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Sunday, April 06, 2008
Mary Grabar :: Townhall.com Columnist
Granny Did Not Get Run Over by a Tank
by Mary Grabar
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When I saw the banner held by the ten “brave” grannies arrested for protesting the Iraq War in front of an Atlanta Army recruiting station on March 17, and the same tag in the YouTube video by an aspiring filmmaker, I thought they didn’t want us to send them their grandchildren.

What else can you make of “Send Us Not Our Grandchildren”? That “we’re too busy for them with our protesting, and fulfilling our potentials? Send us puppies instead?”

It was only after I read the blurb accompanying the video for the Atlanta Grandmothers for Peace protest that I got it. Oh! “Send us, not our grandchildren.”

The grannies, you see, wanted to sign up for the army. As I tell my students: That’s the power of punctuation.

You can watch the harrowing experience here where you’ll see ten grannies chanting from a balcony and then politely asked to leave by a couple of police officers, or else they’ll have to take further action.

In a supreme act of bravery they stand their ground and state they will not leave.

Then comes the footage of the grannies’ ordeal. As the doors to the paddy wagon are opened for them, they are asked to hand over their bottled water!

What kind of a democracy is this when one cannot even take her bottled water or the snacks in her purse with her to jail?

Well, that’s about it, except towards the end the mug shots are flashed as if they were of those “disappeared” by some South American regime. These grannies were released in time for dinner—and grocery shopping and a stop at the beauty parlor if they wanted. Their imprisonment lasted two hours.

This video is boring, except to those who have the time to seek validation for all their own acts of “bravery,” such as “speaking to power” in the form of a paper on the hegemony of Western grammar; It’s guaranteed to earn you tenure from your like-minded colleagues or at least an A from 95% of the professors in humanities departments.

Well, this is a great way to spend a weekday morning if you’re retired and want the recognition you’ve never received before. You can continue the adolescent rebellion from your teen years in the 1960s when you knew nothing much would happen to you if you skipped the college classes your parents or the government were paying for. Or if you missed out on that opportunity, this cause is your chance. And you can help an aspiring Michael Moore documentary maker in the process!

This is the chance to do what Henry David Thoreau did by his act of “civil disobedience,” which gave him a night in the jail and a good meal. Many a freshman has been inspired by reading his essay on civil disobedience, especially under the tutelage of a radical professor who forgets to mention that only under a civil government is civil disobedience possible. The tank drivers in Tiananmen Square apparently had never heard of the concept.

I think these grannies were taught the same things about civil disobedience during their “teach-ins” on campus. I suppose they’re under the delusion that they’re “making a difference” by being arrested. I would suggest that it’s a case of “arrested development.”

Among the grannies’ chants were such originals as “End this war” and “Save the children.” They would do the world more good by learning punctuation and home schooling their grandchildren, who need to get out of the indoctrination centers called public schools that overlook basic skills in favor of teaching “social justice.”

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About The Author
Mary Grabar earned her Ph.D. in English from the University of Georgia and teaches in the Atlanta area. She is a Pushcart Prize-nominated poet and published fiction writer. Visit her website and get on her mailing list at marygrabar.com
 
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Grannies, do something useful!
If you really want to reduce some of the extremely widespread non-U.S. barbarism in the world, I'd suggest you travel to Sudan and conduct your protests outside the palace of Fuehrer (nominally the President, but let's be honest) Umar al-Bashir.

There are no shortage of life-and-death issues, but you could start with Human Slave Trade and racial/religious genocide.

I doubt that you will make it back alive, since Fuehrer al-Bashir doesn't believe in free speech or civil disobedience. HOWEVER, we promise we will build a fitting memorial to your unending display of courage--just like you demonstrated in Atlanta.

Good luck and God speed!

If you really want to reduce some of the extremely widespread non-U.S. barbarism in the world, I'd suggest you travel to Sudan and conduct your protests outside the palace of Fuehrer (nominally the President, but let's be honest) Umar al-Bashir.

There are no shortage of life-and-death issues, but you could start with Human Slave Trade and racial/religious genocide against blacks, Christians, and animists.

I fear that you will not make it back alive, since Fuehrer al-Bashir doesn't believe in free speech or civil disobedience. But it will be worth it to show how dedicated you are to social justice. HOWEVER, we promise we will build a fitting memorial to your unending display of courage--just like you showed us in Atlanta.

Good luck and God speed!

However who is really two faced?
Was he USA not im bed with Saddam while he was at war with Iran as pictures show Rumsfeld shaking hands in Baghdad with this criminal he already was, to his own people and God only knows what military stuff America supplied him with during those years? No question in this present war those who supported Saddam during those golden years, have they not of late in this war used armaments produced by America? As to Bin Laden etc., America even provided those Afganistanis trying to get rid of the Soviets, with some one thousand stronger bred mules so they could be more effective in those mountains as compared to their scrony mules, and again God knows what else America gave them free of charge. Yet when the Soviet finally pullout, America did the same and indeed leaving the door wide open for the Taliban to take over. Yet, presently poppy growing in Afganistan has increased way beyond it ever was while America is there. So what goes anyway? In reality presently America is paying a heavy price over this two faced attitude. Yes, all that past is haunting America to death, while claiming life is getting better than it ever was everywhere. As the old saying goes: Your sins will find you out. Yes, all these past will stand forever as an insult to the ones who Founded this great Nation, especially when America's big bellicose nose is circling the globe with up 40 millions of illegals dancing in America's street as even the USA borders are open so that illegal drugs keep America's dope addict supplied at an ever cheaper price, sort like the icing of it all as hell drwaws ever nearer? Nothing is more destructive than ignoring past history; this is true for individuals, but even more so for America, the Nation Under God and claims to trust in God. This God is not an enabler of sweeping things under the rug, the last time I checked!

Agreed....
I ditto what Savage99 said to you ManMountain.

Thanks for setting the historical record straight. It's too bad that the BDS inflicted leftists that frequent TH are in such willful denial that your informative posts will fall on deaf ears and minds!

Reminds me of that famous line in 'A Few Good Men' ...leftist 'can't handle the truth'!

Thank you ManMountain
You could be the Dean of statisticians.

so it appears that
Congress and the former President lied to the incoming President, who then took the recommendations and acted upon them. The Dims listed above wanted Saddam out as much as anyone and pressured to have him ousted. And you keep telling the lie that "Bush Lied".

and even more data
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and w! ill likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-WV), Oct 10, 2002


"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do."
- Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA), Oct! . 10, 2002


"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapon stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY), Oct 10, 2002


"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D-FL), Dec. 8, 2002


"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly! grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation .. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D-MA), Jan. 23. 2003

and more data
"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI), Sept. 19, 2002


"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002


"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002


"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA), Sept. 27, 2002


"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D-WV), Oct. 3, 2002


"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D-MA), Oct. 9, 2002



and more data.
"We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI), Tom Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry ( D-MA), and others Oct. 9, 1998


"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the devel! opment of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), Dec. 16, 1998


"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999


"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D-FL,) and others, December 5, 2001



A little historical data for Deathstar
Your earlier comment was:

But if congress is lied to, as it was under the Johnson administration and more recently, by the Bush administration, I would hope you would love your country enough to point it out and object.

Bush's war has hurt this country in a way that may not be repaired. It's amazing to me that you think so little of America that you would discourage anyone from trying to do the right thing.

Who lied to Who?

One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998


"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998


"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of ! a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998


"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

Rowly
I agree with your statement.

Mr.Bojangles
I don't recall my saying Iraq attacked us on 9/11.They were shooting at our planes in the no-fly zone and threatening their neighbors.

Everyone KNEW Saddam had WMD.That they weren't found,doesn't mean they weren't there.Clinton wanted to do the same thing Bush did,but did not have the nerve,nor did he want to mar the legacy he was trying to repair.

The president went to Iraq with the consent of congress.He will end it at the consent of congress.Congress'approval rate is in the teens.If they thought it would help their reputation,they could end the conflict,anytime.

I agree peace will never come to that region,but if one country can be improved,maybe others will emulate it. Syria has. Maybe others will.

ICLVDIVS
Your post @ 5:58pm sunday about the 60's protests:

It's truth as I remember it, and that is that many--maybe even most--of the so-called "protestors" at those demonstrations couldn't explain why they were really there. It was obvious most were there to get high and get laid.

