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Monday, September 11, 2006
Mary Katharine Ham :: Townhall.com Columnist
Beware the Truthers. Don't Ignore Them.
by Mary Katharine Ham
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Last night, I was headed home from the city around 9 p.m. I was driving over the 14th St. Bridge when I saw, on the other side of the Potomac, hundreds of fingers of light reaching for the sky. As I got closer, I saw they were coming from the center of the Pentagon.

I rounded the Pentagon on Washington Blvd. and saw an entire side of the building illuminated in blue, a giant American flag draped over the solid concrete wall of the nation’s military nerve center.

Flight 77 careened over that same road on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001 moments before slamming into the Pentagon and taking the lives of 184 people. Last night, a beam of light shone for each of those victims, rising toward the moon on a clear September night.

Hani Hanjour, a 29-year-old Saudi, flew that plane into the Pentagon in a suicidal strike on the “Great Satan,” America , driven by a sick Islamofascist ideology.

But there are some who don’t believe that. There are some who call that the “official story.” They say they seek the “truth” about what really happened on 9/11. The “truth,” according to them, is that a sinister cabal of neocon politicians arranged for a missile to hit the Pentagon and for a controlled demolition to bring down the Twin Towers.

These neocons killed almost 3,000 Americans in a bid to increase both the power of the Bush administration and the willingness of American citizens to support military action in the Middle East, according to the conspiracy theorists. They subsequently covered it up with the “official story” of bin Laden and 19 hijackers, according to members of the “9/11 Truth Movement.”

The head of this tinfoil hat brigade is Dylan Avery, a 22-year-old conspiracy theorist who has parlayed his creative version of history into two very popular Internet films, “Loose Change” and “Loose Change 2nd Edition.”

Avery and his cohorts’ research, theories, and “evidence” are so laughable that it can be easy to laugh off the movement itself. That was my reaction to this crowd until I took the time to watch “Screw Loose Change,” this weekend. “Screw Loose Change” is an extensive, three-hour-long debunking of Avery’s claims, which allows you to view Avery’s film along with a powerful presentation of all the evidence he distorts and omits.

Until I watched it and really let the Avery crowd’s accusations sink in, my reaction to the 9/11 Truthers was to say, “wow, they’re crazy. Moving on.” But I shouldn’t have moved on. I should have stopped and looked at the Truthers and listened to them a lot sooner.

It’s important for those of us who know what took the lives of 3,000 Americans five years ago today—four commercial planes with full loads of jet fuel and passengers driven by 19 murderous maniacs—to understand that there is a disturbingly large and vocal segment of the American population that doesn’t believe that.

A recent Scripps poll found that more than a third of Americans believe 9/11 was an “inside job.”

Truthers are professors and Democrat candidates for Congress.

The Truthers believe the American government planned and carried out the carnage of Sept. 11 on its own people, and they’re determined to tell the rest of us all about it. Today, the “Loose Change” kids planned to be at Ground Zero handing out free DVDs. On their website, they offer a free DVD to anyone who lost someone in the 9/11 attacks, and proclaim it everyone’s “duty” to watch the film. Continued...

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About The Author

Mary Katharine Ham is a contributor to Townhall Magazine.

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But, but...
Isn't Osama part of the Bush Conspiracy Team???

http://theinterface.townhall.com/g/6a892d2e-3ada-4d65-8246-ebb0212fc482

Find out the truth
Actually folks, there are quite a few Republicans that believe what we were told by the 9-11 Commission is a pack of lies. Dr. Paul Craig Roberts, who was Reagan's Asst. Secretary of Treasury; Morgan Reynolds, the chief economist in the Bush administration and many, many others. The article sites a Democratic candidate running for office. That would be Colonel Bob Bowman, who was the chief architect of President Reagan's Star Wars program. Is he to be disregarded now?

Sure, there are some whacko people out there, but the whackiest story I have heard is from the 9-11 Commission.

I have been a conservative all my life, but I firmly believe we are being lied to about 9-11. Who is responsible? I don't know. But, I do know we have been lied to. You should too. Even the head of the 9-11 Commission has recently admitted that they were lied to by Norad. Do you really believe it was because they were just embarassed? Give me a break.

The 911 Scholars for Truth is a good place to start researching some things.

For those that don't think there are factions within our government that could be involved in such a thing, you should check out the declassified government document called, Operation Northwoods.

http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/news/20010430/


911 Scholars for Truth
Here is the website for 911 scholars for truth:

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
- Teddy Roosevelt

Truth or lies
So why don't we really have a look at the truth. Before going into any 9/11 theories consider Bush lied about:

1) Seeing the first plane hit the tower (it was not televised until many hours later. His people were watching?)
2) According to the FBI, about Bin Laden's involvement with 9/11
3) He lied about Al Queda's involvement with 9/11 (FBI again)
4) He Lied about trying to find Bin Laden (he is in Pakistan, check the news)
5) Lied about trying to capture Bin Laden (he disbanded the CIA group tasked with finding him and looks to have assisted his escape to Pakistan.)
6) He lied about Saddam's involvement with Al Queda and Bin Laden.
7) He lied about WMD's in Iraq
8) He lied about Iraq's nuclear potential
9) He lied about the USA ever leaving Iraq (He's is building multiple permanent bases)
10 )He lied about not knowing people may use airplanes as weapons (the were warned d multiple times by many countries)
11) He lied about the terror report he received months before 9/11. A FEMA report have the WCT in cross-hairs on the cover!
12) He, through his father, made a fortune from 9/11 (along with most members of his staff). Cheney has bled the country dry with long term no bid contracts for Hilburton.
13) He did everything he could to prevent the 9/11 commission from being established.
14) He funded it with 3 million dollars (after spending 50 million on the Monica/Bill affair)
15) The 9/11 commission wanted to send the case to the justice department but through delay and loss of a member failed (read the commission was manipulated). He tried to appoint Kissenger as chairman -my God.
16) He refused to testify under oath.
17) He refuse to testify at all without Cheney at his side to answer questions.
18) I could go on for days. The lies just do not stop!
19) Bush removed the USA military bases from Saudi Arabia just like Osama asked him to.
20)-100) available on request

What exactly is your problem with finding the truth? You really are a wacko conspiracy nut. You base your beliefs on known lies. We have all the evidence and indicators of guilt on our side.
Oh and Mark Bingham's mother didn't think it was him either. Why don't you do a little research!

Be prepared with the truth ...
If I were Bernard Brown, I'd be prepared with a Glock if I ever met Dylan Avery.

Note that the Scholars for Truth have titles like "Professor of Folklore," and degrees in economics, philosophy and psychology. Not a structural engineer in the bunch. Granted, Judy Wood IS an engineer - her specialty is dentistry. Maybe she's the one who helped Bunny Cage Guy work out his scale model.

Liberty's comments are correct
Five Israeli officers, dressed as Palestinians, jumping for joy, while filming 9/11 as it ocurred is too much. Reports of explosions and a rapid succession of explosions inside the towers, below the area of impact, are also too much; as is the molten steel, the uppermost floors instantly turning to dust, WTC 7 implosion, the desire of PNAC for a big event, the timing of Operation Vigilant Guardian, the recent terrorism insurance and on and on.

It is outrageous that our government classified as secret the information that links Israel to 9/11. Of course, it is impossible for our government to investigate anything with respect to Israel (witness our 9/11 Commission which refused to look at our relationship with Israel as cause for the attack) and it is impossible to print truth critical of Israel in this country (as professors from Harvard and U. Chicago discovered this year).

Moonbats on parade...
Liberty, planetoftheapes, I have no problem with finding the truth. It is your byzantine logic that gets in the way. Try Occam's razor instead: "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity".

You are completely unhinged. With enough people like you running around, the Muslims might as well just walk in here and install their caliphate right here and now.

Crabtree's Bludgeon
The Truther's axiom: "No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated."

I'm sorry...
...I haven't really read the "wacko" conspiracy theories and am simply not up on their claims. It sounds like, from a couple of posts, that Bush and the neocons conspired to blow up the WTC and the Pentagon. Is that correct? Am I hearing that correctly? Evidenced by the "lies" that Bush has told? Just so I'm clear, how many "lies" does a person have to tell before horrific events are ascribed to him/her?

How many gunmen were in Dallas? Where exactly is the studio that broadcast the landing on the moon?

Do you honestly think that the same administration that "leaked" Valerie Plames identify could have held onto the secret of a conspiracy as large as 9/11? You can't have it both ways...

Moon bats
I thought my point was rather strait forward. We are asked to believe a story about 9/11 from an administration that lies about major issues constantly.
Why should I believe them when there is evidence to the contrary and they have lied so many time already.

Is that "completely unhinged"

Occam's razor: the Neocons are responsible for 9/11 answers everything from how it was done, why it was done, why the Bush adminitration inhibited the 9-11 commision, why NORAD lied to the 9/11 commission, why we attacked who we did, why Osama was never captured, who benefited finacially from 9/11 to why this "war" will never end.

It amazes truth seeks why people like you can't see reality. Wake up.


Great Post, MKH!
I hope you don't mind...I've used my "rogue" status at Ace's to throw some linkage your way. As far as I'm concerned, it's impossible to shine too much light on these "truther" cockroaches, and I appreciate your keeping the focus on them.

Never forget!

I don't
I don't bother arguing with the conspiracy whackos. Most Americans don't believe them. For some everything needs to be a conspiracy. A terrorist organization taking responsibility, bragging about it, sending out tapes, sending constant threats and even other countries criticizing and getting attacked by them isn't enough for some people.

I don't
Strange, 9/11 truth seekers speak in terms of facts, logical sequences and scientific conclusions. They follow the motive trail, power trail and money trail. The conspiracy nuts have no argument. They offer no debate.

Can you do me and the Constitution a small favor. Watch the video of WTC 7 falling on google video and repeat to yourself a few times. It was not hit by a plane. It was not hit by a plane... See if you start to break the mind control.

As George Bush says,"You can fool some of the people all of the time and those are the ones you need to focus on."

By the way the latest MSNBC poll showed about 60% believe he Gov. was involved.

This is just stupid
If you really believe that the government killed 3000 of our own, how can you live here? Why aren't you in hiding? If Bush and his pals can bump off all of those folks, why not you too? After all, you know the "truth," so you are threat now. You might bring the whole thing down, so why let you live? There are so many ways to make it look accidental, I’m surprised you haven't been taken out already.

Ever wonder how the technologically inept feudal lords made suits of armor? When steel gets hot, it’s malleable. Blacksmiths don't have to melt steel, just get hot. I've done it myself, it's kinda fun. Jet fuel burns hot, granted, not hot enough to melt steel, but definitely hot enough to make it bend, especially under several tons of concrete.

Concrete can be pulverized into dust when it falls from such a great height and mass. Think of it as a giant rock tumbler set on super high.

I grew up in a tough neighborhood and sometimes carried a box cutter for protection. So I know they can be used as weapons. Thankfully I never had to use it, but if I did, I knew I was going for the throat and face.

No of this matters though, because the evil one Bush has done his dastardly business. Haliburton has been rewarded with the incredible cost plus 2 contract. We are war with Israel’s enemies (despite pressuring Israel to stop fighting their enemies- Hezbollah) and the world is safe for neocon profit! What is really genius on the part of Bush was the way he tricked Clinton into pretending to ignore the AQ threat long enough to let Bush appear to be the tough one. Wait a second, that’s it! Monica was a Bush/Cheney/Rove plant! How genius of them to use a women that is only slightly pretty instead of a gorgeous type!

