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Thursday, July 12, 2007
Larry Elder :: Townhall.com Columnist
Moore's "Sicko" Is Sickening
by Larry Elder
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Nearly 50 million "Americans" lack health-care insurance. At least, director Michael Moore makes this claim in "Sicko," his new "documentary" about America's supposedly awful health-care system.

Nearly 50 million Americans without health-care insurance? For what it's worth, the Centers for Disease Control puts the number of uninsured at 43.6 million, and the Census Bureau at 44.8 million.

First, understand that lack of health-care "insurance" does not mean a lack of health care. Many emergency rooms, by law, provide medical care to anyone who walks in, whether an illegal or legal resident of this country.

Second, when Moore asserts that 50 million Americans lack health care insurance, he most assuredly includes some of the estimated 11 million to 20 million illegal aliens living here. Of people born in America, 86 percent have health-care coverage. For non-citizens, only 57 percent have health-care insurance.

Now examine those who lack health-care insurance.

Nearly half go without health insurance only for four months or less, usually while between jobs. Others with employment could easily add health-care insurance through their work for a very small premium. Many without health-care insurance consist of young people (18 million uninsured are between the ages of 18 and 34) who consider themselves -- given their youth and good health -- unlikely to face large health-care costs.

Over 14 million of the uninsured, according to the Census Bureau, live in households earning $50,000 or more annually. Over 7 million are in households earning more than $75,000 a year. These people could afford health-care insurance, either out-of-pocket or by making minor adjustments to their lifestyles. A small number of the uninsured include criminals. Should taxpayers provide health care for them, as well?

"Sicko" followed the travails of Americans with health-care insurance -- their squabbles with their providers, denials of treatment by insurance companies, their dissatisfaction with the unwillingness of insurance companies to cover certain procedures. But according to an ABC News-Kaiser Family Foundation-USA Today survey, 89 percent of Americans with health-care insurance say they are, in fact, satisfied with the quality of care they receive.

To "solve" health care, Moore wants America to adopt a European or Canadian style of universal health-care, or single-payer system. Does Moore really expect Americans to tolerate long lines for services, months-long delays for important, critically necessary operations and procedures, and the rationing that inevitably occurs with a government-takeover of health care?

Canada? A recent government study said that only half of ER patients received health care in a timely fashion. Lindsay McCreith of Ontario was supposed to wait four months for an MRI, and then wait several months more to see a neurologist for his malignant brain tumor. But instead, McCreith -- like many other ill Canadians -- came to the United States for life-saving surgery.

England? The country's socialist Labor Party now favors privatization and expects, within two years, to triple the number of private-sector surgical procedures.

France? Nearly 13,000 people died in the summer of 2003. Why? The number suffering from the heat so overwhelmed the French health-care system that hospitals simply stopped answering their phones and ambulance attendants told people to take care of themselves. The majority of the 13,000 died from simple dehydration.

To address the "crisis" of the medically uninsured, Moore follows down the same dreary path of those who wish to improve America's education -- ignoring the benefits of competition. Why, for example, do elective medical procedures -- those not covered by health-care insurance -- become increasingly affordable? Cosmetic surgery procedures, nose jobs, breast implants, hair grafts, facelifts and vision-corrective eye surgery steadily decline in price.

Stifling regulations, price controls and outright attacks on free market medicine make things worse. A decade ago, an entrepreneur who operates a for-profit medical school in the Caribbean island of Dominica attempted to build one in America. He scouted the country and figured that Wyoming's doctor shortage created ideal conditions for a for-profit medical school. Compared to the national average of one doctor for every 441 people, Wyoming had only one doctor for every 642 people.

But local doctors pounded the table, warning that the medical school would produce unqualified doctors. Never mind that 92 percent of students graduating from his off-shore medical school passed their U.S. basic level tests on their first try, a slightly higher rate than the U.S. and Canadian average. Wyoming doctors and the national accrediting agency for medical schools successfully fought the proposed school.

If you consider our current health-care system "Sicko," just wait until Dr. Moore takes charge.

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About The Author
Larry Elder is a syndicated radio talk show host and best-selling author. His latest book, "What's Race Got to Do with It?" is available now.
 
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Excellent Piece
Say, Larry, were you EVER able to get Moore on your show?

Good work Larry!
Anyone who has done ANY reading on this issue knows the truth of what you say.

Mike Moose would have been FAR more credible if he had taken 3 Cuban peasants in for Cuba's "wonderful" health care- I hear they don't see much of it.

We should also keep in mind that those, like Moose, who want nothing but mediocrity for us will never have to bear what they wish to impose on the rest of us.

Run over
Got in an accident a couple months ago and required Life flight and the whole enchilada,,,

Talkin with my Bro in-law about it,,, he let me know how bad our health care is... (insinuating we need Moores approach).. He lives in Portland i should have expected...

Anyway,,, after i told him of the specialists and the quick action taken upon me for my help,,, I assured him I have no intention or desire to go to a mediocre govt. run system...

He can't get his facts straight.
It's seems that Free Willy aka Michael Moore can't get his facts straight.

Superb column, Mr. Elder.
You said, "To "solve" health care, Moore wants America to adopt a European or Canadian style of universal health-care, or single-payer system. Does Moore really expect Americans to tolerate long lines for services, months-long delays for important, critically necessary operations and procedures, and the rationing that inevitably occurs with a government-takeover of health care?

Well, what Moore REALLY means is that the solution he proposes applies to everyone else BUT him. Do you think that guy is going to wait in line for his coronary angiogram and 5 vessel bypass??? No way, he will use his obscene profits from his absurd movies to pay his way to the top of the line.

Sicko
Dear Larry, I completely agree with you on health care in the United States, everyone has health care, all they have to do is go to an emergency room and they are taken care of, while the taxpayers are paying the cost. What is wrong with the people in Washington that they can't figure this out?
My son-in-law was an emergency technician in Orange County, he said the undocumented aliens called 911 for any little cut on their finger or a cold.
What is to become of this country Larry?
Sincerely,
Marilyn Stovall

Free Market, Universal? We have neither
If private insurance, Medicaid, Medicare, state tax monies and county tax monies were taken completely out of the equation, health care providers would have to be efficient, provide great customer service, automate and compete. Health care should be AFFORDABLE like any other expense in life. Like any other product or service, the market should provide options at different price ranges. When your health insurance company pays $5 for a cotton ball, they make health care not affordable without insurance and that works in the insurance company's favor. When government pays megabucks for seniors' medicines, medicines go up 300%; so now they NEED government to live. Now seniors NEED to have the government squeeze their neighbors for more taxes or obtain it by force of law. This is enslavement. This is tyranny. They destroy other options because they corrupt the other options. We don't have universal health care but neither do we have a free market. I support Ron Paul's free market vision for health care.

mycos & Rocker
You can't be for real. It is a sad day when you can't see what is right in front of your nose.

To paraphrase: What's up with the constant America Bad everyone else good?

If you were to do a little research, or even entertain the possibility that Elder's article might shed some light on this subject, you might find that Michael Moore is a propagandist. But in your warped world-view, we need to move in lock-step with the other countries' "Better plan."

Why is it so difficult to realize that the USA is unique in the annals of history? What is to be gained by denegrating our nation that is the envy of the world? Why do you want to have the goverment involved in your health care decisions?

If you think that any socialized medical plan is the best solution to the non-crisis in medical care in this country, you just aren't keeping up with the literature out there.

Lack of insurance coverage is not the same thing as a "medical crisis."

The only crisis we are facing is a serious lack of medical personnel (especially nurses) because we don't have enough schools to train them.

Tort reform would help. Free market would help. Less government regulation would help. Less taxes would help. Belief in self-reliance would help. Pulling the plug on Michael Moore would help, but that's too late, he's already laughing all the way to the bank.


Mycos and rocker
It is so typical of libs, the facts don't count.

You like Mikey Moron think that Social Security is a successful program.

In approxiamtely 20 years Medicare will cost $28 trillion.

Moron states that it would be better if we stopped funding a $100 billion war. It would take 280 years of war to fund Medicare.

But I apologize for confusing you with the facts.

rocker
Bring your wife and children up here to live (not visit, LIVE) in Kanukistan for five years (I have lived here 10 years now). Wake up one hot summer evening to find your baby feverish and suffering. You have no family doctor -- you have been trying for the whole five years to find one but none is available in your postal code (you must be assigned to a doctor in your postal code in Ontario). You take your baby to the nearest emergency room and find it packed to the doors with everything from gunshot wounds to women in labour, to elderly women lying on stretchers in the packed hallways, to homeless people raving and panhandling among the sick and suffering. Your wife had to drop you off two blocks from the hospital because the parking lot and entrance are clogged with ambulances that cannot unload their patients. The harassed overworked nurse cannot speak to you; she has a line longer than the post office at Christmas. She tells you to take a seat. There are no seats.

You ask her how long the wait will be. She just rolls her eyes. It is likely you will be at the hospital for another two hours before you even reach her desk. You and your baby will not be seen until 2:00 a.m. or so at which time the overworked doctor will tell you to take her home and put her in a cool bath, checks your name off and sends you home.

If you choose, you can take your baby to a walk-in clinic during the day. You will sit there for five hours without food, water or attention, and you will be told the same thing.

Now multiply that by 350,000,000 and you have Universal Health Care.

But here in Canada you have one choice that should the USA get Universal Health Care will not be available to you: you can put your wife and baby in the car and drive two hours to Buffalo. This option is the only thing that saves lives up here, enough so the system can appear to be working.

Think about that.


Mycos and rocker
So, in other words, your solution...

...is to kill people.

