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Thursday, December 25, 2008
Mary Grabar :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Atheists Who Try to Steal Christmas
by Mary Grabar
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            Tis the season. . .  for atheist Grinches to display their hatred of Christmas by trying to stomp out one of the most visible displays of Christianity in a country founded, and still operating on, Judeo-Christian principles.

            A group called Freedom From Religion began in the state of Washington, where they posted their anti-Christmas sign next to a manger display in the Capitol.  They have since continued on cross country to Wisconsin and Illinois, with their sign that reads in part, “At this season of the winter solstice, may reason prevail . . .  . There is only our natural world.  “Religion,” the sign says, is nothing but “myth” and “superstition.” 

            Abetting such efforts are preemptive capitulations like that of the library staff of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill that decided to forgo a Christmas tree.

While the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) aims its legal and propaganda guns at Christianity, some like CNN’s Mike Galanos call their attacks as directed on “people of faith.”   On their website, FFRF titled this CNN segment “FFRF vs. Christian Crybabies.” Although a menorah had been placed next to the Christmas display, it is Christians who are called “Crybabies.”  

FFRF likes to use other occasions for their attacks.  For the seventh anniversary of 9/11, FFRF placed an ad  in the New York Times with the Twin Towers skyline, headlined “Imagine a World Free From Religion.”  They warned, “American liberty is menaced not only by religious terrorism from abroad.  Consider the growing threat of religious fanaticism here at home: The relentless war against secular values, gay rights, abortion rights, stem cell research and the teaching of evolution in public schools.”  No mention was made of “the growing threat” of Islam, like separate Islamic public schools and various efforts to teach Islam in schools.  Instead, the group goes after Christians who object to the teaching of an atheistic Darwinian doctrine to the exclusion of other scientific theories like intelligent design.  In their ad the group bragged, “FFRF has stopped public funding of pervasively sectarian social agencies and schools, halted a state chaplaincy to proselytize government workers, ended unlawful bible instruction in public schools, persuaded a Top Ten university to drop commencement prayers, and won a court victory overturning a law declaring Good Friday a state holiday.”  While the group aims their sights at Bible instruction in schools, director Annie Laurie Gaylor told me that she had not even “heard of the controversy” regarding the establishment of a PUBLIC MUSLIM SCHOOL in New York City.

Their attempt to subvert Christmas with a claim that it is simply a superstitious appropriation of the solstice resembles other attempts to diminish and ultimately wipe out Christianity.  Contrary to the claims of college campus atheist debaters who like to throw out the falsehood about “Christian Nazis,” the literature of the Nazi regime reveals a deliberate attempt to transform Christmas into a pagan holiday in line with the pagan ideological goals of the Nazi regime.  While the other socialists, the communists, presented a full frontal assault on religion (meaning Christianity) by dismissing it and denigrating it as the “opiate of the masses,” the Nazi socialists were a bit more clever. 

For example, in a Nazi journal article, “New Meanings for ‘Inherited’ Customs?” archived by Calvin College’s Randall Bytwerk, author Hannes Kremer calls for creating “new ideas and new customs,” while also adjusting “those customs which have grown out of the people to the new ‘community of the Germans.’”  These customs would be given new “content,” i.e., that which would advance the goals of national socialism over traditional Christian beliefs.

            Similarly, Nazi Wilhelm Beilstein, in a 1939 brief titled “How We Celebrate Christmas,” advises taking the Christmas traditions back to their pagan roots, thus using them to promote the national socialist ideal of the “eternal life force of our nature”—a nature predicated on the belief in the biological superiority of the race.  To “deepen and enrich” Christmas traditions, Beilstein recommends celebrating the winter solstice with “community fires.”  In language similar to that being bandied about today by “change” enthusiasts, Beilstein suggests that such a new/old tradition would promote “unity”; it “signifies the being and growth of our people’s community from the spark of the worldview that the Fuhrer lit in our hearts.”  (Need we mention commemorative plates, collections of wise sayings, or the declaration of a Barack Obama holiday in at least one county?)

On Fox News a bearded and bedraggled self-described “progressive” from Massachusetts opined that he was too sophisticated for such a silly superstitious holiday as Christmas: He was going to celebrate the winter solstice.  Drumming around the bonfire, now that is based so much more on reason than are Christian traditions!      

            The educationists have maligned Christianity, but even secularists, if they are intellectually honest, have to acknowledge that our form of democracy has its roots in Christianity.  Alexis de Tocqueville in Democracy in America wrote, “there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America; and there can be no greater proof of its utility and of its conformity to human nature than that its influence is powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth.” 

            The usual suspects will complain that Tocqueville was writing about a “free nation” that hypocritically practiced slavery.  The atheists will point to the stories of rape, pillage, and murder in the Old Testament.  What about Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son Isaac at God’s command? they predictably retort.

            What they forget, or don’t know (thanks, public schools), is that child-sacrifice was common among polytheistic, “pagan” religions.  (Think about that as you worship magical Nature during the solstice.)  The Old Testament story serves as illustration of God’s mercy and a foretelling of the coming of the Savior.  And, one more time, the American abolitionist movement was a fundamentally Christian movement, as are many movements today to end slavery still being practiced in non-Western countries.

            Freedom From Religion should remember that we have freedom of religion, not from religion.  The founding fathers understood the importance of religious belief, especially that which values human reason and free will.  They understood that those without a higher authority are vulnerable to earthly tyranny.  They understood the value of such displays in the public square.  