Rowly
My goodness how could I forget, Iraq attacking us on 9/11. Saddam, that secular leader of Al Qaieda. I hear he is Osama's brother, heck he looks just like him and his name is just as weird. Know I see why you hate Iraq.

Really though, when did Iraq attack us? Don't tell me Al Sadr stated he would wipe out our troops, we invaded his country, he has every right to be upset. If this was flip floped you would be doing the same.

Besides, he has been quiet in the past few months,(remember the surge is working) until our monthly tribute check to him bounced.

The Sunni's, Sh**ts, Kurds have been at it for over 1000 of years, they will have to work out there problems, not us. Besides, Democracy is the will of the people and can not be forced.



Short answer, YES, he has
Pancho writes: Monday, April, 07, 2008 1:36 AM
Make me STFU
Internet tough guy.

>The Lieutenant has been there in the middle of it, he knows of what he speaks.<

"Really? He's been in the middle of 2.5 million Sadrists in Sadr City speaking Arabic with the locals and analyzing their positions? He's been wiring up their electricity so they have more than 4 hours per day?"


Not just in Sadr City, but in other cities and villages throughout Iraq, doing elecrtical wiring in their homes, and rebuilding their schools and hospitals as well as other buildings, public and private.

AND, he's fluent enough in several Arabic languages that the people will talk freely to him about many things.
In addition, their electrical grid is in such poor shape due to the policies of Saddam and his sons to keep the people under their thumbs.

But if you'd actually been there to see this for yourself, instead of sitting behind your monitor spouting your Democrat party/DailyKos talking points, you'd actually know these things instead of acting like a know it all from othe safety of your own home.

And as for you telling me to "take your false bravado and put it where the sun never shines," NO THANKS, I wouldn't want to get anywhere near your house, or your basement hideaway from the real world. But thanks for the invite anyhow.

Make me STFU
Internet tough guy.

>The Lieutenant has been there in the middle of it, he knows of what he speaks.<

Really? He's been in the middle of 2.5 million Sadrists in Sadr City speaking Arabic with the locals and analyzing their positions? He's been wiring up their electricity so they have more than 4 hours per day?

You obviously are a product of faux patriotism. You see, I'm an American every bit as much as you are. I can criticize our military policy as much as I want, especially when it has absolutely nothing to do with national security.
So take your false bravado and put it where the sun never shines, tough guy.




Actually Pancho, YOU'RE the ignorant one
The Lieutenant gave a very clear reason why the "poverty-stricken Sadrists" were taken out. Because some of them were shooting at ours and the Iraqis troops.
YOU just don't want to see it.

And I'm sure that as per our standing policy throughout modern warfare, they do EVERYTHING possible to avoid collateral damage. That means killing truly innocent people. But with the insurgents hiding among and dressed the same as the civilians, there are going to be mistakes made and innocents will die.

Aside from that, it's been widely reported, even in the LIBERAL MSM that Muqtada al Sadr has sworn to wipe out the US Troops in Iraq.

AGAIN, if you don't know it, it's only because YOU DON'T WANT TO.

The Lieutenant has been there in the middle of it, he knows of what he speaks.
WHERE have you been during this war? Sitting behind a computer criticizing the President and the military like a good little America hating leftist? I thought so.

STFU until you've personally been in the middle of the fight putting YOUR LIFE on the line and have at least SOME accurate knowledge of the situation to speak from. You ignorant moron.

Delusional
In other words, you have no reason why we are bombing poverty-stricken Sadrists in Basra and Sadr City.

Now, when did Al-Sadr declare war on us? What American city has he attacked.

Keep up your delusional fantasies.

Iraqi Sadrists are no more the enemy of the United States than Chechnyans. This is a battle between Iraqi factions and has nothing to do with US security or national defense.

In addition, your imbecilic and juvenile name-calling goes a long way to explaining your ignorance.

ModMark
Please consider that you might be wrong about what the "majority" in the US feel about the WOT.

And that if people think the country is going in the wrong direction, it may not be for the reason you think it is.

And good night.

ModMark
and who did that survey? The fair and balanced MSM,I presume....

bojangles
When was the last time we were hit?

USMC LT
YES SIR!! It's easy being 'RIGHT'....and I thank you and your family for your sacrifice...SEMPER FI.

Rowly
How has the war in Iraq kept us safe?

Pancho The Lefty (Ask Willie Nelson.)
Leave it to another left-winger to come on this thread and try to say something DEEP and wind up showing how little they care for our country.

Why do we never hear these 'betrayed'soldiers say they do not want to do what they are doing in Iraq? Most who come home,want to go back to finish the job.They only feel betrayed by the liberals back home.

You don't want to hear the truth.It would not sit well with your mindset.Leftists can see nothing worth fighting for.Not even this country.

If we had been hit again after 9/11,your kind would be the first to blame the president for doing nothing to keep us safe.At least,unlike Clinton,he has kept the enemy busy outside the USA.




Betrayal
>Aside, of course, from the part of it where the Democrat Party betray those of us who are putting it all on the line to keep the terrorists from attacking our homeland again, with statements such as The War is lost, we can't win(Dingy Harry Reid)and started demanding that we cut, run and surrender(John Murtha) BEFORE the job is done.<

Unfortunately, it is the American serviceman who has been betrayed. Where in this mission "to keep the terrorists from attacking our homeland again" does it make sense to use bombers and attack helicopters against poverty-stricken Shiites in Sadr City and Basra in support of Iranian-supported Iraqi security forces?

Not only does this not have anything to do with making America safer, it fans the flames of hatred and further divides the entities within Iraq.

Can you provide one good reason why we are now at war with Iraqi Sadrists, other than a thirst to continually have to have a target to bomb?


Apology to Posters
The only way to get through to someone like deathstar is ridicule.

The war
I might just wait till we invade Iran, with that much oil to profit off of I should be able to buy a Porsche SUV!

Geek
Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you!!!

Now that my point is safely made and verified, I can sign off to enjoy my Sunday evening.

Good night, Geek, you're a sport.

Liberal Narcissim
The sick narcissist's sense of self-worth and self-esteem derive entirely from audience feedback.

The narcissist has no self-esteem or self-worth of his own. In the absence of observers, the narcissist shrivels to non-existence and feels dead.

Hence the narcissist's preying habits in his constant pursuit of Narcissistic Supply. Pathological narcissism is an addictive behavior.

The War
Don't worry everyone, Iraqi oil is going to pay for this war. Heck, we might even profit. I know I want my cut! I've been eyeballing a Lexus SUV for months.

Be kind to deathstar
Deathstar is handicapped by a type of serious mental disorder called a "psychosis" or Liberalism in which a person cannot tell what is real from what is imagined. The main feature of this disorder is the presence of delusions, which are unshakable beliefs in something untrue.

Those who are afflicted with Liberalism have problems with recollections of their mis-deeds and total recall with mis-deeds of opposers.

Truth relativism increases proportionately when facts are not congruent with their statements.

Rationalizations increase dramatically when behaviour is spotlighted.

Ambguity becomes straightforward answers.

Opinons become knowledge and facts become appraisels formed in the mind.

Dysfunctional behaviour is normal and normal behaviour is dysfunctional.

Deviate behaviour is normal and normal behaviour is unenlightened.

Empathy for criminals proportionately increases while sympathy for the criminals victim decreases.

Sins of the guilty should be paid for by the innocent.

Responsiblity of ones actions and decisions are clearly the fault of others.

deathstar
I have a question for you.

Did you hold your breath and lay on the floor when you didn't get your way as a child?

Geek
You just keep providing me with perfect illustrations of my characterization of TH, a.k.a. politics-lite.

Your just the gift that keeps on giving.

deathstar
I know a guy who can give you a package deal on bumper stickers. He might even give you a discount on the "Diversity = Unity" tatoo.

Just another compassionate conservative trying to help.

Retired Geek
Thanks for illustrating my point so beautifully.

You're really deep, and profound, at least by TH standards.

New Liberal Paradox
Liberals are caught again in their twisted logic.

Liberals have succeeded in convincing "the sagging nation" into believing - "defeat = victory" (at least they didn't take off their bras).

Liberals have proudly displayed diversity stickers and rainbow stickers supporting multi-culturalism on their cars. Now they are feverishly printing new stickers for their zombie armies - "diversity = unity".

Liberals have convinced their minions that - "death = compassion" at the tune of 400,000 per year.

Liberals have convinced their mindless robots - "The best defense = No defense".

Liberals have declared war on families - "government units are better than family units".

Liberals have convinced their useful idiots that - "Self determination = Government clients".

