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Sunday, September 09, 2007
Kevin McCullough :: Townhall.com Columnist
Liberals: Funding Our Destruction
by Kevin McCullough
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Though they have a hard time recognizing it or even admitting it, liberals in America, are sowing the seeds for the future annihilation of America as we know it.

I say they have a hard time recognizing it, because when conservatives validate such theories, liberals like Los Angeles based talk show host Stephanie Miller makes a joke of it when opposing me on CNN. She said that she "like most Democrats, want to be killed by a terrorist." They're dismissive, derisive, and instead of answering the substance - they resort to snorting at those of us who make the observation. They go to great lengths to defend the New York Times, who told Al Qaeda of our counter terrorism methods regarding the listening in on their phone calls, and the sniffing out and freezing of their money supplies.

The liberals in my city - New York - are at it again, but what you do not realize is that this time, they are forcing us to not only tolerate the scheme but forcing you to cough open your wallet to help fund it.

How?

By using federal as well as municipal tax-dollars to open, operate, and secure an Islamic Madrassa in Brooklyn cleverly disguised as a public school.

New York City has whined and complained about Homeland Security funds, but who in Washington D.C. could really justify putting two vans worth of extra police on security detail for a school this small?

The great con is that liberal Mayor Michael Bloomberg and his Democratic lackey NYC Schools Chancellor Joel Klein are out spreading the lie that their is no religious influence or indoctrination occurring at the school. So the tax-payers held their breath to see if Klein and Bloomberg were telling the truth.

They weren't!

The first lesson on the first day, of the first week of the new school year for the fifty-seven students that are attending the madrassa was a guest lecture by Imam Al-Hajj Talib Abdur-Rashid, of the Mosque of Islamic Brotherhood in Harlem.

No religious instruction? But the first lesson is by an Islamic religious leader?

And the subject of his first lesson: "Jihad!"

So you have a religious leader, teaching on one of the most controversial doctrines of the Islamic faith on the very first day, who could have guessed?

But this wasn't the first sign of trouble.

Midway through the summer the woman tapped to be principal of the tax-payer funded madrassa, Debbie Almontaser, suggested that perhaps the way the school could raise funds to help with additional programs (you know the junior suicide bombers of America) could be to sell t-shirts that announced an "Intifada" in New York. Thinking we were all as daft as Democratic Congressional delegations she explained that it did not mean what we think it means. Within a day or so my listeners had delivered thousands of phone calls to the city council, most were rebuffed. It was only after Almontaser was discovered to have direct ties to members of Hamas and Hezbollah that she was finally relieved of her duties.

Considering that one of the doctrines of Islam allows Muslims to lie to anybody and everyone we should not be surprised that they would say one thing to our face and then flip into Arabic and begin the brainwashing cycle of the next generation. Islamic scholar Robert Spencer indicated on my show a week ago that Muslims who claim not to practice jihad fall in one of two categories. 1)They are bad muslims not as fully committed to their faith as they should be, or 2)They are practicing Islam as it is allowed when Islam is the minority in the nation. They are allowed to lie to, and even cooperate with,  the culture long enough for Islam to take root and then spring to fundamentalism when the numbers are in their favor.

Daniel Pipes in writing for the New York Sun this week also outlined the troubling scenario of previous Muslim school settings on American soil being used to advance radical Islam and pan-Arab nationalism.

Why Bloomberg, Klien, and liberals in general are such stooges for the Islamic shuck and jive is little beyond comprehension.

Islamic scholars like Spencer, and Dr. Ergun Canor, have long pointed out that the Islamic experience is, not akin to, nor compatible with the American mainstream. In Arabic society and culture there is no distinction between the mosque, the school, the house of government, the home, or the courts - it is all Islamic. All of the systems are centered around the teachings of the religion. And when the religion is as big of a fraud as Islam is, tight control must be maintained over every aspect of life.

So when liberals speak of tolerance for Islamic instruction, what they mean is, "let's let them convert the mind, bodies, and souls of the next generation." No wonder Osama spoke with such high praise for the Democrats in his video this week.

I would like to see every American that reads this column to dial this number 202.224.3121 next week and demand that Congress rescind all federal education dollars alotted to the New York City public schools until this madrassa is closed. Call several times a day. Call several days this next week. Call your Congressional House members and your United States Senators.

Britain is presently looking to expand the number of Muslim schools its tax-payers will fund. The foolish thinking there is like those of the American left, "give them what they want and they will be nice to us."

100% WRONG!

It is the goal of Islamic society, faith, education, and law to convert the world to Sharia rule and it is their commitment to wage jihad until such occurs.

In light of this I find it repulsive that liberals can be so naive so as to insist that we pay for that coming destruction out of our pocketbooks today...

And its time to say so!

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About The Author
Kevin McCullough is the nationally syndicated host of "'Xtreme' Radio and columnist based in New York. He blogs at www.muscleheadrevolution.com. His second book "The Kind Of MAN Every Man SHOULD Be" is in stores now.

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it is rather sad...
That all organized religion eventually deteriorates into a state of entropy.

Typical of Libs
I asked some questions, and as usual, the libs obfuscated at best or refused to answer at worst. The problem they have is this: many libs are Anti-Semitic and could not care less whether Israel is destroyed. Also, they know that Muslims tend to keep quiet about terrorism out of fear of reprisal for speaking out.

They try to drag out a few extreme examples about "Christians" committing heinous acts and pretend Christianity and Muslim are moral equivalents. It is rather sad really.

Ergun who?
"...Islamic scholars like Spencer, and Dr. Ergun Canor,..."

Look, if you can't spell the names of your own pundits properly, how are we supposed to take you seriously?

http://www.erguncaner.com/home/default.php

I mean YOU are the "journalist" here.

So I looked this guy up online...NOTHIN'!

A scholar? Can you tell me where he received his doctorate? Maybe you can point me in the direction of some of his scholarly works?

He doesn't even list his credentials on his own site.

I'm not even sure if he REALLY is a former muslim as he claims to be.

Anybody got an idea where we can find out anything about this "scholar"?


The Problem with Republicans
BS like this, Democrats are funding Americas destruction????????????

This is the demagoguery of the neo-conservatives...is the destruction of America.

The conservative neo-con water carriers want to distroy every one that is not in obedient lock step with the GOP.

Its the Carl Rove scorched earth politics that the GOP has been using of a decade now. Its not good enough to work towards you ideology you must destroy the other party for GOOD. THAT IS EVIL.

As an independent every time I read BULL like this it drives me away from The Republicans. I see the beady-eyed face of Tom Delay (future felon and uber partisan) and I really think the GOP has gone evil. All the scandals and perversion in the GOP shows me what the truth is...........

GOP hateful mean spirit corrupt lazy incompetent and THEY LOVE LOVE LOVE WAR. Why? Its good for business and all this patriotic talk is a deep and evil lie. Well that is how I feel right now. Dems are not much better but YOU THE GOP GOVE UIS BUSH! I can't forgive that mistake.

PS General David Petraeus WAS SPINNING FOR THE WHITE HOUSE. (If Iraqis killed are shot in the face its NOT sectarian violence, back of the head it counts?)

Luis
"Al Qaeda is a more dangerous enemy today than it has ever been before."

http://www.brookings.edu/views/articles/riedel/20070501.htm

"p!ss poor sense of timing. Until we have the mohameddans and islamofascists under control, maybe with most of them back in their mudhut villages, we don't need no stinking' madrassa."

This would be a mistake. The FBI has gotten many tips from Madrasses informing them of extremist lurking about.

Also, its rude to use the turn islamofascists. What, you want OBL to be some supper hero to 1.6 million people (Muslims)? We can't loose or focus on our serious war on extremist who want to do the West harm, it hurts our progress and inflames more hate.

this is why vouchers are a threat
the great conservative push to give vouchers to public school children will result in 3 million muslim children mandated to attend a madrassas just like this one.

until conservatives see this, they have no credibility when it comes to education.

Touj, the ACLU is trying to subvert
Touj writes: Monday, September, 10, 2007 11:37 AM
So Long
I'm dropping off this thread - I think that it sort of got stuck at the level of My Opine, Gunny (and his claims that the ACLU, like Stalin, is planning to overthrow the US government)
___________________________________________

Touj, the ACLU is trying to SUBVERT this country, trying to remove the moral foundations upon which it was foundied, trying to change it from the highly moral country that it has been to something like the decadent French, Germans, and Swedes now have. Of course, you meant to say "...like Stalin was..." because the poor S.O.B. died a failure, and his wonderful system, that stupidest of the libs/lefties STILL admire, collapsed because of its highly immoral foundations. You cannot advocate abortion as birth control like the USSR did for what? 60 years and make the country work.

theBaron: the lady has bad timing
theBaron writes: Monday, September, 10, 2007 12:50 PM
Specific case lost amid larger issues
I didn't notice among the 200+ posts to this column whether anyone else had heard about the specifics of this school.

According to a piece I heard on the radio--I believe it was on Medved's show--the lady who seeks to open it is apparently not an Islamist in a chadoor or burka, but a Maronite Christian of Lebanese descent. Her intent was to open a school devoted to the study of Arabic and its literature and culture.
___________________________________________

THAT IS VERY NOBLE OF THIS MARONITE CHRISTIAN LADY OF LEBANESE DESCENT. However, she has a
p!ss poor sense of timing. Until we have the mohameddans and islamofascists under control, maybe with most of them back in their mudhut villages, we don't need no stinking' madrassa!

Touj, Osama admitted only recently...
Touj writes: Monday, September, 10, 2007 11:32 AM
Luis, et al
If Osame is so impotent, so weak and so irrelevant, why is his name always summoned by the republicans as a reason for war?
___________________________________________

...that he is impotent militarily, weak, and irrelevant--I think you threw that last one in.

I don't know that Osama himself has been 'summoned' by the Republicans as a reason for war--in fact, I am fairly certain that he has not been 'summoned' as a reason for war.

BUT OSAMA'S ADMISSION OF HIS IMPOTENCE, HIS WEAKNESS, HIS IRRELEVANCE WAS JUST MADE IN THE RECENT VIDEO. BUT YOU KNEW THAT.

Touj, the NYT is treasonous
Touj writes: Monday, September, 10, 2007 11:27 AM
Dollface
My comments had nothing to do with what you read, they were about how you read it. Sorry, but anybody who automatically dismisses anything that appears in the NY Times ends the conversation for me.

When Hal remarked that the CIA had openly admitted to torture prisons and it was reported in the Times you automatically dismissed it as a lie. Of course, that admission won't appear on TH or Fox News at all.
____________________________________________

I would love to see a serious source for the CIA's admission of 'torture prisons.' I can see all kinds of waffling, the CIA people are in great part, libs/leftie, about how maybe they approached the old standards of torture, etc, but for the CIA to say anything that resembles "WE HAVE PRISONS WHERE WE TORTURE PEOPLE," that's tough to accept. So, what is your source, or Hal's?

But certainly the NYT is a treasonous piece of garbage and if any truth appears in it, it is only by mistake.

For dollface
You write about Khalil Gibran: "Khalil Gibran was a Maronite Christian of Lebanese descent. He WASN'T EVEN ARAB and he certainly wasn't a slave to allah."

Could you please enlighten me on Lebanon's ethnic and linguistic history? Last I checked, the vast majority of Lebanese (including almost cent-percent of Maronites) are Arabs, and the country's chief official language is Arabic.

I'll concede that you do have a point in the inaptness of naming a Wahabi Madrasa after a Maronite. I can suggest a few other names than Osama bin-Laden for this madrassa:
(1) Zia ul-Haq, 1971 warcriminal and former president (1977-1988--ironically, he was sent to Hell by one of his subordinates, also a warcriminal)
(2) Abel-aziz Rantissi, co-founder of Hamas (who was justly sent to Hell in 2004)
(3) Abdul Qadir Khan, the mohajir scientist who sold nuclear weapons plans/designs to Iran, Libya, Saudi Arabia, ...

theBaron ?

I may have you wrong here, but why should we fund Islamic schools, when we do not fund Christian, Buddist, or any other religious schools?

