act. Yes, it can be done selfishly, but couples are involved. A partner's experience should be important. You could argue that teens are not yet proficient but as I recall they do try.

Let's try to take them seriously
Let's try to take Mother of 4, eddie too, jen at al seriously for a minute. (Is there an emoticon for losing the ability to stop from laughing?)

Either they mean that it is their personal belief that because their sky pixie says so, they (and their fellow travelers) must not have sex outside marriage. At all. Marry early, postpone (or abandon) a career, and, of course, no gay sex.

If that's what they believe, it's their business. It also acts as further evidence that at least some sky-pixie people are not merely fantasists, but actually insane. (I offer our celibate friend eddie too as a case in point.)

Alternatively, they wish to impose either by law (good ol' eddie too!) or through societal pressures their theocratic repression. Think Iran, Saudi Arabia. And especially think about what that does to the young men in those countries.


Andrea
Generally, people put sex on a pedestal. There are those who go out constantly with no other purpose than to get laid. They see sex as the ultimate act of pleasure, to be pursued with maximum effort. On the opposite end of the spectrum, there are those who see sex as a sacred act to be undertaken only under very constrained conditions (which you have elucidated). It's these two perspectives that seem to drive discussion on the subject.

I don't put sex on a pedestal. It's a fun activity that people may choose to engage in. People need to relax. The first time most people have sex, the last thing on their mind is whether or not they are going to marry that person or have a kid. Of course, they should take the necessary precautions to make sure that the latter does not occur.

I'm wondering how many people who preach abstinence actually practice/d it.


No, Mellor,
No, the ones who are insane are the ones who promote a lifestyle that purport to be responsibility-optional and consequence-free but which actually leads to physical, financial, and spiritual destruction.

To actively advocate behavior which leads to poverty, disease, death, emotional disconnection from others, perversion, depression, emptiness, and social pathology is the true measure of insanity.

Study after study, usually undertaken in hopes of proving tradition wrong, has shown that married couples are happier by all measures of happiness -- especially in their sex lives, where married, evangelical Christians come in at the top of the heap every time.

Study after study, usually undertaken in hopes of proving tradition wrong, has shown that children being raised by their married, biological parents are better off by every measure of well-being.

Hard as it is for people like you to choke down, truth is that tradition got it right about the family and anyone who continues to deny it is suffering from dangerous delusions.

Donjindra,
Seeking sexual pleasure without being willing to undertake the responsibilities and obligations of marriage is most definitely a selfish act.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

The benefits of marriage, regular (and terrific), sex being one of those benefits, are not available to those who refuse to assume the consequent responsibilities.

Bristol Palin was silly enough to call her baby's father "a hands-on dad". She's dead wrong.

A hands-on dad would have married her instantly and, instead of seeing the baby almost every day as she said he did, would be there for her and the baby 24/7/365.

He wouldn't just be there to play with the baby for a few hours, he'd be there at 3am when the baby is screaming and Bristol hadn't gotten any decent sleep for a week. He wouldn't be visiting, he'd be a constant part of the baby's life.

And it goes the other way too since a mother in that situation, by making the father a mere outsider who visits at her convenience, fails to give the father equal stake in the baby.

It was a selfish act on both their parts to have sex instead of getting married first. Each, by grabbing some selfish pleasure, has cheated the other out of the benefits of a committed relationship.

Both together have cheated their baby out of the benefits of being raised by two parents who were willing to fully commit themselves to their relationship.

There is nothing the remotest bit "unreasonable" about parents teaching their kids how to avoid cheating and being cheated by the people they love though the exercise of self-control rather than selfish indulgence of lust.

Andrea
I was not writing so much about salvation as about one's ability to resist sin that is why I referred to Romans 7 and 8. I am really stomped by your comment that "God's standards are not unrealistic…" I can figure out what you mean. God's standards are perfect. Human beings are not.

It is not only unrealistic to expect human beings to meet God's standards it is denial of the Gospel. God knows that man is unable to meet his standard that is why he gives us a savior who can perfectly fulfill the law. We cannot, Bristol cannot fulfill the law. If we could, we would not need a savior.

It is the Spirit that dwells in us that resist sin; therefore, for man God's standard is unrealistic. If it was possible for man to resist sin, it would be possible for man to fulfill the law and a savior would not be necessary.

I do not imagine that any Christian would deny that fornication is sin. I think Bristol acknowledged that it was unrealistic to expect her not to sin. I do not think that Bristol said God's standard is unrealistic. Her comments make it plain that she believes it is better to wait for marriage.

18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. Romans 7:18-20.

Dangerous delusions?
Well, Mother, your entire post is a delusion for I never suggested any of the words you put in my mouth.

Take, for example, a couple that meet, have sex, maybe children, and stay together monogamously throughout their lives, but never marry. According to you, this happy couple should instead simply refuse to have this happy life--unless they marry.

That's insane. And if you intend to force YOUR opinion on the couple it's fascist.

BTW, children who believe in Santa are happier than those who don't. Does that mean we should believe in Santa?

Realistic Family Ideals
There is nothing unrealistic about teaching your children right from wrong and expecting them to live their lives that way. The irresponsible behavior we see today stems from the lowdown culture we accept in our country. The real culperts are Hollywood, Professional sports, Entertainers, especially rappers, Media, Television, and low expectations from parents, churches and schools. As for politicians, they also contribute to the rampant immorality in this country. Pretty bad when the Pope has to chastise The Speaker of The House of Representatives (Nancy Pelosi-D-CAL) for her failure and refusal to live the tenants of her so-called faith and protect the unborn. Expect the best from our youth and don't be afraid to teach and exemplify by your own behavior that living an honorable life is possible. Those of you who want to write your cute little epistles calling me names, etc. Knock yourself out--both literally and figuratively.

And That is WRONG,
Alejandro says, "The first time most people have sex, the last thing on their mind is whether or not they are going to marry that person or have a kid."

And that is WRONG. Toxic, deadly, poisonous WRONG.

Promoting sex as having no more significance than watching a movie or going to a sporting event is exactly what I'm talking about -- advocating a lifestyle that purports to be responsibility-optional and consequence-free.

