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Thursday, August 16, 2007
Marvin Olasky :: Townhall.com Columnist
The August Drumbeat
by Marvin Olasky
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Should biblical churches host gay-glorifying funerals? Should evangelical politics move leftward? Many news organs give us one answer: Yes!

The lead of an Aug. 11 Associated Press story seemed to expose a clear case of homophobia: "A megachurch canceled a memorial service for a Navy veteran 24 hours before it was to start because the deceased was gay."

The story stated that officials at High Point Church in Arlington, Texas, offered to host the service for a gay janitor who wasn't a church member but had worked there -- only to say no when his obituary listed a life partner. The deceased's sister said, "It's a slap in the face."

The AP story did quote the church's pastor's concern that the service would promote the gay lifestyle. That quotation was a throwback to the old AP style of trying to present both sides equally, but the new AP is politically correct, and the overall slant of this story was clear: Christians lack compassion.

A Dallas Morning News story was more nuanced. It noted that the issue was not the deceased's unrepentant homosexuality but that "his friends and family wanted that part of his life to be a significant part of the service."

The church offered to pay for a different venue, and sent over food and a multimedia presentation of photos of the janitor's life, minus the gay-glorifying images his friends and family had wanted to include. The Dallas Morning News story ended with a querying note about whether there's any way to prevent such disputes.

Is there a way to decrease the likelihood of such friction? It's clear that churches need to work out guidelines ahead of time, with the most important being that a church's pastor or someone he designates needs to officiate at a funeral service in the church: Those who want to use church facilities need to agree to abide by his decisions as to what will be part of the service. The base line should be to love all sinners but never to proselytize for sin.

It's important to make these guidelines across-the-board rather than homosexuality-specific: Churches should not promote gay activities in the same way they should not promote other actions that the Bible says are wrong. That won't satisfy gays, but this and similar decisions will help to deal with a recent riptide of Christian Left books and articles designed to sweep evangelicals out to sea politically.

Those books and articles have a political opportunity because many social conservatives, including some evangelicals, have messed up. Some have largely ignored the poor. Others have made partisanship more important than principle or let political messages take precedence over the gospel. Overall, many have emphasized gay marriage and downplayed other issues.

Don't get me wrong: All Scripture, including that which condemns homosexuality, is vital. But if we dwell on that and either ignore or touch only haphazardly on evils such as abortion, sexual trafficking, inhumane prisons and attacks on human rights and religious freedom in many countries (North Korea is one of the most grievous examples), we're putting our own agendas over God's.

Many younger Christians have grown tired of some evangelical interest groups harping on gay issues and skipping other concerns. Many complain about groups that capitalize on hot-button issues and demonize opponents -- largely to raise capital, they think.

The left's criticism of an overemphasis on homosexuality is correct. Its prescription of what to do next is wrong. The Christian Right has made plenty of mistakes, but it's also a mistake to embrace books of the Christian Left that often recycle failed liberal ideas.

And it's also false compassion to honor what the Bible says are self-destructive tendencies (aka "sin"). We all sin to some extent, and even if some have genetic tendencies toward homosexuality, adultery or alcoholism, biology is not inevitably destiny. Some are on the fence, and none of us should help to push them over.

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About The Author
Marvin Olasky is editor-in-chief of the national news magazine World, provost of The King's College, and a professor of journalism at The University of Texas at Austin. For additional commentary by Marvin Olasky, visit www.worldmag.com.
 
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nice balanced article on
the need for the church to show compassion wothout comproming on morality.

Olansky is right about the widespread perception (which I share) that there way too many christian "groups that capitalize on hot-button issues and demonize opponents -- largely to raise capital,"we need to stop categorizing people who are not conservative republicans as either "illogical", "fools", "traitors","Godless", "backsliders" , apostates, ad nauseum.

Thats not fromn the Spirit f Christ or his gospel, and as such is doomed to failure. "Unless the Lord builds the house they labor in vain who build it."

We will never create a Godly society by simply electing the right candidates to public office, and appointing conservative judges. Such naive simplistic thinking leaves God out of the picture, or reduces him to a minor player.

After all, some of the most ungodly people in the world are and were politically conservative. The late Ayn Rand, a bitter, atheist and crass materialist immediately comes to mind.

We build a good society by declaring the righteouness of Christ-not our own- and sharing the gospel with others-not by ridiculing people who dont share our political views.

