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Thursday, December 13, 2007
Mario Diaz :: Townhall.com Columnist
Judge Declares Declaration of Independence Unconstitutional
by Mario Diaz
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Okay, so the headline is a bit premature, but it’s the logical precursor to the legal philosophy of liberal extremists, isn’t it?

Ever since the Supreme Court erroneously elevated Thomas Jefferson’s “wall of separation between church and state” metaphor to a constitutional doctrine in the 1947 landmark decision Everson v. Board of Education, a growing sort of legal fog has been setting in on our constitutional religious freedoms, ending in what can only be described as a requirement of government hostility towards religion.  This is, of course, not only a far cry from what our founding fathers intended, including Thomas Jefferson — a staunch religious liberty advocate — but it is a far cry from what “We the people” intended when the Constitution was ratified. 

The many perils of reading into the Constitution a “wall of separation between church and state” where none exists came as no surprise to many of us.  Nothing good ever comes from deviating from the clear text and context of the Constitution.  Many well-intentioned, smart people have argued for a “living, breathing” Constitution, changing with the times and looking for small immediate “advances,” but this interpretation has only one result in the long run: tyranny. 

In no other area of law has this proven truer than when it comes to our religious liberty.  In the last sixty years, we have seen a constant attack on prayer in schools, the Ten Commandments, the sanctity of life, Christmas, Christian symbols and even religious doctrines.  In many instances, our religious rights have been so inhibited that the result is exactly what the founding fathers where trying to prevent: the government dictating what the people can or can’t do when it comes to religion.

Because of their hostility toward religion and their unveiled hatred toward anything related to God, these extreme liberal scholars are forced to ignore history, precedent and facts and are forced to decide cases from what they feel is best for the country.  It is astonishing how they can go back in history and erect a temple for a distorted “wall of separation between church and state” phrase, while ignoring the text of the Constitution and the volumes of documents showing the people’s real concern when enacting the First Amendment.  If they want to go outside of the Constitution, you would think that they would look at the whole, and not one simple phrase, but that would be assuming that they are looking for what really happened and not for something to support what they believe is the “right thing.”

Their twisted logic puts them on very unstable footing because there is no foundation.  They are making law with the times, with what feels right at the moment, and then trying to go back to make history fit their latest and greatest idea.

This is why they seem to virtually ignore the Declaration of Independence.  It’s too simple, too direct and too straightforward.  If they were to be honest, they would have to say unequivocally that the Declaration of Independence is unconstitutional.  After all, here is what this horrible, oppressive document says:

When, in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's GOD entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the Causes which impel them to the Separation.

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their CREATOR, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.[1]

“Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God,” “Endowed, by their Creator”?  Let’s pass a bill including this language today and see what happens.  The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) would bring suit before the vote was even cast; Michael Newdow’s daughter would somehow be deeply affected by it, prompting him to bring yet another suit; and Barry Lynn would be invited to every major news show to “educate” us as to why this kind of rhetoric is okay as long as you keep it to yourself, but once you actually express it, well, then we have a problem.

But liberal scholars consistently encounter one little problem: there would be no Constitution without the Declaration of Independence.  This legal document gave notice to the international community that a new nation was being formed.  Without it there is no United States of America.  It gives us the legal right to enact a Constitution.  More important, it is a declaration of rights that no government can take away.

We are all still created equal and we are still endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights.  If our current government sought to trample these rights, if it were to become destructive, it is still “the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.”

The enemies of God in our government have a problem with the Declaration of Independence, and ignoring a problem does not make it go away — we learned that the hard way on September 11, 2001.

The Declaration of Independence is the foundation of our legal jurisprudence.  Indeed, it is the foundation of our country.  And in fact, it makes reference to what they hate the most, God.

So liberal activists should be truthful for once, or at least intellectually honest (remember, they believe there is no truth; everything is relative), and stop their little nonsensical lawsuits against “under God” in the pledge of allegiance, the 10 Commandments in the public square, “In God We Trust” in our coins, etc., and ask a judge (perhaps the brilliant Ninth Circuit) to declare, once and for all, the Declaration of Independence unconstitutional.

After that perhaps they can finally take their cases to the House of Lords.

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About The Author

Mario Diaz is the Policy Director for Legal Issues at Concerned Women for America.

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Grace...
"Four storm-related deaths in Indiana occurred when a van carrying a woman and her three daughters skidded into a pond in Carmel, Indiana. The vehicle was underwater when emergency crews Saturday night, authorities said."

State Rights Fantasy
Your state's rights fantasies remind me of a bunch of fools sitting around a bar after a Confederate civil war reenactment. Maybe there will be a state's right's revolution to undo stare decisis since FDR, but I kinda doubt it.

Until then, your dreams of religious bigotry of the "majority" will remain where they are right now...in the dustbin of history.

PS...if you don't think there should be a separation of church and state that means, what, a combo of the two? You don't seem like Anglicans...

Don't Tread On Me

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."

--Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545

Robert is right
Robert is right, however, if we look at "modern interpretation" by the Court. Until a 5/4 reversal of Gitlow and other precedent, I don't see much change in how this plays out.

As long as Gitlow and other cases stand as "stare decisis" then the lower courts and even Supreme Court, is bound to continue the rulings like they are. Supposedly they can "amend those precedents" without fully reversing them but that too seems unlikely.

Unless we return to being a Republic and not continue as a National representative democracy that "controls" the states, like we are, with the Court we have, I don't see any significant change happening soon.

Federal funding
If a school receives federal funding then it is an extension of the Federal government and probably should play by the "rules" of the U.S. constitution that applies to the use of federal powers and money is power.

If the school receives only money from the State sources, then the State Constitution is the criteria that must be followed if we abide by original intent in this area which held true for almost 175 years in this.

We still have two states with religious tests that ban atheists from holding office. All 50 have God in their Constitutions. Having a school in a state that has God in its constitution as a reflection of the mind of the majority is constitutional as long as that states constitution isn't violated when the school allows a student to express his own opinion.

For 175 years (about) the majority in each school district could decide through the election of school boards how much of the will and mind of the majority would be taught in a public school. The school was to be a reflection of the desires of the majority, not any minority. But, any minority should be free and many did, take their children from public school and enter them in private schools if they didn't like what the majority wanted taught.

We are a Republic of "majorities (states)" that self-governed in all but a few powers granted the Federal government and that included all religious issues that Jefferson said, ""Certainly no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the General [i.e., federal] Government. It must then rest with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority."

Note: he wrote that in 1808, long after the Constitution was ratified. He knew where the line was drawn. The Fed couldn't, but the state could.

John Acton: Hysterical
Again: CONTEXT: (And for the support of this Declaration, "with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence", we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.)

John, sorry to have to repeat myself, but "they are the affirmation of the writer's OWN VIEW of what he believes to be the source of rights. They are not a declaration that those views must be shared and supported by the people covered by the Constitution."

Meaning that the rights are unalienable regardless of the views of the person writing or reading the words. They cannot be given or taken away, only upheld or violated. The Constitution is laid out as their protector. Thw words you quote, put back into their context, clearly show that they were the personal views of the writer, and NOTHING was put in place as a mandate to government that the "source of rights" must hereafter be cited, acknowledged or worshipped. The Founders were very clear about the difference.

BTW, regarding "of, by and for the people", I was loosely quoting the Gettysburg Address, not the Constitution, but we agree on the characterization of "democracy".






Separation is a Federal Issue
We currently have two states that still ban atheists from holding office. N.C. and Tenn. Only the Federal Government was banned from having a religious relationship in legislation. But, could and did, as pointed out, hire Chaplains, take oaths on the Bible, buy Bibles for distribution to native Americans to promote religion (in general, not a specific one), pass out the "Jefferson Bible (a copy and paste of the teachings of Jesus)" to new Congressmen for decades about 1900, have prayer in legislative meetings, place God on our coins, etc.

But, the state could and did and do, legislate religious based laws as long as the "majority" hold those beliefs in common. And, even restrict office to people who believe in God.

We live under two Constitutions. One limits Federal power and the other is the limits on State and local government but does allow the people in each state to decide how far they will go with religious tests, laws, and beliefs.

Or rather, did, until we began to "incorporate" the Bill of Rights to usurp the State Constitution's protection of rights, in 1925 (Gitlow vs. NY.)

That is how a Republic used to work and how in 1913 and 1925 we basically destroy our ability to be a Republic.

Greenhornet
Yes, The Declaration of Independence is very interesting. It is very important to understand that it is indeed a legal document and is often accepted as such by our judiciary.

The case of Mr. Davis' treason is also interesting. The CSA did not issue its "Declaration" until secession was already effected unilaterally by several states and enforced by armed insurrection.

It is also quite interesting to juxtapose the military and political careers of Generals Washington and R.E. Lee.

People Who Protest Religion

Are Yap Dogs

And would get nowhere unless there were a whole coterie of yap dogs in the judiciary - armed with vicious, liberal milk teeth.

Kick the teeth in, sweep the carcass off the deck, and live life to its fullest.

My everlasting contempt, disdain, and disregard for liberals - especially in the courts. Figure out some way to send them home to Beelzebub, their soulmate.


Re: Hysterical Historians
"Many other parts of the Constitution are interpreted everyday. They are not re-written."

And the Constitutional authority to do this?

"I suppose you object to John Marshall?"

And just who made him king?

Re: Clueless in America
"Now you're a hypocrite; add that to your long list of accomplishments."

Perhaps, but that is better than being totally "clueless" as apparently you are!

Re: Hysterical Historians
"Honest question, what drives the religious right to push their religion on us?"

Frankly, I could care less, as that's between you and God, IMMHO. Of course, an EQUALLY "honest question" is what drives the "irreligious left" to push their "religion" on the vast majority of Americans?

"There has never been an atheist inquisition in the US nor have we started an atheist crusade."

I guess you never heard of the Spanish Revolution and the "so-call" Spanish Repubicans' purge of nuns and priests by the "atheist communists" that killed far more in a few years than were killed in all 300 years of the Spanish Inquisition? You appear to either be terribly myoptic or simply "Historically Challenged"

"I never have seen atheist protesting outside a church."

You must live a very sheltered life.

"My Catholic in laws wants prayer to start the school day but in 18 years I never once seen them pray before they start their day (well unless you consider Fox News a religious experience :-). I just don't understand why."

And what am I to believe, that your "Catholic in laws" are somehow the "norm". If you you want an anecdote how about this one from my experience. When I was in Public High School, way back be "O'Hare - goddess of American Atheism" got the Warren (Republican appointee as I recall) Court to ban prayer from ALL PUBLIC SCHOOLS, I do not recall anyone protesting against our daily "Bible Reading and Prayer". I also do not recall ever hearing about anyone, in our racially mixed and majority black school, bringing a firearm to school or anyone in any school in the country being shot to deah by their fellow students. Could it possibly be harder to murder someone that you pray with?

Hypocrite!
"Obviously, you are clueless, or you would stoop so low!"

Now you're a hypocrite; add that to your long list of accomplishments.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"It is most likely unconstitutional but hey, if this keeps you happy and you keep it out of our schools then I not going to make a big deal out of it. I just wish they would change our money from "In God we trust" to 'In Gods we trust', bad policy to leave a god out you know."

Okay, please provide the Article, Chapter and Verse (Ooops! Sorry) Clause that makes it so. Is it possible that Congress that passed our Constitution to the States for ratification, didn't know that their Chaplin was "unconstitutional". Obviously it must be some sort of "Stealth Provision".

Taliban in America


So you are against Judicial review, as I thought.
That's fine, but why be so disingenuous about it?

As such, you're also against common law, which builds law over decisions over time (lemon test, stare decisis). Shall we do away with common law which is the basis of stare decisis? It's not in the Constitution. It would take too long to explain to you the difference between statutory law and common law.


Re: Hysterical Historians
"So, let them correct their great "mistake" i.e., the separation of church and state. Then it can all be blended together which is the dream of religious biggots everywhere!"

Whose this "them" to which you refer? Perhaps you would explain. Certainly you cannot refer to the Federal Judiciiary, as Framer and Federalist Hamilton stated clearly in the Federalist 81, to wit:

"In the first place, there is not a syllable in the plan under consideration which DIRECTLY empowers the national courts to construe the laws according to the spirit of the Constitution, ... ."

So please, tell me just who is this "them" to which you refer.

Love your "Taliban strawmen" and your continue use of the "ad hominid". Obviously, you are clueless, or you would stoop so low!

