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Friday, September 28, 2007
Lorie Byrd :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Petraeus Effect
by Lorie Byrd
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What a difference a day makes.  Or rather, several days and quite a few hours of congressional testimony and public statements regarding the status of the troop “surge” in Iraq from General David Petraeus.  Not only are the leading Democrats running for President not calling for immediate withdrawal, but they won’t even say that if they were President the troops would be out of Iraq by the end of their four year term.

In a debate this week, Hillary Clinton said, “It is very difficult to know what we're going to be inheriting."  John Edwards said “I cannot make that commitment.”

It is pretty evident now why MoveOn.org and many Democrats were so determined to undermine the testimony of General David Petraeus, leader of U.S. forces in Iraq, with attack ads and questions about the veracity and independence of his report.  His testimony made a difference.  Even most Americans who don’t like the war, don’t want to lose it.  News of progress is making a difference in the debate over the war in Iraq, and no where is the result more significant than in the leadership of the Democratic party.

Although many of the Democrat politicians understand that some things have changed since the Petraeus report, many of the liberal anti-war activists don’t.  A liberal blogger commenting on Elizabeth Dole’s re-election chances in North Carolina recently wrote, “UP: Her top assets are the sheer awesomeness of incumbency and that George W. Bush is not on the ballot.  DOWN: GWB isn’t on the ballot, but his war is.”  Not only are the Democrats’ chances for the presidency heavily dependent on bad news coming from Iraq and an unsuccessful war to run against, but so are Democrats’ prospect for holding the Senate.  Bottom line – bad news from Iraq has been good news for many Democrats running for office.

Beyond the political considerations relating to voters, though, a shift in the rhetoric and actions of leading Democrats regarding Iraq has an effect on those base supporters and groups so important to organizing and raising money.   I can’t count how many times I have heard since the 2006 election that the electoral success of the Democrats was a statement on the Iraq war and proved that voters wanted us out of there now.  Democrats already lost Cindy Sheehan (which I would count ultimately as a win for them) and could be in danger of losing others in the anti-war movement as candidates are backing away from their previous calls for withdrawal.

At Right Wing News, John Hawkins makes a good point with the following question: “So, if Hillary, Barack, and Edwards now have the same position as Rudy, Fred, Mitt, & McCain, you have to ask, who should America trust more to handle Iraq in 2009? The candidates who took that position early on because they thought it was the right thing to do, even though they knew the Democrats could use it against them at the polls, or the Democrats who've taken that position because they feel it's a political necessity after David Petraeus' testimony?”

In addition to the point Hawkins makes about those allowing war policy to be driven by political considerations, voters should ask another question about the way their potential leaders have approached the issues surrounding the Iraq war.  Who should Americans trust more to handle Iraq in 2009?  Those who thought we should act on threats, those who believe we should act on threats until the polls change, or those who believe such things should be left to the UN? 

Which category of candidate makes the most sense to hold the office of president? 

The first group consists of those who made the tough decision that knowing what we knew then, we needed to act against a brutal leader most every intelligence agency in the world believed to possess WMD and a willingness to use it.  Those in the first category refused to cut and run when the news was less than good and polls had turned against the war.  Instead, they chose to support making adjustments and doing the hard work necessary to find a way to win. 

Those in the second group supported the tough decision that knowing what we knew then, we needed to act against the brutal leader most every intelligence agency in the world believed to possess WMD and a willingness to use it, but when public opinion turned against the war they refused to accept the hard work of finding a solution.

Those in the third group decided not to act against a madman leader of a country with an open hatred of the United States believed to possess enough WMD to kill thousands, if not millions, of people.   Those in this group decided that in spite of the attacks of September 11, and in spite of information from Russian intelligence that “Saddam’s special forces were preparing terrorist attacks in the United States ‘and beyond its borders on American military and civilian targets.”

The leading GOP candidates for President fit into the first category, while the leading Democrats running for President fall into the second and third.

It can’t be known now whether or not the success seen so far from the surge in Iraq will continue through the 2008 election, or whether things will fall apart and sentiment against the war effort will turn even more negative.  What is clear though is which party will benefit politically if additional progress is made in Iraq, and which party will not.  That goes a long way toward explaining the recent words and actions of some of the Democrats’ Presidential candidates.

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About The Author

Lorie Byrd is a Townhall.com columnist and blogs at Wizbang and at LorieByrd.com.

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I really think that if asked:
Most Americans want to WIN. NOT LOSE.

Democrats who won seats in 2006 did so mainly because of their stand against illegal invasion, NOT the war in Iraq.

WOW
Once again Warren manages to bring his anti Semitic bigotry into the fore front making the rest of his points mute. Next try try harder to eliminate your apparent loathsome feelings towards the Jews as well as your childishness name calling and instead present a position based on fact rather than conjecture

lilly
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, that does not make it true. I'm sure you could find many more positive opinions regarding General Petraeus than those denegrating him. Funny thing, even I have been the recepient of both good & bad PR. It is a matter of opinion.

well now
I agree with you, many Repubs were disgruntled about the illegal invasion of our country. Only an idiot would want to lose a war & weaken our country.

Lilly 3:01am
During WW2 my father was in the Army Air Corps. He was a pilot, flying P-40's in N. Africa, Sicily, and Italy. His military nick-name was "Chick". It did mean "Chicken-Sh*t". However, in 1942 this nick-name meant that Dad played by the rules. If the Air Corps manual said that before take-off, you stood on one foot and whistled the Star-Spangled Banner; then he did so.

It still means that in today's military (Though I will admit it has a more negative content than it did in 1942). As for the other, more colorful term that Admiral Fallon used, I do know that it takes one to know one.

MoveOn's agenda
"Ms Byrd forgot to mention that Admiral William Fallon, Commander of CENTCOM, called Petraeus "an a**-kissing little chicken-s***". Maybe moveon.org was onto something."

Details as to the when, where, and why of the puported quote would be nice.

Given that MoveOn states in their blogs terms-of-use if one posts anything pro-Bush that poster will be banned from their site is a clear statement that they have an axe to grind.

Who will MoveOn crap on when Bush is no longer President?

John Edwards did tell an MTV crowd last evening that he would end combat assignments in Iraq (not sure what he really means). That doesn't sound like a withdrawal but any troops in country even in a strict supporting role would be a target.

