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Tuesday, April 14, 2009
Maggie Gallagher :: Townhall.com Columnist
Mainline Protestants' Dead End
by Maggie Gallagher
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Is America's long love affair with Christianity coming to an end?

Newsweek and other media decided the most appropriate way to mark the anniversary of Jesus' death was to trumpet the end of the influence in America of the religion he founded. Do they not recall how that story ends?

Yes, there is a kernel of truth in the headlines. Since 1990, according to American Religious Identification Survey 2008, Americans who say they have no religion jumped from 8 percent to 15 percent.

These people are not necessarily atheists or agnostics. A 2006 Baylor University study titled "American Piety in the 21st Century" found that the majority of people who say they have no religion also say they believe in God. A third of "nones" pray sometimes. One out of 10 people with no religion attend church at least once a month, and a similar proportion say they firmly believe Jesus is the son of God.

Nonetheless the growth in "nones" is a significant phenomenon. Northern New England has replaced the Pacific Northwest as the place with the highest proportion of "nones"; 34 percent of Vermonters, when asked about their religion, tell pollsters "none."

The big jump in "nones," however, is mostly old news. Almost all the increase occurred between 1990 and 2001. In that last seven years the number of Americans who say they have no religion barely inched up from 14.2 percent to 15 percent.

Similarly, in the last seven years there has been almost no visible decline in Christian identification: Between 1990 and 2001, the percentage of Christians in America dropped from 86 percent to 77 percent. In the most recent survey it edged down to 76 percent.

The latest news is thus mostly good news for Christians: The data show the sharp drops of the 1990s are ancient history. Far more significant (by far) in recent years than any shift away from Christianity have been the shifts within Christianity.

And here the press reports missed the one really big, obvious headline: Mainline Protestants are dying out.

The study's authors summarize:

"Ninety percent of the decline comes from the non-Catholic segment of the Christian population, largely from the mainline denominations, including Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians/Anglicans and the United Church of Christ. These groups, whose proportion of the American population shrank from 18.7 percent in 1990 to 17.2 percent in 2001, all experienced sharp numerical declines this decade and now constitute just 12.9 percent."

Overall Christianity has been holding its own in recent years. But since 2001, the liberal mainline Protestants have lost a third of their adherents.

"It looks like the two-party system of American Protestantism -- mainline versus evangelical -- is collapsing," said Mark Silk, director of the Public Values Program. "A generic form of evangelicalism is emerging as the normative form of non-Catholic Christianity in the United States."

The most amusing thing, if it weren't so sad, is to watch the pundits prophesy that abortion and gay marriage and evangelical boogeymen in general are turning off people from religion. When the reality is that the only Christian denominations declining in recent years are those which have surrendered core Christian teaching on sex, marriage and the dignity of every human life.

What we have all learned over the last two decades is this: A religion that caves in to pressure from sexual liberalism is a dead end. Surrender Christian teachings to appease the secular princes and Christianity dies. If faith leaders had any doubts about that strategy, we now know where it leads.

It's clear that one man, the new archbishop of New York, Timothy Dolan, understands this truth. On the eve of his assuming what The Associated Press video reporter called the role of "top Catholic in America," Dolan said his main job will be to inspire Catholics to stand for certain timeless truths: including the truth about abortion and marriage.

"Periodically, we Catholics have to stand up and say, 'Enough,'" he said. "The church as a whole still calls out to what is noble in us."

"Speak truth to power" is the call for our times.

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About The Author

Maggie Gallagher is a nationally syndicated columnist, a leading voice in the new marriage movement and co-author of The Case for Marriage: Why Married People Are Happier, Healthier, and Better Off Financially.

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Excellent point
"The most amusing thing, if it weren't so sad, is to watch the pundits prophesy that abortion and gay marriage and evangelical boogeymen in general are turning off people from religion. When the reality is that the only Christian denominations declining in recent years are those which have surrendered core Christian teaching on sex, marriage and the dignity of every human life.

What we have all learned over the last two decades is this: A religion that caves in to pressure from sexual liberalism is a dead end. Surrender Christian teachings to appease the secular princes and Christianity dies. If faith leaders had any doubts about that strategy, we now know where it leads."

As an atheist and someone who grew up in the Northeast, I can testify to the idea that only part of my rejection of Christianity was due to metaphysics, but the other portion was that the folks up in New England endorse a wishy-washy sense of right and wrong -- something I was not willing to tolerate or subscribe to. Thankfully the Vatican finally seems to be waking up and smelling the coffee, and the Evangelicals fortunately never surrendered their values.

Why Social Conservatives Should Join...
The Tea Parties!

http://www.parcbench.com/article_details.php?RId=127&topic= front

Values Voters, and Social Conservatives alike should should be amongst the most represented at the tea parties calling for smaller gov't, and lower taxes! Groups like Planned Parenthood, ACORN, and others are among some of the top recipients of our tax dollars.


This is
one Full Gospel Evangelical, former Episcopalian (low church) who is going tomorrow, along with my husband (fmr. member of a very conservative Lutheran Church)..we are now both non denominational.
The American Church (not the liberal apostate
mainliners) has allowed itself to be muzzled by the IRS out of fear of losing their tax exemption, thus there is no one willing to speak Truth to Power. I wonder where the Samuels, the Nathans, the Jeremiahs are today?

Nonsense
What is this woman talking about? What secular princes? The government? The government hasn’t had a say in church teachings in the country ever. The government doesn’t determine what religions teach their believers. The First Amendment prevents this.

Threats to Christianity come from within: Ted Haggard who rails against homosexuals, but frequents a male prostititute; Fred Phelps and his gay-hating church picketing veterans’ funerals; Jerry Falwell proclaiming that the 9/11 attacks were God’s way of punishing homosexuals. It’s Pat Robertson saying Pat Robertson's “The Antichrist is probably a Jew alive in Israel today.”It’s the Moral Majority claiming moral superiority. It’s obsessing about the politics of homosexuality and abortion. Or worse, fixated on “end times,” and The Rapture. Dreary.

