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Thursday, June 05, 2008
Maggie Gallagher :: Townhall.com Columnist
Parents' Rights Trump Polygamy
by Maggie Gallagher
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I never thought you'd hear me say this, but: Thank God for the ACLU, which defended the Texas polygamist mothers.

A Texas district court judge, Barbara Walther, ordered that the more than 400 kids swept away by the state government be returned to their parents' care immediately. (Then she signed an emergency order keeping back one teenage girl who the state claimed was being sexually abused.)

Walther's order requires the parents to stay in Texas, and to allow the children to be examined for signs of abuse. They are also required to attend parenting classes.

The sect meanwhile made a public promise: "In the future, the church commits that it will not preside over any marriage of any woman under the age of legal consent," said Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints spokesman Willie Jessop.

The Texas polygamy case prompted a wide variety of public reactions. As someone who is about as opposed to polygamy as it is possible to be, my first reaction was: How can the government take small children away from their mothers?

The right of a mother to the care and custody of her children (and vice versa) can (or should) be abrogated only when it is necessary to protect the child from some kind of immediate danger.

If the government had swept all the 13-year-old girls into custody, the action would at least have had some relationship to an imminent danger -- that they would be sexually abused by older men under the guise of "spiritual marriage." But no one ever claimed the 4-year-olds were in imminent danger of anything. What right did the government have to take away these kids?

My second, contradictory reaction was: Why do we care so little about sexualizing girls who are not on polygamous ranches? Texas officials justified their actions by releasing creepy photos showing older men on the ranch with early teen girls, and by demonstrating that a large proportion of the teenage girls had been pregnant.

But more than half of 15- to 19-year-old Hispanic girls in this country have been pregnant. Is anyone upset enough about that fact to move decisively to protect them from early sexualization? For those girls the answer is: Ship them more condoms and have more teachers demonstrate to them how to be sexualized at lower government cost (because babies cost real money).

If the FLDS sect down there in Texas specialized in sexually connecting 16-year-old boys to 16-year-old girls (or, for that matter, boys), there would be nothing in Texas law, or the rest of the American culture, that would give anyone pause. They would fit right in.

That's what made this Texas case so confusing to me and to others. Yes, we have polygamists in this country, and we don't want to encourage polygamy in this country. Plus, polygamy is so fundamentally unattractive to women it is very hard to sustain without isolating young girls (and forbidding them access to divorce). So crackdown on those bad guys!

But we also don't want to encourage the government to think it gets to decide, based on almost no evidence at all, when parents are allowed to care for our own children.

Meanwhile, we have a culture so sexually debased that if these weird, pseudo-Mormon heretics hadn't called it polygamy -- and had also waited until the girls turned 16 to hook them up -- nobody might've even noticed.

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About The Author

Maggie Gallagher is a nationally syndicated columnist, a leading voice in the new marriage movement and co-author of The Case for Marriage: Why Married People Are Happier, Healthier, and Better Off Financially.

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so close
After the first page I thought this was going to be the first Gallagher column that I agreed with down the line. But does Gallagher really not see the difference between 16 year olds dating each other, and 16 year old girls being paired with 50 year old men? Does she really not understand why the government would get involved when a group pairs up its under 16 year olds, but not women older than 16? Is it really that hard to make relevant distinctions?

Free at last...
Thank God our Constitution is still in tact in America. The law is the law and every American has their rights under the law. This was false imprisonment.

Thank you Maggie and Mike for bringing this case to light and getting the true facts out there. What happened in Texas was wrong on so many levels. I hope the children don't suffer permanent scars for being separated from their parents.

For those who don't understand. There is a 16 year old in my neighborhood who had a baby at 14 and one at 15. The father of the children was 21/22 when she got pregnant. Would it be right for CPS to round up every child in the neighborhood and claim that since one person was under age, that all children are suspect. How would this scenario be any different than what happened to the FLDS community?

This was not a "compound" as the MSM portrayed it. It was a Mormon Community. They lived in separate housing, in different households. Enough said.

What happened to the woman in Colorado that made the bogus accusations towards this Community anyway? Seems as though SHE is the one that might have broken the law.

Parents' Rights Trump Polygamy
As an attorney who has at various times represented Children Services, parents and the children, in child abuse/neglect cases, I can tell you that the legal landscape is a mine field.

On the one hand, intervening in such a massive and intrusive manner into family and community life raises grave questions concerning the power of the state to disrupt and destroy families.

On the other hand, I fear that after the debacle of this case it is going to become much more difficult for the State to act in cases where serious and even lethal abuse is occuring in cults and other private and public institutions in which children have no protection against their tormentors.

Unfortunately, public children services agencies respond to the political winds in clumsy ways that sees them oscillate between extremes without ever seeming to get it right.

One day, all children get removed when complaints are received. The next day no child is removed in response to complaints.

Impeach Judge Barbara Walther!

Texas Judge Barbara Walther granted the CPS a warrant to raid the FLDS compound based on an affidavit listing “Sarah’s” call for help, an “inside informant” and the alleged abuser.

But there was NO Sarah (rather prankster Rozita Swinton made the calls); NO inside informant (rather Sheriff Doran’s bud, ex-FLDS member Flora Jessop, whom had never been at the Texas compound); and NO abuser (alleged abuser, Dale Barlow, had not been in Texas for years which his parole officer could confirm).

Yet Judge Walther granted the warrant allowing the kidnapping at gun point of hundreds of terrified children! This is an outrage!

Impeach Texas District Judge Barbara Walther Over FLDS Fiasco!

To sign the petition to impeach Judge Walther, go here:

http://www.gopetition.com/online/19682.html

Good Column
Good comments, too. Concerns about a backlash following TX's obvious overreach seem well-founded to me.

Pity that balanced thining and a reasoned approach couldn't have prevailed here. Abused kids would have appropriately identified and removed, and toddlers and kindergarteners who were in no danger at all wouldn't have been snatched from their loving parents by power-drunk civil servants.

Trump Polygamy?
I thought the Donald divorced Ivana and what's-her-name before moving on to the current bimbo.

Just kidding.

This is a complex issue
in light of the California court decision OKing gay marriage.

Since the goal of the left is to create a society in chaos, they are not going to stop there. Polygamy is next, and don't be surprised if the left uses this case to further their plans to degrade our culture.

That being said, I think it was wrong for the authorities to pull all the children out of their home. It would have been far better to ask all the men to move off the compound until the accusation had been investigated, leaving the children with their mothers.

But we have a social work system peopled with insane fools, and we can only expect more idiocy in the future.

Conservative Americans have to become more active in the affairs of state and put their collective foot down regarding issues like this. It is time that we demanded people behave normally, from the cults, to the courts, to the Child Protective agencies, to the ACLU.

Many questions.
My gut said it was wrong when the story broke. Shades of Waco, where the govt later justified killing children because they were supposedly being abused. These FLSD people did not look like child-abusers to me. The opposite. For one thing, I saw no obesity. I saw cleanliness and ordered lives. What, these 500 kids are going to be better off in foster care?

When will govt start collecting records from abortion agencies and investigating the statutory rape of under-age girls? When will it clean up public schools? When will it start examining what goes on at muslim compounds around the country?

And, now that the legal bounds of marriage are being stretched, how does society justify distinctions? Where are the new lines drawn? What, abortion & same-sex marriage are okay, but polygamy isn't?

At the least, leave the children alone until there are some solid answers and some sensible remedies.

Never forget......
....that Maggie Gallagher is a hired gun for the Bush administration.

Every word she utters is bought and paid for by the GOP. It does not reflect an interest in children, our Constitution or any other high minded ideal.

I believe absolutely NOTHING this woman says.

your pet goat
probably shudders in fear everytime you approach. Do you actually use your gray matter or do you just use it for ballast to keep from tipping over?

Where is the bachelor herd?
400 kids! Normally, this is roughly 200 boys. For every man with four wives there are three with none. Over time this would net 150 boys with no prospects for marrying (at least within the sect). Does the FLDS believe there are 72 virgins waiting for these males? Young men with no prospects are not a stabilizing influence on society. Yet this angle to the story has not been covered.

The state may well have overreached in this case, and perhaps this sect is so small the West Texas can safely absorb the cast-off males. But this story is bigger than children being separated from their mothers.

reason from the courts
It is refreshing to see some reason from the courts in Texas. With some of the wacky decisions we have seen of late, I thought these children were doomed to a childhood of abuse by the state.

We must seek to eliminate the abuse of children. But we must be careful not to become the abusers in reaching this goal.

To tear a child away from loving parents is as bad a case of child abuse as I can think of.

We must be careful as to how much power we give to the state in such matters. There are just too many Nifongs out there.

Right texasps
The CPS in Texas is pathetic.

If the CPS is so wonderful, why did they refuse to take a child out of an abusive, neglectful situation?

My brother divorced and his ex-wife started abusing drugs. They have a son and he was allowed to stay in this situation. He has seen his Mom OD 3 times (calls to my parents "mommy won't wake up) saved her. He has seen one of her boyfriends actually OD. He was not fed, clothed or bathed.

