Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Thursday, July 10, 2008
Larry Elder :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why Do We "Keep and Bear Arms"? Part 2
by Larry Elder
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


Did it work -- the Washington, DC, gun ban, that is?

The Supreme Court, in a 5-4 decision, struck down the ban, holding that a) the Second Amendment gives individuals the right to keep and bear arms, and b) while the government may regulate the boundaries of the Second Amendment, the DC ban goes too far.

The New York Times, in an editorial condemning the Supreme Court case, says: "Thirty-thousand Americans are killed by guns every year -- on the job, walking to school, at the shopping mall. The Supreme Court on Thursday all but ensured that even more Americans will die senselessly."

Really?

The 30,000 number includes 17,000 suicides. But a person intent on suicide finds a way -- gun or no gun. In Japan, for example, more than twice as many people, per capita, kill themselves, yet that country bans handguns.

The hand-wringing New York Times editorial fails to ask the following questions: How many Americans use guns to defend themselves? Of that number, how many believe that but for their ability to use their guns in self-defense, they would be dead?

"When a robbery victim does not defend himself," former assistant district attorney and firearms expert David Kopel writes, "the robber succeeds 88 percent of the time, and the victim is injured 25 percent of the time. When a victim resists with a gun, the robbery success rate falls to 30 percent, and the victim injury rate falls to 17 percent. No other response to a robbery -- from drawing a knife to shouting for help to fleeing -- produces such low rates of victim injury and robbery success."

Criminologist and researcher Gary Kleck, using his own commissioned phone surveys and number extrapolation, estimates that 2.5 million Americans use guns for defensive purposes each year. One in six of that number, or 400,000, believe someone would have been dead but for their ability to resort to their defensive use of firearms. Kleck points out that if only one-tenth of the people are right about saving a life, the number of people saved annually by guns would still be 40,000.

The Department of Justice's own National Institute of Justice study entitled "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms" estimates that 1.5 million Americans use guns for defensive purposes every year. Although the government's figure estimates a million fewer people defensively using guns, the NIJ calls their figure "directly comparable" to Kleck's, noting, "It is statistically plausible that the difference is due to sampling error." Furthermore, the NIJ reports that half of their respondents who said they used guns defensively also admitted having done so multiple times a year -- making the number of estimated (SET ITAL) uses (END ITAL) of self-defense with a gun 4.7 million times annually.

UCLA Professor Emeritus James Q. Wilson, a respected expert on crime, police practices and guns, says: "We know from Census Bureau surveys that something beyond 100,000 uses of guns for self-defense occur every year. We know from smaller surveys of a commercial nature that the number may be as high as 2 1/2 or 3 million. We don't know what the right number is, but whatever the right number is, it's not a trivial number."

But what of the Washington, DC, gun ban?

In the five years preceding the 1976 ban, the per capita murder rate in Washington, DC, fell. At the time the law passed, the murder and non-negligent manslaughter rate was 26.8 per 100,000 people. By 1991, the rate rose to 80.6. In 2006, the number stood at 29.1, almost 9 percent higher than the 1976 rate. DC's per capita murder rate remains higher than surrounding states.

A "hot burglary" occurs when the bad guy enters a home knowing it is occupied. The hot burglary rate in the United States is about 10 percent, while the hot burglary rate in the U.K. -- which banned handguns in 1997 -- is around 50 percent.

Why not ask the real experts -- criminals?

The U.S. Department of Justice's National Institute of Justice surveyed 2,000 felons in state prisons. It asked whether "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime." Seventy-four percent of the felons said yes. The survey also asked these felons whether they had abandoned at least one crime because they feared the intended suspect might be armed. Thirty-nine percent said they abandoned at least one crime; 8 percent had abandoned such a crime "many" times; 34 percent admitted being "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"; and nearly 70 percent knew a "colleague" who had abandoned a crime, been scared off, been shot at, wounded or captured by a victim packing heat.

So, did the Washington, DC, gun ban "work"?

As the city's former Mayor Marion Barry once put it, "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country."

So there.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Larry Elder is a syndicated radio talk show host and best-selling author. His latest book, "What's Race Got to Do with It?" is available now.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read Larry Elder's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
 
©Creators Syndicate
Round Two - Ding, Ding, Ding
All you timid gun grabbers may now start your whining.

TIMID gun grabbers?
When it comes to eliminating other peoples' rights, these folks are downright BOLD!

Larry,
It's quite the shame you must waste your time explaining a concept so simple that anyone but a liberal could understand.

What is the motive of Gun Grabbers?
It is obvious, the motive is eventual control, errosion of freedoms under globalism, with the U.N. world court the ultimate arbitar of rights... which of course will be redifined.
The liberal left are on board, some are useful idiots, indoctrinated and clueless.
Supreme court judges now refer to Europe's laws when mulling their decisions. The constitutuion has become this "living, breathing" document that evolves...or irrelevent, so the left says.
Multi-culturalism is a tool to undermine our national identity, patriotism and American ideals. No objective person whom reads the founder's writing and quotations can come away without undesrtanding their firm belief in the necessity of Judeo-Christian values as a base for our Republic to survive.
Every one of the ten amendments in the bill of rights refer to an "individual" right. The left however dismisses that concept when it doesn't fit their agenda. The second amendment doesn't.

Robbers and thieves
The true robbers and thieves is the American government and it's corporate sponsors.

Set your sights on the true enemy people!

Gun-Grabbing Despots..
There has never been any kind of credible link established between gun control and crime reduction... Never !! Communities with the strictist gun laws always suffer the highest crime rates, where as communities with the least
restrictions on guns always enjoy the lowest crime rates... Always !! and there is plenty of easily verifible evidence to back that up... Therefor, any politician that pushes a gun control agenda is a despotic tyrant, and any citizen that supports gun control is a useful idiot.. It's that simple

Alrgight
At ease, maggots.

Sergeant Slaughter's here.

Gun control? GUN CONTROL?!

What kind of maggot thinks we don't need gun control?

Of course we need gun control!!

Without proper gun control, how the #$%@#% hell are ya gonna hit anything?

After properly training myself, I have the gun control I need to get a nice tight three shot grouping right smack dab in the middle of the &*^%&$ target!

Of course, I know you %#(@%& lefties are thinking gun control means law abiding citizens shouldn't have guns. Well, you maggots need to pull you heads out of your collective *ss!

What are ya gonna do to defend yourself? Take careful aim and throw your liberal bleeding heart at a violent intruder in your home? Yeah, pukes, why don't you see if that works?

After the intruder eats you alive for breakfast, maybe eventually the puke will decide to break into the home of yours truly, and then I can show him the meaning of proper gun control.

"Nuff said!

Fall out!

march hares and madmen
This article is full of reasoned arguments, but you can't reason with liberals. Their foot soldiers are creatures of emotion, and their leaders are seeking power.

Alright
At ease, maggots.

Sergeant Slaughter's back.

Of course the term gun control requires a little bit of explanation to avoid confusion.

You see, in the Army, we don't use the word gun when referring to the firearm we are issued. Like my drill sergeant said to yours truly when I was a young, wet behind the ears puke,

"Never call your M16 a gun. It's a weapon. A weapon is for killing, a gun is for fun!"

It occurs to me that maybe that's why liberals are so eager for gun control. I'm sure they're all busy controlling their guns every time Obama speaks. Probably explains why Chris Matthews got a shiver down his leg when he watched Obama on stage.

Let the liberals control their guns as much as they want. Just as long as they don't try to come after my weapons, I'm fine.

'Nuff said.

Fall out!

I might add
That Australia has suffered a similar upswing in violent crime to that in the UK since they instituted Draconian laws regarding firearms a decade ago (to hearty cheers and attaboys from the "enlightened elite" both in Oz, and here). Today, the murder rate in Australia is about even with... Washington, D.C., and the crime du jour' of the criminal fraternity is kidnapping for profit.

Meanwhile, in the UK, there is now a campaign to get knives off the streets, on the grounds that the homicide rate is through the roof compared to what the British were used to before Blair and Brown. As for the fact that the firearms murder rate has exploded as well...... umm, the Home Secretary doesn't want to talk about that. (Gordon Brown doesn't, either.)

As for "hot" burglaries, they occur because the burglars want the homeowner there to open safes, tell them where valuables are hidden, etc.

Here in Central OH, we had a spate of home invasions a year ago, on similar principles. The spree ended quickly everywhere but Columbus, where they still occur regularly. The difference being, outside of Columbus, the "invaders" kept getting shot dead for their trouble. In Columbus, with D.C. style anti-self-defense laws, it's still "open season".

On the homeowners, that is.

cheers

eon

Unfortunately,
Unfortunately, the left-liberals who promote this sort of policy couldn't care less about what actually works.

The important thing is how it makes them *feel*. Since they see guns as scary, dangerous, or downright evil they find it critical to eliminate them so they can avoid the trauma of actually seeing a gun.

I wonder what that gun death statistic would look like if you not only eliminated suicides but also eliminated all the deaths resulting from being shot during the commission of a crime and all the criminal on criminal shootings?

Sergeant Slaughter
Sergeant Slaughter
Location: MT

Reply # 2
Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 6:26 AM EST Subject: Alrgight
At ease, maggots.

Sergeant Slaughter's here.

Gun control? GUN CONTROL?!

~~~

Gun control, to me, means hitting your target !

I got my first gun in 1952 at age 10. I used it to put food on the table.

Over the years, I became quite proficient with rifles and handguns.

I could put a round of 22 cal. through the hull of a .410 shotshell at 25 yards, using a Colt Woodsman, with every shot.

Also, I could put 6 rounds of 44 Mag. into a 2 inch circle, double action at 7 yards, with 5 of them going into one hole. That 6th chamber always threw out the one flyer.

Yes, Sarge, I know gun control ~ my style and yours! Samo-samo. :-)

Rats
(and mice)


OBTW, would you like to join the Wirs Bashing team? P.J Wirs is an Axehat fool, that is posting about two columns per week with stupid cr@p. Read a few of his back colums, and the comments. I think you would like it.


Sergeant Slaughter
Sergeant Slaughter
Location: MT

Reply # 2
Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 6:26 AM EST Subject: Alrgight
At ease, maggots.

Sergeant Slaughter's here.

Gun control? GUN CONTROL?!

~~~

By the way, are you any relation to Elmer Keith?

Elmer was a strong leader in firepower, and promoted the development of the 44 Magnum pistol. He hand-loaded 44 Special rounds to 44 Mag levels.

He became good at hitting his target at 700 yards with his Special. He wrote columns for many years, and was a true advocate for Handguns.

Yes, he also lived in Montana.

Anyway, welcome to TH ! So far, you sound like a true-blue!

Rats
(and mice)

Rats (and mice)
True-blue?

Let's get one thing straight there, maggot!

There ain't nothing blue 'bout Sergeant Slaughter!

I'm a red-blooded American man!

I'm a red state conservative!

Now, Rats and Mice, I like ya, otherwise I wouldn't have stopped to give ya this explanation, but don't call me blue.