Christianity has become angry and politicized in this country. Not to mention religiously inaccurate. All rhetoric, no action. It’s a huge turnoff. Can you blame people for not wanting to be a part of it?

Meacham the Episcopalian
Ms. Gallagher does not identify the author of the News-weak article, Jon Meacham. He seems to be a nice fellow, and a practicing Episcopalian, one of the few.

But those liberal, old line/sideline churches do not seem to believe in the category of Revelation, that the Holy Spirit spoke to the various human authors of the books of the Bible. That being the case, they think that all the teachings of the church are 'up for grabs,' can be determined by a 'show of hands.'
Catholics and other conservative Christians believe that the biblical teachings can develop, that is, become a more elaborated understanding of the original literal words; but liberal Christians, if that is not a contradiction in terms, believe that God's teachings can evolve into 180 degrees opposite of what the Bible teaches, e.g., abortion and homosexual activity. Libchristians are neither hot nor cold; they are lukewarm, and we know what the book of Revelation 3:16 said of the lukewarm: "they shall be spat out."

The religion of both the extreme Northeast and Northwest USA is environmentalism, which is pantheism, =idolatry. Better to hug Jesus than trees.

Stoic Patriot
The unitarian universalist has done exactly what you describe. They say gays are ok. They are trying to deflect the government from deporting illegals. They are more of a political group that a religeon.

correction
make that religion not religeon. SORRY

Jeffrey
"secular princes." yes, the government, specifically, the unelected, totalitarian judiciary. What part of that 2 word phrase can you not comprehend? "Secular" means worldly, and "princes" is a slightly sarcastic reference to government officials who kowtow to the irreligious 15%, to the displeasure of the religious 85%.

"Christianity has become angry and politicized in this country." For the sake of argument, to the extent that Christianity has become "angry," it is a righteous anger, in other words, an anger justified under the circumstances. It is a defensive anger, justifiable, like a just, defensive war, because you secularists have been attacking the religious foundations of this country since at least 1947, Everson v Board of Education, written by the KKK member Hugo Black. In reality, it is you secularists who are angry, as is obvious from your comment.

JMartin
I think you’re looking for a scapegoat and government for conservatives, serves that purpose. Too many people of faith, appear to forget that the First Amendment protects them and their religious beliefs; the government is neither for nor against religion. Judges only look guilty of something when it looks like they’re not purposefully advancing Christian ideals. But they’re not supposed to, Christians are. And by the way, a lot of states judges are elected, at least they are here in Michigan. They are more accountable to the people than you might think.

Whatever judges do, or don’t do, their “damage” to Christian objectives is minor compared to, say, the Catholic Church protecting pedophile priests (with approval from the Vatican to do so).

Jefrrey
I'm ashamed for you, that in your final sentence, you felt so feeble in your argument that you had to reach for the pedophile priest straw man argument, as if anyone were in favor of them. That is the current version of describing your opponent as hitlerian, a sure sign of a failed argument. Besides, that's awfully presumptuous of you, as if my comments indicated that i was a Catholic.

"Too many people of faith appear to forget that the First Amendment protects them and their religious beliefs; the government is neither for nor against religion." How naive of you. Yes, the words of the First Amendment protect religious people and their beliefs, but judges in the past 50 years have miscontrued the original meaning of the First. the government WAS not for or against religion; now it is resolutely against. That is because the pseudo-intelligentsia class, to which judges belong, are irreligious, so they knee-jerkedly think/feel that the public expression of religion is a bad thing. For the first 170 years of this Republic, the best way to describe the relationship between government and religion was 'positive neutrality.' Those were the better years of the country. Now the culture is a cesspool

JMartin
I think you’re taking this awfully personal. My point is to refocus attention away from the conservative’s usual bogeyman, “the government,” and refocus attention on the decline in religious behavior among the supposedly religious. Citing the Catholic Church’s utter misbehavior on this issue, for over 40 years, and with complicity of the Vatican, is the kind of thing the signals to would-be believers, “if this is what Christianity is all about, I’m not interested.” The faithful have an obligation to evangelize with their actions.

"Preach the Gospel at all times, and when necessary, use words." -- Francis of Assisi.

Jeffrey writes
The faithful have an obligation to evangelize with their actions.

Yes. We also have a Savior Who forgives us when we don't.

As there are always two sides to a coin I'd like to mention the words of Christ wrt those mockers minding everyone else's business: "if this is what Christianity is all about, I'm not interested". I believe the words used were along the lines of minding the log in your own eye before worrying about the speck in your brother's.

It is Christ Who is the cornerstone of Christianity and the object of our faith. "People" on the other hand, being fallible, WILL disappoint. They WILL let you down. "Stuff" happens-even among believers. It isn't all sweetness and light. Years ago my own DH was an elder in our former church, but not until after we left for another congregation did he tell me that one of the members was involved in incest against his own daughters. I don't know how that eventually turned out, but if you think that being a Christian means one all of a sudden turns into some sort of 'holy Joe' you do not understand the perniciousness of fallen human nature _or_ the comfort that is Christianity. I've always felt that if another's sin does not affect you personally, it then qualifies as being nunuvyerbizznezz. Sin is there, no matter the setting. St Paul despaired of his own sin-that 'body of death' he, like every one of us, are saddled with until we die.

The Church overall does a far better job disciplining its members than Congress does its own. Odd how so many would still rather put their faith in secular 'princes' than in the Prince of Peace.

Truth is Power
No man can deny forever truth. They shall bow at my knee, God.

It is hard to live a life that the truth keeps haunting one to seek truth. Man was told to be salt of the earth. Just tell the truth. It burns on sores till they heal.

The problem is their are few prophets to tell the truth anymore in season or out of season. If no one tells, how will they know? The truth goes way beyond the pages in the black book. Paul wrote how even creation pointed to God.

Our Forefathers wrote of how the Christian Principles were installed into the constitution with Creator and individual freedom, as God only has a right to you.

