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Sunday, December 30, 2007
Ken Connor :: Townhall.com Columnist
Come Let Us Reason Together
by Ken Connor
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After spending thirty years in the wilderness the "Christian left" is making its voice heard. From Washington, DC to Dallas, Texas, large conferences have been held in an attempt to politically mobilize these "progressive" Christians. Much can be said about this burgeoning movement, and much will be said in the coming months.

For now, let's start with this: as fellow believers, we should not be afraid to engage the evangelical left's ideas in a spirit of love. It would be a mistake, as we begin this dialogue, to view these men and women as "political enemies" rather than fellow members of the body of Christ. From the outset, we should insist that our discussions be grounded in our mutual love of Christ rather than our differing political commitments. Let Christ be the foundation upon which we all stand.

Many liberal evangelicals claim that the church, in its political thinking, has neglected a major aspect of Christ's concern: the poor and vulnerable. Their most cherished phrase is "social justice", and they say we conservatives have neglected it. Again, let's not dismiss this criticism out of hand. As I have written in the past, the Bible is unequivocal about our responsibility toward the poor. As Christians, we should not be shy about discussing our responsibility toward the "least of these," and we should think creatively about different ways in which we can serve them.

On the other hand, we are not simply talking about the responsibility of the church, but we are debating the role of government in crafting public policy solutions. As conservatives and liberals, we doubtless will find that our solutions to problems differ. When those substantial differences arise, it is the perfect opportunity to practice Christian charity as we calmly and thoughtfully explain the reasons for our differences. In the partisan and divisive political atmosphere of Washington, DC, let the whole world see how the Christians love each other despite their differences. Let the whole world see how we reason together, mutually striving to know the Truth in all things.

Perhaps liberal evangelicals will help remind the body of Christ that our greatest obligation is not to be financially successful or politically triumphant, but to love our Lord and our neighbor, even in public life. Perhaps they will also encourage us to develop new political solutions to the timeless problem of material poverty. As conservatives, our policy proposals probably won't include lots of major Federal programs because our experience shows that solutions rooted in the expansion of governmental bureaucracy often do more harm than good. However, we must not fall prey to the rhetoric of secular conservatives who put worldly financial concerns above all else. As Christians, we have a duty to address the needs of the poor, and it would be wrong for us to fall prey to a radically individualistic mentality. "Dog eat dog" is not a biblical phrase and "the survival of the fittest" is not a Christian concept. Our priority is the common good, with a special concern for those who have the least.

At the same time, perhaps there are ways in which we can help progressives look at things differently. For example, last year there was a meeting in Dallas called The National Conference and Revival for Social Justice in the Black Church. Speakers included Revs. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. While these pastors actually said some things with which we agree, they also made some unhelpful remarks.

Al Sharpton's speech is a perfect example. He criticized the black church for being too worried about what he called "bedroom issues": marriage and abortion. He thinks they should mobilize on social justice issues rather than be distracted by abortion. On something like this, we have an obligation to vigorously defend the unborn. Perhaps we can help progressive Christians like Al Sharpton understand that abortion is the greatest social justice issue of our time. Unborn babies really are the least among us—undeniably alive, undeniably human, and tragically exploited. When innocent children are dying, we cannot close the bedroom door and pretend that it does not concern us, that it is a private matter. Martin Luther King, Jr. said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." As Christians, we have an obligation to protect the weak and defenseless—born and unborn.

The emergence of a progressive evangelical movement affords a wonderful opportunity to foster a public discussion about the role of faith in civic life. Sometimes, it must be admitted, we get lazy in our political thinking. We know that at some point we thought through the reasons behind our positions, but maybe that was years ago. It is always helpful to remember why we believe what we believe, reviewing our old arguments to see if they are still strong. Even worse, sometimes we allow others in the "conservative coalition" to do our political thinking for us, even when they come from very secular starting points. Liberal evangelicals help us because they share our foundational commitment to Christ, yet they see political questions in a different light. As we actively dialogue with them about our political positions, hopefully both sides will benefit. Most importantly, let us pray that Christ will be glorified in the way we conduct our conversation.

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About The Author
Ken Connor is Chairman of the Center for a Just Society in Washington, DC.
 
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diff between Justice & Social Justice:
Social justice is outcome oriented.
Justice is rule oriented.
Social Justice would let me have about 627 strikes to Babe Ruth's 3, so we'd get an equal outcome.
Different rules for different players.
Which way is fair?

Credit & thanks to Thomas Sowell for the above, not me.

Ken Connor - Is caution not necessary?
Connor: "It would be a mistake, as we begin this dialogue, to view these men and women as "political enemies" rather than fellow members of the body of Christ."


But are they “fellow members of the body of Christ”?

Are we?

How can we know?


"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.[10] If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:[11] For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." (2 Jhn 1:9-11)


"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.[18] For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple." (Rom 16:17-18)


For anyone who would follow Christ, must we not take these words seriously?


Should we not apply them to ourselves first..

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?:" (2 Cor 13:5)

..and then to those with whom we would consider fellowship?


~~


Connor: “Our priority is the common good, with a special concern for those who have the least.”


Our 1st priority: “…love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.” (Mat 22:37b)


“If ye love me, keep my commandments.” (Jhn 14:15)


~~


Connor: “It is always helpful to remember why we believe what we believe, reviewing our old arguments to see if they are still strong.”


The wisdom of men changes with the direction of the wind, but the Wisdom of God is unchanging. If the old arguments were from His Word in the Bible, then those arguments are still strong.

Christian left not our political enemies
Many in the Christian left are our political enemies. I encourage you to visit their sites and see for yourselves the doctrines they do not believe that are vital to Christianity. Many do not believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. They do not believe homosexuality is sin, that abortion is murder, the list goes on. I have spent the last three weeks posting conservative Christian posts on a liberal site and it was very educational. Some of them are not only our political enemies they are also enemies of Christ.
Don

What Jesus really said
Jesus did not expect government interference in religious affairs. He considered Himself the leader of the "true" church while He was alive on Earth. His gospel did not change the Old testament, but fulfilled it. Jesus required that we have faith in Him/God, but that we also do works which glorified Him, meaning as well, to keep His commandments.

One of His most basic commandments is, "You shall not steal." Theft by government is as much theft to God, as by a thief on the street. Simply because one doesn't give to charity, but expects government to perform the charity he denies, does not make it charity. Further, expecting that your charity needs be met by government while also taking from others at your behest does not make the act a charitable one. Charity must come from the individual. Jesus did not preach social policy, but personal responsibility. Each person is responsible for others through their own charity, their own initiative, their own responsibility to give as they saw fit and within their own means.

This is where modern religious progressives have strayed as much as the fact that doctrine has been watered down, and Pagan rites inculcated into it (Christmas, Easter, etc.).

Conciliatory?
Ken Connor, is the direction of this article not already proven to be, at the very least, a dream? Considering the amount of invective exchanged by the left and right on forums just like TH is it possible for the right and left to come together in discussion?

It is my experience that this is not possible. Not once in all of the years I have discussed politics with "Christian Progessives" in my church has biblical teaching modified the positions of progressives. It is my experience that progressives in our church simply pay lip service to Christ's teaching while simultaneoulsy supporting the slaughter of the unborn, sexual deviancy, and notoriously socialist and communist ideas. They support the ideas of ideologies that are known to eliminate God from society.

It is my opinion that there is no such thing as a Christian Progressive. How does one support a political party whose focus has been to remove God from society and replace him with secular humanism. Christian and Progressive appear to be mutually exclusive terms.

Avoidance
I agree that we need to be able to talk with "Christian Progressives" and share their compassion.

Nevertheless, we must never lose sight of the fact that Christ's message and mission were never about the community. They were and remain about the redemption of individual souls.

To that end, He modeled a perfect life, taught perfect precepts and made atonement for individual sins.

Quoting Him to justify taking money from some to give to others, even the less fortunate, is avoiding the personal responsibility to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, and visit the orphan and widow in their need. It indicates a disbelief that the Gospel can change lives make this nation of individuals a caring place.

The great evil of Liberalism or Progressivism, or whatever they wanna call it this month, is the attempt to remove personal responsibility from the choices that make up our lives. Whether it be what we do with our bodies, our minds or our money, if we do not use them wisely of our own volition, without compulsion, there are rewards, both short and extremely long term. If you are compulsed to give money for the poor, charity has not a single thing to do with the act, and there is no value to your soul for it.

I have a responsibility to help those folks, to do what I can, give my money and perform my acts of charity because I choose to. Not because I fear for my life or freedom if I choose not.

As always, and every day, we all get to choose.

The first thing my brothers...
...in the Evangelical Left need to do, if we're going to open a dialogue, is to explain to me how they justify condemning me as "selfish," as having "neglected the poor," because I've chosen to do good works with MY OWN HANDS instead of deputizing the government to do it for me.

That strikes me as a COLOSSAL act of false accusation, an utterly UNCHRISTIAN position, and deeply wrong.

And after they've apologized for having falsely condemned so many of their brothers, they THEN need to show me the place in Christ's teaching where it says it's sufficient to deputize the government to help the poor with other peoples' money, rather than doing it themselves.

"Neglected the poor," my wrinkly old butt. *I* say the Evangelical left is a boatload of LAZY, THIEVING COWARDS for letting the government do their good works with other peoples' money rather than spending their own money and dirtying their own hands.

But I'm willing to hold the discussion. Any takers?

Mr. Connor
If the bugle gives an indistinct sound, how will anyone get ready for battle?


The NEXT thing my brothers...
...in the Evangelical Left need to do is explain why they have not kicked race-hustling, innocent-accusing thieves and liars like Al Sharpton out of the church, for pursuing a lifetime of personal power and wealth at the expense of innocent men, lining his pockets with the contributions of his followers, using his influence to shake down businesses for cash. I would find their movement so very much more credible if it were led by men of genuine moral character rather than race-hustling thieves.

And after that, they can explain why they've substituted the language and analysis of Marxists, who murdered hundreds of millions of innocent people, for the words of our Lord Jesus. "Social justice" is a neo-Marxist phrase, and it means what the Marxists call justice -- removing the wealth of capitalists and distributing it to their victims in the proletariat.