Random thoughts................
1) Can this country possibly elect a President who is this wishy washy on a critical issue?

2) Lilly, dear, Top US military commanders do NOT call other US military commanders bad names, at least not in public.

3) WOW, Warren Small very well be insane.

Rush copies MoveOn
Rush Linbaugh on the radio this week smeared a large number of troops and generals, calling them "phonies!" The fat war dodger must be roundly condemned.

Phylo-Imperious to Facts
Phylo repeats the sheep-like mantra of the anti-war left that the Iraq campaign has been "mishandled" and that it has been "bungled every step of the way".


Too bad for you that this "Big Lie" that's been peddled by the Left and echoed in the Drive By Media is demonstrably false:

FACT: The campaign to topple the Saddam regime was completed in record time with record low casualties. Compare the statistics for the Iraqi campaign with any prior war and it is plain that Phylo et. als. are either idiots or liars.

FACT: The post-Saddam campaign to build Iraq has, again, had record low casualties in the annals of warfare, and all the caterwauling to the contrary have been completely without perspective.

FACT: Despite some initials setbacks (i.e., sometimes in war the enemy has successes too, DUH!) we are now making DECISIVE gains and well on the road to victory. Is this last point debatable? NO, because if it were, then the three leading Dimwitcrat contenders for President wouldn't be furiously backpedaling from their promises to "bring the troops home". Hear any news from Iraq from the Drive Bys lately? Nope, cause they don't have much bad news to report. The good news, of course, is ignored.

It is only the deranged far left who are covering their eyes, plugging their ears, and singing "La La La". Like YOU, Phylo.

This is "The Patreaus Effect": The good news of progress is so overwhelming that even the MSM couldn't contain it, and even the Defeatocrat Leadership has to acknowledge it. Get ready for further disappointment from the Dem Presidential contenders on this score, Phylo. You and your ilk are about to be dumped overboard.

Impeachment and prosecution
...for crimes against humanity (invasion without any evidence of threat against us) and against the constitution (lying before congress as evidenced in the Downing Street memo), is the only response that holds any hope of resolving the war. When the higher power of Law is finally respected then our way of life will actually be considered valuable.

A full investigation of the Pat Tillman murder would show that we have the capability to apply Law universally. An investigation of 911 would show we don't turn the laws of physics into a comedy routine, or allow building owners to collect $3 billion, with a cancelled mortgage, when they allow bombs to be placed all up and down the elevator shafts of two dinosaurs which couldn't be rented out.

And yes, then, as was described in the constitution of this great nation, we use force to defend those actions.

Easy.

Lilly
Maybe Admiral William Fallon, Commander of CENTCOM, is a lilly-livered a**-kissing little chicken-s*** liberal coward or maybe not. It is obvious that for anyone to make a statement such as you continue to paste on TH, they must have a political agenda that is a polar opposite to the person they are trying to insult. Typical Democrat/Liberal approach to a debate or to stiffle debate!

Don C

Don
The list of generals that disapprove of Bush and the war is very long and grows daily.

for Warren Small
Warren Small writes: "Hillary from Noo Yawk Siddy needs Zionist campaign contributions like everyone else, and she needs endorsement from Zionist-owned media"

FYI, the Israelis actually OPPOSED a key aspect of the Bush Iraq war policy. Surprise!

Yes, the Israelis are glad that Saddam is out of power. But coalition forces accomplished that four years ago. They are NOT happy with Bush's war policy since then. The Israelis warned the Bush Administration that Bush's attempt to democratize the Muslim world would likely fail.

Bush has NOT been trying to bring democracy to Iraq because "Zionists" told him to. They told him that was hopeless. Bush has been trying to do that because his neo-conservative brain trust at AEI and the Weekly Standard drew a false analogy between the Communist bloc during the Cold War and the Muslim world today.

for lilly
lilly writes: "Ms Byrd forgot to mention that Admiral William Fallon, Commander of CENTCOM, called Petraeus "an a**-kissing little chicken-s***". Maybe moveon.org was onto something."

Moveon.org is never onto anything.

Fallon and Petraeus WERE definitely at loggerheads. But each was right in his own sphere:

Petraeus has properly demanded a maximum effort for the Iraq surge. But Fallon is very worried that such a maximum effort is depleting our military's ability to respond to threats elsewhere. We used to keep a small but powerful "rapid-reaction" troop force on standby to respond instantly to emergencies anywhere on earth; but it's been sent to Iraq for the surge. Fallon is rightly worried about that.

And yes, that is a major problem that requires a command decision by the Commander-in-Chief. Bush is the boss of both Fallon and Petraeus. Only Bush can decide whether Iraq is so important that we can risk the depletion of our military's ability to deal with other threats to keep waging war in Iraq.

Bush has made that decision. He's supporting Petraeus, though he threw a sop to Fallon by supporting a reduction of surge forces in 2008. Now that the Commander-in-Chief has made his decision, Fallon and Petraeus can both SHUT UP and go back to doing their respective jobs.

That's what happened, and Moveon.Org should just "move on." Because they are getting into an area they know nothing about and their ignorance is showing.

My goodness the trolls are out

Is there a full moon or something?

trughes, especially, needs to loosen the tin foil just a tad:

"An investigation of 911 would show we don't turn the laws of physics into a comedy routine, or allow building owners to collect $3 billion, with a cancelled mortgage, when they allow bombs to be placed all up and down the elevator shafts of two dinosaurs which couldn't be rented out."

How did you manage to escape long enough to log on to the asylum's computer, anyway?

Town Hall or Town Brawl?
I would ask the contributors to these online comments to consider whether you are actually acting in the spirit of the common good? Are you contributing to a real and civil debate? Are you offering facts and argument from an intellectually neutral point of view? Or are you contributing to a growing polarization – a polarization that has recently, and may continue to, lead to gridlock and ineffective governance and the lack of common sense practical solutions to the problems that face our nation.

I would ask posters on all sides of the spectrum to consider whether they find bullying, ad hominem attacks, solely promoting one’s agenda at the expense of looking for common ground, to be the mark of a patriotic American? I do not question for a moment the value of debate and the freedom of expression. But other than for psychological one-upmanship, what really does having an online Town Hall forum promote if not a better America – not a more divided America?