Re: Hysterical Historians
OH DEAR!

"They interpret, not change. You seem to have issues with the Separation of Powers, too."

Okay, then please provide the "Article, Section and Clause" of our Constitution that EMPOWERS the Judicial Branch to "interpret" the Constitution. BTW, Alexander Hamilton, Framer and Federalist, couldn't find, and even opined that it didn't exist in Federalist 81.

"Your take is unique, I give you that. I wasn't aware that the Right actually is against the existence of the Supreme Court."

Actually, I am in very good company, beginning with the Federalists who were the Framers of our Constitution. Think about it, who those Patriots that overthrow the monarch, King George III, really empower 9 unelected, life tenured POLITICAL APPOINTMENTS, to rewrite our Constitution on a "whim"? Not that is it truly a "bizarre" and totally unsubstantiated idea.

Of course, you can prove me wrong, by pointing me to the Article, Section and Clause of our Constitution that provides for such empowerment. I am patiently waiting.

Bet you won't be when it goes to the far right!"

Taliban in America

So, let them correct their great "mistake" i.e., the separation of church and state. Then it can all be blended together which is the dream of religious biggots everywhere!

Your authority for blending church and state are chaplains?

You must be Anglican since you dream of state religion. Not very loyal to the Declaration of Independence.

God Save the King! You're a Republican, but apparently not a republican.




Re: Hysterical Historians
"The separation is a completely logical explanation of the establishment clause as is the 'lemon test' currently utilized by the Supreme Court."

"Establishment" and "Separation" are two completely different concepts. I am not aware of the Congress ever attemptiing to "establish" any religion. I am aware, that since the first Congress assembled under the new Constitution that Federal government paid the Chaplains to perform "religious" duties, such as offering prayers, in both the US House and Senate. Just how do you and the Supreme, "Lemon Test" or no, explain this obvious paradox? Hmmm! Might the Supremes be wrong, as they were in the Dred Scott Decison (to name just one of the most glaring and ugly)?

Oh, dear!

They interpret, not change. You seem to have issues with the Separation of Powers, too.

Your take is unique, I give you that. I wasn't aware that the Right actually is against the existence of the Supreme Court.

Bet you won't be when it goes to the far right!

Re: Hysterical Historians
"the minute one starts to perform acts of religion at a public gathering on state property..

"that is different."

Where is this written? Not in our Constitution, surely! If not, kindly provide the Article, Section and Clause stating so!

BTW, how do explain the Chaplains, paid by the Federal government since the year our Constitution was first enacted, that "perform acts of religion" in the US House and Senate Chambers? Hmmm! Obviously some sort of paradox!

Re: Taliban for America
The separation is a completely logical explanation of the establishment clause as is the "lemon test" currently utilized by the Supreme Court.

The Federalist Papers are not the law of the land.

Many other parts of the Constitution are interpreted everyday. They are not re-written. I suppose you object to John Marshall?

The plain meaning is a separation. What's troubling is that you wish it meant otherwise.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"The Separation of Church and State is the law of the land, unless you doubt the validity of Stare Decisis."

Really? And why it take until 1947 for the Supreme to find in our Constitution? Can you find in our Constitution? BWT, according to the one of primary Framers of our Constitution, "Stare Decisis" cannot change the "plain language" of our Constitution. See: Federalist 81.

The most despotic branch of the Federal government, as Tom Jefferson prophetized, is now the Supremes, the home of "Stare Decisis".

BTW, what Article, Section, or Clause "endowed" these 9 unelected, life tenured tyrannts with the "power" to change our Constitution "willy-nilly" by "Stare Decisis" when the Framers SPECIFICALLY provided Article V to as the ONLY means to change it?

Wrongo roberto's stupid posts again!
.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"Your government is no longer "of, by and for the people", it is the people "of, by and for the government", and whomever can lay his hands on the strings gets to pull them."

And just where in the Constitution of the United States of America or in its Declaration of Independence, do you find the expression: "of, by and for the people"? Of course, our, actually, according to our Founders, any government, is solely established to "secured these right" which they found to be "endowed" to all "mankind" by their Creator. These "Creator Endowed, Unalienable Rights" included "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness (Property)", and they believed that this was, in fact, the "Self-evident Truth".

As for your observation regarding the current condition of our government - this is the inevitable outcome when a government ceases to be a "Republic" and metastasizes into a "Democracy". Virtually every Founder would have told you this, and many, in fact, did.

To Grumpy

Keep your childish myths where they belong...in the church. Leave the rest out of it.

Or, send your brain-washed kids to religious school.

But alas, no, you won't be satisfied with that because you want others to believe as you. Why? Because a plural society threatens your dogma.

Or better yet, just convert to Islam and you can move to Saudi Arabia where you won't have to think.

To John Acton:
The Separation of Church and State is the law of the land, unless you doubt the validity of Stare Decisis.

Your reliance on state constitutions is bizarre and irrelevant.

That you support state sponsored Christianity is revealing as it shows that you and your ilk really want to force religion on everyone...like the Taliban.

That Congress can't make laws establishing religion means there is a separation of church and state. What is so baffling is why you want your state to help you support religion.

Afraid those myths can't stand on their own?


Re: Hysterical Historians
"And where in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence is the government empowered to espouse religion at all? The Constitution bestows no such power. The examples cited are cited often, but always removed from the context of their use. They are the affirmation of the writer's own view of what he believes to be the source of rights. They are not a declaration that those views must be shared and supported by the people covered by the Constitution."

Okay, just what is the source of YOU "Unalienable Rights"?

Considering that the signers of the Declaration of Indpendence were arguable signing their own "death warrants", wouldn't be LOGICALLLY that they would extremely careful as to words and their mean in the meaning, to which they affixed their "mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor"?

BTW, what did they mean by "with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence"? Hmmm!

Chuck:
1st Amendment Rights are personal, unless they are paid for out of money seized from someone else's paycheck. Sorry, but every infringement on the right to property which has occurred since the founding has necessarily placed limits on your rights of "public" religious worship.

Your government is no longer "of, by and for the people", it is the people "of, by and for the government", and whomever can lay his hands on the strings gets to pull them.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"This author carefully distorts history. Much is wrong with his narrative. From an empiracist viewpoint, however, he does ignore the bias against Catholics that was endemic in some parts of the country and some times."

Interestingly, the champions of the "Separation of Church and State" ignore that "empirical" historic fact, that this unconstituional concept was originally promoted by James G. Blaine, former Speaker of the United States House of Representatives, anti-Catholic bigot, and hero of the "Know Nothings" that opposed LEGAL IMMIGRANTION and acceptance of freed blacks. Rep. Blaine proposed a failed Constitutional Amendment designed to prevent the States from supporting Catholic Schools across the country that were educating many, mostly poor, black and immigrant children, and highlighting for the first time the concept of "Speparation of Church and State". (Hmmm! If already in the Constitution, why was his "Separation of Church and State" Amendment necessary? Oh, well!)

Subsequently, "Blaine" Amendments were passed to of many of the State Constitutions, thereby forcing State taxpayers to start kicking in much more in taxes to fund the failed "Govmit Skools" that are failing to properly educate our children today. In perhaps the perfect example of "unintended consequences", the Protestant Fundamentalists of the 1870's overwhelming supported these bigoted amendments while today, these same Fundamentals, are leading the charge for their repeal. Go figure!

Here's a thought, Robert
"I just dont care to have you get up at a School commencment and force me to pray along."

Fine, don't pray: just keep your mouth shut. You are capable of that, I assume?


"Nothing good ever comes from
deviating from the clear text and context of the Constitution." Amen.

And where in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence is the government empowered to espouse religion at all? The Constitution bestows no such power. The examples cited are cited often, but always removed from the context of their use. They are the affirmation of the writer's own view of what he believes to be the source of rights. They are not a declaration that those views must be shared and supported by the people covered by the Constitution.

"(N)o man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief" ~James Madison

Re: The Pride of being dumb
"Regardless of the fact that I might be beaten to within an inch of my life, I have always kind of had the notion to go to a high school football game in Texas, bring my boom box and when most everyone else is saying a prayer play my boom box very loud.

"Do you think that those saying their prayer should have reason to be offended by my actions and if so why? Consistently speaking what should be the prayer making people's response to me?"

Asside from the fact that you would be mostly be guilty of violating any local ordinance regarding "distrubing the peace", only a proud liberal would equate quiet praying with boom box noise! Why don't you try "play(ing) (your) boom box very loud" in you backyard and see what your neighbors reaction might be!

Re: Hysterical Historians
"Of course it is unconstitutional in a public school -- it was foisted by crazed right-wingers because they know if you called in school prayer it would be struck down. Don't tread on me -- go to a religious school if you want to brain wash your kids."

Then kindly explain this:

"Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged." The Northwest Ordinance 1787 ordained by the United States in Congress assembled meeting in Philadelphia - the very same Congress that passed the Constitution of the United Staes of America and sent it to the 13 States for ratification.

Why wasn't the "Separtion of Church and State" Clause of our Congress not discovered until 1947, especially since that schools in every State had both Bible reading and prayers every school day of the school year? Can you find and point to this Clause anywhere in our Constitution? Considering that most States in 1789 had State-supported Religions, by what rationale do you make the case that the Constitution of the United States of America forbade this, as Amendment by the Bill of Rights?

Re: Hysterical Historians
"Not even a worthy effort. When the Revolutionary War was ended, the States had ALREADY established a "Perpetual Union" with the Articles of Confederation WHEREBY the States CEDED the power of treaty and such to federal government."

Considering that the Articles of Confederation where drafted and passed by the very SAME CONTINENTAL CONGRESS that Drafted and Passed the Declaration of Independence, in your OPINION, by what rationale does the the Articles have anymore legal validity than does the Declaration. Please provide your hysterical answer!

"You still choose to conveniently ignore the fact that the States had ratified the Articles of Confederation BEFORE that Treaty."

AND you continue to ignore the historical fact that the Articles of Confederation were drafted and passed by the 2nd Continental Congress, the very same political entity that drafted and passed the Declaration of Independence.

Again, what makes one document, unanimously passed by the same body representing the 13 British Colonies/States that passed the other document, invalid and not legally binding. If one is valid and legally binding, than so is the other. If one is invalid and non-leagal (as you hysterically suggest), than so is the other. No other logical solution is possible. You are both "legally and historically challenged".

Of course, NO STATE acted unilaterally in dealing with Great Britain, after the 2nd Continental Congress unanimously passed and dispatched the Declaration of Independence to King George III. Why do suppose that is, if all of the 13 States didn't believe that it was a legally binding "contract" in which they renounce the sovereignty of British Crown over their States to which they were a party as being part of the United States of American clearly identified in the document?

To RA
How Christian of you...hoping for the apocolypse? Bet you have a lovely collection of survival magazines.

The Declaration of Independence
It's not law, it's a political document expressing independence from Great Britain. Oooooh, it says Creator, so that means we can shove religiion down everyone's throat. Give me a break. Keep your religion to yourself. Why is it so important to make others believe what you do. Can't you stay in them pretty little churces?

Moment of Silence is Code
Of course it is unconstitutional in a public school -- it was foisted by crazed right-wingers because they know if you called in school prayer it would be struck down. Don't tread on me -- go to a religious school if you want to brain wash your kids.

CT, you've slwallowed the coolaide
Liberals haven't interfered with free expression of religion. You're talking rot.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"You should. It's tired and worn out."

But true and factual, unlike urine!

"I already have. You choose to ignore them."

Please show your proof that the 13 British States/Colonies acted as independent sovereign entities in the following areas:

1. Did not believe the Continental Congress Represented them in International Affairs, especially dealing with England and France.

2. Had separate Treaty Negotiation with Britain and France.

3. Did not support the Continental Army with men, materiel and finance.

4. Acted independently in its dealings with othewr Nations.

5. Did not accept the terms laid out in the Declaration of Independence.

Also provide your documented PROOF that ANY of the 13 British States/Colonies rejected the Declaration of Independence. You can't, so you don't. Hence you lose AGAIN!


Anti-Christain Pagans Lieing!?
Lieing, subverting the constitution, denying other Americans their constitutionally guaranteed rights.

The current leftist pagan is no different than the communists they love or the Nazis they hate.

The solution is easy. Start a civil war and kill 500,000 of them. All of a sudden the judges would see a different constitution.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"Legal authority to enter into that treaty as a Nation was established with the Articles of Confederation. It is essentially the same legal authority to enter into treaties (ie: binding contracts) that is enumerated in our current Constitution."

