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Tuesday, January 22, 2008
Mario Diaz :: Townhall.com Columnist
Constitutional Blunder
by Mario Diaz
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Though some may disagree, the 1973 Roe v. Wade[1] decision has to be the greatest constitutional blunder of our time.  It is the quintessential example of judicial activism, and it has to be the greatest exercise of (to use Justice White’s phrase) “raw judicial power” ever seen, resulting in the death of close to 50 million lives.

You would think that a decision of such impact would be closely studied and scrutinized by us as a country.  However, a recent Roe I.Q. Test created by Concerned Women for America (CWA), Focus on the Family, The Alliance Defense Fund and the Family Research Council, and taken by more than 40,000 people thus far, reveals that the American people are still ignorant as to the meaning of the decision. 

A recent discussion with an attorney friend revealed his mistaken belief that Roe allowed abortion only in the 1st trimester.  Sadly, he’s not an exception.  The average score for the Roe test was 59 percent — an F!  That’s even worse when you realize that 70 percent of the 40,000 plus participants thought that abortion should be illegal except for the life of the mother or illegal in all circumstances.

So let’s give it a try, let’s take a quick look at Roe again.

This will come as a shock to the millions who still believe that abortion is illegal except to save the life of the mother, but Roe invalidated a law that said just that.  The Texas statutes at issue made it a crime to “procure an abortion …” except with respect to “an abortion procured or attempted by medical advice for the purpose of saving the life of the mother.”  The statutes were first enacted in 1854.

Jane Roe sought a declaratory judgment that the statutes were unconstitutional and an injunction restraining their enforcement.  Roe was pregnant and wanted to terminate her pregnancy by an abortion performed by a competent, licensed physician, but she was unable to get a “legal” abortion in Texas because her life did not appear to be threatened by the continuation of her pregnancy.  She claimed the statutes were unconstitutionally vague and that they abridged her constitutional right to privacy.

Justice Blackmun, writing for the majority, acknowledges that “The Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy,” but he recalls that they have read it into the Constitution on a recent line of cases that came before Roe, some of the more interesting being Griswold v. Connecticut[2] and Eisenstadt v. Baird.[3]  He writes:

This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment’s concept of personal liberty… as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment’s reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman’s decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy.[4]

Why?  Because they say so.

But what about the rights of the child in the womb?  Well, Justice Blackmun very interestingly, after acknowledging at the beginning of the opinion the “vigorous opposing views, even among physicians,” goes on to proclaim from his high mountain that the unborn “fetus” is not a “person,” so they do not enjoy the right to life.  The Court acknowledges that “[i]f this suggestion of personhood is established, [Roe’s] case, of course, collapses, for the fetus’ right to life would then be guaranteed specifically be the [Fourteenth] Amendment.”  Too bad he’s not actually a person, though.

The Court did say that the mother’s privacy right “cannot be said to be absolute.”  “A State may properly assert important interests in safeguarding health, in maintaining medical standards, and in protecting potential life.”  Therefore, limiting the now fundamental right to an abortion can only be justified by a “compelling state interest.”

In any other case, the Supreme Court’s “jurisdiction” might have ended there, answering the question that was actually presented to them: “Are the Texas statutes constitutional?”  But the Court had been overstepping its boundaries for so long it barely skipped a beat, making blatant policy decisions part of constitutional law.  Before, the Justices would try to disguise it as being read into the Constitution, but the journey on which they decided to embark went far beyond any disguise.

Almost flippantly, like a child makes up rules for a new game, the Supreme Court established that:

(a)    For the stage prior to approximately the end of the first trimester, the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman’s attending physician.

(b)   For the stage subsequent to approximately the end of the first trimester, the state, in promoting its interest in the health of the mother, may if it chooses, regulate the abortion procedure in ways that are reasonably related to maternal health.

(c)    For the stage subsequent to viability, the State in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother.[5]

It is this “life or health of the mother” exception, left open-ended by the Court, that has been given an expansive definition in the companion case to Roe, Doe v. Bolton,[6] making it abortion-on-demand for all intents and purposes.  When the “health” of the mother can be her “psychological” well-being because she won’t be able to graduate, or go to the prom, then anything can be an excuse for an abortion.

If you can’t believe the blatant disregard for the structure set up by our founding fathers, where these types of policy decisions are given to the people through their elected officials, then you are not alone.  Justice Rehnquist in his dissent stated:

The decision here to break pregnancy into three distinct terms and to outline the permissible restrictions the State may impose in each one, for example, partakes more of judicial legislation than it does of a determination of the intent of the drafters of the Fourteenth Amendment.[7]

Of course, they weren’t concerned with what the drafters intended.  If they had been, then they would have noticed that these laws were enacted before the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868, some as early as 1821, and there was no issue at all with them.  Justice Rehnquist points out that there were “at least 36 laws enacted by state or territorial legislatures limiting abortion.”  He accurately points out that “[t]here apparently was no question concerning the validity of this provision or any of the other state statutes when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted.”[8]

Apparently the Amendment had “evolved” throughout the years to include it.  Why you ask?  Well, because they say so, why else?

This January 22, as we remember the greatest Constitutional blunder of our time, I hope we refresh our memories as to what we are really talking about.  These are not “fetuses” aborted before they were “persons” in the first trimester of pregnancy because the life of the mother was in danger.  These are close to 50 million children we have lost due to our own failure as a society to stand up for righteousness and justice. 

And Justice ultimately comes from God’s hands, not the Supreme Court’s.



[1] Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973).
[2] Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479 (1965).
[3] Eisenstadt v. Baird, 405 U.S. 438 (1972).
[4] Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113, 153 (1973).
[5] Id. at 164.
[6] Doe v. Bolton, 410 U.S. 179 (1973). 
[7] Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113, 174 (1973).
[8] Id. at 177.

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About The Author

Mario Diaz is the Policy Director for Legal Issues at Concerned Women for America.

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50 million less Americans is short-sight
That Roe has insured that the population of the US is 50 million short of what it would have been, is a bit short-sighted. Those first aborted babies would have now been in their forties, some would have not only had children , but grandchildren by now. When you abort a baby, you not only kill it, but completely sever their entire branch of decendents.

The hole in our society left by "mothers" who kill thier own babies had been filled today by about 50 million illegal immigrants or their children.

Robert
Your case of BDS and its effects on your logic is staggering. How in the hell do you manage to turn a 1973 SCOTUS decision into a Bush comment?

....and since you brought it up, if you do five minutes of research you will discover it was the Florida court that attempted to ignore their own state laws. Not to mention, the record still shows Bush winning the state....even after 58 recounts.

Bush V Gore
was not bad law. The SCOTUS merely invalidiated the actions of the Florida supreme court, which had, in the interest of Democrat cronyism, completely ignored Florida state election law. It was Gore who tried to steal the election. SCOTUS acted to prevent him from using his pals on the Florida Supreme Court to do so.

Jane Roe endorses Ron Paul
Norma McCorvey, the famous "Roe" in the Roe vs. Wade case, is repentant of her position in the abortion case and is now a pro-life advocate. She is endorsing Ron Paul for president today.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/01/roe-v-wade- advo.html

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZDllNTMyNGY5MTg1MW YyYzVmN2EwY2MxZjc1YWI2ZmI=

Ron Paul's pro life stance is impeccable. He is the only candidate that is proposing to end the supreme court's Roe vs. Wade abortion ruling immediately. He has proposed just such a bill in congress (110th Congress, HR300). Ask your legislator why they haven't co-sponsored the bill and helped bring it to a vote if they say they are pro-life. Ron Paul has also proposed a bill to define human life as beginning at conception. As an OB/GYN, Dr. Paul knows that human life begins at conception. This bill will clarify this question in federal law. Additionally, Ron Paul will most certainly appoint judges that will uphold the constitution.

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/?tag=Abortion

Good column
50 million plus souls and counting. I helped murder one. This is a public prayer for my soul, her soul, and our nations' soul.

That which we do to the least of His, we are doing to Him. Why should we be given mercy when we show so little? Expect the fundamentalists to strike a terrible blow against us in the near future.

Awesome!
Great post Mario- Yes so true I am thankful for your column

pro choice
I'm pro choice but anti Roe v Wade.

It is not permissible to hallucinate rights into the Constitution in order to short circuit representative government.

Public policy issues like abortion are for the states to decide.

I find it astounding that virtually all pro-choice people have no problem whatsoever with abuse of the Constitution in order to short circuit the right of the people, through their elected representatives, to create public policy.


For these people to whine about Bush short circuiting the rights of the accused with respect to suspected terror suspects is pure hypocrisy.

Those who advocate a "living constitution" are setting up the ingredients for an authoritarian dictatorship.

Fiddler

You are right that the Florida Supreme Court abused its authority by meddling in the 2000 election.

But that didn't give the US Supreme Court to do likewise.


The Constitution puts the authority for disputed elections in the hands of state legislatures and the Congress.

Ultimately, I believe the Florida legislature and the US Congress would have intervened.

They might have even needed to put some Florida Supreme Court justices in prison if the court had persisted in its effort to stage a coup d' etat in the United States.

Which they certainly could have done if it had been necessary, the judiciary has no army.

If a tree falls in the forrest
If a tree falls in the forrest and no one hears it, did it really fall?

If a pro-life article posted on a pro-life web site is only read by those who agree with it, does it matter?

And for the record, the Roe IQ statistics are meaningless unless you can prove the sample is not self-selected, that's just basic statistics 101. All the "facts" your reported is just so much hot air.

My guess would be that 99% of those who took the test came from links off they conservative sites mentioned who you mentioned are sponsoring it.

You use the term "American" but in reality the group of people who took the test are far from representative of America as a whole.


bot_feeder
You said
"You are right that the Florida Supreme Court abused its authority by meddling in the 2000 election.
But that didn't give the US Supreme Court to do likewise."
They didn't. The U.S. Supreme Court sent the case back to the Florida Supreme Court and told them to follow the law.
The U.S. Supreme Court would not have gotten involved had the Fl. Supreme Court not circumvented the law.

tree falling
I always thought it goes this way....

If a tree falls in the forest, do the other trees laugh?

Great, timely article, thanks
Life begins at conception, now with the latest technology, science, also backs the pro-life stand, but unfortunately, the facts are still being suppressed.
The Fact, has nothing to do with freedonm of choice, and has everything to do with the right to life of the unborn.
When we play with words, and play politics with human emotions, instead of facts, we trample on human rights.

I disagree...
marystella, human life begins when an individual becomes aware of one's existence. Human life begins when one begins to question the nature of him or herself and the environment he or she is in. What makes one human is the ability to reason, think logically, and develop good problem solving capabilities. That is what makes a human.

Before that we are just another primate. No more and no less.

Roe v. Wade is sound and straightforward
Mr. Diaz's cavalier characterizations notwithstanding, the Supreme Court offered sound legal reasons typical of judicial decision-making in Roe v. Wade.

Judges commonly are called upon to decide cases that the Constitution, statutes, or regulations address, if at all, only with general principles or rules that do not prescribe particular results in particular situations. That, indeed, is one reason we have judges. Here, the court did what it was called upon to do--and read the 9th and 14th Amendments to encompass a right of personal privacy (hardly a wild-eyed notion) and concluded that that right at the very least encompasses one's own body (again, hardly a wild-eyed notion). Indeed, it's hard to conceive of a right to privacy that wouldn't extend at least that far.

The court's discussion of the several stages of pregnancy and the relative interests of a mother and state during each stage arises from the court's effort to balance their respective interests (again, hardly a wild-eyed notion). Such balancing is commonly required of judges.

The most wild-eyed aspects of Roe v. Wade are the claims of those unhappy with the result.

Social Aspect
The abortion issue should be discussed on a social level as well. This is so when considering it to be such a line in the sand for so many liberal yappers. I am in the science industry and happen to be one of only 3 or 4 conservatives in the entire group (some sarcasm, only some). Every time I meet a new liberal at a function, I first have to hear about how much an idiot GW is (even though he outsmarted the elitists of this country 2 times, Mr. Soros), and then I have to hear about how important the right to choose is, ie abortion rights. If I have learned anything about liberals it is this, they like to have their cake and it it too. What I mean is, these same people are always yammering about the right to choose, not only for adults, but also for young 13 year old teenagers, but at the same time an 18 year old is not competent enough to volunteer for military service. Also, on that same note, libs like to scoff at the death penalty for grown adults that have killed, beaten, raped young people and gotten caught, but they can't find it in themselves to stand up for a fetus that has a fully functional organ system at a very early stage of development. I do not understand you folks, you are very strange.

To the Author...
"And Justice ultimately comes from God’s hands, not the Supreme Court’s."

Sorry, but there is no God. Its a make believe myth no different than Zeus, Odin, and Osiris. Sad, but true.

