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Sunday, September 23, 2007
Ken Connor :: Townhall.com Columnist
Big Government is the Enemy of Freedom
by Ken Connor
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Let's face it. Americans love things that are big. We love big houses, big cars, and Big Gulps. We supersize our meals, our TV sets and even our golf clubs (Big Bertha has revolutionized the game of many a duffer). Athletes take steroids to make themselves bigger, and people who are not satisfied with their natural endowments resort to surgery to bolster their appeal. After all, in America, size matters.

Regrettably, however, our love affair with all things big appears to extend to government. Government spending relative to GDP has grown dramatically in the past century—from 5.5% to 28.9%. Federal deficits have risen from $50.7 billion in 1940 to an estimated $9.3 trillion in 2007. In the past decade, total state spending increased a whopping 88%, from $628,634,000,000 to $1,184,146,000,000. Clearly, the era of big government is back.

When it comes to government, however, smaller is better than bigger and you get more with less.

More what? More freedom.

There is, you see, an inverse relationship between the size of government and the amount of freedom we enjoy. As government expands, freedom shrinks. As government shrinks, freedom expands. Less government, more freedom—it's as simple as that.

Historically conservatives have understood the relationship between the size of government and the scope of our freedoms. Hence, conservatives have typically been advocates of smaller government. Somewhere along the way, however, they seem to have lost their bearings. Under President Bush and the Republican controlled Congress (most of whom campaigned as "conservatives"), government spending reached new highs and the size of government grew dramatically—so much so that a new phrase was coined, "big government conservative."

Some describe a "big government conservative" as an "oxymoron." Others, less charitably, just use the phrase "moron." Regardless of the descriptor that is used, the result is the same—those who promote the growth of government do so at the expense of freedom.

Here are a few points we do well to keep in mind as we reflect on the size of government and the scope of our freedoms:

First, money is the means by which government sustains itself. Money is to government as food is to people. The size of government is directly proportional to the amount of money available to it. The more money government has, the bigger it gets. If we want to shrink the size of government, we must reduce the amount of money available to it. There is no other way to shrink the bureaucracy. This is the same reality that those of us who are overweight must face when we want to slim down. We simply must cut back on our intake. It is an inconvenient truth. Exercise is helpful, but portion control is essential.

Second, "security" is one of the most effective cards bureaucrats play to justify the growth of government. All of us want to be safe, and the first duty of government is to provide for the safety and security of its people. As citizens, however, we must be vigilant to restrain unwarranted encroachments by government on our liberties. Cameras shadowing our every move in public places, wire taps on American citizens, retrieval of phone records on millions of law abiding American citizens—are these actions truly necessary to protect our security? If we want to remain free, we do well to have a high index of suspicion about each and every encroachment on our civil liberties. We should make the government justify each and every action that intrudes on our freedom. We should not just accept the government's explanations at face value. Benjamin Franklin got it right when he stated, "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Dwight Eisenhower was even more pointed when he said, "If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care, and so on. The only thing lacking…is freedom." These two men paid a high price to secure our liberty. As beneficiaries of their sacrifices, we should attach no less value to our freedoms than they did.

Third, freedom flourishes in the sunshine. Unwarranted secrecy subverts it. Therefore, claims for the need for secrecy on the part of government should be closely scrutinized. While there are, without a doubt, occasions where secrecy on the part of government is warranted, a healthy skepticism is in order. The "state secrets privilege" has been invoked by government to compel the dismissal of certain lawsuits in order to avoid the revelation of sensitive information. Since the privilege was first recognized by the courts in 1953, it was invoked by the government only 64 times in the 48 years before September 11, 2001. In the last six years however, the Bush Administration has invoked the "state secrets" privilege a record 39 times. This is 5 times the rate of previous administrations!

In a recent case under consideration by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, the Deputy Solicitor General, Gregory Garre, argued that the courts ought to immediately dismiss any case when informed by a department of the executive branch that it may endanger state secrets. The court would do well to reject such a position. Judges ought not simply "rubber stamp" decisions of the executive. Our history demonstrates that government will not hesitate to abuse the "state secrets privilege" to conceal wrongdoing by its functionaries. Remember the Pentagon Papers debacle where the government sought to suppress information of illegal government activity by invoking the state secrets privilege? And who can forget the secret surveillance conducted at the direction of F.B.I. Director, J. Edgar Hoover (the government's number one G- man)? The dossiers he maintained as a result of those illegal, but secret, activities were used as part of a blackmail scheme against other government officials to perpetuate his position in office.

So America, be careful what you wish for. Bigger is not always better—especially when it comes to government. As President Ford noted, "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."

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About The Author
Ken Connor is Chairman of the Center for a Just Society in Washington, DC.
 
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Pertinent to invasive government...
--
"The essential characteristic of Western civilization that distinguishes it from the arrested and petrified civilizations of the East was and is its concern for freedom from the state.

"The history of the West, from the age of the Greek polis down to the present-day resistance to socialism, is essentially the history of the fight for liberty against the encroachments of the officeholders."

..-- Ludwig von Mises

When America
Was still a Constitutional Government and not the socialist monstrosity of today, the Federal Government was kept in check by the Constitutional limits of gold and silver as being the only legal tender for the payment of debt.

Article I
Section 1. All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives

Section 8. The Congress (not a central bank)shall have power to .....

To coin money(not print), regulate the value thereof (not the Fed), and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;(not print it)


No capitation, or other direct, tax shall be laid(OR progressive tax on labor), unless in proportion (not 60,000 pages of undecipherable tax codes)to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

Section 10. No state shall ......

make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts.......
----------------

Lets see,Congress is no longer in charge of the value of money, private bankers are.
We no longer use gold and silver as legal tender and coin money, we use printing presses and paper fiat money.

We do not pay direct taxes in proportion to the census, and is why the census was taken at the beginning and next 150 years, up and til the 16th amendment.
[The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.]

Which reads in direct conflict with Article 1 Section 8.

And is the reason we now have the most convoluted tax system in the world, and its massive confusion (by design).

And why we have the present fiat paper money system that has bankrupted the richest nation on earth.









Without the Keynes socialist
Fiat paper money system, the Federal Government would not have the money to keep expanding and charge it all off to our labors with the illegal and unconstitutional Marxist progressive income tax.

Once gold was removed, the door for big government was thrown wide open

"Big Government Conservative"
"Under President Bush and the Republican controlled Congress (most of whom campaigned as 'conservatives'), government spending reached new highs and the size of government grew dramatically—so much so that a new phrase was coined, 'big government conservative.'"

There's no such thing as a big government conservative. The reason the Ds control the Congress now is that the RINOs there didn't give the conservatives anybody to vote for, so they voted with their butts.



The liberals (Lamocrats and RINOs)
scream about Bush's authoritarian method of governing and yet it is the liberals who have consistently pushed for bigger and bigger government.

Liberals take heed. Government can NOT take your freedom if we keep it small.

A Life of it's Own
At a certain point any beauracracy takes on the characteristics of an independent organism intent on surviving and growing regardless of why it was brought into being in the first place. Attempts to control this organism will ellicit the same response any organism demonstrates when attacked and beauracracies view any outside interference as attacks.

When attempts to control this organism are implemented it strikes back in a manner that will create the most pain possible. The Federal government is a classic example of a beaureaucratic organism. Screw with it's funding and it will bite you in the *ss. The Dems have no interest in controling it and the RINOs only pretend to.

It will be really interesting to see what it does when the money available for it to continuing growing decreases as entitlement payouts increase. I hate interesting.

HUNTER 2008

Securing the border and enforcing the law is the only way we get to keep our rule of law, our representative Republic, and our Constitution. If citizenship becomes meaningless, this will no longer be the United States of America.

The primary responsibility of the U.S. government is to protect the territorial integrity and people of this country. They have completely abdicated this responsibility. Both parties have been complicit in this. We are being told it is not possible to control our borders, enforce our laws, and thereby control our destiny as a nation. Hogwash. We are being sold out by corporations intent on importing workers for jobs that can't be exported with the taxpayers paying the true costs, financial and human. If we act like sheep and don't stop the inundation across our borders, we will lose our country without a bleat.

http://www.gohunter08.com

Ken's message is clear ...
Conservatives are adopting the media line about the runaway spending during the GOP's control of our government when they ought to be concerned about the runaway loss of our freedom.

Bigger government ALWAYS means the loss of our freedom. Those who trust government, any government, to "do the right thing" are fools.

I am looking for candidates for office who are committed to cutting the size of government. So far, there are few - Republican or Democrat.

If a candidate doesn't understand that the big issue in 2008 in the U.S. is freedom, then I won't waste my time or money on him/her.

Spending is not the only
way big government is taking freedom. States are still involved with takings and owners are not winning even after a SC ruling. The left has taken the courts and one of the hinge pins of freedom, private property, has been taken.

http://www.thestate.com/local/story/180676.html

WHY WE HAVE BIG GOVERNMENT

.....Because the politicians created it and convinced the public that they needed it ...

.....Maybe three quarters of the Departments and agencies in Washington are Un-Constitutional but since they work in favor of the politicians they will never be challenged ...

.....However when a law slips through that works against the politicians best interests ...they will challenge it in a New York minute ...

.....A good example of this is the line-item-veto that Clinton signed into law ...he even got to use it a few times ...but faster than a jack rabbit in heat ...a group of Democrat Senators led by Robert Byrd challenged the law in Federal Court and put it on a fast track ...the Law was ruled to be Un-Constitutional and was overturned ...

.....The Senators were not about to give up the power of their pork without a fight .....COLOSSUS

Pot Calls Kettle Black!
Breaking news! Some posters on TH accuse Republicans of being the author of big government!

These Liberal Posters are advocates for the proposed UHC, Amnesty for Illegal Aliens and continued support for programs like: Medicare/Medicaid/Welfare, No Child Left Behind and other big-ticket government handouts. In spite of these unconstitutional programs, it is the Military establishment that is in their cross-hairs.