The Petreaus Effect= No Effect..
Current Bush Job Approval Ratings as of 9-16-07:

APPROVE DISAPPROVE

FOX: 34% 58%

CBS: 29% 64%

PEW: 31% 59%

AP/IPSOS:33% 64%

NBC/WSJ: 33% 61%

CNN/ORC: 36% 61%

USAT/GALLUP: 33% 62%

CBSNEWS POLL: 9-16-07

"Do you approve or disapprove of the way President Bush is handling the situation in
Iraq?"

APPROVE: 25% DISAPPROVE: 70%




stormrunner: partisan politics
TownHall is a radically right wing conservative
website. On a daily basis it's mission is to promote conservative viewpoints on politics & support for the most part the Republican party and President Bush.

The articles by TH columnist are by and large very conservative and dissmissive and highly critical of liberals and the democratic party.
Some of the rhetoric by these columnist is highly derisive, inflammatory (Ann Coulter,
David Limbaugh, Michelle Malkin, Hugh Hewitt, et al) and written out of a absolute hatred toward people who dont think as they do. In other words this is a place for like minded
repubs/cons to come and bash libs/dems.

Sure more and more libs/dems like coming in a place like TH because it is political WARFARE
at it's utmost. The country is divided and finding common ground is a grand idea, but that simply isnt what is happening in todays U.S.

Whistling in The Dark
The Retreat to Centrist Positions on Iraq by Shillary, Osama Obama and other Lemmicrats is very telling. Hillary’s bobbing and weaving about the Moron.org ad was even more so. Lastly, Shillary’s Horse Laughing and Stalling in her interview with Chris Wallace was a dead giveaway. She is tap-dancing in a minefield and SHE KNOWS IT! Moron.org bankrolls her. But she can’t with just the support of The Looney Left and SHE KNOWS IT! Typical Clinton Behavior, Shameless Lying, Pandering and Cowardice! I apologize if I offended any horses by comparing them to Shillary.

P.S. WHY is the RACIST ANIMAL, Warren Midget, STILL ALLOWED TO POST ON TOWNHALL?

It doesn't matter...
It doesn't matter what Petraeus says. No one really knows whether it's true or not unless they've been over there.

The fact of the matter is, you can't fund a never ending war with the middle east (possibly going into Iran, Pakistan... where else people?) and expect to lower taxes and reduce the size of government. This will only lead to bankrupting the country.

If you think our economies doing well, look at what it costs to buy everday items like groceries. It's absurd. This is called an inflation tax. Yes, a tax which majorly effects the middle/lower classes. So long as we keep printing out money to cover our losses the value of the dollar is going to decline.

Furthermore, how can we perpetuate a "war against terror" when Osama could be walking across the Rio Grande right now and we wouldnt know? Rediculus.

Taft
YOU ARE A LIAR!

Rush Limbaugh DID NOT call all troops who do not support the war phonies.

He called one FAKE soldier a phoney.
Army Ranger Jessie McBeth.

Who was only in the Army 44 days, was never a Ranger, was never in Iraq but lied about seeing our soldiers torture and kill innocent Iraqi civilians.
His lies were translated to Arabic and broadcast as propaganda.

And now YOU run around here playing useful idiot and repeating MSM LIES!

for Paulie
Thank you for your response.

I beg anyone with a mind to try to show me that it is not true that Silversteen profited by about $3.5 Billion. Or try to show me how steel beams each weighing in at at least a ton, are expelled horizontally from the dust cloud at the inception of the collapse of a building that is being pulled down "due to gravity". I would remind all that the laws of physics require that momentum be overcome by a force acting along the vector of its movement. Thus, gravity, down, could not ever push beams sideways. All of the beams were cut to 15-30 foot lengths and cut on diagonals. How did gravity do that?

No democracy can survive with such a gross blind spot in its history.

And to those who might consider this off subject, the article considers only three approaches to the war. All three of those have ignored the elephant standing in the middle of the room: the justification for the War was an inside job.

If someone commits murder, people don't sit around wringing their hands saying, well, now, what can we do? A lawful society isolates the evidence, investigates and prosecutes. You are all hand-wringing, while the criminals are making off with our future. Equal protection demands that the law be applied to all cases. The law was ignored, deliberately, on 9-11.


NY City Dog
You suckered me into listening to that long video clip just to catch a vague statement affirming that fake soldiers exist?

I know that;
I just gave you an example of one.
Limbaugh did NOT make a generalized statement about anti-war soldiers.

Your hero Kerry is the one who makes generalized statements.
http://www.kerrystreason.com/index.html
He calls all of our military STUPID!

POLLS
If we ran this country by polls, illegal would be shot dead, black would have been sent back to Africa after the civil war, all the Mormons would have been kill in the 1800's, gays would have been killed, and we would have nuked Iraq.
Thank goods we are a republic, and not mob(poll)racy.
The founding Fathers where way a head of the idiot poll watchers and takers.
Clinton ran by polls, and polled killing Obl was bad for his polls, now that worked out well, but the man is popular with the dunderheads.

trughes
I heard a salvage company bought all the metal from those buildings while the ruins were still smoking!

It seems a little far fetched to think those buildings were constructed expressly for the purpose of starting a war.

I don't see how those beams could be replace with that much stress on them.

I am a conspiracy buff myself.
I think both Kennedy assassinations stink with inconsistencies but I don't see anything wrong with 9-11.

freetothink: polls are indicators...
as to where the public stands on the issues and unfortunately for republicans and conservatives the preponderance of major polls show a clear disdain for President Bush and his policies on Iraq. to ignore them is foolish.

Touj
This should raise your spirits some.
http://www.veteransforfreedom.com/

Phylo & his ilk

You state that mistakes have been made in the Iraq war; that it was/is being mishandled; and imply that the Republicans are the cause of all wars (WARpublicans).


As you folks are such strategic planners and historians, please educate me here:

A. When was there EVER a war where mistakes were NOT made. For just one example, have you ever heard of the Battle of the Bulge and the disastrous results?

B. From which political party were the sitting Presidents at the beginning of:
WWI
WWII
Korea
Vietnam
(to help you out and save you from having to look it up - they were all Democrats)

C. As for the 'illegal' invasion of another country - can you please tell me who attacked the US in WWI? When did Germany and Italy attack the US in WWII? When did North Korea attack the US? On what date did North Vietnam attack the US?

