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Tuesday, March 04, 2008
Mario Diaz :: Townhall.com Columnist
Pink Bunnies and the Pledge
by Mario Diaz
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Many people think the battle over the words “under God” in our Pledge of Allegiance is over.  They remember that some extremist judges struck the words down saying they violated the now deified “separation of church and state,” but they also vaguely remember the Senate passing a resolution in support of the Pledge and the more than 100 House members gathered outside the Capitol reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in a spectacular show of support.

That display made us feel really good, but there’s just one problem: it did nothing to protect the Pledge of Allegiance.

That was June 26, 2002, believe it or not, and still there has been no resolution on the lawsuit that started the whole controversy.  Worse yet, we are still waiting for our lawmakers to back up their rhetoric and pass a bill protecting our religious freedoms by protecting the words “under God” in our Pledge.

While nothing is done to protect the Pledge, the forces attempting to remove any mention of God from the public square keep going and going and going like the Energizer bunny.

“We the people” are partly to blame for this because we’ve let them get away with it.  We allowed ourselves to believe that our representatives had listened to our outcry and that the matter would be taken care of when that decision came down.

What a foolish thing to think.  Some say curiosity killed the cat; I’m thinking it was the cat’s naiveté.

But we are not an irrational people, and we have to learn from our mistakes.  It is clear we cannot stay “asleep at the wheel,” blindly trusting that those men and women elected to carry out the will of the people will do the right thing.  We have to stand up and protect our religious freedoms or we will continue to loose them bit by bit.

The Pledge of Allegiance case is one of those bits, and we need to demand that it be protected.

The Pledge of Allegiance case involved devout atheist Michael Newdow, who brought suit against everyone he could think of: the United States, Congress, the President, the State of California, Elk Grove Unified School District and its superintendent, and the Sacramento City Unified School District and its superintendent.  Newdow alleged that the fact that his daughter had to hear the teacher-led Pledge of Allegiance in school with the words “under God” was a violation of the Establishment and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.  He argued that it violated his right to direct his daughter’s religious education. 

A magistrate judge examined the arguments and concluded that, as we all know, the Pledge is constitutional.  The District Court took a look at Newdow’s argument and agreed with the magistrate judge’s dismissal of Newdow’s capricious complaint.

But the enemies of God in public life got what they wanted in the end — to bring the claim before the iniquitous United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.  Leaning on the Ninth’s liberal record, and its reputation as the most overturned appellate court in the country, Newdow hoped they would validate his arguments and do the absurd: declare the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional.  That would definitely get him before the Supreme Court.

And he was right. 

The Ninth Circuit reversed the holding of the district court, saying Newdow had standing to challenge a practice that interferes with his right to direct his daughter’s religious education and that the words “under God” on the Pledge were a violation of the Establishment Clause.

At the same time, we also learned that Newdow’s daughter and her mother, who had complete legal custody, did not want any part of the suit because they were Christians and did not have a problem with the Pledge of Allegiance.  Still, “under God” was out now.

It is also interesting to point out that Newdow’s arguments are so extreme that even the Ninth Circuit had to dispense with some of them like rubbish.  For example, the court points out that he was not only suing the school district where his daughter goes to school, but he was also trying to sue a neighboring district, because his daughter might go there in the future.

Sure, go and sue Wal-Mart because you may fall at one of their stores some day.

Another argument that reveals the frivolous nature of Newdow’s claim is the bravado of his prayer for relief.

Newdow asks the district court to order the President of the United States… to “alter, modify or repeal” the Pledge by removing the words “under God”’ and to order the United States Congress… “immediately to act” to remove the words “under God” from the Pledge.

With all of Mr. Newdow’s degrees and titles, it would not be credible to think that this was done out of ignorance of the law.  I’m sure he’s heard that we have three separate branches of government.  No, this purposeful disregard for the law shows complete disrespect for the Constitution and makes a mockery of the court.

The result was that the court actually had to devote some of its valuable time to giving Mr. Newdow a refresher course in basic civics.

The President… is not an appropriate defendant in an action challenging the constitutionality of a federal statute.  See Franklin v. Massachusetts … (observing that a court of the United States “‘has no jurisdiction of a bill to enjoin the President in the performance of his official duties’” …

Similarly… the federal courts lack jurisdiction to issue orders directing Congress to enact or amend legislation…  Because the words that amended the Pledge were enacted into law by statute, the district court may not direct Congress to delete those words any more than it may order the President to take such action.  All this, of course, is aside from the fact that the President has no authority to amend a statute or declare a law unconstitutional, those functions being reserved to Congress and the federal judiciary respectively.

Still, the Ninth Circuit gave legitimacy to Mr. Newdow’s arguments and concluded that the words “under God” in the Pledge are unconstitutional.  They said the statement that the United States is a nation “under God” is an establishment of religion.

How in the world the hearing, not even the saying, of the words “under God” in the Pledge to the flag establishes a religion, nobody knows.  Maybe churches should substitute sermons with the pledge.  According to the Ninth Circuit, it would probably be more effective.

That decision was later appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, which ultimately sidestepped the central issue by ruling that Mr. Newdow did not have standing to challenge the Pledge of Allegiance.  The case was therefore reversed and it is now again at the Ninth Circuit where we await a new decision by the court. 

After all this time, the words “under God” on the Pledge are in as much a danger of being declared unconstitutional as ever.  We must remain diligent and tell our Senators and Representatives that we want our Pledge protected.

But something good did come out of the Supreme Court’s decision.  Three justices, Chief Justice Rehnquist, Justice O’Connor and Justice Thomas, did not shy away from the challenge of answering the question of constitutionality and, although their analyses were not part of the majority opinion and therefore not legally binding, they gave us and the Ninth Circuit (if it would care to listen) a strong message that the words “under God” in the Pledge of allegiance are constitutional.

Chief Justice Rehnquist gave a great historical account of the many instances where “patriotic invocations of God and official acknowledgments of religion’s role in our Nation’s history” were not only accepted but encouraged.  He talked, among other examples, about George Washington’s first inauguration on April 30, 1789, where “Washington put his right hand on the Bible, opened to Psalm 121:1: ‘I raise my eyes toward the hills.  Whence shall my help come.;’” he talked about the first Thanksgiving proclamation which started, “Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor;” he even referenced the last verse of our own national anthem “The Star-Spangled Banner,” adopted by Congress in 1931, which says, “then conquer we must, when our cause it is just, and this be our motto: ‘In God is our trust.’  And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave, o’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!”

