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Tuesday, October 24, 2006
Maggie Gallagher :: Townhall.com Columnist
State marriage amendment and gay rights: New dilemmas
by Maggie Gallagher
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This week I'm speaking at a National Press Club event sponsored by the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association about the coming vote on state marriage amendments.

Here's a sneak preview:

On Nov. 7, eight states will vote on state marriage amendments that define marriage as the union of husband and wife, and also confine the legal benefits of marriage to married couples (i.e., no government-created civil unions). Twenty states have already passed such amendments, with around 60 percent to 80 percent voter approval.

This time around, gay rights groups have grown excited about the prospect of knocking down one or more of these amendments. Three states in particular are in play: Wisconsin, Arizona and South Dakota, each of which has had polls in recent months suggesting the state marriage amendment may be in trouble. (Amendments in Tennessee, Idaho and South Carolina will likely pass by wide margins. In Virginia, 53 percent of likely voters tell pollsters they approve of the state marriage amendment, despite a vigorous campaign for its defeat. In Colorado, gay groups have focused less on opposing the state marriage amendment than on passing a ballot initiative creating civil unions for gay couples.)

For example, two polls in Arizona showed voters opposed to the state marriage amendment, and a South Dakota poll showed voters defeating the amendment by 49 percent to 41 percent. (Other polls in each state suggest wildly different results). Defeating a marriage amendment in either or both of two such red states would be an amazing landmark victory for gay groups.

What do we make of the political situation? Let me begin with the bad news for gay marriage advocates: I predict all eight state marriage amendments will pass.

Nonetheless, the margin of victory in the states that gay marriage advocates have chosen to contest will be narrower than in the past. The good news from their perspective (and expect to hear it trumpeted loudly) is that gay marriage advocates have hit upon a political formula that influences voters at least somewhat.

Here's more pesky bad news: That strategy has almost nothing to do with increasing support for gay marriage. Campaigns in Arizona, Wisconsin and Virginia have largely abandoned marriage itself, and focused instead on generating opposition to domestic partnership provisions. "Why Take Away Health Care?" is the slogan of choice in Arizona, while in Virginia, opponents have marshaled an impressive array of highly credentialed legal experts to advance the improbable argument that the state marriage amendment will prevent unmarried opposite-sex couples from executing private contracts, receiving domestic violence protections or receiving visitation rights. (Virginia's state attorney general recently issued a legal opinion: "I can find no legal basis for the proposition that passage of the marriage amendment will limit or infringe upon the ordinary civil and legal rights of unmarried Virginians.")

I predict another piece of good news for gay rights groups: Colorado will pass domestic partnership legislation. That victory in Colorado suggests a possible new strategy for gay rights groups: Stop promoting gay marriage and start vigorously advocating for civil unions.

Doing so would create a powerful new wedge issue on their side, substantially separating Catholics from evangelicals, and moderates from harder-core religious conservatives. It's an obvious winning political strategy.

But here's the problem for gay rights groups. Civil union initiatives substantially undercut public support for gay marriage. The Human Rights Campaign's own latest poll shows that, when offered a choice of civil unions, only 21 percent of Americans continue to support gay marriage.

After vigorously denouncing civil unions as a despised "separate but equal" insult, can gay rights groups switch course and invest their time and resources in passing civil union laws that offer their people "second-class citizenship"?

Interesting times ahead.

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About The Author

Maggie Gallagher is a nationally syndicated columnist, a leading voice in the new marriage movement and co-author of The Case for Marriage: Why Married People Are Happier, Healthier, and Better Off Financially.

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Question about civil unions
Not living in any of those eight states, I haven't followed this too closely, though Ms. Gallagher is right: it does look interesting. Exactly what legal benefits would be confined to married couples should these amendments pass? Would there still be some form of a civil union for couples (straight or gay) that are co-habitating?

And, on a side note, the first thought that jumped across my head after I read this article was in reference to the picture:

Dr. George is gay!?


Journalist?
Why would any journalist association invite Maggie Gallagher to speak?

We all know that she is no more a journalist than.... let's see now.... Jeff Gannon or Armstrong Williams.

Maggie Gallagher is just a mouthpiece for the Bush Administration and collects GOP checks to run around the country pretending to be an independent journalist.

Dear Ms. Gallagher...
...Please don't go! The last think a conservative should do is speak before a fruit loop group. No good will come of it and they will use your appearance to score propaganda points. So please turn back!

Now a question: why do you write that "doing so (advocating for civil unions) would create a powerful new wedge issue on their side, substantially separating Catholics from evangelicals, and moderates from harder-core religious conservatives?" Most Catholics are of the same mind as evangelicals on the sanctity of marriage and the so-called "moderates" are disappearing as the nation polarizes along ideological or philosophical lines.

