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Wednesday, May 21, 2008
Maggie Gallagher :: Townhall.com Columnist
California's Epic Battle for Marriage and Religious LIberty
by Maggie Gallagher
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They say we are tired of culture wars. Tell that to the California Supreme Court, which didn't sound tired at all when it lobbed a big, fat hand grenade into the marriage debate.

Ideas have consequences. And the California court endorsed two big, brand-new, very bad ideas.

The first idea is that the internationally recognized human right to marry includes same-sex marriage. In U.S. constitutional law, fundamental human rights are those deeply rooted in our traditions. Not even in Massachussetts or in New Jersey could the courts quite stomach the idea that same-sex marriage is deeply rooted in those traditions.

Not even the European Court of Human Rights or the United Nations Human Rights Committee has so ruled. In 2003, the European Court of Justice ruled, "Article 12 of the European Convention on Human Rights protects only traditional marriage between two persons of opposite biological sex." (For excerpts from these and other marriage cases see "Is Marriage Discriminatory?" at www.marriagedebate.com.)

So in rooting around for precedents, the California court had liberal recourse to our neighbor to the north, Canada. Like Canadian courts, the California court grounded same-sex marriage in a larger human right to form families of choice and to have the government sanction all family forms as having equal dignity. Polygamy anyone?

Moreover, Canada is the country that ought to be voted "Most Happy to Persecute in the Name of Tolerance." Just last week the Orwellian "Human Rights" Tribunal of Ontario ruled that Christian Horizons, a charity that runs homes for developmentally disabled adults, engaged in illegal discrimination when it tried to ensure that its employees were practicing Christians who accepted Christian sexual teaching on adultery, fornication and homosexual sex. Worse than the $23,000 fine is a government edict that the organization submit to a re-education plan to change the group's attitudes.

So the second big idea endorsed by the California court is even less promising: Sexual orientation should be treated just like race under the California equal protection amendment, subject to "strict scrutiny." This is another historic first for a U.S. court.

This is a ruling which, if left undisturbed, means that Protestants, Catholics, Jews and Muslims who see marriage as the union of husband and wife, and view sexual activity as best confined to marriage so defined, are in the exact position as racists under California law. In Great Britain, a similar idea recently led a court to fine an Anglican bishop $100,000 for refusing to hire an openly gay man -- as a youth minister in one of his parishes.

There are religious liberty defenses under the U.S. Constitution for youth ministers, but not for Christian schools, physicians, social workers, teachers, attorneys, psychiatrists, counselors or tax-exempt charities. The First Amendment will not protect us if our own governments (through the courts) decide that, for example, my Catholic faith is in itself a form of bigotry.

If gay rights advocates don't really mean this to happen, why don't they stop asking courts to rule in this way?

I'd love to get beyond the culture wars in this country. But so far, there are few signs that the courts, or the people who disagree with me, are content to let me.

Fortunately the people in California do not have to accept this outrageous and sweeping ruling. Working with Protect Marriage, NOMCalifornia.org (a project of the National Organization for Marriage, of which I am president) has raised $1 million this spring to get a state marriage amendment overturning this ruling on the ballot in November. The 1,122,000 signatures we have helped gather are far more than the 690,000 needed to qualify. We expect certification this June. The next step is to raise $10 million to get the message out.

In November, voters in California, like voters in Florida, will have a chance to go on record: Should four judges overrule more than 4 million Californians who voted for Proposition 22 in 2000? We will fight for marriage and we will win.

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About The Author

Maggie Gallagher is a nationally syndicated columnist, a leading voice in the new marriage movement and co-author of The Case for Marriage: Why Married People Are Happier, Healthier, and Better Off Financially.

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Call to all Christians and Jews
Wake up! The reason why we are all going to be in prison together after we are arrested by the "Pink police" in their pretty uniforms is because most Christians and Jews ignore God's Commandments. In the Old Testament, most of Israel would not follow God's edicts, especially in regards to sexual morality. They fell to sexual deviance after leaving Egypt and before entering Canaan at baal of peor, especially after being warned by God not to do what the Cannanites do; being very specific about the sexual sins. God says that homosexuality is an abomination, which St. Paul reiterates. The Old and New Testaments constantly talk about fornication, adultery, and homosexuality as great evils. The people most to blame for the power that the minority of perverted homosexuals has are the Jews and Christians who like to dress up and go to Church and Synagogue, but don't have the backbone to follow God's laws.

Did you raise the money?
Or did Bush just write you another check?


I don't understand?
What in the heck does religion have to do with CIVIL marriage?

Atheists and agnostics get married every day. I don't understand this womans nutty extrapolations about the government not discriminating on the basis of sex in the granting of a state document and anyone elses religious beliefs.

The Catholic church has ALWAYS held that ANY marriage outside of a Catholic church is not a "REAL" marriage. I don't see any non Catholics losing any sleep over this and trying to strong arm the Catholic church into solemnizing their marriage or even changing their teachings.

Catholics and any other group, down to the nutty cult with twenty members has always had a right to teach TO THEIR MEMBERS whatever they want to about marriage and anything else under the sun.

I don't see American Christians avoiding cheese burgers just because Orthodox Judaism teaches not to mix meat and dairy!

CIVIL marriage has NOTHING to do with religion! There are also sects of Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism that support gay marriage and ALREADY perform gay marriage ceremonies.

Isn't the state discriminating against the teachings and beliefs of THESE faith groups by NOT honoring the marriages performed by them?

budbud's budding understanding
We as Christians and Jews, believe that Matrimony is an institution created by God for one man and one woman. The United States was founded with Judeo-Christian values which make our society great. Atheist societies have killed 200 - 300 million in a little over a century. Non Judeo-Christian societies have been disasters without human rights. Homosexuality is a deviant behavior which makes a person sick in the mind and dements them. When Abraham went to Sodom and Gomorrah, a homosexual society, they were so obsessed with sex that they tried to abuse him. Lust is like a fire that warps a person. Gays are so disordered that they would vote for the devil himself for President, as long as he let them have gay marriage. They don't mind that 50 million babies have been cut up and burned through abortion, as long as they have legalized perversion.

only one
God only has one Law now Ari. And I figure the proposition will pass in November.

Strict Scrutiny
Come on, your analysis of the strict scrutiny test is just plain wrong. The test only applies to government action that discriminates against a particular group or infringes on a fundemental right. you analysis is just plain wrong.

Whether the court should have applied this standard to gay marriage is another question, but your comparison to the Anglican is just dumb.

Missed the point
Bubbud, You either didn't read the article or missed the point entirely. It is simply wrong to redefine marriage; and in order to do this, to manufacture a right that never existed before. Yes, atheists and agnositics get married everyday, but they marry members of the opposite sex.

There are two ideas. 1 - No religion or society has recognized same sex marriage before, so it is not just about a religion or religion.

2-In the name of tolerance, people are forcing religious people to embrace homosexuality within their religious organizations. One example is the Anglican Bishop who was fined $100,000 for not hiring a gay youth minister. This is a violation of the freedom of religion.

The people who say they are promoting tolerance are bascially intolerance of beliefs other than their own. And are so arrogant that they will force their values down others throats. I would say shame on them, but shame is obviously a word they don't understand.

P.S. Using insulting terms to describe people with whom you disagree reflects poorly on you - not on them. It's a cheap and lazy way to try to win an argument, and it doesn't work.

It Isn't Just The Church . . .
. . . that the gay mafia doesn't tolerate. They also have no tolerance for those who are gay or lesbian, who don't rigidly toe the gay mafia's party line on matters like this (or to put it another way, stand up for traditional family values). This was a good part of what was behind the "outing" of the likes of Rep. Mark Foley, Rev. Ted Haggart and Sen. Larry Craig. I can guarantee that if the homosexual mafia had a name for such people, it would be GINO (Gay In Name Only). Likewise, people like Randy Shilts who, in the book "And the Band Played On," admitted that the gay community itself facilitated the spread of AIDS by their risky practices, have been all but Stalinized by the gay mafia.

