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Thursday, November 20, 2008
Larry Elder :: Townhall.com Columnist
Time to Reassess the Iraq War?
by Larry Elder
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Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



President-elect Barack Obama, on "60 Minutes," defended the financial bailout package.

Yes, said Obama, the economy continues to suffer, but "I think the part of the way to think about it is things could be worse. … So part of what we have to measure against is what didn't happen and not just what has happened."

Interesting. Why not apply the "what didn't happen" standard to the unpopular Iraq war?

Obama calls the Iraq invasion a "dumb war." Never mind that all of his Democratic presidential nomination Senate opponents -- Sen. Chris Dodd, Sen./VP-elect Joe Biden, Sen. Hillary Clinton and former Sen. John Edwards -- voted for the war. At the time of the invasion of Iraq, more than 70 percent of Americans supported the war. Intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom, Jordan and Egypt -- just to name a few -- assumed that the dictator of Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction.

So, but for the Iraq war, what would have happened?

After 9/11, polls show that between 80 and 90 percent of Americans expected another hit within six months to a year. It didn't happen. One could argue that deposing Saddam Hussein staved off another 9/11 or perhaps even something bigger. Our government dispatched "weapons hunter" David Kay to Iraq, a caricature of whom appeared in Oliver Stone's anti-Bush movie, "W." Kay found no stockpiles of WMD. He did, however, say that Saddam retained the intention and the capability of resuming his WMD program, a resumption that seemed likely upon the removal of the then-imposed economic sanctions.

Kay said he and his team discovered: "A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing (chemical and biological weapons) research. A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of (biological weapons) agents, that Iraqi officials … were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN. Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons. New research on (biological weapon)-applicable agents … and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN. Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation."

But for the Iraq invasion, Libya's Moammar Gadhafi would not have renounced his WMD program. He reportedly stated that he did not want to suffer the same fate as Saddam. As a result of Libya's renunciation and transfer of its WMD program -- now under lock and key in Tennessee -- the State Department removed Libya from its official list of terror-sponsoring states. But for the Iraq war, we would not have uncovered intelligence about the work of Dr. A.Q. Khan, the so-called father of the Islamic bomb.

What about Bush's alleged ineptitude and use of illegal procedures in prosecuting the war?

The President-elect's transition team suggests that Obama might keep Defense Secretary Robert Gates, a proponent of the Bush surge strategy -- a strategy that Obama criticized and predicted would make things worse. That didn't happen. The surge and the change in counterinsurgency strategy successfully brought about long-awaited Iraqi political reconciliation, along with a dramatic reduction in American casualties. And Iraq and America appear ready to finalize a deal to have all the troops out by the end of 2011. Yes, it is a fixed -- reportedly not conditions-based -- timetable, but a timetable that, pre-surge, was unthinkable.

According to Siobhan Gorman, writing in The Wall Street Journal: "President-elect Barack Obama is unlikely to radically overhaul controversial Bush administration intelligence policies, advisers say, an approach that is almost certain to create tension within the Democratic Party. … (Obama) recently voted for a White House-backed law to expand eavesdropping powers for the National Security Agency. … The new president could take a similar approach to revising the rules for CIA interrogations, said one current government official familiar with the transition. Upon review, Mr. Obama may decide he wants to keep the road open in certain cases for the CIA to use techniques not approved by the military, but with much greater oversight."

So was the Iraq war, as Obama insisted, a mission that "never should have been authorized and never should have been waged"?

A Rasmussen poll released a week ago finds voter confidence in the War on Terror at 60 percent -- its "highest level ever." As for Iraq, 42 percent of voters say that, long term, the mission will be judged a success, with 34 percent believing history will judge it a failure (down from 54 percent in March). At the war's beginning, President Bush said when the Iraqi government and military can stand up, we will stand down. Victory, he said, will be achieved when the country can defend itself against its enemies, foreign and domestic, and has established a democratic government in the region that will serve as a reliable ally in the War on Terror.

Mission accomplished?

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About The Author
Larry Elder is a syndicated radio talk show host and best-selling author. His latest book, "What's Race Got to Do with It?" is available now.
 
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©Creators Syndicate
America is suffering
America is suffering unlawful deception from the Alinsky group.
Group u$urp$ power on January 20th—the constitution violated.
The United States Supreme Court alone can relieve this outrage.

example: Bogus Selective Service System FOIA Registration?
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2008/11/exclusive_d id_n.html

Cornelius
You are correct. I hope you did not infer that I was agreeing with the calumny that the Liberals continue to rely on to obsfucate the truth, as is their want.

Someone on another thread put it the best I have ever heard, and I'm even thinking about having it made into a bumper sticker (for here in Maine where the Liberals run wild, every third car, it seems, has a "Bush lied; thousands died" bumper sticker) -

He said, "You weren't lied to; you didn't listen"

Reassess Iraq War
If nothing else, the Iraq war can be viewed as an issue of positive unintended consequences. Al-Qaida chose to tie itself down and expend its resources there, thusly limiting where it could be otherwise, i.e., the USA. We were going to fight them somewhere and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. 3 cheers for our military and its great victory!

Cont. Ashame from Illinois
I apologized for the antiAmerican comments made by Illinois' Senators Durbin and Obama. I support our troops and thank them for ther sacrifice. Their comments (Durbi's and Obama's) against our military were despicable! But they do not represent the feelings of most Illinoisians.

Ashamed from Illinois
The war in Iraq was justified. Congress and the President (Bush) signed on it, and they got my full support. The victory is; we have not had a single attack on USA soil for over 7 years. My kids go to school withou fear. We go shopping without fear. I go to work without fear. Thank you President Bush! I almost need to strip naked when I travel by air but the love for of my family is worth it. Keep on checking e-mails and phone conversations and bring those terrorist attacks to zero. I like my freedom. Bring the war to them and eliminate them. God Bless America, the Home of the Free.

Bush never lied
The first comment in this string claims that:
"The argument by Liberals has never been about the collateral damage of the ground assault as opposed to the air campaign; it has always been predicated on the assertion that Bush lied."

But this is a lie in itself. Bush never lied about anything. I challenge the writer or anyone to name the lie. Truth is, liberals have based their slander of the Commander in Chief on a sophomoric deception.

Lon
Your rationalizations concerning the disparate approach of Liberals to the two miltary adventures is an ex-post facto extrapolation.

The argument by Liberals has never been about the collateral damage of the ground assault as opposed to the air campaign; it has always been predicated on the assertion that Bush lied.

You, sir, are a liar.


HUSSIN WOULD BE IN POWER
WE WOULD BE LICKING OUR WOMBS AND HUSSIN WOULD BE IN POWER, IF OBAMA HAD HIS WAY. WE HAVE NOT THE TRAING FOR THE MISSION HE IS PLANNING. NOR THE GOVERNMENT BACKING, OBAMA WILL HAVE THE UNITED STAES HATED IN EUROPE IN HIS HIS HUNDRED
DAYS.

Lon
It was always been difficult to fathom the mind of Saddam Hussein. However, the idea that he would make a gift of much of his air force to a country that regarded him as the enemy stretches the bounds of credibility. Remember he actually believed that he was going to win the war. If by some fantastic piece of luck he had he managed this, he wouldn't have much of an air force and his rivals in Iran would.

One more name and too many to list
Can't forget the big kahuna John Liar Kerry.

The evil politicians
As far as I am concerned the democrats did everything they could to undermine our efforts to succeed. How do you send our sons and daughters on a mission and then tell the world the war is lost. Would you send a boxer into a ring and tell him he has no chance of winning? They emboldened our enemies time and time again with their slanderous statements. They are the ones who should be tried for war crimes. Reid, Durbin, Kennedy, Murtha.

sjpatejak
You are right that Hussein never got back those planes. But it is not clear that is relevant to whether he would give away WMD's in a similar manner. Is there any reason to think that he thought the Iranians would give them back?

Ken
I did get my information about Serbia from news sources that report the facts about the region. I am not clear why you think that is suspect. Did Fox news claim that we invaded Serbia and arrested Milosevic? This seems unlikely, even they would have trouble passing off a fictional invasion.

I am also not clear on why you think there were no mass graves when there were mass graves in places like Srebinica.

