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Wednesday, March 21, 2007
Maggie Gallagher :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Future of Marriage
by Maggie Gallagher
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"For sheer cultural illiteracy and intellectual vacuity, nothing can top the debate over the meaning of marriage taking place in the United States of America in the early years of the 21st century." So says David Blankenhorn in his striking new book, "The Future of Marriage", and he should know.

For 20 years, David Blankenhorn has been at the forefront of our national conversation about marriage. His first book, "Fatherless America", named a new problem: When adults embrace for themselves the right to choose any family form they want, children lose their fathers.

"The Future of Marriage" can be read as a cry of frustration at how gay marriage has hijacked the marriage debate. (Full disclosure: David was my boss for a decade.) Gay marriage appears to make even very smart people pretty stupid about marriage itself. In a court brief recently, 30 professors of history and family law told judges that marriages are "committed, interdependent partnerships between consenting adults". Gee, how does that definition differ from, say, a law firm? Or a co-op, for that matter?

Love, you say?

"I am not an unusually gregarious person", writes Blankenhorn, "but I have 'expressed love' to quite a few people in my life. I am involved in a number of mutually supportive relationships, many of which, I am sure, enhance social stability. But none of this information tells you to whom I am married or why."

What gets left out of this discussion? Sex, says Blankenhorn, for one thing. The striking thing about human beings, from a biological point of view, is how preoccupied we are with sex. Eros is not necessary for making babies. On the whole, nature has disfavored it as a reproductive strategy. Chimps mate promiscuously, but only when a female signals her fertility. Unlike other female mammals, women conceal rather than advertise ovulation.

"This biological innovation had radical social consequence", writes Blankenhorn. "These sexy biological innovations" are "fundamentally about creating the couple that will raise the child."

"To survive, every human culture must find ways to attach and reinforce human erotic yearnings to the double-bonding process: the man and woman to each other, the man and woman to their child. Marriage has a special status because performing this task is urgently necessary to the entire society, and not just the man and woman who do it."

The same-sex marriage debate tends to deconstruct marriage out of existence: Marriage turns out not to be anything in particular, just a word for two people in some kind of close relationship seeking something called "benefits" from government.

Certainly it can no longer be the one thing it has always been: society's special acknowledgment that channeling men and women's erotic yearnings for each other -- for intimacy, closeness, sexual desire, companionship, economic support and children -- is necessary, not only for the couple but for the whole society. To get to gay marriage, this is the idea that must go.

And indeed in the final chapter, Blankenhorn offers new evidence on how hard it is for the same society to endorse gay marriage and to retain a simple concept like "people who want children ought to be married." We cannot prove, he says, that gay marriage causes this decline; all we can show is that around the world, the two ideas stand or fall together.

The more you conceptualize marriage as about adults and our rights, the more sense same-sex marriage makes. The more you see marriage as a necessary social institution for bringing men and women together to make and raise the next generation, the less sense gay marriage makes.

The really big question, Blankenhorn points out, is not gay marriage per se, but whether we can and will reconstruct marriage as the crucial institution that connects Eros and generativity. Anyone interested in that question needs to read this book.

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About The Author

Maggie Gallagher is a nationally syndicated columnist, a leading voice in the new marriage movement and co-author of The Case for Marriage: Why Married People Are Happier, Healthier, and Better Off Financially.

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you know
In some ways, this article can be used to endorse gay marriage.
Consider the statement: “The same-sex marriage debate tends to deconstruct marriage out of existence: Marriage turns out not to be anything in particular, just a word for two people in some kind of close relationship seeking something called "benefits" from government”.

This statement applies equally to straight marriages as well as gay ones. Therefore, it no more describes the gay marriage movement then might describe Maggie’s marriage. It is my understanding that gays want to marry for the same reason straights do. Subsequently, Maggie’s entire argument supports gay marriage rather than opposes it.

I truly believe that married people are happier, healthier and better off financially. Why should I deny that to others simply because they are gay?

Mike...
I think you missed her point. It wasn't that marriage makes you happier, healthier, and better off financially, although those are certainly nice fringe benefits. It's that marriage is vital to ensuring that children have a father AND mother, not one or the other or two of one and none of the other. It is vital for the well-being of children to have a mother and father raising them together. Following your argument (which is the point she was making), there's no reason for society to push for this state of affairs...any old arrangement is just fine. You may disagree with her assessment, but I think she quite clearly stated her case that gay marriage is not conducive to two-parent, mother and father, families and that society will pay a price as a result.

Y'all...
...are both studiously ignoring what Ms. Gallagher is trying to say. Namely, children need a mother and a father, marriage is how we ensure that happens, and society is heading for trouble if we trivialize marriage to the point that family arrangements don't matter anymore. Religion has nothing to do with it.

MikeR and Tamalak...
...seem to be missing Ms. Gallagher's point.

Marriage is not so much for the benefit of the two spouses, but for the child and for society as a whole. That's why the whole institution exists--to help guarantee that the children have a stable home, with a mother figure and a father figure, and adequate financial support.

Since society has a compelling interest in the nature of marriage, society as a whole must determine what it will be. In other words, it IS our business. And that's why marriage is not just a religious institution, but a civil institution as well.

Overlooked
Could someone please explain why it isn't permissable for our culture to deem homosexual behavior as immoral? Why can't we simply say we don't want homosexual marriage without having to do a song and dance to justify our position?

We don't allow polygamous marriage for moral reasons. We limit marriage to certain ages for moral reasons. We don't allow incestuous marriages for moral reasons. There are all kinds of behaviors we reject as a society based on the moral tolerance of the majority, and I wonder when we lost sight of this fact?

I do know that the majority dictates the moral acceptability of all kinds of behavior. For some reason, homosexuality has managed to escape this paradigm and has become a behavior whose morality we are not allowed to question.

If homosexuals want society to embrace their behavior as moral, then they should certainly make their case, but to force it upon us as an inherent legal right is disingenuous and totally ignores the reality that our society has always put limits on behavior. Homosexual marriage should receive no preferential treatment.

100 ways to play "Scapegoat the Gays"
*sigh*

Here we are with another townhall column Scapegoating gays to try and divert attention from tha absolute failures of the right-wing movement in this country.

I mean, come on, people - do you really beleive that the union between two people of the same sex who love each other will tear down the very fabric of our society. Are straight marriages so utterly vulnerable that even the very "idea" of gay marriage poses a threat to them? Do you really believe that straight people will decline to partner up and procreate because of gay partnerships? Are straight people so easily manipulated that idea of gay marriage can change your sexuality and desire to procreate?

If you answered yes to any of the above questions, than you are a glip and sheltered human being who obviously does not know any gay people and has a very narrow world veiw.

If gay people are such a tiny and insignificant minority, as many of you are quick to point out when we whine about our pesky "rights" - then why oh WHY are we such a threat to your natural desire to marry and make babies?

Short answer - we aren't and you all kow it.. We are simply your scapegoats.

I would love for ONE person here to give me ONE example of how they witnesses first-hand a gay marriage, partnership, civil union, ect having a negetive or detrimental impact on their own marriage or society as a whole. Just one - and I'm not talking about closeted gay men marrying poor, unknowing straight women. That is a horrible product of homophobia and fear.

I'm talking about the partnership between two adult gay men or women. Someone please tell me how this has had a personal detrimental impact on you, your family and society. (and please, save the scripture for Sunday Mass)

Straight people will always be the vast majoirty on the planet - and if your desire to partner, marry and procreate was so fragile that gay people could destroy it, then humans would have been doomed centuries ago.

I have bore witness to the destruction of countless straight unions and marriages - ruined lives and forgotten children - we see examples of it every single day and it has NOTHING to do with gay people or their desire to partner into loving, committed relationships. Anyone who values marriage, monogomy and the beauty of two souls bonding should (and would) endorse gay marriages or at the very least Civil Unions.

Even Rudy Gulianni agrees with that one.

Bottom line - clean up your own mess and quit blaming the gays for your failed relationships. You don't see us blaming you for ours...

Again, we are scapegoats, and it's a tactic that is becoming increasingly transparent.

Allen, MellorSJ
Homosexuals who demand the same rights as married couples will not destroy the well-established concept of men marrying women. In the great majority of these unions, children are born. They are the next generation.

Most heterosexual men and women view marriage as the biggest decision they have so far made. It's serious business...a committed relationship to someone of the opposite sex, and having a child or children together provides them a natural joy to anticipate.

When two people of the same sex insist that their partnership is no different that the above, their words and actions work towards devaluing the true state of marriage.

The majority of hetersexuals, those who clearly read the signs on the wall, have no tolerance for anyone attempting to devalue the honored state of marriage.

No one here has scapegoated homosexuals. We have the right to state and defend our beliefs. I don't need to resort to playing the "victim game". Nor should you.

Mellor, you are coming off as "silly". Please. Grow up so that you can see the bigger picture.

MellorSJ
Having fun? Me, too! You're pegged. Try this on for size. Does this fit? A fresh-mouthed, smart-a**ed know-it-all who gets kicks from posting at conservative forums.

The Townhall columnists here have been blessed with common sense and a high degree of intelligence. For the most part, I and others share their thinking. Sometimes we don't, and that's ok, too. Sadly, you just don't get it.

You appear to have embraced the liberal thinking. Again, have fun interjecting your leftist ideals. The only ones agreeing with you are fellow leftists. That has to stoke your fires and keep you going!

Harmony
wrote
"Homosexuals who demand the same rights as married couples will not destroy the well-established concept of men marrying women. In the great majority of these unions, children are born. They are the next generation.
"
True

"Most heterosexual men and women view marriage as the biggest decision they have so far made."

I wish this were more true.

"It's serious business...a committed relationship to someone of the opposite sex, and having a child or children together provides them a natural joy to anticipate"

I wish more straight couples would take child rearing as seriously as you think they do. Also, there is nothing any more unatural about a Lesbian woman's love for her child than a straight woman who conceived by artificial insemination or a couple who adopted.

"When two people of the same sex insist that their partnership is no different that the above, their words and actions work towards devaluing the true state of marriage.
"

HOW?????? Explain this to me, please? How is Mellisa Etherige's family any less valid or true than Brittany Spears?? Brittany and Kevin are more valuable by default? Better Parents? Role Models?

"The majority of heterosexuals, those who clearly read the signs on the wall, have no tolerance for anyone attempting to devalue the honored state of marriage.
"

Okay, I'm not trying to be smug because this is a serious discussion, but this is simply laughable to me. Please make repeat this statement repeat this statement after reading the divorce statistics in this country, the child abuse rates in this country, and the spousal abuse statistics in this country - then talk to me about gay's "devaluing the honored state of marriage"

You folks are doing that with ZERO help from us, so please spare me your righteous indignation.

Talk about playing the victim? Your relationships are in danger of being "devalued" by gays, THAT's what this is all about?

Again, this is typical gay scapegoating.




How about this...

Take the marriage issue out of the hands of a few elitist judges and law makers and put it in the hands of the people - put the issue on the ballot. If the gays win, majority rules and we have a new version of an old tradition. Otherwise, they shut up.