I ain't sad, and I ain't a liberal?

Questions?

'Nuff said!

Move 'em out!

Damn typos
My last post needs the following correction:

I ain't sad, and I ain't a liberal!!

Curtal/eon/Ratas
morning one and all!

LMAO
Sergeant Slaughter, that was a classic!

"this is my rifle,
this is my gun,
this is for fighting,
this is for fun"

Right out of "Full Metal Jacket" and in the good old days of Marines Boot Camp!
Gotta love it.

Mother of 4

"Mother of 4
Location: NC

Reply # 2
Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 7:52 AM EST Subject: Unfortunately,
Unfortunately, the left-liberals who promote this sort of policy couldn't care less about what actually works.

The important thing is how it makes them *feel*. Since they see guns as scary, dangerous, or downright evil they find it critical to eliminate them so they can avoid the trauma of actually seeing a gun.

I wonder what that gun death statistic would look like if you not only eliminated suicides but also eliminated all the deaths resulting from being shot during the commission of a crime and all the criminal on criminal shootings? "

~~~

Mom-of-4

Hi there fine lady.

Are you still plunking them into the X ring?

Yeah, me too. Please keep up the fine work.

I will try to keep up.

I also admire how you keep up with the facts ! As we all know, the MSM will attempt to distort all facts to promote their agenda !

OBTW, My Dad's folks came from NC to Indiana in the 1830s. My Great Grandmother was the first non-Indian born in Tipton County, Indiana, in 1834.

Rats
(and mice)

Sergeant Slaughter
"ready on the right"
"ready on the left"

"all ready on the firing line"



500 yard line, prone position, 49 out of 50 dead center chest!
I love my rifle.

Gun Ownership
Mr Elder, thanks for a great read. My head is spinning with an overload of common sense.

The fact will always be with us that a man with a gun will be feared by criminal and mischievous politican alike, they cannot have their way with someone willing to defend their position.

Guns to me are tools, they have been designed to do different things, accomplish different task. I liken them to the ladies and how they look at diamonds or maybe shoes, they can never have to many to suit whatever the occsion.

Thomas Jefferson made mention his favorite pass time was taking walks, and his constant companion was his gun. It must have given him great comfort and security to know he could deal with most situations.

The greatest missconseption about being armed is that I am the weapon not my gun, but liberals understand this and this is why they try so hard to take my tools away.

That we won a battle does not mean the war on further control of citizens owning guns is over and we should not go back to sleep thinking its over. The attack on ammunition is next and is not new as it was tried in the late 60's and early 70's just after the 68 gun control act.

The gun grab group will not take defeat easily and will come back with an even stronger attempt to make gun owning as difficult as they can.

Unity of gun owners and the Mr. Elders of our community will be the reason we will prevail in maintaining the freedoms we now enjoy.

Gun Owners of America is another organization well worth looking into, they are a no compromise group with sound principles.

PREDICTION
The repeal of the DC gun ban will result in drastically reduced crime rates, and the MSM will fail to give it adequate coverage. When they do mention it, they will attribute it to a new police chief, or increased numbers of cops, or, if Obama is elected, they'll give him the credit.

Guns for Self Defense
When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

I'll defend myself, thank you.

The gunfight at the OK Corral was over gun control.

Alright
At ease, maggots.

SSGT says:
"500 yard line, prone position, 49 out of 50 dead center chest!
I love my rifle."

Now that's proper weapon control!

Exactly what Sergeant Slaughter likes to see.

Give 'em hell, SSGT!

Move 'em out!

You know
Elder writes the silliest columns sometimes. His audience doesn’t reach out into the moderates let alone liberal crowd; and all of us already know dozens of good reasons for wanting to own guns. He brings no new perspective to the table and only provides fodder for the professional instigators and the folks who like to brag about what they own.

Great Column
Isn't it ironic that the overwhelming statistical evidence shows that we would be better off if EVERYONE had a gun in their homes and was willing to use it AND the liberal coninue to oppose gun ownership.

AGW has nowhere near the amount of physical evidence, and what little there is is contradictory and yet the liberal idiots maintain that the evidence is irrefutable and the argument is over.

I guess that is why they call them liberals.

SSGT
I consider myself a fair shot with a rifle and found that the M14A2 is an excellent weapon: accurate, reliable, rugged. The claim of "49/50 at 500 yds." is barely credible with 7.62 and open sights. It is incredible with 5.56 rounds.

If one of the prime reasons for the 2nd amendment was/is the acknowledgement that Governments tend towards Tyranny, what fool would "Register" his weapons with that very Government?

MikeR
thanks for sharing just about nothing to this column vice your ever lasting pompus attitude.

MikeyR: "this is my rifle,
this is my water pistol,
this is for shooting,
this is for...

Sergeant Slaughter
You are a riot ! :-)

Sergeant Slaughter
Location: MT

Reply # 8
Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 8:23 AM EST Rats (and mice)
True-blue?

Let's get one thing straight there, maggot!

There ain't nothing blue 'bout Sergeant Slaughter!

I'm a red-blooded American man!

I'm a red state conservative!

Now, Rats and Mice, I like ya, otherwise I wouldn't have stopped to give ya this explanation, but don't call me blue.

I ain't sad, and I ain't a liberal?

Questions?

'Nuff said!

Move 'em out!

~~~

Lighten up guy! 'True Blue' Was an honorable Title many years ago.

I can tell you are one of us! I was an E-5 in the Navy, so I ain't a maggot any more. (unless of course you are/were a Marine, in which case I will give you a pass)

Now I am a full grown fly. I do not follow the other services ranks, so I do not know what rank (E-level) you are, or were.

I must be the only person in the world that enjoyed boot camp.

It was fun! Some clown didn't pass inspection. He walked around with a bucket full of soapy water, and at every pause, he had to bend over and scrub his
clothes. Another fellow had to march inside a G.I. can, stark naked, in full sight of Highway 101, with his uniform inside the can, filled with soapy water.




Rats
(and mice)

Professor
Credible? No, not so incredible. Its all in the "breathing" and a slow squeeze! Just ask all the Marines who can do it 50/50 times. That means I need more practice!
In bootcamp, on the rifle range, if you went 9/10 at the 500 yard line, you got DROPPED!

Now drop and give us 20!!!!!!!

SSGT
MikeyR: "this is my brain,
this is my lower lip,
one is for shooting,
the other is for the drip


As for the 500 yd range I just wish we had one around here. The best group I ever had was with an old 03-A3 at 100 yds, all inside 1/2 inch. (iron sights, hand loaded 160 gr boat tail spire points)

Now we don't even have that 100 yd range anymore.

SSGT
Hey no problem. And thanks for proving that this thread will be filled mostly with braggarts and instigators. Do you want to guess which group you fit into or are you too busy writing another post telling us how great you are?

Oh, and the M14 is a superior weapon. The pistol grip on the M16 felt strange and uncomfortable.

Vic
Copying from SSGT? I know you can’t actually counter a single one of my arguments, but can’t you at least come up with an original insult?

Best thread yet!
Gracious I LOL and I'm still mentally picking out my favorite neighborhood. I'm trying to figure out what kind of weapon an aging lady with shaky hands and bad eyesight would get w/o being a danger to the innocents? I'm sure the experts here would have suggestions. I want to have a weapon before the idiots in Chicago start including the outlying areas.

MikeR
Since your posts never has an original thought, only repeats of the Commiecrat Party talking points one doesn't need an original insult for you.

You are an insult to life itself.

SSGT, Rats, Sgt Slaughter, I'd like you
in my foxhole any day. While I was never in the military, I do shoot pretty good with a rifle and OK with my Glock. Never been to a range past 100yds, but my 30-30 with iron sights gives me 1" groupings at 100yds and I have yet to get to anything other than NRA headquarters with my "new" FA91 7.62. There at maximum range one clip emptied into one hole in the target. Can't wait to try it at longer ranges.

Gun control = hitting what you aim at and properly selecting what to aim at!

MD/MG
For home defense without much practice you can't beat a shotgun. Google coach gun and check out prices. Also read this article:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/sports/1277346.htm l

Vic
Well what do you know? When I wrote “all of us already know dozens of good reasons for wanting to own guns”, I was really expressing a “Commiecrat Party talking points”.

Gee Vic, I didn’t know the “Commiecrat Party” supported owning guns. I guess you showed me, and by showing, I mean you showed us all that you don’t take time to think. If you want to accuse me of liberal ideology, try using a liberal statement as an example, not a conservative one.

Furthermore, an original thought is something that separates one from the herd. Since when have I ever agreed with the consensus and when have you ever disagreed?

Obama Supports Infanticide
This is according to Jill Stanek:

"Barack Obama is so radically pro-abortion he supports infanticide, as evidenced by his active opposition to the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act. This makes him further left than any U.S. senator and even NARAL."

It really doesn't matter what he says this week, Obama voted for infanticide when he opposed the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act. No pro-lifer should be fooled into thinking that Obama has changed his position on abortion in general and late-term abortion specifically. No pro-lifer should vote for Obama.

Did it work -- DC, gun ban?
""Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country."

So maybe it did, except for all those dead people. Chicago, Boston and so many other cities have that attitude. California is rapidly becoming draconian on gun control, it never works and I do not believe the gun grabbers think it will.

But a well armed citizenry is a threat to the Nanny Staters control, to the Globalist and would be tyrants. And that good people is what the Second Amendment and our God given right to self defense is all about.

The UN and America's Leftist bewail the numbers of people killed with handguns but say nothing about the UNARMED citizens killed by the state in Rwanda, Darfur, South Sudan, Burma and a dozen other hell holes.

Hypocrites, hypocrites, hypocrites all.

" I'm trying to figure out what kind of weapon an aging lady with shaky hands and bad eyesight would get w/o being a danger to the innocents?"

My wife carries a Smith & Wesson J-frame in .38cal, keeps her eye exams current and PRACTICES. She is an excellent shot. So am I.

Very good Mr. Elders

Obama Supports Infanticide
This is according to Jill Stanek:

"Barack Obama is so radically pro-abortion he supports infanticide, as evidenced by his active opposition to the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act. This makes him further left than any U.S. senator and even NARAL."

It really doesn't matter what he says this week, Obama voted for infanticide when he opposed the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act. No pro-lifer should be fooled into thinking that Obama has changed his position on abortion in general and late-term abortion specifically. No pro-lifer should vote for Obama.

