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Monday, April 30, 2007
Mario Diaz :: Townhall.com Columnist
Alarming: The Dissent's Opinion in Gonzales v. Carhart
by Mario Diaz
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At the beginning of her dissent in the recent Partial Birth Abortion (PBA) case, Gonzalez v. Carhart, Justice Ginsburg, joined by Justices Stevens, Souter and Breyer, called the majority's decision "alarming." Though there is nothing legally alarming about this decision, Justice Ginsburg and other abortion advocates' feelings were deeply hurt by what they consider an intrusion on their rights.

Yes, this decision is an intrusion on the tight grip they've had on abortion jurisprudence in America. In the past, abortionists enjoyed an unprecedented level of respect, security and even admiration that the country's highest Court did not show this time. To them, this is not fair, even if the decision is legally sound. For years they had been the only ones heard on the issue of abortion, but this time the Court had the audacity to listen to both sides. The Dissent cannot believe this and is appalled that the Court would even listen to doctors that do not perform partial birth abortions. Justice Ginsburg quotes the lower court to express her indignation:

[N]one of the six physicians who testified before Congress had ever performed an intact D&E. Several did not provide abortion services at all...

You see, according to Justice Ginsburg and abortion advocates, a doctor should be ignored on this issue if he or she does not provide abortion services. That means that the Court should listen to condemnation of the PBA procedure only if voiced by someone who performs it. Put another way, since no abortion-performing doctor calls the procedure gruesome, then the procedure must not be gruesome. Never mind that hundreds of doctors do not perform the procedure because it is gruesome. That's not the point. Justice Kennedy, writing for the Majority, addresses this point brilliantly:

The law need not give abortion doctors unfettered choice in the course of their medical practice, nor should it elevate their status above other physicians in the medical community (emphasis added).

The Majority also acknowledge that in the past the Court has made special accommodations within its own interpretative rules when it comes to the issue of abortion. Talking about the canon of constitutional avoidance, a rule that encourages every reasonable construction to be resorted to in order to avoid unconstitutionality, Justice Kennedy wrote:

It is true this longstanding maxim of statutory interpretation has, in the past, fallen by the wayside when the Court confronted a statute regulating abortion. The Court at times employed an antagonistic 'canon of construction under which in cases involving abortion, a permissible reading of a statute [was] to be avoided at all costs.'

That has been the modus operandi of our courts when it comes to abortion cases since Roe v. Wade. Good medical doctors ignored, rules of judicial review slightly modified, the United States Constitution "revised" (as part of its natural "living, breathing" development), and the concerns of the majority of women overshadowed by the desires of a few.

In this decision the Court took a small step toward respecting the written text of the Constitution, recognizing the humanity of the unborn and addressing the concerns of all women. The Court said:

It is self-evident that a mother who comes to regret her choice to abort must struggle with grief more anguished and sorrow more profound when she learns, only after the event, what she once did not know: that she allowed a doctor to pierce the skull and vacuum the fast-developing brain of her unborn child. ..."

Again, the Court considers all sides: the women, like Justice Ginsburg, who demand abortions as a tool for "freedom" and "equality;" the women who believe that abortion should never happen because it preys on the innocent; and also the women who regret their abortions and grieve for their unborn children.

Naturally, the other side is offended by this language. Calling whatever is inside of the woman when all but the head is outside the womb an unborn child, or even worse a baby! Calling a doctor who performs abortions an abortionist! This is absurd and disrespectful according to the Dissent. Here is what they said:

The Court's hostility to the right Roe and Casey secured is not concealed. Throughout, the opinion refers to obstetrician-gynecologists and surgeons who perform abortions not by the titles of their medical specialties, but by the pejorative label "abortion doctor..." A fetus is described as an "unborn child," and as a "baby..." and the reasoned medical judgments of highly trained doctors are dismissed as "preferences" motivated by "mere convenience..."

Why the term "abortion doctor" would be considered a "pejorative label" by those who consider this so noble a practice as guarding this, the most fundamental of constitutional rights for women, is not really clear, but it is just wrong. Before they were praised as valiant defenders of women, and now they are being called abortionists.

But all is not lost; the Dissent takes refuge in three main areas. One, they make sure that the other side knows that all their efforts are fruitless. Justice Ginsburg tries to accomplish this by repeating the idea that, "[t]he law saves not a single fetus from destruction, for it targets only a method of performing abortions." So there!

Second, they believe that a door has been left opened by the Court for a new challenge:

If there is anything at all redemptive to be said of today's opinion, it is that the Court is not willing to foreclose entirely a constitutional challenge to the Act. 'The Act is open,' the Court states, 'to proper as-applied challenge in a discrete case.'

So Justice Ginsburg has issued a call to arms, inviting more challenges in order to strike this horrible law:

One may anticipate that such a preenforcement challenge will be mounted swiftly, to ward off serious, sometimes irremediable harm, to women whose health would be endangered by the intact D&E prohibition.

And that leads us to their third and final hope. If a new challenge to this law arises, this current ruling should be overturned. Yes, we all know that stare decisis is one of the most important things to abortionists everywhere. At one point the Dissent said "the Court dishonors our precedent." They also wrote:

As the Court wrote in Casey, 'overruling Roe's central holding would not only reach an unjustifiable result under principles of stare decisis, but would seriously weaken the Court's capacity to exercise the judicial power and to function as the Supreme Court of a Nation dedicated to the rule of law.'

And:

'[T]he very concept of the rule of law underlying our own Constitution requires such continuity over time that a respect for precedent is, by definition, indispensable."

But that was then and this is now. This decision should not be one of those that we respect and follow in the future. It goes against what they believe. So they write, "A decision so at odds with our jurisprudence should not have staying power." Besides, we all know that Roe is "super-duper" precedent.

Alarming, isn't it?

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About The Author

Mario Diaz is the Policy Director for Legal Issues at Concerned Women for America.