MellorSJ made a comment on an earlier
post to the effect that homosexuality is a privacy issue. I have to agree so my advice is to keep it private. If it stays behind closed doors it is private. If you open the door and bring it out it becomes public and fair game for condemnation. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen and go back into the closet.

Marriage IS at stake
Allen writes:
"I mean, come on, people - do you really beleive that the union between two people of the same sex who love each other will tear down the very fabric of our society. "

All you have to do is look at countries where same sex unions and marriage have been legal for some time and view the consequences to straight marriage. If you look at Scandanavia, where this abomination has been legal since the late 80's to mid 90's, you will see that out of wedlock births and cohabitation have skyrocketed. When marriage is trivialized by someone saying "we want it too", where is the line drawn? Consenting adults will want to have 2 men and a women or 3 women and a man, or whatever? Anything wrong with that in your mind? It certainly is NOT marriage.

Homosexuality is not immoral, but homosexual acts are. Just like cheating on your spouse, being tempted to do it isn't immoral, it is the act.

If it feels good, do it?
"To survive, every human culture must find ways to attach and reinforce human erotic yearnings to the double-bonding process: the man and woman to each other, the man and woman to their child. Marriage has a special status because performing this task is urgently necessary to the entire society, and not just the man and woman who do it."

Amen, I am afraid that my children's generation may lose it altogether.

The Saved Sailor said it best:

"All you have to do is look at countries where same sex unions and marriage have been legal for some time and view the consequences to straight marriage. If you look at Scandanavia, where this abomination has been legal since the late 80's to mid 90's, you will see that out of wedlock births and cohabitation have skyrocketed. When marriage is trivialized by someone saying "we want it too", where is the line drawn? Consenting adults will want to have 2 men and a women or 3 women and a man, or whatever? Anything wrong with that in your mind? It certainly is NOT marriage."


Marriage is for the kids?
If marriage exists only to promote a stable environment for procreation, why are infertile people permitted to marry? Does the fact that infertile people marry somehow disrupt this important purpose of marriage? If not, how does the marriage of other people who are incapable of reproducing disrupt this purpose?

I agree with what others have said here: Marriage is a religious institution, and government should have no part in it. You should get a civil union license from your county clerk, and a marriage certificate from your clergyman.

Finally, regarding Saved Sailor's assertion that people will then want to marry two wives ... well, my flip response to that is, any man who is stupid enough to want two wives deserves what he gets. Perhaps he should have to establish a trust for the legal fees he is sure to incur when the women gang up on him and toss him out on his polygamous behind. But on a more serious note, it is perfectly legal to cohabit as a threesome, and also to have children by multiple partners. It's only illegal if you call both the women with whom you live, and with whom you have children, your wives. Seems silly to me.

Nick Kasoff
http://www.thugreport.com

Allen
The problem with Melissa Ethridge's family is that there is no Dad in it. Does Melissa love the kids who live with her? I'm sure she does, but that does not make up for the fact that these children were knowingly and purposefully brought into the world to be raised without a father. Some will say that it no different than a widow. The difference is that in the widow's situation there is a Dad history, a Dad identity, an idea of Dad that can still make an impact on a growing child. Is the best example you can give for heterosexual marriage Brittany Spears???? Please, grow up, no one is holding her up as a role model for anything. There are plenty of families, both liberal and conservative, that are doing a lousy job. Instead of trying to further destroy intact families, why don't you try to strengthen them?
I will never be convinced that all homosexuals want from gay marriage is "rights" because where were they in the fight to privatize social security??? Nowhere!!! Here was a perfect opportunity to have benefits go to anyone you chose (gay partner, for example)but the silence from the gay community was deafening.

Maggie Gallagher, Philosopher, Historian
and, as usual, wrong.

"In a court brief recently, 30 professors of history and family law told judges that marriages are "committed, interdependent partnerships between consenting adults". Gee, how does that definition differ from, say, a law firm? Or a co-op, for that matter?"

I am sad to break it to you, Madge, but that is what a marriage is - a contract. Flip on the HBO and watch Rome - they actually get how marriage, paternity, and families actually worked in the ancient world. What mattered was claim and legality, not paternity. What would you like to quibble with in the work of Phillipe Aries, John Gillis, Tom Laqueur, and the other historians of family and marriage?

Sorry to break it to you, but companionate marriage, based on love, dates to the 18th century. It only came into its own in the Victorian era. The nuclear family, that conservatives drone on and on about like a broken radio, dates from the mid-20th century. For the great length of human history - even Christia history - family, marriage, etc., was a legal relationship above all, most usually, a legal contract between two men concerning women who rarely had anything to say about.

"For sheer cultural illiteracy and intellectual vacuity, nothing can top the debate over the meaning of marriage taking place in the United States of America in the early years of the 21st century."

Sounds like he's describing y'all.

No
I don’t think I missed the point, especially of the paragraph I quoted. I’ll go as far to say that a father and a mother are the best way to raise children, but in life, we rarely get what’s best. So we should aim for what’s not too bad. Heteros can marry at the drop of a hat by an Elvis impersonator while drunk in Vegas. It seems they can get divorced just as easily. When a child is conceived, there is no guarantee that the mother and/or the father won’t be fraught with shortcomings or even die by chance along the way. I agree that infidelity and wantonness are not desirable so when I come across a same sex couple who want to reject all that and lead a life of faithful love and stability, I can’t argue against that.

As for homosexuality in itself being immoral, I allow that many people may feel that way, but I don’t. Furthermore, I have no intention of letting someone else dictate to me their sense of morality. Nor will I subject myself to the tyranny of the majority. Marriage and family are cornerstones of society. I want more of them, not less. Marriage is not just a word for two people in a close relationship. It is the ultimate joining of two lives. Heteros do not have a monopoly on that.

Here's the point...
Did you hear about the couple, with four children in Germany suing the government because they've had their children (two who are disabled) take away? They're brother and sister and their claim is 'discrimination.' And if you retort...well incest can cause disabilities..their response is, 'well then, are you not going to allow disabled people to get married?'
Like Prager says, when compassion trumps everything else in making public policy, it is horribly detrimental to society.

When you no longer define marriage as what it how it's been defined for the whole of Judeo-Christian's foundation...then it becomes...nothing.

Once you start defining the qualities of the color 'black'..it's no longer black. Once you say it could be 'this' then it can be anything.

You think brothers/sisters 'getting together' is 'yucky?' Well...it was only a generation ago that it felt the same way to suggest men/men or women/women get to be married. You destroy the definition, and there is no longer a definition. And the argument 'well, it's only one man/woman or woman/woman or man/man' is not the end of it.

Can intelligent people get this?

excuse me...
for all the typos..I do know better!

oh phooey..
can I make that point again? Once you REdefine what the qualities of black are...then it's no longer the color 'black.'

Where is the new information on this?
Where/What is the new information, not available 10 years ago, that now says homosexuals should get preferential treatment?

There isn't any new information and it matters not what 100 law professors opine.

Words mean something

The state sanctions and protects traditional marriage primarily to promote the best interests of children to be raised by their biological mothers and fathers. To purposefully or knowingly conceive and launch a child into life with anything less is an extreme act of selfishness and is tantamount to child abuse. Although single-mothers-by-choice are actually a much greater danger to civil society in this regard, harm is also done by homo-couples that choose for one partner to produce a child to be raised by the couple.

Although study after study confirms it (look to the relative outcomes for fatherless children - there's a reason the word bast@rd acquired its negative connotation), we need only look to the core of our most basic instincts to know that children generally crave the love, guidance and life's example that only a mother and a father can best provide. Yes, some traditional parents will not live up to that potential, but the failure of individuals is neither reason nor justification to purposefully create children to be raised without their own natural (married to each other) mothers and fathers.

This common sense concern for society's children is why it will alway be counter to the state's interests to sanction and/or equate homo-unions to marriage. Yes, this issue is indeed about rights - the rights of innocent and otherwise helpless children not to be sacrificed as play doll/pets on the alter of self-serving narcissism.

That stated, I think there is a place for limited domestic partnership law to allow such things as hospital visitation rights, etc. This would probably be good for society because it would likely encourage more homo-couples to build stable, committed, long term relationships. But it would be a grave mistake to go mindlessly further and try to equate homo-unions to traditional marriage.

Think well - see clearly.

- out with the same-sex bathhouse water.

Traditional marriage institutionalizes a natural order that has successfully served mankind throughout civilized human society. To be honest, we know next to nothing about the effects of homo-marriage and same-sex parenting on children. That adoptive children and the children of single motherhood often crave knowledge of and connection to both their natural parents is an established fact.

However, there are no rigorous, large-scale studies on the effect of homo-marriage on such couples' children. According to Steven Nock, a leading scholar of marriage at the University of Virginia, every study on this question "contained at least one fatal flaw" and "not a single one was conducted according to generally accepted standards of scientific research." This was the conclusion (March 2001) of a thorough review of such studies.

The idea that men and women do not have entirely distinctive and equally necessary contributions to make to the rearing of a child is absurd on its face. Without hard evidence to the contrary (and there is none), mainstream American will never be ready to throw children out with the same-sex bathhouse water.

Think well - see clearly.

Marriage is available to all.

All people have equal access to marriage right now. The law is completely blind to the sexual orientation and preferences of the individual.

The state's primary and overriding interest in the institution of marriage is all about the production of civilized children (both in absolute terms and in percentages relative to uncivilized children, i.e. bast@rds and the like). It is also has a strong interest in fostering a social framework that promotes a higher level of responsible social behavior, commitment and community, regardless of children. Promoting long term commitment among homosexual couples would serve this secondary goal, but we must be very careful that we do not do so at the expense of the first goal. That is why something like DPs for homosexual couples (and yet, not normal couples) may make sense. That is also why legalizing homo-marriage never will.

Think well - see clearly. :)

Question Remains
Although ignored, the question remains. Does society have the right to define what it wants to legally condone as moral behavior?

Society legally defines the age you can be married. Society legally defines how many people you can marry. Society legally forbids incest. Yet for some odd reason homosexual marriage advocates claim that society shouldn't be able to decide if homosexual marraige should be legal. They claim their sexual proclivities are above reproach. Why is this?

If homosexual marriage proponents want to come before society and ask for its legal blessing of their sexual behaviors, they should get in line and make their best case. Society does not have to justify its unwillingness to accept homosexual behavior any more than it has to justify any other sexual behaviors that are legally discouraged because they are deemed immoral.

Homosexual marriage proponents should stop trying to assert rights that do not exist and instead explain to those that oppose their behaviors as immoral why they are wrong? Pedophiles, polygamists and incest supporters can do the same. Who knows, maybe you'll convince society that homosexuality is moral and worthy of societal acceptance. Maybe the pedophiles, polygamists and incest supporters will too. Good luck with that.

Society's vested interest in Marriage

Rights are conferred to individuals (not pairs of individuals). All individuals have the same qualified rights regarding choice of marriage partner. Some (but not all) of these qualifiers are number (no polygamy), age, mental competency, familial relationship, and, most pertinently, complementariness of sex/gender. The law actually is blind to the sexual preference of the individual.