MD/MG

MD/MG
Location: IL

Reply # 1
Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 10:05 AM EST Best thread yet!
Gracious I LOL and I'm still mentally picking out my favorite neighborhood. I'm trying to figure out what kind of weapon an aging lady with shaky hands and bad eyesight would get w/o being a danger to the innocents? I'm sure the experts here would have suggestions. I want to have a weapon before the idiots in Chicago start including the outlying areas.

~~~

MD/MG,

I would suggest a 20 Gauge Shotgun, with a 20 inch barrel. Load it with # 6 shot.

Number 6 shot will be less likely to penetrate walls, and injure others.

It will also effectively stop ANY intruder.

I would choose a 'Pump Shotgun' because , just the sound of 'racking the slide' will repel most anyone.

Please get training, and good advice. Try a local Gun-club. Then practice using it.

Fire at least 10-20 rounds per week for a few weeks.

Also, and this is MOST important, DO LET ANYONE GET WITHIN 10 Feet of you !!!

If they are that close and still advancing, SHOOT THEM, or they will kill you !



Hard Thought - further thought
"The gunfight at the OK Corral was over gun control."

So was "the shot heard round the world," aka the Battle of Lexington & Concord. Yes, the American Revolution started with a gun grab.

Personally, I'm just another humble history-loving, SUV-driving, home-owning, tax-paying, conservative-voting, US college professor who also joyfully exercises his 2nd Amendment rights. And I'd like to take a moment to thank the veterans who preserved all these rights for me.

Getting it right
GUN CONTROL MEANS USING BOTH HANDS...

It's interesting this article . .
. . . should appear this morning . . .

since only yesterday I spent the entire afternoon at the Gun Range with my 11-year-old great-grandson. We brought along four friends -- Glock, Smith, Wesson, and Mossberg.

Over the past year, my great-granson has become a fine marksman who handles firearms with care and respect. He understands these are not toys! His father, his grandfather and I are teaching him that this skill will stand him in good stead regardless of what future world conditions may bring!

Yeah, let O'Vomit and Frankenstein-Not-Too-Bright "talk" to America's enemies!!!

While they're blathering, I hope I've done my best to prepare the next three generations of my family to deal with America's enemies another way -- one the Jihadists understand.

While teaching my great-grandson the skills he needs to live in a Free Amercia, I hope it also in some way honors the veterans of WW-I, WW-II, Korea, Vietnam, and the Gulf Wars . . . that they did not die (or were maimed) in vain!

THIS great-granny is "licensed to carry" -- and I DO -- EVERY DAY!!!!

Best regards to all America-Loving-Patriots,

Jana Martin
Oklahoma City, OK

P.S. To the rest -- Love it or Leave it!!!




You're Right Unca Alby
I mistook the gun grabbers alleged fear of confronting armed criminals for genuine concern and unease at the thought of defending themselves. I have seen the light. I now understand that they are merely being duplicitous.

No one could be so genuinely naive to believe that the criminal class would follow new gun control laws any better than they follow the current laws about criminal assault and murder.

Secret Service
Why do Secret Service agents carry firearms if they are so dangerous?

Maybe it is the fact that firearms are dangerous that the Secret Service uses them?

Sergeant Slaughter
I love your posts. Your are fast and quick on the up take.

Rifle Qual
Come on now professor, as a former Marine instructor at San Onofre,I know, that in qualifing with the m14 we never had to fire more than 10 rounds from 500 yards. (all prone) 9\10 was outstanding. 49\50 was quite rare and would not have been part of normal qualifacation. Not even for recon marines Do you remember your total score?

Rich Not wealthy/Vic
I think MikeR would fit well in a foxhole with us. When we tire, we could always send him out and bore the enemy to death!

Gun Visions..
I would imagine that when a person chooses a firearm to purchase they are envisioning a scenario in which they are going to use it.

Other than home security and hunting what are some of these scenarios you could imagine youself in when you pick up a firearm, consider it's power and range that you could see yourself firing it at a target?

A MESSAGE TO 10 STATES
This battle is far from won. But the DC v Heller decision gives us some breathing room prior to the next attack by Marxist gun grabbers, aka “Liberals”. Unfortunately some of us live in one of the 10 States still refusing to recognize our Right to bear arms, in defiance of the DC v Heller ruling. Two States refuse to issue CCW permits to any civilian. The remaining 8 issue only to politicians, celebrities, and those willing to “contribute”, (read here, Bribe), to their local sheriffs election campaign. The going rate in CA is $5,000. My solution is this: Since these 10 Socialist controlled States continue to defy the Supreme Court, I defy the State and carry a gun without a permit. I urge everyone living in one of these 10 un-free States to do the same. Perhaps massive civil defiance may deliver the message: OUR RIGHTS WILL NOT BE INFRINGED!

Alright
At ease, maggots.

Sergeant Slaughter is here.

MikeR?

The puke looks like a great candidate for picking up the brass after real men get done qualifying on the range.

And he won't get to run home to Mary Jane Crotchrocket until he picks up each and every last one of them.

'Nuff said!

Fall out!

RE: "Gun Visions"
Typical leftist emotional view; "gun owners have daydreams about shooting people."

The truth of the matter is that private gun owners don't typically daydream about the day when we can put a round between someone's eyes.

Law abidng gun owners (leftists tend to lump criminals in with "gun owners," in the same way that they lump gun suicides in with "gun violence victims") realize that one's survival in a confrontation depends on reaction times measured in fractions of a second, and that police response is measured in minutes.

We realize that compliance with the demands of a criminal is no guarantee of safety.

We realize that criminals prey on the weak and defenseless, and avoid those who might be difficult to force.

We realize that in the end, no one is responsible for our own safety but ourselves.

RE: SUbject: Gun Visions
Left Angle:

How about, "This is totally cool! I wonder if I can hit 12" targets at 500 yards with a 'stock' battle rifle?"

While it is always fun to use a pimped out match grade rifle (or pistol) specifically designed for the exact course you're firing, it's also nice to see how good you can do with "normal" (i.e., "milspec" or "service grade") gear.

Just like any sport, say, climbing.

Sure, it's easier to do with all the best gear money can buy. . . but sometimes you just want to see what you can do with the absolute minimum, pitting YOUR SKILL against the objective.

And sometimes, we buy guns because we love the historical connection we feel -- such as my 1906 Browning semiautomatic pistol. Or as I do when I hold and fire a semiautomatic version of an automatic arm.

I guess everyone who buys a fast car must "envision" himself driving 200mph -- and that his "envisioning" himself driving at 3 or 4 times the legal (and engineering) limits of teh roads (and action that would be CRIMINALLY negligent and dangerous to the innocent) someone is an indication that he cannot be trusted with such a dangerous machine?

You have admitted you don't know ANYTHING about guns, other than your scary (and generally unfounded) claims of danger.

Your opinion on gun related issues is about as valid or useful as my opinion on SCUBA diving -- i.e., none. (But I'll bet I know more about SCUBA than you know about guns, even though I have almost NO interest in SCUBA at all. . . )

If you truly think guns are dangerous things, you would be best served by doing your utmost to understand them and how to use them -- it's called "Knowing your enemy." Which is why I am thoroughly versed on things I abhor and fear. (It hasn't changed my opinion on those things, but I better understand them and can combat or avoid them.)

SSGT
You know, the funny thing is that my nickname silent night because in those days I really didn’t speak much and if you pulled duty with me, that’s what you were in for.

Alright.
Sergeant Slaughter's here.

Left Angle coughs up:
"Other than home security and hunting what are some of these scenarios you could imagine youself in when you pick up a firearm, consider it's power and range that you could see yourself firing it at a target?"

Those are the scenarios that we envision, numbnuts!

You, on the other hand, seem to have some fantasies of firearms that are unnaceptable!

Just cause you shot at other kids with your bb gun and tortured dogs and cats does not mean that the rest of society does!

Where the hell are you from, maggot?

Sounds like somebody failed to teach you any discipline or respect!

Military training might have done you good boy!

Then again, if you're the liberal whiner that you seem to be, you probably would have washed out after two days and gone running back to the arms of Mary Jane Crotchrocket!

Visions
Left Angle,

I envision all of the bullets in the magazine hitting the center of the target when I shoot, although it rarely happens anymore as a I grow older. It's a real Zen-like experience. You ought to try it.

On the other hand, when I envision you, I just see the pimple-faced, scrawny dweeb in disheveled, outdated clothes and a dorky beret handing out Communist Party pamphlets at my university.

Ragner
The Heller decision ONLY applies to federal laws; i.e. DC.

Look at the foonote on page 48 of the decision which states that "incorporation" was not considered.

The test of State law will come with the SF and Chicago lawsuits.

SGTS et al
When I taught school, I always found one student who was soooo annoying I would mentally designate him the 'storm watcher'. That would be the person I would send out into the open field with a golf club raised on high to warn us of impending lightening. Miker fits that designation.

Numbers Do Not Lie
http://www.gunowners.org/sk0802.htm

The anti-gunners can trot out all of the hysteria and emotional rhetoric they want, but when it comes down to cold hard facts and reality, gun bans do not work. Period.

Just google gun ban Australia

Go to YouTube and search for British guns

This is silly that we're even debating this. It's a right that isn't given byt the constuitution, but ACKNOWLEDGED by it.

It's called PROJECTION !!!
Libs like to project their own irrationalities on others, particularly conservatives. It makes them feel superior. Superiority is their ultimate drug of choice. What's the best "high" around? MORAL superiority of course and they have to get a healthy fix every day.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Vic

Re: “The Heller decision ONLY applies to federal laws; i.e. DC.”

Yes. Im aware of that. My point and reason for defiance of State CCW laws is that I look past the Heller Decision to the TRUE intent of the 2nd Amd.
Heller is a good beginning but only a first step in the right direction.

Lefty
"Other than home security and hunting what are some of these scenarios you could imagine youself in when you pick up a firearm?"

"Other than driving to work, running errands, and going to antiwar rallies, what are some of these scenarios you could imagine youself in when you buy a car?"

Good article and thread--
Long ago we found that our 28ga. Remington pump with #4 shot was the best in house protection. Outside, the AR 15. A S&W 38 is not bad either.

Sergeant Slaughter
I suppose I’m considered a puke because I said that there are dozens of good reasons for owning a gun; or maybe because I said Elder brings nothing new to the debate. If I were you, I’d pick the former as the latter suggests an un-natural attraction to Elder.

I guess it was inevitable that some macho man would have to associate his weapons with his pen1s. And of course you are giving us another good reason for gun ownership. It helps people like you to re-affirm their manhood.

SVARA
28 gauge?

I have a 12ga Remington pump myself and love it, though I don't think Ratas y Ratones would enjoy the recoil!

I think for her situation, getting up there in age, a 20-gauge would be better than ANY pistol, realistically.

MD/MG
Wow, saying there are dozens of good reasons for owning a gun and Elder brings nothing new to the debate was that bad for you? Or is it that I respond to people whose only answer to my point is an insult? I had no idea that could be so annoying. But I guess it makes sense. I’ve noticed on the farm how upset the sheep get when someone strays from the herd.

IT'S THURSDAY!! WHERE'S COULTER!!!???!!!
IT'S THURSDAY!! WHERE'S COULTER!!!???!!!

Those numbers?
The higher number of rapes, murders & robbery in areas where laws discourage civilians from owning the means of self defense are not just numbers on paper. They are people, like you & I, like your mother or your cousin or brother. People who bleed & die or are scarred for life.