Flawed amendment
And, if the amendment is passed it to might be ruled unconstitutional. I can no more take away your individual rights that you should be able to take away mine. It is as simple as that. In the first 8 replies I have heard terms like the gay mafia and a new one GINO. I have also heard that gays are not Christians or at least not religious. At least I have yet to hear on this thread that we don't have secret ceremonies in which we slaughter children and eat them.

Maggie's long lost credibility!
Maggie Gallagher is a fraud, a sham, a con-artist of the highest order.

On January 26, 2005, Howard Kurtz of the Washington Post uncovered records of Gallagher receiving payments of tens of thousands of dollars from the Department of Health and Human Services from 2002-2003 for helping the Bush administration promote the President's "healthy marriage" initiative. During this time, Gallagher testified before Congress repeatedly in favor of "healthy marriage" programs, but never disclosed the payments.

Still cashing those checks, Maggie?

What God has joined together...

It was God who made the marriage union possible, “God created male and female” [Genesis 1:27]; God also issued the command, “Be fruitful…” [Genesis 1:28]. It was God again who said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a help fit for him” [Genesis 2:18]. It was also God who brought Eve to Adam to be his wife [Genesis 2:22]. It was God who established marriage as a divine institution [Genesis 2:24]. This is the Scripture that Jesus Christ quotes in the New Testament confirming its divine institution and the authority of the Law of Moses [Matthew 19:5-6]. Marriage is therefore “an honorable estate”. Therefore, let not man separate what God has joined together! [William Hendriksen on Mark]


Where did equal protection under law originate? The principles of the nation depended from the very beginning on the Declaration's own theology of God as author of the laws of nature and source of the rights of mankind. Liberalism has no authority except the autonomous wisdom of man, the end of which is tyranny. By appealing to equal protection under law to justify lawlessness they nullify the whole law. This is what happens when principles derived from divine revelation are stripped from their context in the moral law of God.

The court has overthrown the will of the people in order to debase the institution of marriage by condoning gross immorality. How did we as a culture get to the point of submitting to this kind of tyranny? Why is there not outrage over this display of lawlessness?

The words of the apostle in Romans 1 are fulfilled before our eyes…’knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them’ [Romans 1:32].


My Pet Goat
21.5 k according to Kurtz. So what was illegal? Does this invalidate her testimony to that panel or everything she says about marriage or her points in this column?

So she'd probably NOT be in favor of healthy marriage if she hadn't been payed?

The Libertarian View
The state has no special wisdom to decide who should and should not be married. Actually, the state should not be in the marriage business at all; this is a matter that should be left strictly to individuals.

The state, in the past, has seen fit to forbid interracial marriages, as "crimes against nature." Yet Americans continue to believe the state should have some say in matters of marriage.

If you want to marry someone, you should seek the advice of your priest, not your politician. If a given church refuses to sanction homosexual unions, that is their right.

Regarding the commonly-heard complaint that homosexual couples "can't visit a sick spouse in the hospital," this is sheer nonsense. The contractual issues of marriage--power of attorney, inheritance--can be easily drawn up for same sex couples by any semi-competent lawyer.

The issue of gay marriage is in fact a total non-issue. Leave the state out of it!

The time has come.
"Sexual orientation should be treated just like race under the California equal protection amendment..."

The time has come for everyone to declare himself/herself gay to avail themselves of the benefits of this victim status.

not really
There are two different topics here that aren’t necessarily related. Civil marriages do not infringe on religious rights in and of themselves. As a Catholic, Gallagher should know that the Church reserves the right to arbitrarily reject couples for marriage.

This statement: “Sexual orientation should be treated just like race under the California equal protection amendment, subject to ‘strict scrutiny’” is not part of the ruling. This is either a misunderstanding or a deliberate attempt to misinform on Gallagher’s part.

The ruling does say that “an individual’s sexual orientation — like a person’s race or gender — does not constitute a legitimate basis upon which to deny or withhold legal rights.” and “no religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples, and no religious officiant will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his or her religious beliefs.”





All of the money
that is being spent to overturn this ruling, could probably have gotten us a lot closer to a cure for AIDS if spent on that. Homosexuals continue to screw themselves by refusing to own up to their unnatural tendencies and mental illness. There is no longer a stigma attached to mental illness--there are many therapies and cures to be found if only one admits to the illness and seeks help. COURAGE is a great organization for homosexuals to contact.

Marrige is not a Civil Right
Marriage is not a Civil Right it is a Civil Privilege. Anytime you apply for a license for anything it is not legally a "Right". You have no more of a "civil right" to marry than you have a "civil right" to drive a car. The issue boils down to the legal definition of marriage in the law. That needed to be changed before the laws could be. In CA they've succeeded in changing that long held definition in the name of non- existant civil rights. Then they can use the "equal protection" clause to jam this LIFE STYLE down every state's throat. Gay activists were not content with being afforded their own definition of marriage (civil unions) with all the same priviledges afford to married couples under the law so they could legally receive benefits etc.... Nope they must be considered in exactly the same way as a man and a woman. Why? How can they then sue? Because it's never really been about benefits, legal standing or even acceptance. Trojan horses. By destroying the meaning of the institution itself they can then bring down any other "barrier" they see fit all under the guise of discrimination lawsuits. How many Catholic Hospitals will be sued when these so-called couples are denied benefits because the Church doesn't recognize their farce marriage? How many Catholic Schools will be sued for the same reason? The gay activist attornies probably are already counting the billions they will attempt to steal from the Church and in doing so destroy some very fine institutions. Make no mistake people this has been and always will be about forcing their unacceptable LIFE STYLE down everyone else's throat like it or not. They will stop at nothing until we all must teach our children "that it is perfectly okay for you to be gay" or even encourage it, otherwise you will be reported and thrown in jail for "Hate Crime" or even worse child abuse.

Perspectives
//Swampfox Location: SC
Reply # 9
Date: May 21, 2008 - 5:54 AM EST
Subject: Flawed amendment
And, if the amendment is passed it to might be ruled unconstitutional. I can no more take away your individual rights that you should be able to take away mine. It is as simple as that. In the first 8 replies I have heard terms like the gay mafia and a new one GINO. I have also heard that gays are not Christians or at least not religious. At least I have yet to hear on this thread that we don't have secret ceremonies in which we slaughter children and eat them.//

==============

I can understand the necessity of changing society's view on civil rights based upon someone's ethnic background. This is a call to action based upon a human's birth.

While I have empathy for your personal situation, I and (I believe) a majority of society does not accept that the core of what we are mentally (normally) should get a privileged class designation for actions. The logical extension to the premise that you are a minority for your actions is that anyone with an inclination different for common societal conventions can claim the exact same right made up upon your word that you are homosexual.

Again, I commend the struggle you've experienced and I pray for your solace. However, I hope that at some level you can understand that this is not even a slippery slope situation. By redefining marriage to be the servant of anyone desiring to call their personal situation the same moniker you have diminished the social and legal contracts established in human society for the extent of recorded history. Words should contain the power we instill in their definitions.

P.S. Amendments are not unconstitutional as they are literally a part of the constitution of the state.