In this latter regard, it's no secret that Marxists targeted the Church in an attempt to coopt its message and turn it into a Marxist organ. Liberation Theology is barely concealed Marxism, and its language has been adopted wholesale by the political and religious left. So how can I accept as my co-laborers in Christ, those who have been so thoroughly deceived by false Christians? How is this different from accepting Gnostics as my brothers, or Pelagians, or Nestorians?

(Unrelated to this topic, please visit my political blog, "Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture," at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Thanks.)

Christian Left
Oxymoron. Scott you have written well. People can take upon themselves a label or "name", but they cannot redefine the name Christian. It is one who follows Christ as revealed in the infallable, innerrent Word of God. Many things are clear as to right and wrong(see 10 commandments and apply). Therefore those that hold to Christ and the Word will in fact stand for the morality of Christ.

Reasoning with Screaming Brats
*it is the perfect opportunity to practice Christian charity as we calmly and thoughtfully explain the reasons for our differences.*

What immediately came to mind when I saw this sentence was that pretty, pink-clad toddler I saw rolling on a muddy floor and shrieking her head off because in her mothers sighing words, she wanted Mom to take the toys off the shelves and open the boxes for her. There are simply times and places for calmly and thoughtfully explaining the reason for our differences (i.e. that those toys belong to the store and to open them and play with them would be wrong) and the time for jerking people to their feet and saying NO! NOW STAND ON YOUR FEET AND GET CONTROL OF YOURSELF!

Short version: you cannot reason with the unreasonable.

First you have to teach the opponent how to reason (screaming and flailing, name-calling, plugging the ears and yelling SHUT UP! etc. is not reasonable) and then you need to recognize the time and place for reasoning. After that, when the occasion is right, you sit down together and define your terms. If you get through that part, reason may follow. But there is a lot of groundwork necessary before you ever get that far.

Reasoning with Screaming Brats
*it is the perfect opportunity to practice Christian charity as we calmly and thoughtfully explain the reasons for our differences.*

What immediately came to mind when I saw this sentence was that pretty, pink-clad toddler I saw rolling on a muddy floor and shrieking her head off because in her mothers sighing words, she wanted Mom to take the toys off the shelves and open the boxes for her. There are simply times and places for calmly and thoughtfully explaining the reason for our differences (i.e. that those toys belong to the store and to open them and play with them would be wrong) and the time for jerking people to their feet and saying NO! NOW STAND ON YOUR FEET AND GET CONTROL OF YOURSELF!

Short version: you cannot reason with the unreasonable.

First you have to teach the opponent how to reason (screaming and flailing, name-calling, plugging the ears and yelling SHUT UP! etc. is not reasonable) and then you need to recognize the time and place for reasoning. After that, when the occasion is right, you sit down together and define your terms. If you get through that part, reason may follow. But there is a lot of groundwork necessary before you ever get that far.

Healthcare system anti-life?
Pro Birth or Pro Life?

MSNBC-Family sues insurer who denied teen transplant

17-year-old girl died hours after Cigna finally agreed to pay for new liver

The family of a 17-year-old girl who died hours after her health insurer reversed a decision and said it would pay for a liver transplant plans to sue the company, their attorney said Friday.

Nataline Sarkisyan died Thursday at about 6 p.m. at the University of California, Los Angeles Medical Center. She had been in a vegetative state for weeks, said her mother, Hilda.

Attorney Mark Geragos said he plans to ask the district attorney to press murder or manslaughter charges against Cigna HealthCare in the case. The insurer “maliciously killed her” because it did not want to bear the expense of her transplant and aftercare, Geragos said

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/healthcare-system- anti-life

a study in contrasts
In general, the Christian Left believes that the government can be an instrument of good, and rebalance the imbalance of wealth.

In general, the Christian Right believes in a government that can stop evil (however defined,) and poverty is a "lesser" evil.

Both ideologies are based on fear and pride, and fall short of what Christ, Moses and the prophets were trying to say. "Liberty" is not a political concept at all; it is a spiritual one. When you "love your enemy" you see yourself. Politics is the creation of false enemies, and democracy is based on the concept of political demonization. One only need to watch the recent ads to see that that is true. "Trust me, fear him."

Self-righteous hypocrisy (mutual fear) is the basis of every political party/candidate.

Maybe that will change some day, but it doesn't appear to be today. Still, this was a good essay. Anything that offers to reconcile is a good start.

There is, however, I believe, an even greater problem. The system does not work. It doesn't matter who is in charge (left, right, president, king, etc.) because the system is a vicious circle of fear, pride and greed. Creating a populace of faith, humility and generosity is no easy task. Most people cannot find the fine line beteween righteous and self-righteous; they give their own sins forgiveness, but not the sins of others. And they fear those who do not share their fears, so the politician who wins generally has the most fears in common with everyone. Whereas as those who pursue righteousness (Christ, Socrates, etc) are the most feared. All violence stems from fear and pride and hypocrisy. (Both physical and financial violence; the strong attack the weak and the rich attack the poor.)

peace
http://www.behappyandfree.com

Inkling_revival notes
"...The NEXT thing my brothers...
...in the Evangelical Left need to do is explain why they have not kicked race-hustling, innocent-accusing thieves and liars like Al Sharpton out of the church..."

Sounds like us asking the mainstream Islamics why they don't condemn the radicals of their faith.

joe_america
"Sounds like us asking the mainstream Islamics why they don't condemn the radicals of their faith."

Sounds like asking the mainstream republicans why they don't condemn the radicals of their faith.

Hypocrisy knows no bounds. Got a mirror?

Black Pastors, Gays, Christianity
It is disingenuous to say that when Sharpton spoke of the black church focusing on "bedroom issues" he was talking about "marriage and abortion and not mention the black church's attitude toward homosexuality. Black pastoral invective against homosexuality has been so vicious that Congress moved to call it a hate crime, and black ministers (we saw this on townhall) were quick to defend their right to bad-mouth gay people. The end result of this black pastoral attitude seems to me very un-Christian since it drives congregants out of the church. I have personally heard gay black people say, "I am in need of church, I am in need of folks' prayer, but I have been thrown out of my church". And they don't want the liberal white church that would welcome them---they want the traditional church of their childhood.

AudiR10
The ultimate behavior modifier for misbehaving kids is ignoring them. Young children have the gut level knowlege that they can't make it on their own and abandonement is a bedrock fear. Ignoring the child in the course of conduct you wish to reduce is often an extremely valuable tool. For example child A hits child B. I pick up child B, ask if they are OK, suggest doing something nice. by this time child A is usually saying things like He hit me first, i'm sorry, i won't do it again. Ignore all. When done during the formative ages, it makes the disapproving Daddy stare work right up until the peer group cuts in at about 12. My kids were not always expressing what angels they are, but not once did they do the department store tantrum bit. Where did i get this from? My dad did it to me when i hit my little brother when we were 6 and 4. My reaction was that he might like my brother more than me and i can still remember resolving never to chance that again.

Exactly, Savage
That's the way I did it...unfortunatley, the peers have reared their heads!! Groan!

To Theophobic
Maybe it all comes down to a phrase I saw on townhall the other day. A social conservative posted that while liberals do this & that & blah-blah, "a true Christian FEARS God". I was greatly tempted to respond to him that some of us think God is a pretty nice guy, not scary at all.

I (a liberal Democrat) come to townhall to try and understand what moves my conservative fellow-Americans. Here is a composite of what I read here, over and over and over and over and over:

"Poverty is the fault of the poor; they are bad lazy people who need to be self-reliant like wonderful me, and they will then become rich. If anyone is in need, and that includes children and the elderly and the disabled, tough. It's not my problem. I am entitled to everything I can get by my own labor and also by inheritance and chicanery. I have no responsibility to my fellow man or to community. (I don't need public transportation as I drive my own car.) Taxation is theft, and government intervention is Communism.

"The only social responsibility of business is to make more and more money, and there is nothing wrong with the CEO making 400 times as much as his average worker. He really needs that $150 million a year. He is justified in withdrawing promised medical insurance and retirement annuity from his workers because providing for them takes money out of his pocket. If the CEO can increase profit by spewing toxic waste into the environment then I say, three cheers for him. Profit is everything.

"And if anyone challenges what I believe, I am quite prepared to shoot him: I keep fifteen guns in my home. God bless America, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."


Steve
Your statement "All violence stems from fear and pride and hypocrisy" seems too inclusive when you use "all" and not inclusive enough if you confine your reasons only to fear pride and hypocrisy. Could you be considering fear as the basis for all negative emotion and action? If so, pride and hypocrisy are merely other faces of fear, and we arrive at a point i teach in Sunday school. Every action is either an act of love or an act of fear.

lilly
really is a stupid idiot. i mean really. she has never yet taken a christian view on anything, just a democrat view. and that is to take away almost all from the producers and give it to the"sit on the couch all day and watch tv" crowd. i can't see how she is a christian. she and her cohorts champion the killing of the the most innocent. thats what the nazi's did. so democrat = nazi. i can't see how she makes it to heaven. murder is very bad. and she is a committed bad person... so why should i break bread with the likes of her.