            One needs to ask then why a group that claims to advocate “Freedom From Religion” selectively attacks the Christian religion.  If they’re so proud of eliminating commencement prayers, why haven’t they questioned calls to prayer during Ramadan and footbaths for Muslims on campuses?  Or what about prayer rooms in one our nation’s airports?  What about this Stealth Jihad?

What about it, brave free-thinkers?  Come on: I want to see a debate with a Muslim advocacy group.  I want to see it linked on Freedom from Religion’s website with the title, “FFRF vs. Muslim Crybabies.”

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About The Author
Mary Grabar earned her Ph.D. in English from the University of Georgia and teaches in the Atlanta area. She is a Pushcart Prize-nominated poet and published fiction writer. Visit her website and get on her mailing list at marygrabar.com
 
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Jen
Jen wrote: "Well, there is too much historical evidence that points to Christianity. All the names, dates, places in the bible check out. There is overwhelming proof that a man named Jesus lived 2000 years ago."

There is no historical evidence that Christianity is true. The Bible is no more accurate on history than Gone With the Wind is. And there is certainly no proof Jesus lived. The evidence is practically non-existent. Besides, there is lots of evidence Muhammad lived but I see no reason to accept his religion.

Dan


Dan: But many people conclude that other religions are correct, or that none are.

In what way does Christianity make more sense than Judaism, Islam, or Scientology?

Really, how can you logically conclude that Christianity is correct and the other are wrong?


Jen: Well, there is too much historical evidence that points to Christianity. All the names, dates, places in the bible check out. There is overwhelming proof that a man named Jesus lived 2000 years ago. Now all that is required is for one to believe he was (is) who he says he is. If one believes this (which can be logically concluded in so many ways) then Judaism isn’t overlooked at all. In fact, Christianity is simply a fulfillment of the Old Testament. Christianity doesn’t wipe out Judaism – it’s its completion.

Now, as far as something like Scientology, I personally would have a huge problem with some religion that didn’t even come into existence until recently. Things like this just don’t have the track record that Christianity does.

Obviously, there isn’t time on this thread to explain much further, but all you have to do is sincerely do a little research and you can find truth.

Go ahead, look into Islam, Buddhism, Scientology, Wicken, whatever and see if all the pieces fit together. See if you think they seem divinely inspired. If you make a sincere effort to seek out the truth, God will not steer you in the wrong direction

Correct
I live in WA, and all of the displays were paid for by the groups that put them up. There was no taxpayer cost involved - that is until Bill O'Reily made a big stink about it and government workers had to deal with all the flack.

For the record, I thought the athiest message was over the line. Christmas should be about bringing people together, not a message that says "your beleifs are wrong." There are other venues for that kind of debate (such as Internet message boards). Holiday displays indended to honor the diversity of a community are not among them.

Myk
Unconfirmed - but I emailed a friend who lives in Olympia about the Nativity scene in the state capitol. He tells me it was paid for by local groups -- the state did not pay for it. It's situated in a third-floor hallway that is little used (except that its had a lot of traffic with the controversy). The group paid a fee, presumably to cover electricity and janitorial. My friend was not part of the group, but this is what he's heard - which is why I say it was unconfirmed.

Not quite right on the Nazis
I'm aware of the academic literature on the hopes of some of the Nazi ideological writers for creating some new German religion, and certainly many prominent Nazis, including Hitler himself, made hostile comments about Christianity. However, all of this is ultimately irrelevant if one is interested in exploring the hard question of Christian support for Nazism. The undeniable historical fact is that the vast majority of Christians in nazi Germany--both Roman Catholics and Protestants--supported the Nazi regime; they worked for it, fought for it, died for it, and carried out its directives with loyalty, courage, and whole-hearted patriotism. That is what Christians need to think about. I doubt if Ms. Grabar knows much of this, but no matter.

The old dodge to get out of this dilemma is to say that "Oh well, those Germans couldn't have REALLY been Christians," but this response begs the question badly. Those Germans (a) believed themselves to be Christians by every standard that Christians have used throughout the history of their faith to define Christian doctrine; (b) the vast majority of clergy had no big problems with the Nazis either. So, I'm warranted in saying that most German Christians supported the Nazis.

Or not
"If one really wants to take the time to look into the matter, one can easily conclude that Christianity is far from arbitrary. It’s actually the only thing that makes sense. "

But many people conclude that other religions are correct, or that none are.

In what way does Christianity make more sense than Judaism, Islam, or Scientology?

Really, how can you logically conclude that Christianity is correct and the other are wrong?




Dan

Dan: When considering questions we don't know the answer to, is it not more honest to say "I don't know" that to adopt an arbitary set of answers simply because they feel good to us or are believed by others around us?

Jen: Sure, but the answers one finds in Christianity aren’t arbitrary. As AliveinHim said, “If we are willing to accept the possibility of Truth, then we must accept also that at some point in Time we can be informed of it”

We have all been wired to seek our creator – to in a sense not feel at peace until we find Him. We may all come to know God through human reason. You are stuck in thinking, “how foolish to believe in something that can’t be proven.”, whereas, I believe, “how foolish to believe something couldn’t be true simply because it can’t be proven.”

If one really wants to take the time to look into the matter, one can easily conclude that Christianity is far from arbitrary. It’s actually the only thing that makes sense.


Mary Grabar the Grinch
We will know them by their fruit, says the Bible. If the fruit consists of propagandists like Mary Grabar then we must conclude the tree bares some self-serving manipulators of truth.