Help me here with your vast knowledge.


Touj
Are you a paid Enemy Propagandist or just another Cindy Sheehan wannabe?

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPrint.asp?Page=/Politics/archive/200705/POL20070516a.html

Left angle
You tell us as if we didn't know that TH is a conservative site. Did you just discover this? I guess you are at the wrong place. I suggest Daily Kos. MoveOn. org or Media Matters.

MyOpine
Remember, don't feed Soros' Trolls!

Robert

NYCDogg is my "special" friend.

A++

loco
We TH'ers are following a great idea by greske NOT to answer the trolls that Soros sends here to bug us.

Touj, Left Angle, HalD, Robert, jetpilot, NYCDork, and a number of others are here only to heckle and toss out red herrings. NOT to discuss anything.

So, we ignore them, read around their posts, and coverse with bona-fide conservatives.

Robert Robert

"Hey Touj, sing "Duetschland, Duetschland, Uber Alles" again.

B+

Touj
Please respond to this;
You Leftist Jihadi are aware our military visit this site. You have seen their posts.
Radical Islam also monitors this site but they rarely post any more.

You propagandize in a deliberate effort to demoralize our military by falsely accusing them of atrocities and telling them they are being maimed and killed for an unjust war.
You tell them they have failed, the war is lost and you want to surrender the ground they fought to gain.

You are aware the enemy places all of their hope for victory on the belief that America does not have the stomach to sustain a long war yet you come here bleating like sheep, complaining about the war and do everything you can to assist enemy recruiting.

When a soldier fails to notice in IED, do you ever wonder if he might have been distracted by anger at some insulting remark you posted here?
Do you ever wonder if you helped to recruit the terrorist who planted that IED?

Tokyo Rose treated our military better than you do. She at least played music for us.

walt
Phylo is in Soros' hip pocket.

Ignore the mook, you'll only get moveon.org talking points out of him.

Phylo

Where's my buddy Robert? I miss him (giggle)

D+

no, B-

GunnyG
I have missed your charm & wit.
Will you be with us for awhile now?

to MyOpine
They were not built to be brought down, but they were bought by Silversteen, knowing full well that to make them meet modern buiding standards it would take several billion dollars.

I am not sure what you mean: "I don't see how those beams could be replace with that much stress on them."

From the very first instant of "collapse" there were beams and walls exploding out. The only way to imagine that happening is if you imagine some spring action popping the beams out. But any time two objects collide there is deformation and friction. Besides, with 90% of the buildings mass exploding outside the footprint of the towers, what was left behind to crush, demolish and push the lower portions of the building? There was literally nothing left in the foot print of the buildings, so what caused the last few floors to collapse. Not to mentions the hundreds of reports of explosions at the lobby and subfloor levels.

It is truely remarkable that none of these facts are known, by 99% of the population, but that number is decreasing.

Just go to Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth (ae911truth.org). Look at the picture they show in their front page about two clicks down, or trughes.com. the ae911truth.org site proves, by logical deduction, that the 3 buildings were brought down by explosives.

Interesting about the Kennedy assasination: The Bush family cannot leave power at this point, and believe me, their lives depend on it.

RETSSGT
One for Ol Roberto the bullet head.

Born on a mountaintop in tennesee
Joined code pink when he was only three
Learned to fly a jet and to be a lib
And swore that he'd never
take off his bib.

Robert, Robert the pilot
Legend in his tiny little mind

Hal,

I want mommy

Touj writes:
Stormrunner
I think you should copy your post into every TH thread. Of course, you will be called a commie, a socialist, or an uunpatriotic american but do it anyway.

It might reach somebody.

I notice that you did not suggest that he post it on DailyKOS, DU, Huffington Post, or MoveOn.org website. Or are they not partisan in your mind?

MyOpine
Unfortunately no, we were dogging the Soros Trolls on Ollie's article and found a nest of em here.

I'll be heading to chow and going on watch.

Wow, the moonbats are thick today!
When I saw the title to this article I knew it would get the moonbats all stirred up. :op


I'm not even going to waste my time replying to small warren, he's too insignificant and hate-filled to matter anyhow.

Taft gleefully passed on this fake piece of "news": "Rush Linbaugh on the radio this week smeared a large number of troops and generals, calling them "phonies!"

Rush never said anything of the sort, only someone with a twisted perception of reality would even think so. Taft, maybe you should take your meds.


NYC Dogg (Nifty little name change there buddy, get banned did ya?) said: "Still talking about MoveOn?" then caterwauled for a bit on the usual BS. Hey dogg, try READING the article before you crap on it huh? This wasn't about the stupid ad, it was about the fact that those dems you love so much aren't exactly enthused about pulling the troops out yesterday. Gee who woulda thunk it, a democrat that LIES?? Say it aint so!

Trughes as usual is calling for impeachement, big surprise there huh? She's still debating over whether or not we should go, 6 years after the fact!


Left Angle, What can I say? You probably think anyone to the right of Hugo Chavez is a Radical Right Winger. Go away, you're becoming annoying.

And finally Hope4freedom ranted about the "cost" of the war, and how it's somehow affecting how much I pay for a gallon of milk.
Umm, Hope4freedom, try looking at the cost of Gasoline and Diesel. We could have $2/gal gas or cheaper if you lefties would let us drill in anwar and off the coasts! Of course, it's ok for china to drill 60 miles from the coast of florida but not americans?? No wonder so many here at TH call lefties stupid, they are!

Does anyone have any doubts as to why the congress has an 11% approval rating right now?
The lefties like to talk about GWBs numbers all the time, but His numbers are more than double those of the congresscritters.


part 2
Hey moonbats, how does it feel to be tossed overboard?
Those candidates who were kissing your butts a couple months ago, have tossed you aside like yesterdays trash, because they finally realize that Losing the War to win the white house was a really crappy idea. I bet georgie soros is fuming about now, how can he hope to destroy america if he can't make us lose the war?

Conservatives, We need to make it our mission to pound every moonbat we meet with this info, if nothing else maybe we'll get to see some loon's head explode!
(Of course warren's head is so small it will just go "pop"!)

Lumberjack7392
BINGO!