My parents would take him against court order to take care of him for the moment.

Constant calls to the CPS were met with "the child belongs with his mother"

The problem with CPS is that they are agenda driven and are looking for the "big splash".

texasps is right to get these idiots removed from their positions

Gitmo Games
This was a simple extortion case gone wrong. The state went in, using a known factually incorrect pretext and a judge well known for her socialist views and arrested the children. Please do not bother me with the "they weren't arrested, they were put in protective custody" line; when men with assault weapons and tanks take you away, and you cannot leave, speak to a lawyer, or in the case of children,speak to and have a parent present, that's shades of Gitmo. The only difference between this and Ustasi arrests were the lack of black bags over the heads. Only once the parents had agreed to whatever capricious rules and conditions CPS and this out of control judge could concoct would the children be returned from their incarceration in one of the nation's worst foster care systems. Who would have predicted mass terroist arrests of children -even those of "cultists" could generate such an overwhelming backlash by Americans?

Still under State control
If the Texas Supreme Court ordered them released and that they had no justification for going in in the first place, why is CPS still controling their movements, etc.
Would seem like the lower court is overstepping their bounds but this is normal for CPS, one of the most destructive agencies going.

hmm
I think the key is that they removed all children not just those in imminent danger, but in the end things worked out relatively well. The FLDS realize they are under the law, and the kids are back with their parents. Those who have abused will go to jail, but like Samuel Adams said I would rather allow the guilty to go free then let the innocent be punished.

The Standard
The standard for taking a child away from its mother and leaving him or her with strangers should be that the consequences of leaving the child with her would be worse than taking a child away from its mother and leaving him or her with strangers. Very few things rise to that level.

Has anyone considered that children in foster care may have a GREATER risk of being sexually abused than children who live with their parents?

Does anyone EVER do well in foster care?

Arrest the rapists in this cult, along with their accomplices. Let the others live their lives according to their consciences.

The FLDS Mothers
I don't have much sympathy for them. They walk around like zombies in their identical clothing and hair. People, please . . . they allow their daughters to be raped by perverted old men and treat their sons like trash if the "prophet" kicks them out of the community, and they actually make their children believe it is in the name of righteousness. It's sick, sick, sick. If you don't believe that girls as young as 12 are forced into sex with old men, just look at the photos of Jeffs holding and kissing a 12 year old child, and another girl who was about 14. Have you seen them?

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0527081flds 1.html

These children ARE living under abusive and abnormal conditions. It is undisputed that they are victims of sexual and emotional abuse. I feel sorry for them now that they are going back. They don't have the slightest chance at a normal life.

I don't know if there was a better way for CPS to try and save these kids. But they most definitely DO NEED TO BE SAVED. What about life, libery and the pursuit of happiness for these kids?

That these people should be afforded parental rights is absolutley insane!

PC
Are you familiar with the 1st Ammendment? People have the right to practice whatever religious beliefs their conscience dictates, without your approval. This includes the right to conform to a dress-code and be subject to church authority. Yes, it is outside current American norms, but not that unusual if you take a global and historical perspective on the case.

I agree that the criminals in this case should be arrested, but nobody should have their children taken away (or be separated from their parents) based on their religious affiliation. Even if you dislike their clothes.

On the other hand
The choice of words of the church official do not fill me with confidence. His promise to "not preside over any marriage of any WOMAN under the age of legal consent" is telling.

Most people refer to a female person under the age of consent as a "girl" or a "child".

It is good that this group is under investigation, even if the CPS went way overboard.

Conservatives for sexual abuse
I'm not surprised that conservatives are applauding the return of the children to the FLDS sect. In following conservative commentary on this issue for the last few weeks, it's become obvious to me that many conservativse have absolutely no problem with 'marriages' between middle-aged men and young teenage girls. Especially when the 'marriages' were sanctified by religious beliefs. Conservatives also have little or no problem with polygamous 'marriages,' again, as long as they are part of a religion.

Polygamy is sexual abuse of women and girls, period. If conservatives were really concerned with the well-being of women and girls, they'd be in favor of prosecuting every man in this sect who has a polygamous 'marriage.' But, this is just one of those expressions of the free exercise of religion that has a constitutional sanction, so conservatives, as good constitutionalists, just have to say 'amen' to polygamy.

I hope at least a few TH readers can see the irony of supporting polygamy on the one hand and opposing gay marriage on the other. I guess religion justifies almost any sort of immoral practice, as long as it isn't used to justify gay marriage.

Got it. Your hypocrisy is amazing.

Good For You, Maggie
Thanks for saying so well publicly what I have been saying privately. Sweep through the inner cities of Texas and collect all of the children at risk. Then there will be a outcry!

Mellors
One of the interesting points about this case was that CFS kept assuring everybody that it was not about polygamy, but about Child abuse. I would guess that is true in the strictest legal sense, but it is also a little like cons saying that Clinton wasn't really impeached for having extra-marital sex.


Pb said, "Where are the new lines drawn? What, abortion & same-sex marriage are okay, but polygamy isn't?"

This shows much of the confusion about what these charges really were about.


pc: (#18) EXCELLENT POINTS!

The FDLS spokesperson said, "In the future, the church commits that it will not preside over any marriage of any woman under the age of legal consent,"

Did anyone (Maggie Gallagher) get the "In the future..." part? "In the future" indicates that they will no longer.... which indicates that THEY HAD!

And what about those teenage girls who already had children, and pregnant with another?

Exactly what do you call "imminent danger"... just moments before they're to be assaulted?

In the real world, a parent would be charged with neglect. What's so different about the FDLS?

No polygamist
No “controlling legal authority” preformed the marriages in question. Therefor no polygamy. Under the reasoning used to proclaim polygamy (a charge never made by Texas, only by the media) individuals that sleep together and move on to new sleeping partners would be guilty of bigamy.

cwa
"No “controlling legal authority” preformed the marriages in question. Therefor no polygamy."

That's a good point. My understanding is that only one legal marriage takes place in these families and the rest are just social contracts among themselves, which is not illegal, nor should it be, no matter how repulsive the outside world finds it. Only child abuse, or sex with minors, is illegal.

But, CWA, your statement that "individuals that sleep together and move on to new sleeping partners would be guilty of bigamy" is not true, bigamy means multiple marriages that are performed under the law. FLDS would be bigamists if they obtained a marriage license for each marriage.




underage sex
No one endorses forced polygomist sex.But it is true that our culture thinks other illegal sex is just great. When I was a teacher in a black inner city school, rampant with underaged teen pregnancyies,we white teachers were admonished by black administrators and black teachers that becoming pregnant was a highy positive"cultural value"for young black girls which gave them "high self esteem" and "social rank" in their peer group. So go figure that one out. I couldn't.

moses: Heartbreaking situation!

Having worked with mothers (and a father or two) and children getting out of domestic abuse situations, I have come to the conclusion that the term "parent's rights" should be interchangeable with "parent's responsibility."

If a parent is not being "responsible" then he/she has given up his/her rights!

Sound simplistic? Perhaps! But somehow the courts simply just don't see it.

What you're nephew has experienced, just as these FDLS children have experienced, is not even close to "parents' being responsible."

Creepy "marriages"
I despise Political Koreshness in all its forms, regardless of doctrine. Yes, CPS seizing hundreds of kids from their biological mothers makes me queasy. But here's something even creepier: the sight of a 50-year-old man walking off with his 13-year-old "bride."

The court order made the best of a bad situation. But now that the kids are being returned to their parents, the situation in that compound should be monitored. It wouldn't hurt to abandon the ridiculous theology that undergirds child marriages.

PC
PC
I'm right there with you. Everyday I see these women walking around like zombies in their identical clothing. They are clearly under some kind of spell. I have seen these 40ish women shuffle through the malls with a glazed look in their eyes. Stopping at the Victoria Secrets' to purchase more of their identical clothing to go along with their tight capri's and mid-drift tops. I have even overheard these poor women, diluted by years of zealot like conditioning speak of actually having a surgical procedure to make their breasts larger. And even more shocking, I have heard them discuss what electronic device gives them the most pleasure. The Horror! Why, one woman I work with is so much under this spell that she actually took leave time from work to join other women in her cult to view a film to further indoctrinate them, and future generations, in the rituals practice by their sect. I believe it's called 'Sex In The City'.

And their son and daughters!!!! Well that's a whole 'nother story.

The government must intervene immediately to save these poor souls and their children who have been subjected to this massive brainwashing from sex crazed male demagogues'. We must act now! Call the National Guard! Oh the horror, the horror!!!!

RB

My opinion
I have blogged about this case a couple of times at my spot, and I have made many of the very arguments that Maggie makes. This case was a farce and an abuse of power from the very moment the authorities burst onto the grounds of that ranch and started raiding individual homes. This was never about protecting the children, it was about breaking up a religious sect that the mainstream finds weird and repulsive, which can be seen in many of the posts here.

To this point no criminal charges have been filed against anyone in this case, and in fact many of the women the state claimed were underaged were adults...they were part of the numbers of underaged brides trumpeted in the press to turn public opinion against the FLDS. It should have raised some red flags when the police, CPS, and media were so in step with one another; the press knew way too much way too soon for there not to have been some collusion with the authorities.