Oh, Come on...
"Should biblical churches host gay-glorifying funerals? Should evangelical politics move leftward?"

This is old news. Look, it is simple... to get along with the left, all you have to do is abandon your position and crumble before them.

Same old saw they always use...Whenever they say: "We need a uniter, not a divider" they are demanding that their political opposition cave in.

They don't ever give an inch, and why should they? Every concession we make is a win for them and a loss for us. The inevitable result is that we become them. It is a lose lose for our side, since their whole objective is to destroy our ideology(the very thing that made America the greatest country on the planet).

No negotiation. No concessions. We are right, and THEY must change. The right suffers from a serious lack of will to win. You don't win anything by concession.

In the 1990s
I belonged to one of the largest Anglican churches in America, chiefly because I wanted to sing in the performance choir. This church practiced Don't Ask Don't Tell, and had many gay members who were prosperous business people that kept their sex lives out of the sanctuary and everyone was happy to welcome them. Then came AIDS.

This story is too long for a post, so I have continued it on my blog.

But here I will print the conclusion: that if there was a specific marker for the adulterer, the blasphemer, the neglecter of family and the purveyor of toxic envy, similar to AIDS, perhaps the rest of the congregation would wake up, too.

I saw
a pretty good posting on TH a few days ago where the substance of the comment was something like...

"you guys don't want to get along...you act as outrageously as you can expressly to call attention to yourselves..."

something like that.

Vandamme, I have read several comments by you similar to the one above: "Gays coming out have also forced you to show your bigoted hand: hand that is more prone to hit than help...Does it make you feel all warm and tingly inside to kick even dead gays?"

Why don't you ease back? You won't convince anyone with your "poor me poor abused me" rhetoric. People are going to see that as whiny and pathetic.

Realize that there are some folks, I'd wager a TON of folks, that will never accept homosexuality, and they just may feel they have some pretty good reasons for their attitude.

Realize also that honestly, you folks bring a lot of grief on yourselves.

You can't force people to like you or even accept you. Try, and they will surely hate you more so.

Tolerance
Tolerance is putting up with something unpleasant, like Uncle Herbs flatulence at Thanksgiving dinner. The gay community has acheived tolerance for their lifestyle by and large. Now if they would only respond in kind and quit insisting that we praise the aroma.

I for one am tired of tolerating the intolerant.


Does anyone really care about Gays?
Gays are the offspring of Heterosexuals who love them.

The Bible "at this point in time" should not be the source of condemnation.

Common Sense and reason show

Gays are dying 25 years younger than heterosexuals. Does anyone care?

Gays are spreading communicable diseases like the wild fire pandemic of AIDS.

Do we need the Bible for these facts?

If two people of the same sex can fall in love why not three, four,....tribes etc =polygamy that is really slavery.

Another fact is no Gay Gene has been discovered.

If you care why not get these kids out of the "promiscuous sex cult" that diets on porn, that is resulting in the sexual abuse of our children shown on TV every day.

Gays are actively promoting sex at any time at any place with anyone. Sex in public restrooms in Richmond Virginia is advocated by the Gay community. These kids need help.

Gay is a MAJOR HEALTH PROBLEM It is not a right to destroy the health of the community and themselves.

Do you really care about your loved one caught in this lifestyle?

Not the whole story
Churches have a responsibility to stand firm on what they belive is right. I'd bet that the response from High Point Church would have been the same if the deceased was involved in an obvious extra-marital affair that his family wanted glorified during the service, or substitute any other sin.

Those who criticize the church's response are missing the facts:
- This man was not a member of the church, the only connection was through his brother, the employee (janitor) who had been asking the church for prayer
- Because of this connection, the church offered to host the memorial service free of charge
- The church decided they could not host the funeral only after seeing photos the family wanted included in the service which blatantly celebrated the homosexual lifestyle, learning the family intended an "open mic" section for comments, and being informed that a member of an openly gay choir would be "officiating" the service
- After coming to this decision, the church offered to pay for another venue for the family (the offer was rejected)
- The church did provide food for 100 family and friends at the memorial service, and also compiled a slideshow presentation of the photos (minus the offensive ones) ALL free of charge
- Staff and representatives from the church attended the memorial service and have remained in contact with the family

Does this seem like a "hate-filled, bigoted" group of people? No - rather a group who maintained their integrity by not compromising their beliefs while providing as much love, support and compassion as they were able.