If you want truth - read the Bible
Abraham Lincoln was disinterred because of rumors that he was not dead. Many felt FDR was not really buried. We are all familiar with the JFK conspiracy theories. As a general rule, one might be inclined against conspiracy theories on the general principle that they imply competence. Bush cannot even legitimately tap overseas calls without being “outed” by liberal operatives in the government.

Wrong tanabear
Again, the steel didn't have to melt, just heat to the point that it became malleable and wouldn't hold. As far as the perimeter panels, they are on the perimeter, as long as the core beams are hot enough, down it goes.
Your hatred has blinded you, as evidence by your ad hominem attack on me and thank you for making the point of the column. Your brand of rabid denial of anything that doesn't fit into your preconceived hatred of all things to the right Al Gore qualifies you as a nut that should be dismissed. However, the repetition of your sad, misguided, disgraceful, and ultimately hurtful dirge of crap cannot go unanswered.

timf is right about the Bible,
Proverbs 26:
4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
or you will be like him yourself.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
or he will be wise in his own eyes.

Gets right to the heart of the matter with truthers.

Tanabear
All of your question are either working from the wrong context, already answered, or betray an incredibly naive understanding of the way things (and I mean everything) work. I will give you one example. I was an aviation ordnance tech in the USMC. In order to get an armed aircraft in the skies (during peace time, which that day started out as) a long process must be put into motion. Weapons must be taken out of the RSL (Ready Service Locker), built up, transported to the squadron and loaded onto the aircraft. No squadron in the continental US at the time would have active ordnance on hand due to safety procedures. A weapons load is not something that happens instantly. I'm done arguing with you though, due to that fact that your mind is made up, only Bush Derangement Syndrome for you. A pity that your hate for your own country runs so deep that it blinds you to anything you don't want to see. I will say a quick prayer for you.

Forest for the Trees
Again, you don't even need to get into arguments about how the towers fell, although it is obvious to me, a UCLA mechanical engineer, that they used thermite as Dr. Steven Jones has shown in his paper.

Just tell me how WTC 7 fell. Is that asking too much? 300 ft from the towers, other building were closer, WTC 7 suffered only minimal damage, it was NOT HIT BY A PLANE, minimal fires and it crumbled to dust, at free fall speed, in the same manner as the towers.

So, go ahead and explain to me this impossibility. While your at it, did you know it housed CIA, SEC and Gullianis command center? How convenient. Again Occam's razor analysis intact.

Occam's razor analysis basically make the NeoCons the only group that could have pulled 9/11 off in the manner it was pulled off.

I am scared. Once Bush and Co. get really cornered they my attack us again. This time bigger. They already have a plan to institue full martial law. Which is illegal according to the Constitution by the way. How many times have the NeoCons said another attack is eminent, eminent, eminent?


What's their real agenda?
I wonder what the "truthers" (liars) real agenda is. Has anyone followed the money? Who supports them? The thing that scares me about them is if the jihadists manage to detonate nuclear weapons in our cities, the "truthers" (liars) will say that was an inside job too, probably even if president Bush is long out of office.

I only hope the "truthers" (liars) do not get enough sane people to take their eye off of the real threat that we lose all of western civilization by default.

My last comment
A patriot is one who defends the Constituition which Bush has basically invalidated.
A patriot would want to know the truth so America with remain, in all her glory, for our childern. A patriot would not support illegal wars, murdering of innocents, half children.
A patriot would not support secret CIA prisons and torture.
A patriot would demand to hold the Government accountable if there was ANY chance they committed this act.
A patriot knows a democratic republic needs to be defended by her citizens.
We have so little freedom left, don't give anymore away because the NeoCons scare you. We will NEVER get them back.
A patriot would know this already.
Disclaimer: I voted for Bush for his first term.

Definitely fake!
Look guys, you're all missing the point- the WTC could not have fallen in the way the government claims because of one indisputable fact:

PLANES CAN'T REALLY FLY.

That's right, everyone who's ever thought they travelled by plane are the victim of a government conspiracy to make them THINK they were flying when they weren't (aside from those in on the conspiracy).

Those planes you've seen overhead? Holographic projections using alien technology captured from Area 51.

When you get on a plane, they drug you, use mind control techniques to make you dream you're on a plane, then use wormhole-based technology to send you there in an unconcious state. Just try to prove me wrong; the fact that there's no evidence to prove me right PROVES it's a government conspiracy to suppress the truth.

All the government aid given to the airlines after 9/11? Straight into Bushitlerhaliburtons pockets.

And 9/11? Alien death rays controlled by Elvis.

Must go... black helocopters coming... I can hear them now...

Truthers
They need to listen to the old song by the Temptations: Just My Imagination.

The sofa loungers
Nastimann made a good suggestion. Follow the money. However, he ought to turn that suggestion towards looking at who has made money since 9-11. Can you say military-industrial complex? You also might want to check out the Carlyle Group.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3995.htm

Nastimann has names for those Americans that know that the 9-11 Commission report is full of lies. What do you figure is a good name for those that refuse to investigate the facts, preferring to lounge on the sofa while their country is being attacked? The term "traitor", comes to mind.

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams

Naivete
Some of you are so naive.

Did you take the time to look at the declassified document I linked to above:

Operation Northwoods:
http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/news/20010430/

For those of you that do not think that any factions within our government would ever think of hurting an American to further another agenda.. think again. Read it and weep.

Want more...
Check out Operation Ajax

I can give you many more after you check these out.

Real Agenda?
You Loose Change Morons think you can convince me that a jackass like Avery knew when he was just 17 years old - 5 YEARS ago - that this was a governmental conspiracy? You are stupidly, and quite SADLY mistaken.

You think he figured this crap out at 17 years old, probably just after smoking a morning joint, while watching 3000 innocent lives get annihilated by ignorant baboons led by their dirty snot-ringed noses by a smelly, stinking, rotted old man wearing a tattered dress with a rotten food-laced beard and a cloth hiding the maggots is his filthy, oily hair, that thinks living in caves and crapping in holes and murdering innocent people is going to get him to the promised land, is a governmental lie? - you are SADLY mistaken.

Till my dying day I will refute asshats like you. Till my dying day I will pray that you meet Osama Bin Laden, or just ONE of his pathetic minions up close and personal. Get us the Truth - will ya please?

Till my dying day I pray that Osama Bin Laden and his p--sy whipped, drooling, knuckle- dragging boy toys will be taken on their magic carpet ride to Avery's front door with a special delivery. Alas - there won't be time for Loose Change then huh?

Move On Folks. The only Real Agenda by Truthers is being spun by the all-knowing, all-powerful - little man behind the curtain - just don't look at him.


Many facets
Decades of one sided information makes our populace most misinformed (which oddly meets with disbelief notwithstanding acceptance of principle that nothing can be published adverse to their view).

There are manifold reported contacts with Israelis that make many believe that Israelis knew the date and targets in advance, as they had inflitrated the cells, but did not want to stop the attacks so that our country would align with their desired actions. They had permission to follow these arabs in our country so long as they provided full info received to FBI. Reportedly, this was not done purposefully. Look up Five Dancing Arabs (Israelis high fiveing each other, dressed as Palestinians, while filming 9/11 as it ocurred with box cutters in their van); reported in Sunday Herald (scotland), confirmed in Wash. P., also whatreallyhappened.com; also look up the German Intelligence Report (which includes reports from Israeli embassy)as to advance knowledge; also Carl Cameron's doucmentary on Israeli connections that was lifted after one showing; plus many reports of Israeli agents during those preceding months. There are many facets to this, but Five Dancing Israelis plus reports of explosions like controlled demolition from those inside the towers, down low, way below damaged areas, should stir your interest. Twin towers were reportedly an environmental liability with prohibitive cost for remediation; and reportedly owner was in weekly or daily contact with Netenyahau (?).

Facet A--hat
The only facets that stir my interest are stupid jew-haters that believe the rantings of a 17 year old dipsh-t that grew his conspiracy theory faster than he grew his hydroponic plants.

3000 murdered victims, their families, friends and a nation do not think this a many-faceted story.

It was Islamic Murder in the name of Allah.

Ya all need to put it in your pipe and smoke it, cuz the crap your smoking has caused serious brain damage.

No More
No serious person should give this crap, or the idiots propigating it, another second of their time. Well, on second thought, if you come across one on the street, give em 3 seconds; enough time to beat them to a bloody pulp.

Not Responding
Agreed. I will take the advise of a poster on another blog - just point and laugh at them. Loudly and hysterically because nothing else can make you feel so good about something so bad.

Solutions to Security Challenges
Regardless of how many of you heap hatred and mockery on your fellows and regardless of who or what is responsible for 9/11, I implore you to revisit the forty-one recommendations presented to President Bush by 9/11 Commission.

Do you know how many of those forty-one recommendations have been implemented? According to Thomas Kean (Republican), Chairman of the 9/11 Commission, none. None!

Now, ask yourselves who is President and who controls the House and the Senate. It isn't Clinton and it isn't democrats and it isn't the New York Times and it isn't Cindy Sheehan and it isn't Osama bin Laden. It's George W. Bush and the Republicans. Are we safer now than we were in 2001? My fellow citizens, common sense--common sense!--tells us, "No."

Controlled Demolition expert
Controlled Demolition expert reacting to WTC7 collapse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqrn5x2_f6Q

Cowards can't face 9/11 truth
I know, it's just alittle to scary for you, spoon fed conspircy nut, couch potatos to examine the 9/11 evidence. What if all your blind, idiotic Bush support was a terrible, terrible mistake?

You simply don't have the courage to face what is happening to our country. That is exactly what the NeoCons counted on. An America filled with unpatriotic cowards like you.

To all of you coward, fools incapable of critical reasoning, those of us with intellect and courage will try to save you, even if it's against your will.

Most likely you people are so dense that you wouldn't even notice if all your Constitutional rights were stripped away. Again, the NeoCons counted on this as well. This country also belongs to the brave, educated, patriots who are willing to fight to save our freedoms and bring justice. Hey morons I think American Idol is on, or no?

I'm confused
Is Bush an idiot or evil genius? Maybe an evil idiot or a stupid genius? How did Bush et al talk the terrorists into cooperating? These are the same guys who kicked Russia out of Afghanistan, right?

Ecclesiastes 10
2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
- John Stuart Mill



"Truthers" and paranoid druggies ..
It is useless to argue with the "truthers," because they are immune to logic and reason or even "indisputable facts." For example, John O'Neill was moved from the federal government to chief of security at the World Trade Center so that he could personally oversee planting of the bombs (according to the truthers). But O'Neill DIED in the Twin Towers collapse. Ah, but of course he really did not die; this is yet another fabrication, and he is really on Fantasy Island with 85 virgins, living it up. He made sure his own son did not get into the towers that morning, you know, and the "body" claimed to be his was nothing but a ringer.

The reality is, however, that the "truthers" nonsense is quasi-official Democratic Party dogma (thanks to moveon.org and George Soros, who is the true architect of "trutherism." Soros is a Europhile whose chief aim in life seems to be to weaken the US economy and usher in the European Union as the single great super power of the 21st Century. Marshall McLuhan warned us of this generation decades ago with his "The medium is the message (massage)" -- and so the useless idiots went into "journalism" and confused the truth with lies so that not even they can really discern which is which.

Remember, many of these people actually believe that Bush, his dad, Clinton, Cheney, and God knows how many others all raped the same woman repeatedly (sort of a semen initiation into a secret society of murderers) and all drink human blood in order to become members of Skull & Bones. The level of delusion required to reach this conclusion is way beyond the ability of normal people to grasp -- and these delusionists are perhaps even crazier than the Jihadists, who actually have a frame of reference for their insanity.