Of course, as I noted in my last post on the subject and you ignored, the reason for the bombing campaign in Serbia was to avert a humanitarian crisis in Kosovo that was developing at the time. There was no similar reported crisis in Iraq at the time of our invasion. Many liberals, I would have thought all human beings but I am more comfortable attributing this at least to liberals since you don't seem to share this view, consider averting a looming humanitarian crisis to be a relevant issue.

So there is good reason why liberals would favor intervention in Serbia and not Iraq. And there are reasons why they would favor the more limited approach taken in Serbia which lead to the removal of Milosevic without destabilizing Serbia itself, over the removal of Hussein in a way that has led to 100's of thousands of deaths and the dislocation of millions.

Is it really possible that you don't see the distinctions here?

Ranger29 (?)
"Subject: No Ken...we only intervened in Bosnia
after it became clear Al Queda was about to join the KLA...

those are the facts."

You have a link to that?

Is that why Clinton allowed the CIA to turn a blindeye as arms shipments flowed to the Bosnian Muslims violating UN arms embargoes?

What we now have in Bosnia is a permanent Jihadist recruiting and staging ground in the Balkans thanks to your beloved political "genius".

Lmore you need to reread the
authorization for the use of force. It uses the whereas statements to show why the threat and violations already existed. The determination on the Presidents part was on when to end political efforts and start the physical. It is all so straight forward and yes simple.

The thing about simple truths is that once one comes to realize that they are truths there is no ambiguity in which one can hide ones failure to act to the truth.

I must say to the uninformed you and others like you have done a wonderful job of trying to find amibiguity to hide your lack of action or support for the truth.

Mac Moore Kudos to you
You're absolutely right Gates did not just come along and not only was he selected by Bush, Bush spent several months prior to the o6 election searching out his military leaders. He had to replace the top ones in Iraq. If you may recall the instalment of General Petreas suppose he just wondered in also and then there was another starts with a D aint going to look up his name but you are absolutely correct on the egage learn adapt. I doubt your reason will sink in. Those that oppose dont even have the intelectual integrity to read my post above and find out for themselves the truth of the joint approval and constitutionaly supported authorization of force. Whats ya gonna do?

Iran, China and Russia, the Big 3!
It doesn't make sense that some people believe that an attack didn't happen when anti-American Islamic radical terrorists were on board the planes and there were passenger voicemails recorded that the planes were high jacked. How can we forget about the lives that were savagely murdered by the terrorists? The question that hasn't been answered to my knowledge is how did unidentified planes fly off course without notice in our air waves, but I'll leave that for the geniuses. The fact that President Bush believed that Saddam had WMD's hidden and that he was a monster who committed inhumane acts against his own people was true. Even if part of the reason was for oil, it's obvious that whoever controls the oil can devastate the world and America. That's why we need to drill now. Obviously, it's possible that Iran got their hands on the WMD's because according to the news, a Iranian ship was high jacked by Somalian pirates and after further investigation, it's alleged that the ship was stocked with WMD's headed for an Israelian port with the intent of devastatinging an entire city and kill thousands of people. Another news article reports that Iran is planning to build a nuclear plant in 2009. The terrorists are on video threatening Israel and Americans relentlessly with death and devastation, so why would anyone think that we don't have to fight back against radical terrorists who on video boasting of beheading our citizens and soldiers whose fear on their faces I shall never forget. These monsters boast of severely torturing our soldiers and killing as their sick form of entertainment. They don't even respect their own people and brainwash them to blow up themselves. Why would any elected official want to downsize our U.S. military and defense budget when we are threatened by a radical Muslim takeover of our country or don't we believe that their threat of a nuclear devastation is real?

Ideology ???
I plead guilty.

This from Wikipedia

An ideology is a set of beliefs, aims and ideas, especially in politics. An ideology can be thought of as a comprehensive vision, as a way of looking at things (compare Weltanschauung), as in common sense (see Ideology in everyday society below) and several philosophical tendencies (see Political ideologies), or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of a society to all members of this society. The main purpose behind an ideology is to offer change in society through a normative thought process. Ideologies are systems of abstract thought (as opposed to mere ideation) applied to public matters and thus make this concept central to politics. Implicitly every political tendency entails an ideology whether or not it is propounded as an explicit system of thought.

Lets compare the above to what we observe in Liberalism.

With Liberalism there correctness is relative. There is no fix point of reference to gage ones viewpoint of the world. There is no accountability. They have a sliding scale of what is right and what is wrong. Something can be right today and wrong tomorrow.

So Bill Clinton can remove the duly elected President of Yogoslavia and thats ok. While George Bush can remove a much worst President with much greater cause and hes a war criminal.

Franklin Roosevelt can detain 200,000 German soilders on U.S. soil with no charges, no lawyers, and thats ok. But George Bush is violating human rights if he removes enemy combatants from caves and gives them a clean cell, 3 meals a day, and a Koran to allow worship.

Hey Liberals! Ever wonder why people outside your social circle don't take you seriously?

Demagogue In Cheif Takes The Helm
Ken offers, "I can safely say were it not for Liberals, there would be a lot less loss of life in Iraq."

Absolutely.

Democrats follow demagogues, people that will promise any populist nonsense to get elected. They have no substance and they are speaking to sheep, anyway. For them, its all about votes at any cost.

So, they get elected by sheep. However, note how quickly the great demagogue Stepford Democrat, Obama, has already begun jockying to rationalize how he will stay the Bush course on the war on terror: "Torture", Gitmo, Surveilance and Iraq will continue as before.

Soon, sheep, like Robert, will be pointing out how wise Obama is in his keeping of the Bush policies. Of course, there will be a convenient nuance difference to save face ---- you know, kind of like lipstick on their pig.

Robert Drinks Demagogue Kool Ade
Robert offers to Ken, "you are a slave to ideology"

Being a slave to ideology is better than a slave to a demagogue, as you.

The demagogue, Obama, the Stepford Democrat, promised to yank us out of Iraq and Gitmo, end "aggessive interrogations", stop surveillance on citizens, negotiate with terrorists (like a cowboy) one on one, without preconditions, re-negotiate NAFTA, raise taxes on only 5% and give it to 95%, all for votes. It worked. You voted for him.

Now, he will do as Bush has started. Democrats have always been a sucker for demagogues.

Well, at least you have that really neat stain of your lips.

Bush Has Chartered Iraq As A Win
Robert offers, "but Bush, the right wing and Limbaugh were all chanting "stay the course"

And Bush did stay the course, thankfully. We have nearly competed the mission as planned. And, Obama, as Pelosi and Reid, before him, has fallen in line.

Mac Moore from WA
Many experts are saying Obama will change his point of view once he has access to the same intelligence.

This is why Obama, Dick Durban, and John Murtha should not have contributed to the violence by calling U.S. troops murderers, rapists, torturers without any facts to support that claim.

We do know Liberals complained there were not enough troops to secure Iraq after the invasion. Even McCain brought up that point.

What is not brought up is that Bill Clinton and Al Gore reduced the size of the military by 350,000 troops. Those 350,000 troops were no longer available to secure Iraq.

As Donald Rumsfield pointed out. "We fight with the military we have not the military we want."

I can safely say were it not for Liberals, there would be a lot less loss of life in Iraq.

Robert - A Public School Prodigy
Robert offers, "Gates was only injected into the equation after the horrific 06 elections when the American people told Bush "we are the decider...change course or we want out".

Try to stay focused on facts. No where on any ballot was there a punch for "we are the decider... change course or we want out"

Unlike your earlier post that Gates "came along", Bush recruited him and put him to work.

You can not possibly have been born that dumb. It has got to have been learned. Did you go to Public School? It shows.

Robert Still Lost In Fact
Robert, "Yello Cake it is routine nuclear
waste that had no other value other toward a real nuclear device..."

Still wrong. If it is routine, try getting some. It is quarantined. No amount of babbling will change the facts.

Democrats - Enjoy The Kool Aid!!
Obama, like Pelosi and Reid, before him, trying to buy votes with demogogue agilities promised he would get us out of Iraq right away, empty Gitmo, stop surveilance and end torture. Of course, as with Pelosi and Reid, before him, those promises were Kool Aid for votes.

Oooops! It seems Obama is beginning to embrace the Bush way of dealing with bad guys.

As it turns out demogogues will say whatever it takes to get in office -- that's why they are called demogogues. So, here we are with the largest bunch of demogogues about to be placed in office in the history of the nation -- led by President Obama, the Stepford Democrat. What fun!

