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Sunday, February 17, 2008
Mary Grabar :: Townhall.com Columnist
Huckabee and Modern-Day Clarence Darrows: Inheriting the Wind on Evolution
by Mary Grabar
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             Books attacking religion, particularly Christianity, have earned quite a bit of money recently for publishers and their authors. Pundits are now having a field day attacking Mike Huckabee’s stance on evolution.  Democratic strategist Paul Begala reportedly remarked on CNN on Super Tuesday, “Nobody is more conservative than Huckabee.  He doesn’t believe in evolution or gravity or photosynthesis.” 

            Those who love to lob such oversimplified charges imply that those who do not accept the doctrinaire theories of evolution as set forth by one explorer named Charles Darwin, a century-and-a-half ago, are relics of the Dark Ages. 

            The latest Smart Set, however, echo the sentiments and tone of one of their more famous and notorious predecessors, Clarence Darrow.  The schoolteacher John T. Scopes was among Darrow’s defendants.  Unlike Darrow’s other, murderous, clients, Scopes in 1925 was persuaded by the American Civil Liberties Union to simply defy Tennessee state law against the teaching of evolution as it applies to man.   He willingly complied, though his case never reached the outsiders’ goal of making the case a Constitutional test.

            The public at large has inherited the terms of the evolution debate as handed down in the play about the Scopes trial, Inherit the Wind.  That was the experience of one of my freshmen, who from his high school English class saw the conflict according to the play’s simplistic and polemical outline: a brave, young open-minded biology teacher fights like David against the mob of small-town, ignorant fundamentalists.  Certainly, the play’s stage directions and the movie version show a town as if in the grips of fundamentalist hysteria: The film opens with a veritable mob of Fundamentalist zombies, singing hymns and waving Bibles.  The town’s minister hypocritically promotes Biblical lessons while treating his own daughter, the fiancée of Scopes, with very un-Christian harshness and coldness.  Clarence Darrow (named Henry Drummond in the play) provides a marked contrast to all this hysteria, by his courtroom demeanor, reasoned arguments, and sardonic revelations of how little the townspeople know. 

            But what about the real Clarence Darrow?  Is he the spokesman for reason and light against the onslaught of ignorance and fanaticism?

            A 1927 book review of his, of the now-forgotten The War on Modern Science, provides insight.  Darrow seems to use the review as occasion to continue the arguments from the Scopes trial.  After quickly describing the purpose of author Maynard Shipley’s project of exposing the campaign of “Fundamentalists”--“to make education and life correspond to the weird fables found in Genesis and other parts of the Bible,”--Darrow launches the attack:

            “No more brazen and dangerous attempt to control thought can be found anywhere in history.  The campaign is simply an effort by organized ignorance and bigotry to destroy the learning of the modern world.  Under the leadership of the late William Jennings Bryan [Scopes’s primary antagonist], the forces of ignorance and intolerance were marshalled (sic) from Maine to California, and from Canada to Mexico.”

            The review continues in the same attack mode using the rhetoric of a call to arms with words and phrases like “inquisition,” “campaign,” “onslaught against science” by the “half-educated,” “ignorant minority” to deny what in Darrow’s estimation “every scientist in the world has accepted”: that “evolution [is] a fact beyond dispute.”

            Similarly, in the play, Darwin is presented as a bold thinker, a daring scientist, whose new, daring truths frighten Bible-thumpers.  But what Darrow and Jerome Lawrence and Robert E. Lee (authors of the play) and most promoters of Darwinism don’t know is that the “bold” and “new” theory of evolution was being promoted more than 2,000 years ago by the Roman philosopher Lucretius. 

            And Darrow’s fiery rhetoric in this review is not atypical of those like him who are on a mission to wipe out religious influences across the globe.  One of my college freshman students after reading this review jokingly called Darrow a “fundamentalist evolutionist.”  The student is not a Christian. 

            Darrow’s rhetoric is mimicked in the more recent atheist jeremiads by Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris.  A susceptible public, exposed to one side of the debate in public schools, brought their recent tomes—God Is Not Great, The God Delusion, and The End of Faith, respectively--to the best seller lists. 

            Another perspective that those among our college-educated public will not receive is that of Richard Weaver to whose writing I was introduced while in the master’s program at Georgia State University.  In a seminar on classical rhetoric I found myself the only one in the room supporting the worth of Socrates’ exploration of truth (sophistry being the latest topic of “cutting edge” scholarship).  After several weeks of engaging in discussions where the professor and my fellow students would have forced the hemlock on Socrates (and Aristotle, Cicero, and Quintillian), the professor remarked to me that I was so far to the right that I might even agree with Richard Weaver, on whom he cast fascistic aspersions.  Immediately, after class, I went up to the library stacks and walked out with his volumes in my arms. 

            Among Weaver’s writings I found his analysis of the Scopes trial in The Ethics of Rhetoric.  The chapter, “Dialectic and Rhetoric at Dayton, Tennessee,” is instructive for its analysis of what was (and still is) at stake in the debate on evolution.  In short, Weaver reveals that the two sides were arguing two different things, with Darrow’s side using rhetoric to promote the “fact” of evolution.  As Weaver points out, rhetoric fulfills its function of persuasion only if the two sides agree on the “facts.”

            But more was at stake, as Darrow himself implies in his hysterical review.  And that was the notion of truth.  Dialectic, as in Socratic questioning, as Weaver points out, is “rationally rather than empirically sustained.”  What was at stake for communities in Tennessee was whether it was good that schoolchildren be taught that they descended from apes, rather than being made in God’s image. 

            This idea, and the whole universe of ideas and values that it carries, still forms the central elements of the debate.  For in the Darwinian scheme, man, as nothing more than an animal with more sophisticated cognitive skills, loses moral imperative and free will.  The notion of sin becomes moot.  And, indeed, in terms of his defense of criminals, Darrow himself utilizes arguments about such environmental factors as poverty, parental problems, and even reading material for some of the most heinous murderers.  Among his clients were the privileged young men, Nathan Leopold and Richard Loeb, who coldly and calculatedly murdered their acquaintance Bobby Franks. 

            Weaver astutely points to the prosecution’s use of that case, where Darrow used as defense the fact that Leopold had been impacted negatively by reading Friedrich Nietzsche in school.  Darrow had argued that the universities and professors who taught the nineteen-year-old Leopold are “more responsible for the crime than Leopold himself.”  William Jennings Bryan pointed out that the “doctrine” that Darrow and the evolutionists would teach in the schools is the very same one “that gives us Nietzsche . . . who tried to carry this to its logical conclusion” in the idea of the superman.  That Nietzsche’s nihilistic views questioning the very notion of evil could influence a rich young man whose goal was to coldly carry out a “perfect murder” makes sense given the premises.  In the Darwinian view, animals (including the higher animals like man) act according to environmental forces.  That would include not only physical stimuli, but also intellectual stimuli.

            And that was what the Tennessee lawmakers objected to: the promotion of Darwin’s ideas as moral guidance.  Weaver argues that Darrow, if he believes that Nietzsche could have a negative moral impact, should acknowledge the same for Darwin.

            Even those thoughtful Christian thinkers, like the late Catholic Walker Percy, who see no conflict between evolution and faith, have good reason to be suspicious of the Darwinian view promoted in our schools.  The most strident proponents of Darwinism, such as the philosopher Peter Singer, justify their policies of euthanasia and infanticide by first attacking the Biblical proscriptions against them.  Euthanasia and infanticide, commonly accepted practices before Biblical times, illustrate most starkly Darwinian “survival of the fittest.”  In 1925, the eugenics movement was catching on, especially among the progressive intelligentsia.

            Alas, few in our schools or culture at large, given current publications, textbooks and curriculums, will be exposed to what is at stake in the debate--its real history or complexity.  The confusion that Weaver unraveled—that mistakenly held belief that scientific, empirical “fact” can determine decisions of a moral order—remains with us.  This is especially true in the teaching of literature, where pseudo-facts concerning race, class, and gender are mined in polemical “texts.”  Most students will likely get the Inherit the Wind version in their classroom discussions--with biology teachers often promoting themselves as latter-day Scopes’s.  But like all scientific theories, the jury is still out on this one, as many learned proponents of intelligent design affirm.  But that theory is not likely to get a fair hearing, as are not the moral ramifications and implications of a strict Darwinian view of humanity. 

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About The Author
Mary Grabar earned her Ph.D. in English from the University of Georgia and teaches in the Atlanta area. She is a Pushcart Prize-nominated poet and published fiction writer. Visit her website and get on her mailing list at marygrabar.com
 
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Inherit the Wind
There are two movie versions of "Inherit the Wind". In the first, Gene Kelly plays the young reporter from up North and speaks one of my favorite lines in any movie. As the townspeople of the hideous little Southern town surge around singing hymns and causing trouble, one of the ladies approaches Gene Kelly, who obviously is new in town, and says, "Sonny, lookin' for a nice clean place to stay?". Kelly looks her up and down then says, "Madam, I HAD a nice clean place to stay. I left it to come here."

cute Lilly
Its funny how the christophobes have the inside scoop on how every single Christian thinks on any given subject. And given that said Christophobes are liberal it showcases the vile
hypocrisy and intolerance that's bone deep.

Lilly....
....who is a typical liberal, after reading a column like this, pointedly ignores the entire focus of the column and the great points that Mary made in it, and instead, changes the subject to something irrelevant and trivial.

A sure sign that she has no intellectual or factual arguments to make opposing what Ms. Grabar has stated.

You evolutionists are really going to have to start coming up with some facts and an honest defense of your position, since science does not support the theory of evolution. Darwin himself said that if after years of study, the fossil record did not show intermediary forms, then his theory could not be supported.

And after over 150 years, no such intermediary forms have shown up anywhere in the fossil record.





Science is a method...
--
...by which phenomena may be systematically observed, dispassionately assessed, openly and lucidly analyzed, and - sometimes, not always - either rigorously tested or demonstrated further by additional observation and analysis.

It differs with religion (and with the fuzzier forms of secular epistemology) because it explicitly discounts belief and similar a priori "knowledge" and enshrines reasonable doubt as its guiding principle.

The scientific thinker, contrary to the views of his colleague in the opposite camp of *The Two Cultures* (C.P. Snow, 1959), who condemns him for his supposed arrogance, takes absolutely nothing - except for wholly abstract postulates - as beyond question.

And this upsets religionists, whose values depend entirely upon shared belief systems that they deem it heretical (i.e., sinfully rebellious) to question.

Given that "Liberals" (like our darling lilly) are more akin to religious true believers than reasoning assessors of human nature (which remains observably robust in its constancy despite perhaps a million years of existence and at least six thousand years of civilization, division-of-labor exchange systems, and development of linguistic/conceptual capacities), it is not remarkable that "Liberals" should appear as enemies to Christians and other religionists.

They are, after all, of conflicting belief systems.

Scientists are, at core, purely dismissive of religion.

"Not proven" is sufficient for a scienist to dismiss theological causation from any sort of serious consideration, and turn a cold shoulder to True Believers of any kind.

"Liberals" and religionists, however, are contesting each other for the very souls of their neighbors, and there can be no peace between them.

--

To Annfan
I didn't even finish reading the article. As Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "If I know your sect, I anticipate your argument." And I find the anti-evolution folks even more boring that the anti-abortion folks.

I don't happen to see a conflict between science and religion. AE Housman (excuse me for quoting twice in one post but once upon a time I was an English teacher and the habit sticks) said that when God created the universe he hid bits of knowledge throughout it for man to find, in the way that parents hide Easter eggs for the children to hunt for and find on Easter morning. Isn't that a nice image? I believe that God reveals himself to us through scientists (and other researchers). Religious fundamentalists often see factual knowledge as a challenge to their faith; I see factual knowledge as a gift from God, and the capacity to ferret it out as another gift from God.

Another aspect of this is that we may please God with our intellectual accomplishments. To quote yet a third time, Robert Bolt in his play "A Man For All Seasons" has Sir Thomas More saying of God "Man he made man to delight him with the tangles of his [man's] mind."

And the previous poster who said that scientists are dismissive of religion doesn't know what he is talking about. While I am not a scientist, I have been married to one for 55 years and in that connection have known dozens of scientists quite well. I have never known one who was not in awe of the material he worked with, whatever name he gave it. Don't you suppose that God has many names?




Translation of Lilly's 3:33 AM comment
Don't try to confuse me with facts or truth.
I have my opinions and there's no room for either of those in my little fantasy world of unreality.

Mary Grabar's Obvious Intelligence...
... is completely submerged in this lengthy and poorly cobbled piece of claptrap. Rarely have so many misconceptions about "evolutionists" and the theory itself appeared in such close proximity.

Infanticide has NOTHING to do with survival of the fittest (if it did, it would be present in all species; it's not). People did NOT descend from apes (I mean, really, no evolutionist has ever said anything that foolish; doesn't she know what a "common ancestor" is? Did she descend from her cousin, too?) Evolution has NOTHING to say about morality. One can go on.

To Ms. Grabar: at least pretend to be serious, if you're going to critique a theory. Do you REALLY think you can go head to head with the Dennetts and Dawkins of the world, in terms of understanding even the basic tenets of evolutionary theory? If so, get them to put your photo in the dictionary next to "hubris".

And one more thing: there's been just a bit of work on on evolutionary theory since Darwin, from dozens of disciplinary angles. And even the Scopes trial. Trotting all that out is just sophistry.

Mary is a great writer, but
Mary Grabar is a brilliant person. amd a good writer; but being from Atlanta and thus having the opportunity of seeing more of her writing, I have noticed Dr. Grabar has a tendency to try to squeeze too many points about collateral issues into the instant article- and thus she strays from her subject at times.

