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Tuesday, May 08, 2007
Mary Grabar :: Townhall.com Columnist
Little Girls in Head Scarves
by Mary Grabar
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For my reprieves from the academic, and for inspiration for my creative writing, I like to walk a trail around a lake in a community about a mile from where I live. This former summer community is an island of artsy-ness and progressivism, and higher real estate prices than the brick ranch houses like the one I live in. A locally famous folk-singing lesbian couple reportedly lives there, and that gives the community extra cachet.

Many of the cars in the neighborhood sport bumper stickers with the word “coexist” amidst symbols of various religions, and no one seems to enforce the residents-only rule for fishermen or picnickers.

Since no signs are posted against taking walks around the lake I feel no guilt in taking my constitutionals there; I return the greetings of dog-walkers and fishermen.

One afternoon, deep in the poetic reverie the lake and trees and birds inspire, I came across a sight spooky against this natural sunny backdrop: a woman completely swathed in black with only slits for her eyes. The incongruous sight of women, peering out of slits of cloth, in full Islamic regalia, behind the wheels of mini vans or paying for goat meat at the Publix is no longer that unusual in my neighborhood, though it still takes me aback. But here on a sunny afternoon, amidst ducks and geese, and gazebos and picnic tables, came this creature who looked like the Ghost of Christmas Past with two small children: the boy around four years old dressed in typical Western clothing of pants and a shirt. The girl, about age seven, wore the traditional head scarf and long dress.

And there I saw myself.

I will never understand the feminist defense of this obliteration of a woman’s identity. This defense is put forth even by 18-year-olds, who repeat the regnant doctrine of relativism. I posed the question to my college freshmen, “Don’t you think it’s better for women to wear clothes that allow them free movement and the ability to communicate?”

“Well,” goes the answer, “to them [“them” being the key word] their dress represents freedom because no one views them as sex objects. And what do they think of our way of dressing in shorts and stuff?” This from a girl dressed in a shoulder-and-cleavage-revealing tank top.

I have had debates about this with liberals. But particularly for those who do not speak the language, facial expressions convey meaning and indicate good will and friendship. I was so used to greeting everyone I passed around the lake with a smile and a hello that in this context the isolation of this woman glared. For all their Simone de Bevoir-inspired academic talk and analysis about the “gaze,” feminists cannot see this blatant disregard for the connection of the woman, particularly the woman who cannot speak the language, with the outside world. Not even able to feel the sun on her skin, the woman was cut off from the human community, encased in a shroud. I had visions of old footage of women from the Soviet Union in head scarves, shoveling the streets, pushing wheelbarrows.

I looked at her children: the boy who wore the clothes that gave him freedom of movement and allowed him to blend in with other children. But there was the girl, already being trained by the scarf for a reclusive life of subservience. I saw myself in the little girl, saw myself, the immigrant daughter of Slovenian parents who felt that the value of a daughter was in her service and that an education beyond eighth grade was a waste.

But I grew up in a culture that in the 1960s and 1970s did not adopt my parents’ ways. Rather, I and my Eastern European friends adapted to American ways. We adapted the fashions, the manners, and the attitudes.

A field trip to a public library, in Rochester, New York, opened a new world for me. With my precious yellow library card I took home books from a mote-filled library (now long closed after the riots). Once the books were in my room I could steal moments from my chores and before bedtime. I was drawn to a series of books bound in pink about a family of Victorian girls.

And that was my introduction to the culture of the West, specifically its wonderful patriarchal and chivalrous culture, borne of Christianity.

I don’t remember the titles or the author of the pink-bound books, but I do remember reading about a family of girls who were treasured by their father. These books exposed me to a culture that cherished, protected, and respected women--and that contrasted to the ways of my peasant parents. After reading the books I began to see that daughters of Americans were not treated like servants and sequestered in their homes. I began to think about putting myself through college and started a fund from cleaning houses and babysitting for neighbors. Books became my refuge and I began to reject some of the ways of my parents.

This process is called assimilation and at one time it was the expected course of events. For me, it represented freedom.

But as I remember the little girl in her head scarf in 2007 I see no such future for her. Indeed it is becoming more common to see college women wearing the traditional scarves, sometimes with blue jeans. Those who call themselves “progressive” would keep her in her head scarf, veil, and long gown. They defend her “choice” of wearing the garb of her mother. In fact, fashion shows and magazine spreads assimilate this fashion. A recent one in Marie Claire promoted such attire as adapted by designers. The hijab is chic.

And the women who escape from this culture and dare to speak up about it like the Somali refugee, and former member of the Dutch parliament, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, are attacked by those like Newsweek’s Arab-American writer, Lorraine Ali. Conversely, one need only pick up any feminist tract to see de rigor attributions of patriarchal oppression to Christianity. Even literary criticism, as I learned in graduate school, propounds anti-Western vitriol.

Given the messages of “coexistence,” and the dogma of multiculturalism that pervades our educational system, the little girl in the scarf will have nowhere to turn for an alternative to her seventh-century culture. She will not be exposed in a favorable way to the ideals of the West in the literature she reads, whether it be in her textbooks or library books. Her teachers will be so timid about defending the West that they will not be able to explicitly state that some practices of her culture, such as genital mutilation, are wrong. College freshmen are already indoctrinated.

Little do the multiculturalists care about the little girl who will become like her mother, walking in a prison of black cloth, isolated, without identity, not even able to feel the sun. But they are the same ones, the ones who so detest their own culture, that they are blind to the barbarism in our midst. It may be too late for the woman swathed in black, but we need to reach her daughter. This essay was originally published in The American Spectator on April 24, 2007.

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About The Author
Mary Grabar earned her Ph.D. in English from the University of Georgia and teaches in the Atlanta area. She is a Pushcart Prize-nominated poet and published fiction writer. Visit her website and get on her mailing list at marygrabar.com
 
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Yooper, you are a hypocrite
Funny that you didnt mention the most disgusting massacres in the US. oh wait but these heinous crimes were not committed by Muslims, so why bother, huh!!

Just few days ago, the worst school shooting in the history of the US was committed by a non-Muslim..but thats ok with you, he wasnt a muslim and you it didnt affect your family.

The Columbine shooting??

The guru priest who murdered hundreds of his followers in the 70s.

David Koresh in Texas...

And the list is still long beyond the scope of this forum.

Hypocrite necon.


Ok, Multiculturalists, here's a test
I CHOOSE to carry a gun for self-defense.
Test:

A. I am Evil.
B. The gun is Evil.
C. Both are evil.
D. Evil does not exist.
E. So what, it's your culture.
F. Run!!!!!!!!!!

Letters to the head scarves column
I am so glad that you guys know what leftists think and believe. Without your explantions of who leftist are and what they think and believe America's leftists would be unable to get dressed each morning and turn on their computers and read and accept your judgments of them.

The world does not hate America. Only ignorant right wingers say that and even believe it. The world hates America's current arrogant, ignorant administration, America's abusive business practices and its lack of awareness of the rest world and its values.

Christianity Leads to Islam
First, a clarification. Sharkie had said, "Before long we will be required to honor Sharia law - as they are now doing in England." As an ex-pat living in England, I can tell you that's false. British law does NOT endorse Sharia law. If anything, the British are even more alarmed by Muslim extremism than Americans are, because they have much larger populations of Muslim immigrants in a smaller area. I'm not saying that Sharia isn't practiced here. A few months ago, an incredibly brave Muslim woman named Gina Khan came out and exposed how Muslim men are practicing it here. However, that's a far cry from the British government endorsing it.

Now, on to my main topic. Islam's treatment of women is simply the extreme end of a continuum that includes Christianity. Patriarchal Christianity in America teaches that women's role is to stay at home and have as many children as possible. I know, because I was raised in this culture and I can show you "Christian" websites that teach it. Men have greater sexual needs, so their wishes always come first. Men are supposed to have all the authority and make all the final decisions. There is even a school of Christianity that teaches that wives should be "disciplined" if they "disobey" their husbands. It is no coincidence that patriarchal Christian marriages have one of the highest rates of abuse of any group--including atheists--in America.

In regards to clothing, many in this branch of Christianity teach that it's sinful for a woman to wear pants, cut her hair, or wear make-up and jewelry. After all, we can't be tempting the men to lust by gazing at those provocative women. Given all this, it is only a short step to requiring that women cover up all together in the name of "modesty," and enforcing that edict by saying that God/Allah will punish you if you don't.

Restrict Immigration
Why are we opening our country to increasing numbers of people from cultures that are inimical to ours -- do we have a death wish -- or rather, do our leaders have a death wish for us?

The plotters of massacre at Ft. Dix were from families housed at Ft. Dix when fleeing Albania where they received food and shelter, medical care, education and green cards. The houses they have bought probably were bought with the help of our tax money. Then they turn a round and try to kill our soldiers.

Ditto the Salt Lake City killer -- he was flown back to Albania where he had a hero's funeral.

Donna Shalala, Clinton's crony, arranged for all these Muslims to be settled in ordinary American neighborhoods so that Americans could get used to the wider world. Thanks, Donna.

WAKE UP, PEOPLE!

Muslims can be fine Americans
Lon writes (to deb): "I think the explanation with the male priest tends to also point to the fact that Peter was male and the other apostles. But it is hard to believe that the maleness is the essential feature of Jesus. Jesus was also ethnically jewish as were all the apostles, but there does not seem to be any push to make anyone who stands in for Jesus be ethnically jewish. To identify that as an essential feature of Jesus would seem to be to misunderstand his message."

Brilliant point and excellent post.

heatseeker writes: "God is male. I'm sorry if some people are offended by that, but if you believe the Bible, then you have to believe that."

Says who? That's ridiculous. No, heatseeker, I do not have to believe that. And while Jesus was male, the notion that God has a gender is rather silly.

"That Christianity places more authority on men than women is NOT a problem. It is part of our belief."

Again, says who? It is fine for you to believe that, but to suggest that all Christians MUST agree is stupid.

DVangura writes: "In the US, taxi cab driver refuse to take passengers with service animals, i.e. seeing-eye dogs, in violation of the Americans with Disabilyt Act, AND the left defends there actions."

This simply isn't true. A taxi-driver can deny service to passengers with service animals only if the driver has a medical reason. (I.e. an allergy) Otherwise, you lose your license for that.