Please a list of the States/Colonies that repudiated the "Declartion of Independence. Was the Continental Congress not the representative body selected by the 13 States/Colonies to represent them in matters involving the British Crown, at leasts ALL THEIR REPRESENTATIVE UNINAMOUSLY AGREED to the terms of the Declaration of Independence.

Kindly provide all evidence you have that the 13 British States/Colonies of North America:

1. Did not believe the Continental Congress Represented them in International Affairs, especially dealing with England and France.

2. Had separate Treaty Negotiation with Britain and France.

3. Did not support the Continental Army with men, materiel and finance.

4. Acted independently in its dealings with othewr Nations.

5. Did not accept the terms laid out in the Declaration of Independence.

If a did consider the term and conditions of the Declaration of Independence BINDING, kindly provide the historical of said rejection.

Also, in this regards, if not through the sovereignty appropriated as signatory to the Declaration, from whence did any colony of the British Crown get the sovereignty to make the Articles of Confederation its BINDING law of matters delegated to the Congress of the United States of America? Without the Declaration, the British was the legal sovereign over all of ITS colonies in North America.

re: John Acton
John Acton wrote:

"... I rest my case! ..."

>>

You should. It's tired and worn out.

-----

"... If you have ANY factual historical records of the period showing otherwise - kindly produce them."

>>

I already have. You choose to ignore them.

Typical.

re John Acton
John Acton wrote:

"The 'historical record' of the actions of ALL PARTIES concerned highlight the 'truth' that they all, including the British Crown in their final defeat, considered the Declaration of Independence to be a legal and binding document. Nothing in the record shows otherwise..."

>>

For literate people it surely does. The simple fact that there is NO BINDING LANGUAGE in the Declaration of Independence shows otherwise.

-----

"... Did the 13 United States of America create a single 'Continental Army', supplying it with troops, arms and finance, and participating in and selecting its leader? ..."

>>

Nope. The Continental Congress -- a body reminiscent of the U.N. as a group of diplomats from independent states -- did by mutual consent of the Several States.

-----

"... Did any of the States at the end of the Revolutionary seek and receive separates terms and Treaty of Peace with British Crown? ..."

>>

Not even a worthy effort. When the Revolutionary War was ended, the States had ALREADY established a "Perpetual Union" with the Articles of Confederation WHEREBY the States CEDED the power of treaty and such to federal government.

-----

"... Did all 13 States accept the Treaty of 1782 negotiated in their behalf by the representive of the Congress of the United States? ..."

>>

You still choose to conveniently ignore the fact that the States had ratified the Articles of Confederation BEFORE that Treaty.

-----

"... Is not creating an Army, frighting War, and making a treaty of peace the normal authority of a National Government? ..."

>>

They are also normal authorities of MULTIPLE "nations"/"states" fighting a war TOGETHER. The fact that they did ANY of these things (prior to Ratifying the Articles of Confederation) proves absolutely nothing.

re: John Acton
John Acton wrote:

"So, just how would you read this paragraph of that document?..."

>>

Note the continued use of the word "ought" in conjunction with "are" and "is". It declared what should be. In other words, it declared intent.

-----

"... What does the turn of phrase 'UNITED STATES' mean to you? ..."

>>

Pay attention to the capitalization in the document. The word "united" is NOT capitalized. It expresses that the states are of one purpose, NOT JOINED as in a "Union".


BOTH joining as in a formal "Union" and capitalizing "United" did not occur until the the Articles of Confederation.


-----

"... The 2nd Continental Congress adopted both the Declaration of Independence and Articles of Confederation..."

>>

But NOT at the same time. The Declaration, as we all know, was "ratified" on July 4th, 1776. The Articles of Confederation were agreed to by Congress on November 15, 1777 (more than a year AFTER the DoI was signed) and ratified on March 1, 1781.

-----

"... If it did not have the authority of the 13 United States to adopt the first document, why would have the authority to adopt the second? ..."

>>

Strawman. No one has said they DID NOT have the authority.

-----

"... Or are you also making the case that the Articles of Confederation is 'little more than a declaratory letter of intent. It was not binding on the Crown.'"

>>

As a matter of fact, the Articles of Confederation were as binding upon the Crown as the Constitution of the United States is binding on the Prime Minister of England.

Which is to say, not at all. The Articles of Confederation were a binding agreement -- a compact; contract; etcetera -- between the Several States. The Crown was NOT a party at all.


re: John Acton
John Acton wrote:

"The question was never nthat it was 'binding on the Crown', but whether it was considered bining (sic) the sovereign 13 British Colonies/States in North America!..."

>>

And, of course, it was not. There is no language in the Declaration of Independence binding the colonies/states to anything. It merely stated their unified intent for independence.

The states were not "bound" until they ratified the Articles of Confederation.


The Declaration of Independence was a marriage proposal -- it stated intent without forming a union.

The Articles of Confederation was the wedding -- it carried out the intent and FORMED the Union.


-----

"... Of course, the Declaration became 'binding on the Crown' as a result of the Revolutionary fought under its auspices."

>>

Frist, the Declaration of Independence was NEVER made "binding on the Crown" as there is NO binding language in it AT ALL. It WAS, as the title implies, a DECLARATION and nothing more.

It was NOT a treaty. It was NOT legislation. It was NOT a constitution. It was NOT a compact. It was NOT a contract. It was NOT a charter. It was a DECLARATION, and nothing more.



Second, what was BINDING on the Crown was the Treaty of Paris (NOT the "Contract Between the King and the Thirteen United States of North America, signed at Versailles July 16, 1782." that you cited). The Treaty of Paris was signed September 3, 1783.

http://americanhistory.about.com/library/docs/bltreatyparis .htm
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/britain/paris.h tm

So before you start throwing out ad hominems like "Hysterical Historians", you really ought to do your research.


Re: Hysterical Historians
The "historical record" of the actions of ALL PARTIES concerned highlight the "truth" that they all, including the British Crown in their final defeat, considered the Declaration of Independence to be a legal and binding document. Nothing in the record shows otherwise.

Did the 13 United States of America create a single "Continental Army", supplying it with troops, arms and finance, and participating in and selecting its leader? Did any of the States at the end of the Revolutionary seek and receive separates terms and Treaty of Peace with British Crown? Did all 13 States accept the Treaty of 1782 negotiated in their behalf by the representive of the Congress of the United States? Is not creating an Army, frighting War, and making a treaty of peace the normal authority of a National Government?

I rest my case!

If you have ANY factual historical records of the period showing otherwise - kindly produce them.

Re: Hysterical Historians
So, just how would you read this paragraph of that document?

"We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor."

What does the turn of phrase "UNITED STATES" mean to you? The issue of sovereignty the individual STATES remained even after the drafting and ratification of our Constitution. The States' governments were not "dissolved" the Constitution, anymore then was their sovereignty relinquished. Like the Articles of Confederation, our Constitution merely created a Federal government with limited and defined, mainly National Defensive and International Relations, powers and authorities freely given it by the sovereign States and their People.

The 2nd Continental Congress adopted both the Declaration of Independence and Articles of Confederation. If it did not have the authority of the 13 United States to adopt the first document, why would have the authority to adopt the second? Or are you also making the case that the Articles of Confederation is "little more than a declaratory letter of intent. It was not binding on the Crown."

Dear Kaos:
Regardless of the fact that I might be beaten to within an inch of my life, I have always kind of had the notion to go to a high school football game in Texas, bring my boom box and when most everyone else is saying a prayer play my boom box very loud.

Do you think that those saying their prayer should have reason to be offended by my actions and if so why? Consistently speaking what should be the prayer making people's response to me?

Re: Hysterical Historians
"The simple fact is that the Declaration of Independence was, powerful as it may have been, little more than a declaratory letter of intent. It was not binding on the Crown. And, though the signers and the colonies mutually agreed to aid each other, even pledging their lives and fortunes, there was no BINDING language that committed the colonies to anything with regards to 'union'."

The question was never nthat it was "binding on the Crown", but whether it was considered bining the sovereign 13 British Colonies/States in North America! Of course, the Declaration became "binding on the Crown" as a result of the Revolutionary fought under its auspices.

Constitutional Rebuttal Part II
(Pesky 200 character limit!)

Matt might think his parents did things which on the whole made it harder for him, or did nothing.
Matt might think his teacher is an idiot who couldn’t teach Kindergarteners to count to three.
Matt thinks God doesn’t exist.

After all that the Constitution hasn’t been violated and neither you nor Bob has had your Rights infringed. Matt doesn’t have a right not to be offended. Only someone with an agenda would argue that a Valedictorian speech is anything but the speaker’s opinion and that it should be censured for religious references. Only someone with an agenda would argue that if the Valedictorian asks for people to join him or her in a prayer of thanks to God it is actually the federal government directing the crowd to pray.

Constitutional Rebuttal Part II
(Pesky 200 character limit!)

Matt might think his parents did things which on the whole made it harder for him, or did nothing.
Matt might think his teacher is an idiot who couldn’t teach Kindergarteners to count to three.
Matt thinks God doesn’t exist.

After all that the Constitution hasn’t been violated and neither you nor Bob has had your Rights infringed. Matt doesn’t have a right not to be offended. Only someone with an agenda would argue that a Valedictorian speech is anything but the speaker’s opinion and that it should be censured for religious references. Only someone with an agenda would argue that if the Valedictorian asks for people to join him or her in a prayer of thanks to God it is actually the federal government directing the crowd to pray.

Constitutional rebuttal
Robert writes: Friday, December, 14, 2007 12:19 PM

Then they can find a way
the flash writes: Friday, December, 14, 2007 11:55 AM

If the validictorian wants to pray during his speech to the class, it may even enlighten those in the audience who do not believe in religion to question whether or not there is some added value in prayer.
...

of the graduation is it? If it is then the purpose has become one of religion and that is not allowed under The Constitution by a public institution.

Speeches should be focused on the purpose of the meeting/assembly. If one is graduating from a religious school then the religious aspects of the school have played a role in the cirriculem and addressing it is a valid concern.

Go to a non religious school a public school with no religious thread through it and well there is no value in it.

++++
I’ll go with “Jim” for the Valedictorian and “Matt” for the offended audience member.

Jim talks about the support he got from his parents and might blow them (or at least his mom) a kiss or ask them to stand up, to which a lot of people will probably clap.
Jim then thanks the teacher(s) who inspired him and if they are on the podium, might walk over and hug them.
Jim thanks God for the blessings in his life and giving him the courage and strength to carry on when he got weary (which BTW has nothing to do with a religious aspect in the curriculum) and then says a prayer of thanks.

How are these structurally different? Jim gives thanks to each of them and follows with a larger gesture. In each case the contribution is Jim’s perception.

re: the flash
the flash wrote:

"... Let us assume then, that the Declaration of Independence is not a legal document..."

>>

First, to be clear, I did NOT say that it is NOT a legal document. It does NOT, however, have the Force of Law as the Constitution, properly ratified treaties, and legislation passed pursuant to the Constitution do.

-------

"... are you saying that the Supreme Court may not refer to it or its intentions or look to it for guidance when deliberating matters of Constitutional law?"

>>

Nope. I never said that at all.

re: the flash
the flash wrote:

"... We have the right to do only what we ought to do, not anything we want to do, or anything that we can do. Restricting what we ought to be doing is a loss of freedom. Restricting what we ought not be doing (like making phone calls to known terrorists) is not a restriction of freedom..."

>>

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but...

"No man has the Natural Right to commit aggression against the Equal Rights of another and this is all from which the Law ought to restrain him." -- Thomas Jefferson


Properly understood, as Sovereign Individuals we OWN ourselves. As a result, we enjoy the natural authority to PEACEABLY Govern that which we own (ourselves, including our persons and our lives).

Depending upon your definition of "what we OUGHT to be [or not be] doing", you are wrong.


The natural authority to Self-Governance -- the Right to conduct our lives as we see fit SO LONG AS we do NOT commit aggression against the Equal Rights of Another -- grants us the authority to do things which OTHERS may think WE "OUGHT not to do". So long as we do NOT commit aggression, by initiating force or fraud, against the Equal Rights of Others, NO ONE has the Natural Authority to interfere with our Conduct just because they think we "OUGHT not".



Robert thinks people "OUGHT NOT" pray in his presence. He feels slighted and victimized (boo, hoo...). Should his tender sensitivities be allowed to dictate the Freedoms of others?