If we give religious "Islamic" schools taxpayer funding, why don't the liberals want to fund other relegious schools? Sounds very one-sided on the Liberal-Progressives view.

Liberal-Progressive Democrats are the bigoted and narrow-minded as I see it.

Buffoonery v the Buffoon
First of all, as much as I like Miller, she is a SATIRIST. Why CNN would bring a comedian on to debate says volumes about how serious IT regards the subject. Why not bring on Thom Hartmann to debate KMC, for instance? Because the corporate media does not seem interested in a SERIOUS debate that includes informed progressive liberals. I mean, if they did, Thom would absolutely throw KMC into a tailspin. It's an "unfair" advantage, really. KMC is a serious buffoon set up with a comedian with political acuity who makes her living in buffoonery.


Specific case lost amid larger issues
I didn't notice among the 200+ posts to this column whether anyone else had heard about the specifics of this school.

According to a piece I heard on the radio--I believe it was on Medved's show--the lady who seeks to open it is apparently not an Islamist in a chadoor or burka, but a Maronite Christian of Lebanese descent. Her intent was to open a school devoted to the study of Arabic and its literature and culture.

Now, I agree that we should defend ourselves against those Islamist schools, funded by the Saudis, Iranis and other Wahabbist and radical fundamentalist Muslims, to the point of shutting them down. But aren't we all rushing in this case to condemn, without having heard all of the facts? Does that not play directly into the hands of the Socialists, who accuse us conservatives of being closed-minded racists and bigots?

Hillary delenda est.

Libs funding our destruction
Here is a woman with a soldier husband that sums up just what is of most importance in our political war debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io6lRzz1JVw

they won't invade
Islamic fundamentalists have short and long term goals.
Short term: Destroy Israel, reclaim parts of Spain, Russia and France, and become a nuclear power.

Longer term: Indoctrinate as many future generations on the 'wisdom' of Wahhabism Islam. A worldwide caliphate is the ultimate goal.

The short term goals could be accomplished in 50-100 years if certain political goals are met.(One major one being Israel abandoned and isolated).

As usual the left in America sees about 6 months into the future. Looking at other posts in this thread: To smear America they look 50 years into the past.

Dear Liberals
IF you have the cojones, check my blog for the start of a five part series on HOW the ACLU is destroying America.

Also, coming to my blog is the MONEY behind the ACLU. WHO is funding the (ACLU) All Commies Love Us as well as OTHER GROUPS they fund.

All conservatives, this is required reading and testing WILL be done at the next VRWC BBQ.


Ex Lax
I can see where your opinions are coming from. Join the Cair apologists and give us all a break.

Liberals
You gotta love their tolerance for anyone who agrees with them. Why do they resort to adhominem attacks all the time?

Touj, for your information I read the NY Times, too. I just verify what they write from other sources since they are so obviously biased. I watch Fox News, and CNN. I also read the Wall Street Journal. I also read my local newspaper and the Kansas City Star. I read the Economist every week to get an over-seas prospective. I also read a book an average of every 3-4 days. So don't assume I'm an ignorant cretin because I happen to disagree with you.

correction to my previous post
that should have been 'homosexual BAR bombing'

give Touj a round of applause
Touj writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 8:58 PM
Dollface asked
"Name me one gay club that has been bombed by a Christian fundamentalist."

The Otherside Lounge, Atlanta, Georgia, in 1997.

http://www.sovo.com/2007/2-16/news/localnews/6513.cfm
_________________________________________

Why am I not surprised that a homosexual bar was bombed by a "Christian" fundamentalist, and why am I not surprised that Touj found it. Of course, he only found one because Dollface only asked for one. I am certain that there is one homosexual bombing in the US for every mohameddan/islamofascist atrocity if we really look.

Mc Cullough
Hal, if you are still here, there is an interesting essay on Pasadena Phil's blog. It slams nothing,makes no accusations,is quite thought-provoking.Take a read,if you get a chance.

brian, let's watch them closely
brian writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 9:01 PM
Luis and Dottie
Luis: My point was that the "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear from being watched" mantra is downright Orwellian.
_______________________________________

The reference, "Orwellian" is overused and usually by people who don't know what it means, although I am not suggesting that you don't know--how could I know? I don't think that sensible "watching" is Orwellian.

I DO think that the mohameddans behind the Brooklyn school have something entirely different in mind for their students than the lib/lefty/multiculturalist dupes who are cooperating with them. Do I mean that they are training them to be terrorists? Yes, but not necessarily military terrorists. How about intellectual terrorists? Yes, they might be thinking of teaching them all about American generosity, American democracy, in a word, all of the aspects of American society that make the US vulnerable to a takeover.

And if I am wrong about their intentions, what can we lose by watching them VERY CLOSELY?

Touj, your sweeping statement...
Touj writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 9:26 PM
Luis
"I don't know about the Battle of Algiers, or the battle of Algiers either, but I do know about the battle against foaming at the mouth mohameddans in the US and their lib/lefty friends."

Are you a liberal posing as a conservative in order to make them appear as stupid as possible?

Anyone who doesn't know anything about the Battle of Algiers doesn't know anything, period.
________________________________________________

...doesn't do your case any good. Really? If a poor victim of the American so called educational system did not learn about the Battle of Algiers, or really, the Algerian cause against French colonialism, he doesn't know anything? He did not learn that 2 + 2 = 5? Ooooohhh, the American so called educational system is worse off than I thought, because I would bet a great deal of money that a huge percentage of college grads, graduated during the last 10 or 20 years, don't know about anything about colonialism and its end. And yet the US continues to be the greatest country in the world, economically, militarily, in terms of freedom, oh, let me count the ways...

Touj, who has who pinned down?
Touj writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 10:27 PM
Brian
Abviously, you are still imagining al Sadr, Bin Ladin and scores of Sunni militias on wooden rafts hitting the shores of America.

BTW, who's actually got whom pinned down over there?
_________________________________________

Osama said on the video, word for word, "The American devils have us pinned down over here."

Wellllll, not quite, but he came close. This madman is going to get caught alive soon, I hope, or dead is ok as long as we can identify his DNA. Although early November of 08 would be ideal. Leave it to sneaky George. Who knows, maybe this video is phony and Osama is in the calaboose on Catalina Island under supertight security. Ohhh, I can just picture the situation...

the old Hal is back!
Hal Donahue writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 10:34 PM
Folks
Be well and prosper!
_______________________________________________

I knew that the old Hal was not lost to us forever.

Touj, you are being ridiculous
Touj writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 10:19 PM
Luis
"Americans understand very clearly that it is better that the war against terrorims be fought over there than here"

Luis, Have you even been reading this thread?????

Maybe you can tell me how the terrorists are going to come over here, take over the white house, the pentagon, the congress, and make you accept Islam. Come on, tell me, please!!!!
____________________________________________

You are being completely silly if you think that our concern is terrorists coming over here, taking over the While House somehow, the Pentagon somehow, the Congress somehow, and then make me accept mohameddanism. What we KNOW is that the mohameddans, enough of them, the right ones, have said that they intend to KILL us, to DESTROY the US. BUT YOU KNEW THAT.

How do they intend to do it? Well, if you had asked me before Osama admitted on his videotape that he is impotent militarily, I would have said with a Josay Padiya suitcase bomb, not that I have a very good imagination for terrorist subjects. Now that Osama has admitted that the US has him on the defensive, I have to say I do not know how they would do the things you mention, BUT WE CLEAR THINKING PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DO ALL WE CAN TO NOT GIVE THEM ANY, ANY OPPORTUNITIES.

Hal, wrong again
"We do listen to our Christian leaders and the message is very different from the mohameddan mullahs--with none of them advocating bombing of abortion clinics nor killing abortionists who kill babies. BUT YOU KNOW THAT."

Really listen to talk radio late at nite in the South or heck listen to Pat Robertson.... come on there is no difference except the flock says BS in states well ost of them there is Atlanta and Oklahoma City and who knows what else
_______________________________________________

I listen to the radio quite a bit at night as I am traveling and there is nothing like the frustrated rantings of the foaming at the mouth islamofascists on the radio, nothing. Your imagination is entirely too active. Your desire that Christianity be as bad as mohameddanism has taken control of you.

Double Standard??
McCullough:
"using federal as well as municipal tax-dollars to open, operate, and secure an Islamic Madrassa in Brooklyn cleverly disguised as a public school"

The above sounds very inflammatory (no doubt by design), but there's very little fact following this initial flamboyant alarm.

My kids attended Catholic School for several yaers, and they rode the same buses as the public school kids. Is that the kind of thing that McCullough is ranting about? There's a number of ways that government dollars support all religious schools.

And it seems to me like a *very* reasonable use of taxpayer funds to provide some extra security for an Islamic Parochial School in Brooklyn NYC in 2007.

Hal, you're wrong
Hal Donahue writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 8:16 PM
Luis
"Hal, those 'Christians' who violate the Commandment that says "Thou shalt not kill," by blowing up clinics, all three or four of them, and killing abortionists who kill babies, are not very many, usually insane, but certainly not representative of Christians generally, and certainly not considered by us to be part of us."

Wake up! That is exactly what Muslims say EXACTLY! I know Mullahs good and bad. What I am saying is it is NOT the religion anymore than the IRA condemned Cathlics. Mohammed actually liberated his people and women. How it is interpreted by extremists is sad but not against Islam any more than the Christian hate mongers condemn chriostianity.
_______________________________________________

No, the mohameddans in the US are not saying that the foaming at the mouth islamofascists are just a few and certainly not part of THEIR mohameddanism. Why? Because they know that they will be put on a hit list. CAIR is a good example. No mohameddan or group representing mohameddans has made any statement repudiating violence categorically--it always has some qualifier.

LetsAll Relax, sorry
It appears that I was mistaken in the reference that I gave for the next to last post. Maybe it was not you who asked who had who pinned down. Maybe it was Touj. Not that it matters much. When the sissified Democrat Party pols step out of the way, when they realize they are ineffective in producing a failure for Bush, then we will win the war against terrorism, over there, not here.

Touj
This is a short link BUT a long read after the introduction.
You should save the link if you don't have time now.
You surely need the knowledge it contains.
http://www.usawakeup.org

Landing barges?
We have terrorists in Iraq right now from all over the world.
Did you notice any landing barges?

You think you know something about the history of warfare, SO;
On the subject of landings;
I am sure you have read about Omaha Beach and probably seen documentaries of that landing.

Something is missing from all the pictures.
Something conspicuous by it's absence.
What is not on that beach that should be and WHY?

libs responsible for problems in US
JPH writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 2:21 PM
Conservative wimps & whiners
I cannot believe what a bunch of wimps and whiners conservatives poster here are. Conservatives have dominated the congress, the judiciary, the media and many of the legislatures over the last ten years and yet you blame everything you find wrong with the world on liberals. This is victimhood at its worst.

The Iraq war is a failure, blame liberals. The educational system is not to you liking, blame liberals. The federal government runs a deficit, blame liberals. The courts occasionally rule against you, blame liberals. When will you ever grow up take responsibility for what you have wrought.
___________________________________________

Yes, it is fair to say the the problems in the US come from ill-conceived and ill-executed lib dreams. That would be very easy to defend.

LetsAllRelax
I have an American friend (nothing anti-American about this, it's just an example) living for more than 20 years in Switzerland and he still speaks less than 50 words of German. But he can get away with it as the Swiss (80% anyway) speak English. I know third generation Turks in Germany who can't communicate with their grandparents because they (the kids) don't speak Turkish.
_________________________________________

When all Osama can do is ask Americans to convert and chastise the Democrat Party for not ending the war, WE HAVE HIM PINNED DOWN. I would love to bet that the killing of Osama will be an October 08 surprise. (Reminds me of the joke: What is the difference between Zarqawi and Teddy Kennedy? Zarqawi won't get bombed again.)

Hal Donahue
Are you ADMITTING you do already do everything you can to help America's enemies?

Surely there is something else you can do?
Think hard Hal.

You still did not answer my question.
If you wanted to help defeat America and cause us to loose the Iraq war just like Vietnam;
What else would you do that you are not doing right now?