Len writes: "I don't think it is unreasonable to view pregnancy as the utilization of one's body for the benefit of another. If we cannot force a mother to give blood to a borne child then how do we rationalize penalizing a woman(by forcing her to go for illegal abortions under unsafe conditions) for terminating this dependency.? So what is called privacy refers to this dilemna. Comes the day when dead people and criminals who have murdered by law have to give body parts to save others, then, the argument for legalized abortion dissappears. Until that day, we should not have a double standard of the "sanctity of life" Right now our constitional law supports the sanctity of owning your own body free from government intrustion. And only in abortion do we here arguments for exceptions."

Wow. Great point.

Scooter writes: " If feminists are so against polygomy" and "Look furthur at the right of Gay Marriage but not Plurality Marriage"

Not all feminists are against polygomy. In fact, all of the people I personally know who practice it could reasonably be considered feminists. (And, no, while I know a few Mormans, I don't know any who practice it.) If the thrust of your argument is that both should be legal, I agree with you.

I often find threads here to be too hate filled to take anything from. You'd expect someone with a PhD in English to do a little better job. (And thanks to whoever looked up those corrections.) But, this is the best thread I've ever seen here. I find that the list of specific comments I'd like to respond to is too long for the available time, so I'll settle for some random points.

On Muslims and Islam: Way too much fear, hatred and intollerance here on this. Some of the commenters would benefit from reading the writings of those Burka covered women. It's true that female genital mutlation is practiced here. And I don't see any hesitation in the efforts of folks around here (Mpls) to try to stamp it out. While we're not hanging the practitioners, we are putting them through the Court system. Their first time is their last time around here. And we have special programs designed to help deal with this issue and health programs to assist the victims. Sadly, it is often the older women who display the greatest resistance. So, it is not so clear that the blame should be heaped upon the heads of men. I wonder how much of the hatred is really directed toward immigrants. I suspect that the majority of our Muslims are immigrants or converts. As far as driver's license photos, in MN currently you can wear a scarf but not a veil. Before the law change, I was forced to remove my scarf for the photo. (It was a tie-dyed gift from my kids.) Last time, I was allowed to wear what I wished. So, I think the Muslim assimulation process has actually increased my rights. I'm all for sending the terrorists to claim their 72 virgins as quickly as we can manage, but it wrong and misguided to claim that Islam and all its practitioners are bad. And Christians who do so are in danger of being the pot who is calling the kettle black.





Ingrid Mattson, the first woman to be
elected to head the largest islmic organization in America.

Mattson is the first woman, the first nonimmigrant and the first Muslim convert to be elected to head the largest Islamic group for social outreach and education in North America.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16242486/site/newsweek/


Canadian woman to head major Muslim group
The Associated Press


http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/08/28/muslim-group.html

Only Truth II
Now you're bashing Zionism. That's code for anti-semitism. Read your copy of Mein Kampf lately?

Only Truth
How many Amish women have blown up buses full of innocent people with bombs under their clothing? That's the difference.

Modesty and modest clothing are one thing, shrouds are another. There are only two reasons to wear sheets like that. One is to hide your identity aka the KKK and the other is to dehumanize the wearer aka "the religion of peace."

Zionist bugs are crawling all over !
It's time to bring out the Zionist bashing foam !

Islam or Reality
Well, here we go again. We have a lively discussion about the lack of toleration for humans by the Muslims, but the Liberal commentators try to turn the subject to Catholic and Jewish theology and practice---or just blind eyes to reality.

I don't know about the Jewish community, but the Catholic nuns---who, by the way, don't dress so differently from the norm anymore---choose to subjugate themselves to defined authority for their own religious reasons. All women aren't covered by such choices---certainly not the Muslim woman. By the way, how many Islamic nuns are there?

You defenders of Islam are almost as dangerous as the Muslims themselves because you're so accommodating of them. Don't you understand their beliefs? Doesn't the violence or miscegenation bother you?

Mohammed had 9 [or 11 or 13, depending on source] wives. He spread his beliefs by the sword. He conquered as much countryside as he could to insure his 'religion' would survive and flourish. Are we to believe that Gabriel, an Angel, came to him in a cave as inspiration to write the Koran? A Koran professing the subjugation of women and expansion by violence? Assuming [a big assumption that's very doubtful] that it's true, why him/her/it? I'm surprised. Why didn't God come to him? Or maybe Mohammed wasn't so close to God after all. [Radical Islamists please e-mail your death threats directly to me, and don't bother cartoonists or Townhall. Ditto to the Liberals.]

We live in a World threatened by Islam and the reality of violence. Why won't the Liberals of all countries recognize this? Are they so stupid or cowardly as to close their eyes and ears? Do they actually have eyes and ears?

Oft-times, I wonder.

Heatseeker
As I read this thread I kept wanting to respond to DS's absurd leaps of logic such as his/her gratuitous attacks on the Amish and Hasidic Jews, i.e. As for the Amish community I hear a lots of incests going on," What an unconscionable slur! I was relieved to see you respond promptly and eloquently with sense and reason probably much better than I could do.

College women should not marry Muslims
Great article.

"Given the messages of “coexistence,” and the dogma of multiculturalism that pervades our educational system, the little girl in the scarf will have nowhere to turn for an alternative to her seventh-century culture. ... Her teachers will be so timid about defending the West that they will not be able to explicitly state that some practices of her culture, such as genital mutilation, are wrong. College freshmen are already indoctrinated"

College women should LEARN what the TRUE low status of women is in Islam. They are worth about half a man...they (if really good) might end up in "heaven" as the head wife to husband's harem of 72 virgins. They may be beaten in certain circumstances...Thus, any college woman who meets an attractive polite Muslim man should do her research first before considering marriage.

Only Truth
Since you seem to think you know it all, you are aware all of the religions you listed today especially the Amish have elements of oppression right? We zero in on Burka's because Muslims zeroed in on us. I have as yet to see an Amish person fly a plane into a building. We also zero in due to the hypocrisy of the left. You claim to be for civil rights and for the little guy but as it turns out it's all just platitudes. You guys are for everything as long as it costs you nothing.

May Day plus 7
Ayyyy Comrade Chairman,,,, many people are upset about the muslims inability to assimilate with the greater culture in thier dress...
SHHHHHH my young CADRE,, our allies in the leftest camps are protecting the religious freedom of these.
But Chairman,,, did we not outlaw polygomy? Is this not also a religious freedom? The Muslims are they not also allowed more than 1 wife? If feminists are so against polygomy then how can they be FOR a religion that OK'S practices that we claim DEGRADE women.
AHHHHHH my young CADRE, it all comes down to who votes (most often) with whom. Muslims today generally vote democratic,, so FEMINISTS will view thier traditions as religious freedom. The fundamentalists that practice POLYGAMY generally vote republican, so the double standard is OK.
Look furthur at the right of Gay Marriage but not Plurality Marriage,,,even though POLYGAMY has been practiced in most cultures of the world and has a historical record forever, since these folks don't vote with us we can claim this as bad. But not gay marriage why that is a right, they vote for us....

mistakes
sorry for the few mistakes in grammar, kids pets and wife make it hard to concentrate

Islam's threat to womem
Women do not choose to wear the garb, they are forced. They for the most part cannot talk unless allowed to they cannot drive get an education or for that matter walk with the male. they must follow several feet behind. Most on this thread have no clue to what sharia forces on women so they just look the other way. We need to stop the Neville Chamberlain look on Islam that if we just don't make them mad they will leave us alone.

Women in the muslim world are slaves to the men that are fathers brothers or husbands.They are personal property of men and that is it. For all of you sympathic naive fools how would you like your female family members murdered simply because they wanted to really choose who to marry or just because you were seen with the person who was sunni and you were shia.

Last week on Drudge was a story of that nature, a seventeen yesr girl stoned because she was seen talking to a snni boy.

Stop sayong muslim woman choose to wear it your 100% wrong and need to get educated on facts efore you espouse your lies


Discussing politics, religion is heathen
Our Politicians are the stooges of the Zionist and religion is a personal matter for each one of us.

So, if we keep politics and religion out of discussion, I suppose most of us can get along very well.

Because
I'm a big mean man who has no tolerance for silly little arguments. Elevate your questions to a level where I don't have to stoop too far down, and we'll have a conversation.

Head scraf & Amish ladies.
Voltaire,

Like a frog in the well, perhaps you are only aware of a " naked truth " about western bimbos !
Respectable ladies and girls of all three religions have the option to dress modestly in public as required in their respective religions. Head Scarf is also worn by Amish women too and look no one talks about it.

Why do we have all this prejudice ?

SandMan
Yes, the ability to edit one's posts would be a nice improvement to the site. That, and a short one-line description under the title of each article on the Columnists page, since it's often hard to get the subject matter without opening the link.

typo correction
make that "heathen" Islamist. sorry.

Only Truth
The Zionists? Ah, methinks an anti-Semite may be lurking in our midst - Maybe one of those heathem Islamists?

Only Truth was an Internet soul
Who would type before thinking at all
Gloating "why, am I clever!
I'm sharper than ever!"
While embarrassing himself as a troll. ;-)

Jewish women head scraf !
It's the scarf that Orthodox Jewish women wear. How come Zionist do not talk about it ?

Rayc55
I think that an adult living in the USA is able to choose how she lives. I fully understand the fear while in a predominately Muslim country, but I haven't seen any killings in the US perpetrated for failure under Shari'a law. Is it easy to shuck off the yoke of Shari'a law? No, but it wasn't easy back in the 20's and 30's to convert to Catholocism in much of America, yet people did it. No, Protestants didn't murder people for converting, but there were physical repercussions (my mother can tell you about it).

Only Truth: As Voltaire mentions in his 3:10 post, the burka is only a symbol of the greater issue of Islam and the incompatibility of Islam with US culture/society.

reply to lowry
Hi. I read you regularly on NRO and find you on the ball. But here, re Guilani, I find you as "insincere" as he is. This abortion issue is a snake in the political process and few can deal it with it rationally.

What struck me to write was your calling it a canard when Rudy expressed concern that women would go to jail if abortion were illegal. Of course, a canard, but you fail to go beyond that and ask why would not women be prosecuted for illegal abortions whilte the person they hired for the task would be prosecuted. Nowhere else in the law do we experience this absurdity that the one who contracts for a crime goes scot free. And that is the crux of the issue in abortion which you avoid and people like Rudy are not willing to speak the truth because like Lincoln, who modified his speeches in southern and northern Ill during the Lincoln Douglas debates, is trapped the political necessities.


But you are not a politician; hence, we should expect more.