As all reasonable people already know, the Chief Justice pointed out that these examples serve to show us that our Nation’s culture embraces our religious history and character.  He concluded “I do not believe that the phrase ‘under God’ in the Pledge converts its recital into a ‘religious exercise’…”

Justice O’Connor agreed, emphasizing that the reasonable observer, “fully aware of our national history and the origins of such practices, would not perceive these acknowledgments as signifying a government endorsement of any specific religion, or even of religion over non-religion.”

But that is a reasonable observer, and the people who are obsessed with removing God from our culture are not

Justice O’Connor explained that Mr. Newdow’s “distaste for the reference to ‘one Nation under God,’ however sincere, cannot be the yardstick of our Establishment Clause inquiry.  Certain ceremonial references to God and religion in our Nation are the inevitable consequence of the religious history that gave birth to our founding principles of liberty.”

She concluded, “I believe that petitioner school district’s policy of having its teachers lead students in voluntary recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance does not offend the Establishment Clause.”

Justice Thomas summarized his opinion in a very simple way: “We granted certiorari in this case to decide whether the Elk Grove Unified School District’s Pledge policy violates the Constitution.  The answer to that question is: ‘no.’"

As we await its decision once again, let’s hope the Ninth Circuit listens.  But don’t hold your breath.

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About The Author

Mario Diaz is the Policy Director for Legal Issues at Concerned Women for America.

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So can they personally stop me
from saying Under God if I want to?

In the Anglican church I used to attend, we who had memorized all the really good hymns before they were sanitized for our protection always sang the old words very loudly to drown out those who were somehow afraid of saying "though the eye of SINFUL MAN thy glory may not see" for one example.

Should any Marching Mommy decide to banish the words from the written Pledge, she cannot stop me from roaring them at the top of my voice in their proper position when Pledging.

To Audi
Amen, sister.

We could use a few thousand of you in every city.

No Audi, they can't
However, if not having "under god" was good enough for the BAPTIST MINISTER who wrote the pledge, why isn't that good enough for you?

I don't understand...
...why some people need to have the words "under God" in the pledge in order to practice their religion. Were they prevented from practicing their religion prior to the 1950's when the phrase was added to the pledge? Why does it seem like when some Christians claim the right to practice their religion it comes out sounding more like they want the right to impose their religion?

Dear JJ
I recall having to re-memorize the pledge when I was young. No mention of Christianity was offered at that time. Your paranoia about Christians wanting to "impose" their religion via the words "under God" in The Pledge of Allegiance tends to place you in the company of Newdow. Re-read the Supreme Court Justices analysis again. Unless you prefer Newdow's "Captain Ahab" style vendetta.

Captain Ahab
So taking the words out of the pledge is 'Captain Ahab'-like, but putting the words into the pledge isn't?

Ahab had
a vendetta (hyper-revenge complex) against the white whale that bit off his leg. My analogy suggests that Newdow has a vendetta against Christianity. As the author of the article notes, Newdow's wife and daughter are Christians. Obviously, one way he can strike back at them is by taking on the whole system that supposedly is inculcating the populace with Christianity.
So, Mr. AndyR, what vendetta are you implying exists by putting the words "under God" into the Pledge of Allegiance? Or, did you misunderstand the analogy?

Profblog
"what vendetta are you implying exists by putting the words "under God" into the Pledge of Allegiance? "

Against atheism. It's saying that people who don't believe in God are somehow less American than those who do. The judge understood it. I'm guessing the Baptist minister who wrote the pledge did too.

I am guessing
that if an atheist doesn't want the words "under God" in the pledge, then he probably would like to remove any reference to God from the declartation of Independence and all other public expressions of religion from the public square so we can be an atheist nation in point of fact to the world's eyes. The phrase is E pluribus unum, out of the many one. It is not unum rex pluribus, the one rules many. It is height of arrogance for a minority to force the majority to do what it wants. Freedom not to say the words under god is not being denied to the minority while should the privildge to say them be taken away from the majority.

I see
So, The Supreme Court Justices have been hoodwinked by a Baptist minister in his stealth attempt to further a Christian vendetta against atheism and marginalize non-Christians?
To quote: "Justice O’Connor agreed, emphasizing that the reasonable observer, “fully aware of our national history and the origins of such practices, would not perceive these acknowledgments as signifying a government endorsement of any specific religion, or even of religion over non-religion.”
Now, a plain reading of this esteemed justice will render your idea of the existence of a Christian vendetta, via the words "under God" in The Pledge, as falling outside of her words, "reasonable observer." Newdow is not one, and your insistence of a vendetta existing smacks of the same irrational paranoia. If you are not a Christian, take comfort in the Justice's words: "or even of religion over non-religion.” If you find no comfort there, then pace the deck with Ahab.

Sorry
my above post is addressed to Mr. AndyR. Mr. Bowie, you obviously will not join him.

Red Herrings
Putting the words INTO the pledge is not the issue. Nor is "in God we trust" on our money or any other such nonsense that is sure to be brought up today.

The issue is whether the pledge is unconstitutional.

I challenge everyone to debate your respective points of view without the predictable red herrings.

God and patriotism
Jim Bowie, I think the radical secualrists would also like to retrocede New Jersey to Britain because its John Witherspoon, who represented that state at the signing of the Declaration of Independence, was a Presbyterian clergyman.

I will also admit to being one who, while proud of his service to his country and a patriot, could not in good faith recite the Pledge of Allegiance if the "under God" were ommitted. The 20th century was too chockablock with atrocities committed in the names of nations that put themselves "over all".

Maybe we all need to re-read Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address.

Atheist nation?
Er no, that would involve putting the words 'There is no God' into the pledge. I'd fight as strongly against that as against 'There is a God'.

It's secular, not atheist. As in freedom to believe what you want, whether it be Baptist, Catholic, Muslim, or none of the above, with none being seen by the state as 'better' than any other.

"and your insistence of a vendetta existing smacks of the same irrational paranoia. "

Hmm, it was you who brought up vendettas mate, not me. But sure, I'M the paranoid one.

So those people in Dover trying to get ID taught in the schools, for the sake of fairness and even-handedness, would THEY be Ahabs in your professorial opinion?