Another question: why do you see this as "an obvious winning political strategy?" It's NOT obvious to anyone but the left, and in their case it amounts to wishful thinking.


Hopefully Colorado
WILL pass the marriage amendment and NOT pass the
civil union referendum. From my understanding, the referendum for civil unions has language which could be "reinterpreted"(liberal judge anyone?) based on the definition of the word "spouse." This may have an affect on how voters see this referendum and in turn keep it from passing.

Once again...
...Steve, the Great Negator.

Civil Unions are a workable
compromise. The struggle for GLBT rights must be understood as a years and decades long progress. Time is definately on our side, and every victory won at the ballot box rather then the courts paves the way to evenyually vote out the discrimination passed today. My congratulations to Maggie Grallagher for agreeing to appear at this conference.

Civil unions == Gay activists' defeat
Homosexual activists will not be satisfied with civil unions, no matter how many benefits are attached to them. Their target is marriage, with full State recognition, because:

1. It's Western society's most fundamental, most normative institution;
2. It would fatally undermine all efforts, private or public, to curb homosexual outreach to American youngsters.

Therefore, if the fifty states enact "civil union" legislation but define marriage to exclude same-sex couples, the gay activists will regard it as a defeat. Assuredly, they won't sit down and shut up.

I'm with Krystalbird
What is Steve's problem? Maggie Gallagher is no more George Bush's mouthpiece, nor less of a journalist than any other of the conservative columnists in Townhall. If Steve is a liberal and gay apologist, let him transfer his rants to some George Soros blog. Townhall is for serious conservatives. If he is not a liberal or gay apologist, let him proudly support Maggie in her efforts to make the United States more marriage minded. Maybe the National Press Club function to which Maggie is invited to speak will be attended by gay and lesbian journalists who want to find out what the opposition is talking about in their efforts to get gay marriage approved. I have no doubt that Maggie Gallagher will hold her own in this venue, regardless if she meets the criteria established by Steve to be a "journalist"!

As to Celtic-Dragon
The "struggle" of GLBT's has nothing to do with "discrimination", but an attempt by gays to be recognized as "mainstream" and normal, which will never happen. The one-sided votes in the states outlawing gay marriage should be a clue that gay marriage will never be accepted in the United States. No one desires to deny civil rights to GLBT's, and marriage is not a civil right. Civil unions are not and never will be marriage.

Be Careful
Colorado citizens better vote carefully. If "civil unions" for gays is approved it will only be used as a stepping stone towards gay marriage. "If we can have this, why can't we have that? - they're almost the same thing."

The gay activists wll not rest until their abnormal lifestyle is publicly accepted as normal. Civil unions, gay marriage, gays in the military, reversing sodomy laws, etc. are not the end goals – they are simply tactics designed to slowly chip away at our society’s traditions and beliefs.

Cancer doesn't kill you in a day - it can take years.

Steve's typical liberal response
Will a secular liberal progressive explain what their basis is for "civil" rights," and by what foundation they provide boundaries? Is it based upon human wisdom and intellect? Education? Thomas Jefferson and the founders established the boundaries in the opening two paragraphs of America's founding document, where "unalienable Rights" were to be "entitled" ONLY if they DO NOT violate "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God." James Madison, the author of our Constitution told Jefferson, “On the distinctive principles of the Government...of the U. States, the best guides are to be found in...The Declaration of Independence, as the fundamental Act of Union of these States.” And President James Madison on June 20, 1785 stated: "Before any man can be considered as a member of Civilized Society, he must first be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe."

So Steve, on what foundation do secular liberal progessives provide "entitlements?" Perhaps we should see what Darwin had to say? Or is it the same weak, twisted, and distorted view that all Judeo-Christians are discriminatory, where they have been succesful in deceiving many politicians, judges, and even educators under the guise of safety and bullying into redefining words like hate, bigotry, fear, tolerance, diversity, normal. morlas, and values? Steve might do well to first with Kevin Jennings to learn what his "virtues" are.





uwcharlie
The struggle of LGBT people has EVERYTHING to do with discrimination. Many states and the federal government still permit workplace discrimination based on sexual orientation.

And as far as marriage goes, I find it pretty humorous that you think it will "never" happen. Just in the past 10 years, poll numbers of those not opposed to gay marriage have been steadily increasing. Sorry to burst your bubble, but time most definitely is not on your side.

Finally, I am sure that most of you caught Cal Thomas' piece last week on declining marriage rates. A point that I am sure many of you missed, however, was that in the situations he described, heterosexuals are the ones responsible for devaluation of the institution of marriage. The now majority of American households (presumably heterosexual) that are not married have absolutely nothing to do with the same-sex marriage debate. If so many want to preserve family values and traditional marriage, same-sex marriage is the least of the problems ailing the institution here in America.