KoB
It all boils down to this: Who has the right to dictate and control a woman's reproductive system. Should it be controlled by the government or the individual woman. I say the individual woman. But if you anti-freedom anti-choicers think that it is the government's job to dictate and control every aspect of a woman's life then you aren't for small government, but for tyranny. Freedom means choice.

Sad, but true.

Technicalities Don't Make for Justice
All the technical arguments made by pro-choice advocates such as the fetus is not a protectible "human" life or a "person" under the 14th Amendment sound eerily like the technical arguments successfully made in the Dred Scott case. We now look back in collective horror at how the Supreme Court and slave owners could use technical arguments such as "property rights" to determine that one person could lawfully own another. I predict that in a few decades, after Roe is overturned, Americans will look back, once again aghast that the Supreme Court could have used technicalities such the non-existent "peunbra of rights" that include the nascent right of "privacy" to determine that a mother could lawfully kill her child. Just think of what the Founding Fathers would say if they were here. After all, the "right to life" is the very first enumerated "right" in the Declaration. A fetus has no "right" to be born because it never becomes a "person" because the mother unilaterally decides to kill it? That's like saying the Menendez brothers deserve sympathy because, after all, they are now orphans - yes, but because they killed their parents. Strange logic, indeed.

Bad Supreme Court decisions
The recent Kelo opinion is just as appalling, on a different level, as is Roe v. Wade. In both cases, the black-robed b*s*a*ds did whatever they felt like and then tried to cloak themselves in the Constitution. Remember, the Left thinks we're too stupid to know what's going on.

Mike, yikes dude!

to mike:
"Human life begins to question the nature of him or herself and the environment he or she is in. What makes one human is the ability to reason, think logically, and develop good problem solving capabilities."

so by that same logic you would condone euthanasia for the seriously mentally ill, comatose, elderly who lost their minds...etc? if yes, how would you know when they dont have human characteristics anymore, and when they lose these characteristics you can then classify them as not human, therefore a choice of early termination is granted huh...

how do you know that a fetus has no concept of human qualities? better yet... when a baby is just born does it have those human qualities u pointed out before vs when the baby was still in the womb seconds from arrival?

what a terrible way to classify humans! you should be ashamed of yourself mike!

Overturn It! Abortion Continues!
I wish they would just overturn the damn thing so the fundies can stop crying about it. All overturning it would do is outlaw it in SOME states. In the majority of the states, and more importantly in the LARGE states, it will still be legal. So what if Mississippi or Louisiana outlaws abortion? Who cares? It'll still be obtainable in New York, California, Mass, Oregon, Florida, etc. Do you think the North East will EVER ban abortion?

Overturning Roe will just be a HUGE financial boom for the liberal states in abortion tourism. The moment it's overturned, companies will spring up overnight to provide people from backwards states with "abortion arrangements and accomodations".

No pie in the sky ammendment will EVER even get out of the congress, much less to the voters. When abortion tourism becomes a cash cow for the liberal states it'll be even LESS likely to ever get out of congress.

Forget about abortion. It will NEVER go away!

Mike
You say; "human life begins when an individual becomes aware of one's existence. Human life begins when one begins to question the nature of him or herself and the environment he or she is in. What makes one human is the ability to reason, think logically, and develop good problem solving capabilities. That is what makes a human."

You have just declared that infants, toddlers, some of the severely handicapped, persons in reversible comas and elderly people with dementia and many other are not human beings worthy of the right to life. Pretty scary.

Perspectives
Roe v. Wade and Griswold before it were bad rulings. About construction, Thomas Jefferson had this to say
:
When an instrument admits two constructions, the one safe, the other dangerous, the one precise, the other indefinite, I prefer that which is safe & precise. I had rather ask an enlargement of power from the nation, where it is found necessary, than to assume it by a construction which would make our powers boundless. Our peculiar security is in possession of a written Constitution. Let us not make it a blank paper by construction.
:
In other words, an enlargement of federal power, as the court did with the right to privacy, should be settled by the people through legislation. In this case the federal government took power from the states.
:
To the issue of life: How do those who defend Roe v. Wade on stare decisis respond to the fact for nearly 800 years it was recognized that at quickening (about 15 weeks) killing a fetus is a form of homicide (see http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/tay/tay_03foundingfather .html)?
:
Recap: For the Roe decision the court had to ignore 800 years of precedent to find a fetus didn't have the rights of a person. To do otherwise would be to ignore an inconvenient fact taht the fetus' right to life would trump a mother's right to liberty. The also had to encroach upon state's rights and expand the power of the federal against the advice of the likes of Thomas Jefferson. That's a bad decision.
:
see http://www.nationalreview.com/levin/levin200503140754.asp

Forgiveness
2spothipshot asked for forgiveness at 3:40 pm.

I'm sure you are forgiven.

God loves you.


Plain old ordinary judicial reasoning
As some readers have pointed out, the decision-making in Roe v. Wade is just plain old ordinary judicial reasoning. Judges do it, out of necessity, every day in the performance of their duties. Roe v. Wade balances the privacy rights of the mother and the interests of the state. Lots of legal decisions balance opposing claims. Widespread dissatisfaction with this basic aspect of judicial decision-making reflects widespread ignorance on the part of the American public.

The Court had before it the concept, based on its reasoning in several earlier cases, that the Constitution protected "privacy rights." On this basis, the question in Roe could be framed as one concerning the nature and extent of such rights, when balanced against other, legitimate considerations.

Many conservatives like to argue that there are no "privacy rights" in the Constitution. I urge a little caution in thinking this belief through. If Americans do not have any such thing as constitutionally protected privacy rights (and remember, the nature, scope, and limits of such rights are themselves the object of judicial making--they're not carved in stone) then so much the worse for the Constitution.

Actually, most Americans do want their judicial principles and definitions of rights to be carved in stone. Law doesn't work that way, and never has.

KOB
Dude...

It's a life, a baby! Abortion terminates that life. 50 million lives have been taken, the vast majority of them as a means of BIRTH CONTROL, and NOT because of rape, incest, or because the mother's life was in danger!

Blood has been shed, and someone will be held accountable...

Suffer little children...
Most of my Christian friends tell me that the pre-born who are aborted are now happy and smiling in Heaven, saved, in the presence of sweet Jesus. Who loves, welcomes and cherishes them as they come unto him there. But at the same time, they grieve them (or so they say) although they never knew them or loved them and suffered no loss at Heaven's gain.

Is it possible that abortionists are "saving", in the eternal heavenly sense, more innocents than are Christians?

Judicial reasoning, eh?
Gestell writes:

"Roe v. Wade balances the privacy rights of the mother and the interests of the state."

...And to hell with the child, right??

Shelama
I agree with the premise that those babies are now in heaven (though some Christians would disagree), but that doesn't make the act of taking that life any less wrong.

I don't go along with the last statement you make because those abortionists don't have what you suggest on their minds.

When I consider the incredible wanton taking of life that's been perpetrated since Roe v Wade, I'm reminded of the Canaanite practice of child sacrifice to the god Molech...God didn't like that a bit...

Gestell
It seems clear to me that it is incontrovertibly self-evident that the right to life always trumps the right to privacy. The law routinely invades our privacy for much less weighty reasons.

The fundamental question is not, therefore, whether or not we have a right to privacy but whether or not the unborn is a human being. If the unborn is a human being, the mother has no more right to kill it than I have to kill my two-year old in the privacy of my closet.

Mike
Why do I get the feeling that somewhere there is a child for whom you are not paying support?

Curious
How did the 2000 election get in to this?

Sorry, but SCOTUS told SCOFL to back and read their job description.

Please stop beating that extremely dead equine!

I make no apologies.
It is my view on it. If I become so infirm that I cannot function mentally as a human being I do hope someone will be humane enough end my suffering. I had a grandfather who died while suffering from Alzheimer's. I saw how much he suffered from that disease. It took the very essence of what made him a human being and left him nothing but an empty shell. Without our minds, our intellect, we are nothing more than animals.

And Katy, I have no children nor will I ever have any children. If I did, I would take responsibility for them for that is the proper thing to do for I know what it is like to be fatherless and not have that level of support while growing up. That is one thing I would not put any other child through.


Just to clarify...
I am pro-choice because I firmly believe that this is a woman's issue and I am a man. It is the woman who has to go through the process of child birth, not a man, and because of this no man has the right to dictate what a woman can or cannot do with her own body. I am not pro-abortion. In fact I also believe that abortion should be the final option but again, I am a man and I am not going to tell what a woman can or cannot do with her own body.

If that woman chooses to keep the child or place it up for adoption, that is fine with me. If she decides to have an abortion that is also fine with me. It is a moral decision that the woman has to deal with based on her own life experiences and she should be allowed to make the decision that is right for her and her beliefs.

The freedom of choice also means we have the right to make the wrong choice. I don't need the government to dictate to me, or to a woman, or to anyone else what we can and cannot choose to do with our lives.

Sometimes the right choice for one is the wrong choice for another, and to try to take away that choice is a step towards tyranny.

KOB
You're kidding, right? The fact that life is being taken connotes nothing fallacious. The fact that a majority of those abortions are conducted as a matter of convenience (your words, not mine) is pretty much a fact, too, so quit trying to shove your high and mighty logic (or whatever you want to call it) down our throats!

...And I've heard that Baal worshipers were real intellectuals, too...

...repent...

ex-Wyomingite
"The foes of abortion have had since 1973, fully thirty four years now, to amend the Constitution of the United States to overcome Roe v. Wade ... "

Thirty years is a long time, but how long did it take abolitionists to convince America that blacks were in fact human beings entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?


You say: "In the final analysis, like it or not, man is born of woman, and she will forever have power over that process no matter what delusion of control outside forces imagine they have imposed upon her will."

This may be a good argument for birth control. Pro-lifers simply object to taking the life of an innocent human child simply because she is in the way.
















Thirty years is a long time, but how long did it take abolitionists to convince America that blacks were in fact human beings entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?


You say: "In the final analysis, like it or not, man is born of woman, and she will forever have power over that process no matter what delusion of control outside forces imagine they have imposed upon her will."

This may be a good argument for birth control. Pro-lifers simply object to taking the life of an innocent human child simply because she is in the way.

Sorry Ex-Wyomingite Crazy Post
"The foes of abortion have had since 1973, fully thirty four years now, to amend the Constitution of the United States to overcome Roe v. Wade ... "

Thirty years is a long time, but how long did it take abolitionists to convince America that blacks were in fact human beings entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

You say: "In the final analysis, like it or not, man is born of woman, and she will forever have power over that process no matter what delusion of control outside forces imagine they have imposed upon her will."

This may be a good argument for birth control. Pro-lifers simply object to taking the life of an innocent human child simply because she is in the way.




The freedom to choose
sounds like a good thing, unless you consider that it's really about the right to choose whether someone else lives or dies.

So the key must be not to consider.

Mike
Stop being a PUTZ. You've let someone pwhip you into believing that because you're a man you can't have an opinion about this?
Good grief. You need spinoplasty.

Mike, respectfully,
I disagree too, I am not a primeate. Sorry to see yourself that way.
I am the result of Almighty God's creation, He Willed and I became into being.
Psalsms(139)13- For Thou didst form my inward parts; thou didst knot me together in my mother's womb. 14 - I praise thee, for thou art fearful and wonderful, Wonderful are thy works,
Thou knowest me right well; my frame was not hidden from thee, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in depths of the earth.
You can tell the baby's gender by 5 - 9 days of conception. 2 weeks the baby sends existance message. 21 days baby's heartbeat detected. 42 days brainwaves measured. 10 days baby can swallow.

It's a moral decision
None of us can make a judgement on the right or wrong of it, there is only one who judges. It is a choice, either way, that cannot be undone.

Who's protecting who?
(from above columns' quote of Justice Blackmun)"the state, in promoting its interest in the health of the mother, may if it chooses, REGULATE the abortion procedure"

That should scare the pro-death penalty for babies side to, uh,"self awareness" to quote "Mike". Us mean and prudent pro-lifers only want you to be accountable to your responsibilities as a child of God -accept for our nonbelievers, they just want you to stop killing babies- so, in our world, you could self regulate and still be okay. The way the above quote reads, "the STATE" has the right to do what "it chooses" to REGULATE the abortion procedure, not (necessarily) only allow for it. You should hope Roe is reversed because, in the perfect world of Mrs. Clinton, the abortion procedure may need to be regulated against YOUR will, and not just the babys'(No matter what "Mike" thinks about what makes one human, as a father of 2, I can tell you, they are born with a fully developed will and they exert it).