Conspiracy Questions Not Answered
1) If Bush is so stupid, how did he plan this conspiracy and how did carry it out? (Yes, it's been asked before, but none of these guys ever answers it.)

2) More than 50,000 people worked in the WTC, at all hours of the day. How exactly did the conspirators get all these explosive charges in just the right places without anyone noticing anything out of the ordinary?

3) Why would Bush want to destroy the CIA's command center? Wouldn't he need a strong CIA to carry out his evil plan? Every dictator needs a strong secret service of some sort. And why would he strike at the CIA when his own father is a former CIA Director?

4) If Bush wants to be a dictator, why isn't he shutting down the NYT and CNN, among others? Shouldn't Fox News Channel be the official state news agency after six years of his administration?

Honestly, I can't even get mad at these idiots. You just feel pity for them.

One more thing ...
Can we have a "Flag as stupid" link in addition to the "Flag as Offensive" link? I'd love to be able vote on the stupidest post of the day, week, month, etc.

Hijackers
You conspiracy nuts don't even know that 7 of the 19 hijackers were later found to be alive. That the 19 names were conveniently found in a suit case from the west coast I believe. The FBI just found a suitcase. That major news outlets reported CIA training of a few names on that list. That the FBI never updated the names of the hijackers now known to be alive.

None of their names were on the planes passenger lists and there were no Muslim name on the passenger lists anyway. How stupid are you people? There is so much evidence of cover-up. If it wasn't for all you unpatriotic cowards we would have found the truth already.

Retarded, cowardly and unpatriotic describes the government conspiracy nuts. You are the morons that the NeoCOns dream about.

Before I sleep
You Government conspiracy nuts are too stupid to even realize that G.W. Bush did not planning anything. There is a group of NeoCons that planed this out years ago. They even release the PNAC plan for a New American Century.
You Government conspiracy nuts are so uninformed it is sickening.
Uneducated, uninformed, short sighted, small minded, unpatriotic cowards.

Good night

Look! Up in the sky!
What's THAT I see?? oh. Moonbats on parade, indeed.
Nastimann, what's their real agenda? Easy. Too much time spent alone in Mom & Dad's basement, with nothing to do.
Maa, I'm so booooard!!!

Here junior, play with my computer.


My Last Comment
Personally, I have my own conspiracy theory. I think Planetoftheapes is conspiring to alter the meaning of the phrase 'My last comment'.

Truthers Infected With Terrorists Ills
One of the most fearful sickness of the Middle East Society and Radical Islam is their adherence to fatalism and "conspiracy theories" which support their position.

More than ever western society needs a "trusted news source".

The agenda driven MSM foments these problems by nt providing trusted facts, by remaining silent when Truther mentality is exposed, by the agenda focused questions they ask, and slanted introductory remarks for almost all stories.

MKH is absolutely right, put them in their place.

Almost speechless
That's me, also 4 other family members...almost speechless in the face of these crazies. Planetoftheapes: I wish I could take time off from work to find the names and addresses of the hijackers who didn't highjack after all. But you're so much smarter than the rest of us, I bet you could list them.
The brilliant information & fact gathering of this BDS crowd really should be co-opted by Bush & the neo-cons. They're needed for the next gigantic conspiracy of faked desperation phone calls from victims, accidental videos of planes flying into buildings, the long-term setup of Islamists studying piloting commercial aircraft, etc. I guess I'm to assume that it was inevitable that a conspiracy so huge would inevitably be exposed.
I wonder if our schools have failed to teach skills for intelligent analysis.
Thank goodness for Enlightened's humor (spot on), Ellis Wyatt's sense, etc. But I sure am disappointed by Tanabear. I just hope none of these folks are my neighbors.

Babies. They're babies.
Teenagers who spend their lives playing video games have a completely distorted idea of the way war and destruction work. They believe that things are much more complex than they are, because their 'reality' exists on a DVD or in their hard drive, and in that world they stride through a complex and dangerous landscape with superpowers and a reset button.

Remember the scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" in which the Arab with the sword does his little dance of aggression, only to be shot between the eyes by Indiana Jones? That's the difference between these "Truthers" video game world and reality.

They can't believe in men with guns, because in their workd on that DVD it's much more complicated than that. This is why they go to their high schools and shoot people and then bawl that they didn't realize anybody would really die.

The only way to cure them is to draft them. But what army would want them?

"Truth" is no longer worth having
I no longer use the word "truth", because between "truthers", "truthiness", and the beliefs of those who ignore all facts, logic, and the laws of physics to arrive at their version, it no longer describes reality in any meaningful way. Therefore, I use the word "fact" instead. And I am reminded of an axiom;
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion. No one is entitled to his own set of facts."

Said by that notable "neocon", Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, (D-NY, before that term became equivalent to "Extremely Silly Person With Delusions Of Grandeur").

Having just watched the tapes again
I can only say this to those who think Bush is behind it all:

You are WORTHLESS BASTARDS.

God help us all if the likes of you end up running the US. You haven't got the intelligence to see that YOU are the enablers who will bring the country to ruin.

I've love to use stronger language. Could someone turn the filters off for about 24 hours?

Conspiracy Theories
I don't know if anyone who read the column by Ms. Ham has taken the time to read through all the various comments, which start just after midnight on 9/11 and run until about 1 hour before I type this comment, it took me at least 25-30 minutes, but if you do take the time, and have a somewhat open mind, you can't help but be struck by the vehement arguments for and against conspiracy theories. I would think that if someone who had no information at all about 9/11, who had been on a desert island during these past 5 years, and suddently were plopped down and for the first time, heard all the horror for the first time, they would be struck by how wild but common-sensical are the imaginations of those pro-conspiracy commentors and how equally insistent are the persons who debunk the conspiracies with just as much common sense. Clearly, the pro-conspiracists are in the majority, both in vehemence and conviction. Since neither side has any majority of proof on their sides, it strikes me that what do we have when all these arguments have been made except a lot of people's personal opinions. Maybe I'm a fool but I prefer to believe that a man as decent as George W. Bush, whatever his faults and mistakes since 9/11, there is no power on earth that could make me believe that he could be part of any conspiracy as dark as is painted by the most vociferous pro-conspiracists. As someone famous or infamous once said, can't we all just get along?

Insanity on parade…
Yet, I can connect the dots, despite degrees of separation, between Saddam Hussein, al-Qaeda and 9/11 and, to the “truthers,” I’m the crazy one.


No Real Responses
These government conspiracy nuts will never, never address the issues around 9/11. The sheep are protecting the wolf. The wolf is so much smarter than the sheep.

The above responses are proof that G.W. Bush knew what he was talking about when he said, "You can fool some of the people all of the time and you need to focus on them."

Look at the above post. G.W. Bush just said a week or two ago, at a new conference, when asked,What does Iraq have to do with 9/11." Bush responded, "Nothing."

You conspiracy nuts are completely ignorant. Why do you even post. Why don't you educate yourself then post.

People that won't examne the evidence around 9/11, with an open mind, given its importance, are traitors to America and cowards.

This is what happens...
...when generations of children are raised on the fevered ravings of the Blame America First crowd. This is what you get when the history of this country is written by those that refuse to see the good in this nation. This is what the domination of the left in academia has wrought, a bunch of people that will believe things with no evidence...and use the lack of evidence as proof that their imagined conspiracies exist!

Who is really crazy
The Government conspiracy nuts (GCNs) blindly follow a man that has violated the Constitution nearly 800 times that are known.

The truth movement members would be overjoyed if the Government did NOT commit 9/11. It is so hard to live each day when you know the horrible truth.

What can we do? All roads, all actions, all inactions, all motives, all benefits lead to the White House.

Who are the crazy ones?



This is what happens 2 . . .
Supposedly, those of us on the left refuse to see the good in this nation. However, neo-conservatives are the only ones allowed to define what "good" is. Do you really expect liberals to embrace this?

I agree that conspiracy theories are by-and-large over-the-top. But think about what's at the core of this thinking. This "war" keeps conservatives and Republican politicians in power, and this power will not be given up easily.

WOW the parade of the 2 inch people
Somebody commented that we need a stupid flag at the bottom of each post, well they are right. I might suggest another flag, and that is laugh out loud funny flag. I want to ask Planetoftheapes if my Ex-wife was really the devil. I love the rational used to take a fact and turn it up-side-down to come up with the hilarious points about the Bush Administration. Why don't you be truthful, and come out and say "I hate Bush and will go to any extreme to make him look bad?" Now that is the real truth! In the mean time, I've not laughed more over a column and its posts. It does not get any better then this, I can’t wait to read more, and why don't you throw in Santa and the Easter Bunny. I always had a murky feeling about them as well being some kind of government, and Neocon name used for agents to get inside our house's for a spy and search. Wow!

why bother with explosives?
My question for the Truthers is... why would Bush bother with the incredibly risky act of wiring the towers with explosives (or thermite or whatever)? I mean, once you've got the planes crashing into them (and that's pretty hard to deny), that's all the excuse Bush would need for launching all the Halliburton/Cheney/oil company/Rovian conspiracies one could want. There was no need to take any extra steps to guarantee that the towers would collapse.

So, given that, why would the government (or neocons or Karl Rove or whoever) go through the incredibly risky act of spending weeks planting explosives, with the chance of someone noticing or showing up on a security video or someone blabbing about it later?

From a risk-management point of view (that's what I do for a living, and it's certainly something Bush understands, with his Harvard MBA) it's zero payback for a huge upfront risk.

Makes no sense at all.

It might help..
everyone understand where these conspiracy believers are coming from, if you know that 'neo-con' is their code for Jew. It's part of the same old conspiracy belief taht Jews secretly run the world and cause all the wars. Its nonsense and the fact university professors believe it is nonsense on stilts.

Very Well Done
Miss Ham has done an excellent job in making her point by providing an opportunity for the lunatics to make her point for her.

Very well done indeed.

seriously
Please, folks, have a little compassion. Insanity is a sickness. They have no control over their bizarre theories. Even though I find myself laughing quite often at these folks and their "truth", lol, I really shouldn't; mental illness is no laughing matter.

I once tried to explain the folly of their ways to one troofer. He kept interupting, so I slapped him...hard, and said "The truth hurts, doesn't it"? Last I saw of him he was running back to his mommy's basement.

Where is the 17 foot hole?
The hole I saw in the Pentagon was larger than 17 feet. And what do you say about the hundreds of people that saw an airplane hit? Actually, the hole was 90 feet wide. Aside from that where did the identifiable parts that are outside the building come from? Did the gov'mint fly them in and plant them while no-one was looking?

As someone who has been in on multiple crash investigations, I can tell you what I saw on TV that day, a hole that a 757 made in the side of the Pentagon. I also saw the second plane hit the trade center.

As for the site in Pennsylvania, you know what it looks like? A site where an aircraft has hit.

In order for a conspiracy of this magnitude to have happened, there would have had to have beenhundreds, if not thousands of co-conspirators. And you expect us to believe that not one has come forward to tell the truth?

The entire "truther" theory is just so much male bovine fecal matter.

Kane

Truthers are Liars and Losers
Popular Mechanics has debunked Tanabear, James and planetoftheapes and all the other Moveon, Soros-birthed Truthers in a spectacular fashion -REPEATEDLY.

Of course, if they could read and comprehend, the Loose Changers might have been able to figure out that a 17 year old with no physics or scientific education - or any education apparently - has boondoggled them with his fantastical rantings about the hallucination he mistook for reality the day Islamic Thugs murdered 3000 Americans in cold blood in the name of Allah, on National TV.