Sedonman.
It looks like Christians are claiming victimhood every time there is a challenge to their stomping all over gay citizen's ability to integrate into society openly.
Christians are crying they'll be persecuted if they don't marry gay people against their will (funny, no complaint about marrying adulterers, the divorced or murderer in prison).
Christians are crying they are persecuted when they want to wear gay negative (but not gang member or drug addict negative) t-shirts in schools.
You're claiming that gay couples marrying will foul the institution.
Bigot bait talks like that, not reasonable people who understand the evolution of human understanding. Hostile traditions cannot stand in this country, that's why we have a Constitution and Bill of Rights to begin with. And they have evolved to INCLUDE, not exclude.
And now for the first time, discrimination is to be written into CA's Constitution and over such mob hysteria it truly boggles the mind how convinced you all are that YOU'RE victims here.
Churches are not compelled by the state to marry gay couples. Only courthouses will.
Maggie G is a LIAR! And your own hypocrisy on victimhood flares like a wildfire.

FIVO
The state had no compelling evidence to uphold the ban. All it's arguments were contradictory to the core and intent of the state's interests.

There IS no interest except based on ANIMUS. Even the tradition of marriage has evolved to include different classes of people. And homosexuality ISN'T a choice anymore than skin color or your heterosexuality. What would it take to make YOU gay, and you'll have your answer to that.
You can't decide that's not true because of the Bible and the coercive nature of our society that made gay people hide their orientaton (which is not evidence of changing.).
The courts ruled for several reasons, ALL of which were rational responses to the understanding of gay lives, not only in AMerica but globally.
Being gay is a variance of ORIENTATION that's been here since before your religion and the marriage ritual as we know it in Western or the most influential religious cultures.
Rational people have to consider that when deciding on such and important case.
Your ignorance, and lack of the historic context of judicial intervention is important to mention.
Yours is strictly a religious based belief, but it's reactionary, and not as legitimate as YOU'D like.
Sure, only because heterosexuals are COMMON, are they able to exact some power over gay people. But hetero orientation is no mark of righteousness, virtue or intellect.
You wouldn't argue to me you know more about what my life means as a black woman, but you had the arrogance to talk to a gay person as if you did.
You're common, that's all. So are right handers. And it's hard to be a left hander, or gay in a world that wants to be blind to you and your existence.

FIVO...what an arrogant statement
"By redefining marriage to be the servant of anyone desiring to call their personal situation the same moniker, you have diminished the social and legal contracts established in human society for the extent of human history".

First of all, marriage has evolved and has become almost a strictly romantic institution where before it was mostly economically mercenary and require women be subjugated within it. They were PROPERTY.
Second, yes...ACTS (such as non procreational sex) are not a reason for exclusion from marriage. Being a gay person is morally neutral and gay couples agree to the current standards and practices of marriage.
Which is to be two consenting non related adults married for the purpose of primacy and custody of the other. Period.
The state discriminating based on gender or orientation IS wrong, because the ROLE of gender isn't defined and sometimes physical gender isn't in nature.
And orientation again isn't an indicator of virtue or character.
Marriage as a life and love affirming institution, cannot ban gay couples on the basis of what you think their WORTH is.
You cannot judge the worth of EVERY heterosexual or man and woman, to be married.
And the state doesn't do that anyway. So it can't with equal intent, do that to gay people.

why are you assuming it'll be bad
Why are you and the opponent here ASSUMING there will be a diminishment?
Why are you asserting that it's a BAD thing to include gay people? Gay folks are NOT so different from yourself to justify it.
Most often, if a gay person didn't tell you, you wouldn't even know them from any other citizen on the street.
So WHAT diminishment? WHAT bad conclusion?
How would you KNOW, unless gay people actually got legally married?
See...you DON'T know. You can't be certain of that which hasn't had the opportunity to reveal itself here in CA, or anywhere else in America.
There IS actually an upside to the open acceptace of gay people in the mainstream? Like to see?
Okay..here it is.

the list
1. Less divorce from mixed gay/straigh marriages.

2. Less gay children being abandoned and excluded from their families which leads to risks of depression suicide, and school failure.

3. Less family implosion from mental and emotional, if not physical abuse of gay children.

4. Less risk of addiction or homelessness from said parental abuse or abandonment.

5. More monogamy, commitment and hope of the future. Which always changes a young persons motive to do better and care for themselves.

6. More couples available to adopt needy children (heterosexuals keep up quite a supply that exceeds demand).

7. More productivity ( a couple can be free to support each other through professional or economic downturns.

8. More support for the extended family. For aging parents, for the children of siblings, for the other benefits that free up a gay person to be available to the family who needs them.

9. Less risk of public assistance because inheritance of property and other federal benefits will be bestowed.

10. Less risky behaviors because of the grounding and affirming institution and hope marriage brings.

11. Less assault and violence against gay people which would lessen the need for hate crimes or any other anti hate legislation.
12. More competent soldiers for our all volunteer army.

13. And more happiness and hope for it for gay people.
14. More happiness for their parents, siblings and friends because no one is afraid or has to hide or be deceptive or silent anymore.

15. You can still have your religious belief and your own religious community. They don't have to accept homosexuals and the gov't won't make you.

16. You can still speak out against gay people and convince other people that a gay person being happy is a bad thing in society.

con't
19. You can marry once and again, you can't protest against divorce and adultery (but I don't see you doing that, your hetero fellows would call you out on that.

20. You can maintain your beliefs with your fellow believers.

However...you might want to consider that YOUR ACTS has consequences too.
You seem convinced it's YOU who is going to suffer and that you're a victim of gay incursion into your life and against your will.
The fact is, gay people aren't new. Nor are they strangers. They will be your own family, colleagues and any manner of citizen you could encounter at any time.
If you are so convinced that marriage is to fragile and so at risk from gay people, then maybe it's not what YOU think it is or should be.
It'll only be strengthened by those who take the vows to heart and live by them. Gay people can do that. And you saying they can't or are incapable wouldn't be fair. First you have to help gay people do right by it.
Not judge them from never having the opportunity to prove otherwise.
Although Jesus wasn't specific about gay people. He was specific about treating your fellow man the way YOU want to be. The rest takes care of itself once you do.
And this is one of those times.

some issues buried in the nonsense
Unlike most of the columns that are up in arms about this decision, this one raises some interesting points. Although it does bury them in large bits of nonsense.

timatatoro seems to be right that strict scrutiny applies here to government legislation and actions that would discriminate against homosexuals and not directly to discrimination by institutions.

Gallagher does seem right that this ruling treats discrimination against homosexuals like it does other forms of bigotry. But it is not clear exactly what the consequences of this are. Religions have generally been free to be bigoted. California does not penalize the Catholic church for not allowing female priests.

The effects, if any, would be on religous related services that are otherwise secular in nature. In Massachusetts a Catholic adoption agency got out of the business rather than put children in the homes of gay parents. Apparently they thought it was better to leave the children in foster care.

But Gallagher turns her argument into self-parody when she suggests that it is the gay community that is pushing the culture wars. After all, the impetus for the ruling was not homosexuals trying to tell people what to say. if was people like herself telling homosexuals who they could marry. Homosexuals are hardly starting the fight by resisting being discriminated against.

du,

engaging in sodomy and other deviant sexual acts are a choice. To say otherwise is a falsehood.

marriage
My daddy once said "a horse is a horse, a mule is a mule. They look alike and they do the same type of work, but 10,000 liberal judges saying anything different is wrong". So, let those liberals judges and anyone else who says that a marriage is whatever they say it is alone. We know the difference and that's all that's important. A horse is still a horse and a mule is still and a marriage is still between a man and a woman. Rave on liberals, we know we're right.

Propagation
Correct me if I'm wrong, but all Law's regarding marriage to include tax brakes are to encourage Propagation. My question is: Just what to Gays Propagate??

Oh Lord
If two gay people want to shack up, leave their estates to one another, visit each other in the hospital and enjoy common property rights for heaven's sake go ahead! Nobody is going to or would stop you. As has been said, any competent attorney can draw up the necessary papers to that effect.