Of course, they exert their will IN the womb as well, but those lacking imagination are too busy insuring their slaughter to realize that, self evident, fact. Oh and thank you for the kind words bigfootbob.

ex-Wyomingite
Don't forget that the American abolitionist movement was the offspring of the British abolitionist movement that began no later than 1772. There was also a rather "significant catalyst" to emancipation in the 1860s if I am not mistaken. And of course the fourteenth amendment was not ratified until 1868. Taking all things into consideration, the whole process was rather more than thirty years.

But, let's say you are correct and abolition was accomplished in thirty years, does it follow that if abortion is the taking of an innocent human life that it should cease to be an injustice after thirty years?

God is hope.
Those of us who know that God is real and fear Him also believe His Word...the bible. "If God is for us, so who can be against us?"
IIChron 7.14 is also true and the hope for any believer and our nation. The spirit of hell that is in the Godless will never, ever repent. God will help us if we repent and He promised to heal our nation. This is underway in the lives of many believers and is gaining more and more momentum.
Just as in the past, the prophets of Baal declare that they are right and the God of Abraham is a liar. They got their heads handed to them then and will again if they refuse to repent....(guaranteed, Mike, and the rest like him). God is the one who declares the sanctity of life and that we are made in the image of Him. True christians will never defy God and condone killing of the innocent. We must pray for God forgive us as we have let so much of the country become dominated by the wicked. If God doesn't move by His power and take America back to the moral high ground then it will not happen. Selfishness is killing America from within; selfless Spirit of Christ can only stop the assault and restore.

To ex-Wyomingite
I am proud to be progeny of abolitionist stock. It was my forefathers and mothers that stood by their convictions and faith, supported the under ground railroad, and lived generation after generation in the same Country that finally rid itself of slavery. The Democratic Party fought the abolitionists and victory probably seemed lost. But they persevered. My ancestors eventually formed the Republican Party and promoted and elected Lincoln. My ancestors fought in the Civil War for the North. No matter how convulsed today’s historians would reflect it, the Civil War was all about slavery. After the end of the Civil War, my ancestors worked to pass and ratify the 13th Amendment.

I am proud to stand firmly against abortion for this point and this point alone; a women’s right to choose does not supersede an unborn child’s right to live. When our government sanctions this act of murder (much as it once sanctioned slavery) we must all stand in opposition or be considered complicit in the act.

To answer your unasked question; we are prepared to fight this in this Country until hell freezes over.

Robert, KOB
and you other scumbags, enjoy your little corner in hell, along with Justice Blackmun.

There was a man
that shot and killed an abortionist (a 'doctor' that kills babies in the womb). There was a great crowd at the courthouse when a reporter asked a bystander 'What do you think of the man that shot the doctor?' The man said...

'I believe he is pro-choice'

There was a man
that shot and killed an abortionist (a 'doctor' that kills babies in the womb). There was a great crowd at the courthouse when a reporter asked a bystander 'What do you think of the man that shot the doctor?' The man said...

'I believe he is pro-choice'

The Good Fight
Re ex-Wyo 7:38pm
"The issue has engendered murder and mayhem"

Why do you suppose this is so? Murder is the killing of the innocent. There's the murder for you, aborting the little people, those tiny human beings, the child in the womb.
Mayhem? Sure, without respect for life of fellow humans a reasoning society can only continue on in mayhem or repent and correct this horrible pastime. The pro-life movement has not merely struggled to overturn the law. They are actively involved in healing the wound which the Court in Roe v Wade imposed on our nation. They help the woman who needs help through her pregnancy and beyond, as well as the one who's suffering from the damage done to her because her baby was killed. They help the fathers. They help their neighbor, our fellow citizens, their little babies, preborn or postborn. You may look in your local phone book and find sources for abortion alternatives, call most any church in America or look on the internet for pro-life sites. This issue has brought out anything but mayhem in the conservative pro-life movement. They will not tolerate murder of abortionists. They love them and have found out that love has been a much more effective source of stopping them from killing little babies in the womb. Perhaps you'd like to see the stories of former abortionists who are now actively involved in promoting the pro-life position. Go to any pro-life website and look for the links. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands who will assure you, as Dr. Bernard Nathanson has, that preborn babies are worth protecting from that horrible business they once practiced.

Medved Fan
Do you really know what your guy's about? Dead-Cred, as I call him, is pro gay adoption OVER loving mothers or fathers. Not to mention: pro amnesty for ALL of the illegals: He called persecutor Fitzgerald "an American hero" on the day he pilloryed Scooter Libby: He won't even mention the many judges sacrificed for benefit of McCains' "Gang of 14": He regularly praises hate filled extremists like Jaff Sadeki etc.

Dead-Cred is dangerous because he's so right on some things, and so very, very left on so many others, he almost sounds reasonable. But, maybe you already know all of that. Just thought I'd mention it.

Mike
Wow. Last week, my M-I-L was comatose. We called in the family. Today she crawled out of bed. If we'd killed her last week, would my son be able to hug her this week? Or tell her about his baseketball game?

Or how about my step daughter, who's IQ is low enough that she's never had "the ability to reason, think logically, and develop good problem solving capabilities", although she is "aware of her existence." So, will her "human life begin when she begins to question the nature of...herself and the environment...she is in"? That COULD happen, some day. She's only 31.

Are your qualifications "and" or "or"? How CAN I figure out when I'm justified in killing her? She holds down a job, but by one of your qualifications, she's not even human, because she definitely doesn't question anything, and she's never had the ability to think logically, nor develop problem solving capabilities. (Come to think of it, this sounds like a few posters on this board!)

Maybe you're not as qualified as you think to give such dogmatic statements.

Wow.

Mikes premise
is the same as Adolph Hitler's and his mentor,
Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood.
That was to rid the world of useless eaters, and
especially in Maggies case anyway, those whose ancestors were transported from Africa. Which is
quite interesting since the DemonRat party supports abortion on demand, (Obama hasn't a problem with infanticide) and their descendants
vote almost as one for the DemonRat candidates and at the same time, most are in Church everytime the doors open.
It's useless to argue with the Mike's of this world, they are self absorbed and using woman's right to choose canard is their way out of any responsibilities.
I'm a battle scarred pro lifer and I've come to realize that we will not overturn this human sacrifice until we have a change in the publics heart. A turning back to God for this country.
It doesn't matter what the Mike's believe, there is a Holy God, and He WILL NOT BE MOCKED. There is forgiveness, I've met many WEBA's Women Exploited By Abortion, whose hearts are broken
but have found peace and healing and forgiveness
in Jesus.

Michigan's Governor supports Hillary..

Going on 6 years now... Michigan's Democrat Governor has held up the state budget over her demand for...

State-funding for welfare abortions.

She has argued repeatedly that poor Black women must have abortion on demand? But, she doesn't mind opposing abortions in "lighter-skinned" neighborhoods based on her Catholic faith?

Those Liberals... Good Shepherds of the Babes :)


2spothipshot
Ya know... I read Townhall nightly, but rarely comment. I think most of the time, arguing with libs is throwing pearls to swine. You cannot change an emotional position with logic and reason. My profession (mechanical engineering) is extremely logic oriented. The word "feel" never crosses my lips unless I feel cold or hungry. I realize there is no victor when arguing affinitiy laws with the warm fuzzy feeling of the color pink.

A long time ago (the very first time I posted a comment on TH) I posted a comment on a Michael Medved article. I picked the name Medved Fan for that response only. I comment so rarely, that I have not pursued the method (if there is one) of changing your moniker.

Now that I am on this rant, I do not believe we can win arguments with liberals. We do not process information the same. We would have to make emotional appeals; and we (Conservatives) fall too easily for their line of arguement (i.e. Hate Crimes? - this attaches an emotion to the purpose of a crime instead of rationalality. This legislation was not made to appeal to the logic in us all). Remember... When emotion or passion is high, logic is low. And likewise, when logic is high, emotion is low. Liberals and Conservatives cannot communicate with one another.

Like you, I agree with Medved most of the time. Sometimes, I find some of his positions way out therre. If I wasn't so lazy and posted more often, I would probably worry about changing my moniker.

Knight of blahblah
KnoB: "There is no hell, CT"

Actually there is.... reading YOUR gibberish!! Hell on earth!! Heh. Get a life!

Hitler and abortion???
Check this out:
"When the Nazis came to power in 1933 one of the first acts Hitler did was to legalize abortion. By 1935 Germany with 65 million people was the place where over 500,000 abortions were being performed each year. Although Hitler and his government encourged Aryan women to produce a lot of children, he left the matter of abortion and all its facets in the hands of a decidely pro- abortion medical establishment. Even in the midst of Nazi propaganda aimed at increasing the Aryan population, scores of Aryan women still chose to abort their unborn children. The medical publication Deutsches Aerzleblatt reported the abortions in Germany each year reached a half-million.

Further, a Nazi decree of October 19, 1941 established abortion on demand as the official policy of Poland. Hitler, however, expressed dissatisfaction with this policy. Abortion, he believed, should NOT be limited to Poland. He therefore ordered that abortion be expanded to all populations under the control of the "Ministry of the Occupied Territories of the East."

On July 22, 1942, the Fuhrer exhibited a highly positive attitude towards abortion as an indispensable method of dealing with the non-German populations in countries under Nazi control. "In view of the large families of the native populations," he asserted, "it could only suit us if girls and women there had as many abortions as possible." Hitler also personally announced that he "would personally shoot" any "such idiot" who "tried to put into practice such an order (forbidding abortion) in the occupied Eastern territories.

Source:
http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id15.h tml

Tea Party & Carlos
Please excuse my moniker (I don't know how to change it).

I believe the two of you are dead on. Abortion today is the left's "final solution" for their concept of racial problems. It would pay dividends for every Conservative to understand the founder (Margaret Sanger) of Planned Parenthood's purpose for her organization.

Margaret Sanger - On blacks, immigrants and indigents: "...human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... human beings who never should have been born." http://www.dianedew.com/sanger.htm

These people who support "choice" know exactly who is being exterminated. Knowingly or not, they are conspiring (successfully so far) to make Adolph's and Benito's dreams come true.

Conservatives need to realize that we are dealing with modern day Nazis and fascists. The self anointed terms of "liberal" and "progressive" is so sickeningly disingenuous. Evaluate their methods and tactics with Fascism and Nazism and you will easily see the correlations.

I have read your posts over the years (on TH) and I know you are of the intellect to know you will recognize the real foe we face. It is not socialism or communism; it is fascism.




chattel?
A woman my "own" her body, but she does not own the baby's body. The baby has a right to it's own life.

Mike, KOB,et al
The problem with ROE is the Court ignored the Constitution---they did an end-run around the clear Constitutional limit of the Federal Gov't: that anything NOT enumerated was left to the States, & the People respectively. The correct decision was to allow the STATES to make their own laws regarding abortion. But,as usual with the Socialists in this country, the Constitution & the Law doesn't really matter, so a new "right" was invented to justify the murder of millions. Also, look at the Laws regarding illegal drugs & prostitution that DO regulate what women (& men) do with their bodies. But, in these cases, you will not find any justification for baby-killing. This issue is used to create a climate of fear among women, to keep them voting for the democrat party...repeating the travesty of manipulation that many minorities have fallen into. One last thing---what if you're wrong? What if that "fetus" IS a Human Being....then that makes you "Pro-Abortion" types accessories in the greatest Holocaust in Human history. May God show more mercy for you than you show towards the most defenseless of Gods Creations.

Free Donna Holman
She's a living illustration: http://www.armyofgod.com/danholmanNewsLetter.html


to Mike
"Human life begins when one begins to question the nature of him or herself and the environment he or she is in. What makes one human is the ability to reason, think logically, and develop good problem solving capabilities. That is what makes a human."

A newborn infant cannot question his or her nature, nor question the environment, nor think logically, nor reason, nor solve problems. Your principle permits not merely abortion but also infanticide.
Congratulations.

Just a question
about the being in the womb: At what point does the DNA of that being become distinct, even individual? Go ahead, I'll wait...

That's right! Upon the combination of the biological ingredients from a mother and a father. Next question: When does that happen?

Correct! At conception. (Now I know there are some who may want to try to distract the argument with nonsense about the living human being being something other than living and something other than human. Don't waste anyone's time: the truly dead rarely grow, at least not much, and the truly non-human don't become human, not completely, although Golden Retrievers are really loving.)

So much for Justice (!) Blackmun's backpedaling from defining when life begins or whether or not the fetus is human.

As others have stated, the woman's body is hers and the baby's body is the baby's. (I think it was Randy Alcorn who illustrated the fallacy of the "right to my body" argument when he described a classroom scene wherein the students were taken aback when someone said, "I'm pro-choice. I think a man should be able to rape whomever he chooses because it's his body." When someone objected that a woman's body was not his body, there was this ticking of the clock...)