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Join the Battle Please!
It is time to move toward the impeachment of Mrs. Justice Ginsburg. Mario, this is precisely why it's critical that the next judges on the Court be appointed by a Republican Administration. Otherwise, the Court will just become another element of the Left Wing of the Democratic Party.

On my much-visited blog (click on name above) there's a battle going on for "the soul of conservatism." See the exchange between liberal Jessica and (conservative) me. If you'd like to join it, be my guest.

steve

off on the law aspects
Hopefully at some point in his studies Mr. Diaz will actually learn some law if that is the field he is choosing to pursue.

The issue that the court was addressing was not if the procedure was gruesome, but if it is ever medically necessary. While the layman may have as good a handle on the gruesomeness of the procedure as the specialist does, whether it is ever medically necessary is actually the kind of thing in which experience is helpful. So the fact that the "experts" lacked experience with the procedure and the equally safe alternative procedures is relevant to the issue at hand. So yes, ob/Gyns should be given a special status in questions concerning their specialty over doctors whose specialty is elsewhere. That Kennedy would say otherwise shows how tortured his reasoning had to be.

The considering all sides argument is even more bizarre. People come to regret many decisions, the idea that the government should be able to make decisions for people on this grounds is scary if it were actually meant to be taken seriously. I tend to think than any rational Republican should over time come to regret having voted republican when they see the results of the policies that follow from doing so. As evidence look how many people who voted for Bush now regret having done so. (And that is more evidence than Kennedy gave for the idea that women who have PBA's come to regret them). So should the government be able to pass laws against people voting for Republicans out of sympathy for the people who will come to regret their decisions? After all people do come to regret voting Republican? But the fact that people sometimes regret their decision is not grounds for taking their decisions away from them. That is just lunacy.

In this case, the Kennedy decision was predicated on the grounds that it is never more dangerous to have an abortion through a PBA than through another means. That is a factual claim, and if it is factually false, then actual women will be harmed. It is not a threat to stare decisis that decisions based on factual claims will not stand if those factual claims prove false. Unfortunately it is unlikely that the claims will be provable as false until some women are harmed by an alternative abortion method who likely would not have been by a PBA. I doubt anyone wants the law to be overturned only when it becomes clear that actual women are being harmed by the medical decisions of lawyers and non-ob/gyn doctors. Although I could be wrong about that.

I understand that most people at Townhall think that Roe should be overturned. But that was not the case before the court, and a court that acts as an umpire is supposed to rule on the cases before it, not other cases. On those grounds, the Kennedy ruling is largely indefensible. But then Conservatives don't really want an umpire, they want justices who lean right. They also want to be able to call that being an umpire.

Need to read carefully
Lon, in reading your comments it looks like you need to read (or re-read) the decision and this column again. All the doctors they wanted to ignored were OB/Gyns, that’s the point. The difference is that some practice Partial Birth Abortions and others didn’t. And it makes sense, at least to me, that we need to listen to those other OB/Gyns, that do not practice PBA, to see the reasons why they do not perform the procedure.

I think that you are just frustrated with the Bush administration and Republicans, and that’s fine, but that is not discussed here. I am a democrat and I too think this procedure is a lot like infanticide, even if you support a women’s right to choose.

Lon...
You're absolutely right, but trying to calmly discuss this sensitive topic with fanatics is a fool's errand. I have to say, as a first year law student, either Catholic University's law school really deserves that third tier ranking it earned or Mr. Diaz has simply forgotten all he's learned. Stare decisis is more than something abortionists like; it's a doctrine which is supposed to provide stability to the law and allow the public to rely on the law for some kind of consistency. That being said, if you apply the precedent of Casey v. Planned Parenthood (which prevents the government from putting any "undue burden" on women seeking abortions before viability), any competent law student should be able to see the possible pitfalls in basing a abortion ban on the type of method being used, rather than on the time in which it is being performed. Mia: the problem with the Court's use of research is that they relied on the research that back their point of view, rather than examining the data as a whole. Kennedy came to the conclusion that no woman is ever in medical need of the procedure despite the fact that the American College of OB-GYN's (the group of individuals most knowledgable about the subject) said the opposite. Yes, it is a barbaric precedure and I wish there never was another one, but it is extremely troubling when lawyers and politicians who know nothing about medicine are put in charge of making medical decisions for millions of women.

lon, Un-learned hand
This procedure is the very same procedure the American Medical Association(AMA) deemed never medically neccesary.

Abortion advocates must always argue in the hypothetical, because reality has a nasty habit of thrusting nails into pro-abortion coffins, and the vampires and demons contained within.

Don't you find it ironic that these justices thing Roe v. Wade is Super-Duper Precendent but in Kellogg spat on the 4th Amendment, would have no problem banning the 2nd, and would support the fairness doctrine to circumvent the First?

But hey, as long as women can slaughter children and call it choice, why me worry about the Constitution?

Brian
I am very thankful that you've never found yourself pregnant and facing serious complications, alone and scared. You don't have the stones for it. Quite frankly you don't have the integrity to be anything other than a holier-than-thou d-bag who passes judgment on others. For what it's worth, Roe v. Wade isn't the precedent, Casey is.
And although you'd love to turn yourself into some victim of persecution, no one is running around trying to "ban" the 2nd Amendment (how the heck do you "ban" an amendment?) Also, interpreting precedents is a totally different than interpreting Constitutional amendments, but I have a feeling that trying to tutor you about Constitutional law would be like teaching a horse to ride a bicycle...

Arrogant Hand
"I am very thankful that you've never found yourself pregnant and facing serious complications, alone and scared."

I give charitable donations and have worked for crisis pregancy centers that make sure these pregnant women facing difficult choices never have to face the decision alone, which is a might more than Planned Parenthood's abortionists can say.

"You don't have the stones for it. Quite frankly you don't have the integrity to be anything other than a holier-than-thou d-bag who passes judgment on others."

I see... and by calling me a "holier than thou d-bag" you are not "passing judgement." That was fast, one post and you've already aborted yourself intellectually.