But let's be honest, here. Your situation is not marriage and cannot be arbitrarily described as such just because you swap spit, feel "the urge" and pay the bills just like heterosexual folks do.

Like it or not marriage IS defined by who may participate. No judge, legislature, or other entity, civil or otherwise, is free to redefine the meaning of the term or the contract just because some feel put upon by the weight of centuries of a common understanding, whether or not you believe it is based upon the Bible-though nobody yet has come up with a satisfactory alternative as to the source of marriage.

Have your "ceremony". Throw your party and cut your cake. But marriage it isn't and never will be. Grow up, stop squawking about "discrimination", live quietly and learn to deal with it as others do. You'd be surprised how many people would then simply view you a part of the furniture rather than as obnoxious nuisances.

Autocracy
I think they call California an autocracy and the judges the autocrats. Maybe this will awaken the population to the need for vigilance in who and why we allow certain legal minds to sit on the highest courts of our states and our country.

Marriage or Civil Union?
There must be some good reason(s) why every government in history until now has declined to allow marriage to be defined as other than between a man and a woman. Even as prominent in ancient Greece and Rome as homosexuality was, the government did not endorse same sex marriages. This appears to be true regardless of the religions dominant in any cultures at a given time. This seems to indicate that at all levels of belief(or lack thereof) from outright atheism to pure religious living there is something in the human soul that seems to understand that marriage is a sacred institution and we tamper with it at our peril.
If having some kind of formal ceremony makes you feel better go ahead but I think deep in our guts we believe marriage is for opposite sex couples as it has been defined for thousands of years.

Du's List
Your list indicates quite the rosey future for the poor and abused homosexual children that will now be saved once the priviledge of marriage is afforded to homosexuals. No need for fortune tellers Du knows the future and the judicial fiat that occured in CA will make it so. Damn if only this would have happened sooner all the social ills in the U.S. would have disappeared by now. Give me a break. Your entire list (many items are so far-fetched they aren't even worth the time to comment on) can apply whether the privilege to be married is bestowed on homosexuals or not. Nothing on your silly unproven list is more apt to happen or not apt to happen via homosexual marriage or no homosexual marriage. Although divorce does become a non issue and lawyers can't make any money on that one.

budbud
" There are also sects of Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism that support gay marriage and ALREADY perform gay marriage ceremonies."

I would like some documentation on this. What "sects" of Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism practice homosexual marriage?

As long as Christians remember

Jesus' teachings on marriage when they vote on this issue of so-called "same-sex marriage" everything should be ok and marriage will continue to exist. Afterall, it was Jesus who said marriage is between a male and a female.

Seriously missing the important point
All who responded please forget about trying to define marriage for a moment, and look at the real point of this ruling.

The people of the state of California voted in a motion by overwhelming majority. There is nothing in the U.S. Constitution that prevents the populace of a state from defining marriage. Yet, four individuals waived their gavel and over-turned the will of the people, creating their own, new version of the constitution as it applies to their state. That's what should make everyone afraid, no matter how you view this issue.

Senator John McCain has been opposed to amending the U.S. Constitution to define marriage because he believes it should be up to each individual state to define marriage in their state. Yet, in this case, four people made the decision with no representation whatsoever, this in one of the most liberal states in the nation.

If we take this lightly, what other rights will be taken away by the few elites who land in convenient positions of power?

The real question to ask is, "What steps must we take to protect our right to govern ourselves with a government 'of the people' rather than allowing four people to dictate their personal will upon us?"

FIVO
Regarding your comment about "What would it take to make you gay?"

I have personally worked in the prison system(voluntarily) and have seen many, many people both male and female who were heterosexual before being convicted of a crime and became involved in a homosexual relationship after being incarcerated.

I don't believe sexual desire is a matter of destiny. I think anyone can be attracted to the same sex or the opposite sex. Human beings are very complex creatures and sexuality is even more complex.

All human beings have a need for sexual intimacy. When people are incarcerated, they simply adjust to what is available to meet their needs. I think that homosexuals have done the same thing. For whatever reasons, they are not able to relate in a normal way to the opposite sex. An example might be a man who was abused by a domineering mother. Having sexual needs, they therefore turn their focus to what IS available to them.

We are all capable of this under the right circumstances.

You are so right!
Phanerosis & Sederoff #s 36 & 37

Thankyou for saying those important things.

Hear hear,,,
If you guys have been in awe over the GAY RIGHTS parades of the past,,,

Just think of the ADRENALINE rush you will get when that PEDOPHILE/BESTIAL RIGHTS parade comes to town?

I for one am looking forward to it with much anticipation.

HEY FIVO
regarding,,, what would it take to make you gay?

That my friend is not the question.

What would it take to make you PEDOPHILE/BESTIAL?

That is the question.

DU
IF a pedophile or a bestial did not tell YOU they were a pedophile or a bestial would you even know they were one? You probably know many pedophiles and bestials as friends but just not thier sexual preference.

Live and let live ,,, right?

HMMMMM
I can see your confusion ,,,,
"GAYS are consenting adults" thus are different than pedophiles.

besides polygamy being CONSENTING as well and not getting the LAWS changed for them lets talk about CONSENTING.

Consenting adult is a definition given by society as a specific AGE.

FOLLOWING the example of GAY RIGHTS and how JUDGES can change society laws THEY deem important. It does not take much to see how JUDGES can change the AGE or DEFINITION of consenting adult.

If a judge tells YOU your 10 year old daughter is a consenting adult and can now have sex with whoever she wants,,,,, deal with it... and call it progress.

This process is how GAY RIGHTS have accrued and will be followed by other rights shortly.

The future's so bright,,,, gotta wear shades.

scooter,
You asked a stupid question, so I'll just assume you're stupid.
Animals and children cannot consent. I work in law enforcement WITH gay police officers alongside me.
We ALL equally concern ourselves with assaults on children. And children are assaulted and abused by STRAIGHT men most of the time, and gay people as well. Straight parents abuse their children in ways you obviously don't want to believe and criminalist workers like me are not helped at all by stupid people who bear more prejudice instead of common sense.
Think of all those innocent black men lynched because a white woman made a casual accusation.
You're displaying the same mindset that gets innocent gay people violated and heterosexual child abusers off will less scrutiny.
You think you're doing the community any service with YOUR attitude?
We have a name for people like you.
It's called a mau mau.
It's people like you who don't know when they are a LIABILITY that are more dangerous than those they arbitrariliy accuse because of their prejudice.

reply to Hannah
Hannah: You write that the California court can’t “manufacture a right that never existed before.” How do you know what rights existed “before” (and how long is that?)? The “right” of persons to marry across racial lines didn’t exist “before” either, so I imagine you’d like a return to traditional American values on that issue, i.e., back to anti-miscegenation laws. Conservatives always seem to forget that the Founders did not draw up a closed list of rights. In the Declaration, as you no doubt recall, after Jefferson writes that “they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,” he goes on to write that “among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” Note “among these.” This suggests that the three rights listed are not the only ones that people have. What are these other rights that are not named? How do we find out what they are? And note that the “Unalienable” quality of the three named rights extends to those not named. In other words, it is reasonable to suppose that the three rights named are not the only ones we have.

Now turn to the Constitution. You’ll notice, of course, the 9th Amendment: “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.” Again, what are those other rights, and how do we know what they are? We liberals think that the language of our founding documents makes abundantly clear that there are other rights Americans have besides those enumerated in the Constitution. How come you conservative originalists don’t get it?

consenting...
another plug for BESTIALS on consenting. You love your dog (literally) and who in society is to determine that your dog does not CONSENT to sex with you? PETA won't blush. Gay and Lesbian alliance will just ask you to keep it in private. And your VET (if you pay him enough) will tell you how to keep your sex SAFE.

