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Wednesday, December 19, 2007
Mary Grabar :: Townhall.com Columnist
Sex Education Lesson: Beat Up the Virgins
by Mary Grabar
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            Today’s sex education and teen pregnancy prevention advocates claim that they stand ready with contraceptives and factual information to assist teens and preteens presumably possessed by the raging hormone monster.  The notion that their programs would somehow encourage sexual activity is laughable, they charge. 

But a series of videos for teens promoted through a teen pregnancy prevention program, G-CAPP (Georgia Campaign for Adolescent Pregnancy Prevention), mocks the idea of abstinence.  The web page’s resources link [http://www.gcapp.org/resources/justForYouth.htm] encourages “youth” to “check out the Midwest Teen Sex Show—video podcasts about teen sexuality” that are intended to “provide sex information in a clear and entertaining way.”  The segment on “Abstinence” shows an actress playing the part of a girl beaten to the point of brain damage and slurring, “But I respect my body.” 

            These podcasts are introduced with a sign held by a gyrating, scantily clad nubile teenager in a farm field.  The porno-inspired intro ends with her on all fours with the sign in her mouth.           

            Such an intro gives a pretty good idea of the producers’ attitudes on “Abstinence.”  The reasons given for abstinence are: no sexually transmitted diseases, being more sexually desirable (which is presumed to be the sine qua non of teens’ existence), and no children.   “You don’t have to sit through boring Cub Scout meetings,” says the cool young female host before the very un-cool Cub Scout comes on.  

            The “cons,” however, far outweigh the “pros.” 

            First “con” is that abstinence is “really bo-ring!”  “Like all the cool kids are having sex and they’re gonna’ laugh at you if you’re not.”  This is when the beat-up brain-damaged girl comes on to illustrate the point.            

To the reason, “I’m saving myself for marriage,” the host comes back with, “It’s highly unrealistic you’ll be able to save yourself for marriage. . . . If you succeed, I feel bad for your spouse.  Sex takes practice.  You can’t just read a book to learn how to do it.”  

The two reasons given for not having sex are that you may not “be ready,” i.e., you may have “fears and questions” and that someone is “pressuring you into it.”  The green light is given to those whose “fears and questions” have been addressed (by these podcasts) and who have chosen partners, time, and place on their own.

              One of the sponsors of the series is a brand of condoms called “Abstinence.”  A commercial features a father coming into a teen daughter’s bedroom, seeming to be preparing to lecture her on abstaining from sex with her boyfriend.  She brushes him off.  He then hands her a pack of “Abstinence” condoms.  In what is the producers’ idea of father-daughter bonding, the girl smiles gratefully at him.

One segment claims to be educational, but “not like the porn your parents showed you.”  Really?  Parents show their children pornography?  (Well, if yours don’t, the message seems to be, most parents do.)

            The segment on masturbation promotes masturbation as a stress reliever: “Masturbation is the anti-drug,” says the host.

            To underscore the anti-family, anti-love, anti-parent message, a link is provided to a worksheet.  A column is provided where each participant, “Preteen/Teen” and “Parent,” can put in the age he or she thinks appropriate for such things as “Date,” “Undress in front of a boyfriend/girlfriend,” or “Have sexual intercourse.” 

            The “Notes to Teens and Parents” at the bottom says, “As you do this exercise and discuss your responses, please listen to each other.  Ask the other person to talk about why he/she feels that an age is appropriate or acceptable for the particular behavior.  Remember that these are individual values, not eternal truths. . . .”

            Parents are then cautioned that their teens will make private decisions as they move into young adulthood.  Although nothing is mentioned about the “young adults” supporting themselves, parents are told that they will have “no control over [their sexual] decisions.”

            Likewise, teens are asked to listen to parents for their experience and wisdom that might help them make “difficult decisions; but in the end, the decisions are yours to make.”

            This teen pregnancy prevention program has gotten government funding and has the stamp of approval from Atlanta mayor Shirley Franklin who attended the gala fundraiser for it, which also doubled as founder Jane Fonda’s birthday party.  Among the guests at the caviar event were Sally let-women-rule-the-world Fields and humanitarian (womanitarian?) vagina worshipper Eve Ensler, who also could somehow afford the $49,000 donation commitment. 

Jane Fonda’s glitzy shindig and the fact that at age 70 she’s “having sex” made it to the front page of the Atlanta newspaper.  During her 17-year stay in Atlanta, Fonda has been on a public relations campaign to shed her image as Hanoi Jane, reviled by veterans who suffered at the hands of the enemy due to her traitorous acts.  But today a major publisher believes that Jane Fonda has the authority to write a series of books on parenting and a memoir about the final third of her life.  And she is hailed for her “charity” work involving teens.

            Sally Fields reportedly tearfully gushed on about how much Fonda has meant to her as a role model.  Indeed, since her leggings-clad, big hair days, Fonda has been iconic to baby boomer women, who subscribed to her idea that sexual freedom meant empowerment.  But as I look around, I see that such a sexual revolution message has brought boomer women to their own lonely third phase, with children aborted due to the pressure of the live-in boyfriend, who decided after years of the benefits of cohabitation not to commit to marriage.  Not many of these lonely, single boomer women can afford the celebrity’s pretense of youth and freedom gained by plastic surgery and personal trainers. 

Now the harm of the sexual revolution is now being spread to children, particularly teen and preteen girls.  In language and imagery that alternates between baby talk and pornography, girls are told that being beat up for being a virgin is something to be laughed at, that motherhood is filled with horrible Cub Scout meetings, and that parents are useless idiots (unless they hand out condoms).  Hustler publisher Larry Flynt couldn’t have come up with a better series of videos preparing young girls to be ready partners for any male who wants to exploit them.

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About The Author
Mary Grabar earned her Ph.D. in English from the University of Georgia and teaches in the Atlanta area. She is a Pushcart Prize-nominated poet and published fiction writer. Visit her website and get on her mailing list at marygrabar.com
 
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Sexual harrassment
Why is the so-called "sex education" offered by the extreme activist Left not considered sexual harrassment? Why is it not called "contributing to the delinquincy of a minor?"

Why is it that the lunatic Lefties who have taken over the schools become unglued when a little pre-school boy kisses a little girl, yet they want to teach these very same children how to use a condom.

How crazy-making is that?

The Left is filled with nuts who have a pathological relation to sexuality in their own lives, and in a desperate attempt to "therapize" themselves, inflict their emotional problems on the nation's children and youth.

Abstinence Advocates
Have you ever wondered why abstinence advocates never talk about their OWN history of abstinence?

Could it be that they would have to admit that they were to pathetic to get any?

dbz77 - good point
the solution is to turn all of the young girls into streetwalkers at an early age.

i am sure all of the guys are salivating at this.
usually they have to cajole and prod girls. no longer. they have the schools doing it for them.

it is sad where the left is pushing our youth.

dbz77
This forum is for adults, not for wannabe internet studs like you..

Mutty the Tanker
Adults who believe in abstinence are like adults who believe in Santy Claus.

Abstinence, like Santy Claus, is for little kids.

This liberal is disgusted
The approach to sex education summarized here is disgusting. Nothing like it was used in the public schools my daughters attended, and the parental advice my wife and I gave them was nothing like this either.

It's a mistake for conservatives to assume that all, or even most, liberals would approach sex education in this way.The creators of the materials discussed seem to have gone far out of their way to be offensive and insulting to parents. This is totally unnecessary.

Of course, conservatives love to think that such an extremist curriculuum is representative of how liberals approach sex education. Ms.
Grabar picked the most offensive approach she could find because she wants to show TH readers the evils of sex education.

nothing's for free
Free sex? No responsibility, no emotional consequences, etc. What a load. You don't get something for nothing.

DBZ-77, did you ever consider that many of us who would promote abstinence would like to teach our children to avoid our own mistakes? I had numerous partners when I was young and I regret it. I'd much prefer it if I had had sex with only my wife.

And anti-parent? These people must not have had children. Now that I have a kid I couldn't imagine going through life without one.

To dbz: Three Stages.
There are three stages in a man's life dbz.

1: He believes in Santa Claus

2: He doesn't believe in Santa Claus

3: He is Santa Claus.

You appear to be perpetually stuck at stage two, also known as "adolescense."

Only adolescents care about who is "getting any" and ascribe such value to throwing themselves at others that it would frighten them if they didn't.

Big Surprise
And nowhere in this do they apparently point out that sex is like any other drug addiction.

For a long time I have asserted that the left in this country are a pack of perverts. No, I don't mean sexual deviants, I mean perverts; they are compelled to pervert everything just for the sake of changing it.