Well, look at this way, the Kool Aid tasted good, they got your vote and now you have that realy neat stain on your lips.

Robert Makes Biden Sound Smart!
Robert offers, "Melinda the yellow cake
was no more dangerous then routine waste...sorry"

Absolutely silly non-sense.

If you think it is routine waste, try getting some for your personal use.

Robert Lost In Facts
Robert offers, "The failure in Iraq was that until Gates came along Bush was clueless how to marry military and political power."

No, dummy.

War is like that: engage, learn, adapt and overcome.

Gates did not "come along". He was injected into the war by Bush. In spite of your screeching, mindlessly from the beginning, that all is lost and no good can come of this, Bush overcame. We will leave, just as planned, winners and safe in our homes. It is a good thing Bush ignored the dummies and stayed the course.

Wrat Wrangler From Ny

You are not the only one that see similarities with both Clinton and Carter Administrations.

Unfortunately I have not yet seen the best of the Clinton and Carter Administrations just the worse.

Obama like Jimmy Carter, appears to want to be thoughtful, but wants to micro-manage every decision. A big big problem for Jimmy Carter.
Like Jimmy Carter we see long delays in making decision and taking a stand on issues. No core values.

Like Bill Clinton we see manipulation of the media. Test leaks that aren't really leaks. Finger pointing, appointment of people with bad reputaions and backgrounds. Lots of mis-information.

Reading some of the posts about Yogoslavia and Iraq you can clearly see many liberals are the victims of mis-information.

Oops!
My last post was in reply to LMoore.

-Ray

Did you READ my post?!!!!!!!!!
I did NOT support any name calling by Al-Quaeda. I am not happy with the outcome of the election and I fear that this guy is all the worst parts of Clinton and Carter with no real backbone. I HOPE I'm wrong and will be glad if I am but I doubt it.

If you READ the post I called Zawahiri a "desert vermin" for what he said. I don't have to LIKE the C in C (or soon to be) to take umbrage on attacks like this. What this DOES show is that we are in for some "interesting times" as the Chinese curse goes. I hope not, but I am not delusional to think that this small time pol is ever going to rank with JFK or Reagan.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Lon From PA
Lon,

I can tell you get your information from MSNBC CNN or NY Times.

Miloševic was elected the 3rd President of the Republic of Yogoslavia. We did in fact remove him by placing him under arrest. Same as Saddam.

Both were accused of "Crimes Against Humanity".
However, Milosevic never had or used WMD. Never threaten or invaded any of his neighbors, Never refused to obey U.N. resolutions, never had mass graves, never had rape rooms, never funded terrorism around the globe. All of which Saddam was guilty of.

Since Milosevic's own people would not try and convict him, he was sent to an international court where he died after many years of captivity awaiting trial with no verdict.

Yogoslavia consisted of several regions that included Kosovo, Bosnia, Serbia, and Croatia.

Yogoslavia was in the middle of an internal civil war in which we interferred and divided up the country into smaller states.

The same was suggested for Iraq but our strong alley Turkey opposes giving Kurds of Iraq their own contry thus we are trying to preserve the country as one.

So as I said, any Liberal who supported removing Milosevic will surely support removing Saddam just to maintain intellectual integrity.

Yellow Cake!
Why has the record not been corrected? A few months ago the yellow cake was taken from Iraq to Canada, it had been kept quiet from 2003 when discovered for security reasons.

Why is the Iraq and WMD record not being corrected? President Bush was right all along and no one wants to give him credit.

Why does no one speak on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens who were being tortured and ended up in mass graves, tortured -- even torturing kids and having their parents eat them. The atrocities were so violent, yet liberals in this country dismiss the war in Iraq. "We all know it was a mistake."

We do not! To have freedom in the middle east is vital to the security of the world!

Please address this!

Melinda

oba is a lying politician not a caring
leader. As he proved during his lying and misleading campaign, obaliar is the worst kind of politician, an opportunists and evil! he is not interested in any truth, just whatever he can feed his sheep followers until he has enough power to not need them at all. Whatever spin is politically convenient for him about Iraq he will use and his idiot followers will go right along !

Look for obaliar to expand on his evesdropping to include those who disagree with him...while his sheep follow to the slaughter house and even participate in the slaughter themselves.

Now obaliar stands by as his buddies in congress are deteriorating the economy so that it can only go up when obaliar and his terrorist gangsters are in power..another set up !

$$$$ and power, $$$ and power !

You really had to hate America to vote for such a poor character, such bad policies..you had to hate America and you had to love yourself ! TRAITORS !

Lon
The Iranians didn't give those planes back. http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSCOL5441572007 0805

L Moore
Forgot the context already have you?

Scroll up.

Lmoore
I don't care about your other computer.

Your twisting of the facts so that it makes your side look good is despicable.

It is obvious from reading your posts that you are an ideologue and cannot be reasoned with.

Did people die in this War? Yes.
Were there mistakes in the intelligence? Yes.
Were there mistakes in the occupation/assistance in rebuilding? Yes.
Were there benefits from this War? Yes. See the article above.

This war was as legal as taxes and just as inevitable as long as the Baathist regime failed to comply with the UN sanctions and the cease fire agreement.

BTW, Kofi's son profited from the Oil for Food scandal. What did you expect him to say?

And Yes, the UN is a toothless, useless bureacracy that is bloated well beyond any reasonable expectation. Look at their record.

Iran was set on this course of events, anyway. Look it up. Current events didn't start yesterday.


sjpatejak
While you are right that the idea that Iraq gave Iran WMD's is unsupported nonsense by people who don't like to admit they are wrong even when reality hits them in the face, your argument, while reasonable doesn't quite hold up.

Remember during the first Gulf war the Iraqis actually did give some of their air force over to the Iranians rather than have them destroyed. And all of the things you mention were reasons for them to not do that either.

Julio
The problem with your analogy is that while Germany and Japan were formally allied, al qaeda and Iraq were enemies, and the attempts to link the two have been shown to be nonsense. Your analogy would work better if you said

"Hey, Russia didn't bomb Pearl Harbor! Stop the illegal assault on Russia!"

But, of course, it seems doubtful that anyone would have been stupid enough to respond to the attack at Pearl Harbor by invading Russia. So your analogy probably doesn't work anyway.

Chuck
Huh???????

Hard
"John" is the name that shows up on my other computer.

L Moore
Oh.

But "Bush lied. Thousands died" is what?

A philosophically profound statement?

Hard thought
Here's an analytical mode:

With regard to the UN, Secretary General Annan stated that the use of force without Council endorsement would "not be in conformity with the Charter" and many legal experts now describe the US-UK attack as an act of aggression, violating international law.

With regard to the oil for food program, this was a scandal that involved mostly the same UN that you used as a rationalization previously, it's astonishing to me that you could take administrative corruption as a cause for war. In fact, since you seem to, why didn't you advocate bombing the UN instead?


The authorization for the use of force was in fact an aauthorization to let the president make that decision, not to go to war. At that time, Bush was telling everybody that he had absolute proof that Iraq had WMD including nuclear weapons. Congress decided to believe that he was telling the truth, since he was fairly new to the presidency and had not yet established a contradictory history.

Repression, genocide, cruelty, yes - it was clearly a drama of "taking out the bad guy", sort of like a video game. But, in fact, it is NOT like "buying a car", as you stated. It is choosing one dictator, one genocide, one form of repression over many others, most of them worse, for less than admirable reasons.

The biggest horror of this war is the rise of Iran, now powerful, aggressive, and building a nuclear bomb, which you seem to think puts us in a better position than before the bombing of Baghdad.


Lmoore
Your post with hypothetical questions that were never any part of the discussion about going to war shows that you cannot look at the situation in an analytical mode.

You make up straw men, attribute remarks to people you dislike that were never made and claim that as your opposition.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

Thomas
Thank you for your civility and absence of name-calling - it's a genuine mark of your thoughtfulness and intelligence.

I also respect the people who serve in our military; because of that, I think they deserve a fair shake, a thoughtful commander-in-chief who values their lives and their limbs, who won't send them into battle without a plan; and who will tell the truth about why they are going.

Most army personnel, when the're not at the front, are husbands, sons, brothers and neighbors. Some are good people, others not so much, just like every human being. But true respect means, for me, not romanticizing them and what they do. War is brutal,ugly, wasteful and not glorious.