Touj

Stormrunner, lick my toes.

Stormrunner

Yes Mistress

jackpine savage
I got to go on watch.

You've got the conn on libscum watch!

Oh, GunnyG, good to see you.
You never responded when I gave you an example of liars (one might say-stinking liars) in full uniform. What do you have to say baout Pat Tillman, three holes within a radius of two inches in his forehead (medical report), and the good soldier tells Tillman's parents and the world it was an accident. Or at first, was it the "terrorists"?

Drives Liberals Nuts
My uncle said the following was on Jay Leno:

"You get the government you deserve. If you watched, the three Democratic front-runners said last night . . . Hillary, Barack, John Edwards . . . said that setting a timeline for complete withdrawal is irresponsible, because you can’t project what the future situation will be in Iraq and pulling troops out basically depends on the situation on the ground . . . otherwise known as the Bush plan!"

Ahhh... the truth can be so funny!

Elementary physics
trughes writes: Friday, September, 28, 2007 3:07 PM
to MyOpine
"They were not built to be brought down, but they were bought by Silversteen, knowing full well that to make them meet modern buiding standards it would take several billion dollars.

I am not sure what you mean: "I don't see how those beams could be replace with that much stress on them."

Trughes, it's painfully obvious you never took elementary physics in HS.

Let me explain it to you, All the burning jet fuel weakened the steel, because the impact of the plane knocked the fireproofing material off the beams. The fire from all the burning jet fuel set everything else in the towers on fire, which weakened the steel. (and yes Fire CAN weaken steel, I-Beams don't just grow out of the ground ya know.)

Now this may be hard for you to wrap your brain around, but there was TONs of weight from the floors above the impact areas pushing down on those weakened beams. Gravity did the rest.

About the beams flying outward. Newton proved over a century ago that "For evey action, there is an equal reaction" When the floors bove started pancaking down, the stuff underneath Had to go somewhere, so they went out.

The conspiracy theories have been disproved over and over. Popular mechanics made a movie about it even!

Of course, if you're sad, lonely and have way too much time on your hands I guess a nice conspiracy theory will keep you company.

so sad.

My My
I've read some disgusting threads before but I dont think I've ever read one with so many different kinds of lies. For reasons I know not why it seems the worst of the worst somehow managed to find themselves here.
Conspiracy, Media matters, Tillman again even Kennedy---All on one thread---how do you do it?
Hey were winning the war---got another big terrorist today--listen to Johnny Horton---"there wasnt quite as many as there was a while ago".

Gunny
Aye Aye, I've got yer back!

NY City Dog
You should stick to watching war on TV.

MovieTone News was not with every squad or every ship and their cameras did not catch everything.
Sometimes I think Historians only write about what they see in those old newsreels.
If you know some of the things they did not film it is easy to spot other things that were missed.

With your limited knowledge you should stick to WW2 TV.

nyc puppy
You wouldnh't know danger if you stared it in the face. I don't know why you get so much joy out of demeaning those who keep you free, but it's just disgusting, and I hope you get you asss kicked by a soldier one day.

Lorie
"It can’t be known now whether or not the success seen so far from the surge in Iraq will continue through the 2008 election, or whether things will fall apart and sentiment against the war effort will turn even more negative."

The mission of the surge was to provide space for the Iraqi Government to come together. Like everything else the military portion succeeded the Iraqi and Bush regime portion failed

" What is clear though is which party will benefit politically if additional progress is made in Iraq, and which party will not. That goes a long way toward explaining the recent words and actions of some of the Democrats’ Presidential candidates."

Lie after lie after lie Lorie certainly you can try harder than this tripe

Jackpine Savage
nyc puppy
You wouldnh't know danger if you stared it in the face. I don't know why you get so much joy out of demeaning those who keep you free, but it's just disgusting, and I hope you get you asss kicked by a soldier one day."

I hope that comment wasn't because of what he said to gunny? GunnyG left the military to be a mercenary and mercenaries just don't count and as I said elsewhere are as disposable as Vitters and Craigs tissues

Hal
You still did not answer my question.
If you wanted to help defeat America and cause us to loose the Iraq war just like Vietnam;
What else would you do that you are not doing right now?

IS there anything else you could do?
It looks like you are giving it your best effort right now.

Hal Doofus writes:
The mission of the surge was to provide space for the Iraqi Government to come together. Like everything else the military portion succeeded the Iraqi and Bush regime portion failed

Lie after lie after lie Lorie certainly you can try harder than this tripe

DNC, DU, DailyKOS, Huffington Post, MoveOn.Org talking point, after talking, poit, after talking point. Can't you come up with something original?

Hellernot
I agree, things got ugly quick in this thread, on both sides, but mostly from the usual members of the soros-funded peanut gallery.

It's obvious even to most of the moonbats that as GWB recently said "We're kicking A**" over there, and the moonbats are running out of places to hang their hopes of defeat on.

And being the children they are, instead of thinking,"Maybe I was wrong" They wil kick and scream and keep getting louder, hoping that their temper tantrums will make us give them a cookie to shut up. Of course little kids eventually grow up, I'm afraid it appears to be too late for our moonbat friends.

After raising 3 kids, I've learned to tune them out when necessary. Then again, sometimes they need a little slap to get their attention.


Which brings me to our "friend" NYCdogg or whatever his latest incarnation is.

I usually don't use personal attacks, but this time i'm making an exception.

Why do you get so much joy out of denigrating our men and women in uniform? Yes Gunny may be a contractor now, but he put his asss on the line for his country. You on, the other hand, was probably rejected by a boy scout in the park in the past and now hate anyone in uniform.
I hope you get your candy-assss kicked by a soldier one of these days. Of course a couple anorexic girl scouts would probably suffice.

What a useless excuse for a human being.

I wish...
I wish that all the Socialist Commies would disappear and I wouldn't have to read their trash. Now I recognize a lot by post and skip over them. They are not worthy of my time!!!

"TRUTH OF THE DAY"
Liberal-Progressive-Socialist-Commies-Democrats are America's Greatest Enemy. Check out the Democrats actions attacking our 1st & 2nd Admendments, check out Honest Government-earmark transparency, Oil Independence, Energy Bill, Illegal Aliens, America's Sovereignty - LOST, U.N. Issues, Education Bill, Military Support & Preparedness, Missile Defense, Star Wars Initiaive, King Admendment, Union Special Elections, National ID, School Vouchers, Courts & their Rulings, etc, etc, etc,.