With regard to marriage, the state has a vested interest in furthering procreation and encouraging families where children are reared in homes headed by children's biological parents.

The state is entitled to believe that limiting marriage to man-woman couples furthers these goals. This is true because current marriage law does not discriminate on the basis of sex - sexual orientation per se is irrelevant (i.e., it is not a protected class), and homo-marriage is simply not a fundamental right (it has no history or tradition in this country).

The United States Supreme Court correctly found that laws banning inter-racial marriage to be unconstitutional because there was no justification for the racial distinctions (race is a protected class) or for an intrusion into private sexual behavior. In contrast, my state's Defense of Marriage Act was "enacted to codify the common law, to promote procreation, and to encourage stable families." (quoting Washington State Supreme Court Justice Barbara A. Madsen)

However, promoting long term commitment among homosexual couples via special domestic partnerships would help build a social framework that fosters a higher level of responsible social behavior, commitment and community (and would do so without debasing normal marriage).

Think well - see clearly. :)

gallagher an idiot
she thinks the egg laid the chicken.

... a birth defect of sorts.

Homosexuality certainly is natural, but it is not normal. By far (by 96% or so), the norm is heterosexuality. Having an innate attraction to persons of one's own sex is nothing to be ashamed of, but it also certainly is not normal in the sense that the vast majority of people are not that way.

In so much as it statistically leads to a shortened lifespan and generally is a reproductive dead end, homosexuality can be looked upon as a birth defect of sorts (certainly not something I would wish on anyone, but there are much worse things in life).

I have no problem with people forming committed, long term relationships with partners of the same sex. In fact, in so far as it is good for society, I would heartily encourage it - and the many proposed state DP laws may be just about the right level of official encouragement.

But society needs quality replacement citizens, which is really what the institution of marriage is by and large about. It would simply be bending reality to equate a class of relationships that is inherently non procreative to the traditional social institution of marriage. Let same-sex couples think of themselves as "married" if it makes them happy, but they have no right to force the larger community to do so.

Think well - see clearly. :)

A contract between couple and community

Civil marriage (which is a part of most religious marriages) is a mutually beneficial contract made between the state and the man and woman entering into marriage. Society has a vested interest in promoting the creation of high quality replacement members and has no compelling reason to contract with general classes of people that cannot generally deliver their portion of such a bargain.

In exchange for the decades long commitment and sacrifice made to provide the lasting and loving family framework necessary to raise civilized, productive children, society agrees to provide the marriage couple with certain related compensatory benefits. Generally speaking, homo-marriage provides no procreative value to society, so society has no compelling reason to automatically enter into marriage contracts with same sex couples.

There simply is no basis (constitutional or otherwise) for an unqualified legal right to state sanctioned marriage. It is a contract and, like all valid contracts, must provide at least the reasonable expectation of mutual benefit to all parties (i.e., that includes the community).

Think well - see clearly. :)
____________________________

State sanctioned Marriage a mutually beneficial contract made between the state and those entering into marriage.

1) The stability and self perpetuation of society via the fabric of the family and the creation of enough quality children are the raisons d'etre for marriage.

2) Homo-marriage would slightly detract from normal marriage by marginally reducing the resources and funding that would otherwise be available to support normal marriage.

3) Above all, equating homo-marriage to normal marriage would debase the meaning of marriage to normal people, i.e. that true marriage is a long term commitment primarily for the production and benefit of society's children (point 1 above).

4) Generally speaking, since homo-marriage would provide no net benefit to society (especially procreative), society has no compelling reason to automatically enter into marriage contracts with same-sex couples (i.e., there would be no justification for homo-marriage even if it did not harm or detract from traditional marriage).

SlimJim
Yes, society does have the right to define what it wants to legally condone as moral behavior. And yet, society is constantly redefining itself. As thegeist accurately described, the mature of marriage, as defined by society has changed greatly. It is not odd at all that homosexual marriage has come up for debate and moving towards general acceptance. Homosexuality itself is following the same course. Your other questions have all been answered and yet are still repeated because of the negative connotations involved. I will answer briefly:
Pedophilia: children cannot make such grave decisions and can’t sign the contract.
Incest: this is a conflict of interest as such closely related individuals already have an established relationship that takes precedence.
Polygamy: Actually this one is weakest point the flaw is that as more individuals are added to the relationship, the bond gets weakened and no longer remains the strongest level of contractual bonding.

There are much better arguments against homosexual marriage than these. At least you didn’t raise the bestiality one.

Marriage is not about love
The problem with same-sex marriage and its effect on marriages in general is not that two persons with the same sex marry. It is that in order to argument in favour of that kind of marriage you destroy the basis of marriage.

Because let's face it: marriage is not about love. It is about letting children grow up in a stable environment, binding the parents together, etc. Child-Rearing is important to society and therefore society grants rights to the people who marry, because they do something good for all.

If we think marriage is about love and being together, we miss the whole point of the institution and that is where the problem lies with same-sex marriage.

Marriage is as old as society. And if you told the Romans or the Greeks it was about love, they would laugh at you. But they would also laugh at you if you told them marriage is just a contract without relation to child-bearing and family and that therefore homosexuals could marry. That was never contemplated even in Greece where same-sex relations were not that uncommon.

Pandora's Box
I asked my 70 year old gay uncle about what he thought about same sex marriage. His reply was "Sweetie, the great thing about being a gay man when I was young was that we didn't have to GET married!"

He doesn't understand why that the homosexuality of today is celebrated, paraded, discussed and protected, but the new gay generation benefiting from this "social progress" are all so intolerant and angry still. They take for granted how far things have come, based on what my uncle has seen for himself. Try being gay in the 40's and 50's. Talk about repression. He says these kids don't know how lucky they have it. It only can get better, but being a bully gets you nowhere.

IMHO, marriage traditions by our laws of government and religious (insert any religion here) is between a man and a woman. Period. Yes, there are children, tax benefits, insurance benefits, blah blah blah and just because you are heterosexual does not mean each home will be happy and healthy for a child. After all, we are all human. But marriage is between a guy and a gal, hate to break it to you.

I have nothing against a Civil Union, and just like any Bat Mitzvah, Confirmation, Briss, Baptism, aniversary and birthday party, it's perfectly fine to celebrate joy and love for all reasons with your family and your friends.

But when you want Gay Marriage right here and now in a nano second, it would be highly irresponsible, not just for heterosexuals but especially for gays. What I mean is, you thought of all the great reasons why you think you may want gay marriage, but have you thought of the realities later if things weren't turning into the Norman Rockwell picture of family life you hoped for?

Sometimes, love fades, people change, and relationships loose the glue that bound them. Divorce.

It's hard enough for straight couples to go through a divorce, it can take years of red tape and lawyers to sift through it all. It's an angry horrible and unfair process to everyone involved. And that's what Gays will inherit?!

But is our system ready for the fall out of dissolving gay marriages? If it's this much trouble for a straight couple to divorce, do you think it will be any easier for a gay couple to deal with Alimony, Child Support, Primary Property Holders, etc etc etc etc Just fill in the blanks.

I mean, if you want same sex marriage, you at least have to play by the same rules as everyone else and divorce properly to relinquish your rights to any benefits like heteros do.

Are you willing to go that far? Be careful what you wish for. You may find that Civil Unions are just enough for now until you really look at the BIG picture, which I don't think gays have at all. I think they just want more of an agenda and a cross to bear than the sanctity of marriage itself.



Lawyers
The best argument AGAINST gay marriage is that the lawyers support it. It opens up a huge market of couples with large qunatities of disposable income to become litigants in divorce cases.


It may not be the best position, but I almost always adopt the position that is opposed to that adopted by lawyers. It has worked for me so far, and, to keep gay couples from expanding the empire of the litigators, I have to oppose gay marriage.

For that matter, I oppose marriage as a state function. I think marriage is a religious matter of which the state should take no cognizance, and all of the contractual matters currently part and aprcel of marriage should be handled by contracts, rather than by special marital laws. Then again, this would allow gays, first cousins, and groups of more than 2 to enter into marriage-like contracts, and, if they can find the religion that allows it, have a completely non-binding ceremony of marriage, while the state handles nothing but enforcement of the cotnracts drawn up between them.

But no one seems to like my solution.

Typos
Not sure why I capitalized "AGAINST", it certainly doesn't merit it. I was typing an email at the same time, so I likely capitalized in the wrong document.

Also, sorry for all the typos. "Aprcel" for "parcel" and "cotnracts" for "contracts". Should have proofread a bit better.

Try it you might like it
The marriage vows suggest a lifelong committment and marriage used to be just that before no fault divorce laws made it into, try it you might like it.

Brokeback mtn -er, ah Cowboy
What is your point? Yeah, so, repubs have been married numerous times, so have dems. Again, you're pointing this out because...? Put it to you another way, conservatives aren't perfect nor are libs, neither ever will be. I just don't feel that same-sex marriage is the solution to any of our whoes.
Shells - great article. I think those on the pro-same-sex marriage side want so much for their lifestyle to be accepted and thus push for marital recognition but fail to see (or think about) the potential long term picture.


History
does not produce gay marriage in any of the great pagan religions, nations,or cultures of the past, not the Mesopotamians, not the Egyptians, not the Chinese, not the cultures of the Indus Valley, not the peoples of North or Central or South America, and none of them had moral proscriptions deriving from Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. No modern non-people-of- the-Book cultures offer gay marriage: not Buddhist, not Hindu, not Taoism, not Shintoism, not Confucianism, nor any animistic cult or culture.
Gay people can form partnerships, corporations, proprietorships, or any legal union together and bequeathe each other any worldly goods, grant each other powers of attorney, adopt or ignore another's children, but they do not have to be granted marriage that has institutionally been a man-woman contractual arrangement since pre-history.

Yankette
Thank you. I'm glad you understood my thoughts on the subject. I'm not a hater, just a realist. I just happen to believe based on the swarm of the gay marriage movement, it's not about love, it's entitlement. A politcal agenda as well.

By the gays handling this issue the way they have been, already they have minamalized the value of marriage and it's core. I hear nothing about love from them.

They can co-habitate, adopt children, be considered executers of wills for their partners, all the legalities they want are there already. Just marriage is off limits.

It's a life choice they made to be they way they are and are able to live their lifestyle freely, but there are restriction. I am hetero, and divorced, I relinquished my marital perks taxwise and benefit wise when I ended my marriage. I made my choice and I live my lifestyle the way I need to. I just am not entitled to any marital perks anymore because I am single. Tradition states I must marry a man, and not my cat, my best girlfriend, or my brother. I can live with that. It's as simple as that.


shells
Sometimes, love fades, people change, and relationships loose the glue that bound them. Divorce.

It's hard enough for straight couples to go through a divorce, it can take years of red tape and lawyers to sift through it all. It's an angry horrible and unfair process to everyone involved. And that's what Gays will inherit?!