"For what it's worth, Roe v. Wade isn't the precedent, Casey is.
And although you'd love to turn yourself into some victim of persecution, no one is running around trying to "ban" the 2nd Amendment (how the heck do you "ban" an amendment?) Also, interpreting precedents is a totally different than interpreting Constitutional amendments, but I have a feeling that trying to tutor you about Constitutional law would be like teaching a horse to ride a bicycle..."

I take it you missed the whole gun control rush after Virginia Tech. And Casey or Roe is splitting hairs. The point is the pro-abortion lobby thinks abortion is the most sacred right in America, but they won't protect any of the real rights in the constitution. Maybe that answer isn't nuanced enough for you, but I call a spade a spade.

No, Lon, the Issue Is Not Necessity
Excuse me, Lon, but it is you who needs to learn some law. The constitutional issue is whether Congress violated the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment by banning a procedure known as partial birth abortion: the killing of a fetus (unborn child) by the partial delivery of the fetus (unborn child) up to the head and then sticking a needle in the cranium while the body of the fetus (unborn child) is outside the mother. The majority correctly concluded that Congress did not violate the ue process clause. As for the issue of medical necessity, Congress held hearings and made a finding that the procedure was never necessary. What makes you think that a court could competently conclude otherwise?

More generally, what in the world would make you or anyone else think that such a procedure as partial birth abortion is constitutionally protected? Where in either the Fifth or the Fourteenth Amendment is there any mention of the right to abortion such that it trumps the state interest in protecting the lives of unborn children? To so conclude requires that you make decisions that "the People" have not made in enacting the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution. You can engage in philosophical argument all you want, but you do not have the right to pour your value judgemnts into the Constitution.

I graduated from the Harvard Law School in 1976, and I have been reading abortion decisions for over 30 years. Roe v. Wade was and is bad constitutional law. Casey v. Planned Parenthood was just as bad. The 2000 decision striking down the Nebraska banning partial birth abortion statute was absurd. The recent decision upholding the congressional ban should have been unanimous. The day will come when the matter is returned to the states where it belongs. The right not to have to life, liberty or property taken without due process of law simply does not encompass abortion. The Due Process Clauses once was held to encompass the right to hold slaves (the Dredd Scott decision before the 13th Amendment) and the right to set working hours free of legislative regulation (the majority decision in Lochner v. New York). This too will pass.

Brian
I was thinking of trying to do some sort of un-funny, un-clever play on your name, but I don't want to butt in on your territory.
As far as your work in "rescue centers"; I would say I appreciate it if I didn't know that it's motivated by a desire to influence young women into having children they might not be ready for, rather than out of some goodness of your heart. We all know how you turn on these women and call them murderers if they don't do as you order them to. (For what it's worth, no modern society has actually ever equated abortion with murder, except for your friends over in the Muslim fundamentalist countries...funny how that works, hmmmm.)
And yes, I had forgotten all about all those gun control laws that were passed following the V-Tech massacre. Silly me. (I actually am generally in favor of gun ownership, it just troubles me that the gun lobby is so paranoid and illogical in a country where it is soooo easy to get a gun.)
And no, I don't think a American citizen's right to have autonomy over their body is the most sacred right, but I do believe it is a fundamental one and thus, any incursions upon that right must be viewed with strict scrutiny. (As I believe all fundamental rights including the 2nd Amendment ought to be treated.) Unlike you, I don't pick and choose my constitutional rights. Sorry if that's nuanced, maybe next time I'll throw in a few "Amens!" and "Hallelujahs!"

Phil Byler
I have to say, I disagree with you on this because of differences in legal philosophy (I can't say I share your Federalist views regarding the limited nature of 14th Amdt DP) but that was the single most intelligent piece of writing against Roe and Casey I've ever read and I respect the heck out of it. Then again, I'm just an exhausted 1L who got decimated by his Con Law final this morning, so what do I know?

Blah Blah LH Blah
Normally I don't waste my time smacking down the same troll more than once, but you're making my night.

Abortion is the killing of a human being. Whether it is called murder or not is irrelevant.
It also doesn't jive with your supposed support of the right not to have your autonomy compromised. Tell me, is not partial birth abortion, the only procedure banned by this ruling, an invasion of autonomy of the child? Or does the child's autonomy not count until the head is out?

Oh, and I wouldn't go pulling the "autonomy requires independence" card: playing it basically tells us you would support infanticide, since a child is equally weak and helpless whether thier skull gets crushed before they exit the womb or not.

As to calling women who get abortions murderers, I don't and haven't, but your unending presumptiveness causes you to jump to forgone conclusions. For one who gets hung up on holier-than-thou d-bags, you've got a knack for acting like one.

Your undying support for Planned Parenthood and thier ilk, the only party with a profit motive in the abortion debate, is easily recognizable by your contempt for crisis pregnancy centers. Are you reading off PP's website?

If women don't want to have children, they shouldn't be having sex. Crisis Pregnancy Centers exist to help women who have already made that mistake by aiding them in not making another, more permanent, more damaging one: killing thier child, which can and often does result in psychological backlash for the rest of thier life. Only in Pro-Choice land are women too stupid to know what goes on during a pregnancy. EVERY woman knows what an abortion is, and every woman knows what they do when the have one, PP's spew about tissue clumps aside.

Finally, your contempt for anything remotely religious also shows. I have no clue what prompted your assinine mention of "Amens" and "Hallelujah's," but perhaps you can explain to me where your visceral hatred comes from. It is completely unnecessary and up to this point I haven't even mentioned my faith, God, or religion.

Then again, I've never known anyone who supports abortion that doesn't have deep-seated rage against Christianity. Abortion, especially partial birth abortion, is evil. "A neccesary" should never be included in that sentence.

Phil Byler
You seem to be confusing the argument that Kennedy was making and the argument that you think he should have been making. Rejecting Roe or Casey would be more consistent than what the court did in this case which was to say they were applying the Casey precedent and then not applying it.

