Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Sunday, May 06, 2007
Kevin McCullough :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why Christopher Hitchens is not Great
by Kevin McCullough
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
 
Poll
Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


The Marxist views of Christopher Hitchens have long been evident. His simple, logical support for a strong response to 9/11 had earned him as bestowed by his fellow leftists the label "necon" which he steadfastly refutes. In reality Christopher Hitchens is an angry man whose anger - while many times is justifiable - is also misplaced. The promotional tour he has embarked upon in the marketing of his newest book Why God Is Not Great demonstrates it.

When asked why he begrudged people the right to seek comfort in the thought of the Almighty he responded:

"Well, I say in the book... Absolutely fine by me if you want to believe this stuff, if you want to believe that a holy person is someone who avoids the birth canal in both directions for example. If your prophet, like every other prophet that's ever been recorded in history, had a virgin for a mother, why they think it would prove the truth of the doctrines is beyond me, but let them believe it - it's fine... as long as they leave me alone!"

He went on to support the idea that religion does oppress people because:

"They do not (leave me alone)! They want to ban the distribution of condoms in Africa. They say, 'AIDS is bad, but not as bad as condoms are.' Billions of people die on this proposition. They say they don't want me to benefit from stem cell research when I get sick... If they are Muslims they say that if I don't respect their prophet then I'm in physical danger. The parties of god are as we speak, everyday, ruining, destroying, laying waste to Iraqi society, something we can't be exactly indifferent to. A cartoonist in Denmark is not allowed to practice his trade for fear of murder or worse. And we're fed up with this... So no, they can not keep this wonderful belief as to themselves!"

His third major pillar of criticism was then leveled:

"They believe that they have a destiny in paradise, if they just observe a few stupid rules. They have a God who loves them and cares for them. Well if you believed a thing like that wouldn't you be really happy? What could hurt you? And this shows the stupidity and insecurity of the belief."

Hitchens also readily admits that he is not a scientist and that the argument of his book is to be understood from the "every man" perspective.

Even a cursory examination of Hitchens' thinking on the matter points out some needed observations. To begin with Hitchens' argument is flawed from its origin. His view that all world religions can and should be clumped into one pile of philosophical material is dishonest. As such it is illegitimate to argue against the validity of Islam and the claims of Christianity simultaneously. The distinctions that divide such belief systems are not incidental to the matter, but essential.

Hitchens blatantly misleads when he claims the "virgin birth" prophecy of the Old Testament is a wide spread historical claim of many religions. It is not, not in its most essential understanding.

But he moves beyond being wrong on substance, specifically in his claims against Christianity, to being wrong on methodologies. And again, context means everything. Evangelicals don't measure the issue of AIDS in Africa and do comparative analysis between which is worse - sexual behavior or sexual disease. Evangelicals make the argument that the sexual behavior leads to the sexual disease and that in educating people on the realities of the actual actions - lives can be saved. If education is the key, teaching someone that using a condom "may" protect them from a deadly disease is far less helpful than teaching them that a certain action will "always" protect them from it. And to assert that Africans are so animal-like in their ability to control themselves that they are incapable of making such choice is racist and violates the most fundamental of humanist’s beliefs

Christians do not make their case simply on the idea that, "God says condoms are evil." Rather the long view of God shows that He created us, and in doing so gave us guidance on the absolute best way to go about life.

On stem cell research he again makes an elemental straw-man comparison. The majority of Christians on the planet today support the overwhelming majority of stem cell research. The single form of research many object to is embryonic stem cells in which the life of a child is taken for no more of a reason than to experiment upon it. In addition the revelation that placenta cells are more plentiful, more concentrated, and always come from the birth of a child, should finally put his ill-conceived straw man to bed.

Hitchens does the most disservice to his readers and listeners when he attempts to equivocate Christianity to Islam. No where in Christianity does the doctrine, text, or deity call for the cutting off the heads of those who simply disagree. No where does the biblical text instruct Christians to wage jihad for minor doctrinal differences. Jesus himself forgave the adulterer and told her accusers to only punish her if they themselves were innocent.

In Hitchens' last flailing attempt to level criticism he asserts the keeping of rules is the ticket to paradise, and such rules are stupid and insecure. Never mind the fact that someone with Hitchens' intimidating intellect wasn't even honest enough in the construct of his argument to note that Christianity is in fact NOT a religion of rules. Rather the message of Christ's death and resurrection was simple, "you're not capable of keeping rules." Hence the sacrifice Jesus Christ went through - to use a biblical word - atoned for our sins. He paid the price we owed.

Hitchens has a soul that is angry. He sees the evil of 9/11 and has no capacity to explain it. His own indulgence resists the moral guidance God has left for him. He has saturated his mind with the far less believable claims of Marx, Darwin, and Einstein. Yet even he has not escaped the moral outrage that God put within him at the site of Islamic terrorism, the sweeping pandemic of AIDS in Africa, and the hypocrisy of "religious" leaders who still fall short of God's standards.

Hitchens' contempt is real, it is justified, and for the most part it stems from one source - though that source is not God, the Creator, but rather the sin of man's heart. In experiencing this contempt he even projects it upon others. By claiming that people are not made "happy" by the "God who loves them," Hitchens perpetrates one more falsehood. Christians are happy, filled with joy, secure in their purpose and direction. They are "enthusiastic." Which is a very accurate depiction of Christianity. The word's Greek origin meant literally "the God who dwells within." Christians today refer to Him as "the Holy Spirit."

At night when Christopher Hitchens lays his head on his pillow, there is a truth that washes over him that he can not escape. None of us can. And it is good for us to recognize it...

"There is a God, and I'm not him!"

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Kevin McCullough is the nationally syndicated host of "'Xtreme' Radio and columnist based in New York. He blogs at www.muscleheadrevolution.com. His second book "The Kind Of MAN Every Man SHOULD Be" is in stores now.

Be the first to read Kevin McCullough's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.

Why does he get it?
Hitchens is an Atheist. Atheist tend to share an attitude that Islam is not the ULTIMATE danger. They have no concept of evil. But Hitchens "gets" it and understands evil. That is very rare for an Atheist. I see this insight as Godgiven and respectfully and vehmenately disagree with his other viewpoints. But I won't grind him into the earth...

Ice pick
I don't know if the error is Tanbear's, Hitchens's or the BBC's, but it was an ice axe, not an ice pick, which was used to kill Trotsky.

I don't know why I care, but I am up at 4 AM doing work and I felt an irrational need to correct that error.

Jesus
"Jesus himself forgave the adulterer and told her accusers to only punish her if they themselves were innocent."
He also said if someone strikes you ,turn the other cheek. and If someone steals your coat give him your shirt too.
I don't get how someone who claims to follow Jesus
Can justify bombing someone who might be contemplating a strike when He teaches Resist Not Evil. If you want to tell me the terrorists have it in for us and we have to defend ourselves ,I can understand that,but if you say you're followonhg Jesus and support pre-emptive strikes that include bombing civilians-women and children.Estimates of Iraqi civilian casualties varies between 30 and 100 thousand,and another 3000 in Afghanistan.