This sometimes leads the(and this)reader to say: "Yes, I agree with that little aside, but but pray tell, what is the point of *this* article?

As for MACRO evolution: most Christians including me don't buy it.

Micro evolution which means adapted changes in thesame species does actually happen.

Darwin observed minor changes over time in the beaks of the Gallapagos finches-but at the end of the process-they are STILL birds-and yes, still Gallapagos finches.

But never does one species of plant or animal evolve into another distinct and different species-as MACRO EVOLUTION would have the gullible to believe.

Intelligent Design is not a synonym of evolution. It simply makes the argument for a divine fingerprint on the basic design of the universe and all things in it.




Lazy Brains!
Evolutionists and atheists are just intellectually lazy or it seems that way. It is so much more simple to say there is no God then to accept the fact of faith, then study the past and prophesy of what lies ahead. Just say we come from no where and nothing and we are going no where, then take the rest of your thinking life off. The mysteries in God's word scare many people into christianphobia and others to deny the Word in order to rest the brain. Christians (not the Baptist black folk(democrats) singing about getting a new car or catholics going to mass and then to the sports bar to find some tail) are thinkers, of the past, present and future. The hitchens now are just haters otherwise they would ignore the idea of religion and just keep writing about how smart they are(money hungry). I feel they are the biggest cowards finding a target that won't fight back like other groups. The bottom line is that christianity is not going away anytime soon and the darrows and hitchens of the world will come and go taking not a red cent or an autograph seeker with them when they die, they will be alone with God in the end to explain what they did on earth like all of us. Stop being so brain lazy and get with the program at hallindsey.com

Goodness me
"...imply that those who do not accept the doctrinaire theories of evolution are relics of the Dark Ages."

Well they are. Sorry.

"Evolutionists and atheists are just intellectually lazy or it seems that way"

Then it is you who are not thinking. There are hundreds of thousands of published scientific papers on evolution. That's not lazy thinking.

annfan: "You evolutionists are really going to have to start coming up with some facts and an honest defense of your position"

See above: hundreds of thousands of published scientific papers on evolution

annfan: "after over 150 years, no such intermediary forms have shown up anywhere in the fossil record"

Utterly incorrect. Where do you GET this nonsense from? Bactritids, Tiktaalik roseae,
Osteolepis, Eusthenopteron, Panderichthys,
Elginerpeton... and on and on.

Evolution is a fact
and the Theory of Evolution explains that fact.

Macroevolution is simply a chain of microevolution events.

It would be nice if English professors stayed within the area of their expertise; explaining what authors are really thinking after they are no longer around to tell us what they were thinking.

If you don't "believe" in evolution, it is simply because you do not have the intellectual gifts to understand it.

"learned proponents of (I.D.) affirm???"
Let's cut to the chase. There are no honest "learned proponents of intelligent design." There are no journal articles from this odd bunch that stand up to peer-reviewed scientific scrutiny. There are no experiments. The best known of all of them admitted in Dover testimony that I.D. is no more "science" than astrology. It is, undeniably, "Creationism dressed up in a tuxedo."

The author attacks evolutionary theory by attacking Darrow for defending murderers eighty years ago. She attacks Darwin's incredible analysis of evidence and his theorizing by claiming he'd done nothing new.

I confronted one of the "young earth creationists" on the Kansas Board of Education by mentioning some of those transitional species cited by AndyR, above. This was before the announcement of the discovery of Tiktaalik, but I'd included tetrapods in my comments. He hadn't the faintest notion of what I was talking about, but he certainly "knew what he knew."

Graybar should stick to writing fiction instead of trying to make a rational argument where none exists, in defense of her viewpoint. Her writing is nothing but silliness.

Some evidence would help.
It doesn't really matter whether you believe in natural evolution or evolution via a Supreme Being since neither cause is provable.
It is without question that evolution happens, that is why we have to keep having a new Flu vaccine every year and why some antibiotics become ineffective.
But in a Democracy you may believe what you like and if you believe that God created all things, even natural evolution, then surely you will believe that evolution was one of many on going processes created by God to benefit mankind and that if we study it enough we will be able to reap some of those benefits.
But literal interpretation of the Bible is a problem, since even the Catholic Church admits to having introduced alterations and the modern Bible is certainly not the same as the original.
Taking Genesis literally seems perverse since vary little research will enable you to discover that Genesis is based on other old tales of wars of the Gods that have a different slant. Or did I just read all that somewhere and without having any evidence that it was accurate, interpreted it literally.

Science and morality…

What does science have to do with morality? The darwinites say that their theory has nothing to say about morality. If that were the case then it would be a scientific theory. But from its origin it has always been about morality or immorality should we say.

Macro evolution (ME) confirms the doctrine of depravity. Men will believe a lie rather than face the reality of a Creator God to whom they are responsible. Their view of the fossil record denies the greatest example of divine judgment the world has yet seen.

You can deny creation, but how can you deny the fossil record? This is physical evidence that demands an explanation. Does the fossil record confirm the Genesis Flood event? The father of lies cannot have this obvious confirmation of the Bible. How best to deceive a multiple of men than with ME.

Behind ME lies the deceiver’s craftiness. It removes the necessity of a creator and man’s moral responsibility as image bearers. Moral guilt and the necessity of redemption are non issues for the darwinites. The question of why did God destroy the world with a flood of water is not considered by those held captive in the deception. It even removes the concept of the man of sin who was a liar from the beginning.

A question that should be asked and researched: Do the high school and college mass murders have a common link to social Darwinism? I do not mean that they were exposed to it, but that they took it in and it became their world view. Eventually this vain philosophy corrupted their thinking until it resulted in outward destructive behavior.


Link to Ben Stein’s EXPELLED trailer…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxGyMn_-J3c


shubi
Explain to me how the Theory of Evolution answers the four fundamental questions of life:

Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny.

Thank You.

shubi
Correction:

Just tell me how it ADDRESSES them. "Answering " them may be a bit too much to ask.

Evolutionists are comfortable
with the revisionist history implicitly taught as fact in schools with the introduction of "Inherit The Wind" in High School English mandatory reading lists.

The true history of what transpired in that trial is expertly covered in Edward J. Larson's "Summer For The Gods".

Being comfortable with the discrepancy displays the conscience of the Evolutionists.

Gingrich and Grabar in the Same Day
What a literary treat for us. Gingrich talks about her life (again) and Grabar (who?) talks about Darrow, Scopes and evolution. And the point(s) of these articles = __________? Just a couple of empty spaces filled with words that have no added meaning. And all for the world to breathe in and be fulfilled.

Huckabee and McCain

And so we come to the current status of the stand off between Huckabee and McCain.

The ugliness of some in the McCain camp vilifying Huckabee's belief rather than allowing an opportunity to debate is at force.

Easier I guess to trigger ignorant prejudice and suspicion than actually debate. For if both parties are capable - in the end we will find we have no really quarrell with each other.

The damage the McCain camp is doing is mean spirited and every Christian wether a fundamentalist or not - is listening very carefully.

Nothing from nowhere
suddenly became something from somewhere. Directed by nothing, but now is a complex something. Valient is right, evolution is a replacement religion for those who obviously are blind to LOGIC! Evolution: this nohting that is now something, just happened, and spun around till it became stars and planets and galaxies, and then it decided to spit out earth, and then, it needed water, so it got some, and a one celled animal, so it did, then, because of time, changes happen that are directed by chance, and then the creature who needed a mate spit one out, and decided to leave the sea, and then, crazy things happened, and monkeys evolved, and then they were swingin in the trees until one monkey was swingin, and his tail got torn off, so he liked it, and decided to live in a cave. The cave was shorter than him, so he kept scrappin his head on the ceiling, and eventually went bald, and now is teaching evolution at some University! Makes sense to me, than to just look out and see the design of creation, and realizing there can't be a designer, that can't be LOGICAL!

DARWINISM AND ATHEISM BOTH MYTHICAL!!!
DARWINISM AND ATHEISM BOTH UNSCIENTIFIC AND MYTHICAL

http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com

Along with the arrogance of presumed nominees, is the arrogance of Darwinist who promote their "science-Fiction"

SO THE MESSAGE TO ALL THE TRUE CONSERVATIVES WHO VOTED FOR the "so-called" CONSERVATIVE candidate, Mitt Romney, "who cares what you think conservatives, we masons only used Romney, Thompson, and Giuliani to steal delegates from Mike Huckabee that's why we used the media to prop up all three candidates to make them appear conservative.

To all the conservatives were deceived by this media and these three candidates, I tried my very best to warn you about what was coming. Now every candidate except Mike Huckabee and two others, who challenged John McCain, is buddying up to him all of a sudden. Mike Huckabee did not have to change his message to be popular. Those who actually hear him like, because he has real solutions and specific strategies to help America.

SURPRISE SURPRISE SURPRISE - WHEN ALL WAS SAID AND DONE MIKE HUCKABEE WAS THE TRUE CONSERVATIVE.

THIS SITE WAS POWERFUL THAT THE MASONS HAD IT CENSORED MY FEATURED BLOG IN MY PROFILE FROM TOWNHALL DOT COM. I LOVE THIS COUNTRY AND THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH. WE ALL MUST STAND UP AGAINST THEIR CENSORSHIP.


HERE IT IS BELOW.

http://evolutionfacts.blogtownhall.com/2008/02/11/the_shift _in_momentum_is_for_president_huckabee_in_2008__exposing_th e_tactics_of_political_masons.thtml



Separation of science and politics
Regardless of your personal views on evolution, it is both dangerous and self-defeating for ANY political movement (such as conservatism) to take stands on the truth or falsity of scientific THEORIES.

Whether you believe that Darwin was right, or whether you believe that Einstein may have been wrong about a few things, or whether you believe that life exists on other planets or not, it is wrong to drag such questions into political debates.

Our civilization has progressed tremendously due to free scientific inquiry. Pursuing scientific truth should not require scientists to look over their shoulder at what the current political doctrines in vogue are. And Government officials should not put semi-official imprimatur on favored scientific theories.

Regimes that forgot that only hurt themselves:

Nazi persecution of great Jewish scientists like Einstein caused them to flee to America, enabling America to develop the atomic bomb before the Nazis.

Lysenkoism (a Marxist pseudo-scientific theory of genetics) wrecked genetic research in the USSR, setting biological research back decades. America, not Russia, is the leader in genetic engineering and genome research.

Scientific THEORIES should be left alone. Scientific APPLICATIONS require policy and ethics to govern how they were used.

The Nazis really shot themselves in the foot when they chased Einstein and his contemporaries out of Germany. Einstein's theories have revolutionized our understanding of matter and energy, space and time.

Einstein's theories of relativity made the atomic bomb possible. But that doesn't mean we have to build nuclear weapons. That's a political CHOICE our society can make or not make.

Whether the theory of relativity is true, is NOT a political choice.

Donald Duck is John McCain's Son
Evolution is evidenced by the old fossil's record.

Proof that Donald evolved from John? They both have the same: height, waddle, voice, temper and I.Q.

Granted, the facial characteristics are slightly different but if Elmer Fudd's head was transposed onto Donald Ducks body, the match would be perfect!

Senator McFuddy Ducky.

War between Theist and Atheist!
Sir Arthur Keith said, "Evolution is unproven and unprovable. We believe it because the alternative is special creation, which is unthinkable."

Thus the war was on!

atheists and Lilly
Atheists are irrational. I don't know if Lilly is an atheist, probably. Lilly shows her irrationality in her first post. She posts her ignorance for all to see as if that will explain why evolution is a fact. Irrational.
Atheists claim to believe in only the material, but logical thought is not material. Irrational. Evolution is so impossible that it is ridiculous, yet athesists state it as fact. Irrational.

to shubi
Actually, you believe in evolution because you don't understand it. Anyone who understands it, can't believe in it, it's impossible.
As for the person who posted the circular reasoning, not sure if you were making a joke or serious. Theories don't prove anything. From a theory are supposed to come hypothesis, which in turn are tested scientifically. You cannot scientifically test random chance. Which is why evolution is still a theory. It's not a scientific theory or it would be testable.
As for the observation argument, that's just looking for confirming evidence, which can always be found, no matter what. Proves nothing.
EVOLUTIONISTS ARE SO IGNORANT!!! Evolution is a tautology.

to assume is to make an...
you know the rest of that sentence.(I assume)Lilly may not be an atheist,most likely is not.
Labels are foolish things to keep foolish,small
minds content.I will offer my opinion about the
very real existence of God,and defend it when necessary...but I will not shove it down your throat.Don't assume that Lilly is an atheist,not
fair to do that.God and science hold hands and I
do believe that a true scientist marvels at the
world and life and believes in God/science together.Prove it? Why?To whom? Must we constantly defend all we believe? Huh? Or what? Attacked by true Christians as the fall of the
Great Country of America?Labeled and scorned?Oh
boy!

PS
Do true Christians label and scorn? Ban books?Do
things that exhibit a lack of open mindedness?The
Christ I know is forgiving and loving...do we all
know the same Christ?
If someone kills a human being and attorneys and
doctors prove that "worldly influences"(games,books,music,parental neglect,etc)are the "reason"...we are so sorry
that happened to them as a young child and with
incredible sadness and understanding in our hearts,we will lock 'em up forever to keep the
rest of our folks safe.End of the story.Each
parent needs to teach their child right and wrong,guide
them to a church,a belief,give them a moral compass to help them...ideally,that is.Children
are certanily treated to a lot of conflict these
days by the adults who surround them!My agenda vs
your agenda...never to come to the middle and work together for the good of all...NAH!What a lesson we teach!Mike Huckabee is a strong,capable
fellow who can work a crowd really well.No need to defend him or his stand on religion...faith says it speaks for itself,with quiet resolve and
an open mind.(Not left or right...but open and able to respect folks and their absolute right to believe as they choose)Put away your weapons
and come to the table and let's talk about how we
can survive!