Dear "No Tolerance for Liars"
The author of the article did not bring up your perceived "issue." A quick search of The Pledge yields several facts. Namely, it has been changed several times before and currently several groups tend to insert the words "equality" or "unborn," in their preferred version, depending on their particular causes.
So, regarding whether it is "constitutional, or unconstitutional" is actually a moot point because it is not in the Constitution at all. It is not Constitutionally required of anyone, nor is there widespread coersion to say it. Jehovah's Witnesses have had the right to not say it for decades. It's actually surprising that The Supreme Court would be asked to rule on a non-Constitutional item at all.
Newdow brought suit, as the author notes: "Newdow alleged that the fact that his daughter had to hear the teacher-led Pledge of Allegiance in school with the words “under God” was a violation of the Establishment and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. He argued that it violated his right to direct his daughter’s religious education." Evidently, the challenge was not about whether The Pledge was constitutional, but that his daughter's reciting it with "under God" was directing his daughter's religious education, ergo a constitutional violation. The Pledge itself should not be under question, but rather, whether it constitutes religious education. The Justices quoted by the author agreed that "under God" did not constitute religious education nor did it create or sanction a state religion.
So, red herrings aside, the constitutionality of The Pledge itself is a moot point.


Dear AndyR
If "those people in Dover trying to get ID taught in the schools, for the sake of fairness and even-handedness" are trying to make their case, it's what you suggest, "As in freedom to believe what you want, whether it be Baptist, Catholic, Muslim, or none of the above, with none being seen by the state as 'better' than any other." We all are free to make our case. Should they, having failed to change the system, after The State Supreme Court ruled against them, continue on ad infinitum, then they are candidates for the classification of having a vendetta. Newdow is relentless, as was Ahab in the novel I referred to above. Fear of those words "under God" in The Pledge is probably misplaced, at best.

Dear Profblog
"Should they, having failed to change the system, after The State Supreme Court ruled against them, continue on ad infinitum, then they are candidates for the classification of having a vendetta."

Cool, glad that you said that. Put Coulter, Dinesh D'Souza etc into that bracket then.

[Of course, science doesn't work along the same rules as 'none being any better than the other'. Facts are pesky things in that way.]

AndyR
Praise Allah! Right before they lop your pimple off.

Under God! with liberty and JUSTICE FOR ALL!

HHHHMMMMMM

Makes people like me wonder out loud!~

Subject Christianity to public scrutiny
As a secular and athiest I don't have a total problem with Christians, nor their wish to put the doctrines of their religion into our public and government life. I recognize that I'm a minority and most Americans self-identify as Christians. But I recognize Christian rights as being derived from the principles of democracy.

However, I do ask for something. I'd like to propose that one of our congressmen or senators in Washington stand up and offer a sense of the congress resolution, for an individual vote so every one will know who voted how, as follows:

"Be it resolved that it is the sense of the senate that we affirm that Jesus Christ died for our sins, rose from the dread in a resurection, and that taking him as our savior is the only path to heaven and that those who do not take Jesus Christ as their savior, such as Jews and athiests go to hell."

I would dearly like to see that debated in congress, with congress holding hearings and bringing in various people to testify about whether that proposition is true or not.

My reasoning is this: If you are going to take a position on a political issue which impacts every American and your position is dictated by the Bible, the legislator should be under an obligation to have the public scrutinize the Bible to see if, in the public's mind, the Bible is true. For example, is it truly God's will to prohibit gay marriage? I think this should be debated openly and fully in congress. Then, the congress can go on record, if that's how it turns out, as believing that they are doing God's will.

That should be:
"rose from the dead" of course.

Quick FYI.
When teaching the pledge to cub scouts...a common error (everybody makes) when reciting the Pledge is to put a pause between "nation" and "under".

Scouts learn the proper way of reciting the pledge which is to say "one nation under God" as a complete phrase without any pause.

So technically the whole phrase would have to be removed and a new one put into it's place...not just the "under God" portion.

SSGT
"Praise Allah! Right before they lop your pimple off."

I didn't realise you were a Muslim mate!

Proud Liberal
The pledge doesn't mention Jesus. "One nation under God" promotes our freedom of religion as a unique idea introduced to the world by the USA and it's founding fathers. It's in there as a reminder for us all.

Western bondbeam
"The pledge doesn't mention Jesus. "

What difference does that make? Hindus believe in more than one God, so they are still excluded here. Why not say 'under Gods'? I don't see how this promotes freedom of religion.

Andy R
Under Gods? That would then leave out most religions. Under God without the "s" allows Hindu Christian Muslim Judiasm etc....Are there Hindu groups lobbying for Under God to be removed? Jews? Muslims?..."God" implies religion...not Jesus or Christianity.

Western bondbeam
"Under Gods? That would then leave out most religions."

No, because they'd all be included collectively.

""God" implies religion"
Then how can it include atheism? Or indeed Budhism, which doesn't really have any Gods either.

Again, I don't see how 'Under God' is promoting freedom of religion.



Western Bondbeam
I dunno.

First off the people who wanted it in the pledge were Christian. It doesn't pay to neglect a piece of information available to us and say they were being altruistic.

Secondly, you have Christians today esousing positions from the Christian Bible and these are the people who are pushing for more God in government. It's not right to ignore facts which we know.

Reality
In typical irrationality, Diaz states that somehow we are to blame for the 9th circuit court ruling in this case. Get real. The 9th circuit has had more reversals than any other district court. Diaz also thinks WE elect those to carry out our will. Wake up. Referendums are overturned or disallowed, legislators make unconstitutional laws, courts make up "personal rights", etc. Open your eyes, Diaz. This is a spiritual battle. They hated Jesus and they will hate you, Christian. Hatred feeds off itself. It will NEVER stop, so get into the good fight. The Christians' problem is that we in the USA are so "blessed" we have forgotten the cost of discipleship - the giving up of one's own life for the sake of Christ. Where are our spiritual heroes. Dear God, it is going to get much much worse with whoever is the next President of our lost country.

Shalom

CC
CC, I don't know any atheists who hate Christ. Many see him as a great philosopher, up there with Plato, Socrates. Perhaps the greatest of all. They just don't believe in a God, and therefore don't believe he was the son of God.

jim bowie
Of course, there are militant and too-vocal athiests that really skew the general perception. But I disagree with your broad guess about how 'we' would want to remove the references from documents like the declaration of independence.

Many past and present leaders use their faith to guide their decisions. There's no reason they shouldn't be able to speak of that, and most certainly no reason to alter historical documents.

But, I do ask that I can pledge my allegiance to this flawed but fantastic country every day and mean it sincerely, without a reference to religious faith.

A tip for other conservative secular humanists: 'under law' works for me in place of 'under god' without drawing attention to what should be a unifying, rather than divisive, experience.

