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Thursday, October 11, 2007
Marco  Martinez :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why Do Conservatives Love the Military?
by Marco Martinez
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If a soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine in Iraq were to receive an anonymous care package or letter of support, who likely would have been its sender: a liberal or a conservative?

Chances are you said the latter. But why? Why are conservatives and Republicans seemingly more supportive of our troops than liberals?

It’s a good question.

I’m no political expert. In fact, I don’t even consider myself terribly “political.” But I do have five thoughts on why conservatives seem to lend far stronger and more vocal support to our military than liberals:

1. The military sees a clear line between good and evil.

The minute you start thinking that there’s no such thing as good and evil, right and wrong, it’s virtually impossible to support an organization like the military. The military applies lethal force in the service of what our nation deems “good” and “right.” If you believe that nothing is black and white, and that everything is morally gray, it’s hard to choose sides.

Some liberals sort of remind me of that lyric from that old song that goes: “There ain’t no good guys, there ain’t no bad guys. There’s only you and me and we just disagree.”

Marines don’t “disagree” with the enemy. We shoot to kill.

2. Veterans view themselves as servants, not victims.

I’ll go to my grave feeling nothing but gratitude in my heart for my beloved Corps and the U.S. military. My father earned his citizenship in our great country by serving for over 20 years as an Army Ranger. America has given me and my family more than we ever dreamed of.

I think the overwhelming majority of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines feel the same way: we consider defending our nation to be an honor, not a burden.

Except, of course, for Anthony Swofford, the guy who wrote that lame, whiny book Jarhead that got turned into a lame, whiny movie. Like all Marines, I can’t stand that book. (So much so, in fact, that I wrote my book as a counterbalance for those of us who truly love the Corps.)

3. The military stresses hard work, self-discipline, and personal responsibility.

Growing up, I was a member of one of the most violent street gangs in America. Back then I thought I knew what it was to “hustle” and to be “tough” and “hard.”

And then my beloved Corps got a hold of me.

I remember my Marine recruiter, Staff Sergeant Marquez, a six-foot-tall, dark-skinned Mexican-American Marine with a barrel chest, thin mustache, and bulging forearms. That guy ate punks like me for breakfast. And it was then, and only then, that I began to understand that all I had done up and to that point was crap and devoid of virtue.

Many liberals believe in hard work, too. But conservatives stress hard work and personal excellence as pathways to virtue (“Be all you can be,” as the Army would say). As any brother- or sister-in-arms will tell you, personal excellence gets stressed from day one of boot camp.

4. Service members understand that freedom is not free.

The Armed Forces do their part to cure us young folks of the historical amnesia that afflicts so many people of my generation (I’m 26). I can’t speak for other branches, but I’m sure they are similar.

As new recruits, we had Marine Corps history drilled into us daily. And so, later when we were out on some grueling field operation, for example, it was much harder to complain knowing the hell that our Marine grandfathers experienced at Tarawa, or the brutal fighting our Vietnam fathers endured.

What we understand is that if American history teaches us anything it is that freedom is a torch passed from one generation to the next.

Someone—the military—has to do the heavy lifting of history.

5. The military shoots guns. Lots of guns.

Okay, so I thought I’d lighten it up a bit. But I’m only half-joking. Conservatives support gun rights and the use of lethal force to protect innocent people. The military does, too. As I say, violence isn’t senseless. Senseless violence is senseless.

Admittedly, I’m not a political scientist at Harvard. I’m a former Marine. But that’s precisely my point: whom we link arms with and support says a lot about how we view America—and what we’re willing to do to protect it.

Semper Fi.

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About The Author

Marco Martinez, a recipient of the Navy Cross, is author of the new book Hard Corps: From Gangster to Marine Hero (Crown Forum).

I said
Hooah!

Why Conservatives Love the Military?
Most conservatives, at least those in Congress, in the think tanks, on the airwaves and holding key staff positions on the Hill, have never served in the military. They have little choice but to express admiration for the military since they are so prone to calling for military action.

Semper Fi,

William

Liberals made the Military
Liberals make everything.

Most military folks and fellow veterans
with whom I talk politics tend to show some level of conservatism, but just as often express libertarian views. It really depends upon their age. Young people hardly ever consistently adopt conservative views on every subject. The author does not even consider himself very political.

Conservatives express admiration for the military because it is a regimented, monastic (albeit with the killing part) lifestyle that embodies the ideals that they profess to admire.

Modern Liberals of the 60s generation still cling to a notion of the military as either stooges of the establishment or poor victims who were hoodwinked into service.

Well done Mr. Martinez. You are a fine, young American. Welcome to the mainstream of society.

Semper Fi!
There is much to admire about the military. Speaking as a former Air Force pilot, it's hard to convey to civilians who've never served what a sacrifice of your time it is, even in the luxurious, plush lifestyle of the Air Force.

The men and women who proudly serve give up so much just by raising their right hand and swearing the oath to defend the country and the US Constitution. Their time ceases to be their own. When I was a young officer fresh out of college learning how to fly, it was a far cry from scheduling your time around classes. You're barracked so they can manage you properly, and your time is very limited. I felt more sorry for the young enlisted who were even more confined than I was.

This confinement doesn't end, nor does your commitment to certain standards of dress and conduct. As an officer, I had to look sharp all the time. I couldn't have my superior tell me to get a haircut or shine my shoes, because if I wanted a promotion and better pay I had better make present the best example possible to those I may have to lead. What an enlisted airman might get a tongue-lashing, I could get a permanent notice in my personnel file.

There is no quitting time in the military. You go home when they say to go home. Your privacy is all but gone and you have to maintain impeccable bearing, especially as a leader (Officer or NCO).

On that alone, beyond the fact that they risk their lives daily, in peace and war, to protect our country, I salute them.

Semper Fi, Mr. Martinez!

William
Nice slap at conservatives. Gee, who could you possibly be referring to...The President, Conservatives in Congress, Rush, Wolfewitz possibly. Funny, I don't see any rquirement in the Constitution, you know, that governing document that is supposed to be the foundation of our Gov't, that states that ANY politician MUST have served in the military before supporting, voting for, for being the Commander-in-Chief of the military.

You sounds suspiciously like a former poster here who thought that if you hadn't served you weren't "allowed" to support the war unless you were willing to enlist and go yourself, although your comment doesn't have the invective that he did.

Did you object when Clinton sent the military into Bosnia? How about Kosovo? You know, he did say they would be home by Christmas. Which Christmas specifically, was he talking about because we're STILL there. Did you and do you condemn him for that since he avoided the draft, protested the Vietnam war AND declared that he hated the military but still insisted on sending them into harms way? I mean, if we want to be consistant here...

By the way, have YOU ever served?

I love and respect the military...
I must chime in with the same reverence for our Armed Forces as many of you have. I never served(although I tried to enlist and was medically unqualified), but I have a decent understanding of the sacrifice thousands of men and women have made over the years on behalf of civilians of all walks of life.

I understand how blessed this great land is compared with other nations, which is why any support I can offer, albeit small, I give it willingly.

What often gets lost in the debate however is the trmendous sacrifice their FAMILIES make- I believe the greatest tribute we can pay to our servicepeople would be to organize more grassroots efforts to assist military families.

Why Most Liberals Hate the Military
You know one of their pet peeves is against "passing judgement". Military Action is the very execution of that, judging an "enemy" who committed an act deemed to be atrocious to warrant use of Military force.

Because it is the Liberals' greater desire to be liked than respected, they would rather refrain from such barbarism- particularly if it somehow would advance nationalistic ideals instead of globalism.

A sad paradox
Why is it that guys like Max Clelland and John Kerry were totally slimed for their honorable military service, but chickenhawks like Elmer Fudd (5 deferments) Cheney, Dubya (I had to defend Texas from Communism), and el Rushbo (I had a boil on my buttocks so I just couldn't serve) are now military loving superpatriots!!!

See conservatives love play acting as troops as long as they're someone else's kids. Conservatives just don't want to be troops where they might actually get hurt or worse! Let someone else do the fighting and dying while they make speeches and enjoy the good life.

If that isn't sick or pathetic I don't know what is.

CONSERVATIVES AND THE MILITARY
Conservatives are far more likely than liberals to be Bible-believing Christians. They accept the premise that there is evil in the world and believe in the Biblical teaching that there will always be wars. Liberals believe that it is possible to mold humans like plastic into look-alikes and think-alikes who reject any form of violence against people of a different belief system.

BS artist
You think what Ferry did while in the military was honorable? If that is what you think then you are ignorant of the military or agree that dishonoring the U.S. is a good thing.

Kerry spent three months in country padding a resume' and collecting as many medals as he could to help him with his planned political career. He lied about his service and made home movies of himself 'in action'.

I served with guys that were the real deal and Kerry wouldn't make a pimple on their *ss.

Banks
First, what do any of your points have to do with being conservative?

1 - There are several countries that would be in a "sad" way without defense spending. What is your point?

2 - Yeah, God forbid our warriors have the most advanced technology in the field. Don't you libs make a living claiming that the military is under-equipped? By the way, most of these companies produce for the private sector as well. I would wager that you benefit from their competition and innovation as do the rest of us.

3 - That is just dumb. You are painting with a broad brush here. I'm sure there are people that fall into this category, but they are not representative of most that I know.

4 - OK Chuck Rangel. How poor do you think Duncan Hunter is? Both of his sons serve. How poor do you think Jim Webb's son is? He serves. Do you think West Point is cheap? Do you think their grads are dumb?


To William
You know, neither my Mom or Dad, my wife, my brother, my Mother-in-Law nor even my pastor ever served in the military.
This might just amaze you, but they support me without the least hypocrisy or falsity.

Further, despite them never having served, I 'allow' them to hold their own opinions on foreign policy, the military and the war!

The majority of Americans, including both liberal and conservative politicians, have never served. This does not disenfranchise them nor deprive them of the right to vote their conscience, support whatever they support, or speak their minds.


V/R
SSG Anderson
36th EN BDE
Bagram AFB

A former Navy sailor chiming in....
Kudos and THANK YOU Mr. Martinez, not only for your service to this fine country in the Marines but for pointing out the sad state of liberals and their anti-American, anti-military stance. As a former Navy sailor, I, too, found out what it meant to serve with honor. The Navy stresses attention to detail and a sharp mind because out in the ocean, you don't have a foxhole you can jump into when things get rough. If you aren't on the ball 100% of the time while at sea, you can kill ALL of your shipmates (including yourself!).

My husband is also former Navy, my father was an officer in the Navy and, now, my oldest son wears the same uniform. BUT before he signed his name and took that oath to defend this country from all enemies, foreign AND domestic (I consider liberals to be domestic enemies as they do every thing they can to destroy this nation), I made sure he understood what that meant. He knew that putting on that uniform meant he could get called into combat and he could get killed. If he wasn't willing to take that risk, I told him not to put that uniform on but if he was willing, wear that uniform with honor. Knowing this, he willingly signed up. He knows there is much about this country worth fighting for. Liberals don't understand that simple but all-important concept.