Jackpine Savage writes:
Why do you get so much joy out of denigrating our men and women in uniform? Yes Gunny may be a contractor now, but he put his asss on the line for his country. You on, the other hand, was probably rejected by a boy scout in the park in the past and now hate anyone in uniform.
I hope you get your candy-assss kicked by a soldier one of these days. Of course a couple anorexic girl scouts would probably suffice.

What a useless excuse for a human being.

Hell, even He Who Must Name Himself Twice (Robert) has even started attacking us. Just typical lib mentality.

MyOpine
".....IS there anything else you could do?
It looks like you are giving it your best effort right now."

I keep telling you if I wanted to aid terrorists I would support the Bush Regime and the folks here. Why do you think we haven't been attacked? We are doing everything they want

Hal
"mercenaries just don't count and as I said elsewhere are as disposable as Vitters and Craigs tissues"

Wow, that means they're almost as disposable as John Kerry's vietnam medals. Thought I already splained to you that they're not mercs.

Robert
Hal, who's your favorite little rascal? Was it Spanky?

Jimmy D
Fundamental Conservatism offered empty promises, hot emotion and the goal of more for me. There was no better future only the search for a past that didn't exist. We need a party and a president who will present an achievable, better future and a plan for a better, stronger country. Right now that IS NOT the Republican Party

Jackpine Savage
Shissssssh!
Don't mention Boy Scouts around Leftists.
They hate Boy Scouts because they won't let NAMBLA be Scout Masters!

Lumberjack7392
They are talking points because they are the truth

MyOpine/Jackpine Savage
and Hal is an Eagle Scout too

My Opine, Jimmy D
Great question Opine, I use that one with every moonbat I talk to, and sooner or later I'm going to get to see some hippy's head explode!
It never fails to shut 'em up at least until they can come up with a new ad-hominem attack.

Jimmy, in a way I agree, but in their own strange way, our soros funded trolls are useful.
By posting the daily kos/huffpo/DU/moron.ugh talking points, it saves us time having to actually go to those wastes of bandwidth to see them. Besides they're fun to slap around every now and then. :o)

Wow, they really Are Useful Idiots!

Hal Donahue writes:
We need a party and a president who will present an achievable, better future and a plan for a better, stronger country. Right now that IS NOT the Republican Party

Hal Doofus: It is NOT the DUMBBUTTCRAP Party. All it offers is a program of back to the past, high taxes, more programs that don't work and come in way over budget, complete contempt for the military, and cratering the economy with inflation and high interest rates.

Hal Donahue writes:
Lumberjack7392
They are talking points because they are the truth

Hal Doofus: Just because you say they are the truth does not make it so, except in your own mind.

Hal
You evaded my question with lies.
You still did not answer my question.
If you wanted to help defeat America and cause us to loose the Iraq war just like Vietnam;
What else would you do that you are not doing right now?

Your lie about Republicans helping the enemy is obviously a lie.
Why do terrorists cheer for Democrats to win elections?
Why did your hero Kerry whine and make excuses to bin Laden when Democrats failed to surrender after they won the election?

Give me a truthful answer to my question Hal.
Are you too cowardly to admit the truth?

Oh Yeh; The Democrat front runners just cut the Iraq limb off while you were out on it!

Lumberjack7392
"All it offers is a program of back to the past, high taxes, more programs that don't work and come in way over budget, complete contempt for the military, and cratering the economy with inflation and high interest rates."

Where is what I said before:

Simple questions. Is our transportation infrastructure the best in the world as it was in 1966 (the year Reagan was elected Governor of California)? Is our education system the best in the world as it was in 1966? Is our manufacturing base (a key element of national security) the best in the world as it was in 1966? Is our healthcare establishment the best in the world as it was in 1966? The answers are a simple no. What Fundamental Conservatism did was use up the older generations investments and either fail to replace or to provide a shoddy replacement.

No sense saying it twice today is there and it fits well

Hal
Hal Donahue writes: Friday, September, 28, 2007 4:27 PM
Lumberjack7392
"They are talking points because they are the truth"

Truth is a very flexible thing hal, you should know I've seen you stretch it all out of shape.

I deal not in Truth, I deal in Facts.
The truth is subjective, facts are facts.
The afforementioned sites wouldn't know a fact if it came in wearing a suicide vest.

I understand that silly little things like facts just get in the way of ideology, but maybe you should look at a few from time to time just to keep you from floating completely off the planet.

I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, (soros' job) but I just had to this time, :op

Lumberjack7392
"Doofus: Just because you say they are the truth does not make it so, except in your own mind."

Which items were not true?

Hal
You just made an example for me of how you Progressives will do anything you can to punish the Boy Scouts for not letting NAMBLA be Scout Masters.
Now you slander the Boy Scouts by claiming to once have been one.

You Progressives procure children for pedophiles.
http://hollycrud.com/2006/10/nancy-girl-wants-old-gays-with-young.html

Max Power
"I find it interesting that Hal calls republicans the party of "hot emotions".

Fundamental conservatives who captured the grand old party are. Look at the failed Santorum, Lott need I go on? Emotional appeal few facts on gays, war, pick a subject... no results well wait our military is really being disarmed by the Bush Regime, The City of New Orleans is a shadow of itself, deficits are thru the ceiling and we are spending how much a day in Iraq to disarm our military? Those are facts

MyOpine
"You evaded my question with lies."

Really what was a lie?


Keeping the duped, duped.
I think Byrd knows that the Dems are perceived by the majority as being better able to handle terrorism and to keep our country safer. It's a shame that she tries to pull a fast one with this disingenuous column, though - offering hope to the poor rightwing when indeed there is none to be had.

Jackpine Savage
"Truth is a very flexible thing hal, you should know I've seen you stretch it all out of shape."

Ahhh see that is THE failure of you extremists The truth is NOT flexible. But since your whole movement is based on trying to go back in time to a place that never was I understand your problem


Touj
Why not?
Because you are imploding!
Your MSM is imploding too.
Soon you will be no more.
That is why we enjoy you while you are here.
Your clownish antics afford us hours of entertainment.