Anybody noticed the plethora of Christmas fare this year where Santa's either evil, foolish, or both? Perversion for its own sake.

That Dad is only good for handing out rubbers to his daughter is only furthering the image of paternal figures that is promoted on every commercial, cartoon and tv show.
(Compare Ward Cleaver with any modern tv dad.)
Remember, so long as the proles have their drugs and their movies, they'll never rebel. At least 2 generations now have been turned into hedonistic drones. And we on the right are complicit, because we want to be liked, we want to be thought of as tolerant and understanding and "hip" (kind of like America wanting to be popular with our "allies",) so we swallow whatever nonsense the left tries to shove down our throat, from sufferage to "civil rights" to condoms in highschool.

re: dbz77
My nephew had essentially the same question for me a couple of years ago, ie, how can I advocate behavior that I personally didn't follow. My answer was that we all have faults but that shouldn't stop us from encouraging each other to do better, not "because I'm not as pathetic as you." Sheesh! Is a criminal in prison a hypocrite for telling someone else that being a criminal wasn't the best idea he ever had? Or a parent who burns herself on a stove telling her children to abstain from touching the stove? We should be learning as we go through life and try to pass information on so generations don't keep making the same mistakes over and over.

Ummm ... count me as having waited
Abstinence does work. I know tons of people (under age 30) who waited until marriage to engage in intercourse. Funny, they are all still married, have great jobs, and are raising respectable families.

Of course, that is nowhere nearly as cool as being a teenage mom or having 4 abortions by age 25. But whatever floats your boat.

dbz77, you can't handle the truth...
I'm in the trenches as an abstinence advocate (I have a son who is a bona fide heart-throb), and I practiced what I preach to my son. And his mother also practiced abstinence before we married.

I have never lacked for attention from the fairer gender, but I always maintained my commitment because I WANTED a quality lady who would be exclusively "mine". And I found a gorgeous lady with the same kind of standards. Now we are passing those standards to our handsome son.

I tell my boy, "If you want a beautiful lady with the qualities your mother possesses, you'd better maintain a high standard of personal behavior, or you won't qualify." We're passing our values to our son.

It's clear that sex is not something you can learn by just reading a book. Since our wedding night my wife and I have spent YEARS trying to "perfect the art". We're not there yet, but we've got a lifetime to keep working at it!

As a bonus, we've never been tested for an STD and we've never had to deal with an unwanted pregnancy.

"Abstinence works every time it's tried." - Bill Bennett

Home Schooling Sounds Better
No wonder parents want choice in education. It's crap like this that pushes parents toward home schooling or private religious schools.

virginity
I am a male in his 70's. No girl was pregnant in my high school class. My wife was a virgin. We were and are perfectly sane and raised two beautiful children who both have beautiful children. May I suggest that if you repeat a lie often enough the vast amount of idiots will believe it. There still are only two types of women, the marrying kind and the party kind and if you are an unmarried woman reading this, the above will tell you why.
Have lived this truth.
John

Sir Aaron
Okay, so sex has its price. I accept that.

Have you ever considered what the price of adult virginity is?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.social-phobia/br owse_thread/thread/f64b5d385a5ca3dd/575a3a0a02c8a931?hl=en& lnk=st&q=insubject%3Aadult+insubject%3Amale+insubject%3Avir ginity#575a3a0a02c8a931

I can tell you what the price is. Feelings of shame, rage, resentment, inadequacy, isolation, alienation, despair, depression, and suicide. Having an image of a failure, a loser, of less than a man than other men. THAT price is too high to pay.

The kids we're trying to reach
I haven't seen the videos in question.

But I do know this: The kids they're trying to reach with these messages can't be reached any other way.

In any population of teenagers, some are going to be rebellious, some are going to reject the religious and political values of their parents. I did that when I turned 14 years old--I told my mom that to her face.

Now what are we going to do about that?

At the very least, we don't want such kids to be at risk for unwanted pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, etc., if at all possible.

They may not become Christians like their parents. They may not be conservatives or Republicans like their parents. They might not believe in any virtues of remaining abstinent. They may find they are homosexual. But they still don't deserve to die of AIDS because they have made different moral choices than their parents.


Schools
This is another example of what passes for education in government schools now. Young people are taught that morals are irrelevant and that ideas which have sustained civilization for centuries are obsolete.

Honor-how boring.
Duty- I`m busy.
Country- America sucks.
God-A fairy tale.

People with such an education are incapable of critical thinking and are sheep for any fad from drugs to global warming.

If this course doesn`t change, we will see the very severe consequences in short order.

while not interested in flame war
dbz77 writes: Wednesday, December, 19, 2007 11:48 AM
Mutty the Tanker
Adults who believe in abstinence are like adults who believe in Santy Claus.

Abstinence, like Santy Claus, is for little kids.

I have to respond, I feel sorry for you, and your pathetic attempts at sounding all grown up.. now shouldnt you log off and let your mommy do your laundry now? go on now and take a nap, you are getting cranky. I would guess by your handle you are about 30 years old. sorry but internet porn and self abuse in mommies basement isn't getting any...

dbz77 what about acceptance?
"Feelings of shame, rage, resentment, inadequacy, isolation, alienation, despair, depression, and suicide. Having an image of a failure, a loser, of less than a man than other men. THAT price is too high to pay."

And this is a false image created by an artificial culture. When homosexuals feel this way, liberals fall all over themselves to pervert everything wholesome in this country so homosexuals won't feel bad about themselves and can continue to indulge in their perversion.

It's a sick nation where people are coerced to change their values so sexual perverts can feel good about themselves, and where people are coerced to change their values so that celibates will feel bad about themselves.

The value of masturbation
At least one study has shown that men who ejaculate frequently (several times a week at least, every week) have a 30% lower risk of prostate cancer. Perhaps because those ejaculations help flush potential carcinogens out of the prostate gland before they can cause trouble.


Groan!
I first was told about sex at the dawn of the 1960's by my friend Howard, who got the low-down from his 14 year old big brother. It turned out that Howard's big brother was filling in the blanks of his own second-hand knowledge and got a bunch of stuff wrong but after reading this column I think we ought to locate him and put him in charge of our Federal School System's Sex Education curricula. The cause of this idiocy is simple, people who graduate universities with psychology and sociology degrees have had their brains so permanently scarred by leftist misinformation that they have been rendered useless as far as any actual work goes. How to deal with this potentially violent mob of young geniuses? Start a sex-ed program and put 'em to work! Now those of us who work at actual jobs know where the goofy and useless new hires will be found...at their computers downloading porn. Now, as employees of the Sex-ed combine they can burn their day's work onto a DVD and send it the the Federal School System labeled as education. The apathetic vegetables in the classrooms (probably engaged in downloading porn on their laptops during sex-ed anyway) will be unaffected by this latest government nonsense.

for Nobody: Male responsibility
Nobody writes: "I am a male in his 70's. No girl was pregnant in my high school class. My wife was a virgin."

Well, here's a historical fact for you:

In Colonial Puritan New England, way back circa 1800, over one-third of the women were already pregnant before they got married. That can easily be determined by checking the marriage records and birth certificates.

The difference between then and today was NOT that they were abstinent. It was that when the man found out that he had gotten a woman pregnant, it was his DUTY to "do the right thing by her" and marry her. In fact, in many of those cases, the young man was simply having sex with his fiance and couldn't wait till the actual marriage and honeymoon to get it on.

What you didn't see back then, and you see all too often today, is young men having sex with girls, getting them pregnant, and then fleeing to leave the girls stuck with the pregnancy and the baby.

In other words, what we have today is a total breakdown of MALE responsibility.

My sexuality education message to teenage boys:

[Display photo of female hymen on screen]
"Guys, this is a hymen.
If you break it, you own it--and you own the woman who is attached to it"


Adult Virgins Are Sexual Perverts
Adult virgins are sexual perverts just as homosexuals are.

Of course, one of the reasons that homosexual fundamentalists are more successful in getting society to tolerate their perversion than abstinence advocates are in getting society to tolerate their perversion, is that abstinence advocates do not portray themselves as a persecuted minority, in need of protection and tolerance.

They portray themselves as people that EVERYONE should emulate their lifestyle, that their flavor of perversion is a moral duty. Remember that the homosexual fundamentalists were gaining ground in public acceptance of gay rights and won every argument until they tried to sue same-sex marriage into law. (That crossed the line, as that called for people to equate homosexual relationships with normal relationships, instead of tolerating homosexual relationships.)