Let's look at her Green Bay case. There was no long-standing tradition of putting up a Nativity scene there. City Council President Chad Fradette dragged his baby Jesus to the top of City Hall with the sole intention of picking a fight. "I'm trying to take this fight to the people who need to be fought," he said. "I'll keep going on this until this group imposing Madison values crawls back into its hole and never crawls out."

This is the new face of the Christmas spirit. It's a season of political opportunism. The grinches are of the Christian variety -- mean spirited and divisive ideologues. Just like her Nazi example, American Christian conservatives are twisting the religion to suit their own political agenda. They too are creating customs and content which will advance Party goals. This is not new. As Grabar points out, Christianity was used by the Abolitionists. but she ignores the fact it was also used by the anti-abolitionists, proving “judeo-christian” principals can be tailored to fit. Conservatives understand this. Religion in their hands is an instrument to divide and conquer, not to harmonize. The failure of the grinch was in his transformation to the good. The Mary Grabars of this world are determined to be not so easily transformed.



fabius
Question for ya...

Why aren't you talking about the record warm temps in the US over the past couple of days?

Last week you were all over pointing to cold temps as evidence against global warming. Wouldn't these record high temps be evidence for global warming, based on your logic?

Fabius Cunctator
---DA, the sophist, pays his electricity bill even though no one ever saw an electron.---

That’s not true.

http://brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/2006-07/06-174. html

That wasn’t my point, anyway. The question of was of truth and existence and how do we know we exist. This question can be befuddled by any number of philosophical arguments but in the end, if you do not accept that you exist by the products of your senses then all discovery and experience is meaningless.

---Jesus’ life is accepted as an historical fact by Jewish, Roman and world historians---

It is accepted by some jewish, roman and world historians but not all. Even if it is accepted, this could be considered an argument from authority because it does not look at the actual evidence for jesus’ having lived.

Another point of contention would be, even if he lived, there is no evidence that he was some mythical god-man hybrid. Most historians also accept the historicity of the Babylonian emperor Gilgamesh. I doubt many would accept the stories of his being a half-god.

---Also called Jesus of Galilee or Jesus of Nazareth founder of Christianity, one of the world's largest religions, and the incarnation of God “according to most Christians”---

Note the phrase in quotation marks.

As usual, the ‘holy texts’ are the primary sources. That is like using the Vedas to confirm the existence of monkey armies. All of the extra-biblical sources rely on hearsay and are separated by at least a decade, usually by several. Give me a roman source from the 1st half of the century. A prison record or listing. The bible does not correlate to roman history, at all.

will: Shows how much you DON'T know...

Christmas "Day" may be over, but the holiday is NOT.

There is still Epiphany which is one of three major Christian celebrations along with Christmas and Easter. It is celebrated by most Christians on January 6th.

It's obvious that you DON'T know far more than you DO know...

Now, move along!

Oh PLEASE! Christmas is OVER.....!
It's done. Put it aside! Let's move on!

It's time to move on to New Years and Groundhog Day. Pack up the tree and put the little baby Jesus and all the cute manger animals back into the closet until Santa starts preparing for his next visit!

There are OTHER holidays to attend to, people!

aliveinhim
---given that your very existence is a fact---

Philosophically speaking, no existence or truth can be verifiable. We assume that we exist because we have sensations that arise from the models that our brains construct. Descarte said it best when he said "Cogito, ergo sum."

---If we are willing to accept the possibility of Truth, then we must accept also that at some point in Time we can be informed of it, either in a basic sense through the Creation, our conscience, or definitively through His Word.---

This is not logically constructed. A does not require B. You are not required to be informed that you exist to exist. Does a rock know that it exists? How about an atom?

---That Truth came to us in God's Son Jesus Christ.---

How do you know this? Where is your evidence? Can you even provide evidence that jesus, let alone god, ever existed?

No, you can’t. You claim to know what you don’t know. You are deluded, at best.

Dan
Underlying your statements is the question of whether or not there is such a thing as ultimate truth. Given that your very existence is a fact, it would seem that yes, there probably is such a thing as Truth.

If we are willing to accept the possibility of Truth, then we must accept also that at some point in Time we can be informed of it, either in a basic sense through the Creation, our conscience, or definitively through His Word. We can't know Truth exhaustively, for that, like the ability to see beyond space, is not a capacity we possess, but we can know it truly. That Truth came to us in God's Son Jesus Christ. He is the Word made flesh, God's final statement on the matter of how we imperfect people are to be reconciled to Him, Who is holy above all.

The church which believes and preaches Christ's claim to be God's True Son, as well as being True Man, is the church which is preaching the truth. There will be differences in the teachings on baptism, Communion, and how the final Judgment is played out (whether in Rapturist terms or by the historical, orthodox understanding that the Last Day is simply that one day during which the final Judgment of all men occurs and the eternal state is ushered in). But the central teaching of the Christian Church is that we believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered for us under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into Hell. The third day He rose again from the dead, He ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end. I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Holy Christian Church, the communion of saints, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.


they attack what they fear
They fear the structure and clear path that Christ centered living provides.



Freedom of Speech and Literary Privilege
We reap what we sow. If we wish to win over evil, we must overcome it with good. It cannot be simpler; many Christians shove their faith under the rug when they are offended.

6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
Matthew 11:6

Too many Christians wear their faith on their sleeve for what it appears, and perhaps some claim to be what they are not.