This law protects no unborn children. It simply means that they will be killed while they are further inside the mother.

But given that Kennedys argument upheld Casey while your argument repudiates it, it seems safe to say you are giving a different argument than he was.

My point was that even opponents of abortion should repudiate his particular decision. Your argument seems to support that.

With regard to the question of overruling Congress it is an interesting question whether Congress should be able to get around Court decisions by just making stuff up. So for example they could repudiate the finding that no medical school teaches the PBA procedure by pointing to one of the many Universities that teach the procedure.

But that does require placing a premium on reality. Your attempt to attribute your view to Kennedy suggests you aren't too sold on that dealing with reality thing.

Marc
You seem to have miss understood the ruling in question. Kennedy's ruling said that since it is ok to rip the fetus apart piece by piece when it is in the mother's womb, there is no violation of a woman's right to forbid her from having a doctor first partially deliver the baby and then suck out its brain while it is in the birth canal. So the decision did not forbid the dismembering of fetuses, it used the right to dismember to challenge the right to kill the fetus in a different way.

If you find this argument objectionable then you should be opposing the decision rather than supporting it.

As a side note, in most, possibly all cases, in which the PBA is used, if it was allowed to pop out, it would be a slowly painfully dying baby.

Brian
You are right. While doctors whose specialty is obstetrics have said that the procedure is sometimes medically necessary, the larger group of doctors who are not experts on this particular subject have claimed otherwise. The question is whether one should take medical claims from the people who work in the area, or to choose whatever group one can find that supports the view that one wants.

And why is it relevant that Justices would place a value on precedence despite differing you on various other interpretative matters? There isn't even any surface inconsistency there.

Its called a C-Section, Lon
I was born by one. Exactly what sort of "complication" would have to arrive where it would be safer for an abortionist to have me partially born in the breech position, only to crush my skull, when instead I could be delivered by C-Section.

Abortionists MAKE MONEY from Partial Birth Abortion. You have heard of Conflict of Interests, right Lon? The AMA is an accredited organization and I guarentee you it was Ob/Gyns who had the final say. Abortionists have money to make, so naturally they will deem it "medically neccesary" in order to get some bankroll. The only difference between a Partial-Birth Abortionist and a Mass Murderer is that, until now, that abortionist's kind of killing was legal.

As to the decision, this marks the first time ANY restriction on abortion has been passed. If this had been done sooner, Lon, we wouldn't even have to talk about other Nazi-esque manners to kill children in utero because we wouldn't have let pro-abortion eugenicists fleece humanity into creating blenders for babys.

This is just the first step to banning all late-term abortions, as it should be. Who do you think it was, Lon, that invented the other methods for dismembering and destroying children while their political power went unchecked? That is right, Lon, the pro-aborts! Don't tell us to look away at the other distaction after we've finally started turning around this barbaric procedure. YOUR guys are the ones who invented the child blender method, so don't be telling us to look over there, we already know abortion has gone too far.

Good column
Good one; it is amazing how the libs apply the double standard so nonchalantly, even at the level of the Supreme Court. It is always good when someone calls them on it. I guess "stare decisis" doesn't mean jack when it involves a decision they don't agree with.

p.s.- we should just put this matter to a nationwide vote, or a vote in each individual state. To keep letting the Court be the arbiter of abortion is ridiculous. Let's vote on it and get it over with.

To Lon
I was not confusing anything, and in my Monday 10:44 PM post, I was not stating Justice Kennedy's position and nowhere in that post did I say that I was attributing my statements to Justice Kennedy. I was instead responding to your Monday 3:34 PM post. You wrote that the issue is medical necessity. I wrote no, it is not; the issue, since we are dealing with the interpretation os the U.S. Constitution, is whether the congressional ban on partial birth abortion violated the Due Process Clause. Why it does not happens to be explained differently by Justices Kennnedy and Thomas, but I did not get into that difference and that difference does not change what the salient constitutional issue is.

You say that the law does not protect unborn children. Excuse me, but what law? Until Roe v. Wade, it was always considered that the states had a right to protect the unborn. Even Roe ostensibly conceded a state interest in protecting the unborn in the latter stages of pregnancy, an interets that Casey likewise conceded. The point is that what you say is as a constitutional matter made up, an imposition of a certain point of view by way of putting that viewpoint into the Due Process CLauses of the U.S. Constitution. It may be a point of radical feminist orthodoxy that the unborn receive no protection, but the Due Process CLauses did not enact that radical feminist point into constitutional law.

You say that opponents of abortion should repudiate this decision? That is ridiculous. Partial birth abortion is something that should be banned -- period. It is not something that is constututionally protected -- period. you are trying to be too clever.

You say that it is an interesting question whether Congress can repudiate a court decision by making stuff up. Excuse me, but will you please get an education as to how the American constiutional system works.

First of all, Congress is the legislative branch of Government under Article I of the U.S. Constitutuion, and part of what Congress does is to hold hearings and make findings in order to write legislation; that is at the core of the legislative function. What Congress did here with respect to partial birth abortion was to hold hearings, receive testimony, make findings and enact legislation. That is not making stuff up to get around a court decision. In fact, the law is that courts are to give deference to legaislative findings.

Secondly, the U.S. Supreme Court is but one branch of the federal branch of Government and historically was not seen as having the definitive word on issue of constiutitional interpretation. See Stanford Law Dean Larry Kramer's Book "The People Thmeselves." Judicial supremacy is not the way that the likes of Abraham Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt looked at it. In this connection, you cannot overlook the fact that a democratically elected Congress, by an overwhelming vote, passed a ban that was signed into law by the democratically elected President; an unelected judiciary was reviewing the law's constitutionality under the Due Process Clause.