All questions of religion aside, humans are hard-wired to form emotional bonds through sex. This is established science. But what tradition has long understood while science has only recently uncovered is that by repeatedly forming then tearing apart those bonds people damage their ability to make long-term, emotional commitments.

Additionally, since no contraceptive is perfect, the FACT that sex makes babies remains unchanged. Going to a movie or a ball game is fun, but it doesn't tie your to that stranger for the rest of your life. Making a baby together does.

People for whom marriage and children are "the last thing on their mind" need to stick to the ballgames, movies, fishing trips, theater performances, and other activities that don't involve destroying their own ability to form emotional commitments or plunging themselves, their date, and their children into a lifetime of lowered potential.

Its not unreasonable for parents to expect their kids to exercise a little self-restraint for their own, long-term, best interests.

Not in my world, mother
"since no contraceptive is perfect, the FACT that sex makes babies remains unchanged"

Ever heard of gay people?

donjindra

Donjindra: Sex is inherently not a selfish act. Yes, it can be done selfishly, but couples are involved.

Jen: Sex within marriage is inherently not selfish. In fact, within marriage it is self-giving. Sex outside of marriage is ALWAYS selfish.

How is it not selfish to have sex with another person (where serious consequences that can have a major affect on the person’s life) to whom you are not married? Are you thinking of them? What? Are you implying the fleeting pleasure you are so selflessly guaranteeing them is worth the very real consequences inherent in the sexual act?

I’m not sure if you are ignorant or just that egotistical????

christiancons


Christiancons: I think Bristol acknowledged that it was unrealistic to expect her not to sin. I do not think that Bristol said God's standard is unrealistic.

Jen: Bristol remarked that it is unrealistic to expect a person to be able to wait until marriage to have sex. She is wrong. It is unrealistic to believe we can go it alone, but had she only had more faith in God, it would have been a perfectly realistic expectation.

Too bad more people don’t realize that with God all things are possible. Yes, the Lord of Lords can create the universe AND help you control your libido too!

Jen
"People who have no intention of getting married should not have sex. "

This is one of the most breathtakingly childish statements I've seen on this thread. It is extremely funny and extremely sad. Apart from the sheer ridiculousness of it, I can only think of all the people in my life who are not married through no choice of their own. That you would like to deny them their birthright exemplifies the kind of narrow, shrivelled morality that conservatives usually express.

christiancons
I apologize if I am not being clear. I think the difficulty we are having is that we are really talking about two different things. You are saying that man cannot keep God's law perfectly and I agree that that is what the Bible teaches. Hence, our need for a Savior. However, I am talking about what expectations we have of our children (and ourselves). We do not lower God's standards because of our inability. That would be antinomianism. Furthermore, God's standards cannot be unrealistic, because God's law is perfect (Ps. 19:7).

When we sin, and all of us do, we confess our sins and move on striving to be more faithful. 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." But, we must not say that God (or our parent) was wrong to hold us to a standard.

Mother of 4 said
"Encouraging teens to act like animals in rut is the denial of their humanity."

Hey, I totally agree, and I'm sad for you that you think of sex as "acting like animals in rut". I think you married exactly the right person.

I don't think anybody, at any age, is strengthened by acting "like animals in rut", I certainly wouldn't encourage it. But, somehow, I just never think of sex that way.

Silly me.



Jen

Jen why is Bristol wrong when she says "…it is unrealistic to expect a person to be able to wait until marriage to have sex."

"… had she only had more faith in God, it would have been a perfectly realistic expectation." Oh my, are you sure, you really want to stand by that remark?

I am going to pull back, because we are really going too far. I am not certain what Bristol meant by unrealistic since she was responding to Greta's question. Greta asked a question that Bristol did not want to answer. Greta then asked her to address the question more broadly and not about herself specifically.

At that point, she said abstinence was unrealistic. I think even this thread demonstrates that abstinence is not realistic for everyone when many people have different values and different belief systems. No matter your beliefs, abstinence requires one to resist temptation and to succeed always. I think that broadly speaking it is unrealistic to expect everyone to abstain.

I will certainly teach my children that it is best to wait for marriage, and to teach them a more complete view of sex so they understand that at its fullest it is about creating life.(they are only 5 and 2 now) My children are raised in a Christian household and I will always remind them that it is Christ that strengthens us that when we feel weak we must call upon the Lord. I will also raise them with Grace so they know that they are forgiven.

Some of you folks praising yourselves remind me of skinny people talking about dieting.

Aurora
My point had nothing to do with so-called "mystery religions". You seem to think that human history started with Christianity, with a father-God siring a demi-god with a human (do you know how often this story has been told in human history, in hundreds of variations, but with the same core "facts")?Do you really think the Christian story was the first story of it's kind?

I suggest that aside from reading your bible, you read some of the other writings from pre-Christian times, (those that weren't destroyed by Christians in the second century along with libraries, great art, and architectural wonders) and try to look at the story of human history in less truncated and isolated terms.

Thanks Andrea

I fully agree with you.

Don't get me wrong, Aurora
I don't think that an ardent belief in virgin birth, resurrection, flying people, and messages from above are any different than being firmly convinced in Gods that rule from the sun, assume the shapes of animals, that travel the sky at day, or that die and are reborn every 24 hours. And everybody who believes or who did believe those things are every bit as convinced as you are.

But I can't prove that any of things don't exist, so I guess conversation between us is not possible.

ethan
The Bible starts with Genesis. Christian theology starts with creation so why would Aurora need other writings from pre-Christian times. Those writings would not pre-date a Christian worldview.

I have often wondered...
why folks on both of this issue never talk about the length of time a young person would have to wait these days from onset of hormones and actually walking down the isle? It is a long time and getting longer all the time. It is a long time when you consider that most young men I know are not marrying until about 30. With the complexity of society, college, grad school, paying back school loans...these kids don't feel they can get married any sooner. So they are physically mature adults for a decade or more before they could have sex by these standards.
There was a reason why people got married young "back in the day." My parents were 20 and 22-year-old virgins. Not unreasonable.

I hope that my girls will wait until they are married--but I also hope they don't have to wait until they are 30 to get married. I could hardly blame them, with all of the pressures and sexualized messages they will have been bombarded with.

I just never hear anyone address this angle of the difficulty of abstinence.