As for the pictures of warren Jeffs, what does that matter? We don't know how long ago those pictures were taken and the last time I checked Jeffs was not a principal in this case, and he was locked up in prison. But again, by plastering pictures of Jeffs in the media the focus is taken off of the abuse by the state and shifted to the FLDS. We may not like their lifestyle or their religion, but they are Americans and their rights must be respected.

Anne:
Your kind of talk scares the hell out of me and should of all freedom loving peoples. You sound just like the people who justified taking over 400 hundred children away from their mothers on fallacious and whimsical charges, many of which were found to be exagerated or outright untrue.
Certainly parents have responsibilties, but it is not up to you or the nanny state--who always think they know better and invariably screw up the works--to decide when their brand of irresponsibility is better than the biological parent's.
But I see by the illogic of your previous post where you might come from.
To wit: "Did anyone (Maggie Gallagher) get the "In the future..." part? "In the future" indicates that they will no longer.... which indicates that THEY HAD!"
Just what kind of logic do you use to assume this unfounded assumption?
All the person is saying is that they will not do so in the future. He doesn't say they did it in the past, and there is no logic that can assume so. Though it may be true, it cannot be proven by your statement, but only assumed through guesswork.
While it MAY be true, your statement is not logic, and your assumption in caps makes you wrong at the top of your voice.

Gestell: EXACTLY!!
Polygamy is sexual abuse of women and girls, period. If conservatives were really concerned with the well-being of women and girls, they'd be in favor of prosecuting every man in this sect who has a polygamous 'marriage.' But, this is just one of those expressions of the free exercise of religion that has a constitutional sanction, so conservatives, as good constitutionalists, just have to say 'amen' to polygamy.

Yes and polyandry in the form of "paternity fraud" (practiced by at least 4-10% of the wives/partners country- thanks to NOW) is the sexual abuse of men in financial peonage. If progressives were interested in "equality" there would be manditory paternity tests & they would prosecute every women who has a secret "husband" on the side. But this is one further example of the responsibility-optional, consequence-free lifestyles enjoyed bu too many American women.

The "polyandry" epidemic is a bigger problem than an isolated group of theocratic wack-jobs.

Gestell: EXACTLY!!!
Polygamy is sexual abuse of women and girls, period. If conservatives were really concerned with the well-being of women and girls, they'd be in favor of prosecuting every man in this sect who has a polygamous 'marriage.' But, this is just one of those expressions of the free exercise of religion that has a constitutional sanction, so conservatives, as good constitutionalists, just have to say 'amen' to polygamy.

Yes and polyandry in the form of "paternity fraud" (practiced by at least 4-10% of the wives/partners country- thanks to NOW) is the sexual abuse of men in financial peonage. If progressives were interested in "equality" there would be manditory paternity tests & they would prosecute every women who has a secret "husband" on the side. But this is one further example of the responsibility-optional, consequence-free lifestyles enjoyed bu too many American women.

The "polyandry" epidemic is a bigger problem than an isolated group of theocratic wack-jobs.

Texas was dead wrong
but, again, as with the Duke lcarosse players, I wish people would become aware that the state is dead wrong many, many times in prosecutions, and without a decent defense lawyer (which many cannot afford), you end up railroaded by the state.

Gestell: The welfare of children
If society actually cared about the welfare of children, it might start by removing the “implied” legal standard that children are the sole “property” of their biological mothers from conception to legal adulthood. To begin with, the “virtuous” gender unilaterally exercises its "reproductive rights" 1.4M (30% of children conceived) times annually (w/o considering the corresponding responsibilities)by aborting, committing infanticide, & outright abandoning their children for purely capricious & arbitrary reasons. Additionally, American women bring about 70% of divorce actions (the “No-Fault” Divorce legal movement was started by the National Association of Women Lawyers in 1960), have children out of wedlock at least 37% of the time, and are invariably “entitled” to subsidized housing, welfare, food stamps, child custody, child support, alimony, etc. Women are the biggest sexual/financial exploiters of multiple husbands/partners. Their near monopoly with respect to child custody results in women committing over 60% of all cases of child abuse & neglect. Non-biological partners account for an additional 30%. It would seem, in the absence of evidence of abuse, that default shared custody would be in the best interest of the nation’s children. Unfortunately, in this current state of institutionalized misandry, when all things female are sacrosanct and beyond reproach, maintaining the consequence-free, responsibility-optional lifestyles of irresponsible women children trumps the interests of this nation’s children. They are their mother’s “property” after all. Isn’t gender-feminism wonderful?

Gestell: The welfare of children
If society actually cared about the welfare of children, it might start by removing the “implied” legal standard that children are the sole “property” of their biological mothers from conception to legal adulthood. To begin with, the “virtuous” gender unilaterally exercises its "reproductive rights" 1.4M (30% of children conceived) times annually (w/o considering the corresponding responsibilities)by aborting, committing infanticide, & outright abandoning their children for purely capricious & arbitrary reasons. Additionally, American women bring about 70% of divorce actions (the “No-Fault” Divorce legal movement was started by the National Association of Women Lawyers in 1960), have children out of wedlock at least 37% of the time, and are invariably “entitled” to subsidized housing, welfare, food stamps, child custody, child support, alimony, etc. Women are the biggest sexual/financial exploiters of multiple husbands/partners. Their near monopoly with respect to child custody results in women committing over 60% of all cases of child abuse & neglect. Non-biological partners account for an additional 30%. It would seem, in the absence of evidence of abuse, that default shared custody would be in the best interest of the nation’s children. Unfortunately, in this current state of institutionalized misandry, when all things female are sacrosanct and beyond reproach, maintaining the consequence-free, responsibility-optional lifestyles of irresponsible women children trumps the interests of this nation’s children. They are their mother’s “property” after all. Isn’t gender-feminism wonderful?

According to the public's judgment
On these Mormons, the only mistake they have made was to not pass out condoms and provide them the public school sex education.
That has produced such sterling examples of purity and morality for young women.

If the Mormons had adopted the public school teachers into their "compound" and added an abortion clinic, the public would be praising them for being "enlightened".

And if these young girls were screwing more than one man, they would have heaps of honor coming from the public, the socialists and the liberal zombies like you Gestell.

No conservative has approved of polygamy, and in fact have made the laws against it you hypocrite.



Gestell: The welfare of children
If society actually cared about the welfare of children, it might start by removing the “implied” legal standard that children are the sole “property” of their biological mothers from conception to legal adulthood. To begin with, the “virtuous” gender unilaterally exercises its "reproductive rights" 1.4M (30% of children conceived) times annually (w/o considering the corresponding responsibilities)by aborting, committing infanticide, & outright abandoning their children for purely capricious & arbitrary reasons. Additionally, American women bring about 70% of divorce actions (the “No-Fault” Divorce legal movement was started by the National Association of Women Lawyers in 1960), have children out of wedlock at least 37% of the time, and are invariably “entitled” to subsidized housing, welfare, food stamps, child custody, child support, alimony, etc. Women are the biggest sexual/financial exploiters of multiple husbands/partners. Their near monopoly with respect to child custody results in women committing over 60% of all cases of child abuse & neglect. Non-biological partners account for an additional 30%. It would seem, in the absence of evidence of abuse, that default shared custody would be in the best interest of the nation’s children. Unfortunately, in this current state of institutionalized misandry, when all things female are sacrosanct and beyond reproach, maintaining the consequence-free, responsibility-optional lifestyles of irresponsible women children trumps the interests of this nation’s children. They are their mother’s “property” after all. Isn’t gender-feminism wonderful?

John: Exactly
West Texas can safely absorb the cast-off males.

No one is talking about the adolescent boys who were routinely cast out- w/ the permission of their mothers.

Liberals are such Morons
Just look at the public school system and see the end result of these insane wacko's policy.

Where be a virgin is laughed at and scorned, and given access to the State becoming the Head of Household barring a man from raising his child by bribing the young girls to get rid of him and get their food stamps and welfare checks.

Then these insane wacko's have the unmitigated gall to point they bony fingers at the faults of another.

Oh God, be glad to see these perverts reap what they have sown, and see the State take their children from them over an accusation and give them no day in court to defend themselves facing their accuser.
And be judged by JURY of their peers, AFTER the evidence has been presented and the Defense has RESTED.


Morons here and actually say conservatives support polygamy, you brain dead liars.
This subject is about Rights to be seen Innocent before the Law UNTIL proven guilty.
I hope and pray you get charged with some crime and treated like these people have been treated.
Hell is too good for you slime




Demosthenes,
Posting your comments once should be enough.
As for your lengthy paragraphs that make much of your otherwise usually intelligent comments hard to wade through, that is more than enough.

Just Right
Thanks Maggie for pointing out that millions of Teenage American Girls are having children. The majority of the Fathers to these children born to Teenage Girls in America are Adult Men, Not teenage boys! The Gov't ignores these acts. The task of going after these Polygamist was just easy, and they thought America would cheer it on because they are Polygamist. Glad to see that most of America saw throught the Smoke Screen. It was just an Act By BIG BROTHER to control the American People!