Robert - Opposes the Constitution
By your statements, you oppose the Constitution of the United States, declaring it "unconstitutional."

You oppose free speech at commencement ceremonies, suggesting that any speeches given can be censored.

You oppose the 9th and 10th Amendments by suggesting that the Constitution explicitly directs how state and local governments spend their tax dollars....collected without any authority granted by the Constitution of the United States but by laws enacted within the state or local municipality.

Your desire to abuse the powers of the Federal government and ignore the Bill of Rights is appalling.

I thought the role of SCOTUS was:
To apply the Constituion as it was written, not to interpret the Constitution as they saw fit.

Forry Liberty: A Qstn FOR you;
Dam spell chequers. Awl weighs making miss steaks!

It really is simple to understand!
The Declaration of Independence is the Spirit of the Law, The Constitution is the Letter of the Law!

As the rightful owners of this nation, we should take the oppotunity in 2008 to send the elites packing because they have perverted both of these documents to secure power for themselves.

To anyone interested in a look at how the elites have manipulated our founding principles to keep power, how they have promoted the liberal/conservative ideological battle that keeps the sheep in line, and finally, how they have convinced us that we have no other choice, nowhere else to go, I urge you to visit my website, JOEOLIVAFORPRESIDENT.ORG. Check out the site, why not? The elites have stolen our inheritance and in 2008, we should be about the task of reclaiming it, not wondering if we can once again trust the elites with even more power! Thanks, Joe

Liberty First: A question four you...
Let us assume then, that the Declaration of Independence is not a legal document, are you saying that the Supreme Court may not refer to it or its intentions or look to it for guidance when deliberating matters of Constitutional law?

Re: WHo makes law anyway?
"There is a way to make that statement without praying."

And why is that a problem? Especially in light of:

"Article the third [Amendment I]

"Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion; ... ."

Public prayer, even at a State or Local government event is "exercising religion". Many folks might argue preventing "public prayer", no matter the venue, also violates the "free speech" provision of the same Amendment. I don't, as I believe the "speech referred to in the 1st Amendment is POLITICAL SPEECH, and has nothing, whatsoever, to do with "prayer" or "pornography".

Anyway, the Framers, the silly buggers, thought that they had created a Constitution whereby ONLY the Legislative Branch could "Make Laws". Little did they suspect that the Federal Supreme Court would one day declare itself the Nation's "Supreme Legislature". Go figure!

re: Robert
Robert wrote:

"... People can express their faith all they want to...they just dont need to force it on a captive audience that is there for non religious events..."

>>

Unless you are physically restrained, you are NOT a captive audience.

Simply SAYING their prayer does NOTHING to FORCE you to BELIEVE as they do; to PARTICIPATE in their expression; or ANYTHING ELSE.


As much as your tender, sensitive ego may hate to hear it, HEARING someone ELSE pray does NOTHING to Harm you. It neither picks your pocket nor breaks your legs.


Their Freedom to Pray, EVEN IN PUBLIC, does NOT interfere with YOUR Freedoms in anyway whatsoever.



Crooked minds create crooked thoughts

And its impossible to bring birth to whats right and whats straight from twisted minds.
-------


the flash writes: 9:19 AM
Founding Fathers Fatal Flaw
The fatal flaw in the Counsitution and the Declaration of Independence that preceded it, was that they did not write it in Latin.
------
ts:
If this is not an attack on the Constitution, what is?
Every single judge that takes his seat is mandated to swear an OATH of Allegiance to UPHOLD
This very Document.
Why would one swear an Oath to uphold it if he is given free will to change it?
He isn't.
If he was given such a role, then he is no longer a Judge but King.
We have no royalty in America, we tossed their butts out of here.
-----


the flash writes:
Since Latin is a dead language, the meaning of the words at the time it died would still have the same meaning today. ..
------
ts:
None of the words have changed in their meaning.
Not a jot or a title.
What has changed is even fools have keyborads and can come and say anything.
Like you do.
Place yourself among the morons who say the Declaration of Independence is not a Legal Document.
Idiots are a growth industry today when they have become so stupid and shameless to allow others to see what stupid looks like in living color.

All Birth Certificates are Legal Documents.
The D of I is the Birth Certificate of America and tells us every year how old our country is.
Presently dated from July 4th 1776 brings us to 231 years old.
Next time you ask your mommy what your name is, ask her what a birth certificate is too.


Nice thing about God
The nice thing about our founding fathers using God rather than man as the source of our rights is that God has a history of sticking around a lot longer than those "countries" than come and go.

Interesting to note that it is called the Bill of Rights, not the Bill of Freedoms.

We have the right to do only what we ought to do, not anything we want to do, or anything that we can do. Restricting what we ought to be doing is a loss of freedom. Restricting what we ought not be doing (like making phone calls to known terrorists) is not a restriction of freedom. We ought not destroy our posterity ( Our instruction in the Preamble clearly states the Constitution was established to preserve the blessings (interestingly religious choice of words) of liberty to ourselves AND OUR POSTERITY.

You can argue until Sunday about whether or not a ZEF is a person (zygote/embryo/fetus) or just a chromosomally unique pimple growing on the lining of a uterus, but no one can deny that ZEF's are our posterity.

SCOTUS needs to read the entire Constitution including the Preamble before making up a right to abort one's posterity, or restrict our ability to practice our religion 24/7/365, not just for an hour once a week.



re: John Acton
John Acton wrote:


"... If any historian suggests that Declaration of Independence is MERELY a historical document having NO LEGAL weight, then too he must summise the same for the 1782 Treaty ending the Revolutionary War..."

>>

Legal authority to enter into that treaty as a Nation was established with the Articles of Confederation. It is essentially the same legal authority to enter into treaties (ie: binding contracts) that is enumerated in our current Constitution.


The simple fact is that the Declaration of Independence was, powerful as it may have been, little more than a declaratory letter of intent. It was not binding on the Crown. And, though the signers and the colonies mutually agreed to aid each other, even pledging their lives and fortunes, there was no BINDING language that committed the colonies to anything with regards to "union".

beowulfe
Thank you for the link, but I think there is something wrong with the search engine on the web page you sent. Although it brought 1000 cases, the first 20 has no reference...

I opened up the first 20 cases and I did a search in my browser on the text - a find for the words "Declaration of Independce and I cannot find one case where in the body it is referenced. I looked in the summary, opinion and dissent.

You need to check your work before sending it out..

You also need to do a better job demonstrating my historical ignorance rather than your arrogance...

re: John Acton
John Acton wrote:

"The Revolutionary War was ended 'officially' with the treaty signed by representatives of the parties at Versailles in 1782. In this treaty recognized ONE NATION of 13 Sovereign States in form that was negoitiated by Benjamin Franklin, recognized by the Parties as the Minister Plenipotentiary of the United States of North America.

"While the British Crown wanted to negotiate a separate peace with each of the 13 Colonies, the United States of America held out for and got a single treaty between the United 13 States and the Crown..."

>>

That is because the 13 Colonies had ALREADY ratified, on March 1, 1781, the "Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union" which is the document that FIRST established the United States as a Nation as opposed to a group of 13 independent States.

See Articles I (which names the new nation) & III (which is the official act of uniting).

http://www.usconstitution.net/articles.html

"Article I. The Stile of this Confederacy shall be 'The United States of America.'"

"Article III. The said States hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of religion, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretense whatever."

Quite clear....
"But The Constitution is quite clear", and yet you cannot come up with even ONE clause therein that one could even INFER that concept.

No doubt that I agree that we have gone from a federal government, as the Constitution defines, to a national government (Now I bet you're dumb enough to think those two terms mean the same thing, huh?), but that is NOT to say the Constitution sets up this national government. It, IN FACT, does not.

Yes, we've diverged quite a bit from what the Constitution means. Funny how you insist on repeating your version of "BOOSH IZA REPUKE CONTURD POOPYHEAD!" Why not mention were it arguably all started? The ever popular Marbury vs Madison case is probably where we started diverging from the Constitution in any major way. With that one decision, SCOTUS granted upon itself unlimited power. They, in one stroke of a pen, went from the "weakest" branch of government to the most powerful. They granted upon themselves the authority to question and, if they so feel like it, cancel out any action either of the two other branches makes.

And you think some lawyer pleaing his case is even a fraction as devastating as concocting new powers out of thin air, and the Court did in Marbury vs Madison?

Like I said, Robert...
You can say "Nuh uh!" all you want. That doesn't change FACTS. FACTS are immutable, and no matter how much rhetorical gymnastics you go through, the FACT here is you are, predictably, wrong.

And one more thing, kiddo, find for me where, in the Declaration or the Constitution, where the United States of America is referred to as a "nation", let alone "one nation".

stedes
See here and weap:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/casesearch.pl?court=U S&CiRestriction=Declaration+of+independence

Over 100 cases on FindLaw have included references to the Declaration of Indepedence.

And, as I have YET AGAIN demonstrated, my pointing out that you are ignorant of history is not an insult, but a proven fact.

Re: A Nation not a group of Colonies
The Revolutionary War was ended "officially" with the treaty signed by representatives of the parties at Versailles in 1782. In this treaty recognized ONE NATION of 13 Sovereign States in form that was negoitiated by Benjamin Franklin, recognized by the Parties as the Minister Plenipotentiary of the United States of North America.

While the British Crown wanted to negotiate a separate peace with each of the 13 Colonies, the United States of America held out for and got a single treaty between the United 13 States and the Crown. This was the Final act in the creation of our begun with our Declaration of Independence.

If any historian suggests that Declaration of Independence is MERELY a historical document having NO LEGAL weight, then too he must summise the same for the 1782 Treaty ending the Revolutionary War. In which case, their is not such thing as American citizen, and we are ALL STILL mere "Subjects of the British Crown".

"Contract Between the King and the Thirteen United States of North America, signed at Versailles July 16, 1782."

Why we have two constitutions
We all live under two constitutions.

One deals with federal power and one with state power.

That is why all 50 states can have God in them and even have religious tests in at least two states, N.C. and Tn. while the Fed is denied that ability.

That is why the State Constitutions have the protection of rights in them, sometime worded like the U.S. Constitution's Bill of Rights and sometimes not.

A state can choose to treat religion the way the Federal government does with only a limited relationship, paid chaplains, "God" on money, prayer in Congress, Oaths on the Bible, etc. or like N.C. and Tn. where it goes farther.

As long as each state is "free" to have the relationship it wants with God, then we are "Constitutional."

beowulfe and John Action
I never said the document was insignificant or not an important document. I am not trying to down play it. But I am challanging your understanding of its role in our current laws. The DOI is not used by lawyers or judges to enforce laws or make arguments.

Again, instead of name calling and personal attacks, please site me one case where the Supreme Court has used it or quoted it in a court decision.


ChristoPhobes
What's all the hub-bub, bub? You have to consider the source. These are liberals. Liberals are the people who identify everyone by race, gender, wealth and sexual preference. They are butt-in-ski's, busybodies and elitists. They know everything about everything and they know what's best for everybody. They embody all of the evil that they ascribe to conservatives. Conservatives believe in live and let live. Liberals believe in approving your lifestyle before you live it.

Despite the fact that these ChristoPhobes make up a very small percentage of the population, they have been very successful at distorting the words of the DOI and Constitution to fit their impaired sense of original intent.

The sad thing is that we have let these vulgar revisionists get away with their unbridled attack on America's founding documents. There is no explaining liberalism except to understand that it is, in fact, a mental disorder.

Robert continues with more ignorance.
"effeerson (you know the guy who wrote the document or most of it anyway) did not believe in a divine supernatural "God"."

Is THAT why he attended church on a regular basis?

While one could argue that Jefferson was, at times, ambiguous with his religeosity, what is not in question is that he did, in fact, believe in a divine God. Just read the Declaration, ferchristsake! In the very last sentence of the document, he calls upon "Divine Providence" -- a term with DIRECT Biblical origin -- for protection.

You can say "Nuh uh!" all you want, but anyone with an internet connection can read the document for themselves and see how little you actually know about it.

re: Robert
Robert wrote:

"... First off there is nothing appropriate about praying at a non religious graduation ceremony..."

>>

That is YOUR (biased) personal value judgment. Not everyone shares it.

So now, YOU are attempting to impose YOUR values on others by telling them what they can and cannot say because of what YOU think is (or is not) appropriate.

-----

"... Second the 'we have to pray in public' groups really dont understand the Bible..."

