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Thursday, April 17, 2008
Larry Elder :: Townhall.com Columnist
Obama is 'Bitterly' Out of Touch
by Larry Elder
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"Bitter," says Sen. Barack Obama, the man of hope and change, about those who live Pennsylvania, small towns and the Midwest.

"You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania," Barack Obama said two Sundays ago to the Brie-and-chardonnay crowd at a fundraiser in San Francisco, "and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years, and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate, and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

I spent nearly 20 years living in the Midwest. I attended law school in Michigan, and moved to and lived in Ohio for another 15 years. I married a woman from Menominee, a small town in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. Her strong, values-oriented, working-class parents produced a doctor and two computer engineers.

Yet people living on the East Coast and West Coast, and those with "superior education and breeding," often dismiss those living in the Midwestern and other states, especially small towns, as existing in "flyover country."

Where to begin with Obama's statement about bitterness?

"Cling" to guns? Never mind that many people in this country hunt, grow up in a "gun culture," and believe strongly that guns provide self-defense. This belief holds in both good times and bad -- not a result of some new phenomenon over "bitterness."

"Cling" to religion? Obama here insults all religious Americans, 80 to 90 percent by some polls. Obama apparently believes one embraces religion out of bitterness, not due to spirituality, values, belief in or the acceptance of and submission to a higher power. Perhaps this explains why Obama clung to the Trinity Church of Christ for 20 years, with its anti-Semitic, anti-white, anti-American, conspiracy-believing pastor, Jeremiah Wright. If Obama attended the church out of "bitterness," surely, his reasoning goes, others do so as well.

"Anti-immigrant sentiment"? Obama here makes no distinction between the legitimate resentment over illegal aliens versus legal immigrants. Obama ignores the cost to society and the damage to America's values as a result of our porous borders and our failure to reach a consensus on what to do about the presence of illegal aliens. A newly released study by Manhattan Institute adjunct fellow Edwin S. Rubenstein analyzed immigrants' fiscal impact on 15 federal agencies. Rubenstein, a noted economist, found that each immigrant costs taxpayers more than $9,000, or $36,000 for an immigrant household of four.

"Anti-trade sentiment"? Didn't Obama, too, criticize NAFTA for shipping jobs overseas? (Of course, Mexico, the United States and Canada are contiguous, with no "sea" between them. But never mind.) Obama says the "bitter" blame trade, but didn't Obama -- apparently insincerely -- promise to renegotiate NAFTA as a result of its alleged negative economic impact? He implicitly acknowledges the statement by a Canadian official, who said that an Obama campaign aide contacted him and labeled Obama's anti-trade remarks as "campaign rhetoric."

So, Obama considers small-town Pennsylvanians and Midwesterners stupid, irrational gun-toters, religious zealots, hicks lacking the sophistication, knowledge and worldliness possessed by him and his Harvard-trained wife, Michelle, who only recently became "really proud" of her country.

Obama, by the way, made his "bitter" analysis on a Sunday, but not until Friday did this become a major media story. Why so long? No doubt, the anti-Second Amendment, secular media -- to say nothing of those in attendance -- agreed with Obama's analysis of the unsophisticated little people. Obama is, therefore, "in touch."

But remember the recent Bush press conference, when Bush responded with skepticism about a reporter's prediction of impending $4-a-gallon gas? The next day, page A-1 in the Los Angeles Times: "$4-a-Gallon Gas? It's News To Bush; President's Surprise at the Idea Fuels a Sense That He's Out of Touch." But as to the newsworthiness of Obama's insult to Midwesterners -- it made pages A-13 and A-17, in the Los Angeles Times and The New York Times, respectively.

Here's the line. Obama insults the Midwest in particular and people of religion in general. Yet he remains in touch. President George W. Bush, because of skepticism of $4-a-gallon gas, becomes the poster boy of the inability to relate to the little guy.

So who's "bitterly" out of touch?

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About The Author
Larry Elder is a syndicated radio talk show host and best-selling author. His latest book, "What's Race Got to Do with It?" is available now.
 
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Out of touch
Robert is.

3wire -- patience
We should probably wait until *after* somebody posts something to offer criticisms of their postings!

Unca Alby
You apparently do not know Robert, aka Wobbie, etc. He is probably passed out now, after a hard day flying imaginary airplanes all over the globe. Research GunnyG's postings, or his website if you don't believe me. Wobbie is anit-matter in an intellectual sense and takes perverse pride at being the first poster on columns of commentators he does not like. That's why the taunt. So, I'll be patient. Watch, I'm going to be proved right soon enough.

Mr.Elder
You have pegged Obama just right.He cannot be candid about anything,lest we find out who he really is.

Little by little,he is being exposed.Every time he speaks,he must spend they next few days saying what he "really meant to say".The MSM have not helped uncover him.They've pretty much given him a pass.

He is like a pile of dung.The more you stir it the worse it stinks.I don't want to be downwind when it really hits the fan.

He almost makes Hillary look good....I did say A_L_M_O_S_T_.

Hope For America
I listened to Clarence Thomas this summer talk about his book "My Grandfathers Son" and himself to understand how he became a great American. It would be inspiring, no doubt, to hear more of the personal struggles of Larry Elder and also Thomas Sowell. When I compare these men to Obama it is easy to make the right choice and not support the self serving con-man.

Hope?
Unfortunately, none of these people are running for office.

Black bitterness won't go away.
Obama can't say what he and his wife want to say. "Damn a bunch of white folks!" That is why he can't make his words fit in. They are both doing white things and talking white talk and making white money but are ashamed of America and soak up bitter inaccurate verbage from a mis-guided preacher. You call this Presidential Timber?

Make him President and you will see.

Don Jones
MyManJohn.com

Obama my man.
Re. My Man 2:32---To put it another way, the Racist Problem in America resides primarily in the Urban Black Community.
But I'm still voting Hillybama--probably O'bama.

Mac the Knife is not only the Death of Reaganism, he is the slow poison of Socialism Lite that will kill America more surely.

Plus he's a lying back stabbing bastid and I wouldn't vote for him if you paid me a million.

Further, the moronic mythical moderate middle has gotten so stupid in this country they DESERVE Socialism Straight. Let em choke on it and puke it up. Reagan was elected only after Jimmy Carter showed America what happens when you vote the moronic mythical moderate middle.
They have been SO stupid lately they really really need the lesson again. LET em phuk themselves over--they DESERVE it.

To hell with the GOP to hell with McAin't, Obama gets my vote and may Americans suffer for their stupidity.

If you want Reagan Conservatism to live you BETTER stop McAin't!

the big mick

Obama was right on target.
Out of being bitter they cling to their religion, guns, church, antipathy toward immigrants, and anti trade sentiments. Thats true. Obama was talking about the voters of Pennsylvania. People vote their values. Who in the world votes without issues that have effected their lives. If this is the way the people of Pennsylvania feels, then guess how their going to vote. You can't tell me when voters go to the polls they don't take their religion, gun issues, antipathy toward immigrants, and anti trade issues with them. Sure they do. In the November elections which the Republicans lost to the Democrats, the voters took their frustrations and "bitterness" about the war in Iraq. As a result the Republicans lost the elections. The war in Iraq wasn't the only issue on the table which effected the outcome of the elections. The illegal immigrants became a hot topic also. So, you see Obama's comment was right on target how the people votes and not only the people of Pennsylvania. It seems Obamas comment puts him more in touch with the American people then Hillary. How can Americans vote without issues that have effected them. This is what Obama was stressing.

Projection
Elder notes Obama attends a church of Black Liberatin Theology for 20 years, likely out of bitterness. So he projects his motivation onto everyone else. He thinks i support the bill of rights out of bitterness, that i support conservatism out of bitterness. No wonder he is a racist. Bitterness motivates most racism, and clinging to the past, to past wrongs done to unfortunates now long dead, is as good a way to become bitter as any. The antidote for bitterness is to count your blessings. The prayer of St Frances of Assisi shows the path to happiness.

maverick
You are quite right voters take their opinions on issues to the voting booth. Where Obama is out of touch is his belief that people form their values out of bitterness. Go to church out of bitterness? He might. Most people don't.

Obama's not out of touch...
Obama is just pandering to his audience, and like Hillary, will say anything to get elected. I'd bet he could give a good speech at the NRA's national convention.

Obama's real problem is that he's out of substance. As near as I can tell, he doesn't stand for anything other than electability. What does it say about the sorry state of this country, and its people, when a marxist with no substance is the leading democratic contender for our country's highest office?

God help us.

Faith as a pathology
I'm a small town lady in Taxachusetts - yes, there are farms, family stores and Republicans in the land of the Kennedys! So, you don't need to hail from the 'fly-over' country to be amused by Obama's intellectual elitism.

Obama is very much in touch with his world - Ivy League, the Right (Wright?) Church and the political machine of Chicago. I'm from this Ivy League professional world myself. I know the elites well. Liberalism is the intellectual's religion. The only religion to which a 'thinking' person would subscribe. Attendance at the proper church is a nicety. It is a part of one's image.

Only problem is that some of us - even those of us with an Ivy League education! - actually cling to our faith. And as Savage99 so simply and accurately stated:

"Go to church out of bitterness? He might. Most people don't"

Indeed, faith is not a pathology. Finding God for my husband and me has been the most joyous and positive change we have made in our lives. I resent those who castigate people who have a faith. As a christian, I'm working on that resentment.

maverick
I think you are wrong about the last election. I, and all the conservatives I've talked to, are just disgusted at Republicans spending like drunken sailors, which is to say like Democrats. Newt and the gang had a good thing going with the Contract with America, and they blew it, big time blew it. That what we're pi$$ed off about, not killing the turbanned apes in Iraq.

Maverick
"You can't tell me when voters go to the polls they don't take their religion, gun issues, antipathy toward immigrants, and anti trade issues with them."

Of course you're right, but you're right about all voters...not just small town hicks who Obama was referring to. It was a profoundly elitist statement.

Yes, I am bitter that leftist judges and politicians have taken God out of schools, property rights and guns away from Americans, allowed a third-world invasion (please don't call them immigrants - they're illegal alien invaders) of my country and free speech. You bet your arse that I'm going to understand where the candidates stand on those issues before I vote. Does that make Obama's statement accurate? If I'm "clinging" to the constitution, then yes and if Obama has a problem with that, then he should move to a socialist country and run for President there, or he can always go to hell.


professsor obama
obama and elite liberal democrats. Looking once again at "ordinary, typical" Americans as if they're specimens under glass in a museum display...

Stupid IS as STUPID does
Bigmick writes at 3:06 am

"Obama gets my vote and may Americans suffer for their stupidity."

Is that just another way of agreeing with Jerry Wright when the Rev screeches -

"God D**n America! God D**n America!"

And wishing for "Americans to suffer" is a little of over the top unless of course you are a hardcore Leftist (though 'bigmick' claims to be a Reagan Conservative) whose own "stupidity" is the type that damages this Nation every single day.

For God And Country
W/O=

Maverick
Your whole post makes it obvious that you were never a star student when it comes to reading comprehension.

Go back and read the article again. Larry was not saying that people don’t vote their issues. Larry was simply saying that people who are religious and/or believe in the right to bear arms do not have those beliefs because they are bitter. They have those beliefs because wisdom has taught them that these issues are important.

Obama made it seem that only “bitter” people believe in God or the right to self defense.

By the way, your English composition skills are not that great either.

Savage99
Good morning!

As a Franciscan Catholic, I can second your 6:07AM post. The only bitterness in our household comes from our salad.

As for Mr. Obama, things do not look good for him in my corner of the world. Our neighbors, who were big supporters of his, have since changed their minds, and are instead writing in a name. The Obama picket sign they were proudly displaying on their lawn, left in the garbage truck this past Tuesday.

;-)

Obama's intellectual elitism.
Since Oboma beats us to ''Death " with his Obama's intellectual elitism.
He is actually showing us just how "STUPID"He is !
Facts : Chicago his own Big City home town is far worse in every important " Category " than any small town or in -Country area of Penn.
or The heart lands of America .
I don't care what area it is ..... His City is in the gutter .
1-babies having babies and Welfare is Higher in Chicago .
2- Crime and Murders : Chicago is higher .
3- Those who Graduate from High school or College :Chicago is in the pit's .
4- Drug's and Gangs : No contest
5- Quality of Life , Air and Environment :No Contest
6- Those with "Jobs" :MORE PEOPLE HAVE JOBS IN SMALL RUST BELT TOWNS .
7- It is true there are more Guns in small towns "But" They are used for Hunting game not People , Hold Up's or Drug Wars .
8- Oboma You , your Wife and Rev Wright are all "Stupid " to reality .