Gestell
Do you live in the USA? Polygamy is practiced daily by millions in this country. They dont call it that but never the less it is the same thing. A teenage girl has a child with a 20 something yr old man. Then few years later she shacks up with another has another child, then maybe another and so on. Several men one woman and many children with different fathers. The father continues with the same pattern with many different woman. Only differnce is they dont do this under a religion nor do they all live on a "Compound" They live in Gov't Housing, Called HUD. I really think you need to look at the big picture!!!

ACLU
As far as I know, the ACLU never got involved in this case. There were about four hundred lawyers who were, though, mostly representing the children. So I don't think any thanks to the ACLU are due.

The woman who called this in also wasn't a crackpot or hated the FLDS. What was found was that she had written a book on them. It didn't sell very well, for some strange reason. But it did sell during the week that Jeffs was in trial as people were curious about who he represented. She called this in because she thought she could increase her book sales again by getting public attention on the group. And I suppose she did.

Typical talent scout
He loves to use every opportunity to slam Mormons.

Hint to talent scout, these folks are NOT Mormons, very far from it.

He also made a major mistake in his description. He say the FLDS girls are screwing the men. It is the other way around. And it's more accurately called RAPE.

(But I wouldn't expect much out of a Huck follower, anyway. They seem to be stuck on stupid.)




FLDS worthy of respect
Hardly any of the "teen mothers" were teens (they were in their 20s), and many were not mothers. If you look at any of the FLDS websites (yes, they have them) you will find that many of the women blogging there are not mindless automated Stepford plural wives, but bright, intelligent, caring mothers who have made an adult choice of which most Americans disapprove. I find that most of the criticisms of the FLDS are that the mothers are teaching their children to marry as they did (similar to Jewish parents hoping their children will marry Jews, Catholics wanting their children to marry Catholics, etc.). When it comes down to it, I don't think they'd be criticized if it weren't for their religion. There ARE other girls marrying older men, or just sleeping with them, but since it's not for religious reasons there's no problem. I don't wish to join the FLDS, nor do I support in any way forced marriage (including monogamous--it's hard enough at times when you chose it freely lol) or child abuse (that was what they were looking for initially, right? but didn't find?), but I am impressed by their personal modesty, their lack of selfishness, and their willingness to face public disapproval.

Teaching Girls to be Mothers or Sluts
The FLDS biggest crime is against the Feminists. FLDS members are teaching their daughters to become Mothers and be dependent upon men to provide necessities for them to stay home and raise their children according to their beliefs in accordance with Our Constitution. This is the main crux of Feminist Judge Barbara Walther rulings. Otherwise, she would issue a warrant for every mother who has or will have a child under the age of consent in Texas.

However, the state has no problem with their public agencies (i.e. public schools) teaching our girls to become sluts and having sex anytime and with whomever they want even if the man or woman is over 18. Yes, the public schools are teaching homosexuality too which the FLDS was not teaching.

This is not about religion or polygamy
AT ALL. It is about rape and coercion and secrecy and control. Last time I checked, those things are anathema to true religion.

Those of you who keep talking about religious freedom are completely missing the point. Freedom to practice your religion ends when you start hurting children. The state has a right and an obligation to protect innocent people, especially children who cannot protect themselves.

There is no question that the men in this group participate in sex with girls as young as 12 or 13, with the full knowledge and encouragement of the women/mothers. They think Warren Jeffs is to be obeyed no matter how destructive his teaching are to their own children.

It's sick, sick, sick I say again.

Comments for RB: And as for my last comments about the dress and manner of the women- I believe in their freedom to dress however they want, but believe it happens to be an indication that something is amiss and a little creepy about the whole group.

pdv - HA!
The FLDS are teaching their daughters to be rape victims who should shut up and take it.


reply to Florida
Why do conservatives think that we liberals are supporters of the idea that it's just find for underage girls to have children by multiple fathers? We know the consequences of single-parenthood as well as you people do. What shall be done? Make it illegal? Imprison the women? Near-criminal sanctions are usually the best the right wing can come up with, which compounds the already wretched situations of many such girls or women and their children as well.

What's so bad about the FLDS situation is that what's going on there is true, instiutionalized polygamy, which for many, maybe most, liberals is inherently abuse of women and girls. I repeat: conservatives give polygamy a free pass if it's done in the name of religion. Why you should be proud of this is beyond my comprehension. Can you tell me?

replly to Demosthenes
As a liberal, I have no problem with reducing the bias that legal and social service agencies typically have for the biological parents of children in distress. I am personally familiar with a situation in which a birth mother, who was a full-time hooker, was able to regain custody of her daughter, who had been adopted by a family belonging to the church I attend. Now the daughter is in her mother's business.

Of course, conservatives typically defend 'traditional' values, and one of those traditional values is the sacrosanct relation between mother and children. I say: the good of the child should prevail, regardless of the legal status of the parents. But then I'm a liberal, so what do you expect me to say?

Gestell
It's not that polygamy gets a free pass if it's done in the name of religion. That's a little twist on the view. It's more that religion, and the free EXERCISE thereof (not just a vague personal belief that doesn't amount to anything), is protected by the Constitution. Therefore, if a religious group believes men and women have the right (and in the FLDS view, apparently, the obligation) to live in plural marriages, they deserve to have that right protected Constitutionally. It's the same with believing that one should not work or drive a car on the Jewish Sabbath, or that girls should be keepers at home in Conservative Christian circles, or that Muslim women should veil their heads. These are RIGHTS.

Gestell
You still are missing the Point! It is all about Freedom. See teenage girl who is Knocked up by 25yr old Man living in HUD housing has the freedom to do so, But FDLS teenage girl living in Compound does not have the same freedom? Do you truly not see the problem? Why is it overlooked by Gov't for HUD Housing Girl but not FDLS girl. The obvious difference is RELIGION. By the way this bias by the Gov't is called Communisim....Thats right you liberals are praying for a Marxist day in America!!

Convince Me
-PC

Convince me with some prosecutions or indictments of any of the men in the TEXAS FLDS compound.

Independent Thinker: Sounds more like..
"Non Thinker!" (#32)

I admit, the methods they used were probably not the best. BUT, I don't live in Texas, so I'm not all that familiar with their laws. And, added to that, I don't recall any time (except for Wako, and we know how well that ended) where the authorities had to deal with such a large numbers of abuses... and the operative word here is ABUSES!

"... fallacious and whimsical charges, many of which were found to be exagerated or outright untrue." Says who???

Exactly how fallacious and whimsical is a young girl who already has one child and pregnant with yet another???

"Certainly parents have responsibilties, but it is not up to you or the nanny state--who always think they know better and invariably screw up the works--to decide when their brand of irresponsibility is better than the biological parent's."

So, that means you would, and suggest any agency should just standby and allow any child to be raped or beaten, because that kind of irresponsibility is tolerable because it's the biological parent's irresponsibility? And that makes sense to you???

"To wit: 'Did anyone (Maggie Gallagher) get the "In the future..." part? "In the future" indicates that they will no longer.... which indicates that THEY HAD!'"

Actually, it's perfect logic! Do you say, "in the future" when you're referring to something that you either have or have not done in the past??? The phrase "in the future" PRESUMES that from that point forward some action or behavior will change...

But my point still stands...

Typocal hypocrite PC writes:
PC writes:2:13 PM EST
Typical talent scout
He loves to use every opportunity to slam Mormons.
---
ts:
I have this opportunity to do that any time I would care to.
And need no reason at all.
I believe Mormon doctrines are false doctrines, but I believe Mormons have the identical rights from God I do.
You use any opportunity that arise to attack me and not stick to the topic, of which I am not on the personal level you come to show what a hypocrite you are.
----

PC writes:
Hint to talent scout, these folks are NOT Mormons, very far from it.
----
ts:
They say they are.
Just like you Mormons call yourself Christian
Typical hypocrite response found here daily.


----
PC writes:
He also made a major mistake in his description. He say the FLDS girls are screwing the men. It is the other way around. And it's more accurately called RAPE.
-----
ts:
Never said anything close to that the way you lie and insinuate with a double meaning, showing yourself a liar, intentional liar.
This is what I said
quote myself:

"And if these young girls were screwing more than one man"
----
Pc writes more lies and says:

(But I wouldn't expect much out of a Huck follower, anyway. They seem to be stuck on stupid.)
-----
ts:
Never supported Huck, never, still do not.
Truth does not matter to people like you though and just come to lie.

Lies are like dope, the more you lie, the worse you get.


Demosthenes @ #'36, #37 & #39
Inarguable.
A half-dozen would not be too many!

Out of 464
Children taken by the DPS, how many of them were girls?
How many of them were boys?
How many were under the age of 13?

The Texas Supreme Court got it right and over ruled that liberal judge who follows no law in taking these children away without a single conviction or trial.

Now that the door is open
To comment on polygamy and Mormorism, these Utah Mormons want to deny these people in Texas are Morons, but believe Joe Smith is one who married around 40 different women.