Folks
Be well and prosper!

myopine
"You still did not answer my question.
If you wanted to help defeat America and cause us to loose the Iraq war just like Vietnam;
What else would you do that you are not doing right now?"

I would take the name myopine and help him all I could,,,,

LetsAllRelax
I have an American friend (nothing anti-American about this, it's just an example) living for more than 20 years in Switzerland and he still speaks less than 50 words of German. But he can get away with it as the Swiss (80% anyway) speak English. I know third generation Turks in Germany who can't communicate with their grandparents because they (the kids) don't speak Turkish.
__________________________________________

The examples you give are the Swiss' and the Germans' problems, and nice, mild Germans are now paying for their generosity to the mohameddans. We are going to insist on assimilation here in the US.

Hal Donahue
I automatically assume anything published in the NYT is some kind of fictional propaganda until proven otherwise.
If it is true I will see it in a reputable media.
Otherwise I will see it debunked.

Considering the way IslamoNazis treat their captives, I have no sympathy for them whatever.

You still did not answer my question.
If you wanted to help defeat America and cause us to loose the Iraq war just like Vietnam;
What else would you do that you are not doing right now?

again, to the old Hal
The US is one huge multicultural stew and that is what made us great. If you are afraid to compete in the world of ideas and action perhaps you should bow down now?
____________________________________________

The stew seemed to work when the Italians and Irish, among others, came to the US. Could it be that they wanted to adapt and learn English, live by US laws? That is not happening when ballots have to be in two or three languages, poorly translated at that, when a mohameddan woman applies for a drivers license and doesn't want to remove her veil. She can go back to her mudhut village and stay at home, why not?

We are not afraid to compete, but the nonassimilaters are not going to be given special priveleges. They chose to come here, they adapt or leave.

to the old Hal, if he is around
Hal Donahue writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 10:58 AM
JFP
Oh what about that extreme right wing Kansas church group who pickets GI funerals saying they deserved it and death to gays?
_____________________________________________

These people, the ones who picket GI funerals, are so far out that they are nowhere, certainly not in the conservative area. They are with the abortuary bombers, they certainly aren't with us. BUT YOU KNOW THAT.

Hal
You really believe what you read in the NY Times? Even after Jayson Blair? Even after they've surrendered their news pages to their editorial page? No wonder you're so misinformed.

Back to the point:
The real point is that if this school is teaching the islamic religion, it is in violation of the Constitution. If islamics want to teach their religion, let them pay for and have private schools like all real religions do, including Jews,Christians of all denominations and fervency, Bhuddists and Hindus.

The islamics want the State to pay for their madrasa. NOT WITH MY TAX DOLLARS mayor bloomingidiot.

mypine
"Those "Secret Camps" GunnyG asked you about?
The woman reporter who made that up admitted she lied.
You don't need second hand lies Hal, you originate plenty of your own through innuendo."

The CIA admitted it today. Check NY Times but elsewhere. Please get a grip. If you favor torture, secret prisons etc admit it. We have them,,,

touj, you are on the defensive
Touj writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 9:30 PM
My Opine 9:08 post
Are you actually Luis? Or is he your mentor and teacher?

Posts like yours give me alot of heart, because it tells me where the intelligence meter of the conservative constituency actally scores.

Hooraaaaaaaaaay!
_____________________________________________

Yes, you do need something to give you heart, whether justifiably or not, because Schumer, la Clinton, Biden, Durbin, Obama and the rest are on the defensive. They have no ammunition left. They have been snookered. But, of course, their position was untenable to begin with. Americans understand very clearly that it is better that the war against terrorims be fought over there than here.

skinny, the reason Hal dislikes the US
skinnywhiteboy/ writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 9:43 PM
Dottie
Hal has a disdain for his country because he doesn't agree with you? LOL
______________________________________________

I think I can speak for Dottie: Hal dislikes this country because he is an indifferentist, a multiculturalist, a diversityist, in a couple of words, a lib/lefty. For a lib/lefty the US cannot be great, it cannot have 200 years of great history, political stability.

skinny, you also are desperate
As to what Hal "did" to me, its right in my post. He wondered if I was an illegal alien, and if I were less than I am, I might have responded differently. Scorned? No, entirely too much attention paid to ME, my person, and not to the point I made, that obviously he could not refute. No, the self controlled Hal is now gone, who knows where, but certainly it is because he, the old Hal, knows he can make no points here.

As to the Battle of Algiers, I am well informed on the subject.

Luis
I think you are wasting precious patience on a signifying monkey.

skinny, no whining on my part
skinnywhiteboy/ writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 9:18 PM
Hal
whatever did you do to poor luis? He's behaving like a scorned lover. Please make it stop! I can't take the whining.
_________________________________

skinny, there is no whining on my part, just statements of fact. Hal is not the same since he has been put on the defensive, and if you have read any posts on columns in the last couple of weeks, he is a changed man, not that I care.

As I have told the two or three people who have hurled ridiculous comments at me, you would do better to present your case than attack me. It simply does not affect me. On the other hand, it shows that you libs/lefties have no rational points to make and are desperate; in your frustration you resort to silly efforts, wasted efforts.

Touj
You have got to be putting on a dumb act to amuse us.

You are overdoing it.
No one could possibly be as dumb as you pretend!

Yes they do
They vote Democrat largely, and there is a historical reason why......they do not vote Democrat because the Republicans are Anti-semites. What about your friend Jesse?

You seem to be very negative Hal
You seem to really have disdain for this country as long as your party is not in the White House.

The American people are not for the liberal socialist vision that the Democrats seem to have. I remember at one point, people thought the Democrats were on the way to extinction, but the pendulum swings. The Republicans need to get back to their true conservative roots, and they will if many have their way.

I think we see what we want to see. You talk about Brits who want nothing to do with the U. S. Well, maybe those Brits know that is how you feel and they say what you want to hear.

The Brits I talked to had some negative things to say about the U.S., and I made it clear that I believe Bush has made many mistakes, but taking the fight to the Islamists is NOT one of them. They agreed and began to tell how the bowing down to the Islamics in their country is leading to a lot of problems and they foresee much worse coming their way. Many Brits truly do NOT like what is happening with regards to the Islamics because they have seen that they make demand after demand while refusing to adapt to the British culture.

Hal Donahue
Yeh, I mean this Kerry;
http://www.kerrystreason.com/index.html

You know, the one who got hit in the butt with a few grains of rice when he fired on a rice barge that was too close and was too stupid to take cover, just turned his butt to the blast.
That rice probably dissolved from his SELF INFLECTED BANDAID wound long ago.
And you are just as big a FAKE as he is!

Whats with your facination with Paraguay?
You have money you want to donate?
Why don't you donate it to the Boy Scouts?
You know?
The Boy Scouts you keep persecuting because they won't let NAMBLA be Scout Masters.

You still did not answer my question.
If you wanted to help defeat America and cause us to loose the Iraq war just like Vietnam;
What else would you do that you are not doing right now?

I put it on a macrokey so I don't need to keep typing it.

Those "Secret Camps" GunnyG asked you about?
The woman reporter who made that up admitted she lied.
You don't need second hand lies Hal, you originate plenty of your own through innuendo.

You a "warrior"? LOL!
You are a sissyfied wimp!
That is the best laugh today.

where is the old Hal?
Hal Donahue writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 8:28 PM
Luis
"I certainly do. The mohameddans, by racial/ethnic profiling need to be scrutinized very carefully in order to prevent further terrorism attacks in the US. If they feel uncomfortable, they can move back to their mudhut villages. "

Luis is a Mexican name are you an illegal immigrant????

You are an idiot. Want to know how profiling works? Watch the Battle of Algiers...
_____________________________________________

This is not the cool, calm, and collected, not to mention, intellectual, Hal, I used to know, the one who used to sign off with something breezy like, "It's been fun. Good night to all." What happened to him?

Now, on the off chance that this is the Hal I used to know but who has been put on the defensive by common sense and has turned insulting and bitter, Luis is not exclusively a Mexican name, and my status here is not your business, but I'll give you a clue, who apparently need one badly: Do you think that an illegan alien would be posting what I post? Further to the clue: The answer is no.

I don't know about the Battle of Algiers, or the battle of Algiers either, but I do know about the battle against foaming at the mouth mohameddans in the US and their lib/lefty friends. Osama is NOT happy with you right now--he thinks you should have been able to get the US out of Iraq and Afghanistan by now. What IS wrong with you?

As to your insults, save them, because they do not affect me. One of the qualities of a clear thinking person is not to be ruffled by personal attacks. On the other hand, your insults do nothing for your case. Typical, pathetic lib/lefty.

Brian
Catholic and Protestant schools in the US could withstand scrutiny to see if they are teaching loyalty or violence, no? In fact, if they are receiving any federal funds in any form they are being inspected more than they need. Consertavism says education is a local matter, but if private religious schools have to be inspected because the mohameddan schools are inspected, I can live with that. Pure conservatism is nowhere to be found in the US, you know that.

Dottie
"As long as any of us continue to elect the type of people that we have put into power on BOTH sides, we are destined to keep going down this road."

Actually not true. The last election was just a start. The Reagan legacy is over now swamped in greed and corruption. Myopine knows this and that is why you are seeing his panic

"...they reserved their harshest judgments for the kowtowing to Muslims being done by the British government. They were rather adamant in their disgust. Their most fervent hope was that the America would never bow down the way England had."

I suspect they were playing you about the "hope America..." but there is lots of hostility there against foreigners. But that said no Brit I know wants any thing to do with the US.

MyOpine
HUH? That was back in May????

"You are a cowardly fake who is trying to be another Kerry, Or Cindy Sheehan."

You mean Senator Kerry who volunteered to go into harms way and still carries shrapnel in his body? That Kerry? You bet your backside I stand with him. Want to be him? No, thank you.

"You WANT America to fail in Iraq.
YOU ARE AN ENEMY COLLABORATOR!"

The troops won in Iraq long ago? What are you missing? Why are they still there?

"You are nothing but a talking ape for the Mullahs."

My nun friend laughed at this she cannot even get me to be Catholic let alone Muslim.

"Do they pay you to betray America?
Are you one of these traitors for pay?"

Why are you not on the way to Paraguay? Money problems? I will help.

Hal Donahue
You are a cowardly fake who is trying to be another Kerry,
Or Cindy Sheehan.

You WANT America to fail in Iraq.
YOU ARE AN ENEMY COLLABORATOR!

Just like I suspected when I asked you that question.
You are doing everything you can right now to harm America.

You are nothing but a talking ape for the Mullahs.
Do they pay you to betray America?
Are you one of these traitors for pay?

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPrint.asp?Page=/Politics/archive/200705/POL20070516a.html

You are at an impasse
Hal, you and My Opine seem to be at an impasse, what good comes from continuing to hammer at each other? You believe the Conservatives have "hurt America almost beyond repair," and many on here believe that it is the liberals who have done so.

As long as any of us continue to elect the type of people that we have put into power on BOTH sides, we are destined to keep going down this road.

I did happen to have the pleasure of sharing a train compartment with some lovely Brits this past spring. They were bound for a soccer match in Rome while my daughter and I were headed for the Vatican. Our conversation did turn to politics, and they reserved their harshest judgments for the kowtowing to Muslims being done by the British government. They were rather adamant in their disgust. Their most fervent hope was that the America would never bow down the way England had.

Luis
"I certainly do. The mohameddans, by racial/ethnic profiling need to be scrutinized very carefully in order to prevent further terrorism attacks in the US. If they feel uncomfortable, they can move back to their mudhut villages. "

Luis is a Mexican name are you an illegal immigrant????

You are an idiot. Want to know how profiling works? Watch the Battle of Algiers...

MyOpine
"If you were trying to help harm America and cause a Vietnam like defeat in Iraq, what else would you do that you are not doing RIGHT NOW?"

Sigh by my lights you conservatives have hurt America almost beyond repair. And you dare ask me that question? ittle man, talk to me when you keep Walter Reed open and our soldiers receiving adequate healthcare. Am I angry you bet. You summer time soldiers could care less about the troops.