Thirdly, what makes you think that there is some superiority to court determinations in these situations? How are courts to determine matters of medical necessity? Of course, the courts receive expert testimony, but that really solves nothing. In the California partial birth abortion case, the radical leftist District Judge Hamilton made her ruling against the partial birth abortion ban by crediting the abortionists who testified in favor of the procedure because they were abortionists and discredited the Government experts because they were against the procedure; that district judge also criticized Congress for hearing too many witnesses against the procedure and rejected the congressiuonal findings based on the proponents of partial birth abortion. It was judicial imperialism run wild.

To Learned Hand
You have just begun to learn, and yes, law school is exhausting if you are taking it, as you should, seriously. When you have time, read John Hart Ely's law review article published back in the 1970's about Roe v. Wade. Also, accept my statement that today, I am a lot more conservative than I was in law school. Experience in the real world will change your philosophy.

Comment on the comments
I had hoped for more from the SCOTUS. Kennedy, et al, merely banned a late-term abortion procedure that they found medically unnecessary. That it is also visually appalling is hardly a constitutional argument. Left unaddressed was Roe v. Wade's precedent that at NO point during pregnancy do the unborn become persons under the 14 Amendment, and thereby entitled to due process protections. Viability? Forget about it! The unborn are STILL regarded in law as living garbage, fit for disposal by all other means besides PBA. If the mother wants it to die, then die it must! Gonzalez v. Carhart was an opportunity squandered, and I now hold the SCOTUS in even greater contempt than I did before.

Paul Greenberg's Comments of April 29
So what's the significance, if any, of the latest decision from the U.S. Supreme Court in the never-ending legal seesaw that began with Roe v. Wade and isn't about to end any decade soon?

Gonzales v. Carhart is neither the Great Triumph for the forces of light that the pro-life camp was celebrating last week, nor the End of Women's Rights that pro-choice organizations were bemoaning. It is just one more slight move of the legal marker that determines the degree of barbarity now permitted in our "civilization."

The high court's decision last week wasn't against abortion on demand but just one particularly abhorrent form of it that's more like semi-infanticide; it involves half-delivering the child before... well, even the antiseptic medical description of the procedure should revolt anyone with minimal moral or aesthetic sensibilities.

As for the simpler-to-understand description offered by a nurse, whose testimony is cited in the majority opinion, it could have come from one of the more lurid anti-abortion tracts. But this kind of thing has been standard operating procedure in American medicine, and perfectly acceptable American law, until last Wednesday.

No wonder the doctors who do this thing prefer to use Latinate euphemisms like Intact Dilation and Evacuation rather than partial-birth abortion, which comes entirely too close to accuracy for comfort. The simple meaning of words must be blurred before the unacceptable becomes routinely accepted in society. Much better to call killing termination, and abortion choice. Verbicide, said C.S. Lewis, always precedes homicide.

Now the nation's highest court, which has come to double as our moral arbiter, has solemnly decided in a 5-to-4 vote that the several states may indeed bar this atrocity.

The majority opinion by Justice Anthony Kennedy was a finely reasoned effort to make sense of a slight retreat from anything-goes abortion law to almost-anything-goes. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's minority dissent was the legal equivalent of jumping up and down and yelling. If doctors cannot end life in this particularly gruesome way, says the Ginsburg Doctrine, it's clearly the end of Western civilization rather than what it is: the smallest gesture of respect for what remains of it.

This ruling is scarcely a landmark, but it does have a certain significance. It may indicate the pendulum has finally reached one extreme in this debate and begun to swing back, however slightly. At least let's hope so.

Justice Kennedy's (bare) majority opinion acknowledges that the United States government has a legitimate interest in preserving human life, including fetal life. Our times are such that such an admission comes as a revolutionary announcement worthy of Page One headlines across the country.

Let it be duly noted that the high court did not rule against abortion itself at any time and for any reason or even whim. Indeed, its ruling Wednesday would allow even this particularly brutal form of abortion in the unlikely event a doctor could ever show it was necessary to save the life of the mother.

This was a ruling not so much in favor of life but in defense of the dignity of life; and yet that is no small thing. When respect for life is sacrificed, life itself is cheapened.

This decision represents a small but definite move back toward what might be called the wisdom of repugnance, the instinctive recognition that there are still some things we cannot bring ourselves to do -- even in the 21st century, and even after all the horrors of the 20th. That's something -- a small something, perhaps, but something.

The legal dictum that this decision demonstrates most forcefully may be the one uttered by Finley Peter Dunne's sage Irish scholar and barkeep, Mister Dooley, at the turn of another century. Whether or not the Supreme Court is following the Constitution, said Mr. Dooley, one thing's for sure, "The Supreme Coort follows the iliction returns."

Now that Sandra Day O'Connor has left the court, and its vague balance has shifted to the right by one seat, it's as if a heavy fog had been lifted from American law, and its outlines become almost visible again. Justice O'Connor's role as the court's swing voter now has been taken by Justice Kennedy, who may be moderate, even mushy, but at least he's cogent about it.

My favorite part of Justice Ginsburg's loud, not to say screaming, dissent is the one in which she denounces the majority opinion as an "alarming" reversal of long established precedent. She speaks for all those who think that, once a deeply contentious legal (and moral) dispute has been decided in their favor, however morally repugnant that decision, it must stand. Any retreat from it, even a modest one, strikes those who love it as a most alarming betrayal, rather than just another course correction. It never occurs to them that nothing is really decided till it's decided right.

Roe v. Wade having been elevated to holy writ in some fervid quarters, any further elaboration on the subject strikes abortion absolutists as heresy. Much the way, in another morally deluded time, any attempt to chip away at another blanket decision that was supposed to end all discussion -- Dred Scott v. Sandford -- was assailed by slavery's defenders as a breach of constitutional faith. Hadn't the highest court in the land affirmed their sacred right to own another human being? How dare these upstart abolitionist Republicans start chipping away at that landmark decision.

This ruling from a narrowly divided court is no landmark victory for life. It's just another small step away from the morally, ethically and aesthetically repugnant. But of such small advances is civilization made.