Nee
:-D Hang in there kiddo. The grandchildren make it all more than worth it. I teach and tutor part time in a Charter Public school. 7th grade math and science. Talk about a challenge. Some observations. Expect deferred gratification. The monkeys will cut off an arm in preference to admitting they learned something, or agreed with you, or even liked you. Then you run into them a few years later and they tell you what a great guy you are and how much they learned. And my kids do a pleasant amount of that too, now they are grown. Patience is crucial. Don't expect or try to "win" every situation. It is amazing how often when dealing with typical teen crazy escalation, the best thing you can do is put on a sober face and walk away. Few of us enjoy or deal well with uncertainty, which is what this creates. In those situations where instant reaction seems required, an explanation of your own motives tends to help. Another weapon i found useful was when i asked them to do something and got either an instant or a de facto no, i didn't pursue it AT THE TIME. I waited until asked for a favor, and then said no. I never had to wait as long as 24 hours. Only once, when requested to do someting i had been doing as a matter of course and coming up with a sudden and unexpected no, was i asked why. You don't do the little things i ask, why should i do the things you ask? Smooth and civil operations re-commenced immediately. One more tip. If you should ever feel you MUST do something out of duty or pure logic or to retain respect, stop, lie down and take a nap until the feeling goes away. If you see a course of action, no matter how thorny, that comes across as the best possible for all concerned, do it. Good luck.

okay
lily, you ALWAYS come to these boards to accuse and berate and enrage, and certainly NOT to "learn" (learning implies the acceptance of change and you are set in stone in your beliefs and opinions) while rendering up with each typed word how Conservatives do this or that or blah, blah, blah.
Now, on the topic, first I am reminded that Satan is a trickster and his false prophets, of whom we are warned, will not come as atheists to undo christians, but as fellow christians. There is but one "WORD", and it is neither left nor right, but only truth and passed to us in recorded history via the Bible (Old and New Testaments).
The Christ may have at times delivered the "WORD" to crowds, but was always addressing it to each individual within the crowd. It is a good work and deed for me to offer heartfelt and voluntary aid to those in need among my fellows, but that is not akin to a government (whether the one I live under now or ancient Rome) taking from me against my will to give that which is mine to another. The former act will be recorded in the book of life as a good work and deed under my name, but the latter will not.
The Christ was never concerned with worldly government nor with our material lives here (other than in our lives as we would effect other lives, absent force or coercion, for good), but for our lives in the world hereafter.

Common sense
Ken Connors Makes more sense than any conservative writer I've read. I will certainly sign up for his News Letter. With writers like him maybe there's still hope for the conservatives.

BEWARE!
Progressive or so-called liberal evangelicals is a full-out oxymoron. Their leaders have long abandoned the fundamental tenets of evangelicalism. They do not share our foundational commitment to Christ, for their Christ is NOT the Christ of the Bible.

Many of the younger religious progressives are currently enamored with cult figures of the Emergent movement. As Mark Driscoll observed, “…the emergent church is the latest version of [religious] liberalism. The only difference is that the old liberalism accommodated modernity and the new liberalism accommodates postmodernity.”

The Christian Left is not on the same page as evangelicals when it comes to “truth” or “love.” For the Christian Left, there is no universal truth (tenet of postmodernism) and their concept of love, so-called, equates to postmodern tolerance and acceptance.

Their motive for so-called “conversations,” is to gain accommodation and concessions from mainstream evangelicals. Beware!

Please follow the following link and read the article, particularly the section on The Relationship Between Love and Judgment. http://withChrist.org/boyd-rr.htm



to Savage99
Fear is not the same as pride, though they are related. For example, people are proud of conquering their fears. America is based on the fear of monarchy, for example, but what we have created in its place is worse than monarchy.

The rich are proud that they are not poor, for example. They have "conquered" their fear in their mind, when in reality they are completely enslaved to their fear of being poor. Jesus tells us to be poor (to break-even actually) so that we know the fears within ourselves. Once we know ourselves, there is nothing to be proud of anymore, and nothing to fear. Our greatest fear is our own reflection.

http://www.behappyandfree.com

Willing Dialogue?
Many posts have said that dialog between opposing religious faction is impossible and so they won't even try [some saying anyone with opposing view is the mortal "enemy"]. Paul Greenberg [a frequent contributor to TH] wrote recently about sitting next to an cross-wearing evangelical who asked [before their aircraft had taxied out the runway] whether Greenberg had "found Christ". Paul refused to acknowledge the evangelical and called for an attendant to provide him another "safe" seat. I have high respect for GB as a writer but I'd have quietly debated the legitimacy of "finding Christ"...but then I'm considered a liberal and therefore dedicated to the credo of "Come Let Us Reason Together". Another post says that Christ-worship [my convenient shorthand term] must always take precedence over charity toward others. A local woman recently left her aged and ill mother at home while she "worshiped" at an evangelical revival. When she returned to find her mother dead from neglect [she'd choked on the food left for her] she also cited the credo that Christ-worship must be given first priority. Somehow that view disturbs liberal believers and non-believers alike...and I think it would grossly offend "Christ".

TUNED IN - TURNED ON - DROPPED OUT

.....Mr Connor ...

.....I was following along OK until you mentioned the words Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton in the same sentence as Reverends and Christians ...

.....Neither man is an ordained minister and I doubt they are even Christian ...the Anti-Christs more likely ...they are race pimps who glorify and enrich themselves off the backs of the poor and ignorant ...

.....If you want to use an example OF someone who practices what she preaches then tune in to Star Parker and her CURE ...if Jesus walked the Earth today He would grab Jesse/Al by the scruffs of the necks and throw them down the stairs of the Church .....COLOSSUS

Giving "GIVING" to the giverment is.....

......one of the best ways to destroy Christianity.

Giving comes from the heart and does good to the heart, but it must be a personal sacrifice.

Sacrifice that is not felt as such is not sacrifice.

Give giverment the old heave ho and give yourself to any you can help without endangering your own life.

If each person who can would aid one person who can't, we would have a new society of trust and comprehension. Giverment is blind to true realties. People, on average, know when and how much to help.


baseballdoc
"Neither man is an ordained minister and I doubt they are even Christian"

Actually you are incorrect, as usual.

"...glorify and enrich themselves off the backs of the poor and ignorant"

Ever heard of Creflo Dollar? Eddie Long? Remember Rev. Ike? How about Oral Roberts? Jim Bakker? Jimmy Swaggert? Shall we even bring up Benny Hinn? Talk about pimps and hustlers!!!

"If you want to use an example OF someone who practices what she preaches then tune in to Star Parker and her CURE"

Please.

"if Jesus walked the Earth today He would grab Jesse/Al by the scruffs of the necks and throw them down the stairs of the Church"

So you know exactly what Jesus would do right? Wouldn't he wince in pain to see people like Falwell, Robertson, Perkins, Kennedy, Dobson, Hagee, Copeland, and Phelps represent him? How would Jesus feel to see his children continue to fight and kill each other? How would Jesus deal with a nation that claims to be a "Christian Nation", but has a long legacy of racism, violence, and poverty?

How would Jesus deal with you and your heart?

"

jim
one of the reasons i won't read paul greenberg anymore is he doesn't like conservatives. he bad mouthed rush limbaugh, calling him a rabble rouser. now he is offended by christians and wants a safe seat. well you can have the scumbucket... but mostly i want to say to you that there is no such liberal credo " come let us reason together". the left is filled with hate, and especially, for God and christians. their credo is "i will do what makes me feel good, and damn the consequenses". they have no real compassion, only gov charity to buy votes to stay in power, making slaves out of americans.

Addendum..

....Giverment takes away far more than it returns. It has no heart. It is bureaucratic and clumsy. It destroys the factor of personal participation which is key to Christianity.

Nothing good comes from an excess of giverment. The only good and safe responsibility that a good giverment can provide are totally public items like roads, bridges, the common defense and protection before the law, which includes punishment for law breakers.

Laws should only be the absolute minimum required for society to function. Today we have 500 times to many laws and that means less personal responsibility and more giverment, a deadly enemy of liberty and freedom.

Look at the constitution and bill of rights. Compare it to what other countries have and where they are constantly modifying and adding to those items so cherished and so ignored by giverment. Good laws are like our bill of rights. They are short, sweet and to the point. They do not need constant modification and encroachment by the judiciary.


oh, please, "jim"
are you saying that a daughter who goes to religious services while leaving her "aged and ill" Mother (who evidently was too "aged and ill" to attend services herself) should embrace guilt because her Mom was "called home" while she was away? What tripe! Maybe the daughter had prayed at that service for her suffering Mother to be "called home" and relieved of the toils and tribulations of this life! Her prayers may have been mercifully answered by a loving God.
If this lady had been out in the yard with her kid preventing him from doing something to harm himself or others and while outside her Mother had passed, would you assign to her the same guilt you intend in your parable? Her Mother went when it was her time to go, just as we all will.
My own Father suffered from Alzheimer's at his end and his end came at a hospice when he choked because his mind had forgotten how to swallow properly; he was alone in his room, but am I, and my sisters and other relatives, to embrace your assigned guilt because we felt he would get the best care in a facility outside one of our residences, or because one of us were not sitting a "death watch" 24/7/365? HA, perhaps in your world, but that world must indeed be a very tortured, self-condemning one, of wihch I desire no part.
No one knows the number of days of their life, but they are numbered.

Second Woodie144
I want to concur with Woodie144.

It is not charity when you force your neighbors to pay for 'your' charity.

I believe Christ commanded us as individuals, not as a society.

As individuals in a society, Christians can join together for the COMMON good at the expense of ALL, equally.

It might help those churches who believe this way to give up their tax exemption so they won't be silenced by the state.

Come Let Us Reason Together
I noticed the title and wanted to clarify...The words are taken from Isaiah 1:18. The original Hebrew is better translated,

"Come on now!
And let us sit down and
discuss your sins,"
says YHWH.
"Although your sins are scarlet in color;
They can be as white as snow.
Although they are as red as crimson,
They will be white like wool."

God invites His people to sit down and discuss/reason a certain issue and that issue is their sin.


Ralph E

I agree with you about Star Parker, and there are others in all races.

More Christianity and less proclaiming are needed.

Christians should walk softly and carry the big stick of their own good behavior.

You also agree that some of those named in the discourse are pimps and hustlers, don't you.??.

In fact, any of those who is totally active to the point of exclusion of Christianity itself is one of that kind, political and economic opportunists.


man ralph
you are such an intelligence challenge person.... even if al and jesse are ordained, they are not men of God. and neither are you for that matter. i do agree with you on swaggert. copeland, dollar, roberts, bakker and hinn, but you and your kind couldn't reach the boots of men like falwell, kennedy and dobson....we might have had racism, poverty and violence in america, so tell me what magnificient country are you thinking of that hasn't, mister smarta$$. and if Jesus was on earth today he would take al and jesse and you by the scruff of the neck and bang your heads together to knock some sense into them.

1 Samuel 8:11-20
God warned us about governments.

"11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.
19 ¶ Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
20 that we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles."

