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Thursday, October 26, 2006
Larry Elder :: Townhall.com Columnist
Regarding Iraq: Open letter to Andy Rooney
by Larry Elder
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Dear Mr. Rooney,

You ask, in your recent "60 Minutes" commentary, for the president to finally flat-out "explain" why we have troops in Iraq. While busy preparing your commentaries, you perhaps failed to hear the president explain this -- over and over and over again.

Allow me to try.

-- The world changed for many -- apparently not you -- after 9/11.

-- Saddam Hussein violated numerous United Nations resolutions following the first Persian Gulf War. Saddam's military continuously shot at U.S. and British planes patrolling the Northern and Southern No-Fly Zones. He offered $25,000 to families of homicide bombers. We know he possessed chemical and biological weapons because he used them during the Iraq/Iran war, and on his own people, the Kurds.

-- The October '02 National Intelligence Estimate concluded with "high confidence" -- the highest certainty allowed -- that Saddam possessed stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons. All 16 intelligence agencies contributing to the NIE unanimously agreed on the chemical and biological weapons assumptions, with disagreement only on how far along Saddam was toward acquiring nukes.

-- Weapons inspectors found no WMD stockpiles, leading many Americans to feel that the president either lied or cherry-picked intelligence to lead us into war. But the Robb-Silverman Commission concluded that the president didn't lie. The bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee's 511-page report concluded that the president did not lie. The British Butler Commission, which examined whether Prime Minister Tony Blair "sexed up" the intelligence to make a case for war, concluded the PM didn't lie.

-- Kenneth Pollack, an opponent of the Iraq war, served as Iraq expert and intelligence analyst in the Clinton administration. Pollack writes that during his 1999-2001 tour on the National Security Council, " . . . the intelligence community convinced me and the rest of the Clinton Administration that Saddam had reconstituted his WMD programs following the withdrawal of the UN inspectors, in 1998, and was only a matter of years away from having a nuclear weapon. . . . The U.S. intelligence community's belief that Saddam was aggressively pursuing weapons of mass destruction pre-dated Bush's inauguration, and therefore cannot be attributed to political pressure. . . . Other nations' intelligence services were similarly aligned with U.S. views. . . . Germany . . . Israel, Russia, Britain, China, and even France held positions similar to that of the United States. . . . In sum, (SET ITAL) no one (END ITAL) doubted that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction."

-- Meanwhile, neighboring Iran defiantly pursues nuclear weapons. Bush reasoned that a free, democratic and prosperous Iraq would destabilize Iran, accomplishing regime change without military force. This would encourage the rest of the Arab world to direct their grievances toward their own leaders, rather than against the "infidels."

-- We remain in Iraq because, as former Secretary of State James Baker put it, "[I]f we picked up and left right now . . . you would see the biggest civil war you've ever seen. Every neighboring country would be involved in there, doing its own thing, Turkey, Iran, Syria, you name it, and even our friends in the Gulf."

-- Former Secretary of State and informal Bush adviser Henry Kissinger -- who knows something about the consequences of cutting and running -- wrote, "Victory over the insurgency is the only meaningful exit strategy."

-- The political aim of our Islamofascist enemies is a worldwide Caliphate, or Islamic world. Renowned Islam expert Bernard Lewis recently reiterated his support for the war: "The response to 9/11 came as a nasty surprise [to bin Laden and his followers]. They were expecting more of the same -- bleating and apologies -- instead of which they got a vigorous reaction, first in Afghanistan and then in Iraq. And as they used to say in Moscow: It is no accident, comrades, that there has been no successful attack in the United States since then. . . . [T]he effort is difficult and the outcome uncertain, but I think the effort must be made. Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us."

True, 2,800 of our best have died. Any figure above zero is a tragedy. But America -- on both sides of the Civil War -- lost more than 600,000 soldiers, or 2 percent of the country's population of 31 million. Of our country's 132 million, we lost more than 400,000 in World War II, or .3 percent of our population. In the Korean War, we lost 37,000, and the Vietnam War saw 58,000 dead.

Many people say that after failing to find stockpiles of WMD, Bush "switched" rationale for the war. Consider this excerpt from a New York Times editorial about a speech Bush gave weeks before the coalition entered Iraq:

"President Bush sketched an expansive vision last night of what he expects to accomplish by a war in Iraq. Instead of focusing on eliminating weapons of mass destruction, or reducing the threat of terror to the United States, Mr. Bush talked about establishing a 'free and peaceful Iraq' that would serve as a 'dramatic and inspiring example' to the entire Arab and Muslim world, provide a stabilizing influence in the Middle East and even help end the Arab-Israeli conflict."

Still confused? Please write back, and I'll try again.

Sincerely yours, Larry Elder

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About The Author
Larry Elder is a syndicated radio talk show host and best-selling author. His latest book, "What's Race Got to Do with It?" is available now.
 
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©Creators Syndicate
Glassman: Have mercy on us
For the love of the (non-)Diety(/ties) of your choice or non-belief PRESS THE ENTER KEY A FEW TIMES. You think someone is going to read that massive block of letters with no break on the eyes?

IS THIS SO FAR FETCHED?
Here is what I see going on. There is no way for me to know if this is any kind of a conspiracy, but it is definitely happening and it is not good. The Chinese are supplying Iran with weapons. Sure, some weapons are officially going from North Korea to Iran, but N. Korea does nothing China does not allow. Therefore,Iran is taking these Chinese weapons and distributing them to their various terrorist gangs to engage America and/or Israel.America has to defend the free world and support Israel.This costs money, lots of it.Now Iran is in the process of making nuclear weapons.Not many people know it, but Russia sold Iran ballistic missile subs while Billibabla Clintahammud was chasing Harmonica Blowlowski around the Oval Office.Now AMERICA is going to have to spend billions to prevent Iran from nuking more than a couple of AMERICAN cities.Add to this the billions we will need to recover from the nukes that probably will go off in AMERICA before the lefterals (leftist liberals) allow the military to end the threat from Iran.All this time,China is bleeding AMERICA’S economy dry by using slave labor to take more and more AMERICAN jobs away from AMERICA and bankrupting the companies that try to compete without closing their AMERICAN factories and moving them to China.When the AMERICAN economy collapses from all this, our military will become a shell of its former self because we will still be fighting terrorists supplied with weapons from China,but we will not be able to replace anything used or lost fighting terrorists because the government will be broke due to no one paying any taxes. That’s because nothing will be manufactured in AMERICA, on account of all the import buying and the foreign companies,who do assemble goods over here,don’t pay any corporate income tax because their books say they don’t make any money and no one,who could do anything about it,will.All this time China is steadily building up their military,with the help of traitorous AMERICANS and money-grubbing western countries like France and Germany.Then,China will deal the final blow to AMERICA’S economy by nationalizing the only AMERICAN owned factories left,the ones built in China by companies that would have gone out of business if they did not.This could have been averted,in my opinion,with tariffs on all goods imported into AMERICA in excess of the amount of untariffed goods a country buys from AMERICA.And don’t hand me any crap about trade wars.Our trade deficit(3/4 trillion per year and skyrocketing)tells me that AMERICA would kick butt in that war.Sure,some companies may suffer, but they WOULD HAVE(tariffs ain’t going to happen as long as there are lobbyists)brought that on themselves by moving their factories overseas.Anyway,with AMERICA’S military broken and broke,we will be at the mercy of China and their thugs,the Muslim insanists,if there are any left alive.I don’t remember China being merciful to anyone before,so I don’t see them starting then.AMERICA could be in for some deep #@$&%!~();&:* and it will be our own fault.