Obviously, National Defense should take a back seat to Bail-outs for irresponsible corporations and folks who over-extended themselves with mortgages that they couldn't really afford, and making sure that we don't demand accountability for all those dollars handed out by the fist-full in the aftermath of Katrina.

There is plenty of blame for big government to go around. Some might even say that the courts have gotten involved by upholding ill-considered mandates in the name of "environmental regulation", upholding illegal and unconstitutional seizure of private property, and paving the way for government subsidized abortions and stem-cell research.

Republicans AND Democrats can share the blame for Big Government.

Who said it?
Who was it that said the death of our government would be at the hands of an electorate that figures out it can help itself to the largess of the public coffers? We keep voting for the pork barrell kings (both parties).

Big Government Republican SHOULD be an oxymoron. Instead (to quote my favorite movie)
"He's an OX and a MORON!"

Since no one else has...
...I will state the obvious. Only Ron Paul has promised to reduce the size of government if elected. His voting record proves that he will keep his word and do so. Stop whining, Congressman Paul is electable, if we elect him.

To those that support Hunter:
I like some of Hunter's positions, but he, and many of his supporters are too narrowly focused on the immigration issues. Immigration, legal or illegal, is only a symptom. Sealing the borders and deporting the illegals may be a palliative but the disease will rage on.
There is much that a president can do to de-power the Federal government. Mr. Paul has stated his intention to do exactly those things, Mr. Hunter has not. I choose freedom for all, over any personal agenda I may have.

Conservatism
Neo Conservatives are the exact opposite of real Conservatives. They are Socialists in conservative clothing. TRUE Conservatives love this Nation, its Constitution, its dedication to the unalienable rights of its inhabitants and the rule of law. The NEO Conservatives love control, power, fear mongering, fiat currency and are the lackeys of the NWO. They HATE liberty, free thought and our Constitution. They have placed us one heartbeat away from a Police State. Bush, Cheney and the whole administration are a passle of Neocons posing as Conservative Republicans. They feed on fear like vampires do on blood and are doing their best to get the Republican Party to commit to war without end. Their greed, arrogance, incompetance, cronyism and sheer stupidity will all but guarantee the female Lenin and her Communist cohorts a victory come November 2008. When that happens we will really be toast. Connect the dots.

The time has come fore REAL Conservatives to practice what they preach. We are responsible for this mess, it is up to us to clean it up.

They will destroy this nation. If you believe what you write, join us in helping elect Dr. Ron Paul, the ONLY candidate out there who wishes to restore our Republic.

Phylo
I know you have heard of politicians lying through their teeth; heck most of them do it the second they take the oath of office! peso george would still have my support if not for the border issue and the national debt issue. But he is showing his true colors and i do not like them AT ALL. I am going with Hunter in the primary, I hope he gets it. I just hope and I think he is, one of the more honest persons running!

An interesting point Mr. Paine.
I wonder what parallels could be drawn between George W. Bush and Alexander Kerensky.

Big de-mob-ocracy
The Supremes have voted 5-4 numerous times to amend our Constitution, and we have degenerated from a limited-government republic (Article 4, Section 4) into a huge invasive democracy. Now, the left and right wings of Control Freaks Unanimous fight constantly for the 50.01% which, in an uncontrolled democracy, will allow one of them to turn one more of our rights into a priviledge and eliminate it. "Big Government...Poor Grandchildren" http://www.poorgrandchildren.com

Question for Ron Paul Supporters
I have looked at Ron Paul's web page on several occasions.

He points out his ideas, but there is very little there that says HOW he wants to proceed to implement them. What he sees as priorities, and what kind of time-line he has to accomplish his radical changes, especially in the area of foreign policy, which is the POTUS' primary job.

My question is, if he DOESN'T get the nod from the Republicans as their candidate...Will he, and the rest of you that support him, throw your support to the REP candidate, or will he be a third-party spoiler that will further split the vote and usher in an easy win for Hillary?

Division of the people
Is the avenue to conquer.
There is no cure in choosing up sides and fighting one another over which man to elect.

That is the strongest method for those in government to stay in power.

This is why the Founders set up in the Constitution
the only method there is to stop men from abuse of power.

The money powers of their day also used fiat paper to steal the wealth of the people, and continued to fight the US Constitution to change the powers of finance giving this power back to the bankers.

And we still do not listen and accept the present unlawful and illegal fiat paper money system that is the root of all evil in America today.

Just as it was at the beginning.
Big government cannot be controlled, UNTIL we stop the money powers who are the true rulers of all of us and our government.

Take the power back
From government and place them on the leash and US Constitutional Foundations.

They are NOT going to give us anything but heart ache and monthly bills.

No single man on this planet can make something straight out of something as crooked as the fiat paper money system the bankers have gained control over all of us by.

Fact of LIFE

Talent Scout
Ok...how do we recover the horse after it has already been stolen and the door is off the hinges? Is there a candidate out there that will fix the Federal Reserve?

HUNTER 2008
I know I will vote in the primary for Duncan, and if by some chance he don't get it, I hope Fred does, and next would be lets see, which rino would I vote for? Hmmmm tough question!

Nice column Ken!
I've been complaining about the big government "conservative" CINOs for some time, as have many other real conservatives.

For me, the canary in the mine shaft was last year's federal restricting of Internet gaming. I should be allowed to play poker on the Internet; I don't see this as a federal issue, nor do I see anything in the Constitution authorizing federal prohibition (regulation is authorized; prohibition is not). How sad that CINOs are so quick to expand federal government to enforce their ideas on others.

You CINOs did a good job of taking over our party, but your victory will be short-lived. Either real conservatives will retake the party, or the party will be condemned to permanent minority status.

Ron Paul has
Been fighting the Federal Reserve System since the first day he was elected.
-------------------

mrs Paddy writes: 11:43 AM
Talent Scout
Ok...how do we recover the horse after it has already been stolen and the door is off the hinges? Is there a candidate out there that will fix the Federal Reserve?
-----------------------

Well, it might take we all getting on board placing our priorities in their proper order.

Its always said our Government is divided into three separate and equal branches, Executive, Legislative and Judicial.

UNTRUE!
This Republic has FOUR divisions of power, and the FOURTH is the RULERS of it all.

We the People
The only way we have lost our power is cause we do not TAKE it, and stop the illegal and criminals in government who walk all over us and TAKE from us our GOD GIVEN Rights.

They do this by dividing us all up between the two party system and "we the people" cede to their methods and fight one another over which criminal we elect.

Calling them criminals is no doubt seen as harsh and immoderate.

Yet if they continue to operate against the laws and US Constitution, and we do not call it criminal, then we have KINGS in office and not Servants of we the people.

GW BUSH is acting as a King and not an elected servant, whose FIRST RESPONSIBILITY IS TO INSURE DOMESTIC TRANQUILLITY!
He is disregarding every single law on the book on immigration and FRAUD.

He is abetting crime with his refusal to ENFORCE THE LAW.
Making himself a King who has the right to decide which laws are to be enforced and which are to be ignored.
Money powers he works for controls our borders, and is the ROOT of all evil in America.

We must Unite with one voice and demand the US Constitution be the LAW.
Remove bankers from the chain of command, and the fiat money system they have gained control over all of this nation by.

Forget Duncan Hunter
Read his website issues page, at http://www.gohunter08.com/inner.asp?z=4 . He's just another big government CINO. It seems he has a federal spending program for everything he likes, and federal prohibition for everything he doesn't (i.e., just a Democrat, but with different issues).

Here's a gem:

"I also believe Internet gambling has become a problem as serious as traditional casino gambling. Law enforcement agencies have indicated that this activity serves as a vehicle for money laundering activities that can be exploited by terrorists and organized crime. It is for this reason that I cosponsored H.R. 4777 (Goodlatte-VA) which will amend federal law and bring the current prohibition against wireline interstate gambling up to date with the Internet and other new technologies. At the same time, the bill will provide additional tools to law enforcement to combat illegal gambling."

LOL! Last time I checked, this was properly legislated at the state level. And, your "issues" have all been conclusively proven to be red herrings. You want to ban Internet poker simply because YOU don't like it.

Sorry Duncan....no presidency for you.

To TheEngineer
Good thing I am no conspiracy nutjob, because I would think some (LIB-RINOs) might have joined the Republican ticket just to run it into the ground, because they sure seem to be doing a good job of it!

HUNTER 2008

Want limited government?
Vote for Ron Paul!!!

Doc
It almost seems that way, doesn't it?

It really telling when conservative columnists have to write articles reminding other conservatives that big government is the enemy of freedom. Wow!

Two ways to restore this to a REPUBLIC
Armed resistance to tyrants
OR
Education on who is to be removed from power.

The Foundations of the Nation have been overthrown by money powers, who have NO BUSINESS in running our government, but in FACT do.

Our entire economy is under the control of bankers.
Whose first priority in LIFE is to INCREASE RICHES.

They seen the best way to overthrow our Constitution was to get back the power over who issues money for the nations use.

Go back to our beginning and read of how it was the Bank of England the Founders seen as the ones to STOP.
They are the ones who financed King George and his rule in America.

Then follow the bankers war on the Constitution from the days of 1776 to 1913 when they had gained people in power to unlawfully amend the US Constitution with the criminal 16th amendment.

Presidents Jackson, Lincoln, Garfield, McKinnley, and Kennedy (all assassinated by the way)

Read up what they had to say against the money powers of their day, whose ambitions have always been the LOVE OF MONEY over any thing sacred or lawful.

The bankers own us all today and are the true rulers in Washington DC.

Correction
Presidents Jackson, Lincoln, Garfield, McKinnley, and Kennedy (all assassinated by the way)

Did not mean to include Jackson as being assassinated, just as a warrior against the bankers

Ever note the expansion ....
of gambling in peoples lives? The thought that they will be lucky. The concept of self determination and taking the risk of inordinate effort; that all that effort may fail is anathemea. Folks want gambling with a promise of success.
'Big government will probably hurt you, but it will do me well. I'll be the winner and you'll be the loser.'
In a nation where people have the depth of thought of a potted plant, the IQ of a chimp and less natural instincts than a house cat.. freedom is in deep trouble.