(Why don't we here this in any church lessons?)

Don't you WISH the government ONLY took 1/10?

truthseeker
Read John 11:35


charlatans
Any church that lets Jesse or all preach in their church is holding a school for fools

ralph
why. make your point here

Interesting dicotomy?
Why do Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton encourage abortion which kills more living people per year than almost all other causes combined except natural death from sickness and old age?

Do they think that their notion of the only justice of importance is that which is dealing with their ideas of social issues among the living? Are they still trying to find enough votes to get themselves elected to something?

In a perfect world, human eggs would not get fertilized without male & female partnerships; and abortion decisions would involve a united decision to proceed and accept the consequences in either case. Disagreement should be recognized as a strong encourager of breaking that partnership.

Governments and churches need to try to regulate the process, just recognize it for what it is- an unfortunate question to face. Perhaps we cna one day do better in churches to help couples learn to avoid the toughest question!

Lilly
If you are going to make up quotes, at least make up an author.

Progressive
and Christianity are an oxymoron.

We cannot reason together

We are immortal enemies.

Each of us sees the other as brutish unthinking louts without the ability to reason or see.

Many of the conservative right hold the Bible to be the inerrant word of God. It took me nearly 40 years to understand what that meant in totality. It is like a light bulb went on.

Although you call yourselves "Christians", you really aren't. A more accurate title would be Biblest. The bible is your faith and Christ is a subset of that faith.

I call myself a Christian because Christ is my faith and the Bible is secondary to Him.

Until we can put our "givens" aside, there can be no reasoning with one another.

Theological infants
Lilly, who comes here to lecture us, today chided a post she read yesterday in which someone observed that Evangelicals fear God:

"I was greatly tempted to respond to him that some of us think God is a pretty nice guy, not scary at all."

You did well to hold your peace, lilly. Yours is a favorite jibe of liberals (both theological and political), but if it's Christian at all, it's the babbling of a Christian infant.

A person who only knows "He's a pretty nice guy" but cannot grasp the feeling of standing naked and unconcealed before The Righteous Judge, with one's sins fully exposed, has not yet made even the first, small step toward becoming righteous him- or herself. In fact, it's this sense of having fallen immeasurably short that usually begins the penitent's journey toward knowing and loving God.

If you've never experienced it yourself, you can think of it as how a son feels when confronted in the act of stealing candy by a stern but loving father. You feel His love, but also the shame of having disappointed Him, and the knowledge that you've lost something immeasurably valuable that, despite His love and forgiveness, you can never have back.

There is a place to which mature believers eventually arrive when they're in real, deep fellowship with the Father, and know His love without any of the fear. However, a person who has arrived there would never, even for a millisecond, chide someone who's feeling the fear. The fear is how you get there.

No, lilly and her ilk are either infants who have barely even begun Christian growth, or (much more likely) they're not Christian at all, and are instead merely fools criticizing something of which they know not even the first elemental steps.

(Unrelated to this topic, please visit my political blog, "Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture," at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Thanks.)

Nanna

...you did it again. You out shined all our so educated posters. An oxymoron indeed; only a moron would not realize the difference.

Oh, the woods are full of fools (morons).

Even when making sense...
...certain liberals can't speak sensibly.

Bleeding Heart Liberal writes: "Although you call yourselves "Christians", you really aren't. A more accurate title would be Biblest. The bible is your faith and Christ is a subset of that faith.

I call myself a Christian because Christ is my faith and the Bible is secondary to Him."

First of all, for BLH to posit that all Christian conservatives fall into his first category is bigoted and defamatory. There are some who do; most do not.

In the second place, for BLH to imagine that no communication is possible, demonstrates that he really doesn't understand Christ as he claims. Christ never stopped trying to make contact with his religious enemies, and even sacrificed His life to redeem them.

See, BLH, I actually believe something like what you've articulated: I've seen believers make the Bible into their god, and it makes me cringe. But I've attended Evangelical churches for 30+ years, and while I've had some heated conversations with such people, I've managed to stay in fellowship with them. I do so because Christ has been patient with my theological errors, so I have to be patient with the theological errors of others.

A man committing idolatry is in some danger, even if the idol is something good like the Bible. But a man judging and condemning his brothers, like BLH does, is in even greater danger. All sorts of blasphemies and idolatries will be forgiven, but God forgives us the way we forgive others.

(Unrelated to this topic, please visit my political blog, "Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture," at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Thanks.)

inkling_revival
Thanks Pastor for that sermon. Lol!!!

Quick question: Is your relationship/fellowship with God greater than that of Lilly's?? What gives you the right to call someone "theological infants"??? Do you not believe that we are all infants in terms of realizing all that is God???

I get the impression that you actually think of yourself as somewhat "holier" or "more mature/correct/smarter" than others who worship the same God as you supposedly do. Why does this sound familiar? Didn't Jesus speak on this??

Lily
There is no shame in being poor.The only shame is wanting to have people give you money to help you while you do nothing to earn it

Brick Throwing
This article kinda strikes me as a random brick thrown through the window of the house of right wing media.

In other words, the window will be easily fixed and nothing will change. The call to action is so insincere its laughable.

No one has yet to take a poll to prove there are substantial more Christians on the right than the left. There are equal amounts of Christians on both sides.

Why the apparent gap in religious political involvement then?

Conservatives for a long time have pointed out that more than 60 percent of the people in this country believe abortion is wrong. Yet upwards of 66 percent of this country want Roe v. Wade to stand. Why the apparent discrepancy?

The answer to that question underlies the difference between the left and right when it comes to religion and politics.

Liberal Christians who believe that abortion is morally wrong for them personally do not feel their own personal religious beliefs should be the law of land. Christian Liberals believe if one thinks abortion is murder then don't have one, BUT, and here is the big BUT, liberal Christians do not believe their personal beliefs about abortion should spill over into the public square and force non-Christians or Christians with a different opinion to abide by their personal, religious belief.

That is the difference between left and right on the issue of abortion.

That is the big gap between liberal Christians and conservative Christians. For conservatives to convince liberal Christians to ban abortion then the argument is NOT whether abortion is murder, but IS whether a private religious belief should be national policy. Liberal Christians believe moral judgments about the soul and abortion are strongly religious and not universal.

It is insulting for Ken Connor to take the arrogant high road and assume he can instruct Liberals on something they already believe. It is equally disingenuous to avoid the BIG debate: private vs. public religious policy.

Facts is facts
Ralph Ellison sounds the multiculturalist bugle as he chides me for DARING to posit that I might understand spiritual growth better than anybody, particularly his liberal mate, lilly.

Of course, he didn't chide lilly for positing that she understood God better than those who were bringing up the fear of Him.

I have to conclude that Ellison finds it completely appropriate for somebody who agrees with HIS view to chide others as knowing less, but finds anybody who does so from a different point of view is being "unchristian."

I'm very sorry, Mr. Ellison, but whether you like it or not, I'm familiar with the stages of Christian growth because I've been through them, and because I've compared notes with others who have been through them and found their experience to be similar. I recognize the sound lilly's taunting as the sound of an infant who has not experienced what I have experienced. To say other than what I said would be to deny my own experience, and to deny what God has gone out of His way to teach me.

Thems are da facts.

(Unrelated to this topic, please visit my political blog, "Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture," at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Thanks.)

Overturning Roe
It's good to review whenever the abortion debate is promoted to understand why Roe came about to begin with.

If Roe were overturned today then 20 plus states have laws that will go into effect immediately making abortion illegal. All well and good, it seems on the surface, as abortion should be a state or people's right since it is not called out in the Constitution.

One problem. The states which outlaw abortion also make it illegal to cross state lines to get abortion. That makes abortion a Federal issue.

The question for you all who want Roe overturned to ask yourselves is this: are you willing to allow women wanting abortions to cross state lines? If not then that makes abortion a Federal issue by the fact that a person is crossing state lines to obtain commerce (service) in a different state.

I've often wondered if the people who argue states rights are willing to put their money where the mouths are and rewrite the abortion laws to rescind the crossing state lines sections. If not then overturning Roe will simply put the issue off for another day and yet another Roe like decision will be required because it is the Federal governments role to regulate interstate commerce.

Manifest ignorance
DrivebyPosting demonstrates his allergy to reading when he writes: "No one has yet to take a poll to prove there are substantial more Christians on the right than the left."

The political leanings of various religious groups are very, VERY familiar to those of us who pay attention to national politics. The fact that you don't know this, driveby, categorizes you clearly as an ignoramus when it comes to national politics.

Evangelical Christians have been polled regularly for political leaning. In 2000, about 40% of Evangelicals registered Republican, with 30% each registering Democrat and Independent. In the 2000 election, just over 60% of Evangelicals voted for Bush, and a little over 30% voted for Gore. When you ask about "Protestants" rather than "Evangelicals" (Evangelical will largely be a subset of Protestant, in case you're not aware), the split went 55% Bush, 45% Gore.

Catholics are a different bunch. Among Catholics, a larger percentage are Democrat. The Catholic vote splits evenly between conservative and liberal candidates.

The 2004 election showed Democrats farely poorly because of a perceived animus toward religion. This is why Democrats have been deluging us with tokens demonstrating their religious bona fides (which, to be frank, have been remarkably shallow.)

So, POLLS tell us that conservatives outnumber liberals among Evangelicals by roughly 2 to 1, but non-Evangelicals split pretty evenly.

(Unrelated to this topic, please visit my political blog, "Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture," at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Thanks.)

lilly - the church of "seems to me"
lilly: “It is disingenuous to say that when Sharpton spoke of the black church focusing on "bedroom issues" he was talking about "marriage and abortion and not mention the black church's attitude toward homosexuality.”


I can’t find the “black church” anywhere in the Bible…


We do find God’s ‘attitude’ toward sin in the Bible. Whatever the “black church” is, it sounds like they’re teaching the truth of God’s Word on homosexual conduct.



~~~



lilly: “Black pastoral invective against homosexuality has been so vicious that Congress moved to call it a hate crime, and black ministers (we saw this on townhall) were quick to defend their right to bad-mouth gay people.”


Congress is often “moved” to many irresponsible things…


Unless the truth of God’s Word is considered “bad-mouthing”, I suspect your portrayal of black ministers is inaccurate.