Larry
May I call you Larry, Mr. Elder?Thank you for putting Mr.Obama's comments, in it's original context.These are comments while absent of sensitivity,have in them opportunities of "GROWTH".The "Gun" issue is, and continues to be a "Guidepost" for republican campaigns.Once these "Guidepost" issues, are established in the campaign,then the themes are designed in such a way, as to push everything toward the "Guidepost".Mr.Obama knows this and this is where his intent rested.Religion and Guns in America need to be looked at and discussed.Having these same "Idiotic" topics dominate our existence is beyond "Stupid".I for one,don't care about Guns or Religion.You do you and I will do me,that's my position.If I need to take care of a problem,all the laws in the WORLD will not STOP ME...God or no God!

Obama's Trope
I think Barack Obama could make a fortune as a tight rope walker. Oh, wait a minute, he fell off that rope with his comments about the bitter gun lovers and churchgoers in middle America.

Maybe he could make a fortune as a rapper, after all most of the lyrics seem to have more to do with power and sexual fantasies than with reality.

I'll stick with Larry Elder and Sowell--they sing tunes of freedom, responsibility, and rationality.

Obama is in touch
with the extreme left of his party. Keeping company with so many radicals, he had no idea his words would raise such a fuss.

Remember that famous quote from a democrat aristocrat who said after the Reagan win, "I don't know anyone who voted for him."

Religion and Bitterness
The only connection religion has to bitterness I can see is in Rev Wright's church and Islam. The last time I checked it wasn't Catholics, Baptist, Hindus, Budist, Protestants, or wiccans who are blowing things up to spread the word of their god. It's MUSLIMS! GET IT MUSLIMS.

killer
Just what do you believe in? Who do you believe in? You seem to know exactly what Barack Hussein Obama thinks and means to say.Are you his alter-ego? Do you write his speeches?

Who or what is your God? Do you know,and can you tell us? We all have one. Our God tells others where our beliefs are.Where are yours?

Someone has finally pierced Obama's armor.He was even wounded last night. Can you believe it? By the left-wing news media,of all people.What is going on?

Last night Obama ,the Prince, got a kiss from ABC.The prince,as in the fairy tale of old,turned out to be a frog! Anyone for gigging today?

"Idiotic" Topics Strike Back
Killer: "Having these same "Idiotic" topics dominate our existence is beyond "Stupid".I for one,don't care about Guns or Religion.You do you and I will do me,that's my position.If I need to take care of a problem,all the laws in the WORLD will not STOP ME...God or no God!"

I think you just shot yourself in the foot with your incoherent language.

I've said from the beginning, Obama

isn't "articulate" as much as he's "slick" like Elmer Gantry!

To my way of thinking, HRC has done nothing good for this country. But by staying in the race, she's helped us find out exactly who REALLY Obama is.




Credibility......
...of Democrat politicians, let along those running for president, doesn't matter to those who want to live on the liberal plantation. The Dems promise a consequence-free life, and a huge public trough in which to feed.

Of course, they also promise to punish those who have worked hard and prospered.

Both Clinton and Obama could proclaim tomorrow that the earth is flat and they've personally seen it, and the votes would still flow toward them.

It's all about who gets what without working.

ANTI IMMIGRATATION IN FLYOVER TOWNS
Just another remark on how out of touch Obama and his ilk are about small town America. I am almost 70 and note that so many of the small towns in Mid America started out from "legal" immigrants working in steel mills, coal mines, farms, etc who got this country on its feet and supplied the wars that result in these unpatriotic malcontents being able to voice their discontent and confusion.

I am still unhappy to think the "Big Three" running for President is the best this great country can come with. Perhaps if Obama had come of normal 48 State stock, he would be more in touch.

I am also tired of being called irreligious, un-American, anti-immigrant because of my feelings on illegals. The problem and the word is ILLEGAL, not immigrants. You accusers have your "i" words mixed up

Rowry & Jerseyvet
Do you understand the greatness of the "Greek Tragedy"?The audience sees the truth,knowing they can never speak it.Macbeth says;"Life is a tail,told by an Idiot,filled with sound and fury, signifying NOTHING".My comments are factual,in that they are my own.Do I have to have a "God"?Do I have to share him or her with you?My answer,unlike that of Mr.Obama's, is quite simply.NO!!!

ANTI IMMIGRATATION IN FLYOVER TOWNS
Just another remark on how out of touch Obama and his ilk are about small town America. I am almost 70 and note that so many of the small towns in Mid America started out from "legal" immigrants working in steel mills, coal mines, farms, etc who got this country on its feet and supplied the wars that result in these unpatriotic malcontents being able to voice their discontent and confusion.

I am still unhappy to think the "Big Three" running for President is the best this great country can come with. Perhaps if Obama had come of normal 48 State stock, he would be more in touch.

I am also tired of being called irreligious, un-American, anti-immigrant because of my feelings on illegals. The problem and the word is ILLEGAL, not immigrants. You accusers have your "i" words mixed up

Thank You, Senators Obama and Clinton
We have much to be thankful for in these two fine politicians. Mostly, we need to thank each of them for exposing the seriously-flawed nature of the other. We also need to thank them for giving a fawning mainstream news media the opportunity to do the right thing---finally ask Barack Hussein Obama some questions that were at least of LITTLE difficult.

As a small town resident, a quiet town in which guns outnumber the citizens and most people go to church on Sunday, I can say that Bittergate might play well in San Francrisco, but here in flyover country---that Barack Hussein Obama needs to be elected---he alienate a lot of people. He's unelectable.

Hillary won't get the nomination---and there won't be a Dream Team. Hillary will continue to tarnish her socialist opponent. She and Billy will submarine Obama this fall. Although a delusion, she now has her eye on 2012. That brings up another thing we can thank her for---ensuring McCain's election.


killer
Thank you for your enlightening answer. We know what the Greek Tragedy of today is.The difference we see it,but we can talk about it...and will.

The trouble with 'idiots' is their limited thinking.You said, "life is a "TAIL". Did you mean tale? Just wondering.

You don't have to have a God,and certainly don't have to share Him or it. It really is of no consequence to me one way or the other.

I supposed, since you offered an opinion,you might have expected someone would counter it.It is sometimes hard to follow your reasoning.Maybe it's just me,though.

Elder is a shameless demagogue
One question for Larry Elder and any idiot who buys what this shameless demagogue is saying here: Why would Obama, a deeply religious man himself, demean religious people?

Can't you fools see how preposterous this whole attack on Obama is?
Don't you morons know that this is making you look stupid and out of touch? The proof is in the polls. Obama's lead is climbing! It's climbing because they see how unfair people like Larry Elder and Hannity are being to Obama.

John McCain the other day said that he admires professional atheletes more than anyone else. If the so-called leftwing ming media were half as cynical and manipulative as the right wing media, they would all be chanting in chorus: "Can you believe that John McCain admires high paid atheletes more than our brave men and women in uniform fighting for our freedoms?

That is identically as ridiculous as what Elder is saying.

Please folks, tell me that some of you are smart enough to see what's going on here. Please tell me that at least some of you disapprove of how desperate and low the Republican Party has become in their attacks on Obama.

Phylo out.



Proof that the right is stepping in it
Anybody want to know how well these cheapshots at Obama are working out? Try going to ABCs website and clicking on the debate coverage. Check out the 12500 comments left excoriating ABC for the way they attacked Obama.

Kepp it up Larry Elder, you are revealing yourselves for the shameless demagogues that you are!!

Phylo out.

Anne
The Liberal Morons are CRACKING UP :)! Check out Phylo De Moron's posts. Also, did you see where 75 year old John Murtha says 71 year old McAmnesty McMidget is TOO OLD to run for President?!?!?!

Liberals, getting dumber every day!

Killer
"Macbeth says;"Life is a tail,told by an Idiot,filled with sound and fury, signifying NOTHING"."

In the first place, MacBeth did not say life was a TAIL." He said it was a TALE. (Maybe your life is all about Tail, but there is a difference. Trust me on this.)

Just in case you snored through Shakespeare class, here is what MacBeth said, and remember he said this right after his wife -- who had urged him to execute the King [paging Hillary!] -- had committed suicide:

"To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

The benefit of a classical education is that one can still, 40 years later, recite Shakespearean soliloqies without having to look them up.

AND IN THE SECOND PLACE, SHAKESPEARE WAS NOT GREEK. If you want to know about Greek Tragedy, go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Tragedy. It's an interesting comparison with Shakespeare, but MacBeth is not a Greek Tragedy and wouldn't be even if Shakespeare had been Greek and lived 3,000 earlier than he did.

Larry Elder an American Hero
Larry, you are a True American Hero.


georgetwin
the libs always get their panties in a twist defending in indefensible. The twit philo seems to think that attacking conserv columnists at a site basically visited by conservs is a field ripe for conversion to the left. The real problem with the lefties coming here is there can't figure out why we can't see the error of our ways. They suffer from the delusion we operate in some type of intellectual fog. But I see that the tenor from the conservs has changed. Ridiculing the twits is a better approach. The problem is they can't realize they are the butt of all the jokes

Obama and William Ayers
When confronted about his friendship with William Ayers at the debate on Wed. night, Obama said, just because he lives in my block does not mean we are friends, I don't take ideas from him on a REGULAR bases. Well one idea would be one to many. Obama talks from both sides of his mouth and not quite sure what will come out.

Joy

AudiR10
Ha!

Excellent response to "killer", who is, by the way, a lawyer.

Probably explains why he might not know or admire Shakespeare, eh?

Phylo out of his mind: Ho Hum!


"Why would Obama, a deeply religious man himself, demean religious people?"

*** Fair question! But since we KNOW that he HAS demean religious people, one then MUST assume that Obama isn't all that religious himself!

*** Could it be that Obama went to that church because it the politically advantageous to do so? After all, slick willie was advised to, and joined the choir at a local church JUST to garner the votes of the religious folks in Ark.



"Can't you fools see how preposterous this whole attack on Obama is? Don't you morons know that this is making you look stupid and out of touch?'

*** Good, Phylo dough, typical liberal mind set! Everyone who doesn't agree with you MUST be a fool, moron, or stupid.

*** More limited liberal mentality. Obama SAID THE WORDS! And you just can't deal with it, so we're all fools, morons, and stupid. Kind of like algore presumptively calling the scientists who weren't buying into his gloBULL warming hoax as pseudo-scientists.


Phylo out of his mind... II
"The proof is in the polls. Obama's lead is climbing!"

*** Depends on the polls you're looking at... :-)

"It's climbing because they see how unfair people like Larry Elder and Hannity are being to Obama."

*** Right! Anyone who disagrees with Obama is unfair! Gottcha! :-) LOL

John McCain the other day said that he admires professional atheletes more than anyone else. If the so-called leftwing ming media were half as cynical and manipulative as the right wing media, they would all be chanting in chorus: "Can you believe that John McCain admires high paid atheletes more than our brave men and women in uniform fighting for our freedoms?

"Please tell me that at least some of you disapprove of how desperate and low the Republican Party has become in their attacks on Obama."

*** No can do! But, I can tell you that here on TH, we all pretty much disapprove of how desperate and low you and the limited liberals are... with just about everything...


P.S. Phylo... how about trying to use your spell check...

Phylo
I am really enjoying reading your explosive defense for the "empty suit" named Obama.

This guy is going down in flames as he rightly should.

If he were 100% white, there is no way this guy would have made it much further than Kucinich in the primaries - he just isn't qualified either by experience or wisdom.

But he appeals to you...

That says more about you than him.

Georgetwin: Spot on!

And phylo dough is living proof!



Phylo is out
phylo is out all right....out of his mind, out of good sense. How the hell does he KNOW oblama is a deeply religious man. The only thing I have heard about his religious beliefs came from the reverand WRONG.