Ethan
I have read many of those other "pre-Christian" writings. I'm frightfully literate, actually, with an advanced degree and a huge library in my home, not to mention a well-used library card.

I'm suggesting that before you pass judgment on Christianity and try to cast the birth of Jesus as the sexual union of a god with a human creating a demi-god (which the Bible very definitely does NOT teach) that you actually read it.

It HAS to be possible, ethan
"But I can't prove that any of things don't exist, so I guess conversation between us is not possible. "

This places the burden of responsibility in the wrong place. It is moral relativism of the worst kind. Conversation IS possible based on facts.

Mother makes the point that monogamously married xians are "happier" than other people. That can be verified one way or another, if we can define "happy" in an objective way. We can proceed from there. And so on with other facts.

The same applies when the sky-pixie people say their god is resurrected every 24 hrs. Or whatever. THEY have to demonstrate the veracity of this statement, not you disprove it. That's where the responsibility lies.

Conversation is only impossible if we allow any absurd claim, unbacked by evidence, equal time. I claim the Great Elf created the universe, and I have the Book of Toadstools to prove it. Does that stop the conversation? Only until I provide evidence. You don't have to do a damn thing.

In short, until they provide evidence for their assertions (and mother, BTW, at least referred to some), they really have nothing to say.


ethan
If anything, those pagan myths are a poor imitation of the real story. Not the other way around. Christianity is unique among the world's religions as no other faith system provides a genuine atonement for sin.

mellorese talk
Married people aren't happy.

Having a standard is fascism.

Gay sex is the ultimate contraception.

Happy fools believe in Santa.
--------------

Did they take your 'blue' berry from you?


Sex is NOT evil
Sex within marriage is the best of things! It's two people connecting on a spiritual and emotional level that transcends the physical. Each takes something deep and undefinable from the other and gives back something more precious than rubies.

How anyone would want to do that with a stranger or semi-stranger baffles me. How you could be that close to another human being and then just let them pass out of your life -- incomprehensible!

My husband wasn't a Christian until he was 21, so wasn't a virgin when we married. He'd been celibate by choice for a couple of years, though. He says he can't really remember those sexual encounters as a teen, but that he thinks they were purely physical unions. What haunts him now is that for at least one of those girls he knows that it was more than just physical with her. He knows this because he's talked to her since and she has said "You took something from me that I can never get back." How many people experience that loss and just aren't self-aware enough to identify it? We're told by our society that if we don't get off on emotionally disconnected sex there's something wrong with us. Is there? Or is it society that's all messed up? I think society has a major spiritual disability and that unmarried sex is one of the symptoms of the disorder.

Jen
"Sex outside of marriage is ALWAYS selfish."

Sorry, that's nonsense.

"How is it not selfish to have sex with another person (where serious consequences that can have a major affect on the person’s life) to whom you are not married?"

There are not necessarily "serious consequences" in having sex. And if there are, you seem to be saying they cannot be handled when in fact they are often handled. Sometimes -- actually quite frequently -- there are serious consequences even within marriage which are not adequately handled due to a future divorce. So was that prior sex suddenly retroactively "selfish"? No. You're position is judgmental nonsense.

"Are you implying the fleeting pleasure you are so selflessly guaranteeing..."

You are the one who selfishly wants to deny them the "fleeting" pleasure. Suppose I say your taxes should be raised because all you use that money for is "fleeting" pleasure? I mean, who needs a flat screen TV? It's just selfishness when there are kids in Africa who have no TV.

You see how that works?

"I’m not sure if you are ignorant or just that egotistical?"

Now that's the kettle calling the pot black! You're the one who is approaching this egotistically and ignorantly. You're the one who, like God, wants to tell people how to run their own lives without a clue about their lives. Don't pretend otherwise.





Moonbeam
"Married people aren't happy."

Fascinating. Please show me where I claimed any such thing.


"Having a standard is fascism."

Imposing YOUR standards on others is fascism.


"Gay sex is the ultimate contraception."

Now that would be true, wouldn't it?


"Happy fools believe in Santa.'"

Read it again, western moonbeam.


"Did they take your 'blue' berry from you?"

?


I see much of your problem centers around reading comprehension.

Lisa
Length of time has nothing to do with it. I started puberty at age 10 and I married at age 25. Like any other sort of discipline, controlling oneself actually gets easier with practice. For our wedding night we went to a cabin in the woods because we weren't planning to control ourselves and we didn't.

What many people don't realize is that people of other generations also married late. The average age of marriage in 1900 was 24 for women, I believe. My maternal grandparents were both 25 and claimed to have been virgins on their wedding night. The funny family story involving a tiny hotel room and Grandpa trying to get his pants off indicates to me that they were telling the truth. Grandpa was honest that he was just too shy to talk to a woman and have sex, but Grandma was an outgoing vivacious woman who chose not to have sex until she got married. They had six children out of eight pregnancies spread over 14 1/2 years. I'd say Grandpa got over his shyness. One of my cousins accidently walked in on them when they were in their 60s, so I don't think they waited because they had sexual hang-ups.

Donjindra
God doesn't have a clue about people's lives?

I'm going to submit that if God really is the Supreme Deity of the Universe (which, I know you and I disagree on) that He does indeed have a clue about our lives. He can read our very thoughts and the Letter to the Hebrews says He knows what we're thinking even when we aren't sure what we're thinking. So His attempts to tell us how to live our lives are a product of His supreme understanding us that far exceeds our own understanding of ourselves.

aurora
The average age for marriage for women in 1900 was 22 years, not 24.

Mellorese, lost in translation.
Did I(eye) mispell (misspell) blue (bleu) berry (barry) hint hint.



Moonbeam
I see your impaired ability to read extends to your inability to write a coherent sentence.

Hey Mark
I'm off for the day. Had a couple of more stories about Silver Lake over at the Thomas thread.

Somehow I think the beer got smuggled plenty into the park. Some of those stunts couldnt be pulled off sober.

Aurora--ew, TMI!!
I really didn't want to know the details of your wedding night--geez! Or you Grandpa's.

I am a Christian--but I always find myself at odds with the "religious" gang on TH when it comes to these issues. I am not advocating any different morality than you are...but pie-in-the-sky religion doesn't work for everyone and neither does moralizing at them. I also look at the practical side of it, and those who don't think the length of time matters are mistaken.

