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Sunday, September 09, 2007
Ken Connor :: Townhall.com Columnist
Evangelicals must stay the course
by Ken Connor
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There are reports of a growing disaffection for politics among American evangelicals. This should come as no surprise.

"Values voters", many of whom pinned their hopes for cultural transformation on politics, have suffered a series of bitter disappointments. Some of these disappointments have names, not the least of which include Tom Delay, Jack Abramoff, Mark Foley, and Larry Craig. Additionally, the lack of meaningful progress in eliminating abortion, the collapse of the campaign to pass a Federal Marriage Amendment, the explosion of congressionally approved "earmarks", and wanton spending by the Federal legislature—all of which occurred while Republicans, of all people, controlled the White House and the Congress—have also contributed to the current malaise. There is also the matter of the war in Iraq which many feel is being prosecuted poorly by the President in whom they initially reposed great confidence.

The danger, of course, is that evangelicals, who are known to suffer from what Howard Hendricks described as the "peril of the pendulum", will abandon their engagement in the public square and retreat pietistically to their prayer closets.

Lest we forget, however, it was the fruit born of a lack of civic engagement by people of faith that propelled evangelicals into the political arena. For decades in America, there was little organized involvement by evangelicals in the public square. Politics was deemed a "dirty business." Christians were discouraged from sullying themselves with such base and worldly pursuits. Pietism prevailed over politics.

Into that vacuum crept the indicia of an increasingly secularized society—abortion on demand, an explosion of sexually transmitted diseases, public schools stripped of prayer and hostile to religious expression, to name just a few. Awakened from their slumber by the likes of Jerry Falwell, Cal Thomas, Paul Weyrich, and others, evangelicals scarcely recognized their country. The Moral Majority was born, and in its wake followed groups that proudly advertised their faith-based roots, such as the Christian Action Council, the Christian Coalition, and The Center for Reclaiming America for Christ. Evangelicals became a political force to be reckoned with and provided the decisive margin of victory in a number of elections. The efforts of this brand of faith-based political engagement were so successful, the movement was dubbed the "Christian Right" by its adversaries. Intended as a pejorative term, Falwell and others wore the moniker with pride.

As the Christian Right "matured", however, it began to downplay its "Christian" distinctive. In order to achieve a more broad-based appeal, the movement increasingly described itself as "pro-life" and "pro-family." And with its increasing emphasis on direct mail, grass roots organization, and get out the vote campaigns, it became more and more difficult to distinguish the Christian Right from the rest of the political pack. The names of evangelical leaders became household words, and they were increasingly in demand as political, rather than spiritual, commentators.

Evangelicals became such a large part of the political landscape that they became known as the "base" of the Republican Party. And they became inextricably intertwined with the GOP and the Bush Administration. Now, however, the Grand Old Party has become increasingly identified with serial scandals involving pedophilia and bathroom sex, and in the wake of Mr. Bush's plummeting popularity, many evangelicals are scratching their heads and wondering how it all came to this. They are utterly embarrassed and sorely tempted to return to their prayer closets.

To do so would be a mistake.

Evangelicals would do well to remember the following:

First, notwithstanding human advances, man remains sinful and power still corrupts. There was a reason, after all, that the Founding Fathers embraced the concept of "separation of powers." They did not want to concentrate too much power in the hands of flawed human beings. They were not naïve about the nature of human beings or politics, and we should not be either. We should expect that the results of human frailty will surface in the political arena no less so than other areas of life. As James Madison observed in Federalist #51, "If men were angels, no government would be necessary." But even those who govern are infected with the same sin nature that caused us all to be in need of a savior.

Second, retreat is not an option. G. K. Chesterton rightly noted, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." He also pointed out that "[t]he fate of good men who refuse to get involved in politics is to be ruled by evil men." (Were he here today, I am sure that he would doubtless be gender neutral and use the word "people" instead of "men.") Human experience has proved Chesterton right over and over again. When Christians hide their light under a bushel, the world goes dark—very dark. Jesus' admonition to his followers to be salt and light is no less applicable today than when first he uttered it 2000 years ago.

Third, Christians should be committed to principle in the public square, over party or personality. Principles are timeless and enduring (that's why they are called principles!). Right principles do not disappoint. People and parties do. Principled engagement in the public square requires that we apply the same standard to both Democrats and Republicans. We should affirm members of both parties who affirm our principles and we should exhort members of both parties who don't. Double standards invite criticisms of hypocrisy and duplicity. If we consistently cling to our principles, we will have clear consciences and be able to weather any political storm.

Fourth, we must not weary in well doing. It takes time to reform a culture. We didn't get into this mess overnight and we won't get out of it quickly. William Wilberforce labored for decades to end the slave trade in the British Empire. Though mocked and ridiculed for his efforts by fellow members of Parliament and by the powerful special interests of his time, he clung to his principles and his faith. In the end, he was successful and the world was changed for the better.

