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Friday, November 02, 2007
Linda Chavez :: Townhall.com Columnist
Tortured Justice
by Linda Chavez
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Judge Michael Mukasey seemed a shoo-in for confirmation to attorney general when he was nominated in September, but now his nomination seems in genuine peril. Democrats who were quick to praise his stellar credentials are suddenly mum on whether they'll vote for the retired federal judge -- that is if his nomination even makes it to the floor of the Senate.

Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., has finally scheduled a committee vote on the nomination next week, but unless at least one Democrat votes to move Mukasey's name forward to the full Senate, the nomination will die in committee.

The Democrats' newfound reservations center on Mukasey's testimony at hearings in mid-October and subsequent written answers he provided committee members this week in which he refused to declare waterboarding torture and therefore illegal.

The technique -- which entails tying a person to a board with his feet elevated, putting a cloth over his face and then pouring water on it -- simulates drowning. Mukasey has said that the method is "repugnant" and may well cross the line that defines torture, which he says is clearly illegal under U.S. law.

But Mukasey won't satisfy Democrats' insistence that he declare waterboarding torture, saying that he has not been sufficiently briefed on the actual use of this coercive interrogation method against a small handful of enemy detainees to be unequivocal in declaring what was done illegal.

It is widely believed that the CIA subjected Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the man who directed the suicide-hijackings that killed some 3,000 persons on September 11, 2001, to waterboarding when he was captured. We don't know for sure because such matters are classified. The Bush administration has said that Mohammed's interrogation, by whatever methods, has yielded invaluable intelligence that interrupted plots in progress and saved countless lives.

Let's assume for the moment both assumptions are true: Mohammed was subjected to waterboarding and he gave up information that allowed the U.S. to prevent more attacks. Would the Democrats really prefer that a U.S. attorney general declare this a violation of U.S. law, even without knowing the exact circumstances of what was done? Wouldn't he then be obligated to launch an investigation into who conducted the interrogation and prosecute them? And what if the president personally authorized waterboarding?

One year ago, in a response to a question on the proverbial "ticking time bomb" scenario, Sen. Hillary Clinton told the New York Daily News, "In the event we were ever confronted with having to interrogate a detainee with knowledge of an imminent threat to millions of Americans, then the decision to depart from standard international practices must be made by the president, and the president must be held accountable." She has since reversed herself, as she has on many issues.

But the Democrats, including Sen. Clinton, seem to want to lead Mukasey into a trap. They want him to declare waterboarding torture, which is illegal, and then they'll consider confirming him. And then what?

If it turns out the president of the United States personally authorized waterboarding, what would the Democrats want Attorney General Mukasey to do next? Would the president be brought up on criminal charges for violating U.S. prohibitions against torture? Or would the attorney general recommend that Congress impeach him? Or could he petition the Supreme Court to decide whether the president's constitutional powers as commander in chief allow him to violate U.S. law during wartime?

You can just imagine some Democrats salivating at the prospect of an administration appointee going after his boss in this fashion. But the country would be the worse for it.

It may be that waterboarding is torture. Like Judge Mukasey, I'm not sure. The drowning sensation lasts a short time and causes no lasting physical harm, and some of our own military and intelligence operatives have undergone the procedure to train them in how to resist revealing information under interrogation.

Even if waterboarding is torture, however, I can certainly imagine circumstances in which it is justifiable to use the technique to save lives. Those circumstances ought to be rare and require authorization at the highest levels. But if waterboarding would mean preventing another 9/11-style attack, I think most Americans -- including most Democratic senators -- wouldn't hesitate to allow it. Trying to force Judge Mukasey to declare otherwise is just playing politics with his nomination.

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About The Author

Linda Chavez is chairman of the Center for Equal Opportunity and author of Betrayal: How Union Bosses Shake Down Their Members and Corrupt American Politics .

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©Creators Syndicate

Okay Linda,
Sure. It's easy to imagine inane hypotheticals and then use them to make policy decisions. How about this?:

What if the only way to save America from another 9/11 was for you to watch your family be murdered?

I'm sure that even if this were torture, you could certainly imagine circumstances in which it is justifiable for America to make this sacrifice to save lives. Those circumstances ought to be rare and require authorization at the highest levels. But if it meant preventing another 9/11-style attack, I think most Americans -- including most Democratic senators -- wouldn't hesitate to allow it. Trying to force Judge Mukasey to declare otherwise is just playing politics with his nomination.