For those of you who have the time, and might have missed it previously - here is the real science and physics (by REAL SCIENTISTS and PHYSICISTS)of what unfolded on 9/11.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=2&c=y

And for the idiots pushing the Loose Change Meme - here's one for you too.

Read it. Study it. Try and Comprehend What You Just Read. Now go find Avery and make him explain his obvious miscalculations.
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/


God have mercy on the victims souls that they are subjected to this kind of crap.

You're right, WTC 7 was NOT hit by plane
It WAS hit by a falling building.

Rather than be hit head on with a 230,000 lb. plane, it was hit by a collapsing 250,000+ TON building.

If you look at the corner closest to WTC 1 and 2, after their collapse, you'll see that a signifcant chunk of WTC 7 was taken out by the falling towers. It stood tilted to the south for hours before finally coming down.

You're right "planetoftheapes", WTC 7 wasn't hit by a plane, it was hit by a BUILDING.

--Jason

Facts speak
Reportedly the towers were purchased for 123 million and due to their destruction a few months later, 4.6 billion was collected on the terrorism insurance purchased in July.

Reportedly the Project for New American Century (the main neo con entity supported by Cheney Rumsfeld) authored "Rearming America’s Defenses (RAD) re the plan for American global domination [through galvanizing American emotional support for full-scale war against oil-rich Arab states]: "...the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event—like a new Pearl Harbor". The PNAC document also expressly recommends the US should seize Iraq even if Saddam Hussein were deposed through a military coup." [Quoted from Who is Rabbi Doc Zakheim?]

Facts should not be classified, a la Israeli survellance/infiltration of the applicable cells in USA, but disclosed and let facts point where they point. For example, I am aware of many troubling facts (a mild understatement), but I interpret none of them to implicate Bush in such a monstrous act (and I do not buy every theory). In my imagination, only an involved demoltion expert from a foreign country could possibly be jumping for joy at the sight of 9/11; and that is precisely what was reported (dressed as Palestinians, with box cutters in van, while filming the tragedy). It is time for all Americans to think and assemble their own evidence as our government is not capable of doing so in the direction the evidence points.

I would be laughing
If the tragedy weren't so near. I've seen plenty of whackos on this site, but Planetoftheapes takes the cake. It almost has to be a joke; he can't possibly believe this gibberish. He must just be crying out for attention--and his strategy worked!

He actually left out some parts. Since Clinton, Kerry and Kennedy lied about WMD too, they were also in on the conspiracy. It was actually a grand coalition, encompassing the Free Masons, the Illuminati and the Elders Of Zion. Further, human technology was not enough to pull it off...the aliens, whom only the Scientologists are standing up to, were part of it. But this time the Scientologists cooperated. Tom Cruise got out his MI1 suit and came down by rope from the hundredth floor to plant the bombs. Not only did Bush help plant bombs himself, but he was dressed in a Santa Clause suit while doing it. We have it on video...your are all fools to deny it! Of course, they had a few left over cases of thermite, so they used them on the levees in New Orleans. Wait...I'm losing the signal...oh, no, my tin foil helmet has fallen off...I'm doomed!

And poor little Tanabear...I've long felt a bit of sympathy for her lack of logic and rational thought, been slightly irritated by her childish anti-Semitism and mildly amused by her whacko theories of the Bush-Osamma connection. I had actually taken some of her posts somewhat seriously...until today, when I realized for the first time that she is clinically insane.

Question
James - "reportedly" does not signify "factually". I hope you can comprehend the difference.

Question - Explain one significant, salient fact, that has been asked repeatedly and never answered:

Had a controlled demolition been planned and executed - there was no need for the assualts by plane. Please explain why the "conspiracy" included both acts of destruction.

hollowpoint
lol!!! great about planes not flying and drugging the passengers. That explains the Mile High club because, really, the bathrooms are too small to enjoy a little whooopie in!

xfiles
You know, I loved the show. But even this conspiracy goes too far to be believed. really, what happened to all of you who think this is an inside job? Did you all sustain severe head trauma as children? spend time in the looney bin? go off your meds and decide you don't need them anymore? Geez! MG. Scary that you call yourselved Americans. You think our government did it? Then get out before they find and eliminate you all!

says a lot...
about the audience of MSNBC! Assuming this is an accurate statement...

"By the way the latest MSNBC poll showed about 60% believe he Gov. was involved."

Enlightened
Let facts point where they point, after discovery via a thorough non-political investigation.

As for speculation, I can most easily imagine the suspected demolition aspect being carried out by the foreign agents, who reportedly knew everything (aircraft as weapons, sites and dates) well in advance from survellance/infiltration of the arab cells, independent of (and piggy-backing on) the al quaeda plan to increase the horror, while Israel profits by galvanizing America's attention against Israel's perceived enemies. There is no evidence of any action to thwart these plans, and some suggest it had an interest in facilitating them.

Technical sites online point to the towers as huge environmental liabilities; one saying it would cost 15 billion to remove and even 2.4 billion for scaffelling alone. So actual events removed a huge demolition expense and the owner profited handsomely from his investment due to the collection on the recently purchased terrorism insurance.

I figured it out!
My life may be in danger for exposing this information, but you must know the truth! This whole conspiracy was created by Republicans!

It’s rather very simple when you think about it. How do you get average Americans to believe they must never, never vote for liberals? You create some “liberal” 9/11 conspiracy groups and then you have them say and publish some of the most bazaar, ignorant, irresponsible, reprehensible and completely dumb-#@$ comments you could ever imagine. Once Americans see these comments they will start thinking, "Man, these liberals have really lost their friggin mind, ...who are the Republican candidates again?"

It's so simple and obvious, I'm surprised everyone hasn't figured it out.

I'm done with Truther Idiots
Imagine what you will, that is what it is after all - your imagination, that or abject insanity.

The odds of a planned demolition enacted the same day as a planned airplane demolition by two separate entities is preposterous and pathetic.

For you and others to continue in that vein is a sad testament to the state of anti-government fanatics allowed to regurgitate crap at will under the guise of Free Speech.

Only this time there were 3000 innocent victims whose honor you defile at every mention of the word "conspiracy". You should be ashamed, and those that know and recognize the reality of 9/11 will continue to shame conspiracy theorists at every turn. I will not continue to give you a forum to post this swill.

One Question
Tanabear asked, 5) Why did we not have any air cover during the attacks? No answer.

Why would there be any air cover against civilian airliners flying within the United States?

Clyde9

Suspension of critcal thinking normative
This theory is no more intrinsically interesting or reasonable than, say, that the Apollo moon landings were a hoax. Both are absurd on the face of it. So why has the idea that Bush "did" 9/11 gained so much traction? Because, of course, people want to believe it.

Mass paranoid delusion on this scale doesn't just hatch out of nowhere overnight. The most recent antecedent that really laid the groundwork for the metastasis of this cultural cancer was Moore's "Fahrenheit 911," a mish-mash of lies, distortions, and half-truths that became a cultural blockbuster due chiefly to the fact that the mainstream media and other cultural elites (academics and so forth) either refrained from examining it critcally altogether, or chose to support it simply because it pleased them to do so. Why? It bolsters the narcissistic fanatasy-land hall of mirrors which they have substituted for reality, in which "truth" is simply whatever makes one feel superior to everyone else.

All of which is no more than the result of decades of lies, distortions, and half-truths gaining ascendancy and validation throughout all of our institutions. I went to college in the 70s and it was all about the glories of communism, etc. etc. Hatred of anything smacking of traditional Western civilized beliefs and values has been hammered home so hard for so many years in so many venues that this sort of demented bilge now seems perfectly sensible to a tremendous number of impressionable but otherwise reasonable individuals who simply would have known better in previous generations.

Be afraid. Be very afraid. The moonbats are now so close to being the mainstream that it can't be much longer until it happens.

And in the long term? In the long term the record of human experience on earth makes very plain what happens to cultures in this stage of decadence. That's why they call it Truth.

lunchat8
Bravo. Excellent and scary.

Here's a good read as well in the HY Post. Beware - Popular Mechanics is part of the conspiracy dontcha know? wink wink.



http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/conspiracy_cranks_opedcolumnists_james_b__meigs.htm

What is truely...
..sad, or worse yet down right frightening, is that if these people vote.

These 80 comments are amazing ...
It is not just and article suggesting the reader
actually view these nutty films, but some of the
comments supporting the conspiracy theories are
just shocking. I have heard all about BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome) before, but some of this
insanity has gone too far ...

What happens if the democRATS lose again this
fall ??

The whacko lefties will go completely off the
wall. I hear gasloine is now selling for $2.05
per gallon in Iowa... the stock market seems
to be rallying when it normally falls in
September.

Tanabear
You are not worth the effort to answer.

My Questions to Tanna
What kind of missile was it that hit the Pentagon?
Where was it launched from?
Why wasn't the hole larger? It would stand to reason that your missile packed with an explosive warhead would do considerable more damage, given the fact the are designed to blow up buildings. Explain how a missile could create such a small hole.


Who set your charges in Tower 7? And don't fall back on some broad sweeping answer like "they did it", who exactly did it and how exactly do you know?

As to your transponder going off in an airplane, the transponders are always transmitting this is what allows traffic controllers to differentiate one blip on the screen from another. Each transponder "sqwauks" a unique signal. NORAD never had, pre 9/11, standing orders to intercept any aircraft just because it went off course and the FAA certainly never had any reason to request it. This is just an outright fabrication.

I must admit you people put a lot of creative thinking into these theories, but they are as full of holes as Swiss Cheese.

9-11 families want a real investigation
Dear Enlightened... I think you are in dire need of some... enlightenment. Over 50% of the largest group of 9-11 families, including the head, Bill Doyle, whose son died that day, do not believe the government's story on 9-11.

So, if you want to honor them, do as they are asking... begging to have done. They want a REAL independent investigation of 9-11.

There are so very many unanswered questions.


-----------
Englightened said:
"Only this time there were 3000 innocent victims whose honor you defile at every mention of the word "conspiracy". You should be ashamed, and those that know and recognize the reality of 9/11 will continue to shame conspiracy theorists at every turn. I will not continue to give you a forum to post this swill."

Interview with Bill Doyle
Here's an interview for you with Bill Doyle, Coalition of 911 Families:

http://www.bestsharing.com/files/ms00193476/Doyle911.mp3.html

pointing at the wrong party
why did the clinton/gore admin. continuously allow al queada off the hook?why did clinton have PLO terrorist leader yasser arafat, over to the white house more than any other leader during his presidency?why did he choose to bomb christians in serbia,to the advantage of muslims(both sides were equally violent)?why did he totally ignore pursuing investigations into the khobar towers attack,despite the pleas of his FBI?which side was (and still is)insanely angry(over the election they lost) in 2001?what documents did sandy berger steal right before the 9/11 commission took place?must have been quite important stuff.and funny how the left allies itself with so many islamic groups in their little protests and rants...im seeing a lot of dots here to connect if you wanna play that game.

ding ding heLLo?
if the bushies went through all that=hundreds ,if not thousands,of engineers,architects,demo experts etc etc to wire both wtc towers oh yeah,plus wtc 7,not to mention some kamikaze pilots....just to invade iraq for oil/irael/halliburton/whatever....WHY wouldnt they have planted WMD there????so easy compared to the explosives+kamikaze military pilots+cruise missile+kidnappaed passengers scenario,and would have shut alot of people up.but they didnt.

Liberty
Liberty - Of course the 9/11 families want more answers, anyone whose family or friends died that day want more information, its called human nature.

However, what they don't need or deserve is to listen to the crap you and your ilk are pushing at them on a daily basis, which has been debunked ad naseum by numerous scientific studies.