Why does the Taliban have no difficulty executing a woman if she aborts but we will not even send her to jail for one day? Because we in the West do not experience abortion in our gut, so to speak, as the same as a woman throwing her 1 year old off the bridge. And hence, if a law allowed for prosecuting a woman(which has never been the case) you could not find a jury in the USA that would convict her.

Think about this. Your sister discovers in 5th month she has a down's syndrome child. She does not want it regardless of all the attempts to convince her otherwise. Her husband is a surgeon who is willing to have the child. She refuses and tells him if he will not perform the abortion she will go for back alley one. He performs the abortion. You find out.
Do you go the authorities? Suppose not even a handicapped fetus. She just decided at this point in her life,she has had it raising children. Do you go to the authorities?
And if you do go to the authorities, how are you going to rationalize that the husband who reluctantly performed the abortion goes to jail and your sister goes on with her life?

I raise this as a thought question to indicate the dilemna in abortion. It is not the same as what goes on after birth. That is not an abstract argument; it is the way we experience it.

And so, I would think that it is a matter of individual conscience. I find it intellectually intolerable that we force women to go for illegal abortons, unsafe, prosecute the abortionist, and let the sane woman off free and yet expose her to harm. I cannot rationalize this. Can you?

And now to the consititionality of Roe Wade. As I stated abortion is a snake in the political discourse. Shall we evaluate Lincoln on his views on abortion? Totally irrelevant to any politician's power to do much about it. In hindsight it would have been better if abortion left to states so it would not be a snake in our political dialogue. But it is here. You say bad constitional law. One can argue both sides of it.

Why is it that in in operating room, blood is needed for patient and there is none available, that the Doctor and staff are not obligated by law to donate a pint of their own? Why is it that if criminal destroys both kidneys of his victim by gunshot wounds, that we cannot force the criminal to give up one of his kidneys to help his victim live? Why is it that when we die the law cannot compel that the organs be taken to save others' live? Why is that a mother is criminally liable for not feeding her child but not criminally liable for refusing to donate blood to save her child?

What all the above have in common is our defintion of liberty which includes a prohibition against the government utilizing a citizen's body for the good of others. There are few exceptions. One, taking blood from a criminal as evidence and threat of quarantine if an individual refuses a vaccine in severe epidemic. The draft is also an exception where one will utilize one's body for the general good, but even here, we cannot order a solider to give an ounce of blood to save his general.

I don't think it is unreasonable to view pregnancy as the utilization of one's body for the benefit of another. If we cannot force a mother to give blood to a borne child then how do we rationalize penalizing a woman(by forcing her to go for illegal abortions under unsafe conditions) for terminating this dependency.? So what is called privacy refers to this dilemna. Comes the day when dead people and criminals who have murdered by law have to give body parts to save others, then, the argument for legalized abortion dissappears. Untill that day, we should not have a double standard of the "sanctity of life" Right now our constitional law supports the sanctity of owning your own body free from government intrustion. And only in abortion do we here arguments for exceptions. And that is what the the Court had to deal with in Roe,

The moral experience. If most of use knew of a friend who refused to give a pint of blood to save a soldier who was wounded, we would
shun and hopefully ostracize such. But few of us have that feeling of revulsion of people we know who aborted. Why is that? As stated above, we don't experience as a signficant moral outrage. And because we have no consensus on this is another argument to leave up to individuals and not force people to use unsafe illegal means to abort where abortion is the exception for many in the liberty concept of total control of your own body even if such control may lead to death of others as for example in not donating organs or not forcing murderers to donate their organs.

So dont be too hard on Guilani. No politician talks straight. I would be willing to pull the switch on OJ simpson; is Sam Brownback willing to pull the switch on a mother who aborted, "murdered", a human being in the womb, as he sees it. I doubt it. So where is the honesty.

A personal note. I had a elderly neighbor who had benefitted from bone transplants to support teeth impants. I implored him to become an organ donor and indicate such on his license. When it came time for renewal of license, he did not do that. I felt outraged that he would take body parts from others and refuse to reciprocate. I broke relations with him.(I have doubts whether I did the right thing at this writing; he is now dead). Whether I some crazy fanatic I dont know, but I know that I would not feel that moral outrage on someone who aborted. Am I unique? So who has more respect for life?



Only Truth
What's a scraf? Is it the sound one makes after reading inspired posts such as yours?

Burqas, Catholic Nuns & Zionist scrafs
All three religions have specific dresses to show modesty of religious women. It is basically meant to say " I am off limits to all strangers ".

The problem is that ignorant mutts zero in on burqas !

LITTLE GIRLS IN HEAD SCARVES
With the thousands of words written about this article you all make the same basic mistake, the Muslim women CHOOSE to wear the burka.They do not CHOOSE, they must wear the shroud like clothes or face DEATH from their enlightened brothers.

Voltaire
Thanks for the response. I read with interest your post and agree with your points. Maybe my plebian brain was focused too narrowly and I didn't make the point that I find Muslim "culture" incompatible with our own society. I focused merely on the narrow confines of the column, attire.


Sandman
Which tradition are you talking about; the one where legal immigrants are treated with derision and repressed economically until they reject their heritage? Did you ever eat a pizza? You know it’s not really Italian but it’s not American either and it’s popular all over the country. That melting pot is also our tradition.

Whoops - correcting my post of 3:40

The third paragragh should read:

But, unlike these Buddhist monks who were only harming themselves, it is uniquely Islam that promotes homicide as a religious duty.

MikeR
Sorry pal, for your naivete. It doesn't surprise me that someone of your worldview would find it distasteful that someone else believes in championing their vision for a better world. I am sorry that you feel a desire to win in the struggle of ideas poses a threat to whatever vague concept of existence you find preferable.

On the other hand, your position does explain a) why so much of the barbarian culture has been able to find traction in this country, and b) why YOU will ultimately find yourself on the losing side of the culture war. For culturally mongrelized metrosexuals like yourself, the only question is which cultural vision ends up subsuming yours.

Assimilation Movement is Needed
One of the primary difficulties in combating the multiculturalist rot that is infecting this country has been the failure of its opponents to frame the debate in terms of what they are “for.” It is not enough to be against something. A more proactive agenda is required, in order to inspire people sufficiently to reverse the spiral of civilizational entropy that is currently gripping this nation.

That is why I think conservatives should actively promote a pro-assimilation movement. This country has ample reason to draw confidence from its unequalled record of achievement, and the ethos that made it possible. It is only natural that if we, as a nation, believed in the rightness of our own traditional approach to human interaction that we would want to promote and perpetuate its ideals among those who choose, of their own free will, to come here. It is a low and degraded creature, in my opinion, who would feel otherwise.

Voltaire's Post of 3:10 p.m.

Voltaire, you get my vote for the best post of an impressive thread.

I recall as a youth looking (with a mix of horror and fascination) at pictures of Buddhist monks cutting off their fingers or immolating themselves in flame to protest our involvement in Southeastern Asia. I remember thinking that those monks were crazy (and I suppose that I still think that today).

But, unlike these monks were only harming themselves. It is uniquely Islam that promotes homicide as a religious duty.

Another example: When Operation Rescue started spawning members that were taking the lives of abortionists, the Catholic Church was the first to condemn the killings -- telling their radical adherents that if you murder, your soul will be condemned. I have yet to hear of a fatwa from any Imam condemning in unambivalent terms violent jihadists.

Anyone who has not done so, please check our Voltaire's post of 3:10. [Btw, I also second your follow-up post of 3:21.]

Sandman
Actually, I think you have it backwards. While I don’t agree with everything Lon has written, I find it well grounded. Your post on the other hand shows that not only do you lack the certitude of firmly held conviction, grounded in an appreciation of the culture, but you lack faith in the system and courage to see it through. Anyone who feels they have to neutralize an opposing political points of view poses a danger to our culture. They can’t possibly love what they want to destroy.

Well, you know
My family’s assimilation can be traced through 3 generation since arrival in this country. It wasn’t always voluntary and general societal acceptance took well into the second generation. My grandparents were always glad that they immigrated and loved this country, but they also took some hard feelings and bad memories to the grave as well. What I’m saying is I’m glad society is more accepting. It makes assimilation actually go smoother. And assimilation is inevitable. Our society and culture are dynamic. They change all who come in contact with them and are in turn changed by the ever mixing components.

jdw
Do I note a tad of misogyny in your post (I assume you are male)?

Oh, and I'd take the girl in a thong any day. God bless the self-assured, strong, independent and flirtatious American woman--with all her lovable neuroses and quirks. God was having a particularly good day when he created her.

DC, Lon, and similar ilk…
It is truly sad that you lack the certitude of firmly held conviction, grounded in an appreciation of the culture which has given you and the world so much. You would be pitiable if not for the danger you pose to the culture you so obviously despise and collude against. That is why you must be politically neutralized, so that your moral rot does not infect any more than it has already, and that is why the rest of us are here. To come together to analyze, discuss, and propose solutions to the cancer among us that you represent.

To DVangura, Voltaire, et al…

Bravo! Some of the most inspiring posts I have read in days. I am unashamed to say that I am rooting for my culture to transcend the barbarian cultures of the world and all the 5th columnists in this country who provide direct aid and comfort to them. Your excellent posts do yourself and me proud.

Dehumanization
Excellent article.

While devout muslims and others will try and shroud their motives for forcing women to dress in the hijab, the burka, and other funeral shroud-like clothes, the real reason is that the clothes dehumanize their women. If they're not human, they're not entitled to equal rights or equal treatment. If they're not equal, then all they can be is a servant to men. Feminist libs should note that those countries that enforce sharia and "traditional" dress are barbaric backwaters with the worst human rights records in the world.

American (or Western European)institutions should not encourage this behaviour. We should not allow this type of dress in our schools, on our public forms of transit, our stores or our public buildings. If a muslim woman wants to wear a shroud in a mosque, thats fine as a religious gesture, but in the public secular world she should adopt our culture if she wants to live here.

It's an extreme
solution to an extreme problem.

They deal with promiscuity and the inability of females to control their sexuality by attempting to remove the temptation from men. We deal with it by killing the offspring and pretending children don't need stable, two-parent households. Anything but demanding that females either act responsibly or abdicate their responsibility to men.