Please
It strains credulity that Mr Mukasey would not have been briefed, to use his term, on an issue so relevant to his confirmation. Given the circumstances of his predecessor's departure, if nobody troubled to explain waterboarding to Mukasey, he should have taken the initiative to find out for himself. Not to do so would be like a young neurosurgeon taking his state board certification exams without looking up the word "brain". Mukasey's response "Nobody briefed me" is reminiscent of his predecessor Alberto Gonzales saying 77 times "I don't remember".

Bush II has made the centerpiece of his presidency the expansion of executive power, and this began long before 9-11. The Congress does well to stand for no more of it. And today's performance was shameful---Bush (at the Heritage Foundation, naturally) and Cheney both playing the "do what we say or you will all die" card again. The matter is simple: either Mukasey believes in the rule of law or he does not. And we have just disposed of an Attorney General who does not.

Did Biden score & Rudy take a hit?

my 2 cents
Good piece and the last two sentences sum it up nicely.

The dems are playing politics with his nomination.

what a surprise!!!

libs
Cry me an effen river libs. When the dirty nuke goes off (its inevitable), I gope you're close to it.

Torture
If Lilly and Dolly are against it I am for it GOD BLESS AMERICA

Silly lilly
Long before 9-11? Are you kidding me? Bush began the expansion of executive powers "long before 9-11"? He was in office all of 8 months when 9-11 occurred. How in the world could he have done what you say?

I could say that your a lot like Satan. Every once in a while you'll sprinkly a little truth into your lies in an effort to make those lies seem more credible. I used to think some of the THer's were too hard on poor little old lady lilly. Now I see you deserve the disgust you get. You did it the old fashioned way. You earned it.

Hey Dolly ...
your post of the definition of torture would also then include keeping Michael Moore away from his Snickers and Twinkies, Bill Clinton from being able to fondle his underlings, and telling Hillary she could no longer date Janet Reno on the side.

Lilly and Dolly
I find it interesting how you show up on select articles to post your garbage. You sure stay away for enough of them. I would kill for my family, no torture needed. Just my gun in my hands pointed at their brains. No more torture for you to fuss about.

Dolly and Lilly--
It is really something how the 2 of you post on some articles and others you run from. Make no mistake about my take on torture. I don't care what they have to do to find out what they need to know. I wouldn't torture - my gun in my hands pointed directly at their brains. Wouldn't want you accusing me of torturing anybody. I would kill to protect my loved ones from anybody.

Dolly (al queda in America) Llama
as a terrorist sympathizer...what would work...on YOU!

knight_of_baawa asks: what say you to...
a man who would torture others?

My guess would be....

'Allahu Akbar min kulli shay'

Why don't you take your crusade to the ME...say IRAN...I think you might find the answer to your question...personally!

And Knight of bwa ha ha ha
is proof that people will say anything. Period.

Mr. Nobody : assumes like assclown?
Never said I advocated Torture. Who are you anyway...oh right...Mr Nobody!

When discussing
the topic of torture and its intended consequences I am constantly amazed at the input from those who approach it from some humanistic point of view. John McCain doesn't believe in the use of torture, nor should he. His firsthand knowledge of its inhumaneness and lack of efficacy is acknowledged. I must say this, however. I attended a military 'school', as did McCain, back in the '60s intended to somewhat prepare you for life as a POW. Waterboarding was not introduced as a learning tool at that time, but was later. I withstood the efforts aimed at me during this school, it wasn't easy or pleasant, and, frankly, I knew I was going to 'be released' fairly soon so I had that going for me. Folks, if they had put me on the board, I would have given them my wifes address, phone number, and bra size. With me it would have worked.

I said all of that to say this; if I thought someone (not necessarily just a terrorist) had knowledge of a potential action that may hurt my family, I would take whatever steps necessary to acquire that knowledge, hoping that the recepient was as weak as me.

Chopper John
I am not a very brave woman. I cringe at crickets, grasshoppers and katydids. The mere thought of a waterbug in my hair is enough to raise the hair on the back of my neck.

However, if someone intends to do ANY harm to my children, I will do ANYTHING, including wading through a pool of crickets, to prevent anything from happening to my kids. I will do whatever it takes to make sure my kids are safe. When it comes to my family, it's me against them, and they will lose. If they have info that would cause harm to my family, they will WISH for waterboarding.

YLG, amen, luv.
What perplexes me is this. We're Americans, our families live here, so what is so unbelievable about wanting to take or use any measure/method available to protect them? I don't understand the mindset. The left may say they don't understand why we can't treat humans as humans. Hell, we do that better than anybody. We even execute the most despicable excuses for human beings humanely (not so happy about that myself).