So if Joe Smith is still considered a Mormon as one would expect he, seeing he founded this sect, why would the people in Texas who believe as he did and live not a Mormon?

Mormons have so many twists in their religion its like following a Side Winder Rattlesnake

ACLU in Texas
Scrolling back through, I can't find the comment now, but someone said that the ACLU had not been involved in the FLDS issue in Texas. They were. Here is a link to their amicus brief: http://www.aclu.org/images/asset_upload_file831_35467.pdf


pc: #49
To YOU it is not about religion or polygamy. To the CPS, the state representative and the judge, it most certainly is about religion and polygamy. They stated so the first day they raided the place. They also stated that they were going to adopt out all children of the sect. Then, by the next day, they had backed down and were talking about child abuse. Sort of the way they did at Waco. Child abuse is always a fall-back position if you can't get the public support for your failure to follow the laws.

Coercion, secrecy, and control is part of what all religions are about. Attend church in any religion and you will see. Secrecy isn't so bad, at least in Christian groups, but coercion and control certainly are.

And according to my wife those dresses are comfortable and cooler than most while not exposing their assest to the world like most other clothing does.

TalentScout…


Amen to your reply #38. Sexual abuse is OK if practiced by liberals in government schools.


The issue here is whether state agencies must operate within the law or not. Why do liberals defend the rights of terrorists, but justify the abuse of rights of these citizens? It’s for the children like Obama is for the children when they are born alive after an aborted abortion.


talent scout
Showing your true colors, I see.

The FLDS are not Mormons and have no right to call themselves as such. They are guilty of identity theft in their use of the term Mormon.

"Mormon" has ALWAYS meant membership in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints. The LDS church is the only church with a legitmimate claim to the term Mormon. When the FLDS aposticized from the LDS church, they no longer had the right to be call themselves Mormons. Period.

There are no twists in the LDS church. That is why it is attractive to so many people and why it's the fasted growing religion in America. It's a very straightforward explanation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Correcting an honest mistake
quote myself agains:

Now that the door is open
To comment on polygamy and Mormonism, these Utah Mormons want to deny these people in Texas are Mormons, but believe Joe Smith is one who married around 40 different women.
-----
Joe Smith and all Mormons practiced polygamy up til Utah became a State.
And was a Founding Doctrine of the Mormon Religion.

Yet some Mormons come on this thread and say these people in Texas are not Mormons.
And are actually better and braver Mormons than all of the rest of the LDS in Utah.
They still follow the true teachings of the Mormon "prophet" Joe Smith, and its the LDS who does not follow Mormon teaching any longer.



PC
"Comments for RB: And as for my last comments about the dress and manner of the women- I believe in their freedom to dress however they want, but believe it happens to be an indication that something is amiss and a little creepy about the whole group."

Thanks for swallowing the bait and showing your true colors. Yes! You alone are the arbitrator of what is creepy and what is not! You can tell by the way someone is dressed that "something is amiss". What a privledge it is to communicate with someone of such ability. You should run for dictator. I bow to you.

By the way, does that go for skin color too?

RB

45caliber
No, they emphatically continued to say that it was not about religion or polygamy, but about protecting children.

How can anyone dispute that some, not all of the girls in that compound are being or have benn abused? Talk to anyone who has escaped. Look at the pictures of Jeffs with the 12 year old "bride". Sick. It IS happening and the proof is there with those who have eyes to see.

My religion, as most, is NOT about control or coercion. EVER. Exactly the opposite. your comment is very revealing, I think you are a little mixed up on what religion is.

Oh, and the dresses - I like to wear them myself, (not the same style) they are comfortable. I simply think the creepy conformity of all the women show they are controlled and that something is just not quite right about the whole group. I think most people would agree.

When will we see indictments in

this case? If we never see indictments, then the State of Texas definitely abused and violated the civil rights of these people and the State of Texas should somehow be held accountable for its lawlessness and punished at least financially. If there are indictments, unless it is of all the parents, the State of Texas still has abused and violated the civil rights of many of these people and it still should be held accountable for its lawlessness and punished, at the leas financially.

The FLDS definitely grew out of the teachings of Joseph Smith. They are a branch of what people have commonly called Mormonism. They are not members of the LDS, the predominant branch of believers who apply the teachings of Joseph Smith.

Posters should stop convicting members of the FLDS of evildoing without evidence. Doing so is called character assassination and slander.

Oh RB, come now
I don't CARE what they wear, and I was not saying it was wrong at all, only an indication of their mindset. Did I ever say that their dress was a crime or should be controlled? Nope.

These women are allowing themselves to be controlled by creeper men, and allowing their daughters to be raped.

They are also guilt of abandonment of their sons. Read the history of this group by those who have escaped. It ain't pretty, and I shall never defend such treatment of children in the name of relgious liberty.

Dress of FLDS
Why is it even an issue how these women dress?? Is there some higher morality in those who wear jeans instead of dresses, or for those who wear current fashions (as dictated by those who want to make more money this year when women throw out last year's fashions) instead of avoiding the issue of style at all? On the same judgment, all Amish children should be removed from their homes, because there is obviously something wrong with women who dress all the same, especiall in dresses!

Response to PC
You say, "It is undisputed that they are victims of sexual abuse."

It was disputed by the Court of Appeals and it was disputed again by the Texas Supreme Court. Both courts ruled there was no EVIDENCE that these children were abused but people like you are still promoting the Nazi propoganda that CPS put out there to justify their gestapo behavior.

CPS is out of control in Texas but in case you haven't noticed, it's out of control in Oregon too.


RB in other words
Is it a crime to be different? No.

Does being radically different indicate something? Probably.

Is it a crime to HURT CHILDREN? YES, and it should be. Some of these folks ARE hurting children. Let's find them, and protect the kids.

The FLDS may indeed be the

true heirs of Joseph Smith. Whatever the case, that question is a theological one that all of the various branches of Smith's followers must resolve.

To we uninitiated, there is no way to decide who most properly advocates the teachings of Joseph Smith. Without question though, Joseph Smith was a proponent of polygamy as was Brigham Young.

LW
I never said I though CPS was perfect, and I am well aware of the abuses of these gov agencies in Oregon and elsewhere.

But, in my opinion they erred in trying to protect children. I don't know of another way they could find out which children in the group are being abused. It's very hard to get information about these people. If there are abuses going on there, do you think we should try to do something? I do.

The story isn't over. They have evidence and will most likely bring charges on some of the parents.

I want the children who have been abused and who are in danger of being abused to be protected. You would want to protect your own children, as do I. These children deserve no less.

I agree that it was a bad route to take all the children. They should have focused on those 11 or older.

PC,

how long did you live in an FLDS compound? Or are you basing all of your accusations on hearsay?

PC
You know PC I never mentioned religous liberty. I honestly could care less. And it has nothing to do with the way anybody dresses. It has nothing to do with what history you have read. It has nothing to do with whatever you and I believe. Now pay attention carefully.....

IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH FOLLOWING THE CONSTITUTION AND BEING ABLE TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE OF WRONG DOING BEFORE YOU CAN SEIZE 400 CHILDREN! WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE? NOT ANOTHER CASE, THIS CASE! NOT WHAT YOU READ SOMEWHERE. WHERE IS AN ARREST, AN IDICTMENT OR ANY OTHER PROOF? WE HAVE SOMETHING IN THIS COUNTRY CALLED RULE OF LAW. READ THE HISTORY OF THAT.

RB

reply to Jordanriver
Sorry, but I can't see that the Constitution protects polygamy. You might recall that this issue was raised back in the 19th century in connection with Mormon polygamy. Long, long before there were any modern-style liberals on the Supreme Court, that court held, in "Reynolds v. United States" (1879) that the free exercise clause of the 1st Amendment could not be used to permit individuals to violate (in this case, territorial) laws banning polygamy.

Most people, left and right, think that the free exercise clause provides unlimited freedom for people to do whatever their religions dictate. Not even close. That's why, for instance: (1) DEA regulations trump the 'right' of someone to use peyote in a religious service; (2) local ordinances prevent practitioners of Santeria from sacrificing chickens on their laws; (3) Orthodx Jews are not permitted to wear the yarmulke when on military duty..and many more examples can be found.

So, no, polygamy is illegal, or can be made so, and the free exercise clause has limits.

Oh eddie too
He loves to defend the FLDS, but takes every opportunity to malign the LDS faith. I think that speaks volumes about him.

A month ago, eddie too was here on TH saying that adult/child sex is not evil. He never explained the comment.

eddie too - No. The FLDS renounced Joseph Smiths religion, the LDS church and aposticized. It's not hard to know whick church most properly follows the teaching of Joseph Smith. It is the LDS faith. The FLDS have taken and perverted ONE teaching of Joseph Smith beyond rcognition. They have no affection for any of his other teachings, such as free will, chastity, virtue, proper and legal marriage vows, respect for women, and a host of other things he taught.