Btw, yeah, Marines and Army do shoot lots of guns but us squids have much bigger guns :D I love ya all! To HELL with anti-military libs! These cowards' lives are so pathetic they have nothing to fight for.

ANCHORS AWEIGH AND SEMPER FI!!!

A former Navy sailor chiming in....
Kudos and THANK YOU Mr. Martinez, not only for your service to this fine country in the Marines but for pointing out the sad state of liberals and their anti-American, anti-military stance. As a former Navy sailor, I, too, found out what it meant to serve with honor. The Navy stresses attention to detail and a sharp mind because out in the ocean, you don't have a foxhole you can jump into when things get rough. If you aren't on the ball 100% of the time while at sea, you can kill ALL of your shipmates (including yourself!).

My husband is also former Navy, my father was an officer in the Navy and, now, my oldest son wears the same uniform. BUT before he signed his name and took that oath to defend this country from all enemies, foreign AND domestic (I consider liberals to be domestic enemies as they do every thing they can to destroy this nation), I made sure he understood what that meant. He knew that putting on that uniform meant he could get called into combat and he could get killed. If he wasn't willing to take that risk, I told him not to put that uniform on but if he was willing, wear that uniform with honor. Knowing this, he willingly signed up. He knows there is much about this country worth fighting for. Liberals don't understand that simple but all-important concept.

Btw, yeah, Marines and Army do shoot lots of guns but us squids have much bigger guns :D I love ya all! To HELL with anti-military libs! These cowards' lives are so pathetic they have nothing to fight for.

ANCHORS AWEIGH AND SEMPER FI!!!

dang it
sorry for the double post

Liberals Did In Fact
Create the military. It is farce to say current day 'liberals' don't like the military. They don't like the cause. I knew as many libs as not while serving.

Get a life and get educated.

Martinez is wrong, I think
Oh, not on whether conservatives or liberals are more likely to personally support the military. I've received enough care packages with notes enclosed to figure that he is right.

However, the real reason for this is, in my opinion, the fact that very, very many liberal/progressives think 'charity' should be the responsibility of the government. I have spoken to a surprising number who are willing to say "Why should I have to give? that's what the government is for."

I suppose if one is willing to hand over one's health care to the same bureaucratic system that mismanaged Katrina, one might as well give EVERY decision and responsibility to it.

to B.S. Artist
If they love/respect the military so much, why do liberals spend so much time on election nights trying to invalidate military absentee ballots - especially those coming in from overseas...Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

Could it be because liberals know the military votes overwhelmingly GOP? Why would the military feel THAT way? Perhaps N. Pelosi, H. Reid, Murtha, et al will provide you with an answer.


Sad for them, hey?
I can only say to this Marine, with a capital M-You Rock!
It is a sad thing that many Americans will never get to have the comraderie that is formed in our days of military service. For not only do we take that oath of supporting and defending the Greatest Country in the world, along with it's Constitution, we will defend each other too with whatever it takes. We understand the meanig of "always faithful" even if we are not Marines. (hooah!)And we are always ready- even when we have long departed that brotherhood (even though a chick, sisterhood doesn't quite fit)to stand up and say "not on our watch".
How many of you get choked up when you hear the National Anthem,(Me) or would drive past a military installation at 1700 hours just to hear Retreat?(Me) Or who want to break down at the playing of Taps or Mansions at a Military Funeral?(Me) Any left-minded thinkers have that feeling? Any 43 yo's out there beside myself and Monk who will join up again, because the duty, the honor mean that much?

Thank you Marco
Before there was a government, there was man. Before there was a government, there was family. Before there was man or family, there was God. Let's set our thinking straight. The answers are found in God, family and personal responsibility. Government isn't the solution, it's the problem. Insofar as government supports God, family and man, it is good. When government challenges God, family and man, it is bad. Conservatives have an affinity towards God, family, man and a country that elevates them. Liberals raise up government at the expense of God, family, man and country. In other words, liberals have it a*s backwards.

To alwyr
I was stationed at Ft. Wainwright, Alaska in 2000. My vote was one of the ones the Dems were trying to flush down the proverbial toilet... at the very same time they were wailing "Let every vote count (sob)".

Now, of course, it is expedient for them to pretend that they LIKE soldiers...


Baseless claims
"If a soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine in Iraq were to receive an anonymous care package or letter of support, who likely would have been its sender: a liberal or a conservative?

Chances are you said the latter. But why? Why are conservatives and Republicans seemingly more supportive of our troops than liberals? "

Marco,
You write an entire article on an assumption that is opinion only. Do you think that only conservative republicans have kids in the military? So when my 98 year old grandmother, a lifelong Democrat, supported my military service she was the one exception?

You base your entire opinion on the quoted premises. Prove your assertions or admit that this is just a good way to fire up conservatives at a conservative site.

LIBERALS DO LOATH THE MILITARY!
Any doubts, look at how vets and retirees are treated on college campuses or how the U.S. military has been portrayed in every movie made since 1970. Socialism cannot abide self reliant, disciplined individuals. The socialist element that controls many facets of American life is committed to driving military people and military values into a pariah subculture.

The Other Iraq Surge

60% of the troops via campaign donations do not support Bush’s Iraq war strategy? Do the Rush supporters think 60% of the military should leave the military since you think they are not REAL SOLDIERS? And what is a REAL SOLDIER vs. a non- REAL SOLDIER?

Capital Eye-| Assessed favorably this week by the war’s lead general, the presence of U.S. troops in Iraq appears to be causing a surge of another sort—and one that’s not positive for President Bush or the Republican Party. Since the start of the Iraq war in 2003, members of the U.S. military have dramatically increased their political contributions to Democrats, marching sharply away from the party they’ve long supported. In the 2002 election cycle, the last full cycle before the war began, Democrats received a mere 23 percent of military members’ contributions.* So far this year, 40 percent of military money has gone to Democrats for Congress and president, according to the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics. Anti-war presidential candidates Barack Obama and Ron Paul are the top recipients of military money.

“People are saying now enough is enough,” said Lt. Col. Joyce Griggs, an intelligence officer who said she spent two months in Baghdad earlier this year, speaking for herself and not the Army. “If you’re a soldier, you’re going to do your job, do what you’re commanded to do. But that sentiment is wide and deep.”

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/the-other-iraq-sur ge

Conservative vs liberal
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stuart Mill
This quote tells me all I need to know. This conservative thinks war IS UGLY. But the sight and sound of a whining liberal that will not fight for himself is the UGLIEST of all.

To Big Tent
"Do you think that only conservative republicans have kids in the military? So when my 98 year old grandmother, a lifelong Democrat, supported my military service she was the one exception?"

did the author state that only conservative republicans have kids in the military? Nope. did he even claim that no Democrats suppor the military? Nope.

In fact, the author specifically said "Why are conservatives and Republicans SEEMINGLY more supportive of our troops than liberals?"

did you get that? SEEMINGLY. the author is dealing with PERCEPTIONS. First he asks the readers for their perception about the probable source of a care package. Then he asks why such a perception exists.
The only assumption the author made is that conservative readers of his column would be more likely to expect that a conservative sent the care package than that a liberal did so.



patriotism transcends admin. policy
Patriotism is love for one's country.

It transcends whatever administration happens to be in power at any given time.

Both liberals and conservatives can be patriots.

There seems to be alot of confusion between support for one's nation, and support for the policies of an administration.

One can be against the war in Iraq, and still be a patriot of the United States.

The president, with congressional consent, orders our armed forces to engage in warfare. It is part of his function as commander in chief.

That commander in chief role does not carry with it any exemption from criticism.

Openly subverting or undermining the recruitment or deployment of the military would be an unpatriotic act.

Questioning the judgment of the commander in chief is not.

I intensely despise the tortured "thinking" of some self-appointed zealots who falsely portray themselves to be "uber-patriots", quick to label as traitors those Americans who disagree with them.


Morning Big Tent:
when did you send your last care package to our fine fighting men and women?
I did last week! I'm getting another ready right now! When are you sending your next one?



To Big Tent
Now, one might seek proof that the conservative readers of the column ARE more likely to predict that a conservative sent the care package. You can gather evidence yourself, by asking the readers. This single assumption of Mr. Martinez is, however, probably correct.

A better criticism of the column would be to point out that, as members of a group generally feel more favorable about their fellows than about members of competing groups, the fact that conservatives have a certain perception does NOT prove that the perception is generally shared in the larger population.

Of course, if more than half the population can be shown to be conservative, then this criticism, too, might not be compelling.

Unpatriotic liberals

Openly subverting or undermining the recruitment or deployment of the military would be an unpatriotic act. Quoting jerabaub....
Well mr liberal, I submit that those that will not allow recruiters on their campus or in their city ie columbia u and San Francisco among others are UNPATRIOTIC. And they are allowed to be this way thru the efforts of those they refute. Miserable little creatures all.

Wayfinder:
What do you call a bathroom in the military:
1. Navy = Head
2. Army = Latrine
3. Marines = Head
4. Air Force = Powder Room
hahahahahahahah
Sorry Wayfinder, could not resist!


Roberto: I'm in the powder room Hal.
Hal D: Why are you in there, Robbie?
Roberto: I'm powdering my, you know. (giggles)

Dear alopekos teumesios
Conservatism and libertarianism are synonymous in my view. Personal liberty was a core value of our Revolution. The Bill of Rights was incorporated into the Constitution to preserve, not bestow, personal liberties. My conservatism embraces all this. Doesn't yours?

Military
As the wife of a 30 year Marine, the mother of a woman Marine who served during Desert Storm and the grandmother of a young man in Marine Corps boot camp, I can say that I've served my country. During my husband's tours in Viet Nam and since 9/11 I've been carefully observing and listening to the debate. One of the differences that is rarely mentioned is that liberals look at most issues from an emotional perspective and conservatives use a more logical approach. Listen to the arguments and compare them. The silliest one used by the liberals is to say "So and so never served" (BTW: why are the liberals always calling conservatives names?) Some of them should read the imcomplete, though telling, military paperwork posted by Kerry during his run for the presidency. Kerry also tried for a deferment to study in Paris but was denied, he signed up for the reserves in order to avoid serving under fire, but that didn't work. While in uniform he went to Paris to try to negotiate his own peace, a violation of the UCMJ and beyond ridiculous for a Ltjg. He has yet to sign his DD180. Max Cleland was severely wounded, by his own hand, he apparently dropped the grenade he was playing with. I give both men credit for their service, voluntary or not, but their service doesn't make them more qualified than anyone else. Most conservatives do remember taking history and civics classes and see war from an historical perspective realizing that bullies and lunatics can't be reasoned with (see Chamberlain establishing "peace in our time" with Adolph Hitler). Liberals think they can talk their way out of everything, but you can't talk sense with A'jad who believes his exploits will cause the 12th Imam to climb out his well after a millenium of waiting.
Marco Martinez I honor your service and the bravery that earned the Navy Cross. You are a credit to your generation.

to jerabaub
Also, there is a great deal of confusion among liberal/progressives between serving the nation and serving the president. I have heard scores of statements conflating soldiers with 'Bushbots'.