I laugh uproarously at the idea of these females being oppressed *by males* when wearing this dress, particularly in America. The staunchest defenders of morality in Victorian America and Britain were not middle-aged men but middle-aged WOMEN. People will believe anything, doubly so or female people. Frankly, it would disturb me less to see a woman walking down the street so clothed than in a thong bikini. At least I could presume the former had SOME form of self-respect, rather than offering up her body to every male walking by. Because that's what females are doing when they go out mostly naked as they do anymore. That any passing male is not welcome to partake of what they are displaying changes the offer not at all. Just typical female perversity and power-games.

Let's see... in Islamic society, males can beat women with impunity. In American society, females can beat males with impunity. I don't know if the Islamic societies portray males abusing females as positive role-models in their entertainment, but our society certainly does the reverse.

Yes, Islamic societies are too harsh on females. Our society, however, is FAR to accommodating.

Jaeger
"Who is the arbiter of what is backward or inappropriate?"

We all are. As we are the arbiters of our own collective culture, and we have not only the right, but the responsibility to safeguard it as well as keep it wholesome and fair. This may present the pith of our disagreement. I believe that there *is* such thing as a distinctly-American culture and values, which are silently agreed upon by the majority of our society. Yes, it's been watered down a lot in the past 30 years, but it's still with us.

And all the groups we cite to create analogies for the purpose of discussion--the Amish, Quakers, Catholics, Baptists, Mormons, Jews of all denominations--all share great portions of our culture. That's why we call our roots "Judeo-Christian." We could even say the same for the Buddhists--there is an inherent respect for self, human life and your fellow human beings that *is* the core of our culture. Or even for atheists, as long as their irreligious dogmas do not become self-destructive nihilism.

Islam, however, as anyone who has so much as read a paper a month for the past 30 years, is different. Not merely in the sense that it's an alternative presentation of similar or compatible values--it's starkly at odds with much that we cherish.

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor embrace the true faith, even if they are from among the People of the Book, until they pay tribute with willing submission, and feel themselves utterly subdued” (Koran 9:29)."

Islam is an aggressive religion of the sword, that preaches forcible submission not only of other religions (including those "of the book"--i.e. Judaism and Christianity) but also of a great part of their own.

It's a religion that condones falsehood, as long as it serves to promote Islam. It's a religion that squelches the right of the Individual. It's a religion that glorifies death (their words, not mine) and devalues life. It's a religion that teaches martyrdom and sanctifies the slaughtering of innocents, as long as it is done "for the book."

And, worse yet, it's a religion whose adherents and clerics practice what they preach. They do so from both ends of the spectrum: spectacularly on one end and trecherously and incrementally from the other.

Thus only a blind man or one feverishly infatuated with his own idealism can avoid seeing how all this is downright INCOMPATIBLE with (not merely different from) the values of our society. Difference is a value-neutral concept; incompatibility is always negative.

So, no, a girl wearing a burkha is not a big deal in itself. But it elicits, as a symbol of a culture so diametrically opposed to ours, a reaction of malaise. The same way that a group of men in white hoods or in brown shirts and riding boots would (and mind you, I'm not making a cheap, slippery-slope analogy--this is just an extreme example to illustrate a point). We are "visual" animals, and what we see is often a quick trigger-point to recall thoughts we harbor.

So to answer your original question, we, as the carriers of our culture, must be vigilant against aggressive doctrines which not only go against the majority of our values, but also (and especially) seek to undermine us. And as I said in my previous post, Islam, as it is currently practiced by a great number of its adherent is such a pernicious doctrine.

As such, I do not and shall not tolerate it.

A lot of people missing the point
While the columnist expresses no positive thoughts about Islamic dress standards, it seems to me her spear is really pointed at those "multi-culturists" in our midst (many of them posting on this thread) who blithely excuse the negative aspects of other cultures and are at the same time so quick to lambaste anything and everything about American culture. The American feminist movement is furious over the fact that some American women choose to stay at home and raise children, rather than pursue a career. They say we need to do everything we can to tell girls (in the schools) that family and home is the wrong choice, the dead-end choice, the unproductive choice. At the same time, the American feminist movement sees no problem with Islamic fundamentalists teaching young girls that they must spend their life imprisoned in a head-to-toe black garment, because that is "their choice" and it would be "intolerant" to criticize people from "another culture." Bottom line: Everything about another culture is acceptable, everything about our culture is despicable.

Health
Now, that it is proven, that vitamin D from the sun rays halves the incidence of some cancers, I am sure that caring muslim men will their women to expose their skin to the healing sun, and get rid of that burka, and other smelly sweat inducing clothing.

This article
and few posts on here prove a couple of things. This country has become uneducated if it cannot see what a burka, especially an all encompassing burka, represents. Without assimilation we open the door to that kind of oppression here. America is no longer the newest kid on the block. We have an identity and it stands for something. Another thing this article proves is that conservatives are classical liberals.

Voltaire
The problem remains the same, whether it is State intevention or Society's intervention. Who is the arbitor of what is "backward" or "inappropriate"? In both situations the larger body is passing judgement based on a certain value system on the attire of others.

You state "The clear self-policing of a moral and unified society is the point, not the legalistic dictates of a State bogged in a jungle of "plurimae leges." " The problem with our Society is that it was created so that we could be free to express whatever religious beliefs we desire (just as we are free to criticize those of another religion). We have made societal and legal exemptions for Quakers, Amish and other religions, why are Muslims the backwards people.

I believe we are "unified" in our diversity. (NO, not diversity as a program, just as fact.) I advocate the reasonable accommodation of other cultures as part of assimilation. Look at our language, we say it is English, but many, many of our phrasings and words come from different roots (Latin, Greek, Germanic, etc.).

As a moral society, I think we do have an obilgation to speak against those things that deteriorate our society, but I don't think a woman wearing a burka in NY needs to be preached to. I guess I just think that Ms Grabars article would have carried a lot more weight if she had looked at both extremes of womens attire; burka wearing on the one hand and micro-mini skirts on the other. I would argue that the mini skirt has done more to degrade women and our society than has the burka. (Now, the beatings and mutilations are a completely different story.)

Sept 12
I get your point. I guess the sight of a burka is no more offensive to me than a grown woman wearing a micro-mini skirt and a cleavage revealing top. In both cases (assuming they are women over 18), they have made choices to wear what they have on, but in neither case do I think it is affirming attire for a young lady.

If a woman were to ask my opinion, I give it, otherwise, I pretty much keep it to myself. I don't think that is wrong, I think that is polite. If a child is being physically abused and I witness it, I certainly intervene but I just don't see how religious based attire rises to this level in our society.

Jaeger
The original article nowhere advocated that the power of the State be used to prohibit a religious dress-code.

If I read the article correctly, the implied point was the author lamenting that our *culture* tolerates what she (and many of us) see as the manifestation of a rigid, backward and intolerant religion and way of life.

The clear self-policing of a moral and unified society is the point, not the legalistic dictates of a State bogged in a jungle of "plurimae leges."

Had she advocated the legal banning of burkhas, save for some special circumstances (identification), she wouldn't have received the applause she did from a majority of her conservative readership.

heatseeker
On the catholic point, I should note that I do not respect the second class citizen aspects of either Islam or Catholicism although I do think they get to make their own tenets without having to consider whether I respect them. My point was that at least when traditions are based in actual differences between the sexes they are more understandable.

While I think women should be equal, I am not about to deny that there are differences to make my point.

September12Republican
You are right that I did not comment on her remark that ""Given the messages of “coexistence,” and the dogma of multiculturalism that pervades our educational system, the little girl in the scarf will have nowhere to turn for an alternative to her seventh-century culture."

But that remark is rather bizarre. In a multicultural society like ours she will have many alternatives to her seventh-century culture to turn to. If there is an aspect of multicultural dogma that she might be objecting to it is that the school will not push on her the idea that one of the cultures is the best of the bunch. (Although in practice the degree to which school curricula are not pretty traditional western focuses is greatly exaggerated. In practice it means she may wind up reading "Things fall Apart" by Chinua Achebe along with the various Greek, British, American, and if the school is advanced, French writers that dominate the American school tradition).

But in what sense will a muslim student who attends an American public school not see alternative lifestyles? The muslim women in the traditional scarves and jeans are attending a college that would employ Ms Grabar. So presumably other traditions are being taught.

I did an interview once with Benedictine University and was told that 1/3 of the student body is now muslim. I have a feeling they are getting an introduction to Catholic tradition at Benedictine. I don't know how many of them wear the scarves.

Amen, Voltaire
Yep, gotta watch those Amish with their penchant for driving their explosive-laden buggies into tall buildings.
Muslim women are subjugated, mutilated, uneducated and often decapitated because Allah says they can be. And the Left says not a word. But let some dumb soldier take pictures of one of these animals standing on a stool with no clothes and watch the moral outrage pour forth. Give me a freakin' break.

We need to grow up
America is the Land of Opportunity for ALL.

That the complete villifying of multiculturalism is so commonplace in conservative propaganda is alarming and sickening.

There are many people in this country who live lives that your average conservative white-bread Protestant American wouldn't agree with. So GET...OVER....IT.

And please, please stop saying that American Muslims, or anyone else who doesn't live the life you agree with, "hates" America, or "refuses to assimilate." Those are fear-mongering, ignorant lies.

The woman the author saw at the lake is an American because this is where she has the most opportunity for a great life for her children. And she chooses to cover herself completely because that's what her God tells her to do. Aren't you conservatives all about living God's will? Wouldn't your first instinct be to sympathize with someone just trying to be right in God's eyes? ESPECIALLY if they're living in America, where we truly are free to do what we want? She could remove all of head coverings anytime she wants, just like any Christian could stop committing symbolic cannibilism every Sunday morning, but she, like you, is just trying to get to Heaven.

Stop judging, and learn to love your neighbor! No matter WHAT they choose to do. Otherwise stop claiming to be such a great Christian and admit what you really are- just a closed-minded person who's completely forgotten the Sermon on the Mount.

heatseeker
What she says is

"But as I remember the little girl in her head scarf in 2007 I see no such future for her. Indeed it is becoming more common to see college women wearing the traditional scarves, sometimes with blue jeans."

So the second sentence is given as evidence for the first. The little girl has no future. What is the evidence for this" That head scarfs are becoming more common even among women in blue jeans.

Note that the people above claiming that this is all about the burka and not head scarves are simply wrong. The warning here is that a little girl in a head scarf and long dress will grow up into a college student with traditional scarves, and maybe blue jeans.

My reaction is good it turns out that muslim immigrants are assimilating. They are being educated in our colleges and wearing our blue jeans. And they are keeping some of their own traditions as well. Good for them.