And to be clear, the practice of polygamy as done by the FLDS bears only the most superficial resemblance to what the early LDS saints did. They never coerced, changed families around taking wives or children away from each other, forced young girls into sex, or tried to control women. And for the most part, they did not marry young women. In fact, the average age of marriage for women in America during the time period of LDS polygamy, was actually younger for those not living in Utah.

reply to Jordanriver
Yep, familiar with the Reynolds case. I think THAT was abuse of religious rights just as much as the CPS raid in Eldorado was an abuse of religious rights. Yes, even if the Supreme Court upheld it. I still find it incomprehensible that polygamy is "illegal" but multiple partners is not, homosexuality is not, divorce is not, etc. The only difference I can see is that one (polygamy) is (usually) based on religion. And despite what everyone is saying, it is not inherently equated with child abuse or oppression. What goes on in Eldorado I have no personal knowledge. Perhaps there is abuse there. Perhaps. But polygamy should never be the issue--just the alleged abuse.

RB
The evidence of wrongdoing is obvious in the girls who have had children at younger than legal ages. It proves that there are sexual relations of men with girls.

Indictments are coming and the initial reason to check out the ranch was valid, even though the call was bogus. The CPS acted in good faith when they started their investigation.

They should not have taken all 400+ children, I agree.


PC,

does not care what stories she makes up about who!! She will say whatever serves her purpose apparently. Why should people believe PC instead of the FLDS when it comes to the teachings of Joseph Smith? Why should anyone believe you PC? Do the RLDS believe you? I know you will say they are not true followers either. So what, what makes you and the LDS the one who determines Mormon rights and Mormon wrongs and Mormon truths?

More comments
One poster said that she did not feel sorry for the cult mothers.

The point is NOT who we feel sorry for, but what is in the best interest of the children.

The situation at the compound was not the healthiest, but far superior to the crummy foster home industry, where the children may have been MORE likely to have been sexually abused than they were in the cult, where at least they waited until the girl was 14.

Another comment was asking why the men weren't charged with rape.

I suppose that there is not enough evidence yet to charge them, and that the issue is still under investigation.

Grabbing the kids is not good, especially if they can require the men to remain off the campus until the investigation is complete.

It is typical of the Left who run the social programs that they are hysterical in regards to sex.

It is funny to me that the Lefties make a big deal about sexual freedom, but then freak out at the thought of sex actually occurring.

This is why they go ballistic when teenage boys hold a "slapbutt" day, or when a 6-year-old boy kisses the other little girls.

I think the entire bunch of them need therapy.

PC
"The evidence of wrongdoing is obvious in the girls who have had children at younger than legal ages. It proves that there are sexual relations of men with girls."

Yes! Under age girls could only get preqnant by adult men. Of course!!! How could I have missed that?

PC that comment pretty much speaks for itself. Have a nice life. Please don't run for office.
Good day.

RB

RB sing it from the roof top!!!!
Well put, "WE HAVE SOMETHING IN THIS COUNTRY CALLED RULE OF LAW" Which applies to ALL!!

Ms Gallagher

You wrote: "Plus, polygamy is so fundamentally unattractive to women it is very hard to sustain without isolating young girls (and forbidding them access to divorce). So crackdown on those bad guys!"

BINGO- you were so close!!
The whole point here is that the women are isolated. They are slaves. And the girls are bred to be fresh virgins for the old perverts that run the place.
Is that part of your family values?
And that's the difference between them and the underage pregnancies you cite on the outside--CHOICE. FREEDOM. Big, big differences.

One last thing
In our sympathy for the abuse of this cult in Texas, we need to be careful not to go the other direction and start permitting polygamy in this nation.

Besides some fringe groups of Mormons, there are Moslems who are practicing poligamy, almost without notice.

Because we have sat on our hands while the morality of the country has declined radically over the past 50 years, now groups of people, such as Hugh Heffner and his money-grubbing bimbos, can live together in defacto polygamy.

Now, it is hard to have anything to say against people who are breaking the laws.

We have slid down the slippery slope, and are getting ready to plunge over the abyss.

Most of the citizens are acting like Lemmings, and could care less about it until they sail over the edge like Thelma and Louise on downers.

Ms Gallagher
If these woman are so enslaved and have absolutely no choice like the girls on the outside, how come only 1 has refused to go back? This doesnt sound like slavery to me, I mean during enslaved America, Black people ran away whenever they got the chance! They ran even knowing they would loose their lives, but they did it anyway. These woman have not done anything that even resembles running? Your theory doesnt hold water!

Polygamy
I'm sorry, but I guess my libertarianism is showing. Exactly WHY do we "need to be careful and not to go in the other direction and start permitting polygamy"? And exactly where is the proof of the statement, "Polygamy is fundamentally unattractive to women"? It's obviously unattractive to many, which is why there's little of it. But here in Utah there are MANY polygamists, most of them NOT associated with the FLDS, and I've known a number. They've lived in my ordinary neighborhood, worked at my work places, etc. They're mentally balanced, happy, and unisolated. Why do THEY need to be chased by the law, when their neighbors are allowed to divorce, sleep around, remarry, and divorce again? Why is it considered immoral to have a stable home with a backup mom if the "real" mom has to work late?

PC's attempt to separate the FLDS
From Mormonism is laughable.
Just one example of why no honest man should believe anything these people teach.

The FLDS Church emerged in the 1930s when its founding members left The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). The split occurred largely because of the LDS Church's renunciation of polygamy and its decision to excommunicate practitioners of plural marriage.

Its the Utah Mormons who have left the teachings of their own "prophets".

The FLDS are much better Mormons than any of the Utah Mormons, as they keep the tradition of polygamy alive as taught by both Smith and Brigham Young.

And practiced openly since Smith founded this sect.


In direct opposition to the teaching of Jesus Christ in Matthew 19:4-9, the Mormons embraced polygamy. Not only were they permitted to have multiple wives, they were required to do it to reach the highest heaven. Joseph Smith at Nauvoo, Ill., on July 12, 1843, made the following "revelation" concerning polygamy from the Lord:

For behold, I reveal unto you a new and everlasting covenant [polygamy]; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my [Lord's] glory (Doctrine and Covenants 132:4).




Reply to Gestell/PC
I agree with your reasoning, but by the same reasoning, a community or state can outlaw porn, sodomy, homosexuality, adultly, abortion, etc. It is still the whims of men that determine which laws one will uphold, or which laws these same justices will determine unconstitutional.

However, if the FLDS were were following Joseph Smith, they would be adhering to the 12th article of faith "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law" which was written by Joseph Smith as a tenant of the church.


Florida
The women practicing "polygamy" you speak of in the housing projects are doing so with a free will.
Different.

REPLY TO PC
So your definition of rape is: If I, PC FEELS it is rape it is rape even though the rape did not occur to me and I don't know the women or have never spoken to the women I feel were raped. The FLDS women must not be capable of consensual sex.

For you who support the Texas

Raid on this group of Mormons, I look forward to you supporting the same sort of raid on every Mosque in this Country.

That religion teaches polygamy.
And women being slaves to men

PC:
I know what the CPS have continued to say. But I live here in Texas and get more news than you do about it unless you can get the TV stations and newspapers there too. The CPS are not concerned with child abuse in this case. They may be concerned about possible sexual contact with young teens but I really doubt it. The main people involved are very concerned about the group as such. Like Waco, they are using child abuse after the fact to try to change what they initially started.

ALL religion is about coercion. They attempt to get you to worship their way, some by force if necessary. And all religion is about control in that they want to control what you do and say as part of the religion. After all, if you belong to a Catholic church, they wouldn't want you to go around saying the Pope is an idiot. They wouldn't punish you, probably, but they want to keep you from it generally by coercion. I've been a Christian all my life and have attended a number of churches. The last thirty years or so I've been Methodist. But coercion isn't necessarily wrong for religion either. I'm just willing to admit it is there.

If LDS Mormons
Call these Texas Mormons false Mormons, then they must also call Joe Smith and Brigham Young false Mormons.

And false prophets as they are in truth,admitted to or not.

Mormons embraced polygamy.

Not only were they permitted to have multiple wives, they were required to do it to reach the highest heaven. Joseph Smith at Nauvoo, Ill., on July 12, 1843, made the following "revelation" concerning polygamy from the Lord:

For behold, I reveal unto you a new and everlasting covenant [polygamy]; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my [Lord's] glory (Doctrine and Covenants 132:4).

SunThe1
Not one of the woman I saw had shackles on their feet? They could of easily had CPS help them get them and their children a place in Gov't housing and all the social services they needed, But I have not seen one do this, sooooo wouldnt you call their actions FREE CHOICE? If i was enslaved in a compound, I would have jumped at the chance to have CPS help me get out not fight to go back!!

Reply to Florida
I couldn't tell--was your comment about the polygamists in housing projects directed at my post? Perhaps, perhaps not. But if it was, you proved my point. You said it was different if they had free will. EXACTLY. So, polygamy itself is not the issue, right? Therefore, why should it be illegal? And by the way, I do not live in a housing project (again, if you were talking to me). It's a normal middle class neighborhood of detached single-family homes.

Totally agree
once we grant to the federal goverment the right to make moral judgments we will end up with situations like waco texas,legalized state sanctioned normalizing of homosexual marriage,same sex sextual education forced upon children in all schools and basically having biblical morallity criminalized.This incremental goverment control of children should cause people on both sides of religious beliefs pro and con to be concerned.