wmd's
Anyone,except george bush,that says g b is a liar because no wmd's,to speak of,have been found in iraq,is a liar.How do they know what g b knew?All,not finding many wmd's means,is that we haven't found many wmd's yet.I would imagine that,when the media announced that we knew where their wmd's were,they may have tried to hide them somewhere.Is it so hard to believe that Syria or Iran would not turn down some free wmd's, just because they weren't buddies with sodom poontaine? Did people expect that we would find a super wmd's mart,with a large flashing neon sign that said, "WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION-ALL TYPES-EASY CREDIT TERMS FOR TERRORIST MASTERMINDS-SUICIDE BOMBERS,CASH AND CARRY-WILL DELIVER TO ISRAEL VIA SCUD". It is possible to know if there WERE wmd's, but no one but sodom himself would know if there WERE NOT any,and I don't think he said one way or the other.I believe that he was making bio weapons due to the fact that a bioreactor will fit in the back of a truck,and every time the weapons inspectors tried to inspect a pharmaceutical(spelling) plant, the inspectors were harrassed at the front gate,while trucks pulled out of the back gates-if the inspectors were allowed to enter at all.A bio wmd only has to be as big as a petry dish(about 4 inches in diameter)taped to a pipe bomb.A 5 gallon bucket of biotoxin could wipe out the whole world.That might be a threat to AMERICA.I wonder if our border guards,that we have now, could keep a few mason jars of smallpox or ebola or ecoli(SPINACH SEASONING) from crossing in from Mexico.I doubt many Mexicans would lift a finger to stop it.

victory in iraq
The war in Iraq is much like Vietnam. Iran,like Russia and/or China in Vietnam,is the real enemy in Iraq, I think. They are using the two factions,Muslims who are easily misled enough to kill each other(or anyone else who happens to get in range). When the violence starts to die down, Iran sends in a squad of their guys(where ever they have to send them from),and they kill a bunch of people(or blow up a Moslem shrine) and act like they were from the enemy of the people they kill, while publicly blaming it on one insurgent group or the other. This could be Shiite killing Sunni, vice versa, or anyone killing Americans,or kidnapping anyone. It does not take much to get those idiots to start back up killing each other. You can see that their version of religion is BS, because they claim,if they die in combat,they go to heaven and get to have sex with a bunch of... err virgins (their's is supposed to be the God of Abraham- yea, right), yet they get all upset when one of their terrorists get killed. Can they not see a glaring hole in their witness? Are they that stupid( I don't think so. I believe they are either brainwashed or twisted with hate and resentment)? If they are so happy to be a martyr,why don't we give them a hand? I bet there would not be so many jihadists if we told them those stealths,that just left out of Missouri,were loaded with nukes,so get their supply of heavenly condoms ready. Anyway, Iraq is the same as when the commies were using those poor stupid Vietnamese to bleed America until we cut and ran. Every time we had them on the ropes, they would start wanting peace talks. Then the libs would make us stop destroying them, and they would use the break in action to rebuild their forces,then start the war back up. The sad part is we fell for it every time- same as in Korea. The same thing is going to happen in Iraq,unless we change the stupid rules of engagement. We have to deal with Iran, agressively. If we had dealt with China,in Korea,we would not have to worry about China launching those nukes we are buying for them.But now if it weren't for the missle defense, ther is nothing to prevent China from nuking half of America,as soon as we get tired of giving thewm all our money. They don't give a crap how many of their people would get killed.And,we would have won the war in Vietnam in the 60's.We may have learned what we should do, after Vietnam, but we aren't doing it.Oh,yea,the liberals,by blaming their problems on others,never learn a flippin' thing except how to play dirty tricks on their rivals,because nothing is their fault. Or,someone else,in their opinion,did something worse,once upon a time,so they don't have to do anything any better than they ever did.I wonder if they keep doing things the same,if they will get the same result( "At leastI tried, I would have got him that one time,if I had just told Monica to stop long enough for me to answer the phone")

Mr. White...perhaps Mr. Pink fits better
Defeatocrats, how nice they want to relive the 70's, Vietnam and the deaths of over 2 million Cambodians with the vacuum created to allow the Khmer to rip through and slaughter when we bailed out. Of course the Lib's/Peacenicks gloss over that tid bit, nice huh?
The Libmart faction cares only about themselves, they are our own worst enemy and should be treated as such. They should watch what they wish for because it's the Academia that get wiped out first, just ask Russia, Germany, Bosnia and Kampuchia.
Keep on wishing for defeat, it'll come back and bite you.....in the face.

Jefff
Thanks Jefff. Someone needs to remind the trolls on this website how the neocons forced this war on Bushco with their term paper policies. Can't you just see Perle, Wolfowitz and Cheyney carrying around those black composition books with the papers they wrote 10 years ago calling for this war. Or can you picture Wolfowiz playing out his Iraq war strategy on a game of Stratego with Perle. Or perhaps. They remind of the scene in Braveheart where the King's gay son intorduces his gay lover to his dad and says its "Philip" his "war counsel" whereupon the king shoves his son out the window.

Sage
THE SAGE FROM SOUTH CENTRAL MARCHES ON!!!

Response to Mr. White
Mr. White
Your comments are simultaneously the most accurate and amusing ones I have seen on this website. Good job!

Machiavellian1
My point is that Cons like Larry the Lisper need to stand up for what they believe in and tell it like it is concerning the reason we went to war: some dorks like him wrote term papers suggesting (in their poly-sci theory language) that replacement of a middle eastern dictatorship with an American style democracy would cause the "islamo-fascist" middle east to fall apart and everythin would be fine. Combine that egg-headed, ivy league, think mentality with the dungeons and dragons playing, stratego playing dork back ground and you find yourself in a war that has blown up (literally) in their faces.

Mr White.
So what's your point?

The Right Wing War Council
I love when wingers like Larry the Lisper talk about thier knowledge of warfare and the need to project force. Larry's longwinded, college term-paper style, explanation for the reasons for the Iraq war truly wingers rationale for the war. Why can't the wingers face it,with regard to Iraq, we are there because some dorky ivy league types who get paid by think tanks were writing term papers in the 1990s about their complex theories that explained how knocking off a dictatorship in the middle east and replacing it with a forced democracy would result in the collapse of "islamo-fascism". These dorks with their term papers actually got Bush Co to try out their smarty pants term paper theories in the real world. Wow. The odd thing is these same dorks, like Richard Perle,Wolfowitz, Cheyney, William Krystal and the like have zero first hand knowledge of warfare. How many of those chickenhawks and you chickenhakws on here will admit that your knowledge of the military is based upon your mastery of wizards, dragons, goblins and elves? Why can't the average chickenhawk dork admit he grew up liking Dungeons and Dragons more than he liked being on the gridiron or baseball field. Why can't the average chickenhawk admit that he knows more about getting to Level 5 in Dungeons and Dragons than he knows about Cover 2 in football? Don't be ashamed. I'm not saying it doesn't take talent for a chickenhawk dork like Richard Perle to rise to the level where he can play "Real" army without ever having to risk a fingernail. It just takes no guts. Chickenhawk dorks of the world Rejoice and sing your fiery fight songs. "Push 'em out shove 'em out way out. Sis boom bah. Our team's strong and your team smells. Yeahh!!!"

Pamsparkle
You wrote, "First, let me state that I do not like the U.N., most of its policies, or most of its practices."

Then why are you willing to go to war to enforce the dictates of such an organization?

Thanks Phylo
You wrote, "Now watch the righties respond by calling you names."

My problem with GWB has always been that HE'S a lefty. The man never met a government program he didn't like. I strongly suspect that the real reason we're at war has more to do with a wartime President's ability to arrogate power than to protect the United States. A real conservative advocates limited government. The people who run this cite (and many of the people who read it) are merely another form of statist. To them, government is good as long as their team has the ball.

As for WMD, I did not go into detail. In my former life as a military intelligence officer, I learned a little about WMD. Any nation that has the capability of brewing beer or making insecticide (or chlorinating water) has the capability to produce WMD. When GWB was using Iraq's WMD capabilities as justification for war, he was being deliberatly misleading. ALL nations have the capability to produce WMD.

The threat of terrorists with WMD is completely overblown. As anyone who will take the time to look into the matter will find, during WWI, it took about 1.8 tons of chemicals per person killed. The sarin attack on the Tokyo subway killed 12 people and sent 54 to the hospital -- and this on the most favorable target on earth.

By way of comparison, the Madrid bombings killed 191 & wounded some 1700. Even terrorists can do the math. Plain old, everyday, garden variety high explosives are much more effective than chemical or biological weapons or even the so-called "dirty nukes", for that matter.

Its funny how people who could do just a little research will accept anything that the government and certain members of the press tell them. Show them a memo written on a modern word processor & they can prove within hours that it wasn't generated bythe Texas Air National Guard. Tell them that America is in imminent danger of attack by a third world nation, & they accept it like it were something Moses brought down from the mountain. It's pitiful really.