Defense of What?
You know, maybe rather than spending all their time and resources on negative "defending marriage" energy, people like Maggie out to be out spending positive energy promoting it.

Just a thought.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2006/10/25/notes102506.DTL

It's true. Despite the wailings of the fundamentalists and the stomping of little conservative feet and in part thanks to the hateful Defense of Marriage Act preventing gays from legalizing their love, traditional marriage is no longer the dominant setup in the American home. The foremost model now: single people shacking up. Living together. Having sex and buying groceries and hogging the covers and fighting about who didn't do the goddamn dishes and then not having sex anymore.

And maybe not even getting married at all. Like, ever.

There are now 14 million single-mom households in the United States, according to the last census. There are five million single-dad households. And there are over 37 million unmarried gay or hetero couples living together in households looked upon by the Religious Right in America as wrongheaded heathen sinful ignorance of God. Grand total: about 50.2 percent, versus 49.8 percent for the marrieds. Ahh, ain't it refreshing?

The real issue is benefits!
There is only ONE reason the gays want legalized marriages and that is money. They want to be eligible for all the benefits now offered to a married couple consisting of a man and a woman. All the other arguments they offer for this change is only smoke, mirrows and BS! Please tell me why anyone should be given special consideration just because of their sexual preference? It just does not make any sence to me.

Puftwaffe, you are mistaken!
I am one of those conservatives that you referred to in an derogatory way. I know that there aere many hetero couples co-habitating and I know that fornication is a sin. I also know that homosexual couples living together, according to the Bible is also a sin. I know that homosexuals like to skip over the part when God destroyed Sod0m and Gomorrah for the Abomination of homosexuality, which is a sin that God will not tolerate. I know that our world is very goofed up and I cannot begin to solve the many problems in it. All I can do is pray for it and vote my conscience, which is something I do. I sincerely believe that homosexual marriage is wrong, and I vote that way. I do not believe that homosexuals should have more rights that other Americans and they are pushing for them. For them to compre their striving to the Equal Rights movements for Blacks is ludicis. Blacks did not choose their skin color, but gays choose their lifestyle, which is their only claim to the special rights they are demanding.
LIBERAL_DOG
I actually think Maggie presented a plainly balanced opinion and there was no hate-filled negative language in it. You, like most liberals, accuse people of hate speech when they speak the truth in love. When the word make you uncomfortable, you accuse them of negativity.
Get used to it! Christians only want to let people know that Jesus is coming again and we must be ready. One day we will all kneel before God and none of us will be innocent.
His standards are so far above us we cannot possibly attain them. Our only hope is through the shed blood of Jesus. We either claim Him as our Savior or we do not. He is our only hope.

You got it Fred...
...I have always thought this.But,I really have questions about "Civil Unions".Would Civil Unions apply to an elderly woman living with her unmarried son? Do they get the same tax benefits as married couples?Two old maid sisters living together? Will the Federal government recognize Civil Unions for income tax purposes as if they were married? How about a bunch of guys or gals living together in the same household.Will they get the same tax benefits or more importantly the benefits of local and state governments give to married couples,probably throwing their budgets into chaos?

So many questions,so little answers.Can anyone help?

Tap001
Please demonstrate where in my previous post I "referred to [conservatives and/or you] in an derogatory way". I was merely pointing out that those who are so concerned about family values and traditional marriage are spending an inordinate amount of time concentrating on what 5% of the population MIGHT be able to do instead of what over 50% are ACTUALLY doing.

To Icedog01
You are so right! I think that is why the civil union referendum in Colorado is worded the way it is, just so that the gays can come back and have it "reinterpreted" to mean gay marriage.If passed, it would be leaving an opening for further legal action; which I believe was most likely what the gay lobby planned from the beginning since they knew the marriage amendment in all probability would pass. I do think that gays are desperately seeking to be publicly accepted, as "normal," the ultimate stamp of approval on the gay lifestyle.

Fred, you are so right as well. The benefits would appear to be a huge motivating factor, but I really believe the acceptance of gay as normal is even more of a factor.

As to the comment made about more and more people showing support for gay marriage: this is because, for years, younger generations have had it crammed down their throat that they are bigoted, homophobic, intolerant, ignorant etc. if the gay lifestyle is not accepted. Many of these supposed supporters have perhaps not married or started their own families, which could make a difference on how they feel about gay marriage.

