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Friday, August 24, 2007
Lisa De Pasquale :: Townhall.com Columnist
Are We Hypocrites for Not Enlisting? Part 2
by Lisa De Pasquale
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In my column last week I asked whether those that support the global war on terrorism are hypocrites for not joining the military.  Several comment posters thought so.  They don’t seem to grasp the point that the reason we don’t want all supporters of the war in the military is because we want to win.  Their goal is different – the humiliation of America just so they can say “We told you so.”  We want the strongest, most intelligent military of the willing in order to ensure victory.  As Congressman James Clyburn (D-SC) said, that’s “a real big problem” for Democrats.

Those who don’t support the troops and their mission are showing their complete ignorance when they make charges of hypocrisy.  True hypocrisy is the Left’s phony claim to “support the troops” while making demands that weaken the military.

Townhall.com poster “Corbett” wrote:

I don't care if you're 95 years old and confined to a wheelchair. If you believe that the nation's survival is at stake, then you have an ABSOLUTE DUTY to go down to the recruiter's office & try to enlist.

Since logic has never been the Left’s strong point, another poster responded to him:

If you believe national security is at stake and you are unfit to serve in the military you have a PATRIOTIC duty to stay out of the way of those who are and try to help some other way, like offering your support, morally, substantantively, and/or monetarily… Liberals like corbett don't really want 90-year-old invalids going to the recruiting office just to be rejected. They want 90-year-old invalids feeling guilty about having an independent opinion. They want to bully anyone and everyone they can (apparently including aging invalids) because they can't win an honest argument.

This poster calls himself “wiseone.”  Indeed!  Thankfully, military service is not compulsory because of guilt or fear of being called a hypocrite by treasonous liberals. 

Last week I also received emails from parents of servicemen and women who agreed that their son or daughter deserved more than the treatment they get from the anti-military Left.  Many on the Left, including some notable Senators, have implied that those who serve are intellectually or morally inferior.  They also perpetuate the myth that the military is a “last resort” for the poor.  This week Washington state’s Daily Herald columnist Froma Harrop wrote, “We know that the armed forces are all-volunteer (‘the good news,’ Mitt said) and that few children of the rich have much to do with it.” 

Like many liberals, Harrop didn’t bother to look up any statistics, but just made a broad statement that sheds light on her opinion of the military rather than the truth.  A study of military enlistment from 2003-2005 found that recruits from the poorest neighborhoods have been on the decline.  The study summarized, “[T]he additional years of recruit data (2004–2005) sup­port the previous finding that U.S. military recruits are more similar than dissimilar to the American youth population.  The slight dif­ferences are that wartime U.S. mil­itary enlistees are better educated, wealthier, and more rural on aver­age than their civilian peers.”

Rather than “support the troops,” the Left continues to define them as poor and uneducated with no extraordinary skills.  More so than those who insult them, we know the value of the lives that are lost during times of war.  For that reason, every person serving deserves to fight along side his equal.  It’s essential to our victory. 

As a supporter of the military and daughter of two parents who served more than 35 years combined, I am reminded of one remarkable solder that Tony Snow spoke about at the 2007 Conservative Political Action Conference:

[The soldier] had no use for the anti-war movement.  He pointed out that young people, young men were serving that had never set foot on a college campus, quote, “have done more to uphold the universal legitimacy of representative government and human rights than folks with their placards.  Why?  Because they stood in the line of fire between fanatics and those who tried to vote.”

...

When he got [to Iraq] he found things that he never would have imagined.  He found fulfillment.  He found support.  He found trust and he found friendship.  As a matter of fact, he quoted on his [MySpace] page one local who defined the difference between a terrorist and an American.  He said, “They get paid to take life, to murder and you get paid to save life.”  And he said that compliment meant more to him “than all the naysayers and makeshift humanists that monopolize our interpretation of this war.” 

You want to find the kind of people we have in Iraq?  This is it.

And what is going on in Iraq right now is our men and women are seeing folks there who have been subjected to eons of tyranny and suddenly the light’s going off and they’re beginning to see what freedom might mean and they’re beginning to see that the decency and honor and goodness of the American people is something they want to emulate.  Yeah, that happens!

As a matter of fact, in an email a little more than a month ago, our author said, “All is well.  More war stories than I can fit in this email.  Having the time of my life!”  Exclamation point!  And on the following day, Mark Daily was killed by an IED.  That’s what we lose.  But in that short time you had someone who had demonstrated through his deeds and his words and his character what it means to be an American.