The kicker will be a JUDGE who rules that consent of a non-english speaking animal can be inferred by the guarding of said PET,,, YOU.

Waalaaa,,, your pet now gives you consent to bugger away. And society can now view you as NORMAL just like GAYS and LESBIANS. YEAHHHH

reply to Fivo
In your effort to extend Christian condescension to Swampfox, you write: ”I can understand the necessity of changing society's view on civil rights based upon someone's ethnic background. This is a call to action based upon a human's birth..” Clearly, then, you are among the vast majority of conservatives who appear to believe that being gay is simply a personal choice, sort of like preferring Pepsi to Coca-Cola., and NOT a matter of birth. The familiar question gays sometimes ask, when confronted with this nonsense, retains its force: why would anyone choose to be loathed by and in danger from large numbers of his or her fellow citizens by ‘turning’ gay? I think conservatives haven’t a clue about this, because, of course what they want to be able to do is to blame gays for being gay.

This brings me to my next point. The column quotes language from the California court’s decision:

“an individual’s sexual orientation — like a person’s race or gender — does not constitute a legitimate basis upon which to deny or withhold legal rights.”

Here is where the deepest level of the conservative position can be found. Most conservatives believe that they can and should be allowed to do precisely what this sentence is about, operate from what they regard as a “legitimate basis upon which to deny or withhold legal rights.”

What conservatives should be working toward, if they understand what their views truly imply, is a constitutional amendment qualifying the protections of the Bill of Rights by cancelling out its applicability to gays. Doesn’t that about sum it up?


Luis, get some help
You're a sick, SICK individual. And I don't need an anatomy lesson. Heterosexuals just as deliberately make themselves permanently (vasectomy, tubal ligation), or temporarily sterile and are still viable, legitimate and productive members of society.
For millions, babies are the goal to have sex.
Take yourself to a shrink. You cannot function here with any normal ability to debate.
You're a menace and a liability yourself.
Get. Help. Now.

oops three letter typo
meant to say : for millions babies are NOT the goal to have sex.

Free to live like that, ya know?

Du
PLEASE get on board with the rational of what is and is not OK in this society.

Do you now understand that it is up to the JUDICIARY or a JUDGE to determine these issues and not you and me?

Let me repeat myself (you have a hard time seeing the logic apparently).

The laws on CONSENT or ADULT or CHILDREN are no more or less SACROSANCT than they are for MARRIAGE or HOMOSEXUALITY (it use to be illegal you know).

If judges can and have changed laws and definitions on marriage and homosexuality then WHY can't they change them for the age of consent?

Why is it OK for a JUDGE to overturn society laws on MARRIAGE for GAY RIGHTS (you seem to be OK on the process) but then stop for PEDOPHILES and change the age of ADULT. NOT

HAHAHAHA,,

Please DU.... understand the rational and then reply with your BIGOTED response against pedophiles and bestials,,,,

You do understand your a bigot towards these other citizens don't you? Or is it now OK to be bigoted against some groups?

Du
I love how you think that sexualized groups YOU agree with should have rights but others YOU don't should not.

To think like this is only human and we all have our little failings (me too).

Where YOU are failing more than others is to think that the PROCESS of GAYS getting rights thru the JUDICIARY is OK (ends justifying the means crap).. and not realizing the pandora box for the OTHER rights YOU don't like comin on thru later.

Future's so bright,,, gotta wear shades.

what this thread attracts
Okay, this is no fun at all. Sick people like Scooter in UT and Luis and AliveinHim are handicapped when it comes to making cogent and worthwhile statements.
And would be the first to balk at being called bigoted, when bigoted remarks are all they are making.
You dont' like being compared to bigots.
But you do GO ON and ON comparing gay people to pedophiles, murdererers, thieves, rapists and adulterers.
You don't like being called on your lack of facts, but you're certain that what you have gleaned from straight people who share your views couldn't and wouldn't lie to you to get you to go along.
You don't like being called stupid, but yet you can't rub two normal thoughts together that don't devolve into crude assertions on body parts and where gay people put them.
Gay people rightfully should be offended at their love for their children and each other being compared to all of the above pathologies.
But what they say about your beliefs and accusations offends YOU to the core.
Your offense is hardly as justified as theirs.
For you, it's barely a matter of inconvenience to witness gay people marrying, pushing baby strollers or receiving professional accolades from their peers.
It's YOU who is the liability here, scooter and Luis if you think your ideas and beliefs are legitimate for the rest of society to harbor.
And they don't really. At least I hope so. Because you're pretty much academic now. There is no question about the legitimacy of gay productivity in our society, in spite of the discriminatio.
Things would be better if you just stood aside and let good people get on with doing the good work of justice and fairness.

Here's some answers for you!
" There are also sects of Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism that support gay marriage and ALREADY perform gay marriage ceremonies."

I would like some documentation on this. What "sects" of Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism practice homosexual marriage?


Well, look it up. Just off the top of my head The Unitarians, The United Church of CHRIST, Reform Judaism (the largest Jewish sect in the U.S.), Soka Gakkai (MY Buddhist sect), MCC (the largest gay Christian denomination), and countless other independant Christian churches throughout the country that affirm attraction and love between members of the same sex.

You should also know that MOST Buddhist sects do NOT have a problem with homosexuality OR gay marriage. In fact, here is a quote you might find interesting. "Whereas there is no negative judgment of homosexuality in the Buddhist religion; whereas a number of BCA ministers have been performing same-sex weddings for a period of at least thirty years; whereas we wish to affirm the worthiness of all persons, independent of sexual orientation: Now therefore be it resolved, that the Ministers Association of the Buddhist Churches of America opposes any governmental prohibition of same-sex marriage."

You also need to know that one of Americas OLDEST faith groups ALSO performs gay marriage and is publicly outspoken in their support for gay marriage. The Quakers!...

This doesn't even include all the faith groups who while not outright marrying gays just yet are already stradling the fence by performing same sex "blessing ceremonies" for gay couples. Many Episcopal churches are already doing this for example.

Religion cuts BOTH ways my friend. For every faith group whom you claim condemns homosexuality, I can find one which affirms it.
Why should the beliefs of YOUR religion and YOUR religion ONLY prevent OTHERS from organizing THEIR families as they see fit.

Du
I'm hoping that logical thinking will permeate this board and you will come your senses and see that the JUDICIAL process is WRONG to change the laws of society.

Many ills in society have been changed correctly thru history by the LEGISLATIVE process...

SLAVERY, WOMENS SUFFRAGE, 1965 CIVIL RIGHTS ACT.

Do you see the difference du? Can you now see that what you believe should be a right and I believe should be a right is LESS important than HOW those RIGHTS ARE WON OR RECOGNIZED?

Please tell me i'm making some progress here,,,, (liberals are so difficult to teach)

scooter,
Do you have an intelligent question in that tiny mind of yours?
I'm done with you. You're too uninformed and irrational to discuss this subject with.
First of all, the judges in this situation didn't CHANGE the law.
They reviewed Prop 22 for Constitutional scrutiny. And they DIDN'T find any legitimate or compelling reason to uphold Prop.22

The people before the court, in the case of these couples had evidence and clear understanding of their duties to the established laws on marriage and family and their intents and purposes.
An adult who wants to marry a pet, or child doesn't have a compelling reason to. There are NO laws being written to support that, and no one before the court arguing for it.
Constitutional muster includes PROTECTION of rights to individuals. Which includes children.
And it's in this legitimate conscious of child protection, no consent or presumption of marriage will extend to someone under aged.

the CASC didn't make their decision arbitrarily or outside of their powers.
And virtually ALL civil and human rights concerning suspect classes (those treated traditionally with prejudice) required court intervention, NOT public vote.
You are SO dumb. Go back to school and learn something about the history of civil rights and suspect classes in this country.