To read the church's statement, click here:
http://www.afa.net/hopechurchdallas.asp

Scottie
and annthemn you summed it nicely.

Vandamm
First, I want to say that it's clear you've had some problems with people who claim to be Christians in the past. I apologize on their behalf - those who are really believers should always be balancing the need to stand firm on what the Bible says and love (unconditionally) those around us. In real life terms, that means doing everything possible to support and love the people, without supporting or approving of behavior that we believe is wrong.

From what I know of the situation in Texas, it seems the church did that to the best of their abilities. It wasn't quite so dramatic as you suggest - no body kicked out; this was a memorial service, not a funeral - and you can't argue with the fact that the church did provide food for all 100 of the memorial service attendees and offer to pay for another location. If, as you wished for me, I were to be in a situation where I was grieving a loved one, I would be absolutely astonished to have an "opposing" group (such as the gay community, for example?) offering anything for the memorial, let alone providing food, a slide show, and the offer of a location free of charge to me and my family.

Christians are never perfect, and this situation could absolutely have been handled better, but you're seeing hate and purposeful hurt where there was none.



Christians being Christians
The Texas church showed it is authentically Christian. Christians know the absolute truth and have the ultimate authority for all they say and do. Christians know that gays are to be despised because the Bible tells them so. They would implement the penalties specified in the Bible for homosexual activity if they could. The actions of this specific church, of which Olasky clearly approves, are only, to borrow from scripture, a foretaste of the feast to come, if conservative Christians ever gain the political power they so desperately seek.

"DON'T BEAM ME UP SCOTTIE!"
It isn't TOLERANCE that let's Uncle Herb's 'blow outs' denigrate Thanksgiving dinners. It's called giving in to the ol' fart's farts!

Cornpone says, "Unless the Lord build the house...". I wonder if he/she understands it was, and is, and ever will be this same Lord that fashioned a whip, and beat the money changers out of the temple, while shouting at them, "... you have turned my Father's house into a den of thieves!"?

And AudiR10 tells us about a church she attended with a DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL choir membership policy!? 'Sounds' like just the congregation for an unconfronted, unregenerate, unrepentive Uncle Herb.

A most gross example of "TOLERANCING" a wonderful truth blatantly right out of context is being played out in many churches today. In the aftermath of being told, "God loves you just the way you are.", we find more and more expressions of in house sin, and abominations attempting to overtly set up shop in God's sanctuaries.

Surely it won't be long before Zondervan releases the NEW ENGLISH TOLERANCE RED LETTER WATERED DOWN VERSION LEATHER BOUND BIBLE, sold in a Tolerant Christian Family bookstore near you.

Dear Jesus, where did you say you put that whip?

The Church
Was well within their rights to object to the content of the service. If someone comes to my home and shows me pictures I find offensive, I would toss them out also. I wonder if the city of Arlington would catch any flak from the ACLU if they set up a Nativity Scene on public property. I’ll lay money Vandumb wouldn’t have any problem with that scenario.

Vandumb is obviously a Liberal Screecher, whose Anti-Christian Bigotry FAR OUTWEIGHS any Gay Bashing he perceives in the article. All he says is “WAA! Christians are Evil! WAA! Gays are Good! WAA! Christians Lie! WAA! WAA! WAA!”.

Like Jesus said, “And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them."

CORRECTION
Sorry folks, I've just been told that it's the: NEW ENGLISH TOLERANCE WATERED DOWN PINK LETTER LEATHER AND CHAIN VERSION BIBLE.

I repent, but I don't recant.

Does anyone really care about gays
This person engaged in Gay sexual acts and paid the ultimate price.

You fools that champion or apologize for his lifestyle because you in effect killed him and all gays to come. I consider you evil and the bible says you will pay the price for letting people in effect commit suicide as you cheer from the coliseum seats like the decrepit Romans did.

Do you really care that these people are going to die an early death as well as murder others with their diseases?

Vandamm
You just validated my entire post, VERBATIM!

Gospel promises…

The promise of the Gospel is the forgiveness of sin, not the acceptance of sin. If Christ suffered to put an end to sin, then how can we who died to sin still live in it or condone it or make peace with it and profess Christianity?

We know and understand that the world hates the gospel message, because men are comfortable in their sin. They would rather have it than the righteousness that God offers through faith in Christ.

How is it that the culture is offended when churches profess faith in Jesus Christ by believing and practicing what He said?

‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations… teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you…’

Sexual perversion is the issue it is because this is where the culture is, having exchanged its heritage for vain philosophy. Romans 1 is in the Scripture for a reason, that we might know the eternal truth of the Infinite God in the midst of vain human reasoning that comes to nothing.

Those most ignorant of Christ are used most effectively by the deceiver of men. They mock the idea of accountability and judgment and store up wrath for the day of wrath. [Romans 2:5]


Homosexuality is a spiritual disease!
I do not want my church promoting a homosexual lifestyle! I could care less what two consenting adults do behind closed doors. It just does not concern me. Everyone has to justify their actions to God someday. But, keep it off my T.V., out of my schools, out of my church, away from my grandchildren and out of my face. Keep it to yourself. I don’t want to know about it. There is nothing more disgusting than to have someone introduce themselves and declare my name is... and I am gay! This is so offensive to me and imparts an image I just don't want dancing around in my head.

Since homosexuality is a behavior there is no way to look at someone and determine he or she is homosexual. Indulging in homosexual behavior does not make you part of some kind of new race. It has to be communicated. The behavior or orientation has to be communicated, confessed or flaunted. How can that be bigotry? It is not likely that a homosexual will suddenly appear and terrorize anyone. Why is failure to accept homosexual behavior bigotry or a phobia? Let’s not equate disgust, aversion, and repulsion with unreasonable fear. The homosexual agenda is plastered everywhere promoted by the courts, the NEA, ACLU, Media and special interest groups. I am sick of it. It's not normal. It's a perversion, an aberration, a deviancy and repugnant. It is a behavior that is dangerous and kills and simply out of sync with natural and spiritual values.

More
Homosexual behavior is not about love its about lust. Love between humans is beautiful, natural and to be celebrated. Unnatural sex between humans is lust. There is huge difference between love and lust. It is easy to get confused when values are blurred by predators and perverts preying on the young, the emotionally disturbed and vulnerable individuals. Many are damaged for life.

Homosexual behavior and the homosexual agenda is not about marriage, not about civil rights, diversity or any related thing. It is about recognition, validation, acceptance, legitimizing and embracing homosexuality and eliminating existing values and mores. Homosexuals want to feel good about themselves. They want to be celebrated and applauded based on a behavior. They can’t feel good about themselves until they leave that behavior. It is not genetic. If there were a genetic factor, it would have been eliminated from the gene pool many generations ago.

Homosexuality is a spiritual disease. It can be cured spiritually and there are many former homosexuals attesting to this fact.

Words to think about
"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God..." --2 Timothy 3:1-4 (NIV)

Probably not a Christian
I've thought for most of my life that I was a Christian, but having rad TH now for about two years, I'm coming to realize that I really can't be a Christian. Here are some of the reasons.

1. I'm a liberal Democrat. That's enough for starters, and many TH columnists and posters have made clear that liberals can't be Christians and Christians can't be liberals.

2. I support tolerance for gays and for gay marriage. You don't have to say any more on this one, since no Christian can spouse such things.

3. I don't take the Bible literally, so I think that natural science tells us more about the physical universe than Scripture does, and that includes evolution. Again, it's obvious that I can't be a Christian.

4. I belong to a mainline Protestant church. 'Nuff said.

5. I don't have enough hatred in me to be a real Christian. Real Christians express God's righteous hatred for all their enemies: liberals, gays, you name it. I thought Christianity had something to do with what the Bible calls "lovingkindness," but I know now that I was wrong, really wrong, about that. God hates lots of people, and so do his followers.

6. I sent my kids to public schools and think they got a really good education. Real Christians educate their kids at home so they can exercise control over what the kids learn. This prepares the kids for a life in a world filled with people who maybe don't think like their parents did.

So, anyway, I used to be a Christian, but TH shows me how incorrect I was to think that.

Truly Ironic
Vandumb lecturing someone about being hateful!

GIVE IT A REST
There is no point in trying to reason with these cry babies. They don't care about reason or truth, all they care about is accusations and finding people to feel sorry for them.

The facility belonged to the church members. They are the ones who owned it, they paid for it, they had absolutely no obligation to lend it to anyone. If they want to keep anyone out, for whatever reason, that is their right. Period!