Why do you call them "gay"
I don't think that there is anything gay about them and I resent the fact that they want to LABEL themselves by using a perfectly good word that has nothing to do with them. They only use that word because they want to make everything homosexual "SOUND" nice and normal so that it will be more acceptable. They are striving to make themselves and their perverted lifestyle acceptable to everyone else. They don't want to call it SODOMY, it's a loving relationship. Everything they say is to make homosexuality so nice that it can be accepted as a society that has no moral compass due to having been brainwashed by the secular humanists in the public schools and in the MSM media. Have you paid attention to what is on TV and in all the magazines and newspapers recently? They are all pushing the homosexual perversion as no different than heterosexual relationships. Every program has a homosexual character who has a nice personality and is good looking. The news stories tell us how a particular homosexual is doing so many good things in society and how they are such a nice person. If you believe all that propaganda for the homosexual agenda, then you are incapable to thinking. I don't believe that most people want to see and read all about what homosexuals do, say or think. It's SO obvious that it is propaganda because even the homosexuals themselves wil tell you that at most there are only 5 % of the people who are homosexual. How is it then that there is a homosexual in almost every TV program, movie, newspaper and magazine? I am sure that I have business dealings with homosexuals, but I never know it because they are NOT trying to flaunt their perversion in front of me. I hav worked with homosexuals on jobs and, although they were not my close friends, I never treated them unkindly or differently than any other person. Nor would I be in favor of attacking them in any way. I rented my property to two different homosexual couples and one couple were good renters and one wasn't.

I am against homosexuals trying to CRAM their perversions down my throat. They can't be married because marriage is between one man and one woman and any other relationship is NOT marriage.

Truthbetold
With regard to "sodomy" (anal AND oral intercourse), the number of heterosexual Americans that engage in it vastly dwarf the number of homosexuals who do. Is one somewhow worse than the other?

Puftwaffe and Liberal Dialog
Very interesting debate angle...."there are marriage problems, so we should allow gay marriage too."

Maybe we could apply the same logic to our other major issues...

We have an illegal alien problem....so we should go to Mexico and bus many more illegals into the country...we could even offer them $1000 of our money to get them started.

We're worried about terrorists blowing up things in the US so we should just destroy all of our buildings before they get a chance.

Schools are failing...so let's just get rid of them...and all the books...who needs them anyway?

Great ideas....and people say liberals have twisted views.

Icedog01
Please reread my post and provide an example of where I specifically advocate same-sex marriage. Once again for those that have difficulty comprehending, the entire point of the post was to show that supposed supporters of traditional marriage and family values have much bigger problems to address than what such a small percentage of the population is trying to do. It just seems pretty ridiculous to me to stick your finger in a small hole in the levy when a ten foot section is missing right next to you.

Questions
To be clear, I'm against the legalization of gay marriage. But I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second:

Francis W. Porretto says...

"Homosexual activists will not be satisfied with civil unions, no matter how many benefits are attached to them. Their target is marriage, with full State recognition, because:

1. It's Western society's most fundamental, most normative institution;
2. It would fatally undermine all efforts, private or public, to curb homosexual outreach to American youngsters."

-- I hear this attitude a lot from conservatives. And it baffles me that people who are supposed to be advocates for individualism deny individualism to homosexuals. Do you think any homosexual, anywhere, is actually going around thinking "I want to undermine Western society's most fundamental institution?" It's not like all homosexuals are unified about this issue, either. Take lesbian pundit Tammy Bruce, for example, who does not believe in the legalization of gay marriage, either.

Not Ashamed to Be Right says...
"Many of these supposed supporters have perhaps not married or started their own families, which could make a difference on how they feel about gay marriage."

-- Um, I just don't get this. Please explain how getting married or starting your own family would change your opinions about whether or not someone else should marry or start a family. Just curious.

Truthbetold
You have no problem flaunting your "perversions" on other people. I guarentee that your attitudes are offensive to other people, but you reserve your right to force your views on those around you. Hypocrisy is always so amusing.

Puftwaffe
Your post was a response to uwcharlie’s comment about gay marriage not being about discrimination…and you stated, "The struggle of LGBT people has EVERYTHING to do with discrimination."

I interpreted this to mean you were advocating for gay marriage (so as not to discriminate against them); however I guess it could be taken completely the other way and your statement was actually arguing for the right to discriminate against gays. If this is what you meant – my bad.

The real issue..
I have been an admirer of Ms. Gallagher for a long time. She is inddependent, astute, and can back up arguments with facts. Where I disagree with her and the rest of the marriage in danger crowd is their perception of threat. The real threat to marriage is not homosexuals pretending to be 'married', but the no-fault divorce laws in 49 states which have been given a plain sailing by conservatives (never mind the liberals). If Gallagher and the President really want to protect marriage, let them do the truly courageous thing: speak up and organize against the disgusting practice known as no-fault divorce.

uwcharlie
"No one desires to deny civil rights to GLBT's, and marriage is not a civil right."