What some will sacrifice in the name of self is appalling. (Good posts on Sanger and Hitler.) We as a country have lost upwards of 50 million children, and for what? A sense of "rights"? Travesty. Many of us will continue to work for the overturning of this shameful decision.

It's not like there haven't been others. Dred Scott, anyone? "Stare decisis" and "precedent" are often a crock and a blanket with which to hide what is so painfully obvious: There is no solid footing, cast about as they may.

Let's get back to the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>


To Knight
"it hasn't resulted in any deaths. Now I know you fetophiles will scream and cry at that, but that's because you think the fetus has rights and the woman doesn't. "

What characterizes 'life' or 'living organisms'? The possession of rights? A blade of grass has no rights yet you would not confuse it with a rock or other unliving object.
The possession of any particular rights do not characterize life.

A 'fetus' is a complete organism composed of living cells. It is using energy, it is growing, it is developing the ability to respond to its environment, it is adapting to its environment, it possessess the latent ability to reproduce (when it eventually reaches that stage of normal maturity).
It is not an unrelated aggregate of cells. It is not a part of the mother's body since it has its own complete and defining DNA secuence.

After the abortion, the life processes of that discreet organism cease. It no longer uses energy, its cells cease all processes and begin to decay. It no longer has or is developing any ability to react or adapt to its environment, or (eventually) reproduce.

This is called 'death'.

Had you claimed that abortion hasn't resulted in the deaths of any *persons*, you would have had a defensible position (though one with which I would not agree). But to claim that 'no deaths have resulted' is both anti-scientific and false.

I agree that women have the right of reproductive choice. They have the right to *choose* not to have sex. They have the right to *choose* and implement various forms of birth control, up to and including sterilization.
I do NOT agree that women have the inherent right to kill their demonstrably-living offspring for their own convenience. Once a human life is in existence, it should only be ended by due legal process for justified legal causes, of which "I don't like what motherhood will do to my lifestyle" is not one.

Only Huckabee Will Do Anything About It
Others will talk about it, but Huckabee will lead to end this travesty of killing the unborn.

To Jeff
The usual rejoinder to the scientifically-valid statement that the 'fetus' is both ALIVE and a discreet HUMAN BEING is:
"Well, okay... but it isn't a *person*."

Thus do abortion-supporters attempt to remove the matter from the realm of the scientific (in which their stance is increasingly insupportable) to the mystical ('personhood' not being entirely subject to scientific definition). It's a clever dodge, really. But it is so *obviously* an evasion that its use is quite pathetic.

Tea Party and other Zealots...
You say that there is an almighty God of some sort. Fine. Prove it. Some me credible evidence that supports your claim. I just don't want words in some book. Anybody can write up fiction, which is exactly what the Bible is, as is the Torah, the Koran, and any other pieces of so called scripture. Show me the evidence. And don't tell me that I have to have faith, because I don't. I don't go by faith, I go by empirical evidence. I go by what can I see, hear, touch, taste, and smell. You want to convince me that giving the woman the freedom to choose is wrong, then be free to do so. Just don't bring God into it because there is no such thing. Think for yourselves. Come to your conclusions and justify your morality without a third party dictating it to you.

Religion is just a system of social control. Stop being sheep.

To clarify again...
I don't support abortion. I support freedom of choice. There are plenty of choices the woman can make before abortion.

To kings_kid
Yep, when one starts defining 'human' by degree of intellect, one is heading down the road to eugenics. It's happened before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:EnthanasiePropaganda.jpg


Mike
Your post at 2.12am is completely disengenous. As you no doubt KNOW. Tea Party mentioned "God" in one paragraph, as far as I can see. I had to search REALLY hard to find a few more references to "God" above.
Most of the arguments against you are based on RATIONALIY, REASON and HUMANITY.

You are preTENDing they are SOLELY religious. But you are fooling no one. What you are doing is raising a red herring. Making a minor point into a major one. Changing the debate to "whether God exists or not"... Sheesh.

By the way, your general attitude to religion as expressed indicates a CLOSED condescending mind. Impossible to communicate with (pardon ending with preposition...).

By the way, Tea Party doesnt strike me as a "zealot" of any kind. But who else did you have in mind when you said "other"?? Name calling those who disagree with... YOU? Right.

Mike
As for your "clarification" (deja voooo??) I believe this is the second time you have so "clarified."

Supporting "freedom of choice" is simply a nice phony way of saying you support - as in you FAVOR - abortion rights. Which is what is MEANT by being pro-abortion. Why are you ashamed of your ACTUAL position?

Mike
Let me see if I got this right. You support freedom of "choice." But let's put that to the test. I bet you dont in FACT support freedom of "choice" in the following ways.

The freedom to choose... to enslave another.
The freedom of choice... to discriminate against another on the basis of race.
The freedom to choose.... whether another may live or die.

"Choice" WOULD be a nice word, but has been destroyed by people like you. Feigning a support for an openended "freedom of choice" whereas in FACT not so doing.

How about this one?
The freedom to drive on whichever side of the road you so "choose"?????? Heh. Cant even do that! Bet you wouldnt want people to have THAT freedom either!

From: The thinking To: The feeling
"MF" has it right: A rational mind cannot reach one that is detached from reality,ie: ensconced in emotion.I have been saying this for years, since the first time Hugh Hewitt had his "Vox Blogoli" series. Here, read this-www.affablerants.blogspot.com/2005/01/vox-blogoli-redux.html

Liberals are relevant to the extent that substantive -Thinking- people pay them any mind. I swear,if it weren't for Laura and Rush railing against that drooling little miscreant who rants all things un-American on MSLSD every night, NOBODY WOULD KNOW WHO HE IS.

We know the ugly truth.Problem is,most of us are related to one,or maybe even are married to one. So how to confront the fact that mental illness is a major part of your family? I don't know folks,but it seems like us sane folk were better off when there was utilized, your standard sanitarium for such people. You know,do like the Kennedys do. Step 1:Give 'em a full frontal lobotomy. Step 2) Keep a full bottle in-front-a-me...well, that second part is for killers named Edward only.(cont...)


From: The Thinking To: Ourselves thanks
(cont...)But seriously,all human misery can be traced to emotion led minds,and or,those who've forsaken their creator.I don't care if it's Plato or Kafka, Vlad the Impaler or Hillary the Snipper, follow your heart,and you have chosen the primrose path to hell.Some love the darkness of their own ignorance. They hate the light,and always will.Accepting that that will never change is one of the greatest paradigms rational humans have refused to face throughout time and memoriam.They're never going to change,that's a fact, but if there is any hope for some of them, we must stop acting like they have cogent thoughts to offer.They have insanity to offer: state enforced altruism,state run healthcare as A SOLUTION!,talking to mass murdering heads of state in order to make them act human,gladly betraying friends so they are slaughtered wholesale,teaching our own children in our own schools with our own money that America is the root of all evil.

I don't want to talk to that. Rush is right: The more fools one engages,the more likely their mental decay will rub off on you,eg;Michael Dead-Cred.He only takes loser callers,the dumber the better,and then he tries to assuage them out of their inanities.Sorry Mike,you're fully infected and your only hope is a daily injection of logical,rational thought.Haven't given up on you yet,I just can't wait for Ann Coulters' return, because that's the only decent thing you've had on in eons.

JimmyJoe
It is actually 1:30 AM where I live, which isn't all that odd for me. I sleep during the day and awake at night. The joys of working 3rd shift. Anyhoot, anyone who puts religious beliefs over reason is a zealot in my book, from Huckabee to Osama, from Reverend Phelps to the Pope.

I am not ashamed from my position at all. I am pro-choice. I am pro-freedom. I am for the woman to have control over her own reproductive system. Its not my place to dictate to a woman what she can and cannot do with her body. Its her body. Not mine. Pretty clear cut view if you ask me.

Give me a rational argument to be against that freedom of choice, that basic right for a person to have ownership of their own body, without refering to God, Jim, and I won't simply dismiss it.

To Mike
Do you support the freedom of a mother or father to 'choose' to kill their newborn if they don't like the fact that its existence cramps their dating life?
I mean, that newborn has not yet "begun to question the nature of him or herself and the environment he or she is in... to reason, think logically, and develop good problem solving capabilities." Please, clarify THIS issue rather than chasing rabbits such as 'prove God exists'.


You wrote:
"It is a moral decision that the woman has to deal with based on her own life experiences and she should be allowed to make the decision that is right for her and her beliefs...I don't need the government to dictate to me, or to a woman, or to anyone else what we can and cannot choose to do with our lives."

This may come as a shock to you, Mike, but society (though its elected representatives) DOES dictate certain decisions to you. For instance, you do not have the lawful ability to *decide* to have sex with your daughter. You may not legally *decide* to kill the guy slowing up traffic. You may not legally *decide* to distribute child porn to your friends.

The central problem with RoeVWade (societally speaking) is that it forced a standard on society with which the majority is not in agreement, as is demonstrated by a number of opinion polls.

Mike
I havent made ANY reference to "God" at ALL. Apart from correcting your error in pretending that it was "all God" stuff.

Are you pro the "freedoms" I have mentioned? Do you place NO limit on what we may "choose" to do? That is just silly.

By the way, Mike,
Tallil2Long just added to the "list" of "freedoms" I would ASSUME, based on the fact that you are supposedly rational, which you would also OPPOSE.

I doubt you would give child molesters the freedom to "choose" to follow their hearts desires.... What I am saying is your position saying "I am for freedom" and "I am for choice" is silly. It is unqualified.

Now, disagree if you wish. But people oppose abortion for one simple RATIONAL reason. They see it as the killing of a child. Simple. IF you can see that, THEN you can see into the "zealous" minds who oppose you.

Poor poor Jimmy...
You are now being facetious. Freedom of enslaving someone is an abhorent oxymoron because by excercising that freedom you are taking freedom from another person. Oh, by the way I see what you are doing here. An unborn is not human in my books so it is has not developed as a person yet. Nice try, but no cigar.

Freedom to discriminate falls in that same catagory, and while bigotry still runs rampant in our society (the seeking to deny homosexuals equal rights as heteros for example) it is a human to human dynamic.

As for the freedom to choose who lives or dies is already practiced. Our military chooses their targets. They decide who lives and who dies in the course of war. Also euthansia for those who are brain dead is practiced, giving the choice of the patient's living will or immediate family members. Denying one's right to die seems to me just your way of trying control how long one suffers. Sounds kind of sadistic to me, Jimmy.

As for driving on either side of the road, it wouldn't bother me any. I don't own a car and I don't have a driver's license. I make liberal (tee hee) use of public transportation and I walk everywhere. Yep, even in the middle of the night. :)

Mike
Nothing "poor" about me.... What is wrong with a little facetiousness in the face of such silliness as you have posted?

Glad you (even you) could see the difficulty in extending UNlimited freedom to individuals to enslave etc. Now you are on my wavelength. I see you do not - contrary to my former impression of what you ACTUALLY said - support "Freedom of choice."

Driving on either side of the road WOULD bother you... even using public transport... I suppose the possibility that you may still crash escapes you????

Talli
Roe vs. Wade forces nothing. You can choose not to have an abortion.

To Mike
"Anyhoot, anyone who puts religious beliefs over reason is a zealot in my book"

That's interesting, coming from the person who claimed "I am not going to tell what a woman can or cannot do with her own body".

Did you know that, according to science, the 'feteus' is NOT PART OF HER BODY? It is temporarily dependent upon her body for sustenance, but it has its own unique and complete DNA. It CANNOT be part of the mother's body.
Methinks you are putting belief over reason, neighbor.

Romans 2:1 says:
"Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."

Pretty insightful 'work of fiction'!

Jimmy
"suppose the possibility that you may still crash escapes you????"

Nope, not at all. If it happens it happens. I really don't dwell to much on things I can't control of and I can't really control when I die, none of us can, so I don't worry about it. I have no heaven to strive for and no hell to fear, so what will be will be. I can only have fun till the deed is done.

Mike
Regardless of how YOU define "humanity" - I have stated already that I do NOT ask that you agree.

Merely understand. People oppose abortion for the SAME reason you oppose the "freedom of choice" where slavery is concerned. It is an oxymoron.

They oppose abortion because they oppose the right to "choose" whether anOTHER may be killed deliberately or not. Why is it impossible for you to see this SIMPLE point? You cant be that stupid.

Again, to "clarify" - I do NOT ask that you "agree." Simply understand. Not a big deal.

I understand why IF one thought the fetus wasNT human abortion is no big deal. I disagree with this position, obviously, but I am "liberal" enough to understand it.

To Mike
"An unborn is not human in my books so it is has not developed as a person yet."

Now, how did I know you would end up expressing this view?