~~~



lilly: “The end result of this black pastoral attitude seems to me very un-Christian since it drives congregants out of the church.”


There are many members in the “church of seems to me”, but they can’t agree on anything for long, because they each have their own ideas about what ‘seems right’ to them, and it’s always changing.


Withdrawing from members who refuse to repent of sin only seems “un-Christian” if we have exchanged the truth of God’s Word for ways of the world that ‘seem more right to us’; but in doing so we are saying we know better than God.


The Christian thing to do is to follow the example given in Scripture:


“Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.” (2 Thess 3:6, KJV)


One who departs from God’s Word in the Bible is no longer following Christ. If he does not recognize his error and repent, he *must* be withdrawn from if that congregation is (or wants to remain) Scripturally sound.

Oh, PULLLEEEEEEZ
drivebyposting, displaying the routine and ongoing bad manners to change the subject from the article in question, posits the silliest objection imaginable to states passing individual abortion laws.

He observes (gasp! how original!) that different states will have different laws, and will have to find ways to address people leaving the state to get abortions in other states.

Why, shucks and golly, I guess federalism is a really, really bad idea, then. Nobody has EVER had to deal with that before. Dern.

You MOTHER PLUCKING IMBECILE!!!!! Don't you realize that EVERY GOD BLESSED LAW ON EVERY TOPIC HAS THE SAME GOD BLESSED PROBLEM????????????

My GOD, you're a MORON.

EVERY state law faces this problem. It does not render individual state laws unworkable. They manage to work it out.

JESUS, will you get a clue?

lilly - the church that Jesus built


lilly writes: “I have personally heard gay black people say, "I am in need of church, I am in need of folks' prayer, but I have been thrown out of my church".”


They are right; they are in need of church, and they are in need of prayer, and we ought to pray for them that they might return to the ‘straight and narrow’ path which leads to life (cf. Matthew 7:13-14).


“And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (Romans 12:2, KJV)


We must conform ourselves to the ways of the Lord, rather than insisting that the Lord’s church conform itself to our ways, or to the ways of the world. It doesn’t work that way...