Guess again. According to the SCOTUS 1967 decision overturning the Virginia law banning inter-racial marriage, Marriage is a "fundamental" civil right!!!! There is no language in the Constitution that says you have a right to sleep either, but the founding fathers evidently thought some things were too obvious to have to spell out for everyone, no matter how obtuse they chose to be.

puftwaffe writes
"With regard to "sodomy" (anal AND oral intercourse), the number of heterosexual Americans that engage in it vastly dwarf the number of homosexuals who do. Is one somewhow worse than the other?".

puftwaffe is trying to make homosexual behavior morally equivalent to heterosexual behavior. The fact that hetero couples may participate in sexual practices similar to those of gays is not the point. The point is homosexual behavior itself.

Most opponents of gay marriage oppose it because of the its actual and potential damage to our culture. That marriage and traditional morality have declined in practice in this country is obvious to even the most casual observer. The crusade against gay marriage is an attempt by those who value our traditional culture.

celtic-dragon
You make a very observant point about the Founding Fathers and their, we presume, assumption that some things were too obvious to need spelling out. For instance, in the 1770's who could have dreamed that the American people would someday need to be told that marrage is between a man and a woman.

Icedog01
My original comment on discrimation was not meant to validate its application to the marriage debate. However, to say that LGBT people do not still face discrimination is ridiculous. As noted previously, many states and the federal government still permit hiring and firing based on sexual orientation alone. If you support such discrimation in the workplace, then you are not a conservative since a conservative would only care about the quality of the individual's work. It would also be idiotic to argue against the notion that SOME people who oppose same sex marriage do so for the sole purpose of expressing bigotry toward homosexuals. But, I am not willing at this point to describe the entire movement in those terms. I think most people that oppose same-sex marriage are well-meaning in their efforts. But as we all know, best intentions don't always lead to the most correct outcomes.

jimmyrick
"puftwaffe is trying to make homosexual behavior morally equivalent to heterosexual behavior. The fact that hetero couples may participate in sexual practices similar to those of gays is not the point. The point is homosexual behavior itself."

You have completely discredited your own argument, such as it was. You have no problem with straight couples engaging in private bedroom "sodomy"...you just hate gay people for doing it.

jimmyrick
When BOTH heterosexuals and homosexuals engage in "sodomy" (not to mention that VASTLY more straights engage in it), I don't need to TRY and equate the two. It is already done for me. If you want to attack homosexual behavior on grounds that are NOT shared with our heterosexual brothers, please feel free. Until then, refrain from mentioning sodomy as if that is the domain solely of homosexuals when so many more heterosexuals routinely practice it.

Puftwaffe
Twice you've mentioned, "states and federal government hiring and firing for being gay".

Can you please provide evidence. Do you have a federal job ad stating, "Must not be gay" or an individual who lost their state job for "Being Gay". Don't even try the "Don't ask, don't tell" law in the military. You are allowed to be gay in the military.

I've seen gay groups wanting a piece of the affirmative action laws, but never "straights only" laws.

New Dilemmas
Reading the column and the responses above it appears that the dilemmas cut both ways. Opponents of same-sex marraige need to decide whether to support civil unions, or the equivalent. Ms Gallagher seems to be in favor on the grounds that allowing civil unions cuts support for gay marraige.
But Francis Porretto is certainly right that gay marraige advocates would take civil unions as a stepping stone and not a final solution.
And since, as was noted above, opposition to gay marraige is largely generational, as time goes on support for both civil unions and gay marraige is likely to increase, the question of which is the better defensive approach is not an insignificant one. So I guess one has to decide whether to oppose civil unions and alienate the middle which doesn't like gay marraige but doesn't like to appear to discriminate against homosexuals either, or to mollify the middle while giving a partial victory to the supporters of gay marraige.
Civil Unions would be something like a vaccine designed to innoculate against the disease. Not clear it would work though.

puftwaffe, celtic
My point was that the important argument is between legitimizing homosexual behavior versus heterosexual behavior. Soldiers and terrorists both engage in similar behavior - i.e. -killing. What separates them is their differing reasons for that behavior. Therefore, claiming both are morally equivalent because they engage in similar behavior is fallacious. I am advancing the same argument here: that trying to make homosexual and heterosexual behavior morally equivalent just because both engage in some similar behaviors is just as fallacious.

It is of little consequence to me what either group does behind closed doors. What does matter to me is when the advocacy of such behavior presents a danger to our society and our culture.

Lon
Very good points...and I agree with most of your comments. However, if a "vaccine" only postpones the disease.....

Dear celtic_dragon
An FYI RE: "the SCOTUS 1967 decision overturning the Virginia law banning inter-racial marriage, marriage is a 'fundamental' civil right."

That decision declared this "right" out of legal whole cloth, the same whole cloth used six years later to rule that abortion was a "fundamental" right. The court in that era was in thrall of the notion that the Constitution was a "living document" that was "evolving" in response to "human progress," a term which meant change in a leftward or liberal direction. Though most people in that era did not know it, this notion was a muted form of the Marxist belief in the historical inevitability of the communist utopia. In reality, marriage (in the traditional sense)is a natural right because it existed prior to the Constitution. Heck, it doubtless existed prior to any and all constitutions.