WHY WE CLING TO OUR GUNS
As John Steinbeck once said:
The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.
1. Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
2. If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
3. I carry a gun cause a cop is too heavy.
4. When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.
5. A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him "Why do you carry a 45?" The Ranger responded, "Because they don't make a 46.
6. An armed man will kill an unarmed man with monotonous regularity.
7. The old sheriff was attending an awards dinner when a lady commented on his wearing his sidearm. "Sheriff, I see you have your pistol. Are you expecting trouble?" "No Ma'am. If I were expecting trouble, I would have brought my rifle."
8. Beware the man who only has one gun. HE PROBABLY KNOWS HOW TO USE IT!!!
But wait, there's more! I was once asked by a lady visiting if I had a gun in the house. I said I did. She said "Well I certainly hope it isn't loaded!" To which I said, of course it is loaded, can't work without bullets!" She then asked, "Are you that afraid of some one evil coming into your house?" My reply was, "No not at all. I am not afraid of the house catching fire either, but I have fire extinguishers around, and they are all loaded too." To which I'll add, having a gun in the house that isn't loaded is like having a car in the garage without gas in the tank. .....COLOSSUS

Phylo is out
Why would Osama Bin Laden, a deeply religious man
himself, demean religious people?

Mr Elders.....
My admiration and thanks for a well done article. Not only a great football player but, a logical thinker too. Hopefully there will be those who will read your words and start to think for themselves.

Poor Phylo...if you had another brain in your head it would rattle around like a B-B in a boxcar.

killer 9:34
Your post shows an interesting Freudian slip. In your attempt to quote, you say, "Life is a TAIL". It seems to be that way for people who resent people of faith. Stating that you don't have a god, much less my God, is a statement of faith on your part. It is a sad, gloomy, hopeless faith, nonetheless, which is explained in your slip.

Phylo-dough
I knew there was a reason you were so dogmatic.Lawyer,huh? Aren't their reputations somewhere below a used car salesman?

There are many 'religious people'who are fanatics,murderers,etc.Just who does Obama worship? Is it the same God of the Bible? Or is a God who must be black and must disdain white folk?

If you are so sure about Obama's path to the White House,why do you bother with the rest of us? You seem to really care what we say about him.You always have to say,'what he really meant'.

Obama is a radical,just like the unreverend Wright.Too bad for him,we found him out and we will NOT stay quiet about him.We are just getting warmed up !

still waiting
I'm still waiting for an INTELLIGENT response to my question: Why would Obama, a deeply religious man himself, demean religious people?

The only attempt at a response is to accuse Obama of lying about his faith. Only an ignorant right winger could possibly believe that. Here, check out this example of Obama's religious acumen. It's a speech he gave to Sojourner's.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid353515028?b ctid=416343938

Then try this as an interpretation of Obama's remarks: When times are tough, people find solace in the things they can count on, like religion and traditional pass-times like hunting.

If you can find it in your heart to give Obama even the slightest benefit of the doubt, I think even you can see that my interpretation of Obama's remarks is far more fair, and sensible than Larry Elder's.

Phylo out.

Primus
Go look at the polls.

Phylo
Phlo wrote: "I'm still waiting for an INTELLIGENT response to my question: Why would Obama, a deeply religious man himself, demean religious people?"
-------------------------------------------------
If you ever ask an intelligent question perhaps someone will answer.

killer
Your Shakespearean quote is not a sign of intellect. It is so often quoted that it falls into the realm of common knowledge. The "sound and fury" and "nothing"-ness on TH seems to always come from liberals. In the dark of the night, when you lay in your bed, do you spend time dreaming up these attacks in an attempt to calm your churning soul?

I think Obama already addressed black
bitterness:

"Segregated schools were, and are, inferior schools"

"[A history of] Legalized discrimination ... economic opportunity among black men ... the lack
of basic services in so many urban black
neighborhoods ... all helped create a cycle of
violence, blight and neglect that continue to haunt
us."

"That legacy of defeat was passed on to future generations – those young men and increasingly young women who we see standing on street corners or languishing in our prisons, without hope or prospects for the future. Even for those blacks who did make it, questions of race, and racism, continue to define their worldview in fundamental ways."

"That anger is not always productive; indeed, all too often it distracts attention from solving real problems; it keeps us from squarely facing our own complicity in our condition, and prevents the African-American community from forging the alliances it needs to bring about real change. But the anger is real; it is powerful; and to simply wish it away, to condemn it without understanding its roots, only serves to widen the chasm of misunderstanding that exists between the races."

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/03/18/text-of-obamas-spe ech-a-more-perfect-union/

Georgetwin
Regarding Murtha, how can one establish the difference between low intellect with total lack of common sense and senility? Murtha displays all and has from a much earlier age.

Audi
The "TAIL" was a joke,but you are American.American schools don't teach the inside of the "Classics".Where you in the audience the night of the "First" play?Do you know the mood of the People?The context of the language,is where the truth hides.You hit the "Target" that you erected,but not the one established by my argument.We all know about Shakespeare not being Greek.To mention that, is a disgrace to human debate,and belies any "Classical" education, that you may have or may have not received.40 years ago, appears to be a long time and it's showing.I am most certain,that you have more to "CLING" to ,in life, than just being able to remember a simple recitation.

The nearest
Obama is to being "deeply" religious, is he is drowning in Marxism!!!

Primus, Georgetwin
Ease up! I am a 'recovering lawyer' of 30+ years. We 'isn't' all 'stoopit'. I had to become a lawyer. I don't know enough about cars to sell them.

required geek
Ooooo. Good one. That hurt. Ouch.

Phylo duh
Oh, Phylo the frenchy is a lawyer? Did I hear right? It completely makes sense because both of the dems are, and they have the trial lawyer assoc in their pockets (or are the just glad to see us?). It brings back images of Edwards with his daintily-coifed hairdo ($400 a pop) explaining how he's working for the poor (living in the largest mansion in the county), was the "unfortunate" son of a millworker (because to be so must be ignoble), and how we should all end poverty (by redistribution). Not that you had any credibility in the past defnding the indefensible, frenchy, but now when people see your name a their eyes must glaze over...

Here's another question
Who's the phony on religion? Barack Obama, who has written and spoken frequently about faith, and who recently appeared on MSNBC for an hour and a half and answered very personal questions about his faith?

Or John McCain, who chickened out of the invitation to appear on MSNBC?

Phylo and Farrahkan
Why would Farrakhan a 'deeply religious' man want to destroy whites?

Perhaps Farrakhan will allow you and Mentor Wright to accompany him on his next visit to the "mother wheel".

don't worry, be happy
I wonder if it would have been alright after WWII, you know, afyter Hitler "retired", to remain in the Nazi party. Just wondering, obama...

Killer
You sound just like Obama trying to backtrack and explain all your 'misspeak'. Are you his fact-checker? Why don't you just say what you mean the first time?

Phylo and Farrakhan
Why would Obama "a deeply religious man" choose his Mentor Wright "a deeply religious man" who choose James Cone "a deeply religious man" and they award Louis Farrakhan "a deeply religious man".

Obama = guilty by association with these "deeply religious men" or whites are not guilty of association on slavery by ancestors.

Phylo do you believe whites should be publicly forgiven for sins of their fathers by Obama "a deeply religious man"?

Does Obama "a deeply religious man" believe in forgivness?

Phylo, you ignorant s-l-u-t
Phylo:
what I got out of the fact that the 2 clowns went to MSNBC was to wear their "religion" on their sleeve, you know, to prove to typical white gun toting small-town people that they too can seek solace from the evil Bush regime, in religion. I guess McCain doesn't have to talk about his religious beliefs, I mean HE isn't trying use religion as a life preserver for HIS sinking campaign. Besides he probaly can't stand the stench over at MSNBC (decaying creatures are usually unbearably putrid).

Phylo
Aren't the muslims all 'deeply religious'? Don't they want to destroy us if we don't adhere to their religion? Doesn't the Quran say we are 'infidels'and deserve to die? What kind of religion is filled with hate for others?


Religion does not mean squat,if it is a bad religion.Most of the worst despots in history were deeply religious.Look where it got them.

Phylo
Two comments:

The only "poll" that counts will be held on November 4th. If your main man Obama is even on the ticket by then - you will witness an Obama defeat reminiscent of Mondale's defeat in '84.

And your question on McCain's non-appearance on MSNBC - are you equally as curious as to why Obama won't appear on FoxNews?

Of course not - in your world, MSNBC is non-biased and FoxNews is conservative.

But - you are entertaining!

Zedsmom
Speaking of John Murtha,that old dog...to see what kind of person he is ,search.[...Murtha/Abscam..]it is a pretty long tape,but worth watching,if for nothing else but the language he uses.Makes John McCain sound like a Pastor...

rowley
Go look at this forty minute speech on faith and politics and then tell me that Obama is disdainful of religion or religious people.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid353515028?b ctid=416343938

Then maybe you'll realize that there is a grand canyon sized gap between what you're being sold by the right wing spinmasters and the actual Barack Obama.

Phylo out.

And why should
McCain go on MSNBC? No body would see him!!

It is Affirmative action
Aside from Marxim, what I see in the Obama's is an affirmative action mentality. While it is not all their fault, it does produce people who feel that they are not accountable with low self esteem. Another thing I have noticed about him is that he treats the thoughts and beliefs of others with scorn, HE DISMISSES AND RIDICULES THEM. The only unity he could stand would be a one party state with him as dictator.

Phylo out: You're confused!!!!


You've actually gotten a number of INTELLIGENT answers to your questions.....

The problem is, you don't LIKE the answers you're getting because they 1) blow away your agenda, and 2) show just out "out of touch you really are," so you ignore them as not being intelligent...



Now that I think of it, you're not just confused, you're bewildered as well...




rowly
I always believed it was a question of living one's faith that made the difference. If the oblahma was such a man of faith he wouldn't feel the need to profess what others hold to be private beliefs. Butr like everything else in the oblahma's life all must be scripted. But just as libs are constantly making public pronouncements as to what they believe and support we know from experience that posturing is no measure of what a person stand's for. Elitists think telling the rabble how to think and act on all issues is justified as they always know what is best for the country even though they, thank goodness, generally reside only on the coasts with their fellowt travelers

Obama "a deeply religious man"
Obama "a deeply religious man" could heal the racial gap if he campaigned on forgiveness towards whites for the sins of their white ancestors.

Obama "a deeply religious man" could heal the racial gap if he campaigned on the poison of black racism and separatism.

Obama "a deeply religious man" could heal the racial gap if he campaigned on a war against "race hustlers" like Sharpton, Jackson, Mentor Wright and Farrakhan.

Obama "a deeply religious man" could campaign on stopping the crime associated with liberalism and their solutions.

Obama "a deeply religious man" could campaign against killing the innocent for convenience.

Rookie Mistake
Obama forgot the first rule in politics: "The microphone is ALWAYS on." Even if he thought he was in a safe environment, he was clearly foolish to believe that his remarks to the wine and cheese crowd would not find their way into a detractor's camp and be put to good use. Just another hash mark in the negative column for Obama. Not sure whether it plays to Hillary's or McCain's favor, particularly in PA. And since I plan to vote Libertarian, I'm only enjoying the show.

BTW: For those who can't bring themselves to vote for one of the three contenders, Bob Barr has launched his campaign as a Libertarian. Here's a link if you want to check it out:

http://www.bobbarr2008.com/

Obama "a deeply religious man" II
Obama "a deeply religious man" could campaign against the evils of 'collectivism' and 'marxism' and the damage these evils have perpetrated on humanity.

Obama "a deeply religious man" could campaign against "stealing" from individuals and giving the ill gotten goods to others.

Obama "a deeply religious man" could campaign against the destruction of the black family perpetrated by Elitist Liberals.

Obama "a deeply religious man" could campaign against the destruction of education by the Liberal Elites and indoctrination.

Obama "a deeply religious man" could campaign against the assualt on marriage by sexual deviants.

Aaah yes, killer who refuses to use

the space bar because he writes for himself!

Good thing he really doesn't expect anyone else to read his left wing lunacy... because he has yet to make any sense...

I guess Dr. Rossiter is right when he says in his new book, "The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness" that liberalism is a mental disease.

That explains why some people who are "supposed" to be bright can still be liberal.

Mental "wellness" really has nothing to do with intelligence.


Phylo
you keep harping on how religious BO is. You point to all the WORDS he has spoken as proof of this yet you turn around and call the President a liar because of the words he speaks.

