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Thursday, July 19, 2007
Larry Elder :: Townhall.com Columnist
Blacks, Banks and "Institutional Racism"
by Larry Elder
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As I drove through the city of Los Angeles on a lovely day, I listened to an interview on National Public Radio. I heard something disturbing. The NPR host interviewed a lawyer with the NAACP who said that he had filed a lawsuit against several banks.

Studies show, said the lawyer, that mortgage lenders charge black home loan borrowers higher rates of interest when compared with white borrowers. Even where whites and blacks have identical financial profiles, according to the lawyer, banks still charge blacks higher rates of interest.

Suddenly, though I continued to enjoy this beautiful, balmy day, I learned -- at least according to this lawyer -- that my lender likely victimized me by unjustifiably charging a higher rate of interest! But before I decided to return home, crawl into bed and hide under the blanket, I waited -- in vain -- for the interview to ask the lawyer a few questions:

Don't banks lend money based upon one's race- and gender-neutral FICO score, or other similar credit report, which seeks to determine the likelihood of default?

In today's online information age, don't many borrowers apply for and obtain loans either online or via telephone, with the loan officer completely unaware of one's race? If so, how did the studies' researchers determine the race of the borrower? When I last applied for a home loan, I saw a box on the application where I could, at my option, indicate my race. I refused. If many others also refused, how did the researchers determine the race of the applicants?

Don't at least some white borrowers pay interest rates as high, if not higher, than those paid by blacks? Are such borrowers simply stupid, as opposed to victims of some sort of conspiracy?

Asians, I learned long ago, are more likely than even whites to have their loans approved. Do Asians, similarly, also pay lower rates of interest? If so, does this mean there's a conspiracy against white borrowers?

What about the race of the lending officer? Do black lending officers, for example, charge black borrowers the same, lower or higher rates than charged by white lending officers?

How many of the applicants are first-time applicants for home loans? Do those borrowers with more experience ask more questions and seek more accommodations? Do black borrowers put in the same amount of time in pursuing this loan as do their white counterparts?

What of black-owned banks? Black banks, in fact, reject black applicants at a greater rate than do non-black-owned banks. Do black-owned banks charge black borrowers the lower, same or higher interest rates as charged by non-black-owned banks? And if the lawyer's claims of discrimination are accurate, where are the entrepreneurial blacks, eager to start and run banks to cater to black borrowers getting ripped off by non-black banks?

Is the lawyer certain that, when comparing "similarly-situated" blacks and whites, he's comparing apples to apples? A survey by the Charles Schwab organization found that when blacks and whites earn the same money, whites save 20 percent more. And a black person earning $100,000 a year had less than $5,000 in retirement savings. Don't differences in savings and debt in black households versus white households account for blacks' higher rate of interest?

Do banks have a legal or moral duty to charge borrowers the lowest possible rate of interest? Assume a buyer walks into a car dealership, knowing nothing about the car's list price, the dealer's costs, and whether -- or even how -- to negotiate for a lower price. Does the salesman owe a legal or moral duty to coach the buyer into how he can buy the car for a lower price? In the case of a home-loan borrower, what role does personal responsibility play in acquiring the knowledge -- or at least seeking the assistance of others with more experience -- in shopping for a loan?

But the oh-so-sympathetic NPR interviewer asked none of these questions. After all, said the lawyer triumphantly, one of the banks named in the lawsuit -- Wells Fargo -- already contacted him to enter into settlement discussions.

Haven't we seen this movie before? Someone makes an allegation of racism, the charge gets sympathetic coverage by media outlets like NPR, and the accused "settles" to get rid of the headlines.

On the bright side, I pulled into a very nice restaurant and enjoyed some sushi. I hope I wasn't overcharged.

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About The Author
Larry Elder is a syndicated radio talk show host and best-selling author. His latest book, "What's Race Got to Do with It?" is available now.
 
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Finally,,,
someone to compare the Minority Asians success vs the Minority Blacks failure...

Every article on race from here henceforth should also do these comparisons,,,,

The success of Asians (above even whites) shows how much of a factor race is in our world today.... NOT.

Career choice
Larry, maybe you could get a job at NPR since you have the analytical mind needed to do a proper interview.....Ohh......never mind.

Larry-San
You KNOW you overpaid for that sushi. Japanese get fish cheaper than whites or blacks, and blacks pay more for everything than whites or blacks. I don't know how you ever became successful with the entire American economic, political, and social system designed to keep you down. Oh, wait, you're smart and take responsibility for your own decisions. Silly me...

Victims
What is it about being a victim that so many people find appealing?

Victims
TrueLib ASKS: What is it about being a victim that so many people find appealing?

Absolution for poor personal decisions

The same nonsense appears in insurance
Several years ago, when I worked in the industry, the main Kansas City newspaper announced with much fanfare that their investigations demonstrated conclusively that literally dozens of insurers were "redlining" against minorities and this could be demonstrated by the unjustifiably low rates of coverage in urban Kansas City in comparison to their coverage elsewhere.

It was a front-page story and was explored and pontificated about on the front page of the publication (and others) for more than a week. How can we let this happen? What recourse did we have? How should they be punished?

A few weeks later a story appeared deep inside the first section of the paper. After all the rhetoric and gnashing of teeth, the paper was finally prepared to list the names of the miscreants.

What did these insurance companies who dared concentrate their coverage away from the urban center of Kansas City have in common?

Their major product was farmowners insurance...

...but few people went back to page A23 to notice and the story of the "redlining" insurers simply hung around.

Media talk the talk but ...
Here in Miami a few years ago the local paper, the Herald did some stories on this issue concerning disparities in lending to minorities. I find it interesting that the Herald has newspaper vending machines all over the county, but, in my hundreds, maybe thousands, of trips through predominately black areas, I do not recall ever seeing a vending machine. Why can they not serve those areas as well as they do the white areas?

Because.........
Steelwimp, If it was profitable...they would. It's a very expensive luxury to be prejudiced in business. Follow the money.

The situation will never improve...
...for the Black community until they lose the victim mentality and stop supporting their Slave Masters the Democratic Party. They must embrace personal responsibility, traditional values and place as much value on education as they do on athletic prowess.

Determining liberal media bias
.
This is how I determined that the media (especially NPR) is liberal, i.e., by the questions NOT asked.

No Credit? No Problem!
How many of you have seen commercials like this, and it primarily caters to black people? I'm sure these loan companies that advertise like this offer horribly high interest rates.

As far as different races making the same amount of money, and the interest rates vary, as a homeowner, a lot of things come into play as to what can fluctuate your interest rates:

1. How much aquired debt do you currently have

2. How long you have been employed at the job you are currently in

3. Have you ever had a collection agency come after you for unpaid bills

4. How much in liquid assets do you currently have in case you do not pay your mortgage

5. Do you have a co-signer and what is their status based on 1-4 of the above.

Those were the things that weighed heavily upon me when I was looking for a home loan. Race absolutely does not matter regarding your interest rates---it has everything to do with your financial history and how responsible you look on paper, not on your skin.

"Cry Wolf" Syndrome exposed.
"And a black person earning $100,000 a year had less than $5,000 in retirement savings."

One line says it all.


Lawyers...
Is this "lawyer" related to the Shake-down Brothers? What pond scum (NPR and "lawyers"). I wish I didn't have to support NPR.

You know Rocker
Racism does exist, no doubt about it. But the simple fact is that every time that something does not go our way, we Blacks can't scream that it is because of racism. If we weren't so absolutely sure that we are supposed to get equal outcomes instead of equal opportunity, we wouldn't be falling back on the old racism cry every time we get our feelings hurt or get disappointed.

Further, crying "racism" at every opportunity diminishes the real incidents of racism that occur. If you claim that every slight is due to race, then when a real racially motivated incident occurs who is going to believe you? You have lost the moral high ground on real incidents when every time that you don't get served fast enough at the local Denny's you file suit for "racial discrimination".

Great Article!
Great Article. Way to make people think.

FICO scores
It seems every so often this red herring comes up. I can't imagine a lender giving a $%^# what your race is - it is all about your FICO score. What I do think happens (and it is driven by poor credit and lack of education not race) predatory creditors (pay day lenders, etc) rip off the poor - again it isn't race but the borrowers economic position and lack of financial sophistication. Regulating these predators out of existence is a double edged sword as the poor will not be able to get any credit.


southerncon
Excellent point--fortunately for some and unfortunately for others, it's all about the FICO score. Also, good point about predatory lenders--something needs to be done, but what affect will this have on poorer folks who need to build credit?

Similarly, for many years (until I became "old" as my kids say) I paid more for auto insurance than my wife. It wasn't a conspiracy against white guys. It was simply a matter that, for my age-group, model of car, etc., the insurance companies formulas saw me as a higher risk. As the famous line from The Godfather goes, "it's nothing personal, it's just business."

rockhead
"Why does Larry find it hard to believe that racism DOES exist."

He doesn't. Of course racism exists. But what is "obvious" is that when mortgage approvals and rates are based on three and ONLY three things - credit risk (as determined by scoring), property risk (as determined by the nature of the property) and financial risk (as determined by the difference between assessed value and loan amount) routinely assessed by some back office person (who likely has no idea what the race of the applicant is), checked by another back office person (ditto) and then facilitated by the loan officer, any one of which might report any suspected improprieties at any time, it is a PRACTICAL IMPOSSIBILITY to engage in the practices that are being alleged here.

"He seems to be trying to find a way to justify the obvious."

What's obvious (as evidenced by pretty much the entire body of your contributions here) that you haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about.