People who must pay higher taxes and insurance rates because of oppressive anti-gun laws.

People who often must put bars on their own windows and multiple locks on their doors.
People who are forced to fear criminals.
People who can't go for a cool evening stroll through a city park.

The sheeplike cowards who fear guns in the hands of honest men and the politicians who appease them are responsible for the extra death, just as surely as if they had pulled the trigger. They are responsible for the extra rape just as if they helped to hold the victim because these extra crimes would not have occurred but for them.

Anti-gun cowards are the worst criminals in our society because they enable criminals.

"Rambo" gun owners???
I see there are still a few Libs like Left Angle who envision gun owners as “Rambo Wannabees”, looking for an excuse to shoot someone. There are likely a miniscule minority of these types. And they should not carry guns. But here are the FACTS most responsible gun owners are now aware of. In the unlikely situation you’re forced to use a gun in self defense or the defense of others, resulting in a fatality, the following can be expected:
You’ll be detained and questioned. Your gun will be confiscated and likely not returned. If stupid enough to make a statement without an attorney, you’ll possibly be arrested and charged with “Voluntary Manslaughter”. If you live in a Socialist controlled State like CA and carry without a permit, which I do, Manslaughter charges are a near certainty. A best case scenario is you beat the charge, after paying 50 to 75K in legal fees. You dont want to think about the worst case. But even if you beat the charge, your troubles are far from over. Before criminal trial ends, civil charges will be filed by the deceased next of kin. Think O.J. and financial ruin. So, contrary to Liberals fantasy of Rambo gun owners itching for a fight, the vast majority of Responsible gun owners dread and avoid situations where they may be forced to use a gun. It’s a no win situation with grim consequences. But having said that, we maintain that it’s still: “Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6”.

RE: Higene
Higene is the gay who made a post on the Burt Prelutsky thread, July 1, @ 12:28 claiming Jesus Christ was gay.
That should tell you what kind of Moonbat he is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As to what is technically covered by the 2nd?
Technically it even would make it unlawful to tax the gas you used to buy or transport ammo or components.

Bad Hygiene
"You law abiding gun worshipers can keep your guns for awhile"

We don't worship them any more than we worship a rake or a mower; we own them.

"although maybe we can hope you'll disappear through attrition by killing each other accidentally"

Won't happen - go to a firing range some time. We "gun worshippers" are the ones who know how to use guns properly and safely.

"but we need to take the guns away from the gang bangers because they're dangerous animals and they're out of control."

Okay, then take them away as part of the arrest process. Even in California, I assume that is normal procedure.

"So, what we have to do instead is create a 'due process' of some kind that will shut the gang bangers down."

It's been created. It's called "the law".

"And if we can't take their guns away from them because of YOUR defense of the 2nd Amendment, then we'll have to go after the ammunition which isn’t protected by the 2nd Amendment."

Good luck with that.

Wrong!!
Larry says, "the Second Amendment gives individuals the right to keep and bear arms"! As John Stossel points out, the 2nd Amendment gives no right whatsoever; it upholds one. It says the right of the people to bear arms shall not be abridged, not that the people will have the right to bear arms. This is a very important distinction.

Gun visions part#2
thanks for your responses. whats interesting is that people think I am antigun because i asked the question I did. that isnt so. I think it is more than reasonable to have a few guns around for home security and humting. I not against citizens buying, selling or owning guns, nor do I support the government taking them away from a citizen. yet in each response it is angled at me as if I do support these things. why the defensiveness.

the way i look at it, if youre purchasing gun you are envisioning a scene in which you are going to use it. other than home security or hunting, I see no other use for handguns or rifles. Yet there are many gunowners with "small arsenals" at their disposal with enough ammo to load them. This has nothing to do with home security or hunting or variety for those purposes. There is something or someone other than criminals you are threatened by and that is what i am trying to find out.

AZphil: a response
I dont imagine myself killing somebody.

Left Angle
"other than home security or hunting, I see no other use for handguns or rifles"

ok, but other than mowing, I see no other use for mowers, either.

AZPhil--
The reason we like the 28ga. is that it is light , less than 6 pounds and if necessary can be fired with one hand. It is also a good quail gun. Granted a 12 ga. is a widow maker. My dad liked his 12 double and 16 semi.

SVARA
Oh, I just thought shotguns skipped from 20-gauage to .410; not familiar with the 28.

Yes, the 12-gauge is a definite widowmaker. The pump sound alone could probably induce a heart attack in a burglar.

And we have a lot of quail (and dove) out this way, too.

Lefty
"I dont imagine myself killing somebody. "

Neither does any driver, but there are FAR more fatal car wrecks than shootings every year.

Left Angle
I understand about the comments. I made a pro gun comment and got slammed. But in response to your question, gun ownership goes way beyond usage. Many models are classics in their own right. The pride in ownership is the same as with any fine instrument or object. Also, certain weapons and models have an intrinsic quality that makes some people just want to own one.

A gun show for example is not just a place to buy and sell. It is a showcase that offers people an opportunity to see close hand both rare and common weapons that hold their interest. Shows like the “Tales of the Gun” are more than dry history. They are popular because they examine a particularly interesting weapon and explore its use and impact.

There is much more to gun ownership than hunting, targets and self defense.

Higene
All of the examples you gave in your "cold war" idea were outside the home. I havn't seen any comments here about killing or wounding someone outside the home, just in. If you are against owning weapons then fine, don't buy any. But leave us legal owners alone!! The only thing you have to worry about from me is if you break in to my house and then you won't have any worries.

Too much TV
These gun-controllers watch entirely too much TV. 80 million people own guns; it's estimated that there is a gun in every other household. Owning a gun is a pretty normal occurence, and these gun owners are pretty regular, reasonable people.

So, let's take a regular reasonable person, and put them in a situation.

Let's say a college professor has a pistol in his briefcase. He here's gunshots in the hallway. Would he:
1) Grab his gun, run into the hallway, and try to find and kill the gunman.
2) Move his class away from the door and take a defensive position, gun drawn, in the event the shooter tries to enter the classroom.

Let's say a homeowner is asleep on the second floor. He hears a window break on the first floor. Will he:
1) Grab his shotgun and run downstairs, firing wildly at where he thinks the source of the noise came from.
2) Grab his gun and gather his family into a single room, take up a defensive position facing the door or the stairs, and announce to the intruder that he has a loaded firearm and is not afraid to use it.

Unlike the movies, a reasonable gun-owner does not think he is invincible (he will take defense instead of offense), he knows he does not have unlimitted ammunition (so he will conserve and make his shots count), and he is not calloused towards taking a human life (he will use his firearm as a last resort).

SVARA
You'll appreciate this...

Ol' Blue

A young cowboy from Texas goes off to college, but half way through the semester, he has foolishly squandered all his money. He calls home. 'Dad,' he says, 'You won't believe what modern education is developing! They actually have a program here in Austin that will teach our dog, Ol' Blue how to talk!'

'That's amazing,' his Dad says. 'How do I get Ol' Blue in that program?'

'Just send him down here with $1,000' the young cowboy says. 'I'll get him in the course.'

So, his father sends the dog and $1,000.

About two-thirds through the semester, the money again runs out. The boy calls home.

'So how's Ol' Blue doing, son?' his father asks.

'Awesome, Dad, he's talking up a storm,' he says, 'but you just won't believe this. They've had such good results they have started to teach the animals how to read!'

'Read!' says his father, 'No kidding! How do we get Ol' Blue in that program?'

'Just send $2,500, I'll get him in the class.'

The money promptly arrives.

But our hero has a problem. At the end of the year, his father will find out the dog can neither talk, nor read.

So he shoots the dog.

When he arrives home at the end of the year, his father is all excited.

'Where's Ol' Blue? I just can't wait to see him read something and talk!'

'Dad, 'the boy says, 'I have some grim news. Yesterday morning, just before we left to drive home, Ol' Blue was in the living room, kicked back in the recliner, reading the Wall Street Journal, like he usually does.

Then he turned to me and asked, 'So, is your daddy still messin' around with that little redhead who lives in town?'

The father exclaimed, 'I hope you shot that dog before he talks to your Mother!'

'I sure did, Dad!'

'That's my boy!'

The kid went on to be a successful lawyer.



MikeR
The history of weapons development can teach you many things that are censored out of history books.

Weapons have made history and dictated geography and created metallurgy.
Much can be learned from the study of weapons.

Yes, they still make the 28
but most people who get them use them for skeet shooting.

MikeR
"There is much more to gun ownership than hunting, targets and self defense. "

Point taken. Jay Leno has about 90 cars he collects, some people collect stamps, and still others might have paintings or books. It's just what interests some people.

AZPhil and Vic--
Thanks for the story about the Ol Blue and yes we have 5 28ga. scatter guns. One old side by side dbl. and 2 Rem. 1148 semis, and one 1100 semi. plus the pump. I haven't had time to look at any of the new ones yet, but I will.

why do liberals think that?
As a liberal, but one who doesn't have any problems about the 2nd Amendment, I'll say a little about why so many of my fellow liberals get weird about guns. First, many of them have never been around guns at all. My father and a cousin taught me how to shoot long guns (father) and handguns (cousin). Lots of people in my family hunted.

Experiences like that are very rare for many liberals. The only things they 'know' about guns come from TV, the movies, and anti-gun propaganda. What they see on TV and in the movies is usually very unrealistic when it comes to guns and gun-handling. Second, the rhetoric of the NRA and some gun enthusiasts turns liberals off. Bragging about accurate shooting and just plain talking about guns is very remote from the personal experiences of many liberals. It sounds completely alien to them, so they think that gun owners and users are all whack jobs. Third, many affluent and/or highly educated liberals can afford to live in very peaceful communities, with very low crime rates. The idea that maybe they might have to defend their families from a burglar sounds like a message from Mars.

Since I'm a liberal, I do favor enforcement of all registration laws and support responsible gun ownership. So, no, I don't think Americans should be able to buy a nice, new XM8 over the counter. I'll bet you Mike Adams already has at least one of them to play with.

Higene -- still hasn't learned
" ... I'll tell you some more about the death of the father and his two sons in that drive-by shooting here in SFO last week: ... "


For every little sob story you can look up in the paper where some innocent dies or is injured from the use of a gun, the statistics indicate there are a hundred stories where innocent lives are SAVED from the use of a gun.

MOST of these stories don't end up in the newspaper, because it doesn't sell. No blood, no story.

As I've said before: we're bringing you statistics, studies, analysis, FACTS.

All you have in your corner are a few heart-breaking sob stories.

DID YOU EVEN BOTHER TO READ LARRY ELDER'S COLUMN???

Modern day blue nose puritans!