Florida
You are wrong.

The women in the projects CAN leave.
The women in the compounds cannot.

One thing all can be clear about
If the FLDS women were free to screw around with many men as their Public School counter parts are allowed to do, and blessed by half of America, all would be well in Texas and the Mormons.

If the FLDS women had an abortion clinic in the "compound" and aborted most of their babies, the liberals would be all for sending them welfare checks and food stamps.

And a Government Grant to pay all the costs of abortion.


jordanriver
I was responding to Gestall. Polygamy is not the issue at all it is about Constitutional Rights. Actually these people call themselves Polygamist, but they are not breaking any laws. They are not legally married to more than one person, which is actually polygamy under the law. They call the other woman spiritual wives. Kinda of like shacking up with several woman. Sounds like Swingers, which is totally legal! I dont condone any of these lifestyles, but dont like when Gov't violates Contitutional Rights!

SunThe1
How do you figure they cant leave? I saw hundreds of them at the shelter that CPS put them in originally? They appeared on TV, They were in court met with CPS social workers,police and their own legal aide attorneys. They had all kinds of opportunities to get out! They didnt they fought to go back. Thats the facts plain and simple!!!!

Where you get this idea?
SunThe1 - 5:52 PM EST
Florida
You are wrong.

The women in the projects CAN leave.
The women in the compounds cannot.
----
From what I have seen they are all free of the "compound" and just want to RETURN.

Show us where they are happy to be outside the "compound".
All I have seen is they want to go back.
And just want everyone to let them live their own lives.
Course that is too much to ask from the tyranny loving liberals/communists/mensheviks and socialists all over America today.






My Pet Goat
"I believe absolutely NOTHING this woman {Gallagher] says."

Sure - she even got the name of the group, state, and judge wrong.

PERSECUTION FOR NOT BEING PC

.....Just because people have loony lifestyles does not mean that they have forfeited their Constitutional rights ...apparently the lessons of Ruby Ridge and Waco have not been learned ...

.....I do not condone Polygamy nor do I usually agree with the over zealous ACLU but they got it right this time .....COLOSSUS

talent scout
You are the liar. Do you now deny that you said adult/child sex is not evil? I can find the post if you want me to.

You are also deliberately lying about the LDS church. The new and everlasting covenant of marriage is about marriage, not polygamy. No one is now or ever was required to live polygamy to "reach the highest heaven". You have your facts wrong, what a surprise. You think you know more about my religion than I do.

You love it when you can come here and malign the LDS church. I feel sorry for you, a little.

oops, sorry talent scout
I confused you with eddie too. You guys are sorta like 2 peas in a pod. He's the one who said adult/child sex is not evil.


jordanriver
Is that your LIBratarianism showing, or your Jordan-ism showing?

If you like the idea of Polygamy, why don't you live in a country where it is permitted... like, say..... JORDAN?!!!!!

Or how about Saudi Arabia?

It is amazing to me that people like you think a return to the stone age is progress.

RB - you're kidding
You don't believe underage girls are having sex with old men at the compound?

Try reading the history of the FLDS and testimony from those who have escaped. Carolyn Jessop is a good place to start.

Warren Jeffs nephew filed a lawsuit against him for sodomy that happened when he was only 5 and 6 years old. His brother was also abused by Jeffs. The brother committed suicide and so the first nephew finally decided to speak out.

Some prophet. This is the guy they have pictures of hanging on their walls. This is the guy who is seen kissing a 12 year old, his new "bride". This is the man who controls everyone, even taking away children and wives from men and handing thiem over to another pervert.

Go ahead and put your head in the sand. But I believe these children also have constitutional rights. Maybe even life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness! It's not just for perverts.

Free to leave?
Abused children very often defend and want to return to their parents. That's not love, it's fear. These women are the same.

Some of you in another era would undoubtedly be saying that the slaves appear to be perfectly happy on the plantation. And if they get a whipping sometimes, well people get beat up out here on the street too. It's the same thing.

Disgusting.



Florida
Not many black slaves ran away, compared to those who stayed. Very few of them tried it more than once. They don't stay out of love or choice.

Tough Emotions and little Evidence.
Ok, now let me get this straight. The country (citizens) who love sodomy and gay sex and marriage and live on Face Book and MySpace and follow R rated movies like a religion find it very objectionable that a man can have more than one wife. Ok, I get it. It's twisted but I get it. On the other hand unmarried sex is smiled at on every TV show you can imagine. Ok I get that too.

What I don't get is how anyone just ignore the constitution of the United States and ride into some town and take all the kids away like some modern Pied Piper who has a tank and heavy weapons rather than a flute.

Oh yeah someone said a crime had been committed. Let's arrest everyone in Texas so we can be sure and scoop up that guilty party. Why stop just at the border of the FLDS ranch?

REmember friends if they can do it to the FLDS they can do it to your town, neighborhood, ranch, farm, or house.

Doesn't that kind of scare you? It does me.


More Ideas for Arrest.
Let's check all of Texas and find every girl that has gotten pregnant under the age of 17 and begin criminal prosecutions. Of course kidnap the baby when it's born also, and incarcerate the underage month in some foster home. All right. That ought to make things right in the world. After texas, the world.

Face it, if the FLDS did not have unusual beliefs the authorities would have simply passed out free condoms in elementary school to take care of the problem.

Am I outraged? Well duh. YES. Aren't you?

UNBELIEVABLE
PC writes: 7:05 PM EST
talent scout
You are the liar. Do you now deny that you said adult/child sex is not evil? I can find the post if you want me to.
----
ts:
Yes I deny it.
Lets see you find it, I bet you anything you want to bet, you are a common liar.
----

PC writes:
You are also deliberately lying about the LDS church. The new and everlasting covenant of marriage is about marriage, not polygamy. No one is now or ever was required to live polygamy to "reach the highest heaven". You have your facts wrong, what a surprise. You think you know more about my religion than I do.
-----
ts:
I know I know more than you do, cause I know your errors.
You are BLIND to.
Joe Smith preached polygamy, and everyone knows it.
I cannot imagine why you think everyone is ignorant of this KNOWN FACT.
And imagine that anyone believes you are doing anything but showing how ashamed you are of your own "prophets lies".

Makes you a hypocrite, understood by you or not.

I will post the info for you to learn about Joe Smith and his lust filled polygamy beliefs.
I see you do not know your own religion, or are intentionally lying one.
------
PC writes:

You love it when you can come here and malign the LDS church. I feel sorry for you, a little.
----
ts:
I love the truth, thats why I fight the good fight of faith against they lies of Joe Smith and Brigham Young, and all followers of those false prophets.



LDS finally faces the truth openly
New LDS manual acknowledges Smith's teaching of polygamy

* Mormon Polygamy Discussion

http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_8010181

By Peggy Fletcher Stack - The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 01/18/2008

A new manual LDS Church members will use to study the writings of Joseph Smith notably includes references to polygamy. The preface includes these two paragraphs:

"The Prophet taught the doctrine of plural marriage, and a number of such marriages were performed during his lifetime," the book's preface says. "Over the next several decades, under the direction of the church presidents who succeeded Joseph Smith, a significant number of church members entered into plural marriages."

In 1890, President Wilford Woodruff issued the Manifesto, which discontinued plural marriage in the Church (see Official Declaration 1), it continues. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints no longer practices plural marriage."


http://www.4thefamily.us/lds_manual_polygamy

Problem with some of the Mormons like PC is they are ashamed of the truth, and are left with trying to deny it and call people like me liars when they are the only ones lying.

Smith had close to 40 wives and Brigham Young 50.
Absolute TRUTH, and KNOWN TRUTH AT THAT.
So why do people like PC try and deny the facts?
She/he is ASHAMED OF THE TRUTH

BJ
Nicely put BJ. I hope PC was reading.

RB

Outraged by Polygamy? Really?
First, I belong to a conservative Presbyterian church and am reformed in my theology.

God ordained marriage for one man and one woman. Whenever God's law is broken there is judgment.

But one would have to be woefully ignorant of Scripture to think God looks as severely on polygamy as he does on other sins such as sodomy and adultery. BTW adultery and sodomy were captial offenses in the OT.

My thesis of the outrage against modern day polygamy has more to do with feminism than morals or Scripture, if it did their relative abhorence would be congruent with Scriptural standards.

No one knows this, as yet, no trial
Has proven a single allegation.

----

SunThe1 writes: 7:54 PM EST
Subject: Free to leave?
Abused children very often defend and want to return to their parents. That's not love, it's fear. These women are the same.
------
ts:
Why you need to exaggerate it then?
Why be afraid to let them have their day in court to prove this one way or another?
How can anyone know what you accuse here?
They have had no chance in an open court to give their side.