But one must wonder why abstinence advocates do not try to portray themselves and adult virgins as a persecuted minority in need of protection. And the answer, of course, is that abstinence advocates want to compensate for their inadequacy in failing to get laid like everyone around them. If they presented themselves as a persecuted minority, they would have to admit their own inadequacies and shortcomings.

Why in School?
As a mother of four, I have no problem with these web-sites existing, I monitor what my children do on the internet. I have a huge problem with this being taught in public school. I have talked with my kids about what they are "allowed" to learn in school, and on several occasions I have been called to come pick up my "sick" child. They know that we do not learn about sexuality of any kind, we do not learn about global warming or evolution. The most recent call I received was because the teacher started talking about Kwanza and my kids know the truth about Kwanza. Educate your kids and teach them to be proactive, it is our only hope.

dbz...
I get the feeling you have some issues dbz77. Every time I've seen your posts in a discussion, you eventually bought up adult male virginity. These issues should be worked out with a psychiatrist or a psychologist or both. I'd bet many more non-virgins have "Feelings of shame, rage, resentment, inadequacy, isolation, alienation, despair, depression, and suicide." That fact that anyone would have those feelings for being a virgin just goes to show how horrible society has become, honoring evil and shunning good. It's backwards.

What
Putting Condoms on CUCUMBERS DIDNT WORK. Well Ill be DAMNED. The LIBS sure had me convinced.

Like my Garandpa used to say , Its how you raise your kids not how others try to raise your KIDS


Cucumbers and Other Things
Condoms were designed to go on something else other than a cucumber.

And landofconfusion, the one thing that I absolutely SHOULD not do is to pretend that it is okay to be an adult virgin here. One can not solve problems by pretending that they are not problems. That is the trap the Japanese Army fell into when they pretended that there were no problems in crossing the Owen Stanley Mountains, and that is the trap that abstinence advocates fell into when they pretended that their lack of a sex life is not a problem, and calling what is normal "evil".

Bush is a porn pusher
So your upset cause George Bush is a porn pusher.

dbz77 - nice try, but WRONG
"Adult virgins are sexual perverts just as homosexuals are. "

WRONG. Adult virgins have normal, healthy sexual appetites (unlike homosexuals, virgin or otherwise). They desire members of the opposite sex, the prerequisite to procreation. What they have that everybody seems to resent today is SELF CONTROL.

There's a story I was rereading yesterday that I really like called "Second Contact".
It's about a future where the space-alien equivalent of a tramp-freighter visits Earth, and their treatment of us is so humiliating that human society everywhere collapses.
They have a weapon called a "Zapper". It gives you the ultimate orgasm. Thousands of people were turned into "chasers", trying to get the aliens to zap them.
25 years later, as civilization is being rebuilt, alien academics visit to analyze what happened. The main character gets zapped... but he doesn't become a chaser:
"Such people (members of a healthy society) don't really enjoy getting zapped - right? It feels nice, but it's degrading, and you have better pleasures. Family. Work that means something. Accomplishment, hope, a future. When you have that, you don't slip off into pipe dreams".

THAT is why the drug known as sex is becoming so dominant in our society. This whole culture is becoming all about hedonism. If you have the character to withstand that, why, you must be a pervert, a sicko. An evil person who makes us feel bad by demonstrating that we're nothing but a bunch of pathetic pleasure-addicts.

A lack of a "sex life"
is known as "having a life."


The guy on the latest Survivor
show claimed on the live tv finale that he was indeed still a virgin even though he was dating one of the other contestants. Jeff Probst brings it up on national live tv.

Talk about peer pressure.


Oh Please, Jdw
One has to be absolutely pathetic, less of a man than other men, to be unable to get a girlfriend for the night, let alone a wife for life.

Abstinence is Based on Fantasy
So now jdw relies on fantasy to make a point.

This definitely shows what the whole abstinence movement is based on.

While every woman I know who is past their teens has had sex, their sex life does not interfere with other parts of their lives. They have careers and friends, and some of them are even married.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.social-phobia/br owse_thread/thread/f64b5d385a5ca3dd/575a3a0a02c8a931?hl=en& lnk=st&q=insubject%3Aadult+insubject%3Amale+insubject%3Avir ginity#575a3a0a02c8a931

Contrast that with the statements of adult male virgins who posted on that Usenet thread. Those virgins are anything except happy.

And The Winner Is...
For Whackiest Metaphor Ever On Townhall:

dbz77 for--

"That is the trap the Japanese Army fell into when they pretended that there were no problems in crossing the Owen Stanley Mountains,"

A lesson for us all to ponder.

Skep41
Have you ever read about the Japanese Army's campaign in New Guinea?

dbz77
Yes, but what does that have to do with what is being talked about. I've also read about the conflict between the Papacy and the Holy Roman Empire but I wouldnt use it as a metaphor in a discussion about Sex Education and whether its all right to be a virgin or not.

dbz77
You do not seem to understand the value of waiting for something. You appear to be obsessed with instant self-gratification. I waited until I was of legal age to drink and waited until I was married to engage in sexual intercourse. I wanted to enjoy it to the fullest. I am happily married and have been for many years.

I have some friends who did not wait. They are unmarried and unhappy. They have gone from partner to partner looking for the ultimate sexual gratification. One will most likely die within the next year from AIDS complications.

I like my choice better. Abstinance is a hard choice but has the best results.

School in PA shows rated R
movie to 15 and 16 year olds. The movie contained female topless nudity and situations of prostitution. When a parent complained, the school responded that they reserved the right to show "edited" versions of R rated movies to students without getting consent and that this was simply a "mistake" because they accidently showed the full version without editing...TWICE.

I am sure it won't happen again.

dbz77
With that said let me take your side against the Virginity Worshipers. You guys sound like Islamic Militants with your maniacal obsession with virginity. In an age of birth control and declining religious belief there are people who live perfectly happy lives in a non-traditional way. They are not obsessed with self-gratification they are just people having relationships. Everybody has to decide who they are and what they want for themselves.

Adult Virgins
DBZ77, I find it humorous that you use a usenet forum as proof that being a virgin is a horrible thing. I know lots of people who saved themselves for marriage and non of them waited until 40 to find a mate. In fact, if anything, it caused them to become responsible adults at an earlier age. They also tended to have children earlier. This results in them not having to care for young children during their 50s and 60s and instead being able to enjoy the presence of grandchildren and great grandchildren. And BTW, the people who I know waited...their divorce rate is zero.

Amen
"Hustler publisher Larry Flynt couldn’t have come up with a better series of videos preparing young girls to be ready partners for any male who wants to exploit them."

Amen.

Men who use girls/women as if there were nothing but blow-up dolls with a heartbeat are trash.

Women and girls who degrade themselves by being used are trash.

Those who teach our children to be trash rather than to aspire to the highest and best things in life aren't even worth the name trash. They are lower than maggots, bacteria, or mold. And they WILL pay the price for the corruption they spread.

Again and again I've asked, who has the best interests of our youth in mind?

Those who would put them on the path of death, destruction, and despair?

Or those who would teach them to set their value high, to master their urges, and to pursue that which is best rather than that which might provide a moment's pleasure at the price of a lifetime of regret?

Teen brains
Let's see, the left wants us to believe that we can't hold teens and young adults responsable for their criminal actions, because STUDIES have shown that their brains aren't mature enough to make the "proper" decisions. However, their little skulls of mush are some how able to comprehend the consquences of sex??

dbz77
Abstinance works 100% of the time it is tried, how is the record of "if it feels good do it, just strap this on"? If you have a working brain cell, you know give hormonally charged adolescents some form of protection that may or may not work and then give them the "I hope you don't, but if you just have to then use the condom" line. If you have a little fire in that cell, just which one do you think they would most likely choose.
There was nothing that came out of your sewer about disciple, self-control, just jabs at those that believe abstinance should be the goal, and what works best.

Bottom line is for people like you, for those kids that take your brand of advice is, if they catch some disease, or get pregnant, you certainly won't be there for them and neither will none of these others , except Planned Parenthood (fetal murders are us). We'll do a drive by on it and it will be all better, you trust us.

Yeah, right.
DBZ77: A usenet forum is not exactly what I'd call a credible source to prove that virginity is a bad thing. Besides, the forum people don't even state whether they intentionally set themselves apart for marriage or abstained because they couldn't relate to the opposite sex. There's a difference between can't and wont.

I have plenty of friends that purposefully abstained until marriage. In most cases it caused them to become responsible,contributing members of society at an earlier age. They tended to have children earlier and as a result will be able to live long enough to see grandchildren and great grandchildren. My other friends who did not wait, tended to have kids later in life, had more difficulty in finding a lasting mate, and have a higher divorce rate (well, to be honest the people I know who waited have a zero divorce rate).