Du
go ahead du,,, keep giving your bigoted remarks against pedophiles and bestials. I'm sure they just love how YOU talk down to them and concentrate on thier particular sexual preferences.

Apparently Gays are farther along in societies acceptance level than pedophiles or bestials and for this DU takes up the opportunity to pick on the weaker group. (mighty big of you DU,, pickin on the weaker of the sexual rights groups),,, I'll be you feel really tough ehhhh.

Do you think pedophiles LIKE being compared to gays? NO,, I'm guessing they view sex with the same gender as unappealing.

Do you think pedophiles LIKE being compared to the PROCESS of GAYS receiving RIGHTS? HMMMMMM YEP

Age of consent is no more of a barrier than sodomy or marriage were.

Future's so bright,,, gotta wear shades

Du
du still thinks that societies laws on the age of consent can't be changed. SHHHHHHHHH nobody say otherwise ,,, he might kill himself to learn the truth.

And hey,,,, nobody is currently fighting for the pedophile or bestial rights in court TODAY so that makes our current push for gay rights OK...
SHHHHHH don't anybody tell DU 30 years ago nobody pushed for GAY rights either,, following protocal that gives pedophiles and bestials about 30 more years before they get THIER rights.

Your right du,,, nobody is pushin thier rights pedophile and bestials NOW,,,, just like nobody was pushin GAY rights then,,,, just have a little patience.

Your comments on court intervention for suspect classes is just the opinion of the judges during that TIME FRAME in history.

Look up the DRED SCOTT case where JUDGES determined that a BLACK slave in the NORTH was indeed a SLAVE. (i'm sure this was what you meant by judicial protection) HAHAHAHAHA

Judges should NEVER be the final decision on societies moral decisions.

A society is only as good as the majority of it's citizens. NOT a vocal minority that REALLY REALLY wants thier way.....

Role of Courts
Ms. Gallagher appears not to understand the role that courts are supposed to play in the American legal system. Because "more than 4 million Californians" voted in favor of Prop. 22 does not mean that it is constitutional. The courts are there for exactly this purpose - to prevent the tyrany of the majority. Discriminatory laws from earlier eras were all approved by majority votes, whether by the legislature or by popular vote. That did not make them constitutional. It took the courage of judges taking unpopular positions to strike these laws down. The courts have again performed this function in striking down Prop. 22. It's not an outrage - it's the courts doing their job.

Role of Courts
Ms. Gallagher appears not to understand the role that courts are supposed to play in the American legal system. Because "more than 4 million Californians" voted in favor of Prop. 22 does not mean that it is constitutional. The courts are there for exactly this purpose - to prevent the tyrany of the majority. Discriminatory laws from earlier eras were all approved by majority votes, whether by the legislature or by popular vote. That did not make them constitutional. It took the courage of judges taking unpopular positions to strike these laws down. The courts have again performed this function in striking down Prop. 22. It's not an outrage - it's the courts doing their job.

It is obvious that the only thing

that will settle this issue is an amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Jesus said

marriage is between a man and a woman. That settles the question.

craigseattle
Will you still describe the courts as COURAGOUS when they also give rights to pedophiles by changing the law on consent or age of adult?

Or is it only couragous when it is deemed a constitutional right by the judges for something YOU approve of?

On the other hand maybe you do feel that pedophiles and bestials have RIGHTS and by bypassing the legislative process and giving it to judges you can also get thier RIGHTS recognized too.

Good for the goose is good for the gander right?


craigseattle
in 30 years the courts will need exactly as much COURAGE to pass pedophile marriage as they have today on gay marriage. NONE

in 30 years the courts will HAVE exactly as much PRECEDENCE to pass pedophile marriage from gay marriage. ALL

bigots
i am sick and tired of all the BIGOTS on this thread who continually voice a negative view towards pedophiles and bestials. They keep harping upon some happy sex between individuals of the same gender while denigrating that of young citizens and pets with rights.

All you who fail to see the great progress that pedophiles and bestials can and will make in gaining rights (following gay rights precedent) are small minded bigots.

Do you not understand that pedophiles and bestials DON'T want to be compared to gays sexually (they are attracted to different RIGHTS groups) they do however, want the SAME rights that gays get.

Why is it fair for a gay to get married by changing laws SODOMY, MARRIAGE? But not for a pedophile AGE of CONSENT, MARRIAGE?

Where is the justice in that? Not to mention, polygamy, necrophylias, bestials, incest,,, etc.....

If we are going to open this marriage thing to gays,,,, let us open it ALL the way for all the different groups rights. Why are the gays so special that they are the only one's getting this treatment?

GAY MARRIAGE
DON'T WANT IT, DON'T NEED IT,FORGET IT!
ELVIS

eddie too
Amen to your post! Jesus, in His Divine Mercy, keeps giving us time and calling us to change our hearts and turn to Him and be saved. The devil has so little time left--that is why he laughs at all those poor souls who have been duped by him. He doesn't even bother with their consciences anymore because he has managed to do away with them with words like "tolerance" and "diversity." While we have breath within us, we still have time to repent and be saved. After that, we have judged ourselves by the way we keep His laws or ignore them.

A Constitutional Admendent


CraigSeattle Location: WA

Date: May 21, 2008 - 5:04 PM EST
Role of Courts
-===========

How wrong can you be. It is the duty of the courts to make sure a law follows the Constitution. If the public has passed an initiative that is now a part of the Constitution, it is legal, and no Court should be able to overrule a Constitutional admendent.

Would you like to see the Bill of Rights in the US Constitution overruled by an Obama court, just because they decide they want to change it?

The California Court overruled a Constitutional Admendent, a part of the Constitution, not just a law passed by the Legislature.

Find a new word
Words have meaning, and different words describe items or actions that are similar, but different.

They have already screwed up the usage of words like Qu*er and Gay, now go find your own word for two homosexuals who are committed to each other, love each other, and have performed a ceremony to advertise that union.

For example the word “Gay” is not longer useful in polite conversation between normal people, by that I mean people who do not have a birth defect.

Those new words would also apply to any two or more people of whatever sex or relationship, who wish to live together, or at least be in constant association with each other, including the right to control healthcare, and inherit goods when death occurs, and other such things.

The dictionary says the following, so get your own words, and leave these alone.

Marriage: the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife

Husband: a man joined in marriage to a woman

Wife: a woman joined in marriage to a man

Seventy years ago I first heard the joke that if you call a dogs tail a leg, how many legs does it have? Answer 4.

In the same vein, if two men say they are married to each other, do they have a marriage? Answer No.

Two families pay money each month to live in a house, is it the same? No, one pays rent, the other pays a mortgage.

Two wheeled vehicles are going down the street, are they the same? No, one is a bike, the other a motorcycle.

Two multi-wheeled vehicles are going down the street, are they the same? No, one is a car, the other is a truck.

If a man and a woman are married to each other, do you have a marriage? Yes, of course.

du, ooohhh, it hurts
du, du, you are assassinating me with this kind of remark: "Okay, this is no fun at all. Sick people like Scooter in UT and Luis and AliveinHim are handicapped when it comes to making cogent and worthwhile statements."