To Vandumb and his ilk.
Do you guys have some type of "gay alert" program? Any column that even mentions homosexuals or the word gay and you instantly start flooding the comments with your cut and paste "gay-haters, I know you want to kill us all, gay abusers, you have evil talking points, wa, wa, wa". A word of advice: 1. If you spend your entire life looking to be offended or upset, you will always be successful. 2. Leave your homosexual behavior in the bedroom, park, bathroom, bus stop, or wherever....it doesn't need to define your every waking moment.


Aunt PityPat
They have some sort of alert system. Cetain HOT topics bring them out of the woodwork!

Gestell
Number three in your post is the only thing that would indicate your self described "non-christian" status. That you thought you were one but now realize that you are not is at least a step toward understanding. For those who are so quick to criticize the church my question is why would the family want a memorial service there anyway, why not a town hall or a funeral home? To Vandamm. I watched a heartwrenching film on the Sundance channel titled "The gift" where gay men purposely seek out someone with AIDs so they can have sex with them and get the disease. It was a well executed documentary. Some middle aged gay men who appeared through out the film, who all had AIDS and had lost loved ones to the AIDS virus said that they all had heart disease resulting from the powerful AIDS medication they were taking.

Growing presures on church teachings
I think that what the church did is similar to what I just read about a catholic school Board that voted to accept the resignation of a teacher, who had remarried after a civil divorce, but who, in the eyes of the Catholic Church, is still married to his first wife. The vote follows a previous vote in July when the board declined to accept the former teacher's resignation. The main point was In refusing the resignation in July, the board had attempted to act contrary to Church teaching, and therefore jeopardized its Catholic identity. I think both actions by the churches and how the media treats it highlights the growing pressure on Christian institutions to ignore their religious principles in favour of secular values, particularly the political aims of the homosexual movement. You can read the whole thing at http://by123w.bay123.mail.live.com/mail/ApplicationMain_11.10.0000.0115.aspx?culture=en-US&hash=1764847467.



Sorryyyyyyyy I am trying again!
This is the right site on the Catholic School Board. http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/aug/07080806.html

Midwest minister
Wis to ignore vandamm and his little tantrums. I don't think he is old enough to post on this site.

Vandamm
I'm no Christian, but I was raised by some fundamentalists, and I have to tell you that, bottom line, the Bible they believe in teaches that all sex outside of a male/female marriage is sinful. You're not going to get them to say otherwise. You can argue that they aren't as adamant in opposing heterosexuals who "shack up" as they are homosexuals, but in the end, they're going to view you as sinful. Why do you want their approval?

Vandamm
My my you come up with the darndest things. Take a deep breath and look at the source for the film "The Gift." It was the Sundance Film channel which last I knew had nothing to do with the Southern Baptist Church. This film was from the Gay community itself trying to disuade young gays from engaging in risky sexual behaviors. Look it up for yourself. The Bible says to not answer a fool according to his folly and you sir I can say unhesitatingly are a fool. As for the snake handler who essentially killed his son, if it is true he should be charged with murder. The heart disease comment was offered as an explanation for why some would think the man had AIDS. It does not really matter because the man is still dead.

Aunt Pity Pat
Thank you for the advice. I had already posted my response when I say your post. I will waste no more time on Vandamm.

Midwest Minister
Yes . . . I noticed that Vandamm was calling "The Gift" Southern Baptist propaganda also, but didn't think it was worth pointing it out to him--he'd just post something back to me in all caps about me hating him or some such nonsense . . .

reply to Midwest Minister
You mean it? Just one out of six reasons I'm not really a Christian? Golly, maybe I don't have to stop attending church, although you should keep in mind that mine is not really a Christian church--it's one of those Satanic mainline venues.

I do think you have a point about the incident in Olasky's column. The family of the janitor surely knew about the intolerance of the church he worked for and they should have picked a different place to have their memorial service. I mean, churches should post exactly what kinds of people are, or are not, eligible to have memorial services in them, so people know where not to go. Truth in advertising.

Number three in your post is the only thing that would indicate your self described "non-christian" status. That you thought you were one but now realize that you are not is at least a step toward understanding.

Vandamm
You said--"Wanna bet they have let memorial services held for adulterers, people who have been divorced or have been married several times... you may disapprove all of those behaviors but it's always the gays who get terated absolute the worst."

I agree that churches should be consistent. My father is a minister, and took a great deal of heat for the positions he took on certain issues. He would not officiate at marriage ceremonies for sexually active couples. When my divorced aunt, his own step-sister, wanted him to officate at her second marriage, he agreed to do it, but would not allow the ceremony to take place in his church and performed it at a private residence. He didn't care who or what one was--all were welcome to attend church. However, if one wanted membership in the church or to use him for church ceremonies, he insisted on high standards from all.