Not only the moral truth of sex and abortions. We have strayed from the morality truth of who owns Me? that gives me individual freedom.

Atheism correlated with moral behavior
Perhaps Jeffrey's point is that if religion has such a wonderful moral effect, why don't we see this correlation? The country's highest crime, divorce, and illegitimacy rates are in the Bible Belt. Atheists make up at least 8% of the U.S. population but only about two-tenths of 1% of the prison population. Three of the most atheistic countries in the world (Denmark, Norway, and Japan) are statistically among the very safest.

While its always risky to infer causation from correlation, the empirical facts don't appear to support theists' claims of moral or behavioral benefits to theistic belief.

Kathy
True believers will remain just that-truly believing no matter what a bunch of journalism majors tell us what to believe or not.

Tacitus
"wonderful moral effect"?

How about the abolition of slavery? The freedom (at least until recently) to make your living largely unfettered, to keep most of what you earned, and give to charity as you determined right and proper according to your own conscience? The 'live and let live' attitude of religious and personal liberty as outlined in both the Declaration and the Constitution? The church sponsored orphanages, hospitals, clinics, pregnancy help centers, unwed mothers' homes, homeless shelters, rescue missions and elder care centers? How many AA chapters are sponsored by local churches? Food banks? Day cares? Thrift stores? Who is usually the first to arrive at the scene of a disaster?

Yeah boy. I can't WAIT until the secular Government takes THAT burden off us Christians. Only then shall we see the lion lie with the lamb-just before he swallows him whole. Salvation Army, move over. We're from the Gov't and we'll take over from here. Yippee.

As for atheists' moral superiority, please. It is secular atheists who have killed more people in the last century than the Church ever did over its two thousand year history. And does a prisoner's being an atheist sanctify his crime, somehow? Wow.

Back later. I've got to get breakfast together and the family out the door.

Truth of the Matter
"A religion that caves in to pressure from sexual liberalism is a dead end. Surrender Christian teachings to appease the secular princes and Christianity dies."

Even some "Catholics" cave to the wishes of the secular princes. Witness the likes of Ted Kennedy, Joe Biden, John Kerry, Nancy Pelosi, etc.

Archbishop Dolan has it right and so does the Vatican as evidenced by its refusal to accept Caroline Kennedy as the US Ambassador.

Liar!
Maggie Gallagher is one of the most blatant liars working at the tax payers' expense today.

You're a phoney, Maggie!

You're a liar, Maggie!

AliveInHim, "wow" indeed
Thanks for the theist history lesson that it was atheists who owned slaves. LOL. The other virtues you mention (make your living largely unfettered, keep most of what you earned, give to charity as you determined right and proper according to your own conscience, individual rights, the Declaration, the Constitution) are based on Enlightenment principles, not Biblical. As for the status of individual rights in theocracies, look at the Spanish Inquisition and the Taliban.

It's simply a fact that the vast majority of child care facilitites, hospitals, clinics, etc., have no religious connection whatsoever. Anecdotal evidence that sometimes religious people do worthwhile things misses the point entirely.

As far as "secular atheists" being especially genocidal, you're simply wrong. The overwhelming majority of 20th century Germans and Russians were Christians. The first group Hitler persecuted upon taking power were atheist and freethinker groups, which he outlawed. Mein Kampf is replete with references to God. The Wehrmacht's belt buckles said "Gott mit uns" (god is with us), not "hooray for atheism."

"Sanctification" is your belief, not mine - so it's your burden to "sanctify" theists' crimes. Hope you have better luck with the kids' breakfast though!

The government has been...
silencing religion since LBJ decided that if any group that participated in electioneering would lose their tax free status.

It is my opinion that it is this restraint that is largely responsible for the muzzling of the Christian churches.

Religion and politics have gone hand in hand since the founding of our nation. The ministers of the day gave sermon after sermon and these helped to shape our great nation.

To many the churches of today appear to be irrevelant because they are no longer allowed to address topics American's are concerned with. Christians want to hear about God and His commandments and how He wants us to live but instead they receive a version of the truth void of the information they need. The lessons are neither hot nor cold and are unfulfilling to those who seek to hear the truth.
Political issues that are afraid to be discussed include abortion and same sex marriage. Most would agree that God definately has an opinion on these, but ministers are afraid to speak out because of the fear of losing their tax free status.
That is why the churches were largely silent when prayer was taken out of schools.


Fred Phelps
It's significant that Jeffrey names Phelps. He is the leader of a church with 150 members. There are 170 million self-identified Christians in America, and look at the ones who are most easily identified-- Fred Phelps and his merry musketeers. Given the numbers, he's literally one in a million. Yet everybody knows his name.

The most influential magazine among evangelical Christians is probably Christianity Today. I challenge anyone to read this magazine and find any hint of the type of hatred and politicization that the critics of evangelical Christianity claim for it. I challenge anyone to read any of the top ten evangelical or charismatic journals and find any bigotry and hate.


Mainline Protestantism
I'm a member of a mainline church for over fifty years, and very active in its leadership. The mainline churches have suffered massive losses in membership over that same period. During the same period, conservative and charismatic churches have grown and prospered, and continue to do so.

Within my church, we are engaged in a struggle against political and religious leftism. The individual churches with leftist leadership (the norm) have declined. The individual churches with moderate to conservative leadership are stable or grow.

We have not left our denomination because it is our intent to preserve the heart of the Christian message here and revitalize it after the last leftist has departed. We continue to have enough votes in conference to prevent approval of abortion, gay marriage, and other leftist shibboleths, and hope to turn back their wins. Increasingly, leftist leadership becomes less representational and more embattled. We've kept this up for fifty years. We're just getting started.

Traditional Values
This article gets to a very important point.

It's not that people are abandoning religion, if fact the opposite is true. What religious people are abandoning is the capitulation of their ministries to political correctness.

If their ministries abandon their values and principles, how can they not expect their followers to do the same.