Alarming: the dissents......
Justice Ginsberg, et al, believe that if a doctor hasn't performed an abortion than he/she is not qualified to testify about it.
I don't know if Justice Ginsberg has ever had an abortion or had children, but, if she has had neither what qualifies her to talk about such things?

To Vida
Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Associate Justice, was born in Brooklyn, New York, March 15, 1933. She married Martin D. Ginsburg in 1954, and has a daughter, Jane, and a son, James. Nothing that I've found indicates that she has had an abortion, but she has helped to facilitate the same.

In 1971, Ginsburg was instrumental in launching the Women’s Rights Project of the American Civil Liberties Union, and served as the ACLU’s General Counsel from 1973–1980, and on the National Board of Directors from 1974–1980. The woman should have recused herself from Gonzalez, but why do that when you see the Court as the perfect venue for legislating from the bench and ramming the ACLU's pro-abortion agenda down the nation's throat?

Brian
Actually C-sections are mostly more risky than abortion procedures so there would not have to be any complications for C-sections to be more dangerous for the woman. In general cutting a woman open carries risks. And in the cases in which PBA's are actually performed the risks tend to be higher for both. Additionally preforming a C-section to remove a non-viable fetus is hardly a favor to the fetus.

On your second point, while abortions cost money, they cost considerably less than C-sections. By your reasoning it would be the doctors who make women carry babies to term and then charge for delivery that have the vested interest. I don't really believe cost is the deciding factor in either case, but if it was the delivery doctors are the ones maximizing profit, not the abortionists.

The rest of your response though is at least consistent. My point was that conservatives pretend they have a purist view of the courts whereby the court simply follows the law. In fact conservatives, as much as liberals, want them to advance their social agendas. You at least are up front that the point is not the soundness of the legal reasoning it is advancing the social agenda. So you deserve credit for honesty.

Phil Byler
Ok so you were not referring to Kennedy's decision. That is a bit odd since you were critiquing what I was saying which was a discussion of Kennedy's decision. So you were apparently saying that I was wrong by taking what I said and applying it to a different context than that in which I said it. So while you were pretending to show what I said was wrong you were actually talking about something else.

So your point was that if what I had said had been said in a different context it would have shown me to be ignorant of the law? Perhaps you are right. I seldom stop to consider whether what I am saying would be right if I was in fact saying something different.

As it happens what you said would have suggested you were ignorant of the law if you had said it in a different context. One that comes to mind is if you had said it in response to the point that I was making about Ginsburg's dissent to Kennedy's decision.

Phil Byler
Just to get clear on your principle of Jurisprudence. The Kennedy decision (which apparently you weren't talking about) accepts that the women has a right to an abortion but accepts findings that were developed as after the fact justifications and which includes demonstrably false claims to show that a woman is not significantly burdened by having their abortions internally rather than through a PBA.

Is your claim that as long as the Congress makes the finding, or holds hearings and makes the findings that is the end of the matter.

For example, suppose a Congress that is hostile to being criticized passes a law that criticism of Congress can only be made using semaphore. This is struck down on 1st Amendment grounds. So Congress holds a hearing in which it invites as sole witness the American Semaphore Club which assures the Congress that there is no purpose in criticizing Congress that cannot equally be served by making that criticism in semaphore. Congress then repasses the law attaching its finding that no 1st Amendment privilege is disadvantaged. Is it your view that the Supreme Court would have no choice but to accept the law because it would be presumptuous of it to reject a Congressional finding?

In general
Learned Hand was apparently right that this is not a topic that allows for rational discussion. The point I was making, which also was in part made by abortion foe Ken Connor in his own column, is that this was a decision whose principles were not particularly any friendlier to the pro-abortion side than the pro-choice side.

What we learned from the decision is that Anthony Kennedy personally opposes PBA and is willing to accept legislation against it but not against other abortion issues that he doesn't mind so much.

To justify his decision he :1) accepted the right to abortion, 2) accepted that the central issue was that no abortions would be prevented by the law, 3) accepted patently fraudulent findings in order to limit what he accepts as a right, 4) suggested that the government can take away an individual choice to protect the people who will come to regret that choice.

Those are not principles that anyone should be happy about.

Of course one can say, but the court legislates all the time. I am glad that they legislated in my favor this time. That is at least an intellectually honest position.

A women's right to control her body
Women have the absolute right to control their own bodies. Their bodies are defined as one continous body having the same DNA. An unborn child is not PART of the woman's body, it is merely dependent upon the mother.

Life begins at conception. There is no place during gestation that Doctors or Scientists have said "and during the nth week, or at delivery the soul enters the fetus/baby." Simply because an infant is more developed than an unborn child does not make it less human or less valuable.

The woman's control over her body is deciding whether to drop her panties in the 1st place and allowing another human to enter. Don't even go to the rape/incest arguement since:
A- that is less than 1% of abortions and
B- the innocent child is no less valuable and can be given up for adoption, even though it might be very hard for the woman psychologically to come to terms (term ;-) ) with.

BTW, many of the hardest things I've had to do I have looked back upon with pride for having done the right thing.

Pro choice people just need to change which subject they are deciding from:
-to kill or not to kill
-to get naked and have a few minutes fun or be responsible (and not get STDs)

Abortion can't continue to be used as birth control.

Sorry this isn't entirely on the subject of PBA, but my hackles are up.

"learned" hand opines ....
.... that stare decisis is more than something abortionists like ...."

And indeed it is.

For stare decisis is a falsh Latin term most often employed by those sufferers of the liberal psychosis and by their failed lawyer politicians to further pull the wool further over the liberal base (AKA the botton 85% of the left side of the Bell Curve) and of those others too damned stupid to know they're being lied to and/or too damned greedy and/or mean spirited to care.