The dirty little secret that all the advocates of socialized medicine simply don't want to face is that the United States has the finest health care in the world. The Left likes to make a bif deal about how many people are uninsured in this country (though the Census Bureau expressly concedes that their more accurate survey puts the figure in the 23 million range) and that approximately 18,000 people die in the US due to delaying receipt of care (which includes much more than people who are uninsured) but the cold hard reality is that, on a per capita basis, just as many people die from the rationing of care that is inevitable under socialist health systems and even more are forced to endure pain and suffering waiting to receive treatment.

Another favorite point made by the left is how much more is spent on halthcare in the US. Set aside for the moment the fact that there is a huge correlation between overall prosperity levels and the percentage of GDP that societies choose to spend on health care. Set aside the fact that much of the medical expensitures in this country are concentrated at the very beginning and very end of life when extraordinary measures are taken in this country and simply foregone due to rationing in other systems. Set aside the concealment of costs relaed to the health care system in the socialistic bureaucracy that make comparisons suspect and consider that the costs in the US are inflated by a not insignificant amount by all those fleeing socialist systems to get care here because they can't afford to wait.

It's bad enough that access to care has been curtailed and costs have skyrocketed in this country as a DIRECT result of previous government intervention, suggesting that the chief cause of the problem be the one to "fix" it is simply irrational.

Now, I know the temptation to dig into the bag of tricks and discuss infant mortality and life expectancy (which are essentially useless in assessing the comparability of actual health care) and I know somebody is just waiting to whip out the WHO survey that ostensibly ranked US healthcare 37th (when, in reality, it really just measured insurance coverage which is entirely different and not even accurate), but stud after study has shown that if you want to see your doctor more quickly and for a longer period of time and if you want to have the best possible chance of surviving cancer or heart disease or you need vital surgery, you'd better pray to all that you hold sacred that you get care in the United States.

Forget Moore's latest distortion-fest. Se "Dead Meat" to get a real idea about health care in Canada or go to the Fraser Institute and see the stats on waiting periods in Canada (and their lethality) and, if you are a liberal and choose to believe that they are a right-wing outfit, feel free to go to Health Canada - the official source - and see that their data tells exactly the same story.

Compassion is a wonderful thing, but compassion without intellect is destructive.

And socialism kills.

Free market solution
Health care and drugs would be a lot cheaper if the government would keep their nose out of it. Let the market work! If you really want to see what a broken system is, lets look at Russian and socialism back lets say in the 1970's early 1980's. Tell me, does anyone really want to live under those conditions? Let's educate ourselves on what CAPITALISM is really about and how it makes things better for all of us.

sicko
Reality check for us Americans. Why it is costing an average American $5,000 to $7,000 per year in health care, while our neighbor, Cuba, is only $251. In terms of health care system, we rank 37 just two notches above Cuba, a third world country. Why are we spending approximately 20 to 30 times more than Cuba, and our healthcare system is marginally better. Wouldn't that be a cause for concern.

Moore's "Sicko"
Moore's hyperbole notwithstanding, his answer to legitimate problems in US health care is to make it universal, but this cure would be worse than the current disease. But before I continue lets dispense with the phrase "health care", for we are talking about "medical services", and the two are not the same.
Has anyone wondered what would happen to the cost of medical service in the US if medical insurance was completely private? Private means that carrying medical insurance would be voluntary. Being voluntary, the number of people that would carry medical insurance would decrease dramatically. (Think for a moment how many people think about buying insurance for things far more critical than medical service like food or water.) Since the number of people that pay only out of pocket would skyrocket, medical dollars would become scarce to those who sell the service, and the cost of medical services would plummet. Prices would be driven down to exactly what the market would bear. If fact, seventy five years ago, that is precisely the system in place in this country.
Doctors are under the laws of economics just like anyone else. In a free market, they would need to price their services at what people are able and willing to pay, or else go bankrupt. Would this system be perfect? No. But it would be capitalism, the most equitable system yet devised on earth. It would surely be far more equitable than the quasi-socialist system in place now.
John

KenLangston
You hit many of the nails right on the head. I'm sure you know where the beginning of all the insurance ills you mentioned began; it was with John Edwards' predecessors in the legal profession. Now, before those of you out there who feel the urge to lecture about incidents of malpractice begin, I do understand the need for professional and ethical watchdogs over all service-type endeavors. Final punishment for honest mistakes or outright malpractice levied by judges and jurists initially ran poor performing physicians out of business. Now, because of the insurance requirements stemming from earlier judgements, physicians and dentists are levied with practically unmanageable malpractice protection right out of the gate.

You know when, even a judge feels justified to sue for millions over a missing pair of pants, our litigious nature has gotten a bit out of hand.

Anyone who thinks government is the ...
solution is Crazy/Stupid/Liar .....
government created HMO's ... first step toward a meddlesome beaurarcracy.
We need another level of entrenched, expensive, immobile government employees; it will help solve that other figment of democrat imaginaion ... massive unemployment.
Hi. I'm from the government and I'm here to help you. Lovers of government .... Go Away! Don't Go Away Mad. Just Go Away!

Whyicare re:Sicko
If the care is so great in Cuba, why did Castro have to bring in doctors from Spain?

Re: difference in costs, I have a question. What percentage of the average Cuban's salary is $251..

The BBC says "The raw figures might seem low but in Cuba - where the average monthly salary is around $15, and accommodation health care and education are free,"15x 12 = 180.

You neglect to say the figures you cite are from the WHO and they say "it finds that France provides the best overall health care followed among major countries by Italy, Spain, Oman, Austria and Japan"

Next time tell the whole story.




why is the solution always insurance?
Why is the solution to the helth care problem always insurance? Cheaper insurance, government subsidized insurance, universal insurance - it doesn't matter what you call it - it's insurance. Could it be the concept of insurance and that industry that is causing major problems in our health care industry? That doesn't even include the cost doctors pay for mal-practice insurance.

Insurance coverage for a family can run close to $1000 per month (if you entirely pay for it yourself). The cost of a "well-check" check-up at my doctor's office is $125.00. So, for the average person who doesn't have chronic illness or problems, goes to the doctor once, maybe twice a year - the cost to their insurance company is (and I'll be generous) $300.00 (and don't forget you pay a co-pay $5 - $25.00 per visit in addition to your premium). Who's making the money here? The insurance company.

Oh, yes, let's get universal health care where everyone ends up forking over more $$ in taxes to pay for this wonderful coverage - as the insurance companies laugh all the way to the bank.

Rip away!

Stupid Americans
Man are you people ever stupid.

Anyone in their right mind would never give up Canada's free health care for a paid American one.

This joker who wrote this article might be right about what he said in regards to the US but he's way off when it comes to Canada. I live here, I work here, I have family in the medical professions.

And to the yokle above who said he lives in Ontario, well so did I for several years. If your case isn't as high a priority as others you wait until they get to you, that's a part of the price you have to pay for FREE service. OMG I had to wait 2 hours to see a doctor. BOO FRIGGIN HOO!

The wait times are not very long when you consider how many people they treat and how long of hours they work. GROW UP! You need to educate yourself before you shoot your mouth off.

Like all Americans, you always think you know best or that you're always right. Yeah we know how that worked out for you in Iraq and Vietnam didn't we?

Yeah you're always right... sure.

Grow up, you sound stupid when you think you're always right.

Whyicare
U.S. healthcare system is only marginally better than Cuba's? Are you out of your mind!?

Oh, and masslib, accept AudiR10's invitation to try out Canada's system for awhile. You're not that far from the border.

Bess2728 writes:
you are correct ... want affordable health care? Get the insurance companies out of it. Remember, the insurance companies didn't oppose Hillary on a moral issue. They would have loved all of that government money guaranteed. They objected to the way she structured it.
Had the whole thing been under the industries aegis they would have been bombarding us with the wonders and mirale of government and would be floating Hillary all kinds of campaign money.
Always follow the money trail ..

A little aside ... who do you suppose loves high estate taxes and why?

Name one thing
that the govt does more effectively and efficiently than the private sector (other than national defense). Just one.

Retirement? ehh! LBJ, Carter and Gore screwed that up royally. SS used to be in trust and wasn't subject to income tax at one time. Forget about the deplorable 2% return (if that).

Postal Service? Ehh! FedEx and UPS are killing them and actually making money.

Education? Ehh! I have first hand experience with this as my wife is a teacher. The amount of bureaucratic red tape is unbelievable. Anyone that tells you there's not enough being spent on education is LYING.

Name one thing the gov't is doing better than the private sector. Just one.

Healthcare? Are you kidding me?

Average Joe
WOW! Are we a jealous Canuck or what? You went from health care to Iraq and Vietnam and you say we sound stupid? You need more spice in your food.

Free Healthcare?
If anyone calls it Free Healthcare one more time, I am going to commit "hari cari."

IT'S NOT FREE! How can it be free? Nothing is free. Least of all healthcare. It's called jacking up the tax rates on the productive people of society to pay for everyone else's healthcare.

It is not free!

Ahem, mycos and rocker...
****WATCH ME ROLL MY EYES****

Dearest mycos....
You write very beautifully.

Too bad there's not one grain of truth in your post.

Deluded liberals
Reality check for US socialists. Only a blithering idoit still references the (long debunked) ranking of US healthcare as 37th. If you want to enjoy the "wonders" of Cuban healthcare, by all means move to the Carribbean paradise.

Reality check for Massachusetts liberals. Yes (gasp) there are people in the US who fall through the creacks including the woman who died in an emergency room. Blame the hybrid (government manipulated) system we have here if you want but don't pretend that it is in any way indicative of the norm in this country, particularly when, in a single year, 170 people in Ontario alone were condemned to death because they had to wait for a single procedure - heart surgery - 70 died outright and 100 were removed from the list becasue they could no longer survive the surgery. Your "solution" is worse than the problem.