>>

Nothing says they HAVE to. They CHOOSE to. And, in a free society -- as much as you may dislike that OTHERS have Freedom too -- that choice is THEIRS to make.

re: Robert
Robert wrote:

"when some person stands up at say a High School graduation at the Valavic speech and says 'I am goign to pray'...then all he/she is doing is imposing their religious beliefs on everyone else..."

>>

That's not even disingenuous. It's a bald faced lie.

THEIR Expression of Faith imposes their religion on others AS MUCH AS your vitriolic rhetoric RESTRAINS others from practicing and believing in theirs. BOTH are merely expressions that have NO POWER OF FORCE whatsoever.

re: Robert
Robert wrote:

"... You can pray all you want to...I just dont care to have you get up at a School commencment and force me to pray along..."

>>

As a libertarian atheist, I get SO SICK of this stupid argument.

Someone ELSE praying or even leading OTHERS in prayer IS NOT FORCING you to pray along. You retain the Liberty to NOT pray. You can even be a j@acka55 and hum softly to yourself... stand up and leave... quietly recite some bawdy limeric to yourself... etcetera.

Until they say, "Repeat after me OR ELSE", you are not compelled to do ANYTHING with regards to their prayer.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"It has no legal jutidiction in the basis of our laws."

Of course it does. In fact, it is LEGAL BASIS for the very existence of our Nation, to wit:

"That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

"The Supreme Court cannot consider it."

Really? And where in the Constitution do you find limitation on the Supremes?

"As much as everyone loves the ideals, and we can certainly point to it historically and culturally. It cannot be used as a legal document."

Actually, as an endictment of the British government, aka King George III, the Declatrration of Independence is nothing, if not a LEGAL DOCUMENT.

Governments come and go. Our Constitution merely established a "temporary" government, and most of our Founders and even the Framers of of our Constitution that the government thus created would last "forever". However, the Nation created by our Declaration of Independence was based on CONSTANT, ETERNAL AND SELF-EVIDENT TRUTHS that relied neither on "the People", nor the "goodwill" of the World's Nations for its existence. Instead, our Nation was founded "under God" and the "Laws of Nature and Nature's God", which are the ONLY FOUNDATION of ALL OTHER LAWS!

On a not unrelated note...
Now I KNOW the following facts will certainly blow the minds of the historically ignorant, but it may interest some to know that the Constitution did NOT "create a country". No, the United States of America was NEVER intended by our founders (well, most of them) to ever be a single country, but a federation of independent States (hence the reason we're called the United States of America). The United States of America was never intended to be a single country any more than the European Union is intended to be a single country.

Re; Hysterical Historians
"Historians view the DOI as only a historical document."

It depends entirely on the "bias" of the particular historian. Certainly the Britian didn't treat it as merely a "historical document", and used it very same language as the Declaration when describing NEW NATION in making the Treaty of Paris which recognized the victory of the "United States of America".

"It was written by a few men with a vision."

As was the our Constitution. In fact, the "so called" - "Constitutional Convention", was formulated by the very same legislative body, the Continential Congress, as was the Declaration Committee. Actually, the "Constitutional Convention" went well beyond its "Congressional Mandate", as it was not empowered to "due away with" the Articles of Confederation, but merely revise them.

"We were not a country when it was written and it was never a ratified document by the states/colonies."

Duh! You really aren't the shapest tack in the box, are you. The purpose of the Declaration of Independence, as its most infatically implies was to DECLARE OUR INDEPENDENCE from England, for cause, and ESTABLISH A NEW NATION. This is exactly what it did, although it took a "bloody" Revolution to settle the matter.

RE: stedes
READ THE GODDAMN DOCUMENT, you MONUMENTAL fool!

"They were not states but colonies and we were not a country."

Uh huh. So we should just ignore the fact that the words written right at the top of the document say: "IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America".

"BTW - If I am wrong or you do not agree with me, why the name calling "history ignoramus". Did I offend you?"

Um, that was a statement of demonstrated fact. You ARE, IN FACT, as I've demonstrated, ignorant of history. If you are offended by that, then here's some advice: OPEN A FREAKIN' HISTORY BOOK AND READ IT!!

"There are many self-proclaimed rightous Christians.."

Of which I am not (I'm, in fact, pretty agnostic on my views of religion). I, however, also am not ignorant of history, and the role of religion -- particularly the Christian religion -- had on the founding of the United States, and its laws.

Jeanne -marie
I did not state that my oldest Daughter got and English Degree . I was in the Military for 22 yrs and my children went to the Schools on the Bases where I was assigned. My daughter is a smart and beutiful Women today but not becuase of the public school system becuase she was taught by her parents to be Honorable,caring not just for her fellow students but to all. My biggest worries when I retired from the Military was putting my children through the public school system. In the miltary school system we didnt have DRUGS or Guns or Gang related incidents and most of all our children where our children not the schools children and they were not taught PROPAGANDA like their is in the public schools today. Was it you that stated that you were once a school teacher and that the PRINCIPLES were afraid of parents today. Well maybe thats some of the problems but not all.

Robert
Obviously you are completely without a clue on this subject.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed *****by their Creator***** with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Now Robert, get your mommy to help you with the multi-syllable words up there, because you certainly need the help.

The Declaration goes on to say that governments are formed to secure these rights -- rights granted "by their Creator". Governments get the authority to secure these rights -- rights granted "by their Creator" -- from the consent of the people. Governments, however, are NOT the origin of these rights. "Their Creator" is, according to the Declaration. Any law, therefore, infringing upon those divinely granted rights, thus, are invalid, according to the Declaration.

To claim that the origin of any such laws comes from any source outside of that divine "Creator" is in total contradiction to the expressed words of the Declaration. Governments AREN'T granted ANYTHING from the consent of the governed outside of securing the governed's divinely granted rights.

Now you may disagree with the substance of what the Declaration says, but you cannot disagree that it says what it says.

And, to reiterate, YES, the Declaration IS, IN FACT, a legal document, and not just some old scrap of paper with a collection of quaint ideas written on it.

beowulfe
"IS a legal document that WAS signed by representatives of the 13 original states"

They were not states but colonies and we were not a country. If this logic were true, then all the treaties with Native Americans signed before 1790 (when the constitution was ratified) would still be honored. But the Supreme Court threw them out becasue we were not a country when they were signed thefore that government no longer exists.

"The Supreme Court FREQUENTLY looks to the Declaration of Independence for guidance in making their decisions".

Do they? How do you know this? Can you name one case where the Supreme court cited the DOI in a case as a binding legal force? Even if they look for guidance, guidance does not make it a legal document.

Lawyers generally, and the Supreme Court in particular, have been reluctant to treat the Declaration as part of American organic law, or even to accord it the restricted status of the Preamble to the Constitution.

"Declaration of Independence is really an "international treaty" - Who says? What is your source? Why is it international treaty if it was written here domestically? Your view that it is a treaty and therby law as stated in Article 6 is a bit of a stretch.

BTW - If I am wrong or you do not agree with me, why the name calling "history ignoramus". Did I offend you?

There are many self-proclaimed rightous Christians here filled with anger and anomosity towards "God-Haters", "liberals" and "secularists" who want to take religion away. It seems to me that to the folks here at TH, Christianity is more a badge rather than a way of life.

Pray or Take a Pill
Part III-
The religious wars in Europe hundreds of years ago in which thousands of Protestants (and Jews) were "converted" back to the Vatican's politics or more often were slaughtered was a HUGE error on the part of politicians who may have been Catholics but by Biblical definition were not Christians. (Going to a church doesn't make someone a Christian any more than going into a barn makes someone a cow.)
THAT is the very type of state religion the Founders demanded we avoid. Christians don't want that any more than you do, although the entire point of the original article is that the Leftist "theology" trying to CHANGE this nation into its own likeness, WANTS TO INSTITUTE THAT VERY SAME TYPE of "religious mandate" ON the American people. The difference is that theirs is the religion of "humanism" and not the faith which comes from understanding and applying the Bible and Christians aren't trying to MANDATE ANYTHING on anyone. We know your salvation only comes through your own acceptance of the Truth.
If prayers offered up in your presence were as effective and invasive to you as you seem to fear, then you would have been "gooned" into a mindset in which you wouldn't be complaining now.
All public prayer, whether in school events, Congress, NFL games or any place else, by definition ISN'T directed to or at you but to God. If you don't like it in your presence, ignore it, get out of the way or take a pill.

Vaya con Dios!

Wm. A. "Bill" Fisher
Oklahoma

Pray or Take a Pill
Part II-
If there isn't a God who IS interested in helping you to a new life (and Who WILL also require an answer from you regarding your life, either through your willingly recognizing His Lordship at the foot of His Cross or a little later on at the Footstool of His Judgment Seat all on your own...good luck on that), why don't you just relax, let others live, communicate and pray the way they want while your temporary protoplasm continues to decay on your way to nothingness?
IF the Bible and the Truth it offers (which isn't a religion by the way, but a Relationship with the Creator referred to in the Dec. of Ind.) turned out to not be true, your nose doesn't get bruised by Christians following our beliefs. Get a life people, or make that Life.
The only people forcing conversions at the point of a sword (literally) or by a bullet are Islamic Fascists and some Hindu fanatics, along with atheistic socialists in China and Burma. Show me one instance of a genuine Christian converting anyone by force. It's impossible.

Wm. A. "Bill" Fisher
Oklahoma

You Lefties need to pray or take a pill
Post I-
In reading these posts, I see "Moderate" Mark posting illogical posts that are antithetical to the truth of history, the Bible and logic; I see a school teacher who thinks she and the school system are actually charged with the authority they have taken on for themselves (with the assistance of lazy-thinking, like minded lemmings of parents, bureaucrats and legislators) which they do NOT have; I see a "Mr. NY Dog" spout some genuine gibberish that has absolutely NO basis in logic, history, truth or understanding of comparative religions (glad you're there in NY Mr. Dog and please stay put); and from one poster who continues to spread the tired Deist falsehoods and slanders regarding Washington, Jefferson, Payne, Franklin, et al who, while not exactly Pentecostals, WERE nevertheless talking and writing about the God of the Bible (Who was the God of their culture and of their own church services, both in "houses of worship" and with Jefferson in the Capital Building and White House) and were NOT Deists of the later French Enlightenment mindset: and I wonder, "What in the world is wrong with you people?"
If you don't want to stoop to the level of taking a chance and addressing a God you don't believe exists or if He does, isn't interested in you, why don't you take some happy pills and relax? Either way, get out of my face and away from my freedoms. I'm enjoined to "turn the other cheek" but I'm also taught that "it's better to give than receive."

Wm. A. "Bill" Fisher
Oklahoma


Robert you proved my point:
"common law which is what the American Justice system is built on might (might) include some links to items like the 10 commandments, but it is not dependent on them for its existance."

Precisely. The fact that some people believe their actions are guided by relious choices that just happen to be identical to "common law" (which were common because they were common to all religions BTW and therefore common law is religious in nature) does not automaically make their choices a violation of church and state any more than laws that coincide with biblical teaching are unconstitutional. But you cannot have it both ways. Either all laws in common with religion are unconstitutional, or not. IF they are not unconstitutional, than any outward expression of religion, in any context that does not violate those common laws must also be Constitutional.

As for your comment that we have a lot of laws that have nothing in common with the 10 commandments, name one.

RE: stedes
"Historians view the DOI as only a historical document. It was written by a few men with a vision. We were not a country when it was written and it was never a ratified document by the states/colonies. It has no legal jutidiction in the basis of our laws. The Supreme Court cannot consider it."

Yet another history ignoramus.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the Declaration of Independence, in fact, IS a legal document that WAS signed by representatives of the 13 original states. When the Constitution was written, it did not void the Declaration, but instead created a Federal government. In fact, considering the Declaration of Independence is really an "international treaty", the Constitution specifically states that it is the law of the land, no less than the Constitution itself (please see Article VI of the Constitution if you don't believe me).

The Supreme Court FREQUENTLY looks to the Declaration of Independence for guidance in making their decisions.

Most not laws?
"Most of them are completly "Not" in our code of laws."

Outside of the First Commandment, which ISN'T a law?

Just because you are an intollerant fool that doesn't know the first thing about history doesn't mean that history never existed.

That British common law, in fact, DOES have DIRECT historical ties to the Ten Commandments. Like it or not, that is just a fact, kiddo.