Dear Lon
RE: "And since, as was noted above, opposition to gay marraige is largely generational, as time goes on support for both civil unions and gay marraige is likely to increase..." Really? Upon what do you base that on? The left's notion of historical inevitability or wishful thinking, or both?

Robert E Lee
Have you honestly not seen a gradual shift in society's general attitudes toward homosexuals over the last 100 years? If you have, which direction do you think this shift is heading? If you haven't, then you might be included in the wishful thinking crowd.

If marriage is a right...
...why does gov't feel obligated to regulate it through the issuance of licenses? There are laws against youths marrying before a certain age, but if marriage were a right, then clearly these laws are in violation of that right. But of course, no rational person would agree that it is a good thing for children to be married off, either to one another or older people.

I foresee only one feasible solution: for the states to get out of the "marriage" business altogether, and issue civil contracts that can be between any two people (not just husband-wife, a gay couple, but perhaps even father-son, uncle-nephew, etc) that would entail the rights of familial inheritance, etc, in lieu of a living will. Meanwhile, the churches could sanction and recognize "marriage" as they define it.

But I can still see problems with this as well. There really is no easy solution, until society comes to the conclusion that "alternative" lifestyles are counterproductive to society.

Icedog01
"Don't ask don't tell" is perfectly applicable since once a person is known to be homosexual, he or she is subject to discharge. Not only that, but a homosexual applicant that is honest will almost certainly be denied entry. However, that policy is not the entire issue.
Every state, including Florida where I live, that does not list sexual orientation in its EEO laws allows discrimination in the workplace. The same is also true of EEO laws covering federal employment. There is no legal recourse in such cases unless it also happens to be a right to work state.

Lon
My concern over civil unions would be how do the laws of one state affect another. If a couple are united through a civil union in say New Jersey and for whatever circumstances relocate to Oklahoma. If Oklahoma has no similar laws regarding this, then will their civil union be binding in Oklahoma?

If so, why? Why should one state be required to adapt the same laws regarding this as another? Unless you are willing to grant federal jurisdiction further into individual states issues and e all know how well the Feds handle things.

If not, why? These people entered into what is essentially a legal binding contract in the state of New Jersey and by all fairness this contract should be honored in all these United States. Enter Feds stage left.

My personal opinion is that gays-lesbians-bis-trans-multiplexes-whatever can accomplish essentially the same ends by naming beneficiaries on insurance policies and wills, naming of executors in living wills, joint bank accounts, power of attorney, etc. There are any number of things that can be done which allow people to function smoothly in our society without the need of redefining marriage.

Leroy
The full faith and credit clause of the US Constitutions obligates the states to recognize contracts and licenses issued by the other states. Thats why your driver's license and marriage license transfer from state to state. A civil union would function no differently.

This is the same dillema that states faced when rogue states like CA wanted to issue driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. The immigrants could then move to other states and easily transfer their license (which could then be used to take advantage of a host of services), even though the other states' licensing procedures and requirements were far more rigorous.

Kimberly
The reality of life is that we are forced to deal with multiple issues at one time. We can't discuss one, solve it, and then move on to the next. Particularly in the US, in which our Federal gov't is expected to deal with both international and domestic issues.

There are several dozen other columns and threads about what is going on in Afghanistan. Please find one.

JohnUnderhill
I am not sure about seeing the past 100 years of history, I've some time under my belt but not quite that much.

I will grant there has been a societal change in how we perceive gays and it seemed to me that most of it occured as AIDS was taking it's highest toll on that population. This will sound callous but the American public was bombarded by handwringing and moaning. There were endless calls for more government programs, more money, more education, more money, more involvement and more government money. Anyone not idetifying with the gay population at that time was labeled a heartless bigot, worse yet a Republican. So you could say a good bit of this shift is a result of manipulation. Nobody wanted to be the one who stood up to say the gay community was literally sodomizing itself to death, but that is what was happening and the rest of us were being lead down the path of acceptance.

Regulation of marriage
Government has been regulated marriage through the church for centuries. It has been recognized in Europe and the US for a very long time that some people just shouldn't marry one another. Obviously, fathers shouldn't marry their daughters and brothers shouldn't marry their sisters and that was clearly condemned in most of society for a long time. However, as time went along and people learned more about the effects of intermarriage, the government regulated whether cousins could marry. People objected to this because some cultural groups habitually married their cousins, but the consequences of repeated cousin marriage were substantial enough to warrant governmental oversight.

We don't know the unintended consequences of interracial marriage. So far, it doesn't seem to be a problem and I doubt it will be, but if it presents one in the future, the government should step in and stop it.