Here's a factoid: During the Roman Republic, when Rome was invading, conquering, and stealing the treasures of just about any country they could reach, their wars were always, always, justified in terms of "self-protection", "liberating oppressed peoples" or "seeing that justice was done."

In modern times, how many times have you heard a leader say, "we're invading this country because we don't like them and I can settle an oedipal score with my father", or "We;'re going to wage war against a bad guy because after 9/11 it just feels good, and will make me a hero"?

Or, "we're going to bomb this country back to the stone age because we can"?

Lmoore
I understand your opposition to the War. It wasn't started by a Democrat.

I get it.

Your inability to look at the situation analytically and see what the causes were is inexplicable to me.

Seventeen UN Security Council resolutions promising a resort to violence if not followed. And they were ignored.

The corrupt Oil for Food Program.

The Authorizition for the Use of Force overwhelmingly passed by both houses of Congress.

Genocide against Kurds in the north and the Iraqi marsh dwellers in the south.

Brutal repression of dissent and the popular uprising after the Gulf War first installment.

Support from both sides of the aisle.

And the list goes on and on.

BTW, New Orleans and Michigan are prime examples of liberals in control of all three branches of government.

Hard Thought
"More Americans were killed in Detroit this year than in Iraq. "

Well, maybe we should invade Michigan next and bring them the same kind of peace the Iraqis are now enjoying.


Lmoredung
Oh, how sweet!

"It's a cultural meme that people use..."

Kind of like "Hope" and "Change we can believe in" when you can't offer specifics or price tags. But your Roget's Thesaurus must be getting worn.

Arguing with you is like wrestling with a pig. Both get dirty but the pig enjoys it.

You do have Dr. Dean's talking points down, though.

The War in Iraq was justified, brilliantly executed, and brought positive results as denoted in the article above.

Mistakes were made in the occupation after the War was concluded. Even I agree with that. But it appears the surge has turned that around and it is looking better all the time.

Here is a little "cultural meme" for you: More Americans were killed in Detroit this year than in Iraq.

Rose
Let me get this straight. Having invaded Iran, fought an eight-year war, used poison gas against Iranian soldiers, and bombed Iranian cities, Saddam gave them his WMDS? It would have made far more sense to give them to us. We probably wouldn't have used them against Iraq.

Julio: Who was president in 1941? FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT, the uber-liberal, and this is what he had to say: http://www.radiochemistry.org/history/nuclear_age/06_fdr_i nfamy.shtml
Turn up the volume it's heady stuff.
Germany declared war on the US on Dec. 11. FDR being a gentleman returned the favor. He had recognized the threat of the Nazis early on. However, his political opponents, mostly conservative Republicans wouldn't let him do much about it.

De Ja Vu
"I think the part of the way to think about it is things could be worse. … So part of what we have to measure against is what didn't happen and not just what has happened."

I wonder if Obama will use similar language shortly after he allows Iran to obtain a nuclear capability... or attacks them.

L Moore
In my prev post I meant that I know Iraqis that are so happy with the actions of America during this event and time. Iraq was no paradise before we entered and Im not going to get into why and what intell we had etc etc. We are doing a historic thing in Iraq but only time and opinions will tell if it was the right thing to do.

As for the soldiers, I have NOTHING but deep respect for ALL who have, are and will serve in our military services and looking back I WISH I could have put in some time (ALL of us should like the Isrealis). They vlounteered to serve and must do thier job. This has been the way for thousands of years. Leaders send kids to fight and die. Alas I am too old and broken down.

Good thing today's liberals
Good thing today's liberals weren't around after Pearl Harbor...

Can you hear them now?

"Hey, Germany didn't bomb Pearl Harbor! Stop the illegal assault on Germany!"

Except that
im a literal sense, mantras reveal some bit of truth on which to meditate, they're not just sound bytes.

Chuck
"chanting that mantra over and over. "

Unfortunately, that's exactly what it is. It's not even original, it's a cultural meme that people use when they can't come up with a satisfactory argument.

Hard Thoughts
"You weren't lied to. You didn't listen"

See, now if the Republican Party had either brains or you-know-whats, they would have been chanting that mantra over and over.

Thomas
I hope you're right about Iraq becoming a Democratic shining light to the rest of the middle east, but I hope that also happens to Russia, Venezuela and Korea.

As for all war being full of tragedy; yes, it is, that's why it should not be considered lightly, or undertaken out of romantic ideology and pure naivete.

As for soldiers who say they are doing good work, I also know soldiers who say things that are very different, mostly that the situation they find themselves in nothing like they thought it was going to be or that Americans think it is. But you might also think of it this way: If you were stuck in a sweltering country, not knowing from day to day if you were going to live or become a brain damaged cripple, see your children or your family again, or watching your buddies commit suicide at the highest rate in American military history from post-Iraq depression and mental illness, wouldn't YOU want to think it was wroth SOMETHING, that it wasn't all a waste?

It is what it is, and all the pretty words about democracy won't make it something else.

jerabaub 8:09AM
Yeah, I was being somewhat facetious although not entirely.

I am almost in agreement with your points with the possible exception of our misadventure in Afghanistan. I think that was a mistake as well although not necessarily due to international law or anything along those lines.

My attempt at irony was really directed at the unspoken implication that it was Bush and the Republicans who alone are to blame for all of this. I never agreed, as I say, with much of our misadventures in the Middle East but for fear of feeding the partisan hacks on the Left, whose arguments and motivations I never trust, I tend to keep my reservations to myself.

Persoanlly, I think them a greater danger to our national security than a bunch of, to use the Big Mick's terem, "sand Nazis".

Shrug
" the concepts of freedom and liberty, freedom from tyranny, oppression, and slavery "

Are great, but since when was it our job to go broke, become economically enslaved to China, throw over 4,000 Americans to their deaths, thousands more to the imprisonment of their damaged bodies and minds, re-establish torture as an American ideal, and impose civilian spying on our citizens and put ourselves in worse, catastrophic danger in the name of other people's freedom?

Also, if you look back to 2003, this was never given as the reason to invade Iraq. The reason Bush gave us was that they were about to Nuke us, remember? Remember how we would be fighting Muslims on the streets of Columbus Ohio if we didn't take out their country? The "Freedom" bit became popular when the first justification became obscene.

As for safety, we now have Iraq. Thanks, George.

L Moore & the war
Your rapid fire posting indicates your not in favor of the war. I don't know anyone who favors war but DO know several people from in and around Baghdad and they are ALL thankful we deposed Saddam and for the efforts to help Iraq rebuild.

ALL wars are tragic, wasteful and result in horrible collateral damage that is felt for generations. I supported the invasion and STILL think it will be seen as a positive event in history as Iraq will, hopefully become a benchmark for a free society in that part of the ME.


Lmoredung & Wee Willy Wonka
Go read the 17 resolutions authorizing the use of force by the UN Security Council.

Go read the 26 reasons outlined by Congress authorizing the use of force.

Look up Georges Sada. Look up the attack on the embassies in Jordan. Look up al-Tuwaitha.

Were we right in deposing this despot? Of course. Are we wrong in not deposing other despots? That's like asking why I bought this car instead of that one and it doesn't wash. We do what is possible at the time.

You weren't lied to. You didn't listen.

The "Rush to War" took 12 years and a myriad of deployments to the Middle East, all in plain view. It was the longest telegraphed punch in history.

L Moore
I thought you blessed us your final thought nearly an hour ago.

If you consider the concepts of freedom and liberty, freedom from tyranny, oppression, and slavery, to be arrogant, simplistic and childish; if you consider these concepts are not worthy of blood and treasure; and if you consider those who have given their lives and who have been injured in pursuit of these principles to be other than pearls, then it is obvious upon which side of the pearl and swine equation you fall. I will take time to pray for you, in my own simple, childish arrogant way.

The only trouble I have with invading is
that we spent billions trying to rebuild the place. As far as I'm concerned, it wasn't our place to rebuild. Once Saddam went down, we should have left them there with the warning to not get invoved with world affairs again or we'd be back.

Shrug
Your phrase, "casting pearls before swine" is a perfect window into the arrogant, simplistic, childish American view of history and current events.

Those "swine" had their children killed and maimed, their houses blown apart, their homes taken, and are still getting blown apart every day in Baghdad. Obviously, they don't appreciate the big favor we did them.