How could anyone expect great leadership when the masses want anything but great leadership?

Mrs. Paddy

I've been trying to temper my support of Ron Paul on this site because I'm sick of people calling me names for expressing my opinion. But since you asked I will answer your question. If Dr. Paul does not get the nod (and we all know he won't) I will vote for whoever the Libertarians run. Never again will I be vote for the lesser of two evils. And if that means Hillary wins then so be it. My conscience will be clear.

To TheEngineer. That's exactly why I will never support Hunter. I almost plotzed when I read his website.

Talent Scout
Okay...I'm on board with a well-armed militia. That's the biggest reason to fight the gun-control lobby.

The Liberals have the education of the citizenry pretty well sewed-up in the Public Schools and in the Liberal leaning universities. How do we accomplish "educatation on who is to be removed from power?"

How do we then accomplish said removal?

Mrs. Paddy

I've been trying to temper my support of Ron Paul on this site because I'm sick of people calling me names for expressing my opinion. But since you asked I will answer your question. If Dr. Paul does not get the nod (and we all know he won't) I will vote for whoever the Libertarians run. Never again will I be vote for the lesser of two evils. And if that means Hillary wins then so be it. My conscience will be clear.

To TheEngineer. That's exactly why I will never support Hunter. I almost plotzed when I read his website.

Phylo - what a crock
"These two have done more to restrict our freedoms than anyone in the history of our nation"

They're pikers compared to Lincoln, FDR, and even Eisenhower.

You left out a caveat; the average Joe won't benefit from this war... so long as we keep worrying about what liberals like YOU think. I would benefit greatly if we finished conquering Iraq and started piping the refined oil directly to the U.S. I would benefit greatly if we could give up the ridiculous rules of engagement, pacify Iraq, and use it as a staging ground for the pacification of the entire middle east.

TheEngineer, I won't vote for Ron Paul because I *do* want limited government... not MOSLEM government!

Talentscout, the old maxim "the worst enemy of capitalism is a greedy, successful capitalist" is still true. Thanks to Carter taking away our self-respect and pride, and thanks to President Reagan (rightfully) removing the stigma from ambition, the money wh0res have run amok. It is pride which provides restraint in a man. Too often any more I hear money or efficiency given as a MORAL excuse for behavior that would otherwise be unethical at best.

Cliff
In response to your 12:35 PM post, the vast majority of people who gamble do so for recreation. I've noticed non-gamblers seem to ascribe motives to activities of which they have no understanding, then try to pass big government laws to protect these folks from themselves.

You wrote, "Big government will probably hurt you, but it will do me well. I'll be the winner and you'll be the loser." How do you know this? You're all-knowing? First of all, I have no desire to "get lucky". I play poker, a game where winners and losers are determined by skill. I am a winning player, and I win via skill, not luck, hopes, or dreams.

So, perhaps you should stick to your hopes of great things via big government, while looking down on the rights of Americans to make their own choices...the rest of us will cherish our freedoms, and will continue to fight for it!

Bankers won over the Constitution

"Love of money is the root of all evil"

Here is just one of "Honest" Abes speeches against the bankers.

-------------------


In 1839 the Illinois state legislature faced with gloom the complete ruin of its pioneering railroad system. ....Financial chaos had erupted with the closing of the Bank of United States, and the Bank of England stopping credit to the unprotected American economy.
"One banker and one broker after another, to whose hands [state bonds] had been recklessly [sic] confided in New York and London, failed, or made away with the proceeds of the sales."

30-year old Abraham Lincoln, had led the fight for the state-built railroads. He was justifiably bitter against the aristocratic "free trade" faction which had brought down the Founding Fathers' economic system;
the northeastern bankers, political followers of Swiss nobleman Albert Gallatin, president of John Jacob Astor's National Bank of New York; and the South Carolina-based slaveowners' secession movement, organized around the free-market doctrines of British revolutionary immigrant Thomas Cooper

http://american_almanac.tripod.com/lincoln3.htm
---------------


This is what Abe had to say about the bankers of his day.


quote:
Lincoln knew that national survival depended on their political success. This is the conclusion of his Dec. 26, 1839 speech on banking:


" Many free countries have lost their liberty; and ours may lose hers; but if she shall, be it my proudest plume, not that I was the last to desert, but that I never deserted her. .......

while on its bosom are riding like demons on the waves of Hell, the imps of that evil spirit, and fiendishly taunting all those who dare resist its destroying course, with the hopelessness of their effort; and knowing this, I cannot deny that all may be swept away. Broken by it, I, too, may be; bow to it I never will.

TheEngineer/Devilspaintbrush
Could you expound a bit on why Hunter's stance on Internet Gambling is a problem for you?

How is it handled by the state, when by its very nature the internet crosses both state and national lines?

How can you track if these activities are money-laundering schemes?

I'm not trying to be adversarial, I just don't know much about this and would appreciate your explanation. Thanks

talent scout
yeah, here's what Lincoln had to say on the issue of the nature of the Republic:

600,000 dead Americans. Loss of the original form of our Republic, with the States being sovereign rather than provinces of a central federal gov't. The nation we have today is a direct result of his assault on the Republic.

Lincoln's not being anally raped in hell nearly enough.

Only Republican liberals can rape their own people and then blame the victim.

If I was unclear
...actions speak louder than words.

Take your God Given Rights
As an individual
Free American Citizens who is not the servant of government but its ruler.

-------------------

mrs Paddy writes: 12:37 PM
Talent Scout
Okay...I'm on board with a well-armed militia. That's the biggest reason to fight the gun-control lobby.

The Liberals have the education of the citizenry pretty well sewed-up in the Public Schools and in the Liberal leaning universities. How do we accomplish "educatation on who is to be removed from power?"

How do we then accomplish said removal?
---------------------------

Act upon your rights as an individual and accept the cost of liberty as whatever price it demands.


THE FOUNDING PRINCIPLES

---------------------------------------------


We hold these truths

(notice the 's' showing more than one truth is revealed)


to be self-evident,

(so plain it is common knowledge, inherent in each man to not need to be taught him)



(Truth 1.) that all men are created equal,




(2)that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

(3)that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

(4) - That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,

(5)deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -

(6) That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,

(7) and to institute new Government,

(8)laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
------------------------------------------


This line, line number 8 shows the underlying principle this Nation is Founded in is the truths 1-8

"laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form"


And the very First Principle Jefferson listed is
Rights come from God.


Actually it was the slavery money powers
jdw writes: Sunday, September, 23, 2007 1:14 PM
talent scout
yeah, here's what Lincoln had to say on the issue of the nature of the Republic:

600,000 dead Americans. Loss of the original form of our Republic, with the States being sovereign rather than provinces of a central federal gov't. The nation we have today is a direct result of his assault on the Republic.

Lincoln's not being anally raped in hell nearly enough.

Only Republican liberals can rape their own people and then blame the victim.
--------------

Civil War is not in debate, but.

As Lincoln once said (ad-libbed)
One side would destroy the Union to make money off slaves, the other side would accept war to preserve the Union.


Goes to the heart of the issue.
"love of money is the root of ALL evil"

We did it to ourselves.
Just how did we get from the limited government the Founding Fathers bequethed us to the monoliths in DC and the various states?
We did it to ourselves.
Every time the politicians foisted some scheme on the people by telling them it was necessary for our own good, we (not all of us but enough) fell for the lies and deception and, in our times of need--or times of greed--we just kept voting for the scoundrels. So we got what we asked for and deserved.
(Not all of us, but enough of us.)
In the long run, we get the government for which we vote.
(Not all of us, but enough of us.)

Perhaps someone can come up with the quote, which escapes me at the moment, about when slightly over half the people realize they can live off the other half by voting that way.

Pretty Poetry... pure nonsense
okay talentscout... time for a dose of reality...

"(Truth 1.) that all men are created equal,"

No, they are not. Men are individuals, they cannot be equal.

"2)that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, "

Nonsense. If rights were unalienable as handed down from God, they could not be violated...

"(3)that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

What right to life has a man drowning in the ocean? What right to liberty did the slaves have? Certainly that right was not "unalienable" or they wouldn't have been slaves. The Pursuit of Happiness is not a right, but a universal condition; to plagiarize Heinlein, you can cast me in the dankest dungeon, proclaim me king of kings, and I can "pursue happiness".

'4) - That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,

(5)deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -"

Please explain to Kim Jung Il that he derives his powers (just or otherwise) from the consent of the N. Korean people.

"these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,

(7) and to institute new Government,
"

Tell that to the Confederate States of America, who tried just that and were mercilessly crushed, their culture and society destroyed in a way no liberal would let us do to the filthiest of desert trash in the middle east.

mrs Paddy
No problem with an explanation of my position. Thanks for asking.

I do have many issues with Hunter's position. First of all, gaming is traditionally a state-level issue. States that wish for Internet gaming to be illegal should pass legislation that does just that. To date, only seven to twelve (depending on interpretation of laws passed and on type of gaming) have passed such legislation. Of these, only Washington and Louisiana have laws with any teeth. If these states feel so strongly about this issue that they need federal aid in enforcement, I feel they should pass unambiguous laws against Internet gaming. Until then, the feds should stay out of it.

Next, this is an issue of freedom. What business is it of the federal government what I do in my own home? We’ve never had a federal government so powerful that they felt they had a need to monitor my poker playing behavior in my own home.

[continued]


mrs. Patty (part 2)
And, enforcement is a difficult issue. Under UIGEA (last year’s bill), banks and Internet service providers will be deputized by the feds to monitor Americans for compliance with the law (once the governing regulations are issued). And, the DoJ will censor the Internet to prevent Americans from visiting these sites (like China and Iran do). Also, the DoJ won’t have to prove that these sites offer illegal gaming…they’ll be allowed to block whatever they interpret to be illegal (games of skill like poker being a good example here). Is this the America in which we wish to live?