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About The Author

Lisa De Pasquale is CPAC Director at the American Conservative Union. The Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) is the nation’s largest annual gathering of conservatives. For more information, visit www.cpac.org. To read Lisa's blog, visit www.thelotusblog.com

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Gabby
Gabby, you're not making a lot of sense in these posts. The government cuts off enlistment age for a reason.

If you don't like the war, just say so, but keep the comments sensible.

Partners
I think Gabby and Robert are partners in life. They both spew the the same worthless crud over and over again and nothing changes. Except Roberts job 1) test pilot on fast movers
2)Border guard
3)Police officer
And other dreampt up careers. What a man no wonder Gabby would make a good partner.

In response to foxfire22
Joking, man, joking!

Robert
Your response is really avoiding my question. I went back to that column every day for a week to read your answer, but it never appeared -- at least not in that time frame.

I believe that everything I said was factual regarding commissions and Kerry.

I said he enlisted and was commissioned in the US Naval Reserve. His DD Form 214 indicated that his branch of service and component was the USNR. Are you saying that is not the US Naval Reserve?

I said there is a difference between a reserve commission and an officer being a member of a reserve component. How am I incorrect?

I said there were reserve and regular commissions for officers. How am I incorrect?

I said the primary sources for initial commission determined whether the commission was reserve or regular. How am I incorrect?

I said that the service academies were the primary source of initial regular commissions and reserve commissions came from OCS, OTC and ROTC. I did not say these were the only sources of a commission. How am I incorrect?

Clyde9

Tallil2long
I think that you mis understood my friend. You need to read my posts. I suport this war, I support our troops. I was being sarcastic in reference to some of Roberts posts.

I,m well over 60 and I was just stating that I wasn't physically fit to move like our troops, but because I believe in this war, I would be willing to be a decoy to further the success of our mission.

I was not suggesting that our troops would use me as a decoy, or our government for that matter.

I know that our troops would drag my sorry butt back. No insult was intended.

Don't think that I wouldn't put a bullet in ones head here if necessary.

In response to foxfire22
"If you just want a decoy, send me. I’ll stand up while you get a bead on the enemy, just make your first shot count."

Up yours, buddy! Nobody gets left behind -- I'd be the one dragging your sorry ancient butt!
Stay home with the grandkids, you've done your bit :)

In response to Robert
"They are used to preserve protect and defend The Constitution against its enemies...and do so in a way consistent with our birthright as a nation. It is sad that people die around the world but unless their deaths affect the US I really dont care to waste me or my kids or the folks who I "Point" (these days) to stop them."

Do you consider the U.S. to be under *any* obligation to help others? For instance, need we have sent food and money to the tsunami victims? After all, they're not Americans, just foreign brown people with unpronouncable languages. How about Rwanda: why not just let a million or so people get murdered? They're not Americans, they're just black Africans with funny-sounding tribal names.

Well, if we have obligations to other humans on this planet, perhaps we (under some circumstances) have obligations to *fight* for other humans.
Not under every circumstance, sure. But if you espouse a philosophy of "Care for Americans and let the rest die", then I think you are very much in error.

Out of curiousity, were you by any chance making nice with the Ba'athist government in '83? If so, I can understand your ambivalence at seeing them toppled.

Robert
I'm well aware of how this was sold. It would be impossible to make the American public aware of this strategy without making the world aware of it as well. That would have certainly guaranteed its failure. There is no contradiction in my wider war point, you provided no argument concerning this contradiction, simply a statement that it is. As to forcing something on a culture, that depends on your definition. We forced the presentation of an alternative. We left the choice up to them. We did not defeat communism simply by containing it. We supported a competing alternative. It is not a coincidence that all of those states that were freed from the communist clutches chose forms of government that we advanced. The communists tried very hard to prevent their people from seeing the failures of the communist ideology when compared to the west's free capitalist ideology. They failed in that endeavor and eventually the yearning of the masses to move to this ideological alternative reached critical mass. The only way to defeat an ideology is to present a better alternative.

Back To The Article
To address the point of this article.

I’m much to old to serve now, but my father served in WW1, my two brothers served in WW2, I served in Viet man, my two sons served in Gulf 1.

Does that qualify me to speak?

I wouldn’t expect men and women over 35-40 to serve in today’s military as a front line combat soldier. The physical demands are too great.

These people expecting other wise are just blowing hot air.
If you just want a decoy, send me. I’ll stand up while you get a bead on the enemy, just make your first shot count.

No matter if you choose to go or not to go doesn’t affect the legitimacy of the cause.