I haven't beheaded anyone lately, and I wouldn't do that if someone had my gang in sight. Nope, I'm humane, but I ain't that humane.

Chopper John
I guess it all depends on what the definition of "humane" is. Let's face it: liberals don't think lethal injections are humane, but suicide bombings are. I think it's because the injection puts the criminal to sleep first, and slowly paralyzes him, rather that blowing up and taking everybody with you quickly.

BTW, I'm still blushing about your compliment yesterday. Raider red, too!

Answer Dolly or its THE BOARD!
Seriouly, What would work on YOU?

To Dolly On torture 2
Not sure if my other post took.

You claim that Torture is defined as 'For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him "

Well it is simple Ms lawyer, is the waterboarding Severe? What is or is not Severe? Who determines what is and what is not? THe ourt in Holland or in Amercia?

Pulling out a fingernail is severe. Is making someone think they are drowning?

Is Condemning People to Torture Wrong?
God condemns people to eternal torture in Hell, so if condemning people to torture is always evil, this would mean that God is evil - a contradiction.

The whole discussion misses the point
In a recent case Scotus ruled that Congress should define what interrogation techniques are acceptable. Any controversial opinions or actions by members of the justice or defense departments prior to the legislature's establishment of a definition of what is OK and what is "torture" (or otherwise unacceptable) is pure political garbage.

You can't blame Mukasey (or anyone else) for being on the "wrong side" of a line that had not yet been drawn.

As is typical of Democrats, the same members of the Congress (in this case, Senators) who didn't draw the lines they were supposed to draw now claim that Mukasey can't be AG because they say he was on the wrong side of where they would have drawn it or drew it after the fact.

In reality what we have here is just more LYING by the Democrats in the Senate. They oppose Mukasey because Bush chose him. Period. They are continuing the obstructionism of Bush that has motivated and defined the conduct of Democrat Senators throughout the Bush Presidency. Obstructing Bush is all that has ever mattered to them, and what's best for the country be damned.

wiseone writes: wisely!
Prepare to be attacked!

Nice try dbz77...
but God does not condemn people to hell. You condemn yourself if you fail to acknowledge and obey Him. See? Simple as that.

FROG
So then those terrorists condemn themselves to be waterboarded.

posted on Charen's similar article
Judge Mukasey was proposed as a suitable replacement for Gonzales by none other than the Senior Senator from New York, Charles Schumer.

During a 2004 Senate Judicial hearing which was discussing torture, Schumer was quoted as saying the following:

Judicial Committee - 2004
"SCHUMER: And I'd like to interject a note of balance here. There are times when we all get in high dudgeon. We ought to be reasonable about this. I think there are probably very few people in this room or in America who would say that torture should never, ever be used, particularly if thousands of lives are at stake.

Take the hypothetical: If we knew that there was a nuclear bomb hidden in an American city and we believed that some kind of torture, fairly severe maybe, would give us a chance of finding that bomb before it went off, my guess is most Americans and most senators, maybe all, would say, "Do what you have to do."

So it's easy to sit back in the armchair and say that torture can never be used. But when you're in the foxhole, it's a very different deal."
_____________________________________________

All day today, tape recordings of his saying these words have been played over and over again and these only serve to highlight what a disingenuous bunch of brain dead politicians are doing in the present hearings.

Charen and Chavez, like the Senators, misses the mark by failing to mention this fact.




to Lilly and Dolly llama
Those terrorists are not covered under the protections given by the Geneva Convention, the U.S. Constitution, and/or State/Local laws so your whole argument is moot.

The mere fact that they are allowed to continue to draw breath is infinitely more mercy than should given to them in the first place. Through their (the Islamic Jihadis) "choice" they have forfiet any and all claim to humanity and its attending benefits!!

I thought all Liberal Neo-Communists/Dhimmicrats whorshipped at the altar of personal "choice". Well these Jihadi animals have made the "choice" to abort themselves from humanity, and so you should respect and accept their decision.

Wise one,
that one paragraph above was terrific, but reading it made me crave a cold one. I'm sure you know the one I mean.

knight of whateverthehell,
re your comment about destroying someone intellectually; I quickly scrolled back up 'cause I usually skip your stuff. I think I skipped it again. Can you elaborate?

How about this?
Fewer people have died from being waterboarded than have died from being a passenger in Ted Kennedy's car.

knight of baawa
The Geneva Convention prohibits us from torturing enemy soldiers.