"Is this because he has built a career asserting that racism does not exist and this will put a crack in that career."

Well, since he has never made any such assertion, that's a pretty imbecilic accusation.

"There could be other factors that affected the outcome of the loans and maybe there aren't.
who knows."

Anyone who has even the most rudimentary knowledge of the mortgage loan approval process. It doesn't take mind reading skills; it takes a competent ability to see reality.

"all we have to go in is the results. and facts don't lie."

And the whole point is that the facts do not support the lawyer's contentions.

Or yours.

Rocker
Remember the story about "The Boy who cried WOLF". The NAACP is losing relevance FAST! It seems most of The NAACP Leadership rails about nonsense like The Confederate Flag and The Subject of this column. Why don’t they address inferior urban schools, murder rates among black males and the high illegitimacy rate among black females?

IMO, they are STILL playing on White Liberals Guilt to keep their coffers full. If a business delivered poor service like this, year-in and year-out, they would’ve gone BANKRUPT ages ago! Either The NAACP retools its thinking and its message or it will dinosaur out in the next few years.

Yo, rocker!
Racism does exist.

In fact, the most racist group in this country is Black America....


georgetwin
has rocks in his head ever asked a pertinent question. Other than see victims, I wonder what he capable of noticing. Since this is his driving issue in life what has he proposed to remedy the great injustices he sees. I guess the idea that hard work and preparing oneself for a future has not entered that intellectual vacuum between his ears.

disparities are overhyped
One of the biggest "thinking problems" in the US is that we think that "disparities" are significant indicators of racism. In fact, disparities tell us very little.

Disparities are handy little tools, though, for those who wish to impose government to ensure equal outcomes. What is so damaging today is that we have government sanctioned erosion of equal opportunity in an effort to ensure equal outcomes.

How weird is that?





Corporate America
I am really tired of every time someone does not get their way they scream discrimination. I guarantee you any businessman worth his salt is an equal opportunity clean your pocket mentality. They care most of all about making money and money has no race.

Why is it
that some blacks can never admit progress? The difficulties of blacks in obtaining mortgages is not the story it once was. Look at the criticism of those companies that gave mortagages to many who in the past would never have obtained one, Now they are the bad guy because many (blacks) have defaulted. And yet...many have not defaulted and have a home to call their own. I once tutored a student who had been in prisons and juvenile facilities since his teens. In spite of a series of bad decisions, he always blamed racism for his lot in life.

rocks in your head
what we on the right oppose are those who claim they have a right to favored treatment and special programs because of events that occurred in our past. Trillions have been spent on anti-poverty programs since johnson launched his great society in the sixties. 40 years down the road and trillions of dollars wasted, where is the progress. One of your heroes, the rev jackson claims that the effects of slavery can never be erradicated and thus govt preferrance programs shopuld never end. When blacks realize that making poor choices doesn't contribute to a successful life perhaps they will start to take charge of their own lives. When blacks begin to realize that preparing for their own future requires hard work and sacrifice perhaps they will develope a higher level of self esteem. And finally when blacks realize that taking charge of their own lives and leaving the dimocratic plantation they will find self respect. We on the right value accomplishment and do no fear earned success. Jesse's prescription of permanent handouts keeps blacks locked into the status of second class citizens. But perhaps you are satisfied with that

No such thing as Predatory Lending
Why is it that people continue in the belief in 'Predatory Lending'? There is no such thing! First of all, nobody forces these people to take the loan. Loans are nothing but tools. Any loan. It is all about the person wielding that tool. Just because you have Tiger Woods' golf clubs does not mean you will have the ability to golf like Tiger Woods. The same thing goes with the high interest loans.

I know a man who had to declare bankruptcy when his dot-com business went under. His credit was hammered. The only kind of loan he could obtain was one of these high interest loans at 120% annual interest. Now, in the minds of most people, obtaining this loan would seem insane. But this man knew what to do with the loan. The ability to obtain such a loan ended up making him a multi-millionaire within 5 years.

It all comes down to taking responsibility for where you are in life. I get so tired of the 'victim' mentality. It does the victim no good to continue to cry about how his life is hard because of some person or circumstance 'keeping him down'. Even if it is true that someone is purposely trying to destroy him, is it useful to continue to blame that person? All that does is give your power to someone else.

Rocker
I don't think anyone's saying that racism isn't real. I agree that centuries of racism can't be wiped out in a 30 period. However, the point of the column is that disparities don't always mean discrimination. Do you think that banks purposely choose to make less money from white folks because they're, well, white? As Lolo pointed out, profiteering is an equaly opportunity adventure. I don't know of any businessman who chooses to make less money from someone because they belong to his racial group.

Again, it's nothing personal, it's strictly business.

rockhead the sequel
"All of the reply to my comments refers to blacks crying wolf about racism."

Only in your imagination. Again, the issue is that the available facts do not support the contention that any disparity is by definition (or even likely) the result of racism. That you choose not to deal with reality... well, you ARE, after all, a liberal.

"Well guess what, after more than 300 years of white racism, it take more than 30 years to remedy it."

Racism (off all kinds - part of the delusion is that it is somehow all one way) has ALWAYS existed and, because people regard the "different" with suspicion, will likely never be completely eradicated. That is utterly and completely irrelevant to the discussion because there isn't the slightest bit of evidence to support the assumption that racism is the result of any disparity and ample evidence (whether you care to acknowledge it or not) that such is not the case.

"And you know what the great equalizer is? Education, you right wing numbskulls."

I see. But then the pretense that the topic at hand has anything to do with "education" can only be purveyed by someone demonstrating numbness WITHIN the skull.

"But again most repubs are against minorities getting a quality education..."

...and then, because of Tinkerbell's distraction, Peter Pan was able to escpe from the clutches of Captain Hook...

We a5re not responsible for the apparent lack of actual education that could be the only possible source for THAT ridiculous assertion.

"...thereby perpetuating the ecomomical disadvantage, and the cycle repeats."

The cycle of poverty is a direct result of the disincentives created by the welfare state, creating an entrenched underclass (because it actually penalizes attemots to escape poverty) and harming the very people it is ostensibly designed to help.

It is a failure of liberalism...

...but I repeat myself.

brainoncapitalist
I agree that the victim mentality grows tiresome. At the same time though, it doesn't mean I have to admire "businesses" in my city who make a living off of the promise of easy money from a pay-day loan. I just think it's unfortunate that most people's economic education/knowledge/experience isn't at the level where they can make a loan at 120% interest work for them.

You're right that no one forces "these people" to take loans. It's their responsibility. It doesn't mean I have to admire the "sirens" who lured them over the side of their "ships" with their "songs."

Where are you, Ayana?
Black versus white, your favorite subject.

gee
I think I understand why people get so upset at the Pay-day loan 'sharks'. It is true that when you are struggling to make ends meet that a high-interest pay-day loan can be very seductive. I also think that those businesses exist because there is a demand for it. If there wasn't a demand, they wouldn't do it. They are just filling a perceived need in the marketplace.

As to racism, I think Ayn Rand said it best. She stated that racism was the lowest and crudest form of collectivism. She also showed how the 'collectivist' or 'statist' ideals of marxism and liberalism perpetuate this ugliest of collectivism. In a capitalistic society, racism diminishes because it is in a person's self-interest to make a profit by doing business with as many people as possible. A bar that will only serve 'whites' (such as we had before all the civil rights laws), would be losing a lot of business. Personally, I abhor such racism, but at the same time, I uphold their constitutional right to associate with whoever they wish. They will suffer the consequences of their short-sightedness in lost profits and possible loss of their business.

rocker & education
"All of the reply to my comments refers to blacks crying wolf about racism."

1) F1etch's didn't.
2) It should be "All of the REPLIES."

"And you know what the great equalizer is? Education, you right wing numbskulls."

As long as the education is better than that which you received....

brainon
Good points--there has to be, unfortunately, a demand for such businesses or one wouldn't see them proliferate to such an extent!

You're right also that capitalism is an equalizer. A person who refuses to trade goods/services for another person's $$$ because of race is destined for extinction.

rocker
writes, "And you know what the great equalizer is? Education, you right wing numbskulls. But again most repubs are against minorities getting a quality education, thereby perpetuating the ecomomical disadvantage, and the cycle repeats."

From this, I assume you support school choice rather than the forced monopoly controlled current system which is responsible for the results you decry?

Interesting topic you chose. The republicans see a problem and have a solution. The democrats(liberals) see a problem and demand more money be poured into a failed solution. You want change in education? Do you support the party proposing change or the one vehemently opposing any change?

Institutional Racism
About the only thing that could be considered "institutional racism" these days is the War on Some Drugs.

And that's entirely the government's doing.

Another problem exacerbated by too much government.

Racism
As was said earlier, Blacks are the most racist persons in the country, especially their leaders. Until the Black culture comes to value education, the education of many black youth will be substandard, because that is what they expect and want. Then they can whine about it. If you want to learn more about Black's educational lack of achievement, read Abigail and Stephen Thernstrom's book "No Excuses", about closing the racial gap in education. Hispanic educational achievement is about the same. It's a cultural problem, nothing else! Not racism.

Tru lib asks,
"What is it about being a victim that so many people find appealing?"

Easy. Money.

rocks for brains: 11:58AM Post.

Obviously you have a couple of real problems.

1. You're information is obviously "made up."

2. You suffer from a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.

I say this, not just from your posts above, but based on many, many of your posts on many, many, many columns.



Pot Calling Kettle, Err, Black?