Grant and the U.S.
Never said Grant was the seated president, but what he said about the Alamo was, "It was a disgrace inflicted by the arrogance of a national greed that would be historically significant to our ultimate demise." Yeah, I'm pretty darn ashamed of this country. Why be proud Leroy? Are you a native American? What we are looking at is the pending conditions that will eventually relegate this country to common atrocities such as are currently happening in the Sudan. Must give you immense pleasure fighting for a country that lies to you while you proclaim liberty for yourself. Hillary would be so very proud. Can you say "quicksand" Leroy? Or better yet, please inform me on the progress we are making in Iraq. Don't worry Leroy, I'm sure GWB will build a fence around your house to keep us vermin out.

Iraq and U.N. resolutions
First, let me state that I do not like the U.N., most of its policies, or most of its practices.

However, the cessation of hostilites in the Gulf War required Iraq to comply with the resolutions. Several times, the U.S. asked the U.N. to put some resolution behind the resolutions. It did not.

The previous president stood by while bullies kicked sand in his face. The only way to defeat a bully is to confront him. This president at least made attempts to stop the bullies. Has he been 100% successful? To date, no. Is that a reason to say he has failed? No.

Nice post Corbet
Good post. Now watch the righties respond by calling you names.

I would quibble with you on whether Bush lied about WMD. WMD is too broad a term, and most people did think he had SOME kind of weapons. You have to break it down in to the specific claims they made; like the claims about the aluminum tubes, and the yellowcake from Niger, the mobile weapons labs. These were all lies because they knew that what they were saying was highly questionable if not outright false.

Phylo out.

your post is too long...
...if you expect for anyone to take you seriously. Consider a blog.

But just a point, because you are spouting some of the same drivel as other people:

Iraq's weapons, whether they existed or not, were never considered to pose a direct threat to US soil. The threat lay in Iraq using them against its neighbors and interrupting the world oil supply, against Israel (think 1991 Scud attacks), or in Iraq proliferating those weapons throughout the Islamic world and distributing them to terrorists.



U S Grant 1836 Inquiring Minds

Grant probably said "Where's the cider?"

In 1835: 1836 Grant attends the school of Richeson and Rand in Kentucky

So ends the history lesson>

Let's look at the article
Let's look at each allegation Mr. Elder makes.

The world changed after 9/11. Perhaps, but what does that have to do with Iraq? Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 -- even the VP & SECDEF admit that. Our Saudi "allies" were responsible for 9/11, but we didn't go to war with them.

Hussein violated UN resolutions. Isreal has been in violation of decades. South Africa was in violation for decades. Did we go to war with either nation? Since when does the UN set US foriegn policy. As for shooting at planes patrolling no-fly zones, I would hope that if the UN had planes flying over the US, we'd shoot at them too.

Hussein paid money to suicide bombers. And the US paid the PLO. Saudi Arabia pays millions to Bin Laden. This certainly can't be a justification for war.

Iraq used chemical weapons against the Iranians & Kurds. It's pretty clear that weapons that have already been used were not a threat to the United States.

The NIE had high confidence that Iraq had WMD. So what? Everyone who read that report -- from the President on down to the secretary who typed it knew that Iraq did not have a delivery system. Even if Iraq had huge stockpiles of WMD, they completly lacked the capability of hitting targets in the United States. The President & his minions knew this when they mad speeches about the imminent danger posed by Iraq.

Did President Bush lie? Technically, he did not lie about the existence of WMD. But by withholding important facts and by telling the American people that we were in imminent danger of attack by Iraqi WMD, President Bush and members of his administration absolutely, positively lied. President Bush could not have believed that Iraq had either the capability or intention to deliver WMD on targets in the United States.

Iran's nuclear program was never cited as a pretext for invading Iraq. Nor can Iran's nuclear program be used as a justification for waging war against another nation. Furthermore, Iran has accellerated its program in response to President Bush's "Axis of Evil" speech & his subsequent invasion of Iraq. North Korea has accellerated its program for the same reason.

Clearly, the author offers no rational justification for the United States to take aggressive action against Iraq. Iraq did not attack us. Iraq did not have the capability to attack us. Nor did Iraq have the intention to attack us. Iraq posed not threat whatsoever to the United States. Therefore, we cannot but conclude that this war was completely unjustified.

Having run out of "justofications" for invading a country that posed no threat to the United States, the author defends the prolongation of this was of aggression.

We are told that there will be a civil war when we leave. Does this mean that we are to stay in Iraq forever? Throughout human history, the Middle East has been home to tourmoil and strife. For thousands of years, people over there have been trying to slaughter their neighbor. Is the United States to stay in Iraq for thousands of years?

Of course we aren't. True, Iraq will be a disater when we leave. But Iraq was a disaster long before we arrived. Iraq is a disater with us there. It's time to face the fact that no matter how you cut it, Iraq is a disaster.

So it's not a question of averting disaster. It's a question of pouring American lives and American money down a rathole. Are we going to get more of our people killed and spend billion more of our dollars in an effort to bring peace & stability to a portion of the world that has never known peace & stability since that memorable day when Cain slew Able within its border?

Mr. Elder then suggests that building democracy will blight the hopes of the "Islamofacists". This does not bear up under scrutiny. One need only look at the disasterous results "democracy" has brought about in the Palestinian election. Our insistence on "democracy" is directly responsible for the election of Hamas to power.

The citation of casualty figures for other wars is in dubious taste. Plus it has absolutely nothing to do with the question under debate. A person who died in WWII is beyond help. The question we face is whether any more of our fellow American should die in Iraq. Nothing Mr. Elder has said and certainly nothing that President Bush has said convinces me that any more should die there.

Lastly, the author quotes Mr. Bush's "expanssive vision". That expansive vision has turned into a nightmare and the sooner we end it, the better it will be -- not only for the United States, but for Iraq and the world.

ANDY ROONEY'S WORLD VIEW
In his letter to Andy Rooney, Larry Elder offers one of the clearest expositions I have ever read, on why Mr. Bush took us into Iraq.

Sadly, I doubt Andy or the rest of the Liberal gaggle, including the MSM, will pay much attention to Mr Elder's analysis. The opposition seems to count on an apathetic electorate with a short memory or little real knowledge of what happened during the run up to the war, hence the incessant drumbeat of Presidential lying, special interest, read Halliburton and the Cheney connection, meddling and downright corrupt activities surrounding our effort to take out Saddam and his murderous Ba'athist colleagues.

Bravo Mr Elder, they can and no doubt will ignore your effort, but you've put it on record for fair minded voters to see and surely that can't be a bad thing.

GunnyG
You got your name back I see.

tanabear, you are lying to yourself
Did you ever consider that the UN attempts to investigate Iraq's WMD capability might have been seriously compromised? Particularly by Iraqi officials who had plenty of warning that the inspection teams were coming?

And, another thing you are not intellectually honest enough to consider, is that Iraq was obligated by the 1991 UN Resolutions to cooperate with consistent weapons inspections (see section 12 of 1991 UN Resolution, linked below). If you recall, Saddam kicked weapons inspectors out in 1998, and only agreed for them to return to his country after the US threatened action in 2002.

And yet another issue you and other liberals like to gloss over is that Saddam was not supposed to have any sort of long range missile system (range in excess of 150 km) that could potentially deliver a chemical or nuclear warhead (SCUD missiles - see UN resolution S/RES/687 (1991), section 8b). Attached is an article that tries to bury this bit of information. Note that it admits "[The Al-Somoud] missile has only been exceeding its 93-mile limit by about 15 miles and that, the Iraqis say, is because it isn't yet loaded down with its guidance system."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/18/iraq/main537096.shtml

Here is the UN Resolution from 1991, I suggest you read it.
http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0687.htm

Its absurd to think the inspectors were going to conveniently find a box labeled "WMDs" sitting on a shelf in a gov't office in Baghdad. The inspectors' mission was to investigate components and dual-use technologies in addition to stores of chemical agents, and the evidence strongly supports that they located those devices, but motivated by their ideological convictions, refused to acknowledge that Iraq was in violation of UN accord.

tanabear your kidding right?
Is this the same UN that ran the Oil for Food program... there isn't an honest person in the whole lot... except for Bolton now!