JustMe
Nicely put JustMe.

The great thing about America
is that you may say anything you like, but you can't force anyone else to say what you want.
If you want to say "under law" instead of "under god" no one will put you in jail, but don't prohibit me from saying "under God" if I so choose.
Don't try to mandate what words may come out of my mouth unless they will cause true harm (as in yelling fire in a crowded movie theater causing mass mayhem) to someone else.

Andy R
"No, because they'd all be included collectively."
------
That is what "God" was intended to do...include all religions collectively.

"Then how can it include atheism? Or indeed Budhism, which doesn't really have any Gods either.

Again, I don't see how 'Under God' is promoting freedom of religion."
---------------
It is meant to be symbolic of "all religions" including Budhism. It is not meant to be politically correct (how can it be) but it is only a reminder of the original intent the founding fathers had for "freedom of religion" that was unique to the USA at the time our country was formed.

JustMe
writes:
"A tip for other conservative secular humanists: 'under law' works for me in place of 'under god' without drawing attention to what should be a unifying, rather than divisive, experience"

The only thing making it divisive is an athiest!
75% of the folks in this country want "under God" in it! Why should we cow tow to the small mass, and minded I might add?

Proud Liberal
"First off the people who wanted it in the pledge were Christian. It doesn't pay to neglect a piece of information available to us and say they were being altruistic.

Secondly, you have Christians today esousing positions from the Christian Bible and these are the people who are pushing for more God in government. It's not right to ignore facts which we know."
--------------------
Nothing you stated changes the true meaning behind the pledge and it's intentions. YOU are Pledging allegiance to the USA under "whichever God YOU choose. It's left up to the person who is taking the "PLEDGE".

I wasn't ignoring facts regaring positions governmental offials take. I merely pointed out that despite how the pledge was formed and rewritten etc...it still comes back to the PERSON taking the pledge and what they believe. It's always left up to the individual and their freedom to decide which God to follow.

the pledge and money
When I pledge allegiance I say it the same way I learned. I do not put in spook comments. Those who choose to put in spook oritory are free so to do after the rest of us are through. But with our money we can not avoid reading spook propaganda like that of the Nazis. Of course we can cross it off bills, but it would take a drill to correct coins. Those who do not want to be propagandized by the spook lovers should not be imposed upon by government.

A simple question
What I often find fascinating about the separation of church and state issue is that no one ever brings up holidays. If the words "under God" cannot be kept into the Pledge of Allegiance on the basis of the separation of church and state issue, then how is it that government recognizes christian holidays in a way that they do not for any other religion ?

For example, should government give time off or additional compensation on any of the following days: Good Friday, Easter Sunday, Christmas Eve, or Christmas Day ? Thanksgiving was established by a presidential proclamation. Abraham Lincoln set aside the 4th Thursday in November as a day to give thanks to God. All the pilgrim stuff crept in later just like the words, "under God".

If the separation of church and state issue is to be consistent, then all government offices should be opened during normal business hours on all of the preceding days, assuming that is during there normal days of operations. No overtime pay should be allowed, nor additional compensation in any manner, e.g. days off. Some government functions continue on weekends so it would be normal for them to be opened on Easter Sunday. Even giving additional compensation is a defacto recognition of a particular religion.

Don't hold your breath, the ACLU would never touch this.

Tibby


Good Points
However this argument is really a moot point in the not too distant future. Every Knee Shall Bow and every Tounge Shall Proclaim Christ as Lord. So the only argument before that is a personal one: Will I personally accept Christ as a Savior of my Sins or will I face him on that day of judgement and offer arguments and excuses? Personal responsibility of ones sins is really the point of the "God Argument" Not beleiving will not make it so. Any argument after that is just deflecting personal responsibility.
But the answer is quite simple. Accept total Love, accept total forgivness, and accept total freedom from death and an eternity seperated from the One who Loves you more than anything, unconditionally: GOD. 2 Chronicles 7:14 is His Prayer for Us. Think About it! Reigndownusa.com

The basics missed
I can't understand what any of this has to do with Christianity. I am a Christian and what is said in a pledge or printed on money has not a whit to do with my faith.
God is a personal God that dwells within us, it is also pretty clear we are to concerne ourselves with our own spirituality and leave his enemies for him to deal with as he sees fit.
To think God needs us to battle secularists and atheists is to presume God is not capable of handling his own affairs.
My advice to Christians is to shut up, pull the beam from your eye, get your own life right with God and live in peace and humility. You can then fulfill your obligation to be an example to unbelievers as is laid out in scriptures.
God does not need lawsuits or public phrases and mounuments to assist him. Believe me he is fully capable when dealing with his enemies.

Westbeam
"It is not meant to be politically correct (how can it be)"

Pardon? Who mentioned political correctness? What on earth does that phrase mean anyway?

"it is only a reminder of the original intent the founding fathers had for "freedom of religion""

The thing is that, if anything, it seems to be AGAINST their original intent, not supporting it. And you explain HOW it reminds us, or supports it? And why did it take 60 years to put the words 'Under God' in, anyway? The original authors didn't know what they were doing? Were we just waiting till they died before we put it in?

Baptist Ministers
There are a number of things that I (a Catholic) would consider to be perhaps good enough for a Baptist Minister but not good enough for me.

Fortunately (or unfortunately if you're a Liberal) I do not decide what I will or will not say by taking a vote.

AndyR
"Pardon? Who mentioned political correctness? What on earth does that phrase mean anyway?"
-------------
You brought up atheists and Hindus as a couple of groups that might not be covered by the "under God" umbrella. Some might consider them "left out" of the group and somehow there is a need to include them (ie Political Correctness).

"The thing is that, if anything, it seems to be AGAINST their original intent, not supporting it. And you explain HOW it reminds us, or supports it?"

---------------
Again....YOU are Pledging allegiance to the USA under "whichever God YOU choose or DONT choose for that matter. It's freedom and it's left up to the person who is taking the "PLEDGE". To put it plainly...under God is a generic term for religious freedom.
----------------

And why did it take 60 years to put the words 'Under God' in, anyway? The original authors didn't know what they were doing? Were we just waiting till they died before we put it in?"
---------
Why does it matter? You still have the freedom to choose whichever religion you want, right. Atheism, Hindu, or Christianity. You have that freedom regardless of the phrase in the pledge. It serves to remind us of our freedoms that we have. Plain and simple.

PC
"Some might consider them "left out" of the group and somehow there is a need to include them (ie Political Correctness)."