-------------------------------------------

So now the argument is that you are just trying to save us from the pains of divorce? Thanks but no thanks. Also (and this applies to Andrew's post about lawyers as well), if you're in favor of civil unions, then lawyers will be involved in that..I don't think the government or divorce lawyers are primarily concerned with the religious aspect of marriage when it comes to divorce.

Finally, just because gays are better off today than 60 or 70 years ago (which I totally agree with) doesn't mean things couldn't be even better. African-Americans were certainly better off in 1960 than in 1840 but that didn't mean there was no more progress to be mad. And before everyone jumps on me for comparing the two, I realize they are not exactly the same struggles but I do think the comparison is valid in this instance.

Birdman...
...that's no good. In California, we voted years ago on Proposition 22 that marriage was between a man and a woman. It passed with 87% in favor of man/woman only marriage. Yet the liberal courts and the homosexual lobby have been fighting against the will of the people for years now. Legislators introduce bills contrary to what the people voted for.

The homosexual lobby will defy any law, any voter decision if it doesn't fit with their agenda. Majority be damned.

furthermore
Furthermore, contrary to what you might believe, when gay couples split up, it isn't any easier than for straight couples, except that a larger percentage don't have to deal with child custody issues. We still have to deal with the emotional issues of faling out of love or being left and hearbrbroken, we still have to figure out how to split up porperty that is owned together, who gets the apartment or house, how to tell our families who have treated each other's partners as family members for years, etc. Maybe it would add a few more issues such as retirement accounts but it's not like it's a piece of cake now either.

renny
It can also be argued that history never produced any truly free societies either yet we dream and strive for it and it the basis for our country that all men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable right including the pursuit of happiness.

Kath: The same could have been said about any anti-slavery vote take in the early 1800s. It would have been soundly defeated yet the anti-slavery lobby fought against the will of the people for years. The anti-slavery lobby actually did defy any law, any voter decision that didn’t fit with their agenda. Majority be damned.

missing the million dollar question
While the article was well-written, it does not provide the real sink or swim rebuttal of 'gay' marriage.
Who defines the institution, God or man?
If man defines marriage, it is only a matter of time until he or she gets enough popular support for their opinion for it to take the power of law. If God has spoken, then the decision has already been rendered.
We may as well try to re-write the Ten Commandments, "or hide them, as the ACLU wishes to do".
There is, finally, no rational, natural argument that will stand against the pressure of secularists to redefine any and all institutions.

'For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.' Romans 3:23

another for Shells
Shells, you actually do seem reasonable and I appreciate that your thinking about this issue goes beyond the "the bible says so..." argument of many posters.
--------------------------------
Tradition states I must marry a man
--------------------------------
I only want to add that it really is convenient for you that you are attracted to and fall in love with men. I hope it happens for you again. I realize you consider it a lifestyle choice that you got married and then choose to get divorced (which I guess it is) but do you really think your sexual identity behind it that gives you the option of getting married/divorced is a choice that you have made? If not, how is this tradition fair or right?

sacred vow
A sacred vow is a religious oath which supposedly is before God which means you can never break that oath and if you do you are without honor. If someone gives their sacred vows and breaks those vows because the marriage is not going well then they lied and were not sincere when they gave those vows. A person who cannot stick to their word should not get married with sacred vows but in a civil ceremony. I believe that so many people giving sacred vows then breaking them is much more of a moral crisis than Gays wanting to marry as they are about 1% of the population and those of you who claim to be moral and religious and gave sacred vows are liars, are 50% of the population as well as hypocrits and I have no respect for you and also you are phonies. I stayed married to a schizophrenic because I gave sacred vows before a priest and I was not a Catholic not even a Christian but I respected the solemnity of a sacred oath though my parents begged me to divorce and though I suffered greatly. I have my honor. I said in sickness and in health and though it is a horrible unbearable, unlivable nightmare, it is still a sickness. And I say to all you sanctimonious phonies who don't have the slightest inkling of what keeping your word means and keep whining about the threat of Gay marriage that I have no respect for you cowardly lying phonies.

Humans are neither so changeable nor
so malleable that despite many differences in practices and beliefs over vast periods of time that either politics or force of law can impose or overcome psychologies that seem fairly well fixed since the melting of the last ice age. If you look at ancient legal systems like Hammurabi's and Mose's (assuming he was a real person and if not, a representative type for his reflected period) and the Anglo-Saxon's common law, certain of the same laws and practices evidence themselves repeatedly. The communists killed maybe 100's of millions creating the "new man" starting with the failure of the entire system in the former Russian Empire in 1917. As soon as the revolution was relatively in place, by 1919, Lenin promolgated laws banning church marriage, women changing their last names on marriage, incest, promoting the availability of aboriton, homosexuality, the sponsorhips of public nurseries, "pre" schools, and all the accoutrements of "liberated" persons, because the abolition of sexual restrictions is, like the starvation used in some despotisms, a neat way of controlling unweildy populations. The results by the 1920's were less freedom than the abandonment of women, children, probable cannabalism in what was then Mongolia, cholera and typhus epidemics, famine, and starvation. By the early '30s, all the "liberating" legislation had been rescinded, as Stalin and Trotsky were busy advocating the "hearth family"--a stable of the former empire--and looking to the permanency of marriages and families to bring stability to the USSR. The system was ultimately too corrupt to stand, and by 1989, the entire superstructure collapsed. The Nazis claimed a 1000-year Reich that would re-formulate Aryan, "perfect," man, and it didn't last two decades. We could go on through Pot Pol in Cambodia and Castro in Cuba, but my point is human nature is not just clay for social experimenters to fool around with. Marriage, which is likely never a perfect state either, has at least survived for literally thousands of years relatively unchanged throughout cultural upheaval, empire, purge, disaster, pestilence, war, famine, and until death. Such a firmly entrenched practice and institution needs societies' recognition and support rather than the intrusion of more cultural experimentation, like the once vaunted Am. public school system--once arguably the best in the world a mere two or three decades ago, by untested and ill-conceived demands of a segment of society not fully embraced by the general culture. The problem with incessant "pushing the envelope" is that you can't always get what you want just by stamping your feet and insisting on it.

Rampant divorce has done its share
While homosexual activists continue their conspiracy to kill marriage, let's not forget that much damage had already been done by the millions of, frankly, selfish folks who gave up on their own marriages much too easily. The institution of marriage started to crumble in this society when divorce became de-stigmatized.

False Choice
I have to protest the idea that there are only two possibilities: heterosexual marriage or oblivion. The article and book at issue do not address the reality that allowing gay marriage will have little or no impact on the marital choices of the vast majority of Americans. If Bob and Phil down the street get married it will have no impact whatsoever on me and Sue here on the corner. None. And I challenge anyone who opposes gay marriage to honestly claim that they would be less likely to marry if Bob and Phil are also allowed to marry.

The worst solution would be to create civil unions, a sort of marriage lite. The European experience suggests that civil unions will be used more by half committee straight couples than by gays and will result in even fewer marriages and more distress.




Hi CA
I wrote a whole novella and TH bumped me out, LOL. So bear with me and I'll try to answer you. And thank you for the compliment of me being reasonable. I am a conservative, not religious but grew up with my gay uncle and his partner being a major part of my family, so I have a little empathy and background.

Ok! The reason I don't think Gay marriage is viable is not because I want to save you all from the pains of divorce. I personally just think that the gay movment hasn't actually thought it out thoroughly.

Basically, and please don't be offended, but the case for Gay marriage has simply been presented to heterosexuals as a "Gimme now and if you don't you are a gay basher, hater, NEO-Nazi and it's people like you who are the reason why millions of gay people are getting beat up all over the world!!!" I've been told this before.

It's not my job or place to approve anything, nor can I make things happen. However, what my uncle has said and what I feel as well, regardless who you are, if you want something bad enough, you need to learn how to speak to your audience. If I heard a case calmly from point A-Z about gay marriage, it's benefits and what to do in case of divorce, then you would have more ears and eyes upon you. It doesn't mean an entire culture will change over night, but you will have ridden a high horse and presented yourself with dignity. My uncle was all about that.

Which leads me into what you said to me about how in the 40's and 50's it was more difficult to be gay, and now it's better, but can't it be even better? Yes it can be better, and for everyone as well under every color, religion, creed and sexual preference. For ALL of us. Who doesn't want a little sugar to replace the salt?
I sure do. But do you think all these changes occured today within our society regarding homosexuals with parades, name calling and so on? Back then it wasn't. It was done having coffee with a few friends and talking as friends in circles.

Again, I can't change the world, my viewpoint doesn't count, but I really think the worst enemy to the gay marriage movement are gays themselves.

Still, I don't think Gay Marriage is viable. Call me crazy, I just get whimsy about tradition and a value system that has gone on for hundreds of years. It's the law it's between a man and a woman, religion (although I am not practicing) states it's for a man and a woman. By disrupting this practice by entering a new variable of same sexers, you have permanently altered tradition and a belief system.

I accept a lot of things that I don't happen to care for to which I cannot belong to or benefit from. I'm white and I can't benefit from the United Negro College Fund, Ebony magazine won't hire me, if I were an actress I'd never get the Oscar from the Black Academy Awards, and BET of the Black Entertainment TV show will not hire me. I am white, I can be eligable to gain and produce anything from anyone of those things, but I cannot because I am not black. I accept it. It's not even a tradition, it's just their thing, and I am excluded from it. I accept it.

So you said to me: I realize you consider it a lifestyle choice that you got married and then choose to get divorced (which I guess it is) but do you really think your sexual identity behind it that gives you the option of getting married/divorced is a choice that you have made? If not, how is this tradition fair or right?

I don't think I understand this question.






Why marriage?
Every time there is a debate about gay marriage, I have to ask the question, why are gays so desperate to gain the title of "marriage" for their union? How about we find a new term that they can use? The government can then grant them rights and everyone would be happy. But that isn't the case. The word "marriage" is a term of acceptance. And that seems to be what the push really is for... acceptance of the gay lifestyle.

In all the arguments about how gaining the title of "marriage" will stablize the gay lifestyle and encourage them to a deeper commitment, one must ask 2 questions: (1) if the label "marriage" will do so much, why hasn't the label "union" done the same? and (2) if gays are so desperate to be in committed "one partner" relationships why is that not demonstrated in their lifestyle today? (the average gay will have more partners in one month than most heterosexual singles will in an entire year). You cannot blame the lack of "marriage rights" for that. If put head to head, the gay will choose to have more partners than the heterosexual just looking at singles.

So, I throw the challenge out there for all the gays... you guys want to prove that you want to be in committed relationships that would be consistent with the title "marriage" then live your life NOW that way. Find ONE PERSON and settle down. Don't cheat on each other. Prove that the majority can do it then bring your request before the people.

MellorSJ
Why are you attacking me for having an opinion? LOL. I'm having a perfectly frank discussion, I'm no politician, so no need to yip at my ankles. It's not up to me to change your life.

You said to me, like it was some sort of a Gotcha: Way to go while you say you support two-parent households!

You put words in my mouth. I never said I did support it, or single households, or triple parent households. Try to pay attention to who you are arguing with rather than whom you'd rather argue with.