I think it was George Bernard Shaw who defined a puritan as "A person who lives in the dread fear that somewhere, somebody is having a good time."

Your basis anti-gun/hunting (they are most often two sides of the same warped coin) fits this profile perfectly.

They have NO interest in either so they project evil intent on those who do. The "just waiting to shoot somebody" or "you just like to kill animals" tripe that gets recycled through the web like rancid sausage meat comes to mind.

In an attempt to be "reasonable" they will "generously" concede that you may want a gun for hunting (unless their anti-hunting) or a gun for defense (unless their anti-gun) but I meet a lot of citiots who are both and VERY smug about it as well.

They see themselves as SO superior in every way to us "neanderthal conservatives" that they genuinely think their doing us a service when they condescend to speak to us at all. Sound like any familiar moonbats flapping around Town Hall?

Notice that these orcs flock to what are for the most part conservative websites to "enlighten" the "benighted" conservatives and get all bent out of shape when we decline to take them seriously and resort to ad hominem attacks. Usually two sentences into their second post when we haven't raised the French (white) flag to them.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Left Angle -- defensiveness
"whats interesting is that people think I am antigun because i asked the question I did. that isnt so."

With a moniker like "LEFT angle" and this SURPRISES YOU??


"why the defensiveness."

Defenders of liberty have been fighting a losing battle for many decades now. Government intrusion into the private affairs of citizens has been growing exponentially.

We can't even buy 3 gallon toilets or incandescent lights anymore. And, thanks to "our boy" McCain, you can run for office if you can pay for it yourself, but you can't pay for somebody else to run.

This recent Supreme Court decision was one of very few victories for liberty; and even there, it was a close call.

So there you have it. At this point, we're just a wee bit edgy over our rights being steadily chipped away.

Re: Hygiene
Do you really think that banning guns will keep them out of the hands of gang-bangers? Drugs are illegal, yet them seem to get a hold of them (in fact sell that to get guns).

There are 4 possible scenarios:
1) No one has guns - impossible, the technology is hundreds of years old, you can make one yourself.
2) Everyone has guns - what we have now
3) Only good people have guns - impossible, see number 1
4) Only bad people have guns - that is what banning guns will result in.

Nice series of articles
Excellent article. I've read many of the sayings and statistics captured in this two-part series, but this is the first time I've seen it all nicely encapsulated in one place.

Facts !
In my City I know of 5 home Robberies and 3 horrible home Invasions .When all three groups of Thugs were nabbed not one of them has a Gun permit since they were all Felons armed to the teeth .
The Three homes that were invaded ,
not one of the three homes owners even had guns in them .
Invade my home and Ya going go out the door on a slab with no need for pain killers or sleeping pills .
I own many loaded guns and will use them if I have too .
When anyone invades a home at 3 in the morning uninvited we don't call the UN or Liberals for a sit down and understand their whys they want to rape or rob .Calling the PO-LICE takes at least 15 minutes to get too my home.....
it's too damn late them ......war all happens in the first 2-3 minutes .
Lock ... load and Fire !

Home Invasion?
You understand what a home invasion is?
The British call them "Hot Burglaries".

That is when criminals force their way into your home, tie up the family, usually with duct tape and proceed to beat, torture, rape and otherwise humiliate the entire family until they are certain nothing of value is being hidden or held back.
They do real bad things to people sometimes, then warn them that if they report this to police they will return to punish them. Certainly there are no exact figures for unreported crimes but the guesstimate is about 2 reported out of every 5.

In Australia the incidence of Home Invasion increased by FOURTEEN TIMES after civilian arms confiscation.
(That is times, not percent! For every one incident before they now have 14!)
Authorities admit they can't do anything to stop it.
Canada had a similar experience but refuses to release figures.

Of course there is no need for you worry. Your family is safe. It will always be the other home they go to!
Ever wonder if the other guy thought that?

Just some, (not all, some are real dumb!), criminals who do Home Invasions know what police response time is in various areas. They prefer areas with long response times. In some areas, they can hand you the phone, let you call police and still have ample time to do whatever they want and leave long before police arrive to fill out forms and make reports.
Sure you can tell the police what they look like. They wore baggy clothes like street gangs do and wore masks and were black? or maybe Mexican? or white? or?

An armed neighbor's response time is right around 90 seconds!
If he is a hunter or Veteran, he will be likely to have more skill at killing than filling out forms.
That is why smart criminals avoid areas where they see many gun club bumper stickers.

Dead eye Gemdude here
I gotta brag on myself as well. Shot marksman w/M-14. Only reason I didn't Xpert was that I couldn't even see the closest targets....early morning haze, targets in the shadows. Hit EVERYTHING else. THe M-16 was not even close to being as accurate. I too am a gun toting, gun lover, hunter. Oh, BTY, I did MUCH better with 105mm on our M-60....LOL

Higene's Dilemma
The real problem for those of Higene's ilk is that in order to disarm the law-abiding gun owners of America, he needs to enlist the help of the very same kind of people that he wishes to disarm. Earth to Higene: many of the pro-gun posters have former or current military and/or law enforcement experience. When will this sink into your thick head? Why should I voluntarily disarm? What do you propose to do to enforce your vision, Chekist wannabe?

If it came down to a choice between complying with a mob of liberal metrosexuals waving regulations at me or defending against a mob of criminal looters after a disaster, I would chance the odds and keep my weapons. I already have PVC pipe, cheap giveaway guns and acres of woods behind my house ready for your "sweep." What if there are more than a few hundred thousand more folks like me?

Yes the gun grabbers say they can get
all 300 million guns but we can't deport 10 million illegal migrants.

LOVE IT!
The TRUTH has been clear to those of us on this side of the GUN ISSUE but, for the WING NUT'S on the other side this column won't matter. They will not let the TRUTH AND FACT'S GET IN THE WAY OF HOW THEY FEEL!!!! Remember Barry Obama say's we need JUDGES and more important Supreme Court Judges must FEEL and UNDERSTAND the EMOTIONS of the CASE BEFORE THEM!!!!!! Never mind the LAW or the BILL OF RIGHTS it is all about how they feel!!!!

So having said all of that this is why McShame will get my vote and this is the ONLY REASON WHY! Let's PRAY that the DEMS don't gain any more seat's in either house and Barry Obama get's the WHITE HOUSE!!!!!

Mr. Elder thank you for the CLEAR TO THE POINT NO EMOTIONS COLUMN!!!

Kimbergirl
Kudos to you.
I was trying to think of a cogent, clever way to respond to HiGene's question. I see you did that. And you did it extremely well.
Perfectly done.

alopekos teumesios
The most difficult parts of firearms to manufacture are Investment Cast today.
YEP! Just like a hobby machine shop, that's something you can do in your garage or "the shed out back".

It is possible to swiftly manufacture "Zip Guns" ranging from .22 RF to 12ga.

AND; Did you hear any fireworks on the 4th?
In some areas, firecrackers have been outlawed for over ¹/² a CENTURY!
Arms & munitions are far more lucrative to smuggle than firecrackers.

THE point is - Elder has no credibility
Elder's statistics are all over the place and defy common sense and the truth. Elder would have us believe that about 1/2 - 1 in 2 homes in the U.K. is broken into while it's occupied EVERY YEAR. To quote Elder "ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS NONSENSE!"

Today, 7/10, Elder spent a lot of time talking about Fox News/O'Reilly playing Jesse Jackson's comment about cutting Obama's nuts off. He also spent much time on O'Reilly saying that they had more incriminating tapes of Jackson saying bad things but that he was not going to play them because they weren't "relevant". Elder said "So Jackson saying that he's going to cut Obama's nuts off is NOT relevant?" WTF?!?! O'Reilly played that tape! Is it asking too much that you at least sound like you know what you're talking about, Mr Elder?

the supreme court did not go far enough.
The supreme court ruling in Heller did not go far enough. Taking original intent into account, the term "well regulated" meant "well disciplined" in the 18th century.
Ruth Bader Ginsburg and the three others that voted against Heller should be impeached for failure to uphold their oath of office. ?Justice? Ginsburg commented that her rulings would be influenced by "international law".

Ummmmm ....Mike?
The 50% staistic is the number of burglaries which are HOT burglaries; in other words 1/2 of all burglaries in the UK are HOT burglaries, not that 1/2 of all houses in the UK are burglarized.

Knowing that you cannot read a simple sentence in English and realize the plain meaning, I know I'm setting myself up for some serious humor when I ask:

Just what does Larry Elder's conversations concerning a crude statement by a particular person have to do with either statistics, gun control, or the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States?

alopekos teumesios
Re: Hygienes Dilemma:
No. Higenes Dilemma is that SHE is in desperate need of a good roll in the hay. SHE probably hasn’t gotten laid in years, and needs to take the edge off. My advice to all is to IGNORE HER while she’s in this condition. But here’s some info for the rest of you re 2nd Amd litigation / Ammo.

A class action suit, heard by the CA Supreme Court, was filed with the support of the CA Rifle and Pistol Owners Association against the City of Santa Monica, (no surprise here), arguing against the city ban on ammunition sale. The Supreme court held that this was an end run around a previously failed attempt by San Francisco in 1986, to ban hand guns. That Ammunition, being a necessary and integral component of a fire arm: attempts to infringe upon its availability is in violation of State and Federal law. Note: Former CA Attorney Bill Lockyer, a Liberal, wrote concurring opinion.

Other case precedent: US Supreme Court. Planned Parenthood v Pennsylvania. Wherein it was ruled: An attempt to restrict access to contraceptives is an infringement on reproductive rights, as condoms are for many people, a necessary and integral component of these rights.

CA Supreme Court: Class action case against Los Angeles: In a similar vein: Where in it was argued by a Pro Life group than denial of access to an abortion clinic was Not an attempt to deny reproductive rights. The court found that any obstruction, even though indirect, is an infringement.

Note: Such parallels, regarding indirect infringement, though addressing different themes, are viewed from the same prospective by the courts. It’s for this reason that no gun ban groups, including the Brady Campaign, will touch the Ammo Ban issue. It’s proven a total LOSER based on these parallel rulings. But if frustrated idiots like Higene wish to beat this dead horse, I encourage them to waste their time and money. LMAO

TeamNRA
TeamNRA said " There has never been any kind of credible link established between gun control and crime reduction... Never !! "

Not true. There are SEVERAL studies that establish 'gun control' and 'crime reduction' are INVERSELY correlated. For the non-statisticians, that means gun control INCREASES crime.

That's a Relief
Ragner,

The last thing I want to see is panic speculation in ammunition, due to some happy hammers causing trouble. It's bad enough that .308 Win is running about $0.85/rd already.

According to Rebecca Peters
All the reports of increased burglaries and other crimes in England and Oz are fantasies of the NRA. Would Rebecca lie? Just because she went from being a mouthpiece for IANSA to whoring for yet another socialist gun grabbing rabble we can't draw conclusions.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Higene -- STILL won't learn
"But all those statistics are meaningless to people who don't (and won't) own a gun."

Sounds like a personal problem to me.


"some for the very practical reason that they don't know how to use them and don't care to learn,"

Willful ignorance -- again, a personal problem.



"and also know quite well that the statistics for gun injury and death are much higher for homes with guns than homes without them"