Fifth, expect opposition and ridicule. The Savior encountered it. As his servants, we are not exempt from it. The servant is not better than his master. (See Matt. 10:24)

Finally, we should reflect on Jesus' example. The writer of Hebrews understood the natural tendency on the part of people who experience opposition or persecution for their faith to become discouraged. He offered a surefire antidote for discouragement by exhorting Christ's followers to "fix our eyes on Jesus…who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame.… Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men that you will not grow weary and lose heart." (Heb. 12:2-3, NIV)

Tempting though it may be for evangelicals to drop out of the race and to repair to the sidelines, we must stay the course. There are many more laps to run. May God grant that when we have finished the race we will hear the words, "Well done good and faithful servant.… Enter into the joy of your Master." (Matt. 25:21, ESV)

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About The Author
Ken Connor is Chairman of the Center for a Just Society in Washington, DC.
 
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GOP
You make a few good points. However there is currently no political party that can be trusted. Each elected official, I purposefully did not say reprehensive, is more interested in remaining in power. Prime example, my congressional district has a new congressman. I have written to him and he did not even bother to acknowledge my correspondence. But why should he, I am not a big contributor just a common guy making a living. Nope I made the mistake of trusting Pres Bush. but he turned out to be just another political hack. Speaks the talk. But doesn’t walk . No big stick here, just cow-towing to the Lib democrats and the Rinoes. His presidency is such a disgrace that any true republican or conservative in either party. can support him.. You say we need to continue the race. I say the race to save conservatism is long over. We have met the enemy and been roundly defeated. Socialism is now our form of government. Why bother to even try to for a competent , intelligent, trustworthy candidate. Like it says. A leopard can’t change it’s spots. Neither can politicians change their objectives. All for me and mine and the nation be damned.

Well Robert
I see that you've been keeping your subscriptions to the Daily Kook, Huff and Puff, Democrat Sewer Dwellers and Bowelmovement.org up to date.
Why don't you go post your "original" nonsense like "American Taliban" there and leave us adults to have an intelligent conversation without you children interrupting.

Bloody nonsense....
--
Let's boil it down to the essentials:

First, there's only one political party running government in America today. I've heard it described as the Permanent Institutional Incumbent Party (PIIP), and I think it fits.

Second, the nominal factions in the PIIP (properly called DemaGOP and Republicrat to emphasize the fact that there's not a damned bit of difference between 'em once you get down to the basics of graft, corruption, and blatant contempt for the U.S. Constitution) are wonderfully "bipartisan" in every important aspect of policy and procedure.

Third, the ideological "core constituencies" of each faction are set in concrete. The leaders of each faction can take these "dedicated voters" for granted, and treat them with nothing but lip service during the election cycle. If that.

Fourth, the "Evangelicals" are perhaps *THE* most contemptible "core constituency" in the country. Everybody knows that they're going to vote Republicrat no matter how horribly the Party of Smoot-Hawley behaves, or what sorts of scheming reptiles they run as candidates.

That's because the "Evangelicals" view the DemaGOP faction as Satan's Army on Earth.

Not that they're wrong, of course.

So why should "Evangelicals" expect *ANYTHING* substantive of either faction in the great and glorious PIIP, hm?

The DemaGOPs know that you won't vote for them, so they factor your opposition into everything they do.

The Republicrats know that you *will* vote for them, even if they shove a pro-cannibalism plank into their platform next year. So they factor your support (in contributions, campaign work, and votes) into everything *they* do.

You're suckered, folks.

Always have been, always will be.

Have fun.


--
"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope."

..-- P. J. O'Rourke

Being taken for granted.
It is fashionable these days to ridicule people of faith. And there is no denying that horrible atrocities were committed by people in the name of religion.

But, the trackrecord of regimes and philosophies who deny the existence of God, who make religion a crime, in the 20th century are replete with human slaughters, from Stalin through Pol Pot.

I have problems with SOME evangelicals, but to assert they all march in lock-step is wrong.

I have a friend who saw combat in Vietnam. He is an evangelical, born again Christian. One might think he supports the president on Iraq, but he doesn't. He believes it was a grave mistake to have invaded.

Stereotyping and "generalizing" frequently does contain a kernal or more of truth, but care should be exercised to not rely exclusively on such approaches to people.

Blacks do vote democrat 85-90%, and recent history confirms evangelicals of all races tend to support Bush and GOP.

But in the case of evangelicals, that dynamic is changing(which is healthy).


The only "bloody nonsense"
I have read in this thread is SJ Doc's nihilistic rant.

Mr. Conner correctly mentions that progress will be slow. Nevertheless, progress has occurred primarily at the state level regarding pro-life and pro-marriage issues.