The ones that go are standing in the gap for all of us. They go because they want to protect even those who don’t want to go.
All they expect is that you don’t sit back here criticizing them for doing there job.

I think that it is a crying shame that we send these brave men and women to do a very dangerous job and second guess there actions under fire.

We should provide them with what ever it takes to protect them and keep them alive.
If an air strike takes out innocent lives while protecting our own, so be it.
You can’t always know who the enemy is in combat.

I believe that there are people who choose not to enlist that would fight to protect family, friends and fellowman if attacked at home. They should have a right to an opinion to whether a war is valid whether serving or not.

Those who serve are protecting your right to do that.

In response to Robert
The United States hasn't given up on democracy in Iraq: we've given up on an 'instant American-clone democracy'. It was unreasonable of us to expect one in four years, anyway: it's taken us over two centuries to get where we are! (and we started out with far less significant fault lines)

As it stands, Iraq is considerably more democratic (and unstable, sure) than it was under Saddam. We hope for it to reach a stable equilibrium in which all of its citizens are able to influence their government through political process.

Will that happen? Perhaps. Will it only happen after they've fought themselves into exhaustion? Perhaps, though I like many Iraqis well enough to hope not. If you've never travelled outside the States much, it may surprise you to learn, though, that much of the world still depends heavily on fighting to hammer out political issues. You might prefer them to be just like us; it would certainly be less frustrating and dangerous if they were more like us. But under Ba'ath tutelage they seem unlikely to EVER decide that there are better methods than force and violence.

Would democratization have ever happened if we'd not derailed the Ba'ath Party's grip on Iraq? Almost certainly not. Will it continue if we leave now? Quite likely not. Next year? I hope so.

How long *should* we stay? I dunno. I'm not really to call it quits quite yet, personally. Though I WOULD like two consecutive years at home!

foxfire
Yeah, simple straight forward logic escapes Robert. I am under no illusion that he will understand that much more complex logical statement. I was just curious to see his response. Like his other responses, it will probably have nothing to do with the premise put forth. Just more obvuscation throwing out facts that have no relevance to the central argument.

Second response to Robert
Perhaps I made a mistaken assumption. You might not really *believe* there are bad guys in the world, aside from Pres. Bush and V.P. Cheney and Mr. Rove. I find that many liberal/progressives really only believe in, and concern themselves with, the 'domestic enemy', their political opponents.
There are bad guys in the world, neighbor.


"All that is needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."
- Edmund Burke

apoplectic
I like the last post, but it makes to much sense for Robert.

But you are absolutely on point.

In response to Robert
Well, it's a good thing the world has YOU to figure things out for the rest of us mere mortals.

But seriously: sure, I could be wrong. I've got the worm's eye view. That's why civilian leadership decides where to point me.

On the other hand, perhaps you've never seen bad guys cut off peoples' heads because they refused to plant IEDs for them. Some people just need killing.
I know what you're going to say: they wouldn't be *planting* IEDs if we weren't there. Right? Except I rolled into Iraq in March '03 and saw how they had treated people in *peacetime*. This may astonish you, but bad guys don't just appear when the war starts, and they don't vanish when the U.S. gets tired and leaves. Ask about two million Vietnamese and Cambodians (well, you can't ask them: they're dead).

Robert
The war in Iraq is not a tit for tat response for 9/11. It is a strategy to combat a radical ideology. We are not fighting a conventional war in the sense of one country against another. This is a war of ideology in which one side decided the best way to spread their ideology was to physically attack the leaders of a competing ideology. The question then becomes, how do you defeat an ideology that has become a danger to your citizens and their way of life. One approach is to physically attack them wherever you find them. The problem with this approach is that you then must encroach upon other nations which provoke a much more conventional conflict in the sense that you are disregarding their national sovernty. I argue that this approach not only creates animosity amongst those populaces but also against their governments. Another approach is to attempt to insert a competing ideology in a few nations who already had animosity towards us, with the belief that this competing ideology will eventually win out over the other thereby removing the need for a much wider conflict. This alternate strategy is much more attractive because if it succeeds, it will have actually saved many lives. If it fails, it is still battles that would have to have been fought anyway in the wider conflict.

Robert
Robert writes: We chose to leave "conventional diplomacy.
======================

I have a question?
How long must diplomacy be extended.
If you perceive a threat real or not, how long must you allow no meaningful dialog to continue?

The proliferation of WMD is a serious matter. When you are faced with a people who do not fear extension, who would use such weapons if they thought that Allah would be pleased, what are you supposed to do?

Talk went on for 12 years with Saddam. He never came clean with the UN. He refused to openly abandon a desire to obtain WMD.