"I hear GunnyG asked you a question you failed to answer too?:

The bad NCO by his own admission asked for the location of the US concentration camps and who was there. I said they are state secrets right now but we will find out. So he tried for the that is not an answer argument. Read todays newspapers we have secret prisons and we will not say who is held. US citizens? Who knows.

ANYTHING ELSE LITTLE MAN?

Luis
"Hal, those 'Christians' who violate the Commandment that says "Thou shalt not kill," by blowing up clinics, all three or four of them, and killing abortionists who kill babies, are not very many, usually insane, but certainly not representative of Christians generally, and certainly not considered by us to be part of us."

Wake up! That is exactly what Muslims say EXACTLY! I know Mullahs good and bad. What I am saying is it is NOT the religion anymore than the IRA condemned Cathlics. Mohammed actually liberated his people and women. How it is interpreted by extremists is sad but not against Islam any more than the Christian hate mongers condemn chriostianity.

"We do listen to our Christian leaders and the message is very different from the mohameddan mullahs--with none of them advocating bombing of abortion clinics nor killing abortionists who kill babies. BUT YOU KNOW THAT."

Really listen to talk radio late at nite in the South or heck listen to Pat Robertson.... come on there is no difference except the flock says BS in states well ost of them there is Atlanta and Oklahoma City and who knows what else

Name some conservative anti-semites
It seems to me that the left in this country always takes the side of Arabs against Jews. Wasn't it Jesse Jackson, lib-extrodanaire who called New York City "Hymietown?" Isn't it the libs who moan about our ties to Israel?

again, Brian
Catholic and Protestant schools in the US could withstand scrutiny to see if they are teaching loyalty or violence, no? In fact, if they are receiving any federal funds in any form they are being inspected more than they need. Consertavism says education is a local matter, but if private religious schools have to be inspected because the mohameddan schools are inspected, I can live with that. Pure conservatism is nowhere to be found in the US, you know that.

Hal Donahue
You are ranting like a drunk!

The last time we met I asked you a question you failed to answer.

If you were trying to help harm America and cause a Vietnam like defeat in Iraq, what else would you do that you are not doing RIGHT NOW?


I hear GunnyG asked you a question you failed to answer too?

MyOpine
Leave little man. The America of your dreams never existed thanks to god, allah, the earth mother whoever.

"Don't you tell me to pack my bags and leave America."

The America you seek is in a third world country not doing very well. Leave if you cannot take the discourse. You righties always say love it or leave it. Little man time for you to leave...

"In a medieval society a fake like you could not survive a day. "

Really??? A warrior usually did quite well in those societies. Now what about my comment of no laws...

further, Brian
Further to my previous post, the same scrutiny that is used with ordinary schools should be enought to find out if the mohameddan school has some purpose that is not compatible with American values.

Brian
Luis says
"only if they have something to hide will they resent the scrutiny"

And you claim to be a conservative?
___________________________________________

I certainly do. The mohameddans, by racial/ethnic profiling need to be scrutinized very carefully in order to prevent further terrorism attacks in the US. If they feel uncomfortable, they can move back to their mudhut villages.

Hal, you are losing your creibility
Hal Donahue writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 10:56 AM
JFP
"I don't know of any Christians in America who think it's ok to kill apostates, but there are plenty of Muslims who think this. One could also add in honor killings and rapes of women who are dressed "inappropriately.""

And what about the Christians who use explosives to blow up clinics and gay clubs and kill health care providers? How many years did the local population hide that one Christian Fanatic? If they thought they could get away with it they would. Listen closely to the Christian Mullahs their extreme message is not that different....
______________________________________________

Hal, those 'Christians' who violate the Commandment that says "Thou shalt not kill," by blowing up clinics, all three or four of them, and killing abortionists who kill babies, are not very many, usually insane, but certainly not representative of Christians generally, and certainly not considered by us to be part of us. We do listen to our Christian leaders and the message is very different from the mohameddan mullahs--with none of them advocating bombing of abortion clinics nor killing abortionists who kill babies. BUT YOU KNOW THAT.

Hal Donahue
Don't you tell me to pack my bags and leave America.
If YOU want to live under Sharia law then YOU leave.
As for YOUR medieval crap, STUFF IT!
In a medieval society a fake like you could not survive a day.




LetsAll Relax is wound up tight!
LetsAllRelax writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 6:16 AM
Doomed,
We're all Doomed, Doomed, Dooooommmmed!!!

The Christian right are soooo happy to attack ANY measure of tolerance from the Pinko, Commi, Liberal Left.

But I recall a TV show where a nine-year-old (brain-washed) girl was telling the reporter that all those who did not turn to Jesus wold die and burn forever in the fires of hell.

You want vicious, intolerant, brutal indoctrination. Then you should have gone to the state subsidised Catholic school I went to.

Since when was it Christion behavior to beat 7-year-olds with canes and straps because they got a line from their Cathecism wrong.

You are one sick dood.
___________________________________________

I don't believe at all your version of your Catholic school. I don't believe that 7 year olds were beat, especially not because they got a line from Catechism wrong. Catholicism is is not vicious, it is almost too tolerant, and I don't know how it is subsidized, the schools, that is.

As to the 9 year old brainwashed girl, the difference between her saying it and the islamofascists saying it the analog, is that the islamofascists then try to follow up with violence.

Regarding the Christian right being happy to attack ANY measure of tolerance from the Pinko, Commi, Liberal Left, let me rephrase that: We clear thinking people know a con job when we see it, and it this con job comes from people similar to the perpetrators of the 9/11 airplane hijackings which resulted in 3,000 or so dead, and if these people behind the mohameddan school are clean, then they will not mind the scrutiny--only if they have something to hide will they resent the scrutiny. The US does not need the pinko, commie, libs/lefties helping the enemy, if that is what they are. It is too easy to believe that the imam spoke about jihad to the students. Why take a chance?

Achafalaya Tim
"Hey, I almost forgot: the embedded traitors left us one other legacy: $30 to 52 trillion in debt.

Thanks conservatives and liberals alike, and your 'vendetta on America'."

Oh no baby, that debt is ALL the extreme conservitives. Is it time at last to say Ronnie is really dead?


MyOpine
"All of America is torqued at this Congress.
Both sides, but mainly at Democrats who are blamed for sabotaging National Defense.
This next election is up for grabs on both sides."

Oh really? Please oh please keep up your good work

Hal
Slow down that speed reading, you are missing important words, like "Primary".

The public is fed up with both Parties right now.
The Left slightly more than the Right but it is close.

They are lucky they do not all come up for election at once.
They would probably all get kicked out on their butts!

MyOpine
"The object of that wording in our 1st Amendment WAS to prevent Government from forcing some religion upon us like The Church of England.
It relates to freedom OF religion, not FROM religion."

And that means wicca. Islam and whatever the heck else some person is selling

"Islam is not simply a religion.
Islam incorporates a set if laws (Sharia) as well.
We have our own laws here in America and anyone who is not willing to obey those laws should stay out of America."

Stop this stay out nonsense. Myopine pack your bags and go tyo some third world country like Paraguay which already has the "America" you want. Silly man, christianity doesn't come with laws? Pick up a medievil text book.

Liberals: Funding our destruction
Wow!

Funding our destruction? We've been funding our destruction for decades now: trading with our enemies (China, Russia, The Islamo's, etc, etc.) All made possible by the encouragement and pressure of the 'conservatives' with the concurrence of the 'Liberals'.

What a wonderful, peaceful world we've built up: making ourselves submissive to our enemies, encouraging our financial ruin ny selling our infrastructure out to the highest (as long as it's a foreign) bidder, maintaining completely transparent borders, imprisoning border guards for doing their job(s), refusing to act on illegal (and harmful) entrants into our country...all thanks to the 'moderates'...those wimpish slugs in Congress.

The cleanout last election cycle was not deep enough. The entire lot of the embedded traitors needed to be cast out, from the Janet Reno look-alike Harry Reid on down.

Hey, I almost forgot: the embedded traitors left us one other legacy: $30 to 52 trillion in debt.

Thanks conservatives and liberals alike, and your 'vendetta on America'.

Achafalaya Tim

eddred
Your supposition based on that election is quite false.
Conservatives FIRED a bunch of RINOs because they were TOO Liberal.

It is unfortunate that many on both sides misread the results of that election.
That election resulted from ANGRY Conservatives who had been betrayed by spend crazy Republicans.
As to Democrats doing anything?
Now that they have the power to do something they set there sucking their thumbs and do nothing.

Democrats are like Seagulls.
All they do is crap & sqwak!

All of America is torqued at this Congress.
Both sides, but mainly at Democrats who are blamed for sabotaging National Defense.
This next election is up for grabs on both sides.

MyOpine WE AGREE WOW
"What really ticked me off and made me wish I had an opportunity to make a footprint on the seat of his pants is when he came to the rescue of Arlen Specter in the Primaries.
That is the best chance we ever had to get rid of that RINO."

Toomey would have won too if Rick Santorum and Bush did not come to his rescue. I agree you should be upset. PA needed two not just one Democratic Senators


dollface
"I think you are referring to Rudolph(I can't remember his first name) who blew up abortion clinics and the Atlanta olympics. He fled and was living out in the woods. There were no people around to protect him. So, you're wrong there. Name me one gay club that has been bombed by a Christian fundamentalist."

Not wrong at all a whole region protected him and I may be wrong here but I think he did bomb a gay club. But that is irrelevant. When you have fundie churches like Kansas saying death to **** and christian Mullahs saying gays or abortion caused 9/11 you have a call for violience and some accept it.


"Phreddy Phelps and his band of losers are ostracized by all and are illegitimate. Thus, it is wrong for you to claim that they represent some mainstream Christian values. "

Oh I would never say mainstream I do and have said fundementalist. He would probably say he is more fundementalist than you LOL

"Your argument that the government subsidized religious schools is spurious at best and a damned lie at worst."

School buses are not public trans portation and are used for religious schools too. Also, home schooling is paid for by PA that is how the failed Santorum got in trouble PA paid and the kids lived in VA. Public transportation is open to all people, not just liberals.

"Should the government close a street just because there is a Catholic school on it? Should they re-route the publc bus routes and subway lines because there is a religous school nearby? You're full of it."

Then do not complain and whine when they do the same for Islam or Wiccs

Bart
Bush has done many things to displease me.
This open Border does not please anyone.
What really ticked me off and made me wish I had an opportunity to make a footprint on the seat of his pants is when he came to the rescue of Arlen Specter in the Primaries.
That is the best chance we ever had to get rid of that RINO.

Hal Donahue
I think you are referring to Rudolph(I can't remember his first name) who blew up abortion clinics and the Atlanta olympics. He fled and was living out in the woods. There were no people around to protect him. So, you're wrong there.

Name me one gay club that has been bombed by a Christian fundamentalist.

Phreddy Phelps and his band of losers are ostracized by all and are illegitimate. Thus, it is wrong for you to claim that they represent some mainstream Christian values.

Your argument that the government subsidized religious schools is spurious at best and a damned lie at worst. Public transportation is open to all people, not just liberals. Should the government close a street just because there is a Catholic school on it? Should they re-route the publc bus routes and subway lines because there is a religous school nearby? You're full of it.

Back to supporting Bush
Bush has never been considered conservative by conservatives. He is moderate at best; quite liberal actually. But back to your point
Given the choice of Bush - Gore in 2k & Bush - Kerry in 04 there was only one reasonable choice & he won!!!! He was the best choice both times.

CAN'T TRUST EDDRED!!!!!
E,

Fortunately for you and your issue of being able to trust the columnist's sources (or "columnists" as you seem to prefer) on the story - there are these handy things called "hyperlinks." They are this cutting edge tool here in the internets.

When reading a column and you see a section of it highlighted in a lighter blue color AND underlined... click on it.

Also - if you have any evidence of a factual misreporting by the author - everybody here would love to see your EVIDENCE on the matter.

Any lame liberal can come spam a comment saying "CAN'T TRUST THIS GUY" - but it is incumbent upon he who makes such a claim to provide examples of malfeasance.