If they find a church that will condone their sin, they may find earthly comfort there, but such a church cannot be a part of the body of Christ (cf. Ephesians 5:23, Colossians 1:18).



~~~



lilly writes: “And they don't want the liberal white church that would welcome them---they want the traditional church of their childhood.”


First the “black church”, and now the “liberal white church”; earlier it was the “church of seems to me” and now it’s the “church of I want”; so many different churches, but so few examples of such churches in Scripture…


The Lord’s church is not a Burger King. We must disabuse ourselves of the notion that we get to “have it our way”.


Instead shopping for the ‘church of our choice’, why not seek the church that Jesus built, the one described in the Bible?




Puh-leeze
Genuine conservative Christians know that there is no conceivable way in which they can or should work with, or even talk to, so-called 'progressive' or 'leftwing' Christians. ONe thing real Christians know is that Christianity is the religion appropriate to political conservatism. Christianity and conservativism are two sides of the same coin, united in their certain knowledge of God's truth and will, and thus believers must be firm in their opposition and hostility to 'liberal' Christians. Christian conservatives know that the stakes in this controversy are as high as man can possibly imagine, and so calls for political discussion, especially coming from a religious conservative, are unwelcome and unnecessary.

RALPH ELLISON

.....You are using mis-direction by changing the discussion from the subject at hand to others who are guilty of the same misdeeds ...

.....I don't support any of those white "Elmer Gantry's that you brought into the discussion ...a phony is a phony whether white or black ...

.....I know that Jesus threw the moneychangers out of the Temple so I assume he would treat any religious charlatan the same way ...BTW ...what Universities have conferred Doctor of Theology degrees on either Jackson or Sharpton? ...

.....How will Jesus judge me? ...I don't know since I have taken life in the defense of my country ...but I have asked for absolution and the path to redemption and salvation ...so I guess I will have to wait until I stand before Him to find out .....COLOSSUS

...postscript: Your Foreskins are about to get peeled back by the Cowboys second string ...coach Gibb is such a genius that he kept his best quarterback on the bench until an injury to the incompetent starter forced his hand ...Oh well! Wait till next year ...

Liberal Christians
I don't think there is such a thing as a true, card carrying liberal who is a Christian. They are too different in their beliefs They may think of themselves as Christian, as opposed to Muslim or Hindu, but that is using the word Christian in a different sense. Calling a true liberal a Christian is like calling a Mormon a Christian. They have too many fundamental differences even though they use many of the same words. Or like calling a Scientologist a Christian. They are pretty much mutually exclusive. I wish it were not so, but alas, it is! I know some really nice people who are liberals or Mormons or Scientologists. I don't believe they are Christians. But I still like them.

Liberal Christian ?

They are referred to as "Opportunists".

Why can't Christians reach agreement?
All of us are imperfect in our understanding of God and the revelation of Truth given us through the prophets, Jesus, the Apostles, and the Holy Spirit. Some of us are more imperfect than others. This should call us to humility and seeking after God's will rather than choosing up sides. A big source of mistakes and differences seems to arise from what WE conclude are sins or not. The only relevant opinion is that of God. We should not approve what God disapproves. Unfortunately, approval of what God hates (all sins) is common among the family of God.

Perhaps it would be better to work to make God's House more like God wishes it to be. We can influence government by voicing opinions and by our votes, and it would be great if we were in better agreement, but our charity is best given through being members of Christ's Body.

StevenS
Are you kidding? Same reason blacks can't reach agreement or New Yorkers can't reach agreement. We're all human, that's why.

Sic 'em, Lilly!
I doubt that most of the religious conservative...at least those ON THIS SITE...can "get their minds around" the concepts you broach, and they reject out of hand much of your counsel...but you keep the hornets nest in a constant state of confused agitation...and minds are changed in tiny increments without folks recognizing the subtle change within themselves. You get a lot of abuse but you've a keen mind, an iron backbone, and steel nerves. Sic 'em!!!

baseballdoc
Good for you. God will judge you. Just know I would love to be a star witness for the prosecution.

As for the Redskins, check the scoreboard. Seems as if you were proven wrong once again.

inkling_revival
I'm glad God has taught you many things.Would you care to explain those stages? Are they unique to you? Are they universal? Are they the only way to achieve true holiness?

Also, it still seems as if you are just going after Lilly for the fun of it. Seems as if you totally ignored Lilly's point(which was a good one about a loving and just God) because of some personal vendetta.Not very Christian.

Coming from a fundamentalist background, I was taught to fear the wrath of an angry and jealous God if I were to step out of line. God lead me on a difficult and trying path away from fundamentalist/evangelical Christianity. I'm closer to God now than I ever was. Is this not a spiritual path?

As you said earlier, To say other than what I said would be to deny my own experience, and to deny what God has gone out of His way to teach me.

Those are my facts.


Scott
You don't actually believe homosexuals can become heterosexuals through prayer/laying of hands right?

RALPHIE

.....You are right ...the Cowboys didn't show up ...maybe they will get another chance in the playoffs .....COLOSSUS

baseballdoc
"You are right"

As always.

jim
you can have lilly and all her wisdom. i'm sure she makes perfect sense to a liberal

"Liberal Religious", no way to go
The so-called "liberal religious" hide behind peace (at any price), income distribution (at ever higher levels) and lots of guilt-tripping while living in their own moral "gray zone".
They have no problem killing the unborn, praising moral indecisiveness as a virtue and living lives by their own "fuzzy boundaries" morality.
No thanks. The country has enough moral midgets without the liberal churches that wonder why they are losing membership.
Its no wonder to me. Their real religion is modern liberalism = secular socialism.

MR. CONNOR....MY NEW HERO
Mr. Connor, I salute you. It's beyond me how anyone, particularly a Christian, could find fault with this column.

Bleeding Heart Liberal
Have you met Christ?

How do you know about Christ except what is written down all those centuries ago? I mean, Christ hasn't had a public appearance in one thousand nine hundred seventy-seven years.

Jim Writes:
Sic 'em, Lilly!

This just tells us you must smoke from the same pipe with the same stuff in it, that she does!


http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html
Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just won’t matter!
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NO MORE HOLDING OUR NOSE AND PULLING THAT LEVER!!
VOTE FOR A REAL REPUBLICAN!! NO MORE RINO’s!!!


i am liberal because i am Christian
the idea always circulates on these threads is that liberals can't be Christian and it is just nonsense.

just as there are conservatives who are atheists
there are liberals who are Christians.
just as there are conservatives who are pro-choice
there are liberals who are pro-life.

at least 51 million americans voted for that hated liberal john kerry do you think they all think and act alike.

the biggest myth is that all liberals think and act alike.
it is not true of conservatives and it is not true of liberals.

i am pro-life
but am also pro-life when it comes to capital punishment which most conservatives are not.

there is either a right to life or there is not.

if you ever go to a church that is generally liberal such as united methodist, american baptist, presbyterian, and church of Christ you will find they sing the same hymns, pray the same prayers and hear the same sermons.

i believe in the soul
i beleve in faith and the power of prayer
i believe in the father, son and holy ghost.
i believe in John 3;16.

For God so loved the world, (not just conservatives) that he gave his only begotten son that who so ever (not just conservatives) shall believe in him will have everlasting life.


we are brothers in Christ and a conservative who does not understand that is sadly lacking in Christian knowledge and values.

God is concerned about your soul not your political affliation.

dbz77

according to mitt romney Jesus Christ put in an appearance in ohio in the 1830's and told joe smith to start a new "true"religion.

As if the poor were really the issue
The gulf between liberal and conservative Christians is much, much wider than just over how to care for the poor. As a Christian, I am truly want to care for the poor. Although, I don't think the government is good at doing anything, if this were the only issue between me and a "liberal Christian" then I'd happily compromise on the issue and pay extra taxes. That just isn't the case is it? Our tax money doesn't really help many poor people. It goes to fraudsters, abortion clinics, and condom promoters. Some of it does feed the poor, but more of it goes for things that I believe are extremely anti-Christian. So not only do we have to pay taxes that are supposed to go to the poor, we then have to take more money out of our pockets to actually feed the poor after the government wasted it.

And BTW, sometimes the best thing you can do for somebody is to force them to take care of themselves.

sir aaron
and some of the tax money that conservatives support i find extremely anti-christian.

the tax money spent on executions.
the tax money spent on pre-emptive war.
the tax money spent on corporate welfare.

but when it comes down to it, Christianity is about the soul and the following of the teachings of Jesus Christ not about where tax money comes.


sir aaron
your last comment may be true of adults but do you feel the same for children who are not at fault for being born into a family that is poor or a family who made bad decisions.

is it Christ like to condemn them because of their parents.

religiouslib / Re: the church of Christ



religiouslib writes: “if you ever go to a church that is generally liberal such as united methodist, american baptist, presbyterian, and church of Christ you will find they sing the same hymns, pray the same prayers and hear the same sermons.”


I am a member of the church of Christ, and I can assure you (and everyone else) that it most certainly is NOT “liberal” in any sense of the word as you seem to be applying it.


I believe the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek texts of the Bible (both OT and NT) are the inspired Word of God, and the Bible is our only source of Authority. No man-made creeds, doctrines or traditions that cannot be reconciled or harmonized with (and not contradicted by) God’s Word in the Bible.


If you are referring to a denominational church like the “United Church of Christ”, or some other church, please do be more specific.



Very well said, Ken!
Well said Ken. we must not berate or ridicle the beliefs of other Christians who differ with us-but on TH that is happening a lot!-esp with somne of the regularly published TH columnists who *claim* to be christians while writing angry, sneering, name calling editorials-like Ann Coulter who is probably the most malevolent example.

cornpone
thanks for playing. Glad to see that there is not too much for you to complain about. You know, being the religious person you espouse to be and all. Glad to see you also do not get into the bashing of any folks, vice Ann Coulter of course.

Ken....
Amen and Amen!

Real Red Letter Believers
It is a shame -- and a disgrace -- that these people have coopted Christ's words for their own agenda.

A blog exists that takes politics OUT of what Christ said --
http://www.redletterbelievers.blogspot.com

Its about authentic living -- following what Christ said in our everyday lives. Check it out.

come let us reason together
"Come let us reason together , though your sins
be as scarlett, they shall be as white as snow;
though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool " . ------- Isaiah 1:18

"A Cry From Without!"
__There is not any possible way that, a religious community which embraces left leadership, or progressive principles, can even be associated with the name Christian. Many, so called evangelical Christians, while embracing the Word, are not of the Word. While the prominance, and glory, they have achieved may be related to the Words message, that glory is from without. Members of their body, faithfully "tithe the mint", which in turn gives them personal gratification, and the ability to say they have done their part. Then, after the service is completed, they walk out the door briming with pride that they hane done their part, as Christians. NOT! They entered without, and exited without, without walking in the footsteps of the Word! Those from without love the progressive left, because they imagine its embrace fulfills the Lords Word in assisting the least among us, when, in fact, it does not. The appearance is there, on the outside, and they are comforted with that. Returning to their personal world, and driving right on by the straight path. With blinders on never questioning why, what or where, their donations are spent, unless being personal affected. They could care less, as they have what they want, and knowing there is a program out there to fix problems so they do not need to stop. HYPOCRITES!

Progressives…

Is this not a word for those who differ from the orthodox? They used to be called heretics. The political progressives will not submit to the Constitution; the Constitution is what they say it is.

The religious flavor of progressives sit in judgment over the Bible. They pick and choose what they like and ignore the rest of Scripture. They have made a god in their own image. We need not repent of sin. Their god accepts us in our sin. We are not in need of grace. Their god will accept our works as righteousness, as long as our works are more than our sins. They can do without the Christ revealed in the Bible.

Other than a captive to his circumstances men are good and will do good given the opportunity. With the proper education and government programs the kingdom of God is possible here on earth. Men are not lost and in need of redemption. Christians are not strangers and aliens in this world. Christ didn’t mean it when He said, ‘My kingdom is not of this world.’

What other doctrines are to be sacrificed for the sake of a hollow unity? The first priority of the churches of Christ is to preach the Gospel. This is the divine means of grace whereby sinners are converted and brought into the kingdom and are quipped for the work of the ministry.

A converted man is a free man. Given liberty he will work toward supporting his own. He will be ready for every good work. The churches of Christ will take care of their own and help those in need.

The confiscatory tax policy that supports the welfare state usurps the role of the churches. ‘Men do not live by bread alone, but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’

Job Number One
Valiant,

Great points. The big thing is, when "Christians" establish priorities, is it primarily focused on material welfare, or on the eternal souls of people? Providing for material needs is certainly important, Jesus did for sure. However, he certainly did not stop at that point. No, he spoke much about heaven and hell.

The "progressives" would have us meeting every material need, but ignoring their spiritual plight, it would appear.

The one area I disagree with you is that the Body of Christ's biggest purpose is to evangelize. I believe, from the preponderance of scripture, is that the biggest responsibility is to (1) connect with Christ and be conformed to his likeness, and (2) cultivate and nurture the believers. After all, what is the greater problem -- not enough people hearing the Gospel, or compromised people who think they are heaven bound after their "decision" who bear no fruit, live for selves, and have no actual connection to the divine?