(see my post of 1:59AM)

Jimmy
Don't get me wrong, I see and understand your point. I just like arguing. Its one of my many personal foibles. If it wasn't for that Mass Effect fiasco with Kevin McCollough I wouldn't even be here.


Talli
"Pretty insightful 'work of fiction'!"

So is Shakespeare. :)

Yes, the Christian Bible can be inightful in certain places, but it can also be damn contradictory to. I minored in Religious Studies. Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Catholicism (Christianity with a twist of lemon), Buddhism, and Judaism were all on my academic palate. The number one thing that I learned about them is that all of them, except Buddhism for some odd reason, annoy me.

To Mike
"Roe vs. Wade forces nothing. You can choose not to have an abortion. "

A demonstrable falsehood. In this decision, the Supreme Court forced upon America the standard that abortion (including that performed merely for the convenience of the mother) is morally acceptable and lawful. Americans did not establish acceptance of this principle by electing and affirming representatives who wrote this into law.
You are confusing 'forcing a standard upon America' with 'forcing individuals to have an abortion'.

To Mike
I levelled a scientific, rational argument against your claim that the 'fetus' is part of the mother's body...
and the only portion of that post to which you were capable of responding was the matter of biblical insight?

You are fleeing substantive, topical arguments as fast as you can, aren't you?

Sorry, Talli
I made a post but I guess it didn't show up. If a organism is separate from its host in DNA terms yet drawing out nutrients yet give nothing back in return is a parasitic organism. Is that what a fetus is? A parasite?

To Mike
A parasite obtains nutrients to the detriment of its host. Hosting a parasite is not a designed function of the host organism.

The mother's body was designed to carry and nourish a baby.

Sorry, the equivalence isn't there.

Second to Mike
Also, wilfully conflating the designed (or evolved, if you prefer) sexual-reproductive process with opportunistic parasitic infestation is anti-scientific.
Why must people of faith lecture you on science? Are you not, Secular Man, capable of arriving at your convictions through science-based rational thought?

HA!
Damn it, Talli, I a gamer not a doctor! :p

To Mike
I'm not a doctor either... I'm a soldier. From Arkansas, no less! :)

Ah, something in common... The MIlitary
A soldier? That is pretty cool. I was in the Navy at Pearl Harbor for a small number of years. Now I am stuck in Iowa.

Of course I think the one thing we can both agree on is that if you don't want to have a child the best option for all those concern is to abstain from sex in the first place.

How would you punish them?
I'm very interested to know, if abortion were illegal and a woman obtained one anyway, what should her punishment be? What about the doctor or nurse or guy in the alley with a coat hanger that performs it? Is the woman less culpable than the abortion provider?

To Mike
We can agree on that.
We might EVENTUALLY be able to reach agreement on whether a 'fetus' is part of the woman's body, on whether a 'fetus' is a parasite, whether RoeVWade imposed a moral standard on the people of the U.S., whether newborn infants can be killed for their parents' convenience simply because they can't yet reason logically, whether the cognitively defective can be euthenized, whether kings_kid's stepdaughter is a human being, whether society has the authority to remove some 'choices' such as the choice to be a pedophile, etc.
.... IF you would address the questions and rational arguments that have been levelled against your views. However, you have not and apparently will not. Is that because you cannot?

To Hops
The punishment options for wilfully causing the unsanctioned death of another human are pretty varied depending upon intent, methods, etc.
If we accept abortion as the not-legally-sanctioned death of a human being, then we may choose from among them.
In the case of the woman, her state of mind (the perceived level of anxiety she was feeling) could be introduced as a mitigating factor (though not a justifying one). In the case of the doctor, that would not be the case.

As for the 'guys with the coat hangers', most illegal abortions were performed by the same doctors, in the same facilities, as they were after abortion was legalized.

Well...
You wanted the science route and the parasite angle was something I came up off the top of my head. However early term pregnancy the fetus is just a collection of cells, developing over a space of time. However, it is still the woman's choice to choose to have the kid or not. Its the woman's body. This goes into your whole moral standard thing. Morality differs from culture to culture. What may be morally right in one culture may not be morally right in another. Trying to put a standard on morality in the first place is ludricrous. Roe vs Wade does not impose any morality on anyone. It gives the woman freedom to choose and she has to choose what is right for her morality based on her upbringing and culture.

We don't have the same morals, Talli, yet you seem to want to impose your standard of morality on me while I simply want to give people the choice of following what they believe is right without interference from the government or others.

You are now making an assumption that one's sexuality and what he or she is attracted to is a choice. It is not. However it is a choice how one acts on these urges. Sexual attraction is a physiological instinct that compels us to act when it comes to sex. It is neither right or wrong. Nothing is more primal in instinct than the desire to have sex. How one acts on these urges determines the right and wrong in these cases. Take what happen to Senator Craig. It was not wrong for him to have homosexual urges, but it was wrong how he sought to fulfill these urges. Sex in a public restroom, homo or hetero, is just wrong.

Pedophiles are predators, acting on that instinct, that forces, by making the choice to victimize a minor, sexual intercourse on a child. The act of victimizing another human being makes it reprehensible.

I hope this clarifies a few things.

to Mike
"However early term pregnancy the fetus is just a collection of cells, developing over a space of time."

No, it is a complete organism, appropriate to its stage of development. As, for instance, is a newborn.

"However, it is still the woman's choice to choose to have the kid or not. Its the woman's body."

Again, it is NOT the woman's body that is being killed. If the only alternative to killing a fellow human being is to have the baby... well, which is more important -- the woman's convenience or the life of a human being?

"Morality differs from culture to culture. What may be morally right in one culture may not be morally right in another. Trying to put a standard on morality in the first place is ludricrous."

In some cultures, committing genital mutilation on infant females is viewed as moral. Would YOU advocate legalizing that practice in the United States? In Iran, it is seen as legal and moral to execute people for being homosexual. Is it 'ludicrous' that our standard of morality opposes this practice?

"The act of victimizing another human being makes it reprehensible."

And, as we all know, a woman's fetus only becomes a human at birth; before that it was a giraffe.
And killing without just cause is certainly *not* victimizing.

"I simply want to give people the choice of following what they believe is right without interference from the government or others."

Sure. If a person believes it okay to dump used oil into a ditch, who is the government to say 'No'?

"We don't have the same morals, yet you seem to want to impose your standard of morality on me"

A marvellous summation of the NAMBLA protest against society.

Mike
Mike: "Don't get me wrong, I see and understand your point. I just like arguing. Its one of my many personal foibles."

Heh. I like you better already!! We share a common "foible"!!

Second to Mike
"Roe vs Wade does not impose any morality on anyone"
"you seem to want to impose your standard of morality on me"

You can't have it both ways. If my expressing my point of view constitutes 'imposing standards of morality', then implementing nationwide LAW certainly does.




Mike
So, are you for Baby killing?

To Semperfi/par
Mike won't say, but his criteria for determining what constitutes 'human life' certainly would allow infanticide, not to mention eugenics programs like 'Action T4'... this has been pointed out to him and he hasn't retracted the criteria.

KOB
The woman can do anything she wants to do (she did when she had sex with the father of the baby she subsequently aborts). I'm just pointing out that she's wrong to abort the CHILD...

Tallil2long
Excellent posts....

Mike...
"Stuck" in Iowa? I was there for a while... loved it!

Row vs. Wade
I am not sure you can even call it judicial activism. I have listened to the audio tape of Roe vs. Wade and I think the Justices were old, tired, and even dare I say, stupid. Some of the questions the Justices asked were less than you would expect from the best legal minds. To end up with the decision that made on the grounds of " right-to-privacy" is really malpractice more than judicial activism. I do not think this court even understood what they were doing. Listen to the audio tapes. It is quite disturbing.

Unless you went to Regent with Monica
Goodling, you already know that Roe was basically inevitable. The common law did not bestow the right to life upon the unborn and as such, the unborn had no rights whatsoever at law (even the right to share in an inheritance was conditioned upon live birth). Think Dred Scott. As such, the Court was forced to balance the rights of a person with that of a non-person. It might not be the answer he wanted to give, but it *is* the answer that the judge who was being faithful to the law *had* to give.

Riddle me this: The State's interest in protecting a non-person is _____________?

While Dred Scott was a morally wrong decision, it was a legally correct one. The flaw was in the Constitution, which we later fixed.

You can wax eloquent until the cows come home about how evil the Roe decision was, but give me a judge like Harry Blackmun every time. A judge who is willing to set aside his personal feelings to decide not what he wants, but what *the law* demands.

BB and Non-persons
Your argument is wholly predicated on the assumption/assertion that the unborn CHILD is not a person.

Those who advocate life insist that the unborn child IS a person, meaning that we're making life and death decisions, and supposedly weighing who's "more important," the mother or the child.

I once had a discussion with someone who asserted that a child wasn't considered to be a person until they were something like 18-months old. That's dangerous...

To Beastie Boy
"While Dred Scott was a morally wrong decision, it was a legally correct one. The flaw was in the Constitution, which we later fixed."

There you are. Utilizing the same principle, I submit that the Supreme Court's decision on Roe V. Wade was morally wrong, but (according to your claim) legally correct based on the common law's antiquated failure to recognize the fetus as the human being that modern scientific evidence shows it to be. We need to fix the flaw that permitted this situation.
If we manage that, you will be okay with it, right?

Semperfi
"So, are you for Baby killing?"

I am pro-choice. Take that as you may.

kob
and you're argument rests on the belief that the baby inside the mother's womb not only isn't a person, but has no value.

woman owns body argument
I never said "the woman doesn't own her body." I said that the taking of a human life is wrong. Moreover, the woman should be responsible with how she chooses to use that body.

Wrong end of the telescope
Article I, Section I of the Constitution creates Congress and states it has the powers "herein enumerated". If it is not on the list (section 8 mostly), it is none of Washington's business. Ipso facto, the vast majority of the federal government is unconstitutional. To assure that was the case, the 9th and 10th Amendments went into the Bill of Rights. As to the 9th, referenced here it is 21 words:
"The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." Ergo, the right of privacy between a doctor and patient IS constitutionally protected.

We may not like what some say or write, but they - and we - are protected under the 1st Amendment. Does anyone question that this makes us better off overall? Want to take away our rights, Mr. Diaz? Go join a gun control group. At least there the interpretation of the 2nd Amendment's meaning is open to debate - which is protected for both sides by the Bill of Rights.

Mike, you appear to be comfortable
making claims that are absolute in the sense of the words you use, e.g., “…fiction, which is exactly what the Bible is,” and “Just don’t bring God into it because there is no such thing,” but you, who demand evidence, do not demonstrate any evidence to support them. I’ve done some studying too. Here are some empirical evidences for you to consider: There are numerous historical sources outside of the Bible that corroborate the existence of Christ, His ministry, including miracles, death, and reports of resurrection. The Biblical texts themselves are well known to be far better substantiated than any other work of antiquity, in the number of manuscripts, extremely small number of differences, which do not change the meaning of any text, and the time between their being written to the earliest copies we have. Archeological discoveries have confirmed that many long-questioned people and events were actual people and events.

Now, what one does with evidence is another issue. One can consider it to be strong support or even proof (depending on how one defines that term; it has slightly different meanings in science, law, history, etc.) of a theory, assertion, model, etc., or it can be merely part of a larger model or conceptual structure that has many types and samples of evidence. The thing is, each person has to decide what to do with it. You sound as though you have already made up your mind. Based on what? Or, in spite of what?

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

Evidence for Mike, part 2
You may or may not appreciate this. Jesus told a story about a rich man who died and went to Hades where he was in agony from flame and thirst, and he begged Abraham, who was standing across a chasm from the hell-hole, to let him return to his family and warn them to stay away from this dreadful place. Abraham replied that his family had Moses and the Prophets (historical evidence of Divine revelation, visitation, and confirmation), and that if they did not accept what they said, they would not accept the warnings of a man even if he were to return from the dead (see Luke 16). The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the best-attested events in human history and still some people will not accept it for what it is.

Here is another way to look at it: If there is no God, why do you care? Why would anyone? But the fact is, many do, which does not fit well in the model of atheism.

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

Abortion is complicated
Slow down big boy - abortion opponents and proponents are confused by their own narrow clarity of a complex issue. We live in a complex society and simpletons rarely have good solutions.
Ohg
http://thefiresidepost.com/2007/10/16/abortion-conflicting- messages/

How about
Eye for an eye? In cases where abortion is the product of "convenience" we just abort the abortor.

Yeah, we'll just terminate their useless lives in the 54th+ trimester.

Ever notice that the only one in a murder/abortion case without a voice is the one murdered/aborted?