Apparently quite a few liberal/progressives cannot understand loyalty to anything greater than the Party.

bs artist (full of it)
writes:
"A sad paradox
Why is it that guys like Max Clelland and John Kerry were totally slimed for their honorable military service, but chickenhawks like Elmer Fudd (5 deferments) Cheney, Dubya (I had to defend Texas from Communism), and el Rushbo (I had a boil on my buttocks so I just couldn't serve) are now military loving superpatriots!!!"

You forgot to mention:
Pelosi, Dingy Harry, Dennis Puncinich, Feinstein, Fienstien, Clintoon, Clintoon, The Boracle, Waxman waxoff, Schiester et al....
Sorry full of bs, just had to add a view others to your list. Just thought it would be partisan of me to do! Have a nice day.


Marco
But I do have five thoughts on why conservatives seem to lend far stronger and more vocal support to our military than liberals:
“Seem” is the operative word here Marco. Because when you start looking into it Conservatives tend to advertise support for the troops but not deliver. The disgraced marine, Ollie North, is a classic example. He ghet far more in publicity and work from the troops than he ever gives back top them. Let 's take each of you points and look at them again.
1. The military sees a clear line between good and evil.
“The minute you start thinking that there’s no such thing as good and evil, right and wrong, it’s virtually impossible to support an organization like the military.” Here is a basic error. For diversity and growth to prosper there must be security and safety even amid conflict. The military is the only instrument of national power that can guarantee that security. Conservatives abhor change and diversity and as a result often allow the military to stagnate.
“Marines don’t “disagree” with the enemy. We shoot to kill. “
That is their job. Peace is not now, nor was it ever, any successful military profession. The military profession exists to provide death and destruction on its enemies. No leader ever went to another country's leader and said be careful I have a really good group of peacemakers. But as you and I well know war is unpredictable. That very unpredictability is why conservatives fear and dislike the military. They love the military pomp and history but they really do hate the soldier.

Marco 2
2. Veterans view themselves as servants, not victims.
“I think the overwhelming majority of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines feel the same way: we consider defending our nation to be an honor, not a burden. “
100% agreement here although as I read today that 18% of new enlistees had to have criminal waivers I am not certain how long that can continue.
3. The military stresses hard work, self-discipline, and personal responsibility.
“Many liberals believe in hard work, too. But conservatives stress hard work and personal excellence as pathways to virtue (“Be all you can be,” as the Army would say). As any brother- or sister-in-arms will tell you, personal excellence gets stressed from day one of boot camp.”
Those are liberal as well as some conservative beliefs. The “Be all you can be,” phrase is abhorred by many conservatives because it means you are trying to grow out of the group whether a street gang or a Southern village. You are seen as a traitor. But what conservatives HATE really hate about the military is the all for one, the you are responsible for your brother's back, the unit is as strong as all itsd members. Those virtues are condemned by conservatives. They often say JFK was a Republican but all that need be said is his quote:” Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.” That is to very many conservatives eyes is pure socialism. As military people it is our creed.

To the fellow...
....who said his 98 yr. old grandmother sent packages years ago to our military overseas, let me say that the Democratic Party was an entirely different organization back then. It has just decayed over the past 40 years.

Does anyone remember how the Democrats tried to prevent the military votes overseas from being counted in the last election? A huge cabal of Democrats in congress, to in include veterans therein, tried to block their votes.

Pass the word.

Marco 3
4. Servicemembers understand that freedom is not free.
“What we understand is that if American history teaches us anything it is that freedom is a torch passed from one generation to the next.
Someone—the military—has to do the heavy lifting of history.”
Conservatives have little to do with this. If anything they glamorize history into something that never existed. The military has to teach every member that they must function in reality to win.
5. The military shoots guns. Lots of guns.
“Okay, so I thought I’d lighten it up a bit. But I’m only half-joking. Conservatives support gun rights and the use of lethal force to protect innocent people. The military does, too. As I say, violence isn’t senseless. Senseless violence is senseless.”
See there you go again. The vast majority of the American people who are not conservatives feel the same way. Conservatives glamorizes violence; most military people I know view it as a sad necessity and wasteful.
“Admittedly, I’m not a political scientist at Harvard. I’m a former Marine. But that’s precisely my point: whom we link arms with and support says a lot about how we view America—and what we’re willing to do to protect it. “
Then I suggest that you re assess your position. It is flawed. But thank you for writing it.

You have GOT to read this...
I just went and bought 3 copies of Sgt. Martinez's book on Amazon.com for friends and family. And that's when I read this 5-star Amazon review from the very man Sgt. Martinez saved in battle. You must read this:


"My name is Paul Gardner, known in the book as just "Gardner", and as someone who fought in battle with Sgt Martinez, I can and will vouch for this book. If it wasn't for Marco Martinez' actions that day, April 12, 2003, I would not be alive today. The enemy was trying their hardest to shoot me again and finish me off after the initial gun shot wound I suffered, hitting my spinal cord and immediantly paralyzing my body. I was forced to just watch the insurgents shoot round after round at my limp and motionless body. I was so scared and knew I was going to die. I passed out from shock.

What unfolded in the next five minutes while I was passed out was simply the most brave and selfless action I never got to see, just hear about and read about later. Martinez grabbed an enemy RPG and shot it at its own users, threw a frag grenade in the bunker, and stormed the bunker all by himself, killing every single insurgent inside, and allowing me to be medevaced out of there. ALOT of people are responsible for my being alive today, but Martinez' actions that day started my long road to recovery, and I owe the man my life.

Buy this book!!! You won't be disappointed. It's about as raw and dirty as you can get from just reading a memoir. The Iraq War has never been so perfectly documented before. And it shows people that no matter what you did growing up, all the bad stupid mistakes you made, you can be a great person and achieve anything. Martinez is a true American hero, as well as my hero!"

Cpl Paul Gardner USMC (Ret)

Banks
IMO, the ideas you expressed in your post of 0546 are so devoid of any rational logic and sense of reality, they are undeserving of any comment, therefore, no comment.

I wish for you to live in your world - I want NO PART of it.

Tallil2long
"Apparently quite a few liberal/progressives cannot understand loyalty to anything greater than the Party. "

My loyalty is to the Constitution not to a president of any party. I suspect that applies to most moderates. Meanwhile, conservatives seem to crave the reassurance of a strong leader

Martinez inspires
Marco Martinez is the American dream. Beginning at the bottom of the social food chain as a gang member, he worked his way to prosperity, and has published a stellar book about his experiences. Not only is the column right on, but the book as well. I am a college student with little time to read material other than textbooks. I could not put his book down. Martinez serves as an inspiration to young people by sending a message of hope for our generation and our country.

Check out the book on amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/Hard-Corps-Gangster-Marine-Hero/dp/03 07383040/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-1310266-7555069?ie=UTF8&s=book s&qid=1192105993&sr=8-1

Hal D:
writes
"They love the military pomp and history but they really do hate the soldier."
Hal, you are simply a moron!

Marlin Newburn
Don't forget to pass the word too that military veterans many who served in Iraq were elected last election to Congress as Demopcrats. Carney, Murphy, Seztak, Webb shall I go on? You conservatives abandoned the military when you failed to question your leader Bush


Banks: staff writer for Comintern
That post was one of the most despicable collection of words that I have ever seen on this site. The military is unAmerican? That is pure revisionism. Your hatred for men and masculinity is evident as you portray those who serve in our military as members of an underclass. H-m-m? Doesn't his pose a problem for a communist like you? Doesn't your Marxism purport to champion the common man? I guess that the members of our military are too common for you. Go Back to MoveOn.

Talli2long, UncleB
Talli2long, I agree. Some liberals cannot grasp the fact that soldiers do have minds of their own...that they don't parrot the adminstration line...that they do think for themselves.

When liberals fail to grasp that, it indicates how contemptuous they view our soldiers.

Conversely, when conservatives cannot grasp the fact that our military men and women may not necessarily parrot the administration line, they too are guilty of the same condescension toward our military.

A "Military Times" poll conducted last December revealed significant differences of opinion among soldiers serving in Iraq on the question of Bush administration policy regarding the war.

Earth to UncleB: I am not a liberal. I have no use for universities refusing to permit ROTC on campus, or recruiting on campus.

To all,
Still trying to pull up Hal D's military service on line. His record shows up as much as his hero Kerry's does.

Military gone downhill
I used to support the military until I found out something 40% are democrats. it's no wonder we can't win in Iraq. These phony soldiers are screwing it up.

Jaysson
"I used to support the military until I found out something 40% are democrats. it's no wonder we can't win in Iraq. These phony soldiers are screwing it up."

And to make matters worse the nuimber is increasing every day LMAO

HalD
You should really take your meds before posting here.

Liberals are horrified by war
Liberals were not less supportive of the military till the U.S. invented the atomic bomb in 1945. That event got liberals, more than conservatives, thinking that military force had finally reached the point that it could destroy civilization altogether. And from that came a mindset that we have to cut the military down to size before it "drags" us into nuclear war.

Go read the newspaper accounts of the atomic bombing of Japan in the archives of the NY Times and elsewhere. As soon as the news broke that the U.S. had dropped an atomic bomb, even before Japan surrendered at V-J Day, there was already muttering from liberals and "progressive" clergy that America had committed a great sin and that we had now reached the stage that "if we don't end war, war will end us."

Ever since the atomic bombings of 1945, liberals have led the peace marches and the calls for unilateral disarmament of our military. Hollywood started making anti-military movies like "Doctor Strangelove" and "Seven Days in May," both of which had this antinuclear theme underlying them.

For William
Neither have most liberals!

Big difference though--unlike liberals, conservatives DON't cut away at military's needed materiel.

QParker
" The socialist element that controls many facets of American life is committed to driving military people and military values into a pariah subculture."

The military IS a socialist culture by nearly any measure


SteveL
"Liberals are horrified by war"

Well I would hope everyone is horrifed by war. I know that I darn sure am. But that does not mean I am a pacifist by any stretch. I suspect Marco would agree with me.

svpallava
"Big difference though--unlike liberals, conservatives DON't cut away at military's needed materiel. "

They certainly do! Look at Bush's budget submission and not just for this year coming

military voting
Don't be surprised if the military votes increasingly Democratic in the 2008 election.
Not the 60-40 split we've seen in most recent
elections.

Both my brothers in the military say that whoever
has the fastest plan to get out of Iraq will get
a lot of military votes - theirs too probably!

Any opinions?

everyonesfacts
My nephew says that is how about 60% of his unit over there thinks

Hal
Hal you are such a pathetic little creature. It is a good thing you have Roberta Roberta to look after you and small warren. A quote from an Amazon review of Mr Martinez book.....
ALOT of people are responsible for my being alive today, but Martinez' actions that day started my long road to recovery, and I owe the man my life.