Wrat Wrangler
Thank you for your patriotic support of the people who have insulted your president and have promised to destroy him, a threat which you obviously hope will be fulfilled.

Too bad we don't have more solid, pro-American, gun-totin tough guys like yourself.

Polly
So you think we should invade countries because they are corrupt? Are you serious? Let's start with China, which has an incredibly corrupt government; let's go then to Russia, Mexico, and on and on.

You sound like the idea of war truly excites you. Well, obviously you're not alone.

Ultimately it will be up to the Iraqis
Ultimately it will be up to the Iraqis to fulfill (or not) the mission and vision that was the reason for our investment of blood and treasure. We do not control the final outcome, no matter how worthy it is. Only after the Iraqis are standing on their own will we ever know if we have been casting our pearls before swine.

JMO51
With all the countries raking in big bucks in kickbacks and special contracts in the "Oil for Food" program, forming a coalition "like the one for the first Gulf War" would have been highly unlikely.

Now THERE's an example of GREED. Actually, MANY examples of greed. That horrible, corrupt situation would have been enough justification all by itself for ending Saddam's reign.


Yet more from Strategypage.com
--
Townhall columnist Austin Bay and Strategypage's principal perpetrator, Jim Dunnigan, do podcasts occasionally.

Readers on this thread will certainly be interested in this one (12 November):

http://www.strategypage.com/StrategyTalk/recordings/iraq-wa r-is-won.mp3


...in which Dunnigan and Col. Bay "...discuss why the war in Iraq has been won and why the mainstream media has not noticed."


Remember, folks, you *DIDN'T* get this from the cement-heads who run Townhall.com

--

The wittle "messiah" has been dissed!!!
The Squirel in Chief just got dissed severely by the Number 2 at Al-Quaeda. Zawahiri called him America's "house negro" and says he has betrayed his father's muslim faith.

According to this desert vermin Obama "now prays the prayer of the Jew and does the bidding of infidels". WAIT till Rahm Emanuel hears THAT one!!

They didn't even WAIT for inauguration to try and roll this pipsqueak because they KNOW he's the second coming of Jimmy Carter and has the worst traits of Carter and Clinton and has packed his staff with idiot Clinton era retreads.

Buckle up there's going to be some chop!!!!

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Salman Pak!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHY do we NEVER hear about this place in the MSM? Because a debriefed Iraqi intelligence officer stated ON RECORD that his people TRAINED the 9/11 hijackers AND OTHER TEAMS to take over commercial airliners using only small edged weapons and fake bombs.

The site is just southwest of Baghdad and contains the entire fuesealge of a commercial jet, a 737 I believe. I have the KH-11 overflight photo on my hard drive but I can't upload it here. Too bad.

THERE'S you damned connection to Saddam. There were SEVENTEEN U.N. resolutions that he had violated with impunity from the day Billy Jeff went to Washington. ELEVEN intelligence agencies including those of England, Spain, Hungary, Czech Republic and many in the Islamic world were sure that he had WMDs, the capability to recreate the ones he'd used or WAS ACTIVELY SEEKING the capability to do so.

Monday morning quarterbacking has no place here.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Last thought
David Petraeus himself has said that Iraq is a shaky high-wire act that could unravel at any moment, and that the word "victory" can never be used to describe what has happened there.

One good thing about Iraq I guess
It made alot of people very, very rich.

Maybe that was the point.

The war was a tragic waste
Of money, of talent, of global respect for America and worse, of human life. It has left us in even more danger and we will be paying for it in more young lives in the years to come.

Speaking of Bush's anti-terrorist vision, what ever happened to the "Miami Eleven" - remember those hapless, homeless, jobless, illiterate hobos who were going to level Chicago? Are they one of the "dangers" that Elder says we are now protected from?

Brat 52
I just read your post, and as an intellectual representative of the conservative right, I'm not surprised that you lost the election, but dismayed that there are still so many of you at all.

BTW, I love it when conservatives complain about the way "Bush was treated" -- you must have been born after the Clinton years.

Larry Elder's view of the war
Is similar to what one would see if one was looking at Iraq through a soda straw.

Our invasion of Iraq caused problems that we will not solve in generations to come - The billions of dollars that were poured down that well on a monthly, even weekly basis left us in astonishing debt, mostly to the Chinese, and now, when we are facing a debilitating depression, and all that suggests, we are broke and owing.

Iraq was Iran;s most formidible enemy, and the only power that kept it in control. Without Saddam Iran is now unleashed, will have a nuclear weapon before long, and will set it's sights on Israel and the US.

Thousands of people were killed and cruelly mutilated, both here and in Iraq, innocent people were killed, and many more , including Americans, will spend the rest of their lives blind, crippled, brain damaged or paraplegic.

Al Quaeda is still hiding out, and around 35 people a day are still being killed every day in Iraq as there are at least three car bombs detonated every week there. Meanwhile, because we left Afghanistan, things are worse there and it is unlikely we will be able to accomplish anything at this point.



Re-assessing Iraq
Larry Elder understands what's going on,and the Liberal Dems hate him for it.....that said...
There were 48 million people who didn't vote for "Obamessiah", and we need to(every chance we get)remind everyone of "his" campaign promises(there are videos of all of them)...
"hold his feet to the fire"..everyday on every promise....make "his" life miserable...just like they(Liberals) did Bush for the last 5 yrs!!!!

WMD proof
Here is a link to an article by the liberal press that is verifible proof that Iraq was going to produce WMD.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25546334/

It also proves that Valerie Plame and her husband were flat out telling lies. They should be tried for treason.

Who's Side Is Obama On?
Good grief, America! There are WMD'S and Bush was right. Saddam probably moved them into Iran because a Iranian ship worth millions in WMD's was high jacked by Somalian pirates and after several died and a U.S. investigation was made, the news reported that the WMD's were aimed at an Israeli port where it would blow up an entire city and kill thousands, but fortunately, God intervened and messed up their plans. The news also reported that the Iranians are hoping aiming for 2009 to implement their nuclar plant. Wake up, America! You voted into office an inexperienced man who believes that our soldiers were killed, tortured and died for a war that means nothing and are still dying even though Iran's ship with WMD's are in the news and Iran is building a nuclear plant to wipe out Israel and America! The threat against America and Israel is real and the sooner America wakes up to reality - if it's not too late - the safer we will be by supporting our military and our troops who are protecting us from a terrible threat of disaster.

JM051
I heard a journalist who has been in Iraq since 2003 say that the current state of affairs is like going to the doctor, who says "I have good news and bad news - the bad news isyou have cancer - the good news is your acne will clear up".

Huh?
"The majority of voters did, indeed, elect Obama, but I'll remind you that a majority elected Hitler, a majority elected Castro, a majority elected Stalin... so we're pretty certain that those who win aren't always right..."

Neither Castro or Stalin ever ran in a multi party election. Hitler never won any real election. He was made chancellor as part of a coalition. The Nazis never got more than 35% of the vote in a real election.

william, trust me, I don't
"fear" the gay man. But what irritates the He!! out of me is tolerance is not enough. I heard on the radio today that eHarmony will now be FORCED to provide services for the abby normals because of the lawsuit of silk pantied gay nazi who just couldn't seem to stand it. No, the other thousands of online providers of that service just weren't enough. They have to file lawsuit after lawsuit to, pardon the pun, ram their chosen abnormality down our throats.

I have no problems with letting gays do whatever the heck they wish to do, even marry. But I'm sick and tired of being told that because I believe it is wrong, I'm a homophobe. Whatever the He!! that is! Fear of mankind?

And your blue car analogy shows the true depth of your analytical thinking, which is to say you have none. It's part and parcel why the best days of these United States are behind us. And no, that's no San Fran come-on.

You sickos want to take a system that his given you more freedoms than any other type of system in the world, and crap all over it and run it into the ground. Judeo-Christian principles, the foundation of our nations laws, have created the best and freest society ever known to mankind, but because your type wants to bugger your buddies and do all the drugs you want, and without any responsibility I might add, your willing to throw away all those freedoms. Disgusting. Truly disgusting!

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

War in Iraq
Inspite of how easy it is in hindsight to criticise the Iraq war, I think there are many questions historians will ask?

Was the war a mistake from the get go?

Was removing Saddam Desirable, but did the Bush administration rush to war when a little patience would have enabled a real coalition to be created like the one for the first Gulf War?