Big"gut"..
to say Hitchens is Cool is to play the Fool.

I'll just give Christopher a HUGE pass;
his remarks about Mother Teresa told me all I need to "no" about him.

thanks tanabear
after I have read your comment, mine would' been redundant.
exactly that' what I wanted to point out , may be even more emphasis on the origins of aggressive neoconservative ideology in the Bolshevism

Gabby
(my eyes wide open and the the happy smile adorns my face as I type this), what a great, great ,great reply to Kevin-the- hypocrite.
Thank you...

CHRISTIANS HAVE DONE TO REPUBLICANS
WHAT UNIONS AND COMMUNISTS DID TO THE DEMS. THIS BORN AGAIN DUNG HAS MADE A MOCKERY OF GOD AND THE TruE LIBERTARIAN WING OF THE REPUBS.

you know the wing that elelcted ronald r. those people have left and bible thumpers and immigrant hating border zealots have replaced the lovers of liberty.

a pox on them

gc
Hey, wait a minute. I'm one of those that helped elect Ronald Reagan and I also am one of the "libertarian conservatives" (ie. traditional conservatives).

You speak of immigrants. No one is against immigrants. What we do have a problem with are illegal aliens, thwarting our laws and flooding into our country. Then, expecting free education, free healthcare, etc., etc.

So don't imply that REAL conservatives do not stand for stopping illegal immigration, because it simply is not true.

Hitchens agrees with Clinton's mentor
Carroll Quigley, on the state of our 2 party system. It's coke and pepsi. We think we're choosing, but the reality is that we are not.

"As left-wing pundit Christopher Hitchens points out, modern presidential politics is a variant of Lenin’s “democratic centralism” — the concept that a ruler who draws his mandate from the masses has virtually unlimited power. An American corollary to this idea is that since the powers conferred are so vast, the electorate has a duty to choose the “lesser of two evils,” and then “throw their votes into the unsorted heap that lies at the foot of the Dear Leader.” The bitter truth, observes Hitchens, is that “both parties actually ‘win’ and then proceed to share the spoils” at the expense of the electorate.

Our present political system is built around a two-party cartel, with the Republican and Democratic parties acting as retail franchises for an entrenched Establishment. “The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea,” wrote Georgetown University history professor Carroll Quigley in his 1966 book Tragedy and Hope. “Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can ‘throw the rascals out’ at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy.”

In fact, it is to the advantage of the political Establishment to allow the electorate to rotate ruling parties, Quigley continued, since “either party in office becomes in time corrupt, tired, unenterprising, and vigorless. Then it should be possible to replace it, every four years if necessary, by the other party, which will have none of these things but will still pursue, with new vigor, approximately the same basic policies.” In this dialectical scheme, the general division of labor is this: Democrats initiate, Republicans consolidate. George W. Bush has clearly and repeatedly promised to consolidate the socialist and globalist policies of his predecessor."
http://www.jbs.org/node/1639


Impact
Christopher Hitchens is one man with one man's views. He speaks for no one. He is answerable to no one that lives. Living in my head is concern enough--Hitchens can wallow around in his, shout and listen to the echoes reverberate, but in the final analysis; he will die. He will be judged or not; so will I. Hitchens will fall in line , in his place, with those that used to be. Nothingness, condemned, or elevated; he and he alone will be there and my interest in him is too small to care.

Birth canal bugaboo
It would seem Mr. Hitchens is the one who is obsessed with the birth canal. He's used this line in several interviews. Perhaps he thinks it's very clever. It isn't.

Hitchens is "Exhibit A" for the Leftists who are spreading the lie that anyone who wants to live in a non-Socialist, non-Leftist, MORAL society is somehow "imposing" their theocratic views on everyone.

Of course, they have no agenda, and NEVER would push their views on others, right? Sure.

p.s. I LOVE how all the libertarians here are glomming onto this guy. It says a lot about the amorality of THAT particular Faith.

In spite of all the error in his book,
I sort of like Chris Hithcens. He is correct when he states that during the terrible civil wars in Yugoslavia, reporters forgot to mention that the Croats are Catholic and the Serbs Eastern Orthodox while they referred to the Bosnians as Moslems. They did not want to admit that this was a war based upon religion. He is also correct that the Vatican did little or nothing to rein in the horrible Croats/Catholics who butchered Jews, gypsies and Serbian Orthodox Christians during WWII.

Mr Buck
I can safely say that if Hitchens chooses to respond to McCullough (and he frequently does respond to his detractors, even on forums such as this), then Mr McCullough's blunt demagogic arguments will be carefully picked apart by the Hitch.


liberty
i am not implying it. i am stating it. we have illegal immigration because legal immigration is a joke. you need to go stand in line in an american embassy and see how people are treated. you need to pay $117 for a non refundable visa ap mostly rejected nastily just to change planes in miami. openning the borders to legal immigrants is the answer because they are needed. the illegal thing is just an excuse to say i got mine, you guys suck, besides you talk funny.

liberty lovers liberty love liberty and opportunity for all. we should offer mexico to agree to the reciprocal right to live and work in either country for all who wish to and have a clean police report. it is standard in foreign countries to use both native police report and interpol which coalates all international crime. new arrival bashing is an age old practice in the usa, always vile, always evil, always the same excuses. the same things about illegal entry, use of services and non assimulation were said about the italians and greeks in queens where i grew up. does not change. same ant farming enemies of liberty trying to fine dial in the america they want for themselves.

Excellent!
Mr. Hitchins has always intrigued me. He is very intelligent and articulate. I have one of his debates on my computer- concerning 9/11 and he is absolutely devastating in his argumentation against the view that the war is not related to the war on terror. This being said, he is at the same time a man enslaved by his emotions, which is too bad for he has much to offer. I find most people of his ilk (concerning religion) the closest to coming to a faith in Christ. I say that because if they follow their logic to its conclusion they are left with seeking a "Savior" or falling into abject despair. It is particularly profound with a man such as this, because God has gifted him with such an intellect and an appropriate outrage at the sins of mankind- he is always on the teeter of despair. God can reach men such as these. I just pray Mr. Hitchens falls into the despair and sees no way out and realizes that without Christ there is no hope. As many believers have noted- if Christ be not risen then our faith is in vain, and we should eat, drink and be merry, for tommorrow we die. If the world is meaningless, we should never have come to know that it is meaningless. Atheism is self refuting.

The devil is in the extremes
As always, the devil is in the extremes, and works both sides of the street. I suspect that the object of the game is to keep us from the "happy medium"--note that it's not called either the “miserable medium” or the “ecstatic medium”.

Hope is the middle ground between presumption and despair. Prudence is the middle ground between heedlessness and indecisiveness. Most of the virtues to which humans have traditionally aspired represent what that middle ground actually is, which is balance in thought, feeling and action.

Balance is not mediocrity. It is not the "Oh, whatever" frame of mind. It requires recognition of the extremes and deliberate action to avoid them. The certainty that I'm right and everyone else is wrong will invariably lead to strife, regardless of what it is that I'm so certain about.