I think the delaying of marriage has a lot to do with the "hookup" culture phenomenon on college campuses as well. When I graduated from college, I was almost engaged. Many of my classmates graduated in May and married in June--only 23 years ago. Marriage was not a distant hope. It is easier to wait for things when you know how long and that it is not forever.

These kids now, male and female, know that there is no point in getting involved with anyone because no young men will be asking women to marry them for many years if at all. I think there is a kind of hopelessness and uncertainty that marriage will ever be in the picture for them. I think they are just killing time to some degree.

It is a sad situation I wish we as a society could address. But we can't address it if we can't admit that asking people to wait longer than some are emotionally capable of is a problem.

mellon head
What? Like to dish it up, but no likey to eat?


ethan

Ethan: I can only think of all the people in my life who are not married through no choice of their own. That you would like to deny them their birthright exemplifies the kind of narrow, shrivelled morality that conservatives usually express.

Jen: Since when is immorality a birthright? And what exactly makes you think a person who never marries and therefore should never have sex would be destined for a miserable existence? Wow! With a message like that good luck trying to teach people to do the right thing.

christiancons


Christiancons: I think even this thread demonstrates that abstinence is not realistic for everyone when many people have different values and different belief systems. No matter your beliefs, abstinence requires one to resist temptation and to succeed always. I think that broadly speaking it is unrealistic to expect everyone to abstain.

Jen Wrong. It may be unrealistic that everyone will successfully abstain, but it is not unrealistic to expect them to try. In fact, it is imperative we only teach the truth. And the truth is – sex outside of marriage is always wrong. To dumb the truth down and say, “Yes, you should probably wait, but if you can’t be safe.” Is doing our children a serious disservice. You shouldn’t probably wait – you should wait.

When would it ever be in a person’s best interest to have sex outside of marriage?

Shouldn’t al parents want the very best for their child and not settle?




christiancons: Some of you folks praising yourselves remind me of skinny people talking about dieting.

Jen Skinny people tend to be skinny b/c they know what is a proper diet. Who better to take dieting advice from?

Moonbeam
Write a sentence in English, and maybe we can converse.

Alternatively, you could continue with your nonsense. I'll be ignoring it.

Mark
Glad you enjoyed it!

Gotta run. The ferry leaves in five mins.

I believe it is more realistic for
young people to marry at an early age. I went to college with alot of married people that also worked full-time. When you fall in love you get married just like the old movies. It really is that simple. Waiting until you are nearly 40 so you can have everything first is silly. If you get married when your hormones are still working you may even have a good time.

Nonsense, ethan,
"all the people in my life who are not married through no choice of their own."

If a person is not so utterly repulsive in their physical appearance, moral character, and personality that they can't find people to have casual sex with OR if they are not locked in a small box devoid of all contacts with other people then they most certainly COULD have chosen a path that lead to marriage instead of singleness.

If a person passed up opportunities to marry early in life in favor of casual sex and the benefits of single living without family responsibilities or obligation then the inability to find a marriage partner later in life is the result of choices made.

Same for a person who has such incredible, fantasy-high standards for picking a partner that they have passed by people who would have suited them well because those people were in some way less than 100% perfect and the relationship didn't resemble a romance novel closely enough.

All choices have consequences. A person may find a point in life where he/she can't find a suitable candidate for a marriage partnership, but not "through no choice of his/her own". Rather, such a situation is due to the consequences of past choices.

And that is another area where it is not unreasonable to teach our kids to consider carefully the consequences of the choices they are making and to be sure that they enter into paths that delay or defer marriage only with due acknowledgment of what they might be giving up.

ethan, in re: #98
You are really stretching things. Your attempt to construct a straw man is many stalks short of a bale there.

You know that you've been deceptive, but for the benefit of those reading silently I'll restate the obvious.

Having casual, unconsidered, uncommitted sex is dehumanizing. There's no difference between humans coupling in casual lust and dogs mounting a b*tch in heat. Both are behaving purely out of animal instinct.

Humans are not animals. We are reasoning beings who are capable of rising above mere animal instinct to take control of our lusts and direct them into positive channels rather than the destructive negativity of casual sex.

Sex inside the bound of a committed marriage between man and wife is a transcendent binding of mind, body, and soul. Fire in its proper place is mankind's first and best servant.

But like fire out of place, sex run wild outside marriage destroys all that it touches.


Lisa,
I'm with you on the issue of our culture's over-extended childhood and the biological absurdity of over-late marriage.

Additionally, I'll raise the point of how such decisions make for fertility issues and difficult, even dangerous pregnancies and the problem of parents being elderly before they launch their children into the world.

I was in my early 40's when I had my 4th child. That's no problem for a multi-para, but it was harder on me than the earlier ones. And my oldest will be 18 this summer so, if some ill should befall my DH and I before the youngest is fully adult, he'll have adult siblings to help him.

But for women in their late 30's and early 40's to be having FIRST babies is not good either biologically or socially. A high school student shouldn't go from childhood straight to being caregiver for aging parents.

There needs to be a hard, bright line between childhood and adulthood and most people will be best-off if they marry at the biologically appropriate time of the late teens or early 20's and start having their children then.

Parents
If you want your kids to do "stuff" then give them an incentive.

When I and my brothers were young and in our teens, we wanted things, like new clothes and money for dates. The parents just didn't have it; both Dad and Mom's only real comments on how to address the issues were "get a job!" and earn your own spending and shopping money. We all did - all 6 of us.

You want the kids to text less, either take away the cell phone or do what my friend did to her wayward kid; she bought a phone with onely so many minutes per month; when the minutes were used up, the phone was off until the 1st of the month. She and I are both in our 50's, so we got along without the cell phone and the kids can too.

As for the shoes, well, the next time you pick them up, put them in the closet instead of the basket and see what happens. DON'T tell them anything and don't go and get the shoes for them. Your kids see you as a maid and an ATM. Stop being a doormat and demand your kids act in a more responsible manner!


cheap wine
I noticed a couple of others were posting on cheap wine. I was born in Buenos Aires and never hesitate to extol the virtues of Argentine Malbec. I've heard that it's gotten quite popular as of late in the States. You can find many for as cheap as $8.50 and rarely will you see one above $21. Alcohol content tends to run at 13.5%.

christiancons


Christiancons, let me ask you this . . .