We're talking about the constitution. Freedom of religion isn't about 'PC'. I was saying that excluding religious groups or atheists is unconstitutional, not un-PC. It seems to be one of those phrases people use to shut down debate. Right-wingers get accused of being racist, left-wingers get accused of being PC. Argument grinds to a halt...

"You have that freedom regardless of the phrase in the pledge."

Quite. Which works both ways. So why is it so important to have that phrase in - you'll still have that freedom either way...

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree!

AndyR
"We're talking about the constitution. Freedom of religion isn't about 'PC'. I was saying that excluding religious groups or atheists is unconstitutional, not un-PC. It seems to be one of those phrases people use to shut down debate. Right-wingers get accused of being racist, left-wingers get accused of being PC. Argument grinds to a halt...
--------
I was talking about the Pledge of Allegiance....NOT the constitution. The PC comment was in response to you claiming UNDER GOD leaves out atheists and Hindus. It is a simple generic phrase meant to cover everyone however the PC crowd complains "what about us atheists, or Hindus, or whaterver". I see the phrase as covering everyone...just because atheists feel left out, doesn't mean they are.



"Quite. Which works both ways. So why is it so important to have that phrase in - you'll still have that freedom either way..."

------
I wasn't arguing for leaving it in or out....merely pointing out the reason for it being in there. It reminds us of our history and heritage as a nation, where we started and where we are headed. Removing it would serve no purpose except to say that we no longer care about freedom of religion...that it is no longer important to us as a nation. It's symbolic and removing it would be symbolic as well.
-----------
"Guess we'll have to agree to disagree"

Agreed.

Some history for profblog
"under god" was added to the pledge at the behest of the ROMAN CATHOLIC organization called the Knights of Columbus, who wanted to ensure that the US had "god on its side" in the fight against the "godless red commies".

So tell me again how it's not a case of some christians trying to force their religion upon everyone in the US? Tell me so I can laugh at you.

jim bowie
Why weren't the words "under god" originally in the pledge, given that the pledge was written by a BAPTIST MINISTER? Please explain how a BAPTIST MINISTER just somehow forgot to include those words, since they apparently are so important. Please explain it. Now.

God's not on our side
One of the things which made Bush unfit for the presidency is that he thought God is on America's side and wanted him to invade Iraq. There's no doubt in my mind that God couldn't care less whether Bush invaded Iraq or not.

So, does the "one nation under God" tend to give Americans a false idea that God is on our side? I wouldn't be surprised.

Knight
No, knight_of_baawa, apparently 'Under God' is and all-inclusive phrase that somehow includes everyone, including people who believe in more than one God, and even the millions who believe in no God at all.

We're not sure HOW it includes them, but apparently it does.

AndyR
"'Under God' is and all-inclusive phrase that somehow includes everyone, including people who believe in more than one God, and even the millions who believe in no God at all.

We're not sure HOW it includes them, but apparently it does."

-----------

Yes, for PC sake, lets rephrase it to "that part of the nation under God (for those that believe in that sort of thing) AND also the other part of the nation Under....?.....Um....The Sky(for the rest of us that like to be free to not be persecuted for not believing in God)" AND also let us not forget about the Hindus in our nation under many Gods AND lets...see for the Jehovah Witnesses...we know you hate the flag and all but we still feel the need to include you in our "all inclusive" pledge AND lets see who do we have left...

Western
Again with the PC?

Pointing out that 'under God' cannot be called inclusive of atheists is a statement of fact, not an appeal to PC.

Why not just change it to 'one nation under Jesus' and have done with it. Accuse anyone who complains of being 'PC', that'll shut them up.

Western Bondbeam
The bottom line is that the pledge is tribal, as I think someone else may have said. America has a distinct over-culture, though it has many sub-cultures, diversity, if you like.

Our children are inculcated into the broader American culture as into a tribe. We learn the attitude of our culture and its rituals. So, some of our rituals are playing the star spangled banner before football and basketball gaves and saying the pledge of allegiance in schools. I'm not sure where else one might receipt the pledge.

Now, these can become perfunctory. We see ballplayers shifting back and forth, anxious to play; or incomprehensible: I learned the pledge as "one nation invisible" wondering what that meant.

The ultimate question is liberty and sub-culture against being socially compelled to follow our rituals. If liberty is our highest value then we probably wouldn't hold a formal pledge of allegiance before class in the morning. We'd let people say the pledge whenever and whereever they want and however they want.

But liberty is not our highest value. Tribalism is higher.

Mr. baawa
Dr. John W. Baer states: "In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy (Baptist author)disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer."

Your contention is that a religious based organization, The Knights of Columbus, in bringing a proposal to congress, has tried to force their religion upon everyone in the U.S.
Congress passes laws constantly. We have, women's history celebration month, black history month, etc. Congress responds (often) to their constituencies. If you think that bringing proposals to Congress in hopes of getting them passed amounts to "forcing" you are sadly mistaken.
Regarding the Communists, they officially espoused athiesm and their flag was red. Given a choice of "under God" or "under Stalin," it would appear that the majority of the American people (Congress responding to popular demand, not a radical minority)chose well.
If you will re-read the author's article, "Chief Justice Rehnquist gave a great historical account of the many instances where “patriotic invocations of God and official acknowledgments of religion’s role in our Nation’s history” were not only accepted but encouraged. He talked, among other examples, about George Washington’s first inauguration on April 30, 1789,..."
Now if you want to rage on about Christians wanting to foist their religion on everyone and ignore historical precedent, join Ahab on the Pequoid's deck, and mutter in your beard.

If I may, ProfBlog
You inadvertently touch on a point that I make constantly to conservatives on this site, who claim that the government "does things to them," which makes the government socialistic. I point out (as you do about the pledge) that there is a reason that America is a Welfare State and the reason is that the congress "responds" to its constituents. As you note, we say the pledge with "under God" because congress responded to constituents who wanted that.

Dear AndyR
Let's review: A vendetta is, "an often prolonged series of retaliatory, vengeful, or hostile acts or exchange of such acts" (Webster online).
My suggestion that Newdow qualifies for having a vendetta is based, partly, upon the article above. You have little to say about it, whereas I quote it profusely prior to asserting that Newdow does fit the definition. I offered an analogy, comparing Newdow to Captain Ahab in Moby Dick. The captain had an obsession about the white whale and was willing to destroy the entire whaling venture to exact his revenge. I further suggested "Now, a plain reading of this esteemed justice will render your idea of the existence of a Christian vendetta, via the words "under God" in The Pledge, as falling outside of her words, "reasonable observer." Newdow is not a reasonable observer, and your insistence of a vendetta existing smacks of the same irrational paranoia. If you are not a Christian, take comfort in the Justice's words: "or even of religion over non-religion.” If you find no comfort there, then pace the deck with Ahab."