Skep41: I don't think anybody is stating that abstinence only is the only education a child should get. But we certainly don't want our kids hearing that they should experiment with sex the moment they hit puberty with any person they feel like. Abstinence, in its various forms, should be encouraged and taught in conjunction with any sex ed course.

dbz77- is confused
The trouble with communicating with Lefties is that they are either deliberately obtuse, or so brainwashed that they can't understand the arguments of their oponents.

'Course there is the possibility that they are just plain dumb, but I think they are dumb as foxes. They know that if they misstate their opponent's positions, it is easier to tear them down.

No one in the "abstinence only" movement advocates that people NEVER have sex, yet this is what BuzzKill77 implies.

We advocate that CHILDREN practice abstinence, and that when they are mature enough to choose a good sexual partner and to bond with that person for life, that they get married.

Before the advent of the Feminazis, people got married when they were young, when they were at the height of their attractiveness, when the women were healthy enough to give birth easily, and were energetic enough to chase after toddlers, and when they still remembered what it was like to be a child.

So you see, in the old days, abstinence was not a life sentence, as it would be under the feminazi's declaration that women not marry until they are older.

Once again,
Once again dbz77 babbles hysterical justification of his desire to lead a life style of hedonism and irresponsibility.

Once again he refuses to acknowledge that a man's character is more important than a mere 6 inches of his flesh or that true manhood is to be found in his ability to support and care for a wife and children rather than his willingness to use any woman who passes by as a toy for his desires.

With every article posted he becomes more and more hysterical in his denial of any suggestion that a different path would lead to a better and more fulfilling life.

dbz77, you CAN change the course of your life. God allows U-turns, its possible to adopt the practice of chastity at any time, and the admission that one has been wrong and now wishes to correct past errors in thought and practice is a sign of developing maturity and character.

skep41
"Everybody has to decide who they are and what they want for themselves."

This is true however it sure looks like kids aren't allowed that freedom to decide. They get ridiculed for deciding to remain a virgin.

Have we gone off the deep end so far that now being a virgin is somehow wrong in our culture? How much lower can we set the standard for ourselves?

dbz77 pathetic indeed
"One has to be absolutely pathetic, less of a man than other men, to be unable to get a girlfriend for the night, let alone a wife for life."

One has to be absolutely pathetic, an incomplete man entirely, to require bedding a female to feel like a whole man.

"So now jdw relies on fantasy to make a point."

Actually it was science fiction, and that quote succinctly explains what I spent years discovering; sex is the first addiction; it is not rewarding beyond the few seconds of extacy. As with alcohol, grownups know how to partake in moderation when appropriate. Pleasure obsessed adolescents do not.

If given a choice between being celibate for life but having a female soul-mate with you for its length, and living a solitary life filled with sexual encounters, which would you choose? Wait, you've already answered that. Sex, in your view, is obviously more important.

Mountain Rose
"We advocate that CHILDREN practice abstinence, and that when they are mature enough to choose a good sexual partner and to bond with that person for life, that they get married.

Before the advent of the Feminazis, people got married when they were young, when they were at the height of their attractiveness, when the women were healthy enough to give birth easily, and were energetic enough to chase after toddlers, and when they still remembered what it was like to be a child.

So you see, in the old days, abstinence was not a life sentence, as it would be under the feminazi's declaration that women not marry until they are older."

Beautifully put.

God and nature designed humans to form male-female, pair-bonds as soon as they matured. Every successful culture/society and every major religion has advocated these same things.

Chastity -- abstinence before marriage, faithfulness in marriage -- is a key value for any society that would grow and thrive rather than collapse and wither.

Mother of 4
-"a mere 6 inches of his flesh"

...only in dbz77land.

Mountain Rose, another thought
Additionally, when those of us who followed the intended plan continue to have children in our later years we have our older children to help with the younger ones. And this is good for their development because they both learn responsibility and are given a grounding in reality.

My DD had one of her first forays away from home this summer in a situation where she could, potentially, be unsupervised with boys who might pressure her for sex. I reminded her that she was physically old enough to bear children but that, since her body was not fully developed, she would have some of the same discomforts and issues that I had in my pregnancy at 41 AND that she would be then be responsible for the care and well-being of the baby until it was 18.

Since she knows what its like to be responsible for her little brother for a few hours this reminder serves her far better than just handing her a box of condoms. Especially since I explained that the imperfections of condoms are demonstrated by the fact that her youngest brother wasn't 100% planned. ;)

Being Experienced Helps Little...
It is a false pressure to put on a young man that he should be experienced before marrying so that he will be able to please his wife. I can assure you from my own moral failings that women are very different from each other in this respect, and what pleases one might not please another. So, all of that "practice" with other women turns out to be a hindrance to pleasing the wife.

Marriage is not a contest pitting two people against each other. It is a partnership where you focus on the needs of the other person. If you choose wisely, you can help each other learn. Only a horrible. self-defeating wife would deride her new husband for his "inexperience". Instead, they grow in their experience together, enjoying any silliness with playful, lighthearted laughs along the way.

As far as men ditching their responsibilities to pregnant girlfriends... modern feminists have made this possible. Remember - women don't need men, they say. It is HER body, HER choice. It is HER choice to carry the child to term and give birth to it. Men (fathers) are worthless. So these men erroneously, but understandably, feel justified in taking off. Yes, modern feminism has been good for lazy, hedonistic men.

So...
According to DBZ77's theory a paraplegic or quadraplegic may as well go die as he or she cannot experience sexual gratification and thus must lead a life of misery?

And apparently, unless you are "lucky" enough to be molested, I suppose childhood is a waste as well, with all of that non-sexual play and such?

What as sad, sad view of life.

The Devils Helpers
I am aghast to read about what these people are trying to do to our youth! Since I am a believer I think they are doing the Devil's work and will have to suffer the consequences some day unless they cease and desist at once. Repent you foolish people! Convert before it is too late! I can only pray that young people will see the folly of this movement and protect themselves from a life of misery. The Devil is a liar and a deceiver. Don't fall for his tricks! God loves you!
Nancy J.

Ken
"Instead, they grow in their experience together, enjoying any silliness with playful, lighthearted laughs along the way."

Brought back very pleasant thoughts of my honeymoon and the many, wonderful discoveries 2 virgins got to make.

18+ years later we're still making discoveries too. ;)

Ken
Just wait... with marriage in it's current state of ambiguity, soon we will be chastised a freak for getting married.

A friend of my wife's called the other day and said she wanted to get a divorce after 11 years of marriage and two boys. My wife asked me what to tell her. My sarcastic response was "Well divorce is 50%....better her than us right." While my wife appreciated my sense of humor in a dire circumstance it doesn't resolve their issues.

Ultimately it boils down to self satisfaction instead of self sacrifice. Our society has become one giant pot of "meisim."
If we fail to melt into that pot, we get the ususal labels that I will not dignify by repeating here.

By the way
I spent my youth in a rather dissipated, debauched state. And I have regretted for years the way I wasted so much time chasing after pointless sex, drink, drugs, etc.

To spend your time lionizing the pursuit of casual meaningless sex as the height of human experience just seems pathetic to me now. From first hand experience I can say that hedonism is hollow and unsatisfying in a truly profound way. And I feel in no way hypocritical telling my son that. As someone else said, it isn't hypocritical to tell my child not to touch a flame after I have burned my own hand.

About two years ago, thanks to an incorrect diagnosis, I was worried that I was suffering from ALS and was near death. (Turned out it was my peculiar reaction to some medication, thought it took another year to get an accurate diagnosis for my original problem.) Trust me, my thoughts were not "I wish I had chased after more women."


"Why They Fight"
I'm cursed with a good memory. DBZ and I have exchanged posts about this subject for a while now. The backstory behind DBZ is that he posted a while back that he was an adult virgin and that he was deeply ashamed of it. I told him that his insecurity was what allowed people to bully him (and what makes him bully himself). Ever since then, something's snapped and he's been acting like you've read.

What you're reading from him is self-loathing. Hope that solves the riddle.

Me, I'm 25. I don't value my virginity as much as my chastity, but, nevertheless, I'm happy that I did get out of the stupid years with my virginity intact. I'm not weak enough to be prey, so I personally don't get much trouble about my "alternative lifestyle", but DBZ and the article and some of what I've seen personally does make a point:

Virginity and chastity does offend people, it makes them angry. Years ago, in the stupid years, when the morality of fornication was at all unclear to me, the anger was part of how I knew chastity was right. There's no logical reason to have anger about virginity and chastity. The anger is deep-seeded bitterness about how they've conducted their own lives.