"If we communicate in a divisive manner; who will believe you are a Christian if your light is so dim and your fruits so bitter. Did Christ teach any of this? No! He taught us to forgive, and to pray for those who despitefully use you, and bless them who persecute you. How many here are pretending they are Christians, yet are not. If you have not the spirit of Christ, you are not Christ’s, but are children of that fallen angel and Father of Lies."

By our fruits we are known, and so if we are a friend of Jesus Christ should we not seek to persuade and teach by the light of his love, as we are led by his spirit filled with by unspeakable joy?

Why is it that the spirit of the world seems so threatening? Because we are not living the light of Christ’s love.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. [Charity is the pure love of Christ]
1 Corinthians 13:13

What a pointless post.
So, Mary Grabar feels that atheists aren't playing fair when they direct most of their public relations rhetoric at Christianity rather than Islam--this in a country that is overwhelmingly dominated by Christianity. Seems obvious that they're simply focusing on the main religion of the culture. What's surprising about that?

What a lame, pointless complaint she makes.

The Christians stoile it first . . .
Atheism is nothing more than a byproduct of being sane, intelligent and educated. God delusionalists like Mary Graber are sadly deficient in all three areas.

Jen:
"Dan, it is possible to derive at truth. It actually isn’t really as complicated as you are brushing it off to be. If one was on a sincere quest for truth, he would come to the conclusion that God exists and that He left us His Church. "

OK, but which church? Or Any? And how can say that everyone on a "sincere quest for truth" arrives at the same answer?

You're going by the "feels right" test. You'd have to admit that the conclusion people reach during their sincere quests for truth seems to be influenced by what part of the world they live in and which religion they were raised in.

When I was young and the religion of my parents didn't make semse to me, friends of different religious flavors tried to bring me into theri churches. But once I was out of the church and away from the atmoshphere created by hymns, stained glass and heavenly sermons, looking up at the night sky and the thousands of stars far from our own, I came to the sincere conclusion that once we start considering questions science cannot yet answer, all we do through religion is adopt a set of made-up answers that are emotionally comforting to us.

When considering questions we don't know the answer to, is it not more honest to say "I don't know" that to adopt an arbitary set of answers simply because they feel good to us or are believed by others around us?

karen
---SATANIC PROTESTS---

Never mind that most satanists are atheist anarchists that use the name as a sort of religious satire. No, the state cannot prohibit their free speech. The whole point of free speech is to allow the minority to voice their opinion, as well as the majority.

SATANIC PROTESTS
I'm waiting to see what officials do when some Satanics decide to make demands for their beliefs. If they cave to atheists, how are they going to explain not caving to Satanics? It's all so insane. Can our government ever say no to these groups? What are they, the officials, afraid of?

grabar
---one needs to ask then why a group that claims to advocate “Freedom From Religion” selectively attacks the Christian religion.---

The reason that Christianity is the one that is most often ‘attacked’ is because it is the one that commits most of the separation infractions. It is not the only one, for instance, the ACLU sent a public school a cease and desist letter when it was found to be having muslim prayers.

---If they’re so proud of eliminating commencement prayers, why haven’t they questioned calls to prayer during Ramadan and footbaths for Muslims on campuses? ---

If not the ffrf, there has been a lot of criticism directed at the school for this and other questionable muslim actions. There was a lot of outcry when a student was expelled for throwing a quran in a toilet and another was assaulted and the complainants attempted to have him expelled for trying to show his friend a communion wafer at a state college.

---Or what about prayer rooms in one our nation’s airports?---

I do believe that these rooms are for anybody – hindu, muslim, Christian or Buddhist who wants to pray or meditate or just get away from the noise and activity.

---Or what about prayer rooms in one our nation’s airports? What about this Stealth Jihad?---

For a general idea of how atheists feel about this subject, go to:

http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewforum/6/

Some people
think nothing of trashing others belief's to bolster their own sad reality. Enough said about that.

What is so hard about leaving others to their own beliefs? Is it really necessary to make fund of, ridicule or otherwise bash others?

Get a life folks, "Do unto others what you would have them do unto you."...and this doesn't include sicko's that want to inflict harm and don't seem to care what comes back to them.

what a poorly writen article
I tried to find the part where the FFRF's site listed the court case as FFRF VS "crybaby Christians" that was NOT on their site as far as I could tell the only place I saw that was on a YouTube posting. The rest of the article is just all over the place with little drivel here and there about "campus Atheists" and Nazis, trying to tie together an outrage. Sure this is inflammatory, but the argument is that if the state gives a platform for one religion it is legally required to do the same for any religion or group of non believers. I for one am an Athiest. I also celebrate Christmas. Nativity scenes are great in churches, on peoples lawns in peoples homes, on billboards or whereever. Just not on Government property. "One nation under God" was put into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1950 and now that factoid is used to "prove" America is a Christian nation. Lines MUST be drawn, if a Christian group establishes a president you can't manufacture outrage when other follow suite.

Christmas is a pagan holiday
I feel free to not get caught up in the distraction of the secular activities during this time of year. It's stupid to try to affix Santa and commercialism with celebrating Jesus' birth. Paul told us that even non-believers can be nice to each other. Getting presents is fun though.

Values
Atheists are less likely to divorce than Christians, and are less likely to go to prison. Spin this any way you want, but I'm interested as to how you conclude that atheists are less moral.

"Secular values"???
What an oxymoron! "Values" are very flexible things in the hands of a secularist.