Thanks

eddred
I think Reid gave us the best opportunity to rid this world of many terrorists.

Prior to Reid popping off with "The War is lost, bring the troops home", Iraqis were pretty fed up with foreign troops killing and victimizing Iraqis and had started coming forward to tell Americans where to find the foreign troops.

When Reid told the Iraqis we were going to abandon them to the mercy of the foreign troops, the Iraqi were afraid to help Americans after that.

Terrorists swarmed to Iraq from all over the world.
THey all wanted to be one of the Jihadi who defeated America.
Plane loads arrived in Syria every day and sneaked over the border into Iraq.

The troop surge has convinced Iraqis we do not intend to leave, the Iraqis are real angry about abuses by Terrorists and they are cooperating with Americans again.

Terrorists MUST have the cooperation and blessing of the native population to even survive.
Terrorists have a lot of men & dollars invested in the Iraq front.
I think those Terrorists who came on a one way ticket are in deep doodoo!

Left cares nothing of real Dems.
__Stephanie Miller's ignorant remark, speaks volumns concerning decisions the left makes. By her choice she makes a comment meant to be heard has a jab, "like most Democrats, want to be killed by a terrorist." When in fact there is so much truth in her comment. Real Democrats do not want to be killed by terrorist, but the driving force behind the Democrat party wants to kill off real Democrats. The left force, driving the Dems, has little use for Democrats still holding on to this nations principles, and values. While that older generation still holds value for them, they are also a liability. Getting wise, in their old age, also leads them to be more active in religious institutions. Judeo-Christian institutions, who's foundational teachings are of the same as those embraced by the documents supporting our Constitution. Of coarse the left is going to support Islamic Madrassa's, has their foundation has been at war with Judeo-Christian foundations for centuries. The individuals now controlling the Democrat party freely chooses between good, and bad, Love, and evil, to secure their possessions. Possessions of the world, has they are not of eternal life. Pelosi, herself, spoke words rallying the lefts troops, "We're losing this war!", has her choice of words voiced the dismay of evil. That choice to secure passions according to self love, realizing the American spirit sought to fight this evil. The left does not want to die by, what to their ideal, are terrorist, but they will blindly support terrorist of their ideal.

srebenica
Brian, what should Bill Clinton have done when this happened? Should he have intervened? I truly believe he should have because we knew ethnic cleansing was going on. Many Christians and Jews(I would say many, many more than the few who hid the abortion clinic bomber) throughout the world spoke out about the outrage and demanded something be done. Contrast that to what happens when Muslims murder the innocent.

Why is it that many feel perfectly safe when it comes to insulting Christians (and face it, it is popular to hate the Jews among some liberals)--many here today have hurled insults while trying to show that Muslims and Christians are equal in their hatred which is ludicrous. If Christians behaved as Muslims, I doubt you would be so "brave." Artists who create such "masterpieces" as the elephant dung Mary or the crucifix in urine would be in hiding, as would those involved in works such as "The Last Temptation of Christ" or "The DaVinci Code." Do Christians speak out about such...of course many do, but do they rampage, burn, riot and kill....no. People feel perfectly fine mocking Christians or depicting them negatively because it is pretty safe to do so.

Some Muslims seem to be so thin-skinned that they come unglued at the least provocation. And the worst part is, too many Muslims remain silent when their brethren are committing mayhem in the name of their religion. Do they remain silent because they agree with the barbarians or are they afraid of them?

Object of 1st Ammendment.
The object of that wording in our 1st Amendment WAS to prevent Government from forcing some religion upon us like The Church of England.
It relates to freedom OF religion, not FROM religion.

Islam is not simply a religion.
Islam incorporates a set if laws (Sharia) as well.
We have our own laws here in America and anyone who is not willing to obey those laws should stay out of America.

If religion supersedes America's laws then I would like to found a new religion of shark worshipers who feed followers of Sharia law to sharks.

Religious Right views backfiring?
I don't like, any more than anybody else, the idea of tax-financed public schools teaching radical Islamic hatred and violence. But if that's really happening, it might not all be the fault of "liberals". Sounds to me like it might be a case of *conservative* chickens coming home to roost. Specfically, the type of Religious Right conservatism that insists, "Separation of church and state is a myth," and that the answr to our educational problems is "prayer in public schools". They are glad to see Christianity entering the public schools; but if Christianity is let in, can Islam be kept out? Not unless "no establishment of religion" (which is specifically in the constitution) is a lie along with "separation of church and state" (not in the Constitution in so many words, but a reasonable interpretation of its meaning).

But, you say, Christianity is a "nice" religion that doesn't threaten society, while Islam is a nasty religion. I might even agree that, as the two faiths exist today, Christianity is more reasonable and tolerant than Islam. But that's not a distinction for *government* to make. Or do you Christians really want government not only comparing your faith to Islam, but picking through the various doctrines and sects of your faith to decide which ones are socially beneficial? Or might it be better for you to keep your religion going on your own, without government aid, while Muslims do the same?

The sep. of church and state
is that the Cong. will est. NO official state religion like Anglicanism in Great Britain. It is headed by Queen Elizabeth II and her predecessors back to Henry VIII, who started the Church of Eng.

The Founders did not want a pres. who was the head of a church.

Nothing in the First Amend. demands rel. be removed from pub. places or pub. schools, yadda. For 200 years, young people attended pub. events in Am. that opened and closed with invocations and closed with convocations that might hae been conducted by any of a variety of rel. leaders or simply lay people.

The "separation" most often mentioned as written in a letter by Thomas Jefferson--not any US legal document--is a misreading in pub.law, and I'll guess will eventually be adjusted just as two years ago the Sup. Ct. allowed for the 10 Commandments in some courtrooms. After all, the 10 Commandments are carved into the walls of the Sup. Ct. courtroom.

Touj - 3pm Pst
Touj wrote;

NO, it's not a voting threat, it's a power threat. If you don't think a fundamentalist government is a scary thing, look at Iran. For that matter, look at everything that has happened since Bush was elected


Exactly why seperation of church and state is needed. While I lean to Christian beliefs - I have also left the Church due to the sociopath nuts that have flocked there. To Those on the left, I get it in this instance.

Bush is a prime example with some twisted religious beliefs from various influences. I watched closely and listened to the leaders in Churches give their voice to his support and why - These same Churches don't even provide food for the hungry, a basic tenent. They inspired me to leave, leaders like this on either side are two sides of the same coin.

and JPH
The next time you think Conservatives had control of Congress, think McCain/Feingold and McCain with his "Hands across the aisle."
McCain is such a Liberal he was even considered for Kerry's running mate in 04!
http://www.bullwinkleblog.com/?p=3925

JPH
You say anything good for America is good for Liberals?

YOU ARE A LIAR!
I challenged you to NAME ONE THING that would be good for America and not BAD for Liberals!

You say ANYTHING?
If America was to secure lasting peace in the ME right now it would be good for America BUT a total disaster for Liberals.

Stop trying to lie out of my challenge.
Stop tap dancing to evade my challenge.

AND Please stop whimpering.
You came on this Conservative site with dire insults for Conservatives and you have not quit crying about the response since.

MyOpine
I did not say you accused me of beating my wife. Go back and read then post.

Anything good for America is good for liberals!!

Brian
If what you state was in general practice we would have ran out of all other religions decades ago and there would be no problem with Radical Islam today.

JPH
I did not accuse you of beating your wife.

I accused you of being anti-American.

I challenged you to cite an example of something that is good for America that is NOT bad news for YOU Liberals.

If what I say is wrong then it should be easy for you to do without trying to evade my challenge.

ANYTHING good for America is good for Conservatives!

You Liberals represent Government by Bunko Scam!
Everything you do has to be a fraud to deceive someone!

typo
Should have read testament, not teatament.

Whine, whine, whine
Poor Kevin. Such the liberal victim!

Wooo hooo! Those nasty liberals. Were in control of Congress all those 40-50 years during and after WWII and destroyed this country so many times. Now they are at again! I personally have been killed 5 times.

Poor conservatives, powerless to stop the Mighty liberal MSM! Stephanie Miller! The scary comedienne!

Hey! Kevin! News flash! NYC is LIBERAL! Maybe you should move to Crawford Texas!

How pathetic, really. 'Bout the only thing more pathetic was all the Al Gore sniveling going on in the Global Warming discussions.

Grow a backbone people. Quit your whining. Quit being victims. Reminds of the scene in Blazing Saddles when Mel Brooks goes, "somebody, wire the Governor! Oh, that's right, I am the governor."





Skinnywhiteboy
Christians are not under the old law. But under the New Teatament, which was set up by Christ. Which is why we are called "Christians".

MyOpine
That respones is juvenile. I don't always agree with Murtha but that doesn't make him anti-American. I think Bush has done irreparable harm to the country, however, I don't believe he is unpatriotic or even anti-American. I think he is seriously wrong and and and I can tell you why.

Apparently, you have no agruments to rebut what I said.

I do not respond to "do you still beat your wife" kind of challenges.

skinnywhiteboy
My point is that the Bible is not presently being used as a guide to kill people and the Qu'oran IS!

Therefore your post about the Bible is irrelevant!

Jesus was a revolutionary figure
He came to preach forgiveness and love of neighbor and God. I don't think he preached hatred like Muhammmed did.

JPH
What people of low intellect do is call all Conservatives coeards, just like you did.

As an enemy Collaborator, I asked you to cite something that would be good for America that would not be bad for you Liberals.

The CHALLENGE STANDS!

For an example I give you;
Anti-American Abscam Jack Murtha tried to "Nifong" the Haditha Marines to create an international scandal and turn World Opinion against America.

The Marines have been found innocent of Murtha's charges and this is good for America but bad for you anti-American Liberals.
See what I mean?

Now you cite something that would be good for America and not bad for you Hate-America Liberals!

Mrs Paddy
The last election was more about Iraq than government spending. Regrettably most people even conservatives don't care about government spending. It only becomes an issue to conservatives when when spending is on things you don't like. During the Reagan administration spending did not go down but you all approved because it was on the military.

The larges swing in voter preferences in 2006 was among independents for whom the Iraq war the the big issue. (See the Pew polls)

skinnydumboy
Cite a recent example of ANY Christian executing someone who refused to convert to their religion?

AND loosen your turban.
You have it wound too tight!

skinnywhite boy
Flip open to the New Testament.

MYOpine & Mrs Paddy
Your definition of conservative is so narrow that it only includes the few people who post here. Self defined conservative far outnumber self defined liberals in most of the institutions I listed and in most areas of American life although that is beginning to change. The conservative Reagan and the two self identified conservative Bushes have nominated the majority of court judges. The number of self defined conservatives has also outnumbered the liberals in the congress as well.

I know that many of you do not want to claim Bush now that his policies failed, but I suspect that you enthusiastically supported him as a conservative in 2000 and 2004.

As for you Myopine, you need to stop calling people who disagree with you "jihadist" "unAmerican", "tratorous" or whatever. That is what someone does when they do not have an intelligent answer.

JPH
Conservatives have dominated our education system and the courts? What a whopper!

And, we did "take responsibility" for the huge growth in government spending. That's why we threw the bums out in the last election.

I know, most of you think it was because of the war, that fits your template, but it was the run-away spending that shifted the "power". It's still pretty evenly split down the middle in Congress, so go figure.

JPH
Your Jihad against America seems to have blinded you to the FACT that Conservatives have not had control of Congress for over 50 years.
You SHOULD be aware that voter registration has nothing to do with being Liberal or Conservative.
Liberals have controled Congress since FDR.
Conservatives are so torqued at RINOs we voted them out of office so we could have real Liberals instead of pretend Conservatives who caused us to get the blame for stupid things the Liberals do.

Tell me ONE thing good that could happen to America that would not be bad news for you anti-American Liberals?

Touj
How many Christians hid the clinic bomber? Were they punished by the law? You are painting all Christians with a pretty wide brush to say that a local group did thus ergo all Christians supported this action.

But, it is fashionable to blame Christians for the sins of a few, when most of us recognize that being a Christian is a personal thing and those who preach and teach have the ability to tar all of us when they go off on a wild tangent.