Defending ourselves against Russia has been costly, Defending against China has been costly, encouraging Korea, and Iran has been costly. Trying to keep India and Pakistan from war has been costly to the USA.

It seem to me that all pacifists want to do is let everyone get there own Nuke while we pay to keep them from using it on each other or us.

The US is trying to stop the spread of Nuclear weapons and all the liberals can do is tell us to talk, negotiate, and pay extortion to slow them down.

We are facing the greatest budget increase in history to protect our borders, ports, airlines because terrorist’s elements won’t to destroy the super power status of America.

You are dreaming if you think that attacking Iraq, Afghanistan, or putting bases in Saudi is the motivation force.

Something as benign as trading with someone that these people don’t like can set them off, because to support an enemy’s economy is viewed as collaboration.

They don’t like our morals. How do you suggest that we address that?

Liberals arguments hold little value because they just don’t face reality.
Liberals think that they can talk there way out of a rape,bobbery,and murder.
Love and understanding conquers all is there plan.
Instead of spanking a child, talk them into your point of view, when that fails, buy them off, when that fails, blame the conservatives.

In response to Foxfire22
"I don’t disagree with the power of the gospel, but things have to be taken in context."

I enlisted before I got serious about living a Christian life. Since then, I've had to do some thinking on whether the military profession is contradictory to Christian principles.

I have decided that it need not be.

John the Baptist, whom Christ approved, told the soldiers who came to him "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely—be content with your pay." Jesus encountered the centurion and, far from speaking against the evil of his profession, commended his faith. Christ allowed one of his disciples to carry a sword (he certainly wasn't unaware that Peter had one). Christ admitted to Pilate "If my kingdom were of this world, my followers WOULD fight" -- without a shred of disapproval at the prospect.

Corbett wrote "So we must have some other way to destroy Wahabism. War is not the answer."
He is right: war is not the solution. It never really *is*. War can at best set the conditions for a solution, or prevent the most disastrous outcome. And refusing to resist Wahabist violence (or any other sort) would only *bring about* the most disastrous outcome.

Corbett says that loving your enemy is the only way to finally get through to him, and he is right about that, too; but first you must prevent the enemy from destroying you.
I prefer to do that by killing the enemy until their hearts break and they become willing to try a better way. Does that make me a big, strong hero? No. Sometimes when I'm with my family I am a little ashamed at my feelings on this matter; those sentiments just ought not to belong in a perfect world. But you know, the world isn't perfect at the moment.
In a way, I'm rather looking forward to retiring and becoming a teacher, but I've got another decade of this, first.

There, my moment of introspection is done. Sorry you all had to witness that.

Enlistment
I am 78 years old, and served in the US Army during the Korean War. I would like to re-enlist, and would like to konw the address of the nearest enlistment office. I live in Brasilia, DF, Brazil.

Corbett
Not to sure that attitude would work with Wahabism.
They kill Muslims who disagree with them.
Quakers turn the other cheek and it sure didn't change the world for them.

I completely understand your theological position, but I could also ask how you resist evil which is also scripture.

You might tell me that that was meant for the believer to resist being influenced by evil personally.

I could ask, did Jesus mean love a personal enemy or an evil force, such as a national enemy.

How do you suggest that we meet with bin Laden and present the gospel?

We have a small percentage of fundamentalists who present and live pure gospel, If we can’t convert those who are in our own country, how do you think that we are going to convert those who really hate Christianity.

Ideologically the Beatitudes are spiritual precepts. They are what the Kingdom of God represents. Jesus also told the disciples to sell there cloak and arm themselves for protection, so much for turning the other cheek in an evil world.

I don’t disagree with the power of the gospel, but things have to be taken in context.

Wahabism is a violent form of extreme religion. It is dedicated to doing what ever is necessary to bring Islam into power.

They move into moderate Islamic societies and threaten and intimidate them until they submit.

Whether we destroy it or not, we must fight it. It’s a cancer that will ultimately destroy freedom, yours included.

Robert
All wars are "elective". You can choose to fight, acquiesce to the demands of your enemy, or simply choose not to fight (ie surrender). Also, we were "really" attacked on 9/11. That hole in the ground in NYC is not a figment of our collective imaginations. Also convenient of you to sidestep the point of my post. You also ignored my other post proving the fallacy of your "logic". Being a lib is remarkably convenient!!