We know that cohabitation has not worked out really well as a child-raising system. Being the child of a heterosexual common law marriage, I can tell you that it STINKS and, while I loved my parents dearly, I wish they'd thought of me rather than themselves on that issue. All you out there who think you're not hurting anyone, including your children, by shacking up instead of marrying are dead wrong and that's coming from someone who supposedly wasn't hurt by it. Unintended consequences are often not even visible until some buttons get pushed. The old Biblical adage about the "sins of the fathers visited unto the seventh generation" means exactly that. What you decide to do this generation may well adversely affect your offspring 50 or 100 years from now, long after you're past caring. The strictures against shacking up in the old days were sensible, even if we no longer recognize that.

Homosexual behavior has always been condemned in Western society (as well in most other societies). You can say it's discrimination, but in reality it is because people have perceived a risk to society that they felt best to avoid. Just because you don't recognize it doesn't mean that the majority of society is wrong; more likely it means you're ignorant (ignoring or refusing to acknowledge evidence). Until a gene is discovered that causes homosexuality, we're still discussing a lifestyle choice and we should not be sanctioning harmful lifestyle choices.

The idea that the government could sanction any civil union and everything would be A-OK while the churches perform meaningless marriage ceremonies is folly. Government needs to regulate some behaviors for the good of society. That's why we form governments, in order to express the collective will of the people.

And, by the way, those of you out there who think time is on the homosexual side -- I thought your behavior was creepy when I was young, but I didn't see a reason to advocate against it until you started pushing it into my face every time I turned around. Now, I see both your behavior and your political activism as harmful to society and I'm pushing back. Time is on your side only if people don't notice what you're doing, but when you're obnoxious, people take notice and they fight back. The marriage amendments in so many states would not have happened if homosexuals had just kept their creepy practices in private and not tried to force the rest of us to go against our own good sense and accept it as normal. You got nobody to blame but yourselves. Just an observation.

icthomasva
My TDL allows me to drive in another state, however should I decide to take up residence in another state I would have to obtain a drivers license from that state. If I'm not mistaken, and I may well be, that other state may have the option of re-testing my driving skills, essentially meaning I would have to meet their criteria for a license.

As the conditions of marriage have been fairly consistent the last few milinia throughout not just the US but most of the world I can see where that particular license is transferable from state to state. The rub occurs when one or more states decide they want to recognize alternate definitions marriage, how then do other states retain their sovereignty over these decisions or would they even be allowed to. We are fast becoming a nation made up of congressional districts and less a nation of individual states united for specific and limited common causes.

aurorawatcher
I wasn't necessarily pointing out individual's aptness to become more in favoe of gay marriage over time, but society as a whole. This can be seen by looking at the generational breakdown. For example, I searched quickly online and found a FoxNews poll from 2004 which broke down people's percentage of support by age group. Here are the results:
Do you favor same-sex marriage?
Age 18-29 44%
30-45 30%
46-55 29%
56-64 22%
65+ 11%

Leroy
The states sacrificed much of their sovereignty under the Constitution to one another and to the Federal gov't. Agreed, states are becoming less sovereign and more like administrative districts.

Perhaps a driver's license is not the best example, as it is not generally considered a right (except by illegal immigrants and bleeding hearts). But a contract for marriage must be recognized by each state under the Constitution. No doubt you've heard of adolescent lovers eloping to states with lenient marriage requirements. Even though Ohio might not marry people under 16, they would be required to recognize the marriage of a 16 year old girl had she eloped to Kentucky (example, I don't know the actual requirements).

jcthomasva
jc,my apologies I believe I referred to you as "ic" previously,unintentional error on my part.

I understand your meaning on the universal acceptance of a marriage license throughout the US. I don't think foriegn citizens taking up residence in the US are required to re-marry either. But this is all because the basic premise behind the institution of marriage is universally consistant. Now, were a 55 year old man to immigrate into America from some off the wall country with a 9 year old wife he had leagally married back home, I am not sure allowances would be made for that marriage to stand in the US. Yes an extreme example but just using it for the sake of argument.

And the notion that legitimizing gay marriage will lead to allowing for polygamist marriage is not at all far fetched. Celtic-Dragon is one of the leading posters on this site and his particular interest is in the Gay-Lesbian-Bisexual-Transexual community. I think he would agree that in order for a person of Bisexual tendancies to be complete in this context would mean granting that person the legal ability to marry. Being bisexual would in itself negate a monogamous relationship. It would require that person to be allowed to marry at least one person of each gender. What of the classic polygamist with multiple wives, who are we to say those people do not all love one another as deeply as my wife and myself do each other?