I used the word "vendetta" and you responded that Christians had one against athiests, as evidenced by the inclusion "under God" in The Pledge of Allegiance. Reasonable people (Supreme Court Justices) do not see it that way. Newdow seems to. How about you?
Lastly, you said, "Cool, glad that you said that. Put Coulter, Dinesh D'Souza etc into that bracket then." I'm particularly interested in that reply which suggests, among other things, that vigorous arguments in the marketplace of ideas, that are pro-Christian, are a fly in your ointment. Clearly, your accusation concerning Coulter, D'Souza and "etc.," without any evidence offered, is little more than a rant. Your bias, however, is plain for all to see.

Dear Proud Liberal
Indeed, I did suggest that Congress responds to its constituencies. I did, however, insert the word, "often." I believe that conservatives usually point to acts of Congress that have nothing to do whatsoever with the desire of their constituencies. For example, immigration reform. Politicians, with no term limits, have incentives to pander to the rich and powerful while giving lip service to the constituents. Not to mention their own pet agendas. So, government really does (not always mind you) do things to people. It is not necessarily paranoia on the part of conservatives, though regarding the law of unintended consequences, it pays to be a skeptical conservative about what "elected public servants" are really up to.

You're Forgetting This is About Kids
The arguments against Newdow's lawsuit overlook that this is about whether the Pledge of Allegiance should be allowed to function as a bully pulpit for religion to school children. They display fundamental ignorance about the history and governmental principles of our country: a nation intended as the pre-eminent pluralistic (i.e., secular) nation in the world, the most liberal of any previously known, a democratic constitutional republic dedicated to civil liberties with the specific mandate to protect and promote minority belief.

Back in 1954, it was a concerted effort on the part of various overtly sectarian organizations, primarily the Christian organization, Knights of Columbus, to exploit Cold War paranoia and use McCarthyism to get "under God" inserted in the Pledge in order to further push the country in a theocratic direction. A threatened Congress jumped right on board. Ironically, if anyone had indeed been serious about emphasizing what has, from the time of our Founding, made America unique among nations, different from say, the Soviet Union or the Iranians, then Congress would have changed the Pledge to say, "one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all - regardless of belief".

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." When Congress does exactly that, as it did in 1954* with the sectarian bill that added "under God" to the Pledge, it is nothing more than strict interpretation of the Constitution that says the courts must then declare it void. That is their job description. Nothing activist about it. No vendetta. No personal belief involved. On the contrary, if Congress paid more attention to the Constitution (as should the people who elect the members), judges wouldn't have the nearly workload in rulings over unconstitutional laws and practices.


You're Forgetting This is About Kids II
Culturally, it is no surprise that adding "under God" to the Pledge makes a joke of the word, "indivisible", by explicitly dividing the country and the classroom along lines of religious belief. Hey, at least blacks used to get to ride at the back of the bus. My kids, in public school, get to stand on the curb. It want everyone here to be perfectly clear that these future citizens are offered no equal patriotic opportunity whatsoever. Especially, not one where they get to share their religious view to the whole class every day.

As has been said, removing those two words does not impose atheist belief on anyone. The language would need to be changed to "one nation, that does not believe in a God" to do that. There is a HUGE difference there, folks. Restoring the Pledge by removing "under God" simply brings it back to being neutral - the whole point of the first Amendment and what the Founders, in full conscious spite of their personal religious feelings - intended so as to enable all viewpoints in America to flourish.

No matter the eventual outcome of the upcoming Supreme Court lawsuit over the Constitutionality of conducting the Pledge in the schools, what amazes me is how many so-called patriots can be so strongly in favor of something that is at least questionably constitutional. We can only assume that for some it is because the Pledge plainly reinforces their faith (which is just weak that you would need that). More troublesome is that, for many Americans their religions seem to be more important to them than their patriotism, the unity of their free nation. This, even though it is the Constitution which, in protecting religions from government intrusion in the first place, continues to enable the practice of all faiths.

You're Forgetting This is About Kids II
Culturally, it is no surprise that adding "under God" to the Pledge makes a joke of the word, "indivisible", by explicitly dividing the country and the classroom along lines of religious belief. Hey, at least blacks used to get to ride at the back of the bus. My kids, in public school, get to stand on the curb. It want everyone here to be perfectly clear that these future citizens are offered no equal patriotic opportunity whatsoever. Especially, not one where they get to share their religious view to the whole class every day.

As has been said, removing those two words does not impose atheist belief on anyone. The language would need to be changed to "one nation, that does not believe in a God" to do that. There is a HUGE difference there, folks. Restoring the Pledge by removing "under God" simply brings it back to being neutral - the whole point of the first Amendment and what the Founders, in full conscious spite of their personal religious feelings - intended so as to enable all viewpoints in America to flourish.

No matter the eventual outcome of the upcoming Supreme Court lawsuit over the Constitutionality of conducting the Pledge in the schools, what amazes me is how many so-called patriots can be so strongly in favor of something that is at least questionably constitutional. We can only assume that for some it is because the Pledge plainly reinforces their faith (which is just weak that you would need that). More troublesome is that, for many Americans their religions seem to be more important to them than their patriotism, the unity of their free nation. This, even though it is the Constitution which, in protecting religions from government intrusion in the first place, continues to enable the practice of all faiths.

You're Forgetting This is About Kids II
Culturally, it is no surprise that adding "under God" to the Pledge makes a joke of the word, "indivisible", by explicitly dividing the country and the classroom along lines of religious belief. Hey, at least blacks used to get to ride at the back of the bus. My kids, in public school, get to stand on the curb. It want everyone here to be perfectly clear that these future citizens are offered no equal patriotic opportunity whatsoever. Especially, not one where they get to share their religious view to the whole class every day.

As has been said, removing those two words does not impose atheist belief on anyone. The language would need to be changed to "one nation, that does not believe in a God" to do that. There is a HUGE difference there, folks. Restoring the Pledge by removing "under God" simply brings it back to being neutral - the whole point of the first Amendment and what the Founders, in full conscious spite of their personal religious feelings - intended so as to enable all viewpoints in America to flourish.