Stare decisis is code (particularly when it comes to forever accepting, as a given, whatever illegal, unlawful, tyrannical and (especially) un-Constitutional act of bast*rdry earlier more moron friendly manifestations of Marxism were able to fiat ram into being via the corrupt and corrupting offices of the legions of be-robed "Democrat" activists that pose as "judges") for "the United States Constitution is inferior Law"

And how telling that despite and/or because more than fifty million Americans have been denied their lives since the Blackmun debacle, none of the anti-lifers: not the multi-Billion Dollar Aborttoir Industry, its publicists, its lobbyists, its fellow travelers nor its only usefully idiotic can yet call it and/or any of its actions, activities or effects by their murderous names!

Consider the source...
She is an ardent feminist and pro-abortionist. Other than Law Clerking jobs for Federal judges, her adult work record is of academics (international law studies) and the ACLU. She was appointed to the Federal Bench by President Carter and to the Supreme Court by President Clinton.

She has had her share of "ethical" conflicts that may impact upon her decisions. She did not recluse herself from several cases before either the Federal Bench or the Supreme Court.

Another Democrat that places "political loyality" before common good.


Abortion,...

...it's for the Children.

A Hypothetical Question
Suppose a man has a son and the son needs a kidney transplant or he will die. It is determined that the father is the only possible donor. Now, of course, the father has a MORAL obligation to provide his dying son with a kidney. But would anyone suggest that there should be a law REQUIRING the father to give up one of his kidneys -- even if it meant life or death for his own son?
Laws that restrict abortion are, quite simply, laws that force women to give birth to children. The basis of such restrictions is to protect the life of another. I don't have any problem concluding that parents have a moral obligation to their children -- whether they are born or unborn. But the question at issue in abortion cases is whether the law can require one person to undergo a life-changing, body-altering process (with an attendant medical procedure) in order to save the life of another person.
In my hypothetical, the father who is forced by the government to have one of his kidneys removed in order to save the life of his son will have far fewer long-term physical ramifications for his own body than a woman who is forced by the government to carry a baby to term and give birth.
How can conservatives -- who claim to value limited government -- condone such an invasive intrusion into personal autonomy? Is it simply because it is only the autonomy of women at stake?

Justice Ginsburg's...uh...Reasoning
Diaz writes,

"You see, according to Justice Ginsburg and abortion advocates, a doctor should be ignored on this issue if he or she does not provide abortion services."

By that same "reasoning", I would say a Justice should be ignored on the issue (of abortion) if she or he has not witnessed, in person, an actual abortion.

Pray, God, please bring an end to this holocaust

Partial Birth Infanticide
During the oral arguments on this case, Chief Justice Roberts (I belive it was he) asked the attorney defending the partial birth abortion procedure a question.

This is not an exact quote; I believe it is an accurate reading of his meaning.

"You say this procedure is safer than other methods of abortion because fewer medical instruments are inserted into the woman's body. Would it not be better then to allow the baby to be fully born and then crush it's skull? In that case there would be no medical instruments inserted into the woman's body."

There was no answer. How could there be?


To Lon
The principle of deference to congressional findings is not my jusrisprudence. It is accepted law and has been for some time. It is not responsive to outline some absurd, never-to-happen hypothetical and then ask do I really believe in the legal principle of deference to congressioanl findings? In the idiotic scenario that you described, there would be a violaiton of the First Amendment regardless of the congressional finding. But instead of considering such unrealistic scenarios, why don't you read the case law on the point so that you can appreciate why the law is the way it is?

Justice Kennedy's opinion concludes that the congressional ban on partial birth abortion does not impose an undue burden on what he accepts as the right to abortion. You may disagree with his analysis, but I don't think you or anyone else can say that Justice Kennedy's analyis is false. To the contrary, in this context, reliance on congressional findings with respect to partial birth abortion is what a judge should do. For what it is worth, even assuming a right to abortion, I think that undue burden is a bad test, but I don't believe that a right to abortion should be recognized in the first place. I made that clear in my first post under this thread.

Why Roe v Wade was wrong
This whole debate shows exactly why Roe V Wade was simply bad law.

Prior to 1973 abortion was argued out on a state by state basis. Yes, some places banned, some did not. The law was not settled, but citizens of the various states were fighting it out, and on a smaller scale, more likely to produce results acceptable to the local populace.

Roe v. Wade ended the entire national debate and the local discussion on this. Instead we have a fiat from the courts imposed from above. And now we can no longer debate the issue, we have to bring court cases in an all-or-nothing attempt to get our will imposed and the other side defeated.

rather than a legislative back and forth in 50 states, we get a single national arena with an all-or-nothing fight to the death in the supreme court.

And we have worse results. Our one arena for fighting outside the courts is in SCOTUS appointments. However, as judges are human, we never know what we get until they actually rule. So we ned up trying to guess who we should appoint and hope we did not make a mistake.

Basically, if Roe (or the earlier Griswold decision) had never been decided (or decided by returning the question to the states) we would have a continuing set of debates in the state legislatures and a variety of positions we could compare. We could look at various states and see the pros and copns of positions and then adjust our local laws accordingly. (Or move ourselves if our state laws offended us too greatly.) Instead we have one nationwide conflict that can only be decided in terms of all or nothing.

That is the harm from Roe v Wade.

Bigfootbob
You write:

Justice Ginsburg's...uh...Reasoning
Diaz writes,

"You see, according to Justice Ginsburg and abortion advocates, a doctor should be ignored on this issue if he or she does not provide abortion services."

By that same "reasoning", I would say a Justice should be ignored on the issue (of abortion) if she or he has not witnessed, in person, an actual abortion.

-----------------------------

I think we should extend that logic. As far as I can tell, Justice Ginsburg has never issued a sound ruling. Therefore she should not be allowed to judge whether a ruling is sound or not.

Seems fair to me.