Deep down, everybody knows that fornication is wrong - because it is. Conscience can be drugged and dulled for a time, especially with the ultimate excuse that "everybody does it", "everybody's doing it". Meeting a good person destroys the illusion and brings the pain of conscience to the forefront.

People smash ugly mirrors. That's what corruption is made of.

Geez...
About the article: Libs scream "AIDS is such a problem! We need to do more!", and then go out and blast the only 100% effective prevention(abstinence). Then they portray those who abstain as bigots, etc., and mount a concentrated campaign of pressure and bias against virginity in our schools, doing the same thing they accuse others of!

Now, this is what I think.

It all boils down to one word: SELF.

Outside influences like the sex-ed program in the article tear down the self esteem of girls to a point where they do not respect themselves and their body enough to say "I'll wait for someone who really loves me, not just someone looking to 'get laid.'"

Now, don't confuse self-esteem with selfishness.
These same influences are saying, "It's all about you! Who cares about anyone else! Have sex with anyone! Everybody's doing it! Don't abstain, because it doesn't matter if you get an STD (or give one to someone else)! If you get pregnant (or get someone pregnant), you can always abort!!

It's also about respecting others enough to say,
"It's not all about me, my pleasure."

Some statistics from the Movement for a Better America web site:
More than 48 and a half million babies have been legally killed since 1973. 48,500,000 potential Democrats, Republicans, taxpayers, blacks, whites, hispanics, liberals, conservatives, fathers, mothers, friends, neighbors, businesspeople, politicians, activists, etc were prevented from exercising their right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Had they lived, they would have made up almost 1/7 of the population of the United States. The babies aborted last year would have made up 1/5 of all births. (Thanks mostly to the liberal doctrine of SELF)



Andrews
Thank you for sharing. I made some mistakes too when younger and will when appropriate share with my daughter in the hopes that she can avoid the pain I lived with before understanding why I did what I did, and receiving forgiveness from God.

Just because a woman gives her consent to uncommitted sex doesn't mean she isn't being exploited. Real love looks out for the other guy.

Mother of 4- you are so wise!
And you are probably a great mom!

Unfortunately, we now live in a culture that does not support a moral lifestyle, and we must work harder to instill values in our children.

This is why it is so important to be close to our extended families, and our church communities.

And this is why the Lefties are so desireous of cutting us each from the "herd" and isolating us, so we have no support and fall prey to their devices.

The checkoff list is the key
I like the idea of the checkoff list that has ages where certain behaviors are tolerated or not. And the fact that this will lead to an open, honest discussion between parent and child. It is true that most parents will not have a say in whether their child has sex or not unless they can supervise the child 24 hours a day.

Feminism doesn't say that a woman has to marry late. It says that she may marry or not whenever she wants and until then or forever she's entitled to earn whatever an equivalently credentialed male working the same job would earn. Not very controversial.

I married at 30 and 10 years later we are going strong. We lived together for 5 years prior to marriage in order to save $$ for our home. I've never regretted these choices, but then my religion places no emphasis on virginity or chastity until marriage.

Wow, Ken! Great Post!
Your wisdom regarding marriage is so sage: you should write a book!

While working at home, I flipped through the channels to prove to my self that, once again, nothing is on.

One of those Jerry Springer style shows had on a woman who claimed to have had sex with 100 men, and didn't know who the father was.

I didn't wait to find out.

TV off, I pondered why these shows are so popular among the gals that sit on their duffs all day.

The truth is, there are so many trampy women out there who don't know which kid goes with which dad, and they are the poorer for it. They can think to themselves, "I have 3 kids, each with a different father, but at least I don't have a possible 100 sperm donors!"

Kids need their dad, and from what I have seen, it is the welfare moms that ditch the dads, so that they can get their welfare checks.

It is a horrible way to live, but they have never been taught that the moral way to live is the most prosperous way to live as well.

Mother of 4
"Once again he refuses to acknowledge that a man's character is more important than a mere 6 inches of his flesh or that true manhood is to be found in his ability to support and care for a wife and children rather than his willingness to use any woman who passes by as a toy for his desires."
A man's character is determined by how well he fits in with the people around him. It is the larger society that defines what character is.

Where I am, adult virgins definitely do not fit in.

Andrews
Did you have the opportunity to get married, and did not take it?

Deornwulf
"
You do not seem to understand the value of waiting for something. You appear to be obsessed with instant self-gratification. I waited until I was of legal age to drink and waited until I was married to engage in sexual intercourse. I wanted to enjoy it to the fullest. I am happily married and have been for many years."
MY priority is measuring up to those around me and fitting in with them.

Everyone I know who is my age has had sex, so I have to have sex too.

dbz77
"I can tell you what the price is. Feelings of shame, rage, resentment, inadequacy, isolation, alienation, despair, depression, and suicide. Having an image of a failure, a loser, of less than a man than other men. THAT price is too high to pay."

Just stay away from MY daughter!

dbz77 writes
"Where I am, adult virgins definitely do not fit in."
***********************************

No but adult adolescents do, apparently.

dbz77
So what if you don't fit in?

Dare to be a person of conviction person of jello.

Jello sags and flops and "fits in" to whatever mold it happens to be poured into.

A MAN knows what he believes. He discerns what is right then acts on his convictions regardless of what anyone else says.

A MAN holds firm in the face of opposition.

A MAN never fears ridicule because he knows that it stems from envy and the resentment that the weak feel for the strong.

Jello sags down and conforms to the lowest hollow available. A MAN seeks higher and better things.

A good woman, one worth committing your life to, will respect a MAN. She will despise and spurn human jello.

Gee, didn't Kevin McCullough
publish a column several months ago where he asserted "liberals WANT your children to have sex," only to be met with cries of "OUTRAGEOUS" and "LIAR" by several outspoken liberal posters on this site?

Why yes, yes he did. And yes, yes they did.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/KevinMcCullough/2007/07/ 15/why_liberals_lie_about_sex

Seems they owe Mr. McCullogh an apology. He was dead right.

Mother of 4- Customs and Traditions
And how would a man know what to believe, what customs and traditions to have, except by observing those around him?

Do you think everyone simply invents their own customs and traditions on their own, regardless of how other people around them act?

Could there be a reason why certain customs and traditions are followed more in Bhutan than in Switzerland?

History
First, the guy that posted that it's a proven fact 50 percent of the Puritan girls were pregnant when they married doesn't know much about human reproduction, apparently. I know about this because my mother was raised in the Depression and had a rickets as a child. Many women who don't receive adequate nutrition as children end up with skeletal abnormalities. My mother birthed three children and all of us were premature. All of us were also born with hair and fingernails. According to my cousin the research doctor, this was quite common in the old days and is still common in 3rd world countries today. My cousin's special area of interst is how the mind and body work together. Many women who couldn't deliver a child because of skeletal problems will have fully developed, but small babies at month or two earlier than they should. The reasons are not well-understood, but the scientists are aware of it.

My grandparents claimed to both have been virgins when they married at 26 in 1912. Grandma had a career -- she was the paymaster for the cattle outfit where Grandpa was a horse-wrangler. It was pretty common for people in financially tight time to hold off on marriage so as not to have so many kids. The Depression era was the smallest generation ever born in US census history. Many held off until after WW2 to have children, which was a contributing factor the Baby Boom when the average couple only had 3.1 children. It was partially because so many older couples were having 9th inning offspring. While some of them may have been having sex before marriage, the number of out-of-wedlock births was also down in an era where birth control was non-existent. Hmm, I wonder how they did that?


Why is it anyone's business
I'm sorry but the excuse that everyone around me is having sex so I have to have sex is absurd.

It takes courage and integrity to wait for marriage. Those used to be qualities that mattered. Now, they are scoffed.

It's so sad what this country has become.

And yet the silver lining - FINALLY - something Mormons and Evangelicals agree on. Fight for the right to promote abstinence as an alternative to progressive sex ed. Huckabee and Romney would be so proud.

"to get any"
Must be a lefty talking.

It's obviously not love-making--these people don't want to be in love, they just want to "get some."

The left is nuts about sex and has contributed to sexual advancement by helping create 56 venereal diseases out of the three that seemed to be conquered by penicillin after WW II.

Now three of them are incurable, one always fatal, and two connected with cancer: HIV/AIDS (the partly gay contribution to modern sex), HPV that closely correlates to cervical cancer, and genital herpes, which if love doesn't last forever, herpes does.

I followed the link
This stuff is jaw-droppingly shocking. I cannot believe this stuff is being presented to teen-aged girls with a strait face.