Which do think would offend our Lord more, a person who engaged in pre-marital sex, or a person who engaged in premarital sex and got pregnant?

Why would it be so important to insure our young people that they have available contraception? Why add more immorality to an already immoral situation? It’s being overly concerned about human respect. It is like saying, yes, you broke one of God’s commandments and offended him, but did you atleast remember to clean up after yourself?


Also, what would upset you more, if you found out your child was having sex or smoking? Many today would be more upset to find out the latter. This is how messed up our world is. We are more outraged over pagan standards being violated than Gods.

Mother of 4
I, and I suspect many others, reject your contention that sex outside of marriage is, by your definition, destructively negative. That's clearly not true, as the experience of the vast majority of people who've ever had sex outside of marriage would confirm.

You make an analogy of fire, comparing sex within marriage as "Fire in its proper place is mankind's first and best servant", but then going on to say that "like fire out of place, sex run wild outside marriage destroys all that it touches."

That would be true if the only sex outside of marriage consisted of any man grabbing any woman on the street and forcing her to have sex with him, like the dogs in heat you mentioned.

In your fire analogy, sex outside of marriage is like using fire to cook a special meal--not a meal you have to eat because you're starving, but one you want to eat because you'll enjoy it.

Mother of 4
Strawman or not, your imagery of sex as fire is interesting to me - as soemthing highly dangerous, volatile, destructive, something that must be carefully controlled so as to prevent it from annihilating everything in sight and destroying the universe.

I'm all for restraint, good sense, mutual and self-respect. But I'm not afraid of sex, I'm more afraid of human nature, which I think has far more potential for destructiveness. I don't think of sex as a potentially horrible thing against which we have to be ever vigilant.

The child whe has been taught to respect himself and others will bring the same sensibility to sex that he brings to everything else.

Do you really think Palin's daughter got pregnant by "accident"? Do you think she didn't know how babies are made? do you think she didn't know how to prevent pregnancy?

I think people consciously or unconscious do exactly what they need to do, she is no exception. What a great revenge against a high-profile mother with whom you are always fighting!!!

Mellors SJ2 said to me
"Conversation IS possible based on facts."

I totally agree with you, that was my point. Virgin births, human resurrections, winged creatures that fly through the sky with messages are only "facts" in the sense that a flat earth was "fact" in the 12th century. I couldn't have a conversation about geography or physics with a person of that time any more than I can talk about cultural history with a fundamentalist Christian.

What amazes me is that Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Scientologists, Buddhists, etc., etc, all adamantly believe that they have been given the ultimate secret of life, and all others are deluded.



Jen, Thanks
For saying exactly what so many here are trying to say:
"Since when is immorality a birthright?"

The belief that somehow, when a judge signs a paper and declares you legally married, you are apparently bathed in light and permitted to have a sex life. Otherwise, you are "immoral".

This is kind of a conversation-ender for me, I will never believe that sex is "immoral" and that a religious or civil ceremony will somehow make you a good person if you have sex.

I'm not being rude, you believe what you believe and it's not my job to try to change that. I hope your life remains as clear and uncomplicated as it apparently has been to date.

Aurora
I think you're a very intelligent person, I never meant to imply otherwise. If I thought you weren't, I probably wouldn't respond to your posts.

Here is what I'm trying to say: Pretend you are on another planet, looking on earth through a powerful microscope that can cross any distance and speed up time. When you see thousands and thousands of years of human enterprise, a seemingly endless succession of building up and declining, instituting religions that last hundreds and hundreds of years, involving myths, incarnations, stories, objects of worship, rituals, all having narratives about the origins of the earth, about good and bad behavior, about the role of unseen forces (that often resemble a larger-than-life human), about miracles and magic, -- all of these religions resembling each other in substantial ways, and then, through your telescope you see one more civilization with yet another form of this practice, only ten minutes old when compared with previous religions, why would you think that your religious stories are any different, more exceptional? Everybody has thought exactly that; the ancient Egyptians, the Greeks, the Chinese, the Mesopotamians, they all stood at their place in the river of time, exactly like you and me, and said "Everybody was wrong, THIS is the answer, the Sun God is obviously the only religion that makes sense."

Children
don't listen to their parents, that's true. But as adults, those children will have these lessons ingrained into them. Usually even if there is no reason to continue doing it, an adult will follow his/her parents' rules that he/she heard millions of times.

ethan said:
"Do you really think Palin's daughter got pregnant by "accident"? Do you think she didn't know how babies are made? do you think she didn't know how to prevent pregnancy?
I think people consciously or unconscious do exactly what they need to do, she is no exception. What a great revenge against a high-profile mother with whom you are always fighting!!!"

Exactly how would you know this about the Palin family dynamics? I'm not a fan of SP, but you're jumping to some pretty serious conclusions, aren't you?

EDDIE TOO #1
YEAH AND THE GUY GETS CASTERATED!

DONJINDRA
So you lucked out! Still the bible commands us to teach our children,right from wrong. Prov22:6
Rom 12:1-2 Proverbs and Psalms will enlighten your soul.give it a try.
KJV Bible

who's to blame?
Mom and Dad of course!They were were more worried about their careers than to teach the kids anything.You let a gal like Bristol alone with a hormone harry,what do you think is going to happen?

ethan

Ethan: What amazes me is that Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Scientologists, Buddhists, etc., etc, all adamantly believe that they have been given the ultimate secret of life, and all others are deluded.


Jen: What amazes me is a person could actually think we are no different than animals. That a person doesn’t recognize we are more than a physical body. That the most important part about us is our soul that transcends time and space.

What amazes me is that a person would not believe there is an ultimate secret of life. That there is something out there bigger than our limited understanding.

Could it be to not recognize that our souls continue on even after our earthly bodies expire be the real delusion?

Have you any idea how many of your fellow man claim to have seen, heard, and or felt God? Do you discount them all? How can you be so sure it is we who are delusional and not you?







Jen
Where did I say I thought humans were no different from animals? Are you sure you were responding to the right person?

Do you think everybody that doesn't agree with you is an animal?