Please tell me what is more cogent, more worthwhile than this: "homosexuals are sterile"? or "homosexuality is sterile"? or "that says all that needs to be said about the validity of homosexuals and homosexuality"?

du, homosexuals are sterile
du writes: "Gay people rightfully should be offended at their love for their children and each other being compared to all of the above pathologies."

du, du, homosexuals are sterile, and that means they can't have children. If one or two of them have children, like celtic, they are whiners who went to elitist, lib/lefty/homosexualist judges who they knew were libs/lefties/homosexualists and wore them down, or, what is more likely, the judges wanted to make a name for themselves in the history books. That is an artificial concession to the victim class which libs/lefties/homosexualists created for their ends, pun intended.

du, normal, decent people reject...
du says: "It's YOU who is the liability here, scooter and Luis if you think your ideas and beliefs are legitimate for the rest of society to harbor. And they don't really. At least I hope so."
_______________________________

Your hoping is in vain: Normal, decent people reject the homosexual plan to subvert, to pervert the institutions that contributed to making this the greatest nation in the history of man. BUT YOU KNEW THAT.

du, you are trying too, too hard
Luis, get some help
You're a sick, SICK individual. And I don't need an anatomy lesson. Heterosexuals just as deliberately make themselves permanently (vasectomy, tubal ligation), or temporarily sterile and are still viable, legitimate and productive members of society.
For millions, babies are the goal to have sex.
Take yourself to a shrink. You cannot function here with any normal ability to debate.
You're a menace and a liability yourself.
Get. Help. Now.
__________________________________

If I had any more help, we'd already be done in fixing the homosexual problem. I'd love to have more help, and, in fact, every day we are getting that additional help.

As to my health, it is excellent, morally, spiritually, emotionally, physically. Couldn't be better, it simply couldn't.

But, there you are, with your 99 cent crystal ball trying to psychoanalyze people over the internet: typical desperate lib/lefty/homosexual/homosexualist.

It is one thing for a normal person to decide that he or she shouldn't be able to have babies, and continue having sex, but it is another for 'male' homosexuals to deposit their sperm in the arse of other 'male' homosexuals, or the other way around; or a 'female' homosexual to use an eggbeater in the vagina of another 'female' homosexual. You say that you don't need an anatomy lessor, but I don't know if you are correct: There are no ovaries in the arse of a 'male' homosexual and eggbeaters do not produce sperm--in fact, these homosexual practices are what make homosexuals so laughed at, the butt, pun intended, of so many jokes, this is what make homosexuals so pathetic.

Brilliant!
The court's decision is a great step forward for equal rights and protections for all people.

Gallagher cites European law, the UN and Canadian law to make her argument against the California Supreme court ruling which, in fact, is based solely on the California state constitution.

What an idiot!

And just like when liberals cited international and foreign law to argue against invading Iraq, the right-wing homophobes all lined up to reject her argument.

Or maybe not.

Then she throws in polygamy as though there's no distinction between a partnership between TWO people and multiple people and all you bigots go along without recognizing the faulty logic (or more likely ignoring it because they just hate gays).

Then she tries to propose that religions will fall victim discrimination lawsuits as though it's not well established case law that religions can discriminate.

Replace the words "same sex" with "mixed race" and the hatred and willingness to discriminate becomes obvious. Religious fanatics are whacked out, hateful, discriminatory freaks.

A recent poll shows 73% support and 27% oppose the decision. Maybe this is the same 27% who still believe the earth is flat.

Some perspective
(Posted previously in another thread, but seems appropriate here too. - P.D.)

In 1964, Californians by a 2-1 vote passed a constitutional amendment that allowed racial discrimination in housing. It was overturned first by the California Supreme Court and then by the US Supreme Court as a violation of the 14th Amendment.

Until the US Supreme Court’s 1967 ruling in the case of Loving v. Virginia, which struck down anti-miscegenation laws, it was illegal for white people and black people to marry one another in 16 states.

In the early 1970s, a series of Supreme Court decisions abolished most, if not all, of the common-law disabilities of bastardy, as being violations of the equal-protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

So, we outgrow rules that have been around for centuries and the fact that a majority of the people in some state think it is OK to discriminate against another group is often irrelevant because we have a system that provides for both majority rule AND the protection of minority rights.

To me the gay marriage issue boils down to whether you believe homosexuality is nature or nuture. If it's inherent, as most research in the past few decades has suggested, then gay rights should be protected as are those of blacks, women, etc. - cases where people are being discriminated against in situations where they have no control. If, however, you think, that homosexuality is a choice, then gay marriage can be prohibited just as we prohibit polygamy and marriage with minors - a situation we're seeing played out in Texas.

scooter
It is that same silly argument that makes conservatives look like reactionary fools. Raising the specter of pedophilia and bestiality actually makes the gay couples look reasonable in their demands. The struggle to keep marriage for heteros is going to succeed only if we remain more reasonable than the opposition.

Folks: This article is not about the generic qualities of same sex marriage. It is about the CA court ruling repressing religious liberties. I say that Gallagher did not make a convincing case.

Case for Marriage
The United States of America has been the best and most successful civilization in recorded history because it lived to christian standards and protected christian principles and because it formed a multicultural beginning into something all could live with. It required common sense and decency towards all. And the choice and common decency worked for the majority of people and the country prospered to where it became a model for the world. Every country in the world has benefitted from the examples of caring and tolerence that has been an American ideal. Every country in the world has taken good ideas in government. society and education from America, either by it's laws or by allowing American Aid societies to go into their countries and help to raise the standard of living and the expectations of the populace.
However, after the second world war there was a shift in America itself. As the post-war economy boomed and 'stuff' that hadn't been available during the war years became more and more easily available American society as a whole went through a shift from 'for the good of all' to the 'good of one'. But who was to decide 'which one' was the 'right one'? So instead of being united for the common good we have been divided by the 'special interest' groups within. "United we stand, Divided we fall" has never had greater meaning for the American people. GOD bless America...please!

Mike r, admirer of lib/lefty judges
Cruzie Reynoso, late of the CA SC
Mike r admires Cruzie Reynoso, late of the California Supreme Court

Mike r: further on Cruz Reynoso

Cruz Reynoso's Medal of Freedom (awarded by who?, Carter? that makes the medal a joke), his UC Davis medal, his legal acuity, his impartiality, all his sterling qualities DID NOT PREVENT California citizens from chasing his filthy lib/lefty/homosexual/homosexualist a$$ out of town, along with Rosie Bird filthy a$$--what? she hadn't won any medals? Where are those two great, those two wonderful people today? Flipping hamburgers at Erick and Ikea's Great Food in Sumter, SC? Or are they locker attendants at Erick and Ikea's Hollywood Golf Club and Bath House? Or are they professors of law at the Analsexisfine University of Law at the corner of Skidrow Av and Boyprostitute St in San Fransicko?

Yes, Cruzie Reynoso, ex California Supreme Court Justice: nice man, won many medals, but a stooge for the libs/lefties/homosexuals/homosexulists--it done him in.

The four judges who ruptured their guts forcing the recent decision will also be similarly rewarded, and handsomely. Then Cruzie and those judges can exchange notes on their respective cases.

Mike r, admirer of lib/lefty judges
Cruzie Reynoso, late of the CA SC
Mike r admires Cruzie Reynoso, late of the California Supreme Court

Mike r: further on Cruz Reynoso

Cruz Reynoso's Medal of Freedom (awarded by who?, Carter? that makes the medal a joke), his UC Davis medal, his legal acuity, his impartiality, all his sterling qualities DID NOT PREVENT California citizens from chasing his filthy lib/lefty/homosexual/homosexualist a$$ out of town, along with Rosie Bird filthy a$$--what? she hadn't won any medals? Where are those two great, those two wonderful people today? Flipping hamburgers at Erick and Ikea's Great Food in Sumter, SC? Or are they locker attendants at Erick and Ikea's Hollywood Golf Club and Bath House? Or are they professors of law at the Analsexisfine University of Law at the corner of Skidrow Av and Boyprostitute St in San Fransicko?