A little humility, please
There are obviously SOME intolerant people in ALL faiths . . . and even among SOME atheists.
However, Christmas is about CHRIST. That is why it is called CHRIST'S MASS. It is NOT about Muhammed or Islam, the Buddah, the worship of trees, Odin, Krishna, the celebration of Ganesh, Gaia, or ETs.
Let's simply allow every faith to have their particular special celebratory days "in the sun" . . . without trying to "horn in" our own religious symbols or non-religious statements on the temporary sites and displays related to someone else's special religious days. We can even have a special holiday for atheists . . . if they want it. On their OWN special days, each faith, or non-faith, could even display their symbols and/or statements in public places . . . as long as they PAY for the installation, maintenance and removal of those symbols themselves. The government, consequently, would then be simply ALLOWING them to display their symbols . . . at NO tax-payer cost . . . without favoring one group over another.
BTW, the use of a decorated tree . . . despite it's non-Christian origins . . . was incorporated by Christians, and given a Christian value, for a perfectly legitimate reason . . . as a symbol of everlasting life.
The use of that symbol was not unique to the pagans of northern Europe. It was also used in central Asia during the pre-Christian age of Rome.
It seems to me that only an un-scientific fool could claim . . . with absolute certitude . . . that the TOTALITY of all reality can be found only in that which can be materially seen, felt, heard or visibly measured. If you want to really KNOW if a spiritual reality exists, search for some type of meditation process that you can diligently practice in order to expand your own consciousness.

TEST
l,2,3

Note
The Winter Solstice (AKA Yule) is a Wiccan (i.e. Pagan) holiday. It is NOT atheistic at all.

Dan

Dan, it is possible to derive at truth. It actually isn’t really as complicated as you are brushing it off to be. If one was on a sincere quest for truth, he would come to the conclusion that God exists and that He left us His Church.

Of course, it is much easier to say, “Since I can’t prove something, it must not be true”, but this isn’t really very logical, is it?

All one needs to do is ask God to help him know what is real and what is good. If one sincerely asks this question, he will find truth.

Now, if you had a friend who was told indescribable gifts awaited him in the next room and he said, “I wasn’t quite sure which door these awesome gifts were behind, so I didn’t open any of them,” wouldn’t you think he was being a little foolish?

Just keep opening doors and eventually you’ll win the prize. When you open the right door, you’ll know it.

1st Amendment is in trouble
because of people who are organizing to rid the country of organized religion. They are engaging in their first steps by initially eliminating religion or the mention of religion from the public forum. At some point in time, if they are successful, government will not be permitted to acknowledge the existence of religion. If that comes to be then government cannot protect the free practice of religion. Government cannot protect that which it cannot recognize.

anderson659 asks:
"So camaintx, what does Thomas Aquinas fail to solve of the Euthyphto dilemna in his writings concerning moral theory?"
-----------------------------------
Trying to avoid the dilemma by claiming that good is an essential part of God's nature fails unless you can explain why this nature is unique to God. One could just as easily argue that what is good is based on human nature without needing to invoke God.

camaaintx, I have that answer
The Euthyphro dilemna. A philosophical question asked by one of the greatest philosopher names.

It has been solved. Easily.

Read the moral theory of Thomas Aquinas, after that peruse the divine command theory, the definition and examples of objective moral truth, etc.

So camaintx, what does Thomas Aquinas fail to solve of the Euthyphto dilemna in his writings concerning moral theory?

TriciaCT says:
"All that is GOOD, or truly *moral* comes
from God."
-------------------------------------
Since you seem to have resolved Euthyphro's Dilemma, maybe you would like to share your reasoning with us.

Christmas got where it is.. .
because it earned it. Atheists on the other hand have earned nothing in comparison with Christmas. That's because there's no comparable WORTH in atheism.

All that is GOOD, or truly *moral* comes
from God.


"...and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them." (Moroni 7:24)


Those, such as atheists, who believe that they can be moral and do good without God, are foolish. Or they are at least unaware that every impulse to do that which is good and 'right' comes from "the Light of Christ," or conscience, which comes from God.

They Won!!
Actually the non-believers - the scoffers of all things about Christmas were so effective that they finally won! This was the worst shopping season since way, way long ago. Why shop - buy gifts - exchange gift-giving - stroll the malls ...... and so on ??? If there is no "reason" for the "season" then why, indeed, celebrate it? So, economy watchers, give thanks to the doubters, they have opened our eyes. (For those in my corner, we still say Merry Christmas, and many of us handmake our exchange of gifts!). It's not about the money spent.

The 7 Sticks
1) Separation of church and state does not appear in our constitution. "Free exercise of" does. And "congress shall not establish" - is clearly not separation from religion.

2)Our forefathers expected all men of virtue to heed the teachings of their religion of choice, when making decisions for the country. That is why congress has *prayer* sessions.

3) There is no law that says government officials can't promote their choice of religion or personally elevate their religion over others. They simply can not make any one religion - LAW.

4) Contempt for Judea - Christian religions is the only logical reason atheists included specific targeted insults (in their display).

5)It is telling that other religions/non-religions are so desperate to be included during Christmas. It shows insecurity.

You won't find Christians musceling in on others celebrations, such as Ramadan, or Hanuka. Over all we respect them, we tolerate our diverse beliefs, and we mind our own business during them.

That is the difference - most Christians are comparably tolerant, and most other religions/non-religions show their intolerance towards Christians not just at Christmas but on a daily basis.

God Bless.

It's about control over others ...
...not about religion.

I'm a Christian. That is my decision based on what I have been taught and what I have learned on my own. It is not your place to tell me I should not be a Christian.