Jen
Have you any idea how many of your fellow men and women claim to have seen, felt, and heard Mohammed? Ishtar? Shiva? Buddha? L. Ron Hubbard? Zeus? Do you discount them all? How arrogant!

last, Jen
"What amazes me is that a person would not believe there is an ultimate secret of life. That there is something out there bigger than our limited understanding. "

Why are you having trouble understanding me? Where did I say that there is nothing outside of our limited understanding?

But what makes you think it is all about an invisible man in the sky?

The




oops
There are a substantial number of people around the world who are not crazy, but will tell you with absolute certainty that they have been abducted by space aliens.

Why would you not believe all of them?

Andrea
It's a basic tenet of simple psychology that if a person makes a "mistake" that could have easily been prevented, it's not likely that it was a total "mistake". I'm not saying it was a conscious decision, things often aren't. But let's face it, it's not likely that she didn't know how to prevent a baby. And it's not a secret that she had a stormy relationship with her mother.

People get pregnant for all kinds of reasons; some conscious, some not. sometimes a combination. Sometimes it's a great way to get attention, to get love you feel you have missed, to get a sense of identity, to get revenge. People aren't as one-dimensional as you all seem to think.

Aurora, I meant to ask you
In your library, do you include books that challenge your way of thinking, or just books that support it?

ethan

Ethan: Where did I say I thought humans were no different from animals? Are you sure you were responding to the right person?




Jen: Sorry. Perhaps I jumped to that conclusion based on your comments. Please enlighten me as to what you believe happens to us after we die.





Ethan: Do you think everybody that doesn't agree with you is an animal?


Jen: No, I think everybody that doesn’t believe in eternal truth (God) is wrong. I also believe that sometimes due to their unbelief they live as animals and are completely unaware.

I’m sorry that you don’t consider sex outside of marriage as immoral but it is. All religion aside, it is never in the best interest of the individual or society to do so.

ethan

Ethan: There are a substantial number of people around the world who are not crazy, but will tell you with absolute certainty that they have been abducted by space aliens.

Jen: A substantial number, huh???



Ethan: Have you any idea how many of your fellow men and women claim to have seen, felt, and heard Mohammed? Ishtar? Shiva? Buddha? L. Ron Hubbard? Zeus? Do you discount them all? How arrogant!


Jen: I discount them once I take a few minutes to study their religion. Once you look into any of the above religions you mentioned, they all have gapping holes.

Christianity was not invented by a science fiction writer (scientology). Christianity doesn’t encourage terrorists (Islam). Christianity doesn’t believe in a muscle bound deity who has multiple lovers and believes physical attributes are what really matter (greek mythology).

The Bible has been studied more than any other book in history. All the names, dates, and places add up. When understood properly, the Bible contains everything we need to know.

I encourage you to look into it.

ethan

My wine glass is empty indicating it’s time for bed. I will pray for you.

ethan
I think you are giving teenagers too much credit for forethought. You may also remember from your psychology course that teenagers tend to have the syndrome of "it can't happen to me" or "the personal fable." And so they take unnecessary risks like drinking and driving and having unprotected sex. We don't know whether Bristol used contraception or if it failed and that is way too private for us to delve into anyway. But, my 16 years of experience as a maternity nurse confirmed that many teens don't contracept because they don't believe they will get pregnant.

Drool!
Alejandro writes "[I] never hesitate to extol the virtues of Argentine Malbec."

Me either. Run out and buy a case. Or two.

I am especially fond of the ones from Catena in MDZ. I also ran into some excellent malbecs in the Colchugua Valley this January (2 hrs south of SCL), but I've never seen a Chilean malbec outside of Chile. Even the Australians have relatively few :(

Still.... next year's summer (i.e. January) jaunt is to MDZ, now that Argentina has dropped its entry tax. Maybe I'll ship a case home...

Give my love to EZE.

PS I'm also planning to go to SLA. Anything I should try there? Mmmm.

ethan writes
"What amazes me is that Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Scientologists, Buddhists, etc., etc, all adamantly believe that they have been given the ultimate secret of life, and all others are deluded."

Clearly, you need to watch more South Park.

There's a great scene with a bunch of people milling about the Gates of Hell, and a tour director (it's the only way to describe him) is saying "People! People! Settle down!"

A fellow with a dog collar starts whining about being a pastor, a xian, having done only good things, blah blah blah. The tour director tries again. "People! People! Listen up! The answer was Mormons! Now, the rest of you get on into hell!"

Laughed till I cried.

More Nonsense, Bruce,
That's more utter nonsense.

Every social pathology that troubles our country today can be traced to the dissolution of the family and the rejection of traditional values.

Consider Walter Williams's advice about poverty: "Avoiding long-term poverty is not rocket science. First, graduate from high school. Second, get married before you have children, and stay married. Third, work at any kind of job, even one that starts out paying the minimum wage. And, finally, avoid engaging in criminal behavior."

He places marriage and out-of-wedlock childbearing even before getting a job.

Sex outside marriage does not even remotely resemble a "special gourmet meal". Advocating casual sex is like taking a tub of hydrogenated palm oil shortening, mixing in a 5lb bag of refined, white sugar, and feeding it to a diabetic with heart problems.

ethan,
Not fear, respect.

Like it or not, sex IS fire. Or, if you prefer, consider it a loaded gun.

Fire is, as I said, man's first and best servant. But if you don't respect it, confine it in an appropriate place, and channel it to productive use the consequence is destruction.

Likewise, a loaded gun is a useful tool. Carried by a responsible citizen with due attention to The 3 (or 4) Rules of gun safety it prevents the strong from victimizing the weak. But in the hands of a careless or malicious person a loaded gun is a potent instrument of death.

Do you believe that its unrealistic to expect gun owners to observe the safety rules people be injured or killed?

Do you believe that its unrealistic to expect campers and hikers to confine their fires to safe situations lest they start a wildfire that destroys all in its path?

Its not unrealistic to expect teens, and everyone else, to treat sex with the same, careful respect given the severe, life-altering consequences of failing to do so.

A loaded gun in a responsible person's holster is good. A loaded gun in thug's waistband is bad.

A fire in a woodstove is good. A fire built in dry grass at the forest's edge is bad.