Gabar's Scientism
"Those who love to lob such oversimplified charges imply that those who do not accept the doctrinaire theories of evolution as set forth by one explorer named Charles Darwin, a century-and-a-half ago, are relics of the Dark Ages. "

So much wrong with this statement. It was out of the Dark Ages we got Paley's Blind Watchman and out of the Enlightenment we got natural selection, first expounded by Adam Smith as the undesigned and unplanned, emerging and spontaneous "invisible hand" of free market economies. Evolutionary theory has advanced since then.

"The public at large has inherited the terms of the evolution debate as handed down in the play about the Scopes trial, Inherit the Wind."

Grabar ought to at least have the intellectual honesty of crediting Phillip Johnson's misrepresentations of science and evolutionary theory in _Defeating Darwinism_ instead of plagiarizing.

"William Jennings Bryan pointed out that the “doctrine” that Darrow and the evolutionists would teach in the schools is the very same one “that gives us Nietzsche . . . who tried to carry this to its logical conclusion” in the idea of the superman."

Incorrect. Bryan like so many confuse Darwinian evolution with Social Darwinism, what Frederick Hayek, who like Adam Smith viewed economics as evolutionary, calls scientism, the misapplication of scientific models and metaphors to areas they do not apply. It is from Social Darwinism that euthanasia arises.

Gabar later defines this scientism precisely: "The confusion that Weaver unraveled—that mistakenly held belief that scientific, empirical 'fact' can determine decisions of a moral order—remains with us." She doesn't get it though, because she practices it.

...

Gabar's Scientism
"In the Darwinian view, animals (including the higher animals like man) act according to environmental forces."

False. What Grabar conflates here are man's physical and moral nature. Darwin, like Adam Smith in _The Theory of Moral Sentiments_, saw man as naturally moral, able to choose between good and evil.

"Alas, few in our schools or culture at large, given current publications, textbooks and curriculums, will be exposed to what is at stake in the debate--its real history or complexity."

Let's hope discussion that ensues here can correct your mistakes and misrepresentations, Gabar.

"But like all scientific theories, the jury is still out on this one, as many learned proponents of intelligent design affirm."

IOW, science that agrees with your beliefs is fine? ID is just a new version of Paley's Watchmaker. An excellent example of scientism, thank you very much, Gabar.

SJ Doc
What you posted got me thinking so I'll add my 2 pennies to yours.

"Science is a method..."

Yes, it is, and the knowledge thereby accumulated.

"It differs with religion … because it explicitly discounts belief and similar a priori "knowledge"…"

I think you're conflating scientific materialism, which limits scientific study to what can be empirically tested, with metaphysical materialism, which discounts all but the material world. Soon enough someone will stir into the pot of confusion dialectical materialism.

"The scientific thinker ... takes absolutely nothing ... as beyond question."

True, I think, but this habit of questioning takes the scientific thinker outside the bounds of scientific materialism and into metaphysics of various sorts.

"And this upsets religionists, whose values depend entirely upon shared belief systems that they deem it heretical (i.e., sinfully rebellious) to question."

Thing is, with Christianity at least, religious experience and faith and salvation is personal and not shared because those things lie outside reason which is needed to communicate them.

"Given that "Liberals" ... are more akin to religious true believers than reasoning assessors of human nature ..., it is not remarkable that "Liberals" should appear as enemies to Christians and other religionists."

It is ironical but true and largely, imo, because both tend to reject man's nature.

"'Not proven' is sufficient for a scientist to dismiss theological causation from any sort of serious consideration, and turn a cold shoulder to True Believers of any kind."

Here I disagree. The notion is inductive proof was debunked by Hume and deductive proof by Popper. Even Poincare would argue there are just too many facts to attend too. Theological causation, the cosmological argument, is dismissed on metaphysical grounds as simply a poor argument.

CREATION - DESIGN OR ACCIDENT?

.....Mary ...

.....To the best of my knowledge not one single word in the Bible was written by God or Jesus ...so those that say that every word in the Bible is God's word have no basis for such an assumption ...

.....The key point in dispute is Creation and the Origin of Life ...and there are many unanswered questions and many questions that cannot be answered ...

.....Was the Universe created? (Big Bang theory) or is it Eternal? ....

.....Was life created through random selection of inanimate molecules into organic life (Evolution)? ...or was life created through intelligent design? ...

.....I come down on the side of the latter ...all these arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin ...and trick questions meant to entrap such as "do you believe every word in the Bible to be factual" are wasted journeys down philosophical dead ends ...

.....It all boils down to one simple question ...

.....Do you believe that the origin of life came about through the convergence of random elements to create mathematical order out of chaos? ...or do you believe that the orgin of life is the result of intelligent design? ...

.....There is only one logical answer and all the rest is claptrap .....COLOSSUS

cornpone harry
"But never does one species of plant or animal evolve into another distinct and different species-as MACRO EVOLUTION would have the gullible to believe."

Harry, check out "29+ Evidences for Macroevolution" @ http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/sciproof.html and let us know what exactly is it you dispute there.

Species, you know, are not creationist kinds. Simple definition is inablity to mate. A simple example of this is ring species in salamanders @ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/05/2/l_052_05.ht ml

"The various Ensatina salamanders of the Pacific coast all descended from a common ancestral population. As the species spread southward from Oregon and Washington, subpopulations adapted to their local environments on either side of the San Joaquin Valley. From one population to the next, in a circular pattern, these salamanders are still able to interbreed successfully. However, where the circle closes -- in the black zone on the map in Southern California -- the salamanders no longer interbreed successfully. The variation within a single species has produced differences as large as those between two separate species."

Macroevolution as treated by biologists differs from microevolution only in degree.

Biblical kinds is an entirely different animal. No scientist postulates dogs turn into cats or apes into men.

Never change
Somethings never change. There will always be those that hate the concept of God. Perhaps the Darwinians will find the idea of extrapolating the theory of evolution to be the answer and alternative to the concept of God to go the same way as the flat earth. Time will tell.

TOM & BILLINORLANDO

.....Funny posts ...a little humor always helps ...

.....Something out of nothing? ...as Mr. Spock would say, "That is illogical" .....COLOSSUS

Science vs. Silly
"For in the Darwinian scheme, man, as nothing more than an animal with more sophisticated cognitive skills, loses moral imperative and free will. The notion of sin becomes moot."

Right. Here ya go Mary. Try reading "The Blank Slate, The Modern Denial of Human Nature" by Steven Pinker.

Time and time again it has been shown that the basis of morality has nothing to do with religion. Atheists are indistinguishable in society from the religious. They are not in jails in higher numbers. No scientific study has been able to show that atheists are any less moral or any more moral than society at large.

So you are just being silly, as are the people who claim that teaching Darwinism has some moral impact on society. There has never once been a study to show that teaching Darwinism has any impact at all on people's lives.

A child goes to school for 12 years. Somewhere in that twelve years they will, if lucky, get one hour instruction on Darwinism. That's 1 hour.

One hour of Darwinism, and BANG, your kid is a Darwin addict, their morals ruined for life.

Personally I do agree with you on one thing. If teaching man descends from apes for one hour in a twelve year education causes such a stink, just drop it.

The one hour biology lecture on how birds evolved from dinosaurs, etc. is good enough. The creationists don't believe in Dinosaurs anyway since they are older than 6,000 years, so no harm no fowl.







A question
I didn't finish reading Grabar's column either, it was too much of a snore.

But did she REALLY say that scientists believe that man descended from apes?

If that's what she thinks she has bigger problems than defending people who think the earth is 600 years old and popped into existence like a magic trick.

ValiantForTruth
"What does science have to do with morality? The darwinites say that their theory has nothing to say about morality. If that were the case then it would be a scientific theory. But from its origin it has always been about morality or immorality should we say."

Oh? Can you cite Darwin making such claims? I'd be interested in seeing that and how he solved the is-ought problem. I can cite people like Phillip Johnson who misrepresent science and evolutionary theory that way, and him or Henry Morris who want to change the definition of science to support their personal religious beliefs. But I just don't recall a scientist making such claims.

"Macro evolution ... lie ..."

See post above providing evidence and explanation.

"You can deny creation, but how can you deny the fossil record?"

So far the fossil record supports evolutionary theory and does not falsify it. Did you have some specific evidence in mind or are you just arguing God of Gaps?

"Do the high school and college mass murders have a common link to social Darwinism?"

Perhaps, but there's no link between Social Darwinism and Darwinian Evolutionary Theory. Unless you care to show it.

Post Holer
I also didn't read the quote of Grabar's that you attributed to her - it stunds me that there are still people who think that moral imperatives only come from religious belief, in the face of all the science: brain imagery, social and morality experiments, etc.

If Grabar is the poster child for anti-evolutionists, they should find one who knows what she is talking about or at least gets out into the real world and does a little research.

tom
"suddenly became something from somewhere. Directed by nothing, but now is a complex something. Valient is right, evolution is a replacement religion for those who obviously are blind to LOGIC! Evolution: this nohting that is now something, just happened, and spun around till it became stars and planets and galaxies, and then it decided to spit out earth, and then, it needed water, so it got some...."

Sounds like your retelling creation from Genesis to me, something from nothing and all that is what the Bible claims for God, not what science claims from the origins of the universe, life and everything else.

This is a little off subject
but I'm wondering if any posters on this thread have been following the philosophical-moral debates about the train crash question. It goes like this:

If you are standing along side a railroad switch and see a runaway train headed for a group of 5 workmen, but throwing the swithc means that the train will jump that track and kill the engineer, would you still do it?

Second, imagine you are on a bridge overlooking the trunaway train next to a man who is fat enough to impede the train if he falls on the tracks directly in front of it. Would you push him over the rail?

Romney and McCain Believe in Evolution
One believes in a false god invented in the 1800s.

The other is a non-religious agnostic who calls himself a "Christian" when a reporter asks.

Both have stated their firm belief in evolution -- which is the pillar of both Nazism and every Leftist belief.

Neither believes the Old and New Testaments should be taken seriously.

Only Mike Huckabee believes the Biblical record.

Only Mike Huckabee rejects Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.

Ah the media...
Intelligent design and the great intelligence emanates from God, Himself. Case closed!

Now, let's see who was it that injected religion into the campaign? Oh yes, the media did and did so at every oppportunity. Neither Huckabee nor Romney, or others for that matter, brought up religion, and if asked, made it clear that it was a 'personal choice'. This is America and people, even the candidates, are allowed to believe as they so choose. Why has religion become such a hot button issue in this campaign anyhow? I respect greatly Mike Huckabee's stalwart defense of his faith, but why have not the media pundits not focused on his ten years of governmental experience rather than his religious beliefs. Very unbalanced reporting, but then what else is new.

Are you aware?-
(1) That a person can believe in the validity of evolutionary theory and not automatically be an "atheist"?
(2) That a person can be a "conservative", and still believe in the validity of evolutionary theory?

Ms. Grabar failed to address any of the supposed "flaws" in evolutionary theory, nor did she supply any factual support for any alternative (ID) theory, short of claiming that "the jury is still out" (I'm sure there are people who would claim that the jury is still out as to the superiority of the white race, that the earth is flat, that aliens are routinely kidnapping people, etc.). It never fails to amuse me how fundamentalists can enjoy the fruits of our technology, all of which derived from the same scientific method used to formulate and validate evolutionary theory, yet "draw the line" when it comes to anything that challenges the idea that every single word in the Bible came directly from God. That religion is the sole source of morality in this world is directly contradicted by the bloodshed in the Middle East. As the Koran says, "Slay the unbelievers wherever you may find them." If one actually reads the Bible and compares the harmful acts performed by the Bible's "God" with those done by the devil, as one person put it, "It appears to be a book written by the devil about God."

Excellent...
Excellent Article and thank you for remembering that Huckabee is still a viable candidate in this election process.

Mark writes, Let's think makes sense
"Both have stated their firm belief in evolution -- which is the pillar of both Nazism and every Leftist belief."

Why am I not surprised that a TH poster thinks that evolutionists are closet Nazis?

Let's think's post is absolutely right - there are more believers who credit evolutionary theory than not. he idea that belief in evolution automatically makes one a nazi or an atheist is considered as truth on pretty much of TH but considered eccentric and nutty in the big world outside.


Another column mistake
" and my fellow students would have forced the hemlock on Socrates (and Aristotle, Cicero, and Quintillian), '


Sorry, Mary, Hemlock was not "forced" on Socrates - he was offered many chances to forego that end and turned them all down despite pleas from colleagues and government officials. He was in his 70s at the time, very old by ancient health standards - no one actually knows the real reason but he did have a reputation as an attention wh-re.

The problem with evolution...
The problem with evolution is that it is a *change* hypothesis, not an *origins* hypothesis. For evolution to occur, that requires a predecessor-lifeform before the mutation that will occur in its progeny, the successor. That does not answer, though, how life first began. And no, zapping a gaseous mix with some electricity and generating some amino acids does not constitute life.

Darwin is highly overrated, because what he witnessed was not evolution, which is genetic mutation, but rather natural selection -- that some species are able to thrive and others faltered when put in certain environments that are advantageous or detrimental to their survival.

Monster
Monster: "Explain to me how the Theory of Evolution answers the four fundamental questions of life: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny."

Er... why should it explain those things? Does the theory of gravity explain morality? Does the theory of flight?

The Theory of Evolution makes no claims to address those questions. It explains biodiversity. That's why it's taught in biology class, not philosophy.

PintoMan
PintoMan: "Which is why evolution is still a theory. It's not a scientific theory or it would be testable."