I've never met God face to face, and I can't pretend to know His mind, which would be right up there with a flea trying to contemplate quantum physics. I do have faith in His existence.

I think it's interesting that Christ lived and died in the time and place that He did. If He'd lived today, CNN would have had a camera crew at the tomb based on the rumors their reporters had been hearing. ("Well, Wolf, we're here, ha-ha-ha, but so far nothing's happen---Oh. My. God.) Then, we'd be considered right up there with the holocaust-deniers if we DIDN'T believe in Christ's divinity, and free will would be a joke, since nobody'd WANT to do anything to jeopardize either his own salvation or that of his family, friends and neighbors.

But that's not the case, so we're left with doubts. However, where there's room for doubt, there's also room for faith. There's also room to choose the right thing over the thing that's easy, or convenient, or pleasurable, or "in our interests" or just plain wrong.

I haven't read Christopher Hitchens' new book, but I've seen an evolution in his thinking away from his former doctrinaire Marxist views. I think I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, and agree with ApolloSpeaks that he's probably God's favorite atheist.

The opposite of reason
You most certainly CAN compare fundamentalist Christianity and Islam. To say otherwise means suggests that you lack the capacity to be objective. First of all, if you actually know a bit about what is actually said in the scripture, then you'd know that if Christians followed the letter of the law as strictly as some Muslims do, they'd be doing things like stoning people to death for working on the sabbath and selling their daughters as sex slaves. This IS what your Bible literally prescribes, so if you REALLY were a good "fundamentalist" Christian, you'd have to follow these rules. I have yet to hear a single Christian respond to this.

In any case, all religions are essentially the same as they remove any sort of ethical REASONING. Things are good or bad not because you've weighed all the options and made the desicion that has the best chance for a good outcome for all involved, rules are taken from a holy scripture and accepted without any thought or question. When people accept things without questioning whether they are right or wrong, the results are often disasterous.

Strangely, there is some wiggle room when murder is pragmatic, but never is there any room for interpretation when it comes to sex. Never has there been a war that hard-line Christians didn't ENTHUSIASTICALLY support, but sex is ALWAYS unacceptable. Hence, we have reasoning like this:

"If education is the key, teaching someone that using a condom "may" protect them from a deadly disease is far less helpful than teaching them that a certain action will "always" protect them from it. And to assert that Africans are so animal-like in their ability to control themselves that they are incapable of making such choice is racist and violates the most fundamental of humanist’s beliefs."

To assert that ANY human is so HUMAN-like in their ability to control themselves violates the most fundamental of humanist beliefs. Abstinance-only education has been around for CENTURIES, I think we can say with great certainty that it really doesn't work.

Cool it, Warrior
Your anti-Semitic comments are offensive. They are not conservative. They are evil and opposed to everything conservatives stand for.

Sam
Since you asked the questions concerning Jesus, I'll ask you a couple.

1. Why did his disciples carry swords.

2. Why did he praise the faith of a Roman centurion?

3. What did he mean "render to Caesar's that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God's

His "turn the other cheek" was a comment on the Jew's desire for revenge. He was telling his disciples to be more forgiving that what Jewish law required, just like the admonition that if the Roman soldier tells you carry the load 1 mile, carry it 2 miles.

dyerje
Go suck eggs. Criticism of a group based on their history is just stating facts. You don't like the facts, don't read and become educated, just pull out and dust off some dumb label in an effort to stifle the debate. Your condemnation of me has no history to provide you support--your blind off hand labeling provides all the history I need to consider you ill informed.Here are a couple questions for you to research: 1 What was Trotsky's real name? 2. Where was he murdered? 3. How many Jews were there in the Bolshevik Party (%) at the time of the Russian revolution of 1917? 4. Who was Bella Kun? 5. Who was Joe Slovo? 6. Who was Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Leibnecht? 7. Who was Kurt Eisner? 8. Who were Kaganovich and Yagoda and how many Christian Ukrainians did Kaganovich kill? 9. What did Solzhenitsyn say in his book " The Gulag Archipelago " about Yagoda? 10. What did all these murderers have in common? What are Khasars? Do your homework.

oneway - or the other...
Both you and Mr. McCullough present an interesting dichotomy.

Regarding divine judgment meted out by the hand of man, Mr. McCullough is dead wrong in stating that the bible never states: “No where in Christianity does the doctrine, text, or deity call for the cutting off the heads of those who simply disagree.” Perhaps not using the same language, but there are Old Testament biblical verses that would imply the same result and for an (arguably) similar reason.

For example, King Saul is commanded to, “…go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." (1Sa 15:3). Pretty inclusive list. And let’s not forget that God removed the mantle of King from Saul because Saul did not kill every living thing as he was commanded, but instead allowed some to escape death, including Agag, the king of the Amalekites.

And while you are right, it is for the wrong reason.

For example, Jesus emphasized that a Christian is to love his neighbor as himself (Luke 10:27), with the following parable of the Good Samaritan underscoring that “neighbor” referred to anyone, that Jesus was inclusive of everyone.

The problem here, and it’s not an unusual one, is that neither the believer, nor the unbeliever understands Christianity enough to intelligently comment on it. That is to be expected on the one hand, but not the other. And that a believer fails to understand his own theological history (the OT is every bit a part of the bible as the NT for a Christian) is by far the greater danger as it is that ignorance which allows opinions such as yours to go unchecked. Or worse, checked, but by a demonstrably false proof.

The bottom-line, without spending days delving into the fuller contexts and theological implications of the texts, is that Christians, the Crusades not withstanding, do not have a concept of jihad. Quite the opposite. And while there are some who would call themselves “Christian” yet violate the very essence of what that means, for the most part (and unlike Islam), they are roundly criticized, rejected by the majority, and have no text to support them within the context of Christ.

Oh and warrior, history simply reflects what man does. And while it attempts to speak to the interpretation of his motivations, it does not weigh whether or not those interpretations were right or wrong within the greater context of his philosophical or theological understanding. It simply responds to it.

The God of Abraham
I have read many conservative critiques of Islam, and doing so has really changed my view of all Abrahamic religions. The conservative argument that the God portrayed in al-Qur’an al-Karim is fundamentally different than that worshiped by Christians or Jews.

Any quick reading of the old testament quickly puts to an end such arguments. The God of Abraham is not good. He is not mysterious. He is just evil, racist and arbitrary.

In fact there are very few instances in the old testament were god does anything even neutral let alone good.

The crimes of the God of Abraham are too numerous by far to list. So I will just mention a couple.

Firstly, when he became displeased with humanity the best response he could think of was to wipe our the entirety of humanity save one family. That means God killed presumably millions of men women and children. What, one must ask, did all those children do to offend him?

Then of course there was the time when God felt in a bit of a gaming mood. He made a bet with the devil that Job would remain faithful even if God and Satan killed off his family and covered him with weeping soars ect. So they did kill off Job's family. After Job inexplicably remained faithful God didn't raise his family from the dead. No he supplied him with a new family. That might have been fine for Job but what about his poor family? This is the monster from whom you get your "culture of life"?