You also said: Unmarried couples are subject to death taxes. The fact that we can all agree they should be repealed doesn't sway the IRS.

Well, everyone, married or single, gay or straight, if they were meant to inherit anything were subjected to Death Taxes. Guess who within the 1st year of office banished the Death Tax? You're favorite, George Bush. Guess who plans on bringing it back in a few years, ah yes, the democrats. Oh and the democrats also want to bring back the Marriage Tax too. Sure you still want to be married?

Lumping your points on benefits and that you need a very expensive lawyer to ensure gay people have rights over property and hospitalization care, otherwise it goes to the next of kin.

Lie. You can go online and do a living will anytime for a small amount. It's concrete and it's done. Maybe doing a little research when you come across the roadblocks would go a long long way.

You also say:
But perhaps your uncle has forgotten the pressures to marry in his generation and the need to move to the city to escape them.

No, he hasn't forgotten, they had it rough, whereas you all have a cake walk. He sees this generation of gays with disdain and is ashamed of the majority of the behavior you exude when you have so much to be grateful for. Everyone can use a little more happiness, but can't we all?







MellorSJ Thur, 03/22/2007 5:41 AM

Wow, MellorSJ… you seem to have many more issues besides being gay. No one ever said life was fair. If you think it is unfair for someone to tell you that homosexuality should be private and kept behind closed doors, well, get over it. Ask someone born with a birth defect if life is fair. Ask the person mugged last night if life is fair. Life ain’t fair.

You have no way of telling that the woman in the picture on my desk is my wife, mother, sister, or my dear rich aunt. And no body is telling you to take any pictures off your desk. Get over yourself.

I have not introduced you to my ‘brats’ so where do you come off being so informal and abusive of them whom you do not know? Get over yourself.

I can’t think of one time that someone came up to me and asked, what did you do on the weekend, and with whom did you do it? But if they did, I could just say ‘nothing much’ or ‘mind your own business’… Or, I could say that ‘me and a friend kicked back and rented movies from Netflix’… Do I have to tell them I spent the weekend in a motel with my friend (my secretary) in passionate adultery? Or I could say, ‘my buddy and I went power boating on Lake Woebegone’… Do I have to tell them what my buddy and I did on the boat? What’s private should stay private. Get over yourself.

It seems to me that you are jealous of the straight lifestyle including the wife and ‘brats’. If we have it so bad, why do you want to imitate us with faux marriage?

Part of the real issue here is you want me to accept your lifestyle as natural and normal (that won’t happen); and you want to use government as your club with which to beat me over the head (that may happen if I don’t fight back politically).

Your next four points seem to imply that homosexuality and religion is the same thing. What??? Are you smoking something bad? Tell me, is homosexuality your religion… and if so, who/what is your god? If it is not a religion then your contrasting points here make no sense and are worthless.

I can’t wait to hear from you.

Blame Boomers & Their Sexual Revolution
Long before homosexual activists were being taken seriously in their demands for holy sodomony, Americans accepted and embraced pornography, fornication, and adultery--first in their entertainment media and then in their own lives. We have a society in which 90% of the adults condone premarital sex, and half of the marriages end in divorce.

The sanctioning of homosexual marriage will eventually and tragically occur, largely because the younger generation has accepted it, and soon enough they will be in charge.

The current generation of young adults is the most perverted ever to come along, attributable largely to the selfish, immoral example of their parents--members of the Baby Boom Generation that laid the foundation for greater abominations to come.

The Civil War over Civil Marriage
Since many people throw out analogies & examples on this subject, here is a parallel that hasn't been made before (I think). Homeowners are allowed to deduct their housing cost (mortgage interest) for tax purposes; renters are not afforded the same privilege. Although this might be beneficial to the real estate market as well as the lenders, it seems unfair to the renters. TH readers are smart enough to figure out that homeowners in this example are analogous to heterosexuals - while renters are analogous to gay couples.

So, should renters also get a tax deduction for their housing costs? In fairness, they could certainly make such a case. The reasons that there hasn't been a taxpayer revolt on this issue are (a) most renters eventually aspire to become homeowners (b) landlords are not as organized as real estate professionals (c) due to the numbers, there isn't enough financial or political motivation behind this issue

My solution: repeal this deduction and lower taxes for everyone - clearly the Govt doesn't need this money, if they can give it back selectively!
----------excerpt ends-----------

To read the entire article titled: "It took a Civil War to end Slavery - will Civil Unions end the 'War' on Gay Marriage?" click on the link below:
http://voice.townhall.com/g/331f0d34-b56e-4a2e-9c29-64ca7eaaa12a

Disclosure#1: I am a happily married, heterosexual, conservative male. Socially, I don't have a personal stake in this debate. What is the significance of this disclosure? In our polarized country, it is assumed that only Gays or liberals care about Gay Marriage and that all straight conservatives oppose it. However, conservatives too believe that there has to be fairness and equality in our policies.

Disclosure#2: Due to my political atheism, I choose to ignore the religious viewpoint that opposes gay marriage or any other issue. If a conservative (or libertarian) position can't be defended based on fundamental rights, the constitution or objective law, then it is lost anyway! As I have mentioned before, that does not constitute an anti-Religious sentiment. What it does mean is that I accept the reality that issues cannot be decided in modern America on a religious basis alone.

I find that the secular, conservative viewpoint opposing Gay Marriage is weak. Most of the points that are raised by secular conservatives can also apply to heterosexual marriage as well. Therefore, conservatives who oppose Gay Marriage typically fall back on the argument from tradition or religion.

Shells
Regarding my question, I guess I asked based on my understanding that traditions change over time. Marriage itself has changed a great deal over time to accomodate more equality for women within marriage (I'm only talking about the legal aspects here and not religion though I would venture to guess that those traditions have changed over time) amongst other changes. In general, I think change can be a positive thing when it involves more fairness and inclusivity. So my question was basically asking if you believe sexual identity (as opposed to simply behavior) was a choice or not? If it is not a choice, then is it right to exclude this group from this tradition.

I get where you are going with your comparison with your being white and not able to join certain organizations because of it. I don't however agree that this is one of those instances since the reason for exclusion, in my opinion, is not valid.

Regarding the behavior of gays in their attempts to gain rights in society, I would agree with you that the tactics taken are not always the most appealing. Often the tactics taken by those most actively involved in causes I support are not the tactics I would choose. When it comes to legal issues, however, I think the tactics can sometimes be irrelevant. I am more concerned about whether the exclusion of gays from marriage (or an equivalent such as civil unions, which I am totally for) or the military (or whatever issue we want to debate) and the rights and responsibilities that go along with them is right or wrong. If they are wrong, I support change in society.

Finally, I get what you are saying about pride parades being a big turn off to a lot of straight people. It's a turn off for a lot of gay people too. I imagine in your uncle's time those types of events would have had a different purpose than they do now. Specifically, at one time they were meant to bring awareness to others about this community. It was a type of protest for the world to see, albeit a life affirming protest for those involved in the parades. Now they're really just a party for gay people and their friends. True, they are a bit raunchy sometimes, but in the neighborhoods where they take place, generally a lot of gay people live and they are announced well in advance in case anyone gay or straight wants to avoid them. I sort of see it like Chicago's Blues Fest. I personally don't like blues music so I avoid downtown that weekend. I don't have a problem with them holding the event though.

It's very nice to debate with you without any name calling or animosity. thanks.

CA
One thing we can agree on---I hate Chicago Bluesfest TOO! LOL! Oh my, I died laughing. I live here and I refuse to be anywhere near the area during that.

Aaah, ok, now I understand your question. True, things have changed with the marital traditions for women, one given example, that dirty word called Obey. But I do not know whether sexual identity is a choice or not. My uncle just said he woke up one day as a teenager and just knew it. Was it genetic or was it environmental? I truly do not know, I don't even know if he does. As far as excluding groups from a tradition whether sexual identity is inherited or not, I can't answer. Reason, I don't have that power to make that choice. I know that sounds weak, but I'm being honest.

It is good to talk to you too. I enjoy discussions.

two things
Voice of Reason: I'm all for getting rid of that deduction and distributing it more evenly. My understanding of it is that the owner of the property gets the deduction. I'm a renter but I'm sure my lanlord gets somesort of benefit on the property I live in since he owns it. Where your analogy looses me is the renters aspire to become homeowners because I don't know any gay people that really want to be straight. Maybe there are a bunch of negative aspects associated with being gay but the basic sexual orientation we tend to be perfectly happy with.

Shells: I grew up in the 80's and came out in the early 90's and I'm sure it was an easier process for me to come out and live openly as a gay man than for your uncle, but I'd hardly call it a cakewalk. It certainly wasn't an easy process to come out to my very conservative and religious family let alone anyone else and it took quite a few years to become comfortable with it.

two things
Voice of Reason: I'm all for getting rid of that deduction and distributing it more evenly. My understanding of it is that the owner of the property gets the deduction. I'm a renter but I'm sure my lanlord gets somesort of benefit on the property I live in since he owns it. Where your analogy looses me is the renters aspire to become homeowners because I don't know any gay people that really want to be straight. Maybe there are a bunch of negative aspects associated with being gay but the basic sexual orientation we tend to be perfectly happy with.

Shells: I grew up in the 80's and came out in the early 90's and I'm sure it was an easier process for me to come out and live openly as a gay man than for your uncle, but I'd hardly call it a cakewalk. It certainly wasn't an easy process to come out to my very conservative and religious family let alone anyone else and it took quite a few years to become comfortable with it.

two things
Voice of Reason: I'm all for getting rid of that deduction and distributing it more evenly. My understanding of it is that the owner of the property gets the deduction. I'm a renter but I'm sure my lanlord gets somesort of benefit on the property I live in since he owns it. Where your analogy looses me is the renters aspire to become homeowners because I don't know any gay people that really want to be straight. Maybe there are a bunch of negative aspects associated with being gay but the basic sexual orientation we tend to be perfectly happy with.

Shells: I grew up in the 80's and came out in the early 90's and I'm sure it was an easier process for me to come out and live openly as a gay man than for your uncle, but I'd hardly call it a cakewalk. It certainly wasn't an easy process to come out to my very conservative and religious family let alone anyone else and it took quite a few years to become comfortable with it.

Kath - CA Proposition 22

The offer was... "put the issue on the ballot. If the gays win, majority rules and we have a new version of an old tradition. Otherwise, they shut up."

They haven't 'shut up' even in the face of an overwhelming (87%) majority opposed to gay marriage.

If they won't shut up, why should I? I will oppose it with science... (man-to-man sex is a deadend). I will oppose with religion... (God frowns on it [is that language strong enough?]). It doesn't matter. They will continue their attack on the institution.

But thanks for your comment. I appreciate the support. I will continue the fight until I die or they repent. (I will probably end up in prison convicted of hate speech. Whatever will become fo the 1st Amendment?)

To MellorSJ - Still waiting for your response.

Waste of time:
Here we go again...

"Marriage is for the sake of children" WAH, WAH, WAH!

"We want the 1001 rights" WAH, WAH, WAH!