Right, so because we had the 'theory of flight?', that meant it wasn't testable, and wasn't scientific? That mean we weren't sure things actually flew?

Evolution IS testable. The fact you don't know this, and obviously don't understand the scientific use of the word 'theory', makes a mockery of you saying "Anyone who understands [evolution], can't believe in it". Because you obviously do NOT understand it.

Evolution vs Creationism
I find sad the arguments from both sides of the fence.

Those that believe in one are more than willing to dismiss the other and attack those who challenge their beliefs.

When it comes down to which is correct I'd bet that the truth lies somewhere between the two.

For the creationists; Is it not possible that our creator gave all his/her creations the ability to learn, adapt, grow, and evolve so that we stand a chance of surviving changes of the environment in which to live?

For the evolutionists; Is it not possible that given how complex we and the universe in which we live are that everything we know and have yet to discover are the creations of some higher power or advanced being?

All these attacks and arguments with each other are rooted in the fear of the unknown. Both science and religion seek to discover the unknown, they just do so in different ways.

Both science and religion can and have been twisted by man. As we grow and lean we disprove old beliefs and develop new ones based on the facts we have.

The Earth is not flat.
The Earth is not the center of the universe.
Man can survive travel faster than the speed of sound. (what scientist said before we did it)
The speed of light is NOT an unbreakable barrier.

The later is in the process of being proven. For more info go to; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/200 7/08/16/scispeed116.xml

My point is that both sides have been right & wrong. We are but infants when it comes to the understanding of the universe and how we came to exist. It is mighty presumptive of us to believe that either argument is 100% correct.

I see no reason why as open minded learning adapting growing and developing beings we can't teach our children that both Evolution and Creationism could be true or false. Well there is one reason that applies to both sides; the fear that their beliefs, be they faith or science based could be challenged and possibly disproved.

Darling lilly - scientists & religion
--
Says sweet, innocent lilly:

"And the previous poster [me] who said that scientists are dismissive of religion doesn't know what he is talking about. While I am not a scientist, I have been married to one for 55 years and in that connection have known dozens of scientists quite well. I have never known one who was not in awe of the material he worked with, whatever name he gave it. Don't you suppose that God has many names?"

Aw, how cute.

Tell us, Lilly, when was the last time that *Physics Letters* (A or B) published a contribution that included the words:

"...and here God passed a miracle"

...hm?

Or *JAMA* or *Clinical Therapeutics* or even *Cortland Forum*?

When I wrote that "not proven" is sufficient for a scienist to dismiss theological causation from any sort of serious consideration, I was stating a cold fact.

Not even the most god-besotted of scientists is stupid enough to bring his religious beliefs into the laboratory (or even the pharmacy) and put them forward as if they meant anything his colleagues need give weight or respect.

Little hint for you.

A great many scientists are also flatulent.

The fact that they fart from time to time doesn't give their gas any great role in the real work they do.

--


Evolution vs Creationism
Christopher Parisho writes:"Is it not possible that given how complex we and the universe in which we live are that everything we know and have yet to discover are the creations of some higher power or advanced being?"

It's POSSIBLE. Lots of things are POSSIBLE. But there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that it's true. If such evidence comes along then it will be considered and examined. Until then it has no place in science classes.

At any rate, evolution has nothing to do with the complexity of the universe, or even how life began on earth (abiogenesis).

Evolution
The comments are very interesting. How many of those on the Intelligent Design side have any background in any science, especially in biology.
Evolution does not purport to say how life began nor how the universe began. It does try to explain the facts of the world by an idea that seems to fit the data. There is an enormous fossil record. It is not surprising that there is not a complete record of all the transition forms, but there are enough to be convincing to those who are willing to look at the evidence. There is also DNA relating all plants and animals.
I was recently disappointed by an article in TownHall Magazine about how those who support Inteligent Design are discriminated against. Not one word in support of the idea of Intelligent Design (Creationism with a new name).
As to demonizing and disparaging the people who lived in Dayton, Tennessee, I suspect that is the Hollywood dressing. What was going on in New York and Boston at that time or in Chicago?

Evolution vs. Environment
Have you ever noticed that while Mickey Mouse always wears pants and Minnie Mouse and Daisey Duck always wear dresses, Donald Duck never wears pants?

That is proof that Donald Duck (and his cousin Bill Clinton) evolved from John McCain.

Historicaly, Donald, Bill and John have had problems keeping their pants on.

AndyR writes:
But there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that it's true. If such evidence comes along then it will be considered and examined. Until then it has no place in science classes.
****

So what you are saying is that we can't teach the possibility until evidence is discovered. Isn't that a catch 22?

Science is about developing a theory, then using the scientific method to either prove or disprove the theory in such a way that other independent researchers can replicate the process in which it was proven/disproved to substantiate the conclusion.

If we took the approach of waiting till evidence was discovered then many great discoveries would go undiscovered.

Should a religious belief be taught in science class? No, it should be taught by the religion which holds the belief to be true.

But science class should not teach the exclusion of other beliefs because they are religious based either.

Christopher Parisho replies...
"So what you are saying is that we can't teach the possibility until evidence is discovered. Isn't that a catch 22?"

No it isn't. We teach about what we know. We don't teach things for which there is no evidence. Your description of how science works is correct. But I was talking about what we teach. Scientists can attempt to find whatever evidence they want, whatever possibilities they like. They can search for evidence against evolution as much as they like. So far, none has been found.

"But science class should not teach the exclusion of other beliefs because they are religious based either."

Why should science teach other beliefs? That's not it's place. Should Astronomers teach also discuss astrology? Chemists discuss alchemy? No. Science is about evidence, not 'beliefs'.

AndyR writes:
At any rate, evolution has nothing to do with the complexity of the universe, or even how life began on earth (abiogenesis).
****

Do you have evidence?

If you believe in the big bang, then the universe as we know it is an evolution from that event into what we live in today.

Similarly, life on Earth could be an evolution from some as yet undiscovered lesser form of life, the creation by another higher form of life, or the result of a chain of events (neither evolutionary or created) which produced the building blocks of life that we are made of.

much more viable candidate
yes, Mike Huckabee is a much more viable candidate than those who believe in evolution!

Robinson’s Drug Store

The pushers of evolution tell us that a little speck of something washed up on a beach somewhere, then evolved into all that we see today. My question, that I have asked many time, is never answered, and the subject is always changed right quick.

My question: Where did that little speck of something come from and how did that beach just happen to be there at the right time. And where did the beach come from?

But one time a speck of rusty something washed up on that same beach. If you hear a roar, look up and you can see the 747 that evolved from that speck of rust. Well, maybe that did take a bit of intelligent design on the part of those engineers in Seattle.

Sixty years ago, when I was stationed at Ft. Benning, GA, I visited William Jennings Bryan University in Dayton, Tenn. With a young lady from the University, we visited Robinson’s Drug Store (that gets 133,000 hits on Google), and drank a coke at the very same, well preserved, wood topped table where Bryan and Darrow argued.

My brother and his future wife attended Bryan University in the late 1930s, but they never drank a Coke at Robinson’s. Two 5¢ Cokes, about the income for an hour’s hard labor, were beyond the budget in those days.

Big bang
"Do you have evidence? If you believe in the big bang, then the universe as we know it is an evolution from that event into what we live in today."

Do I have evidence for what?
That's not what we mean by evolution. It describes how life developed on earth. It doesn't have anything to do with how life BEGUN. The universe doesn't 'evolve'. Life evolves.

Life evolved on our planet, regardless of whether the universe was started by the Big Bang, whether it always existed, or whether it was created by Allah, Thor, Woden, or the Christian or Jewish God.

AndyR writes:
"So what you are saying is that we can't teach the possibility until evidence is discovered. Isn't that a catch 22?"

No it isn't. We teach about what we know. We don't teach things for which there is no evidence. Your description of how science works is correct. But I was talking about what we teach. Scientists can attempt to find whatever evidence they want, whatever possibilities they like. They can search for evidence against evolution as much as they like. So far, none has been found.
****

You are not getting my point.

In order for scientists to know how to search for evidence they have to be open to other ideas which sometimes do not fit the accepted theory.

Questioning what we know or accept is what we need to teach.

By teaching in science class that religious points of view are not valid because they have not been proven (or the evolution is the ONLY answer because it has not been disproved) is no different than religions imposing on their followers that they must abide with out question the teachings of the religion.

I did not say religion needs to be taught in science class, I said we do not need to teach exclusion of religion in science class.

Theory is theory regardless of it's origins. For one to exclude the the theory of other due to the origins of the theory is to teach intolerance and limit the development of the open mind one needs to search for the truth.

Jim
Jim: "My question, that I have asked many time, is never answered, and the subject is always changed right quick. Where did that little speck of something come from"

That's a chemistry question, Jim, not a biology question.

"...and how did that beach just happen to be there at the right time."

And that's a geology question!

Your questions are about events pre-dating life, and therefore pre-dating Biology. So it's not surprising that Biologists shrug at your questions. You might as well ask a 747 engineer how a plane was put together. And then when he answers say, "Aha, but you can't tell me how metal formed, hundreds of millions of years ago".

Chris
"Theory is theory regardless of it's origins."

I'm sorry, I still think you are confused about the scientific meaning of the word 'theory'.

"Questioning what we know or accept is what we need to teach."
So Geography should teach that the earth might be flat, just cos some cranks still believe that in the face of the evidence?

AndyR writes: Sunday, February, 17, 2008
Do I have evidence for what?

That's not what we mean by evolution. It describes how life developed on earth. It doesn't have anything to do with how life BEGUN. The universe doesn't 'evolve'. Life evolves.
****

Do you have evidence that evolution has nothing to do with the complexity of the universe?

Clearly you don't even understand the MANY definitions of the word evolution.

Read this;

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evolution

Now answer;

If as you say the universe doesn't 'evolve' then explain how the grand canyon was formed from a flat plain, or how how stars and solar systems form from nebula.

I'll save you the effort;

Both are forms of evolution from one state of being to another using process such as erosion or gravitational attraction.

CALM TOUJ.

.....Using Logic and Ethics ...if an inaction results in the death of five, which is not 100% certain as the future cannot be foretold ...and an action results in the death of one, which is certain ...then the action is wrong .....COLOSSUS

AndyR writes:
"Theory is theory regardless of it's origins."

I'm sorry, I still think you are confused about the scientific meaning of the word 'theory'.

"Questioning what we know or accept is what we need to teach."

So Geography should teach that the earth might be flat, just cos some cranks still believe that in the face of the evidence?
****

Every time you post you dig your hole deeper.

Theory (all definitions);

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory

And your geology class/flat earth comment is just an expression of your closed mind and intolerance of others based on their or your religious beliefs.

By making arguments such as these you only serve to prove the intolerance the religious side says exists in the scientific community.

Chris
Try the SCIENTIFIC meaning of theory, not colloquial.

LILLY

.....Since your understanding of Darwinism comes from the movies have you ever considered that we are just batteries to supply a heat source for machines? ...No! ...then watch the movie "The Matrix" and become enlightened .....COLOSSUS

chris
"explain how the grand canyon was formed from a flat plain"

This is explained by geology, not biology. In short: soil erosion over millennia.

You're playing with semantics by using 'evolution' in this way. Huckabee and Grabar were using the word in its biological sense.

BILLINORLANDO

.....Of course! ...I don't know how I could have missed that evolutionary link ...Donald Duck, Bill Clinton and McCain ...it is so obvious ...it is all beginning to make sense to me now .....COLOSSUS

Theory, flat earth
"And your geology class/flat earth comment is just an expression of your closed mind and intolerance of others based on their or your religious beliefs."

The evidence points to a spherical earth, and to evolution. The analogy is sound.

Theory, Gould:
"Facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."

Real issues for conservatives
While, as a liberal, I'm pleased to see that some TH readers have some knowledge of real science (e.g., several people know what "theory" means in real science, which is great), it seems to me that Dr. Grabar's main point is being overlooked so far.

Conservatism requires some doctrine to the effect that questions of good/bad, right/wrong, and the like have to be answered by referring to some sort of "objective" truth. This requirement in turn depends upon the philosophical belief that there is, or can be, something that has the desired property or properties that make up "objectivity." [Richard Weaver and other heavy-weight conservative theorists reach this sort of question; most conservatives don't even know it can be a question.]

Many,, perhaps most, conservatives would like to turn to some source of rock-solid objectivity, and find it in some mixture of God and nature. So the religious conservative believes that God has communicated his truths to us in the form of some sort of revelation. To this may be added the idea that "nature" provides us with the required objectivity as well.

Along comes Darwin, or for that matter, modern science as such, and finds absolutely nothing that looks like the objective moral truths that are needed. This just won't do, and thus conservatives, if they think this through, have to consider the extent to which they can accept modern science at all.

My own opinion is that a truly consistent conservatism can only be religious; it must, on the grounds of fundamental principles, reject modern science as both mistaken and morally dangerous.

Ah ..the voice of reason...
I must compliment Christopher Parish in his common sense rendering of the following points:

"For the creationists; Is it not possible that our creator gave all his/her creations the ability to learn, adapt, grow, and evolve so that we stand a chance of surviving changes of the environment in which to live?

For the evolutionists; Is it not possible that given how complex we and the universe in which we live are that everything we know and have yet to discover are the creations of some higher power or advanced being?"

I don't see how anyone can argue with the above stated.



Christopher Parish/Lin
"For the creationists; Is it not possible that our creator gave all his/her creations the ability to learn, adapt, grow, and evolve so that we stand a chance of surviving changes of the environment in which to live?"

Things learn, adapt, grow, evolve, that we know to some degree and can describe and explain. now assume a Creator. What does that add to our knowledge, our descriptions and explanations? Occam's Razor.