And, when his followers needed a home land, did he direct them to an empty part of the world? Did he raise a new promised land from the sea? No, he led them to were there were already people living and told his people to kill them.

It is al-Qur’an al-Karim that is completely consistent with the old testament. The God of Abraham was a blood thirsty genocidal monster and proud of it.

Now one could argue that Jesus was proposing a new different understanding of God. When I read the new testament, this is what I think. But conservative Christians take the exact opposite view. They do not use the new testament to replace the misunderstandings of the old testament. They interpret everything in the new testament as though it must be compatible with the old.

No wonder so many have been able to employee Christianity in the service of genocide, slavery and torture.

Now, I am not saying that it is impossible to craft a religion of love and peace around this flawed deity. I know many who have. But, I suppose one could develop a religion of love and peace based on the rantings of Charles Manson. It doesn't make it right. And, it certainly doesn't make him any better of a person.

I used to think that what other people worshiped was none of my affair. But seeing how conservative Christians try to impose their morality based on this monster on me, I have to respond.

Your god is an abomination. Even if he were real, no moral person would worship him. It's not ok that you worship such an evil entity. Please get help.

Militant Leftest
What did they do to offend him? you ask.

According to Genesis: "all mankind (except Noah and family) was vicious and depraved. " .

And what are your beliefs and moral rules for living? What do you worship?

Will
Actually, there are recorded incidents of (non-divine) parthenogenesis. It is exceedingly rare, but does occur. So the idea that semen "must" be introduced is absurd. Even if you absolutely deny any divine influence in the world, there is always the possibility of human parthenogenesis, which offers an alternative to your "Mary must have lied" theory.

Of course, a birth by parthenogenesis must always be female (no Y chromosome) and a genetic duplicate of half the chromosomes of the mother (as a single ovum provides the DNA, meaning it reproduces exactly half the genetic components of the mother), so Joshua would have been Hannah, but did want to point out virgin births are not the absolute impossibility you and Hitchens seem to argue they are. (See http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/sex2.htm citations in 4th paragraph -- not the best citation, but have no books or journals at hand so I am left with google citations. And I admit a theosophist site is not the best source for scientific citations, but the rest provided by the first few google pages were on cloning, so not really relevant. Though I do have confirmation that the Lancet article exists from this site: http://postbloggery.blogspot.com/2006/11/amazing-no-complaining-thursdays.html , so, at least this isn't one of those fabricated studies that seem to plague some fields.)

Of course, all of this is irrelevant for the topic of Jesus, but I seem to be set on correcting minor technical errors today, so figured I should bring up this one as well.


Tanabear
I thought it most likely the BBC which provided the mistaken quote, but I didn't confirm it this morning, so had to add the possibility you mis-quoted. Glad you cleared it up.

I doubt that ice axe and ice pick are used in Britain for the same item, as I have always seen them sued the same way they are in the US.

None of it really matters, but, as I said earlier, seem to be set on correcting very minor errors today, so I am sticking with my nitpicking role.

Joshua
Just for those who didn't follow, I used "Joshua" above, as that was the name of the man the Romans named "Jesus". He would have been "Joshua ben Joseph" or "Yeshua ben Yusef" or perhaps "bar", rather than "ben" (I never recall which to use for which period or which language, Aramaic or Hebrew -- My teachers would not be happy with my ignorance, but it had been a long time.)

In any case, his name was Joshua, Jesus was the Latin version of his name, Messiah is the Hebrew title meaning "anointed" and Christ is the anglicized version of "Christos" the Greek word meaning "anointed". Always amazed how few Christians seem to know this (especially since I am quite non-Christian yet thought this was common knowledge).

Ok, more mostly irrelevant information. Time for me to stop posting now.

Great article!
I'm pleased with the defense of Christianity. One of the strangest things to me is to meet seemingly sensible conservatives who have not accepted Jesus' offer of eternal life.
To God be all glory,
Lisa of Longbourn

Will
The Lancet of 1959 found at least one birth it attributed it virgin birth. While one can argue about the validity of the study, I think the Lancet is a reputable journal.

Yes, it is exceedingly rare, and it is arguable what very minute percentage of births are parthenogenesis in humans. It has been documented in other mammals however, so to think it does not occur in humans is absurd.

I also said nothing about walking on water. Though every winter I do so. Sometime I use skates.

Please stop painting me as some fanatical Christian. I am not Christian. Nor do I believe in virgin birth by divine intercession. But there is evidence of virgin birth in "lower" mammals, so to think it is impossible in humans seems arrogant. In addition, the Lancet does provide documentation of one possible case.

So, besides sarcasm and slurs, do you have any reason to argue against the possibility or the Lancet article?


packrat
I guess I'd say my beliefs are evolving. I have a firm belief in God. I was raised Lutheran. I think their might be something in Christianity, but only if it is completely divorced from the old testament. I believe that Jewish response to having an evil god is quite innovative and even beautiful. But I can't abide believing in an evil god in the first place. I live day to day by the principals of Taoism. I don't think that there is anything wrong with Buddhism, but I am not an atheist so I am not really attracted to it. There is something wonderful about Wicca in that it was founded on a concept that was a total lie. But like most new western religious movements it seems terminally poisoned by Abrahamic beliefs.

In short, I am still open to good ideas. You have any?

Will
Did you actually read my entire post or just read one line and go nuts with rage? I mention the Lancet IN MY POST, you then ask for my reference?

I think you need to ask yourself why you get so angry when people mention faith? Is there something in you that makes you so resentful about religion?

I am not Christian, but they don't drive me into the frothing madness you seem to enter as a response to any mention of the divine. I do admit, I am religious and have strong beliefs in G-d, but I am not a Christian and merely point out that parthenogenesis is not the impossibility you and Hitchens mock.

Just wondering why you get so worked up?

Will, Last one
I think if you are going to try to become the next Hitchens with your snarky little pseudo-witty remarks, you may want to work at it a bit more. Your grilled cheese comments especially was pretty pathetic.

If you want to tear apart others' remarks using sarcasm, you may want to actually comment on what they wrote, rather than regurgitate pre-packaged arguments. Just a bit of advice.

Also, tone down the foaming at the mouth rabid anger a bit. It tends to make you non-sympathetic to those who don't already entirely share your views. Too much anger turns off those you are trying to win over.



God's benevolence
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18502330/

I just watched on NBC nightly news where a tornado wiped out 95% of the town of Greenland, KS, including the churches. Now, why would your god do that?

DA
That argument is only valid if one believe there is a G-d who intercedes in the world. Admittedly, many here do believe in an active G-d who daily intervenes in the world, and for them, that may be a valid question. However, to think you can point to any event and say "Look, bad stuff, where's your G-d now?" and refute the existence of G-d is a bit arrogant. Sorry to say, but someone has thought of that "brilliant" idea before, and it has been addressed by better minds than yours (or mine). Whether you accept the answers or not is up to you, but the mere existence of suffering or evil is not enough of an argument to refute the possibility of anything beyond the merely physical.

DA
In fact, if you accept Buddhism, your argument is counter productive. Suffering is the cornerstone of much Buddhist theology.

Yet, I doubt you find Buddhist spirituality any more convincing than Christianity.