Finally, the U.S. has already agreed to allow Internet gaming in our agreements with the WTO. They recently found America to be out of compliance, and have fined us billions in trade concessions (these will take effect soon…appeals are over, only the penalty phase remains). So, this issue will cost America even more jobs, plus billions in trade. The sad thing here is that we could have avoided this outcome with a total ban on Internet gaming (if it’s so “wrong”, why not ban all of it, if one is voting on principle). However, as usual, special interests were able to protect interstate horse racing, lotteries, and fantasy football. So, our most successful companies will soon be paying what I call the “Mitch McConnell Horse Racing Subsidy” and the “NFL Fantasy Football Tax”.

mrs Paddy (part 2)
And, enforcement is a difficult issue. Under UIGEA (last year’s bill), banks and Internet service providers will be deputized by the feds to monitor Americans for compliance with the law (once the governing regulations are issued). And, the DoJ will censor the Internet to prevent Americans from visiting these sites (like China and Iran do). Also, the DoJ won’t have to prove that these sites offer illegal gaming…they’ll be allowed to block whatever they interpret to be illegal (games of skill like poker being a good example here). Is this the America in which we wish to live?

Finally, the U.S. has already agreed to allow Internet gaming in our agreements with the WTO. They recently found America to be out of compliance, and have fined us billions in trade concessions (these will take effect soon…appeals are over, only the penalty phase remains). So, this issue will cost America even more jobs, plus billions in trade. The sad thing here is that we could have avoided this outcome with a total ban on Internet gaming (if it’s so “wrong”, why not ban all of it, if one is voting on principle). However, as usual, special interests were able to protect interstate horse racing, lotteries, and fantasy football. So, our most successful companies will soon be paying what I call the “Mitch McConnell Horse Racing Subsidy” and the “NFL Fantasy Football Tax”.

sorry about the double-post
I waited five minutes. :-(

mrs paddy

I just went back and revisited Hunter's site. He has since toned down his rhetoric about gambling in general to internet gambling. Now his position is to protect us from those evil drug dealers who are laundering money (as a service to all I won't get into the subject of legalizing drugs).

My tiny, paranoid Libertarian brain sees all government intrusion as a threat to our liberties. Does not mean I'm right. Some people are perfectly happy to trade freedom for security and to them I say fine. I'll never convince them to change their minds just like they will never convince me to change mine. But in response your query, where does it end? Will the banning of internet gambling make even a tiny dent in "illegal" money laundering? People have been laundering money since way before Al Gore invented the internet.

jdw
"(Truth 1.) that all men are created equal,"

No, they are not. Men are individuals, they cannot be equal.

I am pretty sure our forefathers were talking about (RIGHTS) be you poor or rich. Therefore, I have the same rights afforded me by God as say, The Rockefeller’s

The US Constitution
Is it worth restoring to todays Americans?

That is the only question one needs to ask all of us.

The 16th amendment and every law passed based in that fraud needs to be abolished.

This is the only avenue we have to restore the government to the lawful limits of the US Constitution.

Which document never allowed the Marxist Socialism partnership of business and government, but is what we have today.

This could not have happened without the bankers gaining the control over our economy and the value of the money supply as we live under presently.

The money powers own both out political parties, and are used to divide and conquer.
And we all dance to their music by choosing the lessor of two evils every 4 years.

The powers that be intend to see Hilliary Klinton, a Marxist as much as Stalin elected to office.
GW Bush is aiding her by destroying whats left of the unity of the republicans.

I find people today are so discouraged over hoping for restoration of limited government, as we watch the deeds over their words.

The Presidential Debates have been reduced to the level of grade school arguments, all avoiding the issues of value.

Unless we stop allowing the democrats and the republicans to define who gets elected to the highest office, we are done for as a Sovereign Nation built upon the Foundations that created America.
Get out of the box and vote anyone in but a democrat or republican.
Or as I should say who the National Conventions give us to vote on.

Hunter, Tancredo or Paul, even a ditch digger would be a step up from any front runner the democrats or republicans allow us to "choose".

TheEngineer
I see your point about outright ban being the principle.

I think that our interconnectedness issued in by our computer age has created some really thorny issues, and I certainly don't have any solutions.

I do think, however, that the blanket statement about this being an issue of freedom is not totally acceptable. I could carry on an illegal prostitution business in my own home, but just because said illegal activity happens in my home doesn't exempt me from the responsibility of following the law.

I'm not saying that this issue is against the law...I really don't know that much about it. I don't want the internet to be regulated in some respects, however, how do we prevent it being exploited for criminal gain if we turn a blind eye to everything?

Do you?
Do you have the same "rights" afforded Bill Gates? Like access to your government? Or the Rockefellers? Of course, you don't have the power to influence events like Gates or the Rockefellers, either...

There are no such things as rights; there is only power and action. "Rights" are a fiction we use to discuss the distribution of power and the effects of action. We have all the rights we have the power to exercise. I have the Constitutional right to walk down the street with a shotgun in each hand. But I don't have any such right in my own home town, because I cannot exercise it. An attempt to exercise it will be forcefully halted. Therefore, in reality, I do not have the right to keep and bear arms, at all. I'd like to hold the gov't to the contract (Constitution) that says I do, but I have no power to do so.


mrs Paddy
Thanks. Yes, my main issue is the outright ban.

As for freedoms, I believe we already have all rights that have not been given to (or taken by) the federal government (I know some here think government has the rights they've not explicitly "given" to the people...how sad is that?). Therefore, federal gambling restrictions do constitute NEW restrictions on our freedoms, rather than enforcement of current law (like your example).

I ask everyone here...is anyone afraid of a government that's powerful enough to accomplish a total Internet gaming ban? I know I fear giving the federal government this power. Our founding fathers certainly did.

really a rehash
Nice column by Mr. Connor, but it's really a rehash of what any conservative knows prima facie. I appreciate true scout's posts, and believe that restoring the gold standard and repeal of the illegal 16th amendment are necessary to restore sanity and stability to the republic.

Law ands Justice demands equal
Recognition of Rights.
----------------

jdw writes: Sunday, September, 23, 2007 1:32 PM
Pretty Poetry... pure nonsense
okay talentscout... time for a dose of reality...


--------------------------------------
talent scout:
Your following objections are over ruled as being realistic.
----------

jdw writes:
No, they are not. Men are individuals, they cannot be equal.






You are confused and dismissed by not understanding the text and its direct applications to RIGHTS FOR ALL MEN.

There is no such thing as equal protection of the law without equal enforcement.

The south could not allow such a thing as this due to the money powers who would not recognize these rights, just as you do not and twist the words to color it to your own discouragements.

I do agree with your sentiments, but its does not good to dismiss the very basis for all of it.

The ownership of our government by the money powers of this day.

They are the ones this battle is over.


libphobic
You and I may know it, but it seems many CINOs forgot it (or never believed it in the first place).

TheEngineer
Thanks for clarifying your position.

So, if you don't want the federal government to ban gaming, what is the solution to the internet being exploited by anybody? Do you agree with the statement by DevilsPaintBrush that money laundring has always been going on, so why fight it?

I do agree that I'm not comfortable with turning over any more power to the government, but I do wonder what prudent actions should be instituted to prevent criminals from exploiting online gaming.

What kinds of laws do you think should be instituted? Or, do you think that there are current laws that already deal with this issue?

When does an issue fall beyond the scope of a state or even a nation?

I'll check back later today...I have to leave for a while.

jdw
I think that is what we "new" grassroots Republicans are trying to address and fix right now! And I am not talking about the Rudy's or Mitts either. I will NOT vote for people who all of a sudden (08) change color like a lizard to get votes, or by who raises the most money!

mrs Paddy
Actually, there are good options out there right now. HR 2046, the Internet Gambling Regulation and Enforcement Act provides protections for not only money laundering (a red herring anyway, does the government really own our money, such that they have a right to dictate how we spend it?), but for age verification, licensing, compulsive behavior protections (funding for treatment, self-exclusion from all sites, etc), and other issues. It also provides for states' rights by giving them opt-outs. A hearing was held by the House Financial Services Committee on this issue on June 8, and it was conclusively proven that this industry can be effectively regulated. The hearing is available for viewing at http://financialserv.edgeboss.net/wmedia/financialserv/hearing060807.wvx . Other info is at http://www.house.gov/apps/list/hearing/financialsvcs_dem/ht060807.shtml . Also, it would "onshore" the industry, bringing companies under the umbrella of U.S. law.

Another bill is the Skill Game Protection Act (HR 2610). This bill declares poker to be a game of skill. It provides various protections (fewer controls than IGREA) while placing Internet poker under the legal requirements already in place for various "games of skill" already offered by Yahoo and other sites.

This really can't be effectively prohibited. However, effective regulation can control for the issues we as Americans care about, while allowing Americans the freedom to make their own choices. The reason the controls will work is that players will feel safer playing at these sites.

Flawed Premise
"There is no such thing as equal protection of the law without equal enforcement.
"

There is no such thing as equal protection of the law. You can put the period there.

"The south could not allow such a thing as this due to the money powers who would not recognize these rights, just as you do not and twist the words to color it to your own discouragements.
"

The flaw in your assertion about the antebellum South is you assume that they thought and viewed the world as liberals do today. Would you suggest that there could not be equal protection of the law if said equality were not granted to *horses*? It's difficult for a modern mind to wrap itself around the fact that white Americans of that era questioned the very humanity, let alone the equality of blacks. These weren't mere rhetorical talking points for political purposes, it was part of the fundamental belief system, just as fundamental as modern Americans believe that females are no different than males.

I don't color anything. Jefferson wrote pretty poetry. Had the French not intervene, it's likely we would have NO Constitutional rights today, no matter how God-given. The French gave us the *power* to take the *actions* to become independent of England.