Hans Blix is such a POS it ain't funny. Everyone, and I mean everyone, thought that Iraq had WMDs. So cut the crap. Even your Willy Boy is quoted as saying it. If your old enough to read go here and catch up the real world.

http://www.rightwingnews.com/special/xyz.php

Philosophocon,
Miss Cleo WAS the Dem's vice-presidential nominee in 2004. How can anyone ever forget John Edward's amazing powers of channeling unborn children with cerebral palsey act, the one that won him hundreds of millions of dollars in numerous North Carolina courtrooms-

taking tanabear to task
"However, this does not mean that nation building is possible due to the 9/11 attacks."

But it certainly meant that preemptive strikes became a legitimate defense against future attacks from declared opponents who enjoyed the support of rogue states.

"Israel has violated numerous UN resolutions. Should we attack them as well? Saudi Arabia offers money to the families of suicide bombers as well. Why does Bush consider them an ally. Saddam had laws against the preaching of Wahhabism. Saudi Arabia is one of its main funders."

Other nations transgressions against UN accords do not excuse Iraq's. Its like arguing we should excuse Hitler for invading France, because Italy invaded Ethopia and Japan had invaded China, and the world did nothing.

"This is because the Administration ignored all the qualifiers that stated the information was suspect. The Pentagon's own DIA stated in September 2002 there was no evidence that Saddam had re-started any WMD program. It was all a lie."

As dangerous as Saddam had been in the past, was it not wise to err on the side of caution? Besides, several intelligence agencies concluded quite the opposite, that Saddam had retained some of his WMD capability (not just hi-tech nukes but low-tech chemical weapons). I don't quite understand how you equate bad intelligence with "lies." If you told me there was a sale at Walmart on widgets, and when I got there, there were no widgets left, would that make you a liar? Of course not.

ATTN Larry
I appreciate the effort that you put into your response to Rooney, but my response would be different.

Mr. Rooney:

I believe that around September 11th a "flat world war" was started that resembles a digital bar fight where multiple parties pursuing multiple agendas compete to create media impact. The ultimate objective of this is leadership disruption in democratic societies.

Are you ignorant that this is happening or a willing participant? If so whose side are you on?

mcb
http://www.opinionmill.com


Sanction Starved!
Are you trying to suggest that a defeated, sanctions-starved Iraq had the ability to confront us on a world-wide scale with a series of proxy wars?
Are these the same sanctions that inspired the "Oil for Weapons - I mean - Food" program, whereby the French Russians and Chinese, help Saddam with his death and destruction.

You have no credibility after that statement! What a Moonbat!

bafflement or satire
Pistol - for the record, I'm not exactly dumbfounded about why those opposing the war still debate the reasons. I get political spin. The more baffling part is how often the Bush admin lets them get away with it. When accusations are made that the only reason for the war was to find WMDs, or that the administration is changing reasons for the war from one to another, the response seems obvious: "Read the Iraqi Liberation Act, read the 24 reasons listed on the war resolution, and read the 17 UN resolutions. These were debated, documented, and votes were cast by all. End of story."

stuff
Anyone ever heard the saying, "a discussion becomes dangerous when it starts generating more heat than light"?

Don't beleive the spin II
Sorry Demosthenes but I don't think you get my point. Of course I remember all of the conflicts generated by the Cold War. My comment was not meant to minimize the pain and suffering that occured because of this conflict but that is not really relevent to my arguement. These conflicts occured because we were facing off against a powerful super-power and were the ineviatable consequence of our policy of containment. Are you trying to suggest that a defeated, sanctions-starved Iraq had the ability to confront us on a world-wide scale with a series of proxy wars? My point was that we were able to contain a super-power without having to resort to all out (ie thermonuclear) war. If we could do this with the USSR we could surely do it with Iraq. Similarly you miss my point about the sanctions and the post 911 world. In the shadow of 911 the "laser beam" attention of the world would not have been diverted. We had the sympathy of the entire world and we could have focused that "laser" right on Sadaam and gotten any sort of sanctions we wanted. Your prudent assumptions regarding WMD were pretty obviously the result of prejudicial thinking on the part of this administration; there was ample evidence from the UN and other sources, that Sadaam did not posses WMD. The only way you could come to the conclusion that Sadaam might have WMD is if you ignored all exculpatory evidence. As far as the sophistry of my remarks is concerned I suppose that is a matter of opinion but how you leap from there to describing me as "a person that has probably never been responsible for anyone but himself" is a logical fallacy beyond my ability to fathom (you are wrong incidentally). It is this kind of logic that got us into this war. Your ad hominem attack displays the weakness of your arguments. I think you should fill your mouth with pebbles and try shouting over the sound of the crashing waves to practice your rhetoric before you post here again.

couple other things Leather
In '70-71 I wasn't a special anything, just another Pfc in the Central Highlands and like you I would have thought we should have learned a couple of things from history. Like if you find yourself in a fight, then fight to win and don't surrender when you're winning.

You seem to be very dissatisfied and embarrassed with the United States, why not relocate to some garden spot like the Sudan, or Malaysia, Venezuala seems to fit your opinion of this country well.

Chewing Leather
I for one would like to hear what, "then president US Grant" said about the Alamo. As I am from and still reside in South Texas the Alamo has always been a topic of interest to me. Let's see now, the garrison at the Alamo was put to the sword in March 1836. U.S. Grant was elected President of the United States in, I believe, 1869.

So what were the mans words?

Response to Andy Rooney
Mr. Elder,

Andy Rooney is one American citizen that has the gumption and common sense to know that while we are off policing the world, our country is slowing merging into civil war. Do you honestly think that there are not enough good men and women in this country that are willing to stand up against the evil prevailing on our turf? As a special ops soldier in southeast Asia from 1969-1973, I would have thought we would have eventually learned some lessons from history by now. Apparently, history is doomed to continue repeating itself until we are nothing more than a vague memory in a seldom seen, obsolete technological historical document. Do you recall what then president U.S. Grant said about the Alamo? How about General Custer's decision to teach a persecuted enemy a lesson?

As we approach 3,000 U.S. military deaths (those we choose to report), how many more need die for the sake of a democracy that has become obsolete in the very country that has dominated the common man since the debacle of Vietnam? It is my observation that Dr. Martin Luther King was a true man of wisdom because he knew that violence was not the answer to any problem. Whats next? Special protection surrounding our select few making policy decisions while riding in security laden automobiles and screaming about the absurdity of our 2nd Amendment rights, but professing the liberty of freedom of speech so long as its suits their agenda to treat the common man as a monetary means to destroy what little remains of dignity and morality behind the closed doors of our basic human rights. Yes, we are the most hated country in the world, and yes, I do understand precisely why. We continue to play God while oblivious to the difference between knowledge and wisdom. What a wonderful example we set before our children!

titus_213@hotmail.com

On Andy Looney
I sometimes enjoy watching Andy at the end of 60 Bendits, he can be kind of funny, sort of like listening to your crazy uncle talk and tell jokes. But Mr.Elder shouldn't really be too hard on Uncle Andy, poor old boy, it is a common problem with the left. The more information they are given the less they seem to remember.

Wishing Middle East a better Future


Nectar and fragrant delights are the divinely blessings, ordained by Almighty God to the bees to receive a feast of regale and delicacy from the flowers. Bee gets this as a pleasant reward while serving the divinely mechanism of nature; of transferring the pollen of flowers to the stigma. Bees may not be aware of it that God almighty, the creator has so well designed and equipped them to serve the purpose of productivity as a regnant of ecosystem on our adorable planet…Earth. Bees enjoy the nectarous drink and ambrosial feed. They spend their pleasant time in the fragrant surroundings while performing the delicate job of eco in nature. This is a guaranteed reward of nature as long the cause is served and bees do not destroy the synthesis, beauty, colour and sweet smells of flowers.

On the other hand, Locust, green fly or caterpillars squander and waste the flagrant flowers by eating up and destroying them. Their greed and act of rampage earns them only vexation and nectar turned into gall. These assailants always leave their bad smell behind. The pleasure, the sweetness and tastes of nectarous, ambrosial feast and basking in the perfumy surroundings is little known to them.

Like wise, few centuries back when most of the world was primitive; European nations were rich in industrial knowledge, and were equipped with skills and technology. In quest of markets to sell their product they made great voyages.
Most of their destinations were in far off, uncivilised, primitive world. While selling the product they also transferred some user’s knowledge and know how to the buyers. By doing this they were serving the cause of God to spread the knowledge and disseminate the light to the darker world.