Gay marriage advocates, you're wasting your time here. You're wailing at a wall.

Gay marriage phobes, you're wasting your time, too. You're wailing in the wind.

Same-sex marriage will be federally recognized in the United States in 10 years or so. So if you’re under 60, there’s a good chance you’ll live to see it coming to a neighborhood near you. I’m not supposed to tell this, but - pssst - there's a sneak attack in progress. The absurd ban on gays serving in the military won't last much longer than the Bush administration. And when the ban goes, federally recognized same-sex marriage won't be far behind. Why? Because the ink won't even be dry on the resolution to lift the ban before Bruce demands to be allowed to take Greg with him when he's transferred to Korea, and have all the other privileges and benefits hetero couples living the military life are granted. And we won't be able to say no to Bruce because he's a SOLDIER and we're asking him to lay down his life for our freedoms and all that. So if he wants Greg to have commissary privileges and be presented with the flag off his casket, we're going to HAVE to say yes. And since the military is a federal institution...well, once same-sex partners of military personnel are recognized as spouses, it's just a short hop to the M-word being available to all, from sea to shining sea.

Like it or not, THAT is the future of marriage. So why don’t you people argue about pulling out of Iraq or something?

Close
"...much damage had already been done by the millions of, frankly, selfish folks who gave up on their own marriages much too easily. The institution of marriage started to crumble in this society when divorce became de-stigmatized."

"De-stigmatized" may have had a small role, but the biggest impetus for our divorce culture is when the government stepped in and made divorce an attractive alternative.

From the ease of no fault divorce; guaranteed child custody for Mothers; government payments that are depend on a Father not being in the home; child support awards that subsidize the divorcing parent and on it goes.

It started with LBJ's war on poverty which amounts to the government redistributing parental income. Why would any woman who is even slightly unhappy choose to ride it out when she knows the government will ensure her a financial foundation and she can expel the cause of her unhappiness while not having to take full responsibility for her choice?


A Gay Family
Several years ago I attended the memorial service of a gay neighbor who had died (yes, of AIDS) and before the service started chatted for perhaps fifteen minutes with two men seated next to me, men who, until then, I did not know. They were a male couple (both looked to be about 35) who had just adopted a baby boy from another country---the child appeared to be about a year old. Both men handled the child with obvious care and affection. Both were attorneys who make plenty of money---this little boy, from a very poor Latin country---was going to have opportunities undreamed of in the land of his birth. The two adoptive parents had hired a full-time nanny who was a) female and b) a native of the boy's country so he would grow up speaking both English and Spanish, the language of his birth mother.

Right off the bat, I can't see that the fidelity, responsibility, and affection of this couple for one another, or their completely voluntary, thoughtful, and joyous plunge into parenthood, could be called immoral. Here is what I hope for them: I hope that couple can get married. If they can't, I hope they can get spousal benefits on their medical insurance. I hope they can enjoy all the legal safeguards of family life that straight couples do. I hope they can walk down the street without being ambushed and beaten by a homophobe. How foolish to object to such a fine family. If the Right is worried about marriage and family life, let them focus on our 50% divorce rate---among straight couples.

Mike R.
"Yes, society does have the right to define what it wants to legally condone as moral behavior."

Thank you for the concession. I wish all homosexual marriage proponents would agree that society has the right to legally embrace or reject behaviors. I'd have a lot more respect for the homosexual zealots if they would try and convince us that their behavior is worthy of our acceptance. Instead, they wage a campaign of hatred and declare that we must legally approve their behavior. They are wrong.

As for your dimissal of polygamy, it is your opinion that when their is more than two individuals the "bond is weakened". I personally find polygamy to be more biologically normal than homosexuality. As a heterosexual, my opinion is that I could have strong relationship bonds with more than one female much more easily than a strong relationship bond with a man. I'm no advocate for polygamy, but I do find it interesting that you would understand the bond of homosexuals, but diminish the bonds of relationships that you do not understand.

You also claim that pedophilia is not a legitimate comparison because children cannot make "grave decisions", but you fail to explain why we have variances in the age of marital consent? Let me answer, because society does have the right and obligation to identify and reject behaviors even to the point of determining at what age someone is capable of making "grave decisions".

In regard to incestuous marriages, you stated that the adults have an existing relationship which takes precedence. Once again, you are willing to give your opinion on morality more weight than an incestuous couples desire to bring their relationship to the ultimate level of marriage.

Homosexual marriage advocates are consistently hypocritical when it comes to rejecting the potential legality of other atypical marriages. I guess homosexuals really are like the rest of us. They also wish to impose their moral standards on society.

Homosexuality and Parenting Don't Mix
One of the homosexuals on this blog referred to children generally as "brats."

This gets to the heart of why homosexuals should not be allowed to get married or to adopt children.

Homosexuals define their very existence and identity by their sexual activity. And as long as their lives are CENTERED on their sexual gratification, homosexuals will be incapable of the kind of unselfishness, sacrifice, self-denial, protectiveness and wholesomeness that is essential for the proper parenting of children.

Granted, even some heterosexual folks--especially many of the current porn generation of young adults--are far too preoccupied with sex. However, many normal people, as they have children and mature, learn to put sex in a proper perspective.

A man who has the maturity to assume his role as a true husband and father recognizes the importance of the family's needs and wants ahead of his own. For instance, during and for sometime after his wife's pregnancies, a good husband knows to show her tender affection but not with sexual advances.

Further, a good husband knows not to complain or to feel deprived about the many times when, even though he may be feeling amorous, his wife is too tired from a long week of tending to their little children. A good father also learns to accept and cherish the fact that his little children--frightened by the darkness or feeling sick or simply wanting to snuggle--often show up between him and his wife in the middle of the night.

A good father knows that it is his job as a protector of his children to keep all unwholesome influences away from them. Children need an innocent childhood, and they need unselfish, loving attention from a father and a mother who serve as appropriate masculine and feminine role models.

If necessary, a good husband whose wife becomes disabled can completely abstain from sexual activity for the rest of his life, for he truly loves her, is faithful to her, and he is a good role model for his children.

Such a life as I have described here is incompatible with the life of a person whose mind and heart is given over to lewd sexual preoccupations. I simply can't see how the selfish, inherently sex-centered life of a homosexual could be compatible with being a good father.

The homosexuals who have posted on this blog will not be able to understand this, but they are immature, centering their lives on their sexual gratification.

CA
My apologies, I shouldn't have called it a cake walk. What I really meant to say was in comparison to the 40's and 50's, it's a lot easier now. I'm sure you got taunted and your family objected, it can be more lonesome than anything.

I wanted to tell you about my uncle too, but I can't divulge his name, but back in the day, he was actually a pretty famous guy. He was in the theatre, go figure, LOL, and traveled around the world, knows 7 languages, taught English to Italian students in Milan, opened up an opera house, was the 1st to convert different language operas into English, became a Maestro, and taught opera lessons during his retirement. He led a very full life and happy. He was in a good place for someone like him, but yes, outside of his realm, he was a target. But he overcame and is a better man for it.

Just thought I'd give a nie story for you before I go to bed.

What? & Off the reservation
One of Gallagher's arguments baffles me. I understand and appreciate tradition-based and morality-based arguments, but the argument that gay marriage would cause heterosexuals not to marry is bizarre. To make sense, one would seem to have to argue that one of the appeals to marriage among heterosexuals is the fact that homosexual relationships are not similarly recognized. Does that make sense?

I did find one part of her column very interesting. Over the years social conservatives have shown exceptional discipline in refusing to recognize the following:

Humans yearn for each other.
Humans yearn for intimacy.
Humans yearn for closeness.
Humans yearn for companionship.

One can be sure that all of the "pro-family" activists have had to use their delete or backspace keys more than a few times to wipe out all reference to these truths.

This is because the anti-gay message has always depended on the following falsehood:

Homosexuals yearn for only sexual gratification.

This has always been the cornerstone to the anti-gay movement because this is the lie that most effectively dehumanizes homosexuals. People who care only about sex do in fact remind us of mere animals. Of course after you apply the other "yearnings" that Gallagher speaks of to gay people, you're left with an average human being. That doesn't work for the Christian Right. Doesn't work at all.

Hello to you too Mellor
Thanks for backtracking, I probably also mis-read your comments as one of vindictiveness. It's a reflex I have on TH, so forgive me too. I can be a bit salty if I sense bitterness.

As far as single family, two parents, etc, I guess my thoughts are this: I'm all for it, regardless of the dynamics as long as the caretakers of the children truly love them, care for them, nuture them, and allow them the ooportunity to decide their own preferences later on in life regarding religion and sexual orientation. There are a lot of broken homes and unhappy children. I do not have kids myself, but it's important to me as I look back on my life, for all children to have an active and opportunitistic happy childhood. Does that make sense? I hope I explained that ok. I am taking marriage out of the equation.

I'm not religious, but if I did have children, I would want them to know about God and the teachings, and then they can decide for themselves. There's nothing wrong with learning core values or having comfort in them believing if there is a higher being. I would be a poor teacher, but I would find a way they would get exposed.

I think most conservatives, even liberals who are indifferent, may have thoughts that if gay parents raised a child, it would be an "agenda child." Not being exposed to all religions, and "heterosexual" lifestyles. To each their own how to raise a family, but this is what most of the population thinks.

You voted for Bush? OMG, good for you, but I find that odd, considering. I'm sure you understand. What was it about Gore and Kerry that you didn't like?

I also discussed death tax and marriage tax because this forum was based on gay marriage. I thought you were a promoter of gay marriage?

Hee hee, my uncle was far from internalized, but I can see where a lot of gay men from his generation would be like that. Read what I wrote to CA, I described my uncle. But, and don't get offended, you could se my uncle coming 10 miles away, LOL. He wasn't one to hide it, at least, once his success came into play. It was sort of embarrassing for us kids when we'd all go out to eat. However, during Christmas and Thanksgiving, we were always happy to see Uncle XXXX and Auntie Ted. They would never touch or flaunt. They were just a couple of guys who sat on the couch watching football and driving my mom's in-laws insane. Good times.

none
It's always fun to watch the vollies that develop here between people who probably aren't really listening to each other at all. We might as well be arguing with crash-test dummies that are labelled "Leftist" and "Conservative" so we can tell the difference.

Nobody's changing their minds on any of this based on a comment from somebody on the other side of the political spectrum, whom by definition we fundamentally mistrust and find distasteful. Our words here do about as much good as punching a brick wall.

The truth is we all hate each other. Modern society is a place where the interests of the liberals and the conservatives cannot and do not intersect. One philosophy is defined by a violent rejection of everything the other stands for; one side desires the prosperity of that which the other wishes dead.

These views are irreconcilable.

The Founders wrote the Constitution with the express purpose of discouraging factions because they are the terminal disease of every democracy throughout history. But nearly everything they tried to do has been circumvented, nominalized, or rendered moot by modern society.

As this discussion illustrates, the philisophical divide in this country is quickly becoming irreconcilable. As it has been in every failed democracy throughout history, the people, in the words of Socrates, "have drunk too deeply of the wine of freedom," and are intoxicated by it.