You are probably at a disadvantage for reading her article. You probably want her to be right and don't share her bigotry and so you miss it even when she hits you over the head with it as here.

What did you think was the point of her remark about the women in traditional scarves and blue jeans?

ctjaeger

Good comments. But I don't agree that Ms. Grabar is talking about STATE intervention. I believe that she's criticizing the politically correct aspect of American society that has become overly sensitive to offending "multi-cultural" beliefs.

Like you, I don't like the fact that Muslim girls are expected to wear head scarves, and some Muslim women are expected to wear burkas. no law against it, but are we supposed to be quietly and politely accepting of the practice?

Perhaps our American society ought to be just a bit more vocal about that judgment: e.g., "Excuse me, ma'am, but I couldn't hear you through your Burka."

Just a thought
Many people here are claiming that women "choose" to wear the hijab and burka. If it is so comfortable, why don't any Muslum men, who also have a choice of wearing or not wearing the identy erasing clothing, walk arround wearing them?

Personal views
The really cool thing about the USA is that we, as parents, are allowed to make choices for our children based on our own belief system. We aren't forced to dress them in any given way and we aren't forced to teach them to believe in any specific religion.

Muslim children wearing scarves or burkas at the direction of their parents is perfectly legal and acceptable in our society. Do I like that fact? No, but I certainly think it is their right. If there are beatings, mutilations and/or other things going on that affect the health and welfare of the children, then I do think there are laws on the books to prevent that.

It isn't the burka that I object to, it is the possible mistreatment of Muslim females that are not of an age where they can decide their fate for themselves. In the USA, these women have rights prohibiting violent physical acts on their persons. However, if such an act were to occur and nobody reports it to the proper authorities, no punishment will be doled out.

The arguments in some cases of Church and State separation revolve around healthcare provided to or denied to children of certain religious sects. If the religion prohibits modern medicine from intervening when a child is ill, when does the state have the right to step in and act in the childs "best interests"? Certainly a child of three did not choose to believe that hocus-pocus would cure it of any and all illnesses. If the child dies because of the parents belief system, have the parents basically committed murder?

If a Muslim female child of seven is beaten because her hair was showing from under her scarf, is that against US law? What right does a State that declares itself completely independent from religious beliefs have intervening in any situation where a religious belief affects a child? If you say that the State should intervene in this matter, you are displaying a moral attitude. You have then concluded that the State cannot be completely independent of religious issues and that it is the State's right to intervene in certain matters.

Now, the question becomes, into which matters may the State intervene? In our society, this is a very real and difficult question. I think that ultimately, this is the issue raised by Grabar's article.

Another example
How could I forget. We are not allowed to draw cartoons of the Prophet Mohamed.

If we do, we'll have death threats agains our lives, we'll incite riots throughout the Muslum world. Christians will be attacked and killed, embassies will be burned. AND all MSM US newpapers will be intimidated and cowardly refuse to publish any of the pictures that we draw.

After all, non-muslums must abide by thier laws.

A few examples
DS.
Unfortunately, I can not cite the references, and I don't feel like looking them up.

First, I said Muslums in the West, so this includes England, Australia and France where the Muslum communities are trying to force thier laws upon the greater society.

In the US, taxi cab driver refuse to take passengers with service animals, i.e. seeing-eye dogs, in violation of the Americans with Disabilyt Act, AND the left defends there actions.

Hey Gang!
I wish I had a site of my own to plug but I don’t. So I’ll tell you about this great site called Town Hall. Right now they have and active thread filled with conservatives proclaiming that women need to be more subservient and even advertising foreign wives because American culture ruins women.

Hey DS
There's one HUGE difference between Hasidic Jews, the Amish, etc, and Islamic Sharia laws. With the exception of Islam and it's Sharia laws, none of the rest of the religions mentioned are actively out to subjugate us, enslave us, or kill us.
Taproot

The priest is modeled after Jesus,
who is male. The Bible talks about Jesus as the bridegroom of the church, and the church as the bride. It sets up how we are to view the relationship between the Savior and the church. God is male. I'm sorry if some people are offended by that, but if you believe the Bible, then you have to believe that.

That Christianity places more authority on men than women is NOT a problem. It is part of our belief.

I would finish, but I've got to go now. I'll finish later.

Lon - Where does she say that?
You write:

"And the author is afraid this girl of 7 whose movement is only constricted by the long dress (but why is the author not bothered by other traditions that put girls in long dresses where they are not as free to run as boys?) will grow into a woman wearing a head scarf and jeans. But then Grabow ludicrously claims that this woman in jeans is rejecting western culture. Apparently she is wearing traditional arab jeans."

I went back a reread to make sure, but where does the author assert that the girl will grow up to wear jeans or that the women wearing head scarves are rejecting western culture?

The author's one reference to women in head scarves and jeans: "Indeed it is becoming more common to see college women wearing the traditional scarves, sometimes with blue jeans."

And the author is not afraid of the girl growing up to wear jeans, but to wear the burka itself: "Little do the multiculturalists care about the little girl who will become like her mother, walking in a prison of black cloth, isolated, without identity, not even able to feel the sun."

She doesn't say that the women wearing the jeans and head scarves aren't assimilating. She's says that she worried that the West is too afraid to tell them why we think that their customs are wrong.

Are their customs wrong? According to my beliefs, yes. And my customs are wrong according to someone else's. We should be able to discuss this freely. The author's afraid, legitimately, that we can't have this conversation with Muslims.

Lon

Thanks for your response. Contrary viewpoints are always welcome. [It appears that poor, sensitive "louispt" is going to miss out on the best political discussion site in the blogosphere.]

You're right, in the sense that neither I nor Ms. Grabar have any idea what is in store for her 7-yr.-old girl in the head scarf. Perhaps this little girl will grow up to be a perfectly happy, fully empowered American women -- free to make her own choices.

But I, at least, am convinced that there are MANY young Muslim girls in America who will not have that freedom. Ms. Grabar addresses that concern in her final two paragraphs:

"Given the messages of “coexistence,” and the dogma of multiculturalism that pervades our educational system, the little girl in the scarf will have nowhere to turn for an alternative to her seventh-century culture. She will not be exposed in a favorable way to the ideals of the West in the literature she reads, whether it be in her textbooks or library books. Her teachers will be so timid about defending the West that they will not be able to explicitly state that some practices of her culture, such as genital mutilation, are wrong. College freshmen are already indoctrinated."

"Little do the multiculturalists care about the little girl who will become like her mother, walking in a prison of black cloth, isolated, without identity, not even able to feel the sun. But they are the same ones, the ones who so detest their own culture, that they are blind to the barbarism in our midst. It may be too late for the woman swathed in black, but we need to reach her daughter."

This is America. We do not have (or want) government control over parental decisions.

But we, as a society, are well served by commentators such as Ms. Grabar who are not so intimidated by political correctness as to turn a blind eye to the injustice towards women inherent in the Islamic culture.

deb
I think the explanation with the male priest tends to also point to the fact that Peter was male and the other apostles. But it is hard to believe that the maleness is the essential feature of Jesus. Jesus was also ethnically jewish as were all the apostles, but there does not seem to be any push to make anyone who stands in for Jesus be ethnically jewish. To identify that as an essential feature of Jesus would seem to be to misunderstand his message.

But, of course, every religion of any age places more authority in men than women, because until recently every society has done so, and religions tend to reflect the societies in which they form. Obviously in religions that evolve with society, as women become equal to men in the society they become equal in the religion.
Catholicism has structures that slow down, although don't halt, this evolution process. (As noted in a different thread it took them 350 years to acknowledge they made a mistake with Gallileo, the wheels turn slowly but surely).

Islam has the same problems. And those problems are frustrating for liberals who both reject the inequalities but accept the freedom to choose religions. Liberals tend to have to balance these two principles that sometimes pull in opposite directions, and they come down on different sides.

As I have noted I do find the coverings that obscure a women's features discomfitting, although I am not ready to outlaw them on that ground. I don't see the problems of head scarfs so much. I might find the women more attractive if they did not cover their hair with the scarfs, but then I don't think they have an obligation to dress to maximize how attractive I find them.

And enjoy it we will...
and we can enjoy it because there aren't a bunch of disembodied heads littering up the place.

Lon - what!!!!!!!!??????????
You write:

"I was not unaware that catholics justify allowing their most influential positions to men only according to a belief that men and women have different roles. Muslims do that too. Frankly the muslim ones make more sense. The differences between male and female sexual drives is actually rooted in biology. The idea that women are not fit to be priests does not deserve that much respect."

You can't be serious. So there're biological differences between the sex drives of human males and females. Yeah - I want it much more often than my husband. And plenty of women would make that argument. You're trying to use much too large a brush to color your argument, and it doesn't work.

So in you're mind, the customs of the Catholic church don't deserve respect because they're not rooted in biology, but the customs of Islam do because they are. Wouldn't it stand to reason then that men should be the masters of the house (as liberals interpret the Bible to say) because they are physically superior to women? That custom would be rooted in biology, right? What about the Mormon history of taking more than one wife? Animals mate with mulitple partners all the time. That custom must be acceptable because it's rooted in biology.

See how ridiculous this argument is? We have to move beyond biology at some point to what makes us human.


Hatred
And three comments down from my original post I get my answer. So much for discussing what's actually an interesting article.

Enjoy your little hate filled community.

Mike

Where have you been?

This is the United States; it is against the law to wear a ski mask, in public, in every major city in Virginia, no matter the temperature. You can only wear one in the privacy of your own home.

Even if my religion required me to wear one in public, I would still go to jail. Why? Because I am not a female Muslim.

So much for the land of equality.

Dean
Not sure what to make of your comments. Was it your impression that in earlier generations we did more to tell parents how to raise their children? If we give people the choice to live as they want, why would you expect people to choose not to assimilate to a large degree as all past generations have done (with the exception of the Amish and some small jewish groups)?

Why would our accepting of different cultures lead to putting people in the stocks? It was the mix of different cultures that made such things outdated.

I actually think that most people who come to America will find American culture attractive, and that there is no need to force aspects of our culture on immigrants. Maybe the difference is that Conservatives don't have the same respect for our culture and think that it requires some kind of push to win out.

Speak for yourself, Mike
and while you're at it, YOU do the moving!

September12thRepublican
I have no problem with encouraging assimilation. Although America has done well by both assimilating newcomers and by expanding what counts as American.