I can't wait to see the proud liberals driving along with all of these bumper stickers pasted on their cars smugly looking at others with their superior knowledge.



even Grabar
writes an entire column about a handful of war-protesters whose signs she can't understand, because she's not capable of anything substantive.

I wish
that threads like these could develop into serious, coherent posts about the mess we are in, but I realize this will just be followed by a bunch of numbing statements about drug-crzed hippies, "Bush-Haters" and fascists, -- anything to not have to try to understand things clearly and succinctly.

Continue with your war-is-just-another-Mel-Gibson-movie discussions, fortunately, it's an easier way to look at it.

Polly
" combined with the Dems, who promise to surrender quickly, and the MSM, who think that's great, why would the terrorists even consider giving up?!! "

Where have you been for the past 6 years? Iraquis did not cause 9/11, those particular terrorists were Saudis. Second, Iraqi Sunnis and Shiites are fighting each other, they kill Americans because we are on THEIR SOIL, beating down their doors and telling them what to do.
Sunnis are also killing other Sunnis and Shiites have also divided amongst themselves.

Whenever I read about the war on TH I feel as though there is a comic strip somewhere that provides all the information that conservatives are supposed to subscribe to.

Dems are not surrendering to anybody - it is not a win-lose war. This surge was supposed to provide the Iraqui government with a chance to straighten itself out, but it has no wherewithall or even motivation for doing so - the most energetic thing they did was to attack their own countrymen.

We have broken Iraq, we can't fix it.

Polly
As soon as the dust settled from the WTC,it began.They have so much hatred for Pres.Bush,it clouds their thinking about everything else.

Almost EVERYONE,including congress,thought there were WMD's.They could not allow us to win in Iraq,though,because it was Bush's War.Thus,they have underminded it on every occasion.


Now,they blame the president for the monetary problems.The Democrats have owned congress for one and one-half years. What have they done? They would sit back and watch the bottom fall out of the economy,if it would make Bush look any worse.

Until libs get some anger management treatments,there is no help for them.

BRUTE FORCE
ANNE:
REALITY CHECK: Iraq is a warzone! Ask yourself, would you rather write on a flat piece of paper or one all crumbled up?
Iraq is flat - Pakistan crumbled up; France is flat - Italy crumbled up. Hannibal from Cartiage (remember him) chose to attack Rome (Italy from the North (the Alps) as opposed to climbing up the Boot of Italy from the south.
Wars are exercises in "Brute Force" and those that chose to attack the WORLD TRADE CENTER and kill three thousand innocents chose to do business by Brute Force. Chasing Osama BinLaden in and around Pakistan is Keystone Kops. The real OBL is either dead (he needed weekly dialysis) or living anonymously under an assumed name in some resort village.
This isn't rocket science: if I were OBL what would I do? Answer: Get the Hell out of town.

Obama-Stupid with his Harvard Law Degree has pent up solutions to self imagined problems; ergo, is this guy smoking merde or snorting merde but he sure is full of MERDE.

mind-altering drugs? (cont.)

The grannies alone aren't giving the terrorists hope, but combined with the Dems, who promise to surrender quickly, and the MSM, who think that's great, why would the terrorists even consider giving up?!!

Was it all the mind-altering drugs?
Could it be all the drugs that caused the aging hippies to forget that it was Wm. J. Clinton who originally called for "regime change" in Iraq--in 1998. As I recall, he was surrounded by smiling, maybe even cheering, Democrats.

Why was that okay? Was it because WJC obviously didn't MEAN it? He was just saber-rattling, trying to "scare Saddam straight"?

In fact, the Dems shouted to the rooftops that Saddam had WMDs. Didn't they hiss and stomp their feet, too? Gol-ly, Saddam didn't seem to be frightened, more like he smiled tolerantly--or was that a smirk?

When Saddam fell so quickly (to the surprise of the anti-American anti-military Left), didn't Col. Gadhafi of Libya quietly agree to end his nuclear program? Do ya 'spose he'd have done that with Clinton at our helm, sending the FBI to investigate those who bombed the WTC?

I like that we are now projecting strength. Warm and fuzzy doesn't do it for the strongmen in the Middle East. Strength does.

What brought about the Dems' sudden about face? Before 9/11, of course, they could do nothing but attack Bush [remember, they were still counting the votes in Florida till shortly before 9/11 and extremely(!) worried about arsenic in our water]. After 9/11 there was some semblance of solidarity in the U.S. (except for that nutcase Colorado professor, and, apparently, the "Rev." Wright) and we found that the dictators in the region didn't want to face our military. What an odd reaction to Saddam's ouster.

At what point did the Dems forget that THEY had called for Saddam's replacement? When did they suddenly realize it was BUSH that had lied? And why do they now want to surrender?


I CLAVDIVS: I went back to re-read

your last post, since it's really difficult to read with no spacing and the paragraphs not defined...

I may have misunderstood your point... COuld you kindly repost that in a more "user friendly" format..

Thanks.



Fascism
also traditionally employs an exaggerated sense of nationalism and national identity, is usually highly militaristic, racist, anti-semitic, and was largely a phenomenon of the twentieth century. It is anti-intellectual, and builds power by its appeal to those who are easily antogonized by any educated "elite". Historically it also formed power alliances with businesses.

celtic dragon
I am going to go and eat my Sunday dinner.

Have a nice night chasing your tail around and around which is cute for a dog but not for a dragon.

celtic dragon
Perhaps you should go back and read.

Reference the word violence in my post. It didn't start out with violence either, it escalated to violence. It started out with ridicule and isolation.

Once again who doth protest too much? Especially since I wasn't referencing you at all but two other people and one of them wasn't deathstar either.

celtic dragon
One more thing...since it was all of you that went off the ranch over my pointing out the fascist tactics I do believe it is you that doth protest too much!

celtic dragon
Whatever...

I must have been mistaken then when you posted that 7:12pm post with my name on it.

Lolo1
"Historically if you can't win in open debate the fascist tactic relies on ridicule, isolation, and violence to deny a voice to any dissenting opinion."

****************************************

Wrong. Ridiculously wrong, in fact. What you described is pedestrian demagoguery. Fascist tactics would be to threaten you and your family with physical violence, attempt to destroy your place of business or professional standing and then leave you bleeding in an ally somewhere.

Read a little history and find out what the real brownshirts of the SA actually did to people. Being mean in an internet thread doesn't qualify.

Lolo1
I didn't post anything specifically directed at you, until you said that had made an accusation at some "fascist" liberals.

*chuckle*

It's a classic case of "if the shoe fits, wear it."

Hamlet's mother said, "The lady doth protest too much"...

deathstar
Simply put....NO I WILL NOT!


You are trying to divert attention away from my original post to you after you misread it.

If you do not understand fascism and it tactics and broader applications too bad for you.

Historically if you can't win in open debate the fascist tactic relies on ridicule, isolation, and violence to deny a voice to any dissenting opinion.

Good MediocreMark.. But you didn't think

that post was funny did you?

Sounds like you were being very serious.. Ha Ha Ha....

Cabin fever get to you this year???? :-)



Celtic
I agree with you that in terms of Iraq it no longer matters who lied when. I can let go because I didn't have any kids who died there, that helps me to take a more distant, philosophical view.

What does matter, though, are all the lies, secrecies, behind-the-curtain actions that have taken place that would never have been revealed without a sometimes-diligent press and a still functioning legal system. This is different from incompetence, the assumption that one has the moral right to flaunt the constitution, politicize the justice department, wiretap American citizens and abort due process.

celtic-dragon
I am STILL entitled to my own opinion! Are you serious? You liberals haven't taken control yet.

Reread my post...I did not say Bush was a stateaman.I said compared to leftists,he is.

You know,I don't think ANYONE gives a rip what you want.You are just a little person with nothing to do and all day to do it.

You sit and peck out your little zingers ,trying to rile someone.Who cares what you think?

If you want to see the type of folks who are harming this country more than GW Bush,you only need to look in the mirror.

I CLAVDIVS: Well, that's what happens

when your brain is on drugs...

And you still think you make sense???

Good, you just keep right on thinking it.... :-)



Lolo
Never mind, I'm not going to challenge you.

I actually have no desire to embarrass you, sorry.

celtic dragon
No I didn't because I wasn't try to debate any point at all with them.

You need to learn to especially when you are going to come into the middle of something.

Lolo1
"I was not calling the grannies fascist.