MyOpine
"Now you slander the Boy Scouts by claiming to once have been one."

Troop 95 Scranton PA time early 60's. The truth will set you free



Just what we need
"We need a party and a president who will present an achievable, better future and a plan for a better, stronger country"

Yes, one's that come up with brilliant ideas like giving each new born in America $5000.00. Maybe we should spring for the bus fair to get those anchor babies here while we're at it.

Robert
R is for the way you rite to me. O is for the onaly words I see.....

Max Power
Don't believe your own Army Chief? He said the saame thing yesterday

New Orleans failed during whose watch?

The truth shall set you free

Bman
what, no signoff? Thanks for the laughs, have a good one.

Robert
Is rubber ducky blowin bubbles again Hal?

MyOpine
Soon you fundamentalist conservatives will be no more. All I am really doing is watching and recording the fall

Touj is that hippy for Toke????
Touj writes: Friday, September, 28, 2007 4:48 PM
Gunny G, My Opine, et. al.
Here is a question I keep putting out on TH but nobody ever answers, either because they can't or because they don't understand it:

Since you conservatives hate liberals so much, and obviously believe we are out to destroy you and your country, why not work for a division that would foster a true divide and split America in Two? Why would you want to even breathe the same air as Democrats?

You hate us so much and you obviously see democrats as your most threatening enemies, why not form your own government and just control one half of the country?

Why, why, why, why not?

Touj, I don't know about you, but I personally don't hate Anyone. Period.
I may disagree with liberals, and occasionally give 'em a little tweak, but that doesn't mean I hate them.

Now lefties on the other hand, seem to hate everyone. You Hate GWB, You hate Cheny, You hate Rummy, You hate A.G., you hate the entire republican party, You hate the military, you probably even hate your mammas, (Not 100% sure on tat one) But you're the "Enlightened" ones who have a "Darwin Given Right" (You don't believe in God) to rule over the great unwashed masses here at TH and this capitalist cesspool you hate so much called the USA.

Guess, what? You're losing, and you know it!!
Skeery isn't it?

Hal
You kind of make up your truth as you go.

I still don't believe any Scout Troop would tolerate you for a hot minute.


You still did not answer my question.
If you wanted to help defeat America and cause us to loose the Iraq war just like Vietnam;
What else would you do that you are not doing right now?

More evidence of a better party
Madaam Speaker concerning the border fence

"I have been against the fence, I thought it's a bad idea even when it was just a matter of discussion," said Pelosi, D-Calif. "These are communities where you have a border going through them, they are not communities where you have a fence splitting them."

What a party....

Robert
We're coming in hot captain! I can't keep her level...oh man.... can I have another quarter mommy?

MyOpine
LMAO I rest my case THANK YOU so much for doing it. What lies did you find in my reply

Dems. have been thriving
on bad news since FDR and the Grt. Dep. of the 1930s.

That's one reason why no one ever hears anything good about the ec. in the MSM. It's the most eff. and faithful way the media can help the Dems. and keep people thinking everything is all bad all the time.

I don't know what Iraq will be like next year, but if the current improvements continue, more of the country will be able to use its own security and less of ours. But, I expect we'll be there with at least 50,000 forever.

We have practically (sometimes more) 50,000 everywhere we've ever been, except Vietnam (which now wants our tourism and trade): Japan, S. Korea, Germany, Kosovo (have 3 bases there and 3 soldiers were killed last year), yadda.

Too bad for Dems.


Folk
Be well and enjoy
Adios"

NY City Dog
GunnyG wants us to win.
You want to surrender!

Patriots
"Gunny and his ilk are blowhards and liars. Gunny, for instance, has a vested interest in non-stop war and bloodshed - it's how he makes his money. But that wouldn't bother you -even if the guy is a war profiteer - because he's a patriot..."

GM, Ford, and Chrysler all made huge profits from WW2, that makes them war profiteers right?
I have absolutely no problem with folks like Gunny who, regardless of what you think are doing something positive over there. For every desk a contractor is riding, there is a soldier or marine that can be out doing what they do best, killing bad guys. Of course you probably consider the rent-a-cops at the mall Mercenaries too. :op

to: Jackpine Savage
I took a year of physics at UC Berkeley, ever hear of that. How far did you get in Physical Chemistry?

It is not "Equal (and opposite) reactions" happen to include the energy to generate heat and to cause deformation of materials. How many times have you seen cars colliding and bouncing like billiard balls without any deformation? Springing out from eachother.

As I spefically mentioned, at the very inception of collapse. That means when the whole bottom portion of the building was intact, having been holding up the whole top portion of the building with 47 boxed steel columns for 30 years, when the first little bit of weaking happpened, keep in your mind, if you can, the words "first little weakening", meaning your steel being softend by a 45 minute diesel fire that was running out of fuel, why did beams and windows start exploding out. There was zero kinetic energy available at that first point of weakening, and plenty of redundancy in the structure to absorb any small amount of weakening. Acceleration starts at zero and with only gravity and lots of friction that might be a slow process. But it started exploding, with as I said many many reports of "secondary explosions".

Did I mention that the author of the Popular Mechanics article is Michael Chertoff's first cousin. Writing a book full of circular arguments does not make it's lies come true.

And since you're so big on equal reactions, you must be able to explain how Building Seven collapsed as in a perfect demolition with all four walls coming down simultaneously and even a little crease down the middle so hardly a pebble fell oun the sidewalks around it.



Jackpine Savage
no mercenaries doing ops?

Conspiracy theories
Touj, we could go round and round for hours on end, and it would make absolutely no difference.
Other than wasting our time, we would accomplish nothing. Just like a "Jesus Freak", I'll never hear anything that hasn't already been hard wired into your brain. Truthers have their view of the world, and then there's the rest of us.

As much as I love a good argument, I have better things to do than argue with someone who thinks their own government would kill thousands of it's own citizens to start a "war for profit", then in the next breath, cry about how much the war is Costing us! I live in a house full of women, I know circular logic when I see it.


Mercenaries
Face it Hal, this dead horse you've been beating on is'nt going to get back up.

We've had "Contractors" involved in our military since before the USA was the USA.
So, no, I have no problem with the military getting help where they can.