Also was it wrong to divert resources away from the search for Bin Laden. Should the administration have finish in Afganistan while it held a holding action on Saddam?

Did the bad management of the peace in Iraq turn an victory into a quagmire? and was it arrogant to assume that it would be easy to occupy a country?

These are the questions and frankly too many on the right were reluctant to address these issues for fear of appearing unsupportive of the Bush Administration.

Bad Idea, Badly Started, or Badly Executed.


Blue Car?
William from CA - That has got to be one of the most ignorant things I have seen posted, yet. Your strain of idiocy, sir, bears no relation whatsoever to logic!

Oh -- and FROG, don't fear...
Don't fear the gay man FROG. I bet you could beat some of them up.

Bet you already have. You GO boy!

Blue car is why FROG
In October of 2001 I bought a blue car -- and we have not been attacked since.

So, my logic holds up just as well as yours.

Except we voters recognize that strain of idiocy -- which is why Republicans are now out on the lawn of the White House looking in.

Obama has nothing to fear from the left
Obama can backtrack on his campaign promises all he wants without fear of any backlash from the Dems. They are much too in love with power to let principle stand in the way. The reality is they don't have any principles they're willing to stand on anyway. So it will only be natural for them and the MSM to rally around Obama every time he makes a flip flop on prior promises.

william, take your equation, ...
immoral=unjust, and tell it to your radical gay friends who just cant't seem to accept the will of the people. A higher percentage voted against gay marriage than voted for Obama. Put that purple-tipped cigar between your lips and smoke it!

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

william is just another in ...
a long line of liberals that loves to cherry pick facts and hope that no one notices the others they cast aside.

We can play the "what if" game all day long, william, and you may THINK you know what would have happened, but it's all conjecture. However, the FACT REMAINS, we have not been attacked on our soil since 9/11 and no game-playing by you and other ostriches will change that fact.

We'll see how your messiah stacks up when it comes to protecting the citizens of these United States. Ultimately, THAT is his main job, not providing handouts and spreading my hard earned dollars to low life, lazy bums.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

reevaluations
Reevaluations should be done based on the actual evidence, not on ones fantasies. Hussein was less of a threat than even most opponents of the war thought going in. He was an enemy of al qaeda as opponents of the war thought going in.

It is true that Libya probably would not have given up their WMD's, such as they were, had we not invaded Iraq. But the reason is not that Libya wouldn't have agreed, they had been looking for such a deal since late in the Clinton administration, but because it is hard to imagine the neo-cons agreeing to deal with the guy who had the plane shot down over Lockerbie, if they were not desperate for something to claim as a victory from the disaster in Iraq. (Removing Libya from the list of terrorist nations was worth billions to them and Ghaddafi seems to think it will enable him to pass Libya on to his son when he dies. And not only does he get to become a hereditary tyranny he gets to have an American president praise him for it).

Iraq is going to be a country that has closer ties to Iran than to the US. It still has all of the tricky issues that led to civil strife after our invasion left to deal with. It does have less dying than a couple of years ago, although there has been a recent uptick.

And this strengthening of Iran's position in the middle east has cost us a trillion dollars and over 4,000 soldiers. The reevaluations do not really look much better than the original evaluations.

Immoral = unjust
We were told we were invading Iraq because Saddam was about to use WMD's against us. At best, exactly WRONG. At worst -- a LIE.

When that was exposed for what it was -- we then were told it was to "Liberate" the oppressed people of Iraq for "humanitarian" reasons. At best, more WRONG leadership, dragging us quite randomly into the role of world policeman in Iraq while areas such as Darfur and Somalia festered with far truer tragedies born of inhumanity.

Finally, we were told "Well, we can't leave now that we've screwed it up." More WRONG leadership. Geeez, is it any wonder we REPUDIATED all the Bush administration stood for in both 2006 and 2008? Our only mistake was that we didn't change in 2004. But we learned. Oh yeah -- we learned.

Alan Keyes injury case against Obama
Alan Keyes has filed in Ca Supreme Court proving injury as a Presidential Candidate from Obama failing to prove he is a natural born citizen of US...is Petitioning a Stay of California's electorial votes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9qQexv9UXc

Ken
We didn't remove Milosevic from power. We did chase him from Kosovo to prevent an imminent humanitarian catastrophe. No parallel case was available in the case of Iraq when we invaded. The better parallel would be out chasing Hussein out of Kuwiat which was justified. Milosevic was removed from power by the Serbians because he was costing them too much by remaining in power.

Remember , Julio...
"The majority of voters did, indeed, elect Obama, but I'll remind you that a majority elected Hitler, a majority elected Castro, a majority elected Stalin... so we're pretty certain that those who win aren't always right..."

And a majority elected Bush in 2000. Oh wait...

And william in Ca
Knows for a fact that the invasion of Iraq held off another attack and he knows for a fact that Iraq didn't have WMD's

(we'll ignore all of the Democrats statements attesting to Iraq's WMD's before the Bush administration took office.. that helps the argument)

The majority of voters did, indeed, elect Obama, but I'll remind you that a majority elected Hitler, a majority elected Castro, a majority elected Stalin... so we're pretty certain that those who win aren't always right.

"Free" isn't what you are given the policies that Obama wants to implement. If government controls your health care, you're not free. If government takes what you earn to give it to someone else, that's not freedom, that's tyranny. Stomping on the second amendment is not providing more freedom to people, it's taking it away.

It seems more like the voters at this election were star struck. I really like how informed they were as well.. take a look at the "howobamagotelected.com" web site and though it's really sad, it tells volumes about the intellect of the Obama voter. This is the result of our failed education system. I don't know how anyone call call a Republican "dumb" after viewing those videos. Half don't even know who controlled Congress, much less could tell you what the Constitution says or means. That's the kind of voter Democrats really want.

You have an interesting view of what "freedom" is. Apparently 'freedom' is now meaning "Make me your slave but feed me and give me healthcare"

Thanks for the memories, FROG!
you didn't waste your time when you dug up all these old quotes that the dems would just as soon forget.

thanks for reminding us who lacked the will and resolve to see a very difficult war through to its successful conclusion.

these "leaders" are not worthy to lead a parade, let alone a nation.

Allies?
I've always thought about the fact that eliminating Saddam removed a festering problem in Iraq who did whatever he could to undermine us after the initial war that kicked him out of Kuwait. But I never go so far as to claim that Iraq will be a "reliable" ally in the "war on terror". Assuming we actually know what that means. We can only see. For the time being, we will - assuming we are finally out per the forces agreement in 2011 - have pursued Iraq for 9 years. On the one hand, we can expect only that it will have the same views as the rest of its neighbors concerning Israel and Palestine, just as we must expect it to be closer in many ways to the Shia's in Iran, than to us. On the other hand, it seems likely that the country will join most of the other Arab countries in eliminating those who threaten their governments, which always seems to come back to those that we call "terrorists". It all started, after all, with the determination of Islamic Fundamentalists to change the governments in places like Algeria, Egypt, Sudan, and so forth. The key, I suspect, is deciding just what happens in Iran and Syria. We'll be gone, but those neighbors will remain - and neither can be called allies.

CANCEL THAT CREDIT DUE
It is a complete crok that invading Iraq staved off another terrorist attack on the U.S. – or that Iraq had WMD’s -- or had anything to do with 9/11 in the first place. And once provided four years (mid-term elections) and six years (Presidential elections) worth of irrefutable hindsight the American people and our new leadership realized it well enough to kick the architects of that immoral invasion and occupation to the curb.

You live in a dream world Mr. Elder. Your kind tried to make it our nightmare. We REJECTED it on November 4th.

Free at last, free at last, THANK GOD ALMIGHTY we are free at last!

Why worry about Iraq
When the messiah formally takes office and "FREES" the gitmo gang and brings them to our soil for a "trial" I hope they all get released and run amok and kill hundreds of Americans. Those dead americans will be the martyrs for the true America. I can only hope they kill the most in Washington DC.

Roy in minnesotastan
While I know not everyone in Minnesota voted for the fool Franken, the mere fact that an amount exceeding 40% did explains a lot about roy in wherever refuses to accept reality.