This will probably make you mad, but he wouldn't have hired a gay man to work at the church (again, he would have welcomed the man into a service with open arms). He also wouldn't have hired a man who was living with his girlfriend either.

Why I am a Christian and believe in God
Homosexuals need approval for their behavior because they know it is wrong. It would be so much easier if God would just go away. But Why won't God go away. Why we judge. Why we feel guilty when we know we are doing something wrong. We are all hard-wired to believe in God. Some more than others. I find the research done on the brain that shows there may be a God-part of the brain in the temporal lobe very interesting. Evidence suggests that the deepest origins of religion are based in mystical experience, and that religions persist because the wiring of the human brain continues to provide believers with a range of unitary experiences that are interpreted as assurances that God exists. Does God exists because he gave us a brain or does god exist because he is hard-wired into our brain. Sort of the... which came first...question. Gives a whole new meaning to "I AM WHO I AM". I have read some studies that have shown that men and women who practice any mainstream faith live longer, have fewer strokes, less heart disease, better immune system function, and lower blood pressure than the population at large. Not only does religion lead to physical benefits, but also superior mental health to the surprise of modern psychiatrists. Until (1994) “strong religious beliefs” were classified as a mental disorder. Research shows that religious beliefs can improve mental and emotional health. Drug abuse, alcoholism, divorce, and suicide are lower among religious people than the general population. Religious people are less likely to suffer from depression and anxiety. Religious communities foster strong social support networks, and frown on risky indulgences like promiscuous sex, and drugs. Prayer and meditation have health benefits. The strongest point of religion is its power to alleviate existential stress. A higher power is in control that can help you. Religion gives purpose and meaning to our lives.

Gee, I think most Christians are like
your father. I think most Christians try to treat homosexual men and women with compassion. Homosexuals know that Christians have non-negotiable differences with them on moral, ideological, and spiritual grounds, and they equate those differences with hatred. We need to break down the walls of hatred and instead build bridges for one on one interaction, without for a moment compromising our convictions. I truly believe that Homosexuality is a spiritual disease. It can be cured spiritually and there are many former homosexuals attesting to this fact.

In my opinion, the church displayed the
correct balance between fidelity to Scripture and compassion for others. It's unfortunate that it was discovered so late that the family wanted to defile God's holy sanctuary by proselytizing for the homosexual lifestyle, but the church took appropriate action. We can't allow others to pressure us into compromising our beliefs.
However, I am glad the author pointed out that there are other sins besides homosexuality as well. Heterosexual promiscuity has even more disastrous consequences. Homosexual promiscuity has brought us AIDS; heterosexual promiscuity has brought us teen pregnancies, high abortion rates, divorce, and fatherlessness, which in turn brings crime, mental illness, and poverty. I'd like to think this church would take the same stance if an unmarried cohabiter died and the family wanted to show pictures of the other cohabiter.
On the other hand, the hypothetical cohabiter may've intended to right the situation by marrying (allowing a church to give the deceased the benefit of the doubt), while a homosexual couple can do no such thing. This brings me to my thoughts on the comments coming from the partner of the deceased. Nobody says that a loving connection with someone is wrong. You can be best friends and almost everyone will be happy for you. It's that you hold yourself out to be the same as a married couple. It's that you sodomize each other that bothers people.
What if a Muslim died, and they wanted to have a Muslim prayer during the service? I hope nobody'd say it's "hateful" to exclude a Muslim prayer service from a Christian church. It'd simply be inconsistent with the purpose of a church to allow anyone to use its pulpit to speak contrary to the church's message. It's private property. If you want to spread a different message, buy your own property, or do it in a public forum-no one's stopping you.

Vandamm, honey
Vandamm: I wish I could take you out to coffee (or the beverage of your choice) and talk with you. I suspect you've had bad experiences with Phelps-type people (those "God hates ****" folks) and think all Christians are like them. But though difficult, it's possible to keep a biblical stance on sin while having compassion for those caught in it. I'm not going to expect a homosexual to change outside of the healing of the Holy Spirit (not saying it's impossible, just unlikely). I don't think that a homosexual who does manage to change is suddenly pure in God's eyes, either. No one is saved outside the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
I think you've hit the nail on the head in one respect, though. Homosexual acceptance is incompatible with religious liberty, and society will have to choose one or the other.