Pretty neat, huh?

oops
read 84th

A Right does not make it "Right"
Kim Jong Ill has the right to kill any of his citizens that he chooses. This right stems from him being the recognized leader of North Korea and having the power/control over the North Korean people. It is a simple fact that no higher authority will stop him from doing this.

A woman has a right to kill her unborn child if she chooses. This right stems from her being recognized by our Supreme Court as having power/control over the unborn child. It is a simple fact that no higher authority will stop her from doing this.

Throughout history tyrants have used their power over the weak for their own convenience. Kim Jong Ill uses tyranny to maintain control of his people by ignoring their inalienable rights. The tyranny by our Supreme Court has allowed the inalienable rights of the unborn to be ignored.

Having the Right to do something does not make it "Right". Remember the Dred Scott decision. As long as the unborn have the same legal status as slaves this tyranny will continue.

Mike I
Mike writes: Tuesday, January, 22, 2008 5:01 PM

"I disagree...
marystella, human life begins when an individual becomes aware of one's existence. Human life begins when one begins to question the nature of him or herself and the environment he or she is in. What makes one human is the ability to reason, think logically, and develop good problem solving capabilities. That is what makes a human."

Your argument is biologically unsound - humans have human DNA. You are arguing Singer's position that you can kill any born baby. Are you going to tell me that the baby has all of those abilities the minute it leaves the womb by C-section, but not before? At what age did you acquire those capabilities?

Regarding the role of government
in the “complex” issue of who has control over life and death and why:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed…”

The purpose of government is to “secure these rights” of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. The government-sanctioned deaths of 50 million innocent babies is by definition “destructive of these ends.” As many have said, if there is no right to life, the others do not matter.

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

Mike II
Mike writes: Tuesday, January, 22, 2008 7:39 PM

"...I know what it is like to be fatherless and not have that level of support while growing up. That is one thing I would not put any other child through."

But I hope that the absence of your father is not the reason that you choose not to have children. Surely, you could over come that, whether it was by his untimely death, or by choice.

Jeff, Great Post
I especially enjoyed your classroom illustration. Another illustration I like, is by Greg Koukle, and it speaks to the fundamental question of abortion. He says, suppose you are in the kitchen washing dishes and your five-year-old comes in and asks, "Mommy/Daddy, may I kill this?" What must be determined before you answer is, "What is it?" If it is a cockroach you scream, "Yes, here's a hammer." But if it is the neighbor's cat, you say, "Wait, hold on there a minute, we have to talk about this."

The point is, when it comes to abortion, this is the question that must be answered. "What is it?" What is the unborn? Please take note how the pro-abortion advocates on this thread and elsewhere stubbornly refuse to address this relevent question. They throw out specious red herrings that drive the argument off the point of this fundamental question:

-"The "Coat Hanger" appeal" --As if the law should be faulted for making it riskier to kill an innocent human child.
- "A woman should have rights over her own body"--recently changed to 'reproductive system,' as it is dawning on them that there is undeniably more than one body involved and she obviously cannot do anything she likes with her own body. No one has unlimited freedom to choose to destroy another human being.
-"A woman has a right to privacy"--as I stated earlier, the law routinely limits our privacy on much less weighty issues than the right to life.
-"A fetus is not a person". Huh? The only arguments they can give to support this will--as in Mike's case--necessary exclude obvious 'persons,' such as infants and even some adults. Then you are entertained by either their back-peddling or their cold-hearted stubborness in standing by that position.




Slavery vs. Abortion
Mmm, how many people own slaves today?

Show of hands?

Oh, none? Actually, sex-slaves do exist in America, it is something we don't like to openly talk about, but they are brought in from Korea and other countries.

Be that as it may, Americans today do not own slaves.

How many people will have abortions if abortion is made illegal again? That question is easy to answer because abortion was illegal in this country for well over 100 years.

To recap:

1.) Slavery starts out legal in this country, is made illegal, and then once illegal goes away.

2.) Abortion starts out illegal for over 100 years and then is made legal. During the 100's of years abortion was illegal, millions of women received illegal abortions.

One can Google "abortion" easy enough and find statistics for places like Brazil where the ILLEGAL abortion rate is higher than for places like the U.S., although the root cause has been identified as lack of use of contraception (i.e. the Catholic Church) and not abortion being illegal.

The point still holds though. Making abortion illegal will not end abortion in this country. At best it reduce the number of abortions by a percentage.

Comparing the moral issue of slavery to the moral issue of abortion is comparing apples to oranges.

Abortion is more akin to the war on drugs where billions of dollars each year is spent to stop it, thousands if not millions are in prison for using, and yet the problem still exists and all efforts to eliminate illegal drugs have changed little about this countries use of them.

Jeff, Great Post cont'd


There are many others, but for the sake of brevity I will end with my personal favorite.
-"Men have no right to have an opinion on abortion." What in the world does gender have to do with having an opinion on human life? If I know my male neighbor is molesting his little boy, because I'm a female do I keep my mouth shut?

These are all diversionary tactics to avoid answering this most basic, fundamental and obvious question. "What is it?" When the pro-abortionists came into America's kitchen asking, "May I kill this," we should have said, "What is it?" Maybe it's time we did.

To Jeff
"Are you going to tell me that the baby has all of those abilities the minute it leaves the womb by C-section, but not before?"

Nope.

"If there is no God, why do you care? Why would anyone? But the fact is, many do, which does not fit well in the model of atheism."

One can have morality without it being dictated by some so called make beleive divinity. I care because I can.

The lie of 50 million murders

Banning abortion will not end abortion and the "50 million" number will not go to zero.

Even if a Constitutional Amendment were passed banning abortion (something that happened for slavery but will never happen for abortion), illegal abortions in this very technological country would continue as it does in all countries today that ban abortion.

On the moral, side even pro-life people do not believe abortion is murder. Why? Because they do not wish to enact the standard penalties of life in prison or capital punishment on the perpetrators. We know this because of the punishments enacted by States prior to Roe. Women do not even do jail time under previous state laws where abortion was illegal. Women caught having abortions are rarely arrested.

Pro-life people who argue abortion is murder are left holding a bag when trying explain why pre-mediated murder, abortion, should receive any less penalty than any other pre-meditated murder.

The penalties for the doctor and women involved in an illegal abortion previously in states where abortion was outlawed were no where comprable as any other 1st degree murder sentencing, in fact not even morally close. Which just means that even those argue abortion is murder do not really believe it. In fact, in all states where abortion was illegal it WAS NOT classified as murder.

Look it up. If Roe v. Wade is overturned, the states with the so called "trigger laws" making abortion immediately illegal DO NOT classify abortion as murder, but as something unto itself.

Meaning, even the hardcore pro-lifers are not willing to call abortion murder when it is illegal.




To Rich
"But I hope that the absence of your father is not the reason that you choose not to have children."


Nope. There are several reasons why I choose not to have children is...

1: I don't feel right about bringing a child into this messed up joke of a planet.
2: I don't have the economic means to support a child.
3: I do not wish to add to the overpopulation problem. Too many people. Too little resources.
4: I plan to remain single for the rest of my life.


Elizabeth
Thank you. I am a fan of Mr. Koukl’s also. I especially liked your points on other laws that limit “privacy” and the gender-exclusion position. You have illustrated clearly and starkly a number of serious problems with the pro-abortion / “pro-choice” (how “neutral,” how misleading) argument.

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

Roe vs Wade
When 9 people in an ivory tower are able to make laws it also then holds true that a different group of 9 people in the same ivory tower can change them. This has led us to the stupidity of making a supreme court candidates view on the matter the number one attribute for selection. R/W should have forced congress (probably impossible) to define when life begins. I can understand a view that says a fertilized egg the day after conception is not a baby. The day before delivery however is something else again. So is the month before delivery for that matter.

Mike
The argument is not about maturity of abilities, it is about the identification of who is involved. The viability argument is arbitrary, and we should exercise extreme caution in a decision about life and death.

Re morality, you must have derived yours from someone / something. If there is no God, why and how does one identify, adopt, and practice a standard of morality?

Re “make-believe” divinity, again, what is your evidence?

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

Child abuse
This is an ethical question for all those who believe that the rights of childhood should start with conception.

Can a pregnant women be guilty of child abuse?

For instance, we know that fetal alcohol syndrome is one of the leading causes of birth defects and mental retardation.

Should a women who induces a birth defect due to drinking while pregnant have her child taken from her? Punished in anyway for behavior such as drinking which is known to be abusive to the child?

There is an interesting premise in the movie "Citizen Ruth" which speaks to this question.

Ruth is a drug addict who already has a daughter and becomes pregnant. She gets caught while pregnant sniffing glue. The judge has a choice of either letting go or enforcing jail-time. The judge learns Ruth is pregnant and tells her that if she plans on keeping the child then he is going to through her in jail for the duration of her pregnancy.

If a woman gets caught doing drugs during pregnancy, does the state have the right to act on the child's behalf and incarerate said women until the baby is born in order to facilitate the safety of the baby?

A child is not an adult and does not have the same life-or-death rights, a child's parent is its Guardian.

Jehovah witnesses do not believe in receiving blood.

I'm just curious if what set of rights those who believe the rights of childhood start at conception? A women caught abusing her child today can have it taken away by the state and put into foster care. Should pregnant women who abuse their unborn child fall under the same set of laws?

If not why not? Why would the rights of the unborn be less than the born?

Post Holer
It is a non-sequitur that because there were not laws in 40+ states that equated abortion with pre-meditated murder of a person already born before Roe v. Wade that the vast majority of the deaths of these babies cannot be considered murder as it is commonly defined. While I doubt that all women who have had abortions fully understood what they were doing to the point where one could describe it as pre-meditated murder, a decision to put to death an innocent baby, and the complicit acts of those who know better, is still a decision to put to death an innocent human being, versus an accident, self-defense, justifiable homicide, or executing a convicted killer or serial rapist. What would you like to call it?

Also, just because people are not prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law does not necessarily mean the law is not a good law. The reasons why people decide not to enforce a law can run the gamut of extenuating circumstances, changing opinions, repeated propagation of lies and misstatements, convenience, etc. If the law is not good, it can be changed.

In then-Justice Rehnquist’s dissent in Roe v. Wade, he pointed out that many states had laws that proscribed abortion for over a century: “As early as 1821, the first state law dealing directly with abortion was enacted by the Connecticut Legislature. Conn. Stat., Tit. 22, 14, 16. By the time of the adoption of the Fourteenth [410 U.S. 113, 175] Amendment in 1868, there were at least 36 laws enacted by state or territorial legislatures limiting abortion.”

The big question is: Why?

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

Two More Red Herrings From Post Holer
1). "Banning abortion will not end abortion and the "50 million" number will not go to zero."

Answer: No and banning bank robbery has not reduced their numbers to zero either. What's your point? The question is still, what is the unborn?

2). "On the moral, side even pro-life people do not believe abortion is murder. Why? Because they do not wish to enact the standard penalties of life in prison or capital punishment on the perpetrators."

Answer: No, I DO believe abortion is murder, because I know an innocent human life is being taken without justification. How to prosecute abortion is admittedly more complicated and should be decided legistlatively, like all other crimes. That is why the law treats homicides by degree, taking into considerations like malice aforethought. Did abolitionists need to have a thesis prepared as to the degree of punishment for slave-holders before they could oppose slavery? This is just the latest gotcha by the pro-abortion crowd in their attempt to make pro-lifers look extreme while side-stepping the real issue. What is the unborn?

re: Jeff
My apologies, but the point was not to argue that whether abortion should be legal, but to point out that abortion is not murder under any defintion of laws where abortion was illegal. It was a separate law until itself.

In other words, if abortion where exactly murder there'd be no special laws because women and doctors or illegal providers would have been prosecuted under existing murder statutes.

The point is this. Even pro-lifers are unwilling to prosecute abortion under existing murder statutes. Therefore arguing with pro-choice opponents that abortion should be illegal because it is murder is disingenuous at best and better described as hypocritical.

If abortion is murder then it shouldn't need any special law and be simply prosecuted as with any other murder.

But states don't classify abortion as murder and yet pro-lifers want made illegal on the ground of murder.

The pro-life community needs to own up to the fact that they are in denial that they consider it murder by any moral legal standard.

Abortion is not legally murder by any state statute prior to Roe v. Wade and was never prosecuted under general murder statutes. The penalties are nowhere commensurate with what one describe as murder.

If the pro-life camp dropped the murder talk, even if they believe that, perchance progress could be made. Personal beliefs do not translate into law, just look at the personal beliefs many on this site profess that liberals are all mentally disturbed. No one takes seriously some notion that laws should be enacted treating all liberals as mentally disturbed and since no state legally treats abortion as murder, or even close, then pro-life people should just admit the reality that is there: abortion is not murder by any state definition and is an untenable argument for those who are pro-choice.