Corbett
If you are still out there explain one thing for me. In the news a few months ago there was a big uproar about a guy who had what they thought was an infectious strain of TB and they were upset that he got on a plane. Now why do you think they were so upset? He didn't have an aresol and he didn't have any dust. He himself was infectious. What do you think would happen if a person who had been exposed to smallpox or even worse plague got on a plane after approxamatly 48 hrs of exposure? We have been vaccinated for so many years that they have all but stopped smallpox vaccinations and we are like the indians you so smugly mentioned we have no resistance! If these guys are so quick to strap on a bomb in the name of allah them wh do you find it so hard to fathom the possibility of this? They still get their celestial virgins.

Convenient accusation
The part that angers me the most about this ridiculous accusation, is the convenience for those making the argument. The argument is essentially since you believe there is a threat, it is incumbent on you to go fight. Since I don't believe there is a threat, I'm under no obligation to go fight. This implies that the reality of a threat is based completely on their personal beliefs. What if they are wrong and the threat is real? I volunteered to go to Somalia even though I completely disagreed with the reasoning for going there and thought it was foolish. I did so because someone had to go regardless of their beliefs concerning the mission. How convenient it would have been to opt out of danger because I didn't believe in the mission. This is the convenience of the left. Even if they are wrong, they feel it is the obligation of someone else to protect them!!! That is called, cowardice.

In response to Lilly
I take no personal offense at your characterization of Army recruits, as I've been in for some years now. I might add that I've continued to be satisfied with the quality of troops sent to us by the training establishments. We had some knuckleheads before, and we have about the same percentage now.

The fact of the matter is that in every war in which the United States has been involved, recruits had to be accepted who were not of the standard desired before the war. If you knew history, you would understand that.

Nothing new, here, so what is your point? If anything, it might be argued that this situation points out how utterly foolish it was to ditch the selective service army and substitute an all-volunteer force -- which I believe was done by a Democrat-controlled Congress. Some might suggest that the very people whining about the difficulty of attracting high-quality volunteers are the same people who guaranteed that problem would come into being.
It is probably not appropriate for me to express an opinion about the volunteer vs. draftee army issue, so I will refrain. But the argument CAN certainly be made.

Lily
You lie like most Leftist. I spent 12 years in the military and they continue to have high standards for enlitment. Those that enlist continute to have a higher education level than the general public; they continue to come from a higer socioeconomic level than the general public; they continue to be degraded by Leftist with lies like yours.

In response to Ccorbett
"And as I have repeatedly pointed out, you cannot use NBC capability as a justification for war since every nation on the planet has such a capability."

What you DID was claim that Chem/Bio weapons were ineffective since the last few efforts to use them didn't go so well. You are in error.

"I certainly wonder why you are not willing to fight for your country."

Wonder no longer:
SSG James Anderson
36th Engineer Brigade
Bagram AFB

In response to Corbett
"My point is that if one is of military age and supports this war, proclaims it as the war of wars etc the most important thing in our culture, ours vrs theirs.
Then one is a hypocrit if one doesnt enlist to fight in it."

And once again, your argument would make hypocrites of scores of millions of Americans who thought that the better option for themselves was remaining home and maintaining the economy.

I still contend that the reason persons select this line of argument it that it justifies their OWN refusal to put forth any effort in support of their nation.

MyOpine
Thanks for the warning, but if you were genius enough to event a contraption like that, your posts on townhall would probably be more lucid and logical. I think I'm safe "refreshing" away with no regard for the consequences.

Have a good weekend.

Olberman Rocks
Ok, BUT;

Since I have to live with the bad reputation of making an idiot threat over the internet;

From now on you had better duck to the side each time you hit "Refresh".

I am about to test my new invention to send a .45 hardball over the internet and one of these days you will hit refresh and it will come through the screen at you doing 850fps.

Good night Olberman.

Riddle Me This
Why is it that questioning sending our troops (without proper body armour) to face possible death in a quagmire considered "not supporting the troops?"

If you wanted to support them, stop slashing their benefits and giving them Walter Reed Hospital-style conditions when they return.

Mary C.

RAN
"there's no oil in Sudan, so there's no interest there."

Your an f'n idiot. There is not any oil in Bosnia, Kosovo, Lebanon, Somalia, Haiti, Afghanistan, Korea or Veitnam.

Face it. You and your ilk are nothing but anit-American Leftist who worships the collective state, wish to establish a totalitarian socialist state where the “unenlightened” are sent off to “reeducation camps.” God forbid that the USA actually intervenes in an area where we truly have vital national interest.

There are plenty of socialist countries to which you can emigrate, COMMRADE.

MyOpine
This is a serious post MyOpine. There's a difference between lying and an honest misunderstanding.