I was "enlightened" the MINUTE a FRENCH jackass invented the "conspiracy", that then took root in a 17 year old asshat with no scientific or physics education, and has been furthered along by assholes that want nothing more than to crap on this country and our administration.

Have at it - you can sugar coat it all you want by using the 9/11 families as your emotional fodder to get this crap publicized. I'm not worried about the real truth - I saw it with my own eyes.

The difference between you and me is I don't need our government spending millions of dollars on an "idependent investigation" that will prove what the real world has known from the moment the first plane struck, just to mollify a small segment of our population that can't differentiate between hallucination and reality.



Ms. Ham
Good article. There was a great special on PBS this year that explained what happened to the twin towers and why they fell the way they did. In true PBS form they even debunked their previous theory that they had accepted when the special first aired in 2003. In short, the engineers explained that the tension from the sagging floor supports snapped the exoskeleton, which was integral to the core support. When it snapped the two independent load bearing systems were separated and useless, allowing the top 20 floors to mash the rest of the building into the ground. Sorry to see your political party is in such bad shape, you guys kinda fell into a centuries old trap. Good Luck!

Mainstream Weasel Media
In the days following September 11, 2001, I think we all, barring a tiny minority of perpetual curmudgeons, acknowledged and believed that it was Osama bin Laden and a group of radical Islamic gangbangers who acted alone in carrying out the attacks. In the 5 years that have intervened, however, much verifiable information has surfaced that is wholly incongruent with the "official version of events", while hundreds of challenging questions remain unaddressed and unanswered.

It is wholly American to be free and open-minded, to ask questions, seek answers and expand our awareness, even if authority is challenged. The U.S. mainstream media, in ignoring the litany of impossibilities, unlikelihoods, and bizarre coincidences that surround the US government's version of 9/11, have decided to render inquiry taboo or otherwise, consign it to the land of the "tinfoil hat". Insodoing, they have placed themselves somewhere between "weaseling out" and appeasing evil.

If we dare not ask hard questions of our government, then we might as well call it a day.

New Conspiracy is in the Planning Stage
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alarabiya.net%2FArticles%2F2006%2F09%2F11%2F27360.htm+&langpair=ar%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

Let's say the attached article is "verifiable".
I gather it will be the work of the US Government?
Afterall, this chatter went on for years before 9/11 - right?
Or wait - the Clinton Admin is in on too - since they must have faked all those events and documents leading up to 9/11?
Let's say the event occurs in September/October as planned.

Will my eyes decieve me again?
What I see is not what I get?
Will I need to wait 5 more years for new verifiable information?
Does our governement already know about this?
Is Mexico in on the conspiracy too? How much money did they get paid to let the terrorists sneak over our border unfettered?
Is our Government waiting with bated breath to slaughter 300,000 Americans so they can - invade Iran, and take their Oil too?
Is the nuclear dirty bomb being produced by the US government?
Is the US government going to hide a 2nd, sinister event when the bomb goes off, so they can blame it all on Islamic Facists, and thereby cover up their dirty little deeds?
Is this going to be Bush's parting shot to all of us rubes?
How about the Evil Rove/Cheney/Haliburton/PNAC cabal?
Are they betting on stock futures right now?
How rich will they be come November?
Should I build a bomb shelter in my backyard next weekend?
What if we all poo poo it and Whoosh - there goes Los Angeles, or San Francisco, or Dallas?

I hope you all like the sound of praise be to Allah.

"Enlightened" one
Geez, you really like to categorize, don't you. You seem to think you know exactly what I believe and want to group me in with people that I do not even know. I make my own decisions. Do you? Or do you prefer instead to go along with group think?

I am not doubting that planes hit the buildings. Clearly, they did. There are a lot of other issues though. For example, the funding for the supposed hijackers seems to have come from Saudi Arabia. But, the 9-11 Commission chose not to delve into that further. Don't you think that might be kind of important? We are involved in various military operations right now in which a lot of people are dying, including our very own servicemen. Shouldn't we be interested in going after the people that really were involved in attacking us? If the money to Atta came from Saudi Arabia, why didn't we invade THAT country, instead of Iraq. No, President Bush prefers to ride around with them in golf courts. And of course, let's not forget that they gave him money to start his first business. Nah... no conflict of interest there.

I read in mainstream news shortly after 9-11 that some of the supposed hijackers were trained in our military bases. It then was dropped. The 9-11 Commission didn't look into that either, or sure didn't publish it.

William Rodriguez, the last survivor from the Twin Towers, who was heralded by President Bush for being a hero in saving many people that day, said he heard bombs going off in the basement BEFORE the plane hit the building. Many firefighters have also reported hearing bombs and "secondary incendiary devices". Were they mistaken? Maybe. But, don't you think it's worth looking into.

I find it rather odd that several people that were called before the 9-11 Commission with the statements above and yet, there is no mention of them in the 9-11 Commission Report. Why is that, do you figure?

Nor, did they find it necessary, apparently, to look into what happened with WTC-7. Don't you think it's a little strange that before 9-11, only 1 very old steel building had ever fallen down due to fire, but yet on 9-11, THREE collapsed onto their own footprints? One of these, building 7, was not even hit by a plane. Buildings 1 and 2 were built extraordinarily well. You should look at the design of the steel supports. It was amazing. They were built to withstand being hit by planes.

We need to get to the bottom of this. The very survival of our country might depend on it. What are you so scared of?


Hello GCNs
Interseting points for the GCNs cowards.

1. Marvin Bush was head of security at the WTC complex. How convenient.

2. There were documented "strange" areas of both towers that were closed and powered down in the week leading to 9/11.

3. Physicist Dr. Steven Jones estimate only 2000 lbs of thermite would need to be placed. Easy to do with a small crew.

3. Since the FBI agrees there is no evidence linking Osama or Al Queda to 9/11 and 7 of the 19 hijackers have turned up alive, we have no idea who really hijacked those planes. No one is even asking the Question because the gutless, coward, sheep Government Conspiracy nuts (GCNs) believe any propaganda presented to their dull minds. The towers came down so we could not see what or who was in those planes!

4. Moron GCNs are too corrupt to believe that some people can stand-up for truth, patriotism, and the Constitution. This is not a George Bush issue. This is a save America issue. I was a life-long Republican before looking at the evidence. It took me a good month before I was able to believe the horror of the truth.

5. Once and for all moron GCNs, you can not pancake a building at free-fall speed. Each floor would exert resistance and slow down the fall. It is aginst all know laws of physics (except for the brain dead laws fantasized about by GCNs)

6. Moron GCNs did you know that you are an American first, before a coward in Bush's herd of sheep.


Calm the Emotions
I've read every comment on this article, and so far, just about everyone is coming off as crazy save for a few that are scattered among both sides. Instead of using angry language to get your point across, why not peacefully give your opinion, your facts, etc. Instead most of you are simply putting your emotions on paper and calling each other crazy. Everyone here should have an open mind to new ideas, otherwise your wasting your time reading anything. Do a little research on your claims before saying anything. I know it's easy to say anything you want, and by the 1st amendment you can do it. However, saying whatever you want can be EXTREMELY harmful to your credibility.

Everyone here knows 9-11 was a horrible event, regardless of what you believe. People are still in mourning 5 years after losing loved ones. I sympathize with anyone who feels they have lost someone. I never was able to see the towers in person. I'm told by a native New Yorker, "they were really big." The victims, living and dead, should be the heart of every conversation surrounding 9-11. They are the ones that matter, not debunkers, not conspiracy theorists. There are families who consider the "Truth Movement" to be AN ABOMINATION. There are families who believe the "Truth Movement" is THE ONLY WAY TO HONER THE FALLEN.

Through my maturing into an adult, I have made it my resolve to keep an open mind to every opinion. I will listen to anyone's arguments, then I'll put forth my own. I will seek out facts, and find flaws in both mine and others. In loose change, I found many startling ideas. My first thought was to search out the counter argument. Behold, I found Loose Change: Viewers Guide. I read through that with an open mind as well. One thing bothered me about it however. The author seemed to be more interested in giving his own angry opinions about Dylan Avery and the other creators, rather than give cold hard facts. That tilted me more towards the Truth Movement, however I still made sure to have an open mind.

DO NOT LABEL ME A CONSPIRACY THEORIST.

I have an open mind to ideas and facts people will present to me. If you have undeniable proof that the earth is flat, I'll believe you. Seriously, I'll give you 500$ (my bank account) if you can prove to me, undeniably, that the earth is flat.

In my search for information, I have found many questions for both Loose Change and the Official Story.

Examples:
Official Story Believers,
The buildings came down at the speed of gravity, consistent with a controlled demolition. Even if there was 1/2 second delay at each floor that collapsed, it would have taken 45 seconds. Explain to me why a steel structure, build to withstand airplane crashes, was able to fall as if it was made of cards.

Silverstein said "we decided to pull WTC 7" himself on PBS "America Rebuilds". "Pull" is another name for bringing down a building in a controlled demolition. It takes about 2 weeks to plan a controlled demolition and set the bombs. That means they were planning to bring down WTC 7 AT LEAST 2 weeks before the first plane hit. Can someone explain to me how this fits into the Official Story?

Truth Movement Followers,
The hole in Pentagon was 16' in diameter before it collapsed. That, I believe, is large enough for the center of a 757 to fit through if the wings were ripped off.

That questions, however, leads to the question: Where did the wings go? Were they pulverized into the small pieces of metal we see people carrying in pictures?

The list goes on and on of questions and counter questions. People claim to have the truth, and I agree with MKH, BEWARE OF THEM. No one who questions the governments answer can claim to have the truth.

THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CRAZY PEOPLE AND PEOPLE WHO ASK QUESTIONS.

Crazy people will tell you they have the truth. Smart people will ask questions and find the truth for themselves. Sheep don't ask questions...

It is your patriotic DUTY to question the government. The founding fathers said so.

Here's a nugget to chew on:
The patriot act has two clauses, "The president can do anything necessary", and "The president has the power to add and delete." "Add and delete" means the president can add to or delete from any bill or law that comes to him from congress. "Anything necessary" means the president can do ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING. This completely negates the checks and balances our government was founded on. If you're a real patriot, if you really love america, you'll ask congress why they just made George W. Bush the dictator of the U.S.

The Truth Movement doesn't claim to have the truth, people can only speculate. The Truth Movement wants an independent investigation so the answers to their questions can be answered.

So far, I haven't heard one good reason why there shouldn't be an independent investigation of 9-11. It's not like it's going to hinder any of your lives.

For everyone here who is just calling anyone that doesn't agree with them a conspiracy theorist, or paranoid. Here's another nugget, just for you:
The Watergate Scandal started out as an INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION of some burglars in the Democratic National Convention. When Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein uncovered information connecting those burglars to the government, it became a CONSPIRACY THEORY. By following that conspiracy theory they were able to get to prove what is now in our history books.

The Truth Movement simply wants an independent investigation of 9-11. If that investigation ends and a legitimate answer is found, then I'm sure 99.9% of the Truth Movement will end. If it does uncover something, however, everyone who has ridiculed the Truth Movement will be kicking themselves.

Now, I dare anyone to read all that I've said, and tell me I'm wrong.

Just so you know...
I was 13 when those planes hit the towers. Does that mean I my opinion doesn't matter? Looking at footage from five years ago and a little critical thinking allows me to question the official story.