In return they use to come back home loaded with riches and merchandised of far off lands. These riches were the pleasant rewards like the nectar bestowed to bees for carrying out their angelic duties.

In the past this unspoken covenant of serving the cause by western nations was seen credible. In the process the recipients learned and gain knowledge and voyagers amassed mountain of wealth and riches. Back home, general living in Europe was transformed and once thatched roof buildings were seen turned into lofty high rising…dwellings.

Depending upon the influence established in their trading domains, different European countries started exploiting the host countries and wade their ways to settle there in on permanent basis. New plans were formulated to conquer the world and bring the lucrative lands in their folds as well as to pillage the spoils and amass wealth. Various methods were tried to subjugate and emasculate the local chieftain and natives. With the increase in the greed and race to control and grab the land; local chieftains and tribes were very tactfully pitched against each other and famous technique of ‘divide and rule’ was the order of the day. Most of the countries of South America, Middle East, Africa, Indian subcontinent and Far East started becoming colonies of foreign powers. Thus a colonial era came into existence.

The new settlers brought in their own administrative set up and enforced their own rules to gain administrative control. Local languages learning increased and slowly the institutions for education, and centres for establishment of law and order started taking place. Roads and communications improved. Locals were also engaged in administrative set ups. The once wild countries now, started getting into orderly shape, with a western touch. This was befitting and was going well in a way. Although all the ‘going out’ from such countries in the form of wealth, riches and merchandise etc were much more than what was being received in; in the form of improving of system in the countries, their roads, communication and state of administrative order.


God has created a balance world and loves fairness in the business of give and take by his people. The Koran, (the latest book of instruction of God) on the subject of balance and justice, says:
Ch: 57 (Al Hadid) v 26
“Verily, We sent Our Messengers with manifest Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance that people may act with justice;...Surely, Allah is Powerful, Mighty”.

As the time passed, in order to extend the control and to avail full domination of colonies, many other methods were also adopted. To coerce the natives to adopt a western way of life, the tool of Christianity; the religion of the subjugating western powers, was also brought in and was vastly used. It worked successfully and conversion to Christianity by the western Christian priests at a massive scale is seen on records. With the help of Christianity a full domination was achieved in allmost all the colonies; from American continent, to Africa, Indian subcontinents and to the Far East. The famous African shibboleth fits the situation; ‘they gave us the Christianity but took away our piece of land’,

This was followed by a full occupation, by using the armed forces. Military cantonments, strong built government buildings, forts and other strong holds were built. Although the entire Middle East was also in occupation but because of presence of the Muslims Holy cities of Mecca and Medina and some old strong holds of Ottoman Empire were still live and effective in Iraq Syria and Turkey; there was a limited conversion to Christianity in Middle East.

This phase is stretched on a long period of time. The colonial western powers like England, France, Spain and smaller countries like Portugal and Nether land also exploited their colonies on full scale and extracted all the possible riches and wealth of these colonies; depriving the native of their rights till such time that these were fully squeezed and depleted.
Enough is enough and God, could not see their hold no further. Before it was stretched too far; God almighty gave a stir; right the heart of Europe; a man like Hitler came into action. He stirred and toppled the colonial bases at home and this eruption turned into WWII. Resultant; there were untold Atrocities committed and millions of people including colonial forces perished. Losses were so huge that it forced all the European colonial powers to pack up from their colonies. More than forty enslaved countries were set free. One wonders who could be crowned as victorious or leader in this operation of freedom and salvation?

After WWII, there came a run of cold period: then came a fall of Soviet Empire. Soviet Union packed up and retreated from Afghanistan. The vibrant proxies like Pakistan were in play and in full action to push forward the new American agenda. Soviet were also forced to say good by to her various coerced states of her former Empire and they were all released of Soviet Shackles.

After the fall of Soviet Union and having the cold war phase also ended, World has ended up in the lap of the lone super power--United States. United States supremacy seems to be bent to take the world for a big ride of –US heavens called ‘New American Century’. This is era of ‘advance technology and information and the flood gates of information are open. Common man is in access of it. The abundance of all sorts of information demands sifting of the clues to find the obsolute truth. To control and block the flow of true information or spread misinformation; this has given a birth to the new think tanks of Neocons to devise their policy of ‘Fallacy and Deception’. This policy is very keenly being revered by United States and her other allies’.

In order to avail the hegemony in the world and to establish US Empire, a phoney war; in the name of ‘Global war on terror’ is on. To push forward the agenda of American Empire and bring all the lands; rich in world economic resources into American fold; a huge number of armed forces are in operation, in Middle Eastern theatre. We live fully enslaved to the well stretched clutches of media and find ourselves in a full grip of it. To keep the public opinion as favourable and to cover up the atrocities being committed at abroad by our armed forces; new rules of exception on ‘self devised morality base’ are frequently carved. Various proviso to avail a favourable public opinion; are skilfully formulated and modified on daily bases. This is coercing us to live a life hung between terror and death, while leaving us with no clues to sift for the truth or source of information fed to us.

There seems to be now only two super powers, in operation in the world; ‘United States’ and ‘public opinion’. Former is at war with the other but; it is facing lots of difficulties to win over to keep the public opinion in Neocons camps.

US forces in the face of resistance and resilience put up by local decedent groups are also facing a scenario of defeat in Iraqi and Afghanistan theatre. Signs are very much visible.
To create an eruption in the ranks and files of decedents pitched against US; Ralph Peters a,futuristic Neocons member has very conveniently floated an idea of carving the ‘Blood borders’ in Middle East. This may be against the well seated old British colonial rules of division of local communities carved after WWII. But it has the potential to dustup an upheaval in Middle East for times to come.

Wishing Middle East a better future may seem to be a far cry; till some times that God also finds it as; enough is enough and some devoted man appears in Americas and stir the home base; and world is de-polarised. The People like Robert Murray are already predicting ‘the decline and fall of US Empire’.
---------------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for None

Brenda C.
You are criticizing supporters of the Iraq war for not grasping the reality of the situation and taking at face value what other proponents of the war are saying about its progress. You are guilty of the same illogic however, since you are appraising the progress of the war based on what other opponents of the war are saying. Sure, proponents' understanding of the war may be skewed by talking to service men or listening to talk radio, just as opponents' understanding may be skewed by ideological allies in the media and in political action organizations that attempt to drown out debate (Moveon.org) by being louder and more obnoxious than everyone else.

Stated goals of the US pre-war were to ensure Iraq had no WMDs, depose Saddam and install a democratic government with hopes of stabilizing Iraq and destabilizing the Iranian regime and other rogue nations that potentially would assist terrorists. The reality of Iraq is that 3 of those 5 goals were accomplished: we ensured Iraq had no WMDs (and potentially did not since 1998), we deposed Saddam, and we have taken steps to create a democratic government for Iraq. So far, Iraq is still unstable (but no longer a threat to its more peaceable neighbors), and the Ayatollahs are still pretty comfortable in Iran, but those are long-term goals. 3 out of 5 is no failure, particularly since the other 2 goals are still possible.

et al:
Excuse my mispelling "Afganistan"

History Diva:
I add that this war in Iraq is “containment”.

Anyone that does not believe that we are in a religious war, not one of our choosing, is naïve. While most Muslims are not out fighting Americans in Iraq, or blowing up anyone around them in homicide bombings, they still believe that Islam will be the religion of the world-no matter how it is achieved. This is their religious teaching. The radical fundamentalists are just carrying out Muhammad’s what is encouraged in his writings.

If we are not victorious in Iraq and Aphganistan, by establishing a democracy of more moderate Muslims, then all future generations of non-Muslim nations will pay the price.

Mountain Rose
Let me get this straight. The problem with liberals can be found in their DNA and you are a daughter of liberals so you share in this genetic defect.

Well Phylo
So you have expanded your vocabulary, well isn't that sweet. Now you are starting to sound just like a foul mouthed, hate filled liberal. Congratulations.

Mr.Elder cited some reports, I do not believe he claimed those reports were charged with examining one specific thing. The reports contain information that is relevant to the issue no matter the reason for their commisioning, yet you base your entire criticism on a document which you admit to have not seen.

You, sir, are precisely why the left is having, and will continue to have, a hard time bringing back mid-America. There is little reasoning done on your side, every disagreement devolves into accusations of being a liar mixed with vulgarity. Show me where the Democrats are more than crude words and venomous retoric and you may have my attention until then you are just another shrill.