Buy this book!!! You won't be disappointed. It's about as raw and dirty as you can get from just reading a memoir. The Iraq War has never been so perfectly documented before. And it shows people that no matter what you did growing up, all the bad stupid mistakes you made, you can be a great person and achieve anything. Martinez is a true American hero, as well as my hero!" Maybe a few liberals could be rescued if they joined the service.
Roberta Roberta: Hal you are pitiful....
Hal: But, but, Roberta..... where's small warren i"ll bet he cares
yea Right!!

Hal
What f-ing military were you in? I'm sorry, I never felt I needed to condemn your SFB idea that we hated one for all,all for one. It's the first lesson you learn assshole, when weapons are supposed to be cleaned and returned to the arms room, and you are faster and better than your buddy. Are you gonna sit around while he struggles and take the cahnce you miss chow? Nope, we wanted to f-ing eat our chow. So we finish the job for the rest of the bunch. There is nothing wrong with that and I daresay you speak for your lousy self when you declare such a thing. The same rules do not apply in the civilian world. They just don't. In the military, I did watch my platoon's back, and they had mine. I would lay down and die for anyone of them, even now. You are a piece of work, LSFB Colonel,ret.

everyonesfacts
All three of my nephews will vote republican, and all three have been, and one still in Iraq. I guess every one has their own opinion.


Roberto: Hal, do you need to powder yourself now?

Good Vs Evil Is A Delusion
I have to agree with Mr. Martinez first statement. And this truism is what makes us a dangerous force in the world. Especially when back by "Bible believing Christians" who can clearly see Good and Evil, that Good triumphs over evil and there will always be wars. God is always on our side. Coupled with the world's strongest military - we become a dangerous force in the world. The delusion is we are always the good guys fighting for freedom.

Since WWII the US has involved itself in 240 countries directly or indirectly over throwing governments, funding death squads or supporting insurgencies. Am I to believe 100% of the time we were the good guys fighting for our ideals and freedoms in all of these ventures?

We are an industrial military complex with an imperialistic agenda to spread economic blackmail and access to resources. In the name of fighting communism, terrorism and spreading democracy and freedom, we engage in endless military adventures to protect our interests, war profiteering and sphere of influence. In doing so, our morals and values are compromised, rationalized and twisted as we talk about:

"The just war", "killing people to save lives", "torture people to save lives", "senseless violence vs non-senseless violence", "collateral damage", "funding of death squads", “assassinating world leaders" "Rendition" all in the name of promoting democracy, freedom and human rights.

We as a nation buy this propaganda that the government spins and the media reports as fact - for the simple reason we believe ourselves to be moral and good. We will not accept anything less from anyone. We do not open to any criticism either domestically (liberals hate America) or internationally.

This is our delusion. We are in denial of the great suffering we cause in the world. We are going to pay the price for these actions. The CIA calls it "blowback".


Hal D
Remember this moronic post from last night on Williams' thread made by you?


****************************
Hal Donahue writes: Wednesday, October, 10, 2007 9:15 PM
An awful lot of KKK folks even had businesscards that said who they were when I lived in SC
****************************


You never answered me: Was a picture of Robert "Sheets" Byrd used as their logo?



RE; Loving the Military is Un-American 1
Hey Banks:

I can think of several reasons why so-called liberals (the modern Democrat Party genus of fauxprogressives and neosocialists) profess hate for the military:

(1) There are several cities east of the Mississippi/Missouri that would be in a sad way without social program spending. Their people are government owned, many never work to enable them to obtain the maximum cradle to grave government entitlements available. These are socialistic badlands for "entitlement" teat-suckers.

(2) Directors of fat-cat services such as Unions and Welfare hate the military because the job and educational opportunities for all that undermine their insatiable appetite for new victims that keeps them rolling in Uncle Sam's money- without much Congressional oversight or the need to compete in a genuinely free market.

RE: Loving the Military is Un-American 2
(3) Armchair social re-programmers have a great enthusiasm for keeping and maintaining uneducated and impoverished victims, as long as they don't have to do it themselves. A shrink could explain why.

(4) The liberals are a welfare state which looks after you not at all and gives you benefits without even ever working for them. For many of the more intelligent colored minorities and poor whites, it's a refuge from the world of competition. -They don't get into the front line (IQs too low) and are never in any real danger, but they can pose as heroes when they come home -[This is so offensive I can’t even demean liberals with an adjustment of it – other than to say of those who are Phony Soldiers, they tend to have a (D) behind their names when the truth is told].

The Founders dreaded the cult of war and the threat it posed to liberty, and so the Constitution did all it could to prevent large permanent forces being maintained on the citizen's dollar. War service was something patriots did in emergencies, not a profession. [Well sugar you might actually want to read the Constitution – as the 2nd Amendment addresses that very point – ‘A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State…’plus Article 2, Section 2 which gives the PRESIDENT the Commander-in-Chief Powers (and does NOT give it to Congress), not to mention specific instructions on equiping and maintaining a Military.] The Founders actually understood Democracy, Freedom, Liberty, the Military and obviously reality much better than today’s liberal – and you.

Hal
Once again, I say you are a fraud if you served like you say and consider the military to be a place for death and destrucion and that no peace was ever obtained through it...Holy cow, You are absolutely deranged. How the hell could you have served honorably if you believe what you spew? How? The forebearers of this Country did nthing and it was all lies according to your interpreting!! Which is so skewed with LLS...my God, I am going to hurl. You flatter yourself and your nephew, halDelusional. Because even if he were part of a huge brigade there ain't no way that 60% follow his and your derangement.

Banks:
writes:
"The "Greatest Generation" were conscripts who had not asked to fight. America came late to both world wars."

This, is the latest war ever that we have joined. It has been long coming, and since you seem to have forgotten this fact, I will remind you of it. Do you remember 9/11? Maybe you should read up on some the acts of wars that have been made against the US dating back to the 70's by the Islamos. You pat yourself on the back way too much, Banks.

Hal: Robbie, do you think my tu tu is to tight?

Max Power and SSGT, et al
You'll find me on military.com before you do Hal D.

And I was never in the military.



Hal D:
Do you still have any business cards from the KKK?

patriotdefender
" Are you gonna sit around while he struggles and take the cahnce you miss chow? Nope, we wanted to f-ing eat our chow. So we finish the job for the rest of the bunch. There is nothing wrong with that and I daresay you speak for your lousy self when you declare such a thing."

I don't condemn it at all quite the contrary I praise it but know you conservatives call that socialism.

" The same rules do not apply in the civilian world. They just don't. In the military, I did watch my platoon's back, and they had mine. I would lay down and die for anyone of them, even now. You are a piece of work, LSFB Colonel,ret. "

See that is my point and that is why so many veterans are so successful - those rules from the military work in civilian life too

Max Power/Bman3
Yeah Max, I still can't seem to pull Hal's record up on line. Thats funny too, because mine comes up there.
Bman3, see your hanging in there at number 3. lol


Roberto: lah lah lah lah lah, Hey Hal, do you know that lah is Hal spelled backwards?

Bman3
"An awful lot of KKK folks even had businesscards that said who they were when I lived in SC"

True story and that was the 80s

On right and wrong
I agree that conservatives tend to see the world in terms of right and wrong. And actually, this is the big problem I have with today's American conservatives. They are a little bit too simple-minded for my taste.

Let me start by saying that I agree that there is such a thing as right and wrong. I generally think it's right to tell the truth and wrong to lie. But I hasten to add that right and wrong are relative concepts and what's right from one person's point of view is wrong from another person's point of view. In other words, the rightness or wrongness of anything is limited to it's particular context.

For example, in Iraq, a lot of the "insurgents" see themselves as fighting back against a foreign occupier. To he and his cohorts, the insurgent doing something noble, good and brave. But to the American soldiers in Iraq, he is the embodiment of evil.

So when you step back from a situation like Iraq, the differences between right and wrong start to become muddled. And conservatives seem to have a hard time grasping this.

Of course, if we ONLY look at the situation from our own point of view, the differences will remain stark. But is that wise. Is it wise to intentionally limit our perspective of a situation? Or is it wiser to have a broader perspective of the situation?

I would argue for the latter, which, I suppose, is why I have such contempt for the views of conservatives when it comes to Iraq. To me it seems that their views are very limited in scope and selfish. By the way, I have the same level of contempt for the Islamic Jihadists.

That's why I tend toward the liberal end of the spectrum when it comes to the occupation of Iraq.

Phylo out.

The only
Hal in PA I could find was a 37 Year old...0-1...hmmm
Hal, I'm full of myself, how about you Robert, Robert

Martinez inspires
Marco Martinez peels away the plastic liberals hide behind yet again. Liberals are too busy fighting the Bush administration to even think about the way they treat the military. Martinez is an asset to America's military and is using his voice to bring much-needed positive publicity to the Marine Corps. Check out his book Hard Corps: From Ganster to Marine Hero on amazon.com. It's an amazing read. As a college student, I have little time to read anything other than textbooks. I couldn't put Hard Corps down. It's a gripping and ripping story.


patriotdefender
"Once again, I say you are a fraud if you served like you say and consider the military to be a place for death and destrucion and that no peace was ever obtained through it...Holy cow, You are absolutely deranged."

See this is a typical rushie type trick. I never ever said: "and that no peace was ever obtained through it". That is why we won the cold war. That is why we had peace. Not because we were peacekeepers but because we were mean, nasty and darn good at dispensing death and destruction.


"How the hell could you have served honorably if you believe what you spew? How? The forebearers of this Country did nthing and it was all lies according to your interpreting!! Which is so skewed with LLS...my God, I am going to hurl. You flatter yourself and your nephew, halDelusional. Because even if he were part of a huge brigade there ain't no way that 60% follow his and your derangement."

Pure irrational spew

military voting
everyonesfacts writes:

Don't be surprised if the military votes increasingly Democratic in 2008.

Well then maybe the Democrats won't try to keep their votes from being counted this time around.

That would be a good thing no matter how they vote.

folks
"This, is the latest war ever that we have joined. It has been long coming, and since you seem to have forgotten this fact, I will remind you of it. Do you remember 9/11? Maybe you should read up on some the acts of wars that have been made against the US dating back to the 70's by the Islamos. You pat yourself on the back way too much, Banks. "

War? What war? Is the nation at war? NO it isn't only our abused military is at war no one else

To jerabaub
AMEN!
The Army is not Republican, not Democrat. It is the Army of the American people -- regardless of what color you are, where you stand on politics, where you come from -- there are soldiers JUST LIKE YOU!

There may statistically be more soldiers who are conservative than liberal, or what have you, but NO GROUP owns the Army.