Mr. Elder quotes the black lawyer as saying that: "Even where whites and blacks have identical financial profiles, according to the lawyer, banks still charge blacks higher rates of interest."

Most of the rest of the article consists of Mr. Elder complaining that the NPR interviewer didn't ask the lawyer about FICO scores, credit history (1st time loans), savings, and other financial criteria, and implies (or so is seems to me) that therefore any claims of racism on the part of the lawyer must be bogus. Well, the lawyer already answered that stuff. His claim is that with identical financials blacks end up with lousier loans.

Indeed, confronted with the fact that Wells Fargo is entering into settlement talks over the suit, Mr. Elder can't even in his wildest dreams imagine that this may be happening because Well Fargo *WAS* biased in it's lending practices and knew it! Oh no, this obviously cannot be anything other than yet another case of a scrupulously virtuous and fair financial institution bending over backwards to avoid being unjustly labeled as racist.

It's funny, but while first conceding that of course racism does exist in America, most of the posters on this thread seem to agree that this is not an example of racism, but instead is yet another example of the 'victim' mentality of black people avoiding responsibility for their own plight. In fact, the previous statement is true about EVERY article concerning race relations that I've ever read here at TH! Racism exists but it's never anyplace that we look.

It seems to me that people around here have a knee-jerk 'denial-of-racism' mentality just as pervasive as the 'victim' mentality they attribute to Black People.

I hope Mr. Elder tells us how this lawsuit turns out. I wonder, if it's successful, will Mr. Elder concede or even admit the possibility that there was racism going on, or will his ideological blinders constrain him to see this as yet another miscarriage of justice by the activist, liberally-biased, politically correct, leftwing (I could go on like this for another hundred pages, just lifting pejoratives from other TH articles) court system?


Flaming Lib Multiculturalist
Are ASIANS a minority? Are they as a group more successful than blacks? WHY

What would you say if ASIANS with the same FINANCIAL scores as BLACKS or WHITES got more % approvals than either?

Does the location of where the house being purchased matter or not? (as a lender houses in high risk locals (black) are a higher risk to loan on.)
You cannot compare different houses in different locals as apples to apples.

Assuming there is an untapped market for Blacks (that Wells Fargo ignores) that are looking to purchase homes.. why are not the other lenders giving these loans? (are they all racists)
Furthermore,,,, WHY are you not starting your own MTG company to serve these people and make a ton of $ in the process? Are you RACIST?

Here is a little field trip for you,,, please go to the nearest MATH or ENGINEERING Dept. of your local UNIVERSITY (you are probably located nearby by the reasoning of your comments). When you get there please take a note of the plethora of ASIANS in attendance (students or teachers) and the lack of BLACKS.. Are the admissions officers and hiring officials RACISTS (relegating Blacks to other depts. that don't pay as well in jobs after school)

I say we sue (me and you) every University and College in this nation as all MATH and ENGINEERING DEPT.. in these schools are massively overrepresented in ASIANS and underrepresented in BLACKS....

"c'mon are you with me" Think of the $ we can get from them.... especially if we send AL and Jessie...



Denial-of-Racism Strikes Again
scooter:
"Does the location of where the house being purchased matter or not? (as a lender houses in high risk locals (black) are a higher risk to loan on.) You cannot compare different houses in different locals as apples to apples."

Yes, that must be it. All the rejected Black borrowers must OBVIOUSLY have been trying to buy houses in ghetto slums! (It couldn't possibly have been racism...)

scooter:
"I say we sue (me and you) every University and College in this nation as all MATH and ENGINEERING DEPT.. in these schools are massively overrepresented in ASIANS and underrepresented in BLACKS...."

I have a better idea. Let's all the white folk just STOP WHINING AT and STOP SUING universities over their Affirmative Action programs, since you recognize the obvious need for them.

The Next Generation of TH'ers
Scooter

In fact, maybe we'll get lucky and grow more successful conservative Black People in the Clarence Thomas mold, who will take advantage of affirmative action policies and then claim that they are an unnecessary crutch for black people.

The question is...
...just which premise is more imbecilic:

a) that because the lawyer in question stated that disparities existed "even where whites and blacks have identical financial profiles" that it is the same thing as saying that each individual had identical credit conditions and represented an identical financial risk. To the contrary, the only studies that have been made supporting such a charge assessed "financial profiles" based solely upon income streams, not credit or assets.

b) that Wells Frago's willingness to enter into settlement negotions represents anything more than an attempt to mitigate cost exposure in a country that has no "loser pays" provision and, thus, creates no disincentive to those who would file frivolous, yet nonetheless expensive, lawsuits.

c) that a dearth of articles at TH about legitimate claims of racism indicates anything more than a lack of objection to legitimate claims of racism and merely a concern regarding those (such as this one) that - as anyone who understands anything about the mortgage lending business knows - are without merit and are nothing more than part of a long running extortion racket.

d) that a legitimate point about how home location bears on mortgage rates is a claim that "All the rejected Black borrowers must OBVIOUSLY have been trying to buy houses in ghetto slums". Setting aside the obvious point, that we are discussing rate disparities and not approval rates (which would certainly have come up if the victicrats could make such a point), there is nothing inherently racist or demeaning about recognizing the simple fact that, demographically, blacks are more likely to purchase homes in urban areas where property values are, on average, lower and risk levels are, on average, higher.

e) [my personal favorite] that the utilization of any particular program automatically renders condemnation of such a program as "hypocritical". This is permaps the most idiotic premise of the bunch. There is nothing even remotely inappropriate about availing oneself of whatever programs are made available to you and yet doing so by no means precludes one from making a reasoned assessment of the appropriateness of such a program and concluding that it should not exist and even should not have existed at the time one took advantage of it. There is logically NO hypocrisy involved.

Tragically, this is the kind of outcome driven hyperbole that - in the absence of sound argument - has become the staple of liberal reasoning (sic). It is immune to facts, logic and simple common sense.

Pity.

Facts, anybody?
I have a software business. We wrote much of the reporting and analytical software for a major home loan company (over a man-year - talk about wasted money!). It reported more stuff than you wanted to know just satisfy gov. regs. - age, sex, family members, ethnicity of all, number of relatives in house, relationship of co-borrowers, etc.

Guess what? - these data were for after-the-fact reporting to keep the regulators off of their backs.

The people who collected these data did NOT send ethnicity data to the underwriting office where the decision was made. The loan approvers were color-blind.

Can you believe that the "greedy" loan companies want to approve as many loans as possible to stay in business?

Here's the kicker - when analyzing DEFAULT RATES, the regulators found that ethnicity was NOT a factor. In other words, the underwriters were very good at approving loans and setting rates according to the risk involved in getting the loan repaid - just what the need to do to stay in business. Remember, they make money by lending it reselling the loans, not by foreclosing on houses, and there is competition for your loan. A lender who turns down creditworthy borrowers soon finds iself out of business. I just purchased a new house and brought a better deal from one lender to another and saw the first start reducing or eliminating fees. Have you tried that?

So, if you find any disparities by any kind of group, it is an after-the-fact indicator of the financial habits (credit worthiness) of the borrower. So forget approval rates, and look at default rates (outcome). Wolud you expect your auto insurance company to charge the same rates to an habitually accident-prone driver?

Can we educate enough people to put this myth to bed? You're right, I guess not. Stupid me.

multicultural lib
What is your IQ?

You state that Clarence Thomas benefitted from affirm action(assume true); and hence he should approve of such.

Apply the argument to yourself and your parents.

Assuming you are white, then you and your parents and grandparents benefitted from affirm action for whites back in the day. Therefore, according to your argument, you should be in favor of affirm action for whites in the same vein that you argue that Thomas should be in favor of affirm action for blacks.

Two wrongs do not make a right. how come, you did not figure that out.
What is your IQ?

Jeez, EVERYBODY's Proving My Point

I don't think I've ever heard read such a longwinded and feverishly advocated list of all the other things that could possibly be going on at the various Mortgage companies besides Racism.

All these other explanations are indeed possible. I guess nobody besides me can wrap their brain around the idea that it's also quite possible that some Mortgage Lenders practice racist policies. Again, I look forward to Mr. Elder's followup coverage.

multicultural lib
What is your IQ.

I live within 2 block square area where about 60% of the people are black--middle class. Kids go college. How come. Where is the racism.

My next door neighbors are originally from St Vincent in the Carib. One is young dark black woman, very pretty, college grad, age 28.

In a conversation with her yesterday, I asked her why he has not found a boyfriend being so attractive and educated. Apparantly, she is a racist since she told me most of the American Blacks she meets are ill mannered.

I suggested that she think of a white boys as mates. She stated she preferred to marry a black person. So what do you make of that.


Your too glib as most liberals in tossing around the word racist instead of thinking.


The problem with throwing around racist is the brick wall of the many successful blacks.

You mention education is being denied. First, it is not clear what even a good ed env can do for kids raised by incompetent parents in single family households.

Second, it might be one has to do extraordinary things in education and that is not money. As you might be aware WAsh DC has a $17,000 per pupil cost, the 2nd highest in the country and it stinks.

So, instead of worshipping at the liberal shrine of rewarding non-competitive teachers unions, why not support innovation such as vouchers,

No, if you are typical of the liberals in Washington, you do what they do; send their kids to private schools which maybe cheaper than the $17,000 per pupil cost in Wash DC(here a good private school is $15,000) and genuflect to the teachers unions where you are guaranteed a bloc vote,

Your verbal behavior is all in favor of blacks; your voting behavior says screws blacks. Words are cheap.