Declaration of Independence is
Unconstitutional"

Diaz writes "The Declaration of Independence is the foundation of our legal jurisprudence. Indeed, it is the foundation of our country. And in fact, it makes reference to what they hate the most, God".

Historians view the DOI as only a historical document. It was written by a few men with a vision. We were not a country when it was written and it was never a ratified document by the states/colonies. It has no legal jutidiction in the basis of our laws. The Supreme Court cannot consider it.

As much as everyone loves the ideals, and we can certainly point to it historically and culturally. It cannot be used as a legal document.


Government sponsored religion
On Tuesday, December 25, 2007, government offices throughout the United States will be closed. Those citizens seeking government services will not be able to receive those services. Is this a government holiday ? What is the occasion? These are rhetorical questions.

This is a defacto recognition of Christianity as the official religion of the United States. Does anyone get Ramadan or Hannukah off ? If a moment of silence can be construed as prayer and individuals in school can be prevented from expressing their religious convictions on the basis of "separation of church and state", then why do we as American citizens allow this government sanctioned religious holyday to be a day off.

I am pointing out the hypocrisy of he ACLU et al. If you really want to put this separation of church and state in its place, then go after the money. Christmas, not Xmas, as well as Easter and Thanksgiving each have a religious basis. No government employee should receive time off or additional compensation, i.e. overtime, on any of these days. What private businesses choose to do is none of the government's business. There are businesses that presently are not open on Sunday due to the religious significance.

Most do not understand what the Founding Fathers had in mind with freedom of religion. They didn't want to see another Church of England. My dream is to someday challenge the government in court on this issue. Those of you that have the financial resources to afford the legal costs probably don't have the guts for it.

As for me, on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 I will be in church celebrating and praying. For all my fellow Americans I wish you a Merry Christmas. If you are not of the same faith as I then I wish you a Happy Hannukah. If I left anyone out, I mean no offense. If that is not satisfactory, tough.

I thank God for the wisdom of our Founding Fathers and that I live in the United States of America!


Robert: religion and the law
If one truly believed in the complete separation of Church and State, then one would have to rule that any law that enforces any of the ten commandments, not just the first three that have to do with God, are also unconstitutional.

So, it would be ok to kill your coworkers because "thou shalt not kill" is in the bible.

It would be OK to steal from your friends (Thou shalt not steal), OK to commit perjury (thous shalt not bear false witness), OK for strangers to walk into your house and screw your wife (thou shalt not commit adultery), OK for children to ignore their parents demands to be home in time for dinner (honor thy father and mother), etc. These biblical commandments existed long before the Constitution was written so all our laws are religious in nature to some extent.

Are you in favor of releasing all criminals from jail except those that were arrested for saying a prayer at their validictorian address at their high school graduation?

Re: History of the Courts
"When (CSA) President Jefferson Davis was charged with "treason", he THANKED GOD for the chance to get a ruling on seccession, something that Abe Lincoln would not alow. The Yankees didn't bring him to trial in order to prevent that ruling."

Hmmm! Do you suppose it was because the Supremes at the time were headed by Chief Justice Taney - the same Chief Justice that wrote the horrible Dred Scott decision which turned the Declaration of Independence's "created equal" and "Creator Endowed UNALIENABLE Rights, of Life, LIBERTY, and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS" on their ear with regards to the African Slaves, and also the same Justice who issued the Writ of Habeas Corpus for the mutinious and treasonous Maryland Militia Officers that had been plotting and organizing to overthrow the elected Federal Government by attacking Washington, DC., and who later didn't recuse himself when the case of HIS WRITS came before the Supremes?

Anyone who believes that the Federal government would have received a FAIR and impartial hearing before that rebellious judicial mob in any case involving the rebellious Slave States must also believe that Roe v Wade was rightfully decided.

Religious history?
Teaching students about religion is not a history class, it is a social studies class. Like it or not, religious people behave and make choices based upon their religious views, and thus understanding human behaviour must take that into account. Preventing any mention of religion in schools prevents those students from understanding how the world around them operates and fails to prepare them for functioning in that world.

One could argue that because Americans have been shielded from religion for several generations that our public officials that make international policy have been dismal failures in our dealings with Iran and Iraq because we were never allowed to learn let alone be exposed to religious views in our schools.

Interesting facts kooky commies hate:
Ok, so one could call ANY fact something that kooky commies hate, but here are a few on this particular subject that they REALLY hate:

Kooky commies always try to point to Thomas Jefferson as PROOF that the mere utterance of the word "God" in public ought to be a capital offence, but consider this:

- In the very first session of the very first congress, one of the first votes passed, of which Jefferson voted in favor of, was a vote to appoint a congressional Chaplain that will open every day of congress with a religious prayer. To this very day, one of the first things done to open any session of congress is to appoint a congressional Chaplain whose job it is to give a sermon to open congress.

- Thomas Jefferson, also in the first session of congress, voted in favor of using the congressional buildings as churches when congress was not in session until churches were built in the area.

- Also during the first congress, donation buckets would be periodically passed around congress by priests who were asking for donations for their church...and Thomas Jefferson ALWAYS donated.

- Oh, and did I forget to mention that Jefferson himself attended mass on a regular basis?

So much for Jefferson being the poster-child of banning the utterance of the word "God" in public.

Robert: What is the purpose of speeches?
"Speeches should be focused on the purpose of the meeting/assembly." If one is graduating from a religious school then the religious aspects of the school have played a role in the cirriculem and addressing it is a valid concern.

What if a religious person is graduating from a government school, and feels that their religion helped them attain their high academic standards and they want to impart that perspective upon their fellow graduates? Muzzling them is a violation of the free expression clause. The school is not paying that speaker an honorarium from taxpayer funds, so there is no violation of the establishment clause.

Teacher Educaional Requirements Suspect
Rewarding teachers with higher salary because they achieved or hold an advanced degree may be counter-productive and unnecessary. A PhD only proves the teacher made a good student, but doesn't prove they can transfer their knowledge to those who don't. A dissertation read and graded by a professor is not the same thing as a teacher raising the knowledge of an eleven year old.

Does knowlege of how to solve differential equations help you teach Johnny his multiplication tables better than a mother home-schooling her child who has only a high school diploma?

Choking off religion from government education only serves to deprive children a well-rounded education. We should all know what other religious people believe or don;t believe and learn to respect and accept them as they are. Hiding religion is denying its existence.


Robert: Non sequitur
Your quote: "there is nothing appropriate about praying at a non religious graduation ceremony. Want to pray in public...go to a religious school and take classes."

This does not make sense. If you go to a religious school then you are not in a public audience, which is why they are called "private" schools.

That is like saying "if men could get pregnant then...." IF men could get pregnant they would be women, so any conclusion drawn from that premise would be nonsense.

FYI, I have no problem if the valadictorian were a muslim and shouted Allah akabar in a public setting. I would have a problem only if they simultaneously drew a knife and began cutting off the head of the principal.

If the validictorian wants to pray during his speech to the class, it may even enlighten those in the audience who do not believe in religion to question whether or not there is some added value in prayer. After all,it is because that person on the stage believes that they were able to achieve their status and their excellent grades because they had a religion and others didn't!

chuck
Dear Chuck,

I am not familiar with the comment about the weight in the girl's handbag, I can only guess that the principal felt that the girl was carrying more weight than was healthy for the girl to carry, otherwise, I am totally unaware of the situation.

As far as your daughter's graduation with a degree in English Education, believe that she has spent plenty of hours in the classroom before they would honor her with an education degree. They must go through a series of internships in the classroom, ending with an internship where they are totally in charge of the classroom for a series of weeks, before they are graduated from an education degree, so your daughter, despite what you might think, has already spent ample time in the classroom to give her the confidence she needs to begin her career.

Now you want someone to tell you that she will perform today like she will perform ten years from now. You and I both know that's nonsense. The years she spends teaching will both inspire and develop her teaching skills. Those who go into teaching are dedicated. Could you ask for more than dedication? I think not.
perfor
So give your daughter a break. Don't be one of those who take advantage of a group who basically just want to be appreciated? You would give that to your mailman at Christmas, wouldn't you? So what's so hard about acknowledging teachers who have been educated, dedicate themselves to your children and do their very best? They know they have your child's future in their hands; and they are very careful to do their utter best.

Separation of Church and State Indeed!
When an atheist can sue in court to stop open displays of religious expression (e.i. singing of God Bless America before the National anthem in support of our troops overseas before the start of a football game which happened in Illinois) as it made them uncomfortable, then the reverse should also be allowed.

Having mandatory grade school classes teaching my child on how to use a condom so they can engage in sinful acts of promiscuitous sex goes against my religion. Why can the government force my children to be indoctrinated in anti-religious doctrine?

Sex education and morality are the obligation of parents to do or not do. Government schools should not be involved in these things. Stick to the reading, writing, and arithmetic where NCLB says we are doing a dirt-poor job. Maybe if teachers spent more time teaching skills necessary for getting a job, rather than on how to get pregnant, we would have a better educated populace.

Moderate Mark
Today im schools they have programs where you can still be a senior in High School and be working on your college degree. My oldest daughter got her first year of college completed and was still in High School. She is now 20 and has a degree. I can see young teachers being assistants to experience teachers their first year or so in the schools but please have them do some intern work before you throw them to the wolves.

This author carefully distorts
history. Much is wrong with his narrative. From an empiracist viewpoint, however, he does ignore the bias against Catholics that was endemic in some parts of the country and some times. He also seems to ignore that the Mayflower emigrants were a splinter group of some sort and proceeds to ignore the dynamics of change involved with puritanism as religious beliefs morphed into something other than puritanism.

The author has simply selected portions of history and pronounced unfounded doctrine to support his point. This is not a rational discourse.

Moderate-Mark
I believe totally in protection of child abuse but I also believe that if a child tells you that they where not abused then what gives them the right to believe anything differnt. The schools think they are the care givers of our children and they are not.

Also im glad that the doctor believed you and you were not put in jail, becuase there is allot of people out their who think they know what is better for your children than you do. That is what happens when we let them use our Children to gain POLITICAL POWER. We see that every election the POLITICIANS always wheel out our children for their own uses.

Apollyon67
The expansion occurred after FDR packed the Court with "his" folks in the 1930s, following some correct initial decisions regarding the unconstitutional nature of a lot of his "New Deal" programs. It has more or less done nothing but get worse since then.

In 1995 the Rehnquist Counrt rendered a decision which on the face of it appeared to take some of it back. I haven't noticed a decline in Federal "programs", though, so it must not have worked.

How will we settle the worldview clash?
Who doesn't believe that ultimately, it will take a civil war to settle this kind of clash of world views? American conservatism, informed by our founding documents, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and American Liberalism, informed by Marxism and the "Enlightenment", cannot coexist in the same society.

Because American Liberalism wants to impose its worldview on the whole of society. That's right, and c'mon liberals, cite the usual litany of individual cases in which a conservative has said, "there oughta be a law". Go ahead. "Jerry Falwell hated gays. Brett Bozell wants the FCC to censor TV". Those do not disprove my statement. Conservative philosophy includes the idea that the individual should be left alone to pursue his own life, as long as he doesn't hurt anyone else. Liberal philosophy insists on using the state to impose its view on everyone, allowing for no deviation.

Conservatives can exist with liberals in their midst, but liberals cannot live, knowing that their neighbors do not think and live as they do.

So, liberals will not stop. And since their agent of change is the state, ultimately, it will take the kind of force that a state can muster, to defend against it.

Hillary delenda est.

Jeanne-Marie
The problem with our Teachers and Principles today is that they arent educated enough themselves to teach. My daughters English teacher is 20 years old and has never taught in school before this year. Now how am I to take what this teacher says for real if this teachers has never taught a class a day in her LIFE before this year. We are in such a rush to put teachers in schools that we dont make sure that they are up to standard before they are installed into our school systems. Its like your 20 yr old that thinks they no everything and you chuckle at them becuase you know that they havent even been around long enough to know more than you. But we make excuses like the classroom sizes and how less money the teachers make. I just want my children to get the best education available and that is lacking in our schools today. Obesity what about the story that came out the otherday that the principle sent a letter to the parents about their daughter being over weight in the girls handbag. WOW did they not think the girl would not read it. Now that girl is ruined for life WHY. becuase someone wasnt educated enough to at least care about how the students parents should be notified. I believe that insulting people will not fix the problem but only expand it.