Just pointing out the existence of suffering does not prove there is no spiritual realm.

DA
God didn't do it. A tornado did.

Militant Leftist
God is not racist or any of those other slanders you accused Him of. Who are you to judge God? Your atheist "gods" of communism (Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot) have done far, far worse. Seems to me that 200 million plus murdered (all of them innocent) in less than a century is much worse.

Mil Left Pt 2
Not to mention the 40 million innocent babies murdered since 1973 (which you and other like you euphemisically refer to as "choice")

Will
I was not saying I could prove G-d. I was saying that your efforts at disproving G-d are just as futile.

I simply wonder why you waste your time.

You seem to do it with such glee, you must have some reason, I can't figure out what you get out of it.

And I am pompous? Excuse me, but people who write little school boy sophistries about disasters proving there is no G-d cannot accuse others of pompous writing.

Will
Or is it because I don't turn into your mental image of the hellfire and brimstone religious fanatic that you accuse me of being pompous?

Or because you can't actually address what I am saying? That proving or disproving G-d is impossible, and you are simply wasting your time?

Or, rather, you get your kicks by trying to mock the faithful and "prove" how ignorant they are?

If I am pompous, so be it. You are arrogant and ignorant, and worst, unaware of your own ignorance.

2 cents
I was trying to make a point to the religionists that if something good happens, they immediately attribute it to god. However, if something bad happens, it is all of a sudden natures fault. Either god cares [if he exists] or he doesn't.

DA
If that were the position of all religious individuals, I would agree with you. However, to a degree that is a strawman. Some may hold that belief, but it is hardly the only belief, nor do I think it is the belief of a majority.

I expect some will post after me to prove me wrong, explaining how G-d does intervene in the world constantly.

However, if that was your point, then you can ignore most of my post, as I obviously thought you were making a more general argument.

I hope Will doesn't find this reply too pompous for his taste.

cbtbman
What would you call a god who selects one group of people who self identify as a racial group and then says he loves them above all others and that he has selected a special place for them to live. There are people there so they will have to kill them.

I judge this god as a racist and a genocidal monster unworthy of worship. If it is between the God of Abraham as he is portrayed in the old testament or hell. I would chose hell and any moral person would.

If the old testament is true good wiped out the entirety of humanity minus one family. We can count bodies till the cows come home but a god holds itself out to a higher standard.

When Stalin turned from the communist ideals he professed to a murdering madman, at least some people tried to stop him. Even Lenin was shot and probably killed by a real communist when she saw that he betrayed the movement.

When God said he was going to wipe out the entire population of the earth, did Noah say I won't go on the ark I won't let you do it. No he just went along with the homicidal maniac. There's no excuse for it. The god of Abraham is a horrible god. Noah was a horrible person for going along with him.

As long as you keep your religion to yourself you can believe in whatever. I don't care. But if you say that I have to do this or that because your god said so, then I am going to tell you just what I think of your god.

We didn't start the culture war but we are sure as heck going to finish it. All who have confronted us have been destroyed by our glorious greatness. The nazis and the southern segregationists are no more. All of our enemies will be submit or be destroyed. We are like Kali dancing. The demons of this world and the next fall before our blows like ripe fruit falling from the vine. The revolution is glorious indeed!!!!

Packrat
Jesus didn't carry a sword.His disciples fell short of his teachings several times.What you suggedt is that I should take the apprentices as role examples ,but I have more respect for the master.Not that I'm claiming my faith is so well developed. Rendering unto Ceaser seems to refer to taxes.Do you mean to imply it means carrying weapons? Please explain.

The English Twit
I like the title of your missive. Nicely done.

My wife and I were watching TV and saw Hitchens new book being hawked on Fox. As soon as she saw the title my wife got up and walked out of the room.

I flipped the channel. Didn't even bother watching the interview.

Heck, I use to think that Hitchens was just another effitist, intellectual, snobby Brit.

Now, I'm convinced that he's just another British twit who's worthy of nothing but contempt.



Sam

I did not say that Jesus carried a sword, his disciples did for self defense. Galilee was not a nice place, remember Barabbas.

We all fall short of his teachings from time to time.

No the render unto Caesar comment was to demonstrate that he recognized the existence of the secular government, not that he approved of it.

You skipped over my second question, which to me demonstrated that he recognized more faith in a Roman warrior than was present in many of his fellow Jews. He did not comment on or condemn the man's position.

militant leftist
militant leftist,

what you assume is that the people that died in the flood were not already judged. if they were judged at that point, then the flood was the means of implementing that justice.

Job,
again, the assumption is that the be all and end all is life on earth. what about life after death? it is relavent to Christians since life on earth is not guranteed to be comfortable

Canaan,
the promised land. this land was meant to be fought for. it was not going to be given to them. just as they had to fight bondage from the Egyptians, they needed to fight for the land. it was a test of faith. did the Israelites have faith in God's promise

Christianity,
though the Bible is the written Word of God, Jesus left a Church not a book. Jesus taught to love thy neighbor as thyself.

please let me know where the Baptists are commiting genocide. it's not Georgia again is it? Any concrete examples in the US of the genocide that you fear??


Balderdash -- and Fiddle-De-Dumb even...
Seems as if ol' Chris may well be "pulling someones' chain" or tweaking the Hard Right just a tad more than they find "comfortable" -- as they try to ban the Morning After pill, numerous books and even Where's Waldo - - as they pander to the Baptists and evangelicals by outlawing Internet Wagering while allowing Lotto, OTB and their "favorite charity drawings" and Building Fund raffle. Anti-abortion stuff is one thing, but anti-CHOICE is another; and, if you'll pardon the vernacular, all that anti-gay crap sucks too!
As a Deist, no, I shrug at all that virgin stuff and Bible "teachings" (Second Kings 2 too?), the verious rewritings, revisions, reintreputations of same -- the "man-made" rules that caused the multiple popes to have wives, the Spanish Inquisition and witch-burnings? Spare me from orthodox religions where people must wear hats of some sort or another, not wear make-up, not sing or dance -- and where surgically enhanced pink-haired women with runny mascara plead for money on TV while "speaking in tongues?"
Methinks thou doth protest too much, maybe?

Oh, Andrew? About that name...
His name was YESHO BEN PANTERA to His contemporaries - born in Galilee/Nazareth, the illegitimate son of a Roman legionary and Mary, a Temple Virgin who was engaged to a prosperous widower, Joseph who, to his credit, raised the boy as his own; the legionnaire having been transferred from the district when the pregnancy became known (the acclaimed biography "Jesus" by A. N. Wilson 1992 Sinclair-Stevenson via "The Light Of Other Days"/Clarke-Baxter). There was no census, no trek to Bethlehem, no manger/cattle/wise-men/shepherds and no Star. That all was an invention of the evangelists to show how this boy-child was the fulfillment of a prophecy - no more than another invention. As a youth, apprenticed to his uncle, a builder, (not a carpenter, He became a craftsman) spent most of His days in Sepphoris, the capital of Galilee - married and fathered a daughter. It's also said that there were 14, not 12 Apostles, and when, some years later at the Passover feast, He did not do that Eucharist bit ("this is my body/blood" - another invention of the evangelicals). But, He certainly did try to bring groups/people together.
Oh, about Mary Magdalene and He, the Bible sez: "She administered to Him of her substance." Hmmmmm.

frost
I bet you believed every word of the Di Vinci Code
and Cameron's Tomb of Jesus,

The widely acclaimed bibliography you mention as included in science fiction author Arthur C Clarke's book about going back in time with his Worm-Cam thorough worm holes to see what really happened with Lincoln, Jesus, etc.