If you think my beliefs are stupid, or think I'm stupid, I don't care. I am secure in what I believe. It is not open for debate with you. It is not your business.

If you're an atheist, or a druid, it is not my place to tell you you shouldn't be.

I'm not a very good Christian. If I were I should love atheists and try to recruit them to Christianity so they could enjoy eternal life. I'm not enough interested in them to do that. Their destiny is their problem.

At last count our nation has more citizens who believe in a deity than who don't. That's why you see so many Christmas trees and so few atheist trees, or whatever they have. Perhaps the extended middle finger is an atheist sign. If this is it there are more of them than I thought.

Here's the simple solution: If my Christmas tree offends you don't look at it. In return, if your atheist tree or middle finger offends me, I won't look at it.

But don't tell me or any other Christian that we are stupid for our beliefs unless you, yourself arrogantly claim you have the infinite wisdom to understand everything in this life, past present and future, and in the universe.

The only real stupidity that exists is in thinking you already know everything there is to know, have all the answers, and there is nothing yet to be discovered.

Chuckles

not taking a side
i'm not taking one side or the other, it just seems a little unfair to remove his posts and then continue to bash him in subsequent posts.. a bit Orwellian i might add ; )

Atheists
Any time a column is written about atheism,Christainity or homosexuality,the same vermin creep out from the depths of sewers around the country.

They are so happy to shout to the world how they hate us who try to do the right thing .They tell us how much more intelligent they are than we who believe in our Creator.

It is odd that the same people who do not believe in God also are the same ones who push every kind of diviant behavior that has brought us to ruin in this country.

God gave everyone a free will. He does not try to force Himself on anyone. No one here tries to force anyone else to see things as we do. It is the nay-sayers who do just that.

They will say such awful things about us and what we believe,then when we try to defend it,they are so quick to say,"That is so not Christian-like." They get off on that.

We just celebrated Christ's birthday,whether some of you like it or not. You can celebrate a holiday soon. We will not bother you or condemn you. It is April Fool's Day. How un-Christian of me!!!

on Ranger..
Just a question.. if everyone is so certain that Ranger Rob has nothing but drivel to post, why are his posts continually deleted? Why not let them stand on their own and let other readers judge from themselves instead of just seeing your responses to them? The site is, after all, named townhall.com, not echochamber.com..

Damn!
"To Hell with all who do not have faith. Let all have no faith wollow around in their evil and the excrement from which they came. These "people" live in the filth of their non-belief and deserve nothing more than then the flames of Hell and and the sword of eternal damnation to rip them apart with all its reward."

And I thought that the Athieat message in the WA State Capitol was a bit intolerent!

Answer to Pascal's Wager
Is it not better to live your life believing in God and die to find out you were right or live your life not believing in God and die to find out you were WRONG?

You could rephrase this many ways:

Is it not better to live your life believing in Mohammad and die to find out you were right or live your life not believing in Mohammad and die to find out you were WRONG?

Is it not better to live your life believing in Joseph Smith and die to find out you were right or live your life not believing in Joseph Smith and die to find out you were WRONG?

Is it not better to live your life believing in L. Ron Hubbard and die to find out you were right or live your life not believing in L. Ron Hubbard and die to find out you were WRONG?

If you were to logically conclude that an "intelligent designer" does exist, the next question is "which of the 10,000 relgions on earth is the CORRECT one?"

There is no way to test which religion is the right one, or even of ANY of them are the right one. So most poeple just go with whatever religion they were raised in, or whichever different one fills some emotional need they have.

And if you can meet your emotional needs for a sense of order in the universe some other way, you're an athiest.


Constantine and Christianity
Constantine had little to do with Christianity's establishment. He hosted an ecumenical council at Nicea, but was barely in attendance. His representative was interested in unity of outcome, not actual decisions. Most of the Nicean Creed had already been discussed and agreed at regional councils in the decade prior to Nicea. The argument at Nicea was over the nature of Christ. Arians believed Christ was a lesser god; Christians believed Christ was THE God (and had since at least AD 60 when Philippians was written). After the Christians voted (308-2) on Christ's nature, they excommunicated the Arian bishops. Constantine's cousin was an Arian bishop. A few years later, Constantine tried to suspend the excommunication of the Arians and declared the Nicene Creed to be incorrect. He was baptized on his deathbed by an Arian and his successor was openly Arian and hostile to Christianity, though it never rose to the level of persecution. Had Constantine actually tinkered with Christianity, it would be an Arian religion today. Info from Daniel Wallace, Reinventing Jesus, and Goggle Constantine and Arianism.

Damned
To Hell with all who do not have faith. Let all have no faith wollow around in their evil and the excrement from which they came. These "people" live in the filth of their non-belief and deserve nothing more than then the flames of Hell and and the sword of eternal damnation to rip them apart with all its reward. There are not enough words to describe my feelings toward them and only hope to see them get the reward that they so richly deserve.
We are taught to love the sinner and hate the sin, but those who choose to reject forgivness should suffer for their rejection. NO sympathy here for those who have no faith.
Aethists be damned for eternity.

Spiceman0
You wrote - Christ was born on a Friday, a day before the Sabbath, or our Saturday. It was during the Passover which is in the spring ....

What is your source for this information?