Being 17 doesnt mean anything. Neither does being 50. I don't know how old any of you guys are, but saying Dylan isn't worth listening to just because he's young is one of the most retarded comments I've ever heard. There are teenagers that have IQs higher than anything you or I could ever imagine. Age has nothing to do with how smart you are, or how correct you are. How old was Hitler? Older than Dylan for sure. You'd rather listen to Hitler than Dylan? Just because he's older?

I've met Dylan Avery, Jason Bermas, Korey Rowe and Alex Jones in person. They're nice guys, and if you don't believe what they have to say, it's not hurting their feelings.

Val's Voice of Reason
I agree with you 100%. In the past, I wrote posts like yours but after engaging over and over with these brain washed, brain dead, guless, coward government conspracy nuts you lose hope that they will do anything to protect our democracy.

I now believe that they are the type of people that want a totalitarian state so they can be told what to think and do at all times. They are that far gone.

They spew hate and never, ever address an issue with critical reasoning.

They represent one third of the country but nearly all of the Bush boot-licking, non-thinking, coward, never question anything GCNs.

It's easy just to Google this stuff and verify it but they won't do it.

lol
Its funny to see the real rift in contemporary american society these days. From both sides of these factions who claim affinity to the "truth".

At the same time, neither side will provide context, nor intelligeble debate, nor any form of public discourse worthy of a hearing.

All we see is some baseless flamewar. From both you "NeoCons" or "Truthers". whatever the heck you both call each other.

whats sad, I see this in my academic life as well.


my reference? All the flame posts above contributing null value.

Until you all can sit down on a table and DISCUSS with civility and rationality, thats when youll produce something meaningful.



Slade
Let me simplify this for you (By the way, I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCLA and a doctorate from UC San Diego):

The Truthers feel further investigation is warranted based on the available evidence.

The Bush supporters and NeoCons (not really the same group) do not.

The difference between the two groups is the Bush sheep can not think for themselves.

Can your LOL, academic mind grasp that null value?

LOL

>>The Truthers feel further investigation is warranted based on the available evidence.

http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/

^ much of the above can answer whatever house of cards those people have built.


>>The Bush supporters and NeoCons (not really the same group) do not.

>>The difference between the two groups is the Bush sheep can not think for themselves.


preaching to the choir. Why say the obvious?

than again, WHO are we pointing discourse regarding the issue of 9/11? The NeoCons? (whatever the heck they are.)

Ever address any REAL Issues?

1. Americas Role in the world, should we or shouldn't support Israel : Discuss.

2. Our blunder in Iraq. : Discuss.

3. Impeachment for Bush on the grounds of incompetence in handling the 9/11 tragedy. : DISCUSS.

4. And lastly issues AMERICA HAS IGNORED : Social Security, National HealthCare, Education Reform, ....all clouded by you Neocon fearmongering of "islamofascism", and this "truther" movement. DISCUSS.

enough with the flamebaiting. Its not entertaining anymore. again referencing all these flamewar posts.

This country needs SERIOUS discourse. You all seem to have taken that for granted. You all for the usual adhominems and absurdity, none of this contributes any rational discussion. and when I say "you all" I point my general finger to you Neocon extremists AND Truthers alike.


>>Let me simplify this for you (By the way, I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCLA and a doctorate from UC San Diego):


what's your degree or choice of university have anything to do with this? (Perhaps you want a cookie for it? ^_^;; ) Maybe I should mention being a former US Marine artilleryman in response? Although that hardly has got anything to do with whatever I need to say. (I hope that was simple enough, Mr PhD Candidate.)

typos :

>> (By the way, I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCLA and a doctorate from UC San Diego

pardon me : you already HAVE a PhD. at least you claim one. sorry for that ^_^;

Val writes
I've met Dylan Avery, Jason Bermas, Korey Rowe and Alex Jones in person. They're nice guys, and if you don't believe what they have to say, it's not hurting their feelings.


Dylan Avery says that Bernard Brown put his young son on a doomed airplane, then took the day off from work at the Pentagon so he wouldn't be around for the carnage. Sad to think that's how "nice guys" talk in your world.
Jason Bermas called Jim Meigs a liar several times to his face in the 3-minute clip of the Democracy Now debate I could stand to watch. Seemed a bit like he was "giving his own angry opinions rather than cold hard facts." If these little boys are your heroes, I feel truly, truly sorry for you.

Leaders and such...
Dylan Avery, Jason Bermas, and Korey Rowe will tell you themselves not to follow them. They don't want to be, nor do they claim to be the leaders of the Truth Movement. I do not look to them as my "heros." They have simply created a film which is quite interesting. Being young does have some problems, they don't have debate experience. That, however, means nothing to their argument. Bush followers are following an inarticulate man who also seems to be a compulsive liar. They'll tell you that it's his policy that matters, not the way he speaks.

Slade, I thank you very much for that link. I am very interested in information regarding 9/11. That link appears to be the least bias counter-argument to the questions the Truth Movement has asked. As I said before, I consider myself netural and open-minded. After listening to several people speak as well as watching Loose Change, the official story simply seems clouded.

Here's a couple more questions to add to your list Slade. Why has no one been held accountable for the events of 9/11? If it indeed was just an extream case of gross incompetance in our government, why has no one been fired, demoted etc?

Slade
Sir, I have an M.D. not a PhD. Clearly, you are considering important issues. I think you already know the answers to the discussion points you post, but what you miss is all those issues tie into 9/11. Start with the who planned and who had motive for 9/11 and work your way out.

Occam's razor: the Neocons are responsible for 9/11 ANSWERS EVERYTHING from how it was done, why it was done, the effect of Israel's influence, has why the Bush adminitration inhibited the 9-11 commision, why NORAD lied to the 9/11 commission, why we attacked who we did, why Osama was never captured, why WTC 7 fell, who benefited finacially from 9/11 to why this "war" will never end.

I am quite sure that if you studied the 9/11 evidence you would become angry and outraged. If you haven't researched it, taken it to heart, experienced the horror then you are still amoung the Traitors to this nation, that Val so informedly pointed out, have supported the elevation the G.W. Bush to near Dictator status. She is 13 and is far more informed than an "academic" like you.

We have a large group of people in this country that due to issues like abortion and gay marriage, which I don't actively support, are willing to throw out the Constitution, give up the bill of rights, attack other nations on the bases of lies and propaganda, kill thousandand thousands of completely innocent children, allow the distinct possibility that the government killed 3000 of its own to go uninvestigated.

That is why I no longer tolerate them. To these people I say, you are coward sheep who absolutely have destroyed this county with you stupidity.

>_>
I said I was 13 when the planes hit the towers... I'm 18 now. Sorry for the confusion. I also am a guy, but my gender really doesnt matter. Planetoftheapes, I salute your passion for this subject, but anger will only continue the flame war.

BeeBee
"3-minute clip of the Democracy Now debate"

Why don't you watch the entire debate.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2006/120906debate.htm

The hard thing about being a 9/11 truther is after you study both sides for months, and become 98% sure the government killed our citizens, it becomes very hard to tolerate the utter lies coming from the mainstream media.

Val's reason
I agree with you again. Most 9/11 truthers are quiet, intellectual types. Some of us need to be out-spoken to provide a little balance. I don't think these Bush traitors, in general, live in a world where they would even examine the evidence, but really, I agree with you again.

http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/

>>Sir, I have an M.D. not a PhD. Clearly, you are considering important issues. I think you already know the answers to the discussion points you post, but what you miss is all those issues tie into 9/11. Start with the who planned and who had motive for 9/11 and work your way out.


Whatever floats yer boat man. ^_^


>> Occam's razor: the Neocons are responsible for 9/11 ANSWERS EVERYTHING from how it was done, why it was done, the effect of Israel's influence, has why the Bush adminitration inhibited the 9-11 commision, why NORAD lied to the 9/11 commission, why we attacked who we did, why Osama was never captured, why WTC 7 fell, who benefited finacially from 9/11 to why this "war" will never end.



Yawn.
http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/


>>I am quite sure that if you studied the 9/11 evidence you would become angry and outraged. If you haven't researched it, taken it to heart, experienced the horror then you are still amoung the Traitors to this nation, that Val so informedly pointed out, have supported the elevation the G.W. Bush to near Dictator status. She is 13 and is far more informed than an "academic" like you.



http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/
^ you have yet to read this haven't you?

I'm angry and yes outraged at the "truther" movement and Neoconservatives alike. BOTH Sides play the same dystopian ethic and BOTH sides play on the emotions of the American people. Quite frankly, BOTH sides seem so far detached from what is really happening in America.


>> We have a large group of people in this country that due to issues like abortion and gay marriage, which I don't actively support, are willing to throw out the Constitution, give up the bill of rights, attack other nations on the bases of lies and propaganda, kill thousandand thousands of completely innocent children, allow the distinct possibility that the government killed 3000 of its own to go uninvestigated.


Good good, Focus on restoring our constituition than! FOCUS ON THE PATRIOT ACT. Why go for this "truth" movement when our political inertia needs to be directed elsewhere?




>>That is why I no longer tolerate them. To these people I say, you are coward sheep who absolutely have destroyed this county with you stupidity.


Very well said. I kinda "feel your pain" but don't follow your logic at all.

Sheepish I observe, seems to apply to Truthers and NeoCons alike.



Heres for you Truthers :

1. STOP proliferating the nonsense. If you wanna kill real issues that are harming our country, than GO FOR THEM. You have stranded yourselves in futility on this 9/11 conspiracy.

2. Get your "facts" straight. Your making the Real Truth Movement go down the drain with your cut-and-paste documentation and data-mining.

3. Stop making reality fit YOUR world view.


Heres for you NeoCons :

1. STOP proliferating the nonsense. If you wanna kill real issues that are harming our country, than GO FOR THEM. You have stranded yourselves in futility on this Islamofacist conspiracy.

2. Get your "facts" straight. Your making the Real Conservative Movement go down the drain with your duckspeak, doublespeak, and doublethink.

3. Stop making reality fit YOUR world view.



http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/
to Val :


>>Here's a couple more questions to add to your list Slade.

>>1. Why has no one been held accountable for the events of 9/11?

I dunno. Maybe we need to ask ourselves what REAL issues need resolution. Why haven't we impeached this incompetent President? Why is Donald Rumsfeld still SecOfDef? Until we can answer those questions, than we can answer for accountability. Maybe, because NO ONE is asking those questions.


>>If it indeed was just an extream case of gross incompetance in our government, why has no one been fired, demoted etc?

Simple : American proletariat could care less at all. Sad but true. To them 9/11 was just another day in history far long detached. Heck : They REELECTED Bush. 100 million Amercians didn't vote, and they're surprised hes up there?

We shouldn't be surprised why they haven't been fired. Why stop at firing? why not general execution, for dereliction of duty?

American Apathy on a wide scale has caused all of this, just my opinion. when 40% of voting the populace doesnt exercise its duty to vote, than we face the consequences.

oh yeah : http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr
http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/


http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/


http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/


http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/


http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/


http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/


http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/


http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/


http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/



Truthers need to shut up about the film already, start getting your facts straight. Lose the black-clad mottif and stop dragging down the REAL movement for truth and the restoration of this country.

Slade, I applaude you
I am all for focusing on the problems with our government. I want us out of Iraq, I want the Patriot Act (AKA Un-Patriot Act) to be ammended to nothingness, I want murdering of innocent people to end. All off that is important.

One thing people seems to always mix up (understandably), is believing Truth Movement followers are all conspiracy theorists.

The Truth Movement IS NOT ABOUT making conspiracy theories. People can only speculate on what happened.

The Truth Movement IS ABOUT finding answers to questions. The Truth Movement simply wants an independant investigation to find out what happened. The 9/11 comission was made up of people who benifited from the events, as if their opinions were completely unbias. An independant investigation will not harm any of you, so I see no reason why most people here oppose it.