"For the evolutionists; Is it not possible that given how complex we and the universe in which we live are that everything we know and have yet to discover are the creations of some higher power or advanced being?"

It's interesting the evolutionary question is also framed from a creationist point of view. An evolutionary question would be, is it not possible that the complexity of like, the universe and everything emerged bottom up from the dynamics of simpler systems interacting? We see examples of this all around us, in ecosystems, the market place, democracies, language, thought itself. Where we see examples of the opposite, for example the top down big government social engineering of modern liberalism and socialism we see failure. Why do you want to conceive of God like that?

Evolutionists Are Not Scientists
They are practicing blind humanist theology.

The science we know today says evolution is impossible.

I will be retiring in three years. I will then travel the country confronting these evolutionary crack pots and publically humiliating them with all the scientific evidence that shows them to be hysterical, ignorant morons!

But is God Good?
Of course none of you have any proof as to the origin of the Universe. You can quote the Bible but you have no means of truly knowing if it is accurate even though you may believe it. At the cutting edge of quantum theory there is not a denial that a creative force is possible but there is a suspicion that a force that created more stars than there are grains of sand on the Earth would be unlike anything we can imagine and may not actually care what we think at all. If you believe in intelligent design then my next question would be "If there is a Supreme Creative force, how do you know it is benign or even knows of good or evil at all?"

lonestarblues & Gestell
lonestarblues

Why change the context of my second question in order to address it?

I agree we do see examples of bottom up evolution in nature. That being said is that enough to rule out the possibility of a creator? What if the bottom up evolution is the creation, and we are but results of such a creation?

See, my point which AndyR missed as he ventured off into semantics and side arguments is that we do not know enough to rule out either evolution or creation. We should be encouraging exploration of both theories in an effort to expand our knowledge in search of the truth.

By excluding one in favor of the other we handicap our efforts in seeking the truth.

The application of Ockham's Razor (http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node10.html) to the Evolution vs Creation debate the way you do is not the correct action to take because it is being applied to the cause, not the prediction of the competing theories.



Gestell

Your opinion is "that a truly consistent conservatism can only be religious; it must, on the grounds of fundamental principles, reject modern science as both mistaken and morally dangerous."

Then you have never met anyone like me.

I am a truly consistent conservative, yet I believe modern science is a great thing which has helped us advance in ways our ancestors couldn't imagine. I actually lean more towards evolution then creation because of the evidence, yet I have an open enough mind to not rule out the possibility that evidence of creation just has yet to be discovered.

My conservatism is based on the ideals and principals that we all should be treated fairly and equally, be responsible for our actions, not be dependant on government but work for that which we want or need, and be free to explore our individual dreams and goals as long as doing so doesn't impose on or take away another persons rights.

Freedom asks, Is God Good?
Freedom knight asks: "If there is a Supreme Creative force, how do you know it is benign or even knows of good or evil at all?"

Exactly, I believe, the sort of question we need to ask. For we can observe nature, observe as you say, “that a creative force is possible.” And that that creative force “would be unlike anything we can imagine...”

I agree the next logical question then is, ‘what or who is this force?” and then “is he benevolent or is he evil?” You are correct in your implication that this “force” need not necessarily be good or evil. So how do we know? How does he or it make himself or itself known?

The answer of course is the Bible. God in his word declares he is in fact that force of intelligent design. He tells us what he is like, he tells us he can be known, and he reveals to us his nature.

Creation points to a creator. The creator tells us about himself in a book called the Bible.

Christopher Parisho:
In a comment to AndyR you write: "If as you say the universe doesn't 'evolve' then explain how the grand canyon was formed from a flat plain"


I read an article in the New York Review of Books by Joan Didion where she wrote (regarding GW Bush's "faith-based" initiaves programs):

"...the administration now not only spoke of "faith-based" schools and "faith'based" charities and "faith-based" prisoner rehabilitation but also of faith-based national parks, which translated into authorizing the sale in the National Park Service's bookstores of GRAND CANYON: A DIFFERENT VIEW, the "different view" being that the Grand Canyon was created not by the continual movement of the Colorado River since the Tertiary Period but in the six days described in Genesis."

---------------------------------------------

I don't know about anybody else here, but I don't want my tax dollars going to "faith-based" National Parks bookstore books describing how the Grand Canyon was zapped into existence in a single day (of the "six days described in Genesis"). This is CHARLATANISM & we the taxpayers are footing the bill GWB is providing as a payoff to the evangelicals who helped elect him in 2000. What's next, a
"faith-based" fast-food chain adhering to the dietary Laws in the Book of Leviticus? KEEP RELIGION OUT OF POLITICS!

Evolutionsist are Afraid of Intel Design
Shouldn't science be open to investigate challenging questions? Isn't that what the scientific method is all about?

So when Michael Behe (Biochemist) proposes the concept of Irriducible Complexity when describing the flagellum of a cell or the complex eye, he is attacked by evolutionsist personally and riduculed. Even now, scientist have not appropriately addressed his specific challenges to macro evolution.

As a scientist, I am ashamed at the mantra that is preached by the evolutionary faithful. When someone dares to question their teachings, they are isolated, ridiculed and attacked on a personal level. When this occurs, evolution is no longer a scientific debate on how things might have occured, it becomes a hummanistic religion.

Back to politics. How did Mike Huckabee respond to Wolf Blitzer's question about evolution? He basically said he didn't know whether the world was created in 6 days of millions of years. What he did know, is that God created it.

AndyR
Very simply stated, if you don't understand the point of my query then you must be unaware that there is a controversy, and where the stasis of the controversy resides.

Christopher Parisho
"Why change the context of my second question in order to address it?"

Because, as I pointed out, your second question was the same as the first, it asked a creation question, not an evolution question. I'd already answer the second by answering the first. Simple as that. Why aren't you asking about my first response?

"I agree we do see examples of bottom up evolution in nature. That being said is that enough to rule out the possibility of a creator? What if the bottom up evolution is the creation, and we are but results of such a creation?"

Already answered. The Creator is said to have designed top down, but natural bottom up evolution is not designed but the product of natural forces. Such a creator would be pantheistic, Einstein's Spinoza's God. I don't rule out possibilities.

"See, my point ... is that we do not know enough to rule out either evolution or creation."

We know enough about evolution from the theory of evolution and the overwhelming evidence supporting and the lack of evidence falsifying it. Creation is easily falsified by known scientific facts and laws.

"We should be encouraging exploration of both theories in an effort to expand our knowledge in search of the truth."

I've explored these theories. I find, for example, Dr Henry Morris, a Creationist, of Young Earth species, claims that the craters of the Moon and Mars were created during the great battle between Lucifer and the archangels. Heck, that isn't even good religion, let alone science. I find that while, for example, Michael Behe questions random mutation explaining some complexity, he generally accepts the three pillars of Darwinian evolution, random mutation, natural selection and common descent. But he offers no testable hypotheses to explore.

...

Christopher Parisho
"By excluding one in favor of the other we handicap our efforts in seeking the truth."

Then by analogy by excluding evil and embracing good do we handicap efforts to be moral? But to the point, how can we find truth in lack of theory, hypothesis and knowledge that make up creationism? Creationism is largely a political complaint against evolutionary theory. It's like a business that can't compete so seeks political solution.

"The application of Ockham's Razor (http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node10.html) to the Evolution vs Creation debate the way you do is not the correct action to take because it is being applied to the cause, not the prediction of the competing theories."

From your link: "A more straightforward application of the Razor is when we are face with two theories which have the same predictions and the available data cannot distinguish between them. In this case the Razor directs us to study in depth the simplest of the theories. It does not guarantee that the simplest theory will be correct, it merely establishes priorities."

The theoretical "cause" adds nothing but an unnecessary assumption.

Isn't It Ironic?
People complain that Mike Huckabee believes the Bible, but then criticize hime for not believing in the Theory of Evolution.

reply to Christopher Parisho

Here's your final thought: "My conservatism is based on the ideals and principals that we all should be treated fairly and equally, be responsible for our actions, not be dependant on government but work for that which we want or need, and be free to explore our individual dreams and goals as long as doing so doesn't impose on or take away another persons rights."

So, what is the foundation for those principles of yours? That's what I'm getting at. Is it simply your own subjective opinion, not backed up by anything other than the fact that you hold it? Is it God's will, known from some source (nature, the Bible, etc.) Or is it somehow (any idea how?) embedded in the facts of the physical universe?

If conservatives invoke "nature," then they are on a collision course with half a millenium of modern physical science, which has not, as far as I'm aware, discovered something out there or in there that allows for judgments of good and bad to be objective in the sense that the measurement of the gravitational constant or the specification of the gas laws is objective.

If conservatives invoke "religion," then they need to show how and why this standard is to be understood. The human race has believed in a huge number of religions. Which one is true? The one you learned at your mother's knee? The one with the coolest Scriptures? Which one and why?

Halibut
The flaggelation cell is the argument that has ben trotted out every time creationists are asked to support their whole-earth-in-seven-days beliefs. It has been proven to be false over and over and over again, but Behe, Medved, and others continue to try to beat it back to life year after year.

If creationism is such a perfect idea, tell me, why is the flagellum the only "proof" anybody can ever cite?

Evolution - Clarence Darrow et al
It is disconcerting that another conservative does not believe in evolution. How can a scientifically training conservative take Ann Coulters opinions about the Venona Cables seriously if she doesn't even believe in evolution. The same applies to Mary. Her opinion is automatically devalued by mis-reading the tea leaves on this one.

halibut
"Shouldn't science be open to investigate challenging questions? Isn't that what the scientific method is all about?"

No. Scientific method limits science to questions whose answers (hypotheses) can be tested. Tell us, how is ID testable?

"So when Michael Behe (Biochemist) proposes the concept of Irriducible Complexity when describing the flagellum of a cell or the complex eye, he is attacked by evolutionsist personally and riduculed. Even now, scientist have not appropriately addressed his specific challenges to macro evolution."

Where was he attacked? You mean the papers that immediately followed on plausible pathways to the complexity flagellum and the poorly designed eye? His assumption was that simpler evolutionary development stages could not serve the same function, but as evolutionist have adequately shown, simpler structures do have functional value. If you have read Behe, you know he accepts the three pillars of Darwinian evolution: random mutation, natural selection, and common descent. Likely because he's read "29+ Evidences for Macroevolution" @ http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/sciproof.html .

"As a scientist, I am ashamed at the mantra that is preached by the evolutionary faithful."

Sure then as a scientist you have read Massimo Pigliucci or David Sloan Wilson. These contemporary evolutionists do nothing but argue about the theory of evolution, Wilson especially points how how reluctant academia is to let evolutionary theory in the door of psychology, sociology, economics. What's the mantra preached you're ashamed of?

...

Science vs. religion, one more time
The conflict between science and religion has been with us for hal a millenium; it's not going to go away. Scientists do not need religion as a form of explanation for the phenomena they study as scientists. One TH reader pointed out that nowhere in any science is there a need to say "and then a miracle occurs" to complete an explanation of something. The reason for this is that the physical sciences must use what is now often criticized as "naturalistic" explanation. Put simply, this means that natural events must have natural causes. If "explanations" that invoke God are supremely useful, we'd already see them used in scientific research. Scientists don't need religious explanations to explain evolution; any serious study of evolution as an explanatory strategy (a scientific "theory") will make this plain.

Now,if the question becomes "why is there a physical universe at all?" then, as virtually any scientist will acknowledge, physical science has no answer, and no way of asking the question in a manner that is scientific. Note: this is perfectly compatible with the "big bang" theory. This theory is a "how" theory, not a "why" theory.

Efforts to substitute "religious" explanations for "naturalistic" explanations in science are examples of profound conceptual confusion. If one chooses to believe that God is responsible for the existence of the universe, physical science can't refute this belief.

halibut
"When someone dares to question their teachings, they are isolated, ridiculed and attacked on a personal level."

What papers are you reading? The ones I read are all directed toward the scientific claims ID makes, or, better, the lack of scientific claims. The only one you've even mention is irreducible complexity, and it is not an explanation but merely a question. Where I do read about persecution is in the creationist literature coming out of the Discovery Institute.

"When this occurs, evolution is no longer a scientific debate on how things might have occured, it becomes a hummanistic religion."

While evolutionists have their sleeves rolled up doing scientific research, creationists like Phillip Johnson play politics. ID is more appropriately called the humanistic religion.

"What he did know, is that God created it."

Huckabee knew this or believed this? Major difference. If he knew this, do you know how he knows? What is his scientific theory? Can it be tested?

Christopher
So what you are saying is that we can't teach the possibility until evidence is discovered. Isn't that a catch 22?

Well, if we're going to spend rare education dollars and time for teaching something that some people think is possible, then why not teach poltergeist activity, the reality of flying saucers and the people who are kidnapped by aliens, colonies on Mars, or time travel?
Why stop with all powerful entities who create an unchanging universe in 7 days and the myth of dinosaurs?

Weird politics
What makes us liberals break into loud, derisive outbursts is our knowledge that there are actually Americans who believe that a definitive solution to the old conflict between science and religion is necessary for the governing of the United States. Millions of religious conservatives think that it makes a difference whether a creationist or an evolutionist sits in the Oval Office. Very, very weird.

Eventually religious conservatives will get around to the really controversial stuff. Judaism vs. Christianity, for instance. Which one is true? Or, within Christianity, Roman Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy vs. Protestantism. Or still further, Baptists vs. Methodists, Lutherans vs. Episcopalians. One more: transubstantiation vs. consubstantiation. Or: infant baptism? yes or no. Now we're getting down to what's truly important in governing our country. We liberals await, with a certain forboding, how far what is properly called "political theology" will go.