AA for whites?
len:
"multicultural lib
What is your IQ?

Assuming you are white, then you and your parents and grandparents benefitted from affirm action for whites back in the day."

This may just be my deficient IQ failing me, but I can't recall ever hearing about affirmative action programs for white people. I didn't know there was some other more advantaged color of people who were granting them to us. Guess I missed out.

Multicultural lib
I recently sold a house to a black family that lived across the street from me
(I owned that house and the one I lived in). They were lease purschasing it.
I knew these people; one worked me for a long time.

He had a hard time getting a mortgage. I say he because his female partner has a negative credit rating. His credit rating was mediocre. His income was a problem because he was also responsible for paying off a loan on his parent's home(he is is good guy; respects parents). I had to do much of the leg work of getting him a mortgage. Wells fargo turned him down because for the reasons mentioned. I eventually got him thru a friend an an 8% mortgage(which might be high--i dont know). BUt the point is in this specific case his record was not good and his debts were a problem. So to the extent his mortgage rate was higher would make sense.
We have no idea what the specifics were in the Wells Fargo case. But like a sex maniac who cant wait to open his fly, the first word out of your mouth is racism. Just like the Duke rape case. Can you figure out why liberals dont generate respect.

Some of the people might be wrong, but they are not racists in the sense of denying people equal rights under the law.

multicultural lib
I was joking about your IQ, but now I am serous. You never heard of affirm action for whites. Oh My. What do you think segregated schools were in the South(the whites had betters schools). If you were a white male back in the day, you had a leg up. The fact that it was not written into law has nothing to do with it. It was what we call de facto affirm action. Ever hear of that word. Now we have to some extent de jure. But it is the same thing.

Ypu are an embarrassment to the white race! Get an education.

Proving your point?
Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist writes: Friday, July, 20, 2007 2:34 PM

"Jeez, EVERYBODY's Proving My Point"

I didn't prove your point.

"Well, the lawyer already answered that stuff. His claim is that with identical financials blacks end up with lousier loans."

One more time - "identical financials", however defined, is not the sole criterion of financial risk.

len's (& Everybdy's) Faulty Logic

Definitions
===========
A = Black People (allegedly) pay Higher Mortgage Rates
B,C,...,Z,.. = All manner of other circumstances involving Black People

Unnamed (but much discussed) NAACP lawyer:

"A is an example of racism"

len (& others):

"B is not an example of racism"
"C is not an example of racism"
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"Z is not an example of racism"
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

len (& others) faulty conclusion:

"Therefore, A cannot be an example of racism."

Once again, I eagerly await Mr. Elder's followup coverage.

Facts confuse flaming liberal multis.
Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist:

IF the lower loan APPROVAL rate for blacks is evidence that lenders hold blacks to a higher standard of financial ability when approving loans and weed out a higher percentage of applicants having the same scores as whites, THEN the default rate should be the same or lower because the black pool is more selective. Now, please read that again slowly.

There are several studies that show that the black default rate is the same or higher. Read one yourself! Three of the four authors are feds.

http://bus.utk.edu/finance/fac_staff/flautt/berkovec-canner.pdf

At least until midnight tonight, 2 plus 2 is going to stay 4. Tomorrow, I might take a day off, so you can make it what you want then. It hurts to see flaming liberal multiculturalists confused by the facts.

multicultural lib
Multi is a waste of time. He exemplifies the arrogance of the race baiters so exemplified in Shelby Steele's book, White Guilt.

The way to deal with such is to totally ignore him; he is getting his rocks off. Facts do not matter. He would gladly p imp for Al Shartpon in the name of multi-culturalism.

I know it is tough to ignore these characters, but try. Steele in his book mentions an episode when he was teaching. There was a meeting to discuss English curriulum headed by a white teacher in college. They wanted to revamp the Engl curric to subtitute black literature for the classics; she went around the table asked what each thought. When she came to Steele, she said to paraphrase: "Oh Shelby, I know you agree with me". That was because he was black and had no mind of his own.

HE got pi ssed off; and it was this point that he realized the bankruptcy of the mult cultural movment and white guilt. And as he stated he severed all relationships with these boors. Let us do the same with multi cult.

Let him get his rocks off somewhere else.

Deluded FLM
"I guess nobody besides me can wrap their brain around the idea that it's also quite possible that some Mortgage Lenders practice racist policies."

The problem is that the assertion is absurd on its face (particularly to anyone who knows the slightest thing about how the industry functions.

Look...

Fire is a very serious matter aboard ship. That it is less of an issue today due to efforts to minimize it doesn't make it any less of a real problem. At the same time, fire is not the cause of every problem that arises aboard ship and only a blithering idiot can look at the available facts and conclude that "it is possible" that fire was the cause of the Titanic sinking.

Now, replace "fire" with "racism", "aboard ship" with "in this country" and "Titanic sinking" with "lending disparity." The paragraph is no less true.

Once is Enough
Rich D.:
"IF the lower loan APPROVAL rate for blacks is evidence that lenders hold blacks to a higher standard of financial ability when approving loans and weed out a higher percentage of applicants having the same scores as whites, THEN the default rate should be the same or lower because the black pool is more selective. Now, please read that again slowly."

Naah, once quickly is all I need. It's crap. We agree that racism exists (you folks just never find it in any particular place you look). Granting it's existence, it's possible that it causes loan defaults among it's many other ill effects.


To F1etch, with Substitutions
F1etch:
"Racism is a very serious matter aboard in this country. That it is less of an issue today due to efforts to minimize it doesn't make it any less of a real problem. At the same time, racism is not the cause of every problem that arises in this country and only a blithering idiot can look at the available facts and conclude that "it is possible" that racism was the cause of the lending disparity.

Of course a fair-minded person can look at the 'available facts' and admit racism as a 'possible' cause of the lending disparity. There are very few 'available facts' here, and I suspect that most of what you are considering as 'available facts' are the opinions and generalizations strewn throughout this article & thread, that may or may not apply to the particular set of lenders and loans considered in the lawsuit.

F1etch quoting me:
"I guess nobody besides me can wrap their brain around the idea that it's also quite possible that some Mortgage Lenders practice racist policies."

F1etch:
"The problem is that the assertion is absurd on its face (particularly to anyone who knows the slightest thing about how the industry functions.)"

The business of Home Mortgage Lending has been around in this country as long as there have been banks. By your logic, it has somehow *Never* been racist simply by virtue of "how it functions".

Or perhaps you claim that 'how the industry functions' has changed from the way a Lending institution functioned in, say, Atlanta GA in 1910. Can you describe this miraculous industry-wide change in 'functioning'? Can you demonstrate it's completeness?

Not "fair minded" - "informed"
"Or perhaps you claim that 'how the industry functions' has changed from the way a Lending institution functioned in, say, Atlanta GA in 1910. Can you describe this miraculous industry-wide change in 'functioning'? Can you demonstrate it's completeness?"

Obviously that is EXACTLY what happened. There's nothing "miraculous" about it. Lending institutions are among the most heavily regulated entities in the country (after insurance companies). The bulk of that regulation was put into effect in the wake of the Great Depression (think Glass Steagal and, to a lesser extent, McCarran Fergusson).

Stricter controls were put in place to ensure sound lending and accounting practices - at least until Senator St. Germaine (D-FL) suggested deregulating S&Ls. In 1968, the Fair Housing Act placed numerous restrictions on what information could be taken into consideration by lenders and subsequent additions to the body of law has placed the collection of compliance information (including information on race) and the collection of credit information (which is routinely done by simply entering data - that does not include race - into a computer model that generates a score which is used mathematically along with loan to value (LTV) information to determine overall risk and the resultant rate.

The number of people who must, by law, review a loan (typically without racial information even available) and the nature of the scoring process make it essentially IMPOSSIBLE for a lender of any size to engage in the practice of racism in lending. It is certainly possible that such an instance could occur with a small equity lender with fewer controls and less oversight, but Wells Fargo, like the other lenders so impugned, does not fall into that category.

Your presumption that the industry hasn't changed merely demonstrates how completely lacking in actual knowledge and understanding your baseless accusations really are.

Two plus two is now five.
Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist writes: Friday, July, 20, 2007 5:16 PM

"Once is Enough"

"Naah, once quickly is all I need. It's crap."

OK, you win. The government report is crap, I don't know what software I wrote, and F1etch's testimony agreeing with me that the models don't have race as a parameter is also crap. You are the last intelligent person left. Please turn out the lights when you leave, and reprogram your calculator. Two plus two is now five.

Bye.

Flaming Fool
It is not that we at TH go out of our way to disprove racism in all cases, it is that we understand there are many reasons other than racism for things to go down the way they do. You OTOH as a Flaming libdrool, can only accept the one and only true reason that bad things ever happen to black people: RACISM! You guys are pathetic!!

Replies to Various
F1etch:
"The number of people who must, by law, review a loan (typically without racial information even available) and the nature of the scoring process make it essentially IMPOSSIBLE for a lender of any size to engage in the practice of racism in lending."

Your description of the regulation grown up around lending institutions (too long to quote here) is interesting and instructive. I don't know what laws (if any) tried to promote fairness in lending in 1910, but there are more of them now. But I don't buy your statement above, any more than I'd believe that all the existing laws concerning environmental protection now make it impossible for any pollution to occur. For example in 1993, 25 years after passage of the fair housing act, 1st Chrysler Mortgage Corp was fined over two million dollars for predatory home lending practices. (http://financialservices.house.gov/banking/52400br4.htm)

The people at the NAACP seem to think they have a case, and I don't doubt that they have a legal team and a great deal of research behind that opinion. OTOH Mr. Elder has a spoiled automobile ride, and you all here at TH have your opinions.