Now, nothing but complete license is tolerable. We are drunk on the power of our individual liberty. The slightest call for restraint or self-sacrifice is rejected and called tyrannical oppression.

"Liberty is to faction as air is to fire."

Liberty leads to license, license leads to anarchy, and anarchy begs for a strong leader to restore order. The tyrant rises as the savior of the nation, and quickly imposes his order to much applause. But he does not surrender his power when the crisis has passed.

It is in such ways that great democracies fall into tyranny. America is on the path, my friends.

I predict the current divide will deepen; eventually, small disturbances will lead to riots, and riots will lead to civil war; the streets will run red, and a dictator will rise to restore security.

But today there is no Washington or Lincoln who will surrender power when the danger has passed.

Our children will live and die under a tyrant's bootheel. The young among us will live to see America's democracy die.

I hope the right for two men to get married is worth it.

You know not what you do.

Response to faulty "Reason"
"Reason,"

I suppose you were referring to my post with part of your remarks.

I believe that it is quite normal, desirable and healthy to have very close, trusting, brotherly (or sisterly), friendships with members of the same sex. Indeed, it is normal and healthy to feel a form of love for such friends. I think it unfortunate that some (especially men) refrain from such feelings of fraternal love for fear that they will be misconstrued as homosexual feelings.

What homosexuals seem to misunderstand is that one can love and admire and be loyal to a member of the same sex without having sexual feelings toward him (or her).

Homosexuals aren't content with that. Evidently, their idea of intimacy is inherently sexual.

Another point: I did not say that homosexuals yearn ONLY for sexual gratification. However, I would say that they yearn CHIEFLY for sexual gratification, no matter how old they get. It is obvious that their desire for sexual gratification trumps all other interests and priorities in their lives.

Blogmeister 3000
Blogmeister 3000,

A powerful point well said!

MellorSJ - Disappointed

I am so sorry you chose not defend you post to me. Guess you saw the writing on the wall?

Too bad as I will be gone for a week. Catch you later as I know you cannot refuse a conservative site... Just got to poke sticks to see if anyone will rise.

fellowAmerican
Why should we blame the boomers? Why don’t we blame the folks that raised them or the society that helped shape them in their formative years? Much of your reasoning shows similar superficial traits. Your are 100% correct about the nature and requirements of fatherhood but show offer no solid reason why a homosexual man can’t have such qualities. Derogative comments about children are no a gay monopoly nor is a life centered on sexual gratification. Your claim in that area is patently false and baseless. The same can be said of having nonsexual, brotherly/sisterly relationships. Homosexuals are no different then heterosexuals in this manner. Surely you can have such relationships. So can they.

birdman: Perhaps MellorSJ could not get back online to respond for one reason or another. Don’t be smug about someone’s failure to respond.

Mellor
Good afternoon.
You stated after I said I would allow my children to learn about religion:

That is a great shame. I think a case can be made that it is child abuse to impose on a child a fear of Hell before s/he has a chance to think for herself.

That's a little bit of a knee jerk reaction from you. This is why the population feels if gay couples raise children, it would be an "agenda baby." I am not speaking of forcing my kid into a uniform and being educated by nuns with rulers. But what's wrong with a children's bible? You may not believe it in, but would you not read to your children Green Eggs and Ham or Cinderella even though those are simply stories? What's wrong with bringing a kid to a church or a synagogue/temple? Maybe they would enjoy it, why should I hold them back? They have plenty of nice activities that kids can do where they socialize and do fun things, while throwing a bit of God here or there. I see no harm. I think it's more harmful to tell them a God doesn't exist when you or I don't know for certain that there isn't a "higher power." Again, I'm not religious, I'm an agnostic Jew, but it doesn't make me certain one way or the other about our existence. I cannot see imposing my belief system on my child. Rules and discipline yes. Politics and religion, no.

You said: No more. The combination of Bush's incompetence, the massive spending, the Democrat-lite promises, and most of all TownHall has convinced me never to vote Republican again.

Famous last words. Don't be too sure. I will vote republican, but for 2008, there is no one I prefer. If only Tom Tancredo had more popularity or if Newt were going to run, I'd be more optimistic. However, what if it's Rudy....Seems that you can save your tax dollars and have your liberties. Rudy is a liberal conservative. He promotoes gay marriage.

You also wrote: I chose to become an American because I believed that it was the most free society on earth, and I wanted to be a part of it. A lot has changed for the worse in 25 years. The country is technically bankrupt, the currency about to fall, we're mired in a war we did not have a plan to finish, "social security" (which shouldn't exist in the first place) is never going to pay anything more than a 2% return (if we're lucky), we're busy turning people away from our shores who want to work and be educated here, we're slowing research into genetic therapies, we're teaching our children myths in schools. I could go on.

Where did you originate from and when? Although you pish on a lot of things you do not like today about this country, is there any other country you feel is better suited for you? I am not being snide, just curious. If I were you, I'd still consider yourself lucky to be here.

To thwart your points, the US may not be in as deep of a hole as you think. We are in a war and conservatives do plan to finish it, but it's the democrats who would rather pull out before we're done.

I think social security is a fabulous thing--only if the money was used for people who are retiring, which was what it was for. But special programs for special people who are considered victims with so called special needs cried out to the democrats and so, our social security was doled out.
I see people in their 30's and 40's at the casino, cashing in their social security checks, smoking and drinking with manicured nails, dressed to the hilt, carrying around their heavy buckets of change. Why can't they work? Why are they collecting? I go to the grocery store, I see a woman with Gucci sunglasses wearing a fur coat driving a Beamer and using food stamps. How is she manipulating our system? There are millions of people who abuse the system, and our Social Security keeps getting used to cover all the special people who can work but choose not to. So, I was all for Bush privatizing my Social Security--I can invest wisely and the government keeps their mitts off of it.

As far as turning people away from our shores who want to work and be educated here, well, sigh....here I go. I assume you came here legally. I also assume you are not a criminal. Therefore, hello and welcome to America!!!
However, because of liberals, we gave away free education to a lot of students on school visas. A lot of them were terrorists. They came here for their education and they fly back home and devise plans of our deaths. We taught them engineering and how to fly planes...exept not how to land. Bad idea for being nice guys, huh?

Illegal aliens are coming in by the thousands per day, per day! They come here illegally, work and collect money on the side, never pay taxes on it, we give them welfare, drivers lisences, and free healthcare for every anchor baby they produce. The illegals know exactly how to manipulate our system...and if we claim we don't want to give them any government supplements, do you know what that makes us? Racist! So, people in office cater to the whims of the swarm. Imagine our deficit without this tax burden of illegals sucking our resources, not paying taxes, taking away jobs, lowering propery value because they cram 17 people in a 2 bedroom condo, they clog our courts, they clog our jails, and most of them also sell drugs to our US children. I could go on....

As far as slowing genetic therapies...perhaps there would be more research granted monies being doled out if Al Gore hadn't made Global Warming a more important issue rather than fighting diseases. That's where all your genetic funding is going.

As far as teaching children myths in school, sure I had to learn mythology...Zeus, Athena, etc. I found it to be quite interesting. If you're referring to the bible--that is done in Catholic or private schools where parents and teachers choose to have these taught. Is it wrong for a child in public school to enjoy the holidays and make a Christmas tree picture, or sing a carol or two, or get excited and jump up and down for Santa? Is it terrible to have a child seek easter eggs on a nice spring day with their family? Do you want to take away these joys? I loved them as a kid, and I feel I benefited from that experience. Because you refer to religion as a myth, and you are entitled to your opinion because no one knows what the heck is out there, that is why again, the population is against gay couples raising a child because of your "agenda babies." You instantly call religion a myth before a child can make his own decision. You decided for yourself, right?


Movewater
Quite true. Quite true.

Rampant inconsistency
The title of Ms Gallegher's book (The Case for Marriage: Why Married People Are Happier, Healthier, and Better Off Financially.) alone is the ironclad argument for allowing same-sex couple's equal marriage rights/rites.

Why wouldn't society want it's Gay and Lesbian members to also be Happier, Healthier and Better off financially?

Oh wait, I forgot - this is about Gay bashing, not what is good go the country.

and it's not about just children
Ms Gallegher tries to defend traditional marriage on the basis of child rearing. While in the ideal, every child would have a mother who stays home to bake cookies, and a father who goes to high paying professional job, and no one would ever be widowed or divorced before the kids are 50, let's talk about the real world.

The Ozzie and Harriet world of TV no longer exists, and we have children in families with same-gender parents. Why should those children not have the same protection as children in happy, intact, first-and-only marriage families?

Also, the courts have ruled that marriage is a fundamental right. If we let prisoners in for life marry, and infertile straight people marry, then the anti-Gay argument falls flat.

If you want to make children the sine qua non for marriage, then let's follow it to it's conclusion: no marriage if you can't prove fertility, and a marriage is annulled statutorily if you don't reproduce in a fixed time period.

"Thinkwell" doesn't ...
Think well wrote: Marriage is available to all.

All people have equal access to marriage right now. The law is completely blind to the sexual orientation and preferences of the individual.


Ah yes, the Anatole France logic of fairness.

The poor have to labour in the face of the majestic equality of the law, which forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.

movwater
Your statistics are interesting but since we don't exclude non-monogomous hetersexuals from marriage should you use homosexual promiscuity as an argument for excluding gays? Maybe those gays and lesbians that choose to get married will be more monogamous than the gay population as a whole. The studies you cite compare married and coupled heterosexuals with merely coupled heterosexuals so we don't really know what married heterosexuals would do. One thing that is implied from the studies of heterosexual fidelity is that those couples that choose to go through the formal steps of marriage are more monogamous than those that don't. It might have a positive effect on the gay community if that trend is similar for gays.

I also always find statements like "the average homosexual relationship is short lived". It's undoubtably true but so are most heterosexual relationships when you think about all the relationships people have before they meet the person they marry. Comparing all gay relationships with just one segment of straight relationships is faulty.


To whoever said that gays are unable to form close nonsexual relationships with other men, get out a bit more. From that statement I'd guess that you've never had a close gay friend. We (I'm speaking only for gay men here I guess though the lesbians I know are similar) generally have tons of platonic gay friends and also straight male friends. And then if you add in all the intimate friendships we have with woman that are nonsexual (which sometimes seems to be a problem for many straight men, I might add) I think it's clear we're not just about sex.

MellorSJ
Have a safe trip! It's been fun talking to you, thanks for sharing. Have a great weekend!

Cheers!

previous post
there are a few instances where I wrote "heterosexual" instead of "homosexual" in my previous post. You can probably figure it out. My apologies.

Post removed again...
It's amazing how many times my profanity free (yet concise and well written) posts are removed from TH on a regular basis while some of the most vile, disgustingly bigoted posts remain intact (not this particular thread, mind you)

Townhall loves to talk about the gays, but they sure hate when the gays talk.

My sympathies Allen
TH is the ultimate hypocritical site. I'm not sure how they justify allowing vagina while banning p3nis. And if you're a liberal, don't bother writing anything intelligent because it's sure to be flagged as offensive and knocked off- they should have a 'flag as intelligent' so that the whining brats can't kick off everything that makes them think twice about their preconceived idiotic notions.