Which are easily mitigated with education and training. How much higher do you suppose the death rate from automobile accidents would be if we didn't have any driver training?

Again -- a personal problem.



"Look, it is incumbent on YOU gun worshipers to do something to reduce the incidence of gun violence in this country,"

Why? Because of YOUR personal problems?



"So, if you don't like my suggestion to control access to the ammo, it might be a good idea to come up with a solution of your own"

We already have, and you won't implement those solutions either.

Higene...
"and also know quite well that the statistics for gun injury and death are much higher for homes with guns than homes without them"

Well.....DUH. I'd say its a safe bet that statistics for automobile injury and death is considerably higher among folks who own cars.

"It won't take too many more incidents like Columbine, or Wacko, or drive-by killings of innocent bystanders"

Wackos can also kill you with chainsaws, hammers or ink pens. We goin' after Craftsman and Bic next?

"September 11 launched this country on a multi-trillion dollar war against Islamic terrorism that has caused untold destruction and loss of life with no end in sight. If that kind of fury starts moving in your direction you'd better watch out."

If by "fury" you mean a radical islamist, he'd best be the one to watch out...i am well armed.

"Also, it is likely that us liberals will control at least two, and maybe all three, branches of government for the next four years, and maybe more - maybe eight or ten years before the political pendulum swings back your way."

Americans are not that stupid. You just wish we were.

"come up with a solution of your own before you have one imposed on you that you will like a lot less."

We have a solution in place...good guys get guns too.
As for disarming 80 to 100 million people...not ever going to happen. A very large percentage of those gun owners are the very enforcement officers (private & military) who would be called upon to do the disarming. Get the picture?

No?

I have several friends in law enforcement... to a man they have said they would take off their uniforms and resign before they would ever enforce a government ordered ban/confiscation of firearms.

Get it now?

You are welcome to try to take my firearms...anytime.


oops...sorry higene...
I misunderstood....."Whacko" was supposed to be Waco.

My point is still un-assailable.

What is the connection between Waco and Columbine?

Waco was a government attack on private citizens.

While, at Columbine, if just 1 teacher had been in possession of a (legal)firearm, there could possibly have been lives saved.

Are you anti-saving lives?


TYPICAL LIBERAL
quoth Higene: "But all those statistics are meaningless to people who don't (and won't) own a gun."

Heh, typical. In failing to substantiate his(her?) opinion with facts, he(she?) categorically declares that facts have no meaning.

However: those statistics DO have meaning, EVEN to people who don't own guns.

Such as the statistics where a burglar in the US has about the same chance of being shot by his intended victim as he has of being arrested. If it can be said that the chances of being arrested have a deterrent effect, then certainly the chances of being shot are an equal or greater deterrent. No expensive lawyer is going to bring you back to life!

That means that MOST burglars in the US will NOT break into your house if they think you're home.

Whereas, in the UK, they generally don't care. Not mentioned in Elder's column, this is particularly true in neighborhoods with a large elderly population. The burglars know that their victims not only have no guns, they're also old and weak. Easy targets.

In the US, you don't need youthful vigor to pull a trigger.

Don't want to have a gun? Fine, don't have one. But be thankful that the odds are that half of your surrounding neighbors DO have a gun, and the burglars don't KNOW you don't have a gun.

So yes, those statistics ARE meaningful, even if you don't (or won't) own a gun. Even if you choose to disregard them simply because you find them uncomfortable.

Higene
Got another stat for you that you will like. The number of people killed by baseball bats is higher in homes that own them than those that don't. We better go after all those baseball bats. There's the danger.... you can't hear them when they go off and you don't have to reload!!! Get em' off the streets!!!!

tj -- irt Going Far Enough
quoth tj:
"the supreme court did not go far enough."

You know what?

In this environment we live in now where virtually ALL of our rights are under constant attack -- where they are slowly but steadily being chipped away -- with wonderful people like Higene cheering them on --

-- and considering this to be a 5-4 decision, we almost didn't even get THIS much --

I'm happy to take any small victory we can get.

Ragner Daneskjold
Higene is not a he or she, it is Gay.
Higene has stated on another thread that Jesus Christ is gay!

Higene has quoted FICTIONAL statistics without providing a source.

Every statistic Higene quoted is debunked right here.
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=209

Higene is insane and lives in a fantasy world of it's own dementia.


Oh, And Higene
I wouldn't bet the farm on the libbers controlling two or three houses. They have congress and it's approval rating is down to like 8% And those are only the died in the wool fanatics. I'd like to see some verse in the Bible that says Jesus christ was gay. I knew I was posting a libber but I didn't know I was posting to chiqueta bananna played by the fruit cake.

If ever you'd been shot, you'd hate guns
"If ever you'd been shot, you'd hate guns," is a plaint one hears every once-in-a-while, no?

The next time you hear it, you might refer the complainer to me.

During the Viet-Nam War more than 303,000 American G.I.s were WIA, roughly half of whom required some hospitalization. Approximately 7 3/4% of our WIAs, or 23,214 of us, including Yours truly, were determined to be 100% disabled due to our wounds incurred. My wounds derived from AK fire during a firefight with North Viet infantry.

If anyone were to fear & hate firearms, shouldn't it be one such as I, made severely crippled by gunfire? Yet it's not so. In fact, I'm quite fond of firearms & own several of them.

Troop D, 1st sqdn, 4th Cavalry, 1st Infantry Division, Viet-Nam, 1966-7; Troop B, 2nd sqdn, 17th Cavalry, 101st Airborne, Viet-Nam, 1969-70.

Higene -- Guns on the Street
"It's the guns on the street that bother me. And those are the ones that we've got to get rid of."

You have yet to present a rational plan to "get rid of" the "guns on the street" that doesn't also hamper the ability of honest, law-abiding citizens from getting guns for the home, or whatever lawful purpose they want.

Tell you what, I'll give you one of my plans to use. No charge.

LEGALIZE DRUGS.

Higene
Certainly there will be fewer firearms deaths in homes without firearms.
IF your assumptions were correct, there would be NO firearms deaths in homes where no firearms are owned.
YOUR STATISTICS INCLUDE SUICIDES and even felons shot by police.
Liberals are well noted for INVENTING and falsely compiling firearms statistics.
The NRA keeps very accurate statistics recorded directly from the FBI Unified Crime Report.
Gunophobes have been caught quoting statistics on subjects the FBI does not even keep records on!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And now for the joke!
There is an old Navy saying;
"There will always be some sh!tbird who does not get the word".
Have you noticed any other Liberals here annoying gun owners?
Obama is trying to gain votes from the 68 million families of gun owners.
The word is;
"Do not anger the NRA or gun owners prior to the election".

You are totally incompetent on this subject anyway.

Still Typical
quoth Higene: "Statistics aside, gun deaths and injuries are bound to be lower in households without guns. This is simple logic more than it is statistics,"

Heh heh heh!

What'd I tell you? Typical!

The statistics don't support the position, so ignore them!

Larry Elder has already presented most of the statistics you'll need. Ok, yes, some people are going to be injured or killed if there's a gun in the home. Did anybody ever say otherwise?

As has already been mentioned: your chances of having automobile accidents drop precipitously when you give up your car and never drive. So therefore what? Eliminate automobiles? Register gasoline? Come on.

With anything, ANYthing, EVERYTHING, you have to balance the good with the bad. All you've been doing has been harping on the bad. YES, right, WE KNOW, sometimes bad things happen with guns. Sometimes bad things happen with cars.

The point is, IT'S BALANCED OUT BY THE GOOD THINGS.

Right, 30,000 people are dead from gun violence, including homicides, accidents, and suicides. How many HUNDREDS of thousands or MILLIONS of people are ALIVE from gun PROTECTION?

Higene
Guns on the street?
They are carrying ILLEGAL right now!
Most are in a prohibited classification and can't buy a firearm legally.
Murder is illegal.
Robbery is illegal.
They are already ignoring many of our 22,000+ anti-gun laws.

ARE YOU SO STUPID YOU THINK THEY WILL OBEY SOME NEW LAW?

Only honest gun owners obey gun laws.
Only honest gun owners are harmed by gun laws.
Every gun in the hands of an honest person makes every home a little safer by increasing the odds against criminals.

The extra crime in areas with opressive anti- gun laws are caused by gunophobes like you.
YOU are directly responsible for those murders because you helped make them possible.
Some boy is without a dad because of YOU! Some woman lost a son or husband, because of YOU!

MD/MG
most of the gentlemen here will disagree with me, but i am 60 years old and a retired police officer. i will give you an idea for a weapon perfect for the slightly smaller hands of a lady. i used a browning 9mm for all my years as a police officer. i love a 44mag, but not for duty. the weapon is too heavy and i have to concentrate on balance. the 9mm is perfect and leaves all my concentration for my target. no matter what you choose, practice, practice, practice and be safe. my home is protected by mr. browning and his 14 partners and mr. colt and his 5 sisters, and of course ME. no one will ever grab my guns, of that i assure you.

The reason!
Just like all predators, criminals tend to gather and prosper wherever easy prey is abundant. Easy human prey was not abundant in America prior to the epidemic of anti-gun laws that disarmed many honest citizens. When men often went armed our parks, highways, city streets and homes were safe.
Your grandmother could safely go for a cool evening stroll, your daughter could sleep safely with a bedroom window open to catch a cool breeze, people left homes unlocked and keys in cars, bank robbery and murder were so rare they made Coast to Coast headline news. Only cowards and criminals feared guns in the hands of honest men.

Today, after 22,000+ anti-gun laws have disarmed only honest citizens we have localities where only criminals own firearms and protecting your home and family is now unlawful. If you left your home unlocked you would be lucky to still have wall paper when you returned. Bank robbery & murder are so common they barely make page 3 of local papers. If your grandmother went for a cool evening stroll you would expect to find her in the city morgue and if your daughter failed to lock a window at night she might get her picture on milk cartons.
___________Continued__________________

Second part of Reason
Police can't prevent crime and Courts have ruled Police have no obligation to protect anyone. Police arrive after the fact and fill out forms. Only someone at the scene, at the time and armed can prevent a crime from happening. Otherwise you pay the price for being a helpless victim.
Home Invaders often rape and torture a family to discover where valuables are located without bothering to search. Care to guess when they are certain they have everything of value and no one is holding something back?

Several States have removed restrictions on private firearms owners and been rewarded with drastic reductions in violent crime, safer streets and neighborhoods.
This proves beyond any doubt that presumptuous anti-gun laws based upon some coward's aversion to firearms actually create criminals by providing easy victims.
The people responsible for anti-gun laws are responsible for every one of the additional crimes that result. They are just as guilty as if they helped to hold a girl who is being raped or pulled the trigger to shoot a store clerk because they increased the number of times such criminal incidents occur. Increased crime raises taxes & insurance rates, escalates inflation and causes fear of crime to permeate our cities.
For today's excessive crime you can blame Gunophobes who disarm honest citizens.

left angle