There are no rights without power. And your repeated use of the term "money powers" concerns me, as it paints you anti-capitalist, which is another word for communist.


Well jdw
No point to argue with you is there.

You see the D of I as poetry.

And your lack of knowledge of Marxism is amusing, it is what we have today and called "free markets" ha ha

One more thing about Hunter's CINOism
He states (at ttp://www.gohunter08.com/inner.asp?z=4 )

"I also believe Internet gambling has become a problem as serious as traditional casino gambling. Law enforcement agencies have indicated that this activity serves as a vehicle for money laundering activities that can be exploited by terrorists and organized crime. It is for this reason that I cosponsored H.R. 4777 (Goodlatte-VA) which will amend federal law and bring the current prohibition against wireline interstate gambling up to date with the Internet and other new technologies. At the same time, the bill will provide additional tools to law enforcement to combat illegal gambling."

Note that he says "can be exploited". So, in all these years it's not been exploited, yet he feels a need to restrict our freedoms "just in case"? LOL. Sorry, but this is not a particularly efficient means of moving large sums of money. What's next? Will he outlaw eBay? Seriously...he opposes this because he doesn't like it. He should say so.

Also, these companies are not fly-by-night operators of the sort likely to be participating in money laundering. In fact, prior to last year's restrictions, the vast majority of Internet gaming companies that offered services to Americans were legal in their nations of operation, and were publicly traded. The contention of money laundering stems from the U.S. government's position that Internet gaming is an illegal activity, despite the fact that there are no federal laws against non-sports wagering (i.e., any profits are, by definition, "laundered"). Besides, if this is a problem, why not regulate the industry and move in onshore…that will take care of these issues? We know the reason…Hunter doesn’t like poker.

This is STUPIDLY biased
jdw writes:
I don't color anything. Jefferson wrote pretty poetry. Had the French not intervene, it's likely we would have NO Constitutional rights today, no matter how God-given. The French gave us the *power* to take the *actions* to become independent of England.
--------------

Your hatred shines through and is evident, and are so dumb you do not realize who is responsible for slavery.

Your blackness (or white socialist liberal liar)is seen in all you write about Jefferson, and is the only basis you use for your own distorted world view.

You are dumb dumb dumbed down typical product of public shools and socialist propaganda.

Without such men as Jefferson you dummy, the black man in America would still be slaves under the British Crown, the ones who legalized it and brought it into existence.
And the Spanish government owned all the rest of slavery and was much more massive in the Carribean Islands and South America.

You are an illiterate jdw



The Exiles of Florida, Or, The Crimes ... - by Joshua Reed Giddings - 338 pages
The Progress of Slavery in the United States - by George Melville Weston - 301 pages
The Spanish Conquest in America, and Its ... - by Arthur Helps




Slavery was instituted in America
BY MERCHANTS
Legalized by the British Crown, and we have idiots like jdw who blame the men who fought slavery like Jefferson and calling the Declaration of Independence "poetry".

IDIOT!

Giving credit to the French for the
American Revolution is like giving a bank the credit for free money.

Without the WILL of the Americans, the French COULD NOT AND DID NOT EVER DEFEAT THE BRITISH.

They aided the Americans is all, not even close to being the deliverer the ignorant jdw gives them credit for.

Now
After allowing myself to be antagonized by an unlearned person, I feel dumbed down myself.

I am sorry for allowing my words to be so pointed, but just so tired of the lies being told and re-told today by people who will not study the real history of America, and especially the causes and credit we all owe a debt to.

Sorry jdw for letting my anger go.
Without the words they gave us, there would never existed any freemen, black or white in America.
You calling it poetry was just too much.

Very pretty, but....
Nice prose in favor of smaller government. Trouble is, neither Democrats nor Republicans (the leadership, at least) show any inclination of reducing the size of government.

George W. Bush had Republican control of both houses of Congress from 2002 through 2006. There was no effort whatsoever put forward to reduce federal spending, either for welfare or for warfare.

You have to conclude that Republican "conservatives" have no interest in reducing the size of the federal government. It's all a lot of pretty window dressing and vapid talk.

The author carefully avoids the issue of the senseless war in Iraq, but this is certainly an example of "big government" at its most wasteful and most destructive. Whether this careful avoidance is out of political calculation or sheer cowardice, only the author knows.

There is only one candidate--Ron Paul--who really understands the issue of freedom versus big government.

BS
The French did help towards the end, but let me say this. Even if they had not, our forefathers would have won eventually just because they had COURAGE AND CONVICTION. So thanks to the French, which we have paid back 10 fold, and thanks to our forefathers for sticking to it and going the distance!

Amen Gabby

The same people who say government fails at everything it does somehow believe the same government can protect us from the Muslim boogyman. Personally, I'd rather rely on "Charlene" to protect me and mine than a bureaucrat.

However, I wouldn't call republicans cowards. They've just been effectively "Hannitized."

jdw: flawed premise (2:55PM)
jdw wrote:
"There are no rights without power. And your repeated use of the term "money powers" concerns me, as it paints you anti-capitalist, which is another word for communist."
-------------------------
What would be a better term to use when referring to organizations like the Council on Foreign Relations or the Trilateral Commission?

Rickey Braddam


Internet Gaming
First, to Doc: thanks for writing, you have saved me a lot of keyboard time.

As for Internet Gaming, has anyone considered just how that would have to be implemented? We're talking about something someone is doing from their own computer, in their own home, over the Internet.

How is the government supposed to know what you are doing? There is no way for them to know unless they monitor all data coming from your computer or going to it. The way it is now the Internet is the ultimate *Free Press*, but any attempt to control it would give absolute control over it. Does anyone really want that?

Rickey Braddam

Paolo
You are RIGHT on that part about the RINOS doing nothing to make any hard changes. WE are going to change that!


INSIGHTING TRUTH

.....Paul says he would eliminate the Department of Education ...well he doesn't have to be President to do that ...all he has to do is challenge it in Federal Court the way Robert Byrd challenged the line-item-veto ...

.....action speaks ...words are cheap ...show me the money .....COLOSSUS

ONE DAY
When Human Beings finally say that we must end "ALL" "EVIL",and do so, government will cease to have value!ONE DAY....

TALENT SCOUT

.....Ron Paul has been introducing Bills he knows will never get to the floor and voting against Bills he knows are going to pass ...this is not fighting for something ...it is not even action ...it is symbolism ...

.....Ron Paul will never change anything of significance in the Legislature ...he has to go to the Courts ...the Democrats figured this out a long time ago ...I don't want another symbol ...I want a junk yard dog who will actually get something done ...right now of all the candidates I only see one who has accomplished real results .....COLOSSUS

Don't go to courts
I doubt that's Ron Paul's style. Libertarians like him know that courts are a big part of the problem.

baseballdoc
".....Paul says he would eliminate the Department of Education ...well he doesn't have to be President to do that ...all he has to do is challenge it in Federal Court the way Robert Byrd challenged the line-item-veto ..."

Is that all? Wouldn't he have to get a legal team together? Woudn't he have to finance it? Oh...one more thing. To actually eliminate, wouldn't he actually have to WIN THE CASE? Courts don't just give stuff away, especially to those trying to shrink government.

Ron Paul is fighting the good fight, often all on his own. Even people here resent him for that. I'm proud of him for persevering.

Judicial tyranny
Forget the courts. We ought to neuter the courts. The courts are so Leftists can push through their agenda that they cannot get popular support for in the democratic process. The courts are used to circumvent (end essentially destroy) our republican form of govt.

Ron Paul will not try to use the courts.

INDEPENDENT THINKER

.....The quote you are thinking of is from ...Alexander Tyler, 1778 on the fall of the Athenian Republic ...

.....This is part of it ..."A Democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of Government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public Treasury, with the result that a Democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship."

.....Make way for Hillary .....COLOSSUS

Gabby
You talk to much without knowing much :P I say people like you are the reason this country is in the shape it's in. I am of course thinking since you didn't mention the leftards like george sor hos that you are a moveon.duh fan. Or are you just a hater of everyone?

baseball
I have faith that this country will not elect Hillary.

ENGINEER

.....Yes! ...Paul would have to do all that .....COLOSSUS

talent scout: Constitution (1:53PM)
ts wrote:
"Unless we stop allowing the democrats and the republicans to define who gets elected to the highest office, we are done for as a Sovereign Nation built upon the Foundations that created America."
---------------------------

How do the Primary elections figure into that? Don't they give us the opportunity to over-ride the national parties and select the candidates we want?

Of course, that means we will have to register as Democrat or Republican and go vote in the Primaries...

My vote then will be for Duncan Hunter. His position on Internet Gaming is a problem but maybe he can be convinced of the error of his way about that. Even if not, one compromise is acceptable when his other positions are right on target.

Some people seem to think that the political parties and the politicians have some kind of ultimate power. Who do you think defeated the Immigration Scamnest bill? Twice!

WE did, grassroots Republicans and Democrats. We can do it again. Vote in the primaries (unless you want to opt out of the election by registering with a third party). Whether you refuse to vote, or you vote for a third-party candidate, all you have actually done is vote for the winner. If you vote for a third party candidate, you have simultaneously voted for a loser. Things can change between now and November 08 re third party candidates, but I think the probability is extremly low.

Vote In The Primaries! That way you have the opportunity to simultaneously cut the legs out from under the national parties and the chance to get the candidate you want!

Rickey Braddam

Wasn't me my friend
baseballdoc writes: Sunday, September, 23, 2007 5:31 PM
TALENT SCOUT

.....Ron Paul has been introducing Bills he knows will never get to the floor and voting against Bills he knows are going to pass ...this is not fighting for something ...it is not even action ...it is symbolism ...

.....Ron Paul will never change anything of significance in the Legislature ...he has to go to the Courts ...the Democrats figured this out a long time ago ...I don't want another symbol ...I want a junk yard dog who will actually get something done ...right now of all the candidates I only see one who has accomplished real results .....COLOSSUS
---------------------

Who said that.
I like Ron Paul on many issues, but in a study of his position concerning Iraq.