Here's your post that I misunderstood: "That was real brave of you to take two cowardly shots at me and lie about me after I signed off last night.
It was real clever too.
I am probably the most vindictive person you will ever meet in your lifetime.
I know where to find you and I kept prints of those two cheapshots".

Could a reasonable person misconstrue the above post as a threat? When you said you knew where to find me, is it far-fetched to assume that you're saying you know where I live? It wasn't until you later explained that townhall was the place you would find me that the quote was put into proper context.

If you wish to label the misunderstanding as a lie, go right ahead. Either way, if it upsets you so, I apologize.

Olberman the habitual LIAR!
Nop!
You lied and said I threatened you.

Corbett
You are just too stupid to understand that WE don't make the rules of war.

I am sorry you can't face reality without trying to blame me for everything you don't like.

As to you calling me a pig?
Hey YOU are the one who associates with NAMBLA!
While we are calling names,
I CALL YOU A LIBERAL!
That is absolutely the filthiest thing in this World!

Corbett and The Keyboard Commando
Corbett, I never saw the movie, but Paul's a good one, so it has to be good. M. O.'s a character, and even though his idiocy can't go unchallenged, a little sarcasm keeps me from pulling my hair out.

MyOpie (see, I can spell your name wrong too), maybe we got off on the wrong foot. Allow me to give you a compliment. You may be an obnoxious, unimformed, sactimonious, self righteous, propaganda spewing idiot, but at least you don't have a twin. Now, can we bury the hatchett?

Might Makes Right
MyOpine writes, "If you were a little better informed you would know that it is the VICTOR who decides who is the War Criminal."

So in your opinion, might makes right. You ARE a scoundrel.

I was always told never to wrestle with a pig, you get dirty & the pig enjoys it.

You sir, have proven yourself to be a pig -- completely devoid of any moral scruples whatsoever.

I bid you good night.

Corbett
It is YOUR Party that prolongs this war by declaring America's DEFEAT and promising the enemy a victory.

This recruits many to the side of those who Defeat America!

Which Democrat inspired recruits do you think will blow up a market place or plant an IED?

YOU help to prolong this war.
The extra casualties are your doing.

firefox22
How do you fight a religion? You can kill everyone who professes it, but even the Israelites balked at doing that when God commanded them to do so. So genocide is out.

So we must have some other way to destroy Wahabism. War is not the answer.

So what is the answer? How do you get someone to stop practicing an evil and wicked religion? By doing the opposite of war.

Love your enemies -- ever hear of Someone saying that before? We win against Islam by spreading the Gospel. And that's the only way we're going to win. Only the true religion can destroy a false one.

The sooner we learn that, the better for everyone.

Corbett & Olbermann the LIAR
No Olbersissy, that was NOT an apology.

Since both of you skatterbrained buffoons seem to be having the same delusions;

I am sure being an American Patriot makes anyone a war criminal in the eyes of cowards like you.

As to War Crimes?
If you were a little better informed you would know that it is the VICTOR who decides who is the War Criminal.

There was plenty of guilt on both sides.

Olberman Rocks
Your apology sort of reminds me of Paul Newman's apology in The Life and Times of Judge Roy Bean.

No Choice But To Win

We might as well get used to it; we have a serious problem in the Middle East. We are not going to talk our way out of it; we are not going to buy our way out of it.
War is inevitable and we better be preparing our country for it.

When a nuclear weapon detonates on our soil, citizens are going to want pay back.
Who are you going to pay back? Don’t you think that Washington knows this?
Radical Islam must be disrupted.

There is no way that a free society can defend against an attack. The more we hunker down here in America and try to protect ourselves, the more freedom we are going to loose.
You are dreaming if you think that Wahabism is going away just because we don’t interfere with them.


No Choice But To Win
People refuse to serve there country for different reasons, but thank God for those who are willing to serve for what ever reason, whether it’s patriotism, educational benefits, or just a job.

I also fear a mind set that can’t see a cause worth fighting for. We have become a society that thinks that we can buy or talk our way out of everything.

We have become a people that loose heart if a war can’t be won like a 2 hour action movie.

I don’t think that any sane person enjoys seeing lives lost and families hurt because of war.

But, I don’t think that it would make much difference if the cause were on our own soil, we would still have the anti war crowd. People have just taken there freedoms for granted, and are willing to give them up if they can just get by without giving up to much.

When you consider the awesome fire power of the US, you would think that we could win a war in a day, without loosing one American.