Why act like Hitler about it?
What you got against giving these people the same rights you expect before the Law?
Its rotten to be so selfish.
----

SunThe1 writes:
Some of you in another era would undoubtedly be saying that the slaves appear to be perfectly happy on the plantation. And if they get a whipping sometimes, well people get beat up out here on the street too. It's the same thing.
-----
ts;
And you are a good little Nazi
----
SunThe1 writes:
Disgusting.
-----
ts:
You most certainly are

Horrible abuse of government power
This confiscation of children was one of the most disgusting abuses of government power since Waco. If they had succeeded, don't think your children would have been immune. Next on the list: Home Schoolers?

ts
You wrote:
"How can anyone know what you accuse here?
They have had no chance in an open court to give their side."

The same can be said for the people who YOU accuse. The day in court will come. I am not prejudging, and if things are found to be as wonderful as some of you think, and the government/cps is found to be emulating the gestapo, I will be the first to admit it. I would challenge those on the other side to do the same if it's found otherwise.

I'll ignore the remainder of your namecalling post (and won't be answering another like it). It is hardly naziism to care about the welfare of the helpless. I'd see it the other way around.

To Mountain Rose
No, the Jordan River reference is to a) the one in Utah between the Salt Lake and Utah Lake, and b) to the idea of baptism. I'm neither Middle Eastern by lineage nor Muslim by faith. It's interesting to me that instead of addressing the issue--Why is polygamy illegal, and should it be?--nasty (and false) assumptions about my character and heredity are made. That's normal to attack the messenger when you can't actually find fault with the message, but it doesn't further the discussion at all :).

Why exaggerate?
SunThe1 writes:
- 10:44 PM EST
Subject: ts
You wrote:
"How can anyone know what you accuse here?
They have had no chance in an open court to give their side."
-----

SunThe1 writes:
The same can be said for the people who YOU accuse.
---
ts:
I honestly do not know what you mean by this.
What people are in this same jeopardy of law that I do not want to give them a day in court?
STICK WITH THIS SITUATION,deal with this one.
And stop with imaginations.
Herr Sun.

----

SunThe1 writes:
The day in court will come. I am not prejudging, and if things are found to be as wonderful as some of you think,

-----

ts:
Where did I say these people are wonderful?
Why you lie like this if you have any thing worth saying based in credibility?
I have major differences with these people, but I believe in order to have rights in this country, respected by the State, we must support rights for all, even these Mormons.

-----


SunThe1 writes:

and the government/cps is found to be emulating the gestapo, I will be the first to admit it. I would challenge those on the other side to do the same if it's found otherwise.
---
ts:
Yes you have judged them guilty, already.
Just as the Judge and the DPS has already done

Are you just stupid?
The Judgment has already been made, without a trial.
The children have been taken and placed in the custody of the State.
Until the SC of Texas rebuked the nazi judge who ordered it to begin with.
---
SunThe1 writes:
I'll ignore the remainder of your namecalling post (and won't be answering another like it). It is hardly naziism to care about the welfare of the helpless. I'd see it the other way around.
----
ts:
Nazi's did not respect the Civil Rights of certain Citizens, the Jews.
Nor do you the rights of these Mormons.

It is just exactly like nazi's.
I do not care if you ever respond to me anyway

You brought this sort of argument
Up yourself Sun, when you make this sorry accusation.


SunThe1 writes:
Some of you in another era would undoubtedly be saying that the slaves appear to be perfectly happy on the plantation. And if they get a whipping sometimes, well people get beat up out here on the street too. It's the same thing.
-----
And is why I said this:
ts;
And you are a good little Nazi

Not ok for you to come and call some, or anyone slavers and not get compared to how I see you and your ilk.
Reap what you sow.
Do not like being compared to a nazi, then do not support nazi tactics the DPS in Texas uses against American Citizens.

talent scout
You're hardly woth arguing with but I must answer your accusations.

First, I apologized for confusing you with eddie too, even though you too are cut from the same cloth. Did you see my apology? I realized my error immediately and corrected it, but you conveniently ignored it so that you can call me a liar. Pathetic.

Second, I never denied Joseph Smith or Brigham Young had many wives and taught plural marriage. Why would I? I'm not one bit ashamed of my own family history or the history of polygamy in the LDS church. My great grandmother grew up in a polygamous home. Wow that was some expose on the manual saying Joseph taught polygamy! Duh, some newsflash. Mormons have never denied the teaching of Joseph Smith at all. We love and revere him as a great and faithful prophet. Brigham Young as well. We also believe in continuing revelation and love our modern day prophet, Thomas S. Monson just as much.

I'm afraid your constant picking at the church and claiming to know more than LDS members do about their own religion makes your look rather small-minded and petty.


Lets clear the air moron, I mean mormon
PC - 11:24 PM EST
Subject: talent scout
You're hardly woth arguing with but I must answer your accusations.
----
ts:
Nothing to argue with is your problem, so you have made it personal between me and you.

What a dumb and useless pos you are yourself.
You came on this thread and attacked me.
Not me you.
I just responded to your ACCUSATIONS, moron.

I do not care if I ever see your screen name again, be a better world if no one else did either.



Pure Bilge from PC, who writes:
First, I apologized for confusing you with eddie too, even though you too are cut from the same cloth.
----
ts:
You hypocrite, your judgment stinks like you do.

You want this personal fight, you got it moron.
-----
Pc writes:



Did you see my apology? I realized my error immediately and corrected it, but you conveniently ignored it so that you can call me a liar. Pathetic.
-----
ts:
I ignored your apology moron, its an accusation you should never make at anyone when you are not certain of what you are saying, you hypocrite.
----
PC writes:
Second, I never denied Joseph Smith or Brigham Young had many wives and taught plural marriage. Why would I? I'm not one bit ashamed of my own family history or the history of polygamy in the LDS church. My great grandmother grew up in a polygamous home. Wow that was some expose on the manual saying Joseph taught polygamy! Duh, some newsflash. Mormons have never denied the teaching of Joseph Smith at all. We love and revere him as a great and faithful prophet. Brigham Young as well. We also believe in continuing revelation and love our modern day prophet, Thomas S. Monson just as much.
-----
ts:
Exactly, showing what a hypocrite you are now in saying these Mormons in Texas are not Mormons for still obeying this man, and admire him as you do but have now forsaken his teaching about polygamy.
"We love and revere him as a great and faithful prophet"
You love and respect Smith who was the instigator of polygamy of the Mormons in Texas yet attack them and say they are not Mormons.
How twisted can ya get?




Such a liar
PC writes:
I'm afraid your constant picking at the church and claiming to know more than LDS members do about their own religion makes your look rather small-minded and petty.
-----
"Constant" I am in my belief mormon doctrine is of the devil, but rarely say it.
All I did on this thread was to call the FLDS people Mormons.
Thats all I did, and you went bonkers and began the personal attacks and accusations.
You are really, a hypocrite.
I do know Mormon doctrines as where they came from much better than any Mormon does.
Cause if they realized their satanic origins, they would not be Mormons.
You are ignorant and have been brain washed to think otherwise.
So I do know more about Mormon Doctrine than all Mormons just knowing this.


I respectfully disagree
This group won because of collusion and probably also because of what happened in Waco. When I saw those smiling, obedient women talking about Zion and giving the same answer to every question I knew what the outcome would be. They have been so isolated and their very presence was so marked by a lack of independent thought, sheer idleness and nothingness. We should all be very concerned about the children under their care. I have heard men make this same argument, but I think you are the first woman I have seen taking this position.
There are women survivors who are trying to help. There are women who experienced sexual abuse and psychological abuse under that "religion," who are pleading for something to be done for the ones still there.
I respectfully disagree with this essayist.

Reply to Lewes
Idleness? With big families, homeschooling, and raising their own vegetables? Not very likely lol.

Idleness in reference to personal growth
Idleness in reference to personal growth - appearing so disengaged and without original thoughts.
They are not idle in physical ways, I agree.

A new conservative constituency?
I had no idea that so many conservatives were so supportive of polygamy (as long as it is based on religion). I now see where a new conservative constituency can be found--among polygamists and polygamist wannabees. The latter is probably a big part of the population, so I say, go out there and organize those people! Get them registered and get out the vote! McCain won't have the stones to acknowledge this support, but you can vote anyway.

Maybe if there were lots of gay polygamists, you'd let them play too. Ya think?

hypocrisy all over the place
MG and several posters here agree that the TX CPS overstepped their authority by taking ALL the children away.
According to G, parental authority is sacrosanct, unless abuse is evident.
Except she doesn't feel that way about GAY parents.

Marriage is preferable for the support of children, which I agree is true.
Except for gay parents.
Marriage is an option for adults without the intention or ability of children, except for gay adults.

Children and what's best for them, I agree are responsible loving parents.
However, simply being one/man and one woman is no indicator that will happen. It's an assumption.

There is also agreement that slaves or those living under Jim Crow conditions were happy with the arrangement.

But many people have convinced themselves that gay people are NOT happy, and require the intervention or coercive inducements of heterosexuals to convince of this.

Such inconsistent applications, rather than equal ones is the problem. The standards of examining these issues separately AND from what socio/political context is important, but ignored.
A majority here is either too stupid to see that, or assumes the exception to that is.

Gallagher is guilty of such inconsistent applications, and none of us need be at odds if equal standards and applications WERE applied.
So, why aren't they?
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