No matter the eventual outcome of the upcoming Supreme Court lawsuit over the Constitutionality of conducting the Pledge in the schools, what amazes me is how many so-called patriots can be so strongly in favor of something that is at least questionably constitutional. We can only assume that for some it is because the Pledge plainly reinforces their faith (which is just weak that you would need that). More troublesome is that, for many Americans their religions seem to be more important to them than their patriotism, the unity of their free nation. This, even though it is the Constitution which, in protecting religions from government intrusion in the first place, continues to enable the practice of all faiths.

You're Forgetting This is About Kids III
Sorry. About the multiple posts. Didn't seem to be posting so I re-submitted.

Culturally, it is no surprise that adding "under God" to the Pledge makes a joke of the word, "indivisible", by explicitly dividing the country and the classroom along lines of religious belief. Hey, at least blacks used to get to ride at the back of the bus. My kids, in public school, get to stand on the curb. It want everyone here to be perfectly clear that these future citizens are offered no equal patriotic opportunity whatsoever. Especially, not one where they get to share their religious view to the whole class every day.

As has been said, removing those two words does not impose atheist belief on anyone. The language would need to be changed to "one nation, that does not believe in a God" to do that. There is a HUGE difference there, folks. Restoring the Pledge by removing "under God" simply brings it back to being neutral - the whole point of the first Amendment and what the Founders, in full conscious spite of their personal religious feelings - intended so as to enable all viewpoints in America to flourish.

No matter the eventual outcome of the upcoming Supreme Court lawsuit over the Constitutionality of conducting the Pledge in the schools, what amazes me is how many so-called patriots can be so strongly in favor of something that is at least questionably constitutional. We can only assume that for some it is because the Pledge plainly reinforces their faith (which is just weak that you would need that). More troublesome is that, for many Americans their religions seem to be more important to them than their patriotism, the unity of their free nation. This, even though it is the Constitution which, in protecting religions from government intrusion in the first place, continues to enable the practice of all faiths.

You're Forgetting This is About Kids III
Sorry. About the multiple posts. Didn't seem to be posting so I re-submitted.

That any American can believe that the majority is entitled to ride rough shod over the rights of the minority shows the failure of our educational system to teach constitutional government and to teach the history of civil rights in this country. The Founders Fathers considerable experience with religion and government previous to 1787 led them to mistrust and to separate the two IN SPITE of their personal beliefs. At least, to the extent that you cannot expose children in public school to a declaration of faith.

The intent to establish religion with "under God" in the Pledge has always been clear: '"In signing the bill on June 14, 1954, Flag Day, Eisenhower delighted in the fact that from then on, 'millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town … the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty.' That the nation, constitutionally speaking, was in fact dedicated to the opposite proposition seemed to escape the president." Slate Magazine The Pledge of Allegiance - Why we're not one nation "under God." By David Greenberg June 28, 2002

Read more at: http://members.cox.net/patriotismforall/


One Nation...
...Under "Da Big Daddy!"

Profblog
Thanks for showing that I'm correct. Thanks for admitting that the words "under god" weren't originally in the pledge. Thanks for admitting that a BAPTIST MINISTER wrote the pledge, and as such, one would think that a CHRISTIAN writing the pledge would have written it with "under god" in mind. But he didn't.

The pledge--and the US--survived 60 years without "under god". It can survive those words being taken out.

Or would the US just collapse?

Mr. Baawa
History is history. I mentioned those facts well before you posted. Why don't you respond to what the author of the article asserted, namely, that the Supreme Court Justices find no establishment of a religion with the insertion of the words "under God?"
The U.S. will not collapse with those words omitted. Will you collapse with them in? Or can you bring yourself to even say the Pledge of Allegiance?
If you read my posts, that is what I'm asserting, is that folks like Newdow are unnaturally driven to excise those words from the Pledge. Any reading of the founding history of the U.S., and the preponderance of the writing of the founding fathers, must necessarily note the clear and welcomed assistance of Almighty God in the affairs of men and particularly, America.

HiFi, above seems to want to overlook that too. In the drive for a secular society, one must willingly overlook and minimize the clear facts, that the founding of this society was upon principles grounded in Christianity. To remove that is to deny the foundation itself.

Gotta go. It's been a good thread. God bless America.

Profblog
I remember a USSC decision in a case called "Plessy v Ferguson". You know--the one upholding segregation in state law.

IOW: the USSC has been known to make stupid decisions.

What I'm also saying is that there are some people who have an unnatural fetish for the words "under god", and that since the US was ok for the 60 years without those words in the pledge, and since the christian who wrote the pledge didn't have them in, and since it is an establishment of christianity in the form of a loyalty oath not only to the US but to the christian god, those words should be removed.

But the fetishists don't want that. They want to make people swear allegiance to their god. Sucks to be them.

Mr. bawaa
You assert that: "and since it is an establishment of christianity in the form of a loyalty oath not only to the US but to the christian god, those words should be removed."

Since you are a knight, you are familiar with an oath of fealty. This oath can be made to a king or kingdom. In the case of The Pledge of Allegiance, it is to the "The Flag and to the country for which it stands..." The following sentence structure says, "One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." That phrase is an adjective in nature, describing the nation's attributes that the pledger is pledging to. In no way is anyone pledging to God. Put another way, if you pledge allegiance to Russia, and a descriptive clause follows to describe that Russia, you are still pledging to the country, not the descriptors. Whether that Russia is athiestic or muslim only gives you information regarding the country you are pledging to; you are not pledging to Allah or whatever god is the purported supporting deity.
Also, as I mentioned in a post above, there is no constitutionality concerning The Pledge of Allegiance. The constitutional question arises only if one can construe that this pledge is establishing a religion. Presently, SCOTUS seems to think, "no." As you point out, some decisions, (Plessy, which I loathe, Dred Scott, a real low)are suspect. I doubt, however, that they will mess with The Pledge of Allegiance, because setting such precedent will pave the way for wiping out any and all references to deity in coinage, buildings, etc.
Lastly, you needn't worry that reciting The Pledge of Allegiance qualifies you as a Christian any more than singing The Star Spangled Banner makes you an American.