Ekstasis "connect, and conform"
__Your post brought about an example that came to me. If man was created in Gods image, we can definately not argue about the image of Jesus, or image of his life. So we definately cannot argue that true Love in the Words message is to, Connect, and Conform, to its image. Talk the talk, and walk, the walk. Thanks brother.

Christian?
Christian; follower of the teachings and words of Christ. John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me." Matthew 10:32 "who so ever shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father." Christ, The son of God, born of a virgin, came as a man, preached and taught the message of salvation, was killed on a Roman cross, and rose again as he took on all our sins, past present, and future. The Bible is His holy word, sin is sin, abortion is murder, homosexality is a sin, not helping the poor is a sin, stealing is a sin, lying is a sin, most of all not putting God first is a sin..THis is pretty simple stuff. Just calling yourself a liberal or progressive Christian is no excuse for ignorance of the truth. Problem is many of these folks who say they are Christian push the secular progressive agenda..

califson
and some Christians push a conservative secular agenda.


i have to keep coming back to the same issue.

some conservatives do not understand that just as there are conservatives who are atheists there are many flavors of liberals.

most Christian liberals are pro-life.
most Christian liberals are against gay marriage.

some conservatives have been taken in by the biased conservative media which wants to paint all liberals as believing and acting the same.

the idea that 10's of millions of liberals all believe the same is not logical or rational.

who represents conservatives?
does larry craig?
does mark foley?
does ted haggard?

absolutely not,

but then why do some conservatives pick the most extreme examples of liberalism and then claim ALL LIBERALS think or act like that.

i repeat, God is not interested in your political affiliation, he will not deny or admit you to heaven based on whether you are liberal or conservative.

and if you believe he will, you really need to talk to a clergy about this.












































If only
... we could all keep in mind the following:

1. Do unto others that which you would have them do unto you. (Matthew 7:12) Everyone: stop calling your brothers names. It’s not an offense to disagree with someone. That’s not hatred. It IS an offense to call names, and pretend to see the hearts of others as God sees them.

2. Do not be overcome by evil, but OVERCOME EVIL WITH GOOD. (Romans 12:21) If this didn't work -- if it weren’t possible to overcome evil with good -- God wouldn't have told us to. What a very hard time we have believing that, and acting on it.

3. Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on DISPUTABLE matters... Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls... Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. (Romans 14:1, 4, and 13)

It’s ENTIRELY disputable how much or whether Caesar should spend on relieving the poor. The only thing we know for sure from the Bible is what we individuals ought to do. Liberals have NO business saying conservative Christians are mean-spirited, hard-hearted, and un-Christian for not approving of government relief programs. Conservatives have no business saying liberal Christians are weak-minded, weak of faith, and determined to promote vice and sloth because they do.

Paul acknowledges that there are things that are disputable for Christians. We will not agree on everything. But we are not to judge each other, in disputing over them. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. To his own master -- the Lord -- he stands or falls.

Using facts in a dispute is not judgment against another. Issuing warnings about how things are likely to turn out is not judging another. But saying that other people literally aren't Christians is judging others. Impugning their faith, motives, and sentiments is judging others. Let’s all just stop it.

sempervigilans
thank you for your comments.

we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and although we may differ on some issues, the core of all of our beliefs (liberal or conservative) comes from Gods holy word and the living example of Jesus Christ.


to religiouslib
I certainly agree with your post. There are so called conseratives who think they are justified in bombing abortion clinics. Not so... The truth of Christ is there for everyone, I dont care what you call yourself, if you have accepted Christ as the son of God and savior of the would we are brothers in the faith. It has nothing to do with what political party you support. However I do think the dems have certainly gotten off the track somewhere with the likes of Pelosi, Kennedy, Reid, Boxer, and the Clintons. Somehow I have to think America will have to answer for 40 million dead babies, and the distruction of the family unit..Perhaps we already are...God bless

califson
the dems sometimes reflect the values of Christian liberals just as the repubs sometimes reflect the values of Christian conservatives.

i find my values generally more in agreement with dems than repubs but do not always support their stances.

but you are right that Christians have more important work and values to affirm than simply supporting one party over another.

CALIFSON, He is not savior of the world.
__That's the Goracles job, and all others with faith in the world. Those of the world are of the left, and progression of life which ends in death. It's like watching everyone scrambling for the life rafts of a sinking ship. Unable to walk on water, they must swim for a buoyant, man made object, to keep them afloat. Christ is savior, a gift for those, who's prosperity is not of the world, but of creations prosperity. Just as abortion, as a method of birth control, is not of ceations prosperity. Instead it is slight of hand, by those of the world, to limit any possible responsibility it may cause them. For a true follower of Christ, to even vote for someone who supports this abortion agenda, is an apostacy to the Word. Grin and bare it, for there is no argument that would defend, or support, anyones vote for a pro-abortion candidate. Expecially if they claim Christian heritage!

There will always be liberal Christians
Christians are only human, after all. They will make mistakes. They will be lead astray. They will have their God-given capacity for Reason seduced with Emotionalism and Rhetoric. It happens.

The deepest trap I see fellow Christians fall into, however, is ignorance of the Principle of Subsidiarity. Catholic Social Justice teachings, for example, state that policies and acts of Social Justice must always come from the lowest level of moral governance possible - starting with the Individual and then moving up to the Family and then the Parish.

The idea that efforts of charity and social reform must be implemented at the level of National Government is completely contrary to the Principle of Subsidiarity. It is thus a complete violation of Social Justice Theory.

There is plenty of room to engage in the craft of statesmen over the role of Local and State governments in various charitable enterprises. The role of the National Government, however, should clearly be almost non-existent. The National government lacks both the competence and the moral clarity to engage in Christian Charity. Attempting to abdicate one's duty as an Individual to Charity by delegating it to the National Governments is not Christ-like in any way and it violates His teachings.

This is perhaps the most grievous self-inflicted wound of Modern Europe, and a mistake the Christians of the United States of America should not be in a hurry to repeat.

califson
you said conservatives are not justified in blowing up an abortion clinic. so let me ask you, were we justified in closing hitler's death camps, hanging his minions and him if we had caught him.... now, please tell me the difference in an abortion clinic and a nazi death camp

You Must Help the Poor...
And the Bible tells you how!

The Bible does NOT say that you should dig into you wallet and give the poor person a monetary handout.

What the Bible DOES say is that you must leave the corner of your field unharvested... so that the poor can come and gather... for themselves! That is, they still have to work for a living.

Expound Truth, mlund
Thanks for bringing up apostasy. The truth has to hurt sometimes.
Mlund you are right, Christian charity starts with the individual. Well said. Drives the truth right to the heart. I'm glad some people actually listen to the homily in church. It strengthens my faith that there are good people out there.

TO Truthseeker
I can see your point and the comparison, however the situation is totally different. There has to be social order. Hitler was a vile and evil dictator and we were at war. As badly as I hate them, and as wrong as we all know it is to spill totally innocent blood, these evil places and doctors are within the law. We must pray that someday we can put a stop to the one thing that has had more to do with the moral down fall our our nation than anything. That includes drugs, alcohol, adultry, and all the rest. May God have mercy on us as we just go about our merry way and walk on the graves of 40+ million murdered babies...Still we must obey the law. God has those little souls in his hands..

the law, califson
its not a law that the legislature imposed on us. and they are the only legitimate law giving body. roe was imposed on america by 5 left wing activist judges who made up a right to an abortion.... so, if the supreme court doesn't have to obey the law why do i have to.

Be led of God
Truthseeker, I understand your feelings in this situation. All I can say is to be led of God in what action you take. Do we obey an unjust law? That has always been the question. God will judge those who harm children. Jesus said "It would have been better for tham that a mill stone was placed around their next and they were cast into the sea." As Christians we can voice our objections, write our congress, even march in protest, but I still believe in the American system. God is the final Judge, not some nut case like Ginsburg. Walk on brother...

One Issue Not Mentioned
One very key issue that was not mentioned is one that has been brought out into the open by Ron Paul: our position on war and foreign policy. I am certainly not a pacifist. I understand that there is a time and place where our government must respond in force to protect our people. It is a power granted to all governments by God for the purposes of executing justice. I should also add that on most every other issue I would be considered "conservative".

However, there are many brothers and sisters in Christ like myself who take issue with our current policies in the Middle East. The issue of whether or not the Iraq War may be debatable, but I take serious issue with our current stance toward Iran. It seems that we have forgotten that Muslims are humans as well, created in the image of God. However, the attitude of many seems to be that they cannot be reasoned with -- that we should not even try to pursue peace in the region. Much of this, I believe, is due to our lack of understanding of their culture as well as our own sinful ways that have contributed to the problems in the region.

While examining our walk with God, we need to reconsider all aspects of our political decisions. What Biblical justification is there for a military action in the Middle East? How do the admonitions for our personal life translate into public office? Are there principles that apply to an individual that should not apply to our government? Why or why not?

These are serious questions that I feel we have neglected for too long. As a result, we have had a string of "Christian" presidents whose actions have done little to promote the name of Christ and in many cases have greatly damaged our testimony in the world.

you've got to be kidding, khomar
bah humbug to your post. we have had one christian president since ronald magnus and that is our current pres. bush II. i think history will judge bush II favorably. we have no damaged testimony. we are the country of goodness and freedom. no other country comes up to our bootstraps in that regard. we owe no one an apology. you don't like war, fine. lets hope for your sake some one will defend our kids before they are made slaves... and to address the animals in the middle east. when the love their kids more than they hate me, well thats when i'll sit down and break bread with them. til then they get the business end of my rifle.

Agreeing with the article - to an extent
I agree that Christians ought to embrace and dialogue with congregants from liberal denominations just as we ought to embrace and dialogue with all non-Christians. Yes, I wrote that! I know Christians who are members of liberal denominations. In almost all cases, they found Jesus as Savior outside of that denomination and for reasons of family or familiarity decided to remain where Christ is not preached. I know this because I have embraced and dialogued with congregants from liberal denominations. I've met a lot of non-Christians that way, but ever so often, I've met a Christian and in talking with them, I've discovered their reasons for remaining. Some hope to bring Christ to their denomination, usually citing a proud history of evangelicalism back in "the day".

So, talking with members of liberal denominations is a great idea for evangelicals. There's a saying in Proverbs that a fool can actually teach us something from time to time. There's absolutely nothing wrong with listening to what people outside of the Church have to say. We might learn some things about ourselves that will move us in a Christ-like direction.

Having said that, there must be some basis for discussion or we're just going to talking past one another. I know this too because I've already had some of these talks and have experienced the frustration of a lack of a common theological language.

Commonality
Here is where the dialogue breaks down. Liberal denominations stopped preaching salvation through Jesus Christ a long time ago. Often they teach something like baptism regeneration where you are basically getting your salvation through the choice of your parents and the application of "magic words and ceremonies" as an infant. No personal challenge of faith is required. Just show up for church sometimes. Bible? Where is that pesky 600-pound family Bible? Read it? Well, no. The pastor/priest tells us what's inside of it. Besides, God is love and really, if you just love those around you, you can't go wrong.

Why did Paul tell the Galatian churches that if even if he returned to them preaching a gospel different from the one he had preached to them previously that person should be completely excommunicated from their fellowship? Don't listen to them! Don't listen to me, Paul, unless I'm agreeing with what I previously said! Why was that so important to Paul? To Peter, who cautioned the same? To the other apostles?

They didn't have the Bible as we have it today. They were writing it. But they had already taught the churches the doctrines of Christianity and they wanted them to believe only that. One reason they wrote the letters they wrote was to remind their followers of what they had previously been taught.

So, yeah, the Bible is the cornerstone of Christianity. My inner compass can be tweaked by anything from the guy who cut me off on the expressway to my grumpy coworker and I see very few inner compasses that are anymore stable than mine. The Bible, however, doesn't change. It's there to deny me my heretical moments and to assure me when I am indeed on the right track with God.

So, the center of any discussion with members of liberal denominations has to settle that issue. Until a common language can be established, I'm doubtful that true dialogue can be accomplished.

Semperfi/par, funny about...