if i read right, you are curious as to the need for firearms other than self defense and hunting. well, i can answer that one. since i was in my early 20's i did target shooting with a handgun. like any sport, there is great satisfaction in winning that trophy. i shot trap and did competition with a rifle.. i admit, i don't like rifles, but adore handguns and shotguns. they can be a sport just like chess, baseball, football, etc. i love my guns and am proud of the trophies i won. i went on to become a police officer and now am a rancher in my retirement. guns are still very much a part of my life. treated right, they are fun to a lot of us. many gun clubs have "shoot don't shoots" and it is just competition. they are the same courses we police officers have to do. the "sport" teaches usage and gun safety. what more can i say. i LOVE em.

hygiene
come on guy, take my ammo.. i will just go out to the shed and make more. don't need the stores for ammo. got plenty of powder on hand.. goood grief, get a life.. no one is going to take my guns or ammo and i bet i can speak for many thousands out there. all i can do is say again, 'COME ON"

Jana Banana
YOU ROCK GIRL!!!!

maggie
Your posts have been a pleasure to read.
I hope to see you at TH often.

Myopine
why thanks.. i love reading all the opinions. i am afraid i am very stubborn and opinionated for an old lady of 60. I appreciate the compliment. by the way, i was one of those law enforcement officers that would never be involved in confiscating firearms from the public. i was so glad we finally became civilized in texas with the concealed handgun law. we, as police officers well knew our jobs would be easier. crime would drop. we see that sort of thing everyday while the nay criers don't. the bad guys should be afraid.. very afraid.

terrible article
While the article is well written and cites fine a credible sources, it completely misses the point. The title "Why so we 'keep and bear arms'" led me to believe the author would discuss the issue that we have guns in order to defend ourselves in case of national emergency or if our own government gets out of hand. Like the battle of lexington and concord when our current government attempted to seize ammunitions, the Americans were able to defend this injustice. The 2nd amendment would be useful in cases like the warsaw ghetto uprising during the Holocaust. The 2nd amendment is to protect against injustice from abroad and at home, not mainly to defend against a home robbery, please see the first clause of the 2nd amendment.

MyOpine
Only honest gun owners obey gun laws.
Only honest gun owners are harmed by gun laws.
Every gun in the hands of an honest person makes every home a little safer by increasing the odds against criminals.
****

How true. Unless the honest person happens to
be drunk. Unless the honest person happens to
be paranoid. Unless the honest person can't
wait to kill someone.

Let me explain that last statement. On the day
the Supreme Court re-affirmed the right of people to own guns, a court case had just been
tossed out in Texas (it had to be Texas - why don't we give that state back to Mexico)in which
a guy called 911 stating that he saw a guy stealing (he believed) from his next door neighbor and he was going to shoot him. The guy at the other end - at 911 - begged him not
to do it. The POLICE WERE ON THE WAY. He said
this several times. The guy kept insisting that
he was going to shoot them. And he did. IN THE BACK. And within a couple of minutes the
police were there. Is anyone surprised that a Texas court says this was perfectly OK? Are you
suprised to hear that the guys he killed were
both Negros. Do you think that added to his
sense of righteous and his thrill? I do. Why
could he not wait to let the police do their job, which would include finding out if they were really robbing the place in the first place.

The guy was a nut case and he has a gun. He is
not alone.

Gun Ownership
For as long as I have lived (over 60 years),
people have had the right to own guns. Of
course, they have always had the right here in
the U.S., but I don't know what attitude and
obsessions there were about this before I was alive.

I have read by someone who studied this situation that it became an obsession about the
same time as the Civil Rights Movement got
serious and that he believed it was not a
co-incidence. When men were no longer in
control of their surroundings in the way they felt they should be, they looked to the gun for
their manhood.

I have no wish to comment on that. What I would
like to say is that recently some friends of
a friend came from France to the US and my
husband and I offered to show them some of the midwest.

They were flabbergasted and I was mortified that
within the space of two days, we found that
sign "No guns allowed" on the front door of two Presidential museums, one High School, and one entertainment theater.

What have we become!!! I feel as though I was
presenting to these lovely people a third world,
a backwards country. I wanted to cry.

MyOpine re: Higene is Gay
Yes. So I refer to him as SHE. Or as the Governator says, a Girly man. And you can relax about Girly Mans fantasy of litigation by groups like Brady to ban ammo. Aint gonna happen. Got a call today from Don Kates, NRA Senior Council. Brady has given up on such a ban. Interestingly enough, this decision wasn’t based on the ruling in CA re: the Santa Monica ammo ban, but at their attorneys recommendation regarding the US Supreme Court ruling on the Pennsylvania contraceptive ban. It was viewed as FAR MORE COMPELLING in its associated & parallel implications to similar infringement implications re: an ammo ban. So the Brady lawyers will concentrate on filing Amicus Curiae briefs on behalf of plaintiffs seeking to “Restrict” ammo sales through micro stamping, licensing and sales quantity limits, rather than seek outright bans. So due to rulings on Reproductive Rights, ammo bans are a DEAD ISSUE. Its an interesting twist. One thing we can say about Girly man: SHE knows NOTHING of legal issues. Not that I know that much. But I do have 2 advantages SHE lacks. I attended law school. But more important, I happen to know and have access to advice from Don Kates, one of the best 2nd Amd. attorneys in the country. Of course Libs will charge hes a stooge of the ultra right. WRONG! Surprising, Prof. Kates is VERY FAR LEFT. He litigates for the ACLU, is a former Associate of Attny. William Kunstler, the poster child of the Ultra Left, represents the US Civil Rights Commission, the Poverty Law Commission, the California Rural Assistance Center, and represents 2 bastion cities of Marxist Rule, Berkeley and San Francisco. So much for Libturds stereotyping NRA attorneys as Right Wing stooges.

It sure is nice to have such a legal BIG GUN as back up, though I admit its an unfair advantage.

So in conclusion re Higene: ONE MORE GUN GRABBER THOROUGHLY SHOT DOWN IN ROARING FLAMES. LMAO.

Virduddh re: “tears of embarrassment”
Regarding your tears of embarrassment for MY country.

If you’re that embarrassed by MY country, here’s a suggestion. Accompany your friends back to Socialist ruled France and STAY THERE. Real Americans will rejoice in your departure. Its obvious that in your 60 years you’ve learned nothing of this countries history or culture. That it embarrasses you indicates you do not deserve to remain here.
So....GET LOST!

viruddh -- Honest, Law-Abiding Citizens
quoth MyOpine:
"Only honest gun owners obey gun laws.
Only honest gun owners are harmed by gun laws.
Every gun in the hands of an honest person makes every home a little safer by increasing the odds against criminals."

quoth viruddh:
"How true. Unless the honest person happens to
be drunk. Unless the honest person happens to
be paranoid. Unless the honest person can't
wait to kill someone."

Well that's a bit of a paradox, isn't it?

How can it be that an honest, law-abiding person, JUST HAPPENS to "can't wait to kill someone?"

Sort of contradicts the terminology, don't you think?

Oh that's right, nevermind.

More Liberal Sob Stories
Oh boy, here we go:

quoth viruddh:
"On the day the Supreme Court re-affirmed the right of people to own guns, a court case had just been tossed out in Texas ... in which a guy called 911 stating that he saw a guy stealing (he believed) from his next door neighbor and he was going to shoot him."

Oh how HORRIBLE.

Let me ask something.

How many times do you suppose this happens in any given year? Take a guess. Look it up. Whatever, I don't care. How many?

10,000? 20,000? 30,000?

If I were to guess, I'd guess 1,000. Yes, only one thousand. Probably a lot less.

Now this *may* *be* quite a tragedy, even though the courts and the jury apparently didn't think so. I'm not quite ready to jump to the conclusion that you want us to jump to, that the ruling came down the way it did because Texans are bigoted. But let's just suppose it went down the way you want us to believe.

1,000 times per year.

10,000, 20,000, or even 30,000 times/year. (It can't be more than 30,000, because there are only 30,000 gun deaths/year, and 17,000 of those are suicides.)

You don't think that, maybe, just maybe, we could balance out these tragedies against the HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of people who SAVED SOMEONE'S LIFE with a gun? Perhaps MILLIONS? Certainly no less than 40,000.

Huh? Don't you think?

Oh, sorry, there I go again, nevermind.

Viruddh @ reply 135
Your facts are completely wrong about the Joe Horn case in Texas.

The two people Joe killed were illegal aliens (Hispanic, not "negroes")) who had just burglarized the house next door and were headed over to his house. After calling 911 and requesting police respond, Joe stepped outside to defend himself and his property (yeah, Viruddh, I know that's an incomprehensible concept to you). They weren't "shot in the back". Check the story out yourself.

All homicides in Texas are referred to a grand jury. Joe was "no billed" which means the grand jury felt that no crime had been committed.

Viruddh, you're simply another gun grabber that can't get the story straight. You have no rational reason to take law-abiding citizens guns away except to make yourself feel morally superior, which you are not.




ScooterNC writes
The fact will always be with us that a man with a gun will be feared by criminal and mischievous politican alike, they cannot have their way with someone willing to defend their position.

Criminal and mischievous politicain are redundant.

Higene
Turns out the perp is an immigrant, but a legal immigrant with his permanent residency papers, and a day job aside from his drug dealing, and a wife and two children of his own. Turns out there was a gang war going on at the time of the incident and the perp thought the car that turned into his street was trying to block his way so they could gun HIM down. So he opened fire first. Oops! Wrong guys! My bad! So, it turns out the perp did exactly what you all are saying the father and his sons should have done, which is to shoot first!

Typical liberal to confuse legitimate self defense with cold blooded murder. The issue wasn't the presence of guns but the presence of gangs. How about making gang memvers register themselves and leave law abiding gun owners the hell alone? How about we convince Janet Reno that gang members are just fringe Christians then turn her loose on them. The problem is criminals not guns.

viruddh writes:
They were flabbergasted and I was mortified that
within the space of two days, we found that
sign "No guns allowed" on the front door of two Presidential museums, one High School, and one entertainment theater.

What have we become!!! I feel as though I was
presenting to these lovely people a third world,
a backwards country. I wanted to cry.


How many French people set by and watched their property destroyed by muslim mobs two summers ago because they had no way to protect it? Every place where gun grabbers have had their way crimes against people have skyrocketed. Once the French are in the grips of muslim law who will they look to for salvation? Gun toting Americans of course.

Viruddh
So you were embarassed when your French friends saw signs indicating Americans are likely to have carry permits. I would have been proud. Gun-bearing Americans saved the oh-so-civilized French culture twice last century. Why do i think the French were delighted to see a couple million "Cowboys" kick Nazi butt, after their own leaders/army failed miserably. It is too late to realize a gun is useful when the crud hits the fan AFTER the crud hits the fan. Those who beat their guns into plows will plow for those who don't. Always have. Always will, at least until human nature changes. We won't see that.

Criminals by definition
Criminals by definition don't obey laws therfore gun control won't affect them. If passing a law stopped crime there would no drunk driving, no roberies, no rape, no child molestation. Sometimes I think libs believe if they repealed the law of gravity we would all float. In Brittian the cops don't even prosecute property crimes anymore. Is this where we are headed?