I was saying that some of the tactics used by liberals on this thread are indeed fascist and they are.

Funny thing...none you seem to mind when some ignoramus calls Bush, Cheney, or anyone else Hitler or a fascist, but you get all bent we point out when you are behaving in a fascist manner."
*************************************************

That is exactly the point. You accused liberals of being something they aren't to apply pressure in an argument when you couldn't win any other way.

And yes, Godwin's Law applies equally to liberals who jump the shark and go saying that Bush is Hitler. Silly and offensive on either side.

Lolo!: Did you see that??? Ha Ha Ha

MediocreMark is on his high horse telling YOU, "Don't ever tell me what to do again, clear?"


Is that not the funniest thing you've ever read?

Yeah, like what is that reprobate going to do about it??????


Probably one of THE funniest and most ridiculous posts I've read in a long, long, long time...





UGLY IRAQ
ANNE:
I am not an anti-drug or anti-drink snob; but, nevertheless, here in NYC I know plenty of 60's types still toking the dope. These are the Woodstock Generation types that escaped the LSD nuthouses, prison time for usage, and premature death.
If I encounter a 60 ager whose vehement anti-Bush and anti-war invariably they're using. If you missed the drugging and naked parties SORRY maybe you just weren't invited. I smelled the stuff and crashed in.
Time to get real: Iraq is flat terrain; ergo, it is better to maneuver on flat then hilly or mountainous. Northern Pakistan - Obama-stupid - is vertical ups and downs. Darfur - few of the Paris Hilton Follywood Brainiacs know where the place is - is deep desert without any - I mean any - logistical access.
Ugly Iraq is the best place for the military to do its business. If interested study the US Army in Italy - one year from Sicily to Rome and they had another 10 months yard for yard up the Boot of Italy. The US GI owns that country.

Lolo
"I am well aware of what fascism is and means and how it is and was used."

Well then, it shouldn't be difficult to tell me what you think it is.

Rowly
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

Unless, of course, if people like you want to say that other peoples' opinions are sedition.

Now, you may think GW Bush is a great statesman. Fine, and you're welcome to it. I don't agree with you...although I admit I did vote for him both times. That does call my own judgment into question, since I now think he is a disaster...but I digress.

Whoever lied is almost immaterial at this point, except to point out that Bush continued to assert blithe, rosy assurances that things were REALLY SWELL in Iraq, even well after it was horribly obvious that the country had devolved into Hobbesian chaos of almost Biblical proportions.

I am not interested in party politics at this point, and I don't give a rat's @ss about saying someone is "lefty", "liberal", "right wing nut", "moonbat", or anything else of that stripe.

I want competence. I want someone who will actually do the d@mned job, and not willfully spoonfeed soundbite drivel to us like this president and (Rumsfeld!!!!!) others have done.

Sorry Lolo
You didn't answer the question. I would like to know what your definition of fascism is.

deathstar
Let's get one more thing straight.

I don't need any admonishment from you. You are not my parent. It is completely arrogant of you to think so.

I am well aware of what fascism is and means and how it is and was used.

It is you that needs to understand the term so that you may recognize it when it is being applied.

And no, I didn't say you were fascist, I said two other posters here were using fascist tactics against another poster. Like my pointing it out is going to stop it anyway.

Tell me, Lolo
How do you define a "fascist manner"?

I'm curious.

Also, I'll ask again - do you actually know what Fascism is?

deathstar
It is the practice or tactic of fascism.

Sorry if it makes your head hurt dear.

celtic dragon
Did you read all of the posts?

I was not calling the grannies fascist.

I was saying that some of the tactics used by liberals on this thread are indeed fascist and they are.

Funny thing...none you seem to mind when some ignoramus calls Bush, Cheney, or anyone else Hitler or a fascist, but you get all bent we point out when you are behaving in a fascist manner.

Celtic said
"The first person who brings accusations of fascism into an argument is usually the loser."

Sorry, Lolo, I thnk that's you: your post of 6:03 said,

"What wrightsrong52 and MellorSJ2 are doing is the simple practice of fascism".

This is making my head hurt.

Lolo1 and Anne
I'm not refuting today. It's Sunday, a day of rest,
ridicule and demeaning!

ModMark
Do not ever post to me again.

I'm confused
Anne seems to think I called somebody a fascist.

did anybody else mis-interpret my admonishment to Lolo to look up the meaning of the word before using it to describe non-conservative posters?

Didn't think so.


deathstar
I have done research, have you?

Have you listened to the military?

Have you listened to the families of the military?

Have you listened to what Osama has had to say about Nam?

That is the last time I will try and explain anything to you since you lack reading comprehension.

celtic-dragon & deathstar
The war has been a drag.Lasted much longer than was anticipated.If congress was lied to,it was not GW Bush who did the lying.

Speaking of GW Bush...he has done much less harm than the leftist in this country who are against EVERYTHING positive that is presented.

The Leftist Democrat Party and their egg-sucking lapdogs,the mainstream media are all anti-American.

GW Bush has disappointed me in many ways,especially on illegal immigrating and always turning the other cheek to the leftists,but he is a great statesman compared to many of his accusers.


Now,do you want to know how I REALLY feel?

lolo1
You dropped the "F" bomb! You get the red card

(remember now 1 for and and then 1 for lolo)

It's
got to be the drug fog, still in fantasy land
where everyone in the world is a flower child, if we'd only just put a daisy in a rifle barrle why there's be peace, peace, wonderful peace.
What a bunch of sanctimonious poo, I agree,
if these grannie's want to enlist so badly, put them through it, every bit of it for the whole
six weeks, and no early outs.
I'm a Grammie, and one of mine is enlisted, following two uncles and Granpa's footsteps.
And I'm VERY proud of him. This argument that
those of us who have the brains to understand
we are in a WAR not of our choosing and for the most part have been pretty careful about how we fight it is specious. There is no moral superiority in surrender, in slavery, in losing
your heritage and culture. These people want us
to submit or die, what part of that equation don't you superior beings from Hippieland understand. No, I think you do understand but
you were narcissitic cowards 40 years ago and are
fighting for justification of your past actions by this return to spitting on our military again.
You think maybe, if you justify your Hanoi Jane
wannabee behavior, you will win respect. Ain't gonna happen.

deathstar: WOW! Now that's witty!
AND, Celtic-dragon, Galen points out that when a leftist calls you a fascist, it pretty much means they've lost the argument.

Interesting, I've found that to be true.. :-)


Anne
by we we mean me myself and I.

Bad Nazi and fascist analogies...
See here for Godwin's Law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

The first person who brings accusations of fascism into an argument is usually the loser.

Geez, Anne,
you're so dumb.

Celtic is right
It's not the cynical, self-serving, self-aggrandizing people in power who do the most harm, it's the gullible, slogan-waving, life-is-a-Tom-Clancy-novel people who are so happy to beleive them, and trust them like children.

deathstar: What? "Bull. Leftist can

not tolerate dissent from their points."

Who are you trying to kid??? Take a peek at the posts above that you. mallor and IQ52 posted...

You guys are out of control... Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha



Savage99
Good to see you!

School, sadly, is still on delay while some financial aid things are worked out.

I have new stuff up at my blog, and more to come. Anybody interested in the state of affairs of the civilian/military relationship after Rumsfeld may want to check it out. Click on my name.

ROG
"Bull. Leftist can not tolerate dissent from their points. "

Are you high? who wrote this stupid column in the first place, a "leftie"?

Don't think so.

Do you and Lolo get your information from the same source - I didn't finish your post, but if you are also calling protest a "fascist" practice, maybe you ought to join a book club with Lo.

Lolo, Lolo, Lolo
"the terrorists used that kind of dissent to recruit more to fight which of course prolongs the war and costs more lives."

God, please read more!!

Trust me, a bunch of grannies standing on a street corner has not recruited a single terrorist. This is not what is making Sunnis and Shias fight each other, I know you don't want to believe that, but I swear it's true.

Also, Sunnis and Shias are not going to float in on our beaches to take over our government.

Lolo, you need to do a little research!



No, Leftist can not tolerate dissent
"deathstar writes:"
Well, Rowley
I always feel proud of America because it not only tolerates, if not welcomes, dissent, but I think it is strong enough to handle it.

Sorry you don't feel the same.""

Bull. Leftist can not tolerate dissent from their points. They scream and cry and demand Government action to shut down anyone who dares disagrees with them. Not only are the leftist liars they are crybabies. Leftist violently shout down college speakers with whom they disagree. Leftist called for Don Imus's head for a stupid remark yet defend the vilest anti-Semitism from Al Sharpton, Jeremiah Wright and others.