It's bad enough that theists make things up and take things out of context, but Christians do ourselves no service when we do the same. Every historical treatment I've encountered of the birth of Christ has postulated that it was in the fall. There is no Biblical record of the day of the week that I can find and no mention whatsoever of the Passover. While your statement showed great symmetry with His death, that's not a good reason to create information that doesn't exist. Let's stick with the facts we can defend. We have enough trouble with those without adding fiction to it.

So, what is your source for this information?

America Was Founded For Christianity
America was founded by Christians for Christians with tolerance for other religions.
It was founded as a Christian nation without a state church, as was the case in England, the place they fled. Today, anti-Christ forces seek desperately to revise the intent of the founding fathers, and to force their obscene
practices upon the Christian majority. When the writers of our Constitution used the term "religion", they were speaking of Christianity, because they recognized no other belief system as authentic. Now revisionists
want to redefine the use of words in our Constitution to deconstruct our not only our Christian history, but also our contemporary Christian way of life. They are the same crowd who has done everything they could to destroy public education, in order to turn our youth into "cattle" they can stampede at will.
They don't want us to know our history. Like this quote for example:
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinites of nations." - Patrick Henry
All non-Christians, have found a good home here among The Christian founding majority. Those who seek to abolish our Christian culture be they Jews, Muslims, Buddists, Hindus, atheists or any confederation of the afore mentioned, should rethink their self-defeating strategy and declare a live-and-let-live truce with the Christian majority. Because Jehovah, The Great I Am watches over this great nation. Merry Christmas one and all!"

Tim
"Now,tell us how you atheist clowns celebrate Hanukkah,Ramadan and Kwanzaa."

Tim, these holidays are usually quiet for me. Can you point me to a Hanukkah, Ramadan, or Kwanzaa display on government property where FfRF has neglected to put up an annoying sign? If so, I'll try to pass it along. Now you do your part and make sure some TH blogger writes about about how offended they are by it so we can all join in on the fun!

Words of our Founding Father
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

John Adams
Founding Father

Our Great Folly
To demean or offend others for their sincere devotion is a violation of the golden rule. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” It is the devils rule that says, “do unto others as they do unto you.”

Atheist, Islam, Christian or Jew, peace is as peace does.

Anderson
"Pat Condell, a so called British comedian and hard core atheist, usually attacks Christians."

He doesn't attack Christians. He criticises all aspects of different religions that he disagrees with. He's never 'attacked' anyone, and certainly hasn't criticised Christianity more than Islam. He's a perfect example of what you often claim doesn't exist - an atheist happy to come out and criticise Islam.

You can add him to Richard Dawkins, Chris Hitchens, Dan Dennet and many other atheists happy to criticise Islam. This idea that Christianity comes under special treatment is nonsense.

"However Condell decided to do an attack on Sharia law in Britain, his first..."
Again, nonsense.

"It was censored from you tube, and others."
...Before being reinstated. Youtube said:
"Upon further review of the context of Pat Condell's comments, we've reinstated it."

Happy now?

By the way, how come all these Christians have the time to post up so many messages over Christmas?

Steve: "Is it not better to live your life believing in God and die to find out you were right or live your life not believing in God and die to find out you were WRONG?"

What if YOU are wrong and God turns out to be Shiva, Zeus, Allah etc? What if God turns out reward people simply for being good people, regardless of what they believe. If so, I'm quids in. Meanwhile, all the sinful Christians and Muslims are the ones in trouble.

Are you really Christian
If you communicate in such a divisive manner? I cannot believe you are a Christian if your light is so dim and your fruits so bitter. Did Christ teach any of this? No! He taught us to forgive, and to pray for those who despitefully use you, and bless them who persecute you. How many here are pretending they are Christians, yet are not. If you have not the spirit of Christ, you and not Christ’s, but as children of that fallen angel and Father of Lies.

Constantine Mess it up
He brought the Pagans and Christians together and changed the day of Christ’s real birthday form the spring to the date of the Pagan Holliday when he created the universal church or the Catholic Church.

Funny how we forget, that Constantine was a Pagan, but he claimed he was a Christian. He was a politician just like the secularists of today. I guess in two-thousand years a lot can be forgotten.

Christ was born on a Friday, a day before the Sabbath, or our Saturday. It was during the Passover which is in the spring and he was crucified on a Friday as well at the same time as I can recall.

1 IN the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Matthew 28:1

He died Friday night, the Sabbath or Saturday until Sunday morning he was in the grave when he was risen. When he died he said, forgive them Father, they know not what they do. We must do the same.

THE BEST TO ALL OF YOU. BE NOT OFFENDED NOR SHOULD WE OFFEND.


Atheism
To all Atheists I say:

Is it not better to live your life believing in God and die to find out you were right or live your life not believing in God and die to find out you were WRONG?

Christeians, Take A Good Look ...
Christians, Take A Good Look ...

At your selves.

Have you ever listen to you selves. Atheists do not hate Christ, they hate those who claim to represent him, and do it in such a negative way.

On the first Christmas the message of the Angles was as follows:

8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Luke 2:8 - 14

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 5:14 - 16

"Success needs no excuse, and failure leaves no excuse." P. L. Hansen

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Matthew 5:9

As an atheist
I can tell you that my family has celebrated Christmas for literally generations - as atheists. There is nothing in the holiday that has to do with a virginal birthing in Palestine. The church, however, has worked hard for a long time to supplant the original holiday with their own story and to get you to believe it (and in some cases they've been successful, as evidenced by the author's essay).