Sex inside a committed marriage is good. Sex between people who refuse to make that commitment is like giving a 5yo a loaded gun and pack of strike anywhere matches then plopping him and a few dozen of his friends down in a dry forest.

ethan,
How many kinds of diversionary nonsense can you come up with on this topic?

"People get pregnant for all kinds of reasons;"

People get pregnant for only ONE reason -- because they CHOSE to have sex.

Unwanted, unintended, unplanned pregnancy is 100% preventable -- a person can CHOOSE to refrain from having sex.

That is completely black and white.

No amount of libertinist obfuscation can cover up the fact that, unlike animals who are driven by the irresistible compulsions of instinct, humans are REASONING BEINGS, capable of CHOOSING to act upon or to refrain from acting upon their impulses.

We expect people to abstain from smoking and punish smokers both legally via punitive "vice taxes" and socially via ostracism. We as a culture don't even give smokers the option of a licensed and legitimate outlet for their smoking urges in the way that marriage provides a legitimate and approved outlet for people's sexual urges.

If people can abstain from smoking they can abstain from sex.

Mellon Brain
Come on Mellor, you are a southpark fan. You do realize I was mocking you, making fun of you, poking fun at your comments etc.... right? Am I not allowed to mock you or do you feel this is reserved for only yourself?

Jen
You are a bit of a self-righteous twit.

"Jen Skinny people tend to be skinny b/c they know what is a proper diet. Who better to take dieting advice from?"

Your comment is ridiculous. There are many reasons people are skinny that has nothing to do with a proper diet. Moreover, what works for one may not work for another? Certainly one who does not crave something is not the best person to get advice from on how to resist the cravings.

Since you are posting here I assume you have been alive long enough to meet people who eat tremendous amounts of food without becoming overweight. The average teenage boy is usually very fortunate in that regard, but I would not suggest one eat like a teenage boy if they are not one. Of one, my dearest friends can tell you how to keep weight off -- she would suggest cigarettes and coffee. Of course, in high school she would have recommended binging and purging.


Jen
"Jen Wrong. It may be unrealistic that everyone will successfully abstain, but it is not unrealistic to expect them to try."

Sure, my 5 year old and 2 year old have been doing great so far. What is your point everyone should try?

"…it is imperative we only teach the truth."

Who would this we be?

"…sex outside of marriage is always wrong."

Okay, but I do not think I suggested that it was right.

"To dumb the truth down and say, 'Yes, you should probably wait, but if you can’t be safe.' Is doing our children a serious disservice. You shouldn’t probably wait – you should wait."

About whom are you talking? Whose children? What 'our children'? We do not have any children together. I would certainly teach my children the things you said, but they are my children. I do not want society imposing its immorality on my children, so I am limited in imposing my morality on society's generic children.

I would certainly prefer that public schools sick to the facts. Abstinence should be mentioned along with contraception because it is the most effective way to prevent unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases.

"When would it ever be in a person’s best interest to have sex outside of marriage?"

I would not presume to know. Did Adam and Eve have sex outside of marriage? What is marriage?

24Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. Genesis 2:24

Is common law marriage a marriage? Are couples who cohabitate, but forsake all other's married? If two people commit to each other for life, are they married, prior to a religious ceremony?

I am glad you have all the answers, but I do not.


Jen
"Which do think would offend our Lord more, a person who engaged in pre-marital sex, or a person who engaged in premarital sex and got pregnant?"

I would not see a distinction. Pre-marital sex is the sin of which one should repent. Children are a blessing from God.

"Why would it be so important to insure our young people that they have available contraception?"

This seems an odd question to ask me since I have not previously said anything about contraception. I am not really sure what to say. I think if you are old enough to engage in sex you are old enough to purchase contraception. If a parent supports their child having sex, they can supply them with contraception if they wish.

Look this is a fallen sinful world I do not judge those outside the church. Nor do I establish standards for them.

9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."
1 Corinthians 5:9-13


Jen
"Also, what would upset you more, if you found out your child was having sex or smoking? Many today would be more upset to find out the latter. This is how messed up our world is. We are more outraged over pagan standards being violated than Gods."

My children are five and two. I would be horrified if they were doing either. Look smoking is dangerous and unhealthy, but it is not sinful. I really do not get worked up about this stuff. I will raise my children the best I can and I trust in God to see them through. Personally I think there is nothing more important then salvation. That is for eternity. I think we should guard against sexual immorality, but do not get into the business of ranking sin, because God does not say it okay to commit this sin and not okay to commit that sin. Sin is sin, and sin separates us from God. The Christian needs to daily repent of their sins, and never assume they are without sin.

The long and the short is I want my children to know right from wrong and to know that they have a loving God who is faithful and just to forgive them of their sins when they repent.

"We are more outraged over pagan standards being violated than Gods."

That is obviously not true. Perhaps you should say many rather than we. Especially if we means you and I, since neither of us are more upset over pagan standards being violated than Gods.



christiancons

Christiancons: You are a bit of a self-righteous twit.

Jen: well, as long as I’m just a bit and not entirely.

You completely missed my point.

First, as far as the little skinny people comment. I was merely responding to your silly example and trying to be funny. Obviously, you missed the humor.

Now, as to the topic at hand. Based on your posts, I took it that your position is that it is unrealistic to expect people to abstain from sex until they are married. I was pointing out, I believe it is unrealistic not to. IOW, you will not be successful in imparting the truth to others, if you don’t expect anything less from them. To say it is best to wait until one is married to have sex and in the same sentence say, but if you can’t . . . sends a mixed message. The person would think it really isn’t that big of a deal to wait, or the person may think, you must not believe I could actually do it. Either way you are selling the young person short. (And yes, I know I know your kids are 2 and 5 (I too have a 2 and 5yr old), but they will grow up.

Let’s not sugar coat the truth. Give it to them straight. Sex outside of marriage is always wrong! Is it tough to abstain? You bet. But with God’s help they can do it. Let them know how confident you are that they are up to the challenge. They deserve the best.

Also, based on your posts, I concluded you believe it important that kids be taught about contraception. I disagree. Contraception is most likely the reason society is in as big of a mess as it is. Ever since the readily made available use of contraception, pre-marital sex and promiscuity increased. Adultery increased. Divorce increased. And abortion increased. Contraception is not the answer.