Al Qaeda terrorists are not enemy soldiers. QED.

Uh oh,
speaking of torture, knightofwhateverthehell called me a simpleton. I'll talk! I'll talk!

Now, what part of your above was supposed to impress me? If you are as intellectually alert as you seem to think, you might devine that SERE was what I was referring to above.

If your recent post, you know, the one following your intellectual name calling, you seem to rejoice in 'proving' that waterboarding is torture. You're damn right it is, and we should be using it anytime and as much as necessary.

You know, knightofwhateverthehell, I don't want you to take this personally, but I couldn't give two farts in a whirlwind what happens to you; but I would feel badly that, because those who are in the business of watching out for the country failed and those you care about suffered the consequences. Unlike you, I'm far more interested in them than I am Sheik Mohammed What the Hell.















The international law we created says so
Tinsldr2: "Well it is simple Ms lawyer, is the waterboarding Severe? What is or is not Severe?"
------------------------
As we prosecuted Nazis for it, we are essentially estopped from proclaiming that waterboarding does not qualify as torture. To wit:

"In 1948, Sullivan reports, there was a U.S.-run war-crimes trial in Norway prosecuting Nazis convicted of "enhanced interrogation techniques" in the Second World War. The victims had been "paramilitary Norwegians, operating as an insurgency, against an occupying force." Various implements of torture were used, including "cold baths and blows and kicks in the face and all over the body."

Previous Nazi records actually show that "the use of hypothermia and waterboarding (both later authorized by Bush and Rumsfeld) were initially forbidden" by the Nazis—but, Sullivan adds, "historians have found that all the bureaucratic restrictions were eventually broken or abridged. Once you start torturing, it has a life of its own."

At the Norwegian war-crimes trial, "The Nazi defense of the [enhanced] techniques is almost verbatim that of the Bush administration: 'The victims were not in uniform . . . and the acts of torture in no case resulted in death.'" (This became the Bush position in the 2002 Justice Department "torture memos" drafted by John Yoo.)

Significantly, in the Norwegian war-crimes trial, Sullivan writes, "The Court came to the conclusion that such acts, even though they were committed with the connivances of superiors in rank, or even on their orders, must be regarded and punished as serious war crimes."

Chopper John
I'm still laughing at you, simpleton.

dbz77
WWJD?

Jesus wouldn't torture people.

So why are christians in favor of torture? Doesn't sound very christian to me.

One more for Chopper John
You want to torture people? Sounds like you're a subhuman to me. I think you should be locked up and forced to undergo the torture you want others to endure. After all: since you're not human, it doesn't matter. You can scream all you like, but no human will care, since you're not human.

Waterboarding = torture
http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-t orture-perio/

"In fact, waterboarding is just the type of torture then Lt. Commander John McCain had to endure at the hands of the North Vietnamese. As a former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, California I know the waterboard personally and intimately. SERE staff were required undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception. I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people."

"On a Mekong River trip, I met a 60-year-old man, happy to be alive and a cheerful travel companion, who survived the genocide and torture … he spoke openly about it and gave me a valuable lesson: “If you want to survive, you must learn that ‘walking through a low door means you have to be able to bow.’” He told his interrogators everything they wanted to know including the truth. They rarely stopped. In torture, he confessed to being a hermaphrodite, a CIA spy, a Buddhist Monk, a Catholic Bishop and the son of the king of Cambodia. He was actually just a school teacher whose crime was that he once spoke French. He remembered “the Barrel” version of waterboarding quite well. Head first until the water filled the lungs, then you talk"

"The Washington Post reported in 2006 that it was mainly America’s enemies that used it as a principal interrogation method. After World War 2, Japanese waterboard team members were tried for war crimes."

Not even close, Psalm23
Psalm23: "Those terrorists are not covered under the protections given by the Geneva Convention, the U.S. Constitution, and/or State/Local laws so your whole argument is moot."
--------------------
Not at all. The Covenant Against Torture does not discriminate between lawful and unlawful combatants.

Yep, knightofwhateverthehell,
you got me again. I am definitely intellectually overwhelmed. Is it your nap time yet?

Nap time for Chopper John
Go to sleep, little one. You'll feel better when you wake up. And please: this conversation is for adults. No kids.

Another A+ from Linda Chavez
That's all I gotta say...