Yes, Cruzie Reynoso, ex California Supreme Court Justice: nice man, won many medals, but a stooge for the libs/lefties/homosexuals/homosexulists--it done him in.

The four judges who ruptured their guts forcing the recent decision will also be similarly rewarded, and handsomely. Then Cruzie and those judges can exchange notes on their respective cases.

Dealing with God's impertinence
Gays have been around for a long, long time. And if you believe in God, then you must also believe that God created every single gay person who ever existed. And you must also agree that God continues to make the same mistake day-in-day-out millenium after millenium, because there never seems to be a shortage of gay people. Apparently God is really screwing up by not behaving consistently what his present-day followers say he believes. God's impertinence has forced the proverbial hand of his followers. Now it's up to them to police the mess God created. Obviously the first step to addressing God's hypocrisy is to make it very clear to everyone that God gets really pissed off when the gay people he creates act like gay people. The next step is to deny gay people the same civil rights that heterosexual couples are granted by entering into civil marriage contract. That should be good for starters.

There is more to this than we realize...
Long ago, a old and wise king thought that it might be a good idea to be governed by judges instead of kings. He said, "It is not common that the voice of the people desires anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall you observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people. If the time comes that the voice of the people does choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you."

All through the history of the world there are examples of societies, empires and nations that have disintegrated because they could not discipline themselves. They sought to satisfy themselves in ever increasing appetites until they imploded. Look around and see the demise that is happening right here with us. The CA mess (and others like it) is just a symptom of something that is eroding this country's strength.

Our Founding Fathers knew this nation had an ally in Heaven and respected that - protected it. Not so anymore. The "wrong" have sought to overturn the "right" and make it look "good" and attempt to crucify any who oppose.

It has been observed that "Those who will not discipline themselves will have it thrust upon them from outside."

For any of this to make any sense or have any value, you need to believe that there is a God. The afflictions of life are for our experience - and yes, same-sex attraction is an affliction if you look at it through His eyes. If you measure your choices in the face of affliction with His judgment, choices become clear. If you play by His rules, it will work out - always has.

homosexuals
are created, not born. God doesn't make junk. And homosexuals acts are pure junk created and encouraged by the devil.

Tradition
Maggie says:

"Polygamy anyone?"

I believe that polygamy *is* rooted is Scripture and that what we are talking about here is the historical trajectory towards equality between spouses within a marriage. Polygamy belongs to the traditionalists.

California has its own traditions of groundbreaking innovations that have helped to make this country what it is. If it weren't for that tradition, we would not be commenting on electronically distributed media, would we.

Marriage equality is the future of marriage. I don't think that David Blankenhorn would disagree, ok, maybe a little, but he'll come around.


truetolife
Perhaps your mind can only grasp what is simple and uncomplicated. Your ability to expand on the discussion is seriously limited and what you know, understand or have experienced regarding gay people is equally limited and TOO simplistic.

And the reality of gay lives in the entire world aren't within your ability to comment realistically or with reason and logic-let alone the LEGACY of fairness and equality in this country.

You're not living in a theocracy dear. And lucky for you and lucky for me and hopefully, more and more lucky for gay people in America.
Until you understand and remember that we have NEVER stood still on the subject of remanding people of suspect classes to 'traditional' forms of social life, you're not too qualified to speak on gay life.

And that is precisely why our laws cannot be written to discriminate based on belief and religious animus.
You hate it being mentioned what horrible injustices the Church has committed in the RECENT past.
Tough.
It's another part of the reality or truth you can't handle.
Arguing with gay people on it being a choice, is like you arguing that being left handed or being artistic is a choice.
Anyone that does that, doesn't look good or right, just prejudiced and ignorant.
You have a dictionary? The definitions for those words will show you, it's not MY definition, but that of a well respected OTHER kind of book.

devastating loss
I have just suffered a profound loss. And the lack of consistency in the way religious belief can and does progress with human development in social areas is the reason why religious belief alone cannot be trusted. It requires checks and balances as well. And THAT'S what this country was founded on.
The root cause of this loss is consistent with irrational prejudice. And gay people HAVE been around since before yours or anyone else's religion was established. Social integration and FULL extension of basic human protections has proven over and over again how wrong maintaining the prejudice you support was NEVER workable and has been a liability before.
Our race as people moves...the writers of the Bible had some basics that I agree with, but I see violated time and time again almost exclusively against gay people and THAT is what I have called you and Rich D on, and time and time again...you ran behind some other religious pronouncement, totally forgetting that our social history in America requires allowing certain actions to also prove the issue one way or the other BECAUSE of the distinction of the minority in question.

Heterosexuals ARBITRARILY decided gay people were bad, dysfunctional and destructive, and regardless of when that's bee proven wrong, you still mention characteristics also true for heterosexuals, for which THEY are not judged regarding something as basic as marrying, children and other social structures.
The rules are clear for YOU TOO.
But somehow you slip right away from explaning why YOU can't keep to your OWN.

as usual, the old victim ploy


"Heterosexuals ARBITRARILY decided gay people were bad, dysfunctional and destructive, and regardless of when that's bee proven wrong,"

Can you name a single heterosexual who demoted a gay man to "Bad"--? Yeah-- there's no particular man who ever said you were bad. The acts of sodomy; buggery lascivious behavior in a same-sex act; and depravity are bad. If you don't indulge in them, you are GOOD.

When your mother married your father, she was GOOD. He was GOOD. You were brought forth from that GOOD union, a good boy/girl. All subsequent evil you may have done makes you bad; unless you repent. Reject evil and be GOOD. Gays can reject their evil impulses. I'm sure many do.


dreadnaught
Besides the reference to me as if I am also gay, that shows that you don't remember what I've said about my own background.
However, YOU are one heterosexual, and virtually every single one who is opposed not only to marriage for gay couples, but gay PEOPLE in general.
And your own descriptions of what you assume happens sexually between gay people ALSO happens between heterosexual couples.
And the participation in ordinary life OUTSIDE of that is what doesn't disqualify ANY human being FROM that participation in OTHER aspects of social and professional function.
What you're doing is assuming something that can only be determined by peeking into bedrooms.
You have NO idea what your heterosexual neighbors are doing any more than you do your gay neighbors.

You have no idea if a heterosexual or opposite sex couple is GOOD just by marrying that way.
And assuming they are is the very dangerous prejudice that cannot make Constitutional law.
INDIVIDUAL freedom and protections enhance whether or not a person can conduct themselves in what is publicly agreed on. And gay people are equally as CAPABLE. And that is the point of equality and equal treatment under the law.
All you're doing is rationalizing, but not JUSTIFYING.
Get a dictionary please, you're command of English is seriously lacking.

truetolife, et al
As a woman, and despite your obvious religious attachment, you wouldn't want to be the property of your husband and forced to obey him. You wouldn't want your daughters to be treated that way either. Nor would you want to have their husbands rape them, or assume entitlement of additional wives against their consent.
The evolution of marriage has been MORE egalitarian towards women and those who do not share the same backgrounds or status.
Your religious life IS a choice. You or anyone else asserting that gay people choose to be gay is PREJUDICED. You're in no place to argue or challenge that.
And religious freedom DOES have limits when it infringes on another's choices and protections in the law. Go live in a theocracy, don't live here and then try and force the government to favor YOUR choice in religion. That just shows you're INCONSISTENT when it comes to how YOU could be treated.
I already can tell you don't REALLY want to wait for God's judement, you're living in the meantime too. The laws of man are what matters NOW.
Get REAL, or don't bother to try and argue a point you can't even be consistent about.

Credibility?
Oh, Maggie, where is your credibility?

You're a bought-and-paid-for mouthpiece for the Bushies.

Anyone who believes one word from this woman is very foolish.
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