It's true
That there is no law against believing in a creation myth, or even that the sun revolves around the earth (although it was once against the law to say otherwise), but the reason issues like this are frustrating to me is that the creationist positions automatically aborts any need or interest in scientific inquiry, or even who we are or why we are the way we are.

It's a dead end intellectually and imaginitively, and that's not good (or fun) for anybody.

Secular Humanism
I dare say we ARE teaching religion in science class. The court established religion of Secular Humanism. Judged by the courts to be a religion in the 60s, (so they could get the tax exemption of a religious organization), now any display of religious nature on government property must have a "secular" purpose(lemmon test).

This lemmon test is a religiously neutural position?

This evolution fable is nothing more than the Genesis account of the Humanist Manifesto mask as science. But hey, don't take my word for it. Google Secular Humanism and read 1,2, and 3 and see what you come up with.

When
the calendar hit 2000, during the millenium, this country was full of people who believed that chaos would ensue and the world would come to an end. There were entire cottage industries who benefitted financially from this faith, going from town to town to give "seminars" on how to survive.

This issue reminds me of that, because there was absolutely no hard science that predicted the end of the world, and people didn't even seem to realize that it wasn't going to be midnight at the same time everyplace on the globe. But so many people were so invested, and often quoted the bible as proof of their beliefs.

The difference between that and this is that time ultimately proved them wrong - since that's not about to happen in the case of evolution, I would say that creation-believers should go on believing in whatever gets them throuh the night, but keep it out of the schools.

Touj.
"If creationism is such a perfect idea, tell me, why is the flagellum the only 'proof' anybody can ever cite?"

In fact it is not used to prove ID, for ID offers no theory, it is used to disprove evolutionary theory. Scientists like Behe study microbiology and come across unexplained complex microbiological structures like flagellum and, instead of researching it like a scientist would, exclaims it cannot be explained, it's irreducible!

To which incredulity he holds fast despite other scientists like Kenneth R. Miller in "The Flagellum Unspun"* reducing irreducible complexity to simplicity: "If we are able to search and find an example of a machine with fewer protein parts, contained within the flagellum, that serves a purpose distinct from motility, the claim of irreducible complexity is refuted. As we have also seen, the flagellum does indeed contain such a machine, a protein-secreting apparatus that carries out an important function even in species that lack the flagellum altogether. A scientific idea rises or falls on the weight of the evidence, and the evidence in the case of the bacterial flagellum is abundantly clear."

Miller, a Christian, concludes: "…the intelligent design movement are best understood as clamorous and disappointing double failures – rejected by science because they do not fit the facts, and having failed religion because they think too little of God."


* http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/design2/article.htm l

This is but one refutation. For others see http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html

Gestell
Good point about the dilemma of whether to put a creationist or evolutionist in the white house. Looking at it that way, it probably does matter what people think.


lonestar
You're absolutely right, you said it better than I did (and without all the typos.)

The reason I put the quotation marks around "proof" as I couldn't come up with the word for "mis-characterized as proof." But I have never watched a creationist on TV or listened to one on the radio that they didn't come up with the little flagellum with the motor.

It is interesting to me to think about why science and religion are always at odds, and have been in history, and how the component of power is built into it (sort of like the natural conflict between fascistic or oppressive rulers and teachers, intellectuals, philosophers, who are always the first to be arrested).

PS lonestar
Thanks for the detailed answer to the flagellum as well as the link.

saltydog
"I dare say we ARE teaching religion in science class. The court established religion of Secular Humanism. Judged by the courts to be a religion in the 60s, (so they could get the tax exemption of a religious organization), now any display of religious nature on government property must have a "secular" purpose(lemmon test)."

First, the court established no such thing, the comment was made the 1961 case, Torcaso v. Watkins, by Justice Hugo Black in a footnote, which are not regarded as precedent setting.

Second, secular humanism, like its origin Christian humanism, rejects man's nature, evolutionary theory in particular and science in general.

While pointing out an earlier confusion between methodological materialism and metaphysical materialism, I predicted Sunday, February, 17, 2008 11:39 AM that eventually someone would as well confuse methodological materialism with dialectical materialism. And now we have it.

Lonstarblues
I suppose you would have to take the rejection of evolutionary theory up with the Secular Humanist. Because their websites are full of propaganda promoting the faith.

What difference does it make?

AndyR writes: Sunday, February, 17, 2008 3:17 PM
Jim
Jim: "My question, that I have asked many time, is never answered, and the subject is always changed right quick. Where did that little speck of something come from"

That's a chemistry question, Jim, not a biology question.

"...and how did that beach just happen to be there at the right time."

And that's a geology question!

==========

No, those are questions asked of someone who believes that the universe was started by a speck of something that landed on something, sometime, but has no idea what it was or where.

Now I have another question. What difference does it make if I or anyone else believes in evolution, or creation? How does that effect the price of bread tomorrow?

What if you could prove absolutely that evolution somehow created the universe. How would that improve our way of life?

This is just another of those questions that are just fodder for arguments, and discussions. It makes no difference in the daily life of anyone, or anything, how the universe, and all that is on it, was started in the first place.

Do I believe in Evolution? Well, just look at the sizes of uniforms needed for the Army in WW I, vs the uniform sizes needed today. Just look at the details of people and animals and fruits and vegetables, over the millennia, and of course they have changed, and it can be said they evolved.

My only question is how did this all begin. But that question is asked just to make the “evolution-started-it-all-idiots,” shut up. They can’t answer the first question that must be answered before anything they say is to be believed.


Teaching sensibly about all this
I have no problem whatever with courses about religion in public schools. I think students should know about the histories and doctrinal contents of the world's religions. What will not do is to bring creationism and ID into science curricula; they are not science and do not belong there. The absence of "religious explanations" as a standard explanatory strategy suffices to show that the sciences do not need them.

What religious people who advocate the inclusion of religion in science curricula want is to have their belief in some universal, comprehensive doctrine, that not only explains what there is and why, but leaves a really important place for we humans and our concerns vindicated.

I think this want is quite normal; most people have it in some form or other. They want to have absolute certainty that they understand their place in the universe. Religion can indeed provide sustenance for this, but science must stop short of this goal, for it lies beyond the reach of science.

As I said earlier, science is about "how," religion (or philosophy) is about "why" and perhaps "who." But, until the physicists running particle accelerators start using the bible to explain what happens in their experiments, I'll continue to call for strict separation of religion and science in schools.

Lonestar
Take note of the manifesto section 3 if you want.


http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=main&page= manifesto

Since there are so many "theories"
on the table... "Big Bang", "Intelligent Design", evolution.... I would like to offer a sensible suggestion.

Evangelical Creationism proposes that a "Creator" (who remains himself Creator-less, or Uncreated) creates the universe & earth & all the things in it in "six days" (one day taken for "rest"). There is a "young earth Creationism" Museum in Kentucky that espouses a "literal reading" of the Book of Genesis. They've taken all the who begat whos in Genesis & counted backwards to tell us that the earth is 6-10 thousand years old (never mind fossils & radio carbon dating).

Large tableaux in this Kentucky Creationist Museum show Biblical scenes of Adam & Eve walking around in the Garden of Eden, alongside dinosaurs. Yes, a variety of dinosaurs. Since science has proved the existence of dinosaurs, the young earth creationists feel compelled to add them into the Garden of Eden, though ignore the fact that they died off 65 and a half million years ago as best science can tell.

Young earth creationists assure you that Adam & Eve & dinosaurs co-existed in the Garden, but in the time of Noah, the dinosaurs were "too big" to climb aboard the Ark & so perished in the Flood.

---------------------------------------------

As a starting point, can we please all declare this theory gibberish? It cheapens scientific discourse.

Thank You.

Will writes:
I don't know about anybody else here, but I don't want my tax dollars going to "faith-based" National Parks bookstore books describing how the Grand Canyon was zapped into existence in a single day (of the "six days described in Genesis").
****

I agree.

If a denomination wishes to propose such a claim they should do so with donations not tax payer funding. If they feel it is fact they are free to fund a scientific study to establish it as true, again with non-tax funds.

I see this as another example where the conservatives in power in D.C. have lost their way in regard to the principals and ideals the party was founded. If you read my last blog I hold the GOP just as responsible for this as I do the individual conservatives in office.

As for the 6 days of Genesis, when ever anyone suggests that the earth was created in 6 days I ask; How fast was the Earth spinning back then? Or are we speaking in Earth days or God's days?

It is all a mater of perspective.

If the Earth was spinning so slow that whole eons passed in the time it took for the sun to rise and then set, then yes the 6 days claim could be true.

Or,

For God days may be much longer, on the scale of geologic time from our perspective.

I don't agree with the literal translations and belief of the Bible. I believe it is a book written to convey the word of God in terms that we much lower level beings can comprehend. Instead of taking it literally detail by detail, I go by the intent of the message it contains.

@LoneStarBlues
lonestarblues writes: Sunday, February, 17, 2008 11:48 AM
cornpone harry
"But never does one species of plant or animal evolve into another distinct and different species-as MACRO EVOLUTION would have the gullible to believe."

Harry, check out "29+ Evidences for Macroevolution" @ http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/sciproof.html and let us know what exactly is it you dispute there.
------------------------------------------
Lonestar,

i agree with everything you say EXCEPT: your facts on the salmanders are not examples of my definition of Macro Evolution.

what you describe with the salamander is micro evolution-because the salamanders remain salamaders ie, the same kind of creature after all that miscegnation. :)

Get back with me when you have evidence of a salmader evolving into a crocodile-over as many years as is needed- Thats what I would call macro evolution.

Our disagreement is purely over the definition of micro and vs macro evolution

By the way, Biblical fundamentalists, unless they are crazy, would not quarrel with your salmander copulating with, and turning into a (Gasp) different type of SALAMANDER!!

I don't see that as astonishing or even significant,to be perfectly honest.

sorry if I sound like a curmudgeon, there is no offense intended.

I just think this type of so-called evolution is a tempest in a teapot-and it certainly isnt what upsets me as a Christian Fundamentalist.

Thanks for your information.






Andy lacks understanding
when he writes:

"At any rate, evolution has nothing to do with the complexity of the universe, or even how life began on earth (abiogenesis)."

Noted atheist, evolutionist, and cosmologist, Carl Sagan, constantly talked about each of us being made of "star stuff". The unified theory of evolution is that the universe was born of its own volition and the elements in it became more complex over time. Eventually galaxies formed of their own volition, then planets, then the environment necessary for the first amino acids.

Then came protein, then RNA, then DNA, then, not too long after, guys like Andy.

As the pedantic argument goes, "Macroevolution is simply a chain of microevolution events."

And with this statement, all problems with evolutionary theory, be it cosmological, abiogenesis, or biological, are swept away. Obviously, macroevolution occurs since we see microevolutionary changes all the time (/sarcasm). Stars change from blue to red, sand erodes on the seashore, antibiotics become resistant, etc., so therefore, this all proves that the universe and the life in it evolved without the direction of a designer.

Sorry people, you don't get to make that argument. In order to be scientific, it must be PROVEN that one species can turn into another species. Pointing to finch beak alterations is not enough (and anyone who takes the scientific method seriously knows this.)

Bottom line, there is no proof for the TofE nor is there any for chemical evolution (abiogenesis). People who think otherwise are either ignorant or selling something.

@lonestar blues
Actually your salamander watchers could have proven that kind of "macro evoluton" by just ruminating upon well known facts:

wolves inter breed with domestic dogs even though they are of a different species.

coyotes, domestic dogs and wolves will gladly interbreed with the other given the opportunity-and produce pups that are quite different looking than a so-called pure bred dog, coyote or wolf. Sceintist here ib the southeat where i live are trying to "save: the red wolf. Thats fine with noie-Ilke wolves. But they arte running into two major obstacles:

hunters anbd Coyotes.

Coyotes?? Yes!

You see whne they copulate, their offspring look like neither parent , and the scientists are concerned because the ubiquitous coyotes are mating with the red wolves and thus the red wolves are now begining to look very different from their very recent ancestors of only ten years ago.

Only David Duke and goofy scientists would be alarmed.

Factoid: a dog is a dog is a dog-and only a scientist with a closed head trauma would spend years documenting what the rest of us have always known: a dog is a dog is a dog-even if it physically looks "different". Or a salamander is a salamander is a salamander.

And, yes, a salamander is a salamander is a salamander-even if its a different size and color pattern and has different looking feet, tails or gills than its great, great, great.....grandfather.

Thats not evolution of any significance. And I certainly dont think it's a change worthy of the adjective "Macro".

Now, that may be the official scientific "definition" of this variation among the same kinds of creatures, but if it is, it's aggravated battery on the meaning of the adjective,"macro".

These small changes brought about by interbreeding of species within the same genus is unremarkable.



Beeblebrox
When somebody says we are made of "star stuff" all that means is the same "ingredients" that make up your body (carbon, oxygen, calcium, iron, H2O, etc) are what's found in Mother Earth.

Believing in evolution as I do, I believe I COME FROM THE EARTH; everything that is found in me is found in the earth. The evolutionary journey from sea to land, from (eventual) monkey to man, the earth binds us all together. The earth is the building blocks material.

Now, the earth is also a cooled star. All planets are cooled stars. The theory goes that a long time from now, the sun will "cool" also and become a planet. Basically all the stuff in the universe is (more or less) the same materials as on earth (look at the periodic table of elements). Anyway, the stuff of the universe is the stuff of the earth is the stuff of animals (us included). We are all "star stuff". Humans, plants, Venus, the Big Dipper, we are all made form a finite material pool.

Judging by the responses some of you
are either not reading my initial post post or understanding it.