Now, I don't know about you but, I judge a person by his actions and his word. His Actions and his Words do NOT match. Therefore he is a liar. He is farrrr from religious. He believes religion is the opiate of the people. Nice!


Killer....all I can say is....Oy Vey! Sincerely...get help!

its interesting
despite the hateful posts about obama, since he made this remark his polls have gone up nationally, and in indiana and north carolina.

there is even one poll out this morning that puts him up in pennslyvanial.

i have family in small town illinois and they were not offended, here is why.

they live in a community of 1200 and have worked in a local factory for 25 years.
the corporation they worked for has decided to re-locate in another area so (according to my family) they can hire new employees at lower hourly wages.

these people were bush supporters who now are voting for obama.

Phylo
I do understand you have faith in Obama.That is your right.I also have the right to doubt him. Are you familiar with the so-called Rev.Jimmy Swaggert? What about the so-called Rev.Jim Bakker? They,too were 'deeply religious' men.Do I have faith in either of these men.An emphatic NO!!!

If,as you say,Obama is a deeply religious man...he is first,still a man.Men(and women)still sin.I believe his sin is he is a radical.Else,how could he surround himself with the people he does? Anyone can read a script about his religion and piety,but it means nothing if he does not live it.

A person's religion is his life and how he lives it. Not what he says he is,but who he really IS.There is a big difference.He cannot hide who he is.He CAN hide what he is,at least he can for a while.I'm afraid Obama's time may be up as far as fooling the people.

Obama is 'Bitterly' Out of Touch
From the beginning of the election, I could'nt imagine why the press kept saying the Clinton's were playing the race card. I looked up Obama's original statement in SF when I couldn't understand why people were so upset about what he had said. I have just read, for the second time, a writer stating the real issue touched on by Obama's statement. One other Town hall writer, Wir, stated: "...And my good friend, House Appropriations Committee Chairman, Dwight Evans was quoted by the Los Angeles Times accusing Obama of playing the race card, albeit in reverse. I considered voting for Obama but had thought he was not yet ready for so much responsibility. NOW IT APPEARS THE PRESS AND OTHER MEDIA WHO REPORT TO THE PUBLIC ACCEPT OBAMA'S EXPLANATION OF REV WRIGHT'S BIGOTED STATEMENTS AND TOTALLY IGNORE OBAMA'S OWN BIGOTED STATEMENTS.

ReligiousLib
Religious, if you want to read nice words about your hero,you need to go where you won't get a discouraging word.You won't find just nice words here.

Your name invokes the same religiousness as Obama's.Just a name.From the bitter things I have read from you,you have a problem with everyone who disagrees with you.

There's a great big difference in religion and Christianity.One is in the head;the other is from the heart.You can guess which is which.

Phylo is out
Would Obama ban the Constitution as a way to explain his frustration in changing times?

Good article--
Larry Elder always has good articles. They tell the facts.

Rowly
Rowly wrote: "There's a great big difference in religion and Christianity.One is in the head;the other is from the heart.You can guess which is which."

Good point!
-------------------------------------------------
I taught my daughters "Religion is mans way to God, Jesus is Gods' way to man."

BO and Marx
BO says the people cling to their religion because they are bitter about their economic condition.

Karl Marx said religion is the opiate of the masses.

I think it is like BO says "I didn't say it very well." BO is Wright Marx was much more to the point and both he and Marx enjoy cranialrectal inversion syndrom!

Phylo is a coward
When times get rough for Phylo,
Phylo gets going.

The oblahma
this fraud is the elitist dream come true. In the oblahma they see many things they relish. They have another elitist that shares their distain for the great unwashed. They can feel safe about inviting a person of color to their functions as he is someone of notierity so they can claim they have a black friend. In the oblahma the elitists can see a fellow traveler who will work to impliment their socialist agenda for america where they will be the ruling class that directs and guides those they feel are misguided and with the libs direction will come to realize what this country can be. And finally in the oblahma they can cleanse themselves of the guilt they feel over past generations of dims who forced slavery and segregation and jim crow on the noble blacks who will now rise to great glory and accomplishment under the wise rule and guidance of the elitist libs. The only losers will be the knuckledragger conservs who must be punished for not being as enlightened as their new elitist lib masters

rowly
no need to always take it to a personal level rowly, issues can be debated with out passing judgement on each other.

i have been a Christian for 50 years, most of which i attended american baptist churches although i now attend a methodist church.

you do not know my head or my heart only Jesus Christ my savior does.


wasn't looking for kind words about obama just was noting the disconnect between the opinions expressed here and the way obama has actually gained ground since his comments.

wildwest
Do you think,in the privacy of the voting booth,they will vote for him? Probably. The American haters will,for sure.Maybe some of the others will let a little fear creep in and knock some sense into them.

I cannot believe how so many 'big names' have been snookered by this charlatan.Surely,some of them are having second thoughts,but are too proud to admit they were wrong,but will not actually vote for him.

You have to be a little 'off' to vote Democrat,but even they,have various degrees of 'brain atrophy'.May the few who still think,prevail.


Hey Phylo, Come Quick!
I saw Obama's image on a dorito! It's a friggin miracle! He is everywhere!

"Obama's lead is climbing! It's climbing because they see how unfair people like Larry Elder and Hannity are being to Obama."

-It Climbs to the Heavens! No, Phylo, it doesn't. It's going down the proverbial toilet bowl.

"Please folks, tell me that some of you are smart enough to see what's going on here."

-Please Phylo and other ObamaPods, tell me at least you see him for what he is now after last night's debate, where ABC smacked him like a child.

"Please tell me that at least some of you disapprove of how desperate and low the Republican Party has become in their attacks on Obama."

-Hmm, didn't realize the republicans can make a man attend a racist church for 20 years. I didn't know the republicans can make an honest and pious man like Obama utter "Typical White People" and also the guns and religion gaffe. Did we have that far of a reach with his relationship with Ayers? Hmm, I don't think so.


Your puppy peed on his own carpet, and we never gave it any water to drink.

Shells in.



Obama is not ready for the big time
He is inexperienced, a do-nothing, a know-nothing, and a hater of people not like him.

How do we know he's deeply religious? Hillary claims to be deeply religious. So what.

Libs. and their social engineering have
ruined the pub. school system--that alone has been the burden of blacks and other minorities stuck with miserable schools in dreadful neighborhoods

embedded drugs in Am. culture no matter where you live

turned all sex into a sewer with 56 venereal diseases (remember when there were two?), a divorce rate of 50%, 1/4 of all young women of college age have an undiagnosed sexually transmitted disease(CDC), and produced a infertility time bomb in young couples who finally decide to have children in their late 30s or early 40s.

destroyed the black family through pernicious welfare ideas of the 60s that drove husbands and adult males out of households, whereupon they were then hit by the drug tidal wave and the sexual liberation whammy

Nothing Obama says shows he reconizes this negative philosophy and yet he proposes more programs to continue the above disasters and add more money to them.

He should be thrown back in the pond until he grows up.

retired geek
if as others have posted, phylo is a lawyer he never learned the art of making a skilled argument to win over jury. His arguments supporting the oblahma have failed to convince any to rush to the left with their support. My guess is that being an ambulance chaser only is successful when you can parade props to unfairly sway the jury. Citing the oblahma's writings and his statements about his religous beliefs as well as his empty message of hope and change without substance do not make him any more attractive. His desire to grow govt, vastly increase spending and taxes as well as promises to further enhance the failed entitlement programs makes the oblahma even less desirable as a candidate

religiouslib
Don't try to shame me..I have read a lot from you and have gotten in on some rough debates with you. You go to the jugular when you feel like it.You have been nice so far today.At least on this thread.


I was not judging you about your Christianity or lack of.It is none of my business.But Obama;s is my business.

I believe Obama lost some credibility with a lot of his supporters last night.The next few days will tell the tale.




Shells - 1:41 post
Concise, to the point, SLAM DUNK!

I wouldn't say that BHO peed on his own carpet, but he did step in a pile that he made himself. He just doesn't want us to notice the sight or the smell.

Duck In - for a minute

Shells
If you want to see how the vast majority of Americans feel about last night's debate, go to ABC news and look at the comments, all 15,000 of them. They are being pilloried for perpetuating right wing smears of Obama.

And on Drudge, the voting shows Obama crushed Hillary in the debate.

So I think your take on things is a little off.





Retired Geek
First of all good afternoon to you

"Phylo do you believe whites should be publicly forgiven for sins of their fathers by Obama "a deeply religious man"?

Does Obama "a deeply religious man" believe in forgivness?

Obama will only forgive white people for the sin of slavery only after he takes the money from white people and redistributes it to the decendents of slaves. It doesn't matter if your decendents were abolishinist or not or even if your ancestors were not even in this country. He will take what he wants regardless.

Phylo
I think a more accurate description for the reasons individuals are saying "not so nice things" about ABC is that they actually asked "tough" questions.

How dare they ask him questions that he might find difficult to answer? I assumed ABC was already in his pocket. I might have to re-think this position.

Phylo - you're funny in your devotion to BHO. I feel the same way about my wife and kids.

I hope you have a great day anyway.

Regards

wildwest
I have been trying to find what are the core values of Obama. I have only found two so far:

1) Racism
2) Collectivism


Rowely
I would have more respect for your opinion if you would at least look at the speech I posted. You people seem to be afraid to expose yourself to Obama's actual words. You prefer to cling to right wing spin masters like Larry Elder say about Obama.

The idea that Obama knows some people who considered radical would be relevant if there was even the slightest hint that Obama himself shared those radical opinions. But there isn't.

I challenge you to find the statement by Obama that reveals him to be the radical you assume he is. I guarantee you will not find it. You won't find it because it does not exist. All you can point to are other people who say he is disdainful or religion, or that he is anti-American, or that he is anti-white. He is NONE of these things! Anyone who says he is either extraordinarily ill-informed, or fantastically delusional.

Phylo out.

A man sees what he wants to see,
So Phylo and Killer and the rest of the Obama supporters do just that. You cannot reason with such liberals as these, if you can reason with any of them.

They have a desire for a one world socialist utopia. They refuse to back off and allow those of us who happen to like the Constitution and the rights it defines to live here in America.

As for Killer, he rejects any disagreement with him by trying to threaten people, hence the name. That has always been the fall back position of people without sufficient facts to support their point of view. Since he is British, I suspect, he cannot find anyone to argue with over there. They've all given in to that wonderful socialist European Union, the portent of Utopia to come.

In any case, Obama was talking about blacks who grab their guns, go to church, hate white people not like them and Hispanic immigrants because they are frustrated by their lack of success, wasn't he?

MN Duck
They weren't "tough" questions. They were questions based on baseless rightwing talking points. Yes, people in the country have been asking these questions, but only because spin monkeys like Hannity and Limbaugh have been filling American's heads with lies and innuendo about Obama.

The people who are outraged at ABC are the ones who aren't brainwashed idiots.

Try to find a statement by Obama himself that you believe reveals him to be anti-white, or anti-American, or disdainful of religion, or a commie.

Good luck duckie.

rowly
i am not trying to shame you rowly and yes i will debate vehemently but i don't insult or call names and have told you before to call me on it if you see me doing it.

actually i expect obama to lose in pennslyvania by about 8 but take n.carolina and then squeak by in indiana.

refugee writes
"Would Obama ban the Constitution as a way to explain his frustration in changing times?"

Probably not but I'm sure he can find some activist judges to do his bidding for him. Remember a liberal judge thinks that the Constitution is a living document. Therefore it can be changed on a whim without the consent of the people.

Sheepdog
Good afternoon to you. I received my first dog on my first birthday from my parents. I have had one or more dogs my entire life. I have learned to not trust anyone my dogs didn't trust.

I had a large rottweiler once who was the neigborhood kids play toy. They rode her like she was a horse, she pulled their wagons and run and played with them. Any adult that approached the kids she didn't know - she simply stood between the kids and the adult - if the adult advanced she showed the signs of impending combat.

The neighborhood parents loved and petted her - thay saw her as "the defender" of the neighborhood.
------------------------------------------------
Obama is the raker, taker much like Mentor Wright.

Joe Oliva
Oliva: So Phylo and Killer and the rest of the Obama supporters do just that. You cannot reason with such liberals as these, if you can reason with any of them.