Reality check for Canadian liberals. The reality is waiting periods in your beloved homeland that can last more than a year which is wht so very many of your countrymen flee south of the border and pay for care out of their own pockets. Stupidity is better described as looking at the Canadian system and dismissing wait times as "not too long" when even health Canada concedes that it typically takes weeks to see a doctor, months to see a specialist and even longer to get diagnostic or surgical treatment.

Here's a piece of advice I came across that is particularly relevant for those making such absurd comments in the face of the available facts: "Grow up, you sound stupid when you think you're always right."

rocker
“Whats up with the constant "america good", everyone else bad.”

I see you are back to bash your own country again. We have this "America good" thing because Americans are proud of their country and what it stands for. Or else, they wouldn’t be living here. I know it is hard for liberals to understand that concept. For the rest of us, it comes quite naturally.

Shimon
>>How does one respect a Government that says, we know what's best for you, but no way in hell, do we want it for ourselves and our families.


Well, in America our politicians put THEIR children in pricey private schools while dictating that their constituents deal with a broken public education system, while our pols take big campaign bucks from "teachers" unions. This is a clear conflict of interest.

On a different topic:

As for France and the deaths due to the heat, this would seem to prove their aversion to bathing. No matter how hot it gets, one can run a bathtub full of cool water. When people are willing to die to avoid bathing, the absence of these people raises the national average IQ.

Note that France just elected a reasonable person to lead their country, an incremental step toward national sanity.



Average Joe
If your Canadian health care system is so good, why is it that almost any hospital within 50 miles of your border is clogged with patients visiting from the Great North in for elective proceedures?
Why is health care expensive? We have hidden the costs inside the price of everything we buy. For many years, the most expensive component of a Big 3 automobile is the health insurance for employees and retirees. This creates the illusion that health care is, or should be free. The left says that because we need health care to make our lives better, it should be provided to everyone without cost. Holy sh*t, a Ferrari would make my life a whole lot better, will they buy one for me? I doubt it.

Fletch
Fine post. Accurate and convincing.

Your Canadian example is perfect. I have spoken to many Canadians, and there is one common theme. Socialized medicine was heaven in the beginning when there was plenty of money, but it quickly became hell when the government ran out of money. Sounds like social security and Medicare, doesn’t it? Taxes went up, up, up. Doctors fled the country because they were being told what procedures the government will pay for and how much. No new doctors were coming out of the universities because the best and brightest didn’t see medicine as an attractive profession anymore.

Thank goodness
Moore said there were nearly 50 million uninsured Americans and fortunately the number is between 43.6 and 44.8. We sure dodged a bullet there. 44.8 is no where near 50. Folks, Moore is not a news man or propagandist. He is an entertainer like Mr. Rush (ha ha) Limbaugh. You should listen to his radio show or watch his zany antics on line. Every time he gets cornered by a tasteless exaggeration, he is no longer a newsman or commentator, he’s an entertainer. Also, did you know that Moore is (ha ha) obese? Gee, remember when those mean liberals made fun of Limbaugh’s weight or his drug abuse or his (ha ha) need for Viagra? It reminds me of when of an earlier movie of Moore’s that included an animated sequence. Elder thought that was so wrong that in his response movie, which played just as fast and loose with the facts, he too included a cartoon. Of course, Moore’s movie includes a generic animation about the history of guns in America while Elder’s was a characterization of a (ha ha) very obese Moore who’s clumsy replies to Elder’s brilliant question were (I’m sure) just like it would be in real life.

Folks only a fool would take Moore seriously; you know, like Elder does.

103.5 degrees
My daughter with asthma had a 103.5 degree temp. I called her ped's office and it was unusual, but they were too full to see her. I had been going to that office for 10 years and they knew our history, so I was angry. Pediatricians are the only people who should evalute pediatric lungs, so I was unwilling to tak a very sick child to an ER or Urgent care to wait hours for evaluation. I opened the yellow pages, prayed and asked God to find me a pediatrician who would see her NOW. I called until I found one and we've been going to that office ever since. She had pneumonia and would've died in Canada.

Can we keep our free market system? It works.

Thanks for this great article.

FWIW
As they say, "back in the day" my father was the only physician in a little country town with a population estimated at 3000. I think that included horses and cows. He ran a six bed hospital with two nurses, one of whom was my mother when she could get away from the house.

Our telephone had a crank on it, and if you wanted to make a call, you had to crank like mad and wait for the operator, who lived across the street, to respond. She'd answer and we'd say "Hey, Esther, could you connect me with so-n-so." Anyway, my father would see patients at the hospital during the day, and then make housecalls to those unable to get to town whenever he could. Visualize this - 2:00 AM. Esther (or her son, Fred) "Hello Doc, sorry to bother you at this time, but Sarah's about to deliver and they sure would appreciate it if you could come over."

My dad delivered many, many babies in his lifetime, and quite a few were homeborn.

Country people will pay their bills as best they can. It wasn't unusual for someone to come to our door with eggs, or plucked chickens, vegetables and so forth. They even brought money sometimes. My mother, ever practical, would insist that bills be sent. My father would say OK but don't be a pest.

This town actually had a train track running right through it; and, yes, there was a "colored" section of the populace on the "other side of the tracks." I mentioned that to say this; there was never cause for concern when my brothers and I crossed those tracks because, we were Doc ____'s kids. As an aside, racial inequity certainly existed back then, but my dad didn't pay any attention to that. He had patients to take care of.

As you all know, because of many of the reasons stated prior to this post why our healthcare system has changed, I don't think Old Dad would make it today. I'm not the only one who should be sad about that.


Said it before...
I'll say it again. I live on the Canadian border and all I know is that there is a mobile MRI scanner sitting on the border that is utilized by Canadians paying cash for scans. I also understand that it is illegal for Canadian citizens to pay for health care. I'm just not ready for rationed health care.
However, if it does come to universal health care I opt to have the same coverage as our politicans. What are the chances of that??

average joe
Have you or any members of your family used the mobile MRI scanner sitting on the border in Lewiston, NY??? Is it still illegal for Candadians to pay for health care services?? How many Candadians have care at the Cleveland Clinic??

Phylo
Just what has the gov't ever done for you to trust that universal healthcare would be more efficient than the current system.

Unfortunately, the gov't has proven time and again that the more involved they get in our lives, the more of a mess they make of our lives.

This is not anecdotal. Gov't is, by and large, inefficient.

Rationing is already here
Conservatives are always quick to raise the cry of "rationing!" whenever the subject of health care arises. They seem to think that rationing is something done only by awful, inefficient national health care systems. No, rationing is done by health care providers and health insurers. Every health insurance plan I've ever seen has a list of procedures that it will not cover. Every drug prescription service includes some drugs in its formulary and excludes others. Many such services require doctors to "pre-approve" some drugs (as if the doctor's original prescription wasn't "approval" enough). These services may have a multi-tier system that requires a patient to start off on the least expensive drug for a problem before allowing the patient's doctor to determine what drug the patient will use.

Suppose your doctor orders a diagnostic procedure such as an MRI. If you're in an HMO, that request hits the computer screen of someone who does "utilization review." That person, who usually has no medical training of any kind, checks the request against a set of criteria the HMO uses to limit access to the procedure.

All of this looks like "rationing" to me. Americans don't see a problem with it because it is done by the private sector.

So let's not delude ourselves into thinking that health care and services are not rationed; conservatives object only to government rationing. Private sector rationing is just fine for them.

kadima
If she had pneumonia and would have died, she should have gone to the emergency room. Thank God you don’t live in some sections of this country either. You may have found the phone book thin, the selection few and the distance great. If any child’s temp runs that high for more than a few minutes, seek care immediately. It doesn’t matter what country you live in if you are going to make the wrong decision.

Shimon
I don’t know. Shooting Rabbits in a bucket sounds interesting. Isn’t that Cheney’s style of hunting?

KenLangston, Chopper John
As far as I can tell, no one who's wildly advocating for "universal health care" is addressing these costs of malpractice/liability insurance that practitioners, institutions, manufacturers of drugs and medical supplies etc. must pay to avoid financial ruin in the case of a lawsuit. Presumably, these entities must continue to pay these costs, which will skyrocket—and be passed to the taxpayers—when the sheer inefficiency of socialized medicine enters the equation and the “unfavorable outcomes” begin multiplying.

Despite all the advances, medicine is not and never will be an exact science. However, led by the tort bar, people have come to believe that any unfavorable medical outcome MUST be somebody's fault, and that somebody had better pay up. The reality is that factors that have nothing to do with either the competence of the physician or the validity of the treatment can influence a patient’s recovery or lack thereof. No matter. When s**t happens, sue.

The malpractice lawyers must be licking their chops.

My experience
My experience with breast cancer. I was diagnosed with invasive breast cancer and within six weeks I had had surgery to remove the lump, and finished radiation, saw the oncologist, and was given a clean bill of health. Breast cancer used to be a death sentence for women. The radiation was a five day procedure that a new company put on the market five years ago called Mammosite and the radiation now takes five days instead of six weeks, and it only irradiates the tumor bed instead of the whole breast. This is important because once the whole breast is irradiated, the next tumor means you cannot have radiation again. Your only medical option is mastectomy. With Mammosite, you can treat the new tumor with radiation, and keep your breast. Yes, I am having a dispute with my insurer who does not want to pay for the new procedure, but they paid for the radiation by "accident", and now we are only squabbling about the pay to the surgeon to implant the Mammosite device. The insurer, by the way, is Blue Cross Blue Shield. I have an external review pending right now by the State Commissioner of Insurance, and I expect to win. BCBS says the Mammosite is investigational because the university I work for has chosen to pay for less coverage than Blue Cross Blue Shielf of North Carolina where the BCBS told me through a nurse that Mammosite is becoming the standard care for women with breast cancer. So, yeah, there are issues, but the speed and efficiency with which I was cared for is not something I would give up for socialized medical treatment. I remember reading a story about an Olympic skater, Russian, who fell and cracked open his skull. The other skaters had to round up the gauze and medicines and bring him food in what passed for a hospital there. It was shocking, and this skater was, under the Soviet system, one of their propaganda elite who should have received their best care. Also, the Soviets let an influx of women into the doctor profession, so the men left because it was no longer high prestige. Medical care in the Soviet Union was a joke. Another socialist people's paradise.
Posters like redstates and Masslib and rocker and averagejoe are able and willing to bash America for other ideological reasons and jump on Moore's bandwagon, but what they lack is a basic understanding of economics. They, like most liberals, are basing this on their visceral dislike of America (the war comments were esp. trenchant and revealing) and their ignorance of capitalism and free market economys as the engine of individual freedom. I have a homework assignment for them: Read Frederich Hayek. Start with The Road to Serfdom. Educate yourself before next you open your big yap and expose your ignorance and prejudice for all to see.