It always comes out, doesn't it?
Whenever homosexuality is the topic, intolerant Christians are sure to come out in droves. I'm really happy for those who know the absolute truth and who feel perfectly empowered to enforce it. Of course, that's what religion is for, so I guess you're doing a good job. I'm sure now that the God about whom my mainline Protestant church teaches is not the true God. The true God is small, spiteful, quick to anger, abiding in His hatred, and is always there to encourage His people to self-righteousness. He is a god devoid of compassion and committed to justifying his wrath. Altogether a nasty piece of work. No wonder he's a conservative.

Gestell
Need an Old Testament refresher course? God isn't a wishy-washy Santa that thinks you're OK because you're "good enough." Real judgment comes on those who persist in defying Him.

However, he wants people to turn to Him, and has given them a way. I am righteous because I have been clothed with the righteousness of Christ.

TIME TO PUT YOUR PEARLS AWAY...
My dear Comicalcupcake,

Bless your heart for trying, but it appears with the likes of Vandamm, and his wannabe mentor Gestell, it's, as a much earlier respondant said, "time to kick the dust off your shoes and move on".

1Cor. 1:18 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness...".

Besides, brother(?) Gestell has most clearly declared a recent recanting of his faith into a non-Christian stance. (Oh, and given as how he loves "truth", he might want to update his blog bio. in that regard. For just a few moments ago I read that he still claims he is one.)

"... in that day many will come and say Lord, Lord,... and I will say to them, 'Depart from me you that work lawlessness. I never knew you'."

-Jesus


Vandamn,
Crazy man!

replies to comicalcupcake and Bafundi
Well, Bafundi is right. It is time to move on. And as for my OT knowledge, it's up to scratch. So, comicalcupcake, I'll ask you: do you or do you not agree that all of the punishments for offenses against God in the OT should be used today? If the OT is so important to you, then I hope you have the faith and the will to endorse it in its entirety. No fair saying things like "well, good heavens, we don't need to execute gays," when it's plainly God's command to do so.

Rev. Phelps is still the best Christian conservative out there because he gets it.

Hi Gestell--hope I can clarify
I do not mean my reference to the OT to say that we should live under Mosaic law. I am not a Reconstructionist. Praise the Lord that we are, in the church age, free from the condemnation of Mosaic law! I do believe that that law was correct for that time and place, and that it can give guidelines as to how to live our lives.

As some scholars have explained, different laws had different purposes, whether moral, ceremonial, or health. All types can illuminate in some way. Salvation does not come from following these laws (even the moral ones) but from repenting and believing in Christ. However, in directing one's daily life, OT moral law, much of which was reaffirmed and expanded upon in Jesus' teachings, still holds guiding principles. If something was considered a sin then, it will still be a sin now, if done in the same type of situation. If the penalty for something was severe, that probably means it's something we should avoid even today. But I emphasize that following God's Word is an expression of obedience to God in a renewed life, not a rigid set of rules to earn our way to heaven.

I intended by my reference to the OT to say that God is angered by sin. It is important to remember that the God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT, though through Christ we are under grace. God is not any less angered by intentional, unrepentant sin than He was then. But He offers grace and forgiveness to those who will repent from their sins and turn to Him through his Son.

I for one do not see how any of Mr. Phelps' well-known actions are consistent with relationship with a God who extends grace to a repentant sinner. It's true that condemnation awaits those who continue to live in sin, but that's only half the story, and not the good half at that.

I'm not sure you'll agree, but I hope I at least made myself clearer.

reply to comicalcupcake
I urge you to take a look at Rev. Phelps' website. His treatise on God's hatred should give any Christian something to think about. Your way of reading the OT is certainly traditional enough. Luther's teaching concerning the primis usus legis (primary use of the Law) has the OT identifying and labeling sin and the NT as the scripture disclosing Christ's salvation and the forgiveness of sin. However traditional it is in Christianity, it's still a doctrine that lets the conservative Christian avail herself of all the rhetorical firepower, condemnation, and hate-mongering of the OT without having to step up and take responsibility for either implementing the Law or discouraging other Christians from trying to implement it. The result of implementing the Law, of course, would be radically unacceptable to the majority of Christians living today. Thus, the present-day Christian is hypocritical, espousing a Law under which she would not want to live.
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