Phylo: Try this for reasoning: Why would Obama, a deeply religious man, be disdainful of religion or religious people, as Larry Elder suggests?

Can you answer that question without dodging it?

Oliva: They have a desire for a one world socialist utopia.

Phylo: No we don't you moron.


Oliva: They refuse to back off and allow those of us who happen to like the Constitution and the rights it defines to live here in America.

Phylo: How about Bush walking all over the fourth amendment by illegally spying on Americans? How about the executive branch defying laws set by Congress? You guys have no problem with these flagrant violations of the Constitution, do you, you f'n hypocrite

Phylo out.




sheepdog
Rather than indulging your wild imagination about what Obama would do as president, why don't you try reading his book The Audacity of Hope. He speaks directly to the issue of a strict constructionist view of of the Constitution. You'll find it quite insightful.

Psst. Did you know that Scalia doesn't even think of himself as a strict constructionist? Shhhh. Don't tell anyone. The right wing spin monkeys would get very angry if anyone found out the truth about that.

Phylo out.

Phylo
How would you characterize the question to BHO about the capital gains tax? He couldn't give a straight answer.

I'm not outraged by ABC's questions, more like surprised. Do you infer then that I am a brainwashed idiot?

In regards to finding an actual statement by BHO, I must say I haven't researched it. My bad, and I take full responsibility. But his ACTIONS of staying at the same church where hatred was preached, by default, makes him guilty. By NOT removing himself, his wife and daughters, he gave his tacit approval to what was being said.

He is very good with words when it is scripted, not so much when he has to think on his feet. However, it is far easier to wade through the verbal BS and note his actions or lack thereof. Doing something, or NOT doing something sends a message as well.

Regards

BTW - It's Duck, as in U of O.

Phylo
You have to read Obama's own autobiography where he talks constantly about the way to handle typical white people, a phrase he uses repeatedly, and even applies to his own grandmother and mother.

Maybe it's not exactly screamingly radical but it's not what I would want a person who claims he's a unifier to be bragging about as he sits in the Oval Office.

Phylo and Obama
Obama "a deeply religious man" could heal the racial gap if he campaigned on forgiveness towards whites for the sins of their white ancestors.

Obama "a deeply religious man" could heal the racial gap if he campaigned on the poison of black racism and separatism.

Obama "a deeply religious man" could heal the racial gap if he campaigned on a war against "race hustlers" like Sharpton, Jackson, Mentor Wright and Farrakhan.

Obama "a deeply religious man" could campaign on stopping the crime associated with liberalism and their solutions.

Obama "a deeply religious man" could campaign against killing the innocent for convenience.

Phylo and Ignorance
Phylo argues from ignorance, with ignorance and by ignorance.

Phylo give me a statement that proves you are not ignorant?

Your arguments are akin to proving a "non hate crime".

Obama personifies elitism, I do not need a quote where he said "I am an elitest".

Good grief, Phylo
give it a rest. I have been gone for a while, only to come back and find you are still digging that hole to give the rest of us (lawyers) a bad name. Get rid of the shovel.

Stop the lame arguments. You try to influence Shells by telling her that her opinion is wrong as shown by polls and talking heads on TV. Hey! You don't get a unanimous verdict, Phylo! You don't even get a majority because you just don't get what you are arguing.

If you want to tell me about a poll, tell me the question asked, not just the answer given. Don't tell me who "won" the debate. That is a decision for me (or Shells) to make after watching it.

You have presented, I assume to the best of your ability, your direct and circumstantial evidence. Then, you claim a victory while the jury is out. For Democrats, the verdict comes in when a nominee is named. The verdict on the awards given comes after the final vote is tallyed in the general election.

Both Obama and Hillary are sad enough commentaries on the bar and truthfulness of lawyers. (Add Bill in there, too.) Why compound it?

Phylo writes
Phylo writes: "Phylo: Try this for reasoning: Why would Obama, a deeply religious man, be disdainful of religion or religious people, as Larry Elder suggests?"

"Can you answer that question without dodging it?"
-------------------------------------------------

Why doesn't Obama campaign on forgiveness to white people who are only guilty of past injustices because of the color of their skin?

Can you answer that question without dodging it?

Retired Geek
Speaking of dogs, I think you'll love this.

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/btw2004/articles/0726sheep.htm l



Phylo
I haven't had the time to read all of your posts, yet. You want someone to "take you on"? You cannot hold your argument without using 'f'n' and 'moron'? Clever man, you are!

Why do I not think that Barack Obama is a religious man?
First of all, I am not certain what "religion" he practices. His church belongs to The Church of Christ, a church and membership I respect. However, I find the sermons of Rev. Wright to be disturbingly off-course for that church or any Christian church. I am equally harsh on other ministers and/or priests who have been derelict in the preaching of the gospel in favor of preaching political agendas. I have always experienced minsters/priests who have been the calm in the eye of the storm, 9-11 for example. I don't see it as a Christian virtue for a minister to curse the people of a country in a time of shock, distress, and grief. So, what religion is Barack Obama and what religion does Reverend Wright preach?
Secondly, I find it beyond the pale of truthfulness to say you don't know what your minister says, yet you have called him your spiritual mentor. I have found the several reasons Sen. Obama has used for "not knowing" and/or separating himself from Rev. Wright most disingenuous. He did not have Rev. Wright give the prayer at his announcement for office because "he" (Wright) was "a little rough". (cont.)

Phylo
He may say that he's a strict constitutionalist, (actucally if he was one, he be considered a liberatarion instead of a liberal )but what he says and what he will do if elected are two different things. As I mentioned in my earlier post, liberal judges will do anything to circumvent the constitution. One only has to look at the decisions of the 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco the court who has had more appeals overturned by the Supreme Court than any other court.

sheep dog
Obama doesn't consider himself a strict constitutionalist. No one who knows wht they;re taking about would ever claim to be a strcit constitutionalist

And as far as liberals misinterpreting the Constitution, two words: Bush v Gore

Phylo -cont.
Therefore, Sen. Obama knew there was something about Rev. Wright that many people, whose votes he would seek, would find questionable and/or offensive. Now, in the intervening time, much has been revealed about Rev. Wright. You can't dispute what is on video unless you contend that it was a massive conspiracy theory, akin to that of the moon landing conspiracy.
Third, Sen. Obama finally said that he would have left the church had Rev. Wright not retired. To accept that as a meaningful gesture, I must assume that he either didn't know what happened in his church for over twenty years, he did not know the thoughts of his mentor who presided over his wedding and baptised his children, and who was named as one of Sen. Obama's advisors when Sen. Obama first let it be known that he was going to announce his entry into the race. This also would assume that Sen. Obama had no interaction with any of the other 8,000+ members who attended that same church and no one ever mentioned what was going on in services to him. I can accept that he was a church member in name only but for the mentoring, wedding, and baptisms.

So, no, I do not accept Sen. Obama as a religious man, a man of faith, or a truthful man.

I am off to take care of some other things but am willing to address your "issues" directly, one by one, if I have the time today and you wish to engage.

Well, ReligiousLib, your comments ...
about your family indicate quite a bit. From the intelligence level of your family, 1+1 must equal 4. So, business decides, after 25 years to move, and since a Republican is president, it must be the Republican party's fault that the business is moving. Riiiiight!

Somewhere up in that grey matter of yours, some synapses are misfiring (or not firing at all!). I'm guessing it's in the genes.

zedsmom
zedsmom wrote: I have always experienced minsters/priests who have been the calm in the eye of the storm, 9-11 for example. I don't see it as a Christian virtue for a minister to curse the people of a country in a time of shock, distress, and grief. So, what religion is Barack Obama and what religion does Reverend Wright preach?

Phylo: First of all, I rarely use harsh language, but some people deserve it. Secondly, this is from Dr. Wright's sermon on 9/11. Sounds like calm in the eye of the storm to me. I wonder if you agree.

Now, now. C'mon back to my question to the Lord, "What should our response be right now. In light of such an unthinkable act. I asked the Lord that question Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday.

I was stuck in Newark, New Jersey. No flights were leaving La Guardia, JFK, or Newark Airport. On the day tht the FAA opened up the airports to bring into the destinations of cities those flights that had been diverted because of the hijacking, a scare in New York close all three regional airports and I couldn't even get her for Mr. Radford's father's funeral. And I asked God, "What should our response be?

I saw pictures of the incredible. People jumping from the 110th floor; people jumping from the roof because the stair wells and elevators above the 89th floor were gone-- no more. People, jumping to a certain death; people holding hands jumping; people on fire jumping. [plaintiff high voice] And I asked the Lord, "What should our response be?" I read what the people of faith felt in 551BC. But this is a different time, this is a different enemy, a different world, a different terror. This is a different reality. What should our response be, and the Lord showed me three things. Let me share them with you quickly and I'm gonna leave you alone to think about the faith footnote.

to be continued

Bitter ???
So who is more bitter, the Rev (?) Wright or the good people in rural Penn??? This whole elitest crapola is really bothersome. I have to agree with Hillary on this one, We don't need a President who looks "down" on people..."

Obama better find some common sense and humility because this 'act' of his just isn't working!

to continue
Rev Wright's sermon on 9/11

Number one: The Lord showed me that this is a time for self-examination. [cheers] As I sat 900 miles away from my family and my community of faith, two months after my own father's death, God showed me that this was a time for me to examine my relationship with God. MY own relationship with God-- personal relationship with God.

I submit to you that it is the same for you. Folk flocked to the church in New Jersey last week, you know that foxhole-religion syndrome kicked in, that emergency chord religion, you know that little red box you pull in emergency? It showed up in full force. Folk who aint thought about coming to church in years, were in church last week. I heard that mid-week prayer services all over this country which are poorly attended fifty-one week a year were jam packed all over the nation the week of the hijacking the 52nd week. [inaudible]

But the Lord said, this aint the time for you to be examining other folks relationship this is a time of self examination. But the Lord said, "How is "our" relationship doing Jeremiah? How often do you talked to me personally, how often do you let me talk to you privately? How much time do you spend trying to get right with me, or do you spend all your time trying to get other folk right?

This is a time for me to examine my own relationship with God. Is it real or is it fake? Is it forever or is it for show? Is is something that you do for the sake of the public or is it something that you do for the sake of eternity? [voice rising] This is a time for me to examine my own, and a time for you to examine your own relationship with God -- self examination."


I wonder, does that fit your preconceived notions about Dr. Wright?







Phylo,
I am not a psychiatrist, but I will suggest these ideas, going on the assumption that Obama is a deeply religious man.

1. His religion is that of the black liberation ideology and he believes that "white" religions oppressed people of color.

2. His religious faith is tied to a "social gospel" theory that Christ was concerned about social justice. Since these Middle America people only respond to God because they are bitter about their own lot in life, they are not practicing the correct faith, i.e., they care not for anyone other than themselves.

3. He is so religious that he has become self-righteous. Anyone who is as righteous as he is should see the world from his elitist point of view.

4. He is the one who is bitter, so he accuses Middle Americans of bitterness to assuage his own guilt and in the process derides their religious beliefs as keeping them unaware.


5. All, or many, of his high placed friends belong to churches, so there must be different kinds of churches, the right ones and the wrong ones. The lowly folks of Middle America belong to the wrong ones, "those certain kinds" of churches. You know which ones they are; the ones where folks attend every Sunday, where they have Bible studies for the entire family, where many social activities are church sponsored, where the people can actually quote scripture accurately.

OK Phylo , now for President Bush. If you have been around TownHall for very long, and I know you have been, you should be aware of my website, joeolivaforpresident.org. If you ever checked it out you would know that I have no more respect for the GOP than I do for the Dems, they are both corrupt and should be replaced with independents who care about the Constitution and the preservation of freedom.

The politics of inclusion
Obama (or his advisers at any rate) know that he doesn't appeal in "fly-over country." Several elections have shown that small-town America doesn't like Democrats or liberals of any party. Small-town America also isn't much interested in sitting on its thumb waiting for someone in the world to bail them out when their jobs get shipped to China. They get angry about it, but they go out and get three jobs to replace the one good paying one and then they are too busy working to support their families to ruminate on feeling sorry for themselves, which is where bitterness comes from. Bitterness is a luxury allowed only to those who aren't too busy. That doesn't, as a rule, describe small-town Americans.