Martinez inspires again
Martinez peels away the plastic liberals hide behind yet again. Liberals are too busy fighting the Bush administration to pay attention to the military and how they treat the military. Marco is using his voice to bring positive attention the Marine Corps. Thanks, Marco, for your sacrifice and activism.

jerabaub
ok jerabaub I reread your post and, the last statement led me astray. Glad to have you in the ANTI Bizzaro world.

Folks
Be well and try and remember this is about the military not Hal

Phylo Se Fiser
On right and wrong

You really should not play with yourself in public like that!

Tallil2long
"The Army is not Republican, not Democrat. It is the Army of the American people -- regardless of what color you are, where you stand on politics, where you come from -- there are soldiers JUST LIKE YOU!

There may statistically be more soldiers who are conservative than liberal, or what have you, but NO GROUP owns the Army. "

And the minute side does thje country is in deep trouble

and FYI
The list of Advisors and Senior Advisors for VoteVets has now been taken down and gone to cybersapce heaven. Why? Why not list the advisors if in fact they are an honest organization? Let's see, I know there's Hal, Paul Hackett, Fawcett, Everett....but why take it down?

Hal Donahue writes:
Thursday, October, 11, 2007 9:25 AM
Bman3
"An awful lot of KKK folks even had businesscards that said who they were when I lived in SC"

True story and that was the 80s




HAL D:
STFU!!!!


You are a phony, lying, communist jackass. I guess I just described all liberals didn't I.

You never amounted to anything. Never will.

You are probably like Jesse McBeth. Except he lasted 44 days.

Your military service probably consisted of going into the recruiter's office (because your momma made you - to get you out of the house) and being laughed at and laughed out.

You probably became the poster child for the recruiter's office. The poster reads:

"Join now - So we can protect the Stupid"
(Insert Hal D's picture here)


And why were you getting all of those business cards from KKK members? Why were you associating with them? Trading KKK cards like baseball cards?

When you see David Duke, tell him Robert "Sheets" Byrd said hello.


Hey Hal, do you want to go grizzly bear hunting?


On second thought, Hal, do not respond to this.
Do not ever address another post to me.




anti-militarists
It's possible to be a pure pacifist and thereby be anti-military. Those folks must realize that they must be willing to be enslaved ultimately. That doesn't account for most anti-military. I often think some of the most vocal are very disturbed by the bravery and sacrifice that they themselves cannot muster up; their choices therefore are to admit that and be grateful to those who do have it, or to adopt an attitude of disdain. Being vociferously anti-war/anti-military covers up alot of fear and guilt.

Banks writes:
In the far-off days...we did not see this surrogate gloating over uniforms, medals (such as Petraeus's collection)

How about Max Clelland's Purple Heart Liberal gloating.

Army reg 600-8-22 para 2-8e states

h. Examples of injuries or wounds which clearly do not justify award of the Purple Heart are as follows:
(1) Frostbite or trench foot injuries.
(2) Heat stroke.
(3) Food poisoning not caused by enemy agents.
(4) Chemical, biological, or nuclear agents not released by the enemy.
(5) Battle fatigue.
(6) Disease not directly caused by enemy agents.
(7) Accidents, to include explosive, aircraft, vehicular, and other accidental wounding not related to or caused by
enemy action.
(8) Self-inflicted wounds, except when in the heat of battle and not involving gross negligence.
(9) Post traumatic stress disorders.
(10) Jump injuries not caused by enemy action.

Anything Jump out at you?

Bravo Zulu, Marco.
Phylo Se Fiser writes: Thursday, October, 11, 2007 9:25 AM
"On right and wrong
I agree that conservatives tend to see the world in terms of right and wrong. And actually, this is the big problem I have with today's American conservatives. They are a little bit too simple-minded for my taste."

I see your remarks as the essence of what's wrong with liberalism.

Nicely done, Marco. Just ordered the book from Amazon. When I was a Navy Corpsman in Vietnam, I served with many young Latino men who could have been you. The Crotch did a good job or giving them tools to use in later life that they probably wouldn't have acquired otherwise.

Carry on.

Bman3
Hey Hal, do you want to go grizzly bear hunting?

Oh Oh can I come too! I'll bring the Mag!

Ron:
Would your post above be #7 or #8. Or how about 7 AND 8.


How about #10, he did 'jump' out of the helo didn't he.

I did not see one for specifically excluding stupidity. Just as alcohol and driving doesn't mix, alcohol and explosives don't seem to mix very well either.

Big Difference
There's a big difference between working in the civilian world. In the civilian world you don't have to worry about covering someones behind. In the military if you don't cover someones behind the ultimate result is death. Also there's a sense of comraderie in the military that doesn't really exist in the civilian world.

Bman3
If alcohol and accidents meant purple hearts when I was in, there would have been a lot of them issued. LOL Ohhh, the good ole days. I miss them lots.


Hal: Robbie, have you seen my nickers?

Liberalism in a Nutshell
Phylo writes: "I generally think it's right to tell the truth and wrong to lie. But I hasten to add that right and wrong are relative concepts and what's right from one person's point of view is wrong from another person's point of view. In other words, the rightness or wrongness of anything is limited to it's particular context."

NUFF SAID! STOP SHILLARY 08!

Marco Martinez
Hats Off to you! I WILL be buying your book this weekend! As long as there are young men & women like you, America can survive ANYTHING, even SHILLARY!

To Hal Donahue
"And the minute side does [own the army] thje country is in deep trouble"

This is why liberal/progressives need to encourage soldiers and seek a better understanding of the military, rather than keep perpetuating silly rumor and myth.

The NY City Dogg writes:
"What we have here is now a 50 year history of the white house (dems and repugs) and the military leadership lying to the American public about the nature and the progress of military operations."

Actually, What we have here is a failure to communicate.

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

so you don't see it when told, or turn it on its head to suit you.


NYC Dogg writes
"First it was Korea and then Vietnam and now iraq - in each one of these cases our military has been used against far weaker enemies - almost exclusively peasant or third-world peoples - with a disparity in kill rates and injuries that leaves the smell of war crimes."

It's obvious from this you don't know squat about military history. We had a large kill ratio becuase we had a huge technological advantage and better training.
Since when does that constitute a war crime?
Let me fill you in on a few other things.

North Korea-armed and trained by the Soviets and Chinese.

North Vietnam and VC-armed and trained by the Soviets. Equiped with some of the most sopisticated weaponry the U.S. had ever encountered including state of the art Surface to Air Missiles.

Did you think the Soviets and Chinese are third world peasant countries?

Hey Shaggy
for distaining the military as much as you do, you sure have seen a lot of movies of the military. hmmmm


shaggy: arf arf arf

Hal Donahue
Morning, Courtney.

Phylo Se Fiser writes: Thursday, October, 11, 2007 9:25 AM
On right and wrong
I agree that conservatives tend to see the world in terms of right and wrong. And actually, this is the big problem I have with today's American conservatives. They are a little bit too simple-minded for my taste.

Let me start by saying that I agree that there is such a thing as right and wrong. I generally think it's right to tell the truth and wrong to lie. But I hasten to add that right and wrong are relative concepts and what's right from one person's point of view is wrong from another person's point of view. In other words, the rightness or wrongness of anything is limited to it's particular context.

I guess in your view hat when a gentleman or gentlemen decide to relieve you of your property or your life that it right from their point of view, and wrong from yours. Therefore, they do not need to answer for their actins as they were right in their beliefs.

To quote from a great philospher, "What a maroon."

Hal & doggieturd
Hal does seem to have a littlebit different approach to things today. Hmmm....maybe the other "Hal" took the day off and papa sore-hole assigned some other "@@#$%*&" to "perform "in his place. But who cares. doggiepoo is still doggiepoo.
Hal: what is that smell. Have you had your fingers where they shouldn"t be again
Roberta Roberta: No Hal dear. It's just the doggiepoo on my shoe. Can I borrow your scarf for a moment?

Stedes writes
"Since WWII the US has involved itself in 240 countries directly or indirectly....We are an industrial military complex with an imperialistic agenda to spread economic blackmail and access to resources....We are in denial of the great suffering we cause in the world. We are going to pay the price for these actions"

Since there are only 194 todat, it would seem a little difficult to be involved in 240 countries.

And who served?
More Democrats, or more Republicans?

Who served?

Our leaders see us on bended knee and laugh at us, sending us to die, as they know they need not demand our obeisance. They have it automatically.

We think we're serving our country, not their interests.

They think of us as their toys.

Who served?

More Democrats than Republicans, and you can take that to Google and verify it yourself.

Lumberjack7392
Since there are only 194 todat, it would seem a little difficult to be involved in 240 countries.

Yes - Thank you for the correction. I meant 240 incidents of involvement. Multiple times in one country.

The trut lies somewhere in between.
Conservatives fantasize about being Sgt. York, a deeply religious man, deservedly earning the Medal of Honor. Progressives fantasize about being General Joshua Chamberlain, an "intellectual" college professor, who became a hero freeing the slaves and being nothing lower than a general officer.

Both are so rare that, though true, they may as well be fiction. No one wants to die or be maimed, but in order to achieve these conservative or progressive fantasies one must risk the grave. Men of combat experience, be it air, land or sea, have seen the contents of a military mans grave and prefer to remain contemplatively silent out of respect for the unfortunate and in grateful thanks for their own salvation.

In truth, neither Left and Right do not treat men of war with both the respect and understanding that they deserve and in the end, "-You bet that Tommy sees".

Stedes failure to recognize
Stedes "could" be right about the 240 countries. But what he fails to recognize is that probably 238 of the 240 ASKED US TO BE THERE.
Roberta Roberta: Hal, who is this person named Stedes that sent you the flowers. You don't get that excited when I send you flowers.

Roger writes:
Who served?

More Democrats than Republicans, and you can take that to Google and verify it yourself.

You might put that in historic context. Given that the Democratic party is over 200 years old, it would be a given that more Democrats served than Republicans, particulary during WWII, when there was for all intents and purposes just one party.

SSGT
SSGT writes: Thursday, October, 11, 2007 10:37 AM
Hey Shaggy
for distaining the military as much as you do, you sure have seen a lot of movies of the military. hmmmm

I think SunThe1's spot on comments at 9:46 AM sum Shaggy up perfectly.

Sheepdogg (And to all Libs to which it applies)- It's OK, we forgive you. Throw away the guilt and shame. Not everyone is CAPABLE of serving in the military either mentally, emotionally or physically, even if they want to like you!. Just be supportive and appreciative of those who do!

Conservative Military
I was born in 1933. My father was a WW1 vet and
I loved to see his uniform and helmet in the attic. He had medals that he kept in a box, I
always admired the Heart with the picture of George Washington on it. When I started school
we were taught American History. In 1941 my uncles wre all in the Military as well as my oldest sisters husband. I had a map on my wall where I followed all the battles. I became a Boy Scout
and learned "I will do my Duty honor my God and
my couintry and obey the Scout law. I joined the Navy in 1952 and switched to the AF in 56 abd retired in 1975. I looked at what socialists (I use their true name) were doing to our history and Heritage I too wrote a book about our founding
and the men who carried it out. I answered a few
questions on Ammendments 1 and 2. America is God's Country and I will do my utmost to keep it that way.