I find your certainty that this couldn't possibly be a case of racism in Mortgage Lending to be just the opposite of reasonable.

Rich D quoting me:
"Naah, once quickly is all I need. It's crap."

Rich:
"OK, you win. The government report is crap,"

No Rich, just your previous paragraph in your previous post. And my calling it 'crap' was uncouth, though not unprovoked.

Besides the capability of racism to cause a higher default rate among black applicants, the NAACP suit doesn't even claim that Lenders are holding black applicants to higher standards of loan acceptance. It claims that the rates black people get charged are higher.

bobbit:
"...You OTOH as a Flaming libdrool, can only accept the one and only true reason that bad things ever happen to black people: RACISM! You guys are pathetic!!:"

I claim nothing here about any bad thing that ever happened to a black person other than THIS ONE THING, described in THIS ARTICLE! And all that I maintain is that it is POSSIBLE, not even that it's PROVEN, but that it is POSSIBLE that this is an example of racism.


Flaming
Is it also possible that ASIANS are BENEFITTING from RACISM as they get higher % of approvals than both BLACKS and WHITES,,,(assuming of course they have the same financials)? Oh yea in your world this must be the case...

Or do you just assume that white people only hate blacks and not ASIANS because,,, you know thier kinda cute.?

You did'nt go to the UNIVERSITY to check out the %'s of ASIANS in MATH and ENGINEERING depts. DID YOU?
C'mon it's a simple road trip...

Flaming Liberal Multi Etc.
FLM: "I don't know what laws (if any) tried to promote fairness in lending in 1910, but there are more of them now. But I don't [...] believe that all the existing laws concerning environmental protection now make it impossible for any pollution to occur."

But pollution today is MUCH less than 20 years ago. The air is cleaner. The water is cleaner. The environment is cleaner.

This is a FACT.

Same with racism. Sure it still exists. Pollution still exists. But it's a LOT less than it used to be.



FLM: "I find your certainty that this couldn't possibly be a case of racism in Mortgage Lending to be just the opposite of reasonable."

What is UNreasonable about looking at FACTS? Where facts are absent, what's UNreasonable about the presumption of innocence, until PROVEN guilty?

Anecdotes, such as you 1st Chrysler Mortgage Corp, prove nothing at all. It's always possible to find ONE anecdote that "proves" your point. The data suggest that such anecdotal "evidence" are the exception rather than the rule.



FLM: "And all that I maintain is that it is POSSIBLE, not even that it's PROVEN, but that it is POSSIBLE that this is an example of racism."

OF COURSE it's POSSIBLE.

It's POSSIBLE that you're the Governor of Arizona.

But until you provide some PROOF, I'm afraid we'll have to wait for some real statistics and some real data, and the data presented so far suggest innocence rather than guilt.

Reply to Alby
Unca Alby:
"But pollution today is MUCH less than 20 years ago. The air is cleaner. The water is cleaner. The environment is cleaner. This is a FACT.
Same with racism. Sure it still exists. Pollution still exists. But it's a LOT less than it used to be."

I agree that racism is less than it was, I'm a little less sanguine about pollution. Many sources of pollution have been dealt with, but we keep coming up with new disasters, like Hatfield Meats for instance. And the planet is warming... well, nevermind.


Alby Quoting Me:
FLM: "I find your certainty that this couldn't possibly be a case of racism in Mortgage Lending to be just the opposite of reasonable."

Alby:
"What is UNreasonable about looking at FACTS? Where facts are absent, what's UNreasonablele about the presumption of innocence, until PROVEN guilty? ....But until you provide some PROOF, I'm afraid we'll have to wait for some real statistics and some real data, and the data presented so far suggest innocence rather than guilt."

Beyond the fact of the existence of the lawsuit, little actual data has been presented, just a bunch of opinions, and questions that Mr. Elder wishes were presented to the NAACP lawyer.

I'm not presuming guilt or innocence. My objection is to Mr. Elder (and most everybody else here) taking offense at the very raising of the question. This is NOT waiting "for some real statistics and some real data". It is NOT
"looking at FACTS".

What it IS is clinging to an ideological position that Black People are entrapped in a "victim mentality" and everything that they decry as racism is really just them looking for someone else to blame for their own failings.

The sad thing is that this "victim mentality" really does exist among some Black people, and it IS counterproductive to their advancement. But TH'ers and the right in general
are far too triggerhappy in invoking it, using it on cases that may very well be real racism, using it as soon as they first hear of a new case of alleged racism, and that provides an excuse for Black people to avoid ever confronting their own "victim mentality".

Alby:
"Anecdotes, such as you 1st Chrysler Mortgage Corp, prove nothing at all. It's always possible to find ONE anecdote that "proves" your point."

That single anecdote is sufficient to disprove f1etch's claim that the Mortgage Lending business was somehow structurally or functionally incapable of being discriminatory. That's why I cited it.

Alby:
"The data suggest that such anecdotal "evidence" are the exception rather than the rule."

Again, no data. In the article I reference the 2.15 Million settlement that I mentioned above is described as one of 189 separate cases that were brought against the lender. The article said that others were also settled in favor of the plaintiffs.

That I found this reference after about 5 minutes on Google (it would've been quicker, but all the NAACP lawsuit references come up first) suggests that other examples can be found.


AA for Whites
len

No, I have never heard of segregated schools being described as 'affirmative action for white people'. I've always heard it described as discrimination, injustice, prejudice, and one of the reasons for the creation of Affirmative Action programs.

I suspect this label was invented by people who don't like affirmative action.

Asians and Loans
scooter:
"Is it also possible that ASIANS are BENEFITTING from RACISM as they get higher % of approvals than both BLACKS and WHITES,,,(assuming of course they have the same financials)?"

If the above is true (references would be nice) then yeah i guess it could be possible.

scooter:
"Oh yea in your world this must be the case..."

scooter, (possible) != (must be) (read it again, slow). No it's only just possibly true, much like the NAACP suit possibly is valid.

scooter:
"You did'nt go to the UNIVERSITY to check out the %'s of ASIANS in MATH and ENGINEERING depts. DID YOU?"

I work in a medical research institution. There are more Asians here than I encounter in most other places (save maybe Chinatown), OTOH half the world's population is Chinese, and there's lots of other Asians too. Maybe they are really UNDER-represented where I work, I don't know (they aren't a majority). I also see at best very peripheral relevance of any of this to the NAACP lawsuit.

Flaming
It's simple FLAMING,,,, Why are not the same accusations of racism against Wells Fargo on Blacks also being made about ASIANS? The same people making the same case against Wells Fargo have the same DATA on Blacks as ASIANS...
The Fact they are not on the plaintiffs "aggrieved" list reveals miles of info..

If you really have a case against Wells Fargo and are the plaintiff (or AL or Jessie) then you would include all agrieved parties.... ASIANS just don't fit the list do they....

Again the answer to this lack of discrimination against ASIANS is that WHITE people just "think they are cute". But not Blacks,,,, RIGHT?

I love your comments on possible,,, I will add another,,, it's possible you are an idiot..(not must be, just possible).. it's possible that captain KANGAROO was originally a woman who had a sex change,,(not must be, just possible).. it's possible that aliens outnumber humans, but hide so we can't see them,,(not must be, just possible)..
YESSSS,,, anythings possible,,, is'nt it?

And finally your comments on working in a Medical Research Institution and working with "more ASIANS here than I encounter most other places save CHINATOWN"... this is classic...
Why are there not more BLACKS than ASIANS where you work considering (in this country and not CHINA) Blacks far outnumber Asians?
Why do you not consider your employer as racist and discriminatory as Wells Fargo? (asians and blacks both have the same financials of being MINORITIES).
Why are YOU not a RACIST for not recognizing the discrimination?
Why does the fact that half the world is Chinese make it OK to have this discrepancy? (all Race Based crap is on %'s and #'s from just this country)

This one is of utmost importance..
Why, considering the success of the MINORITY group ASIANS do you feel discrimination is relevant against Blacks? Why are not ASIANS also discriminated against? (please refer back to ASIANS being too cute to not like)..

Discrimination is not relevant in this country today in any (meaningful) way.
ASIANS PROVE IT.. Thus the NAACP lawsuit (and the organization itself) is MEANINGLESS.



Flaming etc. -- RACISM! RACISM!
FLM: "My objection is to Mr. Elder (and most everybody else here) taking offense at the very raising of the question [of racism]. This is NOT waiting "for some real statistics and some real data". It is NOT "looking at FACTS"."

And our objection is the knee-jerk reaction of most liberals to ASSUME that racism is the cause of every problem that comes up, any time it involves someone who's not a white male.



FLM: "What it IS is clinging to an ideological position that Black People are entrapped in a "victim mentality" and everything that they decry as racism is really just them looking for someone else to blame for their own failings."

Sorry, but this "ideological position" is based on FACTS.



FLM: "The sad thing is that this "victim mentality" really does exist among some Black people, and it IS counterproductive to their advancement."

EXACTLY. Good of you to admit that.


FLM: "But TH'ers and the right in general
are far too triggerhappy in invoking it, using it on cases that may very well be real racism, using it as soon as they first hear of a new case of alleged racism, and that provides an excuse for Black people to avoid ever confronting their own "victim mentality"."