Obama's entire campaign has been about inclusion. His message has mostly been about how the country is filled with insular groups of bitter people who have been mistreated by white men, particularly conservatives. That plays well with those who are bitter and have lots of time to stoke their bitterness. It doesn't play well in Peoria. Unless, you can somehow get Pennsylvanians and Midwesterners to tap into their 1980s anger over their jobs being shipped to Canada and Mexico. Then maybe, maybe, they'll vote for the "inclusive" candidate.

Problem with that is -- as I said -- bitterness is the luxury of people who don't need to work for a living and that wouldn't describe small-town Americans. Instead of feeling included by Obama's remarks, these folks ended up feeling insulted by being called "rednecks" by an elitist.

It was not a good way to win an election. I think Obama has just gotten so used to the media treating him with kid-gloves that he let his mask slip. If we didn't know he was an elitist snob before, we know it now.

Zedsmom and MNDuck
Thank you, my highly cognitive friends^^

Phylo, actions speak louder ...
than words. I could illustrate that to you in a thousand different ways, but I hope you will at least admit that. That said, you're correct, you won't find a smoking gun statement by Obama that reveals him to be the radical we all believe him to be.

However, what we do have is a tapestry of evidence woven together over time that reveals EXACTLY who he is and what he believes. Things like statements in his books, comments he makes about his family, the church he attends, and the people he associates himself with. ALL these bits of evidence tell the TRUTH of his racial liberal bias.

And if all that wasn't enough, there is his voting record. He has been consistently labeled as the most liberal of all the liberal senators.

Now, you can continue to "accentuate the positive" (at least positive from your perspective) and blithely look past the negative, but you're trying persuade thinking people to not think. Sorry, uh-uh, ain't gonna happen. Take off your blindfold and see Medusa for all her ugly snakes. Just cause your blindness makes you think she's pretty doesn't make it so.

zed's mom
To continue. Like so many others, you seem to be convinced that Dr. Wright says anti-American things in every sermon he preaches, and therefore, cannot conceive of how someone could listen to that every week for twenty years. I've read several of his speeches and I can assure you that your view of Dr. Wright is a distorted one. In fact, the two statements I've heard are the only ones I've come across. 99% of what he says is about the bible, hope, self reliance, and developing a closer relationship with God.

Second. Have you considered that, while Dr. Wright says some controversial things, Obama is the kind of man who overlooks a person's shortcomings and tries to focus on the many positive things they bring to the table? Is it possible that he is practicing the Christian value of loving the sinner, while hating the sin?

Third. Have you considered that saying America's chickens are coming home to roost is a factual statement. 9/11 was what is called "blowback" for our foreign policy. Read Bin Laden's Fatwa's. He says very explicitly that 9/11 was retaliation for us having troops on Muslim land. The fact is, many people in the Arab world are extremely angry at the way we have propped up brutal dictators in the region and exploited their resources.

Fourth. Have you considered that it's legitimate for a black man of Dr. Wright's age, who lived threw the time of Jim Crow laws, to be angry at the American government for writing laws that systematically kept him and his relatives from pursuing life liberty and happiness?

Fifth. If you really want to know what Obama thinks about faith and politics see this forty minute speech he gave to Sojourners that I have linked to on this thread. You will see very clearly that his attitudes about faith bear ZERO resemblance to your distorted view of Dr. Wright's faith.

Phylo

Phylo
First you stumble, the you fall, Phylo.

You have made two assumptions with no foundation or hint at foundation.

First of all, I went back and researched Rev. Wright's sermons. The whole sermon after 9-11, not a piece that was used as a sound-bite, was one of several I found to read. You fail to give me credit. I have not made such assumptions as to you. I have simply stated the way I see Sen. Obama's religiosity. So, before falling all over yourself, don't make a false assumption. That is what you are accusing others here of doing.

Secondly, you can acknowledge how having Rev. Wright break one of the Ten Commandments by using the Lord's name in vain in a church service is disturbing to, and disagreeable with, Christians. I am not asking you to agree with the end-stage feeling but with the perspective a Christian has.

In addition to assuming that I was ignorant of the sermon text, you have, also, assumed that I had "preconceived notions" about Rev. Wright. No, I didn't have any preconceived notions. I did have the intellectual curiosity to research the genesis of the sound-bite.

Rather than an assumption, try a question. Then, a civil discourse can follow.


Obamavision: economic big brother
During last nights debate Obama expressed doubt that lowering taxes results in greater government revenue. He said that he was more interested in "economic fairness." I think he needs to put forth his economic theory to disprove that tax reductions result in revenue increases. He also needs to explain where the constitution gives the president "economic fairness powers" in a free market economy. This guy is scary. I think he sees himself as a modern day robin hood.

Phylo se What?
"If you want to see how the vast majority of Americans feel about last night's debate, go to ABC news and look at the comments, all 15,000 of them. They are being pilloried for perpetuating right wing smears of Obama."

--Hmm, well I don't need a populace to tell me what to think, I make my own judgments. Also, a lot of those Americans have been dunked in the Obama Kool Aide, so why should I harbor the opinions of people who are too moronic to see Obama for what he is?

"They were questions based on baseless rightwing talking points. Yes, people in the country have been asking these questions, but only because spin monkeys like Hannity and Limbaugh have been filling American's heads with lies and innuendo about Obama."

--Funny Phylo, I didn't happen to see Hannity or Rush write and hand those questions over to those two very-liberal-democratic-journalist-reporters. I didn't see Ann Coulter's long and statuesque arm up anyone's backside, pulling the string and controlling them to say those nasty republicam talking points.

The panel was visibly po'd, Phylo, and your man did that all himself. No one makes Obama lie or say the stupid crass things he does.

"Try to find a statement by Obama himself that you believe reveals him to be anti-white, or anti-American, or disdainful of religion, or a commie."

--That's a tough one, but what do I know, I'm just a Typical White Person Clinging onto my Guns and My Religion.

Shells In

Phylo se What?
"If you want to see how the vast majority of Americans feel about last night's debate, go to ABC news and look at the comments, all 15,000 of them. They are being pilloried for perpetuating right wing smears of Obama."

--Hmm, well I don't need a populace to tell me what to think, I make my own judgments. Also, a lot of those Americans have been dunked in the Obama Kool Aide, so why should I harbor the opinions of people who are too moronic to see Obama for what he is?

"They were questions based on baseless rightwing talking points. Yes, people in the country have been asking these questions, but only because spin monkeys like Hannity and Limbaugh have been filling American's heads with lies and innuendo about Obama."

--Funny Phylo, I didn't happen to see Hannity or Rush write and hand those questions over to those two very-liberal-democratic-journalist-reporters. I didn't see Ann Coulter's long and statuesque arm up anyone's backside, pulling the string and controlling them to say those nasty republicam talking points.

The panel was visibly po'd, Phylo, and your man did that all himself. No one makes Obama lie or say the stupid crass things he does.

"Try to find a statement by Obama himself that you believe reveals him to be anti-white, or anti-American, or disdainful of religion, or a commie."

--That's a tough one, but what do I know, I'm just a Typical White Person Clinging onto my Guns and My Religion.

Shells In

Phylo...ever find your Orangutang?
You need serious help in this fight...This Obama guy is a piece of work...anyone that can't see through this empty suit has to be, well, shall we say misguided, confused, and somewhat totally naive?

Ever notice how Obama's stump speech, well rehearsed no doubt, sound 1000% better than his off the cuff remarks. Sorry folks, but Obama would get his ars kicked in a high school debate!

frog
Frog writes: However, what we do have is a tapestry of evidence woven together over time that reveals EXACTLY who he is and what he believes. Things like statements in his books, comments he makes about his family, the church he attends, and the people he associates himself with. ALL these bits of evidence tell the TRUTH of his racial liberal bias.

Phylo: You have no such evidence! That's my point. If you have any evidence like this, let's see it!

If Obama had displayed any anti-white statements, or anti-American comments, or pro-communist comments then it would be legitimate to consider all of these tangential relationships. But since he displays none of that, and has repeatedly and clearly denounced such ideas, it's clearly an attempt to smear him by association.

Do you seriously think, for one minute, that the Democratic Party would nominate someone who was anti-American, or anti-white? Do you think that they are politically suicidal? You are being played like a harp. You have a severely distorted view of Obama. Go look at the forty minute speech he gave at Sojouners that I've linked to on this thread. THAT is the real Obama. Haven't you noticed how that guy, and the guy we saw in the debates last night, and on Sunday's program on faith, bears ZERO resemblance to your view of him as anti-white, anti-American Commie.

Seriously, to believe the way you do about Obama, you must believe that he can magically fool millions of people into believing that he's a nice, sensible guy, but behind the scenes he's plotting to kill all the whities and create a black communist utopia! Is that what you think? Seriously?

At what point to say, hey, wait a minute, maybe there's some politics going on here. At what point?!

Phylo out.

shells
libs only understand group thought. Unless they can confirm their thinking with other like minded trolls they can suffer from fits of anxiety until they can wrap them selves in the comfort of knowing they are all on the same page and spewing forth the same talking points. Why is it the conservs can push to conversation but the libs can only stay on point and that is typically useless points that neither defend their views or refutes those of the right

Joe
If my responses, appear "Threatening",I apologize.This has not nor will it ever be my intent.I was taught to make strong arguments, at every level.I don't have the luxury of creating facts,therefore I use what has been before me.Liberalism and Conservatism are all the same insanity.The patients are different,and so is the MEDICATION.None for me,THANKS!!!

Phylo - your latest epistle
90% of your latest argument was addressed at the end of my previous response. You are making assumptions that have no basis in reality. You could make a succint argument if you would stop lathering up with assumptions that are false and then trying to defend them.

I will address the 9-11 attack for the limited purpose of "America's chickens coming home to roost". We won't go far off the issue you brought up and I addressed as to whether or not Obama is "religious" at this time. Muslims have been attacking America through its overseas holdings and citizens since Jimmy Carter was President. 9-11 went on, in small increments for over twenty years. When people of ill will do the unspeakable, they always seem to have apologists. Just as the indigent are entitled to counsel, apologists seem to feel the need to excuse the inexcusable.

The legitimacy of Jim Crow cannot be argued. It was wrong. A wrong was righted. Hard feelings, anger, and outrage should have adjusted since then. Remembering that time serves as a lesson. Dwelling on it rather than the way forward has no productive value.

I have never claimed to be so clairvoyant that I will assume what any man (generic) thinks or believes. However, a man distinguishes himself from the crowd when, for example, he holds himself out to run for office. Then, he needs to, early and often, identify himself and his beliefs so there is no confusion. I have read or heard most, I think all of Sen. Obama's speeches. I have not read his books carefully as I have not a) planned to buy them or b) expected to take an exam on them.

As you have ended your comments to me that I have a "distorted" view of Sen. Obama, we have little to discuss. If you sincerely support Sen. Obama, then I must say that, for Sen. Obama, I sincerely hope you are not working for his campaign. You do him a disservice with your insults.

Shells
Shells writes: Funny Phylo, I didn't happen to see Hannity or Rush write and hand those questions over to those two very-liberal-democratic-journalist-reporters.

Here's the transcript from when Stephanopoulos was interviewd on Hannity's radio show. Read it and weep.


HANNITY: There are two questions that I don’t think anybody has asked Barack Obama, and I don’t know if this is going to be on your list tomorrow. One is – the only time he’s ever been asked about his association with Bill Ayers, the unrepentant terrorist from the Weather Underground who on 9/11 of all days in the New York Times was saying “I don’t regret setting bombs. I don’t think we did enough.” When asked about it by the Politico, David Axelrod said that they have a friendly relationship, and that they had done a number of speeches together and that they sat on a board together. Is that a question you might ask?

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, I’m taking notes right now.

HANNITY: September 11, 2001 of all days, there was an article in the New York Times. And there are a number of quotes about Bill Ayers. The Politico had in there the comments from David Axelrod.


I wonder if you'll admit that I was right, and you were wrong.

Phylo out.

Sheepdog
Thanks for sharing that link - I enjoyed it thoroughly! Explains my 'Mandy' and her mentality about protecting her flock.

I am an ex-soldier and have the highest regards for those who protect me and mine. Soldiers, police, fire, EMT and others who spend their lives in service to others.