Dear Hifi
You assert: "The intent to establish religion with "under God" in the Pledge has always been clear: '"In signing the bill on June 14, 1954, Flag Day, Eisenhower delighted in the fact that from then on, 'millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town … the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty.' That the nation, constitutionally speaking, was in fact dedicated to the opposite proposition seemed to escape the president." Slate Magazine The Pledge of Allegiance - Why we're not one nation "under God." By David Greenberg June 28, 2002"
Evidently, they can't read. As I said above to Mr. Bawaa, the construction of the Pledge does not, grammatically speaking, pledge belief in God or fealty to Him. Rather, it pledges to The Flag and the country for which it stands.
If you want to investigate the inseparable facts of faith and our Nation's founding, I refer you to the following link: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1777/fathers.html
Removing those facts and insisting that we could have begun and maintained our country as a purely secular endeavour is like wanting The American Flag, "but just without the red colored thread please."

Profblog
"Clearly, your accusation concerning Coulter, D'Souza and "etc.," without any evidence offered, is little more than a rant."

You need evidence about Coulter and D'Souza trying to press ID on us? Really?

Check out Godless by Coulter or any of the online debates D'Souza has done (youtube will help). Ironically, both or them have 'ranted' at length about it. Have fun professor.

Profblog
"...vigorous arguments in the marketplace of ideas, that are pro-Christian"

If you really thing that's what Coulter offers then I suspect you have read little of her work. And I further suspect that if you believe D'Souza and Coulter contribute in any way to scientific discussions, then you are probably not a real professor. At least not one of biology.

Andy R
If one were to describe the Pledge to somebody learning the Pledge for the first time, phrase by phrase and what each phrase means and represents (which I am sure no teacher has ever done BTW) when they get to the phrase "One Nation Under God" as that is the complete phrase...no comma between the words nation and under...the only clear way to explain it would be to say: "We are a single nation with religious freedom". That's what the phrase means. There would be no other way of explaining it. Saying "We are a single Christian nation" would not a correct interpretation.

As some posters point out we survived almost 60 years without the phrase....YES but we have also survived almost 60 years with the phrase. No difference.

I personally would have no problems changing it were it put to a national democratic vote and the MAJORITY wanted it out. But to change it because one cynical atheist is offended that his Christain daughter might have to recite it in school makes a mockery of our liberty and freedom to the point of absurdity. Change if for the right reasons...not because one man has thorn in his side.

Western bondbeam
"...the only clear way to explain it would be to say: "We are a single nation with religious freedom". That's what the phrase means"

As I understand it, the phrase was put in at the height of the cold war as a kind of defence against the Godless Soviet Union. If that is true, then the interpretation you are giving the phrase is not the correct one.

Profblog
You may not be aware of this, but a loyalty oath (which is what I wrote--perhaps you just wanted to be dishonest and not mention that) can be made to anyone or anything.

Perhaps you forgot that. Or perhaps you just wanted to be dishonest.

And perhaps you've forgotten--again--that the christian who wrote the pledge didn't put the words "under god" in it. Do you think that the US would fall apart if those words were removed? No, you don't. So why are you such a fetishist about those words?

Proud Liberal
No doubt that the way the Pledge is taught to school children it can be percieved as tribal. I tend to lean toward the word ceremonial or customary...even memorial comes to mind. In my recent post to Andy R I question exactly HOW the Pledge is taught. Do children just simply learn the phrases without any context or meaning thrown in behind the phrases? I would say most kids recite it from memory and really have no idea as to the what it is they are actually saying. When explaining the One Nation Under God phrase...I tell kids that it means "we are a single nation with relgious freedom...and then I explain in more detail as to what it means to be a single nation and also what it means to enjoy and have religous freedom.


As far as reciting the pledge, The majority of children (outside of Scouting) probably recite it in school only I imagine. Many cities throughout the US have Memorial Day ceremonies (which incidently many Boy Scout Troops perform color guard ceremonies for the community at large )where it is recited. Also flag burning ceremonies (American Legions and again Boy Scout Troops do these community services) to properly dispose of US Flags that are tattered and worn out. I am sure there are more but those are the times that I have been exposed (for lack of a better word) to the Pledge.


Andy R
"As I understand it, the phrase was put in at the height of the cold war as a kind of defence against the Godless Soviet Union. If that is true, then the interpretation you are giving the phrase is not the correct one"
----------
This is part of it's history yes and not to be ignored however I see no conflict. Today we live in a different world then in 1950. The phrase is generic on purpose so that it can be timeless in it's nature to adapt to world changes. Again...I would not oppose it being removed if a majority of US citizens wanted it changed...just do it for the right reasons and not because some guy has his underwear bunched up in a wad.

Intent, Sacrilege and Kids
Intent:
Profblog, one test of the validity of a law is the letter, but another is intent.

When the Knights of Columbus pushed "under God" on townships and states throughout America and then on the United States congress, and then when congress added it to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954, the intent all along was to put religion in public school. (Apparently very important to start indoctrinating kids as kindergartners that there is or used to be god.) The legislative history of the 1954 act stated that the hope was to "acknowledge the dependence of our people and our Government upon … the Creator … [and] deny the atheistic and materialistic concept of communism."

To make it perfectly clear, Eisenhower signed the bill into law with the statement: "From this day forward, the millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty."

Remember, This is About Kids:
Many people of minority faith vividly remember feeling shamed, isolated, confused and coerced as children in American public schools by the daily recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance that plainly presumes a god foreign to the worldview of their families. We try mightily in our family not to make our elementary school kids feel the same way. Folks, take your cultural wars elsewhere, please. Putting kids on the front lines of the fight is cowardly.

Pledge is Sacrilege:
I want to question so-called Christians here about their support of the Pledge.

Two reasons to oppose:

1) Pledging to a flag representing a nation is idolatry (Seventh Day Adventists already got the Supreme Court to agree to that).

2) There is no greater instance of taking the Lord's name in vain that the daily mindless repetition of school children.

In 1992, the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the phrase “under God,” had been rendered meaningless and sapped of any religious significance by repetitive use. The court found it was only a hackneyed slogan, not a religious utterance. This is a way to honor one's religion, by foisting it on kids to trivialize?

Hifi
As a Christian, I do not oppose the removal of Under God from the Pledge as long as it is done for right reasons.

I suppose one could see it as idolotry if a person lived breathed and ate the pledge and placed it higher in importance than Jesus, family and people. It really depends on where they place it in their list of importance. I would say tv and dare I say it the internet is a much higher idol than reciting the pledge. It's where people place their priority.

Taking the Lord's name in vain? In repeating the pledge without understanding or context of it's meaning then yes that sounds awfully vain but I don't know of too many people that say it to mock God, the Flag or our nation. Nobody is using the Pledge to honor one's religion either (at least that I am aware of).
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