Stedes writes
"We are an industrial military complex with an imperialistic agenda to spread economic blackmail and access to resources....We are in denial of the great suffering we cause in the world. We are going to pay the price for these actions"

This was written over 30 years ago and is one of the greatest editorials ever written by a non-american journalist. BTW I seriously doubt if any american journalist would ever write anything like this.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/sinclair.asp

Martinez is actually a real politician
Yes, a real dirty politician, rather than a true military man. I can only wonder how many soldiers from liberal families he insulted? Besides, George Washington would slap him a good one if he were here today. America, has now given way to powerful morality and replaced it with guns, and this guy is ever so elated over it. Reminds a one of the Hitler guys.

OOPS
Sorry sheepdog meant The NY City Dogg in my last post!

Conservatives Love the Military?
Dear Mr. Martinez:

In your column today your write, "Whom we link arms with and support says a lot about how we view America—and what we’re willing to do to protect it."

Your words bring to mind the Sept. 29 Town Hall column of Kathryn Jean Lopez, in which Ms. Lopez writes:

"Pete Hegseth, the articulate head of Veterans for Freedom -- folks who know true wartime sacrifice -- shares my opinion. 'I don't understand why he wouldn't call on Americans to serve their country, in uniform, in this extremely important war. President Bush understands the stakes of the fight in Iraq and should call on the best and brightest to serve on the battlefield. That message, to me, seems like a no-brainer."

Question is if, in fact, "Conservatives Love the Military," why didn't the President link arms with "the best and brightest" instead of surrounding himself with loyal and grateful incompetents to fight a war that Sen. John McCain on several occasions has stated has been "terribly mismanaged." A war that as long as twenty months ago Wiliam F. Buckley, in his Town Hall column and in a subsequent Bloomberg interveiw called "Pres. Bush's failure."

And as far as protecting our country, I refer you to Rich Lowry's Oct. 8 Town Hall Column in which Lowry, editor of the National Review, wrote:

"THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS NEVER BROUGHT TO BEAR ITS RESOURCES IN A TRULY NATIONAL EFFORT TO WIN (THE IRAQ WAR)."

Mr. Bush, our Commander-in-Chief, for five years has been telling the American people how essential it is to our nation's security and survival to prevail in Iraq and how dire for the United States are the consequences of failure. And still he failed to fully utilize the nation's once-considerable resources which could have ensured swift victory, minimal casualties, the stability of Iraq and the security of the U.S.

-- Dave Futornick, West Orange, NJ

Rob
I did not say we are an empire like ancient Rome. We do not need to be. We have economic power Rome did not have.

Lets look at some of the countries you mention.

Japan functions as a US Satellite. In exchange for access to US Markets they must agree to host US military bases. The Island of Okinawa is openly rejects US bases and is it casuing anger and resentment among the People there. There is even a popular anti-american communist party in Japan.

In South Korea, the US has supported three decades of Military dictatorship. In 1997 South Korea went Bankrupt due to our support.

We have 61 military bases throughout the world which is casuing resentment. Remember the ski lift cable cut in Italy by US jet. The rape of a Japanes girl in Okinawa.

Also, Economic aid is not really aid. There are too many strings attached. The IMF, World Bank and USAID are designed to loan money to third world projects to hire US and Western business. It is one of the major contributors to third world debt and poverty.

But there are many other examples. Essentially if you do not support US interests, we will either clandestenly or overtly involve ourself in your affairs.

Also - the philosophy of the neo-con Think Tank "Project for a New American Century" is exactly to be a empire. But a Good empire. By Spreading our values of Democracy, freedom, open markets and human rights through military force, will help promote a world in support of US interets, security and access to resources. http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.ht m

Here is a recommended reading list which explains this in more detail.

Blowback, Second Edition: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire by Chalmers Johnson

Rogue State: A Guide to the Worlds Only Superpower by William Blum

But I did mis-speak. 240 incidents of US involvement in country affairs, not 240 countries. I stand corrected.

Do Conservatives Love the Military?
Dear Mr. Martinez:

In your column today your write, "Whom we link arms with and support says a lot about how we view America—and what we’re willing to do to protect it."

Your words bring to mind the Sept. 29 Town Hall column of Kathryn Jean Lopez, in which Ms. Lopez writes:

"Pete Hegseth, the articulate head of Veterans for Freedom -- folks who know true wartime sacrifice -- shares my opinion. 'I don't understand why he wouldn't call on Americans to serve their country, in uniform, in this extremely important war. President Bush understands the stakes of the fight in Iraq and should call on the best and brightest to serve on the battlefield. That message, to me, seems like a no-brainer."

Question is if, in fact, "Conservatives Love the Military," why didn't the President and his team link arms with "the best and brightest" instead of surrounding themselves with loyal and grateful incompetents to fight a war that Sen. John McCain on several occasions has stated has been "terribly mismanaged." A war that as long as twenty months ago Wiliam F. Buckley, in his Town Hall column and in a subsequent Bloomberg interveiw called "Pres. Bush's failure."

And as far as protecting our country, I refer you to Rich Lowry's Oct. 8 Town Hall Column in which Lowry, editor of the National Review, wrote:

"THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS NEVER BROUGHT TO BEAR ITS RESOURCES IN A TRULY NATIONAL EFFORT TO WIN (THE IRAQ WAR)."

Mr. Bush, our Commander-in-Chief, for five years has been telling the American people how essential it is to our nation's security and survival to prevail in Iraq and how dire for the United States are the consequences of failure. And still he failed to fully utilize the nation's once-considerable resources which could have ensured swift victory, minimal casualties, the stability of Iraq and the security of the U.S.

DaveF

Ron
No Problem I didn't see it anyway and even if I had I probably wouldn't have said anything knowing it wasn't for me.

mmi-DaveF
Wow! If only Pres Bush had you to advise him back then!

UncleB
Who in Iraq, Grenada, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatamala, Venezuela, Argentina, Ecuador, Cuba asked us to be there? We went there specifically to overthrow existing soverign governments.

The people that did ask us to be there were Ruthless Dicatators to prop up thier regime. El Salvador, Honduras, Indonesia, Iran (1953 to install the Shah)

These is only a small example. Here is a web site that lists all the US inventions.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=us_i nterventions_project

stedes writes:
Japan functions as a US Satellite. In exchange for access to US Markets they must agree to host US military bases. The Island of Okinawa is openly rejects US bases and is it casuing anger and resentment among the People there. There is even a popular anti-american communist party in Japan.

In South Korea, the US has supported three decades of Military dictatorship. In 1997 South Korea went Bankrupt due to our support.

We have 61 military bases throughout the world which is casuing resentment. Remember the ski lift cable cut in Italy by US jet. The rape of a Japanes girl in Okinawa.

Last time I looked South Korea was a democracy, and has been for many years. In the case of the Okinawa girl, the military man was tried and convicted in a military court martial. In the Italian incident we apologized and pad compensation, and punished the pilot.

Several years ago there was a push to close and consolidate bases in both Asia and the Pacific. there were howls of protests from the nations affected, because of the lost economic benefit to the host nations, and the idea was shelved. The Philippines demanded that we close both Clark AFB, (which was unusable after Mt Pinatubo's eruption, and required a great deal of repair to become usuable) and NRF Subic Bay, and we did, IAW their wishes. When we packed up and left, the Filipinos cried that we should have given them some warning, and help.
Evert time we suggest bringing the US troops in South Korea home, the DEMOCRATICALLY elected government protests, and demand that we stay, so we do.

N. Iraq
For those of you who follow this kind of thing:

Strator just reported Turkish incursion into N Iraq. Looks like more then just a bug hunt. F-16's, a couple of snakes and three of their Special Forces and Ranger teams.

Begging your indulgence
This is not strictly on topic, but I heard Jimmy Carter insist yesterday that indeed the United States does use torture to interrogate prisoners and I must vent now without delay and for purely selfish, therapeutic reasons. Thank you.
In his persistent, pathetic quest for relevance, Jimmy Carter continues to offer his moronic mumblings for all who will listen, even as those few who do listen greet him with an uneasy silence born of embarrassment that so great a nation could have elected, even in the aftermath of Watergate, such a pusillanimous non-entity.
No one that I know of, Democrat or Republican, solicits the opinion of Mr. Carter on any subject whatsoever, so why does he insist on re-surfacing from time to time to refresh our memory of his monumental incompetence?
The time to leave a meaningful legacy is while you are President, not in the after years when you have zero authority ot change your failures in office.
Thankfully, gone with the wind is the vacuous grin. Dare we hope that the lumbering lips will soon follow?
Please, Mr. Carter stop humiliating yourself and the country and enjoy your retirement years in comfortable--and silent--oblivion. No one wants or needs your "help".

Stedes
Do you not agree that the Japanese and the South Koreans enjoy a high standard of living thanks to our involvement? Do you not agree that the Eastern European countries that were formally under Soviet domination are starting to enjoy a higher standard of living thanks to our involvement?
In fact most of the Eastern European countries that we helped "liberate" from Soviet domination are now some of our biggest allies in the GWOT by donating troops, logistical support and use of their facilities.
Do you not agree that when diaster strikes anywhere in the world the U.S. is usually the first country to donate relief supplies and help people recover?
Are you against people having a higher standard of living?


Ron
If only nmi would have just come out and told us that this is the only conflict in military history that has been mismanaged, I would not have questioned it one bit! Like you said, where was nmi at the begining?


Roberto: squirt squirt squirt... How do ya like that Hal?

Hak Donahue
reminds us of the former military men who were elected as democrats. He neglects to remind us they are conservative democrats and are having trouble submitting to the democrat party discipline holding them in line from voting their own philosophy. How long will they stay in line and how long can they satisfy their constituency and the party at the same time?

To Roger
If the next batch of freshman Republican congressmen were to bring the Republican 'prior-service' average over that of the Democrats, does that mean that the Democrats suddenly become less patriotic or less supportive of the military?
No.

My wife has never served. Does that mean she never has been and can never be, as patriotic or as supportive of the military as any person who has served?
No.

Your point about more Democrats in congress having served is, even if correct, meaningless.


loco
"...He neglects to remind us they are conservative democrats and are having trouble submitting to the democrat party discipline holding them in line from voting their own philosophy. How long will they stay in line and how long can they satisfy their constituency and the party at the same time? "

I realise that this is VERY difficult for you to accept but the Democratic Party accepts all types. I know most of the new guys well and they are doing a great job and guess what they are liked at home too. Oh one last point they are moderates not conservatives but you folks have gon so fringe you amy not realise that

Max Power writes:
SSGT
I love it how as soon as we start talking about Hal and his service record not showing up on military.com he disappears.

maybe we should start that as soon as he starts posting....

I just call him Courtney, since he is an exact copy of Courtney Massengale.