Obviously, I agree that gay marriage is bound to happen in the next ten years. As a lesbian, I could marry my gf right now but I'd have to take hormones and get a prosthetic p3nis- no rational society should have that be the requirement for adult lovers to get married.

I found the Netherlands discussion to be interesting. Perhaps with gays being allowed to marry, heteros felt that the whole 'waiting until marriage to screw' concept just wasn't as valuable. Typical to blame the gays for heteros irresponsible behaviors.

sterile couples have no value?
I see from the majority of posts that children are the only things that matter when a couple marries.
Right.
Those of us who don't naturally procreate are only good for the trash heap eh?
No significant others for us. No marriage that would protect and love us in our sickness, dotage...or accompany us in public as our beloved?

Those of you who are married know full well that when you applied for your marriage license, nobody asked you about children, your intention for them or if you had the wherewithal to raise a houseplant, let alone a child.

This is what I mean by how casually the rules of marriage are set differently for gay people in ways no heterosexual EVER has to worry about.
Besides, the man/woman model is assuming that one or both parties are heterosexual.
So what's the point in two gay people albeit opposite sex, marrying if you don't like the idea of gay people raising children?

The risk of divorce is greater in this instance, so the deprivation argument is that a child is being deprived of straight parents.
The deprivation argument is the slipperiest of all.
A parent with cancer should be taken from their children because a parent with cancer isn't as ideal as one who is healthy.

I am right now, without the companionship, love or shared responsibilities with my husband because I am sterile.
I see why my in laws are so cruel, I'm the dud in the family that didn't produce children, so I was more fit for grass widowhood and divorce.

How very cruel, don't you think?
I look at this thread and the arguments regarding children and marriage.
As IF heterosexuality alone qualifies the quality of parent and person will make.
And as if to say there are NO models of excellent gay parenting you never heard of.

What a smug, cruel bunch of people. Sterility makes a person worthless. The sterile have no other qualities, or other things of merit to offer society?
There are no other ways in which they can help people raise children in their communities?
Right, gay people never do anything else of value that supports our society.

They might as well be dead for all the contribution their sex lives make?
So that reduces our species to breeding cow and stud bull?
If M. Gallagher believed her own article title, she'd believe fully that not all heterosexuals marry for the reasons she's stating, and homosexuals having love, companionship, healthier and wealthier families shouldn't be an option?
Well, WHY?

Again, the people here who are measuring the short term time and small place where couples can marry are rushing to judgement.
Marriage rates are low among blacks, but you're not going to say they aren't worthy of the option too, are you?
Because some segregationists tried that already.
No, every argument against same gender marriage (assuming the couple are both gay) IS weak. VERY.
And hypocritical and inconsistent.
Straight people can barely defend their OWN treatment of marriage, let alone what another group will do with it.

Someone in a couple will deprive someone of something, or they will be very generous in something else.
We don't qualify a couple's defects and flaws before the fact.
You cannot legislate what that will be. You don't where het couples are concerned, so don't start where gay couples are.
And the only people saying the man/woman model is IDEAL, are straight people. And the evidence isn't there either that that model alone is ideal for anything.

Two married parents is better than unmarried parents. So if you all truly believed in that-then you'd be consistent in the belief that marriage is important to and for every KIND of person there is.
I see here that few are qualified to judge the measure of gay people. Anecdotal and premature information can't disqualify what a group, new to the institution will do with it over the long run.
But so far, they haven't done worse to it, as predicted.
And DESPITE not having the benefit of the institution, press on for full marriage equality anyway.

A lot of time, money and energy has been spent by the gay community to do so.
And the same has been spent to keep them out of it, while straight couple's marriages go down in flames.
So, I'd say the Gallagher side of the aisle is engaged in a war and is shooting down a class of people who are not the enemy.




Parents
"If the government would ensure that sex ed taught in our public schools taught safe sex methods and the value of abstinence, we would not have as many teenage pregnancies in this country."

Do you think government is a person? Do you think that government should be responsible for teaching children values? Or do you think parents should teach values? Why do you think the government is better at teaching safe sex and abstinence than a parent? Who is government? Why do you think government is better at protecting the interests of children than parents? Maybe single parents should marry government since it apparently cares so much for their children?

how to make babies
The idea that we 'need' the public schools to teach boys and girls how to make babies is a joke.
Men and Women have been doing it for over 5,000 years--- long before the notion of 'State' Education.
I would venture that the Public Schools are not in the Education racket to begin with. Education presumes a core of study and a set of information to impart. The Secularists are so plural that they cannot define the core.
For a legitimate education on this topic, ie Human Procreation, you must look beyond the five senses and own that Man is a combination of flesh and spirit. The spiritual dimension is denied and opposed by secular education, and that leaves the flesh.
yes the secularist lives for the flesh, and what is the end of that?
Slavery to the natural appetites
Gluttony
Sexual Promiscuity
Drug Addiction
Public Education guarantees it.


"The wicked shall be turned into Hell, and all the nations that forget God." Psalms 9:17

you did it again
Movwater,
you did it again! You can't stay on the point about GAY PEOPLE!
The marriage license application you cite, is about close relatives with regard to marriage laws as they apply NOW.
In all marriage application there are about five basic rules.

1. The two parties are of mutual consent.

2. The parties are of basic minimum age, there IS no maximum.

3. That neither party is currently married to another.

4. That neither party is closely related.

Gays and lesbians DEFINITELY fall into this category.
The marriage institution's primary function is to make two unrelated, consenting adults, first and primary next of kin.
Period.

Gays and lesbians again, fall into this category if you quit equating gay marriage with the NUMBER of spouses, or gay marriage with and animal, or gay marriage with the children as requisites to be eligible.

Again, our marriage laws make no restrictions on HOW MANY TIMES you marry, no matter how badly you mess up each one.
Nor any restrictions when it comes to criminal status or profound differences between the consenting couple.
Stick to the marriage rules AS THEY ARE NOW for everyone.
Gays and lesbians fit the category and there is no reason or proof that anything else will compare to this inclusion into the institution.

Your arguments keep getting inconsistent, hypocritical and illogical the more you keep posting against gay marriage.

Gay people transcend EVERY family and culture and shouldn't be strangers to anyone.
But you talk as if expert on gay motives and intentions and the results of gay inclusion in marriage, without the intimacy and respect required to do so.

Much like segregationists who spoke with expertise to OTHER WHITE PEOPLE about what damage would occur with integration (which they only saw in negative and sexual terms), but without the social intimacy for them to REALLY know anything at all.

I bring that up because although being black isn't exactly like being gay, historically the bad treatment of gays and blacks is similar.
It's exclusion without merit and discrimination disguised as moral reform.
And the same statement you made about government doing the job of family for out of wedlock birth rates, the SAME IS TRUE for the Stanley Kurtz studies of Scandinavia and the Netherlands that Gallagher herself keeps citing.
Which makes gay people blameless.

So we come to the most important point for gay marriage to be accepted.
Gay people cannot escape their responsibilities. To assume that the people they have to care for, isn't about love, is cruel and an unwarranted prejudice.
How would YOU know?

You can't judge gay person's love in any way.
So, if the marriage option keeps gay people from depending on government to meet their needs, this is another case FOR it, rather than against it.

Why force anyone to be dependent on the government?
Whether it's foster children gay couples could care for, or their significant other, BECAUSE they have no children, should be able to pass along their financial benefit to care for them.
People need love. To give as well as receive. To nurture another's growth.
To say, that gay people are such beasts that they are unworthy of it, even when murderers in prison can marry, is saying that there is NOTHING a gay person can do of merit.
Not for society, not for each other.

And THIS is the prejudice and inconsistent bigotry in all it's sorry light.
You only glean tiny parts of my comments that you feel you can confortably address, but you can't deal with the bigger point.

That you don't see gay people as human enough, talented enough, contributing enough members of the human race to participate equally in a shared, stabilizing institution.
If you just said that, instead of long columns of biased heterosexual research and misinformation, I'd have more respect for you.

But the fact remains, none of you against gay people in general and gay marriage in particular can't admit that your comments come from a SUPREMACIST principle, not a moral one.
Otherwise you wouldn't keep saying how ideal heterosexuality is as if it's a merit all on it's own, and homosexuals have no merit whatsoever.

However much YOU really benefit from their willingness to at least TRY to be a part of the culture they do understand and care about.
The difference of homosexuality is just that, different.

But don't criticize people outside of an institution for so long, if they are tentative or not perfect in it at first.

If straight people are so skilled in marriage and childrearing, how come you all SUCK at it so bad? No matter HOW much the culture has supported you in it for so long?

At the most we can say that the attitudes about gender in marriage and economic security and it's equalization has factored in the most profound changes in marriage over the last century.
So, in keeping gender issues balanced through gay marriage, at least such unions will likely be more stable.
And less children are likely to be affected by divorce, as in straight marriage.

If gay people new to the institution don't have it so perfectly, I know from experience that help and support also give a marriage it's foundation.
So, what's straight people's excuse?

support and marriage success
I meant to say, that communal support helps marriage success.
Gay couples and parents succeed in spite of lack of it.

And straight couples fail, despite support for theirs.
So, the reality is, no one is perfect. And gay couples shouldn't require being perfect where no one is in fact, perfect.

How dare the Netherlands!
Until I read this column, I thought the Netherlands was one of the most logical countries on the planet. But with their permitting gays to marry and the resulting negative effects on homosexual couples, there is no doubt in my mind that the most important thing for America to focus on is how to reign in those evil flaming gay people! They have no right to get married because they do not follow The Word.

We are a Christian country, and marriage is primarily a religious institution that requires a holy person to perform it for it to have any validity. I'm so tired of hearing gays say they don't have equal rights under the law. We don't allow the Brits to become citizens here just because they want to, and we shouldn't allow gays to marry just because they want to. Gay people could marry other gay people of the other sex. Many married couples stop having sex after a few weeks, so I don't know why the gays are so opposed to marrying someone they don't care all that much for. Marriage is about ensuring that people conform to religious norms in society, without which we would have chaos and anarchy.

Adults should be forced to marry by age 21 because waiting any longer than that to have sex can really drive some people crazy. Married people are much less likely to break laws and are more productive members of society. And let's face it- women need to remember their place is in the home home-schooling the children so that they can learn to be just like their parents. This whole thing about teaching kids to think for themselves only leads to evil behaviors like pre-marital sex and a lack of involvement in Bible groups.

Sorry gays, no marriage for you cause you're just not as good as we are. The Bible says so, and we say so, and we outnumber you so just move to Canada already and leave us God-abiding people alone to enjoy our sexless marriages.

movwater...
You really need to get a life. You spent all that time writing all this, and from the beginning of this last posts of yours...you LIED!

I live in California, in Los Angeles...nobody asked about children or the intent of them when I applied for a marriage license. It's not a requirement to marry.
You're not worth dealing with, with your long, biased, heterosupremacist screeds.
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