Leftist generally lie about that too. Perhaps they are suffering PTSD from dodging the sniper fire with Miss Hillary.

And "deathstar writes again:""there are always a sizeable group that love war."

I would not mind starting one here. There is a target rich enviornment.

Have a nice day.



Rowly
"Such discouraging words and behavior encourages the enemy to keep fighting even harder because they see people back home do not support their evdeavor.

Anything that aids the enemy in a war is treason,in my mind."


*************************************

Shall we charge the opinion pollsters as well, along with the 65% of the American people who think this has become a waste of time? So many traitors, and so few bullets, eh?

You remind me of the saying that "patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels."

I actually was for the war from the beginning. Then I saw how we, as a country were manipulated. As a cynical, Hobbesian realist, I do not think that things would go well if we precipitously left Iraq, but I don't want to hang around for 100 years keeping the savages from butchering each other. Sooner or later, they will have their little religious civil war. I would rather we install a benign despot...or split the country in three and call it a day.

Regardless, fighting a war for no good purpose is a waste of blood and treasure. We could end this thing...but the President is stuck on his preposterous notion the "all peoples' hearts desire freedom".

Uh, no.

People desire wealth, respect, and revenge against anyone who keeps them from getting the first two.

Lolo1
You missed the point of my story, which was that even though the women in black were not protesting the war, but making a stand for the larger issue of peace everywhere, the village conservatives just couldn't accept that it wasn't traitorous and un-american.

when their group leader said, "They stand for everything I'm against", we had a huge laugh, because what he was saying was that he was against peace.


celtic-dragon
long time, no see. How is school coming?

Pistol

Rowley
"Our country cannot wage a war without congress' approval."

But if congress is lied to, as it was under the Johnson administration and more recently, by the Bush administration, I would hope you would love your country enough to point it out and object.

Bush's war has hurt this country in a way that may not be repaired. It's amazing to me that you think so little of America that you would discourage anyone from trying to do the right thing.

Lolo 1
Oh,no. Someone said those very words the other day and attributed them to Barnum.Someone corrected them saying it wasn't him.

I looked it up and sure enough,it wasn't him.I had heard it as long as I can remember.You learn something new every day,even on these threads.

deathstar
I cannot speak for other posters but I might be able to clarify for you. I personally am undecided as to whether they are traitors or not. Those that do consider them traitors, do so because, the terrorists used that kind of dissent to recruit more to fight which of course prolongs the war and costs more lives.

There are quite a few ways to break the law protesting. My bet is that they were either on private property, or failed to get a permit. They have the right to protest but their rights end where another begins. They cannot stop people in the course of their protesting from conducting their daily lives.

As to the counter protesters to the women in black, they too have the same rights. As I said they must be prepared for all of the consequences that go with what they are doing, and that also includes the counter protesters as well.

Anne
I think what you really need is a transfusion of actual wit.

You're just not funny, or quick -- face it.

Lolo1
You said, "What wrightsrong52 and MellorSJ2 are doing is the simple practice of fascism."

Here's a little tip, as a favor - before you use words like "fascism" you might actually look up the meaning.

Your sentence doesn't make any sense. What, exactly, is it that you think "fascism" is?

Isn't that special
We had a rather short, rotund, 60's retread
chortling in the paper about how she was reliving
her 60's anti war treachery a few years ago, right after the war started. It's a lot of reliving the glory day's of dope, sex and riots we were forced to witness some 40 years ago.
I'm a grammie, and one of mine is enlisted and
I wouldn't hesitate to get in their faces.
I am so sick of these nincompoops getting their prolonged 15 minutes of fame every time they have a chance. They are despicable toads.
They do NOT care one bit for our military; they
are mind numbed robots, don't have an ounce of critical thinking abilities or patriotism.
I wish they had been allowed to enlist, call their bluffs and then when the old bags get to boot camp, give them the toughest workout possible, and tape it and put it on the internet.

JZ2745
Are you actually claiming that anyone who objects to the war or the President is a traitor??

Y'know, a bunch of bearded idiots in a cave in Pakistan can't really hurt this country. They can get lucky and kill some of us, but the Republic will endure.

It's people like you that scare me. We are the ones that can destroy liberal democracy...not the Islamist wack jobs.

Animal Girl wrote
"What law was it that the grannies were breaking, exactly?"

The Grabar law against free speech.

I don't know what is wrong
with Mary Grabar that she can't figure out the meaning of a simple sign. It sort of keeps any kind of meaningful discussion nailed to the floor, no?

Lolo1
"Just as they have a right to disagree that same right extends to those who disagree with them."

But, Lo, several conservative posters called these women "traitors" for being against the war. That is not exactly the same thing as saying that they have a right to disagree. If they are traitors, then by definition you are saying they have no rights.

There is a group of women who stand on a local street corner every Friday who do not carry signs, never mention the war or any other political issue. They are called "The women in Black", and a carrying on a tradition started in Israel (no doubt by the same kind of traitorous grannies that TH conservatives despise) and basically are making an unworded statement about world peace.

This upset the town conservatives so much that they started lining up against the opposite corner, wearing red, white and blue clothing and waving flags. At one point, a few of them crossed the street and were so threatening that the police were called (I was there).

when the local newspaper did a story, one of the red-white-and blue- guys said, "they stand for everything we're against!!"

I think this is such an illustrative event of the kind of reactionary, emotional, symbolic thinking that goes on in conservative circles...if it is suitable for a hallmark card, it must be Truth (with a capital T.)

Lolo!: You're right..Pretty funny, huh?

We know, because he's proven it, that wrightsrong52 posts his IQ in his moniker, and MellorSJ2 is just your run of the mill loser...

How about a real challenge here?

Oooops, they're loopy, limited, liberals... No chance of a challenge here now, is there?





Polly
She never ever intended to enlist and it is an empty threat besides and she knows it.

She knows full well that she, along with the other grannies, would not make the cut. So they can say I tried, but reality is they never had to. It's like playing roulette with a revolver that not only has no bullets but the bullets aren't even made anymore.

They learned that kind of subterfuge and showmanship from PT Barnum. They forgot what else he taught though...."There's a sucker born every minute!"

I CLAVDIVS writes: "DRUGGED-UP GRANNIES"


I am just about your age, but never amidst the protest people..."

And, not only was I never stoned, I never once even tried marijuana... (UNlike that lying sack, clinton who claims that he tried it, but never inhaled... ha ha ah) I never even tried it.

I guess that's why I have no idea what your point might be.


Anne
What wrightsrong52 and MellorSJ2 are doing is the simple practice of fascism.

Rather than refute they ridicule and demean in hopes you will run home crying and quit posting. They tried that practice one on one and it didn't work so now they are forming a gang in hopes that will work.

Susaninga
I read your comment, "I did have an enlistment form with me and fully intended to enlist," and I'm waiting to hear what in the world changed your mind about enlisting.

Ummm? Who could "we" be?
.

DRUGGED-UP GRANNIES
I am 61 so I was there amidst the protest people and after getting stoned the first time started to chase hippie broads with drugs 24/7. I was a marijuana addict.
None are discussing the drug usage then and the drug usage now inside the anti-war left!
Seniors getting stoned on perscription meds are still drug heads getting stoned - same thoughts in the squash.

PS: drink and drug free 1985

Rowly
You're right, I'm sure it's not intentional.

deathstar
There is a right way and wrong way to do everything. There is a season and a time for everything. It has been proven over and over again that the enemy watches this behavior and uses it to their advantage.

These women put themselves up for public display therefore they get all that goes with it...including the merits of their protest, the consequences of their protest, and yes the criticism of their protest.

Just as they have a right to disagree that same right extends to those who disagree with them.

Reality is the protesters are only hamstringing the effort of what they what to end. More protesting, means more terrorist recruitment, which means more involvement in the war.

wrightsrong52 & Deathstar
Our country cannot wage a war without congress' approval. If you feel good speaking out or demonstrating in front of cameras,for the enemy to observe,have at it. No one will stop you. Free country and all that.

If your son or daughter was in the heat of battle,would you feel the same?

Anne
We are a cult, my dear. We really like getting slapped around.

lolo1
ok my man! be nice.

Sorry, Anne. You're just a...
...random number generator.