Tallil2long
"Your point about more Democrats in congress having served is, even if correct, meaningless."

I didn't read his point but I do think D or R with military experience is very important. I suspect that with a larger military contingent in Congress we may well not have gone into Iraq or if we did we would have with better forces. I know even working the Hill back in the 80's so many Congressman had no clue what I was talking about when I was talking military programs. The other reason for more military experience is that they just might aid vets and their families

Lumberjack7392
Your correct on that. Hal beats feets so fast when that comes up. Its my mission to find him trolling wherever that may be, and shoo him away.


Hal: Oh Robbie, they just won't leave us alone.

Tallil2long
"This is why liberal/progressives need to encourage soldiers and seek a better understanding of the military, rather than keep perpetuating silly rumor and myth. "

Here we agree 100%

SSGT
BOO! LMAO

Hal Doofus writes:
I realise that this is VERY difficult for you to accept but the Democratic Party accepts all types. I know most of the new guys well and they are doing a great job and guess what they are liked at home too. Oh one last point they are moderates not conservatives but you folks have gon so fringe you amy not realise that

Courtney: Ask Bob Casey about that, if you could.

They are so moderate that they do everything the leadership tells them.

NYC Doggg
"he's dead on with the Bush doctrine of torture and lying. I read what he had to say this morning - and, as usual, instead of replying to his words you attack him, validating everything he said..."

Relax Max is rabid but now Bush can be dragged before the Hague as soon as he leaves office


NYC D!pshit writes:
When we attack or invade a nation that never lifted a finger towards us - like Vietnam, Korea or Iraq.

PS - Since you guys are such homos, i've flagged all the posters whom i thought flagged me. Everytime I'm flagged in the future - particularly since I insutled no one, i will retaliate in kind...

First, I have NEVER flagged you, despite such despicable statemens like the one above.

Second, I guess you need to condemn Britain, France, Turkey, Greece, Australia, France and others in the UN for "invading" South Korea in 1950, and Australia again in 1966 in Vietnam.

NYC DOGG
First off, I agree. Why you got flagged is a good question. There was no need for it. Second,
if you don't mind me asking. And I'm being serious here for a moment. Why are you so grumpy all the time? And I am really not digging you, or playin around. Why are you so mad at everything? Come on man. Lighten up some. Make some funnies once and a while.

Lumberjack7392
If you are addressing me little man, I know Bob and the Senate leadership is happy with him also. He is a strong independant man and a strong supporter of the military and veterans

Stedes don't speak for me, please!
Plenty of people in the countries you mention and other countries who suffer for lack of freedom probably pray every day for the US to come and liberate them.

The black legend of American interventionism is just the one-sided version of those who persist in ignoring the fact that America is respected, love and imitated by many around the world.

Do you really believe that Hungary, Poland, Latvia, Georgia, Checoslovakia,Tibet, etc., wouldn't have welcomed the USMC with open arms?

Do you really believe that our friends in Viet-Nam, Cambodia, Laos and the Philippines were all corrupted gangsters, without honor or morals?

What is your experience in fighting a totalitarian dictatorship?

Do you really beieve that a post-modern, ideological, totalitarian dictator, who owns the mass communication media, the armed forces and the economy, can be deposed without outside help?

Just like in Iraq anyone who is a friend of the United States is discredited in every foreign confrontation the left buys into the prejudices of the enemies of America.

And that is why the Left abhors the military.

It takes a lot of blindness to deny that the Soviet Union, and not the United States, was the evil empire.

Why else did they broke up?

Hal
ARGH! lmao

To Hal Donahue
Oh, I think it would be a very good thing to have more former servicemembers in Congress. While not every former servicemember is good or competent or patriotic, having more would provide a greater pool of knowledge about the tools they have to wield.

But Roger's point seemed to be that whichever party had a statistical advantage in prior-service members must be automatically more patriotic, etc.
I wouldn't agree to this propostition. My wife is an oustandingly patriotic person, and she's never served.

Hal Doofus writes:
Lumberjack7392
If you are addressing me little man, I know Bob and the Senate leadership is happy with him also. He is a strong independant man and a strong supporter of the military and veterans

Courtney, I was referring to his father at the 1992 DNC. Try reading for understanding, you officious little prick.

Tallil2long
"But Roger's point seemed to be that whichever party had a statistical advantage in prior-service members must be automatically more patriotic, etc.
I wouldn't agree to this propostition. My wife is an oustandingly patriotic person, and she's never served."

Nor do I. A lobbyist from a very conservative organization was speaking to a very conservative congressman and the congressman was saying how wiithout the WWII GI bill his Dad used that he would never have gotten the opportunity to be a congressman. The lobbyist says then you will support a new GI bill for the troops? The very conservative cogressman said no way we can't afford it. My point is vets and people with ties will still not always support the troops or vets either. Bob Casey is a good example he strongly supports vets and the military and no one in his family served. But as you agreed it is not a patriotic litmus test

Lumberjack7392
You are such a bitter little man try and smile once in a while. Why do you guys keep going back in history instead of looking forward or around you now?

A liberal who loves the military
I'm a liberal who loves the military. Always have. I grew up with the images of WWII in my mind, and was proud of my father and his decorations. What all too many of my fellow liberals don't get is the following:

1. War isn't going to disappear. It never has. While not all wars need to involve the US, there have been, and will be, wars in which our involvement is necessary, if only for our own survival. If it's a choice between us or 'them' (Nazis, Communists, Muslims), I want the winner to be 'us.' Many liberals really think that all wars can be avoided, that there should be some sort of mutually satisfying negotiation process that will always be able to keep two sides from fighting. Generally, peace is preferable to war, but not on every occasion. And Hitler would have still been Hitler, even if he'd done a workshop on anger management.

2. All of the things liberals value--the freedoms Americans believe in, the opportunity to oppose all forms of oppression and discrimination, the liberation of people from servitude--would vanish if the US could not protect itself. We would also lose any capacity to bring about such results in any other part of the world.

3. American soldiers are not killers. I know enough about military training, and have known enough people who've served, to know that our soldiers are not taught to be bands of marauders. The rare American soldier who crosses the line between discipline and criminal brutality is just that--rare. American forces have never done anything like the Japanese "Rape of Nanking," for example, or behaved with the savagery shown in Bosnia.

4. Finally, unlike most liberals, I like guns. I like armor as well. Although I'm not a military historian by training, I read and enjoy military history. Very, very few liberals do this, which is most unfortunate, for them.

Hal D
If PEANUT BRAIN hasnt been dragged before the Hague then what makes you think BUSH will be. We all know Carter started all these Problems in the Middle East to start with. All I have to say is Torture of Americans by the Hands of IRAN for 444 days. He has the B#LLS to talk about troture when he gave this country 4 yrs of torture ubder his Communist REGIME. Lets see Higher gas prices in the history, highest Interest rates in History, Lines at gas stations that today the ACLU would have him Impeached for., and of course the most famous 444 days of horrrific torture for white people, remember Jesse Jackson got all the minirities out of IRAN I bet that is a shocker top some. But the worst thing PEANUT BRAIN does is running around the world making MILLIONS of Dollars bashing the Country he ran for 4 years. What a shame so dont give me this crap that Carter was a great Amnerican .

History
HalD writes:

Why do you guys keep going back in history instead of looking forward or around you now?

Something about doomed to repeat it.. or something like that.

PLEASE tell me when you posted "now Bush can be dragged before the Hague as soon as he leaves office" you were just pressing buttons!

Being such forward looking type, can't you see the dangers to OUR country (and Allies) if that happens?

Hal Doofus writes:
Lumberjack7392
You are such a bitter little man try and smile once in a while. Why do you guys keep going back in history instead of looking forward or around you now?

Who's bitter, Courtney?

So much to comment on, so little time.
Mr Martinez, thanks for your great article. I think in many parts you are right on. I think you may have missed one or two. the one which comes to mind is stated best by a longstanding LIB fav:

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for ..."

The cold truth is that if there is nothing worth dying for there is nothing worth living for either.

P. Henry said
"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"

I have not had the opportunity to be in the military but my family has and and I will give every breath I have to the preservation of the liberties our Fathers, and you, have bought for us.

one more shot
P Henry:

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.

Banks and No BS
America's turn rightward after 9/11 was to be expected, but the ill advised adventure in Iraq has created a jingosistic atmosphere not seen since William Randolph Hearst revved up America to go to war against Spain. Our current militarism is part guilt over the horrible way returning Vietnam troops were greeted. Our generation still remembers that ingratitude. There is no real scientific evidence that conservatives love the military any more than liberals do. In WW II the opposite was the case. Right now, almost all of us support the troops but less than 25% support the Iraq mission. But conservatives take the stance that not supporting the mission is akin to not supporting the troops - not true! Banks and No BS have it right. The founding fathers would be aghast at today's militarism. They envisioned an America that stayed out of foreign adventures - they saw first hand the stupidity of the European wars and wanted no part of that. Our founding fathers only went to war as a last resort, something George W. Bush should learn.

To dale
"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for ..."

The writer of the song didn't give humans enough credit. As long as we humans run our own affairs on this earth, we will find plenty of reasons to kill each other.

Bobzmcishl

lib/con != dem/gop
Bobzmcishl:There is no real scientific evidence that conservatives love the military any more than liberals do. In WW II the opposite was the case.

This would look true if the parties had not changed since then. However in the 30's and 40's the Democrat party was conservative and the GOP was liberal. The Dem. party became liberal in 1968. the GOP moved toward conservative on 1964 and became that in 1980.

For proof compare the tax policies (first hand please) of Kennedy and Reagan, and the economic policies of Nixon and Clinton. You will see that Kennedy was conservative and Nixon was liberal. I think it is becoming obvious now that Bush is unfettered from a future election that he also is liberal.

What is your take on this?

To Bobzmcishl
Boy, hope you don't consider Madison to be a Founding Father. During his administration, the U.S. declared an uneccessary (and extremely ill-advised) war with Britain, launched an invasion of foreign soil (Canada), saw its capital burned, and generally made a real hash of things. New England Federalists even threatened to secede if the government didn't end the war.

By the bye, for those of you who believe the war was necessary, please note that Britain did not cease impressing American sailors nor hassling American shipping as a result of the war. This would have happend anyway following Napoleon's final overthrow when the Royal Navy was stood down, reducing the demand for sailors, and normal trade relations reestablished with the Continent, eliminating Britain's need to stop and search neutral shipping.
In fact, the damage done to American trade due to the war was vastly greater than simply bearing up and waiting for the Napoleonic Wars to end. Britain's highhanded prewar ways were really only an economic inconvenience. The only REAL reason for going to war was prestige -- certainly not a case of 'last resort'.
Incidentally, losing our capital and bungling the invasions of Canada did NOT improve our prestige, even with the high-profile naval victories and the last-second win at New Orleans.


John Konap Flunks Math
He states: 60% of the troops via campaign donations do not support Bush’s Iraq war strategy?