Slade's Conspiracy
I have spent a few thousand hours studying post like yours. Generate as many crazy government conspiracy theories as you want it does not change the fact the there are many questions that need to be investigated.

1. It is not the goal of the 9-11 truth movement to figure out exactly what happened on 9-11, only that there are significant questions that need investigation.

2. What happened to the Pentagon can be easily discovered if the government would release the surveillance video and the video they confiscated. Then, end of story. Why won't they release the evidence to clear the themselves?

3. Pentagon: Fact is, it simply did not look like a jumbo jet crashed there. There is testimony that the plane that crashed there looked like a small private or military jet. The radar evidence for maneuvers performed are inconsistent with a large commercial jet. Why won't they release the evidence?

4. There are clear pictures of the crash site of flight 93. There is very little at the site. The evidence we have, pictures, does not appear to show a plane crash. If the government would hand over the voice recorded and let us examine the weckage then controvery would be over. Why won't they let the public have the information that would clear them?

5. All the government had to do was let people examine the WTC sites. Why did they close it off, even to investigators, and quickly ship the scrap off to China? All they had to do was allow free access and the story is over!
WTC-no MODERN steel skyscraper has fallen due to fire. Besides the fact that we have no idea why there were active fires in WTC 7, that that spinkler did not put them out, the damage was asymmetric and according to the laws of physics the fall would be asymmetric. Your can make-up agument why it would fall symmetrically but is is unlikely. It is also impossible to collapse at free-fall speed if it is stuctural. Even official report could not give a reason why WTC 7 fell only "low probability" speculation. To me, a mechanical engineer, it is impossible that explosives were not in that building.

6. Why the trade towers fell. To me the most important point is there was molten steel in the basements a week after the fall. We have testimony, and photos. Explain to me how that is consistent with any explanation given by non-truth people. It was sulfur from the dry wall oh, ok good luck with that. Molten steel can you believe that!

7. This list could be 100 points long.

I wish I had more time. Got to go. But I do respect your efforts slade. I will spend more time reviewing your post.


Another Article Debunking Loose Change
Here's another article debunking the loose change crowd: http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/911truth.html

Warning: the PWOT website isn't for everyone. It's articles mix very crude humor with logic to present it's information in an entertaining way.

Unbelievable
People will always believe whatever they want to believe. I'll quote Capt Janaway from Star Trek: Voyager: "You can use logic to justify almost anything. That's its power, and its flaw." The same thing applies to knowlege. Did you know there's a difference between knowledge and wisdom?
The bottom line is: How in the world could Bush have done it and gotten away with it? He couldn't have done it alone, but would have needed the conserted, cooperative effort of many, many, many people, all conspiring with him to kill 3,000 people! I thought most of you liberals thought Bush was an idiot, not an evil mastermind.
Where were the liberal watchdogs who are usually so good at uncovering all of Bush's supposed evil plots before they occur? These conspiracy nuts are right up there with those who believe the holocaust never happened, that the moon landing was staged, that aliens landed in Roswell, and that OJ is innocent. No matter what we say, or what they say, everybody's minds seem to be made up already.

Yawn and more LOLOLOLOL

you can either read this now, or skip below

all I heard was "BLAH BLAH BLAH I'M A MOOOONBAT"

Anyway : to mr planetofthemoonbats (Yeah Im about to participate in this flamewar... XD)


http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/

thats all Imma say to you. Read. than STFU.


to Val :


>>I am all for focusing on the problems with our government. I want us out of Iraq, I want the Patriot Act (AKA Un-Patriot Act) to be ammended to nothingness, I want murdering of innocent people to end. All off that is important.

One thing people seems to always mix up (understandably), is believing Truth Movement followers are all conspiracy theorists.

The Truth Movement IS NOT ABOUT making conspiracy theories. People can only speculate on what happened.



agreed. It's very damaging for BOTH sides of the American discourse when we have misinformed, poorly documented and slickly made films like Loose Change. The rhetoric used in the film is EXACTLY on the same parallel that was used to selling the Iraqi War to the American People : Misinformation, Cherry-Picked Quotes
>>Slade's Conspiracy
I have spent a few thousand hours studying post like yours. Generate as many crazy government conspiracy theories as you want it does not change the fact the there are many questions that need to be investigated.

1. It is not the goal of the 9-11 truth movement to figure out exactly what happened on 9-11, only that there are significant questions that need investigation.

2. What happened to the Pentagon can be easily discovered if the government would release the surveillance video and the video they confiscated. Then, end of story. Why won't they release the evidence to clear the themselves?

3. Pentagon: Fact is, it simply did not look like a jumbo jet crashed there. There is testimony that the plane that crashed there looked like a small private or military jet. The radar evidence for maneuvers performed are inconsistent with a large commercial jet. Why won't they release the evidence?

4. There are clear pictures of the crash site of flight 93. There is very little at the site. The evidence we have, pictures, does not appear to show a plane crash. If the government would hand over the voice recorded and let us examine the weckage then controvery would be over. Why won't they let the public have the information that would clear them?

5. All the government had to do was let people examine the WTC sites. Why did they close it off, even to investigators, and quickly ship the scrap off to China? All they had to do was allow free access and the story is over!
WTC-no MODERN steel skyscraper has fallen due to fire. Besides the fact that we have no idea why there were active fires in WTC 7, that that spinkler did not put them out, the damage was asymmetric and according to the laws of physics the fall would be asymmetric. Your can make-up agument why it would fall symmetrically but is is unlikely. It is also impossible to collapse at free-fall speed if it is stuctural. Even official report could not give a reason why WTC 7 fell only "low probability" speculation. To me, a mechanical engineer, it is impossible that explosives were not in that building.

6. Why the trade towers fell. To me the most important point is there was molten steel in the basements a week after the fall. We have testimony, and photos. Explain to me how that is consistent with any explanation given by non-truth people. It was sulfur from the dry wall oh, ok good luck with that. Molten steel can you believe that!

7. This list could be 100 points long.

I wish I had more time. Got to go. But I do respect your efforts slade. I will spend more time reviewing your post.

Once Again...
... People always seem to want to lump up everyone who doesnt think the way they do into a nice neat pile labeled: Conspiracy Theorists. Just because I believe there's more Official Story automaticly makes me the same as people who believe "the holocaust never happened, that the moon landing was staged, that aliens landed in Roswell, and that OJ is innocent."

My personal stance on those events:
The holocaust did happen
We did land on the moon
Roswell was a high-tech aircraft, the government doesnt want everyone to know what kind of weapons they have, so they let people speculate/believe it was aliens.
OJ is a murderer, but the police screwed up so much, nothing could stick.

None of the Truth Movement Followers ever said Bush came up with the idea. He's not that smart. The plans for this kind of thing was actually made long ago, 1962. Look up Operation Northwoods.

The heart of the Truth Movement is simple:
Ask Questions, Demand Answers

It's your patriotic duty to do so.

No where does the Truth Movement say: "Come up conspiracy theories"

The Truth Movement is beyond Loose Change, Terrorstorm, Conspiracy Theories, or just about anything else angry NeoCons can yell about. The Truth Movement is about thinking for yourself.

Gary
I thought most of you liberals thought Bush was an idiot, not an evil mastermind."

Upon verifying of information, it turns out that most of the mainstream, leftwing liberals DO NOT SUPPORT any conspiracy theory about 9/11.

The Truth Movement is a very small percentage of people, that will blame (ie: question) the incident on our government, or someone else's government, on anyone if they can twist a fact to fit their fantasy. The paranoid denial of facts has been around for hundreds of years, it's not something new. When this conspiracy runs out of fake but accurate facts, it's on to the next conspiracy.

Oh - and the polls saying that more and more of the public are jumping on the bandwagon? Seems those polls may have been slanted to present a certain result. Go.Figure.






Thermite/thermate
Thermite (powdered aluminum and iron oxide)produces thermate when a binder is present. Both of which are present in the aluminum and iron the buildings were contructed of. Sulphur was the binder which was present in the gypsum wallboard the interior of the building was constructed with.

The by product thermate will be found in any building made of the above mentioned products when they are subjected to extreme heat - which was evidenced by the intense fires produced by flaming jet fuel and office products.

It is not an anomaly unique to the WTC.

Besides residue that would normally occur under the circumstances as explained above - there is no evidence that THOUSANDS of pounds (the required amount needed) of thermate was placed surrepticiously on NUMEROUS columns in both WTC, ignited remotely, allowed to burn to 700 degrees to start the massive weakening required to bring down the towers, no metal remains were observed to have evidence of themite burn.

Let's stick to the facts, and not a Professor that is dishonorable in the very least by not presenting verifiable information.


http://www.debunking911.com/ironburns.htm
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm



Fact Checking
It's obvious that Truthers have "questions" but do nothing to seek answers. Pose the question, and then rely on someone else to do the fact checking. Produce the bogus evidence, and rely on someone else to do the fact checking.

Mythological questions of epic proportions and outright bald- faced lies have been rebutted, debunked, or proven factually wrong by thousands of worldwide scientists, scholars, experts, and engineers - repeatedly - and yet not one Truther here will acknowledge any of the links proving that.

The obvious conclusion is - you want only answers that support your distrust and hatred of our government, other governments and/or entities - not actual scientific facts of the how, why or what occurred.

You will never find the truth because you are not seeking the truth. You have hijacked "truth" as your mission statement, when in fact all you really want is a reason to feed your fantastical head.

It's apalling really, since you are using 3000 corpses as your food for thought.

Movie: 9/11 Press for Truth
The following movie (9/11 Press for Truth) featuring four new Jersey
widows and distinguished authors is very informative. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1016720641536424083&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=en

Note it shows Cheney and Bush initially resisting any 9/11 investigation; and showing shocking lack of cooperation; and weakness of 911 Commission. It demonstrates multiple warnings (but does not go into German Intelligence or Israeli links or many of the biggest questions). Still excellent and recommended.

Debunking Nothing
My God the stuff you government conspiracy nut, traitors post is unbelievable. But, I will give you credit for solving the energy crisis. All we need is steel and wallboard, or according to one post above, just a pile of steel, to produce temperatures around 2000 degress.

Energy crisis solved thanks to Slade. Mix steel and wallboard and you get all the energy you need. Great work. Steel mills must be careful though, because if you pile steel it will oxidize (rust)in air and melt. Do you see that in academia? Piles of steel that spontaneously melt?

I will keep studying your links because I truly want to find the truth but you conspiracy nuts are unhinged if you believe your own "explanations."

All we want is for the videos, transcripts, reports, cockpit recorders, physical evidence to be released and the gag orders on firemen and FBI agents to be lifted. Is that too much for you taitors, sheep, Bush-boot-licking crowd?

The co-chairmen for the 9/11 commission wrote a book, Without Precedent, about how the investigation was obstructed and they were misled (lied to). The chairmen should have talked to Slade. He absolutely knows the truth.

Why are you so scared of the government being forced to release information?

I think you nuts will believe anything to keep from admitting you are traitor sheep.



What is the Truth?
Their are some real bad people in this world. Some are leaders of nations and some are in jail and some are walking the streets of your town. Some are Islamic terrorists that have vowed to kill us all. It is not wise to believe, absolutely, everything we see or hear or read. Not one person on this planet knows the absolute truth about anything. But I do believe this. We Americans are facing an enemy that will not relent, will not quit and will not negotiate.
This enemy will bury us if we don't defend ourselves. While searching for the "Truth" we fail to recognize what is real. War is real. Our survival is at stake, that is real. The WTC is gone that is real and we can't change it. Those Americans are gone that is real and we can't change it. Our fighting men and women are fighting a real enemy and that is all that matters to me. We can argue with the possum later.