...the truth, and sometimes it's got to hurt, it's a bi-ch when it's forever. Some might think it's only for a moment in time, and laugh it off. Got some news for 'um, our bodies livin' to die, and we take our baggage with us. That precious memory we have, and the actions that fill it up, are logged in a permanent data base, energy bank. A life energy bank that's going to get plugged in when the body can no longer support it. Sparks are going to fly, or the current is going to equalize, and be absorbed, with the mother board. Semper fidelis y semper paratus brother!

An example - bedroom issues
Nobody really argues anymore that Martin Luther King wasn't an adulterer. He cheated on his wife and the FBI taped it. I'm not writing to denigrate his accomplishments as a civil rights leader, but to point out a "bedroom issue" that is a block to a true dialogue between Biblically-based Christians and members of liberal denominations. I don't know if MLK repented of his sin, but the Bible does say clearly that he committed a sin in cheating on his wife. Therefore, if he was indeed a Christian (which I'm going to assume for this discussion that he was) he was required by his Lord to repent of that sin.

Now, some members of liberal denoms would insist I am incorrect on that. They'd have all sorts of excuses to justify infidelity, but I'd have to keep coming back to the Bible. "You shall not commit adultery" is pretty clear and if you take it in context with the rest of the Bible, you quickly realize you don't have an argument in support of sexual sins from the Bible. Outside of the marriage bed, sex is a disobeying of God's commands.

Yet, how do liberal denominations find commonality in this discussion with Biblical Christians? Do appeal to feelings and social justice actually destroys Christianity, which is based upon what Jesus and the apostles taught, which is found in the Bible. To say that "bedroom issues" aren't important is to essentially say that the Bible has no place in a conversation about God. God inspired the Bible, so basically you're saying that God hasn't got a voice in religious discussions.

See my dilemma? If God isn't permitted to speak in a discussion among self-titled Christians, who really should be permitted to speak and how do we call ourselves Christians if we don't follow the teachings of Jesus as laid out in the Bible?

truthseeker
"we have had one christian president since ronald magnus and that is our current pres. bush II."

I remember the press making a big deal about how Clinton/Gore was the first Southern Baptist presidential ticket. Nearly every candidate who ever runs for president claims to be a Christian. Like it or not, the world considers us a Christian nation, so when they see the filth in Hollywood or dishonest politicians, they associate that with Christianity.

"we owe no one an apology. you don't like war, fine. lets hope for your sake some one will defend our kids before they are made slaves..."

No, instead we can let our government do that by taking away our constitutional liberties all in the name of terrorism. NO ONE should LIKE war... EVER. War should only be used as a last resort. It is an ugly and evil thing.

"and to address the animals in the middle east. when the love their kids more than they hate me, well thats when i'll sit down and break bread with them. til then they get the business end of my rifle."

This is the kind of rhetoric that led to black slavery, the crusades, the holocaust, and any number of atrocities throughout history. Do you know any Arabs personally? How do you know that they don't love their kids? How can you even say such a thing when America slaughters 1.5 million unborn babies EVERY YEAR? We sure have a strange way of showing OUR love for our children.

Consider the contrast of scripture with your sentiment: "But God demonstrates His love toward us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Can we not at least show kindness to those for whom Jesus gave his life?

you know what khomar,
your a twisted logic liberal nincompoop....lets start with muslims strap bombs on their kids and send them into an ice cream parlor to blow up innocent people. tell me how they love their kids. and don't blame me for abortions, blame the democrats...clinton/gore are baptist/catholic in name only. they are really minions of the devil. and sorry hollywood represents the left not christians. get a brain....name me one constitutional right you lost by someone else fighting the war on terror. can't, can you. just left wing rhetoric. and if conservative don't fight this war the muslims will come here and try to kill my family. they'll burn in hell first.... and this kind of rhetoric leads to slavery, crusades ect. why cause you say so. i don't think so. remember your a liberal, you've never been right in your entire life...and remember its your side that kills a million babies a year not my side....one last thing. almost every war going on right now has muslims trying to kill non-muslims. so i need to understand their culture- why.

aurora watcher
you say this

"Liberal denominations stopped preaching salvation through Jesus Christ a long time ago."


and exactly how did you come to that conclusion?
what research can you show that backs up this assertion.
how many liberal churches have you visited to base this assertion on.

there are thousands of churches that you would consider liberal denomination encompassing millions upon millions of Christian liberals.

every Christian liberal i know (and i literally know thousands) believes that salvation only comes through Jesus Christ.

you have come to a conclusion based on some sort of sweeping generalization from some other source, certainly not from your personal experience.

sure, there may be a Christian liberal church here and there that does not meet your standards for what you consider "proper" Christianity, but by and large they sing the same hymns, read the same scripture, hear the same sermons, and consecrate their lives to Christ and his teaching just as you do.

to condemn millions of Christian liberals on the basis of a few is simply not logical and wrong.

i pointed out earlier that there have been Christian conservative pastors who have sinned in horrible ways.i.e. haggard

do i think they are representative of all Christian conservatives?

so than why do you take the worst examples of Christian liberals and think that they are reflective of all Christian liberals?

i grew up in a Christian liberal environment and have not known more God fearing, humble, good hearted people in my life.

you make think what you want but i saw God in these people and know that they are "real"
Christians even if they do not meet some litmus test you want to set up.

of course, you understand, that God will be the final arbiter, not you.


but religiouslib
those same "liberals christians" support candidates that support abortion so by osmosis they support abortion. also how about all the things that dems believe that the bible says is wrong. so they may be saved but they are not doing God's work

truthseeker
"your a twisted logic liberal nincompoop"

You know nothing about me. I am a strong conservative who has voted consistently Republican for the past two decades. I must say that I regret my decision to do so as the Republican Party has become too liberal, and I am strongly considering switching to the Constitution Party. I am not a Democrat and have never supported their views. I am pro-life, for gun rights, for states rights, against homosexuality, and for a limited, fiscally responsible government (ie. no welfare or nanny state).

WE have failed on abortion because after six years of a Republican congress and a Republican president, we still have just as many abortions today as we did under Clinton. Did you know that there was a bill presented that would have defined life beginning at conception and placing the responsibility of defining the laws to govern the rights of unborn citizens to the states thereby overturning Roe vs. Wade? Our Republican congressmen did not vote for it, and millions have died as a result. And don't think that the Republicans are innocent of any wrong doing. They have been stealing just as much from Americans as any Democrat.

As for Constitutional rights I have lost, you need to understand one thing: once you have experienced the loss of these liberties in person, it will be too late to do anything about it. Laws have been passed that, if used for evil purposes, could completely enslave any group deemed a threat to the government. Consider what Judge Andrew Napolitano had to saw about this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3k3JNRTVI0Q

truthseeker
If you truly believe what you tag line says, I strongly encourage you to step back and reconsider your views of foreign policy and the world in general. We have been trained in the past two decades to hate the liberals, hate the homosexuals, and hate the Arabs. Trust me, I know. I used to listen to Rush Limbaugh on a regular basis, and I was a big supporter of Fox News.

Then my wife gave birth to a premature baby, and I stepped out of the media world for two months. When I came back, I was shocked at what I discovered. I realized that Fox News had become a soft-porn site that spewed forth hatred and division at every turn. I realized that Rush Limbaugh was constantly bashing "liberals" without even considering that they are human and intelligent too (though, admittedly, I believe they are misguided about many things). I found about a man named Ron Paul, and as I listened to him speak, I realized that the positions I had held for so long were based on faulty premises. They were based on the idea that the ends justify the means, and they served to divide and not unite our country.

I realized that I needed to rethink my world view in line with scripture -- including who I voted for and why. I needed to remember that my first job is to love the Lord my God with all of my heart, mind, and strength, and to love my neighbor, be they liberals, Arabs, or even terrorists, as I love myself.

Yes, there are evil people in this world, but Jesus came and died for evil people. Namely, he died for you and me.

The Bible commands us to love our enemies, and even when we must execute judgment on evil men through our government, it should be done with fear and trembling recognizing that God has saved us from their fate.

Micah 6:8 "He has shown thee, oh man, what is good and what the Lord requires of thee. But to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God."

religiouslib
I was raised for the most part with a very conservative background both politically and religiously, but I was fortunate enough to attend a private high school that had students from a wide variety of denominations. I grew to have a deep respect for the "liberal" Christians as I saw that they often had strengths in areas where the conservatives did not.

I like to think of the two sides as dogmatics and charismatics. The dogmatics are very strong on doctrinal accuracy, Bible interpretation, and striving for holiness. The charismatics strive to be loving and spirit-led, not holding as much to traditions. They emphasize love and compassion.

The fact is that both sides NEED each other. The charismatics are more likely to drift scripturally, and the dogmatics are more likely to be cold and unfeeling. We need to worship in spirit (charismatics) and truth (dogmatics). Of course, I am oversimplifying things as neither side has a monopoly, but in the many churches I have visited, this is the general pattern that I have seen.

I don't believe the church was ever supposed to be divided into denominations for this very reason. We need the full body with all of its diversity to function as a healthy church body.

maybe i was too hard
on you khomar, but some of your opinions sounded like we (america) are the proplem and not the muslims. they are the ones blowing people up and cutting their heads off not our side... now i agree that many republicans are lefties(snow, hagel,collins ect) but there is nothing i can do about those states. and thats why we can't get anything meaningful passed. also dem filibusters. i support fred thompson, but i'm only one vote and there a lot of uninformed people in this country not to mention the just plain idiots. if we organize we can figure out how to usurp the authority of the supreme court. the constitution doesn't make the 9 black robed judges the defacto rulers of america. but we have weak leaders who have no backbone. so, got any suggestions.

i don't
buy your argument that dogmatics as you call us are cold and unfeeling. i just not naive.

truthseeker
I did not say that dogmatics are cold and unfeeling, but if there is a tendency to go in that direction. I know many dogmatics who are very warm and loving, but I have also seen those who have grown to love studying the Bible more than they love God or their neighbor. As a result, their heart grows cold. Think of the church of Ephesus (Rev. 2:1-7). I freely admit that it may be too much of a generalization, however. :-)

"but we have weak leaders who have no backbone. so, got any suggestions."

This is why I have become drawn to Ron Paul. He is calling for a return to the Constitution as our rule of law. He also is very strongly pro-life -- in fact, he was the author of the bill I mentioned above. The problem is that we Christians have allowed ourselves to be misled into thinking that we need to vote for the lesser of two evils, or that we have to vote for what the media tells us are the front runners.

I strongly recommend checking out Chuck Baldwin's blog. He is the pastor of Crossroad Baptist Church in Pensacola, Florida. He is active with the Constitution Party, and is a strong supporter of Ron Paul. While I do not expect you to necessarily switch to Ron Paul's camp, Baldwin's writing may help you understand those of us Christians who do support Ron Paul.

I think Fred Thompson is also a good candidate, and I find it sad that his campaign is doing so poorly. However, I like Ron Paul's firm commitment to the Constitution and fiscal responsibility. Ron Paul has a strong Christian testimony, though he does not like to talk about it in the political realm because it is so often abused (think Huckabee).


Baldwin link
I forgot to copy in the link:

http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwina.htm

khomar
you have shown yourself to be a person of thoughtful religious and moral character.

we may disagree on certain issues but your comments show that you have captured the spirit of Christs teachings and i admire and respect you for that.

having been a Christian for 50 years i still have a way to go before i can be truely Christ like in all aspects of my life but with Gods help and faith i may get there.

may God bless you and keep you

religiouslib
Thank you for your kind words. May God bless you as well.


reply to religiouslib and aurora watcher
Religioiuslib needs to understand that a conservative Christian like aurora watcher will never acknowledge that any sort of Christian other than herself is a real Christian. When she writes that liberals don't believe that salvation comes through Christ, what she means is that anyone who has the moral and political views, along with the more liberal religious views, of liberal Christians can't properly be considered to believe in Christ, no matter what such people think about their own beliefs. She knows better than they do that they aren't real Christians.

I'll put the matter differently. Aurora watcher and conservative Christians like her know precisely whose names are written in the Book of Life and the names are not those of liberal Christians.

I'm also willing to bet that aurora watcher denies that Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Coptic, or any other sort of Christians are really Christians as well. The word "Christian" means, for conservative Christians, believers who agree with them on all things.

So, religiouslib, no amount of explanation will sufice to change aurora watcher's mind. She knows what she knows, and she knows it with the authority that some of us Christians think rightly belongs to God alone.

I have heard
people in the past define abortion as a "bedroom issue" but it is not. This kind of thinking is a smoke screen. Abortion is not about sex. Abortion is about the killing of the preborn. Abortion does not take place in a bedroom. In most cases it occurs in a clinic, in a sterile environment with professional killers in attendance wielding knives and other instruments of death.

Keep this in mind the next time someone tries to distract you from the true nature of abortion.
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