The head to toe coverings are scary in the way they are dehumanizing. But the muslim head scarf is hardly a restriction on the freedom of movement. And the author is afraid this girl of 7 whose movement is only constricted by the long dress (but why is the author not bothered by other traditions that put girls in long dresses where they are not as free to run as boys?) will grow into a woman wearing a head scarf and jeans. But then Grabow ludicrously claims that this woman in jeans is rejecting western culture. Apparently she is wearing traditional arab jeans.

How is the woman in jeans and a head scarf (and note the head scarf does not block out the woman's facial features) represent a refusal to assimilate any more than the jewish boy with the yarmulke?

The American tradition is for groups to move to the US by initially moving into enclaves they feel comfortable. Their children then move into the suburbs, and their children think of themselves as no longer immigrants, but to the benefit of the country, they often maintain some of their old world traditions. Unfortunately it is also part of the tradition of the country for racists to call those early generations unamerican, to mock their traditions, to insist the assimilate faster than they do. This less noble part of our tradition deserves no respect.

Had the author limited her criticism to the garb that erases the woman completely she might have passed as someone with a legitimate point. But the fact that she does not distinguish between the women so obliterated, and the women who choose to wear a head scarf for modesty sake, or because they think their religion calls for it, reveals her to be more of a bigot than someone to be taken seriously.

If you think I am overstating things, explain how a college student in blue jeans and traditional scarves shows that a seven year old in a long dress and headscarf has no future. For that matter explain how a college student in blue jeans and traditional scarves has less freedom of movement than a women in a traditional western dress.

Ummm Mike
If we can dress how we want, why do we need to be behind high fences?

DS - then stop holding Christianity
responsible for all that you don't like about conservatism.

Liberals like to say that Christianity is bad because of arcane examples like slavery and the Crusades, neither of which the Bible commanded.
Or liberals condemn Christianity because Christians advocate restrictions on what can be broadcast on television or want obscenity to be confined to certain places and times. Show me where television is discussed in the Bible.

Stop holding Christianity responsible for what Christians do if you're not going to hold Islam responsible for what Muslims do.

Attempting to explain the male priest
Hello Lon,

The reason why Catholics only allow male priest is simple, although I will bungle the explaination.

Jesus was male. The priest stands in for Jesus when he blesses the Eucharist. that is why the priest must be male.

The forum on Catholic answers is a good place to ask such questions.

By the way, the Roman Catholic church has granted Doctor of the Church to several women. Doctor is a title that the church gives to those who have a high degree of learning and sanctity. St Theresa of Lisieux is an example.

This is the US
People can dress however they want. If you don't like it then move to a nudist camp and make sure the fences are high so we don't have to witness the horror.

Always interesting
... to see the various backgrounds and perspectives people come from.

On the one hand, I feel viscerally that it's going too far to do as France has done, and ban Muslim students' headscarves in school.

On the other hand, the burka, hijab, chador, etc -- the whole- or near-whole-body covering of the adult woman -- really does have an impact on citizenship. There have already been cases in the US of Muslim women claiming it as a religious right to not be visually identified in public (that is, inside a police station, to a female police officer), even by the authorities whom the people charter with the right of identifying everyone, on duly determined need.

I bet money that the woman Ms. Grabar saw doesn't have a driver's license. Can't very well get one if you won't disrobe to have your picture taken.

I've also read of a court case in the UK being dismissed because the prosecution couldn't figure out how to satisfy the court as to the identity of a female Muslim witness, who would not submit to visual identification, even to a female court officer.

The whole basis of our broadly inclusive culture is that individuals are not anonymous outside of insular family or tribal groups. Instead, we can be known, accepted, and dealt with on a responsible basis, across a variety of life's activities, by unique identifiers -- such as pictures of our faces -- that others have routine access to. These identifiers aren't just conveniences, they're vehicles of trust; our personal bona fides.

It's not silly speculation to be concerned that Muslim coverings for adult women really will collide with Western practices based on equality between the sexes. How to have the law treat everyone the same, and yet excuse robed Muslim women the responsibilities, as well as rights, of adult life, is a real problem.

Middle East Side Story
http://kilroyreport.townhall.com/g/2fefa275-299c-40d1-a936-351dd24f305f

Sharia, Sharia, Sharia, Sharia …
Sharia,
We just got a law named Sharia
And suddenly, mister
I'm allowed to kill my sister
You see.

Sharia,
You can’t bare your knee in Sharia
Lest you be led to slaughter
Like my husband did our daughter
Last week.

Sad to disagree with other conservatives
On this issue I have to disagree with my fellow conservatives. One of the great aspects of our American culture is that we are free to make so many different choices for ourselves. Paris Hilton can dress like a young woman with no self respect and a Muslim girl can certainly wear the traditional clothing from her land.


As long as I am not forced to wear Muslim clothing, I don't see anything wrong with the Muslim woman making her own clothing choices.


By the way, Muslim women are not the only religious women who cover thier hair. Orthodox Jewish women cover their hair as do some women in certain denominations of Christianity. Although neither Christian women nor Jewish women wear the restrictive clothing of some Muslim women.

Perhaps instead of debating over the clothing of Muslim women we should be asking ourselves why there are so many western women, statistically, who convert to fundamentalist forms of Islam.

The Roman
I was not unaware that catholics justify allowing their most influential positions to men only according to a belief that men and women have different roles. Muslims do that too. Frankly the muslim ones make more sense. The differences between male and female sexual drives is actually rooted in biology. The idea that women are not fit to be priests does not deserve that much respect.

I would like to see both pieces of inequality disappear. I am not about to demand, though, that people with beliefs different than my own act the way I want just because I want them to.

DS..HEY STUPID
Where have you been for the past few years. Reading your Move On.Org handbook?

It isn't just the burka, or the headscarf. It's about freedom for women. don't you know that the mutilation of women's genitals is going on right here in the United States? This is forced on little girls to insure that they can have no sexual pleasure. They are treated as property of men, and nothing more. Most of the women are so badly treated that they are afraid to break away. Some of these women who have become Muslim here will regret it, and then find out they can't get out of it, or they will be killed.

No consertatives aren't hate mongers. We just use simple logic. WE read about everything before making a judgement. You liberals listen to the likes of Rosie O', that only knows how to spew venom at her country,while defending the most vile people in the world.

Islam is a very dangerous religion, whether it's in the middle east, or in the United States. Theyare the religion of Death. When are you going to see this. As they are cutting your head off?

DS
"If you want to hold the religion respoonsible then be conisitant and provide proof from the Koran."

Wrong. If you want to hold a religion responsible, look for the customs it creates. As the 9th Circuit Judges teach us, written words can be forced, by consensus, to mean anything we want. You're out of your depth, my friend.

wildflowers
Have you actually heard stories of women having their arms cut off in Atlanta? I would think that would be big news, if true. But my guess is that it is not true. So I think it is more likely that the women the author saw in the Atlanta area who were wearing traditional muslim garb were doing so by choice.

DS

Sadly, you will probably be decades dead before your descendents have to deal with Sharia being the Law of the USA.

Pull your head out !

-
I'm new here.

Regarding the article, the poor girl is seven. Because she lives in our wonderful country, she'll be able to wear whatever the heck she wants in due time. I don't understand what's sad about that.

Unrelated, are the nasty comments and name calling standard fare here?

Depravity of Feminism’s Duality
For those trolls, Mathew and DS, take your spikes and find another arena where your self absorbed proclivities might be viewed as contributory. Defamation by insult does not advance your argument. It makes you appear childish.

DS: Last I looked, Amish and the Hassidic Jews don’t organize violent underground groups sponsored through their religious patriarchy.

Mathew: Appealing to the opposite extreme does not add merit to your assertion. It does expose your inability to appreciate subtlety. Ms Grabar’s illustration of herself as open to opportunity where her parents were not is precisely the point you missed. She did not go from an environment of patriarchal oppression to town tramp.

That citizens of this country are free to express their religious and cultural traditions is why immigrants kept coming for over two hundred years. It was what initiated our countries founding, inspired by the Declaration of Independence.

When Ms. Grabar contrasts what our society will and won’t tolerate, she is not appealing to legislatures, only to civic discourse and the depravity of feminism’s duality.

heatseeker
What im saying is that there are 1,4 billion muslims and just a small number wear Burkas.

If you want to hold the religion respoonsible then be conisitant and provide proof from the Koran.

Islamics: Woman's Word Less Than Man's
Under Islamic law it takes the testimony of two women to equal that of one man. Thus is is impossible for a man to be convicted of rape if the act doesn't have a witness. Either American feminists aren't aware of this fact, or they don't have a problem accepting it.

"The face of a woman ... "
The face of a woman is seen as a source of corruption for men.

This seems to me to be much less about protecting women than giving psychotic men a scapegoat for which he can blame his weaknesses. To pay for exposing those weaknesses, women are subject to beatings, public execution by firing squad, being stoned to death, stabbed, slashed, gang raped. Somewhere in the world it happens virtually every day. Often under "court" order.

Of course, it's just a part of their culture so who are we to judge. After all, the Catholics don't allow woman priests and that the same thing... except for all that killing part.

DVangura
Show me where Mulims in America are forcing others to follow their religion??

Its the exact opposite that i see here.It's the author who is not happy with mulims dress code. The muslims are not advocating the hijab to other people. For Gods sake its their children we are talking about here.

The intolerance is coming from the neoncons.

Why dont you talk about the Evanjelical christains who are forcing their brand of christianity everywhere.

DS - let me get this straight
You're going to argue that we shouldn't hold the entire religion of Islam responsible for the Muslims who interpret the Koran's proscription to dress modestly as instruction to be covered from head to toe?

Should we then hold the entire Christian religion responsible for those who interpret the Bible's proscription that women submit to their husbands as permission for husbands to rule their homes with an iron fist (which is a popular liberal myth)?

RichV
I have wondered when North American men would begin to rebel against the prevailing cultural assumption that no male is capable in any way of restraining his "urges" and that it is simply useless for society to even suggest that he do so. To my mind this has always been a degrading and vulgar way to view boys and men.

Of course, the bigotry of low expectations is something some of them find attractive; if the court assumes that rape is beyond the control of a male, he has no responsibility for committing rape. If he is genetically programmed to attack anything female he sees, well then why should he be punished for molesting his five year old daughter? That's the way God made him! And it's up to females to lock themselves inside burqas or rooms with the windows blacked out, and if necessary to die there unmissed and unmourned, so that they will not become an occasion for the unbridled and uncontrollable lust of every male in town to be unleashed upon them wholesale and retail.