If you think Socialized Medicine....
is the answer, ask any veteran of the US Military what their experiences with it were. My guess is that they will give a less than positive response. I served over 26 years and the horror stories I could tell are legion.

Okay, Its all about the Insurance.
The number of the uninsured is always the drum that gets beaten by the politicians. So, lets look at it that way.

Worse case (unlikely) 50 million uninsured. The U.S. population 301,139,947 (July 2007 est.).
That means 17% of the population is uninsured. Quickly drops further if you include the temporarily uninsured etc... So our system works for 83% of the population, looking at worse case!

Being that both systems are not perfect and do different things well. Why would you trash a system that works for the vast majority of the population for a system that may or may not do the same!!

The old trite saying "We would be throwing the baby out with the bath water" if we switched. Not to mention the high price we would be forced to pay for the switch. All for a system that has not shown to be any better then the one we have now.

No Thanks you can keep your socialism.

SFASU7392
Are you suggesting that our president and congress don’t really care about our soldiers after all? Gee it’s funny how the Democrats can destroy a system in just 6 months. If only we had a Republican president and congress. They would never have let this happen, especially during a war. Who would have thought that war could produce injured and crippled veterans?

RD2MK
"I realize the best Conservative fact is one with no basis in fact, but could you please give the info on this study??"

This is called "projection". There are actually numerous such studies. A summary of a book that looked at several can be found here:

https://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3627+

Data on waiting periods in Canada and how deadly they are can be found directly from the Canadian government (Health Canada) and from the Fraser Institute.

The figure of 170 rationing of care deaths realted to a single medical procedure on a relative basis equates to about 4,000 deaths in this country. Imagine just how many more deaths are related to still other procedures and the (overstated) 18,000 deaths (6 per 100,000 people) attributed to lack of insurance in this country suddenly looks low by comparison.

"Many Canadians live over 500 miles from a city with a population greater than 100K. How many places in the U.S. can you go where you are 500 miles from a small city??"

How again does that explain the long waiting periods AFTER seeing the first doctor to see a specialist, to get diagnostic procedures and ultimately to get treatment? Here's a clue: it doesn't.

"Rand"y
I am happy for you for your successful bout with breast cancer.

How is it that an employee in academia become a conservative? Were you once a liberal who got converted by you personal experience with our medical system?

If Michael Moore gets brain cancer (I think he already has it), will he seek treatment in the US or will he go to Cuba? We know the answer.

No insurance
I have chosen not to have health insurance because I prefer to keep "myself" healthy. Eat right, walk and exercise works. 66, take no supplements or vitamins and take no chemical drugs (that's what drs. prescribe), have no health issues and lots of energy. Rather have that than health insurance which everytime you have a health issue you get aggravation and everytime you take chemical drugs you cause more problems in your body. Guess what - I am a conservative, not a health-nut liberal.

Larry speaks the truth -- again.
I live across the river from Windsor, Ontario, and have been a close friend of faculty members of the University of Windsor for many years. The number of Canadians coming across the river for treatment here is a constant flow with the same reason; waiting for months or even years for critical treatment.

One of the real shockers is that if you have a "death's door" problem, you'll be taken care of quickly, but only if you're not too old.

Many Canadians do boast of their "free" medical treatment. I've listened to them saying just that, but they make the trip to the U.S. for critical care. They have admitted that.

Another good job, Mr. Elder. Keep the sober truth coming.


SICKO

I sell health insurance and I can tell you there are many who can afford the insurance, but opt not to buy it. They would rather spend the money on something else. Remember that when you hear how many Americans do not have it.

Clark Graeve

Phylo and Gestell
The "evidence" that you have seen suffers only from the problem that it is completely bogus.

There are ample resources indicating that care in the US is superior to that offered under socialist systems (I've touched on but a few).

And the rationing that occurs in this country (excluded procedures, prescription formularies) exist in AT LEAST the same measure under socialist systems and the rationing of care in the form of long waiting periods of which we speak is in ADDITION to that.

Much has been made about how many die in the US from lack of care (18,000 or 6 per 100,000). But extrapolate the Ontario figure of 170 deaths waiting for just a single procedure and that equates to about 4,000 deaths in a population of our size. Suddenly, the figure most bemoaned by the left begins to look small by comparison.

As for diagnostic procedures, the evidence is conclusive. Americans have FAR greater access to diagnostic treatment and equipment and in a much shorter period of time than do people under socialist systems.

Oh, and thanks Hound Dog! Kind words are always appreciated.

Same Old Liberal Ca Ca
With respect to Mycos' regurgitation of the same liberal dogma, the extremely high tax revenues flow more strongly to public education than to the Pentagon... the difference being that the U.S. Military is effective and the U.S. Public Education is a joke (Thanks to Teachers' Unions). Apparently Mycos subscribes to the Hollywood Boogeyman of the Big Corporation with little or no consideration of facts. Formulating beliefs based on Hollywood movies is symptomatic of the Liberal Species. Mycos suggests, why not allow the Government to immerse itself into our health care? First, the Government is never free, monetarily speaking, it always costs big and most assuredly costs more than if free enterprise were involved. Secondly, nearly everything the Government undertakes, it screws up big time with top-heavy beauracracies, over regulation, and glacial reponse time. I'm not making this up; there are innumerable examples to the extent that there just isn't enough room to list all the transgressions. Again, Mycos falls upon on the same old, liberal assertions that any editorialist they don't agree with is clearly in Big Business's back pocket. I'm sure Larry Elder would love to see even a fraction of this alleged hush money. Of course the only one I see with his own limo and corporate jet is Michael Moore. A couple more thoughts: If Cuba's healthcare is so great, why did they have to bring in a foreign doctor and medical team to save multi-millionaire and dictator-for-life, Fidel Castro? Finally, some leftie alluded to conservatives' fear of Socialism and how Stalin must be laughing in his grave.... My thoughts? If Stalin is laughing, it's because he murdered over 20 million Soviet citizens and was allowed to die of old age.

Nancibelle
I am an admitted conservative health nut. The only health issue I have is gout. I used to reluctantly take chemical drugs like colchicine and indocin, knowing they are not good for me long-term. I have tried every possible natural remedy in the book. On the internet, I stumbled on a natural remedy, apple cider vinegar (ACV). I’ll be damned. It seems to work for me. I keep a glass of distilled water with just a dab of unfiltered, organic ACV on my desk at work. It has done wonders for me. I have not need the chemical drugs for a year now. Just thought I share this with you or anyone else who are dealing with the pain of gout.

As a Canadian,
let me say that things are certainly not as good as some pretend, nor as bad either. My brother has lived and worked in the States, Detroit, for five years. His healthcare (insured at work) is consistently more timely than mine. When he needed an MRI, he could get one in a week or less. I got one in four months, and I only got it that quickly because I went in at 2 a.m. I got another one within 2 days because there had been a cancellation just before I called.

And oddly enough, I wouldn't of had to go to Buffalo for a quick MRI, I could have gone to Québec, the most socialist problem of all. As the most socialist province that places the greatest restrictions on the medical profession, you will not at all be surprised to learn that it is in the worst shape. Thus, most ironically, the most socialist medical regime is allowing people to pay for access to MRI's, etc., because it needs the money. Approximately $1,000 an MRI to be precise.

And don't give me that 'free' garbage, either. I make more than my brother and have higher out-of-pocket medical expenses, despite our health care system and some additional coverage form work.

Let's not forget that health-care funding is the biggest of the federal transfer payments to provinces, and I don't allow my brother to tell me what his marginal rate is because it makes me cry. Not to mention the Ontario health surtax imposed on those of us rich SOB's earning more than $Cdn 65,000 a year.

So we have the world's best healthcare ?
We have one of the very lowest life expectancies in the "civilized" world slightly, higher than Kuwait, Slovenia and Brunei. Lower than Canada, UK, France, Germany, Japan, Australia, Italy, Norway, Spain Holland - need I go on. All of these countries have universal healthcare. We also have the most expensive healthcare system, over 15% of GDP. Other "Civilized Countries" pay about 8% of GDP, but they have universal care. I've lived in Italy and the UK, used their 'free' healthcare (tax paid) and it was competant and efficient. Wake up folks, we are being sold a pup - follow the money. Why are pharmaceutical drugs more expensive here than anywhere else, the drug companies are mostly multinationals? Because the system tollerates this. A universal system is only of benefit to those who will use it, not to the insurance, hospital, medical pharmaceutical industry - they have to perpetuate the myth of the "world's best healthcare"

Actually, AreDNmYheaD
The commonly repeated 47 million uninsured figure is based on a Census Bureau survey that found 85% insurance coverage, but the Bureau performs another survey that they expressly state is more accurate indicating that, in fact, 92% of the population is covered.

So Moore has actually overstated the real figure by more than 100%.

rocker
You repeatedly insist on posting dribble.
The other countries have as better plan? Where have you been? The other countries complain bitterly about their health insurance and their stats just don't match up to the states. Staph infections in England are ten times the rate as the US. Why don't you watch the House of commons on CSPAN for few eeks and you will see the complaints. What your really after is abdicating your responsibility for your own welfare.