I am not like many who are ready to call him a liberal over his take on that.

In reading his views on the Constitutional issues in banking, I see he loves the same things I do.

So for now I am giving him the benefit of the doubt until I understand his views about Iraq better.
I have come to believe Vietnam was an industrial/military issue for having a controlled war to make money.

(not interested in debating that now though)

TN
I like Hunter too but I see no hope for him so it's a wasted vote. We cannot allow Rudy to get the nom so we need to vote for Romney or Huckabee.

Line Item Veto and Myths
We should clear up a few myths about the line-item veto and the ability of members of congress to challenge the constitutionality of laws in court. First, it is very difficult for a member of congress to challenge because the first test that must be passed for the court to even hear the case is that they have to be damaged by the law. Prior courts have ruled that simply being a tax payer or other general claiment is not sufficient. It must be specific damage. Sheets Byrd was not able to establish that finding and had no standing before the court.

The actual claimants who went forward were an Idaho Potato growing association and NYC. You guessed it, it was RINO Rudy as the principle damagee that challenged the law.

So based on that it would be hard for Ron Paul to challenge any of these unconstitutional government departments until the Court recognizes that the taxpayers are in fact damaged by these laws.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=000&invol=97-1374

Vic, you're right but
don't you agree that an activist court generally is a bad court. As a conservative, I want to use the legitimate processes within a republican form of govt to undue the idiocy imposed by the Left.

I'm all for internet gambling
I'm also for restricting government funding of any kind (Federal, State and Local) for prevention of, investigation of, or prosecution of fraud of every type conceivable, as a result of said internet gambling.

You want to play with the predators? Fine by me. But, don't come crying to me, or waste a single solitary second or red cent of government services to clean up your mess.

Let's be REAL conservatives.


TNhillbilly writes
You are right on what you say.
My only point is this about electing a democrat or a republican.

I can read every issue and all about individual candidates, and just one other person out there who will only vote for the most visible democrat or republican (with the money to pay for ads) cancels my vote out.

The facts as we all know, allow anyone over 18 to vote, and many do not even know who the Vice President is, but they see the ads from the money supported candidates of both parties.

Big government is not the enemy
Connor would have one believe that government is the enemy of freedom. I counter with the simple question of: "what freedoms?"

One of the things we never seem to ask are what freedoms are worth keeping and what freedoms aren't. The freedom to kill your fellow man, or to steal from him certainly aren't. The freedom to endanger people through drug-use and or alcohol which mentally impairs you certainly isn't. The freedom to con your fellow man in a business transaction certainly isn't. Freedom-absolutism (libertarianism) is a dangerous thing, much as is a government-absolutism philosophy (which reminds me of Giuliani).

As for scrutinizing state secrets, if we were capable of and did that all the time, well, they wouldn't be secrets, now would they? How to build a nuke, protecting informants in critical roles is crucial, and it's better to place such things before oversight committees of the legislature than some judge. Their role is to enforce the laws, not toss out what they don't like.

The Conservative movement and Republican party needs to come to terms with the notion that its anti-government paranoia borders on the fanatical. Can it overstep its bounds? Certainly, but the sky is not falling. Our civil liberties have not been greatly suppressed. The fact that the government is capable of collecting information on its citizens in no way hinders the ability of its citizens to accomplish anything. To paint matters as such is simply silly.

The looney lefties have the absurd notion that America was behind 9/11, that we torture whomever we please just for fun's sake, and are generally on an imperialistic oppressive bent, including against our own citizens. It's sad to see when Conservatives join them in the same ludicrous chorus.

Liberius
Well if enough people start thinking about Hunter i think he would have a chance. And i cant consider mitt or julie because they change their stripes to much.

Liberius
Things can change a lot between now and September 08 when the national convention is held in St. Paul.

Romney is a big question mark... basically, I don't trust anyone from Ma. He's just a little - no, a lot too smooth. At least his name is not on the CFR's Former Members list, like Thompson's is.

Rickey Braddam

Liberius
It depends on how you define "activist". There are as many definitions out there as there are people. I haven’t studied this decision so I don’t have a dog in the hunt, other than I think if the President was honest it would be a good thing. The decision in this case wasn’t the normal 5/4 lib-cons split that you saw in that time. It was a 6-3 decision meaning that at least one of the conservatives also didn’t agree with the law.

Earnest Will
"I'm all for internet gambling
I'm also for restricting government funding of any kind (Federal, State and Local) for prevention of, investigation of, or prosecution of fraud of every type conceivable, as a result of said internet gambling."

Fine with us. No one is asking for government "help". Your option sure beats having the DoJ scouring the planet under dubious laws to arrest people for the "crime" of providing a service that Americans seek while spying on our banking practices and censoring the Internet. After all, you may call these folks "predators", but I've never heard of one case where a site forced someone to play against his or her will.

It's funny how liberal you anti-gaming folks sound when it comes to gaming. The same folks who claim to believe people have a right to keep and bear arms (as I do) suddenly think Americans cannot be trusted with their Internet connection. People who believe welfare enables poverty suddenly believe gaming is a "tax on poor people". People who claim to believe in limited government suddenly wish to empower the federal government police the Internet, banks, and ISPs to enforce their position on someone playing poker online.

Stoic Patriot
"The freedom to kill your fellow man, or to steal from him certainly aren't."

What freedoms are those? I've noticed a lot of big government "conservatives" act like all laws represent restrictions on morality, so all are equal. However, in reality some laws protect property rights from encroachment of others, such as your "right to steal".

Engineer
First of all, just because I think giving your money away to a gambling establishment is stupid, doesn't mean I'm a liberal. I believe that gambling should be allowed. I refuse to use silly euphemisms like "gaming," though.

Anti-gambling? You bet. Gambling is for stooges.

I watched an interview with a guy who used to run one of these online sites. He described the numerous ways the "house" cheats you blind. Which is fine by me. Just so long as it doesn't cost ME anything.

I wish we could find a way to keep the morons intent on killing themselves with drugs, alcohol and tobacco from costing us money. I'm certainly not for criminalizing behavior, unnecessarily. I just wish people's stupidity didn't burden the portion of society with a brain.

I hate "anti" laws.

Earnest Will
Okay, that sounds more conservative. I didn't say you're a liberal. Rather, I said big government "conservative" arguments against gaming frequently sound like arguments liberals make with regards to other issues.

I personally don't like paying for other peoples' problems, either, especially for foolish decisions.

As for me, I have a brain, which I use to make money playing poker when I'm not designing stuff (I really am an engineer). I think others who play for luck are welcome to, though I'll never join them.

I hate "anti" laws, too.

TNHillbilly Has It Right

If the GOP thinks they can continue to import cheap labor for their donors at the expense of the citizens, they will. I will not vote for that again. If we continue to play the game of "the other guy is worse", we will lose our country. Sorry, but I will not participate in that game any longer. The GOP power brokers think we will vote for "anybody but a Democrat" so they can continue to ignore securing the borders and enforcing the laws. I'm hoping GOP primary voters give the party elites some surprises in the primaries. The levers of power and the money in the GOP are all in the hands of the cheap labor express. They do not want Hunter as the candidate. We have to make him the nominee by voting in the primaries. We have to talk to our friends and neighbors about him. He is not going to get media coverage. It's going to have to be a grass roots effort. I want to vote for a GOP candidate in Nov.'08, I will not vote for any of the amnesty supporters. I oppose changing the laws to suit those breaking them. If it takes crushing the GOP so a new party representing American citizens can arise, so be it.

The so-called "top tier" will not get out the voters necessary for a GOP win. Increasing turnout is the key. Give people something to vote for. Not just the lesser of two evils. Won't work this time. People are fed up with the inundation of illegal aliens. They would come out in droves for the clear choice of D=amnesty or R=enforcement. They will stay home if they both equal amnesty.

http://www.gohunter08.com

Non-ideological

The growth of big government is global and stems largely from population growth, industrialization and urbanization. Compared to agrarian peoples living at low densities, when you have larger numbers of wealthy people living closer together, you need more government to plan & build the infrastructure and to coordinate activities such as education, transportation and work on an industrial scale. In these senses, big government is non-ideological and is found in many different systems.

Moreover, one of government's basic functions is providing safety to its citizens. Because some governments start wars, in effect this means people need governments to protect them from other governments. Added to trends described in my first paragraph, the immense, industrial scale wars starting in 1914 spurred the growth of government all over the advanced world. With vast firepower in the hands of deranged tyrants, it's not too surprising how this happened. It's fantasy to suggest that we might return to the halcyon days of pre-1914 laissez faire without taking the above facts into account.

Many posters who claim to be small government conservatives seem preoccupied with sumptuary laws regulating people's sex lives, private habits, religious practices and so on, without attempting to calculate the costs of enforcement, either in dollars or liberties impinged upon. Many conservative commentators and states rights' advocates alike argue convincingly that as the sole nationally elected official, argue credibly that foreign policy is clicked official, the president's most important responsibility is foreign policy. Duncan Hunter's campaign link doesn't mention foreign policy proposals until way down the list. Sam Brownback's is just as bad. They both sound like old-fashioned versions of the Nanny State that liberals have made so tiresome.

Surely we can do better than that.

TNHillbilly
Re your defeat of the immigration bill, I wonder if you read Phyllis Schlafly's townhall article last week---it was only up for about a day. If you missed it you can google it by title, "Two Dubai-Ports/Harriet Miers Moments Coming". I think you will find it interesting. Re the fence along our southern border, which was passed 283-138 by the House and 80-19 by the Senate, of a mandated 854 miles of fence President Bush has thus far, according to Schlafly, built only 19 miles.

The other matter discussed in this article is that effective September 6 (three weeks ago) President Bush has given free entry to Mexican trucks and drivers on any road in the United States. He did this after a big "NO WAY" was passed 411-3 in the House and no vote was ever allowed in the Senate due to White House pressure. Since 1971 American law has required all commercial drivers to speak and read English but now we can forget that, although the law is still on the books. Also, only 1-2% of trucks entering from Mexico are inspected.