Wow, once again,
intellectually slammed by knightofwhateverthehell. The nap thing was totally unoriginal on your part knighty. Can't you come up with something clever on your own? By the way, if you check my above post and use your fingers and toes, you'll be able to figure out that, while not advanced, my age is getting up there. Based on the immaturity of every one of your posts, at least those in your own words, I would guess that I'm old enough to be your father. If such were the case, I'd be kicking your a$$ right now physically as well as verbally.

Oh, and one last bit about torture for you. Even if it doesn't result in obtaining the desired information, at least there would be the satisfaction of knowing the sorry bast^rd experienced exquisite and longlasting pain. How does that suit you?

knight_of_baawa Does put one to sleep!
Haven't you gone on your Crusade yet? remember ...

'Allahu ...gulg...Akbar ...glug... min kulli shay ..gulg gulg'





Ron does put one to sleep
Haven't you gone on your Crusade yet? remember ...

'Allahu ...gulg...Akbar ...glug... min kulli shay ..gulg gulg'

Poor Chopper John
He thinks that exacting a pound of flesh, even on an innocent person, is a good thing. He's a sick, sadistic, twisted thing who would be quite at home stuffing bodies into an oven in Auschwitz.

Subhuman.

Frog
I just read your 9:18 post. Man you are inhumane!!! Do you realize how lonely janet would get? Mike would waste away to nothing! You're a sick man,dude

Knight of baawa
Here's hoping that none of your relatives ever get taken hostage or kidnapped. I can see it now, the crook will say we've got your family and there's nothing you can do, they're going to die in exactly 24 hours. I and my people know where they are but we'll never tell. Now you will just sit down in the corner and mourn your loss as you would never do anything to help your people. I would mourn their passing also because they didn't have someone with a big enough set to help them. You must walk with your knees rubbing together as there's nothing to keep them apart.

HUNTER/TANCREDO "08"

The case for torture....
Does anyone really believe that if the USA announces to the world that we do not use torture in the questioning of prisoners that the terrorists will stop using torture?

Did the Geneva Convention agreement help Senator McCain when he was a prisoner?

The bad guys (those of radical Islam) of today, do not respect the Geneva Convention, they are not defending a nation but rather an ideology. One that encourages martyrdom of it's own followers and death of infidels. I seriously doubt that they even care about information they might glean from someone they take prisoner. They just go straight to the most gruesome ways of killing the infidel.

Respect for human life is seen as weakness and gives them even more pleasure in torturing and killing those who would show them a shred of human kindness.

They are predators of the most evil kind. They do treat us as they expect to be treated. I for one think we should oblige them. If we do not fight them on the same level they fight us we will not win. It is a matter of self defense for our nation and all it's people.

If, God Forbid, they show up at your door someday, will you invite them in to discuss your differences over tea and crumpets?

Knight of BAWWWWWW
Number one, in defense of our country yes I would and have in the past sworn to.
Number two, You show me one case where the people we are fighting have shown any respect for human life. We couldn't possibly lessen their respect for human life as they have NONE.
Number three don't tell me what my convictions are when you don't even know what yours are wimp. Why don't you go and cry to daily kos like a good little lib boy.

No one explains...
If waterboarding is permissible under the circumstances described, why is it not permissible under others? Why just for international terrorism? Many more Americans are murdered in gang-related fights than in terrorism attacks. Why not torture them? Heck, we could do away with the entire court system and waterboard all accused criminals. It would be cheaper, more efficient, and produce more reliable answers. Why not? Any responses?

Think for yourself
"If waterboarding is permissible under the circumstances described, why is it not permissible under others?"

1. Waterboarding cannot legally be used as an interrogation technique in domestic criminal cases because the accused has the right to remain silent (I believe this was decided by SCOTUS in the Esposito case).

In fact, if an arrested and charged suspect asks to have a lawyer any further attempt at communication with the accused is considered a violation of his rights.

2. Rulings like Esposito and Miranda (advising the accused of his rights) have the effect of rendering any "evidence" obtained through coercion such as torture inadmissible in a court of law. In the war against terror our interrogators aren't interested in getting a conviction. They are interested in locating the prisoner's cohorts, weapons, cash, etc.

If Gitmo prisoners were granted jury trials in civilian courts, which is a stated right of US citizens in the Constitution, surely anything that was "confessed" under torture (including waterboarding, whether it meet some legal definition of "torture" or not), and any physical evidence found as a result of information obtained through torture, would be inadmissible.

These rules do not apply to terrorists detained at Gitmo.