We plan to play Anne Bingo. After we list your responses, each person gets a card, and the first person to get 7 out of 10 responses, as determined by their card, wins.

You are irrelevant. Except as a source and butt of jokes.

In any post-industrial civilization
there are always a sizeable group that love war. They are thrilled by parades and speeches, body counts, (especially if they are somebody else's) and the money that is to be made, which is alot, alot! The love of war and death will always be couched in sentimentality, a level of hysteria, fear-mongering (Iraq is going to drop a nuke on us) and greed.

wrightsrong52
I demand in the name of Affirmative Action that you catalog my posts as well. We are an Equal Opportunity nation after all!


You are too funny wrightsrong52! I never had any idea that Anne got to you that much, but thanks for the head's up!

Wrightswrong
Anne is pretty famous. I'll let you guess for yourself exactly what it is she is famous for.

Somebody accused her of writing for Ann Coulter?
Seems like a little lesson in sarcasm would go a long way!

correction,
sorry that you, Anne, Mary Grabar and others don't think America can handle it.


Well, Rowley
Then, according to your reasoning, any leader could wage war for any reason, good or bad, and it would be immoral for citizens to oppose it. This would have been true for any German who opposed the invasion of Poland, any Japanese who thought the rape of Nanking was immoral, any Serbian who objected to the Sarajevo massacre, any Sudanese who speaks out against the Janjaweed. And, indeed, they certainly would have been considered traitors by those in power, so I guess your point of view isn't singular.

I always feel proud of America because it not only tolerates, if not welcomes, dissent, but I think it is strong enough to handle it.

Sorry you don't feel the same.

wrightsrong52
Incompetence is just that.If done on purpose,I would agree it would be.

wrightsrong52 writes: "Were starting to

catalog her repertoire."

THAT IS SOOOO COOOOL! :-)

I never thought that I would be that noteworthy that "we" (who or whatever "we" is) would bother to pay attention, much less "catalog" my responses..

And here, all this time I thought the loony left was just kidding when they accused me of working for Th, or being one of Ann Coulter's writers.


I'm taking a bow... Thank you... thank you very much...



Left over old hippies
Being conflicted I am either glad to see these left over old hippie leftist acting the fool or irritated. Glad that they are reminding me to hate them all the more, starting in 1968. I am irritated that I didn't whip more of the Leftist hippie fools during our scuffles on campus 1969-72. I was still guided by my parents’ prohibition against hitting girls then.

I am as old as most of those grannies. Perhaps I can make up for lost time and past mistakes. God Bless our service people and damn the leftist hippie fools to the lowest reaches of Hell.

Have a nice day.

Rowly
Doesn't civilian incompetence in the application of the military aid the enemy?

Wouldn't you then have to consider those individuals
traitors too?

Death Star
Now these guys are picking on Grandma's who voice their opinion!

Anne is known as the "nursing home drama queen" to pretty much everyone she disagrees with. That will soon be the whole world. She has about 10 basic comments she repeats, OVER AND OVER again.

Visit the Chapman article and you can see why she's had only one post over there all day. Were starting to catalog her repertoire.

Traitors,Inc.
Of course I am no authority on traitors or anything,but I know what I beleive.

We have men and women in harm's way,serving their country.We have communications that allow the enemy to see and hear any dissention citizens of this country say and do.

Such discouraging words and behavior encourages the enemy to keep fighting even harder because they see people back home do not support their evdeavor.

Anything that aids the enemy in a war is treason,in my mind.

Susaninga
I think Anne fights the war from her computer. It's safer, and certainly easier.

You must be one of those "traitors' JZ2745 was referring to, speech is only free if you're a conservative or if you don't say anything unpopular.

People don't like to be encouraged to think for themselves, they like to be told what to think. Otherwise, you're a "traitor".

JZ2745
You said, ""The Grannies" and other traitors " and in fact referred to these demonstrators several times as "traitors".

It seems that you define people who oppose the war as "traitors", or is it that you define anyone who speaks out, particularly in disagreement with you, as a "traitor"?

When conservatives speak out against McCain, are they "traitors"?

I'm sure you have a well-thought-out, coherent explanation - or not. Just curious.




USMC Lt
It's a good one, indeed. THanks for posting it.

Whenever I go to DC, I always make a visit to Arlington and the Tomb of the Unknown for the last changing of the guard for the day, ending just a bit before sunset. It is a most awesome thing.

USMC Lt.
Thank you very much for that last post.

I printed it for my daughter to keep and she thanks you as well.

Next stop is emailing it to everyone I know.

Motley Crue
They need a b-i-g duffel bag.I can see it now,filled with ..Ben Gay, denture creme,blue dye,corn remover,arthritis meds,Metamucil,aspirin,Depends,cholosterol meds,high blood pressure meds,insulin needles,hearing aid batteries,etc.

Special underwear:girdle,support stockings and last but certainly not least,a good support bra.Don't want one to get caught in her fly!

susaninga: First of all, every single

soldier who is in the ME, and who has BEEN in the ME, was there because he/she had VOLUNTEERED to serve.

These soldiers not only VOLUNTEERED, but they are VOLUNTEERING to return for second and third tours.......

AND, we also have soldiers who have been injured... amputees... who have VOLUNTEERED to return...


Getting the picture here?????

I don't think there is ONE SINGLE American who is "HAPPY" about our troops being in the ME, but life is full of realities that we're not happy about.


What a truly stupid comment, "... why all of you 'brave' warriors who are sitting in your homes posting on blogs aren't going over to fight for whatever you think our soldiers are killing and dying for. Put down your mouse and go."


It might be helpful if you remember the phrases, "Death to America" and "Wipe America off the face of the earth."


That's why we're still there!!!!!!!!






Motley Crue
Good Morning to you as well....at least what little is left of morning!

Motley
You're probably right. I pray that you're wrong. But I fear you're right.

I wonder what Susaninga will say in response to your post. I wonder what she will come up with to try to prove her patriotism.

These people are sick.

Curtal. You waste your time trying
to reason with a liberal. Victory, for someone like Susaninga, would be a young American soldier on his knees getting his head chopped off by an AQ terrorist.

Motley and Lolo
Y'all interested in chatting?

Susaninga
What damaged lives?

Those soldiers who are over there volunteered, knowing full well they could see combat.

Secondly, many of them have reenlisted in order to go back.

The troop morale is high, and in instances where it is low, it is mostly due to the exposure of constant, unrelenting negativism and cowardice on the part of people like yourselves.

Ask the Iraqis about damaged lives. Ask them how many lives were damaged under Saddam Hussein.

Most will tell you that they are thankful we removed him and ended his reign of terror for the Iraqi people.

But you don't like that kind of information, do you? You seem solidly convinced that everything we do is wrong and the military should never be used. Well, sorry to burst your pie in the sky, pollyanna bubble, but welcome to reality. Wars happen, they have since the dawn of time, and you can either win, or give up and let yourself be conquered. What's it gonna be , Susaninga? Eventual death? Or victory?

Greetings, Lolo1, m'dear.
:-)

Reread what I wrote Dave
The article stated that our BANNER said Send us not our grandchildren-and instead of focusing on the immoral and illegal war, Mary goes after grammar and punctuation. And she might have a point if we indeed had that banner, but we didn't. Look again Dave-no
BANNER with those words. The video title has those words, but no banner.

Meanwhile, in the time it took to write this we spent 1 million dollars on this war, halliburton, KBR, Blackwater, and others of their ilk have increased their profits, and more people have been damaged by the ravages of war. We (taxpayers) are spending $500,000 a minute on the Iraq invasion/occupation. If you don't care about damaged lives maybe you care about squandered money.

Greetings, Anne m'dear. CF, YL, and
all other conservatives who've taken time out from their daily ritual to welcome the liberal trolls and troglodytes that have graced us with their presence. I do remember the gas chamber, CF, and having to remove the gas mask while inside. I can imagine the howls of protest and the whining that would ensue were these grannies made to endure that process, not to mention the mascara that would be ruined. They'd have to remove their dentures as well. Methinks those 60s hippy types are more bark than bite.

Oh, and Susaninga. Explain the difference between "Send Us Not our grandchildren" and "Take Us Not our grandchildren?" Same difference, it seems to me.

Curtal Friar
Good Morning to you as well!!!

Curtal Friar
I don't think they last a day let alone a week!

Their idea of difficult is protesting without a permit and impeding the rights of others.

Convenient how they forget with their childish logic who gave them that right.