Maybe that is my fault for letting Andy side track me with not so great pro-evolution arguments which by attempting to correct I made myself into a creationist in the eyes of some.

Gestell, lonestarblues, Touj., and others make good points when it comes to science, what has been established as accepted scientific fact, what hasn't had any scientific establishment, and what should or should not be taught in science class.

I get the feeling though that some of you are not able to cope with the idea of someone who believes in science but leaves their mind open to the possibility that religion may well have aspects of it which are true.

Similarly the idea of a conservative who isn't driven by faith, but is instead guided by fact and logic is hard to accept. Maybe those of you in this group are so analytical that such a person doesn't fit into your preconceived molds or set of labels you have for others.

I think it is wrong of religion to dismiss and attack science if the accepted theories or laws do not agree with religious beliefs. I believe as with the proof that the Earth is not round, or the center of the universe, religion will someday have to accept that evolution is true.

On the same note I think it is wrong of science to dismiss and attack religion or the beliefs of those who have faith.

There is room in our hearts and minds for both science and religion. Where the two conflict we each have to make the decision which is right. Are we all going to make the same decision when faced with such a conflict? No. Is that alright? Yes.

Where it goes wrong is when we impose that onto others who believe otherwise.

Black and White rant
From the mind of Dubya comes, "yer either with us or against us". Her last statement should have been more clear. She says, "Religious faith and scientific evolution are mutually exclusive intellectual, emotional, and psychic constructs. Get over it!"

What she should have said, based on her earlier assertions: "Religious faith and science are mutually exclusive intellectual, emotional, and psychic constructs. Get over it!"

In other words, the world is either magic or real. Get over it!

As intelligent human beings, we don't have to accept the ideas that either the universe is a huge science project or a totally uninspired accident. Quite likely, the truth is somewhere in between those bizarre extremes.

Where is the dirt from the Grand Canyon?


Something I have always wondered about. I have visited the Grand Canyon, both North and South, 12 to 15 times at least. I have seen most of the Colorado River from Glen Canyon, down to Yuma.

Now, the Grand Canyon is a mile deep, but the Colorado River now flows rather slowly on a generally slight slope. That is, there are no high water falls along the way. So my question is, before the Canyon was “cut” how did the Colorado River flow in that area, so that it could cut the Canyon over the centuries, and longer?

It seems to me that there had to be a mile-high water fall, somewhere along that river, so the river could flow and cut the Canyon.

Then I wonder why the River is about the same level as the countryside for miles in either direction, after it gets to the border of Arizona and California. As far as I know, the current River is not flowing over a steel hard rocky base, so why did it cut the Grand Canyon through hard rock and stone, and is flowing on the level most of the way from the Hoover Dam to Yuma?

Just wondered. People, who should know, that I have asked, get a shocked look on their face.

One story I enjoyed. A few miles to the southeast from the Grand Canyon, there is a high mountain range. I have forgotten the name of those mountains.

One time as we entered the Park, the guard was laughing and said that a tourist had just asked him what they did with all the dirt they removed, when they dug the canyon. The guard laughing pointed and told them, “Right there, where you see those high mountains.” And he thinks they believed him, and maybe they did. People are like that.

I remember one time a lady asked me what those huge paper bags were doing, high in the date Palm Trees. (They cover the fruit, to protect it from birds, etc.)

I said, “Those are paper bag trees, where the Grocery Store grows the grocery bags.” She said, “Oh, I didn’t know that.”


What makes the most sense?
Either evolutionary theory is accurate, or it is a vast conspiracy by thousands of people spanning over a century who have hijacked the same scientific method responsible for the cars we drive and the computer I type these words with, in to further their evil desire to eliminate faith in God.
The questions about "irreducible complexities" and "transitional forms" have been answered, except for those unwilling to read. Of course, troublesome details like nipples on men and the poor design of our spines have to be overlooked by ID, too. The core of the ID argument is fear; a fear that we may have to chart the course of our own lives; that we may never know exactly where the universe came "from", why it is here, or where it is headed. For those who need a "moral authority", I suggest more reading, in the Bible itself. Isaiah 45:7 has God saying, "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the LORD do all these things." Do I want the one who responsible for calamity to be my "moral anchor?" It was God who gave Satan permission to torment Job, the results of which, being All-knowing, God should have known. Most people have never considered the implications of omnipotence: The "non-actions" of an omnipotent being produce as much of an effect as an action. If God said, "I will no longer interfere, from this point on, in the affairs of men", the result would be the same as if God said, "From this point on, I want the affairs of men to seem as if I wasn't interfering with them." I do believe that God has a plan, and that this plan includes the triumph of reason and truth over ignorance and superstition. Rather than actors in a morality play, the outcome of which God already knows, our consciousnesses may be the tools through which God admires His own creation, in all its aspects.

Beeblebrox lacks understanding, not me.
Beeblebrox: "Andy lacks understanding when he writes:'At any rate, evolution has nothing to do with the complexity of the universe, or even how life began on earth (abiogenesis).'"

Sorry, but this is pretty straightforward stuff. abiogenesis and evolution are, by definition, separate subjects. And it deals with biology. The universe deals with physics and cosmology, entirely separate scientific disciplines.

So it's not me who lacks scientific understanding.

And Jim, you're welcome to ask 'how it all began', but you're asking questions about what came before life, and therefore what came before biology. So, again, it is not a question about evolution. Don't get me wrong, it's a good question! But completely off topic.

Christopher Parisho replies...
Christopher: "See, my point which AndyR missed as he ventured off into semantics and side arguments..."

Sorry, that won't wash. It was YOU attempting to use semantics. You were using the colloquial use of the word 'theory' to denigrate evolution, when scientists mean something very different when discussing the 'theory of evolution'.

You also used the word evolution itself in its metaphorical, non-biological sense, to talk about 'the universe evolving' etc, when the article and Mick Huckabee were both discussing evolution in its scientific sense.

So please don't pretend that it was ME using semantics.

Get with the program!
If people would take a week off from this kindergarten playground arguement of evolution vs creationism and study prophesy at hallindsey.com you would realize that the world is on a timer and prophesy is being fufilled everyday. Then this argument would be put in proper perspective as inane and futile. If you know what is going on in the big picture, that fight between so called intelligent people could be called what it truly is and that is a minor diversionary tactic from the truth.

saltydog
"I suppose you would have to take the rejection of evolutionary theory up with the Secular Humanist. Because their websites are full of propaganda promoting the faith."

Find me one and I will.

Hey, I looked up this Humanist Manifesto you posted about. Why'd you neglect to state they call themselves "religious humanists" instead of secular? They're really no more than an offshoot of Christian Socialism. For an explanation of how they reject science see Ludwig von Mises' _Socialism_ @ http://www.econlib.org/library/Mises/msSContents.html .

cornpone harry
"i agree with everything you say EXCEPT: your facts on the salmanders are not examples of my definition of Macro Evolution. what you describe with the salamander is micro evolution-because the salamanders remain salamaders ie, the same kind of creature after all that miscegnation. :) Get back with me when you have evidence of a salmader evolving into a crocodile-over as many years as is needed- Thats what I would call macro evolution."

Agree, and already said so, one, that micro- v macro-evolution is biologically a difference in degree, and two, that the evidence does not support and evolutionary theory never made any claims about your creationist definition of kinds ("the same kind of creature").

"Our disagreement is purely over the definition of micro and vs macro evolution"

Agree again, yours is a creationist definition, derived from the Bible, mine is a modern biological definition, derived from science.

"By the way, Biblical fundamentalists, unless they are crazy, would not quarrel with your salmander copulating with, and turning into a (Gasp) different type of SALAMANDER!! I don't see that as astonishing or even significant,to be perfectly honest."

So then you understand evolutionary theory and have no more arguments with it. Great!

"I just think this type of so-called evolution is a tempest in a teapot-and it certainly isnt what upsets me as a Christian Fundamentalist."

Agreed, once more. I don't think most fundamentalists do, it's only a few who raise the tempest in a teapot and politicize what should be a scientific debate argument.

FAVORLESS 1
But then they'd have nothing to justify themselves with.

Beeblebrox
"Sorry people, you don't get to make that argument. In order to be scientific, it must be PROVEN that one species can turn into another species. Pointing to finch beak alterations is not enough (and anyone who takes the scientific method seriously knows this.) Bottom line, there is no proof for the TofE nor is there any for chemical evolution (abiogenesis). People who think otherwise are either ignorant or selling something."

See my post to compone harry.

Bottom line is science does get to define the theory of evolution and that theory makes no claims whatsoever about one creationist kind turning into another because the evidence does not support such nonsense, in fact the evidence falsifies it and evolutionary theory rejects it.

In short your argument about speciation is specious.

Moreover, science does not claim to prove anything. It's in the business of formulating explanatory and predictive hypotheses about the world around us, and then either corroborating or falsifying those with data collected in the lab or field. So why are you even talking about proof?

cornpone harry
"wolves inter breed with domestic dogs even though they are of a different species"

Then by definition they are not different species. From The Wolfdog Resource @ http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/ : "The wolfdog, also know as the wolf-dog hybrid and wolf hybrid, is a mix between a wolf and a dog. Genetically, the wolf and the dog are the same species."

So what's your point?

"And, yes, a salamander is a salamander is a salamander-even if its a different size and color pattern and has different looking feet, tails or gills than its great, great, great.....grandfather."

Like many creationists, you're not talking about biological species but creationist kinds.

"Thats not evolution of any significance."

That's right, and that's all evolutionary theory is about, simple as that, no more. So like you pointed out earlier, what's your beef with evolutionary theory then?

"Now, that may be the official scientific 'definition' of this variation among the same kinds of creatures, but if it is, it's aggravated battery on the meaning of the adjective,'macro'."

And why is that? Because you don't like it? Micro-, when used, simply means small scale, generally at the level of variation of alleles in a population, and macro-, again when used, simply means large scale, generally at the level of phenotype expression in a population. Truth be known, evolutionists do not generally use the terms but simply call it evolution.

"These small changes brought about by interbreeding of species within the same genus is unremarkable."

Then why the extensive remarks against it? BTW, species cannot interbreed or by definition they are not separate species.

Christopher Parisho
"I get the feeling though that some of you are not able to cope with the idea of someone who believes in science but leaves their mind open to the possibility that religion may well have aspects of it which are true."

Earlier I cited Kenneth Miller, an evolutionist who is a devout Christian. I cited Micheal Behe, microbiologist and Christian. How about Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, who came out just a while ago and stated that based on what they now know about genetic similarities, he accepts common descent. These are all examples of scientists who leave their minds open to religion.

Science simply does not delve into religion, except, as Victor Stenger argues, where religion makes scientific claims. In such cases it is entirely appropriate to apply scientific method and either corroborate or falsify the claims. Otherwise, I do not know of one scientist I've ever read, and I've read many, who does not have a religious or philosophic view about the meaning of life, the universe and everything else.

"Similarly the idea of a conservative who isn't driven by faith, but is instead guided by fact and logic is hard to accept."

...

Christopher Parisho
...

Well, sorry then, but I consider myself a skeptical conservative along lines of say Heather Mac Donald as she explains @ http://www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_08_28/article14.html : "Skeptical conservatives—one of the Right’s less celebrated subcultures—are conservatives because of their skepticism, not in spite of it. They ground their ideas in rational thinking and (nonreligious) moral argument.... Conservative atheists and agnostics support traditional American values. They believe in personal responsibility, self-reliance, and deferred gratification as the bedrock virtues of a prosperous society." Or Larry Arnhart, author of _Darwinian Conservatism_, which argues "Conservatives need Charles Darwin. They need him because a Darwinian
science of human nature supports conservatives in their realist view of human imperfectibility and their commitment to ordered liberty as rooted in nature, custom, and prudence." (http://www.imprint.co.uk/books/Arnhart-intro.pdf).

"On the same note I think it is wrong of science to dismiss and attack religion or the beliefs of those who have faith."

It doesn't. Care to cite an example, not of a scientist giving personal opinions, but a scientist giving scientific opinions that attack religion.

"There is room in our hearts and minds for both science and religion. Where the two conflict we each have to make the decision which is right. Are we all going to make the same decision when faced with such a conflict? No. Is that alright? Yes."

Agreed. Science explains what is, partially, tentatively, probabilistically. It is up to us to make moral choices of what ought to be.

Science and religion
What makes religion so useful and a source of strength for so many is that you do have a source that provides guidance on morals and ethics and how to live, etc.

Science does not provide that. For the non-scientist, science is interesting, and some sciences do affect our lives (such as chemistry, electronics and other technical sciences, medicine, and so forth). For the most part, however, science never becomes more than just something interesting to talk about or read about.

Science is also in a neverending state of flux (or change) and therefore unreliable as a source of comfort or even stability.

Curtal Friar

"Science is unreliable as a course of comfort or stability." This may be the most daft statement I've ever read on Townhall.

Tell me, Curtal Friar, in the last ten years have you flown on an airplane, driven a car, traveled over a bridge, used an anti-biotic, worn glasses, ridden in an elevator, used a computer, heated or cooled your home, or watched television?

Generally pretty reliable processes, in my experience at least.

Jack, Jack
Jack writes:

"Tell me, Curtal Friar, in the last ten years have you flown on an airplane, driven a car, traveled over a bridge, used an anti-biotic, worn glasses, ridden in an elevator, used a computer, heated or cooled your home, or watched television?"


Wow, it really gets old when people don't really read what you've written.

Jack, go back and read my post and you will see that I acknowledged several ways that science does affect our lives. I mentioned "chemistry, electronics and other technical sciences, and medicine", just to name a few. Of course, we are affected by science and scientific discovery.

The point of my post was that science offers us little in the way of philosophical or ethical or moral truth.