There will always be abortions...
...as long as humans become fertile 7 years before the age of 21.

No animal species engages in the killing its own offspring, deliberately, before birth as does man. In some species of bear, like the Grizzly, the male will purposely kill cubs, his or another's, if the cubs sow cannot protect them (perhaps there's a hint in this). In other animals, such as equines, i.e. zebra's and wild horses, those born defected will be killed by a lead stallion. The herd cannot afford to slow down for a "cripple" when speed is its defense.

Man assumes his divinity by virtue of his status among animals upon the earth. But there are still some remnants of the animal nature that man must deal with. Abortion is not the real issue. The issue is how do we live in the duality of being both animal and divine? Posited law is such a puny adversary of Natural Law. The judges of the Supreme Court are products of the institutions of posited law. That they error is no surprise.

Post Holer
I think I understand your point, and acknowledge some points of history, but I don’t agree with your proposal for the way ahead today and tomorrow. While abortion may not have been considered tantamount to murder in laws that were passed hundreds of years ago, I would like to see abortion defined and established in law as an act of murder because we know better than ever before what is being done to the unborn child. While some in the pro-life camp may not want to do this, nor prosecute those who are involved in it, that does not change the fact that we understand that an innocent human being is being put to death, most of the time in cruel, barbaric, painful ways, and we must not condone it.

I am not calling for people to take the law into their own hands. I am calling for more education, better laws, more consistent enforcement, and more protection for those who need it most.

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

Post Holer to Jeff
"just look at the personal beliefs many on this site profess that liberals are all mentally disturbed"

You mean they're not????

re: Jeff writes:
So you would do well to take then a lesson from Benjamin Franklin.

Thomas Jefferson originally outlawed slavery in the Declaration of Independence, thus setting off a firestorm with southern states.

As a matter of practicality Franklin advised Jefferson to take it out. In fact Franklin went one step further and insisted that the signing be unanimous by all 13 colonies.

Franklin himself stated that history would probably vilify most for his politics enabling slavery. But Franklin understood the difference between today and tomorrow.

Given no state today would prosecute abortion under general murder statutes even if Roe were overturned tomorrow, then Franklin would advise you to take the practical reality of the day and drop the nonsense murder talk. Every one in this country knows that no woman or doctor is going to be given the death sentence for abortion, even in Texas.

Flailing abortion as murder to the pro-choice crowd works against your cause, not for it.

That is what Franklin was so effective at, advancing a cause. The pro-life community has failed in every aspect to advance its cause with the American people. The best they will be able to do is get Roe overturned.

Perhaps your children or their children will see special abortion laws dropped in favor of prosecuting abortion under murder statutes, but you won't. Franklin was a genius in insisting that all 13 states sign the Declaration. Could you follow his example? Could you agree with something that you know history will vilify you for the sake of true progress? Would you be willing to exclaim you would only outlaw abortion only if all 50 states agreed and signed? If so then "murder" would never appear in such a document.

Murder should be dropped in favor of immoral as a practical matter and the murder objectives left for some future generation.




re: ElizabethBennet writes:
Hi words, not mine.

" It is the quintessential example of judicial activism, and it has to be the greatest exercise of (to use Justice White’s phrase) raw judicial power ever seen, resulting in the death of close to 50 million lives."

So, the my argument was a rhetorical one pointing out the fallacy of rhetorical argument Roe being responsible for 50 million lives.

In fact, you can look it up yourself, countries like Brazil have a higher abortion rate than the US and abortion is illegal there. So perchance Roe saved lives? Would any pro-lifer give Roe credit if some survey showed that in fact Roe probably saved lives? Uhh, no. So the argument is specious at best.

In Brazil, the thinking goes that the abortion rate is higher because the use of contraception rate is lower, not because abortion is illegal. The contraception rate being lower can be attributed to the Catholic Church's stance on contraception.

Should be blame the Catholic Church for all the abortions in Brazil? Or the individuals who follow one proscription, not using contraceptives, and not another proscription banning abortion. I don't blame the Catholic Church, I blame the individuals responsible.

As a conservative I believe individuals are responsible for their own actions. In any murder, abortion or otherwise, my opinion is that the only guilty party is the one committing the murder. If a jury let's OJ Simpson free, I don't blame the murder on the jury because of the way the law is written.

To lay the blame at the Roe. decision is to not hold accountable all the parties who actually performed the act. The doctors and women who had the abortions are the ones responsible for the murders in my view. Laying the blame for 50 million abortions at the doorstep of only Roe let's off the hook the millions of women who made that decision to begin with. If you believe abortion is murder than that means those millions of women are murders, not the "Roe" decision.



re: ElizabethBennet writes:
Hi words, not mine.

He laid the blame for 50 million lives at Roe's feet.

So, the my argument was a rhetorical one pointing out the fallacy of rhetorical argument Roe being responsible for 50 million lives.

In fact, you can look it up yourself, countries like Brazil have a higher abortion rate than the US and abortion is illegal there. So perchance Roe saved lives? Would any pro-lifer give Roe credit if some survey showed that in fact Roe probably saved lives? Uhh, no. So the argument is specious at best.

In Brazil, the thinking goes that the abortion rate is higher because the use of contraception rate is lower, not because abortion is illegal. The contraception rate being lower can be attributed to the Catholic Church's stance on contraception.

Should be blame the Catholic Church for all the abortions in Brazil? Or the individuals who follow one proscription, not using contraceptives, and not another proscription banning abortion. I don't blame the Catholic Church, I blame the individuals responsible.

As a conservative I believe individuals are responsible for their own actions. In any murder, abortion or otherwise, my opinion is that the only guilty party is the one committing the murder. If a jury let's OJ Simpson free, I don't blame the murder on the jury because of the way the law is written.

To lay the blame at the Roe. decision is to not hold accountable all the parties who actually performed the act. The doctors and women who had the abortions are the ones responsible for the murders in my view. Laying the blame for 50 million abortions at the doorstep of only Roe let's off the hook the millions of women who made that decision to begin with. If you believe abortion is murder than that means those millions of women are murders, not the "Roe" decision.

On the contrary,
I agree with what Franklin did with respect to starting an abolitionist society/movement. He and Benjamin Rush and John Jay all did. So did William Wilberforce. They were acting consistently with their positions.

It is one thing to advocate for a unanimous declaration of independence. It is another to advocate for a change in the law.

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

Post Holer
I have to agree with you on personal accountability. That is one thing I really hate about the US. Its culture has become a culture that always blames someone else.

Why did that 19 year old shoot people up at the Mall? The fault must lie with the music he listened to, the gun manufacturer of his rifle, and games he played. NO! That 19 year old is to blame. He pulled the trigger. He killed the people. HE IS TO BLAME!

The question becomes which is the more responsible action? A woman having the abortion, thusly keeping one less unwanted kid out of the world or the woman giving birth to the kid, adding to the world wide problem of overpopulation and ditching him or her at the hospital?

re: Jeff
So you are saying that you would have signed both the versions of the Declaration of Independence?

The moral dilemma is that the first draft given the representatives outlawed slavery. The southern states refused to sign. Given you had a moral belief that slavery was wrong, you are saying you would have signed the Declaration as Franklin did even though you knew slavery was wrong?

Franklin himself is the one who said that future generations would vilify him for his politics in that regard. I'm not making it up.

If you had been given a choice of two Declarations, one banning slavery and one not, could you have had Franklin's courage? Or would have stood on principle and refused to sign the version that left slavery out?

You are using too broad a brush
Mike, which doesn’t make your argument more valid or worth more for the excess paint. God’s existence is not mine to prove. You said he didn’t exist and I refuted your assertion (and you have not addressed what I wrote). God did not create “three whole religions.” People make religions. God made His case and you are free to reject it. But He said in His word there are eternal consequences for rejecting Him.

On the question of right and wrong, on which this thread turns, you said you came to terms with your own sense of right and wrong. So, if your sweeping assertions don’t square with what God said about Himself – and I’m not talking about Thor – how does your morality support rejecting a concept based on incomplete or flawed information?

In consideration of others, we should look for an opportunity to discuss this further in a more relevant thread.

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

Post Holer, I don’t know
primarily because I wasn’t there, and it would be difficult at best to stand in the shoes of the Founders and weigh the impacts and benefits of signing a Declaration that did not outlaw slavery vs one that did, without knowing more about the prospect of further debate (time was short to answer the British army and navy, and unite against them, or “hang separately”), plans for the next convention, how long it would take to end slavery, and so forth.

If the Founders had known it would be eleven more years before the Constitution was signed, two years after that before the Bill of Rights were ratified, and the Emancipation Proclamation would not be made until 86 years passed, they might have altered their decisions in 1776.

The debate about outlawing abortion does not turn on the definition or prosecution of murder. It turns on protecting the living human beings who are not yet born. It remains to be seen how clearly and quickly the people will see the need for ending this terrible practice, how strongly they want to prosecute those who insist on continuing it, and why.

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

For Tal/AJ: Judicial Activism
A.J.: "Your argument is wholly predicated on the assumption/assertion that the unborn CHILD is not a person.

Those who advocate life insist that the unborn child IS a person, meaning that we're making life and death decisions, and supposedly weighing who's "more important," the mother or the child."
---------------------------
It's not what *I* think, AJ; it's what *THE LAW* thinks. There are rules for overturning erroneous decisions -- what Justice Roberts calls precedent on precedent -- and this won't fit.

=================
Tal: "I submit that the Supreme Court's decision on Roe V. Wade was morally wrong, but (according to your claim) legally correct based on the common law's antiquated failure to recognize the fetus as the human being that modern scientific evidence shows it to be. We need to fix the flaw that permitted this situation.
If we manage that, you will be okay with it, right?
--------------------------
To the common law, science is irrelevant. As far as the law is concerned, it's a done deal. If you can pass a constitutional amendment to solve the problem, I'm down with it.

Problem is, the "cure" you propose (unbridled judicial activism) is worse than the "disease."

Roe, one step in the process
First, we decided that big government is the best of all solutions to every problem. Then, we allowed the Supremes to usurp the power to amend our not-a-living-document Constitution anytime that five of the nine choose to do so. The Supremes now protect and defend the erroneous decisions of dead judges at a far higher priority than they honor their oaths to protect and defend the Constitution. Also, we have now degenerated a long way from a constitutional republic toward an uncontrolled de-mob-ocracy. Everyone has his hands in the pot, and the left and right wings of Control Freaks Unanimous can cram any damn thing they choose down our throats once they buy and steal 50.01% of the votes.

Enjoy the bread and circuses while they last; our days are numbered. http://www.poorgrandchildren.com

Homicide?
I always thought it was really odd that a drunk driver who, after plowing into and killing a pregnant woman who is driving to an abortion clinic, is charged with TWO counts of vehicular homicide.

Or a guy who murders a pregnant woman is charged with two counts of murder.

But a pregnant woman can trot on down to her local abortion clinic and kill the fetus with impunity and even in some cases have the government pay for it. Hmm. Odd, don't you think?

Is the fetus a person or not? Apparently when you're a murderer or a drunk driver it's a person. But it's just a matter of convenient semantics when abortion is concerned.

BB
Ok, then, it's the view of the *law*

Doesn't make it any more *right* IMHO

ex-wyomingite
Forgive me but I find it a little disingenuous that you claim neutrality on this issue yet make statements like this:

"During this period, anti-abortion advocates seem to have settled on the figure of 50 million abortion procedures as having been performed . Corollary to that statistic is the conclusion that nearly that many American women are determined not to cede authority over what goes on in their wombs."

Whether or not you or I am partisan is hardly relevant to the question at hand. Is the unborn an innocent human life? If the unborn is not innocent human life--we can end the pro-life movement today. No justification for abortion is necessary. I'll even march with the pro-choice crowd for unlimited abortion on demand. If, however, the unborn is innocent human life no justification for abortion is adequate-with the possible exception of saving the life of the mother. My "partisanship" does not enter in to it.

As to abolition in the United States, if you choose to believe it happened in a vacuum with no reference to the works of Wilberforce and the British movement I will not attempt to disuade you otherwise, again it is not relevent.

The catalyst to emancipation that I speak of is indeed the Civil War. I understood your point to be that if America has not been convinced of the immorality of abortion after three decades we should give up. Afterall, emancipation was accomplished in three decades. I was simply pointing out that because the end to the inujustice of slavery was expediated by the Civil War the time frame cannot be used as a benchmark for a limit to fighting the injustice of abortion. If such a benchmark existed. I find it a little duplicitous on your part to pretend that you thought I was advocating violence or war to end abortion. If I was indeed unclear on this point I do apologize.