But, their followers are not abandoning their values and principles, they are abandoning their ministries for others that promote the christian's values and principles. Hence, the rise in evangilical ministries.

I, for one, was raised in the Methodist church, but have not been to any church in decades. I found the institutional churches to be hypocrits and money oriented only. I know all are not that way but where are the ones that are not.

However, I have never abandoned my beliefs, values, or principles. I know the difference between right and wrong and I will always live that way.



DECLINE
WE HAVE LOST OUR FIRST LOVE.With the deluge of the so called modern version of the bible that have ommitted scripture after scripture,we find ourselves on a fast track to doom.Greedy publishers poured out all these versions and now people are scratching their head as to what went wrong.God did not say rewrite my WORD!
Rev22:19--Duet4:2--Gal1:6-9--Prov30:5-6--KJV

That's Good News
So long as Christians believe this baloney they will continue to stay in the political shadows. Politics corrupts religion. We re-learned the truth of that statement recently. The religious-right blindly followed Bush into the abyss because they believed he was a good Christian. In doing so they became as corrupted as it's political leader.

There is no future for a political/religion. The foundation of Christianity is completely contrary to any political system. No matter what they say, politicians are loyal only to themselves. History keeps repeating the lesson and a large majority of Americans got the message loud and clear.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"As far as 'secular atheists' being especially genocidal, you're simply wrong. The overwhelming majority of 20th century Germans and Russians were Christians."

Let's see, the Communists who ruled Soviet Russia were all "secular atheists". The Nazi that rules Nazi Germany were mostly "secular atheists", especially those who carried out Hitler's "Final Solution". Mao's Chinese Communists were all "secular atheists".

While the majority of the populations of Russia, Germany and China may have clinged to faiths, despite the forced atheism their rulers tried to instill through torture, coersion, and death, only an idiot would believe that the leadership of these genocidal regimes practiced any religion except atheism. Those are the historical facts. As for the Spanish Inquisition, its documented body count was less that 4,000 over more than 300 years. Compare that with Mao's 50 million+ in less than 10 years or Russia's 25 million+ in less than 20 years.

Re: Civics 101
"The foundation of Christianity is completely contrary to any political system."

Obviously you never read Alexis de Tocqueville's "Democracy in America"!

Re: Civics 101
President George Washington, on religion and politics:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

"It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?" - Washington's Farewell Address 1796

Re: Delusional Demographics
"Three of the most atheistic countries in the world (Denmark, Norway, and Japan) are statistically among the very safest."

Only if you consider suicide as being safe!

John Acton
Adolf Hitler (do some research since you're apparently unaware of his role in the Third Reich) held strong faith in Christianity. He invariably based his fight for the German people and against Jews by using godly and Biblical reasoning. A typical quote: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

If you think those are the words of an atheist, you don't know the meaning of the word. His anti-semitism flowed quite naturally from the rabid anti-Jewish screeds of Martin Luther (no atheist - try reading a book).

By decree, in 1933 Hitler united the Protestant churches for the explicit purpose of instilling faith in a national German Christianity. Re Catholicism, do some research on the "The Reich Concordat" between Hitler and the Vatican and its aftermath.

In stark contrast, one of Hitler's first acts upon taking power was to ban atheist and freethought organizations. Face it Johnny, history shows theists are at least as quick to murder as atheists. Ever heard of the Taliban?

Re: Delusional Demographics
"The country's highest crime, divorce, and illegitimacy rates are in the Bible Belt."

The divorce, and illegitimacy rates are:

Norway - 40% and 54%
Sweden - 55% and 49%
Denmark - 46% and 46%

As for crime rates, since when is New York City, East LA, and Washington, DC part of the bible belt?

Tacitus 0
"Adolf Hitler (do some research since you're apparently unaware of his role in the Third Reich) held strong faith in Christianity." Adolf Hitler hated Christianity and denounced it in private. If you believe his campaign statements, you probably voted for Obama. No legitimate historian believes he was Christian. It's a troll thing.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"Adolf Hitler (do some research since you're apparently unaware of his role in the Third Reich) held strong faith in Christianity. He invariably based his fight for the German people and against Jews by using godly and Biblical reasoning."

Perhaps you should do some research. Hitler's entire "Master Race" fantasy was based on the atheistic Darwinian pseudo-science of eugenics. As Jesus, the Christ, was Himself a Jew, you would have a very hard case to make that Nazism was somehow tied to worshipping a Jew.

Reading this thread
It seems that the responders that are betting against Christians and Christianity are folks who must not know and Evangelical Christians personally and whose knowledge about them comes from media stereotypes.

I have had a very liberal Unitarian friend for 4 years who was like that. At first he did not trust me at all and was very antagonistic. I had to try not to laugh at the questions he asked me about my faith because they came from such a cartoonish stereotype of Evangelicals. He is still a liberal Unitarian, but his friendship with me over time has convinced him that Evangelicals are not to be feared, and he even stick up for me once in a while.

Get to know an Evangelical before you accept the closed-minded boogyman stereotypes--they don't bite.

Robert and John Acton dictionary
"Legitimate historian" to you apparently means any holy roller that bolsters your misconceptions. Then you bring up Obama(?) Ever heard of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy? Learn some elementary logic, it will help you avoid embarrassing "arguments."

No doubt you must believe that Martin Luther was always very complimentary to the Jews, who were never persecuted by any Christians "because Jesus was a Jew." Yeah, what a "very hard case." And I guess you believe the 99.8% of federal prisoners who are theists should all be released because all the crimes "must have been" committed by the .2% that are atheist. LOL.

Your assumption that Darwin was a eugenicist is (again) false. He vigorously opposed Galton. There is no evidence Hitler ever read Darwin, though he was quite familiar with the Bible. FYI, the eugenics movement in the U.S. was led by the Reverend Washington Gladden, a leader in the "Social Gospel" movement, and funded by Carnegie, yeah, the fellow with the dedicated stained glass window in the National Cathedral.