What's to gain?
That's what I always ask myself when I see activities like this. There are two things to gain:

1.) More prey

A lot of the people who advocate and fund efforts to sexualize young people simply want to prey upon them. This group has a distressingly large membership among other sexually active young people as well as creepy older dudes who want to "score hot young chicks / dudes." Yes, there is a lot of older homosexual men out there desperate to get a piece of teen-to-twenty-something boys and young men who feel confused and alienated. This message of "liberation" is little more than a Siren's Call to predators.

2.) Ego

There are a lot of hedonists out there that despise the idea that some people judge their way of living to be immoral and inferior. They will tear down anyone and anything they can to make themselves feel better. They degrade virtues like chastity and temperance. They assault institutions like churches and charities. All they care about is feeling good and having to live next to altruistic, principled people who "walk the walk" drives them absolutely nuts. No matter how many times they try to convince themselves the other side is naive and foolish they can't stand the idea that someone holds them in low regard.

As a the mother of a knock-out
My 14-year-old has boys gathered around her like flies to honey. They're just friends, she says, and I believe her (there's a new program that allows parents to spy on their kids MySpace, so that helps verify). I am pretty sure at least some of those boys want to have sex with her. She's decided to wait until she's married and she figures that will be some time in her mid-20s. She's not worried about being an "old-maid". She can get a date anytime she wants, clearly. She has a leisurely attitude toward the whole dating process. When she finds a boy she likes, she hangs in a group for a while and if he's still not become a goon, she invites him to church youth activities. If her parents don't absolutely hate him and her Christian friends like him and he doesn't think church youth activities are lame, she might date him. So far, none of them have made it that far, but there are several who are keeping it as casual as she is. One boy told her that he's got no desire to be a papa at 15 and he figures condoms fail sometimes.

My husband was not a Christian until after his teenage years, so he felt dbz77's need to prove his manhood. He now regrets that and plans to tell our 8-year-old son it was a bad idea. We have known several intentional adult virgins who married other intention adult virgins. One couple was in their 30s. All of them seem to have stable, happy marriages. Just because somebody chooses not to get laid doesn't mean they can't get laid. It just means they know how to control themselves and make wise choices. That is neither a crime nor a pathology.

dbz77
Try reading the rulebook -- the Bible. If you can't handle that, try researching the common factors that have been the keystone of all successful societies and all major religions.

Truth, righteousness, honor, duty, chastity, responsibility, and the rest of the traditional values have been recognized and promoted throughout the ages.

Idiot hedonists are trying to have these ideas thrown out of modern society but they will NOT succeed because without them no civilization can continue to stand.

It is not necessary to reinvent the wheel. It is only necessary to recognize that you are not the first person ever to exist on the face of the earth and that others have considered these questions before and, through experience, discovered the path of wisdom.

Kipling summarized it well in the poem, "If"

"IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
...

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!"

Psrents have to be very
careful of what is being taught in their children's schools.

It can be anything for anti-Christianity and pro-Islam to anti-moral considerations to pro-anal sex.

Many crazies, even principals, are running pub schools. They are not Constitutional and should be abolished.

dbz77
How do all the people around you know whether you are having sex or not?

That is, unless you hang out in a bath house.

The world according to TV
Recently, I was in a large electronics store, and on impulse, I bought a box set of DVDs, containing several episodes of the television series Sherlock Holmes, starring Jeremy Brett, which ran from 1984-1994.

As I watched the shows, I was struck by the very high quality production values of the series, and how true to the books it was. Not a speck of Political Correctness, and not a single scene of Holmes jumping in bed with "The Woman In Green," or even with Dr. Watson.

I remembered that it used to run on A&E, the Arts & Entertainment channel, which was known at that time for catering to a more highbrow viewer.

When did the network become just another cable station?

And when did it happen that EVERY show contains a Leftist world view, editing out all traditional values.

We can only blame ourselves, for not standing up and complaining!

where to begin
There are so many benefits to abstinence, whether by circumstance or by choice. You could grow up to be Paul the apostle, Einstein, or even our dear friend Sigmund Freud (all reportedly.) See, all you have to do is rechannel all that sexual angst into creating something truly revolutionary. You can even wait until marriage when sex is great, if you consider Saturday night, missionary only, lights off, great sex (of course, if you're Naughty, you can do it with the lights on). Heck, hamburger's great if you've never had filet mignon, rare of course.
And we all need to remember: Sex is just for making babies, and then only in the context of marriage where the man has to pay for his sinful pleasure by providing for his offspring. Real women abhor sex and just tolerate it for the sake of their marriage and children. Women should never have real orgasms, just fake them so your partner does not feel inadequate. Oh, wait, I just remembered, women don't have orgasms at all!! Women are there just to nurture children.
Yes, abstinence only is the proper educational approach. Only then can sex be properly relegated into its role for procreation only, while any incidental pleasure is cause for much soul searching and guilt.
While we're at it, let's revive Kellogg's assumption that masturbation causes "fatuity." There's probably some truth in that, but for darn sure it helps me sleep a lot of nights!

"Tolerate" becomes "celebrate"
The left has been on a half-century-long campaign to undermine virtue. Their initial approach was to invoke the principal of tolerance: "live and let live", "mind your own business", "government doesn't belong in the bedroom", etc.
This was quite popular, and has a similarity to Jesus telling us to "judge not". So most of society went along.

That sound you heard in the background was the other shoe. Now the left demands that we celebrate homosexuality by recognizing gay marriage. Virginity is mocked in the mainstream media as being a sign of undesirability and immaturity. Single mothers are considered heroes (I too admire women who are able to hold together a family all by themselves, but it is bad for the kids and bad for her). Divorce is considered normal, keeping an unpleasant marriage together is considered wrong.

I believe in grace, that is, giving people unmerited favor. I believe in mercy, that is, sparing a person the full brunt of the consequences of their actions. And I believe that we are all sinners, with no right to judge each other. It is because we are sinful that we need to put up some barriers to protect ourselves from our darker urges. We certainly shouldn't celebrate and encourage destructive behavior while discouraging virtue.

Screeb
Not only was Einstein not celibate, he was a notorious womanizer who put his wives and kids through hell. But he didn't hurt me personally, so I guess I can't say it was wrong, according to modern logic.

marxbrothers
Thank you for correcting me about Einstein. I actually enjoy being told when I am wrong. It helps increase my knowledge. I know all of the (reported) was speculation also.

Merry Christmas.

screeb
If that's your vision of marital sex it demonstrates conclusively that you have no clue whatsoever about marriage.

Spending decades growing in intimacy with your spouse makes for lovemaking that gets better and better and better every time as your understanding of each other's body and mind deepens.

Even with kids in the house I don't have to wait until Saturday night for a chance to maybe get lucky. I'm lucky any time I want to be lucky. And you might consider that I didn't get 4 kids by having mysterious headaches.

reply to Mountain Rose
I loved Jeremy Brett's Sherlock Holmes. I remember seeing it on PBS, which may have run it before A&E ran it. In any case, it wasoriginally shown on the British ITV network. Since Holmes was a snob and a drug user--Quick! The needle, Watson!-- I'm surprised you haven't pegged him as a liberal.

Gestell
You forget Rush Limbaugh.

I guess he is in good company.

to mother
I guess you are lucky. More power to you and your husband. I'm glad that you are happy with your sexual life.

Take Heart; There Is A "Counter Culture"
http://www.therebelution.com/about/

Screeb
1975 Redbook Magazine did the most extensive study of female sexuality ever. Studying 100,000 women. They were shocked to find that married and religious women had the most enjoyable and satisfying sex. In fact it found, "Sexual satisfaction is related significantly to religious belief. With notable consistency, the greater the intensity of a woman's religious convictions [and the more likely it is that she practiced pre-marital chastity], the likelier she is to be highly satisfied with the sexual pleasures of marriage."

What you are describing is a poor emotional relationship not a lack of technique.

screeb -- Not "Lucky" , pt 1
No, I'm not "lucky". I've received the ordinary and expected benefits of the choices I've made in my life.

I chose chastity and was a virgin when I married. I didn't exhaust myself emotionally and spiritually with a series of failed relationships that would have left emotional and spiritual scars to interfere with my ability to bond with my chosen husband. I didn't come into my marriage carrying any baggage in the form of STDs, illegitimate children, resentment at having been used, etc.

I chose to marry rather than shack up in a "refuse-to-commit" relationship. With no questions in our mind about the quality and permanence of the commitment my DH and I were free to trust each other in the way required to achieve true intimacy.

I chose to marry in my early 20's, within a few years of first living on my own. This means that I had the experience of being an adult away from the childhood home, but that I hadn't been on my own long enough to make singleness a bad habit.