As opposed to most liberals who jump on the "OH GOSH IT'S RACISM AGAIN!!" bandwagon, without even so much as looking into the situation?

Like the "gang of 88" at Duke University? (to take a recent example) Who, to my knowledge, have yet to apologize for vilifying those lacrosse players.

Certainly racism exists. Racism will always exist. But it is no longer a huge obstacle -- it's hardly so much as a speedbump these days.

At this point, accusations of racism is the problem. The Politics of Victimhood is the problem. People are making a living out of fanning the flames, instead of letting the fire die a natural death. These people can not afford to acknowledge the progress that's been made, because that will hurt their bottom line.

So is it any wonder conservatives react the way they do? The boy has cried "wolf" a little too often.

Flaming -- Lawsuits
FLM: "I hope Mr. Elder tells us how this lawsuit turns out. I wonder, if it's successful, will Mr. Elder concede or even admit the possibility that there was racism going on, or will his ideological blinders constrain him to see this as yet another miscarriage of justice"

Similarly I wonder, if the case is dismissed out of hand, whether liberals will concede or even admit the possibility that people very often use the "racism bogeyman" to shake down companies with deep pockets.

In either event, the winning or losing of the court case proves little. Very often companies will settle out of court because it's cheaper than a full-blown legal battle that's very likely to be lost anyway, thanks to a poisoned jury pool.

Which is one of the reasons these sorts of cases keep coming up. The tort system in this country is like playing the lottery. You stand to win millions for the price of a $1 ticket. Today it's alleged racism -- tomorrow it's alleged poor product quality -- the next day, the coffee is too hot --

Racism is a favorite because it justifiably creates so much more public sympathy. When a woman spills hot coffee in her lap, at least 3/4 of the public believes it's her own damn fault. Had she been black, and somehow played the "race card", 3/4 of the public would have been on *her* side.

Scooter and the Asians
scooter:
"It's simple FLAMING,,,, Why are not the same accusations of racism against Wells Fargo on Blacks also being made about ASIANS? .....

( much nastiness and drivel)

ASIANS PROVE IT.. Thus the NAACP lawsuit (and the organization itself) is MEANINGLESS."

The folks at the NAACP wisely do not let their enemies (like you) choose their legal strategies for them. Why do they not name Asians in their lawsuits?

1) Maybe they have more and better data about caucasians.

2) Maybe they do not wish to involve another racial minority, which has also been victimized in the past. They are after all the NAACP, not the NAABP.

3) Maybe they feel that more narrowly-focused and well-defined cases have better chances of being proven.

4) Maybe they know more about the racial makeup of the firms that they are targeting than you and I do, and are tailoring their lawsuit accordingly.

That the NAACP chooses to pursue a case based on discrepancies between Blacks and Whites and not Blacks and Asians proves nothing.

scooter:
"This one is of utmost importance..
Why, considering the success of the MINORITY group ASIANS do you feel discrimination is relevant against Blacks? Why are not ASIANS also discriminated against?"

I can't explain prejudice and discrimination, it's nasty and illogical. I'll therefore leave it to you.

How Much Racism is There Today?
Alby:
"Certainly racism exists. Racism will always exist. But it is no longer a huge obstacle -- it's hardly so much as a speedbump these days."

I don't think even Larry Elder would go this far.

Alby:
"At this point, accusations of racism is the problem. The Politics of Victimhood is the problem."

Accusations of racism are A problem, but until a large majority of the Black People in this country tell me that they agree with you, I will never consider it to be the THE problem. Maybe it's YOUR problem. It's just too obviously self-serving for all the White people to get together and declare that racism is dead, or trivial, or "hardly so much as a speedbump".
That's an easy thing for White people to say and believe. When the victims agree, then I'll believe it.

Alby:
"Similarly I wonder, if the case is dismissed out of hand, whether liberals will concede or even admit the possibility that people very often use the "racism bogeyman" to shake down companies with deep pockets."

I can't speak for all Liberals, and I don't know that I'd characterize it as happening "very often", but I agree that it has happened and has been attempted more, and that it is a bad thing. (It's not like being strung up by your neck from a tree and burned to death, but it is a bad thing.)

Flaming
I ask any relevant souls out there that may consider Discrimination in this country as relevant to please refer up to FLAMING LIBERAL MULTICULTARALST 2:40 PM.....

How about those responses?

In the end FLAMING... regarding why ASIANS are successful and do not suffer discrimination but BLACKS DO...

Flaming does not know why..."i can't explain prejudice and discrimination, it's nasty and illogical, I'll therefore leave it to you"

Please do leave it up to me...

Discrimination ignores ASIANS from both BLACKS AND WHITES because both of these groups THINK ASIANS ARE REALLY CUTE....

Your answers are ILLOGICAL and NASTY,,
to assume the NAACP does not include ASIANS in thier cases because;

1. they have better data about caucasions.. (They really don't want to sue the CUTE people, unless it's TOYOTA)
2. not involving ASIANS because ASIANS don't want free $ (lawsuits) or thier own persecution.. (again why involve this CUTE ASIAN race into the mud ehhh)
3. blacks have better chances of winning the cases without asians.. (your wrong on this one,,, what jury would'nt give the CUTE ASIANS whatever they want)
4. the lawsuit is tailored after the company to sue, asians don't fit the lawsuit bill.. (why ignore the CUTE minorities from all the fun, they were persecuted to?)

Those poor CUTE ASIANS,,, being SUCCESSFUL in spite of thier MINORITY status.... IT'S NOT FAIR IS IT FLAMING?

How much Racism?
UA: "Certainly racism exists. Racism will always exist. But it is no longer a huge obstacle -- it's hardly so much as a speedbump these days."

FLM: "I don't think even Larry Elder would go this far."

I believe he has actually said words to that effect. I guess you don't listen to his radio show regularly.



UA: "At this point, accusations of racism is the problem. The Politics of Victimhood is the problem."

FLM: "Accusations of racism are A problem, but until a large majority of the Black People in this country tell me that they agree with you, I will never consider it to be the THE problem."

The identification and resolution of problems is NOT best handled "democratically".

If you were to ask ANY large group of people what the very best thing could be done to resolve problems, 90% would respond that they'd like to have a larger income.

And 90% of the people who drive believe themselves to be above average drivers.

There have been polls -- MOST blacks (by a wide margin) respond saying that they PERSONALLY do NOT suffer from racism. Yet they still believe racism is a "big problem". How can this discrepancy be explained? I mean, if racism is a "big problem," shouldn't most blacks have suffered from it *personally?*" What explanation, other than the near-constant media drumbeat about how horrible white folks are?



FLM: "Maybe it's YOUR problem. It's just too obviously self-serving for all the White people to get together and declare that racism is dead, or trivial, or "hardly so much as a speedbump".
That's an easy thing for White people to say and believe. When the victims agree, then I'll believe it."

Maybe you should ask the "victims" for some evidence before you blindly believe everything you hear.

Don't take my word for it -- go ask some "victims." Ask for concrete proof. Not just anecdotes. Not stories about a "wife of a cousin of a friend I used to know."

This is why Larry Elder wanted those questions presented at that interview. My suspicion is that the person being interviewed would have a hard time answering them.

In the meantime, I don't see how you're so worried about what white people believe. *MOST* white people in this country agree with you. That's why stories of racism get such good press. It sells. People are interested. People care.

This would not be the expected result if whites in America were still largely racist. Racists would dismiss stories about racism, and those stories would not sell. But they do.

Racism may not be dead, but the evidence is that it is *more* dead in America than anywhere else in the world.

There are blacks who obsess over racism, and blame it for all their problems. There are blacks who don't. The former group is going to be left behind.

scooter -- "Cute Asians"?
I think you need a new theory, dude!

Unca
I'm tryin to help LIBERALS,,, they obviously don't think it's due to Hard work.... If you think discrimination is against blacks but not asians,, then why not the CUTE theory?

scooter -- Oh --
IC

scooter & those Cuteypie Asians

I suspect that scooter has a large collection of Anime' under his bed, with many pages stuck together somehow ...

Common Sense, Not Democracy
Alby:
"The identification and resolution of problems is NOT best handled "democratically"."

I don't see where I'm being 'Democratic' here. If the issue we're discussing is the existence and extent of racism and prejudice against African Amercians by the mainstream (majority White) American culture, we'd be silly not to solicit the opinions of African Americans.
Indeed, if we were forced to choose either the opinions of African Americans or the opinions of White Americans, I'd go with the former (though I'd strongly prefer both).

Alby:
"There have been polls -- MOST blacks (by a wide margin) respond saying that they PERSONALLY do NOT suffer from racism. Yet they still believe racism is a "big problem"."

Some references to particular polls would go well here.

Alby:
"How can this discrepancy be explained? I mean, if racism is a "big problem," shouldn't most blacks have suffered from it *personally?*" What explanation, other than the near-constant media drumbeat about how horrible white folks are?"

Here in Philadelphia everyone pretty much agrees that the city is gripped in a crisis of violence, we've had some 230-odd murders so far this year, on pace for an annual record. This is viewed by all as an emergency. Yet statistically speaking hardly anybody has been murdered.

Racism can be a big problem even if it's ill effects damage only a small percentage of the Black population.

Poll for FLM
UA: "There have been polls -- MOST blacks (by a wide margin) respond saying that they PERSONALLY do NOT suffer from racism. Yet they still believe racism is a "big problem"."

"Some references to particular polls would go well here."