MikeR
Thanks for the advice. My point was that I have options and I'm not railroaded into socialized medicine. Obviously if i lived in a rural place I would go to an ER. I have a lot of experience with asthma and I don't want just any doctor listening to my child's lungs, if I have the choice. I want to be able to choose.

Yes, we have the world's best care
Life expectancy is essentially useless as a means for comparison of health care systems in the first world as it is heavily influencied by genetics, behavioral factors, counting methodologies, etc.

Studies indicate (follow the earlier link to find some) indicate that your chances of surviving the diagnosis of a major health problem (heart disease, cancers, etc.) are significaantly greater in the United States than elsewhere.

"We also have the most expensive healthcare system, over 15% of GDP."

Of course, you were aware that there is a huge correlation between overall prosperity (regardless of healthcare system) and the percentage of GDP spent on helathcare (because the wealthier you are, the more you want it) and the 15% figure includes all the expenditures for voluntary cosmetic procedures and the cost of treating the thousands upon thousands of people who come to this country to get care rather than wait (and continue to suffer or even die) in their universal care paradise.

"I've lived in Italy and the UK, used their 'free' healthcare (tax paid) and it was competant and efficient."

Ah, anecdotal evidence: the staple of liberal argument (sic).

"Why are pharmaceutical drugs more expensive here than anywhere else, the drug companies are mostly multinationals?"

Maybe because rather than paying the cost of the drugs directly, people in socialized systems pay even greater amonts through taxation....

Actually, there's no "maybe" about it.

Michael Moore is an expert...
but not about health care, medicine, or deciding what 300 million people should do.

Taking health care advice from Michael Moore would be like asking a chain smoker how to quit smoking.

Just another do as I say not as I do celebrity.

RE: Mycos and the rest of Canada.
I have two words for you and your faux country: BITE ME!

You and most other Marxist nations are being subsidized by the United States for your medicines. Without the generosity of the United States, you and your worthless people would be dying every day of things treatable by the most rudimentary of antibiotics. While the United States has only 5% of the worlds population, we contribute ***50%*** of the worlds costs to drug sales.

There are virtually no major drug companies operating outside of the United States. Why? Communist price caps that prohibit drug companies from recovering the cost to develop all those nice drugs that cure your cancer, treat your diabetes, and keep you from dying of the flu.

The drug industry is one where producing a drug costs virtually nothing, but the development of a SINGLE drug would bankrupt many small nations (as of a few years ago, it cost, on average, $800 MILLION to develop a single drug).

Because of your price caps, Mycos, you LITTERALLY require drug companies to develop their drugs for free. Or, more precisely, you require us in the United States to pay for the development of your drugs.

Instead of spewing your garbage about us here in the US, you should be THANKING us for the fact that you are, right now, not dying of diabetes or some other easily treatable disease.

F1etch
I agree the figure of uninsured is high but, even with that the system still works for the majority of the vast majority population.

Philo best argument is we should do it because everyone else does, all his other argument are questionable at best. GOOD thing everyone else is not beating their head against a tree to cure a headache. I guess philo believes in following the herd even if they could be lemmings.

Socialized medicine
I really don't see how this is going to work any way you slice it. The older this country becomes the less patience it has. Look at Iraq. Look at the complaints about clogged roads, DMV lines, heck there is always someone complaining about having to wait in any line! This is a country that likes to be waited on also. We like our service. Hence the reason the restaurant business is booming! Socialized medicine you get to do the waiting on and for an enormous price at that. With this will come more and more govt. Let me give you an example. In Britain the only medical facility in a village closed due to govt. cutbacks. So their representative lobbied the govt. to create a tax payer bus system strictly for getting people to and fro to the doctor. No other purpose. I find this hilarious in a country that buys into the global warming bunk. At any rate, there you go, one service requires more govt. service to fill any gaps and ridiculous mistakes in it. I can see a nightmare on the horizon with this. Flip side we'll probably worry about terrorism less. As to the economy, stick a fork in it it will be done. People will pay for the system but not use it. So then they will pay for private care which means they will have less money for other things. Get ready to attach the govt. Kirby to your wallet.

philosophocon
Thank you for your input.

I work with a Canadian who recently moved to Flordia to escape exactly what you were referrring to.

MassachusettsLiberal writes:
The Truth is Sickening
Why do people hate the truth tellers? Only last month a woman in the U.S. called 911 while waiting for treatment in an ER. The woman died in the ER while waiting.

***
I read the article below on this and it makes it clear that it was that particular hospital's fault/issue and not the health care system.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/06/12/state/n160146D07.DTL

notice
non of the pro universal healthcare libs answer the question of how cosmectic sugrey has gone down in price while the rest of the medical services have gone up. how do you people explain that one?

elong
Actually the govt. uses and pays the private sector alot in national defense as well. Even the govt. knows it is inefficient.

re: whyicare
whyicare writes: Thursday, July, 12, 2007 7:05 AM

"Reality check for us Americans. Why it is costing an average American $5,000 to $7,000 per year in health care, while our neighbor, Cuba, is only $251. In terms of health care system, we rank 37 just two notches above Cuba, a third world country. Why are we spending approximately 20 to 30 times more than Cuba, and our healthcare system is marginally better. Wouldn't that be a cause for concern."

...ummm we pay money for QUALITY healthcare, ensuring we get attention from trained professionals in a safe, sterile environment. In Cuba, sick people will be lucky if their doctors wipes the tongue depressor off before using it on the next person. Cuba's healthcare is an oxymoron of the concept of one actually caring for one's health.

Also keep in mind that the US average annual income is higher than Cubans...so it would make sense we would pay more for insurance.


One More Thing
Oops! I forgot to mention one way to repair our existing healthcare system: Eliminate the spurious lawsuits that permeate the medical profession. Think of the cost of reacting to perceived and impending lawsuits and how medicine is applied. Proceedures and innumerable tests are now employed, not because they're necessary, but to cover the bases and stave off potential litigation. How much does this drive up the cost of medicine? I believe John Edwards made a career out of this, effectively quadrupling the number of C-sections in his home state, with no discernable statistical change in the incidences of birth defects. In the end, he tanglibly and significantly increased the cost of birthing a child, made millions of dollars for himself, built one of the largest homes in the state (let's hear it for the Two Americas), and routinely spent upwards of $1200 for haircuts (let's hear it, again, the the Two Americas).

massachusett liberal
Just so you know that was a govt. run county welfare hospital that woman died on the floor in.

There has to be a reason
why people from around the world come to America for their critical health care needs.

Our system is not broken!!! Private enterprise is the only avenue...if the government gets involved, LOOK OUT!

PS Wonder why Michael Moore didn't take the time to allow the Cuban medical community to assist him in attaining good health?

It is quite apparent that even with all of his bucks, and I'm sure he has insurance, he is not paying attention to his personal health. If ever I see a heart attack just waiting to happen, it's when I see a picture of this man!

Phylo
A. I don't listen to Limbaugh. I listen to a good Libertarian (Neal Boortz). That ought to get you going.

B. There is nothing knee jerk about my reaction. I don't think gov't is bad. Not at all. I just don't think they are very good at executing many of the things they try to execute. They're not. That's a fact.

I asked you a direct question. Name one thing (other than national defense) that the gov't does efficiently.

You didn't answer the question, yet I cited several examples of where the government beuracracy has failed the tax payers.

C'mon Phylo. I know you want the the gov't to do all of your thinking for you, but we haven't gotten to that point just yet!

RE: Phylo
Name JUST ONE thing that the government does better than private industry.

The government has, at times, ADMITTED it is less efficient than private industry. One of the more startling examples was in the 1870s when the US Postal Service was made a government mandated monopoly (Only the USPS is allowed to deliver First Class mail. They've even gone so far as to fine the Boy Scouts of America $50,000 for placing Christmas cards in people's mailboxes to protect that monopoly.). In Congressional debates, they justified their mandating a monopoly based upon the fact that there is NO WAY the government could compete with private mail carriers.

The United States pays so much for health care because the United States is, BY FAR, the most generous nation on the planet. We LITTERALLY subsidize the entire planet's health care. Were other nations to get rid of their price caps on drugs, our price of drugs would fall through the floor while other nations pay what they actually owe.

studies
I would like to know who is behind all of these goofy studies. Who paid for them. You know the ones saying we have a lower life span etc. Would it possibly be the health insurance industry that stands to profit enormously from socialized medicine? These studies are questionable at best.

beowulfe
"...the development of a SINGLE drug would bankrupt many small nations (as of a few years ago, it cost, on average, $800 MILLION to develop a single drug)."

The development cost is one thing anti-Big Pharma liberals never consider. They would say things like "It is an outrage that the pharmaceutical companies charge us $3 for a pill which costs only 25 cents to make."

the govt.
Expecting the govt. to be efficient is like asking an obese person to run the Boston Marathon. They start out life thin, but by the time they load up on policies to insure everyone is equally represented(carbs) then add the pork for the politicians to vote it in(fat) voila, you have an obese govt.

beowulfe
so what do you think will happen to healthcare in the rest of the world if we go to socialized medicine? How many more deaths will the heartless cruel Americans get blamed for?

Hound Dog
My husband uses apple cidar vinegar and also pure cherry juice. He doesn't need medication either.

Propagandist Moore
has said that the film was made to cause discussion about health care and from this article response, that is what we are doing. However, I wonder why Moore's so-called documentaries always have distortions and untruths to "create a dialgue"? I am just tickled by those who want socialized medicine and point to the "success" of other countries programs. You use Moore's exaggerations and distortions to make your point. Since when did government do a better job than the private sector? In the private sector they do out of business if they don't deliver. In government, the programs just grow bigger and more costly.