Tacitus
Your last post made no sense whatsoever. Take a few deep breaths and try again.

Tacitus
Changing the subject doesn't do you any good. You find a legitimate historian who thinks that Hitler was a dedicated Christian and your idea has some merit. Otherwise, it has none, since every single historian I have ever studied says he wasn't. You're entitled to your own opinion, you're not entitled to your own facts.

Robert
Have someone with a lot of patience explain it to you.

Raised as christian
I was raised as a christian abd believed everything I was told about jesus. But then I also believed what I was told about Santa. I began thinking about, reading and studing for myself what the bible says and what I was taught. Now I am a Born Again Athiest. If you want people to believe in christianity, teach them when they are very young not to ask questions and believe what you teach them to believe, because you said to believe it. And if they question you they will burn in hell for eternity.

P.S. Hitler was a christian.

Raised as christian
I was raised as a christian abd believed everything I was told about jesus. But then I also believed what I was told about Santa. I began thinking about, reading and studing for myself what the bible says and what I was taught. Now I am a Born Again Athiest. If you want people to believe in christianity, teach them when they are very young not to ask questions and believe what you teach them to believe, because you said to believe it. And if they question you they will burn in hell for eternity.

P.S. Hitler was a christian.

Robert, try these
You mean changing the subject like your bringing up Obama? Since Mein Kampf is filled with Christian references, the burden is clearly on your unnamed gurus and you to come up with a greater number of atheistic declarations from Hitler with equal authenticity. It's called "evidence." Blowhard assertions don't qualify.

Here's one for your scrapbook: "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice...For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." -Adolf Hitler, 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942). Some atheist.


Put the crayons down, Mike
"I am a Born Again Athiest."

Good for you, Mike. Everyone should find their own path. You're attack on a cartoon caricature of Christianity only shows your ignorance of it. Christianity is not something that people can try out for a couple years and say they get it. They can say they don't get it. Christianity is a life long journey, just like many mature theological and philosophical world views are. You will find mature Christians and immature Christians, just like you will find mature Atheists and immature Atheists.

"P.S. Hitler was a christian."

The key word to emphasis is 'was.' Hitler was raised a Christian, but in his older years he no longer subscribed to the Christian beliefs. Just like you were a Christian and are no longer one. It's important to note, in the atheist world view Hilter gets off easy.

Deeds are not the same as words
Tacitus X, you take words from a political speech as proof that Hilter was a praticing Christian. Comical at best. Even his words betray him as a non-christian let alone his actions.

Hitler on Christianity
"I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews."

This is only one of many of Hitler's private statements on Christianity. If you'd like to google Hitler on peace, you will find that his public speeches also proclaimed his dedication to peace, freedom, justice and other nice things. Allan Bullock and Paul Johnson are among the multitude of historians who proved Hitler was a neo-pagan who hated Christianity.

I also found a few websites promoting the idea that Hitler was a Christian. None of them used anything except his public speeches, which were completely dishonest-- unless of course you also believe he was for peace, freedom, and justice.

And if you think he hated Christianity, you should read what he said about capitalism!

Mike
I and I'm sure others will pray for you and your soul. It is definitely your loss. Lest you doubt me, I genuinely care.

Protestant Churches
If someone is a Christian, then there are certain things that seem to be required. Most Christians look to the Bible for guidance. John Wesley had four guides: The Bible, tradition, experience (religious or mystical experience-I believe that is what he meant by experience) and reason.
When ministers depart from Biblical teaching then they become suspect of not believing what they preach. This may be part of the reason for the fall off. As for as the Catholics are concerned, it is not the misdeeds of the few priests that is the real problem-bad as that is-it is the way their superiors didn't deal with it. As to the Episcopalians, having an openly gay Bishop has caused many previously very active Episcopalians to leave the church. As for the Methodists, the clergy are much more liberal than I am on social issues, and the higher one goes in the hierarchy the worse it gets.
Some people do not think that actions do not have consequences, but then many do not think that prices and taxes effect behavior-but they do.
Donald W. Bales

Donald
As you say, "As for the Methodists, the clergy are much more liberal than I am on social issues, and the higher one goes in the hierarchy the worse it gets." In the Methodist Church, there is a large group of clergy and lay people in the Good News movement and Confessing Movement who are faithful to the tradition, scripture, reason and experience model for faith and not leftist on political or spiritual matters. They are the ones who are keeping the faith and growing in the UMC.

In our family
four of us have left the Episcopal/Anglican church in the past two years. My brother has joined the Orthodox Church; my sister attends the Vineyard (foursquare) Church; my niece is a Lutheran and I have become a Catholic. My brother and I got tired of being hammered with anti-American rants and glorification of homosexuality in place of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The church my sister and niece (her daughter) attended was closed when the congregation elected not to jump in the handbasket and push the Down Button. (Said neices husband attends the Orthodox church; the children attend the Lutheran church with her.)

My next sister stopped attending church because (she says) she is a sinner; she and her beau live together without marriage due to Social Security regulations, although he is ready to marry her at any time. And my youngest sister exploded in anger when members of her evanglical church greeted her struggle with a drunken, abusive husband and looming bankruptcy, foreclosure, lack of basic amenities and worse, with the very stupid observation that God never gives you a cross you cannot bear, and then left her to fend for herself; she left that church and has never returned to any church. But it is not God she left.

There are a lot of people out there who may say *none* and yet did not leave the church; the church, they feel, has left them.

Re: Hysterical Historians
Actually, the US eugenics movement was lead by Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood and Hitler worshipper. There is nothing in Christian credo that could possibly support the murder of innocent Jews. Many of the Poles slaughtered by the SS were Christians, as were the Ukrainians. The group of Germans who opposed Hitler were made up almost entirely of Christians.

As for Charles Darwin's forray into eugenics, you obviously haven't read his "Descent of Man" wherein he applies the principles of natural selection to human beings.