These idiots think if we have no military then we have no war. I know three year olds that exhibit better logic.

Lolo
A hearty good morning to you!

Hello
A hearty good morning to Motley and Anne

susaninga
Another stupid straw man argument and post.

So because I am not physically capable of going to Iraq I cannot support the war?

If I were physically capable and did go you want to me that you wouldn't still be protesting the war with some such nonsense as "Not in Our Name!"?


Riiiggght.........!!!!!

Two more grannies
... and they'd have the makings of a calendar.

The video answers "animalgirl's" question: the protesters were arrested because they refused to leave private property. Pick a public park next time.

And for susaninga: served my country in uniform for 20 years. Served in Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom, before retirement. Have shipmates and colleagues who died in Iraq, Afghanistan -- and the Pentagon, on 9/11.

For those bravely making erroneous assumptions about posters they've never met who disagree with them.

Motley
I don't think they'd last a week. Hell, I think they should issue them their gas masks and send them through the "gas chamber" we all had to go through that was filled with tear gas so they could ensure their masks were functional and on properly. I would love to see their faces when the drill sergeant tells them to take their masks off.

Motley: But what a terrific visual!!!
.

I say "draft 'em." Put the old biddies
in a set of fatigues and give 'em six weeks of basic training. First order of business should be to shave their heads and get rid of that blue hair, then march them around the barracks a few times at 5AM each morning. Ah, but then again, keeping them supplied with "Depends" would be cost prohibitive. And for what? Just for the fun of seeing them blow their dentures the minute a weapon is pointed their way? No. I guess it would be cheaper to give them a course in English and let them picket their little hearts out.

susaninga....
Put down your self-righteous cool aid and your 'bong' filled with the self-serving delusional smoke screen.

I served this country in a far less 'popular' war than Iraq ...it was called VietNam ...maybe you remember it ..you were probably among those marching in protests in the USA streets back then ....and perhaps among those welcoming us back home by spitting on our soldiers faces that returned home.

Hey, Susaninga
I don't know which video you were watching, but the very first sign shown uo close says "send us NOT our grandchildren."

These grandmas did nor get runover by a tank - they got runover by a reindeer.

for tru arnston
tru arntson,

It's too bad I have to follow you all over Townhall, flagging every one of your posts as offensive, and complaining to the moderator.

You never have anything to offer except flaming and personal attacks.

So you are going to be kicked off of here, if I can swing it.

Please correct "errors" in this article
Mary-not sure where you got your info for this article, but we were not out in 2 hours, we were in the Fulton County jail for 10 hours, and received thanks from the guards for doing what we did-many had friends and family who had served, and and come home (or not) damaged physically and mentally from what they had experienced. One of the guards asked us where we were 2 years ago before he had to go to Iraq, and we replied "on the streets with protest signs, but to no avail". Being thanked for what we did by a prison guard who had served in Iraq was the greatest praise of all.

Where did you see a banner that said: Send Us Not Our Grandchildren? The 2 that I see in the video say: "Stop Sending Our Children to Iraq"
and
Take Us
Not
Our Grandchildren

If you are going to pass yourself off as a journalist you should check your "facts" before you publish them.

And to those bravely commenting on this blog:


I did have an enlistment form with me and fully intended to enlist. I just wonder why all of you "brave" warriors who are sitting in your homes posting on blogs aren't going over to fight for whatever you think our soldiers are killing and dying for. Put down your mouse and go.

Lolo1 & YLG: But you should see what tru

posted on Giles' thread....

Apparently he's of the ilk:

"What's good for me is NOT good for thee..."


Oh yeah, I forgot.. typical of the limited libs....







What will we do?
...when all the old hippies are dead and gone? How will we ever survive?

animalgirl
Did you read the column?

Dr. Grabar expressly points out the "only under a CIVIL government is civil disobedience possible," something the late, great Dr. King thoroughly espoused and practiced. If anything, this column reminded me of his dedication to bring equality to all, while respecting the rule of law.

Just as an aside, this column isn't about Dr. King. Try reading it before jumping to an erroneous conclusion.

Last Straw
So it's the "little people" they're after is it? Well enough I say, the Leprechaun’s Union will hear of this!

Proves the old adage ...
There's no fool like an old fool!

BTW
What law was it that the grannies were breaking, exactly?

I know that conservatives aren't big fans of freedom of speech, but I thought peaceful protests were still legal in this country.

From reading these posts, it seems like the readers on this site desperately wish we were more like China, and they could more easily dispose of the people they don't like.

Lolo1
I agree, but that post of his/hers was such an easy mark.....

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Hope your day is going great!

;-)

MLK
Did you intentionally write your column about the worthlessness of civil disobedience so close to the 40 anniversary of Dr. King's assassination? Are you trying to mock King, but don't want to come out and do it directly?

Or are you really so detached from the real world that you didn't realize the very major anniversary this week?

Naw, tru Arntson
If we're not occupied on Sunday listening to a fundamentalist preaching hate of other races, creeds and colors; real conservatives are way too busy scheming and dreaming of more ways to extract additional taxes from the little people and divert them to conglomerates, text messaging about which foreign country we can occupy and confiscate their oil, or figuring out which pristine wildlife habitat is the most likely candidate for a strip mall development.

Anne and YLG
tru Arnston is doing what liberals do best!

He is attempting to shut down free speech by deeming it offensive then proceeding to ridicule. It is a common tactic used. I find that offensive there fore never say it again!!!!

It is a fascist tactic and it is a pity we can't apply it in reverse.

Taft
Agree--there are some encouraging signs. I would credit the Bush Administration for its efforts, and do believe they would prefer to avert a military operation. It could be credibly said that in some ways, we are already at war with Iran.
Also agree that we should not trust too much, or 'trust but verify'. That goes for more than just "neocons", which is a terms I admit that I don't fully understand.

tru Arntson
Since you took the time to read every single post, you do not have better things to do, either.

If the "increasingly more libelous and incendiary pieces of venom" bother you so much, feel free to find a place more suitable to your fine sensibilities, like DailyKos, or du.com.



Hey Arntson:Okay, WHO wrote that for you

C'mon, you can tell us....

Did you get it at Kos or huffy-puffy?


tru Arnston
Please report to such sterling web logs as the Huffington Post, the Daily Kos and the Democrat Underground. Spend a moment if you would perusing the "nasty, ignorant, hate-spew posted therein. Please report back with your findings, the rest of us vile hateful types need to know how it is really done.

I've read every single post
on this thread today.

So glad to see that conservatives are still finding meaning to their lives by way of their nasty, ignorant, hate-spew!

What I see is posters trying to outdo each other by writing increasingly more libelous and incendiary pieces of venom, which must be a true reflection of who you are and a clear picture of what the conservative movement consists of.

Are you so bankrupt of ideas and original thoughts that all you can do is spend your sundays, which most of you seem to think are supposed to mean something special, to generate this fever of hate?

what it shows is that all TH is about is attacking others, which you seem to need to do because you don't have much interest in what you pretend you stand for.

Frankie
It would be a laugh riot if military recruitment officials, with news cameras following, arrived at the grannies' doors with enlistment forms in hand. "Here to fulfill your request, Ma'am."

Can you say, "BACKPEDAL, BACKPEDAL!!"?

On the other hand, it would be an excellent opportunity for The Ten to further display their "bravery."

Polly
In 1990 obl warned of the danger that the murderous tyrant in Iraq, saddam, posed to Saudi Arabia. Besides this there is a lot of evidence on the subject. Saddam was terrified by AQ. The government can listen to any of my boring conversations or read what I say here. Facts are I love this country and I'll bet so do those Grannies.

Taft
How do you know that bin Laden hated Saddam? Just curious.

Do you speak with him occasionally? Are you one of the people enraged by government's ability to eavesdrop on conversations between U.S. citizens and terrorists?

Btw
I don't know what happens, but every time I see a post like Pirates, I'm going to flag them.

SunThe1
You present a very good response and I respect your views. I think I am paying close attention to the Iran/Iraq/US interplay. Lets just not be quite so trusting of these noecons. One more thing, news from Iran has had promising developments.

It was not a demonstration
against the war. It was a demonstration of the grannies deep sense of social justice. It was a display of their great hearts.