Schools
I think you people misunderstood me. I dont want the schools to teach my children about BIRTH control that is my job, the problem with schools today is that they think they own our children. I recall back in the Carter/Child Abuse Act my brother got bruised up playing tackle football and when he came to school the next day they asked him how he got those bruises and he told them playing football and they didnt believe him and went to my fathers job and arrested him for child abuse. Now that is the crap im talking about. The schools are not there to raise our children they are there to educate them. I dont want anybody teaching PROPAGANDA to my CHILDREN and no im not against GUN control because I have 7 weapons in my house. I use them for hunting and protection and I didnt need no school toteach me that.

Liberalism is self-refuting.
“...they [liberal activists] believe there is no truth; everything is relative.”

Liberalism is self-refuting. Take the claim that there is no truth. It is a claim to be a universal truth itself. But how can that be if there is no truth?

I saw Justices Scalia and Breyer debate on CSPAN and remember the discussion about “the evolving standards of decency of American society” supporting the idea of a “living, breathing Constitution”, and Scalia made a point that is only hinted at here. He stated that he didn’t believe in the “living constitution” idea [as Bryer does]; but, granted that if one does, who decides the current “standards of decency of American society”, the “cream at the top” [judges] or the people through their representatives?

A final comment on the “separation of church and state”. According to the Sixth Circuit Court, the ACLU’s argument has “GROWN TIRESOME”:
“... the ACLU makes repeated reference to ‘the separation of church and state.’ This extra-constitutional construct has grown tiresome. The First Amendment does not demand a wall of separation between church and state. ... see Capitol Square, 243 F.3d at 300 (dismissing strict separatism as ‘a notion that simply perverts our history’). Our Nation’s history is replete with governmental acknowledgment and in some cases, accommodation of religion. ... see also Lynch, 465 U.S. at 674 (‘There is an unbroken history of official acknowledgment by all three branches of government of the role of religion in American life from at least 1789.’); Capitol Square, 243 F.3d at 293-99 (describing historical examples of governmental involvement with religion). After all, ‘[w]e are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being.’ Zorach, 343 U.S. at 313. Thus, state recognition of religion that falls short of endorsement is constitutionally permissible.”
Sixth Circuit Court, ACLU VS. Mercer Co., KY.

Dear Chuck
You are afraid of birth control, guns, drugs, rape, and gangs in schools. Do you Do you talk with your children about these issues? Besides being a special education teacher and having to teach intellectually challenged about good touch v. bad touch, practicing lock-downs, having the police come in and discuss guns, having the D.A.R.E. force work with our students to prevent drug use, patrolling our schools daytime, locking them up night and weekends, I'm not sure what else you might expect the schools to do. When I was teaching elementary, they didn't disperse birth control, nore did they discuss it, but it would be a good idea for you to do that as early as possible. However religious you may be, situations happen over which your child has no control, so PLEASE, HELP THEM BE PREPARED TO PREVENT PREGNANCY OR SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED DISEASES. Some progressive schools have taken probably more of a lead in intervention than some parents feel comfortable with. Maybe they would never have gotten around to it. Rather, I would be grateful I didn't have to do it myself, if I were those parents, and know that it is done and my child is safe and prepared. How much is that worth to you? Your child's life?

As far as telling you what your child should eat, every Principal, is afraid of THE PARENT. So, no, they aren't trying to tell you what to do, only what to do to prevent obesity in your child. Childhood and adulthood obesity are on the rise and are contributing to heart disease among Americans. Do you want your child to have a short life or a long life? That's at this point entirely up to you. You may not be able to control your child's adulthood obesity, but you can control your child's obesity now. Take a look at your child; you know if he or she is obese, and in your heart, you know you do or do not need to do something for your child's health and future life.

Founding Fathers Fatal Flaw
The fatal flaw in the Counsitution and the Declaration of Independence that preceded it, was that they did not write it in Latin.

Since Latin is a dead language, the meaning of the words at the time it died would still have the same meaning today. We may choose to describe those meaning in modern language,and use different words that didn't exist 200 years ago (e.g. gay/straight etc)but the underlying principles so well elucidated in those documents would have been preserved for all eternity.

The Consititution would still be a "living document" only in that it allows for its ammendments and that have been done over two dozen times in the past two and a quarter centuries.


WayneS
So, thats how they do it! Dastardly. Bring back States Rights!!

But don't take it the wrong way...
...I DO think the courts are pretty screwed up in a large number of their decisions regarding Religious liberty as well.



PS - I apologize for the spelling errors in my previous post. I am cursed with fumble-fingers this morning.

Mr. Diaz - You state...
"Nothing good ever comes from deviating from the clear text and context of the Constitution..."

& then,

"...In no other area of law has this proven truer than when it comes to our religious liberty."



I stringly agree with the first statement, but equally strongly disgree with the second.


The expansion of the federal government's powers under the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution so as to include virtually everthing which goes on in the country has caused MUCH more damage to this nation, and to the Constitution and its original intent, than ANY Supreme Court decisions made regarding religious freedom.

The Court's decision to allow the Federal government to make laws which affect every aspect of state, local and individual activities by simply declaring a link to "interstate commerce" has led directly to the centralized national-socialist form of Federal government we now suffer under.

Robert RE 11:54PM post...


Robert DOES NOT have the right to force his fake, fraudulent, and delusional views (pathetic as they are!) on anyone!!!!!

There is no precedent for that! All it is is show boating. LOL







Robert
The American people want an education for their children, yes. The Federal Government has the Authority to create an Educational Program, No. The States should take care of this particular item.

Schools
They have replaced prayers in schools with PROPAGANDA in schools and wonder whats wrong with our CHILDREN, Hell they even have replaced parental rights with Liberal rights in schools.ie giving our children Birth Control without our permission. I recall when I was in school we never had problems like they have today since they removed PRAYER. >look at the school problems today. GUNS, DRUGS, Rapist,gang related fights, and all this in HONOR of removing PREYER in SCHOOLS and we ask WHY? They even tell us how we need to feed our children in schools. The problem is we have let the Government, due mainly to LIB JUDGES, take our childrens livelyhood away from them by HOW?

SCARE TACTICS.


The United States Of AmeriChrist
You'd think Christlamics would learn from their conservative Arab and Persian brothers that when Government gets involved with religion, religion is then used to empower the government and strip the people of freedom. Why they believe that THEIR god is benign while Allah is not is strange considering that early Christian nations employed all the backwards hostility to education, science and social liberty that we see in, say, Iran, today - but I guess they think that they would do better or that their religion, itself, is better prepared to control the masses.

History tells us differently - but still, they try!

1st Amendment Rights are personal
According to the 1st Amendment, our USA Government should have neither positive nor negative involvement in our individual, personal religious expressions!

Our 1st Amendment Rights are responsible freedoms given to us by God (not by our government), for individuals to have freedom to express their belief in God.

It is unconstitutional for (1) atheists and non-believers to be offended by our expressions and (2) for them to consider our individual expressions as political and legal issues.

As long as our expressions are peaceful, decent and respectful of other's rights, there is no legitimate right for anyone to object or to think of it as government or corporate "endorsement of a religion."

trughes and savage 99
I found both of your commentaries well written and accommodating of the rights of all Americans, which is what the Declaration of Independence tried to establish. Accepting a god, which is the fountainhead of most if not all religions and estaablishing the sacredness of the document, did not pander to any particular religion, but gave honor to all.

As a teacher, I often show National Geographic videos on various countries, which usually covers their religion and so it might be said that I am teaching about the various religions found around the world. I guess it's like teaching tolerance. But, when it comes to the major religions of our own country, Christianity and Judaism, I feel under pressure to be extra careful to precurse my lesson or video with an announcement that I am in no way supporting these religions, I am just ensuring that these faiths are covered for those in the classroom who are not familiar with these religions. In my multicultural classroom, I do think it makes sense so that any misconceptions may be cleared up, and any prejudices my begin to be overcome.

With religion being the basis for unrest in so many parts of the world, I really believe that teaching about the various religions is an important part of preventing religioous wars in the future, and necessary to the rounding out of a full social studies curriculum.

I can only pity the science teacher who has to deal with evolution and creationism!!!!!!!!!!!

1st Amendment Rights
According to the 1st Amendment, our USA Government should have neither positive nor negative involvement in our individual, personal religious expressions!

Our 1st Amendment Rights are responsible freedoms given to us by God (not by our government), for individuals to have freedom to express their belief in God.

It is unconstitutional for (1) atheists and non-believers to be offended by our expressions and (2) for them to consider our individual expressions as political and legal issues.

As long as our expressions are peaceful, decent and respectful of other's rights, there is no legitimate right for anyone to object or to think of it as government or corporate "endorsement of a religion."

As long as our expressions are peaceful, decent and respectful of other's rights, there is no legitimate right for anyone to object or to think of it as government or corporate "endorsement of a religion."

Undying
This topic is undying and even if the truth smacked many in the face they would flat out deny it. Denial is the foundation of any Secular/athiest argument because they have nothing to stand on.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/466623/has_america _lost_its_biblical_direction.html

Tallil2long, Tinsldr2
Tallil2long, Well said.
Tinsldr2, Every troop standing in formation at a change of command is in silent prayer. They are all praying the outgoing and incoming CO don't talk to long.

God and the Declaration
The First Amendment merely prohibits Congress from making any laws either establishing or prohibiting religion. Speaking about religion at a high school ceremony is not "making a law" about anything. Using government force to prevent someone from speaking about religion does, however, violate the free exercise clause. While private schools should be free to make whatever rules they want concerning what type of speech they deem appropriate, the government should have nothing whatsoever to say about it one way or the other.

That being said, once it's established that graduation ceremonies are appropriate venues for holding forth on one's view about religion, religious people should be equally prepared to be on the receiving end of hectoring speeches denouncing religious beliefs since that, too, is not illegal. The First Amendment stands for the proposition that we should let it all in, keep the feds out, and may the best side win.

Mr. Diaz also forgets to mention that the Declaration says nothing about Jesus and the Constitution says nothing about God at all. The Declaration's primary author, Thomas Jefferson, was a Deist, not a Christian. The "Creator" he spoke of in the Declaration is a naturalistic God who originally created the universe and the laws of physics, but then withdrew and does not interfere with his creation or intervene in human affairs. Like fellow Deists Washington, Franklin, and Paine, Jefferson denied revealed religion, the inspiration of the Bible, the deity of Christ, and any supernatural events other than the original creation of the universe. I suspect this is not the God or religion Diaz has in mind!

Religious Mumbo Jumbo
The path to the perfect society is being blocked by those that see 'God' as the source of all that is good. Get with the times. You flat Earthers pull out that rag and spout off whenever you feel threatened by progress. Grow up. There is no man behind the curtain pulling leavers and making the flames shoot up.

Putting that old paperwork in the proper context will allow those smarter than you to engineer a world fit for real humans to excel in. That you may not qualify for inclusion in that paradise is what scares you so you imagine that 'God' will protect you.

It will take a lot more than your God to protect you from the geniuses that want to trash the Constitution. I would suggest a Springfield Armory M-1A. It works good out to about a thousand yards. A pump gun is good for close work but if you are forced to defend yourself with a pistol it means you have let the a*sholes that want to enslave you by destroying the Constitution get way too near for your own good.

To Tallil2long
THANK YOU! I'm glad there are folks like you on OUR side! God Bless you and Merry Christmas!

Tinsldr2 & Savage99
All I can say to that is "AMEN".

Semperfi

Tinsldr2
Nicely said. Common sense tolerance of basically innocuous situations is a necessary collorary of our own freedom. Toleration is extending acquiescence, without necessarily extending approval. My freedom to own a firearm depends to a large degree on the acknowlegement of my right to this expression of the right to self-defense, by those who may not think its a good idea to own one themself. Atheists who can not be merely bored as someone prays deserve no recognition of their right to disavow religion. In many a time and place, rejection of the prevalent religion could be fatal. Neither the atheist nor the devout can reasonably expect tolerance of his spiritual viewpoint without extending it to others. Public expression is a matter of culture, heavily influenced by majority viewpoint and standards. Most folks have no trouble handling this, mostly without even thinking about it. The trouble makers you describe can be tiresome, even when understood to be pathetic people searching for a life.

Misunderstanding the Constitution
Someone who does not understand anything wrote "when some person stands up at say a High School graduation at the Valavic speech and says "I am goign to pray"...then all he/she is doing is imposing their religious beliefs on everyone else."