RE: Hound Dog
Indeed. That is, of course, why I always point out the FACT that kooky commies are, BY DEFINITION, mental midgets when it comes to economics.

If you're interested at all in economics, you should check out John Lott's new book, Freedomnomics. It is a response to the "Idiots Guide to Telling Convincing Lies About Economics" book titled Freakonomics.

Lolo
Your respone to MA Lib. ZING! Great, great catch.

TANSTAAFL
That's from the pen of the immortal Robert Heinlein. It stands for "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." Simply put, there is no free health care. It is paid for by somebody. If the individuals do not pay for it as consumers, then we pay for it as taxpayers. The one thing that will always be true is that anything that is free will have unlimited demand - whether or not it is needed. Those that demand free health care chose to ignore the fact, just as with gravity, that health care and every other thing in this universe has to balance cost, quality and quantity. You cannot have more of the best and expect it to cost less.

Concerning the 50M uninsured. We can point out all sorts of statistics we pulled from other web sites, but let me share one anecdote. My sister is a small business owner. She has a store which caters to the "horsey set." She does not have health insurance because she would rather spend her money on feed for the six horses he keeps. Is that a bad thing? Don't know; don't care. But it is her decision. And I am sure there are many other people who do not have insurance, not because they can't afford it, but because they know they can get the care they need at publicly funded hospitals and clinics.

RE: Lolo
Forget about the rest of the world, what about what will happen to the United States? We here in the US already live a lifestyle that is, by far, one of the most unhealthy on the planet, yet our life expectancy is still pretty high. Why? Because our healthcare is so exceptional that we can treat the problems caused by our excessive and unhealthy eating habbits, our drinking and drug use, our dangerous and reckless past times, and other issues that adveresly effect our health.

If the people of Canada lived a lifestyle as unhealthy as we do, their average life expectancy wouldn't be far past puberty.

SFASU7392
Sorry, I stand corrected. I should have realized it was all the Democrat’s fault. What I don’t understand is how it is always their fault. Since the Regan Revolution, Republicans have held the presidency for 18 years and the Democrats 8. Republican control of congress is even greater. For that matter, I don’t remember the VA hospitals ever being good and I have visited some intermittently since the end of WWII.


I’m sure that “Dumbbuttcraps” means Democrats. I guess that’s what Ann Coulter means when she said liberals don’t have an answer so that resort to name calling.

daderdog
good thing your sister-in-law doesn't reside in the state of Massachusetts. Everyone MUST carry health insurance. It is truly hurting those who can least afford it...but the government says you MUST have it.

You gotta love those government programs!

rocker
"If you think that saying we should evaluate other countries healtcare system and see how we can improve ours, is america bashing. then you are truely ignorant and uneducated...the cost is spiraling out of control and should be fixed."

I am all for evaluating other countries’ healthcare systems for improvements to ours, but all I hear from you and Michael Moore are your perceived negatives. I am an old man and I pay $4000 a year for my health insurance policy which gives me $5 million coverage. That is a little over $300 per month. I would say $300 a month for my health is not “spiraling out of control’. The average person spends close to $200 a month on gas for their car.

And, I am sick of hearing “the bottle is half empty” people like you telling us how many people are without insurance. No one ever gets turned away from medical attention due to the inability to pay. If you have a heart attack today, you will be taken to a hospital and treated. No one will let you die because you don’t have insurance, and you will not be jailed if you cannot afford to pay. The system works, and works very well. Don’t screw it up!!

MikeR
It is spelled Reagan - write it 500 times on the blackboard!

RE: MikeR
"I’m sure that “Dumbbuttcraps” means Democrats. I guess that’s what Ann Coulter means when she said liberals don’t have an answer so that resort to name calling."

Uh, tell me, when did Ann call anyone a "Dumbbuttcrap"? Oh yeah, you're one of Fat Teddy Kennedy's disciples, and you believe lying about what someone else says, then disagreeing with the lie constitutes "legitimate debate".

Unlike Al "The Dumbest Man In America" Franken and the rest of your kooky commie buddies, Ann has an IQ greater than that of a flea, and can toss insults that are slightly higher brow than those a 4-year-old would come up with.

Logic states:
I remember watching some exhibition baseball (I think it was Baltimore vs. Cuba) see the footage of how people in Havana live. It was a filthy, shack ridden landscape. These poor people weren't even hitting the first rung of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs adequately. Now, you're going to tell me that these people, who are barely existing have access to shiny medical facilities that are world class? It's just straight-up logic-- if you can't satisfy the simplest needs: food, clothing, good shelter, etc., you're not going to have cancer treatment, heart procedures, etc. available to you.

As for the WHO rankings. Who provides Cuba's numbers? Does the WHO have an auditor at every facility and shanty town to duly note all child births and other medical issues? Or do we just take Castro's numbers in good faith?

Oh and by the way Phylo; considering your positions on most issues, you're about as much of a capitalist as Mao Tse Tung was.

MikeR
"I don’t remember the VA hospitals ever being good and I have visited some intermittently since the end of WWII."

Ah, good point, Mike. The VA provides you a look-ahead of what socialized medicine holds for the American people. The VA is completely government controlled and is taxpayer funded. Enough said.

Lolo
You'll love this one and I'm sure Shells will verify. The Cook County (Chicago) Board President (his son took over for him a year ago) has a County Hospital named after him. Mr. John Stroger had a massive stroke and is still recovering. I'll bet you know where this is going. Yep! Mr. Stroger did not dare go to the Govt run medical facility with his name on it. No, just like all elite liberals, they make the rules for the rest of us but are exempted from their rules. He sought treatment at a much better hospital.

Aren't liberal politicians great? You can't make up stories more entertaining than reality when it comes to liberal hypocrisy.

Reform is on the way
Health care is a subject I have been thinking about a lot lately because I believe it is the “sleeper” issue of the upcoming presidential campaign and because it is a crucial issue for America to face in the coming years. And it just happens to be one where I still carry many scars from my own early experience more than a dozen years ago in helping create one of the first statewide health care reform programs in the nation.

The TennCare program in Tennessee was the first major effort to reform medical care for the poor and, at the same cost, to extend coverage to nearly all the state’s uninsured and uninsurable population. The program has since come unglued and essentially dismantled for a variety of reasons, all of which are instructive for our national health care debate.

But I learned a lot of lessons by fighting in these trenches before the issue of health care reform got so popular that even Michael Moore addressed it. The deeper I dug into it, the more I was shocked at what I found, especially about how we tried to provide medical care to the poor.

• We spend roughly twice the amount per capita and as a percentage of our GNP on health care than any other industrialized nation. Yet at the same time, we have one of the largest percentages of people who have no insurance. Roughly 47 million Americans are a serious illness away from bankruptcy and financial ruin because they lack health coverage.

• Our lack of inclusive health care coverage costs all of us money. A lot of it. People believe we are saving money by not providing adequate coverage for everyone but nothing could be further than the truth. We’re just shifting the cost. These costs show up in higher welfare expenditures, taxpayer-funded subsidies for public and charity hospitals, and mostly in higher overall costs for those who can afford to pay for health care. This results from medical providers having to raise their prices across the board to make up for the uncompensated care they provide to those who cannot afford it.

• Our failure to provide routine coverage for the poor is penny-wise and pound-foolish. We learned in Tennessee that most of the people without health care coverage simply used emergency rooms as their doctor’s office. For the same care that might cost $100 if provided by a family physician, taxpayers were picking up 300-500% higher costs when that same person had to go to an emergency room for primary care problems.

• We also learned that the poor and uninsured with chronic diseases (like diabetes) will often allow their medical problems to deteriorate to serious levels before seeking care. They end up getting so sick that the costs of restoring their health are much higher than the cost of earlier intervention. In health care, like most other pursuits, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, yet prevention is something that is not part of our current system since there is no financial incentive for it. The health care system only profits when people get sick.

• The lack of affordable health care coverage for the “working poor” is also costing us money. We found that many poor Tennesseans who wanted to work their way off welfare ended up back on it due to family health problems. I personally spoke to many single mothers who had tried to work their way off welfare through programs that ended up with them in productive, although low-paying, jobs that did not provide health coverage they could afford. As soon as they made enough to no longer qualify for welfare, they also lost medical benefits through Medicaid, the government program to provide care to the very poor. When that mother’s child got sick and she couldn’t afford to pay for medical bills out of her meager earnings, she had two choices: hope the child got better on its own or quit her job so she could go back on welfare to get medical coverage. Instead of providing health coverage for her, we end up providing both health care and welfare, a completely absurd situation.

The unfortunate bottom line is that when the poor or uninsured can’t pay, the rest of us do. It’s a vicious spiral since the growth of medical costs has far exceeded the general rate of inflation for as long as I can remember. As medical care gets more expensive, so does insurance. This prices more people out of the insurance market, resulting in higher prices for those of us who have to pay to fund the uncompensated costs for those who can’t.

Unlike the 90s, when both the TennCare plan and President Clinton’s health care reform program were being debated, business today has changed its tune. Formerly foes of health care reform, business today is getting very interested in a variety of reform plans. Their problem is that health costs exceed net income for many corporations today. Anything that would help bring these costs under control would greatly increase their profitability and allow American companies to provide more jobs and better incomes.

Our lack of a rational health care system is also beginning to hurt America’s competitiveness in the global economy. This wasn’t a problem when I was fighting these battles more than a dozen years ago. Today the growing acceleration of globalization means that every American company is not only competing with companies in the next city or state but also with those around the globe. When companies in other industrial nations can provide employee health care at a much lower cost than U.S. companies, it makes them more competitive, lowers their production costs and lets them sell their goods for less. This is a big reason that American companies like General Mills, Hershey’s, Kimberly-Clark, Kraft, PepsiCo and many others have joined together in the Coalition to Advance Health Care Reform to push for change, including universal coverage.