Here's the bottom line: if you have a pine tree in your house, you are celebrating our ancient and wonderful northern european pagan holiday, with all the trappings: stockings filled to the brim, Santa Claus, reindeer, pine trees, elves who make the toys, halls decked with holly, mistletoe, etc... It's a truly wonderful holiday that the church never should have messed with.

About 90% of Americans enjoy and honor our traditionally pagan Yuletide holiday without any reflection of some baby born in Palestine (which has absolutely nothing to do with what is ACTUALLY celebrated in America).

Evolution Debate is On
This is one religion versus another. Personally, to believe in the theory of Darwin requires a lot more "faith" than belief in a divine being. Start with the fact that, statistically, physiologically, and chronologically the theory of evolution ammounts to bad science fiction. As an example, the first primitive mammals had to simulataneously evolve respective reproductive organs (complete with ziogts), the womb, mammory glands, the composition of mothers milk, the appropriate neurological programming (ie instincts), all within a 1 to 10 year time frame (not 300 billion,) successfully carry the fetus to term, which then lives to adulthood unto finding a mate of it's own... etc. Next time someone says to you, "I'm not going to sit here and debate evolution." Respond, "Yes, you are."

Freeemom From Religion
I thought we lived in a democracy where the majority rules. It seems that the rights of a few disgruntiled individuals have been allowed to smear the majority of us who practice a reliigion. They should not be given a platform to disparage those who believe. I'm tired of these misfits pontificating about something they neither understand nor chose to respect. It's time for the majority to stamp out the hatred and misinformation. We should all respect one other's faith. This is a country founded on Judeo Christian ideals, and while we have many other religions, that doesn't ignore what America is all about. Enough!

Jeanette

scooternyc: Actually, NO ONE CARES what

you "Think or Believe."


just tuning back in
and i see the arguing is still strong. And on Christmas no less! Robert, looking at your many posts. I see you are being asked to point to a specific time when someone attempted to "Force" their beliefs on you. All I see is a lame story about a school valedictorian. You say you were on the school board at the time? So are you saying some high school kid WANTED to give a speech and you as an ADULT were then FORCED to bow to this young-whippersnappers belief? The NERVE!

Or wait, does it get worse? Did he actually give a speech? And were you forced to LISTEN. I'm so sorry you were subject to such coercion and force. It must have been awful for you. Having to sit there, helpless, listening to the aspirations and desires of a young man. Did they make you listen to the whole thing, or did you get to plug your ears and go nah-nah-nah?

just tuning back in
and i see the arguing is still strong. And on Christmas no less! Robert, looking at your many posts. I see you are being asked to point to a specific time when someone attempted to "Force" their beliefs on you. All I see is a lame story about a school valedictorian. You say you were on the school board at the time? So are you saying some high school kid WANTED to give a speech and you as an ADULT were then FORCED to bow to this young-whippersnappers belief? The NERVE!

Or wait, does it get worse? Did he actually give a speech? And were you forced to LISTEN. I'm so sorry you were subject to such coercion and force. It must have been awful for you. Having to sit there, helpless, listening to the aspirations and desires of a young man. Did they make you listen to the whole thing, or did you get to plug your ears and go nah-nah-nah?

Irrational hatred of Christ…


‘One needs to ask then why a group that claims to advocate “Freedom From Religion” selectively attacks the Christian religion.’ –Mary Grabar


Why are some men obsessed with an irrational hatred of Christ? Why are men so quick to disparage Christ by pointing out the sins of His people and those who profess His name?
Christ denounced the religious hypocrisy of His day. His enemies could not accuse Him of sin; they hated Him without cause.

Why do we think that there are no Pharisees today? This deadly and damning form of evil is evident throughout church history and continues today.

Why will men suppress the truth that civil liberty and prosperity are fruits of Biblical Christianity as demonstrated in the uniqueness of America? Why will men deny their heritage of freedom and exchange it for tyranny by destroying the foundations of liberty.

There are words that explain these things, but they are neglected because the modern church has determined that parts of the Bible are less than helpful and even offensive.

But the Gospel is offensive because sin is offensive. It is written of Christ that He is the rock of offense [1 Peter 2]. Our opinion of Him is the issue that separates men.

The forgotten words explain that God’s purposes in redemption include enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the deceiver…

So the LORD God said to the serpent:

“…And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
[Genesis 3:14-15]

Here is a first principle in history of that which normally lies behind the scenes, but of late has again come to the surface for all to see.

Very Well Said
Go Mary - this article is great! We need more people who will speak for what is right.

Ranger29

. . . "school graduations are taxpayer events".
Yes, of course they are.
So?
What EXACTLY is your point?
Look, you certainly seem like a reasonably erudite person. I am not in any way questioning your intelligence. However, the question remains . . . What were you FORCED to do, or to accept? By your own words, you, and others, had the power to reject and LEGALLY stop what that young man was ATTEMPTING to do . . . and you did exercise that power. So what were you FORCED to do that you could NOT stop? Help me to understand.
Are you being FORCED to do something just because, by chance, you hear an opinion or idea you don't like? If I walk across a tax-payer funded college campus, and cannot avoid HEARING the rants of some lunatic Marxist professor, am I actually being FORCED to accept and believe what he says . . . given the fact that I can continue to walk away, or, if he is doing something ILLEGAL, call the police on him?

Think or Believe
...in whatever you want, just keep it out of government.

Problem: religion won't keep itself out of government.

When you create fear in human beings about their liberties being subverted for any one particular ideology, you will get the response from other Americans, atheists or not, pushing back in strong terms.

Why?

Because taking away choice is manipulation and