Comment on off track comments on enemies
From the perspective of most of the world, and many in this country, the WOT is a fraud to the extent that it does not also target Israel as terrorist state. Virtually all protestant churches have website or resolution re Israeli oppression. We state that terrorism is never justified yet do nothing to stop oppression. Not counting those in jail, all Gazans are reportedly starving as we speak. Even though the 9/11 Commission refused to look into our complicity as alleged justification for attacks, it did acknowledge that was the leading cause. A simple first step in taking a target off of our back, and promoting justice, immeasurably is to stop all crimes against humanity which we directly or indirectly support. This is another topic, but it is not helpful to impugn the motives of potential enemies in advance of cleaning up our own act. Both former Sec of State Zibrenzki and James Baker stated that proper course for 9/11 was attack whoever for sure attacked us (al Quaeda) and quickly and simultaneously clean up our own act on the alleged greivances that prompted the attack (which we have not done due to politics).

lambasting by sheep
Truth Movement supporters, don't blame Bush... accusations muddy the water. Official Story supporters, don't make ad hominem attacks... insults [dangerous deniers; Bunny Cage Guy; "truther" cockroaches; conspiracy whackos; PLANES CAN'T REALLY FLY (talk about mocking intelligence); Loose Change Morons; crap, or the idiots; beat them to a bloody pulp (threats); just point and laugh at them; spoon fed conspiracy nut; unpatriotic cowards; fools incapable of critical reasoning; immune to logic; delusionists; Flag as stupid; WORTHLESS BASTARDS; bizarre theorists; mental illness; clinically insane; severe head trauma; looney bin; preposterous and pathetic; regurgitate crap; moronic conspiracy; democRATS; can't differentiate between hallucination and reality (you could be wrong)] drain the water. It's difficult enough to see clearly through the water of past events, taking into consideration the refraction of perspective. I agree with Val for the most part. I don't understand what is so conspiratorial about asking questions. I'm not looking for answers that support a hatred of our government... because I don't hate our government. Sure, it's done... and you can say the survivors should just get over it and move on... but it seems to me, the people directly affected would be honored- not mocked by an investigation. A complete hypothesis can't be constructed from a sampling of the facts and findings. Personally, I think Flight 93 was bound for WTC7 and it was shot down by our government... to avert a bigger disaster. However, whoever orchestrated the triple plane/pull on 9/11 demolished WTC7 anyway.

How about eye witnesses?
I read through all these posts and the thing that kept coming to my mind is that people I know must have been lying to me for the last five years because they were there and their stories don't add up to what planetoftheapes believes.

Let's see, my uncle-in-law is Ben Sliney, the national operations manager who shut down all the air traffic. Although it was his first day on the job as NOM, he had been in air traffic control for a couple of decades. He was in the command center, watching the scopes, dealing with the situation as it happened. He agreed to appear in "United 93" because it was the closest to the truth of what actually happened from his perspective. He tells me that prior to 911 it was not SOP for the military to scramble fighter jets when a plane lost its transponder. It happens a lot more than laymen realize and it usually doesn't mean anything. Growing up in Alaska where we fly almost more than we drive, I've flown on two aircraft that lost their transponders over the years. It just wasn't considered that big of a deal prior to 911. What Ben believes happened that day was that he inadvertently caused a turf war between the FAA and the military when he insisted they scramble jets. That was a good deal into the situation, but remember that it was his first day in that position and the military laiasons might have thought he didn't have the authority to request that of them. There were also fears of an accidental shoot-down.

My friend Ginny's brother is employed with the Pentagon and his office was in the destroyed section of the building. It is true that several offices in that section were being remodelled, but the section was still occupied. Ginny's brother was invited to go to the next section for coffee and donuts to celebrate a friend's engagement and he left his office about five minutes before the plane hit so hard it knocked him out of his chair. He was outside looking at the damage within 10 minutes of impact and he saw a huge hole and a jet aircraft -- and his office was completely gone.

Tom Connelly, a friend's uncle, worked for one of the financial companies in the towers on one of the floors of the North Tower where the plane hit. Semi-retired, he'd taken the day off because he felt like it. He lives blocks away and heard the jet hit. He ran down there to see if he could help his coworkers, not realizing that his offices no longer existed. He was there when the WTC towers fell and for Tower 7. The story he tells basically confirms the official story. Before he was a financier, he worked for 15 years as a civil engineer and he says Tower 7 was damaged by debris when the twins fell.

So, who do I believe -- a bunch of conspiracy theorists who are desperate to prove that the government of our country is evil or the people I know who were there during the events? Gee, what an easy choice!

Finally, guys, a couple of you have eluded to the rights that have been taken away from us since 911. Name them! I frankly have not seen any loss of freedom beyond the ability to take lip gloss onto an airplane. I'm still speaking my mind, going to the church I want, writing my congressmen, traveling where I want, and I own a couple of firearms. Oh, and I voted for the candidates of my choice in the last election. Although I am a dyed-in-the-wool conservative, my coworkers are mostly looney liberals who are pretty much doing the same things I do, just on the other side of the political spectrum (well, they probably don't go to church or own firearms). What rights have been taken away from us? Name one!

I really want to know!

Val's reason
Aurora,

What do you have against the government releasing available evidence: transcripts, cockpit recorders, physical evidence, videos, wreckage ect? Also, why do you have a problem with lifting the gag orders on FBI agents and firemen?

What is the BFD? Release everything and you will be cleared. Those in power act so guilty that it's really amazing that any thinking individual would defend them.

Even if you feel it is likely that there are no defenses set up to protect the Pentagon, why would you need to deny the rest of us 35-60% of America the right to view all the evidence.

Are you sub-consciously scared what you will find?

I suppose you are one of the people the supports Bush's secret prisons and the use of torture.





Definition of a Traitor
Anyone that supports the killing of 100,000 people in Iraq, in a war that had nothing to do with 9/11, according to GW Bush, is a traitor to the Constituion.

Anyone that supports the killing of thousands of innocent children in Iraq because it might, somehow protect you, is a sick coward.

Bush, don't kill any more children in the name of protecting me or my family. We would rather be attacked by terrorists than for any innocent children to be murdered in our name.

Bush bombs kids in countries with no ties to 9/11 and funds countries that have been directly tied to 9/11 like Pakistan and Saudi A.

Aurora, Bush has essentially invalidated the Constitution. It's ok with you because you haven't noticed anything yet? Are you old and demented as well as a traitor, coward and accessory to murder?





Speculative Divestment
Well aurorawatcher,

That sounds all good and fine, but I guess we have to draw the line somewhere. And in this case, I think video footage and pictures testify that Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon. Post a link of one picture that shows a section of a plane on the lawn... the unscathed lawn. You won't find one. Or maybe, post links of other plane crash sites where there is virtually no plane debris to be found at the site of the crash... well, besides that of Flight 93. Two precedent-setting plane crashes. Also, on the same day, we have three precedent-setting high-rise building collapses due to fire. And look how nice and neat WTC7 went down. About 98% of the debris landed within the footprint of the building. Hmm... what a coincidence. But of course, the twin towers couldn't have been demolished because an representative from Controlled Demolition reported that a high-rise building is Never demolished from the top down.

Gag order: An order by a judge that all parties involved in a case may not discuss it outside of court.

Don't misunderstand me here... I'm not a Bush-basher. I don't think he had anything to do with it. As I mentioned yesterday, I think he took measures to avert a bigger disaster.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

One more try
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1016720641536424083&q=9%2F11+truth

If you watch this movie about what happened during the 9/11 commission investigation you will want all information released as well.

I dare you Bush-boot-lickers, like Slade, to watch the whole thing! It's entertaining as well.

Have you ever seen a group of people behave in a more guilty, obstructive manner?

Enough
This is ridiculous, no amount of facts will ever convince people like tannabear and planetoftheapes of the truth, simply because they do not wish to see it. In fact, they are so obtuse as to make one think they are not really serious, but are sitting in a dark, (marijuana) smoke-filled room somewhere, laughing at our earnest attempts to make them see reason. I hope that is the case, because if they really believe this tripe I weep for our future.

Badfinger
Did you watch the movie? It's currently in theaters around the country. You can watch it for free at:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1016720641536424083&q=9%2F11+truth

All the government has to do is release all available information, then they will be cleared. What is the BFD? My God, what is the big deal? Bush is innocent right?

Again, why do you have a problem with verifying the government's suspicious story?

Do you know nothing of history? Governments thoughout history have abuse their citizens. We have 1000 times more to fear from this government's attack on the Constitution than any terror attack.

Well, I think the NeoCons have another big one planned for us, so we am worried actually. We have no defense against our own government.

Did you know that not a single recommendation of the 9/11 commission to secure the country has been put into effect by the Bush administration?

I wonder why?

Educate yourself before we loose our counry and do me and my family a favor and stop supporting the murder of innocent children in the name of protecting you. That has got to be the definition of a coward.

I am not Republican or Democrat. I simply support the Constitution which means I am a Patriot. What are you?

Seeing is believing
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com/2006/09/911-undeniable-truth.html

If you think the towers disintegrate because of the pancake theory.

9/11 commision
The 9/11 co-chairmen just came out with a book called Without Precedent. I read it. The entire book was about how the commission was underfunded, obstructed, biased and misled. Here is the Video CNN link.
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/VIDEO__New_Book_by_911_0810.html

Bush is innocent right? What do you have to fear? I just don't get it. Who ever taught you not to question your government? The government works for us.

I support the Constitution and am not actively supporting any political party.

Here's a recent video were Bush admits, finally, that Iraq and Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11:
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/08/21/bush-on-911/

Don't believe the poll respondents
As I argue at:
http://orangecoyote.blogspot.com/2006/09/conspiracy-theories-and-gossip.html ,
I don't think the conspiracy theorists really believe what they are saying. Conspiracy theories are a kind of rumor, and like other forms of gossip, they are often passed along as a means of indirectly attacking their subject.

So the Scripps poll that "found that more than a third of Americans believe 9/11 was an 'inside job'" really only shows that a third of respondents are sufficiently mad at the government to say this to a pollster. This is still a troubling statistic.

Google has removed the video
Google has removed the video as of this November.

Poll: Dems Love 911 Conspiracy Theories
Zogby poll 08/23/07: there are 3 main schools of thoughts regarding the 911 attack:

The Official story and 2 conspiracy theories: 1) Government Let it happen; 2) Government Made it happen.

Which theory are you more likely agree with?
____


US Total

- Official story 64%
- Gov Let it happen 32%
- Gov Made it happen 5%
- NS 7%



Democratic - Official story 51% ; Let it happen + Made it happen 43%

Independent - Official story 66% ; Let it happen + Made it happen 30%

Republican - Official story 75% ; Let it happen + Made it happen 19%

____


See also the results of poll in some more details:

http://conservativevalley.townhall.com/Default.aspx

Fear the Turthers
I fear that the truthers may have a hidden agenda. What better way to make Obama look good than to make all prior administrations look bad. By not addressing the truthers, Obama is letting their hogwash be published all over all of the media. Mainly that President Bush was party to the terrorist attacks, making him a traitor to our country.

President Obama is silent on this subject. Thus giving the appearance that he too is a follower. If he denounces the theory, he will diny them of their Bush hatred. He wants the country to hate Bush and all of the other conservatives. He wants truthers to gain more followers. That way eventually he can use their theories to further denounce all conservatives and promote his agenda.
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