As Hitler made clear in Mein Kampf, the fundamental political category is biological. Consequently, “the highest aim of human existence is not the maintenance of a State or Government but rather the conservation of the race.” This aim accords with Hitler’s larger Darwinian view of the cosmos, wherein the “fundamental law of necessity” reigning “throughout the realm of Nature” is that “existence is subject to the law of eternal struggle and strife….where the strong are always the masters of the weak and where those subject to such laws must obey them or be destroyed.” Survival of the fittest.

Now let's hear from "God is Dead" Nietzsche, Hitler's favorite philosopher, whose words sound so like Darwin's, albeit with a sharper rhetorical edge.

"Let us admit to ourselves...how every higher culture on earth so far has begun. Human beings whose nature was still natural, barbarians in every terrible sense of the word, men of prey who were still in possession of unbroken strength of will and lust for power, hurled themselves upon weaker, more civilized, more peaceful races..."

The result was Mein Kampf and the "Final Solution".

Re: Bent perspectus
"No doubt you must believe that Martin Luther was always very complimentary to the Jews, who were never persecuted by any Christians 'because Jesus was a Jew.' Yeah, what a 'very hard case.' And I guess you believe the 99.8% of federal prisoners who are theists should all be released because all the crimes 'must have been' committed by the .2% that are atheist. LOL."

I don't recall Luther slaughtering 6 million Jews as the Nietzsche following Hitler did. As for the prisoners finding God, most did that after they committed their crimes and were already in prison.

Protestantism = Confusion= Fragmentation
The problem with protestantism in general is the extreme individualism it espouses and the false belief in 'sola scriptura,' which dictates that everyone who reads the bible will somehow be inspired by the H Spirit to find ultimate truth in its words by his/her own interpretation. In fact few prots can agree on the meaning of a single verse, let alone the entire book!

The very idea of 'biblical perspicuity' is ridiculous and proven wrong in that there are as many interpretations as there are readers, and as many sects as there are those whose ability to preach and charisma convinces others that 'their interpretation' is the ONLY correct one. To wit the success of 'megachurches' which are personality driven, rather than worship driven.

Protestants are seldom doctrine oriented. Most shop around for a church that accommodates their personal beliefs and biases, a place that will make them 'feel comfortable.' When that 'church' ceases to be convenient they simply jump to another, hence convenience trumps nominatinal loyalty.

Is it any wonder that faith is being whittled away, fragmented and ultimately lost?
What would happen if every citizen were allowed to live by his own interpretation of Constitutional law?

Thanks
Thank you Maria T. I could not agree more, nor said it better.

It's really the Catholics
that are in trouble:

If certain American trends continue -- namely:

A steady loss of heterosexual priests who leave the priesthood to get married.

A gradual reduction of the priesthood through retirement and death. (By the end of the year 2000, "The average age of diocesan priests in active ministry in the United States is 59. For religious priests, it is 63.")

Another source gives the ages as 57 and 63 as of early 2003. By the end of 2005, the latest numbers might be one or two years greater.

The massive drop in the number of seminary students (From 39,638 in 1966 to 4,826 in 1999.) One source says there are fewer than 4,000 in the year 2002.

The apparent increase in the percentage of seminary students with a homosexual orientation.

Then, as Father McBrien said: "the Catholic Church will run out of priests, [and] will certainly run out of heterosexual priests."

Maria T - Sorry you're confused
1. Nice straw-man definition of sola scriptura. We don’t believe we are free to interpret the Bible any way we wish. We believe everyone has the responsibility to determine God’s intent. To borrow your Constitutional law example, every authoritative pronouncement by the Supreme Court on what the Constitution means doesn’t make it so. The same goes with the authoritative pronouncements by the Bishop of Rome on scripture.
2. Within conservative evangelical churches today, there are different levels of agreement.
a. For core issues, there is near universal agreement. Most disagreements are over definitions and the correct way to communicate meaning.
b. There are non-core issues that are less clear in the scripture that some people feel strongly about, and there tend to be divisions along those lines.
c. There are non-essential items that can be a matter of conscience for some, and they can group themselves according to their preferences, and I don’t see a problem with that.
d. There are plenty of churches that are way-out doctrinally. All I can say is Satan likes to counterfeit; there aren’t a whole lot of imitation Catholic churches because he already owns the real thing.

Maria T - Sorry you're confused (pt 2)
3. “It is not difficult to define perspicuity even though…the term is not very perspicuous anymore.:” http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj15i.pdf It’s not ridiculous or proven wrong, and I’m not sure why you connected it with megachurches.
4. RE: “Protestants are seldom doctrine oriented.” And Catholics are? You have already butchered biblical perspicuity and sola scriptura. Perhaps you’d like to explain a Catholic doctrine, such as the immaculate conception. (My guess is, without looking it up four of five Catholics would give a definition that is clearly wrong.) Our culture has devalued scholarship, and it has impacted the church in our country. There is plenty of unsound scholarship on doctrinal issues. But the Catholic church stopped insisting every sermon be in Latin during my lifetime and has always been suspicious of the people knowing God’s word.
5. RE: “Is it any wonder that faith is being whittled away, fragmented and ultimately lost?” It’s not being lost. It’s where it has always been - on the narrow road (that doesn’t go through Rome.)

Hitler was a Christian????
If Hitler was a strong Christian, I'm a little confused as to why he removed the Bibles from churches and replaced them with Mein Kampf and jailed pastors who resisted. And, then there's the imprisonment and execution of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Corrie ten Boom lost her entire family in a concentration camp. I could go on, but ... I'm not sure Christians at the time recognized Hitler as a Christian. I think der Fueror used rhetoric to his advantage, but rhetoric is not what makes one a Christian. A relationship with Jesus Christ is what makes one a Christian and one of the primary evidences of that would be love for your fellow Christians. I don't think that was the experience of most European Christians at the time.

Mike
Odd, but I had exactly the opposite experience. I was raised in a secular home. My dad came from an evangelical background, but had had a falling out with his church as a teenager and refused to be a member of another one, ever. He believed in providing us with all sorts of information and letting us ask lots of questions and then he'd not provide us with the answers, but expect us to answer them ourselves.