VIRUDDH
why you silly old woman.. don't be embarassed.. be proud. THIS silly old woman has and carries a gun. i like my hide the way the good Lord intended it to be. if your frenchies don't like it, send them packing back to france. the next time they get into trouble, tell then not to look to all us gun toten bad americans to pull their butts out of the fire. obsession? manhood? hahaha.. women have been carrying guns for centuries. they just don't show them as much. only thing we are obsessed with is our safety, cayote, snakes (on the ground and on two legs) and anything else that threatens us and ours. by the way, if you like the way the french are so well, i bet there are a lot of people that would contribute to your one way plane ticket. by the way, the civil right movement just took the guns out of the closet and into the living room where they were closer for the protection of the family. they have ALWAYS been there.

give texas back to mexico?VIRUDDH
you are a hoot lady. they keep trying to take it, but we "bigoted" texans just simply won't let them take it. get your facts straight. we are not allowed to just shoot people and get away with it. until you come on down and live here and find out first hand how we live, then don't comment on it in a derogatory manner. you don't know what you are talking about. and by the way, should you not have read all the posts, i am a retired police officer. thank God i had citizen assistance many times. saved my life once or twice. i am PROUD to be texan. i am proud to be a law abiding texan. texas laws are very strict. come on down, we will give you a very friendly TEXAS welcome.. right before we send you to france.

Maggie
Ilike your way of thinking lady. I'll even donate to the ticket fund. Thyink it'll work with all lefty thinkers? I'd DEFINATLY donate to that. I'll bet after a few years of France's type of gov. they'll be ready to come back. Probably sobbing!

eastlake joe
thank ya, thank ya...i have the utmost respect for a courageous, intelligent woman, but i am afraid there are too many, like vivurddh, that are just whimps.. wonder what she would do if someone invaded her home and threatened to kill her and hers. would be interesting to see if she changed her mind. maybe she would just let them do as they pleased. actually my respect is for all mankind that is willing to stand up for theirselves, their families, other humans and their rights. the rest are the whimpiest of animals that want everyone else to do it for them. no respect there for the cry babies. say boo and they run and hide. oh barf!!!
signed: PROUD TEXAS BIGOT

Roadkill58
If Waco still bothers you, why don’t you pretend it was a Mosque ant the people were Moslems.

Maggie re: Viruddh
You write ...“wonder what she would do if someone invaded her home and threatened to kill her and hers. Would be interesting to see if she changed her mind.”

“There’s a saying: “Many a Conservative is a former Lib who has been mugged.” Here’s how one former gun hating Lib was converted. My sister once lived in DC, but moved shortly she was violently attacked entering her home, then dragged inside, robbed, raped and her home vandalized. After the incident, she moved to predominantly White Chevy Chase MD, and bought a gun which she carries to work in DC, in defiance of DC gun laws, the strictest in the Nation. She’s now a Libertarian, mainly due to this parties Strong stand on 2nd Amd rights. I wonder if such an incident would have any effect on Viruddh? Likely NOT. A big difference between my sister and Viruddh is my sister has a PhD and an IQ well into the mid 100s. I suspect Viruddh is a HS drop out with an IQ in the comfortable room temp range. LOL

It worked for me
One of those Smith & Wesson moments when a gun and a smile will do more to terminate a violent attack than a smile alone, could be in your future. One was in my past and I have a future because I was carying at the time.

ragner daneskjold
oh i do hope your sister is all right now. that is a horrible experience for anyone. i am glad she changed her mind and now protects herself. that is the high IQ working. people with decent IQ's are willing to learn. to your sister i say
"you go girl". people with low IQ's just make silly comments about things they know nothing or little about. i feel sorry for viruddh. pity, pity..

THE point is - Elder lacks credibility
Elder's statistics are all over the place and defy common sense and the truth. 1 statistic in particular jumps out as utterly and grossly false. Elder would have us believe that about 1/2 - 1 in 2 homes in the U.K. is broken into while it's occupied EVERY YEAR. To quote Elder " What RIDICULOUS NONSENSE!" ALL domestic burglary in UK was about 2.5 % of households in 2006/07. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb1107.pdf

When 1 of the statistics Elder uses is so wrong and easily dismissed, all the statics are suspect and must be verified. Elder is proven not to be reliable w/ statistics.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."


Publik Skool, I Prezume
Mike,

Try reading it again, with feeling.

Elder states that 50% of burglaries are home invasions, done while the residents are at home. This statistic is compared to 10% of USA burglars invading homes while residents are there.

Class is over.

Earth 2 Mike, Earth 2 Mike, Come in Pls
"ALL domestic burglary in UK was about 2.5 % of households in 2006/07."

And HALF of THOSE were "hot burglaries," which IS what Elder SAID.

In other words (do the math) about 1.25% of households.

DavidMac
"Your facts are completely wrong about the Joe Horn case in Texas."

***
Maybe not completely accurate (I was sitting
in a hotel room in Kansas City when I saw the
news article, on 3 different stations). I wasn't taking notes, but what I am now finding on the web about it suggests that people are
still differing on the accuracy.

First of all, the guys may have been Hispanic
but they look black and in this case, if
prejudice plays a part in this it doesn't matter
which they were. I don't want to go through
the whole thing - there isn't enough room, but
the newscasters (at least one) said he shot them
in the back as they were running away from him
and I in the 3 websites I checked out tonight,
none mentioned one way or another.

My particular point is this: He was itching for
a fight. The men, at least when he called,
were not on his property, they were not threatening him, they were not in the process of
killing or raping anyone. They were burglarizing an empty house and this guy decided
that he "had the right to protect myself." Well, but he was not in danger physically nor was anyone else. The life of someone else was
not important (at least not these immigrants or
blacks or whatever they may be.) The dispatcher
begged him not to use the gun. But he did.
Another quote from our hero of the day: "I'm
not going to let them get away with this."
This was provided by a guy who called himself "Vigilante Justice." How appropriate.
Another quote: "They stole something, they got
a bag of stuff, I'm not going to let them get
away with this." Again, their lives were worth
less than a bag of stuff. Most policeman appreciate the fact that stealing is not a
CAPITAL offense. Idiots, apparently, do not.



DavidMac, again
Sorry, I just can't get you out of my mind.


"Viruddh, you're simply another gun grabber that can't get the story straight. You have no rational reason to take law-abiding citizens guns away except to make yourself feel morally superior, which you are not."

***

I am not a gun grabber. I remember the day when
gun ownership was a given but not an obsession.
I long for those days. As I said in my first post, I agree with the commentator who believes
that the obsession started with the Civil Rights
Movement when Straight White Men lost their
power over the rights of blacks and women and
their answer was to grab a gun to feel manly
again.


Second: You do not know whether I feel MORALLY
superior over this issue.

Third: You do not know IF I am morally superior.

Stick to the facts.

Unca Alby
"How many times do you suppose this happens in any given year? Take a guess. Look it up. Whatever, I don't care. How many?

10,000? 20,000? 30,000?

If I were to guess, I'd guess 1,000. Yes, only one thousand. Probably a lot less."

****

Wow, you are full of facts. Why don't YOU
look it up and then write again - or not.

Also I didn't SAY that Texans are bigoted. I
said something to affect that there was a very
good chance this particular Texan was.



Maggie
I have resisted writing because you irritate me
so much.


But I do have to say this. I am in my mid-sixties. I have never been raped, assaulted,
shot at or killed. I have had something stolen
on two occasions. One a CB and one a telephone,
both from locked cars, which is paritcularly
ironic because I never lock my house except
occasionally when I am on vacation. I live
in a very lovely home in a non-gated community and since it is in the country it is also fairly losely zoned. There is a significant mix in our neighborhood of three blocks.

I do not know of one person that I have known
personally who has ever been shot at or murdered.

I admit that I don't know about rapes because
people tend not to tell the world. But I did
have a sister who was raped - by her ex-boyfriend. If she had possessed a gun she wouldn't have brought it along or used it if she
had (according to her). More likely it would
have been used against her.

Another incidence was the mother-in-law of
a girl I knew in high school. I never knew the MIL myself. She was murdered
while she was working at midnight in a gas
station. A gun had been on the premise. Since it happened nearly 40 years ago there were no
cameras in place. All the police know is that
she was killed, the gun that was on the premises
at all times was gone as was all the money and
all the cigarettes and beer.

I would bet that my story is more common than your story (or what you imagine is happening
out there). I have asked so many people through
the years as this gun issue got crazier and
crazier. Virtually no one had a story that
was much different from mine.

But then, we are not from Texas. Maybe that is the difference.

Viruddh
Re: Her IRRELEVANT anecdotes about how it is where SHE lives.
Be Advised.
Any time someone says: “this is what it’s like where I live.... this is what MY friends tell me”, (or words to that effect), that person instantly loses ALL CREDIBILITY. This is because they’ve taken their experience, based on a LIMITED world view, and projected it, assuming it applies universally. This FALSE PROJECTION is further distorted by their personal agenda and prejudices, so obviously shown by you. So no matter what you say; NO ONE HERE BELIEVES YOU. Why you continue to rant and waste time on TH when it’s SOOOO obvious you have ZERO CREDIBILITY & ZEOR chance of convincing ANYONE, is a mystery. The rest of us occasionally spend time here exchanging ideas with those we RESPECT. But what do YOU attempt to accomplish, other than venting your disgust with our Nation and being ridiculed and denounced for the MISGUIDED FOOL you are?

viruddh -- "full of facts"
"Wow, you are full of facts. Why don't YOU
look it up and then write again - or not."

Thank you, as a matter of fact (pun), I AM.

My point (zerrrrrroooom! [flies overhead]) is that no matter how many times it happens, it's counter-balanced by the many more lives that are SAVED.

"Also I didn't SAY that Texans are bigoted."

Oh, how nice, you didn't "SAY" it -- then, in another posting, after ranting on and on about "your story", you state: "But then, we are not from Texas. Maybe that is the difference."

Uh huh.

Learn how to discourse logically!
Viruddh, hand wringing and primal scream are no substitute for provable facts and resources. Too bad for you OUR side has a 100% monopoly on both and all you have is anecdotal bilgewater, half-truths, distortions, bigotry and unfettered emotionalism. You are so pathetic I'd wish you'd just get lost but you are a perfect example of a whiny liberal loserbot.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

If I'd had a third barrel
I'd have use that one too. She's a pip.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

reply to MyOpine
I may be incorrect, but I think that you can carry openly without a permit in New Hampshire.I think that's probably what many NRA members and gun owners would like everywhere. So I'll ask:

Open invitation to NRA members: Would you prefer open carry/no permit, everywhere? And why?

CARRY. NO PERMIT REQUIRED.
I prefer carry, NO permit required, (as is the fact in NH), for adults whose background check does not preclude this Right. Whether open or concealed should be at ones option; though I prefer concealed, as I chose not to be a target. Tactical advantage lies with the element of Surprise. My reasoning for NO permit is that Im a Strict Constitutionalist. Permission constitutes INFRINGEMENT on the RIGHT to BEAR arms. This is why I carry without a permit.

Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.