I don't know why townhall pulled this article so fast---the subject matter was interesting and relevant to townhall interests.

edit flub

Apparently my delete key got a little balky. In the sixth & seventh to last lines, the clause "argue credibly that foreign policy is clicked official" doesn't belong. I hope that hasn't left the gist of the paragraph incomprehensible.

Sure,
big government is the enemy of freedom. Unfortunately, it has become the tool of the people who vote to enrich themselves at the expense of other American citizens. Right now we live in a society that is based on everyone feeding at the public trough.


Republicans, Democrats, it makes no difference these days. Freedom is doomed as long as politicians can purchase votes with tax dollars. They all stay in power by pilfering the public treasure. When they vote for money to fund projects that their constituents think benefit them in their states, they are destroying freedom.


The politicians now routinely vote themselves pay raises. Their health care and pensions can only be dreamed about by most citizens. That is if they had a clue as to what those perks really are. Most people don't know about this thievery.


The people allow them to do this. Why? We, as citizens can't do that. The entire notion is insane. Those politicians know that a people who will tolerate them voting themselves pay increases, no matter what is happening with the economy, deserve to be fleeced. Until we stop thinking of tax dollars as dollars that enrich ourselves, at other people's expense, things can only get worse.

Cont.

Big government Cont.
I think we all need to take a look into the mirror. We live in a nation that is ruled by politicians who work tirelessly to restrict rights guaranteed under the Constitution. The government argues about how many of our rights will be recognized, and how many will be denied.


We actually feel grateful when they decide that we can continue to own guns, just not guns with pistol grips, or guns that LOOK too threatening to them. Guess what people? One day they will decide that we no longer have the right to own ANY guns. Just wait and see. Actually, Americans can be described as being too stupid to own the means of self defense.


Eventually the politicians will take them from us. We actually help them steal from us. Under these conditions freedom cannot survive, and it won't.

Republicans and Democrats
Well citizens, you are all mad about the treason going on in our nation. What are you really going to do about it?
All of you will vote for One party or the other because you don't have the guts to elect an Independent candidate.
You have been conditioned to believe only Democrats or Republicans should be elected.
So why don't you check out my website and see what a real American will do for this nation.
Who am I? I'm an 80 year old retired guy that has watched our nation be destroyed from within, and I've had enough of this treason. I could just sit back with the excuse that I'm too old to get involved and let the younger citizens handle this. I'm sorry but the younger generation has no idea what is happening, and doesn't care. They are convinced that our nation is protected by the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Our Supreme Court had nullified our Constitution over and over.
http://www.DonCordellforPresident.com
http://DonCordell.Townhall.com

Ken Connor
There is a problem with your theory. That problem is that size is not what matters as much as type.

A dictatorship is always going to give you less freedom than a democracy. That is true despite the fact that dictatorships can be run with smaller governments because of their highly effective centralized command system.

Democracies on the other hand are by their nature bigger. Because they require all of us to input into the system. That creates much more work, and that in turn requires a bigger infrastructure to maintain. Further more in a democracy, one requires checks the balances so that it does no one interest group can gain control thereby changing the system or gaming it. Again this requires more infrastructure.

Speaking of Ron Paul
Where is an informed public?
IT IS NOT AMERICANS.


We are the least informed governed people on the planet and is the only reason many today will get up and go to work in a state of bliss.

quote:
I have reintroduced The Sunlight Rule. (H.RES 63) This proposed rule stipulates that no piece of legislation can be brought before the House of Representatives for a vote unless it has been available to members and staff to read for at least ten days. Any amendments must be available for at least 72 hours before a vote. The Sunlight Rule provides the American people the opportunity to be involved in enforcing congressional rules by allowing citizens to move for censure of any Representative who votes for a bill brought to the floor in violation of this act.

So far I have two co-sponsors. It is my belief that this simple new rule could greatly disinfect the House of the creeping, insidious growth, merely by shining the light on legislation before it is voted on. We need time to think before we enact. The American people deserve at least this much from their Congress.
-----------------------
Remember the rush to get the immigration laws changed?
Well this is the standard today for the worst legislation in the history of America, the passage of the 16th Amendment was done just exactly like this too.

-------------------

Ron Paul:
"Literally, in the dark hours of the morning at the end of the year, it has become tradition for the Appropriations committee to rush the famous omnibus bill to the floor for a vote, mere hours after it is introduced. The vote took place at 4 am the last time an omnibus spending bill was before us. We had all of 4 hours to deliberate on almost 1400 pages of important legislation. My colleagues somehow found this acceptable, however, and the bill passed 212-206"
--------

If this is not total crap, nothing is worth caring about in any thing Congress does.

Yeah yeah yeah
Check your statements against every one of the Founders who actually knew how the real world works.
------------------

uber writes: M 8:55 AM
Ken Connor
There is a problem with your theory. That problem is that size is not what matters as much as type.

A dictatorship is always going to give you less freedom than a democracy. That is true despite the fact that dictatorships can be run with smaller governments because of their highly effective centralized command system.

Democracies on the other hand are by their nature bigger. Because they require all of us to input into the system. That creates much more work, and that in turn requires a bigger infrastructure to maintain. Further more in a democracy, one requires checks the balances so that it does no one interest group can gain control thereby changing the system or gaming it. Again this requires more infrastructure.
-------------------

What a load of ignorance

for Stoic Patriot
Stoic Patriot writes: "The fact that the government is capable of collecting information on its citizens in no way hinders the ability of its citizens to accomplish anything."

Oh, brother.

Obviously you have never had to fill out Schedule D on your Federal Income Tax return. I have and so have tens of millions of other Americans.

The requirements on reporting long term capital gains, short term capital gains, etc., which are taxed at different rates, BIASES the type of investments I choose to make. You cannot escape because you are required to list EVERY investment you sold that year, every stock, every mutual fund, everything.

When the Government is watching over you, you aren't just going to ignore the fact that they're watching. You're going to change your behavior, in a zillion little subtle ways.

If the Government installed TV cameras on every public street, you wouldn't just ignore them being there. You would be careful not to be seen with your lover or going into a brothel--just in case.

And that's how a loss of privacy leads to a subtle loss of freedom.

Our Founding Fathers would have been horrified at the way that everything we do and every aspect of our economy has under government surveillance.

"outing" Stoic Patriot
Stoic Patriot writes: "The Conservative movement and Republican party needs to come to terms with the notion that its anti-government paranoia borders on the fanatical."

Stoic Patriot,
you already explained your hidden agenda, your true motives, in another discussion thread we just had here on Rudy Giuliani and gun rights. There you said:

"I've made it eminently clear that I am a social conservative. I am not one whose primary concern revolves around at what level of government something is accomplished - merely that I care about the content of what is accomplished."

And there you have it folks, exactly why the GOP rank-and-file didn't run away from Big Government Conservatism until the November 2006 election debacle. Because so many of them are SOCIAL conservatives who don't care if Government is "big" so long as the "big government" is doing what THEY want it to do. Given a choice between federalism and enacting their social agenda at the national level, they will go for the latter.

Stoic Patriot doesn't mind "Big Government," so long as the "Big Government" uses its power to pass the Defense of Marriage Act (overriding state marriage laws) and the rest of the social-conservative agenda.

As I replied to Stoic Patriot, where it becomes a moral challenge to remain a conservative is when conservatives actually win elections and take power. Then "limited government" becomes a limit on OUR ability to do things that WE might like: less power to pass Defense of Marriage Acts (overriding state marriage laws), less power to enact earmarks for OUR heavily Republican congressional districts, etc. As true conservatives, we have to eschew the temptation to keep expanding our power to accomplish things that might make the conservative base feel good--if the sum total of those things leads to a further accretion of Federal power over the states and over the individual.




Finally, a truth of reason
Finally a small government conservative who correctly describes most elected Republicans as the "morons" they are. The Republican party betrayed its fiscally responsible roots so egregiously these last six years that I will never vote for a Republican on the Federal level again. I'm a straight libertarian now, thanks to Congress and Bush.

I figure it's better to have a Democrat who says he wants to increase the size of government, then does it, than to have a Republican who says he's fiscally responsible, but isn't.

for TheEngineer
TheEngineer writes: "For me, the canary in the mine shaft was last year's federal restricting of Internet gaming."

You came on board relatively late, then. :-)

For me, the canary in the mine shaft was the Bush Administration's Justice Department's attempts to ban the medicinal use of marijuana, even by cancer patients.

If you believe in federalism (as Fred Thompson is advocating it), then that's wrong on at least two different levels:

First, if you're battling metastatic cancer, then your choice of medical treatment, what drugs to put into your body to cope with that disease, should be ENTIRELY between you and your doctor. The Justice Department should stay out of it.

And if the laws in your state have no problem with your use of marijuana in this extreme instance, then again the Federal Government should avoid overriding state laws on what should be an issue of local option.

The "Big Government Conservatives" have never explained why they think that abortion should be a state issue (i.e. Roe v. Wade should be overturned), but medical marijuana should be a Federal issue (i.e. the Federal Government should override state drug laws). To me, that makes no sense whatsoever.

for Phylo
Phylo writes: "why the fear of mentioning Bush and Cheney....Suddenly, because it's a Republican administration you people are fine with the government taping our phones without getting warrants?"

I don't have a problem with the government expanding its powers to defend American citizens in a time of war. As a child growing up during the Cold War I had to put up with those "duck and cover" drills too, you know.

But I definitely do have a problem with doing all this on the personal say-so of Bush and Cheney, over the objections of both the legislative and judicial branches of government. The Bush Administration has actually claimed that the one resolution passed by Congress after 9-11, authorizing military action against the terrorists, justifies EVERY action they take against terrorism from then on, all over the world, even here in America.