Also, like it or not, people really don't take comfort in change. They may like change now and then, but what brings people real comfort is the familiar.

Science is generally in too much of a state of flux to be of any use in the way of comfort.

Do ya get it, Jack? Or shall I have to simplify my language even more?

what's good for children
I'm glad Grabar reminded us of a central point: is teaching evolution good for children? Adults can debate the subtleties of evolution and morality endlessly, but can children do the same? No. Maybe we could raise the future level of discourse on this issue by teaching students both points of view and the facts that support each. At issue in the Scopes trial was whether other points of view on methods of origins were to be included. In my opinion, today one view is all that is allowed in the public classroom, evolution.

Curt Friar
I think it is you who have not read what you wrote.

You write that science is "unreliable as a source of comfort or even stability". I suggest this is simply untrue. Science provides a tremendous amount of comfort and stability. The realities I listed are just a few of the millions of ways that science provides comfort and stability. My 80 year old father in law is greatly comforted by the knowledge the medicine he takes is prolonging his life.

My friend Steve, who drives over to visit his aged mother every other day, depends on reliable transportation, reliable bridge and highway design, excellent medical care, reliable communication and so on. All of these things are reliable science: they provide a great deal of confort and stability and you can multiply that the millions of people who access and depend on such things. This comfort and stability are very real and in many ways, very ethical/moral.

Try being the parent of a child who have been in a serious accident that science does not offer comfort.

Now, it may be true that science doesn't provide the human race with moral, philosophical or ethical absolutes. Given that science never seeks to do so, your claim is essentially meaningless, equivalent to saying that bagels with cream cheese do not provide such absolutes. So?


BC
BOTH points of view? You mean there are only two? Which two would those be? I know one of them would be the generally accpeted scientific view. WOUld the other one be the Christian creation myth? Or woudl it be the Native American Creation Myth. Or the Hindu? Animist?

I am just trying to get it clear in my head.

both points of view
Jack, I'm okay with teaching the other factual points of view as well. My earlier comment refers to the two major points of view. However, I certainly don't support teaching myths to students.

The Core of the Conflict
The core of the conflict between science and religion is that science do not seek to answer the questions posed by religion. However, science does have the power to undermine the tenets of religion when such tenets are held to have literal rather than philosophical truth.

It is no accident that the opposition to evolution (and much science) comes almost entirely from fundamentalist Christians who believe in the literal truth of the Bible. Science is a threat because it can disprove the idea that the earth is only 6 or 7 thousand years old, among other things.

When people make a decision to believe in the literal truth of such a complex narrative, they are banking all of their comfort and stability on a house of cards. If ONE thing in the Bible turns out not to be true, the whole thing comes crashing down. Science can only be a threat to what is in reality an incredibly shaky construct.





BC

But the Christian creation story IS a myth. Or, at least, it has no basis in science. If you woudl support the teaching of Chrisitan creationism, then you must necessariyl support the teaching of all the other thousands of creation stories.

Alternatively, we can teach the scientific consensus and leave the mythology OUT of the science class.

BC
There are no facts that support creationism. Not one. Moreover, I have not seen one supporter of creationsim provide one, either on this thread or any book, theme park, or post.


not proposing teaching religion
I'm not proposing teaching religion or the debate between science and religion. As adults we have the luxury of experience and time to study what supports our views or argue about what doesn't. Sixth graders are not able to comprehend what we are discussing.

I think young science students should be taught the facts as known and allowed to be aware of all theories that claim to know our origins. As long as scientific facts are lifted up over the theory, then that will help establish in them a educated and scientific mind.

Will
You said "When somebody says we are made of "star stuff" all that means is the same "ingredients" that make up your body (carbon, oxygen, calcium, iron, H2O, etc) are what's found in Mother Earth."

Not just mother earth, actually, - also mother moon, mother mars, mother sirius, mother pleides galaxy, mother milky way and all the rest!

BC
Again, there are no facts that support Creationism. when you say that shoolchildren should be taught all ideas about the origins of the universe so they can make up there own minds, you are just saying that they should be presented with scientific evidence alongside of cultural myth, which should also be presented as science.

Why not teach them that up there among the planets is a heaven for good people when they die, and in the center of earth is a hell with brimstone and suffering. Why not tell them that humans can rise up after being dead for three days, or that a man in a red suit flies through the air on christmas and jumps down their chimneys? It's no different.

BC: Welcome to the Club
The rational minds on Townhall welcome you to the "don't try to stuff your creationism nonsense into the science class." club. I think.

Are you saying that Creationism SHOULD be taught in teh science class under the guise of students being "allowed to be aware of all theories that claim to know our origins."

If that's the case, consider the invitation recalled.




But I agree
with Mellors, that there is no reason not to teach religion, in fact I think sixth graders are more than capable of understanding the differences among Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, or Animism - I think they should know those differences, infact.

But this is a comparative religion studies course we're talkng about, they shouldn't have to decide in science glass whether biological osmosis is the passage of chmicals through a membrane to produce energy or whether it is a act pulled off by a divine force in the sky.

Grabar Misleads
One thing Richard Weaver disliked was the spurious use of rhetoric. Unfortuantely for Grabar, she has two serious problems with doing exactly that. She writes: "But like all scientific theories, the jury is still out on this one, as many learned proponents of intelligent design affirm."

In fact, there is no serious intelligent design challenge to the vast amount of evidence that supports evolution. The jury is NOT "out" as she says.

Earlier, she writes "And that was what the Tennessee lawmakers objected to: the promotion of Darwin’s ideas as moral guidance.". This is simply untrue. Tennesse lawmakers banned the teaching of evolution because it was a challenge to the literal truth of the Bible. The was and is NO attempt by scientists to postulate the theory of evolution as a source of mroal guidance.


To calm.Touj:
I don't really want to debate Creationism, I was rather hoping you'd agree that it's important for students to be taught that good scientists should be open-minded.


BC
What you write to touj sounds reasonable, but what that means in practice has been problematic. Too often, what you say has been used as a code for brinign creationism into the science class.

First Create, Then Evolve
AndyR writes: Monday, February, 18, 2008 3:16 AM

And Jim, you're welcome to ask 'how it all began', but you're asking questions about what came before life, and therefore what came before biology.

=========
You say, “… … therefore what came before biology.” Does that mean that biology explains evolution, and that something existed before evolution started? Never heard one of you admit that before.

Well, no one denies that things change (evolve) as years go by, but most evolutionists don’t even admit that something had to be created before something could evolve.

As your type always uses as an example, the Grand Canyon proves the earth is very old. Well, no one has bothered to answer my question asked at 1:14 AM.

I want to know how the Colorado River knew how to flow up hill, and wear down the hard rock mountains, but then same river knew how to flow gently for hundreds of miles along what is now the border between Calif and Ariz.

Perhaps you would call it evolution, when the Colorado River broke its banks, and filled a low spot in the Desert, that is now called The Salton Sea. Of course if mere men had not stopped the overflow, the whole of southeast California would be much different. It would have evolved.

Since it is called the survival of the fittest, then I guess the building of the Hoover Dam is the result of evolution. The power and machines of the fittest, mere men, overcame the power of dirt, stone, and water.

BC
Should good pastor, preachers, minister and the like be open minded and allow for the teaching of evolution in religious classroom and Sunday school?

Why?
Why does everyone get their panties in a bunch over what constitutes, if your lucky, one hour of instruction in a 12 year eduction?

I just don't get it.

Talk about making a mountain out of molehill.

Where's the beef?
Two things:
1. Evolution has NOTHING to do with morality. Any attempt to connect them would need to be supported by facts; such as, creationists give more to charity than evolutionists, or creationists commit fewer crimes than evolutionists. Barring real facts - SHUT UP!

2. Creationism is religion, not science, and therefore has no place in the public school system. The moment that creationsim's retarded stepbrother ID has a shred of scientific evidence, then, and only then, should we see it in the schools.

Wrapping up...

I applaud discussion and debate. But in the abscence of serious scientific data to support ID, there is no reason for debate to occur. It would be like my debating my 5 year old on why she should brush her teeth before going to bed. There is no debate - there is only fact from non fact.

Disagreeing with Huckabee
ronwik writes: Sunday, February, 17, 2008 9:48 AM
GOD, AND MIKE HUCKABEE HATERS
The Liberal God Haters in the U.S. don't just necessarily believe in evolution, but they do believe in hating God. They love to hate Mike Huckabee right now because he will not waver on his faith to suit them and their God Hating agendas. Most people in America who do like Huckabee and have respect for him because of his unwavering faith and commitment to run for President despite all the odds, are afraid to vote for him because someone they know might think they're wierd or something.
---------
No, actually everyone I know in Arkansas disagrees with Huckabee because he is a PRO-SLAVERY candidate that has been complicit with the previous two or three administrations in Arkansas importing as many illegal aliens as possible to deflate an already depressed wage table within his state. Also, the many outrageous acts that continuously take place in Rogers, Arkansas (drug trafficking, sex trafficking, meth production, outright slavery) has made all my friends and family in Arkansas discount Huckabee as even the dog catcher. Any Christian that condones the acts he has allowed need to make sure they read 1 Timothy a little closer. Huckabee is a disgrace to Baptist associations throughout America.

Jim
Jim: "Does that mean that biology explains evolution, and that something existed before evolution started? Never heard one of you admit that before."

Eh? How could it be otherwise? Evolution concerns how life developed (not how it began). 'Something' existed before evolution started? Well obviously. The universe is billions of years old. Life has only existed on earth for a small portion of this. First came physics, then chemistry, then biology. ALL biologists know this. What's to admit here?

admiarable
There is something admirable about this column. Usually attacks on evolution these days have the pretense that there is some scientific problem with the theory. People either with an ignornace of science, or a willingness to deceive (possibly themselves) argue that this or that routine thing represents a crisis for evolution.

Grabar does not make such a suggestion. In fact her use of Socrates seems purposely intended to make the point that facts/schmacts. Rather the argument here is that we should not teach that evolution is true because it would be bad if it was true.

I don't want to pretend that that argument is a good one. In general our ethical principles will be best if they fit with reality. But I do admire the honesty of Grabar acknoledging that the problem with evolution is not that the evidence does not support it, but rather that she does not want it to be true.

Let's just leave religion out of it
I am tired of the so-called Christians injecting God and religion into everything.

And before all you Bible thumpers scream, "Heathen Satanist!" let me assure you that I am 100% Christian born and raised.

My point is that our acceptance and practice of religion is a personal and sometimes (but not always) private matter that is best left up to individuals and NOT government. THAT is what the Founding Fathers intended because they had seen many places where the individual had no choice in religious matters.

In my opinion, the religious right's agenda is to create an America that would be at odds with what was originally intended for our country. We would be more divided than ever.

Prayer in schools and ID are two such examples of people putting their holier-than-thou noses where they do not belong.

If your kid wants to pray in school, there is NOTHING that prevents it. He has the right to do so and needs no "moment of silence" to speak to God. If your kid wants to learn about ID, then let him read about it and discuss it with appropriate adults. But don't tell me you will have a teacher talking about ID in the classroom. That is just silly. It's like asking a minister to talk about… well, evolution.

The religious right is the bane of religion – not the boon. They have done more to harm Christians and how we are perceived than any atheist has. Bible thumpers, stop turning people against us! You do NOT speak for Christ or Christians!

This is really pretty easy to grasp
I'm amazed at people who can't seem to grasp a fairly simple point about school curricula. In the course on the history of religions of the world, students would learn the creation stories of each religion. In the science courses, they would not.

It's clear that religious conservatives generally want much more than that; they either want (a) the Genesis story presented as a scientific theory and rival to evolution; or (b) ID, which is creationism lite, playing the same role.

These folks also probably object to including the Genesis story in a history of the religions of the world course because, by golly, they just know it's true, and why should it have to appear in a course where students would learn about obviously false religions like Hinduism and Islam?

vanagon
"Anyone who believes that - the theory of evolution is applicable to a leaping from existing specie to bringing into reality a new specie - is himself practicing a religion of faith."

You're absolutely right, it would be a religion of faith. Thing is, evolutionary theory claims no such thing. So where the myth come from, creationists?

Try Reading Darwin, Ms. Grabar
"For in the Darwinian scheme, man, as nothing more than an animal with more sophisticated cognitive skills, loses moral imperative and free will. "

Only if you accept the plays and other essays you have bothered to read as accurate descriptions of Darwin's work.

Had you bothered to read the author whose work you obviously have a deeply emotional response toward, you would know that no where in "The Origin of Species" does Darwin ever posit that man descended from apes. You would also know that Darwin himself quite clearly states that he does not seek to answer the question regarding creation itself, and that he as clearly states his belief in a Divine Creator.

But why bother wasting your time reading the author at the center of this, when instead you can read other people's claims about his work and essays on the rhetorical uses of it.

You, Ms. Grabar, are an idiot.

Science:What If Your Life Depended onIt?
I prefer to think of this conflict between Evolutionary Theorists and Creationists as a conflict between Uniformists and Catastrophists.

The fact is that the history of life on earth is punctuated by mass extinctions, in which more than 90% of life perished, and scientists do not agree on the causes. The dinosaurs first died out abruptly, then the megafauna disappeared. Floods, Ice Ages, asteroids, and hunting by early man have all been suggested. Some try to deal with the mass extinctions on a region by region basis. But either way, life on earth has been nearly completely wiped out in the past, several times.

This might concern us as more than English and Philosophy questions, or CNN questions for the Baptist running for office.

It is very important that we have as accurate a dating system as possible. Uniformists require millions and millions of years for their little pet theories (Big Bang/Evolution) to work. Catastophists recognize that extreme changes on this planet can happen very quickly, and give alternate explanations to the paleontologica