I chose my husband with my head as well as my hormones. I didn't fall for the first man who came along -- having gently discouraged a good man who was interested in marriage when I was still in college and unready to settle down and having more forcefully rejected the loser who didn't want to take "no" for an answer and who was uninterested in holding down a steady job).

I found a Christian man of good character who is responsible, hardworking, funny, a fabulous father, and even physically attractive as well (though that isn't particularly important). I made sure that my decision was correct by taking the time in our courtship to pray and to think -- even having made him wait 6 months before I gave him an answer to his proposal.

I made my marriage vows intentionally and without reservations. I did not try to hold back a portion of myself but dedicated myself to the partnership of marriage rather than fearing to commit my all.

...

From dbz77, 6:27 PM:
"Everyone I know who is my age has had sex, so I have to have sex too."

The very definition of a sheeple.

screeb, Not "Lucky", pt 2
...

I did not burden my husband with the sole responsibility for my happiness. I did not expect unending sweetness and light without conflicts, disappointments, or the need to put in some effort.

I did not confuse the practice of chastity with "hating sex" but rather understood that from the moment of marriage my husband and I were free to enjoy each other fully. Anyone who needs to understand the proper, Christian attitude towards marital lovemaking needs to read and study the Song of Solomon.

My happiness in my marriage is NOT luck. It is the result of deliberately seeking to make wise decisions with morality, responsibility, and long-term results in mind.

When carefully and wisely made decisions turn out well it isn't luck. When hasty, careless, ill-thought-out decisions turn out badly that isn't luck either.

Those who have the best interests of our society's young people in mind will teach them how to make these life-influencing decisions wisely. Those who advocate foolishness that leads to long-term failure have only their own, selfish, personal agendas in mind and they will one day pay the price for their irresponsibility as they bear the guilt for the lives damage and ruined by their words and actions.

re: dbz77
Have to tried to be compassionate and sympathetic, and advise this poor soul to take up volunteer and family work so he'll be happier, to no avail. Apparently he wants to sit around whining. I'm done being polite to this "gentleman."

I will give him this, at least he's honest: he's not looking to CARE FOR or LOVE anyone, only to USE a girl, any girl, for his pleasure and so that he can "fit in" with those around him. THe emotional fallout for her, even leaving diseases/pregnancy aside, doesn't even *occur* to him. Hmm, I just can't imagine why he can't "get any." This is even aside from the moral questions that sex outside of marriage entails, and the harm it does others. Sex inside marriage is wonderful and helps the marriage; sex outside it tears apart at one's psyche, since the sex act itself says, "I belong totally body and soul to you" and doing that outside of marriage is called LYING WITH YOUR BODY, and damaging to both genders.

Counseling might help dbz77, but only to find out why he's so dependent on the opinions of others. It's not the virginity which makes him miserable, it's the self centered attitude.

I didn't make it to this site yesterday--cause I was BUSY caring for a sick relative, and happy to do it. I work at a great, challenging job, have a terrific family filled with brothers and sisters and nieces and nephews and my mom, lots of acquaintances and a few really good friends.
I do tons of volunteer work and have a very happy life. And, surprise, I'm a virgin.

Sir, enough people have told you this politely but you will not listen. So here is a more direct address. Get your bottom away from the computer and cancel the pity party. Spend your days serving others, and you will be fulfilled, and most of the time happy, I guarantee it. Live only to think of your own desires and revolve around yourself, and you will be miserable. The choice is yours.

Mountain rose and Mother of 4
I'm so happy to hear that you too have values that I and many others in this country have.
Sex is played as the only thing that makes life worth living.
We have the Sherlock shows too. Also, Agitha Christie's Poirot. There are many such shows that we play over and over.
Used to things were done so tastefully. Adults knew what was going on, and children had no idea.And people weren't having to see a groping sex scene in almost every movie whether it makes any sense to the plot or not.
Also Sherlock was a cocaine addict, it wasn't against the law back then, and Watson was constantly chiding Holmes for it.

Don't think Holmes was a liberal, he wanted to actually punish crooks.

Anti-Abstinence People Are Anti-Life
The people who oppose the abstinence philosophy also oppose human life and human rights.

The anti-abstinence crowd also supports and defends:

>>the child sex slave trade where Asian and African girls are kidnapped, forced into life destroying prositution, and often murdered.

>>the murder of 40-50 million babies in abortion clinics since Roe v Wade-a massively disproportionate number being African American babies (because they are genetically inferior according to the liberal Left).

>>the denial of using insecticides like DDT to destroy the mosquitos that are causing >10 million deaths in Africa due to malaria et al. According to the Left, the black Africans are too low socially, and 'protecting the environment' is more important than a black human life. And Left can't understand why Roy Innes calls them racists and Nazis.

>>the employ of illegal immigrants that take jobs away from African Americans.

>>internet pornography.

>>internet stalking of pre-teens by pedophiles-many of them being murderers.

The anti-abstinence crowd is made up mostly of atheists (like the one that murdered the people in the church and the one that murdered all the people in the shopping mall).

The truth is these anti-life people are the way they are because God is not part of their lives. The absolute truths spoken of in the Bible are unknown to them, which explains why they have such a cavalier attitude about human life.

To dbz77 pt 1
"Have you ever wondered why abstinence advocates never talk about their OWN history of abstinence?
Could it be that they would have to admit that they were to pathetic to get any?"

Well then, let me talk about mine. My parents didn't really teach me abstinence -- my father is a Baptist minister, so I guess they thought I'd just pick it up. And I did, to an extent.

I first had sex at the age of 16. After thinking about what I'd been taught, I decided that was a mistake which I shouldn't repeat.
I repeated it again at age 17 with one other girl. She would gladly have 'done it' far more often, but again I realized that I was erring so I shut the physical relationship down. There were four or five other girls in those two years with whom I got pretty frisky; it was I who stopped the proceedings prior to intercourse. At 18 I again 'succumbed to temptation' to use a nice phrase. This time the girl was the woman whom I'd eventually marry. Michelle, like me, had been taught that abstinence until marriage is the ideal. After a couple of 'incidents', I was already thinking the situation inappropriate... as did she; she demanded "If you respect me and if you want to enjoy me, have the guts to marry me".

Well, that's what I did. Our first years were tough, but we found that two partners working together can make it better through life than one. We've been joyfully married 19 years now.

(conclusions in the next post)

DRT
So you imply that every woman past their teens that I know, all who have had sex, supports and defends the child sex trade, millions of abortions, employment of illegal aliens, and internet pornography.

Furthermore, are you aware that over 95% of Americans have had premarital sex? Do nearly all Americans support the child sex trade? Or the employment of illegal aliens?

Of course, the fact that abstinence advocates (a small minority of adults who practice abstinence for various reasons, such as avoiding pregnancy, fitting in with their crowd, or appeasing Odin) are ashamed of their failure to get laid, to even get a girlfriend for the night, let alone a wife for life. That is why they resort to all sorts of falsehoods, and argue that those who do not do as they say are evil and anti-life.

Violet
Explain how caring about other people's thoughts and feelings is self-centered. Self-centered people generally do not care about what other people think of them.

The only relevant moral question is about being different. It is WRONG to be different. Fitting in is the first moral duty. It is certainly wrong to go against 95% of the population.

To dbz77 pt 2
I know you all have heard more than enough of my sordid past; so let's hear the conclusion of the matter.

What did I learn from my experiences?

First, that an adolescent's behavior need not be perfect for abstinence teaching (even the extremely limited sort I had) to be profitable. I had sex with three girls, and the total number of occasions was countable in the very low double digits. By contrast, the majority of my classmates, who didn't receive such wise training, had many, many more partners and experienced unwanted pregnancies, STDs, child-support rulings and undesirable emotional baggage that do not really constitute satisfactory ways to embark on adult life. Along with another traditionally-trained guy and his wife, Michelle and I are the ONLY ones of our class not divorced as of our late thirties.

Second, I learned that it really doesn't hurt to abstain from sex. Many, many were the occasions I wanted to but decided against it. Guess what? Exercising a little self-discipline didn't injure me in the least.

Third, I learned that the most worthy woman around is the one who respects herself and expects that others should do the same. Michelle and I have been married 19 years; the only other members of my graduating class to not be divorced are the few who could never attract a spouse, and the ones who tried hard to exercise self-discipline until marriage, as I did.

Fourth, I learned that the decision to abstain may be *made* rather than enforced by one's inability to attract partners. By far the largest limitation on my sexual activity was not the relative willingness of girls to sleep with me -- there were several -- it was my own conscience. I wan't guilt-ridden then, nor am I now - I just decided I really didn't want to make any more mistakes than I had to.