Try the original Star Trek episode about the Roman Empire lasting on another planet into the 23rd century with an accompanying belief in the Son of Man. It is more original in its premise.



A couple things
Will, it is entirely possible that a woman can become pregnant without "being with a man". The bible doesn't say that sperm wasn't introduced, just that it wasn't done through intercourse. Sperm is viable and can travel internally and reach the egg. Given the lack of really good hygiene back in the day (say around the year zero), it is possible that Mary was exposed to sperm in such a manner as it fertilized an egg.

The Virgin Birth is a matter of Faith. Either you believe it or you don't. That is why Faith is the cornerstone of religion, which leads me to my second point.

Religion was originally started to help mankind understand the unexplainable. Why did the sun rise, rain come, earthquakes happen, etc. Early religion provided an "explanation" for many of these things which provided solace for mankinds inquisitive mind. As science has progressed, the rise of more secular explanations apparently debunk some religious tenets. Those scientific explanations help some deal with the world around them.

Humans are complex creatures with an incredible capacity to learn and to question that which is around them. Science helps me to understand the world around me, but I do realize that I am a very small cog in the vast machine that is the universe. Some of the things I witness every day defy scientific explanation and for those things I have my Faith.

packrat
No,you didn't say Jesus carried a sword. But why didn't he? Because he had faith,I suspect. Perhaps his disciples carried weapons because they were afraid. Does he not tell his disceples of their insufficent faith? Or perhaps it was just what men did in those times. Acolytus has written ;"the apostles carried swords, but it was our Lord who told them to put them away so that He could take on the hate and stop the path and cycles of sin there and then. There in lies the true eternal example of Christian perfection."
Perhaps the Roman centurion you mentioned ,acted on his faith rather,than just preaching,or making a show of it. Never the less you seem to be marshalling these assertions to support the idea that making war is compatible with the teachings of Christ. So far I am unpersuaded. am unpersuaded. You have not addressed his statement Resist not Evil.

If Turn the other Cheek was only meant for the Jews,how do you know all the teachings weren't meant for only the Jews?
“You have heard it said an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth but I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil” and again “You have heard it said You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy, but I say to you love your enemies” Are only the Jews to love their enemies? Can someone really be a follower of Christ and not follow his teachings? IS bombing civilians,so called collateral damge,consistent with loving your enemies?

Sam
Turn the other cheek was an admonition to return insult ( a slap in the face) with love.

Theologians have been arguing for years about what constitutes a "just war"

If you do not resist evil, is that not encouraging it?

Discontinuity about evil, quote " get behind me , Satan"

You bring up excellent points

Jesus and his followers spread the word to the Gentiles because his teachings were rejected by the ruling clergy of the day.

The reference to offer no resistance was in response to the Pharisees view that only those that did them good deserved favorable attention. ( An early What's in it for me?)

Much of what Jesus did aggravated the Jews of the time , because they were expecting a Messiah who would destroy the Romans.


investigate the truth

seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened, ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

The Holy Bible is like no other piece of liteture. It's prophets have accuratly foretold the future. But what is most intreging is the quite intricate code that is found in the pages of the Bible that spells out modern events in great detail only a divinly inspired author could have produced such a work.

And when one begins to understand the role that the Jewish people have played in the world who are called " the chosen people of God " and studied the history of the world as a hole one begins to see the hand of God at work as his will as writen in the Holy Scriptrures playes out before our eyes.

Packrat
No,you didn't say Jesus carried a sword. But why didn't he? Because he had faith,I suspect. Perhaps his disciples carried weapons because they were afraid. Does he not tell his disciples of their insufficent faith? Or perhaps it was just what men did in those times. Acolytus wrote:"..the apostles carried swords, but it was our Lord who told them to put them away so that He could take on the hate and stop the path and cycles of sin there and then. There in lies the true eternal example of Christian perfection."
perhaps the centurion acted on his faith rather,than just preaching,or making a show of it. This same incident was used to justify slavery in the past.Did Jesus endorse adultery when he saved the adultress from stoning? You seem to be marshalling these assertions to support the idea that making war is compatible with the teachings of Christ. So far I am unpersuaded. You have not addressed his statement Resist not Evil.

“You have heard it said an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth but I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil” and again “You have heard it said You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy, but I say to you love your enemies”
If Turn the other Cheek was only meant for the Jews,how do you know all the teachings weren't meant for only the Jews? This was apparently the belief of the apostles,until the conversion of Cornelius.
Anway how is pre-emptive bombing that kills thousands of non-combatants consistent with loving one's enemies?Much less the directive to turn the other cheek. I can't see how it's consistent with fighting terrorism,it gives terrorsist recruiters stark injustice to claim they're avenging. This is poor strategy militarily,and inconsistent with the historical tennets of "just war".

? for will~
"I never said Mary "lied". I think human authors concocted a cockamamy story & ATTRIBUTED a "virgin" birth to Mary."

Okay, will if the story is false, what was the motive? What did the author(s) have to gain?

Packrat
sorry for the double posting,I've often had such difficulties withthis site.
The question "If you do not resist evil, is that not encouraging it?" is extremely cogent. i would say it depends on how one resists. The danger is that one will end up playing evil's game.An old chinese philsopher put it thus:
"If evil is branded, it thinks of weapons, and if we do it the favor of fighting against it blow for blow, we lose in the end because thus we ourselves get entangled in hatred and passion. Therefore it is important to begin at home, to be on guard in our own persons against the faults we have branded.

The centurion
The centurion was the one who asked that his servant be healed, but understanding the Jewish attitudes toward the Romans told Jesus that he believed that if Jesus said the servant would be healed, it would be so. Hence , the remark about the centurion's faith.

Have enjoyed the discussion with you.

We must indeed beware of our actions.

Carpet bombing of civilians has occurred in the distant past and will happen in the future as well. However in times of war, if the "enemy" shoots at one from a "place of worship" ( be it a pagoda, a church or a mosque") he has defiled that place and it unfortunately may become a target. Same is true of hiding behind civilians to attack. Cowardly behavior that can lead to the death of the innocents, and I blame the one's hiding behind women and children.


Frost
A roman legionary named Pantera? Really, did his fellow legionaires Megadeath and Slayer enjoy listening to loud guitars?

First, no roman families named "Pantera" at the time. We have a good list of both patrician and plebian gens and pantera is not one of them. In addition, Pantera is not one of the very few accepted first names in Rome (eg. Gaius, Gnaeus, Aulus, Lucius, Marcus). The acceptable first names are the ones you see abbreviated with one or two letters. And P is for Paulus, not Pantera.