Fair question.

http://www.time.com/time/classroom/psych/unit7_article1.html

"The days of Bull Connor, police dogs and fire hoses are long gone, and many would find it comforting to believe that skin color is no longer an issue for kids. Has the newest generation of Americans finally arrived at that melanin-friendly Promised Land? No. But a new TIME/CNN poll of 1,282 adults and 601 teens (ages 12 to 17) has found a startling number of youngsters, black and white, who seem to have moved beyond their parents' views of race. These kids say race is less important to them, both on a personal level and as a social divide, than it is for adults. It must be noted that more than half of both white kids and black still consider racism "a big problem" in America--however, more than a third classify it as "a small problem." Asked about the impact of racism in their own lives, a startling 89% of black teens call it "a small problem" or "not a problem at all." In fact, white adults and white teens are more convinced than black teens that racism in America remains a dominant issue.

Furthermore, black teens are more reluctant than others to blame racism for problems. Indeed, nearly twice as many black kids as white believe "failure to take advantage of available opportunities" is more of a problem for blacks than discrimination. That's especially extraordinary given the fact that 40% of the black teens surveyed believe SATs are loaded against them, and that blacks have to be better qualified than whites to get a job. These responses seem to indicate that black teens believe color barriers exist, but, despite that, they retain an admirably dogged belief in self-determination."

Relativity
quoth FLM: "Racism can be a big problem even if it's ill effects damage only a small percentage of the Black population."

That is incorrect. You have to measure your response against the severity of the problem -- the REAL severity, not the popular perception of the severity.

You want to talk about problems -- murders in Philadelphia?? -- Pah! I scoff on your murders in Philly! 230 murders is NOthing!

Do you know that there's a very good chance that a mile-wide asteroid could strike the Earth at ANY MINUTE and WIPE OUT LIFE AS WE KNOW IT?? We'd all go the way of the dinosaurs.

And that's a FACT.

But the question is -- how much of your resources do you devote to that problem?

Hmmmmm. I don't have a good answer to that rhetorical. How much?

But the point is -- If racism is a BIG PROBLEM -- a march that liberals are lock-step on -- then it requires big solutions. BUT -- it's not a "big" problem anymore. It hasn't been a "big" problem for decades, and it continues to get smaller every year, as more and more minorities of all sorts of persuasion latch on to sizable chunks of the American Dream.

It's time to put the issue to bed. Don't bury it -- don't forget about it -- but don't obsess over it. Too many people obsess over it. There are more important issues to worry about.

Common Sense
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.
Albert Einstein, (attributed)
US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)


Flaming
I hope you would'nt have a problem if I had the ANIME (whatever that is) and it being stuck together...

I don't have a problem with you seeing racism elsewhere in the country but ignoring your own employment which is overwhelmingly ASIAN and not BLACK...

Myself I can't see why we can't work together on taking your EMPLOYER to work on DISCRIMINATION charges,, If its like you claim (more asians than chinatown) then we should have a case at least as good as any NAACP crap...

I guess I'm not above a "shakedown" when you get right down to it....
BUT NOT THOSE CUTE ASIANS??? NOW
Back to the Magazine...

More on Polls
It's funny reading Time/CNN's take on their own poll. As far as they're concerned, the reason the participants don't see discrimination is "naiveté" -- in other words, they're saying that if you don't see blatant racism all over the place, you're "deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment".

This poll was of mostly young people, so Time/CNN's idea is that they don't see racism YET because they haven't started looking for a job. Oh yeah, there you go -- being black clearly means your only career options involve asking if "you want fries with that."

Nevermind the stats showing blacks doing better and better financially. Nevermind there are more black business owners and black millionaires than ever before. None of that matters because "The Man" is always going to hold you down. And Time/CNN appears to be saying only the "gullible" are not aware of this.

Apparently we still live in an age where black failure MUST be due to racism, white failure is due to laziness, black success MUST be due to Affirmative Action, and white success is due to racism. What a marvelous attitude: blacks can do nothing without the help of white liberals.

There is a classic line in the piece: "People don't always level with pollsters; they're notorious in fact for giving answers they believe to be socially acceptable at the expense of revealing their true feelings."

You know, they NEVER (or rarely) point this out UNLESS they disagree with the results.

At any rate, the poll gives me some hope for the future, and I certainly could use a little hope in this age of creeping socialism. Firstly, because of the results: maybe the "victicrat mentality" is finally on the wane. Secondly, because Time/CNN finds the results "surprising". It's been said that most scientific breakthroughs begin NOT when the scientist says "Eureka!", but rather when he says, "Hey, that's funny ..."

BTW, this poll is 10 years old now, further demonstrating how long it's been since racism has been a "big" problem. It would be nice if there would be a follow-up poll with those same participants. It would be nice to see if they kept their enthusiasm and strong sense of self-determinism.

Nothing?
UA:
"You want to talk about problems -- murders in Philadelphia?? -- Pah! I scoff on your murders in Philly! 230 murders is NOthing!"

And here I was just starting to like you, and have some respect for your opinions.

I don't think they've held the most recent funerals yet. Perhaps you can come and preach this enlightenment at them.

UA:
"But the point is -- If racism is a BIG PROBLEM -- a march that liberals are lock-step on -- then it requires big solutions. BUT -- it's not a "big" problem anymore. It hasn't been a "big" problem for decades"

Just so I don't feel like I'm talking (or writing) to a wall here, do you understand what I mean when I call these proclamations of the end of racism by Rightwing (Mostly White) Republicans self-serving? Kind of like when all the foxes assure you that the Henhouse is perfectly secure?

Like you, I DO believe that there has been progress, and that many racist practices have fallen by the wayside. I believe that one indication of that progress is that the Brothers now have advanced degrees and pursue their grievances through the court system as well as in the street with marches and signs.

BTW, I don't consider this kind of action a "BIG" solution to the problem of racism. It seems just about right, and while I can't speak for all Liberals I'm willing to live with the decision of the courts.


Oy vey, AGAIN With the Asians

Scooter, you SUCK at satire. Just state explicitly and clearly whatever it is that you are clumsily tying to imply.

Compared to Asteroid Strikes --
230 deaths compared to billions of deaths. Yah, it's nothing.

I guess you missed that comparison.


FLM: "And here I was just starting to like you, and have some respect for your opinions."

That's Ok, this ain't a popularity contest, and I'd lose anyway.


FLM: "Just so I don't feel like I'm talking (or writing) to a wall here, do you understand what I mean when I call these proclamations of the end of racism by Rightwing (Mostly White) Republicans self-serving? Kind of like when all the foxes assure you that the Henhouse is perfectly secure?"

I hear where you're coming from -- but while you complain about Republicans and conservatives proclaiming that racism is (mostly) dead, I don't hear much complaint about how most of the people stirring up the racial animosities happen to have an axe to grind, and a dollar to make.

Where would the NAACP be if they publically acknowledged the progress that's been made? Where would Jackson et al be without a microphone stuck in his face every time a news event involves a minority?

American blacks and blacks from other countries don't get along well, did you know that? Blacks from other countries say that American blacks "have a chip on their shoulder." Somehow, blacks in the U.S. from other countries manage to miss out on most of the discrimination.



FLM: "I believe that one indication of that progress is that the Brothers ... "

the "Brothers" ... ??? Are you trying to "get down with the lingo" or something? ??

Word!


... "now have advanced degrees and pursue their grievances through the court system as well as in the street with marches and signs. BTW, I don't consider this kind of action a "BIG" solution to the problem of racism. It seems just about right, and while I can't speak for all Liberals I'm willing to live with the decision of the courts."

The problem is, with people seeing racism hiding behind every tree, there are too many court cases. There are publicized incidents where employers deliberately try not to hire blacks, not because they're racist, but because they've been to court on baseless charges of racism. It's expensive to defend yourself in court, and as I've said, suing deep pockets these days is like buying lottery tickets.

So no, I must disagree -- fighting it out in the courts is too big a "solution" to a problem which has largely been fixed.

Flaming
My apologies for you not liking my SATIRE....

ASIANS are successful as a MINORITY when BLACKS are not (and thus require race based programs to help them).
The underlying premise on this is that past and present discrimination is the cause of this....

ASIANS prove otherwise... Thus all Race Based anything is useless and MEANINGLESS.

I'm trying to be funny and give you a reason for ASIAN success (other than the obvious hard work) by suggesting ASIANS are not discriminated against (like blacks are supposedly) because ASIANS are CUTE....
If we go with the HARD WORK answer then discrimination is a nonfactor..

Sorry again about the bad satire,,, (i do seem to be the only one laughing at my own jokes)

Scooter --
quoth scooter: "(i do seem to be the only one laughing at my own jokes)"

For what it's worth, this line made me laugh --

:-)

Anthony Thomas - - Insults Already?
Racism is today's "bogeyman". There are people out there who find it behind every tree.

No, reasonable people don't believe racism is the cause of all the ills of black Americans -- but not everyone is reasonable.

The main stream media, in particular, treat every allegation of racism as if it's already proven fact. They act surprised to find any situation which is NOT caused by racism.

The big problem today is not racism, but the knee-jerk belief that racism is still a problem. Employers are shaken down for alleged racism. Deep pockets are picked in the tort system over alleged racism. The Politics of Victimhood is alive and well, like a parasite, but also like a parasite, may kill its host.

If people like Larry Elder don't point out these kinds of idiocies, who will?

Now -- if his analysis is so "boneheaded" as you claim, it should be a simple matter for you PROVE the racism. Insulting people proves nothing.

Anthony -- on Balance
quoth AT: "Sir racism is not a "knee jerk belief".