Yes, Michelle and I are teaching our girls abstinence until marriage -- and at the appropriate age we tell them why.

dbz77
You asked:
"Explain how caring about other people's thoughts and feelings is self-centered."


Good question.

Vanity (that is, caring too much about what other people think, wanting them to think well of oneself **at the cost of doing what's right**) is a very self-centered vice, because it's "all about you." (right and wrong be damned, what do they think OF ME?)

I'm guilty of vanity myself. But it is a vice, and I don't sugarcoat that to myself, and I regret when I don't do something I should do --like refrain from listening to gossip, for example--because I'm afraid of what the gossiper will think of me if I gently cut the gossip off. And the harm you would do to a girl by "using" her sexually to, basically, feed your ego and improve your status in the eyes of others (not to care for HER, notice your motivation), would also be morally wrong.

You said: "The only relevant moral question is about being different. It is WRONG to be different. Fitting in is the first moral duty. It is certainly wrong to go against 95% of the population."

How do I gently put this? This statement is seriously in error. When you know something to be right and those around you are not doing it, it is HEROISM, not "wrong," to go against the flow. Rosa Parks went against a majority, so did Martin Luther King Jr, so did Gandhi, so did Jesus, so did many other heroes. The question is, what is right, not what is popular.

Talli2long
Nice posts; thank you.

Thanks to others for sharing too. Lots of great stories on this thread about how people kept or returned to their chastity before marriage. Self control is inspiring to others, and shows that a happy and fulfilling life can lie at the end of the discipline road, however temporarily challenging it is.

dbz
dbz: "Where I am, adult virgins definitely do not fit in."

Um, ever thought about moving? Or, at least not hang out with that crowd? There's a saying in the Bible that goes something like this - Bad Company corrupts good character. Get with people who lift you up morally and spiritually.

Did I call it, or what:
"The only relevant moral question is about being different. It is WRONG to be different. Fitting in is the first moral duty. It is certainly wrong to go against 95% of the population."

dbz - seeking something?
I've been reading your posts and I'm getting the impression that you actually might be seeking for some sort of help, or maybe more answers. Could be wrong but I notice when people post a lot on a particular article/topic and they constantly oppose other posters that are in agreement, my guess is that person is really seeking... seeking what I'm not sure. (I get that impression with bawaa, bubba, and a few others but let's not go there)

This life can be hard and the pressures of sex are enormous. If you are seeking answers, please look up your local phone book or better yet, a Christian church. There are some churches out there that provide ministries for all kinds of life issues/struggles and if they don't, perhaps they can direct you to one that can.

To yankette
BAWAA would of necessity deny this, but he is unable to put God and Christians out of his mind; he revolves around them despite his insistence that he is happy and fulfilled in his atheist life.

There is a reason for this, obviously. People need God, even if they don't know it; even if they hate it.

Violet
I know that being a virgin at thirty is not right.

dbz77
OK, I'll bite: what is "not right" about it? Please explain.

To dbz77
"I know that being a virgin at thirty is not right".

A trifle dogmatic. Who are you to decide what is right for every other individual? That isn't merely intolerant -- it is downright totalitarian.

dbz77
If you've never been married at 30 then being a virgin IS right.

But if you are a worthwhile human being, rather than a self-centered mess or a blob of human jello, and you have not been called to a life of exclusive dedication to an all-consuming goal then there is no reason not to married well before age 30.

Of course neither sitting around wallowing in self-pity nor vainly chasing the approval of the unworthy crowd will aid in finding your life's mate.

Nor is it likely that a woman worth committing your life to will to be found in a bar or at some drunken, hook-up party.

But if you get off your self-pitying rear end and go do something with your life you'll be likely to find that worthwhile woman out doing something with her life.

Go to church. Go to school. Take up a sport. Join a club. Volunteer somewhere. Get a better job. Hang out in places where thoughtful intelligent people do interesting things instead of in places where dumb and thoughtless people numb their brains with alcohol and drugs because they're too stupid to think of anything better to do.

Work on a political campaign. Join a MOOG online. Learn how to cook. Learn how to build web pages. Take a first aid course and get your CPR certification. Take one of MIT's free, online college courses: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm

Do *something* to differentiate your self from the human jello who flop mindelessly into the gutter and comform to the lowest hollow.

Most challenging of all, spend a measly 30 minutes each day doing something solely intended to make someone else's life a little easier and more pleasant.

You'll be amazed at the difference in yourself and amazed at the difference in how people think about you.

dbz77
I'll make my question more specific for you:
I'm _over_ thirty and I'm a virgin. (I'm happy about it, by the way, because there are lots of sources of joy in the world, not just the one.) Why in your opinion is that "not right?"

And more to the point: Since what you think doesn't make me any less happy to be a virgin, and if everyone on here thought like you I'd feel the same way, *why* do you think it means nothing to me what you (all) think about my virginity and it means everything to you what others think of your virginity?

This isn't meant as a rude question. It's meant to get to you think about why you're so enslaved to what others think of you that you're miserable about your life, a very sad state to be in.

You know others including me have told you what mother_of_4 said today: Help others and you will be happier.

Mother of 4
Sorry, I meant "Mother of 4" !
Your posts are great BTW, Mother of 4, on this thread and others. Keep up the great work!

To Mother of 4
I strongly suspect -- and fervently hope -- that dbz77 is 'Father of 0'.

Talli2long
dbz77 is a 29-year old (or maybe 30 by this time) virgin.

Violet
Thank you.

Having teens of my own, I've put a lot of thought into these issues -- especially since my own sister is one who took the wrong path and who has both the trail of broken relationships and the emotional scarring that leads to the inability to form a truly committed relationship to show for it.

GESTELLE*

....."I'm SHOCKED, SHOCKED I tell you. Liberals telling women that liberation comes through promiscuity? ...Liberals encouraging children to have "safe" sex? ...Liberals declaring that abstinence can't work? ...passing out condoms and birth control pills? ...teens getting abortions without parental notification? ...how long has this been going on?" .....COLOSSUS

dbz77
"The only relevant moral question is about being different. It is WRONG to be different. Fitting in is the first moral duty. It is certainly wrong to go against 95% of the population."

dbz77 - Thursday, December, 20, 2007 12:30 PM

*****************

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that while the Paris Hiltons of the world may behave this way, no sane adult would actually verbalize this as a tenet to live by.

If not, it's hard to know quite where to begin with such a warped idea of morality. What population shall we discuss as our social structure in order to define "norms"? The globe? America? Your own social circle? MTV? A consensus of the people driving in your car at a given moment?

I think we are all curious to know which "population" you would choose to use as the benchmark from which deviation is "immoral." And we're curious about the larger question: Just how do you ascertain what is and is not moral in the first place? A show of hands? Your intuition? The Supreme Court?

Let's talk some of these basics first before we talk about sex.

Mother of 4
A trail of broken relationships can not possibly be worse than no relationships at all.

Replies
"This isn't meant as a rude question. It's meant to get to you think about why you're so enslaved to what others think of you that you're miserable about your life, a very sad state to be in."- violet
I value the opinions of people around me, especially those who are more successful than I am.

"I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that while the Paris Hiltons of the world may behave this way, no sane adult would actually verbalize this as a tenet to live by.
"- NevadaDad

Paris Hilton herself does not behave to conform with California's population, let alone America's population.

Studies show that 95% of America's population has engaged in premarital sex.
"A trifle dogmatic. Who are you to decide what is right for every other individual? That isn't merely intolerant -- it is downright totalitarian."- Talil2Long
Abstinence advocates claim to know what is right for every other individual.

dbz77
A man of character who does something with his life other than waiting for someone else to hand him happiness will not lack for the opportunity to develop a relationship.

Robert E Lee
My husband read that report a few weeks ago.

Like the vast majority of married, Christian men, he's got that covered and we had a good laugh about it.


Where do people find this stuff?
This article describes something so outrageous that it's hard to believe it's real. The link provided in the article does indeed lead to the G-CAPP resources page, but I don't find any references there to a "midwest teen sex show" or anything of the kind. I'm sure as hell not going to google it. Can anyone else verify that this thing actually exists _and_ is being promoted by G-CAPP? Otherwise this is a lot of indignation over nothing.

Rjen
The videos do exist, but the link has been taken down at G-CAPP. Ms. Graber says as much in her next article.

Here's a link to the content under discussion:
http://midwestteensexshow.com

My daughter is a fourth grade school teacher. She is absolutely shocked at the material. If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, and even having seen it, it is very hard to believe what is being purveyed.
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