It takes a VERY twisted reading of the Constitution to claim that a single congressional resolution authorizing military action in Afghanistan (not even a formal declaration of war) becomes a carte blanche for the Executive Branch to exercise virtually unlimited power everywhere else as well.

I've asked my fellow conservatives if they think that the Bush Administration has the right to go to war against Iran without congressional approval or even congressional notification, and most of them answered YES.

That's because loyal Republicans still like Bush and Cheney personally and trust them.

But our Founding Fathers didn't believe that government should depend on personal trust in a "man on a white horse." That's why they put all those checks and balances in the Constitution--checks and balances that the Bushies seem to regard as obstacles to be bulldozed away.

So I'm not necessarily opposed to everything Bush did. I would feel much better about those things if more folks who weren't loyal Bushies confirmed those things were necessary and right.


Steve L
Very impressive analysis. I admire people that are far better (then I am) at making clear, concise thoughts, easily understood about what the role of government ought to be.
It seems to me we are caught in a vise (that is the American people) between two big government parties. One that wants to legislate "fairness" in everything we do, and the other "morality". Both agendas are divisive, and can only lead to the destruction of freedom. The question is what can we do?
Furthermore your calling out of Stoic Patriot is classic. In addition to wanting be the Federal Morality Police. He's big advocate of command economies, via the planning of a Central Bank. I guess being an economist, well versed in "Econometric theory". I guess he has to justify this "pro-statist" position to himself too.
Luckily we had true "patriots" at the founding of our nation, that truly knew what it meant to sacrifice everything they had, including their lives in some cases. Rather then ones that molded their agendas, around the concepts of liberty.

SteveL
I haven't hidden anything.

Actually, the Federal Government always has its level of power since it is the sovereign. Whether or not it always exercises that power is another matter.

I don't want minimalist government. I want government limited in the sense that it is limited by its own laws. Past that, I don't subscribe to a principle of limited government, nor do I see any point in doing so. Assign responsibilities for government where it can be best handled (military at the national level, education at the local level), but by no means is government the enemy. The government, remember, is comprised of the people that *we* elect. Why the heck would we vote a bunch of people into office only to fight any and every capacity they have to affect change? Seems downright stupid to me.

If you want to know why people ran away from Republicans, it was because of:

- Excessive spending (big government can exist without this occurring)
- Bribery, corruption, and pork (can exist at any level of government)
- War in Iraq (something we've struggled to simply make a case on)
- Illegal immigration (a failure to uphold the law)

We were hardly chased out because of being "big government," but because of betraying basic moral principles, and acting like "drunken sailors" as McCain says

Georgie1
I don't suppose you're aware of the fact that there are things known as market failures, are you? That externalities are real, existent economic losses and benefits which it's perfectly reasonable for government to correct? That there exist problems of misinformation and dysinformation that hamper market transactions? That sometimes due to massive economies of scale in certain industries, they are natural monopolies or that many markets are either oligopolistic or monopolistically competitive rather than perfectly competitive?

Having a central bank which controls a single national currency is quite sensible. A common store of value and medium of exchange is remarkably beneficial to an economy because it permits an easy flow of trade, rather than hampering it as you wish to do. I laugh whenever I hear people talking about the benefits of free trade, yet would wish to destroy a very enabling means of engaging in that trade.

Georgie 2
I also said I was well-versed in econometrics, yes, which you apparently deny as a field as I saw in a thread weeks ago, but obviously reveals that you are poorly versed in economic theory - otherwise you would know that it is a legitimate sub-branch of economics, and perhaps is the most well-informed of all economic sub-branches as it is also the most scientific in nature, basing its inductions off of mathematical models rather than whimsically playing with a priori reasoning and hoping the conclusions pan out. I would hope someone such as yourself would realize that economics is by itself a praxeological field - not a field for advocacy. Advocacy should be informed by economics, but the two should not be confused.

Lastly, I am not an advocate of a centrally planned economy. I do not support crushing the commercial banking sector. I do not support crushing private enterprise. I do not support the use of a national "plan" for all employment which dictates the conduct of all transactions between entities, and arbitrary setting of price levels, nor do I wish to force people into certain professions. If you want to use a term like "command economies," at least have the decency to know what it is you're talking about.

Propaganda
Stop using the propaganda terms and maybe the voters will wake up. Most voters are not reading everyting available. Most are convinced with propaganda terms. Forget parties. Go for the the reuw description of their beliefs and voting record. Examples below. The propaganda term followed by their true definition

Propaganda(Liberal) = Socialist
Propaganda(Prgressive) = Socialist
Propoganda(Neoconservative)= Socialist, likes war to spread so called democracy

Stoic Patriot
As far as "market failures" we have argued those points before. The Fed i.e., the Central Bank caused the Great Depression, which was fair worse then any other previous downturn. Even Bernake admits it. Additionally I gave you a whole history of Central Bank created malinvestment, which lead to other "market failures" in nearly every decade since the creation of the Federal Reserve.

Monopolies only exist by law. In a free market economy, monopolies would not exist, while there maybe temporary periods, where one firm has competitive advantages, and hence market share. Without regulated barriers to entry, there would always be other firms entering the market, and that would drive prices down.

Finally, yes you are a Keynesian trained economist, while I dropped out of college to enlist in Marines. But you make my argument for me. Why do we need a bunch of empirical, macro-economic data, if you are not an advocate of a planned economy, as you say you are? Perhaps if you worked for a large corporation, you might need some data, as it relates to planning your particular industry. Nothing wrong with the study of micro-economics in that case. But to gather a bunch of stats, trends, and hypothesis, in order to plan how much money to print, or how much interest to charge. Is a PLANNED economy.

talentscout - not forgive
You are not forgiven, because you are wrong. I am not unlearned. I'm apparently better versed in U.S. history than you are. If you had read my analysis, however ignorant you may think it, there was no hatred to be found, particularly toward Jefferson.

The D of I was poetry, meant to move the heart, not the mind. It is wrong in some of its basic premises, such as equality. I am no socialist because I HATE equality. It was the bane of the 20th century. It has been used to justify the despicable hamstringing of the superior to spare the feelings of the inferior. And I'm not talking race. The greatest thing about the Founding Fathers is that introduced the concept of individual liberty to the cause of revolution. The French didn't. The Russians didn't. They were all about levelling the playing field and *making* people equal.

The Founding Fathers weren't perfect; Franklin was a moral despot (brilliant inventor and politician). Jefferson was a liberal (but an eloquent author). Adams was, largely, what we would call today an *ss*h*le (thank goodness). Too many of the Founding Fathers were globalists, not seeing the danger of thinking everybody the same.

Continued
Clearing up the French connection:

I never said the French defeated the British or handed us a nation. But their *power* enabled us to take the *action* to win our independence.

100,000 brown bess muskets. Financing. Political maneuvering. The fleet at Yorktown. The threat of war with France. All these powers that France used in our favor gave us the ability to win, eventually.

No backward nation has ever been able to defeat a technologically advanced nation without outside help.

"Slavery was instituted in America
BY MERCHANTS
Legalized by the British Crown, and we have idi0ts like jdw who blame the men who fought slavery like Jefferson and calling the Declaration of Independence "poetry"."
Which of us is the socialist?
"Without such men as Jefferson you dummy, the black man in America would still be slaves under the British Crown, the ones who legalized it and brought it into existence."
You think this would have been a bad thing, I take it.
The same people who were so rabid about ending slavery had no problem working children to death in their factories. Free children. Of their own race, of course. So much better to have slaves whose chains are made of coin and who must manage their own food and shelter.
Google "Barbary Pirates" and "Lepanto". I'm tired of you saying how the British merchants invented the slave trade. As early as the 14th century moslems from Africa and the middle-east were taking Christian slaves. Jefferson began the halt of the Barbary Pirates (while giving the U.S. its first lethal betrayal of an ally), which is to his credit. That he kept trying to raise a coalition to do so makes him all the more like the Bushes.



Just too stupid to argue with
jdw writes: Tuesday, September, 25, 2007 3:35 AM
talentscout - not forgive
You are not forgiven, because you are wrong. I am not unlearned. I'm apparently better versed in U.S. history than you are. If you had read my analysis, however ignorant you may think it, there was no hatred to be found, particularly toward Jefferson.

The D of I was poetry, meant to move the heart, not the mind.
-----------------

I will not even give this crap an ounce of dignity with anymore than already given.
Anyone who thinks the D of I is "poetry" is an idiot

Georgie
Yes, the Federal Reserve *can* ruin things. Excessively tight or loose monetary policy can have bad effects. Then again, appropriately targeted countercyclical policy can also prevent market collapses and massive inflation.

Monopolies would naturally exist, regardless. I suggest you look at electricity, water, or any other major utility. The economies of scale are simply too great that it fundamentally alters the market. Additionally, any natural resource located solely within a single entity's boundaries or property would provide it with a monopoly.

Firms do not simply keep entering the market if upfront fixed costs are prohibitive, or if there exist sufficient collusive incentives on the part of other existent firms to engage in "predatory pricing." There is a game theoretic aspect. Competitive markets only work if any incentive to cooperate cannot be sustained as a Nash equilibrium.

I am hardly a Keynesian. The Keynesians believe in using fiscal policy to shift the aggregate demand curve until the point that they believe it will reach the "full employment" level of supply, after which point the supply curve becomes effectively vertical.

What I do *is* microeconomics. That's what the FDA targets, particular industries, such as say animal feed for instance. In terms of macroecon, the Federal Reserve cannot decide how much interest they wish to charge. The only respect in which they can do that is with the discount window. They target the federal funds rate, but there's the key: they do not impose direct control. No broker has to sell them bonds or purchase bonds from them. The Fed makes them available, and in so doing, know they can achieve various effects, but in the end it's still ultimately a voluntary set of transactions (unlike say China, which by law packs its commercial banks with bad loans, and will likely have to save their sorry butts).

Nice
Well… I visit your website first time and found this site very useful and interesting! Well… you guys doing nice work and I just want to say that keep rocking and keep it up!!!!
Barbara
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