Not to mention preventing yourself from getting a disease or getting pregnant might buy you some earthly time, but it doesn’t do a heck of a lot for your eternal salvation.

Jen you are right I missed your joke
Sorry

"Based on your posts, I took it that your position is that it is unrealistic to expect people to abstain from sex until they are married."

You are right I do think it is unrealistic to expect {some} people abstain from sex until they are married. I think it is unrealistic to expect people who do not believe that sex outside of marriage is wrong to abstain. Those people have a different worldview then I, their worldview is wrong, but it is their worldview.

"To say it is best to wait until one is married to have sex and in the same sentence say, but if you can’t . . . sends a mixed message."

That is not a mixed message it is a fact. Here are a few more. It is best to finish high school, but if you do not please get your GED. It is best to go to college, but if you do not please get a job. Broccoli is good for you, but if you hate it try the cabbage.

"Let’s not sugar coat the truth. Give it to them straight. Sex outside of marriage is always wrong! Is it tough to abstain? You bet. But with God’s help they can do it."

To paraphrase Paul that is a great message for the believer, but to the nonbeliever it is foolishness.

I happen to be a believer. It is the message I deliver, but not everyone will receive it.

Jen Contraception? Really?
"Also, based on your posts, I concluded you believe it important that kids be taught about contraception. I disagree. Contraception is most likely the reason society is in as big of a mess as it is. Ever since the readily made available use of contraception, pre-marital sex and promiscuity increased. Adultery increased. Divorce increased. And abortion increased. Contraception is not the answer.

Not to mention preventing yourself from getting a disease or getting pregnant might buy you some earthly time, but it doesn’t do a heck of a lot for your eternal salvation."

Now you rather resemble an anti gun person. Causing me to want to write Guns do not kill people people kill people.

You are blaming an inanimate object for people's sinful behavior. If this behavior started with contraception, why did God bring about a worldwide flood, why did he give the land of Canaan to the Israelites? Why did he destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? What did Paul see in Corinth and Athens? What was going on in Rome? Have you read what was going on in Jerusalem before the Babylonian captivity?


5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Genesis 6:5

I am not afraid of contraception my children are not going to turn into Mr. Hyde because some teacher tells them about barrier methods to prevent pregnancy and disease. I survived sex education with my Christian values intact.

I think the slippery slope started in the garden with some shared fruit.

eddie too
Pregnancy WITHIN marriage isn't always the event that one might want either.
You yourself display a breathtaking array of DRACONIAN expectations. Very likely most of which you couldn't meet on YOUR best day or with the best of intentions.

In this very thread, or in the discussion regarding sexuality, and our expectations as well as REALISTIC approaches in teaching the young, there is a woeful array also of ignorance.
Matthew made a good point up thread about starvation.
We know that teens have physiologically underdeveloped inhibitors, but they also have serious passions and tension and insecurities.
Young people are often love starved or equate love with sex. Gay children are especially vulnerable to this misguided thinking regarding starvation, and much judgment is passed onto them regarding the negative results of that later in life.

Teens are VERY serious about THEIR feelings and look to adults to be consistent, informative and TRUTHFUL.
Isolating teens for humiliation, fear or control, doesn't work.
Religious control even more so.
BTW, back in the day, these same sexual issues WERE there, it's just that there was less openness and realistic education.

There is STILL too much reliance on stereotypes and low expectations for anyone to take people who think like you seriously at all.
Another problem, not solution to this issue.

christiancons

Christiancons: You are blaming an inanimate object for people's sinful behavior. If this behavior started with contraception, why did God bring about a worldwide flood,

Jen: I’m not sure I completely follow your post. I am not blaming contraception for a person’s sinful behavior. I’m merely pointing out it does not help, prevent, or take away from the sinful behavior. It merely adds more sinful behavior to already sinful behavior.

For example “the world” thinks somehow if a person has sex out of wedlock and uses contraception then it isn’t quite as bad as if the person had unprotected sex outside of marriage. This is silly and irrelevant. Society believes as long as a person is “responsible” then having pre-marital sex is no problem.

Perhaps, you agree with me and disagree with this erroneous world-view. However, where perhaps we differ is, not only does “being safe” do nothing to erase the immorality of having sex outside of marriage, it actually adds to it. Contraception is inherently wrong. Now I realize not everyone believes this, but it is scriptural and it is true.

Therefore, I believe it is wrong to teach young people that they should engage in an immoral behavior (using contraception) if they plan on engaging in an immoral behavior (pre-marital sex). It’s a little illogical, don’t ya think? As Christians, we need to be more concerned about our children offending God and less about whether our children offend “society”.

christiancons

Christiancons: am not afraid of contraception my children are not going to turn into Mr. Hyde because some teacher tells them about barrier methods to prevent pregnancy and disease. I survived sex education with my Christian values intact.

Jen: Again, I don’t think you realize the ramifications of the “contraception mentality” and what it has led to. I encourage you to do a google search to better understand what I mean by that.

You say you survived sex ed with your Christian values intact. But if a major Christian value is knowledge of the intrinsic evil of contraception, then I’m not sure how intact your values are. I don’t mean to be arrogant, but if you believe the use of contraception is ok, then you don’t fully understand what God intended His gift to us of the marital act to be.

God intended for married couples to be open to life.

If we want to thwart or prevent the natural consequences of what might possibly occur in the sexual act as God designed it, then perhaps we shouldn’t be having sex (even if married). To say, Ok God, I would like to accept your gift of sex, but don’t really want to accept the possible conception part is a slap in the face to our creator. As if we know better than God?? Or as if His amazing gift to us needs a little tweaking???

Jen
Jen you are right that I agree with you on the contraception and pretty much everything else. My point about education was it did not alter my values in the end because what I learned from home, church, and the Bible proved more compelling.

I wish society were more neutral, but it is not. It daily contradicts what I know to be true, so I must daily share truth with those I encounter especially my children. I try always to explain to those I know that just because they heard it on TV, or school, or read it some place does not make it true.

I guess I feel futile trying to change the world so I just try to hold true to what I believe, and hope that I can change those who I encounter by sharing my beliefs. I love http://www.answersingenesis.org.
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