This debate is crucial and the success of health care reform, I believe, is absolutely necessary to our economic competitiveness and social fabric. I have pointed to some of the problems – and there are many others – but haven’t touched on the merits of various solutions being advanced. Perhaps another time.

I do know two things. First, if we had no health care system in America today and were designing one from scratch, anyone who proposed our current system would be viewed as a lunatic. It is rife with inefficiency, bureaucracy and all the wrong incentives. It’s just not working.

Second, my best evidence of this is a very good friend, a conservative Republican who has been a leader in the health care industry for many years. He and I were on the opposite side of health care reform during the Clinton years yet remained good friends and had some heated discussions on the topic. As a top official in a major hospital management firm in Nashville, one of the centers of health care management in the nation, my friend was one of those who had a seat at a relatively small table when firms like his joined with insurance companies, doctors, hospitals and others to fight the Clinton program. As a leader in that campaign, my friend helped create the “Harry and Louise” commercials that fed fears of expanded government involvement in health care and ultimately defeated the Clinton plan.

We recently got together again for lunch and a renewal of our discussion. I was amazed to find that his attitude had turned around nearly 180 degrees. I was uncharacteristically speechless when he said, “Ken, the way things have turned out, most days I wish we had lost that campaign.”

I think that brought it home to me that the debate over whether to reform our health care system is pretty much over. Now the discussion is how to do it.


Rationing is All Ready Here - Wrong!
Gestell said:
"Suppose your doctor orders a diagnostic procedure such as an MRI. If you're in an HMO, that request hits the computer screen of someone who does "utilization review." That person, who usually has no medical training of any kind, checks the request against a set of criteria the HMO uses to limit access to the procedure."

Only when there is a true shortage of resources as in organ transplant is there rationing which is difficult to overcome without waiting for service.

If your HMO denies to cover a procedure or medication that doesn't mean you have to do wirthout. You will simply have have to pay for it yourself often at a lower cost than the insurance comany would have paid on your behalf.





Inconvenient facts
Naturally, Moore never mentions the fact that Castro had to fly in a high-pricey surgeon from Spain when he suffered from diverticulitis--and wouldn't even allow any of the "wonderful Cuban physicians" to touch him with a 3 metre (10 foot) pole.

Asking that question would probably shut him up for good.****

****I've been asked many times by Pakistanis "What has India done for its Muslims?"; the counterquestion "What has Pakistan done for ITS Muslims" shuts them up EVERYTIME!!! So, I'm using the same analogy for Moore on this one.

Whichever Maple Leafer posted...
..."As a Canadian with a strong interest in political and economic world affairs, it is quite apparent that the difference between policies adopted by the US and other developed nations is that none of the others were subjected to level of anti-socialist propaganda the US used on it's citizenry. Perhaps they felt it necessary to keep such extremely high tax revenues flowing to the Pentagon without a lot of questions."

When your country is willing to take on the cost of your own national defense, we'll be happy to listen to your critiques of our Pentagon.

Rationing Here typo Corrections
Sorry sentence should have said:

You will simply have to pay for it yourself often at a lower cost than the insurance company would have paid on your behalf.

MikeR is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT
"Folks only a fool would take Moore seriously."

Which is why the Donkey Party gave him a place of honor next to Jimmy Carter at their 2004 convention.

Cookie
I have good one, too. My sister-in-law is a big liberal who doesn't work for a living, but goes around doing liberal causes like save the whale. I don't know who pays her bills.

Whenever I say anything bad about the public school system, she would jump all over me defending the public system. She would say it is not the public schools' fault that we are graduating idiots who can't read and write. I bet you know where I'm going with this, too. Guess where she sent her son from the first grade, all the way through high school. You got it. PRIVATE SCHOOL. Didn't the Clinton do the same thing with Chelsea?

Real experience outweighs propaganda.
As a canuck who was diagnosed with a brain tumor about 3 years ago in November,in January I finally saw a specialist. I was given several methods of treatment to choose from. I choose a treatment which was not avaliable here and so I needed to get approval from our healthcare system here to get treatment in the US. It was mid April when I did finally get the ok and I remember contacting the University of Pittsburgh on a Wednesday and was informed I could have the procedure that same Friday. When I tell my story to people here they are speechless as I was when they told me that over the phone in terms of the date. That doesn't happen here. So think about that from the beginning of November to the middle of April - you can guess how much fun I had over Christmas that year waiting and wondering.
As for fatboyslim(MM) stating who Cuba has such a great healthcare system well I have a story about that too.
My father took ill while on vacation there and was hospitalized for 5 days there. My mother and the other couple that was vacationing with them will testify of the dreadful conditions at the hospital - from lack nurses and doctors to the general lack of hygiene of the place. The other couple said that the hospital reminded them of the place they have their oil changed in there vehicle. Also all the people that were hospitalized including my dad, needed to have a family member at their bedside throughout their stay for lack of staff. Eventually he came home in a box. When people here try and relay the supposed excellent Cuban healthcare system I usually will let them say their piece and keep my mouth shut. It's only when they keep going on about it that I have to give them a real life experience as opposed to what they've heard through the grapevine and then they clam up.
The fact that our prime minister went to the US for treatment speaks volumes.
As for fatboyslim(MM) when he goes and gets treatment in Cuba then he can start talking.
Take from this what you will but I know what I've lived through.

Liberals need to follow the discussion
...before spouting the same talking points that have already been addressed.

"We spend roughly twice the amount per capita and as a percentage of our GNP on health care than any other industrialized nation. Yet at the same time, we have one of the largest percentages of people who have no insurance. Roughly 47 million Americans are a serious illness away from bankruptcy and financial ruin because they lack health coverage."

The 47 million figure is vastly overstated. The amount spent as a percentage of GDP is more closely related to overall prosperity levels and includes expenditures for voluntary procedures either not covered (or not included in the comparison data) in socialist countries and all of those people fleeing socialist systems to get prompt care here.

"Our lack of inclusive health care coverage costs all of us money."

No. Our twisted government hijacked charity system is what "costs all of us money". A lot of it. Expecting the government that, overwhelmingly, caused the problem to solve it is irrational.

"Our failure to provide routine coverage for the poor is penny-wise and pound-foolish. We learned in Tennessee that most of the people without health care coverage simply used emergency rooms as their doctor’s office."

And then, you found, by your own admition that your attempt at a government solution in Tennessee completely collapsed, just as it has everywhere else it has been tried. The failure was inevitable and yet you have, apparently, not learned from the experience.

"We also learned that the poor and uninsured with chronic diseases (like diabetes) will often allow their medical problems to deteriorate to serious levels before seeking care."

Again, you are describing the results of a system thoroughly corrupted by several decades of government intervention and then, strangely, advocate additional government intervention to solve the problem. Just how many government programs have been reformed only ONCE or, must you concede that the government can't get it right in the first place.

"The lack of affordable health care coverage..."

...is a direct and unavoidable result of the imposition of supply constraints, price ceilings and distancing the patient from responsibility for costs that government has been doing for more than half a century. THAT is the problem.

"We found that many poor Tennesseans who wanted to work their way off welfare ended up back on it due to family health problems."

This says far more about the utter failure of government charity programs than it does about aything even related to health care issues.

"I personally spoke to many single mothers who had tried to work their way off welfare through programs that ended up with them in productive, although low-paying, jobs that did not provide health coverage they could afford. As soon as they made enough to no longer qualify for welfare, they also lost medical benefits through Medicaid, the government program to provide care to the very poor."

Having described the twisted incentives that have created an entrenched underclass in this country and INCREASED poverty, how can you justify pushing for more of the same?

"Formerly foes of health care reform, business today is getting very interested in a variety of reform plans. "

Having been forced by dim-witted and short-sighted governmental actions that largely forced business to become intermediaries between the public and their health care, is it really a surprise that they are reacting?

"Our lack of a rational health care system is also beginning to hurt America’s competitiveness in the global economy."

...and then Dorothy threw the pail of water on the witch and she cried, "I'm melting..."

"I do know two things. First, if we had no health care system in America today and were designing one from scratch, anyone who proposed our current system would be viewed as a lunatic. It is rife with inefficiency, bureaucracy and all the wrong incentives. It’s just not working."

Finally, a point of agreement. Do you think we can get government to start from scratch ... and stay there?

Dolenolecat
A couple nice shots in a row. That was quite a prestigious pair sitting together, Cater & Moore. Doesn't that say it all as to who liberals find honorable?

canuck
I am sorry for your loss. My first thought about your thread, before I read on about your Dad's death was, "Vacation in Cuba????" We have a family friend who is very liberal who is talking vacation in Cuba. My first thought was, "what a moron!" Maybe I should send her your story.

hounddog
The "Do as I say, not as I do" liberals. Unending hypocrisy. I would say entertaining, but in the long run, they are dangerous.

Phylo
For once, you and I are sorta on the same page. Yes, the US healthcare system is completely inefficient. Part of that is our legal system's fault. Ambulance chasers like John Edwards sued every doc and hospital so much that they now feel the need to CYA with every patient. They order extra tests and medications above and beyond what's needed so they can't be accused of not going far enough. Yes, there has always been doctor errors/malpractice, but not anywhere near what the lawyers have made it out to be. If we could reform the legal system, especially with loser pays, that'd be a start to making our healthcare system more efficient. We have the best docs, equipment, and medications in the world. We've just gotta untie their hands!

Cookie
You have to understand that many canucks vacation there although I haven't myself. The funny thing was I was going to Cuba to make arrangements to get him medvac'd to a Miami hospital but he passed away the day before I was due to fly down.

canuck
My God you have been put through the mill! Thanks for the education. God bless you!