So what if their pay is tax free. Ask a guy working an oil rig there right now, his pay is tax free too. Your argumments are slowly dissolving like a sand castle at high tide hal.

Pack up your little revival tent and slink away in the darkness like the huckster you are.


Jackpine Savage
"We've had "Contractors" involved in our military since before the USA was the USA.
So, no, I have no problem with the military getting help where they can."

I do have a problem with mercenaries I have no problem with contractors and have with my share. What we have in Iraq is that mercenar ies are approaching the number of military. The troops seem to have nothing but contempt for most except for government employees.

"So what if their pay is tax free. Ask a guy working an oil rig there right now, his pay is tax free too. Your argumments are slowly dissolving like a sand castle at high tide hal."

Hey I have made tax free income no complaint but it is important that everyone is aware the very high salaries are also tax free.

"Pack up your little revival tent and slink away in the darkness like the huckster you are."

Ahh that would be you - did you just glance in a mirror

Hal you lied to us!
You gave your farewell and left for the day and now I see you back again;

NOW!
Think real hard Hal;
If you wanted to do something to help America's enemies, what would you do that you have not already done?

I mean as the Progressive you are right now!
Not in some other form or in some other life.

Limbaugh: Only “phony soldiers”
Limbaugh: Only “phony soldiers” support U.S. withdrawal

Sgt. Rush Limbaugh, a former medic with the Army’s 101st Medicated Division (the Fightin’ Blow Hards) relies on his years of military service to discern which soldiers in Iraq are “real” and which are “phony”.

MediaMatters: [A caller said,] “…what’s really funny is, [the press] never talk to real soldiers. They like to pull these soldiers that come up out of the blue and talk to the media.”

Limbaugh interjected, “The phony soldiers.”

The caller, who had earlier said, “I am a serving American military, in the Army,” agreed, replying, “The phony soldiers.”

This was all in response to an August 19, The New York Times op-ed by seven (phony) members of the U.S. Army 82nd Airborne Division.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/limbaugh-only-phony-soldiers-support-us-withdrawal

Which War is Tom Delay Talking About?

“I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our over-extended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today”–Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/which-war-is-tom-delay-talking-about#comments

Phony Soldiers
I am frightened by the sheer number of useful idiots in the media and general population. These lazy unintelligent haters have the power to vote, and therefore the power to destroy our country. Taft, an earlier contributor to this blog, is an example. He either knowingly takes a Rush Limbaugh quote out of context and uses it to discredit someone he disagrees with, or even worse, he stupidly parrots what some left wing organization wants him to believe. Either scenario is dangerous, because the bottom line is that Rush did not say what Taft wants him to have said.

Which War?
“Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is.”

-Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)

“President Clinton is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation’s armed forces about how long they will be
away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy.”

-Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA)

“No goal, no objective, not until we have those things and a compelling case is made, then I say, back out of it, because innocent people are going to die for nothing. That’s why I’m against it.”

-Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/5/99

“If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy.”

-Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of presidential candidate George W. Bush

John Konop
Rush's Phony Soldier (singular)

Rush called 1 (one) soldier phony who lied about his service as part of an anti-war statement.

I heard the original on-air exchange.

The comment was taken out of context and posted on Media Matters. The left has repeated it without verifying the veracity of Media Matter's report. Now you have repeated the lie.

A question for you. By repeating this lie, are you a liar? Think carefully before responding.

Hal Doofus writes
Lumberjack7392
They are talking points because they are the truth

Well, you finally admitted all you use are DNC, DU, DailyKOS, Huffington Post, and MoveOn.Org talking points.

Phony Soldier
The "Soldier" in question was Jessie McBeth, a recruit who washed out after 44 days.

He lied and said he was an Army Ranger just back from Iraq.
He told of several incidents where he had SEEN American Soldiers rape, torture and murder innocent Iraqi citizens.

His lies were translated to Arabic and broadcast by the enemy.

He said what Democrats wanted him to say so I guess that makes him a real soldier in their eyes.

Real Americans would call him a phony soldier.

For you idiots bashing Rush
For you idiots bashing Rush about his comments this week re: "phoney soldier".

Please get a clue before repeating lies and mistruths of others.

--- Cut and pasted from my own post about this else where ---


What do you know I was right not to trust media matters. *SHOCKER*

First off it would have been pretty clear to regular listeners just what rush was referring too when he said "phony soldiers", and as suspected when I read the quote he was referring to cases where "soldiers" have made up stories,including serving in Iraq at all, certainly not how Media Matters chose to spin the comment.

-Even Worse-
While the media matters post provides the transcript of caller 1 and caller 2 it does not provide the transcript of Rush's own comments immediately following caller2 (mike-chicago).

What the MM transcript *conveniently* didn't bother to include (begins btw @ 27:30 into the second hour podcast ) was Rush reminding listeners once again about the phony soldiers he was talking about. -insert moonbat name here- if you would like a copy of the second hour podcast please email me and I will send you a copy (your email must accept a 13mb attachment). If you want to know the jist of rush's reminder and what was discussed take a look @
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Macbeth
" target="_blank">http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/332642_fakevet22.html">
or simply google "jesse macbeth" who he specifically mentions or "phony soldier". I know that last one never would have occurred to you media matter types. None of this surprised me, nor did the fact you took the bait hook line and sinker from the mother ship.


sluumer
Sounds you are jealous of Rush; you protest too much. IF you cant make it, slam those that have made it fair and square. There is a fairness doctrine.
Other stations such Air America. It did not make it. Then you have govt subsdized NPR which would not make without govt funds, There is the nytimes, CNN and the rest of the MSM

Your complaint is not with Rush. Your complaint is with his audience; without a devoted listening audience, he would not be where he is.

So, what names do you have for his audience. I assume if you were in power, his audience would end up in the gulag since they are not too intelligent or politically attuned to the right ideas as defined by you.


dog
"Rush Limbaugh DID NOT call all troops who do not support the war phonies.'

he sure did - i JUST listened to the clip:"

BIG DEAL! If you had listened to the program (as I did) you would know that he was VERY specific about McBeth and THOSE FEW SOLDIERS WHO HAD BEEN CAUGHT IN OUT AND OUT LIES.

But then, I suppose that the liars and traitors are YOUR heros. Well Benedict, I suppose that one man's traitor is another man's hero.

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