But from the source he cites: "So far this year, 40 percent of military money has gone to Democrats for Congress and president, according to the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics."

So -- even if the statistics are correct -- John K. has it backwards. Dems get 40% -- not 60%.

As for the validity of the report, note the asterisk: "*Data reflects contributions greater than $200. The Federal Election Commission does not require recipients to itemize smaller donations or disclose those contributors' names and occupations."

Question -- how many enlisted personnel will kick in more than $200 bucks for any candidate?

SunSword
go to military.com and look at their polls.

Sun Sword writes
Question -- how many enlisted personnel will kick in more than $200 bucks for any candidate?

Thats a great question..Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer. All their interested in is poll numbers which don't mean a thing.

Scroll by trolls
Wow. My scroll wheel is going to fail. All the trolls are on this thread.


Book
I recommend the book by Marco Martinez. Compelling reading.


"Military Lovin' " Dipsh!t writes:
An interesting list you put up there - all countries that have engaged in empire, colonization and genocide - or are the result of such. Duly noted and condemned.

I am quite sure that the South Koreans would just love to have the "lifestyle" of ther North Korean counterparts. You know starvation, shoddy housing, GULAGSs, dictatorship, secret police, no human rights, no personal freedoms, no consumer goods, no utilities, a sh!tty economy, and being an international charity.

Military Lovin Dogg
now thats funny, Dogg. Makes me want to stop calling you shaggy. I might have to bump you up to rin tin tin (rinny). Yeah I like that one. And I truely hope that when you say you admire the military, you mean it. But with all of your past posts rinny, you sure don't convince us. And as far suffering, even though you don't see it, an awful lot of us suffer with worry for family members we have over there. My support is unwavering for them, wether I agree or not. Its for them.
take ur easy rinny. have a good evening. We'll be back at it tomorrow.

Rinny: ruff ruff
sorry, could not help myself, Dogg

To Military Lovin' Dogg
dig the new handle...

Talli2long
Hi! Awfully late there isn't it? My hubby is at the FOB there. Say hey if you're ever down his way.

Devoid of virtue?
You say that your Staff Sargeant showed you that "all I had done up to that point was crap and devoid of virtue". A statement as sweepingly negative as that suggests nothing but negative things about the military. To ignore any potential good in your past is to ignore experiences and knowledge that shaped you in favour of a homogenised militaristic view of how one should behave, believe and exist.

Not all that good, in my opinion.

wow25684
Perhaps you need to read his book to figure out where he is coming from with that statement.

reply to Tallil2long
Madison is about as authentic as you can get when it comes to Founding Fathers. Being the principal author of the Constitution will do that for you.


You're right on target, however, about the War of 1812. Ill-advised, idiotic, and unnecessary.As any gamer will tell you, when the bad guys get to burn your capital, you've not done well.

The moral I draw from this sorry episode is that sometimes presidents, even Founding Fathers, can screw up. I"m not entirely convinced that the Mexican War or the Spanish-American War were really necessary as well.

Americans should learn from history not to avoid all war, or to mindlessly endorse any and every war, but to recognize that our leaders need to have common sense, to have the nation's true interests as their prime directive, and to leave their egos or other parts of their anatomy they might use in contests tucked away.

Emotional Attachments to the Military?
I dont get it. Why should anyone dem/lib or repub/con attach a emotions such as love or hate to what is essentially a government institution with its own set of functions within?

Go Marines!
A conservative Latino who loves this country? Will you marry me?

Thank you for your service! God Bless America!

Now let's see what kind of bashing I get for wasting comment space...

Wayfinder
You mentioned something about a "paddlefoot". What exactly is that?

Stedes let me guess?
You are a white guy

You have no Vietnamese, Cuban or, Granadinan personal friend.

You hold a certain intellectual comtempt for anyone who loves this country since in your mind love of country indicates ignorance.

You think that Europe (the continent that invented communism, Nazi-facism, colonialism, and real imperialism) is more righteous and deserving of imitation than the US.

Everything you need to know you learned in college.

Am I wrong?

stedes: Stop reading Chomsky
stedes:
Stop reading Chomsky & stop perceiving reality through a post-modern, neo-Marxist prism.

Why? Indeed.
Because Marco, conservatives would rather YOU do the fighting, so they don't have to. If they have YOU. the military, it means they can continue to shop and watch American Idol and smoke Cuban cigars with impunity while guys like you do their dirty work. They'll put a yellow ribbon on their bumper, but don't expect them to do much else - their support begins and ends on the bumper. If you were sent into Iraq on a lie, don't expect them to ensure that you don't die for that lie. They want you to stay there on the false hope that the so-called "Islamofascists" terrorists will stay where you are and not come here. You are the bait for their boogeyman, see? But don't fear, Marco, because so long as you continue to stick to their line of reasoning regarding Iraq and our occupation there, you won't have to worry about them smearing your good work and good name. If you should wake up and realize that this war is a lie then please watch your back Marco, because the conservatives on the right will have you dragged through the mud in no time flat. Count on it.

Why? Indeed.
Because Marco, conservatives would rather YOU do the fighting, so they don't have to. If they have YOU. the military, it means they can continue to shop and watch American Idol and smoke Cuban cigars with impunity while guys like you do their dirty work. They'll put a yellow ribbon on their bumper, but don't expect them to do much else - their support begins and ends on the bumper. If you were sent into Iraq on a lie, don't expect them to ensure that you don't die for that lie. They want you to stay there on the false hope that the so-called "Islamofascists" terrorists will stay where you are and not come here. You are the bait for their boogeyman, see? But don't fear, Marco, because so long as you continue to stick to their line of reasoning regarding Iraq and our occupation there, you won't have to worry about them smearing your good work and good name. If you should wake up and realize that this war is a lie then please watch your back Marco, because the conservatives on the right will have you dragged through the mud in no time flat. Count on it.

talisman (aka taliban)
I did not know they gave the guests at Gitmo computer acccess!

Marco
Thank you for your service Marine!

Semper Fi

PS -I can't wait to read your book.

Comments from others
Yes Madison was one of our founders and a damm good one, but I guess the presidency went to his head. I stand by my comments about the founding fathers - they had a huge mistrust about giving too much power to the executive branch and wanted a strong Congress to counter balance that. They were especially afraid of the European type wars that dragged on for generations. The wars we did get into were not ones we wanted. As for the Democrats being conservative in WWII that could not be further from the truth - FDR was considered a traitor to his class and was villified by the wealthy class. The Republican Party in those days was pretty much conservative except for Wilkie and Eisenhower later on. The major difference prior to WWII was that conservatives did not want us in foreign wars whereas FDR was aligned with Britain and more of an internationalist. Conservatives were fond of Hitler and did not like the British by the way. Of course that all changed after December 7.

let's see just who is with our troops ..
and who is not:

I am currently working on a project that would show our military personnel just how much our country does appreciate their sacrifice. I haven't worked out all the details yet and any help I can get from you GOOD folks out there would be greatly appreciated. I'm looking for anyone with contacts with the military to work out how to deliver a product directly to our troops. I'm going to contact MoveAmericaForward.com with my proposal, too. In a nutshell, I'm trying to ensure our troops get a free vacation when they are on leave. If you want to know more, email me at fenrir98@sc.rr.com.

QParker writes:
LIBERALS DO LOATH THE MILITARY!
Any doubts, look at how vets and retirees are treated on college campuses or how the U.S. military has been portrayed in every movie made since 1970. Socialism cannot abide self reliant, disciplined individuals. The socialist element that controls many facets of American life is committed to driving military people and military values into a pariah subculture.

Ill like to add a few more to the list if it hasn’t already been done by now.

San Francisco (bastion of liberalism)

1 Declares itself a military free zone
2 By a margin of 60 percent to 40 percent, San Francisco's voters told military recruiters to stay out of the city's high schools. See website http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/ 000/006/381ngctp.asp
3 Shuns USS Iowa
see link http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8C3PH0G0&show_art icle=1

to name just a few examples. So liberals please do not try convince this elderly veteran that you are patriotic.



DIVERDOWN
"to name just a few examples. So liberals please do not try convince this elderly veteran that you are patriotic. "

Is this where I list the way conservatives abuse the troops? Right no I am working on a piece that the Navy discharged a sailor with cancer declaring him fit for duty. The next month he had an 88% disability. Fair? you tell me. Conservatives are screwing the troops like never before

Did Rudy lie?

What conservatives really love .....
about the military is all the pomp and pagentry. They love seeing the men march about in their spiffy uniforms going ooo-rah in unison preparing to fight them over there so we don't fight them over here. They love the parades, Veterans Day (lip service), Memorial day (more lip service complete with obligitary weeping), West Point, Annapolis and all the other trappings the military offers.

Of course all bets are off when reality sets in. The conservatives don't like anything messy like body bags, wounded soldiers, soldiers minus their arms or legs and soldiers who now have severe mental problems from seeing their buddies blown to smithereens by the enemy.

Yup conservatives talk the talk, but they won't walk the walk. They'll just stay at home where it's safe!!!

townhall posters
I saw several responses to my 9:25am post. Not one of them intelligently addressed the issues I raised. All I get is name-calling and snide remarks. Not one of them is even worth responding to.

Why is it so impossible to engage Republicans in serious debate?

Phylo out.

NoSbArtist(?) & Banks
NBS BULL S>>>!!!!!!! Same to you banks! You guys say that conservatives support and love the millitary because it lets them let someone else do their dirty work? You two are so brainless you've got a vaccume in your skull. I can also tell you either didn't serve or you got out on bad paper. I respect and revere ALL vets and current soldiers as we have one thing very much in common that you would never understand and thats a love for our country strong enough to risk laying down our lives for it. How the Heck do you type and breath at the same time?

Hal Donahue writes:
Fair? you tell me. Conservatives are screwing the troops like never before

Theres the word that libs just love to use "fair".

In their world nothing is fair. How can we ever win a war with the libs/dems in control of congress?

You tell me Hal


John Konop
If he lied so did Hellary. She said that her husband wanted to take out Saddam but didn't get the chance. From her mouth to this site. So did he lie?

The subject
is why do conservatives seem to support the military more than liberals? It does come off that way, it is liberals who mostly have insulted the military by calling them Nazis, Stalinist, who don't bel;ieve they are able to accomplish their mission, called them terrorist, and impugne their motives for joining, ban the ROTC from college campuses, in the past and now called them baby-killers, insulted their intelligence, the questrion should be why do that?

Stedes: good and evil are delusions, who says? who is the arbiter of good and evil? Can you assign a terrorist act as good or evil? do have that capacity? What about the acts of Hitler? Saddam Hussien? I've seen captured videos of beheadings, good or evil?

Phlyo It is not just insurgents, Iran is fueling much of this, have you asked what would happen if we just quit? Aside from the blood bath, does the prospect of an enlarged Iran seem to be a great thing?

I am a conservative, retired military, served in Iraq, my action