Something is going on with Michael Moore
Did anyone see The Fat, Liberal, Millionare, Hypocrite pitch a SissyBoy, Hissy-Fit at Wolf Blitzer? IMHO, Moore is self deluded. He subscribes to The “If I Say It, It’s True!” school of Liberal Filmmaking, which is among Al Gore’s inventions :). He sees ‘Sicko’ fading fast and is STUNNED that Americans didn’t swallow his lies, Hook, line and sinker.

I will begin production in the fall on a film about Self-Deluded, Liberals. I will focus on three examples of this syndrome, Michael Moore, Al Gore and Phylo. It will be entitled “Gore, Moore and Bore”.

Something is going on with Michael Moore
Did anyone see The Fat, Liberal, Millionare, Hypocrite pitch a SissyBoy, Hissy-Fit at Wolf Blitzer? IMHO, Moore is self deluded. He subscribes to The “If I Say It, It’s True!” school of Liberal Filmmaking, which is among Al Gore’s inventions :). He sees ‘Sicko’ fading fast and is STUNNED that Americans didn’t swallow his lies, Hook, line and sinker.

I will begin production in the fall on a film about Self-Deluded, Liberals. I will focus on three examples of this syndrome, Michael Moore, Al Gore and Phylo. It will be entitled “Gore, Moore and Bore”.

Lolo
I have used black cherry juice for a long time, too. Which does your husband find the most effective, ACV or cherry juice?

beowulfe
The reason I asked the question is because of our subsidizing of foreign care, when it is removed, it will just give the rest of the world another reason to pile on America. They are going to anyway and I don't really care. Just posing an economic geo-political question to you. In other words healthcare will cost even more under socialized medical form in America because we will then have to pay even more taxes to subsidize and buy good will. Right now that cost is not factored in. Be sure if it does happen they will hide it under the umbrella of foreign aid. The reasons why Americans live an unhealthy life style is numerable. One is affluence, aka disposable income. Second is lack of education which helps you to prioritize, yeah that requires critical thinking skills. Third is the all about me I want it right now this minute attitude. We at home call this the Baruka Salt Syndrome.

Hound Dog
Cherry Juice. However we both drink Apple Cidar Vinegar for other properties as well. Vitamin C, cholesterol, weight control among all the other properties. I was very sick as a child so I hate taking medicine...YUK! You have to hold a gun to my head to get me do it. So anything I can do to avoid it is good.

Georgetwin
Yeah I saw it. What goes around comes around. Couldn't happen do a nicer guy like Wolfe. that's what he gets for showing terrorists kill our soldiers on tv in his propaganda war. Wonder when the Dems are gonna wake up to the militant socialist left?

cookie
Keep posting! They are all hypocrits! I think that's what gets me about them the most.

DocNoleCat
cookie, F1etch, Hound Dog, and others too numerous too mention, you guys are on a roll today. GREAT JOB! Your adding to my arsenal keep posting! I live in libtard land and could use the help.

… in Tennessee
“The TennCare program in Tennessee was the first major effort to reform medical care for the poor and, at the same cost, to extend coverage to nearly all the state’s uninsured and uninsurable population. The program has since come unglued and essentially dismantled for a variety of reasons, all of which are instructive for our national health care debate.”

A variety of reasons, among them: Inefficiency, Fraud, Abuse, general lack of support. Not to mention the fact that the system paid so little out to doctors, that they hated covering TennCare patients. Some other doctors made a practice of TennCare, offering marginal services, and then charging TennCare for premium services, or for services they did not perform.

I’d say the instructive lessons from TennCare for other proponents of socialized medicine are about the same as the instructive lessons from France, Canada, England, …

It doesn’t work so well.

Elders is ignorant
My father is a doctor and my mother is a nurse. Often people ask them, "Why is everything so dang expensive at the hospital?" They always say, "Because people walk into the emergency room with no health care insurance." Elders is right when he says the ER must treat everyone. But he seems to think this solves the problem of skyrocketing health care costs in the U.S.....what's the problem, when everyone can go to the ER for free? Even my six year old knows better than that.

Mass Liberal (redundancy alert)
Yes- that woman died and it was a terrible mistake. But what you ALSO missed is the fact that this woman was well known to the ER personnel as a "frequent flyer" meth addict looking for drugs. Do you have ANY conception of just how common this is? I worked for years at the old Worcester City Hospital (before it closed due to government interference and hospital corp. screwups) and we saw this EVERY WEEK. There is not ONE thing socialized medicine would have done to correct this...NOT ONE THING. What socialized medicine WILL do is make sure this happens far more frequently and not just to drug addled street people.

Think twice before you get exactly what you wish for.

beowulfe
Please, please try and read the thread before reacting. In your zeal to defame me you often trip over the basic facts. I never said Ann used that term. SFASU7392 used that term in a comment to me. It should be well known that I don’t approve of such terminology so I took the opportunity to note Ann’s opinion of name calling. The irony is when a conservative does exactly what an icon of conservatism equates with liberals. Do you understand? Now I do not lie, accept to my wife about fashion choices. I have never voiced support for Kennedy or Franken. I have no kooky commie buddies. I am one of the most legitimate debaters on TH and I have never resorted to any of the rhetoric that you are now using in you usual hypocritical way.

CapeConservative: I should have known better. I promise to get started right away.

Hound Dog: I actually agree. I do not want socialized medicine. I only made my original comment to make the point that Moore is not alone in his antics.

DocNoleCat: I meant that. Moore’s presence at the convention had no class at all. It was pandering to cheap rhetoric.

SFASU7392: Yes, they are the lowest of the low and I will accept that it is representative of what the government is capable of. My point is that the Republicans have dome no better then the Democrats. To expand on that concept, where is the commentary to address that? We know it won’t come from the America hating troop disrespecting liberals. Why hasn’t it come from the brave patriotic, troop supporting conservatives?

Lolo: you have a keen eye for hypocrisy. It’s funny you never seem to cast towards

Health Care Comparisons
In comparing VA health care to “Socialized Care”, I have to admit Ive received excellent care at the VA, when not covered by my employer. The problem is that the level of care depends on the hospital. Im fortunate to use the San Francisco VA hospital which is probably the best in the US. Most vets aren’t as fortunate, as evidenced by many horror stories. As to military health care; as one person put it; often it depends on rank. As a senior Naval Officer, I had no complaints. But I can’t say the same for enlisted ranks.
As to comparing our health care system to other countries: I have: the hard way. Ive lived with Socialized Health care in both the UK and Australia. To put it bluntly: IT SUCKS. The US system for all its faults, and there many, is far superior. But for SOCIALIST LIB NUTS like “Rocker” who continue to complain; I can’t understand why they continue to live in a country that’s so “oppressive”. Why don’t they just get the hell out? We’d all be happier with their departure.

Newsduke is ignorant
"My father is a doctor and my mother is a nurse."

And my mother spent years as a sports leader for the local recreation council but I don't ask her to explain the details of sports medicine. Why? Because her job as sports leader gave her no more insight into sports related medicine than being a doctor or nurse gives anyone insight into the economic implications of health care provisions. They certainly CAN learn about the issue - and its truly a shame that, assuming you have recounted their answers accurately, they haven't made the effort - but that is not the same thing.

"Elders is right when he says the ER must treat everyone. But he seems to think this solves the problem of skyrocketing health care costs in the U.S.....what's the problem, when everyone can go to the ER for free? Even my six year old knows better than that."

Elders is saying nothing of the kind. In fact, he is making essentially the same point - that governmental interference with the market mechanism that controls both supply and demand (and, by extension, prices). The solution, therefore, is to eliminate the governmental interfererence that is ACTUALLY making things so expensive.

heh
and there still is no answer to why the cosmetic surgery which are not covered by most forms of insurence have gone down in price.

replies to Fletch and ROCKYMOUNTAIN HIGH
Fletch: My point is NOT that government provision of health care is some kind of magic that eliminates rationing. All I'm after is a little honesty on the part of consrvatives so they'll acknowledge that rationing occurs in the private sector as well.

ROCKYMOUNTAINHIGH: You admit that rationing goes on, but you limit it to things that are scarce, such as organs for transplants. But you're missing the point that "cost containment," which all of the players in the health care system are trying to accomplish, is what is behind the typical denial of a drug or service. The result is that the judgment of the physician is second-guessed by someone else, whose priorities are not really the health of the patient but rather saving money.


A speculation about Michael Moore
I have a new conspiracy theory. I think Michael Moore is actually a conservative political operative. Consider: I've seen "SICKO" and find it a tedious, poorly organized mess, filled with question-begging, dubious claims, and inept arguments. I'm a liberal Democrat and I would give Moore a D- or an F if he turned in evidence and reasoning done as badly as this movie for a term paper defending national health insurance.

"SICKO" is like MM's other movies: it is so blatant and incompetent that it makes the liberal position he is ostensibly trying to support look even worse to conservatives.

SO: here's my suggestion. MM is actually backed by right-wing money and his mission is to discredit liberal causes by making really stupid movies about them. I wonder who really signs his paychecks....

Mike should apologize
for repeating that nonsinsical "study" that ranks US healthcare 37th for (deliberately?) overlooking the (well known) fact that Cuba's infant mortality rate and life expectancy rate are manipulated, for repeating the canard that Cuba's woes are in any way the result of the US refusal to trade with them and for continuing to claim that (even with Cuba's doctored figures) Cubans live longer by referring to data well out of date. Current figures for life expectancy:

Cuba: 77.08
US: 78.00


Thank you Larry!
Anyone who has lived in a country with socialized health care will agree that it is NOT the best answer. I spent a couple years in Europe and watched people die, b/c they were on waiting lists to see doctors. And, believe it or not, if they would have had money, they could have seen an expensive doctor earlier. Trust me, it's not all it's cracked up to be.

And who would end up paying for it? Taxpayers! The Netherlands just instituted a new "health care" income tax on top of their already steep income taxes. It's anything but "free".