First of all, any speaker at a commencement ceremony is elucidating their beliefs to everyone. The same happens at every large military ceremony. Of course the 1st amendment gives them the right to speak. It’s called freedom of speech. If the one of the speakers says something I don’t like, so what, I have no right to NOT be offended. If one of them utters a prayer, that is their free speech. No law prohibiting it. If when my son graduates HS someone stands up and says Allah Akbar! (Besides the fact he might get shot if my PTSD kicks in ) he has a right to say that.

As a Jew, do I sometimes get tired of hearing Christians pray in Jesus name? heck yes. But I would never interfere with their constitutional right to do so. It is no big deal. We are granted Freedom of religion not freedom from religion. Christians have a right to pray how they want, Jews can pray how we want, and yes Hindu, Moslem, Buddhist and atheist can do what they want.

The constitution prohibits any one church doctrine from being promoted over others. It does not prevent an expression of gratitude to the Lord and Creator.

If you don’t believe in him then acknowledge those that do and get on with your life. At a typical formal ceremony such as a graduation, a dedication, a military change of command etc, people will blab on about all types of things I am not interested in. If it comforts some people to hear a prayer then it hurts nothing and is not offensive to me. People who complain about such things are the types that simply stir up trouble for the sake of doing so.

as always Tinsldr2@yahoo.com

To SJDoc
Actually, your argument is the same as that of Al Quaeda -- that deadly force is not merely ethical in defense against physical force, but in pursuit of any political goal. In your case, not having you tax dollars spent in a way you don't approve.
Would you say that those opposed to abortion have the right to blow peoples' heads off in order to prevent their tax dollars being used in a way they feel is immoral? How about anti-war activists, can they just murder people to prevent their taxes going to support the campaign in Iraq?

If you don't believe in just government, democratic process and proportional redress -- then go to Somalia. You will find sufficient anarchy there for you.
But you won't, because your comfort is more important to you than your convictions.

To SJDoc
When you've actually looked down the barrel of a firearm, then come talk to me.

You'll need a plane ticket, I'm in Afghanistan.

5 STAR article, well said
The Foundations of the Nation RESTS upon these very words.

When, in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's GOD entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the Causes which impel them to the Separation.

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their CREATOR, with certain unalienable Rights,
------

It is pointed directly to this POWER as the POWER to SEPARATE from the British Crown.

Laws of Nature and of Nature's GOD ENTITLE THEM...
It is God Himself who is the very one who Entitles all men to rights.
These RIGHTS are listed in the US Constitution as the 1st 10 Amendments.

1st Amendment is OUR RIGHT to BAR CONGRESS, not Religion.

1st Amendment tells Congress in no uncertain terms to keep their big noses OUT of Religion, one way or another, for or against.

It DOES NOT bar any person from Honoring GOD.
Even if that Person works in the Government.
He is still an individual who has the same Rights to HONOR GOD as the most devout among us.

Now, the fact is, Congress has obeyed this amendment and have NEVER passed a law against or for religion.

So the question to ask is, how in the **** did this question ever get into a Court House WITHOUT A LAW!

Court is about one thing, a judgment concerning LAW.
They do not have any law against GOD, Prayer, 10 Commandments or any other part of faith.

What we have is GOD Haters in the Court and the Press.
Time to rebel against these thugs and tyrants


At least get relativism straight
Among Diaz's many misconceptions is this: "remember, they believe there is no truth; everything is relative."

Relativism is but the recognition that some questions, e.g., is something good or bad, cannot be answered as true or false, and rather may only be answered RELATIVE to some standard. Different people may choose different standards by which to assess such questions. But in any event, EVERYONE'S assessment of what is good and bad is necessarily relative.

Diaz's real beef with those he would brand as relativists is not that their views are relative and his are not. Rather he just likes his standard better than theirs. Ironically, his opinion on that score is . . . well, relative.

Phallacy
"ending in what can only be described as a requirement of government hostility towards religion."

Oh, I love your cute little parsing of words "can only be described as..." You liar! there are a million ways to describe that extraction.

No, you idiots, that does not mean that the government has the right to take part in that religious fractionalism.

The requirement is that the government take NO PART of the religious debate.

You bunch of whiners. If you believe in your religion then you shouldn't need governmental support and I should think you would be glad that the government doesn't support Islam. How can you see that as a bad thing.

You are fear-mongers. The government should have no religious bias. Is that so difficult?

Michael Savage is right.
Michael Savage said that Liberalism is a mental disorder. For a long time I just thought this was just a cleaver catch phrase to sell his book. But more and more I’m starting to believe he’s right.
Just look at what liberalism is fighting for and against. Everything they are against, sane people are for. And everything they are for, sane people are against.
It’s like they’re in a Jerry Seinfeld bizarre world for real.

How about those instances when even
SILENT PRAYER have been condemned? My son's school started the day with a 'moment of silence' in lieu of a prayer. It was condemned as being in violation of 'seperation of church and state!' Even though NO WORDS were said!

You won't even allow a moment of silence for anything but AIDS. And for 'gay rights' - you will let the students go all day without talking to teachers!

Robert writes:
"when some person stands up at say a High School graduation at the Valavic speech and says "I am goign to pray"...then all he/she is doing is imposing their religious beliefs on everyone else.

There is no New Testament precedent for that.

All it is is show boating."


So what if they are? That doesn't make it illegal or unconstitutional. Like I said, you cannot even bear to hear something religious and therefore, ban it. I ask you again, who is the intolerant one?


Handling prayer at school functions
Here's how one principal handled the predicament, and very well I might add. Kudos to this one, he didn't step on anyone's toes, just allowed those who wanted to participate to do so.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/mcloud.asp

Sorry robert,
NO ONE is or has been forced to pray anywhere. That's a outright lie. Intolerant people like yourself lack the civility to even quietly respect another's right to pray. Your definition of forced religion is having to even HEAR something religious.

Just wondering
where in the Constitution it says we are Guaranteed an Education. Robert, When has someone put a firearm to your head or a knife to your throat or even strong-armed you to pray? Maybe when you where over in the ME perhaps?

Not Atheist - Anti-Religous
Newdow isn't an atheist, he's an anti-religious zealot. The two are not the same. An atheist believes there is no God, and if someone else believes differently, it makes no differerence to the atheist.

The anti-religious zealot claims there is no God, and works assiduously to remove Him from all aspects of the lives of others. Why would a rational person work assiduously to remove something they claim does not exist? That isn't disbelief, that's forcing others to agree with you. I don't believe in the Easter Bunny, but I'm not wasting my time trying to silence those that do.

good article
Those Puritans and Quakers braved the wrath of the mighty Atlantic to establish a godless nation. We know.

Roger writes:
"I don't hate religion, but the Constitution says what it says "Congress shall make no law establishing a religion." How do you not read a separation between church and state? Don't just say it, explain your position. You're totally conclusory."

What's the next line in the Constitution say Roger? "Nor shall it interfere with the free exercise thereof", something liberals have been doing for decades. I guess most liberals failed reading comprehension in school. After all, wasn't it libs who discovered that the Constitution also guarantees the right to an abortion? That eminent domain has no restrictions? That responsible citizens must carry the irresponsible? The list goes on and on.

vamtns41 looses this one!
Christian Manfred's comments are 100% accurate. I'm a retired high school history teacher (thirty years!), and I always had my students study the history of the pledge.

Francis J. Bellamy was indeed an outspoken Socialist. The "Under God" addition came at the height of the "red scare."

Christin Manfred gets an "A+".

Here are some wonderful resources:

http://www.americanvoice2004.org/askdave/24askdave.html

http://history.vineyard.net/pdgech0.htm

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/bellamy_f/bellamy_f.htm l

Excellent
Excellent post, Dave -- the creators of the Constitution didn't want Congress espousing religion OR interfering with it. Liberals always seem to conveniently forget "the free exercise thereof" portion. And Koolhand, pray what torture are you referring to at Gitmo? Those prisoners are treated 10 times better than Ramos and Compean.

Free Ramos and Compean
Hillary Fascism Awareness Week
Merry Christmas to all but intolerant liberals

Roger
You forgot "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".


Imagine That!
All 50 States acknowledge God in their respective Constitutions. No innuendos, no reading between the lines, no up for interpretations; rather, stated in plain language.

http://www.helpsaveamerica.com/50-states.htm

Go figure…

http://klintons.com

Wow, you are really a moron
You reach for extreme statements to what, try to be hte next Coulter?

I don't hate religion, but the Constitution says what it says "Congress shall make no law establishing a religion." How do you not read a separation between church and state? Don't just say it, explain your position. You're totally conclusory.

Poor robert is WRONG AGAIN! :-(
I didn't know that it was POSSIBLE for one person to be so wrong about EVERYTHING!

Amazing, absolutely amazing!!!!!!!







If it ain't broke...
...don't fix it!

What an abomination the Constitution is being molded into. Concisely written and easy to interpret in its original form, now we need a slew of liars, oops, I mean lawyers to sort-out all the dirty little details that have been incorporated into it.

Special interests groups have been catered to, by way of the courts modifying the Constitution, to where it is barely recognizable from its original form. Where common decency and common sense formed the back-bone of the Constitution as originally intended, misinterpretations, twisting of facts, rewriting of history, and loopholes have complicated these simple truths into complicated lies!

http://klintons.com

Interesting......
>Okay, so the headline is a bit premature, but it’s the logical precursor to the legal philosophy of liberal extremists, isn’t it?<

But what if some judge does make that ruling?
When (CSA) President Jefferson Davis was charged with "treason", he THANKED GOD for the chance to get a ruling on seccession, something that Abe Lincoln would not alow. The Yankees didn't bring him to trial in order to prevent that ruling.
IF the Declaration Of Indendance (In which the various colonies declaired that they were no longer part of the British Empire) is contrary to the United States Constitution --the basis for our national laws and policies-- then we will be leagally part of the BRITISH EMPIRE once again.
But what about the earlier Declarations? The Meklinburg Declaration of Virginia or the Charleston Declaration of South Carolina? Are they leagal? What about the 'declaration of independance' issued by the Confederate States?

As I said, "interesting".

America and Politicians
Most of our politicians today do not give a damn about America, or freedom, or liberty. They care about self-aggrandizement, money and power.
Unfortunately, these people have enough idiots hanging on their every word and supporting them, that we can all kiss America goodbye in a few short years.

Reading from different history books?
Christian Manfred

Obviously we are reading from different history books and information, because I disagree with your factual statements and implications. Why don't we both check our history sources again and see if we can eventually argee on the facts and conclusion?

Photo
For an article about "liberal extremist scholars", TH picks a photo of anti-war activists protesting government torture. I'm unsure of the subliminal context here.

It will be interesting
...to see how the courts treat the 2nd amendment as they handle the DC gun law case.

Not that there are enough people that could/would use a gun for anything other than robbery, rape or murder.



If you're going to point a gun at me...
--
...to get the money to pay for your expression of religious faith, anything I do to stop you - up to and including blowing your head off - is entirely within my right of self-defense.

Government is not a charitable institution (much as the "Liberals" idiotically conceive it to be), but an agency for the administraion of retaliatory violent force under the rule of law.

Its purpose is not prayerful salvation but breaking things and killing people.

When you get right down to it, that's government's only real power.

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force. And force, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."

Mouthing prayers and posting Commandments in public buildings - paid for by people whose only alternative to coughing up the dough was getting Waco'd to death - is nothing more than window-dressing.

Like putting a lace antimacassar on the Gurney before you strap down the insurgent for his next waterboarding session.

Let's leave the illusion of sanctimony out of it, okay?

Government is goons with guns.

The best you can say about it in America today is that - despite the governing elite's best effort at enforcing their thousands of "gun control" laws - the goons are looking back at a private citizenry that's got literally millions of guns of their own.

The alternative?

Say your prayers.

--

History
The pledge was written by Francis Bellamy, a socialist and a Baptist Minister.

There was no "Under God" in the pledge until June 15, 1954. Senator Joseph P. McCarthy (Republican) had made "Godless Communist" a sound byte and everyone was desperate the prove their loyalty.

We don't say "Under God" because of some great devotion to our Creator. Like everything else in America, it's all about politics.

Sic Semper Tyrannis

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson


I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson

Death to the tyrants.
This government is filled mostly with nothing but a bunch of arrogant self-seeking tyrants bent on the destruction of our fundamental rights. They ignore the Constitution and perform their treasonous behavior as they see fit. It is certainly time that the people exercise that right as expressed in the Declaration of Independence concerning government; “the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.”
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