I don’t know why the administration chose Iraq, and miscalculated the impact of the religious sects, and I don’t think you do either, but I’m sure that someone will tell me.
Iran seems to be more dangerous than Iraq, but what’s done is done. Leaving now is not an option.

As for gripping about the way the war is going, we should be putting our support behind finishing it.

When I was in Vietnam, what gripped us more than anything was the war being run by politicians, and the people back home making us the bad guys.
We spent 20 stinking years trying to win that war because the politicians didn’t have the stomach to take on China.
We don’t have the stomach to take on the countries necessary to win this one either.

The American people could have an influence on getting this war resolved , but instead of moving the government to do what it takes to get it done, we want to cut and run just like Nam.

Oh well, there’s been so many articles written on this subject that all we are doing is re playing old news.

CONTINUED

Insanity
Continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result.

You gotta love those people who find themselves in a hole and continue to dig.

But sane people know that the first rule of holes is that when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

MyOpine, I'll leave you to your shoveling. Talk about digging as much as you want. But the fact remains that we cannot stay in Iraq forever and even you admit that this war will never end. So one day we are going to bring our boys home -- extract them if you will. And when we leave, Iraq will be the disaster it has always been.

The only question is how many of our boys are killed and maimed in the meantime.

Trughes
Have you heard of War Crimes? Starting unnecessary wars of aggression, against disproportionately weaker opponents...?

That's what they hanged Tojo for...

Corbett
Radical Islam has been attacking America since it's conception.
It dates back to Franklin's time.

This war has been going on since Biblical Times.
You are entitled to your twisted idea that America is responsible for Radical Islam.

You are entitled to any opinion you like.
If you express your insane opinion implying dire insults to others you can expect their patience with you to shorten somewhat.

I think you are wrong.
I KNOW YOU ARE IRRELEVANT!
It is a little late to quarrel over who started it.
This is a war, not a school yard spat.

Like I keep trying to tell you;
We have two options, ONLY TWO!
Keep the war in Iraq or bring it home to America.

You can do all the verbal tap dances you want to but it will not change these two options.
Take your pick.

Or maybe you have a 3rd option? "EXTRACTION"?

Twain Quote
MyOpine wrote: IT DOES NOT MATTER A TINKERS DAMN WHO STARTED THIS WAR OR WHY!

Twain wrote: My country can do no wrong in infantile. My country right or wrong is infamous.

MyOpine, if we take you seriously, we can only conclude that you are a scoundrel. I prefer to think that you are a little overwrought & that upon reflection, you will wish to disassociate yourself with that statement.

MyOpine
Due to my overwhelming desire to witness you correctly spell my name (BTW, Olberman Rocks isn't my real name), here's your apology. I'm sorry for expecting a reasonable dialogue from someone who's obviously in the early stages of alzheimers.

Also, stating that it doesn't matter who starts a war renders you intellectually deficient and morally bankrupt, so please don't cast aspersions on other bloggers.

P. S. If you respond, I expect my name to be spelled correctly. After all, you did receive an apology from me.

all you have to know...
about this war is that Bush now compares it to Vietnam, which is exactly what we (the hated left) said before the war.

Have you heard of War Crimes? Starting unnecessary wars of aggression, against disproportionately weaker opponents...? Have you heard that some "liberals" are not completely opposed to the death penalty?

Olbermann the habitual LIAR!
When you get around to an apology for lies about me I will spell your name right!


I tried to tell you this once before.
You were too dense then but I will TRY AGAIN!

IT DOES NOT MATTER A TINKERS DAMN WHO STARTED THIS WAR OR WHY!

America is at war whether or not you like it!
This war will be fought to a conclusion!
You being a liberal probably assume whatever is bad for America is good for Liberals.
We expect you to help the enemy.

MyOpine
I think that Olberman Rocks has the most chartable view -- your meds must be wearing off.

I will put this very simply so that even you can understand it.

We were attacked because the United States has meddled in Middle Eastern affairs for the last half century. We have subverted their governments. We have propped up corrupt regimes. We have killed their women and children. We have bombed their cities. We have starved them. We have destroyed their water treatment plants in a deliberate effort to spread disease to their children. We denied them food and medicine. We have occupied their land. The list goes on and on.

Guess what? It made them mad. Can you imagine that? We've done this for 50+ years and they they got angry. They attacked the United States using the only method available to them.

Is it acceptable? No. But it sure as hell is understandable. If Red China did even half of this to us, we'd fight like demons.

So what do we do about it? Your idea is to do more of the same. Pardon me for saying so, but that just won't work. You can't make them like us by killing more of their people. And since you can't kill them all, your idea is a losing proposition. There are no two ways about it. If we stay, the problem gets worse.