If I were a man in today's culture I would find that viewpoint disgusting. Why don't more men protest against it?

Yes, just respecting their freedom
The Golden Needle Sewing School was an underground school for women in Herat, Afghanistan, during the rule of the Taliban.

Because women were not allowed to be educated under the strict interpretation of Islamic law introduced by the Taliban, [1] women writers belonging to the Herat Literary Circle set up a group called the Sewing Circles of Herat, which founded the Golden Needle Sewing School in or around 1996. [2][3]

Women would visit the school three times a week, ostensibly to sew, but would instead hear lectures given by professors of literature from Herat University. Children playing outside would alert the group if the religious police approached, giving them time to hide their books and pick up sewing equipment.

Christina Lamb, author of The Sewing Circles of Herat, told Radio Free Europe:

They would arrive in their burqas with their bags full of material and scissors. Underneath they would have notebooks and pens. And once they got inside, instead of learning to sew, they would actually be talking about Shakespeare and James Joyce, Dostoyevsky and their own writing. It was a tremendous risk they were taking. If they had been caught, they would have been, at the very least, imprisoned and tortured. Maybe hanged. [2]

Valiant and Voltaire
BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for taking this argument to the next level. I always get bogged down in their ridiculous points and forget that we can elevate our discussion to things that really matter.

ValiantForTruth writes:
Islam DOESNT TEACH that women should cover from head to toe. You will NOT find a single verse in the koran that says that. The koran teaches for women to dress modestly. This is open to a wide range of interpretations. some muslims feel that a head scarf with jeans would be sufficent, others feel that women should not expose her curves, and other go to the extreme and wear burkas.

I know British and American white women who chose to wear burkas. If thats what they want to do then more power to them. I dont feel threatened by that.

Lon misses the point...
Lon, try re-reading the article, especially about how the author ISN'T from America, but found joy and happiness in her assimilation to western culture. Her point is that now we don't expect those who come from another land to assimilate, but instead to bring their dogma with them to force down the throats of their children and thereby expecting so called "tolerance" from those around them who are free.

Heck Lon, by your reckoning, we'd still be using the stocks on wrong-doers and wearing puritan clothing. Good plan.

DS Writes:
"Townhall is a virtual TERRORIST training camp for neocons. whoever wants to incite violence, or stir up negative public opinion against muslims comes to this forum of doom and terror. [...]"

I hear:

"Meow, meow, meow, meow, NEOCON, meow, meow, meow, meow, HATE, meow, meow, meow, meow INCITE VIOLENCE, meow, meow, meow, JEWS, meow, meow..."

Matthew:

You must have lived with your kopf up your po in the last 30 years. Speech codes, thought codes, "tolerance" at the point of a gavel, systematic lifestyle indoctrination, which lightbulbs we should use, which cars we should drive are ALL leftie brainchildren.

Besides "Who are we to judge?," as someone aptly said, is a question, not an answer. And the answer is: we are the carriers of a culture that has created the freest nation on Earth, the nation to whose shores millions flock to seek a better life--as we are discussing in other threads regarding immigration.

I too cringe when I see burkhas and veils--as a rejection of the culture to which Muslims are FREELY emigrating. And no, tolerating Muslim intolerance and their 7th Century death-cult of a religion is not a sign of American-style Enlightenment--it's a sign of nihilism, cultural masochism and Western self-flagellation.

I have no tolerance for Islam, until I see that religion reformed and its many sharp edges filed down to something that can function in a civilized society like MINE. So sue me.

Bravo, Mary Grabar.

Islam…a religion of outward observances

Why is it that Islam teaches that its women cover themselves from head to toe? We submit that it is consistent with a religion concerned with the outward and ignorant of their inward corruption, not unlike the perversion of the Old Testament religion practiced by the Pharisees during the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ.

The accusation that Jesus made against the Pharisees was that they were fastidious about the outward; not realizing that out of the heart comes murder and adultery. Like white washed tombs, they were full of dead men’s bones and all corruption. They thought that outward observances of the Law earned them favor with God. Jeremiah told them to circumcise their heart and promised a New Covenant where the Law would be written on the heart. They could not see that the Law was to lead them to the gospel.

Even so for Islam, rather than dealing with the spiritual aspect of sin, they prefer the physical approach. The lust of men is dealt with by covering up beauty. They are unable to admire the beauty of a beautiful woman. Lust is not the fault of what God has created, but of men who desire what is not rightfully theirs out of discontent with the provision of God.

Christianity in its Old Testament revelation and the New Testament fulfillment is primarily a religion of the heart. Out of the heart flow the issues of life. The apostle expounds the doctrine…


‘Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.’ [Colossians 2:20]



DS - well, you sound reeeeeally informed
Yes, we are talking about burkas, not head scarves. Did you actually read the article we're discussing?

Also - so you hear there's a lot of "incests" going on in the Amish community? Care to back that up with anything resembling a fact? Or are you just going to spew hatred and rumor for kicks?

Okay, you got me. One crazed Orthodox Jew did something horrible. Put a mark in the Judaism column. Now count the marks in the Islam column. Do they really even compare?

As for the women who convert: That's the point!!!!!!!! They made the choice to do so. And they should be able to convert to something else should they choose without fear of physical punishment or death.

Mixed Message
I was (amused, bemused) yesterday to see a young woman getting out of a car. She wore a Muslim headscarf carefully arranged to cover her hair. She also wore Western clothing: a low-cut blouse and a pair of jeans that fit so close you could see the details of her bottom.

Set your watch by it: while immigrants may not assimilate, their children do. Regarding Muslim girls, this should be interesting to watch.

Wait a minute
We are NOT talking about BURKAs here, we are talking about scarves.

Denying a woman's idendity because of a scarf?? lol

These moms make their children wear modest clothing because this is part of their identity.

What about the women who were born into a different religion, converted to islam and now wear the hijab. shouldnt you tell them about their lost identity??

pink books
Could the books in pink bindings be Louisa May Alcott's series? (Little Women, Jo's Boys, Little Men) Or perhaps just Little Women. It's sometimes broken down to volumes.

As for the main point of the article, no, the women have no choice. But that is the point of theocracy - God is right and therefore disobedience is blasphemy which is, of course, a capital offense.

The arguments in favor of it are alarmingly similar to pro-slavery arguments.

Wake up America!!!
The entire culture described in this column is anti American. They do not want to be part of America. Many want to kill Christians and force Americans to live like them. Their culture is demanding of us giving in to their desires like foot baths and special previlages on airplanes. Immigrants from other countries want to live like the rest of the Americans. So why doesn't their culture adapt also? With our wonderful role models like Nancy P. bending over backwards to be part of their culture, what is America becoming? I say the Immigration Department is falling down on their job. We need to drastically reduce immigration from the Middle East.

RR

heatseeker
Thats not true. Honor killing is not part of the religion is a tradition that occur in India and other part of the world as well. Have you heard of any honor killing in the US??

what about the orthodox jew who killed his own children to prevent them from becoming christians after divorcing his catholic wife??

As for the Amish community I hear a lots of incests going on.

and to this I say
"there but for the grace of God go I"

Wait a minute
DS and Matthew:

You miss the point.

There is a difference between telling a kid what to eat and wear and denying a woman her identity because you as a man can't control your sexual urges and thoughts.

These kids may make their parents unhappy and be kicked out of the community when they reject their religious practices, but when was the last time you heard of an Amish dad or a Hassidic Jew older brother committing an honor killing because the daughter or sister showed too much ankle or talked to a man?

Grabar,more hate, ignorance and paranoia

Townhall is a virtual TERRORIST training camp for neocons. whoever wants to incite violence, or stir up negative public opinion against muslims comes to this forum of doom and terror.

The authors credibilty is zero for we have similar communities but she chose out of discrimination not to mention them. The author obviously doesnt care about the little children, but her fear, paranoia, ignorance and hate took center stage in her article.

The Amish and the Hassidic jews are much bigger communities and force their kids to wear certain clothing and follow strict diets.

What about the Amish kids who are forced stay away from anything electronic?? they are forced NOT to use electronic games, watch TV, computers or anything related to technology?? and the girls wear similar clothing to the muslims except maybe for the scarf.

Shouldnt the author feel sorry for these kids who live like cavemen??

Hasn't she looked at the Hassidic jews kids??


The author, like ALL neocons, obviously couldnt care less about the little girls. Her big concern is about American muslims living in the US whether they wear scarfs or jeans, or bikinis. As long as you are muslim we will TERRORIZE you.


Can I play Devil's advocate?
I'm no feminist, and I would like to see more women throw off their burkas and embrace freedom. I understand why they don't - likley either they think they are being obedient to the commandments of their religion or their husbands will beat them.

However, isn't telling these women that we need to save them and their daughters from the oppressiveness of their religious beliefs quite similar to the feminists of the 70s telling the girls of that decade to burn their bras and embrace "free sex"?

I have a real problem with this apparent contradiction. It's okay to embrace our own culture, which promotes the degradation and objectification of women, but it's not okay for others to abide by the tenets of their culture, which are dictated by a commitment to a religion?

Don't get me wrong - Muslim women should be able to make the choice to wear the burka without fear of anything more than being ostracized. But why do we not condemn the Amish or the Mennonites or the Mormans for their tightly held religious beliefs and the practices that stem from them?

At what point does it become acceptable to believe what you believe and to live accordingly, regardless of how the world views you?

Islam irreconcilable
Dress is something so intrinsic with culture. To dress differently from the prevailing home culture, meaning in this example the US culture, is not just an expression of separation from that culture but an expression of contempt.

This is just another example of the irreconcilability of Islam with the West.

In America - the slippery slope
I really do believe this is an important article! This is a slippery slope in America. You can say " What does it matter that these women are wearing this attire - it is their culture." Before long we will be required to honor Sharia law - as they are now doing in England.
I am not advocating Government intervention in this area - merely wishing that more would speak out on this. These women may be content with their lot in life - but they shouldn't be. Being kept like a piece of property - to do with as the male wishes - is not something I would want to try to explain to my little girl. How would you explain the world's tolerance of this culture? I am thankful that I do not have a daughter that would see this and ask for my explanation. I would have none!