JohnL1 Had it Right

.....Why are we in the Middle East?...because Oil is a strategic resource that fuels our economy and without it we will descend into a second rate power and our standard of living will be sink to the level of Europe...sounds like a good enough reason for me...

.....I would be in favor of taking over the oil fields by military force and setting up puppet governments run by strongmen who would be loyal to us in exchange for security...

.....this is a simple, direct and honest approach that makes a whole lot more sense than trying to turn centuries old Theocracys into Democracys...

.....Islam is a Theocracy and if the people are given the vote they will vote to remain a Theocracy...so we are just spinning our wheels and wasting lives and resources for no good reason...

.....my philosophy would be...we have the bomb...you don't...supply us with oil...or become glass...I like that...it has a nice ring to it.....COLOSSUS


Re: Kimberly
I love Kimberly! She makes me proud to be a “conservative”. I remember, while attending UCLA in 1968, being as naïve and ignorant as she is today. “A liberal”.

She forgets all the terrorist attacks that preceded 9/11 which received little, or no, response from America/Bill Clinton that gave the terrorists a false sense of security to attack the towers with impunity. Had the American response been more severe before 9/11, neither the Afghan nor Iraq wars would have been necessary. This would have saved the many lives that have been lost since then and we could have continued our efforts against Hussein and Iraq.

So put the blame for the lost lives of all nations where it belongs-the liberals!!

You know
The Middle East is a big problem for us. I liked the way Reagan handled it. He had this man he used; I forget his name, who kept a lid on the religious violence. This man also kept the oil flowing and stood as a bulwark against Iran and fundamentalism. He was great and to help him we provided him with military intelligence, chemical and biological weapons. We sure could use that guy now. I wonder what ever happened to him.

Missing in Action: Ruthlessness....
Last night on the military channel was a show about the early trials and errors of the RAF and
USAF bombing campaign over Nazi Germany. What I
found particulary interesting was the rating
categories of the battle plans and tactics. One
of them was the ruthlessness towards the Nazi
military/industrial complex and German civilians. There was no handwringing or second
guessing despite the toll taken on German civilians.

Today we have to be polite when we fight a war. The thugs causing the trouble in Iraq are just that and need be to be ground up into road kill.
The points Larry makes should be carefully considered. If we abandon Iraq, Iran will effectively control the worlds second largest supply of oil reserves when you combine the two.
And speaking of Iran, they really do need a good
butt kicking.

This war should be winding down by now. If it were fought with the dgree of ruthlessness we dispatched towards the Nazis and Japanese in WWII
it would be.



Definition of peace
Wise one writes, "Liberals define "contained" the same way they define "peace and prosperity". When half a million Rwandans are being slaughtered liberals call it "peace" because it isn't happening to them and theirs."

Right on the money! This is what's wrong with the appeasers and pacifists. They just don't get that peace is more than the absence of violence directed against themselves. That's why their Lennonist chanting of "Give peace a chance" is so stupid. You can't have peace when faced with fanatics, any more than you can negotiate with them.

Rose
Tbells bafflement is easy to understand. He thinks the left pays normal attention to facts, as they make a decision. They don't of course. Even facts which consist of what they themselves said and did on public record mean nothing. If they didn't want us in Iraq, they could have voted against going. They had every info source the prez did. I've quit reading their posts, let alone try to see where they are coming from or attempt any civil dialog.

Are you out of your mind?
Hello, wake up, Iraq is hopeless. Do you watch the news? Do you have any contacts on the ground in Iraq? Are you on something?

Forget about the past, the president and his administration blew it - big time!

They might have been able to do something had they sent in enough troops; had they listened to the experts who knew something about the history of the country and the fact that it had three main groups who were not fond of each other; had they worked with the Baathists and the army within the first year to see if they could work together for a common end; had they given some of the contracts to Iraquis instead of Halliburton; had they trained their people to learn the language before they went in, etc. etc.

BUT THEY DIDN'T. Their plan was to tell the people back home that things were going fine, and the naysayers were just giving all the bad news and not reporting the good news.

So, we've lost and a lot of fine young men and women and if we don't recognize that we've lost, we are going to lose a lot more.

FeedFwd: Paul Bremer's mistake
"And the corollary on building up the military and police in Iraq is that while many Shiites and Kurds served, few or none were officers. What is required and being done is to develop officers for both the Iraqi police force and military who are non-Sunnis. This just can't happen overnight. Even a 4 year education at a US military academy does not make you an instant colonel, let alone general."

Speaking as a graduate of one of the aforementioned U.S. service academies, Paul Bremer's (Director of Iraq's Post-War Reconstruction effort) biggest mistake was disbanding the entire Iraqi army. In retrosepct, he should have just removed the Pro-Baathist senior leadreship. Quite a few of the pro-Saddam insergency are probably disaffected former Iraqi army enlisted and junior officers.

And Rummy gets the blame...

nice article
I don't know why the administration is so hesitant to address these issues in such plain language. I think the Bush speech writers are preoccupied trying to sound Wilsonian most of the time, which confuses the "1/4 of Americans who are retarded."

Jefff: Don't believe the spin?
Jefff stated:

“As far as containment is concerned it seems ridiculous that we were able to contain the Soviet Union for 40 years but we believe we could not contain a much weaker Iraq.”

You are either being intentionally obtuse or possess a complete ignorance of recent history. Don’t you recall that during the 50+ Cold War the U.S. essentially fought proxy wars IOT check Communist aggression? Remember the Korean & Vietnam conflicts? How about clandestine conflicts like Angola & Nicaragua? How about the invasion of Grenada? Do you know have how many hundreds of USAF & USN servicemen have been shot down & killed while manning unarmed ELINT/SIGINT recon aircraft during the Cold war? Stop making overgeneralizations WRT subjects you apparently know nothing about.

“The fact that we invaded and crushed the Iraqi army in record time and failed to find any WMD points to an obvious lesson that most people seem to want to ignore; the sanctions were working.”

As I recall Sadam was threatening to let loose his WMDs up to and after the first U.S. tanks entered Baghdad. Hindsight is 20/20. He used WMDs on his own people, hence the prudent person would think that he didn’t just “blow his entire wad” attacking his people & would reserve a cache to address the threat of foreign invasion. WRT sanctions, the “Oil for Food” scam allowed him additional $$$$ that would have used to re-constitute his WMDs once the international media “laser beam” was once again removed from Iraq. More “shoulda/coulda/woulda” sophistry from a person that has probably never been responsible for anyone but himself. Leave important decisions for the ADULTS in charge.

Phylo Se Fizer -- thanks!
It's nice to hear a leftie admit that the charges that "Bush Lied" are not based on any conclusive available evidence.

Here we are, engaged in a war. And here are the lefties saying, as though they knew something they only wish to be true, that the Commander in Chief lied. We get all the "Bushitler" stuff from them, all the weird and paranoid articles about the price of oil and Halliburton and the rest (Tell me, who else does what Halliburton does? ) -- an inchoate chorus of accusations seemingly designed to weaken our war effort and increase our peril.

It would be useful if the thoughtful and intelligent (and literate) among the left would read the political history of the Civil War and focus on the resistance Lincoln met. For the rest of the left, it really does seem that you do not understand what war is and/or you never met a war you didn't want the US to lose.

Pay attention to what Phylo says: There is NO EVIDENCE that Bush lied. Then, oh lefty, ask yourself what it says about YOU that you are so certain he did lie.

Why the why?
I never understand this debate. There were 24 reasons listed on the war resolution. Democrats and Republicans debated them, and voted in favor. Before we went in, most opposed did so not because the reasons were invalid, but because we didn’t have full support from out “allies”, or because we were already in Afghanistan. Debating “was it worth it?” will go on for decades, and debating “what do we do now?” is necessary, but debating “why are we there?” should be long gone. Anyone with short-term memory, please check the Iraqi Liberation Act in 1998, of the war resolution, and move on.

Wiseone! EXCELLENT!
Enough said.

heard an interesting discussion today...
It looks like the reason for continued violence in Iraq is related to the fact that the Sunnis under Saddam were guilty of such crime against humanity directed primarily at Shiites and Kurds that the Shiites and Kurds want them prosecuted for war crimes. The Sunnis, even those who weren't guilty of anything, but especially those who were have nothing to lose. If they give up, they face trial and certain execution. If they fight, they can die on their own terms. The debate in Iraq is hown far down the food chain in the old Saddam regime do you go with war crimes prosecution and punishment. Those who were nearer the top know their fate and really have a motive to prevetn an agreement being reached on this point.