Mrs. Paddy
I agree that both sides do more name calling than is necessary. But I find it ironic that conservatives blame liberals for everything when they have dominated all of the institutions that I identified. That is indeed a failure to take responsibility.

Dottie
Read McCullough's column particularly the first paragraph. It is routine for people who post on TH to blame liberals for evertything.

JPH
It is amusing to me that you, and others on TH, take to pointing fingers at the other side. As Dottie said, "There is certainly enough blame to go around."

It's kind of like the Bill Cosby joke about the X & Y chromosomes determining if a pregnancy would yield a boy or girl. "You had it last, it's your fault" says the man. Even though his X or Y contribution is the determining factor on what sex the child becomes.

I see lots of similarities here. Until one party declares absolute control and installs their dictator in office, what we get is a mutual effort...for good or ill.


New York school
What do any of you know about the New York school teaching about the Islamic world? Note, teaching about it is different than "teaching it." I do not have a great deal of information, but from what I have heard, the school, like other magnate programs,is focusing on a specific subject matter which in this case is Islamic societies. Perhaps, if we had learned more about that part of the world in the past, we would not be in the mess in Iraq that we are in today. One of the problems that our intelligence service has had is not having a pool off people who can speak Arabic or who know much about the Middle Eastern culture. During the cold war we had programs around the country that taught Russian and about Soviet society. This was supported by the U.S. military in a big way. How is this any diffirent than the New York school?

One more thing
Why is it that Christians can openly criticize and call for the arrest and punishment of the sociopaths among them (abortion clinic bombers for example). Most "Christians" who kill do not do it in the name of Christ (I haven't heard of any yelling out "Long Live Christ" at least....unlike the Allah Akbar yellers). But, regardless, other Christians feel they need to be fittingly punished.

Why is it that we hear very little outcry from Muslims when their homicidal maniacs are committing mayhem?

JPH, take a deep breath
You are overwrought. I think you could cite some examples rather than make broad, sweeping statements. There is certainly enough blame to go around, that is for sure, but you are being a bit hysterical in your assertions.

Conservative wimps & whiners
I cannot believe what a bunch of wimps and whiners conservatives poster here are. Conservatives have dominated the congress, the judiciary, the media and many of the legislatures over the last ten years and yet you blame everything you find wrong with the world on liberals. This is victimhood at its worst.

The Iraq war is a failure, blame liberals. The educational system is not to you liking, blame liberals. The federal government runs a deficit, blame liberals. The courts occasionally rule against you, blame liberals. When will you ever grow up take responsibility for what you have wrought.

slummer
You obviously know nothing of the Daniel Pearl story.

I had to laugh
at the village idiots comment "you may not force your beliefs on anyone." Yet that is what liberals do all of the time with more and more govt. and taxes.

So since we no longer have separation of church and state and are in the business of appeasing, does this now mean tax dollars can fund a Christian school?

hal donahue
When they come and tell you to become a muslim or we will 'cut your head off', what will you do?

They have stated very plain that they intend to rule the world. What part of that are you having trouble understanding??'

Submit...

...or FIGHT. There is no middle road on this issue.

We are awash with middle of the roaders, fence sitters, and know nothings.

Are there still two girl scouts left in the country or is it impossible to start a fire.??.


bonnie
Home schooling is not taxpayer funded.

McCullough says:
"And when the religion is as big of a fraud as Islam is, tight control must be maintained over every aspect of life."

This is what this wicked religion is all about - it's a total fraud perpetrated by a control freak (the basic mentality of a tribal leader). The only way it could rise to the level of indoctrination is through fear of death. From my experience of working with employers who used fear to run their operation, it doesn't take much to get most of the little lambs to fall into place. The confrontation with Islam is either going to end in a whimper, because there are so many lambs or this lion of a country will yield its awesome power and put down this beast from hell.

schooling
is this any different than home schooling? don't they teach seperation and unamericanism?

If you say a lie over and over...
It must be true!

Pero Grande writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 7:28 AM
McCullough says:
"Though they have a hard time recognizing it or even admitting it, liberals in America, are sowing the seeds for the future annihilation of America as we know it."

And yet it's the Bush family with such close ties to Saudi Arabia and the bin Laden family that on 9/11 - with air traffic shut down, allowed the relatives of America's greatest enemy to fly home safely - with no debriefing by the FBI or CIA.

Hard to believe that this myth has been investigated by so many and found to be untrue, but this idiot still believes it.
Pero, get off of Daily KOS, and do some research before you spew

Savage99
Thanks for the support. I knew an Iranian back in the 1980s who didn't dare go back to Iran because he knew he would be arrested the instant he got off the plane.

And why was this so? Because other Iranians here in the U.S. knew his views and had tattled on him. In other words, there were -- and still are -- plenty of supporters of reactionary Islam here in the U.S.

This is one of many reasons why I've always taken the Islamist threat seriously.

Hal Donahue, part 2
“They only use the same rules Christian groups use for funding which is only right.”

I never said anything about funding. Go back and re-read what I said.

“You do not think that Christianity or Western Culture can defend itself?”

Not very well, or the problem wouldn’t have gotten so bad. The media, the schools, Hollywood, etc., are all in favor of destroying Western Culture and Christianity, and it's very difficult to fight against them as well as our immigrant enemies. Thankfully, we’ve got the Internet and can get around their influence to some extent.

“The US is one huge multicultural stew .”

Not exactly. People’s beliefs here are tempered by the ideas of the Enlightenment, that everyone has a right to choose their own religion, to speak freely, etc. To that extent, everyone has the SAME basic culture. A true multicultural society, one in which they had no common culture of tolerance, would end up in a civil war very quickly, as various groups tried to kill the infidels, the heathens, or whatever.

Hal Donahue, part 1
“You may live as you want if you do no damage to others.”

How naive can you get? What counts as damage will itself vary from culture to culture. The very idea behind honor killings is that a woman has damaged her family’s honor.

“You may not force your ‘beliefs’ on anyone.”

That’s fine in theory, but what we are seeing is liberals and leftists allowing Muslims all kinds of latitude to do this.

“That is your answer not a moderates.”

You’re right. I’m guessing. What liberals and leftists think is so confused I’m just guessing on all this.

“ You should not be allowed to shut off outside influence.”

Like foreign sports, for example? When the NY Times makes soccer its number one sport, instead of mostly ignoring it, I’ll pay attention.

“...the creationism nonsense and the world is 6,000 years old. “

I myself accept evolution and that the world is 15 billion years old or whatever. But why not think of creationism as an “outside influence?”

“Tolerance for each other. Not agreement but tolerance.”

That’s fine in theory. Now let’s see it put into practice, ok? You demand tolerance of me but not of Muslims.

letsAllRelax
An enjoyable and informative discussion. Come back soon. By the way, you are not the only one with posting difficulties. At best its very slow.

Nice try, Hal
Come on, Hal, is that all the better you can do at tip-toeing around my question? Could it be that the actual percentage of God-fearing Christians, nationwide, who condone violence would be an infinitesimal percentage of 1%, which completely implodes the entire premise of your argument? Virtually every Christian would agree that whoever commits that kind of violence is mentally ill, and is falsely hiding behind Christianity. You also nicely side-stepped the other part of my question, yourself hiding behind the absurdity of “who does the poll”. It wouldn’t matter who took the poll or how it was worded, the results would always be extremely revealing about the core beliefs of Islam. Nice try, though.

Clear on govt support
Thanks Dottie. the govt support of parochial schools was subsidized meals, transportation and so forth. Just an illustration of how difficult it is to draw a line between church/state. My attitude is junk the Public school system and give parents of school children vouchers. Within a couple years, choice and competition would creat an order of magnitude of improvement. For one thing, good teachers would be in such demand that the good ones could expect to double their salaries.

Giving up...
Sorry, giving up. The server here is going nuts, and so am I.

Take care y'all.

JFP
Your point about the Mullahs taking out the leftist useful idiots who supported action against the Shah in Iran, as soon as they had power is a good one and often overlooked. We have a large Iranian community where i live, consisting mostly of students sent to a local university by the Shah. They were very active in working for his downfall. Imagine their dismay when not only was the money cut off, but those who went back to Iran were subject to re-education to wipe out the western ideas like using toilet paper instead of a rock. Since the first thing the Mullahs did was kidnap the members of the Iranian embassy, Iranians were not popular around here. They started calling themselves Persians. I had a lot of fun twitting them when i ran across one tending bar or waiting tables. They weren't happy, but they knew enough about both Iran and the US they didn't want to go back.

Uphold the LAW
The pictures of hundreds of poor Muslim at their desks droning away for up to 16 hours a day is both brainwashing and torture. It is a crime, and should be treated as such.
The schools in NY: the city council has to uphold THE LAW, be the schools, bhudist, Islamic, Christian, Jewish or Jedi Knight.

...
The pictures of hundreds of poor Muslim at their desks droning away for up to 16 hours a day is both brainwashing and torture. It is a crime, and should be treated as such.
The schools in NY: the city council has to uphold THE LAW, be the schools, Buddhist, Islamic, Christian, Jewish or Jedi Knight.

Savage99...
The pictures of hundreds of poor Muslim at their desks droning away for up to 16 hours a day is both brainwashing and torture. It is a crime, and should be treated as such.
The schools in NY: the city council has to uphold THE LAW, be the schools, bhudist, Islamic, Christian, Jewish or Jedi Knight.

Savage99
"I'm still hazy about public funding for a Catholic school. I thought they were all privately funded."

Government provides transportation, favorable rental agreements, and a slew of other things. My view is if funding has any connection at all with religion it should not be allowed - period.

Dave Stone
"New York intellectuals have a hard time learning their lessons. Look what happend to Daniel Pearl when he reached out to his Islamic bretheren."

Ah yes those same New Yorkers who pressed on thru 9/11. Those same New Yorkers who carried on when terrorists were attacking. New Yorkers are tough and will survive and win while all you frightened bunker types cower in fear. That is what really surprises me your fear. I thought conservatives were supposed top be tough guys and gals but you have made it perfectly clear you are anything but....

LetsAllRelax
The reason the West labels the current crop of Jihadis terrorists is because they are taking action against the wrong folks. The Yemenis (and other jihadis) taking risky action could succeed in all their stated objectives (universal caliphate) and still be under exactly the same poor govt. Back to an old post, the US is danged if we do and danged if we don't. It is hardly to our credit that we co-exist with many dictators, but we can't do it all for everybody. If these misguided suicidal brainwashed adolescents would direct their actions against those who are oppressing them locally they might achieve something useful to themselves. As it is, your word dooooomed is appropriate. If their efforts ever approach success, they will unite the West agaist them. The result will not be pretty.
I find your statements about schools to be inconsistant. You apparently believe govt support of a Catholic school is public support for brutality and intolerance, but see no such difficulty with public support in NYC. At least you are consistant, in saying "in theory". It does not compute with me that you see intolerance in a Catholic school, and (while mentioning hate-driven mullahs) see no such danger in NYC. Those nuns must have been from Hades. :o). You are doubtless correct that govt should require the teachings of any school to conform to minimums of truth and a lack of sedition. This is a whole new topic. I'm still hazy about public funding for a Catholic school. I thought they were all privately funded.

Minnesotan
"Hal Donahue, what percentage of Christians in the U. S. do you believe would openly sanction the violence against abortion clinics and gay clubs?"

Not a clue but an entire region evidently knew about that bomber and kept quiet or supported him. I live in a very conservative area and I suspect quite a few folks. And these are educted types not simple tribesman

"Also, what percentage of Muslims do you think openly sanction violence against non-Muslims for resisting conversion to Islam? "

That is a loaded question who does the poll etc. I think it is still the law in Saudi

...but, but...Christians do it too
That seems to be the sum of the Liberals' arguments in here. It is rather odd really.

We have one person claiming he was brutalized and exposed to intolerance in his government-supported Catholic school. It could be true, I do not know for sure. However, I know corporal punishment has not been allowed in Catholic schools for many years now. I started teaching in one in 1983, and it had not been practiced for a long time before that. As for the intolerance, I do not know who his teachers were, but we never taught that Catholicism was the ONLY way, nor did we teach that Catholics were the only ones heaven=bound. As for government support--the lunch program was subsidized, the kids had bus service, and we had loans of secular textbooks. That was the extent of government subsidies.