My mom was an agnostic who didn't have much thought for God.

From that atmosphere of open inquiry, I encountered a book by Francis Shaeffer, "Escape from Reason", that opened my eyes to the rational basis for faith. Over the next year and a half, I questioned and studied -- this time with my mind open rather than full of skepticism. And, you know what I found at the end?

Yeah, Jesus Christ as my personal Savior.

You R confused about my confusion gil4
** Nice straw-man definition of sola scriptura. We don’t believe we are free to interpret the Bible any way we wish.**

-- Nowhere did I say prots are free to interpret the bible any way you wish but that is rather the logical consequence of adhering to the theory of 'sola scriptura.' Further, I stated that the fragmentation of protestantism into conservative, liberal, fundamentalist, evangelical, reformed strains, and from there into thousands of sects, is the end result of holding to that same theory of 'sola scriptura' which claims the bible is the ultimate authority in questions of faith an morals, yet it has no authoritative interpreter.

That being the case there is no escape, the conclusion is that ANY interpretation has the possibility to be considered 'valid' for without a definite authority, who then determines whose interpretation is more or less valid than anyone else's? You simply cannot, and that is a fact.

Still confused gil4
**To borrow your Constitutional law example, every authoritative pronouncement by the Supreme Court on what the Constitution means doesn’t make it so. The same goes with the authoritative pronouncements by the Bishop of Rome on scripture**

Your attempt to compare Constitutional Interpretation of the law to the pronouncements of the Bishop of Rome presents a false dichotomy. Supreme Court members may be strict constructionists or liberals nominated for political expediency, hence their interpretation of the law depends on their particular biases as well as on the prevailing political winds. Further, once a law is defined or decided it is not written in stone. Laws can be challenged and/or discarded, however, this doesn't happen through the agency, opinion or view of an individual, but as product of an arduous process that requires the legal expertise of trained lawyers.

Not so in the case of doctrine or dogma. Once subjected to study and defined by consensus of theologians they are pronounced by the Pope and become an irrevocable matter of faith every Catholic is bound to believe. An yes, beliefs existing some 2000 years ago have not changed, they are still found at this very moment - including the one about the Immaculate Conception- but I'm certain I will see you debate that since you will argue it was not declared dogma until the last century.

Further, your assertion that everyone has the responsibility to determine God's intent suffers the same fatal flaw as 'private bible interpretation' Without an authoritative spokesman WHO can ultimately dictate whose determination is the correct one?

Re: Wishful thinking
"It's really the Catholics that are in trouble:"

As were Nero's before you, your predictions of the demise of the Catholic Church terribly inaccurate.

Re: Theology for Biblically Challenged
"Nice straw-man definition of sola scriptura."

Can you point to the Book, Chapter, and Verse where the dogma of "Sola Scriptura" is mandated?

One must wonder how the earliest Christians were able to apply this dogma, as the most of the New Testament was not written until the later 1st and early 2nd Centuries.

Also, seeing how most of the earliest Christian, including most of the Apostles and Disciplines were unable to read, how they could possibly understand "the Word of God" without haing it read and interpreted for them by those "shepherds" who had been appointed and anointed by St. Peter and the Apostles?

Please note how the much of the New Testament is composed of "Epistles" - letters from the Apostles and Disciples to the various churches that composed the early Catholic Church. These letters provided instructions and interpretation of the "Word of God" for those selected to spread the "Good News".

Even the Scriptura of James instructs that both Faith and Works are at least as important as the "Word" when it comes to salvation.

Re: Wishful thinking
BTW, quoting a plaigiarist like Fr. Richard McBrien gives your post about as much creditability as the film "The DaVinci Code", for which McBrien was a paid consultant.

Re: Wishful thinking
"Citing the Catholic Church’s utter misbehavior on this issue, for over 40 years, and with complicity of the Vatican, is the kind of thing the signals to would-be believers, 'if this is what Christianity is all about, I’m not interested'."

The only mistake that American Catholic Church made 40 years ago was to begin to accept homosexuals to the priesthood. Of course, this corruption lead to abuse that can only follow when sin and pathology are ignored in order to be fashionable.

To believe that someone who is both mentally ill and moral weak so as to practice the "abominable and detestable" could possibly maintain their vow of chasity was the real fault of the Church and today they are paying the price of that foolishness. Of course, there are some folks who would punish the Boy Scouts because they refuse to make the same mistake that Church did.

BTW, the vast majority of cases involving priests were not pedophila, as they involved children over 14 years of age.

John Acton
It's hard to think that the church starting accepting homosexuals as priests only 40 years ago. Given the prohibition against marriage and sexual expression for priests, it makes sense that the priesthood for hundreds of years would be a great place for the conflicted homosexual to hide.

That the Vatican's 1962 order to US Bishops to hide the priest/pedophilia (or sex with a minor) problem occurred demonstrates the a huge deficiency of the Catholic Church. Can you imagine any other organization still existing after such a huge sexual scandal, and trying to hide it?

Excuse me, if the Catholic church runs out of priests, exactly how is it going to survive? Do you have different figures for enrollment at US seminaries? Trust me, the Church is suddenly going to find biblical reason to permit priests to marry, and to ordain women. Just a matter of practicality.

Pssst, Jeffrey....
**Excuse me, if the Catholic church runs out of priests, exactly how is it going to survive? Do you have different figures for enrollment at US seminaries? Trust me, the Church is suddenly going to find biblical reason to permit priests to marry, and to ordain women. Just a matter of practicality.**

Uh, Jeffrey, I think you have us confused with protestants, and somewhat with mormons who are used to receiving convenient 'revelations.'
The statistics you trotted out on a previous post are a shining example of wishful thinking by people who would love to dance over the ashes of a Church that has not only outlasted tyrants and slash and burn oppressors, but has even managed to assist in their downfall. So try not to hold your breath.
Seminaries and convents who follow Catholic Orthodoxy are running out of room as far as applicants. Check those out.