Furthermore, the Christian Right or Moral Majority is the vanguard of the anti-socialistic voting block. From that perspective alone, I pray that Evangelicals "stay the course."

Christian vote
Why are Pelosi and Reid in power today? Because Christians voted for candidates who said the things they wanted to hear, but by voting for those Democrats, Christians empowered Pelosi and Reid. Politics is flithy and despicable. Mr. Conner, there is no course to stay. What is the difference between these two disgusting parties. The Republican candiates have either cheated on their wives, been divorced and remarried, never served in the military nor any of their sons. I don't understand your reasoning. Reagen and the Bushes used our vote to get in power, but all we got was lip service. Our current President is a family man as long as his family is Mexicans.

voting
hey guys, do we want more roberts, hals and vans in power. that alone will get me to the voting booth. those guys are the worst america has to offer

it makes me laugh
when people like robert talk about christians forcing their faith on him, but it's ok for him to force his god " moral relativity " on us. these are the people we need to defeat folks.

G. K. Chesterton
Good article.
Please note in your point 2, that G. K. Chesterton was refering to a statement I belive was from Edmund Burke, English statesman and political philosopher (1729-1797) when he noted, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

I do not know if Edmund Burke was the first, but he is cited in several references and was before GKC.

Good Article
I agree with Connor’s. Christians have as much of a responsibility as anyone to see that there voice is heard.

This country has been lost to liberals by default. Those who don’t agree with Christian ideology forget that we are citizens also. We have families, we pay taxes, we loose lives serving this nation.

It’s sad that the lib’s get the impression that Christians are shoving morality down there throats while they shove immorality down our throats.

Mankind is free to choose, but choices don’t always produce good outcomes. When those choices affect all of us, than Christians have a responsibility to stand there ground.

marc
You have put me in the voting booth for sure. I'd rather have B Hussein O or RINO Rudy than any of those you mention.

People in power love religion...
...because religious people are so easy to manipulate.

They've already been conditioned like one of Pavlov's dogs to believe in absurd notions, so all a politician has to do is lower his voice a half octive and mention Jesus a couple of times and he generates quite a few automatic votes. Of course,in reality, he is working in the best interest of his big doners instead of the people who elected him.

There is only one issue which should matter to any of us right now, ethics and corruption. As it stands now our elected officials, both Democrats and Republicans, are nothing but whores who will do any disgusting thing as long as there is money on the night table.

So, any action they take is suspect, since we never know what monied interest is paying for them.


Painful lesson.

Ken, really great commentary.

But some evangelicals do indeed, and way too often, suffer from an EXTREME case of the "piety syndrome". Like as in - not too bright.

Jesus taught his followers also to be very shrewd in a fallen world, to be fully engaged in it, but not to become of it.

Yet, so many simply refuse to learn the profound lesson that "the perfect is the enemy of the good".

In other words... if my candidate doesn't fully measure up, I'm outa there.

Do any of these moral giants even realize that they are then voting FOR the opposition... by default?

Obviously... and tragically... not.

And friends, don't worry about "Christian-bashers".

Because it's really not a theocracy they fear.

What they fear and resent - is being judged, by anybody... or anything.

Simply, they want their goodies, and to be in charge... without any costs.









Nope..
"Because it's really not a theocracy they fear."

...it really is theocracy that we fear, and anyone who loves our country should fear it too. After all, Jeffereson and Madison feared it. They saw the corrosive influence of state religion in Europe and didn't want it for their new country. So, we have the First Amendment, the amendment which makes the USA possible.




for fsudenny
fsudenny writes: "Furthermore, the Christian Right or Moral Majority is the vanguard of the anti-socialistic voting block."

Here we see EXACTLY what has gone wrong with conservatism in the last 20 years: It is now become axiomatic that to be a good conservative, you must be a good devout Christian.

And that lets out non-Christians like me who are definitely conservative on economic issues and national defense but who do NOT consider Jesus to be our prophet and savior. It lets out citizens who have a more libertarian "live and let live" attitude toward how one lives his personal life. It lets out Jews, atheists, Hindus, Muslims, and others. It lets out gays, lesbians, single moms and others of alternative lifestyles who support economic conservatism and even a hawkish foreign policy but who don't want to be lectured on how they live their own lives.

And in a country growing steadily more diverse, it will tend to confine conservatism to just one cohort of an increasingly diverse American electorate.

As a conservative, I'm happy to be part of a broad political coalition that includes you.

But I don't want to be LED by you.

infidel57

Nope...

It is the fear of the government creating a "state religion" or curtailing the free exercise thereof.

But nice try.