Others want to point at the tiny number of "Christians" who engage in unlawful and abhorrent behavior as if it is supported by the vast majority of American Christians. As a Christian, I am willing to call those people sociopaths with no idea of what Jesus taught--and most Christians feel the same way. However, it seems that a huge number of Muslims have a problem considering the jihadists as abominations.

As far as I am concerned, the ACLU should get involved in this situation. I know, I know....they won't, but if they were doing what they claim is their duty, they would.

JFP
I am a great believer of multi-kulti.
But: If a person moves from their country to another to work, to live, to possibly have children then it is important to understand the Why of moving. What am I moving FROM and what am I moving TO WHY do I want to leave my homeland? Am I just moving for the money? Am I moving for a better life; for me, for my children?
What I have to clearly understand is that, if I am moving to another country for good, then there is a reason for this. So I cannot move and take the problems of my country (religion?) with me. I have to accept the RULES of my new country. If I can't, then I should leave. As simple as that.

And integration? For all? I have an American friend (nothing anti-American about this, it's just an example) living for more than 20 years in Switzerland and he still speaks less than 50 words of German. But he can get away with it as the Swiss (80% anyway) speak English. I know third generation Turks in Germany who can't communicate with their grandparents because they (the kids) don't speak Turkish.

The solution. Maybe just take the '-' out of American English. I'm not Armenian-American, I'm not African-American, I'm not Arab-American, I'm not Irish-American... I'M AMERICAN. End of story!

JFP
"I specifically asked about Christians who thought it was ok to kill apostates. You haven't provided a single example of that."

Why limit it to that? We are talking about killing heretics and non believers.

JFP
"1. There is the blatant hypocrisy of talking as though sexism and homophobia are morally wrong for everyone AND espousing moral relativism and multiculturalism."

You may live as you want if you do no damage to others. You may not force your "beliefs" on anyone.

"2. "In a multicultural country of the sort that liberal leftists seem to want, there would be various enclaves in which different groups would live by their own traditions and customs."

That is your answer not a moderates. You should not be allowed to shut off outside influence like you try to do in education i.e. the creationism nonsense and the world is 6,000 years old. Believe in that or Santa or whatever but do not expect that to be taught as "truth".

"The problem would come when people left their enclaves to mingle with others. What rules are going to apply?"

Tolerance for each other. Not agreement but tolerance.

"And it is here where we see Muslims trying to apply their rules everywhere and why some of us say our culture is being Islamified."

They only use the same rules Christian groups use for funding which is only right. Perhaps there should be zero funding of any religious group no transportation, no building or textbook support. That would work. Should we take a no tolerance a[pproach to funding anything religious?

"... all of these suggest that there is eventually going to be just one enclave: the Muslim one..."

Suggests how? You do not think that Christianity or Western Culture can defend itself?

"Perhaps you yourself are against multiculturalism, but I have yet to get any kind of answer from liberal leftists about these matters. "

The US is one huge multicultural stew and that is what made us great. If you are afraid to compete in the world of ideas and action perhaps you should bow down now?

Sanctioning Violence
Hal Donahue, what percentage of Christians in the U. S. do you believe would openly sanction the violence against abortion clinics and gay clubs? Also, what percentage of Muslims do you think openly sanction violence against non-Muslims for resisting conversion to Islam?

Hal Donahue
I specifically asked about Christians who thought it was ok to kill apostates. You haven't provided a single example of that.

JFP
Oh what about that extreme right wing Kansas church group who pickets GI funerals saying they deserved it and death to gays?

JFP
"I don't know of any Christians in America who think it's ok to kill apostates, but there are plenty of Muslims who think this. One could also add in honor killings and rapes of women who are dressed "inappropriately.""

And what about the Christians who use explosives to blow up clinics and gay clubs and kill health care providers? How many years did the local population hide that one Christian Fanatic? If they thought they could get away with it they would. Listen closely to the Christian Mullahs their extreme message is not that different....


Redheart
Idiots, yes. Nothing useful about them.

LetsAllRelax
There are two concerns I have with liberal leftist attitudes on Muslims.

1. There is the blatant hypocrisy of talking as though sexism and homophobia are morally wrong for everyone AND espousing moral relativism and multiculturalism.

2. Liberal leftists think they are constructing some wonderful multicultural paradise while the rest of us think our culture is being Islamified. In a multicultural country of the sort that liberal leftists seem to want, there would be various enclaves in which different groups would live by their own traditions and customs.

The problem would come when people left their enclaves to mingle with others. What rules are going to apply? And it is here where we see Muslims trying to apply their rules everywhere and why some of us say our culture is being Islamified. The fatwa against Salman Rushdie, the murder of Theo van Gogh, the threats against anyone who defames Islam, the rumors of rapes by Muslim men of women who are "inappropriately" dressed, all of these suggest that there is eventually going to be just one enclave: the Muslim one. One may wish to have a secular enclave where one can make fun of Muslims in the way that secularists today make fun of Christians, but that isn't going to be allowed.

Perhaps you yourself are against multiculturalism, but I have yet to get any kind of answer from liberal leftists about these matters.

Reverse logic
McCollough writes:

"Islamic scholars like Spencer, and Dr. Ergun Canor, have long pointed out that the Islamic experience is, not akin to, nor compatible with the American mainstream."

It's interesting how the same liberals who insist that democracy is not possible in Iraq because of this very point have no problem at all with using tax dollars to spread this alleged un-democratic theology from generation generation in this country.

This is the truth

When a person converts to Christianity or Judaism
there is no fear that they will become homicide bombers and kill innocent people. That cannot be said for Islam. Now the Germans are going to monitor converts.

The liberals are "Useful idiots".

The School in NY...
should be controlled and co-ordinated as any other school.

"Do you think Jews should be charged with truancy if they don't show up for school on Yom Kipper" - No

"Do you think public funds should be used to finance the new school" - better than the Saudis financing it :-). If the school comes under the umbrella of the NY school system, Yes.

"Do you think Public funds should have been used to support your Catholic schooling". In theory, Yes. But in practice, seeing the brutality and intolerance, No. It should have been ordered to conform to the standards set by the government for ALL schools, or had it's permit taken away.

The British Education Minister, a few months ago, when asked if the new rules to 'control' the Islamic schools in the UK wasn't racist repilied that it would be racist NOT to give these children the same protection afforded to other schoolchildren. Nice answer :-)

Savage99...
"...these peaceful farmers overcome their fear and take risky action..."

these farmers, writers, musicians, students,ordinary workers are then branded as terrorists and Western governments throw money at the relevant Security Forces to slaughter them.

The president of Yemen has been there for 28 years being supported by Western governments to the tune of $Billions while he robs and murders.
I have been told by SAS and Special Forces advisors that their work with his security organisations would CAUSE the country to go belly-up one day, but the president is regarded as one of the Good Guys by the West because he is on the correct side on the WarOnTerror (for a hefty fee, that is). And let's not forget our new Bosom-Buddie: Ghadifi of Libya. Nice friend to have. You think his farmers will rise up?

If the Minutemen had been branded as terrorists and the British been supported by most of the Western powers the US would have had no revolution.

When "tolerance" is a one-way
street it is not "tolerance," it is either "pacifism" or "appeasement." The notion of tolerance logically mandates that its effectiveness be based upon a two-way street. When Muslims tolerate our culture and respect our way of life, I will tolerate their culture in a peaceful coexistence framework. Unfortunately, it is dogmatically impossible for a Muslim to accept the peaceful coexistence model.

Lebanon is a modern stark example of the reality of Muslim intolerance. In less than twenty years its vibrant Christian majority has fled or resolved itself to second class citizen status. Beirut, once the Cancun of the Mediterranean, is now a cesspool. Thriving businesses extinguished. Secular universities destroyed.

Can anyone can provide one example of where a Muslim majority is "tolerant." You have 1400 years of history to find it and please spare me the revisionist nonsense about the "Golden Age."

This is for your own good
Neither Hitler nor Khomeini took this tack IMHO. Their theme was "You are a victim and you are entitled to "fill in the blanks". Give me power and i will get your fair entitlements for you. " When one keeps in mind there is no such thing as a free lunch, these rabble rousers remain merely nuisances. When a majority believes they can vote themselves effortlessly rich and powerful, they are on a downhill slide.

Back to column topic. LetsAllRelax, what do you recommend vis-a-vis the new school in NYC? Do you support those that prohibit wearing religious symbols in school? Do you think Jews should be charged with truancy if they don't show up for school on Yom Kipper? Do you think public funds should be used to finance the new school? Do you think Public funds should have been used to support your Catholic schooling?

LetsAllRelax
Fear seems a good answer. The existance of fear means some factor is operating besides the good peaceful farmers you meet in your travels. And this factor would have the power, right? Sounds like Nazi Germany or Tojo's Japan to me. Dealing with these cost a lot of nice non-political people their lives. It is entirely likely that unless these peaceful farmers overcome their fear and take risky action, say like the minutemen did at Concord Bridge, and replace the govt they fear with a govt that represents their peaceful wishes, they could well be collateral damage as the small percent of violent jihadis is dealt with. Its not fair, but most of the folks who died on 9/11 never had a thought about islam one way or the other. Their deaths were not fair either.
As for the corrupt and bigotted, as you note, they are everywhere. Some countries and govts do a better job of keeping them under control and preventing their agenda from becoming govt policy. Its always a battle.

JFP
I have no patience whatsoever with the Mad Mullahs. I've heard their hate-filled rantings on many a Friday mid-day prayers. But then, there are millions of Muslims who have no time for them either.

And how did they get power? How did Khumayni? How did McCarthy? How did Hitler. Usually it's, "This is for your own good". Sounds familiar? Then once you've got people behind you others are afraid to stand up against the 'movement'.

skinnywhiteboy
Whatever is true of the Bible and the Qur'an, the fact is that Christianity as it is practiced in America is far more moral than Islam as it is practiced in the Muslim world.

I don't know of any Christians in America who think it's ok to kill apostates, but there are plenty of Muslims who think this. One could also add in honor killings and rapes of women who are dressed "inappropriately."

What is strange is the way that liberals and leftists think there is nothing wrong with allowing people with these beliefs to come to the West and live their lives freely, even though they object to their practices. They want people like ME to take sensitivity training, but they think Muslims don't need to.

LetsAllRelax
Very interesting posts, particularly about the Saudis being hated.

However, let me note, what I've noted many times here at TownHall, that during the 1970s leftists joined with Muslims in Iran to bring down the Shah. Once they succeeded, the Muslims elbowed aside the leftists and butchered a bunch of them.

I do not trust them. Why leftists in the West fawn over people who will ultimately butcher them is beyond me. It's like Jews allying themselves with the Nazis.


Savage99
"Perhaps these wahabi schools are not liked by large numbers of the populations where they are established. Would you say this is true?"...

Yes, I think that's a fair statement.

And why aren't they out on the streets protesting against these dictators, while they are out protesting a few silly cartoons? In their home countries it's Fear, as simple as that.

And why aren't they out protesting in the West? That's a question I have asked again and again. Why did hundreds of Germans last week stand by as 50 Nazis beat 8 Indians at a local festival? The same answer: Fear. Because the extremists are threatening their own people. They don't want to stand up and, along with their families, become targets.

letsallrelax
SOOOOOOO-- you are a mind reader--EH

Savage99
"Perhaps these wahabi schools are not liked by large numbers of the populations where they are established. Would you say this is true?"...

Yes, I think that's a fair statement.

And why aren't they out on the streets protesting against these dictators, while they are out protesting a few silly cartoons? In their home countries it's Fear, as simple as that.

And why aren't they out protesting in the West? That's a question I have asked again and again. Why did hundreds of Germans last week stand by as 50 Nazis beat 8 Indians at a local festival? The same answer: Fear. Because the extremists are threatening their own people. They don't want to stand up and, along with their families, become targets.

pero "grande"
These people are not forced extremists, they are taught to kill those who do not switch and become muslims.
And their teaching AND training begin at age 6.
You have to learn the whole story.