Credit is due
I was against the war in Iraq. But let's give credit where it's due. Elder is correct on many counts and I think it's pretty evident that the dems would have surrendered the country to the bad guys. As for Obama and his mantra of change. What a joke. These next years will be a total waste of time. He will give a little to the right and give a little to the left and the result will be nothing. All in an effort to be re-elected in 2012 which is the goal of any first term president.

Bad Moon Rising
In the song from the past "I see a Bad Moon Rising, I see trouble on the way" ...

We all have seen in the past months during the mortgage meltdown and the Obama campaign, how well the Democrats (Obama, Dodd, Frank, Bidon, Clinton), have well maybe not called "Lies", but as the old Indian said about the White Fathers in Washington, "Speak with Forked Tongue". The Democrats so eloquently cover up all of their rhetoric on the Iraq War, the Demonization of George W. Bush, Obama being ready for Presidency, their involvement in the Fannie Mae and Wall Street meltdown.

But Democrats will be the first, NO the second behind NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, etc., to claim how much the Messiah Obama has done in resolving the tremendous problems that have been viewed as being so wrong and bad for Americans.

If they had remained as silent about such issues over the past months as they did about their earlier statements as to the great health Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, then Wall Street and the market would have worked out these problems within itself.

What most seem to forget is that no matter how much there is being said about how much the people have lost wealth and money in the market over the past months, in the market you can NEVER . . . NEVER have a loser without having a WINNER. Wonder who the winners might be? Maybe Warren Buffet, short sellers, wall street investment mogels, foreign investors, probably some Senators and Congressmen that have some investments?

Just as Al Gore claimed credit for the Internet (after the fact), I feel certain Obama and the Democrats will claim credit for the successes as a result of the success of the Bush administration policies that were implemented during the tough times.

Dumbocrats quotes #4
it appears that somehow the posts got out of order. Oh well, you get the drift. Well, if you have a brain you do, which excludes most liberals. So, in essence, I've wasted my time.

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." - Sen. John F Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9,2002

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Seeing through a glass darkly
If the "brilliant" illuminati who write history and policy would only get the huge logs out of their eyes, they would be better qualified to remove the specks from the eyes of the actual leaders who make history happen. "Nuff said.

Dumbocrats quotes #2
"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." - Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

Dumbocrats quotes #3
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years .. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" - Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members.. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction .. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real" - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

Once again, for the idiot libs ...
among us, what follows is a list of quotes from the holy of holy dumbocrats and their take on Iraq and Sodamn Insane:

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." - President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." - Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten time since 1983." - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb 18,1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the US Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." - Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI), Tom Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry (D - MA), and others Oct. 9,1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." >- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

Vietnamization
--
In foreign adventures, American governments have a longstanding record of involvement in the support of failed foreign states. With the exception of Japan and West Germany (former enemies), previous U.S. administrations have pretty much screwed the pooch in the "nation-building" line of work.

Consider Central America and the Caribbean (the sites of all those "banana wars" in the first three decades of the 20th Century). The Philippines haven't been doing so hot, either.

But our most spectacular example of intervention, withdrawal, and disaster continues to be Vietnam, where Democrat-led escalation of America's military commitment followed by Democrat-led refusal to so much as provide ammunition to the ARVN in 1975 led to the success of an armored offensive undertaken by the Chinese- and Russian-supported North Vietnamese military.

A wholly conventional "blitzkrieg" style mechanized assault that rolled the ill-equipped, orphaned, empty-locker'd South Vietnamese armed forces like the 101st Airborne Division hitting a Cub Scout pack.

Given a Syria in collusion with the mullahcracy ruling Iran, the young government of Iraq - left unsupported by today's conspiracy of Democrat Party scumbuckets running the U.S. government over at least the next two years - could be left to a similar fate.

Democracy is *NOT* a robust state of affairs in places that do not have the hard-evolved Western "culture of trust" we know here in these United States.

(( Remember, it took centuries - and the philosophical Enlightenment - for *us* to arrive at John Locke and Adam Smith. ))

Iraq is - at best - an impossibility. Sunni Kurds, Shia and Sunni Arabs, Moslems converting to Christianity....

Gawd, it sounds like New Jersey.

If the Democrats are allowed to "do a South Vietnam" on Iraq, it *will* go under.

Bear this in mind.

--

Reliable Ally?
"Victory, he said, will be achieved when the country can defend itself against its enemies, foreign and domestic, and has established a democratic government in the region that will serve as a reliable ally in the War on Terror."

Somehow there is room for skepticism that Iraq will be a reliable ally after we have vacated the country. Do you think they will allow the USA to recoup part of its investment?


Time to reassess our entire culture!

The War in Iraq is almost won, and we can only hope that the Leftie Loser who will occupy the White House next year won't abandon our friends and let them fall into the hands of terrorists.

Meanwhile, back at home, the freak who calls herself the "Pregnant Man," when all she is really is a Bearded Lady, is parading her carnival side show all over the MSM while the conservatives sit on their hands and try to look tolerant.

The Leftie Losers have never learned that appeasment never works in regards to terrorists, but the limp wristed conservatives need to wake up and realize that appeasement will never work in regards to the radical Left.

We are reaping what we have sewn, and if you think the freak show is over, you are sorely mistaken.

I have written a blog on the Bearded Lady side show called "Sometimes You Feel Like A Nut." Drop by and rant!

Comments
Larry Elder, you're right on target as usual.

Chuck
You are being facetious, no doubt.

Democrats in both houses of congress voted against the Gulf War.

Democrats can be just as capable of error as Republicans...if that's any consolation.

On Kosovo, I think Albright greatly despised Milosevic, and duped Clinton into the aerial bombardment of Serbia.

Clinton's recollection of the atrocities committed against our troops in Mogadishu probably compelled him to reject introduction of American ground forces on Kosovo, which, from what I understand, the Perfumed General Wesley Clarke had advocated(for ground troops).


We were already in Iraq before '03
Doesn't anyone remember the "no fly zones," and how our pilots were continually getting lit up by Iraqi antiaircraft radar, with the occasional potshot thrown in? How long were we supposed to keep up that farce?

I have no doubt that Saddam saw himself as a latter-day Nebuchadnezzar, and that he would have eventually made another grab at Kuwait and beyond. If you thought $4/gallon for gas a few months ago was bad...

Campaigning is over
Obama's no fool. His campaigning proved that. Why would Obama undo what has kept this country safe from attacks since 9/11. He wouldn't. There's no better example to follow then the one President Bush has created to keep this country safe. Obama is well aware that the terrorist are waiting to see if they can find any weakness in his administration. Why would Obama weaken this country just to please the anti war protesters and the critics of the war in Iraq. He wouldn't. What Obama campaigned on and how he conducts himself as President are two different things. When Obama was campaigning his job was to win the election, not protect the American people. Now that Obama has won the election, his job is now to protect the American people. Obama can walk around with Bill Clinton all he wants. Bill Clinton dropped the ball. President Bush didn't.

jerabaub
What a shame the Democrats in Congress at the time didn't see things the way you and I do, huh?

This whole thing could have been avoided.

judgment has already been rendered
I was opposed to the Kosovo war, just like I oppose the Iraq war.

I was in favor of the Gulf war of 1990-91.

I also was in favor of Afghanistan.

Elder and others are beating a dead horse.

American people have already rendered a judgment on Iraq.

Bush's legacy is intertwined with Iraq. And it is not positive, given the cost.

Americans don't think it was worth the price in lives and money.

Many of the terrorists now gravitating to Afghanistan(as well as to mideast nations)obtained their expertise in roadside bombing from their experience in Iraq.

For those arguing we have a moral obligation to remove brutal despots from this world, just how many American military lives are you willing to sacrifice to remove the dozens of despots who today can be found in the mideast, Africa, Asia and Latin America?

Just how many Americans must die to satiate your morally pristine principles?

The primary consideration in deciding to deploy our armed forces is whether all other options have been exhausted, and equally important, whether it is essential to our national security.

Larry Elder {no "s"} Time to Reassess...
This is the best assessment of the Iraqi war and it's consequences I've read. You have laid out the facts for all to see and comprehend...doesn't get any better than this!!

I predict that Obama will never holdover Bill Gates as Sec, Of Defense; Obama comes from a completely different perspective about terrorism demonstrated by his current "old Clinton" military advisors; they'll seek to discuss rather than acting as did Bush! American defense is in for a completely new look and challenges re: terrorism. Watch out!! It was no accident that America has not sustained another 9/11, but don't count on that being the case for too long!! Even Obama's expert on foreign relations, Joe Biden, knows that.