If we stay in the middle of their world, they will continue to hate us and continue to attack us. What's more, it is completely understandable that they do so. Not acceptable, but understandable.

Its time to start using our heads and start doing what's best for the nation. And the best thing we can do is get our heads out of the hornet's nest.

Is there any part of this you don't understand?


Conservative = War?
This notion also disturbs me. Yet most of these people call themselves conservatives. What do they wish to conserve?

Certainly not the ideals of the founders. George Washington's warning about entering foreign wars is anathema to them. So is Adams' stricture against seeking monsters to slay. Jefferson is also given short shrift.

And those of us who talk of duty to our nation are berated and called "liberals". And I suppose we are -- in the sense that the word had when the nation was founded. But for the life of me I cannot see how they can be called conservatives. Surely, no conservative can denigrate a man for holding ideals such as duty & honor.

I never thought to see the day when so many would argue that they owed no duty to defend our country if it is in danger -- and call themselves conservatives.

Liberals took our name from us & perverted its meaning. Now these warmongers have taken "conservative" & perverted its meaning. What shall those of us who wish to preserve the founding principles of the nation call ourselves?

MyOpine
I think your meds are starting to wear off. Take a fresh dosage, then read the following with an open mind.

To give the readers a better idea of who they're dealing with, I think I'll list the 7 examples I gave as reasons the RIGHT (not necessarily Bush) hasn't supported the troops. They're as follows:

The right has (1)doctored intelligence (2)fabricated a threat that didn't exist (3)failed to provide proper equipment (4)refused to listen to the generals (you know, the war experts) (5)Failed to prepare for the post war maintenance (6)made our soldiers sitting ducks with no rules of engagement and (7)refuses to state what victory entails.

I really never referenced Bush, though the shoe does fit. But I wasn't disrespectful. Only a simpleton would take offense of the president being scrutinized on his job performance.

And I never called conservatives keyboard commandos. I called YOU and INKLING REVIVAL keyboard commandos. After all, your testosterone filled exhuberance from behind your keyboard would be more useful in Iraq.

And finally, don't forget that I disclosed the fact that I'm either H-T or O-R, depending on the computer I'm using. Now, WHY DOES ANY OF THAT MATTER!!!!!!? Quick, give an answer before dementia TOTALLY takes over.

Corbett
You implied you knew a way to "EXTRACT" America from this war.

I asked you for it and you give me a long winded run around sprinkled with your sarcastic rhetoric.

Myself?
Like I said;
This will be a long war.
Whether or not you sissyfied Cut&Run COWARDS like it or not!
I don't think there is anything you can write here or anywhere else that will shorten this war.

Like I said before also;
WE ONLY HAVE TWO OPTIONS!
We can take this war to the enemy. (Now in Iraq)
Or we can let them bring it to us here in America!

Is that too hard for you to understand?
You seem to think that everyone in favor of keeping the war on foreign soil should enlist.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion.
I for one think you are insane.
Please go join with al Qaeda where you belong and good riddance.

MyOpine
You, sir, have not maintained the decency of debate. Calling people names is a sign of weakness both morally and intellectually. When all you can think to do is to call people names, then you have lost the argument.

Extracting Ourselves From This War
MyOpine appears to believe that since we invaded Iraq, we are obligated to stay -- presumably until there is peace in the Middle East. So having invaded a country that posed no threat to the United States, we are to compound the problem by occupying it indefinitely. Now that makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

Iraq was a mess before we got there. It is a mess now. And it will be a mess when we leave. Those people have been fighting each other since the dawn of time. They will continue to fight each other until the end of time.

Does that mean that we should be embroiled in their fighting forever?

I have a question for all of you warhawks out there: What will victory look like? How can we tell when the war is over & we can come home?

First, it was until Iraq's military was defeated and they posed no threat to the US. Then it was until Saddam was captured. Then it was until a constitution was written. And then it was elections. And then it was when the Iraqi defense force could keep the peace -- but now we know that that will never happen because there has never been peace there & never will be.

So when is it going to be over? Tell us -- that's the very least you can do. TELL US HOW TO RECOGNIZE VICTORY WHEN WE SEE IT.

Corbett
You are quick to insinuate all who want to keep the war in Iraq as cowards;

Since you want to work on behalf of al Qaeda, I call YOU COWARD because you do not join the Insurgents as a Foreign Fighter.

You are so eager for America to loose in Iraq then go there and fight for YOUR side!
COWARD!