Knight of Baawwwhaww
I STATED my convictions the same as you did to me. You sir, are a coward and a sniveling wimp of the worst type. I can see it now, if the enemy invades from the southern border you will be crossing into Canada crying" I don't wanna' fight. Let somebody else do it!! Waaaa Waaa. I want my mommy!!!!"

HUNTER/TANCREDO "08"

stop this torture immediately
The worse type of torture that can be imagined, is to take people out of the environment that they are familiar with, and force them to cross a river, a desert, arid plains, then try to make a living, and find food in a place where no one wants them.

We must stop this torture immediately, build a fence bigger, and stronger and do it now.

Jim
You are 100% right and the sooner they build it the sooner the torture stops. Of course I don't know if it's them getting or doing the torture

Knight of wimp
Now who's throwing around the puff n' stuff? Hey, I hear Daily kos and Pappa kerry calling. You better run. I guess he wants you to help mamma hillary. All your poor underpriveleged Daily kos pout N' cry are just breaking my heart.Please stop it hurts. Boo freaking hoo!

TORTURE, that’s what!!!
Torture has been a tool of war for thousands of years. In the beginning they threw stones, then someone made a slingshot. Someone found that if they put a wall around a town, the stones and slingshots were on no value.

Someone then designed a catapult that could cast large stones over the wall, but they used pots of boiling oil to dump on anyone trying to climb the wall. Then the catapults got bigger, and the wall was no longer much value, so neither were the pots of oil.

When the soldiers met on the open field, bows and arrows, spears and swords were the weapon of choice, until someone invented the gun, so there went the bows, spears, and swords.

Next came balloons that could float over the city and drop bombs, then airplanes that could dissolve a city, and on and on, but you get the idea.

But which weapon was the first to be invented, and has supplied needed information for thousands of years, and has not been replaced with any newer, advanced weapon.

TORTURE, that’s what!!!


for Anastasia
"I wouldn't torture - my gun in my hands pointed directly at their brains."

As an interrogation method, threats have demonstrably failed to work with these al-Qaeda terrorists. They are fanatics, not only willing but EAGER to die. They are looking forward to frolicking with those reusable virgins in Paradise. Threatening their lives is useless.

Remember what the hijackers of 9-11 did when they woke up that morning? The first thing they did was shave their bodies and carefully clean their genitals, since they wanted to look presentable for all those supernatural virgins.

That's who we're dealing with.

Gives Dems too much credit
> But if waterboarding would mean preventing another 9/11-style attack, I think most Americans -- including most Democratic senators -- wouldn't hesitate to allow it. <

She's giving Dems waaaay too much credit. They are too afraid of looking "uncivilized" to their pals and supporters to allow such a thing, even if it resulted in many dead Americans. Dems value political correctness above all else.

Why the Dems don't want laws
If the Dem senators were sincere in banning waterboarding, they would simply pass a law against it.

The reason they don't do that, is that the Constitution prohibits "ex post facto" law: If waterboarding were made illegal today, no one, including Bush and Cheney, could be punished under that law for any waterboarding they already ordered against Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in years past.

What the Dems are trying to do is get Mukasey to decide ON HIS OWN that Bush and Cheney had already violated EXISTING law. So that they can then have Bush and Cheney charged with war crimes.

Bush shouldn't play. He should just allow the AG post to remain vacant and let the Assistant Attorney General (who is quite conservative) write a letter to Congress stating his own opinion on waterboarding.

for Farmer's Wife
Farmer's Wife writes: "Does anyone really believe that if the USA announces to the world that we do not use torture in the questioning of prisoners that the terrorists will stop using torture?"

In fact, our soldiers were tortured by the Japanese in WW2.

It wasn't till Hiroshima and Nagasaki that we got payback for the Bataan Death March.

I'm still waiting for appropriate payback for 9-11.

I am supporting Rudy Giuliani for President because I think he wants revenge as much as I.

Tickle Fuzzy Hug
SteveL: "If the Dem senators were sincere in banning waterboarding, they would simply pass a law against it."
-----------------------
It's already against the law, and has been since at least the War Crimes Act. Here's a description of what you would prefer to call Tickle Fuzzy Hug (see this great cartoon: http://www.markfiore.com/word_hand_0):

In a further embarrassment for Mr Bush yesterday, Malcolm Nance, an advisor on terrorism to the US departments of Homeland Security, Special Operations and Intelligence, publicly denounced the practice. He revealed that waterboarding is used in training at the US Navy’s Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School in San Diego, and claimed to have witnessed and supervised “hundreds” of waterboarding exercises. Although these last only a few minutes and take place under medical supervision, he concluded that “waterboarding is a torture technique - period”.