Ranger29
There's no way you're going to stand there and tell me with a straight face that, if it had been a Democrat president prosecuting the war in Iraq, the front page of the New York Times wouldn't STILL be telling us about the 17 UN Resolution violations.

Don't believe me? Watch the news slants on the war as Obama fails to get us out in the next four years.

Thank you Larry Elder for an excellent
reminder of the facts.

Those (Congress and the President) who were briefed on the situation by our intellegence organizations voted in favor of the war. Ordinary citizens, who read the newspapers, decided the the war was dumb and (would have) voted NO.

If the ordinary citizen or state senator without the benefit of information developed by the intelligence organizations gets it right why do we need the intelligence organizations?

tomarico From CA
You are correct Saddam was not complying with U.N. Resolutions and by all indications, had no intention to do so.

You would think Liberals being big supporters of the U.N. would insist that Saddam comply.


Unfortunately we do know there was a lot of unnecessary deaths.

Al Quadda was using the statements made by Congressman John Murtha, Senator Dick Durban and Barack Obama as recruitment tools for more terrorist & suicide bombers.

Their unfounded and irresponsible statements were posted on terrorist websites which resulted in many more deaths of U.S. Troops and Iraqis citizens.

Liberals constantly screaming about torture without any definition or evidence of torture also rallied the arab world against the U.S.

After 8 years of George Bush, not one terrorist has come forth and stated he was tortured. We have not seen any broken bones, no scars, no permanent damage no accusations by any terrorist.

I have seen video of Saddam cutting people's hands off, throwing people off of roofs, and reports about rape rooms, trash compactors, and various other ways Saddam oppressed his people.

Liberals defend Saddams right to remain in power.

One more thing
It is absolutely a surrender to say regardless of why we went we are there now etc. etc. etc.

If you believe we went in there(I do, note previous post) for the correct reasons then stand by them! I believe it has been the poor or at times total lack of effort by the Bush administration and those with public voice to keep the record straight that has allowed for such a dismal record of public support for this very vital part of the war on terror.

If as some belive we were in there for the wrong reasons and Saddam the evil internationaly agressive tyrant threat to the most energy strategic region in the world was make beleive then out we should have been just as quickly as logistically possible.

Roy in Oslo
if Elder's rationale aint good enough how bout public law 107-243 oct 16 2002 that there would be not George Bush's or Larry Elders rationale But the Official,Lawful Constitutionaly correct authority of the United States of America's rationale for the fighting in Iraq. In that law are two and only two reasons for using force in Iraq

One was the National Security of the United States (go look that up sometime in an official U.S. gov. document, surpriseingly it reaches beyound our boarders and does not require immenant danger of invasion)

Two enforcement of U.N. national security council resolutions

In Public Law 107 there are over 20 examples of why at the current time of the passage Saddams Iraq had met one or both of those two reasons for the use of force. The whereas statements are not numbered as non were considered of more concern then the other and any of those examples warranted use of force. I believe(and this point Im not 100 per. on) It did not limit the causeation for the required two reasons being met to the examples listed in the bill.

Mr. Elder thanks
great article and had there been more like this from a broader range of reportes and columnist instead of the intelectually sophmoric tripe rangerrick vomits out throughout our conquer and rebuilding efforts We might have had a less costlier time of it.

Hey old rick ranger at it again
Mr I was holding the halp me jon carry sign in that famous photo...ohhh but not that photo

Mr Naval capt flying daily combat missions....I mean I used to fly daily combat missions.

Oh and my favorite

If a knife wielding attacker came at me I'd break his nose and his arm. Yeah well so what if most major law enforcement consider knife attacks at close range to be extremely dangerous Ive had way much more close combat then even the biggest law enforcement agencies.

rickyranger a man for all jobs and all realities...just not the real reality.

Why shouldn't the US have a prescence?
A US presence in Iraq is a must to preserve what was won in their behalf, and make sure that the Sunnis are not overrun by the Shite Persians nextdoor. Further we can rightly claim a percentage basis of their oil until the costs accrued by us are paid in full. We deserve that much after the deaths, the horrific woundings, the execution of unarmed security contractors, and more by the jihadist enemy. All of those lost someone over there comment, "please finish the mission so my son's death won't be in vain."

Only then should we consider accounts settled, and go home.

Reassess your sense
Hey, FYI...
We already have a permanent U.S. military presence in an oil producing country (Kuwait) and Saudi Arabia (much smaller scale).

If we wanted to establish a presence in Iraq just for oil, we did a pretty poor job of it. Some of the contracts to exploit those oil fields are going to non U.S. companies. Although we should be honest with ourselves that part of the reason for exerting our presence in the Middle East was to maintain the secure supply of oil for the West.

Reassess your common sense
The purpose was clear: to establish a permanent U.S. military presence in a major oil nation regardless whether Iraqis wanted us there or not. Elder offers a pathetic rationale to justify the needless deaths and dislocations of hundreds of thousands of innocents.

Merits of going to Iraq
We can argue the merits of invading Iraq all day long. We are there now...we have to live with what we have. I believe we went there with the right intentions...

What is certain is that Al Queda made the fight in Iraq a central front in their war against the West and sent many of their best fighters to Iraq. They expended much treasure and blood in their attempt to defeat us in Iraq. They failed and paid a terrible price for their effort.

Are they defeated totally? No, but fighting them in Iraq, draining their resources and killing their fighters there is arguably better than dealing with them here on our own soil. It brought them out in the open where we could focus our power on them. There were many mistakes made along the way. War is like that. The change to a true counterinsurgency strategy is paying off.
It's not over yet and there is uncertainty wheter or not Iraq will be able to remain stable, but we have given the Iraqis a reasonable chance.

Zackary from Georgia
True, the fact that we never found any weapons of mass destruction does not mean they were not there.

We did detect chemicals in the Iraq's rivers indicating chemical weapons. Our Satelittes also photographed 18 tractor trailors leaving Iraq the week before invasion and ended up in Syria.

We do know Osama Bin Laden did say Iraq was the new front in the war for Al Quadda.

I take that to mean the front was moved from U.S. soil to Iraq. Only liberals would oppose that.

Ranger29 from TX
Thank you for listing the only reasons you were aware of.

There were many more not on your list. I guess whatever news source you watch never reported it.

That is very common with the Liberal media.

It explains why so many of Obama's supporters were unaware that the Democrats in congress and were responsible for the Housing crash.

Your post indicates you are unaware Obama has already stated he has no objection to putting U.S. Troops into Darfur.

Too Risky to continue playing the game
After the first gulf war Saddam agreed to UN sanctions and an agreement which he would declare and disarm in a verifiable way his on going WMD programs...within 2 weeks of the cease fire agreement.

He didn't do this. Instead he began a long term game of cat and mouse in hopes we would get tired and eventually lower our guard and lift the sanctions. We believed him to be only a minor threat at the time.

Then came the attacks of September 11th. We realized the terrorists were much more sophisticated and capable than previously believed. We realized the tremendous damage they could inflict upon a population if ever they got their hands on a chemical, biological or nuclear weapon.

Since any WMD would most likely be manufactured by a state, it would be in our national security interests to prevent an unfriendly state from making them.

Since Saddam was failing to comply with existing UN resolutions and cease fire agreements and continued to play cat and mouse with his WMD programs, he presented the gravest threat as the one most likely to develop such weapons which could end up in the hands of terrorists.

Saddam was a risk we were willing to live with prior to Sept. 11th, but after the attacks, we realized it was too great a risk to continue playing the cat and mouse game. Therefore, he had to be removed.

Interesting
Is there data supporting the idea we should not have gone to Iraq? I guess Iraq was running perfectly under Hussein. Of course when you are a dictator, things tend to run exactly as you wish. Particularly when you are funding several terrorist orginizations. You can argue this all day long, but Hussein himself was a WMD.

Zaak J.

Ranger29 from TX

Sorry you missed all the reasons for removing Saddam. There were many. They were all well outlined before congress and the U.N. by both the Clinton and Bush administrations.

My particular favorite is "Crimes Against Humanity". That is the very same reason we removed Milosovic from Yogoslavia.

Any Liberal who supported Bill Clinton removing Milosovic will certainly support Bush removing Saddam just to maintain some semblance of intellectual integrity.
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