So, how did this "Pantera" get to be a legionaire? And where did he come from?

Sorry, not buying it. I'm no Christian, so this isn't a doctrine thing. It is just that what you propose is silly from the point of view of history. I can't even begin to buy this "Pantera" gent you propose.

Also, it was early enough in the Empire that only Italy and Cisalpine Gaul had been granted citizenship. Legionaires at the time were all citizens. So the name would be either Roman, Gallic,Etruscan, or Sabine. Not one of those would have produced a "Pantera". In fact, the Etruscan influence on the other groups was so strong, that they are pretty close to a single ethnic group (though the Gallic influence on the north did bring Gallic names, but still no Panteras.)

I am still chuckling over Legionaire Pantera.

No, not buying it.

Objections
I know someone will mention the Gauls Caesar recruited. They were auxiliaries, not legionaires. However, even if we include the auxiliary troops, I don't see any "pantera" popping up in the legion rolls. Pantera is a roman name, and, as far as I have ever seen, natives kept their native names until such a time as they attained citizenship, at which time they adopted Roman names. So, it wouldn't be Pantera, it would be the Gallic word for Panther. And when he became a citizen he would become Paulus or Marcus or Lucius and adopt the gens of his patron, most likely.

In any case, no one would display their foreign origin by adopting a patently flase gens like "Pantera".

Still not buying it.

has brought me many a good laugh, though.

And now I read someone saying it comes from Arthur C Clarke. Which is kind of a shame. I always thought Clarke was a bit more precise than that. Using such a patently bogus Roman name.


Last bit
By "Roman name" in the sentence above, I mean the word "pantera" is in Latin, not that it is an actual name. Need to clear that up.

Oops
P is for Publius, not Paulus. A very stupid mistake on my part. All the theology got Paul stuck in my thoughts.

Cowardly
Yes certainly it is cowardly to hide behind women and children,but if one kills such innocents in counterattack one is not blameless. This is exactly how fighting evil on it's own terms can cause good people to do evil. In the past wars were fought on battle fields,and though there were sieges and massacres of civilians throughout history,armies moved slowly and non comabtants could usually get out of the way.Not since the development of guns. At one time I lived among polyneisans wh osaw the use of guns,and even knives as cowardly,they only fought hand to hand,and the most common murder weapon was the fist.If it's easier to kill at a distnce wth a gun ,it's easier still to drop bombs and never even see the result. This is the essence of the dehumanisation modern technology.
Carpet bombng only goes back as far as WWII,It developed within my parents lifetime. It was menat to cause so much destrtuction to brng about surrender.Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the logical development of the strategy.Modern technology has extended our physical powers drasticall beyond our wisdom and emotional maturity as humans. We've been witnessing mass insanity.

Jesus as a man of peace
Whether Jesus was a man of total non-violence is a matter of some debate. Some believe that Jesus spent time in India which was being influenced by Jainist concepts of non-violence. He was not according to scriptures a vegetarian though.

More than likely Jesus lived his entire life in Israel. Most of his teachings can be traced to Jewish thought then current.

The real crux of the debate is the episode in the bible where Jesus cleanses the temple of money changers. The temple was a very important source of political power and was guarded by a garrison of Roman soldiers. You can see the garrison on maps of the time. It directly overlooked the temple. The argument goes that either Jesus accomplished the cleansing of the temple with a large enough army to at least deter the Romans or that the cleansing was either mostly symbolic, or didn't really happen at all.

There can be no argument that Jesus like Mohammad was a great and vicious military leader. But he may have been some sort of military leader and used force as well as persuasion.

At the scene where Jesus is captured, it is explicitly mentioned that at least some of his followers were armed.

Probably Jesus believed like the bible says and the song too, For everything there is a season. What seems clear is that though there may have been some forced used, his ministry was mainly a season of peace.

moses

The point is that the god of Abraham resorted to genocide rather than persuasion. You can't tell me that all the children of the world then were wicked.

Your explanation of the Job incident is interesting to a degree. It could be a very good argument for abortion. I mean if you could chose between a very short life, a sort of traumatic death, and then heaven. Wouldn't you choose this over the slightest chance of hell. Many Christians believe the vast majority of people are going to hell. Wouldn't it be a mercy to spare your children from this risk?

But seriously this story just doesn't jibe with the whole culture of life thing.

Your argument with the Canaanites just doesn't do anything for me at all. I mean if God came down and told me that my friends and I needed to show our faith by killing you and your friends, I would tell god to "f" off and I hope most people would.

But, I admit that I judge Hinduism less harshly even though its most sacred book involves a god talking a human hero into a genocidal war where half the population and all of his family were going to parish. I have an explanation but it is long, complicated, and admittedly weak So I will think on this some more.

I will tell you what my greatest fear is that if a nuclear bomb is detonated in one of our cities that we will wipe out all Muslims everywhere. We certainly could do it if we wanted. But even if Muslim extremists were to blame for the nuclear holocaust it wouldn't be right to wipe them all out. But some of the stuff I have seen written by Christian conservatives makes me fear that they would think that this would be a good idea.

Andrews - - if you go back and look -
You'll see that I quoted a source for the information presented: The acclaimed biography "Jesus" by A. N. Wilson 1992 Sinclair-Stevenson as was REPRINTED IN (among other places) "The Light Of Other Days"/Clarke-Baxter, where I came across it first.

Now, inasmuch as I wasn't there, I certainly can't testify that it's all solid stuff. And I have no idea from whence the name Pantera cometh, nor do I really give a hoot. But, as there were some very specific hard-line cases stating their "facts" as facts, and that this is a discussion place, hey... there it was, available for comment.

And you made yours.

Now, if you'll pardon me, there's a delightful lady who's warmed the bed sufficiently.....

'Night.


What book?
What book is McCullough reading? He says, quote, "No where in Christianity does the doctrine, text, or deity call for the cutting off the heads of those who simply disagree. No where does the biblical text instruct Christians to wage jihad for minor doctrinal differences."
Jesus is alledged to have said, " But those, mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Luke 19:27. How much more jihadic can you get?

Luke 19:27
Cheap shot Milo
The quoted scripture is the at the very end of a parable that Jesus was relating to His disciples. It was NOT an instructional comment. As in all discussions wherein quotes are taken, most of the time statement(s) which appear to be controversial are actually taken out of context. Same for politics for the most part.
Please be more intellectual in your search for the Truth. I suggest a 180 in your 'thinking'.
Bless you, keep trying.

So revealing
Most of you on here probably haven't read the book so you don't even know what you're talking about.

You're making comments for something from which you have done no research of your own; no reading of your own regarding the new text; you probably haven't even read your bible you just cherry picked the pieces you liked or listened to your pastor on Sunday and took his word for it.

How ignorant.

Research and facts are the basis for great understanding in our world, yet some, if not most, of you can't even had the balls to do the research necessary in order to make an informed decision along with intelligent remarks based on fact.

What a bunch of idiots.

If you had read your bible you would have to come to terms with the varied and many incongruncies within it.