The practice involves strapping the person being interrogated on to a board as pints of water are forced into his lungs through a cloth covering his face while the victim’s mouth is forced open. Its effect, according to Mr Nance, is a process of slow-motion suffocation.

Typically, a victim goes into hysterics on the board as water fills his lungs. “How much the victim is to drown,” Mr Nance wrote in an article for the Small Wars Journal, “depends on the desired result and the obstinacy of the subject.

“A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience to horrific, suffocating punishment, to the final death spiral. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch.”

Waterboarding Is Torture - I Did It Myself, says US Advisor
By Leonard Doyle, The Independent/UK
reprinted here: http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/28317

Make them listen....
...to Hillary cackle or speak 24/7. They will beg to be waterboarded, given the choice.

Knight of wimp
For someone who supports Ron Paul, you sure spout a lot of libber bull. I've read your bull before and most of it could be cut and pasted from daily kos and others. I think you are a Hillarity supporter in Ron Paul clothing. And for your "accomplishments" and such ,I could say I'm the Pope and you couldn't prove different. So don't give me bonifides unless you are ready to prove them.

HUNTER/TANCREDO "08"

Knight of wimp
After 57 years, I've probably seen more of the world and experienced more of the world than you even realize exhists. I was wading in rice paddies while you were still cr@ping your diaper yellow so don't tell me about a myopic view of life. I've seen life from a verticle as well as a horizontal view. You try to tell people what to expect and do from the safety of your warm little room on your best friend mr. computer and dream up things to spout at others who have done and seen more than you will ever imagine except in books. Get out of your books and live life, books only give you half of the story, son.

knight of baawa
So who tortures the people in Hell?

Who is torturing terrorists?

Knightof wimp
See, that's where you are wrong ,you assume. I know very well that there are other views of politics and life than lib and conservative, but I call them as I see them and you are Lib all the way. You just aren't smart enough to see it. You are running out of things as now you try to attack my spelling, a basic Libber tactic. Yup, Libber all the way. Next you'll be posting Go momma Hilarity!!!! Like I said, get out of the books, they only tell you half the story,son.

HUNTER/TANCREDO "08"

Knight of wimp
I can walk out any time I want because I'm not insecure like you think I am. The first thing libber you say is we should get out of Iraq right now. Don't deny it as I've seen it. What were all the libbers saying until they thought it might hurt their chances? They still believe it, just don't say it. One other libber thing you say is that if we torture the terrorists we will decrease their respect for life. Pure Lib spew! these people have less respect for human life than I do for a bug. There's nothing we could do to lessen their respect for life when they never had any by religeous creed. Yup pure Lib.

Eastlake
Obviously, your experience lying in rice paddies made you an articulate, intelligent, mature person.

Is that all it takes?

knigtht of wimp
Another lib trick, taking my words out of text and trying to make them say something else. Isn't going to work as I 'm here to de cry any thing you say to me.You neeed to climb down that ladder outside your window and live sonny boy you gotta live.beautiful beaches in vung tao.there were beautiful women all around andwalking in aodais((sp ck)I spent time in thailandand that was afine place. I think the best place ivisited was sydney aus. most frendly people in the world.When they found out where I was I couldnt spend a cent. scooners of beer that would kick your butts and pick it up again.
In thailand you didn't pat children on the head as that was where bhudda lives in the head.
Like I said son, you gotta get out of the books.

So you see knight of your mind
and only your mind. I'm going to hit the sack with my lovely wife and unless we decidedto take a trip, might be back. we make about 6to7 trips a year.It's fungot enough green that We can do it any time. see you sonny boy. why don't you find some of those little guys to play with and mabe they'll tell youa story. I'm gone!!

knight of baawa
So what would be the problem with governments torturing terrorists as punishment for crimes, if, as you claim, God does it?

knight of baawa
God decides what morality is just as He decides what gravity is.

the problem with torture
All of you in favor of using 'any tool at our disposal' are missing the point. Torture is not a tool for information gathering. Would you use a hammer to open a bag of potato chips?

Torture cannot uncover time-sensitive information, because - as you pro-torture folks are saying - they would resist the torture until they were sure the information was irrelevant. Torture only works well for time insensitive information gathering, since all of the truth and lies can be sorted out with investigative work. Torture is ideal for provoking confessions, not for stopping bombs about to go off.