To Lon and Learned Hand
It is an intellectual cop-out to say that the topic of abortion does not allow for rational discussion. Basic societal values are implicated by the subject, and there are sharply conflicting views held. There is no way you can reason out a solution. The law, however, still has to deal with abortion. The problem is that we currently have constitutional law governing the subject, which is not what should be governing the subject. The current abortion law is nearly abortion on demand as a matter of constitutional right, which makes radical feminist content but not tens of millions of Americans who are pro-life and tens of millions of other Americans who favor restrictinos on abortion. Pro-life people are very opposed to abortion because it involves life; you may not accept the value of unborn children, but tens of millions of Americans do. The way the subject of abortion can be handled rationally is in the state legislatures where conflicting values are resolved by the democratic process and compromises can be reached.

Phil Byler
When I said that the topic of abortion apparently does not allow for rational discussion, I did not mean in general, just on this discussion board. I was reacting to the fact that while there were many people attacking what I said, there were known actually responding to what I said. I would certainly put your idea that Ginsburgs comment should not be understood in the context in which it was given, but rather in the context that you wanted to criticize it.

Diaz wrote a criticism of the dissent in the Ginsburg case, itself a response to the Kennedy argument. I defy you to find anyone above, besides myself, who shows signs of thinking that whether Kennedy or Ginsburg were right depends on their actual arguments.

Phil Byler
To clarify my last post which was badly written. When I said that the topic of abortion does not allow for rational discussion here I was not make a general political point that that is why it should not be left to the states. Although I am not sure such a case cannot be made. At least one state has mandated that doctors inform women considering an abortion that there may be a link between abortion and cancer despite the fact that such a link has been debunked. That is not a sign of healthy rational debate when doctors are being required by law to mislead their patients.

If I had thought coming in that no rational debate could be had on abortion I would not have bothered with my original post. I started with what I thought was the safest of points, avoiding Roe, avoiding the question of who has PBAs and why. Instead I put the actual argument that Ginsberg gave into context and tried to show that the principles underlying the supreme court decision were not ones that Conservatives should endorse even if they opposed abortion.

What followed hardly qualifies as rational discussion since it is hard to find a response to what I said that responded to what I said. That was what Learned Hand predicted. And it turns out he was right.

Diaz vs. Madam Ginsburg
Read and commented on Mr. Diaz brilliant analysis of the partial abortion decision, where the minority of the Court again attempted to LEGISLATE that a baby is not a baby, or a human being, because Ruth Bader and her friends say "it" is not. I hate to bring this up, however, from a strictly Catholic Faith Tenet, and I ask this question with Love of All. Joseph would have asked Mary, if she really wanted this baby....Just think Mary, what the villagers will say. Do you still want to have the baby? YES, says Mary. AMEN

Diaz vs. Madam Ginsburg
Read and commented on Mr. Diaz brilliant analysis of the partial abortion decision, where the minority of the Court again attempted to LEGISLATE that a baby is not a baby, or a human being, because Ruth Bader and her friends say "it" is not. I hate to bring this up, however, from a strictly Catholic Faith Tenet, and I ask this question with Love of All. Joseph would have asked Mary, if she really wanted this baby....Just think Mary, what the villagers will say. Do you still want to have the baby? YES, says Mary. AMEN

Ginsburg is Nosferatu reincarnated.
New on Capitol Hill - the Ginsburger - its old, moldy bread and full of balogna.

Property and Privacy
Elizabeth Cady Stanton:
"When we consider that woman are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should Treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit." Letter to Julia Ward Howe, October 16, 1873, recorded in Howe's diary at Harvard University Library

To all pro-lifers...
Just out of curiousity, how far do you see this going? I understand that many believe that Roe and Casey are bad law (and I can even sympathize with some of the legal reasoning against those decisions), but if they were to be overturned and states were free to legislate the issue, would that be good enough for you?
You might not want to face realities, but there will always be states where abortion is legal and pregnant women in states where it is not will travel to those states. What will you do then; will you try and outlaw travel between the states (which is a fundamental right, by the way)? Will you abandon the Federalist, states-rights beliefs that you claim to hold so dear and attempt to pass a national law banning all abortions (thus expanding the role and power of the Federal government)? Just wondering...

To Learned Hand
I consider myself pro-life, and I think that eventually, Roe v. Wade and Casey v. Planned Parenthood will be overruled, and the subject of abortion will be returned to the states where it belongs. At that level, at least for some time, there will be a diversity of state laws that will be determined primarily by state legislatures after vigorous democratic debate. In New York, there will be a liberal abortion law that may be dictated by the New York Court of Appeals as a matter of state constitutional law. In some "red states," there will be highly restrictive laws against abortion, as there was once were. Over time, I think that the differences in state laws will narrow.

Why in the world do you ask whether pro-lifers will abandon federalism? The answer is no. Pro-lifers believe that the truth is on their side and just need to be able to have a democratic process to persuade people what the abortion law should be and to change abortion law so that the unborn are protected as they were once under pre-Roe traditional state laws.

Why do you think that pro-lifers have difficulty facing realities? You don't know such people, do you? I realize that law schools seem to be inhabited primarily by left wingers who do not have much contact with ordinary Americans who get up and go to work during the week and get up and go to Church on Sunday. But this is a big country, and there are more ordinary Americans than lefty law school types.

To Lon
I think that your argument against Justice Kennedy's opinion fails. What conservatives take from Justice Kennedy's opinion is that even if you accept a right to abortion and accept the Casey undue burden test, partial birth abortion can properly be banned. You disagree with that, but based on a view of the medical evidence rejected by Congress whose findings provide a basis for Justice Kennedy's opinion. A legislature is empowered to hold hearings and make findings for legislation that may agree with certain experts and disagree with others. Conservatives can live with that conclusion; however, conservatives prefer the analyses of Justices Scalia and Thomas rejecting a right to abortion and think that Justice Ginsburg's radical feminist opinion is off the wall, which it is.

Raywood Ashe
The kidney of the Father is a part of his body. The baby of a pregnant woman is not a part of her body, but as seperate human life. The DNA proves that fact and your hypthetical is comparing apples and oranges.
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