There is also a thriving diaconate program for married men who are able to substitute priests in the performance of certain functions and Sacraments. And, surprise, surprise, there are several rites within the Church that have operated with married clergy for centuries, as well as men already married who are abandoning liberal denominations (Anglican and Episcopalian),and are accepted as priests in the CC.
So save your funeral dirges for prots who will eventually fragment themselves into nonexistence. The CC will continue chastised, but purified from unnecessary dross. Go ahead and bet the farm.

To tie loose ends on gil4's thoughts
**2. Within conservative evangelical churches today, there are different levels of agreement**

Different levels of agreement??? How refreshing to know, For people adamant about the fact that you follow the words of the bible and not the commands of theologians or (perish the thought!) Popes, your statement above falls right in line with Jesus' words: "Father I pray that they may be one, as you and I are one" you think?

a. For core issues, there is near universal agreement. Most disagreements are over definitions and the correct way to communicate meaning.

Core issues as in what? Belief in the Trinity? Necessity of baptism? Even among Baptist denominations there is disagreement and argument on the point. Acceptance of the bible as the ultimate authority?
Methodists follow a quadruple pronged 'authority' which includes tradition, and experience (what does that mean since no one's personal experience is equal to anyone else's?) I could go on and on but to abbreviate, what exactly do mainline, conservative Lutherans agree on with Presbyterians or Baptists, or Episcopalians or Methodists, we'd be interested to hear.

To tie loose ends #2
**b. There are non-core issues that are less clear in the scripture that some people feel strongly about, and there tend to be divisions along those lines**

Core issues that are 'less clear in scripture'? But I thought your argument about the 'clarity' or perspicuity of the words in the Bible was unquestionable. On that subject take a look at the following page on the web and then let us hear where you come out on the argument.
http://talkingdonkey.wordpress.com/2008/07/07/theses-on-th e-perspicuity-of-the-scriptures-in-conversation-with-stanle y-fish/

**c. There are non-essential items that can be a matter of conscience for some, and they can group themselves according to their preferences, and I don’t see a problem with that**

Pheeew, this sounds exactly like 'relativism' to me. People grouping themselves according to their preference?? Where exactly in the Bible do we see Jesus, or Paul, to whom prots go for the meat of their theology, preaching, counseling or teaching this? We already saw Jesus praying to His Father for UNITY, doesn't Paul also talk about people not getting into divisions by saying 'I belong to Apollos, or to Paul'? Clearly the intent of the Church Jesus founded from the beginning was to be ONE according to His commands; 'one faith, one hope, one baptism, and one Father of us ALL.'
You don't see a problem with 'grouping' or divisions? Unless your voice and words carry the ultimate weight in the evangelical world I'd say yours is just AN OPINION among whatever number of millions those who call themselves protestants is, and aren't opinions a dime a dozen?

To tie loose ends #3
**d. There are plenty of churches that are way-out doctrinally. All I can say is Satan likes to counterfeit; there aren’t a whole lot of imitation Catholic churches because he already owns the real thing.**

Absolutely, this proves my point on 'extreme protestant individualism' right. When beliefs are up for grabs then all you need is someone articulate or charismatic enough who can sell his 'opinions' to a number of people who find them comfortable, and you got a new sect. This is in fact the hallmark of protestantism and you've described it correctly as a satanic counterfeit. Satan is described in the bible as the father of lies and DIVISION, and this is why for 2000 years he has attacked the UNITY existing in the Catholic Church.

Every one has opinion
You can ask 100 people what a scripture in the bible means and get 100 different answers. Personally I think it is all B.S. and we should not give it any more credit than we do a book about Zues.

Re: Wishful thinking
"It's hard to think that the church starting accepting homosexuals as priests only 40 years ago. Given the prohibition against marriage and sexual expression for priests, it makes sense that the priesthood for hundreds of years would be a great place for the conflicted homosexual to hide."

It might be hard but those are the facts. Until 1973 the Church screened for and rejected those who suffered from the homosexual pathology.

"That the Vatican's 1962 order to US Bishops to hide the priest/pedophilia (or sex with a minor) problem occurred demonstrates the a huge deficiency of the Catholic Church."

Which particular order is that? Perhaps a reference or site might be nice.

"Can you imagine any other organization still existing after such a huge sexual scandal, and trying to hide it?"

Considering that the sexual scandals in the public school system dwarf those of the Catholic Church it is not too hard to imagine. BTW, percentage of abusers among Catholic priests is no higher than among Protestant ministers.

Let's Return to Hitler and Stalin
I think the sexual revolution and secularization are the cause for the priests sexual abuse (the two best known were gay feminist priests) and sexual abuse and violence going on in the U.S. The anti-religious nation states were the worst genocidal butchers in history - Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Ceucescu, Pol Pot, etc! The media and academia, which are atheistic, have caused the mess here... I guess we have learned nothing from the 20th century...

Jeffrey
"Then, as Father McBrien said: "the Catholic Church will run out of priests, [and] will certainly run out of heterosexual priests."


McBrien is a heretic. I've read his work and it's filled with exactly the kind of liberal claptrap that is causing the losses described in the article.

MsTee
You are a strong advocate for our faith.

An earlier commenter lamented the loss of scripture verses. Martin Luther removed five books.

Another commenter said his pastor revealed personal, pastoral conversation to him. Everybody "knows" the confessional is absolutely private.

Unfortunately, all of this mess has it's origins in lukewarm Catholicism.

Maggie
I can speak only from my own personal experience, but virtually every Christian I have
known who later gave up the church did so because of what I would call Fundamentalists
stances. They do not believe in the Creation
Story, they do not believe in the status of
women as suggested by the Bible, they do not
believe in hell as an eternal place of punishment.

It is unfortunate that others, unlike myself,
have been able to work around those problems
and still maintain a religious life. They are
missing so much.
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