The black thug who shot my son-inlaw (off-duty cop) and the black policeman who brought the thug to justice - are from two different worlds. The large policeman, with tears in his eyes said "it's not much, but at least I got him".

We hugged him and said "Thanks, it was everything to us."

zeds mom
You failed to address most of my points. So there is no point in continuing to argue with you. Your mind is set. I'll be happy to discuss Obama's faith if you will at least go view his speech to Sojouners with a fresh and open mind. THAT is the real Obama.

And yes, you should read his books. They are brilliant, and they will give you a much clearer picture of the man than what you'll get from the right wing spin monkeys.

One thing on 9/11. We have been manipulating politics in the Arab world since at least 1953 when we organized a coup to overthrow a popular democratically elected leader and installed the Shah because he wanted to nationalize the oil. So, you're a looking at a selective view of history if you're trying to say it started in the seventies.

Phylo, et al
Off for a while. Life is patiently waiting for me.

Phylo on Obama
Phylo wrote: "Do you seriously think, for one minute, that the Democratic Party would nominate someone who was anti-American, or anti-white?"
-------------------------------------------------

Yes, what is your next question?

Wow Phylo
I'm glad you shared that with me. I think we'll have to call that one a draw, and not because I have this desire to be right, but....

Hannity did not strong arm George, or force him, or threaten him, to coerce him to ask those questions.

George didn't have to, but he did....and he asked more than that too. Oddly, when Obama gave his flowery answers, George wasn't satisfied, and probbed again. In fact, it seemed the entire panel wasn't satisfied with Obama's candied (candied and not candid) answers.

So, are you saying that George is a mole within the democratic party to foist republican evils upon Obama? Have we bought control of George, like Soros buys control of all liberal mediums, and Stephanapolous is doing our bidding?

Or, is George his own person, felt those questions were valid, and asked them on his own accord? And really Phylo, George wasn' thrilled with the answers because they made-no-sense. Perhaps even George felt Hannity was onto something.

So, we'll call it a draw. Hannity proposed it to George, but George is not a controlled man.

Killer,
You are correct that Liberalism and Conservatism are two brands of insanity.

Phylo,
Don't you have anything to reply to my view of Obama the deeply religious man?

I didn't think so.

Obama and Wright
From my perspective, the question about the Obama/Wright situation is, to use a now common phrase, what did he know and when did he know it? (I was going to say "The question is, in the Watergate vernacular, what did Obama know and when did he know it. Then I realized that unthinking libs, without simple comprehension skills, would state that I'm equating Watergate and the Obama/Wright fiasco. Which of course, I'm not).

There is no in H E double-toothpicks that Obama can justify dis-inviting Wright to give the invocation at his announcing his presidential aspirations and that he didn't know what Wright was preaching from the pulpit. For thinking, reasoning (and reasonable) people, it just doesn't jive. He HAD to know that Wright was controversial to dis-invite him. That revelation makes the rest of us question why he would maintain a close relationship with someone who preaches hatred and intolerance.

Retired Geek
I retired from the military in Oct 06 after 26 years (20 Years AF Reserves and 6 years AD AF) My dad is also a retired AD (26 Years) Air Force Chief Master Sergeant so being a military brat, I seen my fair share of places.
I came to the conclusion at a very young age that there will always be bad people in this world who like nothing better than to do people harm. Most of those people who don't believe this is possible, suffer from what I like to refer to as Neville Chambelin Syndrome. Give them what they want and they'll leave you alone.
Remember his "Peace in our time" after the Munich conference with Hitler in 1938. We all know what happened after that. History always shows that pacifism will only encorage an agressor.

Phylo Se Fiser
I am always amused when folks talk about how we have manipulated events in the arab world since the fifties, and then bring up the Shah of Iran.

I need you to listen to this, because it is not a small distinction: Iranians are primarily of Persian extraction. They are not "Arabs". If you think that is a minor point, try refering to an Iranian as an Arab sometime.

Do they share some of the same twisted beliefs? Sure they do. But to the best of my knowledge, when Osama gave his rather long list of why America is such a bad country, the rise of the Iranian Shah was not on the list.

I would also as you to explain why Islamic terror has taken place in nations that have no presence in the middle east. Or are you going to tell me that radical muslims destroyed budhist temples because of their ties to America? You can rationalize the anger of terrorists all you like, but ultimately you have to fist wade through a sea of inconsistencies your position fails to take into account.

Phylo
I think you don't understand the difference between faith and religion.

Religion is about following rules and performing ceremonies with or without any sort of heart change. Faith is about a relationship with Jesus Christ that so informs your worldview that your entire way of thinking is changed. Your enemy becomes someone to forgive and pray for, for example.

Most evangelical church websites publish a statement about evangelizing of non-believers and discipleship of believers. The programs advertised are all aimed at those two goals. Trinity's website, however, emphasized ethnic social politics, primary "black" topics. As a person of faith who happens not to be black, entering that website was less than welcoming. Jesus was mentioned, but then the site immediately launched into ethnic social subjects rather than faith.

So, you're right. Obama is a religious man. I don't think he's a Christian in the Biblical sense of the word. He goes to church. It's politically expedient. It may be a good place to raise his daughters. His wife probably enjoys the social interactions. But faith is not the focus there and that makes all the difference.

I don't think Obama actually "attacked" church-going Midwesterners. He showed his utter lack of understanding of faith-focused Christians and did so as to make it appear that he thinks we need his enlightening presence in our lives to make us "smarter" and "less bitter." I wouldn't call that an attack, really. More like a deliberate or ignorant misrepresentation.

ALAN KEYES
http://www.AlanKeyes.com

Member of the newly formed Constitutional Party. Convention April 23, 2008. Running for president.

Wants to stop illegal immigration, lower taxes, right to keep and bear arms.

To all the intelligent folks on here...the best thing we can do is ignore Phylis's rants...oh, I'm sorry...I meant Phylo.


Shells
Actually my point isn't that Stephanopoulos is owned by the right. My point is that all of those gotcha questions are questions that have been stirred up by the right wing media. Obama wasn't disdainful of rural Americans. He doesn't share his pastors views on race. He doesn't share the views of William Ayers. And Stephy and Hannity and Limbaugh all KNOW that. But Hannity and Limbaugh are hammering on these things knowing that a lot of Americans simply don't pay attention to all of the details of a campaign and they are easily manipulated. And, indeed, because these guys have been endlessly pounding on these trumped up charges, people are indeed talking about them.

The moderators are taking right wing spin monkey talking points and legitimizing them by turning them into questions in what is supposed to be a serious debate.

That's why so many people are pissed off at ABC. ABC should know better. And they do, which is why it was so appalling. More is expected of a serious news organization.

Alan Keyes
Or maybe it's http://www.alankeyes.org

bob writes
"I would also as you to explain why Islamic terror has taken place in nations that have no presence in the middle east. Or are you going to tell me that radical muslims destroyed budhist temples because of their ties to America?

Let us also not forget that there are countries such as Thailand and the Phillipines that are fighting muslim insurgencies. These countries have no ties to the Middle East other than the fact that they have guest workers working in the region for wealthy families. It's my understanding that alot of these guest workers are paid well but treated like slaves.

arourawatcher
You couldn;t be more wrong when you say that faith isn't the focus of Trinity. Yes, they are working hard to help black people feel some pride in themselves because far too many of them think that being black is a bad thing. If you want evidence of Dr. Wright's focus on faith, there is a wonderful example on the web. Google Dr. Jeremiah Wright Audacity of Hope. You should be able to find a transcript of that sermon. It is all about faith, and it is excellent.



Phylo writes
"He doesn't share his pastors views on race."

Ok see if you can answer this question that thousands of people have been asking. If Obama didn't share his pastors view on race, why did he attend that church for 20 years? Why did he have have daughters babtized there?
Why did he contribute all that money?
Enquiring minds want to know...


Sheepdog
As always, your point is solid.

"Serious News Organization"
quoth Phylo: "That's why so many people are pissed off at ABC. ABC should know better. And they do, which is why it was so appalling. More is expected of a serious news organization."

That's right!

A serious news organization is expected to stay liberal. Part of that means ignoring any concerns that might be expressed by conservatives.

Come on, ABC. It's time to step up to the plate here. You always ignored right-wingers before; why all of a sudden are you failing our socialist friends?

Why would you want to upset your last remaining liberal fans? Don't you think your viewership is declining enough? If you get your liberal fans upset, you won't have *anybody* watching anymore!

Phylo
Phylo wrote; "from the right wing spin monkeys."
-------------------------------------------------

NO, NO Phylo

It is not politically correct to use the word "monkey" - you are in trouble with the thought police.

Phylo
"ABC should know better"....Really? So then asking tough questions to democrats is a no no?

Did you complain when republicans were asked if they believed the world was created in six days or if they believed in evolution? How are those issues more relevent than asking a man about his questionable relationships?

Your problem is that you have been spoiled for years. Republicans have always been hit with hardball questions by the media while democrats have been treated almost like rockstars. Finally the reporters are hitting democrats with tougher questions and you scream "No Fair!"

This is advice both democrats and republicans need to follow: if you are too thin skinned to deal with a little heat then do not run for office.

Another Great One, Sage!
Obama is a user. He used Wright's friendship, church and parishoners to raise his status in the black community for political gain. It worked.

However, when it comes to middle America, he has no such obvious leader to exploit. So, he winged it, thinking that middle America is as bitter and vengeful as the parishoners that exploited in Chicago. It is his pattern.

Unfortunately, for Obama, middle America does not blame the Government for their problems. He will have to come up with another lie to exploit these people. Good luck!

Obama=McGovern
To you Obama followers: Just remember George McGovern. He got slayed in the General Election. Obama's fate will be the same. You still have time to jump off of the bandwagon.


Sheepdog
Many thanks to you and your father for service to our great country!!!!!!!!!

May God richly Bless You and him.
-------------------------------------------------

I spent some time in Egypt working for the US as a computer programmer (civilian). I was surprised at the 'group think' of the Arabs there. When I examined their computer code for bugs it was very difficult for me to convince them that they had personally coded an error.

Their response would always be "we made an error". My boss who was a PHD from Harvard informed me that I would never get an Arab to admit personal mistakes.

When attending one of my labs he said he was shocked when one of the students said "I coded an error could you help me find it" - so much for racism.

bob
Point taken on the Arab/Persian distinction. And yes, I think there are some Islamic extremists who are motivated only by religion. But that doesn't change the fact that our foreign policy is fueling that extremism.

bob wrote: This is advice both democrats and republicans need to follow: if you are too thin skinned to deal with a little heat then do not run for office.

Looks like Obama has no problem with the heat. Indeed, he seems to be having a lot of fun with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlR9DNfqGD4


bob
Thanks for your post @17:01 and your post at 5:08 was impeccable. I'd also like to add something else if you don't mind. Theres a difference between the right wing media i.e. talk radio and the left wing media i.e. newspapers and television. Right wing media doesn't really give their candidates a free pass. There not afraid to ask the tough questions because they want their audience to know the truth. This is evidenced by the fact that even some republican members of congress want to bring the fairness doctrine to talk radio. The MSM mantra for their candidate (presumably Obama) is taken from "Thou shalt not ask tough questions that will make our candidate look bad" ... I don't think I've ever seen one debate where the moderator is someone from talk radio i.e Hannity, Limbaugh, or Savage. Maybe that's because there afraid of the questions that might get asked.

Bad Guys Do Good Things Every Day
Philo Se Fiser offers of Wright, "You should be able to find a transcript of that sermon. It is all about faith, and it is excellent"

Bad people say and do good things all of the time. However, when a bad person hides under the robes of religion or justice, their bad acts are particularly heinous.

Do you not think that the Catholic Priests that molested kids never gave excellent sermons or lived outstanding lives, otherwise? Of course, they did. And, with the exception of those, relatively few moments of wrongs, they probably lead exempliary lives.

By the same token, you want us to focus on Dr. Wrights excellent sermons. So, what? Does that give him a pass on being a bad guy that uses his robe to promote racism, hate and disrespect for America to a fawning parish? Well, maybe that works for you, but it sure doesn't work for me.