KOB
I'm not trying to redefine "responsible." Women are free to choose to do what they want with themselves (have sex and get impregnated), and they're responsible for whatever choices they subsequently make.

oops
"disuade" should be "persuade"

sorry, I'm a picture straightener

To Jeff
Maybe I am using a broad brush but since this is a thread discussion I don't have the room to go into a 10 to 15 page research paper on the subject. :)

And you are right, we are going a little off topic as well.

I guess the simplist and most percise way to describe my morality is that if I was in the other person's shoes would I want that to happen to me. If yes, then its okay. If not, then it is not okay. If I was a woman, would I want to have as many options as I can to come to terms with pregnancy. Yes, I would. Abortion is one of those possible options.

As for the child...
In an earlier statement I said that a human being is the sum of his or her intellect and memories. It is that in which makes us who we are, what makes us human. Someone asked when does a child becomes "human" by my definition and I have to say when he or she retains his or her first memory. That is when one becomes self aware. My first memory occured when I was one. I found a piece of metal and placed it in a wall socket. That is when I became aware of my existence... and electricity.

Thanks, Mike
Now, step into the unborn baby’s shoes. Would you want abortion to happen to you?

Re your 3:57 post, what would you say you were before your first memory?

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

KOB, "no one"
KOB, I'm glad you admit that ROE was settled in a way that did an end-run around the Constitution....that is a fact that tends to get lost in this debate. No One, if you want the "right" of Abortion, then, according to the Constitution, there is an Amendment process to accomplish it. Getting a group of seven who suddenly pull a "right" out of thin air isn't democratic,isn't Constitutional...which is exactly why this conflict has gone on for so long. Our Gov't is confined by the Constitution.....PERIOD. If you want the ability to kill babies, then go through the legal processes. Thats the problem with the "Liberal" Socialist-Fascists in this country....the Law applies to everyone--but them.

an interetsing feature of the article.
The survey mentioned above was put out by a group of pro-life groups. And 70% of its respondents think that abortion should be illegal except to save the life of the woman or not at all. The part of the population with this view is actually pretty small. (It is smaller than the part that would make an exception for rape and incest as an example).

So what the survey actually shows is that people who are pro-life on abortion are woefully misinformed about Roe v. Wade. It does not say much about the country in general. (And even what it says about the pro-life side may be misleading. It is a bit of silliness that one can come up with a meaningful grade based on percentage of a test. Any useful test has some system built in (usually the experience of the teacher) to give a sense of where the grades should fall. Otherwise one could make people more informed about Roe by simply picking out the easiest questions and giving them as the new test, so that test scores shoot higher. But of course no change in knowledge would have occurred.)

The actual argument
Somewhat going along with the ignorance about Roe among pro-life people noted above, it obviously does not help that people like Diaz misdescribe how the actual argument works.

Blackman did not begin with the three trimesters, but rather started with factors that gave the state interest in the abortion decision. It is probably unfortunate that he then illustrates this in terms of the trimesters.

Part of the point was that during the stages in which abortion is clearly safer for the mother than carrying the baby to term, the state cannot outlaw abortion and then pretend that it is doing so for the health of the mother. Given the briefs filed in the case he identified this with the first trimester point. That is probably a conservative estimate, and could be pushed later.

He also made an attempt to describe factors that give the state an interst in protecting the fetus. This produced his second trimester/third semester division, but has moved earlier since because of medical advances.

Similarly he did not assert that the fetus is not a person because he said so. He gave a lengthy history of the law with regard to fetuses and showed that until his decision there was no legal history of threating fetuses as persons. He refused to make up something with not history in law, although he was here being accused of the opposite.

Ex-Wyomingite
If, as you say, you are not qualified to comment on whether or not the unborn is an innocent human being, should not that alone make you err on the side of caution.

I find it disingeuous that you accuse me of being 'partisan' (whatever that means), and hold yourself up as not being partisan yet you use language that could have been lifted right out of a Kate Michaelman speech. Abortion is a 'procedure,' woman are 'determined not to cede authority over what goes on in their wombs."

Of course every abortion involves a woman. I've never heard the 50 million number but I have heard 40 million. Those "voting" for abortion can be significantly reduced when you consider many have had multiple abortions and many who have had abortions are now pro-life. I really can't see that this matters unless you think that morality is subject to a vote. If "50 million" Americans suddenly decided they wanted to own slaves again, would slavery be any less unjust?

Ex-Wyomingite
"Little historical evidence" suggesting that Americans were influenced by English abolitionists?

I found these in about five minutes

British Influence on the Abolition Movement in America by Frederick Douglass (http://www.yale.edu/glc/archive/1074.htm)


"The American abolitionism mimicked the British anti-slavery movement, borrowing wholesale its tactics and symbols and looking to its leaders, such as George Thompson, for advice and approval." (http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/british/brit-4.html)



But, as you say, we can agree to disagree.

The end result
The end result is Mario is just preaching to the choir and those who disagree are not being compelled by the arguments of pro-life.

So what's new? Einstein's definition of insanity is doing the same thing over-and-over again and expecting different results. Some columnist posted a column this week claiming the the reduction in abortions reflects pro-life arguments are swaying the general public. When I look up the hard facts, nothing could be further from the truth. Attitudes by Americans today on abortion poll exactly like they did in 1973 and have been consistent. Good news is that liberals haven't changed any minds either.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/35013.html
"American public opinion remains as divided as it was when Roe v. Wade was first decided. In 1975, a Gallup poll found that 54 percent thought abortion should be legal only under certain circumstances; 21 percent thought it should be legal in all circumstances; and 22 percent thought it should be illegal. In 2003, another Gallup poll saw these numbers shift to 57 percent; 24 percent; and 18 percent, respectively."



Conservatives need to retool on this subject.

Most Americans believe that abortion is immoral. Most Americans believe that abortion should be illegal in the 2nd and 3rd trimesters. A suggestion to the pro-life camp is take what it can get. Instead of demonizing liberals as the policy for being baby killers, start a program to get all 50 states to sign an amendment that makes abortion illegal in the 2nd and 3rd trimesters. Not 3/5's as required by the Constitution, all 50.

If such an amendment were handed to Congress, they would surely pass it and the required 3/5's of the states would be a slam dunk thereafter.

Leave the 1st trimester to the next generation. As it stands the current pro-life generation fighting abortion has done zippo to change American hearts and minds. They have been a complete abject failure and are in denial to that end.

Post Holer
Oh, I don't know

"Is This The Sound Of Pro-Choice Conceding Defeat?" at Newsbusters

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-finkelstein/2008/01/22/so und-pro-choice-conceding-defeat

Should Roe be reconsidered?
If Roe vs. Wade had been a criminal case, civil libertarians would demand that it be given another hearing. For instance:

- Norma McCorvey, alias Jane Roe, claimed she was raped. She now admits she never was raped.

- McCorvey's attorneys compounded her lie by saying she was gang raped.

- Bernard Nathanson and other "experts" testified that approximately 5,000 to 10,000 women were dying each year from "back alley" abortions. Nathanson later admitted that these figures were completely false.

- Ultrasonic technology, which has increased our knowledge of life in the womb, was not available in 1973.

In short, the whole Roe vs. Wade decision was based on perjury, falsified evidence, and obsolete medical knowledge. Why shouldn't it be given another hearing?

ElizabethBennet
It is not clear that an article on the best strategy for waging the pro-choice fight could reasonably be describes as "conceding defeat."

Mike, thanks for the answer
Mike writes: Wednesday, January, 23, 2008 11:11 AM

"Nope. There are several reasons why I choose not to have children is...

1: I don't feel right about bringing a child into this messed up joke of a planet."

Well, OK, if that works for you. Some of us think that the planet is OK, but are working on helping the people.

"2: I don't have the economic means to support a child."

Good reason now, but will that always be true?

"3: I do not wish to add to the overpopulation problem. Too many people. Too little resources."

Liberal myth - the people are the resources of a country; the rest is just dirt.

"4: I plan to remain single for the rest of my life."

Conclusion, not reason, but OK.

Au contraire, Post Holer
"Leave the 1st trimester to the next generation. As it stands the current pro-life generation fighting abortion has done zippo to change American hearts and minds."

"Zippo" would not be accurate. Most people don't care one way or the other (until their daughter needs one). Those that are aware see mostly the antics of the anti-abortion crowd and conclude they're quite mad. Moreover, their antics act as a rallying cry against the right.

No, the anti-abortion crowd is going backwards.

re: ElizabethBennet writes:
So are you dismissing the Gallup poll results outright?

There is a huge difference between opinion authored by people about their feelings and facts.

Polls show that between 55 and 60 percent of Americans do not want Roe overturned. That number hasn't changed in decades either.

The right wing is in complete denial of their ineffectiveness to change anybody's mind on the subject and arguments by individuals au contraire are meaningless.

Conservatives need to decide if feeling sanctimonious in calling liberals baby killers is more important than winning over the hearts and minds of the public at large. If actual change is the priority than changes in tactics that have produced no results are in order.

Although it is much apparent even in the postings here that pro-life people are more interest in being self-righteous than and superior to liberals than they are in actually affecting change.





Knight of Blahblah
Knob: "Hitler had the death penalty as punishment for the good Aryan women who had abortions."

Er... I havent addressed this at ALL. Idiot. Nor does it contradict the statement I quoted above regarding the Nazi policy on abortion for "lesser races".... Jezzz.

re: ElizabethBennet writes:
So are you dismissing the Gallup poll results outright?

There is a huge difference between opinion authored by people about their feelings and facts.

Polls show that between 55 and 60 percent of Americans do not want Roe overturned. That number hasn't changed in decades either.

The right wing is in complete denial of their ineffectiveness to change anybody's mind on the subject and arguments by individuals are meaningless.

Conservatives need to decide if feeling sanctimonious in calling liberals baby killers is more important than winning over the hearts and minds of the public at large. If actual change is the priority than changes in tactics that have produced no results are in order.

Although it is much apparent even in the postings here that pro-life people are more interest in being self-righteous than and superior to liberals than they are in actually affecting change.

MellorSJ2
"No, the anti-abortion crowd is going backwards."

I suppose killing the unborn is your idea of "progress"?

re: MellorSJ2 writes:
You can claim anything you want.

For example, I'll claim the Easter Bunny is against abortion.

Polls by Gallup, Pew and many other institutions show that American public opinion about abortion hasn't changed.

Let's see, either I go with Mellor's proclamations or I believe endless years of polling and survey.

Umm, yup, I'll stick with the polls and surveys, thank you very much.

Your post is nothing more than a liberal, feel good, kum by ah singing moment.

Read it and weep, Post Holer
From the Harris Poll published a couple of months ago: " * A quarter (25%) favor permitting abortion in "all circumstances", 52 percent favor abortion is "some circumstances" and 20 percent do not favor abortion in any circumstances. These opinions have not shifted much in the past year;
* While it is perhaps not surprising that most Democrats (63%) favor Roe v. Wade and half of Republicans (51%) oppose it, substantial percentages disagree. Over four in ten (45%) Republicans favor Roe v. Wade and a third (33%) of Democrats oppose it;
* Interestingly, the percentage of Republicans who favor it has significantly increased (from 37 percent to the current 45 percent) in the past year and the percentage of Democrats who oppose the U.S. Supreme Court decision has decreased (from 43 percent to the current 33 percent);
* Heading into the 2008 election year, it is worth noting that a majority of Independents (61 to 36 percent) favors Roe v. Wade. In 2006 the comparable views of Independents were 56 to 37 percent."

Lower down in the same article (I can't copy the table), we see: "Do you favor laws that would make it more difficult for a woman to get an abortion, favor laws that would make it easier to get an abortion or should no change be made to existing abortion laws?"

Make it harder: 42%
Make it easier: 16%
No change: 38%
Not sure: 4%


http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID= 830

More for Mike
"Roe vs. Wade forces nothing. You can choose not to have an abortion. "

---unless you’re the baby. Or the father.

And more...
Wouldn’t think of letting you get by with saying there is no god. Of course there is a god, right here in his very own words:

... human life begins when an individual becomes aware of one's existence. Human life begins when one begins to question the nature of him or herself and the environment he or she is in. What makes one human is the ability to reason, think logically, and develop good problem solving capabilities. That is what makes a human.

Before that we are just another primate. No more and no less.
. . .
An unborn is not human in my books so it is has not developed as a person yet.
. . .
In an earlier statement I said that a human being is the sum of his or her intellect and memories. It is that in which makes us who we are, what makes us human. Someone asked when does a child becomes "human" by my definition and I have to say when he or she retains his or her first memory. That is when one becomes self aware.
. . .

Mike, in my opinion, “god” gets the right to define human existence. Since you have, quite dogmatically, chosen to define it for all of us, this IS proof, not written in a book, either, but on the LIVING pages of the WWW.