It's sort of like pulling on that short string poking out of your sock. It don't look like much at first but as you pull on it a bit here and a bit there, pretty soon the whole sock unravels.

and then there is MASSACHUSETTS!
Where not one registered voter will be given the opportunity to even vote their choice - we, the common men and women, are not allowed to make any such decisions...after all, we have the Massachusetts Supreme Judiciary to tell us all we need to know - and a legislature that somehow finds it impossible to get the subject matter on the agenda of the constitutional convention. For a state with many top universities, I guess the intelligence of its citizens is still questionable. Am I mad??? YES!

The bottom of the slippery slope
What is at the bottom of the slippery slope? One of my favorite authors put it this way -
"Nature is content with little, grace with less, lust with nothing."

Aurorawatcher,
Superb post! You said it all and with wonderful clarity. I could not agree more with your comment about pushing back, since I am one of those who is now doing just that. Thankfully there are many more who are choosing to push back as well.

JohnUnderhill,
In that Fox poll, how many people were questioned? I think those figures represent younger people well in that they simply do not have the years of wisdom and experience to consider the ramifications of same sex marriage. They may also think it is "cool" to answer that they are in favor because this is showing how tolerant and diverse they are in their thinking.
This comes as no surprise given that this is pretty much how they have been programmed to think for many of their young years through schools and the media (constantly cramming the gay lifestyle down their throats and being told the behavior if perfectly normal.)

Taking her seriously....
I saw the Maggie on C-span last night. All the energy, all the fire, all the passion are gone.

It's amazing that so many fellow Townhaller's continue to fall for her dog-and-pony act when it seems that she isn't even believing it herself anymore.

not ashamed to be right
It was a survey of 900 registered voters with a margin of error of +/- 3%, but I've seen plenty others like it (I just cited the FoxNews one since that is one that people here are more likely to believe). I disagree with your assesment of the younger generation's attitudes though. I think it is that they haven't had the years of it being crammed down their throats that there is something wrong with homosexuality.

Greatful to know to Truth
JohnUnderhill,

John you must come up from under that hill. The reason gay marriage as they call it, is not marriage at all, is simply this. Marriage is and always has been in the true sense of its meaning, A Man and a Woman, coming together as One, thus bringing life into that union, thus forming the family. In so-called gay, lesbian, transgender and all other forms of deviant unions, they must always bring others into their so-called marriage, thus bring the meaning of marriage and parents into many avenues. Man and woman, husband and wife, mother and father is the marriage and family. This allows for the parents to raise their children as the responiblity of their morals, values, principals and human decency allow,thus permitting the natural and noraml course of the family and thriving from generation to generation. This is the way of life, it keeps everything and everyone focused on what is truely important, and phyically and mentally sound. Why this imformation is not focused on today is a matter of what brings in more money and need for many drugs, therapist, doctors and counciling. Great for big bussiness and government. Great to control the people and bring them from normalacy to depending on all types of programs. Is this what you want for your family????

I'm just a poor boy
I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me, anyway the wind blows, does'nt really matter, I'm easy come, easy go, little high little low. No wonder the kid's today don't know the truth!!!

Dear JohnUnderhill
RE: "Have you honestly not seen a gradual shift in society's general attitudes toward homosexuals over the last 100 years? If you have, which direction do you think this shift is heading?"

Of course, I have seen it, but that trend is NOT inevitable. My point was that the left argues that history moves in only one direction and the "clock (as they say) cannot be turned back." Nonsense. You are taking too short a view. In the past 2,000 years in what we call the West, homosexuality (and sexuality in general) was practiced and indulged in about as openly as now in several eras. Other eras were were marked by not-so-open sexual expression. All that can be truly said of history on this issue is that attitudes and policies toward sexuality vary (probably based upon, I quess, whatever group controls fashionable opinion in any given era). In plainer English, what was done in the past can be done in the future. In even plainer English, the trends you see are by no means inevitable or irreversible. To say otherwise is to engage in ideologically-inspired wishful thinking.

cramming sexuality....
I don't think it is fair to say that I am cramming my sexuality down anyones throat just because I hold hands, hug or kiss my partner in public. If this behavior is offensive then nobody should engage in it.

Blasterboy:
As our friends on Sesame Street would say,
"Three of these things belong together
Three of these things are kind of the same
But one of these things is doing its own thing
And now it's time to play our game..."
1) man and woman
2) yin and yang
3) male and female
4) Adam and Steve
As aurorawatcher said, keep your "creepy practices in private."

What Has Happened to Our Country
Homosexuality is a sin, no better or no worse than other sins, however, it shouldn't be condoned or even worse, legitimized.

Unfortuanetly, the proliferation of sexual sins, divorce, abortion, and complacency in the Christian Church has let Satan get a foot hold.

Every civilization that has embraced homosexuality has fallen. So yes, if we want our country to be judged harshly by God, then by all means, vote in favor of civil unions for same-sex couples.



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