Sheepdog 4:50 post
Sweden and Collectivism
Sweden is a horror story of utopian multiculturalism, socialist mismanagement and runaway immigration, with a 90% tax rate.
-------------------------------------------------
Almost 90% of all robberies reported to the police were committed by gangs of muslims, not individuals. “When we are in the city and robbing we are waging a war, waging a war against the Swedes.” This argument was repeated several times. “Power for me means that the Swedes shall look at me, lie down on the ground and kiss my feet.” The boys explain, laughingly, that “there is a thrilling sensation in your body when you’re robbing, you feel satisfied and happy, it feels as if you’ve succeeded, it simply feels good.” “It’s so easy to rob Swedes, so easy.”


Phylo writes
"But that doesn't change the fact that our foreign policy is fueling that extremism."

Wrong...It's the fact that we support Israel the only democracy in the Middle East. It's the fact that Islamic terrorists want to wipe Isreal off the face of the earth and were standing in way. BTW-we've actually had dealings with Islamic extremists since the birth of our nation or do you need a history lesson for me to prove it you. I'll be more than happy to provide you with the facts on that.




Phylo owns this site.
I have to hand it to you Phylo, you're able to easily trip all the triggers of those who would quarrel with a kool-aid drinker such as yourself.

I think it's in the book of Proverbs that says, "never argue with a fool". Too bad some of the readers here missed that part.

In the meantime, have fun, Phylo old boy - or girl. You're clearly in charge.

Phylo Part 2
"But Hannity and Limbaugh are hammering on these things knowing that a lot of Americans simply don't pay attention to all of the details of a campaign and they are easily manipulated."

-Not me, and not for a lot of folks here, you give us no credit. Personally, I don't watch Hannity, I have no time to listen to Rush either. So, how does Shells get informed?
I watch the democratic debates.
I watch Obama.
I read his speeches.
I see his interviews.
My info is straight from the man himself, and he is the biggest double talking Chicago hack phiny racist there ever was. He is Jesse Jackson hidden inside a Mr. Tibbs.

"And, indeed, because these guys have been endlessly pounding on these trumped up charges, people are indeed talking about them."

-No, Obama is a Gaffe-A-Minute. Okay, I'll be fair, a Gaffe-A-Rama. These aren't trumped up--these things are happening, and each time they do, here he goes a couple days later with a well written speech at feet.

"The moderators are taking right wing spin monkey talking points and legitimizing them by turning them into questions in what is supposed to be a serious debate."

-What do you have a against monkeys? I think the monkeys would find your comments rather degrading. You're out of touch with them. Poor monkeys clinging onto their bananas and twine.

"That's why so many people are pissed off at ABC. ABC should know better. And they do, which is why it was so appalling. More is expected of a serious news organization."

-I can say it now, FINALLY that ABC was a serious news organization last night. They exposed the phony.

And as far as speeches go, Phylo because you always bring up his over-rated speeches--I can read a speech on brain sugery very well to an audience, but that doesn't make me a doctor.

Placating Bad Deeds - Gives License
Phylo Se Fiser offers, "But that doesn't change the fact that our foreign policy is fueling that extremism."

Of course. However, that does not give it license to do bad things. By the same logic, girls fuel passion in men. But, that does not give passionate men license to rape. Nor does it mean that girls must wear burkas to protect men from themselves.

As long as we live and breath, there will be those that see our existence as a motivation to do bad things. Ignorance works that way. To respond to bad acts with enabling apologies is the same as giving license. We have done that in the past: in Europe with Hitler and middle East with assorted Al Qaeda operatives. They thought they had license, to the point of flying airplanes into our buildings.

We are trying to take that license back, but it is a long hard battle. Especially, when there are many that think more license should be given.

Mac Moore,Sheepdog,Georgetwin
I respect each of you and others here at TH for your insights and wisdom. That being said I am asking you to evaluate my thinking on the word "Inappropriate". If you think I am barking up the wrong tree, I will change my thinking.
-------------------------------------------------
Inapppropriate to me has a connotation of time and setting.

It is Inapppropriate to wear blue jeans and a T-shirt to a formal wedding. (time and setting)

It is Inapppropriate to discuss the superbowl at a funeral with the bereaved. (time and setting)

It is not Inapppropriate to do those things in another setting or time.

Obama said the Mentor Wright and Farrahkan anti-semetic comments were Inapppropriate.

Obama said that Mentor Wrights comments on America were Inapppropriate.

Does that imply by the word Inapppropriate that the comments might be apppropriate at another time or setting?

Thanks for your comments.



Shells writes
"I can read a speech on brain sugery very well to an audience, but that doesn't make me a doctor. "

One of the more classic lines yet...Great post

Phylo, dang, My Part 1 disappeared
Let me just sum it up then:

Neener Neener! No just real quick:

"My point is that all of those gotcha questions are questions that have been stirred up by the right wing media."

-No they aren't stirred up by right wing media! Have you thought for once Hillary was helping this out? Even Obama claimed her campaign was a huge part of exposing all his gaffes. He said it yesterday! Besides, it's all true!!!

Obama stepped in his own poop and fell flat on top of it, and no republican conspiracy made that happen. It's like me blaming democrats for Larry Craig, when I know Larry was responsible for tapping his foot in his own poop too!

"Obama wasn't disdainful of rural Americans. He doesn't share his pastors views on race. He doesn't share the views of William Ayers."

-All the evidence is there!!!!!!!!!! No one told me this of his racism and his stupid views of the white American middle class, oops, Typical White People. Obama TOLD me this!

PHALLUS DE FIZZLE

.....When Obama talks about us coming together he is talking about a hot tub in a San Franciso bath house .....COLOSSUS

Retired Greek Gets It ---- Clearly
Retired Greek offers, "Obama said that Mentor Wrights comments on America were Inapppropriate.
Does that imply by the word Inapppropriate that the comments might be apppropriate at another time or setting?"

Absolutely.

Obama is a well educated word-smith. He chooses his words very carefully.

My read on Obama is that he is a user. He exploits people for personal, political gain. In this case, he needs the black vote and is trying his best not to be seen as anything other than a black man in the face of whitey. At the same time, he wants middle America and the non blacks to accept him as a leader.

So, he chooses words that can be misinterpreted any way that you like. Snake-oil-salesman comes to mind.

Mac Moore
Thank you - I value your input.

retired geek
on the contrary. If the deceased is decked out in his best sports fan attire and the tgeam he supported in life had just won the superbowl, the mourners might find it appropriate to discuss the game. Likewise. When wright was giving his "sermons" the reason the oblahma didn't hear anything offensive was that he gave tacit approval to what was being said. When you find yourself in agreement with a speech you hear no warning bells to tell you anything being said was inappropriate. As Shelby Steele stated in one of his columns recently, he says the oblahma's search for his black identity was the driving factore for his joining and staying with wright's church. The missus oblahma with her pronouncements about never having prided in america proves she also heard and approved of wright's message. You are offended when something said attacks your value system. Obviously wright's sermons failed to shock the oblahma's value system

Phylo
As someone else said above, you "own" this thread today.

You keep harping on Obama's words in his speeches and Wright's other "good" in his sermons, but it really comes down to the old saying:

"Okay, you've talked the walk - let me see you walk the talk."

So far, Obama is all talk.

Or another way to put it, "Sorry, what you DO speaks so loud, I can't hear what you SAY!"

Barack Obama - not "ready for prime time".

But your devotion is cute, in a "hero worship" kind of way.

wildwest
Thank you for your input. I value it.

He calls me Mr. Bitter
Well so be it. I could see this calamity coming last year, so I expedited my "firearm purchase". I don't find myself clutching it though...at least not yet.

I don't consider myself bitter. I consider myself disappointed with who Americans seem to consistently send to Congress. IF YOUR CONGRESSPERSON (PC) HAS "SERVED" 2 TERMS, DO NOT RE-ELECT THEM. We seem to have collected a body of career politicians who are only good at spending more and more money.

As for religion, I have been attending church as long as I can remember and continue to do so. I kneel with my bride of 13 years and thank God for my blessings. I don't do this with respect on how my life is going. I do not base my faith in God on my mood or circumstance.

I never have considered voting for a liberal, and I'm even concerned about some of McCain's ideas. This is a perfect example of how the population needs to regain control of our government. I even believe 1 term is plenty for a president. I believe a president in running for re-election during his first term, and if re-elected, is a lame duck and a target for the other political party and hence ineffective. Until we dispatch the career politicians, I don't see change.

Hopefully, prices start reducing, for as I fear, if costs of existence reach critical mass, crime will also rise. Pity he/she who finds themselves in my home uninvited, too close to my young children, for they shall witness first hand my right to bear arms and defend my home and family.

If this attitude riles the ire of liberals, so be it.

wildwest
I value your posts.They are readable and understandable.

I will give you the same piece of advice someone gave me when I first started writing these comments comments.

After writing three or four lines,hit your spacebar a couple of times.It separates your lines and will make them much easier to read.

I hope you are not offended.I actually asked BrianR how to separate my lines like he did and he told me.I appreciated it.Give it a try.

Keep up the good work.I have learned a lot in the last few weeks,politically.I thought I was the only one who felt the way I do and am afraid I am border-line addicted ,now.

YLG of 8:xx AM
And good evening to you. Like your neighbor, Obama started out on a level playing field with me. Heck, he could have been the next J C Watts, for all i knew. Then comes his "most liberal" voting record, then his bigmouth bitter wife, then typical white person and nothing more need be said. Its obvious he is immersed in black victim culture to the point he has no idea of the effect of his choice of words. Easy to see now why Oprah dropped him early, after initial hope. She didn't make a billion while not being able to spot a loser as soon as she got enough information.

Wildwest of 6:26
Your analysis seem precise to me. Obama agrees with the victime culture he has surrounded himself with his whole adult life. He gaffes because he has no inkling of what goes on in the heads of those who are not part of the black victim culture. Bitterness is the only reason he can see for any one to go to church because its the reason he and everyone he knows goes to church. He sees the only reason for a firearm is to express bitterness, it never occurs to him some Keystone nimrod might enjoy trying for a big buck. Those who support him as merely speaking truth are coming from exactly the same place.

Savage99 & wildwest
you might want to look at [[ Oprah's New Church on youtube ]]].This will give some insight into why she supported Obama in the beginning.

It is hard to say what kind of religion she has.Certainly not my kind.

Rowly
My guess is that if Obama should be elected, Oprah will distance herself as far as possible, except in the case he changes his spots, and does to those who elected him what McCain has done to the right, and embraced the opposite principles. Stranger things have happened.

rowly
thanks for the kind words. I have tried to space my thoughts but have yet to get my computer to cooperate. I have tried you suggestion to no avail. Will keep trying to get my keyboard to cooperate

Savage99 & wildwest
Have you looked at (Oprah's New Church on youtube)? She does not even believe in God. Just type in those words in your search engine and it will come up,or at least it does on my computer.I am not too computer-literate,as anyone can see,but am trying.

wildwest,I just hit the spacebar a couple of times when I end a sentence and that does it.Don't worry about it,though.I love reading both you and Savages posts.I know I will get some levelheaded comments.Some of these lefties will drive you bonkers.Right?

savage99
on one of your posts (don't remember which) you mentioned playing basketball.

that is one of my passions.
i played high school and college and my son just completed his senior year as a 2 year varsity starter at shooting guard.

man it was sweet to watch my son play.

i still play everyday and can hang with my all-conference son in one on one.

although full court i can only run foul line to foul these days.

march madness is my favorite sports spectacle.

starting to tune into the nba now, the regular season is not worth watching but now it gets good.

anyway as you can see i can talk basketball all day.

Wildwest
After you complete a paragraph hit the enter key.
Twice for good measure.

It

works

every

time.

;-)

large caliber
thanks for the help. I plead a fair amount of computer ignorance. But I usually can retrieve the infor I want. Now I just need to improve my typing as well

wildwest
I meant to tell you 'enter',not space bar...senior moment.Sorry.Thanks to large caliber for correcting me.I,too can find what I want,but am good at nothing.Don't forget to look at Oprah's new Church. Real eye-opener.

rowly
watched the piece about oprah. Big shock. I always understood faith to be acceptance of something that was bigger than yourself and did not require proof. Obviously these new age types can't accept faith but require proof prior to acceptance.

One day something will happen they can't explain away and where will they turn to for comfort. Oh well to each you own.

wildwest
I had no idea about her until i saw it on the Drudge Report a week or so ago and looked it up.

I was never a fan of hers.Never looked at her show,but thought she had some redeeming qualities.No