How do you rationalize using the 10 commandments, but not the punishments that go along with them?

If you say only the New Testament is applicable, then why even speak of the 10; why acknowledge the ridiculous creation story; etc.

Your god is imaginary; your god is a placebo; that's fine, like Hitchens says, play with your toys(god) at home but keep 'em there, too.

Cheap Shot?
Robert Pirsig
"When one person suffers from delusion we call it insanity. When many people suffer from delusion, we call it religion."


"The Bible fully supports slavery. In fact, the Bible has been used in many cases, including the American civil war, as an authoritative justification of slavery. Here are three examples.

Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life. - Leviticus 25:44

Also:

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. - Exodus Chapter 21:20

Also:

Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory, nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity. - Titus 2:9

You can see that, according to the Bible:
Buying and selling slaves is fine.

Beating slaves is fine.

Slaves are to show entire and true fidelity.

If you are an intelligent person, you know that he entire idea of slavery is repulsive."

"In Matthew 18 verses 7 through 9, Jesus speaks:

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. - Matthew 18:7-9

This verse is repulsive on three levels:
It is repulsive because Jesus is such an idiot here. He is completely wrong.

It is repulsive because it demands that people maim themselves.

It is repulsive because the entire concept of “hell” is repulsive.

Jesus is an idiot. Cutting off your hand or gouging out an eye accomplishes nothing. If you are having a problem with unproductive behaviors, what you need to do is talk with a counselor or see a therapist. Self-amputation is absurd and repulsive. Jesus dispenses advice that is completely useless, and recklessly dangerous as well."

"Here’s another example of the Bible’s idiocy. Rebellious teenagers should all be killed as well. Here's what the Bible says in Deuteronomy chapter 21:

If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall ... say to the elders of his town, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. - Deut 21
Think about how many American teenagers need to die."


"The Bible wants us to kill most people in America. For example, the first commandment says, "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me." What are we supposed to do with everyone who doesn't believe in God? We are supposed to Kill them. Deuteronomy chapter 17 says that we are supposed to stone non-believers to death.

If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky… Take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. – Deut 17:2-7

In 2 Chronicles 15:12-13:
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. - 2 Chron 15:12-13

Deuteronomy 13:13-19:
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases…you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 13:7-12:

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods …do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. - Deut 13:7-12

What if you take the name of the lord in vain? Leviticus chapter 24 verse 16 says:
Anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. – Lev 24:16

The Bible is quite clear. We must kill everyone who does not believe in God. There are approximately 30 million people in America who do not believe in any God. There are tens of million more who believe in gods other than the God of the Bible. The Bible commands that we kill them all.

And keep in mind that the word of the Lord lasts forever, and the law of the lord is perfect.

Think of this as a Christian Jihad. The idea of killing tens of millions of people because they don’t believe in God is repulsive"


It's all there in black and white for you to research, read and decide for yourself about the stupidity that is the bible and that is god. You have to be mad to engage in such lunacy.

Who is Great?
Christianity is "not" a religion of rules? What are the "ten commandments" suggestions. Christopher Hitchens never said he was great, but he is awesome.

God wants to know
So we've heard a lot about how god must exist, and, even if he doesn't, nothing could replace religion to provide the moral absolutes we apparently need to survive. I've also picked up that many commentators here view atheism as a combative movement and therefore a threat. Some have even suggested that the Muslim world is more threatened by our secular leanings than our Christian traditions. Sure, that was the less-than-consistent D'Souza, but the argument appeared (and was lauded by plenty) here on Townhall.

In that vein, I have a question. Should we assist Turkey in replacing its secular government with one more centred in religous traditions? The arguments here seem to suggest that it would be a good thing.




Daneil C. Dennett
"So only atheists are in a comfortable position to cast the first stone, and Christopher Hitchens, in "God Is Not Great," relishes the role. He has the credentials, as both a combative journalist and a surprisingly erudite literary scholar, and he wants to break the diplomacy barrier and expose the preposterous presumptions and ignoble machinations that stain the history of all religions, bringing discredit that tends to get magnified over the years by a persistent pattern of coverup, veils of illusion , and denial of one design or another. These efforts at obfuscation are quite transparent under Hitchens' s merciless scrutiny, and the results are often quite comical. As Dana Carvey's Church Lady would say, "How convenient!" For instance, how many Christians know that " the Greek demigod Perseus was born when the god Jupiter visited the virgin Danaë as a shower of gold and got her with child. The god Buddha was born through an opening in his mother's flank. Catlicus the serpent-skirted caught a little ball of feathers from the sky and hid it in her bosom, and the Aztec god Huitzilopochtli was thus conceived. . . . Krishna was born of the virgin Devaka. . . . For some reason, many religions force themselves to think of the birth canal as a one-way street, and even the Koran treats the Virgin Mary with reverence ."


"And how many Muslims know that Uthman, some years after Mohammed's death, not only arranged the standard Arabic edition of the Koran, declaring many rival texts apocryphal, but "ordered that all earlier and rival editions be destroyed"? How convenient! And then there is the Hadith, the compilations of the words and deeds of Mohammed. Bukhari, who scrupulously collected 300,000 attestations several centuries after Mohammed's death, culled all but 10,000 of the most credible of these, some of which are quite evidently borrowings from the Torah and the Gospels, ancient Persian maxims, and the like. Still, in the great Ijtihad period of Islamic reformation in the ninth century, the learned scholars categorized many of these presumably high-quality attestations as "lies told for material gain and lies told for ideological advantage." Like sausage-making and legislating, the process of assembling the inerrant word of God is not always a pretty sight."

"Hitchens is an equal - opportunity embarrasser. "If Jesus could heal a blind person he happened to meet, then why not heal blindness?" He recounts the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary as a handy bit of recent (1851) "reverse-engineering" to deflect attention from some awkward conflicts in the Gospels' accounts of her life, and her Assumption as an even more recent bit of tinkering (finalized in 1951). The Mormons' Joseph Smith comes in for some uncomfortable exposure, but so do Gandhi, Mother Teresa, and even the Dalai Lama. Must we really be so mean as to pull these heroes from their pedestals? Why not let them continue to grow in mythic stature, as fine examples for us all? Because, Hitchens insists, religion poisons everything. Does it really? Hitchens makes no attempt to give an evenhanded survey of both the sins and the good deeds of religion. We have been told countless times about the goodness of religion; he gives the case for the prosecution."

Yes, I agree - god is not great but Hitchens most certainly is.

Here's the link to the whole article by Dan:

http://www.boston.com/ae/books/articles/2007/05/13/unbelievable/?page=1

cheap shot
Ray,

My point is that there are statements in the bible like this one that have been used by Christians to justify the oppression of those who were not in vogue with the current majority dogma at the tme. You can argue that it was taken out of context and was not the meaning of the author or the person quoted. But don't you think that God could have said a lot of things that were more clear cut so that what was said would not have been used to oppress anyone? After all it is the omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe we are talking about, right? I gurantee you most people of much simpler minds can come up with a better accurate, and more ethical bible than the one we have in very little time. I would venture that even you are capable of doing this.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.