And the corollary on building up the military and police in Iraq is that while many Shiites and Kurds served, few or none were officers. What is required and being done is to develop officers for both the Iraqi police force and military who are non-Sunnis. This just can't happen overnight. Even a 4 year education at a US military academy does not make you an instant colonel, let alone general.

Hey pitbull
Let me try to help.

When kimberly or some other lib says Saddam was "contained" she means that he wasn't attacking or killing her or anyone she knows or cares about about personally.

She means that all of the 200+ attempts by his "security forces" to shoot down US and British planes patrolling the "No-Fly" zones failed.

She means that the $25,000 bounties Saddam paid to families of suicide bombers didn't go for the killing of any of her friends or family.

She means she literally doesn't care if former President George H. W. Bush, who Saddam tried to assassinate, lives or dies.

She means that if the terrorists who were trained how to hijack planes in the fuselage of a US passenger jet that Saddam kept in his TERRORIST TRAINING CAMP in Salman Pak haven't killed any of her friends - at least not yet.

She means that the billions of tax dollars we were spending to "contain" him didn't bother her because 96% of it those tax dollars were confiscated from "the rich" (liberals define "rich" as anyone who earns more than they do).

Liberals define "contained" the same way they define "peace and prosperity". When half a million Rwandans are being slaughtered liberals call it "peace" because it isn't happening to them and theirs.

When the stock market is bubbling just before a collapse liberals call it "prosperity" because there is a liberal Democrat in the White House who supports legalized abortion and knows the collapse won't happen until his term expires.

In short, pick an issue, and with liberals it's always about "me" first, abortion second, and redistribution of (other people's) money third.

Him too.
I left Phylo out of the "why bother" list.

Who listens?
Does anyone actually listen to Rooney anymore? Network "news" hasn't been tuned in at my house in at least 10 years. I quit watching "60 Moonbats" longer ago than that.

It's kinda like reading a post by Kimberley or R2D2 - why bother.

Phylo out... of your mind!
Keep drinking the Kool Aid Phylo dough! you're going to need it.

On November 8th your meme will be that the Republicans stole the election.... again!

So Jefff thinks the sanctions worked....
While Pres. Bush was courteously waiting for the UN to do its thing prior to toppling Saddam, do you seriously believe that weapon caches of all kinds were not spirited to Syria, perhaps Iran? Catering to the criminals at the UN gave Saddam at least 4 months to move these. Try to be a logical thinker.

Hans Glick (communist) probably feared for his life if he'd "found" WMDs. He was fairly useless.


Kimberly
The only two words in Kimberly's post that make sense are at the end when she says, "I'm confused".

Phylo
Naughty naughty name calling!

I find it interesting that one moment Bush is depicted an evil all-powerful genius, and the next an ignorant country bumpkin.

Prove to me please that it is Bush keeping a Senate report secret. Could it have anything to do that most of them are back home wooing the voters, Nah.

This is just a battle
Jeff writes:"Despite all the spin on this page you can not ignore the fact that this was an elective war not a necessary one."
-- It's similar to elective surgery. Sooner or later an operation will be necessary. Only the timing is "elective". Waiting for surgery or war to be forced upon us gives the enemy or the disease process the upper hand. In other words, elective is good, not bad.

"Our risk from Sadaam did not increase after 911 because Sadaam had nothing to do with 911."
-- This is a common remark from those who would prefer to let the terorrists keep the initiative. Advisors to Clinton connected Saddam to the first WTC attack. And despite the anti-war yammering about retaliation and vengeance, this is not about "getting back" at those directly responsible for the 9/11. It's about weakening terrorists, making terrorism to expensive to carry out and terrorists too risky for nations to harbor and support. The current war in Iraq is, in a way, not even about Iraq. It's about a sub-, trans- or meta-national group of murderous psychopaths and the governments who harbor and support them.

"As far as containment is concerned it seems ridiculous that we were able to contain the Soviet Union for 40 years but we believe we could not contain a much weaker Iraq."
-- See above. Another common error among the anti-war gang. This is not simply about Iraq, any more than Korea was just about Korea. Anymore than El Alamein was about Africa. Moreover "Containing the Soviet Union" was accomplished with lots of chronically hostile situations. Come to think of it "containing the Soviet Union" isn't exactly correct either. We were trying to contain expansionist, imperialist, totalitarianism, one large example of which was the USSR. What we have here is similar in a few respects. It's not a nation, as such, that is our enemy. History will look back on t his as the "Battle for Iraq", part of the larger WOT, which will continue for decades, I suspect.

It's charming to find an anti-war advocate and polemicist who knows the difference between an error and a lie.

Ah, the naivete of the Kimberlys....
Others above have said it better, but good heavens Kimberly and friends, you are naive. To say that only nukes are WMD is just plain ignorant. Look up the words "mass" and "destruction."
What you see in Iraq now is not civil war, but tribal war, amongst people from not only Iraq but neighboring countries as well, seeking land, oil, power. And Mahdi should've been imprisoned or shot long ago.
Kimberly, you and other lefties are of the instant coffee generation, I'll bet, wanting everything in 2 minutes' time. And if you don't get it, you stamp your foot and cry/whine/growl/complain/tantrum.
Poor baby. Perhaps when they come HERE for your HEAD you'll get it.

Intellectual Prostitution/ cross breedin

Just got through reading about a military operation in Iraq with a noticeable anti-US turn, then discovered the same article almost word by word as a TIME magazine online posting. The origin was "Electronic Iraq" which is an offshoot of Groundstream.org, whose board members have affiliations with Tides Foundation, NOW legal defense fund.

Mountain Rose and NRAlifer
Yes I've seen the similarities many years ago as well. Another one of their tactics is to ignore the same issues that they seemed to condone when it suites them... such as Bosnia. We bombed them on what intelligence data? Clinton never got UN permission. You can't win with these moonbats, you'll just find yourself fighting the classic "rope a dope".

Iran
is a regional player in that area, whether we like it or not. It's their backyard, not ours. They will probably get the bomb within a few years, and there's not much we can do about it except to remind them that any use of it would result in a devastating response from the U.S. and Israel.
North Korea already has nukes, or at least the capability to make them. They're a real unknown-but again, we possess enough firepower to obliterate them if they use a nuke.
It's a scary world folks, but no scarier than the one most of us grew up with (the Cold War).

Open Letter to Andy Rooney
I thought Larry's letter was elegant in its clarity and simplicity. BUT, what surprised me most was the fact that Andy Rooney is still alive, let alone working.

The last time I watched 60 Minutes had to be at least 10 or 15 years ago, and I thought he'd lost it then. The producers of that show, what must they be thinking?

Don't believe the spin
This whole article sets out to answer the question "Why are we in Iraq?" The author then spends a great deal of the article in a synopsis of the pre-invasion intelligence that led us to attack Iraq. Regardless of your oppinion of this conflict, it seems we all have to agree that our pre-war intelligence was DEAD WRONG. The logical conclusion is that we are in Iraq due to our own intelligence failures. As far as containment is concerned it seems ridiculous that we were able to contain the Soviet Union for 40 years but we believe we could not contain a much weaker Iraq. People are fond of saying that "911 changed everything" but that is a species commment. Our risk from Sadaam did not increase after 911 because Sadaam had nothing to do with 911. The real change that happened after 911 was that we had the support of the entire world which would have allowed us to maintain or tighten the sanctions we impossed on Iraq, a support that we have now squandered with a useless and doomed war. The fact that we invaded and crushed the Iraqi army in record time and failed to find any WMD points to an obvious lesson that most people seem to want to ignore; the sanctions were working. Despite all the spin on this page you can not ignore the fact that this was an elective war not a necessary one.

hindsight is 20/20
I think that looking at things in retrospect Gregdn's point is valid, although I concur that given the info at the time the choice to invade was valid.