Progressive Muslims

To those women who wear head scarves with blue jeans, I say this; A Muslim of Faith will strike you in the face for being too liberal, or for mocking His religion. Either wear the full burhka, or do not pretend to be Muslim.

Is that the kind of freedom you expect you will get from Mohammedans? Won't happen? Doubt it?You are a non-citizen under Sharia, prepare yourself to be beaten.


Dvangura

Excellent post! I was not at all familiar with General Napier and his handling of widow-burning in India. Thanks for the enlightening contribution.

Which Feminists?
" I will never understand the feminist defense of this obliteration of a woman’s identity. "

Which feminists have been defending this sort of dress?

Cultural Confidence
Thanks to the leftist who permeate our society and their dogma of "multiculturalism” we are loosing our cultural confidence. Western values and culture have brought the greatest freedoms, values and wealth to the world. Confidence in our culture can destroy barbarism. British imperialism brought about such a change regarding the practice of Sati, which is the burning alive of widows upon the funeral pyre of their dead husbands.
General Napier, a British commander in India, confident in Western values told the local authorities,

You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.

In less than a generation, the practice was eliminated from the dominate culture of India.

We need to condemn the practice of reducing woman to a status less than chattel. These women are psychologically abused. Like many abused women, they need help to escape their enslavement. This will never happen while the intellectual “Elites” degrade and deride Western, i.e. Judeo-Christian, morals and values.

Insulting to men
The "full-coverage option" insults me. It says that I, a man, am incapable of looking at a woman WITHOUT considering her a sex object.

That denigrates my dignity as a child of God, my inherent freedom to choose to be sinful or righteous, and treats me the same as a "sex offender."

Much less how it tries to shame God who made us all in his image, male and female, by implying that God made someone in his image who is not to be seen.

Revolting mentality.

Lon and LBG

If you're unimpressed with the burka and head scarf illustration offered by Ms. Grabar, try reading Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I'm no wilting lilly, but I had to put that book down several times just to recover myself emotionally from the brutality it depicts.

I'm a second-generation American. Whenever I look at old family pictures and recall stories from my grandparents of their life in Turkish Armenia, I say a prayer of thanks to God that I was blessed that my grandparents were able to immigrate (legally) to America.

No, it was not Ms. Grabar's place to physically remove the burka from that poor women and lecture her about proper parenting of her young daughter. [That kind of in-your-face approach only appears to be acceptable from those pressing a gay rights agenda on the rest of us (sarcasm intended, for those of you reading this quickly)].

But it certainly is appropriate for any caring American to encourage assimilation into our culture. How so? On a person-to-person basis.

When my dry cleaner chose to convert to Islam, I had no probelm with it. When he started selling Farrakhan's publication over the counter, I was uncomfortable but decided that I wasn't required to buy it. But when he began displaying in his store racist posters calling for the creation of an all-black nation carved out of America, I told him that the posters needed to come down or I would find another dry cleaner. The posters did not come down. I left. I know that I was not alone, because 6 months later his formerly thriving business closed.

Lon and LBG: You do no one any favors by excusing harmful conduct from others out of respect for their "culture", or by suggesting that we as Americans are not qualified to speak up because we've not been perfect in the past.

Very good article, Ms. Grabar.

Feeling the sun
My sentiments exactly. I feel nothing but sadness when I see these shrouded women and their doomed daughters.

I cannot imagine being cut off from the sensory world. Not feeling the sun on my skin, or the wind in my hair. Not knowing the simple and pure joy of wearing shorts and tank tops, shedding the oppressive layers of winter clothing.

Western feminists are ridiculous. For me their is no greater threat to women in this world than this barbaric treatment of women, that today we call fundamental Islam.

"Loonie" Lon writes....
"the Catholic church does not allow women to become priests,..... Get it straight why women cannot be priests in the Catholic Church. It's because they do not fit the role that a man does for standing on the altar, "in Persona Christe" and, as Christ did, they cannot confect the Eucharist. Jesus is male and the Church is the bride of Christ. To have a women standing in the place of Christ would smack as a bit of lesbianism, now, wouldn't it? And remember, Jesus set this up not the Church. They are only being loyal to the Master.

Just as women cannot impregnate themselves, because God did not give them that role in life, they cannot be men on the altar fulfilling the role of the Man. Women have as their role model, the Mother of the Man, our Blessed Mother Mary.

Maybe if God had chosen to come on earth as Jessica things might be different. But, God did it the way God chose to do it!

Lon, you need to get a life and get the Faith. Quit fueling these silly fires!!

Mary, Not Contrary
My friend Mary Grabar once called me her "biggest fan." She may be right, but I think the number of fans she has in America would surprise her. On my own site (click on name above) I keep "threatening" to an entire column on Mary, and I will soon. I do a column everyday (!!!), because I want to emulate Mary's high productivity. She's done several chapters of a very impressive novel, and of course she's produced a steady stream of articles for TH, Intellectual Conservative, and The American Spectator. Thirty years ago (!!!!) I wrote regularly for The American Spectator (in those days called "The Alternative"). I have spent most of my life either being a young conservative writer, or, when I got a little older, encouraging others of the breed. I regard Mary's potential as similar to that of Nicole Krauss, the young super-novelist from Brooklyn. Mary and I both grew up in Rochester, New York, an area (the Monroe County part) known for its adherence to the Christian faith -- and to Republicanism (the former being more important than the latter to say the least). On my aforementioned blog there's been a discussion lately about which writers are the REAL conservatives (Novak isn't, Buchanan isn't) and which are. Mary doesn't write about politics much, but she talks about the social fabric and what we can do to keep it from being torn apart. That's a truly conservative act. Later today, I'll be posting a piece on Heather Wilson of New Mexico. I don't know if Heather is a good writer, but she's good at everything else. In a way, the fate of our Republic rests with people like Mary and Heather. Awhile back, I wrote of Mary and the "liquefaction of her prose." (I stole the line from poet Robert Herrick, who wrote about "Sweet Julia, the liquefaction of her clothes.") Mary has a Ph.D. in English from the University of Georgia, where I taught many years ago, so she recognized my stealing from Herrick. She seems to recognize many things.

steve maloney
ambridge, pa

Come visit me. If you can't make it to Ambridge, join the crowd & try the blog!

A Woman??????
"..a woman completely swathed in black with only slits for her eyes." And you can tell it was a woman? How?

Community standards
OK, we all agree that head to toe covering is a bit much, but it doesn't make the practioners evil incarnate. She said she wanted to wear it, who are you to deny her that freedom? Remember that Joan of Arc was burned at the stake partly for the unforgivable sin of wearing pants and armor.

You should pity the little Jewish orthodox boys who are forced to wear long pants and long sleeved white shirts and a hat on the hottest summer day and the little girls who are cannot play at all.


"Shroud" - the perfect word
for the death of freedom and equality. I suppose I should feel sorry for those women who don the uniform of slavery and oppression. But I just get angry at them and have to resist the urge to rip off the damned shroud and shake them into consciousness!

And shouldn't there be a law against going out in public dressed in a manner that prevents the police / public from seeing your identity? There was that man in England, remember, who donned the shroud to try to escape the police.

And, by the way, Lon, you are making (what should be to you anyway embarassingly) foolish comments here.


The hijab as a manifestation of autism
In my opinion, women who wear the hijab or, worse yet, the burka, are manifesting a symptom of autism...a retreat from the world, much as a stork sticks its head in the sand when scared. How many people have you met with low self-esteem who hide behind thick glasses or otherwise fail to meet your gaze? There is an expression that seems applicable to me: Don't hide your light under a bushel basket.

The overwhelming number of Muslim men are obsessed with the sexual purity of women. The hijab and burka are a means of keeping women's self-esteem low and, thus, women under the control of men. Throw it off, women, and face the world squarely in the eye, as equals!

Nit Picking
While I agree with what Ms Grabar has written in her column, I was distracted twice during my reading by her use of two misspelled literary references, both of which I had to look up to ascertain their meanings.

Simone de Beauvoir (was: Simone de Bevoir)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simone_de_Beauvoir
http://www.bartleby.com/61/30/B0143000.html

de rigueur (was: de rigor)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_rigueur
http://www.bartleby.com/61/5/D0150500.html

I suppose that with a PhD in English, Ms Grabar has the right to use phrases which might go over the head of the average Townhall reader, but if she's going to do so, she should at least spell them right. Unless she's spelling them wrong on purpose to make fun of the literary elite, in which case, I'm sorry I didn't catch a clue.


What??!!!?????
Are you trying to tell us, Lon, that these women really choose to live like this? Am I to understand that women given every opportunity of their choosing except being able to become Catholic priests is equally as oppressive as women being forced to cover themselves completely or be physically abused? Really, these women choose to have their hands cut off for wearing nail polish etc? I wonder how many of them would "choose" this life style if they were really given a choice.

In answer to the author, there is one reason and one reason only why women's groups like NOW remain silent. Fear. They fear the so called religion of peace. I guess they value their head staying attached more than speaking out against real oppression of women.

dreadful
Why would someone who wanted to be taken seriously fail to distinguish between wearing a headscarf over jeans with wearing a head to toe covering like one sees in Afghanistan? I suppose someone whose hatered of people who are different is so great that they can't make such an obvious distinction also would miss the difference between supporting the idea that women have choices even when they do not make the choices one would like.

But certainly those goat eating muslims are a threat to us true Americans who refuse to eat anything but American food.

I personally wish that Islam did not have a secondary role for women. Unfortunately that has been a feature of most faiths. The Orthodox jews separate men and women for prayer. The Catholic church does not allow women to become priests, and some christian groups think men should be masters of the family. I hope we will eventually outgrow such nonsense in all religions. I would even agree that muslims have the most overt representations of that difference. But it is hard to take seriously an attack on this facet of islam that does not differentiate between the different forms that it takes, and shows such ignorance of how mass immigration has worked in this country.

Does she really think that there is a major group that has not kept many of its traditions, good or bad, when they came to this country? I remember in Chicago during the Yugoslav there were dozens of hate crimes between Croats and Serb immigrants. And bands refused to play mixed weddings.

If one wants to guarantee that muslims do not join the melting pot in this country one could hardly do better than to hand them the above article to make them think that melting into a bigoted society isn't all it is cracked up to be.

Makes you want to shake/smack a liberal
doesn't it? They never seem to have an unkind word to say about how Islam 'treats' its women. Neither does NOW.
They gather all sorts of outrage against oh, ANYTHING remotely Republican or Conservative - but against these things, not a peep.
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