TTSSYF
"In short, you're a liberal, substantiating one of Lawrence Auster's laws of liberalism that (to paraphrase) the worse one culture is, the more Western culture must be made to look in order to make the two cultures appear equal."

What utter nonsense LMAO! You do not think we have our own "fools, biggots and mad Christians in the West"? You miss the mote in your own eye? LAR forgot to add corrupt to the assets of the west too. I mean look at this corrupt regime in the US and I will not even go into the festering swamp of sexual confusion among the rights own Christian mullahs. I like that, Robertson, Falwell, Haggert, Dobson, Kennedy are or were best described as Christian Mullahs.

Khalil Gibran
The lyric prose of this great Lebanese writer has been desecrated by naming this jihadist school in his honor. Those who misuse his name are in sympathy with the barbarians who destroyed Lebanon as a center of business, scholarshio, and a peaceful culture.

Saudi Arabia, you say,
Now there is a surprise. My experience is that the man in the street recognizes that Americans are generous and bring money. It does not surprise me that most of the folks you dealt with were positive. Most of the antagonism is at the upper levels, fueled mostly by envy and fear. You have probably run into the odd person who dislikes Americans because they see arrogance and disdain coming from Americans, whether it is there or not. But why is Saudi Arabia disliked? Don't they spend huge amounts on Madrasas? Perhaps these wahabi schools are not liked by large numbers of the populations where they are established. Would you say this is true?

Let's some of us relax --
"I have also met the fools, the corrupt, the biggots and the mad Mullahs. Just as I met fools, biggots and mad Christians in the West."

In short, you're a liberal, substantiating one of Lawrence Auster's laws of liberalism that (to paraphrase) the worse one culture is, the more Western culture must be made to look in order to make the two cultures appear equal.

"The biggest complaint I hear again and again: "Why do the West support these corrupt, immoral, kings and presidents? Why do they support dictators who do nothing but steal and oppress their own people".

"In short, they are confused hearing our leaders talk of the importance of democracy while supporting Arab dictators."

I'm confused about them, too. Have they heard about Iraq and the American blood shed to topple Sodamn Insane and give the Arab world a shot at democracy and the fact that two sects of the "Religion of Peace" are at each other's throats like the Crips and the Bloods? I'm also confused about the Muslim world's silence about how much they, as you claim, despise Saudi Arabia while they can cause world-wide riots over a bunch of silly cartoons published in a NON-MUSLIM country, no less.

They need to be left alone to continue marrying their first cousins and stewing in ignorance and misery for a few more centuries until they figure it out on their own.


LetsAllRelax
An impressive list. I never even heard of Burkins Faso, or Benin. I would guess you are some sort of govt paid consultant, since the one common factor of the countries you mention is that they are relatively politically neutral on the world stage. I have not traveled nearly so much, but enough to recognize "Why does the West support these immoral....". I've heard it many times, in Brazil, the Philipines. The folks in most of these countries have the sophistication of the militarily weak. But they think a powerful country like the USofA can do what it likes. So we're danged if we do and danged if we don't -- interfere with established govts, that is. And i know that world over Jane and Joe Sixpack just want to make a living and see their kids grow up happy and healthy. But that's all the folks in Dresden and Hiroshima wanted. Except they were part of the support for a regime with other ambitions. Collaterall damage is a witch.

and...
By the way, the most despised country is not America, it's Saudi Arabia. I have had Arab people spit after mentioning that country. My Yemini driver, who worked in Saudi for 7 years, called them thieves and perverts.

With America it is more confusion over what they (the Administration) say and what they do

And...
By the way, the most despised country is not America, it's Saudi Arabia. I have had Arab people spit after mentioning that country. My Yemini driver, who worked in Saudi for 7 years, called them thieves and perverts.

With America it is more confusion over what they (the Administration) say and what they do

Hi Savage99
I don't mind defending my viewpoint, but I will not have some **** call me a liar because I don't fit with his prejudices.

I have lived in, (for longer periods, not just visited), Niger, Maldives (with the locals, not with the tourists), Yemen and Morocco. I have visited: Lebanon, Burkins Faso, Benin, UAE.

It's difficult to get in close contact with the peoiple in all of the countries (besides Lebanon) as Muslims tend to be very private, family orientated. I have made friends with some warm, gentle, caring people who worry about the future of their children, their religion and their country. I have met women of amazing moral and personal strengths. I have met the rich in the cities and the farmers in the villages.

I have also met the fools, the corrupt, the biggots and the mad Mullahs. Just as I met fools, biggots and mad Christians in the West.

Work area: Market orientated agricultural development.

The biggest complaint I hear again and again: "Why do the West support these corrupt, immoral, kings and presidents? Why do they support dictators who do nothing but steal and oppress their own people".

In short, they are confused hearing our leaders talk of the importance of democracy while supporting Arab dictators.

PS: if my posts come up twice it's because the server in this North African country is screwing up (again).

By the way, LetsAllRelax
Was that state-supported Catholic school in the US of A? Of course there is no law requiring you to defend yourself. Facts in your favor do make your posts more interesting and believable.

Another case of whose PC ox got gored
Christian fundamentalism is a voting threat to the left, so Christianity is bad. Native American religion and islam are not seen as a threat so they can be supported. Religion, per se, has nothing to do with it. What gets me is how so many people don't see any inconsistency in these actions. They hew faithfully to the PC line. Has rationality become illegal or something? Can some left-winger jump in here and explain what is happening?

LetsAllRelax
Lets hear more about your experience living in muslim countries? Which one was it? How were you employed? First person facts are always interesting.

You didn't live in a Muslim country
as a KNOWN Christian because that would have gotten you deported at best and stoned to death at worst.

LIAR!

Tower Guy...
You write: "Kevin has it right, even the peaceful ones are just waiting for the opportunity to impose Sharia law"

As a Christian who has lived in Muslim countries for over 15 years, all I can say is "You have NO idea what you are talking about, you're full of poops".

Doomed,
We're all Doomed, Doomed, Dooooommmmed!!!

The Christian right are soooo happy to attack ANY measure of tolerance from the Pinko, Commi, Liberal Left.

But I recall a TV show where a nine-year-old (brain-washed) American (white, middle-class) girl was telling the reporter that all those who did not turn to Jesus wold die and burn forever in the fires of hell.

You want vicious, intolerant, brutal indoctrination. Then you should have gone to the state subsidised Catholic school I went to.

Since when was it Christion behavior to beat 7-year-olds with canes and straps because they got a line from their Cathecism wrong.

You are one sick dood.

Doomed,
We're all Doomed, Doomed, Dooooommmmed!!!

The Christian right are soooo happy to attack ANY measure of tolerance from the Pinko, Commi, Liberal Left.

But I recall a TV show where a nine-year-old (brain-washed) girl was telling the reporter that all those who did not turn to Jesus wold die and burn forever in the fires of hell.

You want vicious, intolerant, brutal indoctrination. Then you should have gone to the state subsidised Catholic school I went to.

Since when was it Christion behavior to beat 7-year-olds with canes and straps because they got a line from their Cathecism wrong.

You are one sick dood.

The difference between Liberals and
Lefties is this:

The Liberals are the proverbial "useful idiots," who don't realize that their actions are bringing about the demise of America.

The Lefties,on the other hand, DO know that their actions are bringing about the end of the United States. As far as they are concerned, the sooner the better. They believe that as long as our form of government exists as-is, they will never be able to creat the one-world Marxist State that they so crave.

Calm down, Mr. McCullough
--
Yes, this matter needs to be reported - and in terms so clear and so condemnatory that the reader can see the sense of what drives your anger.

Yes, the city government of New York the Damned is violating both the letter and the spirit of the First Amendment in this action.

(Gawd, a "social conservative" actually coming 'round right on the necessity to keep religion - *ALL* religion - out of the public school systems....)

Yes, Islam is intrinsically as rotten at its intellectual roots as were the theologies of Montezuma and Marx (both of which explicitly demand human sacrifice).

But you've got to approach this like a Sicilian.

Coldly, calmly, implacably. Effectively.

The "Liberals" are perfectly prepared to dismiss you as yet another Christian whackjob running amok.

So put down the machete, pick up the stiletto, and pat 'em on the back until you find the right spot to put it between their ribs.

What you want to see in their eyes isn't terror, but surprise and bewilderment just before they lose consciousness.


--
"The Arab street knows full well that we give billions to Jordan, Egypt, and the Palestinians — and are probably baffled that we don't cut it out. They also know we have just as frequently fought Christians on their behalf as Muslims; they know — if their voting feet tell them anything — that no place is more tolerant of their religion or more open to immigration than the United States. Yes, (Radical) Islamists all know that opening a mosque in Detroit is one thing, and opening a church in Saudi Arabia is quite another."

..-- Victor Davis Hanson


A brain anyone?
"In light of this I find it repulsive that liberals can be so naive so as to insist that we pay for that coming destruction out of our pocketbooks today..."

Kevin, I know you flunked political history so let me take off a sock and make a sock puppet and talk really really slow so your unibrow brain can take this in. Ready?

There has been a link between Marxism and Islam going back almost 100 years now! Do you get it now why liberals and Moslems love one another? The enemy of my enemy is my friend, is their rule. They both hate the west and want it destroyed and the idiot lefto socialists think they can use Islam to bring the rest of the west to its knees.

Even the Catholic church is helping to flood Europe with Islamic illegal aliens. Socialism is their religion, hatred of the west their mantra.

Now take the wrapper off your brain and dig deeper.

Ignorance is known of all her children--
skinigorance whaite buy--

Why don't you read the Bible for yourself? Fraidy
cat--
People like you that spout-off their spiel like they knew what they were talking about---please-
It doesn't take two seconds for a true believer
to recognize a twerp when he tries to come off as
a "reader" of the scripture.

Get a life--

Skinnywhiteboy
skinnywhiteboy/ writes:
There is no text more barbaric
than the Old Testament of the Bible.

The Quran pales in comparison




Examples please? In otherwords, put your money where your mouth is.

American Discuvered by Muslims in 1000AD
In the Charles Gibson special they said somewhere that they were using a textbook that said that America was really discovered by Muslim travelers in the 10 century AD.

This is what they're teaching our kids, using our money.

Like I said, cultural learning is good - but Islamist propaganda- without any kind of monitoring? I say, let them do it and let's spy on them and when they screw up, let's do to them what their Koran says to do to infidels.

I can't believe it...
The whole curriculum is designed by Muslims - there isn't a single non-Muslim in the process. Where's the checks and balances!? All classroom monitoring by outside officials must be done by appointment only, and to date NO SYLLABUS HAS BEEN PROVIDED!

We're paying for this with US Tax dollars?!!!!

I'm all for cultural learning, but this is highly controlled segregation with no real monitoring at best, and a terrorist training camp at the worst. Even the best case scenario seems unconstitutional. We should all have a constitutional right to audit those classrooms. I say, lets do it!

Wrong Mr. McCullough!
It is their plan.

Brooklyn Madrasa
The Dhimmicrat party thinks that these Islamists will be peaceful if we just be nice to them. The later surrahs of the Koran were written after Mohammed had expanded Islam by the sword and he was convinced he could have world domination. Kevin has it right, even the peaceful ones are just waiting for the opportunity to impose Sharia law. I am glad that I live in a largely rural area with 1,000's of square miles of federal land out my backdoor because I seen carnage coming soon to our shores. Keep your powder dry.

Brooklyn Madrasa
I'm surprised that some parents of children in Catholic, Christian or Jewish schools (all privately funded) haven't sued the NYC School Board and his worship mayor bloomingidiot. I would think, given our current state of leftist jurisprudence, that since we can't use public funds for Catholic, Christian, or Jewish schools, that it would also be prohibited to use public funds for a terrorist madrasa.

Also, the name of the madrasa is misleading. Khalil Gibran was a Maronite Christian of Lebanese descent. He wasn't even arab and he certainly wasn't a slave to allah. Perhaps a more appropriate name would be "Osama bin Laden Terrorist Academy."
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