Supposing Iraq had been left alone, they'd probably be just about as close to getting the bomb as Iran by now. Once they had them they'd be too busy pointing their nukes at each other to bother anyone else, and if anything happened they'd have put each other out of their misery. Although this assessment itself is requires a fair number of assumptions, as does ANY assessment but to hear the carping you'd think we'd have to be able to predict the future accurately 100% of the time or be 'lying' when we're wrong. I guess this means that Miss Cleo will have to be the Dems Presidential nominee.

Gregdn, Kimberly
If Iran and N. Korea are the real threats, would you support going to war with those countries?

pitbull - your assertion that kimberly must be blonde is the worst blonde joke I've ever heard.

I'll say it again.........
What is it going to take to get the "deciders" (AKA President Bush) attention to serious thought on Iraq and the terrorist problem?

Senator Warner says the Iraqi government must take charge, Senator Graham says Rumsfeld and American Generals are failing, Senator Schumer says the Administration is off course, Senator Clinton says blah, blah, blah......but no one, I repeat no one, can apparently see the real problem in Iraq and with the terrorist problem in general.

This is about American leaders who just don't get it...both parties....nor does the media get it!....WAKE-UP. Nearly everyone is pole vaulting over mouse manure while ignoring the problem in Iraq being Iran and Syria...It's about Iran and Syria stupid...take a breath and see the obvious.

The root of the problem is those elements outside Iraq supporting the terrorist, radicals, criminals, etc. with arms, money, sending fighters, into Iraq....it serves little to no purpose continuing to spill American blood while running here and there putting band-aids on flare-ups in Iraq...it distresses me to see American life lost while continually allowing Iran and Syria to fuel the fighting with no accountability...they're getting a free pass for killing our men and women...how long will America tolerate bureaucratic incompetence and pip squeak foreign leaders who shame us at the United Nations?

Unless Syria and Iran are held accountable the mayhem, butchery and killing situation in Iraq, Lebanon, Palestinian territory and other places will continue and Americans will lose life, blood and limbs...there is an endless supply of brain-washed, suicidal Islamic killers, thus, unless the brain is crushed that is sending them, hope for even a political settlement is whistling in the wind.

American leaders are betraying our troops with their unwillingness to hit Iran and Syria, where the real problem lies...it's called gutless leaders...men and women in positions of authority without the courage to place the priorities of America before their own selfish political ambitions.

Kimberely Klueless
Yeah I love the way Saddam was contained by the "Oil for Food" program. The only thing he contained was his laughter at the US and the rest of the world!

posts
Kimberly didn't insult anyone. She didn't make personal comments about Mr. Elder or his article. She's wrong in her argument and conclusion but she voiced both in reasonable thoughful discourse. Guys, I hate to say it but some of "us" are sounding suspiciously like "them" today.

JUST ONE PROBLEM LARRY
Your last paragraph, a quote from the old coger.

"President Bush sketched an expansive vision last night of what he expects to accomplish by a war in Iraq. Instead of focusing on eliminating weapons of mass destruction, or reducing the threat of terror to the United States, Mr. Bush talked about establishing a 'free and peaceful Iraq' that would serve as a 'dramatic and inspiring example' to the entire Arab and Muslim world, provide a stabilizing influence in the Middle East and even help end the Arab-Israeli conflict."

Never going to happen, please see the first response to your column today by FOWG, most importantly the last sentence.

Visit http://www.headsneedtoroll.org and post your views, thoughts and opinions.
Heads Need To Roll


Ignore her, mabe she will go away...
Why is anyone reading Kimberly? Ignore her comments...she gets her talking points from Carville and Begalla...don't y'all smell that?
..and Gregdn, too..we will have an election is a few days...perhaps that will shut them up for a while.

Elder
"-- Meanwhile, neighboring Iran defiantly pursues nuclear weapons. Bush reasoned that a free, democratic and prosperous Iraq would destabilize Iran,"

Probably the dumbest thing we ever did- knocking off Iran's worst enemy, and the only power in the region strong enough to check that country.

Oh, Kimberly-babe . . .
you still get it wrong after being told day after day.

If Sadam was "contained", how did he corrupt the United Nations and Kofi Anon? Sadam got billions selling oil vouchers.

His agents were trying to get uranium in Niger (and other sources). That's not "contained".

Sadam was shooting at coalition aircraft in the no-fly zone. That's not "contained".

Sadam was too busy murdering Iraqis to be "contained" by the completely ineffectual and corrupt United Nations.

If Sadam was "contained", why did Clinton claim Sadam was in possession of WMD? Why did Clinton shoot cruise missiles at Baghdad?

Packrat
"They think: That President could do it all, why can't Bush? "

I wish that were hyperbole.

AudiR10

Amen,
You are absoulely right!

Way too many people expect world diplomacy to be wrapped up in 30 minutes like it was on "West Wing". They think: That President could do it all, why can't Bush? :>

Rebuilding Germany took 6 years
Well, six to ten years depending on which account you read, but longer than we've spent in Iraq. And Germany had a history to which we could relate, rather than a history of tribal factionalistic violence. In today's microwave culture, where everything has to be solved in one hour with time off for commercials, the only real problem in Iraq is tha screaming babies who want life to come with a Fast Forward button so they don't have to wait for events to unfold.

And of course one part of this screaming impatience is the lack of faith in anything but their Masters, who never tell them what they have in mind but just offer them a new and different Binkie to keep them quiet.

The one thing the modern ADHD Generation can't stand is the fact that Things Take Time. Perhaps it would help some of them to be present at a total solar eclipse. I saw one in 1982, and it was an epiphany to me when I heard fretful whining voices complaining "Oh, it can't be ending already!" I wonder how many of them had the epiphany that there are some things in this world and out of them that we simply cannot control? This, I think, is the one thing teenagers hate most of all: the knowledge that there are some things they cannot affect by kicking and screaming....

My Turn...
Sadaam may have been contained, in the sense that he wouldn't have invaded his neighbors, while we were there. You know that we wouldn't have stayed there indefinitely, to keep him in check. Many a defector has said that Sadaam was merely waiting us out, in order to resume his nuclear ambitions.
Sadaam had in fact kicked out the inspectors on many occasions. We removed them in the run up to war, again after prolonged deception on the part of the Iraqi's.
You cannot redefine "WMD" based on the distinction between nuclear and Chemical/biological weapons. They are both capable of "mass destruction", especially of human life.
What we know now, and have always known, is that not just the US, but practically the whole civilized world believed Sadaam had stockpiles, due to the fact that after Gulf War I, the weapons we found, and those that the regime declared, could not all be accounted for as being destroyed.
The questions the skeptics ought to be asking is "What happened to all of those weapons?".
If you think that Bin Laden's aims are merely "more hatred for the US", then why is he still out there making threats? I guess he ought to be retired, having accomplished his goals.
We can and will "win". That is the only option, for a sane people. Our enemy will not stop until he is defeated, or we "infidels" convert, or are beheaded.
Bin Laden's "nasty surprise" was a response from a president, and a people, that did not match his notion of the US as a "paper tiger" (thanks to Bill Clinton), that would run off with it's tail between it's legs at the first shedding of blood.
If you're still waiting for that "free and peaceful Iraq", Kimberly, there is 80-90% of the country that is just that. The remainder will follow in due course, no thanks to folks like you.
If the whole world hates us for what we're doing, so be it. When the day comes when Osama's boy launch a huge attack on the giant "soft target" that is Europe, once again, they'll come crying to us, begging for help...And we'll be gracious enough not to say "I told you so".

Kimberly, for the Record
Chemical and Biological weapons ARE considered Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Justification for Iraq War
Articles I've read, including this one, have tended to sway me for the reasons we went into Iraq. Up until then, I've questioned whether it made any sense as to fighting terrorists.

I still question whether the administration gave serious attention to all the problems our armed forces and allies could confront.

We hear almost daily reports throughout this battle of insurgents from other middle eastern countries fighting Iraqis and their allies, of Sunnis vs Shiites, of the overall numbers of those who have lost their lives.

This battle is being waged to bring Iraq to a democratic system of government, which will hopefully affect other middle eastern countries. In essence, it is waged to try to secure our own safety.

Outstanding Clairty
Larry, please write a companion article clearly outlining military strategy versus tactics, ("hold the course" vs. adjust to conditions on the ground).
This is not for the hard core left, but to help reinforce presidential support in conduct of the war.

Choices
[T]he effort is difficult and the outcome uncertain, but I think the effort must be made. Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us."

Or we desroy them, all of them. This is still a practical option.
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