It is a sign of the end when narcissism pervades even the aged.

taft
You talk like the evil neocons are drooling over the prospect of war with iran.
I reckon that if you paid much attention you'd see considerable effort going into trying to deter that possibility. The sad fact is that by ourselves, we may not be able to exert quite enough pressure on Iran to change the course of what they're doing.
Your view is also kind of one-sided in implying that we decide on war 'cause we just somehow WANT to. With your view, the generals would not have gone early to Gettysburg to secure the high ground for a battle they figured was coming. They would have just waited I guess.

tadd peake
Good point about 'send".
It would seem some truly are stuck in the 60's and don't realize that our troops are voluntary nowadays. Early on, I heard Cindy Sheehan railing that her son should have gone to Canada. Poor thing.
Maybe some drug concoction froze them in time.

Frank
Agree.

I seem to recall the "human shields" who took themselves over there early on, and they lasted about a day before they packed it in.
I think it was too dusty for them or something along those lines. Oh, and they weren't in front of the cameras.

Dan
The protesters are usually against the Iraq war, and for good reason. I haven't seen many against Afghanistan. The people there actually want us there.

I could see your side being angry with some of the nutty antics of Pink Left, but protesting a war like Iraq is a fundamental right. The scary thing is were teetering on a war, yes, yet another one, in Iran. One of which will mean our troops in Iraq will be put at considerable risk, and will be the brain child of neocons.

Grannies
I think we should make special provision to send them to Iraq. Give them 80 lbs of gear to tote on their back, a rifle, and send them to patrol the streets of Sadar City. Let them form a squad and speak with the radicals. Make sure we include a burka so they won't be raped and murdered, and teach them how to recite the Koran.

Frank

For Their Efforts
War protesters complain that our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan have destroyed our image in the world community (whatever that is). Given the antics of the grannies et al, it is more likely that their buffoonery is throwing our image to the dogs.

Actually the good grannies were not thrown under the tank, they were thrown in the clink.

Behead the Grannys...

No, I wouldn't approve of it either -- but in most other countries (including all of the MidEast) these women would simply be executed.

Perhaps we need to think about defending our country from all enemies, internal as well as external.

Dr. Grabar
Thanks for a great start to my Sunday morning. One thing that stands out in your article is "...only under a civil government is civil disobedience possible." Would that our citizens remember that....

I can only hope that Robert reads this. Perhaps he will understand why punctuation is so important.

Doc
Free speech is a wonderful right, especially for a navy vet!

Taft
That’s ok, Jessie is a Navy UDT veteran he has more than earned that rightfor free speech.
We should thank God for the mothers and fathers that have paid the ultimate price of their sons and daughters too keep this nation free.

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean
Write in a name folks, it is still a free country! Well, until McQuack comes up with more ideals on how to kill free speech.

Mass dementia?
I wonder if dementia in grannies is contagious. That may explain a lot about Code Pink and the Million (actually about 10,000 on a good day) Mom March.

-Ray

JZ2745
Do you really think Bin Laden doesn't want our kids there? He hated Saddam and was happy to see an opportunity for his cracked nut cases to go in set up a true Islamic country. Problem was, Iraqis hated them as much as the rest of the world.

The grannies should talk to Amanda Knox
Amanda Knox, an ordinary American college student who went to Italy to study, is in jail for a YEAR on the mere suspicion of having something to do with her roommate's murder.

Two hours? That's nothing. I'm sure if Amanda had talked to these grandmothers before going to Italy, they would have filled her head with talk of how fascist our system of government is and how wonderful things are in Europe.

How Embarrassing
These crazy old women need to be reminded that their grandchildren are adults who have chosen to enter a volunteer military force. And God bless them for doing so. How embarrassing for the soldiers that their grandmothers are public spectacles who are incapable of constructing a cogent sentence.

Yes, send them
This reminds me of the leftover sentiment from the 60's that if 'mothers refused to send their sons to war, war would end'.
Or something brilliant like that.

I wonder what these grannies would say to the grannies 'over there' who are teaching their little darlings to hate America, hate jews, and kill them all. ME toddlers who are learning that it's good to bash in the skull of a jew, that it's good to strap a bomb on themselves and go blow themselves up in a peaceful marketplace.

I'm glad they got out in time to have their hair done.

When you
are born, your brain(by genetic design) is destined to reach a certain size.- I refer to it as a bucket.
As you go through life, that "bucket" fills up by about age 60 or so.
When you fill a bucket full and walk lifes roads, the contents in that "bucket" begin to slosh out.

These old grannies have lost a lot of knowledge by sloshing a full bucket.

The bridge club became bored
and decided to change the game plan. Enough with the yearly European vacations and trips to islands- they want to show their "courage"! Maybe the pampered, stupid ladies should go through basic and spend some time in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Iraq’s Forces Quit Basra Fight?

More Than 1,000 in Iraq’s Forces Quit Basra Fight

How can a centralize government rule the country if the police and military will not enforce laws against their tribe?

NYT-More than 1,000 Iraqi soldiers and policemen either refused to fight or simply abandoned their posts during the inconclusive assault against Shiite militias in Basra last week, a senior Iraqi government official said Thursday. Iraqi military officials said the group included dozens of officers, including at least two senior field commanders in the battle.

The desertions in the heat of a major battle cast fresh doubt on the effectiveness of the American-trained Iraqi security forces. The White House has conditioned further withdrawals of American troops on the readiness of the Iraqi military and police.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/more-than-1000-in- iraq%e2%80%99s-forces-quit-basra-fight


"Send" us?
It's hard understanding their words, let alone their grammar.

If "Send ... not our grandchildren," is a war protest, it sounds like they hadn't heard that the U.S. ceased the draft in 1973, or thereabouts. Maybe they just don't watch TV.

Not a Tank
Grandma got run over by a reindeer
Walking home from our house Christmas eve.
You can say there's no such thing as Santa,
But as for me and Grandpa, we believe.


She'd been drinking too much eggnog,
And we'd begged her not to go.
But she'd left her medication,
So she stumbled out the door into the snow.


When they found her Christmas morning,
At the scene of the attack.
There were hoof prints on her forehead,
And incriminating Claus marks on her back.



Grandma got run over by a reindeer,
Walking' home from our house Christmas eve.
You can say there's no such thing as Santa,
But as for me and Grandpa, we believe.



Now were all so proud of Grandpa,
He's been taking this so well.
See him in there watching football,
Drinking' beer and playing cards with cousin Belle.


It's not Christmas without Grandma.
All the family's dressed in black.

And we just can't help but wonder:
Should we open up her gifts or send them back?



Grandma got run over by a reindeer,
Walking home from our house Christmas eve.
You can say there's no such thing as Santa,
But as for me and Grandpa, we believe.



Now the goose is on the table
And the pudding made of fig.
And a blue and silver candle,
That would just have matched the hair in Grandma's wig.


I've warned all my friends and neighbors.
Better watch out for yourselves.
They should never give a license,
To a man who drives a sleigh and plays with elves.



Grandma got run over by a reindeer,
Walking' home from our house, Christmas eve.
You can say there's no such thing as Santa,
But as for me and Grandpa, we believe.

A Good Point
Jesse Ventura had this to way about Iraq the other day on Larry King, "You know a war is worth fighting for, if you're willing to have your own children die."

Grabar, An Inspirational Article
Another "What" from TH. Grabar, you helped spread the word and fame of the grannies. If we could open the fabulous "earnings" of Hillary and Bill perhaps that could make a little difference. Hitlary, use some of your ill-earned money and buy up the mortgages of people in debt (people who want it that way) and burn them. $109 million? Perhaps it is much more if we really knew what these two crooks were up to.

They should have stayed in jail
AT LEAST overnight to give them a real taste of what it's like.

They have NO CLUE as to the threat we face from the IslamoFacists and probably don't really want to know.
They probably get their news from the lying MSM who loves to portray the U.S. as the worlds bully and everything we do is wrong.

Of course we know that the MSM will never tell the truth about what's going on in the Middle East as it goes agaisnt their agenda of we're wrong and the IslamoFacists are right and only defending their homeland(Iraq, which is NOT where most of them are from) against the "EVIL AGGRESSER" who's trying to "dominate and control them."

"The Grannies" and other traitors
If one of my grandchildren were off fighting for our country I would do more than take the bottled water from these idiots. I might be inclined to have a little war of my own right here at home.

Bin Laden loves these "grannies". He laughs when he sees our home-grown traitors at work. It's because of our soldiers in Iraq and other places around the world that he is living in a cave, if he is even alive.

A grandparent can influence and love a child in ways that a parent can not. It's serious business. If these women were being grandmothers they would have no time to entertain the people who want to kill us.
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