As such, torture is not necessary because the information will become available eventually. And it is ill-advised because it allows foriegn governments to legally torture our service men. No one who truly supports our troops could want to legalize the torture of our service men. So you pro-torture people don't support our troops.

All opposed
to waterboarding, after less strenous means have been used how do you propose to get information if the captive is unwilling to give it you?

Torture?
I would have laughed my butt off and applauded had Leahy asked him what he thought torture was, and he replied something like this:

"Well Senator, I've never been waterboarded, but I know what torture is. It's sitting in this chair for hours, being interrogated by mindless liberals like yourself."

Knight
If it were possible for you to be here I would do it just for you. I don't lack the courage of my convictions, you make giant, stupid assumptions and you don't know me.

In an interview with Brian Ross on ABC (no fans of Bush, the military, or the war) some CIA agents stated, that even though they don't like it, it worked with KSM and 13 other captured terrorist and they got actionable intelligence. You would have passed on getting it, because you want to play nice with the insurgent.

Where did I say I want revenge on muslims? You need to pull your head out, I never said nor implied that. It's not about revenge against muslims, all I'm concerned with is getting the intel, and possibly saving lives, how about you?
Hillary, I asked this earlier, after less strenous method prove unfruitful, how would you get the information or would you even try? Would you be willing to let people die?

How to get credible information
that someone doesn't want you to have? The same way that police get it. Do you think criminals are happy to give information to the police? You cannot get information that people don't want you to have.

The problem that you are having, is that you don't know how interrogation works. Since you can't imagine what would get someone who is going to be sentenced to death to confess to a crime, you can't imagine how to gain credible information during an interrogation. This is no excuse for legalizing the torture of our troops when they are apprehended.

I am not suggesting that we abandon some methods which are illegal to use on Americans, but many will disclose if they are given public credit for their activities, many will disclose if they are promised that their family will be paid. And these are only the beginning of incentive tactics - there are so many techniques, that only the craziest among them will not give up credible information. The point of interrogation is to convince the suspect that revealing information is in his best interest. Then you use this information and all of the other tools at your disposal to gain further credible information.

Most terrorists are not unlike any other criminal. They are proud of the role they play. They want to take credit for their contribution. It is clear, that many of you know nothing about criminal behavior and interrogation techniques. You cannot get credible information from someone who doesn't want to give it - even with torture.

Look at the case of Nguyen Tai.
He was probably one of the most senior North Vietnamese Operatives to be captured by South Vietnamese and American forces. He was tortured for years by the South Vietnamese, and then was properly interrogated by the CIA - without torture. Torture yielded far less results than practical interrogation techniques. Read it for yourself.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelli gence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol48no1/article 06.html

Here is an excerpt:

"What conclusions can we draw about the efficacy and appropriateness of the interrogation techniques used by the South Vietnamese and the Americans in the Tai case? While the South Vietnamese use of torture did result (eventually) in Tai's admission of his true identity, it did not provide any other usable information. The South Vietnamese played the key role in cracking Tai's cover story, but it was their investigation and analysis that put the pieces together to make a solid and incontrovertible identification of Tai, not their use of torture, that scored this success. A sensitive, adept line of questioning that confronted Tai with this evidence and offered him a deal--like the offer by his torturers to exchange admission of his identity for consideration in a notional prisoner exchange--would almost certainly have achieved the same result. Without doubt, the South Vietnamese torture gave Tai the incentive for the limited cooperation he gave to his American interrogators, but it was the skillful questions and psychological ploys of the Americans, and not any physical infliction of pain, that produced the only useful (albeit limited) information that Tai ever provided."

Rhys
I can agree with you on this, I have said less strenous means be applied first, and as you said I would not dismiss those completely. The CIA interrogators at Gitmo said although they didn't like to do it, waterboarding worked and they gained actionable intelligence.


knight of baawa
What is the Euthrypo dilemna?

What's all the fuss about?
I've always taken for granted that governments--ours as well as others--routinely employ torture to gain information. Why would they fail to do so if there's any chance of getting useful information? I don't expect any government, including our own, to abide by traditional or conventional ethical standards if it can gain by not doing so. Any government has every incentive to engage in torture when it is trying to combat an enemy. The world doesn't conform to ethical doctrines in many respects, nor should we expect it to do so.

Torture shouldn't be the first recourse in gaining information, but it will be used--whatever we may think about it from our own ethical viewpoints.

Can you say NERDS????
Eastbay Joe and Knight_of_Baawa, my god you guys need to get a life. Seriously, do you think anyone cares to read your idiotic, juvenile little debate???

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