In many cases, yes, it is. In far too many cases.

There are too many people who believe racism is still as bad today as it was 50 years ago, or 100 years ago. There are too many people who's behavior is contingent upon this belief. The mainstream media reinforces this belief.

Today, it has in fact become "knee-jerk".



AT: "It's a serious sickness that African American's have been fighting against (Yes, sometimes in a misguided way) since we were brought to this country."

Racism (or more appropriately "tribalism") has been a part and parcel of human psyche since time immemorial. Every nation that is and has ever been has has certain groups considered "second class".

Just ask the Jews.

The question today is, with the existence of racism (which can not be denied), ARE BLACKS (and other minorities) BEING HELD BACK. And if so, HOW MUCH.

You and yours like to make the case that racism is this horrible bogeyman that keeps blacks in the ghettos, prevents blacks from getting jobs, opening businesses, running for office, becoming successful. Sorry, it just ain't so. The statistics bear this out. We no longer have "Colored-Only Restrooms", nor "White-Only Companies".

Today, the BIG problem is blacks acting on the belief that it's impossible to succeed, because "The Man" is going to hold them back. So they stop trying. In actual fact, the worst "the man" is going to do is have someone make a slight detour. With determination and just a little hard work, there absolutely NOTHING "the man" can do to hold anybody down.

And liberals love to vilify anyone who makes such statements. Ask Bill Cosby. Larry Elder is constantly called "Uncle Tom", "Sambo", "Self-hating", etc. When he started his radio career, Walter Williams suggested to him that it might be prudent to carry a weapon. It appears a lot of people have a vested interest in continuing the Politics of Victimhood, and can't stand anyone breaking away from that lock-step. Sometimes some of them get violent.



AT: "the central point of my comments was that Larry Elder has historically in all his columns tried to invalidate ALL allegations of racism perpetrated against blacks. There is no balance in his columns."

Larry Elder *IS* the balance. Everywhere else you turn, you hear nothing except how horrible racism is, and how evil racists are, and how minorities are suffering for it. Like the radio broadcast that prompted this column. Whenever someone pontificates about blacks being held back by racism, no one in the mainstream media will ask the pertinent questions. They all just nod their heads in unison.

Where is the need for Elder to address the problems of racism when virtually every other news and opinion outlet in the mainstream media already covers that, more than adequately?



AT: "I know Mr. Elder helps you and many others feel justified in your misguided, misinformed and sometimes downright ignorant thoughts"

You should be careful to whom you aim such accusations. You don't know me and you don't know who I am. I do not speak from ignorance or lack of experience. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Once More on Institutionalized Racism
I want to reiterate a point I made earlier --

Probably the one clear-cut case where we still have vestiges of what can easily be called "Institutionalized Racism" is the War on Some Drugs.

Drug laws have a long history of targeting minorities. In my opinion, drug law enforcement still does today.

But this is literally "institutionalized", in that it is mostly our institutions, particularly our government institutions, that practice and perpetuate it. This problem would not exist in a Free Market (or rather, more free than what we have now.)

Take the drug laws off the books, and we can release the non-violent drug offenders currently serving time in our over-crowded prisons. Organized crime and street gangs will have a lot less to fight turf wars over, and a much smaller bottom line, hence reducing violence in our cities.

The real benefits outweigh the potential risks.

Another Point on Balance
quoth Unca Alby: "Larry Elder *IS* the balance."

This isn't strictly true, the way I said that.

As things are now, he's pretty well drowned out, his one voice (and a few others) against the cacophony of the mainstream media. Newspapers, broadcast TV and cable, all together make a powerful loud noise for liberal ideology. "Balance" in this case is like a Vespa scooter against an M1 tank.

Maybe if Elder had a hundred clones -- maybe.

Anthony Thomas - Fair's Fair
AT: "So please spare me the 'All societies have done bad rhetoric' "

It ain't "rhetoric" when it's true, and true is what it is.

Thank you very much for including Arabs in your list; there still exists slavery in some of these Muslim countries, even today. It makes it so ironic when so many blacks want to change their names to Muslim names.

Anyhow:

AT: "I have never said in any of my post that African American's are held back to the same degree that they were "50 to 100" years ago."

But you'll admit a lot of people DO. Jesse Jackson Jr. is on record having stated it publically. Deserved or not, he holds a lot of influence.


AT: "What I said was, racism still exists to some degree,"

WHICH NOBODY HAS ONCE EVER DENIED. Again, I'll reiterate -- what's important is HOW MUCH DOES IT HOLD ANYBODY BACK. My answer is, EXTREMELY LITTLE. The brick walls are down. All that remain are speed-bumps.


AT: "and that Larry Elder is very biased and slanted in his approach about racism,"

And I've already explained the reason behind his approach.

Further, he's never once claimed to be objective. He's not a news *reporter*. He's a news *commentator*. As such, he's allowed to have an opinion one way or another, and he's allowed to tell you that opinion.

As opposed to the NYT which *pretends* to be objective, but very often is liberal ideology disguised as news.


AT: "But please understand that these people [such as Jackson, Sharpton, et al] represent a minority amongst the minority and do not judge an entire race of people by this."

Where have you heard any judgments against an entire race of people?

What I've said is that this belief about racism is self-destructive, and that "too many" people hold this belief, and that this self-destructive belief is reinforced in the MSM.

I've gone on to say that the statistics indicate the belief is wrong, evidenced by more wealthy blacks, etc.

How could I talk about blacks with self-destructive beliefs, and also black business owners and millionaires, then stand accused of "judging an entire race of people"? This accusation makes no sense.

The biggest beef is not with blacks, even blacks with self-destructive beliefs, but with liberals in the media. You talk about Elder coming down on the side that racism is no longer the obstacle it once was; where is your talk about too much media hype about racism as if Wallace was still standing on the schoolhouse steps? You talk about Elder not being "balanced"; where's the "balance" in the "objective" MSM?

Then there's this little comment of yours:
"I know Mr. Elder helps you and many others feel justified in your misguided, misinformed and sometimes downright ignorant thoughts ("knee jerk belief") about race in this country,"

Now who's lumping entire groups of people together under a single judgment?

Further, you say, "I suggested you get your information about race elsewhere."

So tell me, Mr. "Speaking as an African American", what makes you think your information is any better than mine?

Not a 'Good' Chance
UA:
"230 deaths compared to billions of deaths. Yah, it's nothing.I guess you missed that comparison"

UA:
"Do you know that there's a very good chance that a mile-wide asteroid could strike the Earth at ANY MINUTE and WIPE OUT LIFE AS WE KNOW IT?? We'd all go the way of the dinosaurs.

And that's a FACT"

This STUPID, OFFENSIVE, and FACTUALLY WRONG bit of idiocy of yours is mostly irrelevant to the main points of our discussion (about which we aren't really that far apart), so I don't like spending much time on it. I brought up the issue of the murder rate in Philadelphia merely to illustrate that a problem can be a big one even if it effects a tiny number of people. Now, it is true that being the victim of prejudice isn't as bad as being the victim of murder, but it still is not a good thing to be the victim of, and far more people are subject to being so victimized than have been murdered in Philadelphia this year.

The chances that "a mile-wide asteroid could strike the Earth at ANY MINUTE and WIPE OUT LIFE AS WE KNOW IT" are NOT "GOOD". In an infinite Universe they aren't really knowable at all, but empirically (it has yet to happen while we humans inhabit the planet) they seem tiny. (Maybe that's what's good about them.)

OTOH the 234 (as of 7/25 AM) Philadelphians are DEFINITELY DEAD, and leave behind grieving Wives, Husbands, Parents, and Children. Don't "spit" on them.

It's too late at night to keep writing . . .

Flaming --
FLM: "This STUPID, OFFENSIVE, and FACTUALLY WRONG bit of idiocy of yours"

Well, it may be offensive -- but it ain't wrong.

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers.

I watch the Discovery Channel all the time. There have been a number of shows on that subject. There *is* a *real* chance of being stuck by an asteroid. It might not be a *large* chance, but it is *not* infinitesimal.

If it happens, none of us will be here to argue about it.

Rush would be appalled
UA:

"Well, it may be offensive -- but it ain't wrong....I watch the Discovery Channel all the time. There have been a number of shows on that subject. There *is* a *real* chance of being stuck by an asteroid. It might not be a *large* chance, but it is *not* infinitesimal."

Do you believe everything you're told on TV? Next thing you know, you'll start believing AL Gore and all those alarmist scientists about Global Warming!


Flaming --
FLM: "Do you believe everything you're told on TV?"

No. Do you?

FLM: "Next thing you know, you'll start believing AL Gore and all those alarmist scientists about Global Warming!"

So where did you get *your* facts about global warming?

(Personally, as far as Al Gore is concerned, I'd ask for independent verification if he said he'd just received a Susan B. Anthony dollar in his change at the Post Office.)

Joe -- Another Whiner
quoth Joe: "So who is to blame for this problem?"

If you want an answer: the main stream media, and their fascination with presenting titillation before information, and their constant ideology disguised as news.

J: "You should try to change and solve this problem, instead of just talking about it."

You should try doing a little research before making baseless accusations: Elder *does* "do something" to solve the problem. I daresay considerably more than anything *you've* ever done.

Hey JOE
Great Comments,,,,, BUT,,, i'm a little confused,,, you see ASIANS (the cute MINORITY) are doin better than Blacks, Hispanics, Whites,, YOU NAME IT RACE....ETC.

Why is that? (here's a hint,, it has to do with them being CUTE)
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