Stevel
I haven't read much of your stuff because what i'd read seemed not of interest. Your claim to be a conservative is interesting. You seem to be under the influence of divisive left wing disinformation that all conservatives are theocratists. I am a conservative tithing Christian, and have never met one. I am well aware that a person's spiritual life is extremely private, and i am certainly irked by those, both secular and devout who tell me what mine should be. This attitude is the prevailing one where i worship. I am delighted to have another conservative voter around. If you will check the posts of the most prolific and vociferous conservative contributors, you will be hard-pressed to find one who would reject your vote. There are some evangelists and i can understand how they might be irksome. They tend to be good people, just as the vast majority on the left are good people. When a politician stands for conservative principles, i neither include nor exclude him on theological grounds. Its got to be a big tent. Who do you like for next president?

ScottK
These are what I call "prayaboutits," they forget about the log/mote admonition of Jesus.
I'm an Evangelical and I DO NOT march in lock step with anyone BUT Jesus. This is saying that because we have strong faith, we are too stupid to understand anything.
The church is very much to blame for the condition of this culture, years ago the pastorate had no problem of publicly decrying sin, but after that wonderful paragon of virtue
and honesty, LBJ snuck in the 1954 amendment to a bill without any hearings, the IRS was able to intimidate the church, thus the Gospel, thus
the culture. AND the church cowered under it's collective pews. Where were they when God was expelled from school, and when SCOTUS declared
war on the unborn? With some exceptions, silent.
The church has to stop serving two masters if we are to ever have a decent society again and one
way to start is to refuse the tax exemption which gives the IRS power of the church.
And as to cynics on these threads that its time
to turn out the lights, the AMerican party is over..the rallying cry of the Revolution was "No
King but Jesus." The church must get back in their prayer closets (as well as the voting booth) because we are toast unless we have another Great Awakening. God is judging this nation, you'd think 9-11 would have been the wake up call for longer than a week.

Whoops
Not very good at proofreading, make that "refuse the tax exemption which gives the IRS power over
the church.

How about having....
....every new Republican candidate read and comment on Psalm 119 verse 1:

"Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the Lord."

Republican incumbents should also be asked if the verse means anything to them, and then ask them to go on record with their response. Then let the voters decide.

I don't care if a politician may have had a personally corrupt past, within reason, as long as they have demonstrated humility by confession, answered for their misdeads, and have solid references as to their positive change.

Listening to political sales pitches, see also stump speeches, is one thing, but asking a candidate what philosophy governs their daily lives is the most critical thing.

correction......
It's "misdeeds", not "misdeads".

Sorry folks, and....sheesh!

foxfire22
Hiya!

You "I agree with Connor’s. Christians have as much of a responsibility as anyone to see that there voice is heard."

I agree with that. O'Connor gives some good advice, and not just for Evangelicals, but for anyone.

Still, to his "Third, [people] should be committed to principle in the public square, over party or personality" I would add also principle over value and virtue, as in conservative liberty as a principle over liberal public good.

I would also add a seventh piece of advice in the form of a question: Why did the early Evangelicals, the Baptists and Presbyterians, side with Jefferson in the debate during ratification over keeping God out of the Constitution?

Evangelicals are Sinners w/ little Faith
Evangelicals are no better than the thief on the cross. What is an Evangelical? A Christian? Catholics (all kinds), Protestants, Methodist, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Pentecostal, LDS, Seventh Day, Christian Scientist?

ONE "NO-NAME" RELIGION CALLING THE SHOTS IN POLITICS, REPUBLICANS IN PARTICULAR, THAT’S DANGERIOUS. The bible warns about faults prophets.

Religious people should spread the good news, thru charity, prayer and proselytizing, NOT POLITICS. Do you have so little faith?

Do the words Sunni, Shiite and Kurd mean anything. They are fighting over Mohammad.

Religion has no place in POLITICS. The wisdom is a foundation of democracy but not politics. Taliban stoned gays and any one that did not follow their version or Islam. Some Evangelicals secretly admire the idea of public stoning of gays and abortion Docs.

For all anti-abortion folks DON’T HAVE YOUR OWN BABIES and start adopting unwanted babies, than I might believe you. We'll have an explosion of crack babies to Mothers who can’t afford to take "vacations" abroad. Abortions will not stop. Sad but true. Use God not politics to change this.

Talk about telling people how to live. That is not American.

Evangelicals Jim Baker, Jim Swaggart, Ted Haggard and Republican sinners are in charge of morals> ha-ha.

The LEADERS of Christianity are IN THE CHURCH NOT D.C.

You can't legislate morality.

American is land of Free, free from religion and religious dogma even; deal with it.

As a Christian I’m appalled at other so called Evangelicals who have so little FAITH in GOD that they think they MUST FORCE people to follow God by mans LAW.

Its by faith alone, free will, not forced. Forced is the Taliban and Al Qaeda way. Ye of little fath.

PUT YOUR FAITH IN GOD NOT REPUBLICANS!

Conner forgot the most important point
Evangelicals need to put their faith in God not in men (or women for that matter). Solving the nations problems by electing the right people will never happen.

The nation will not be turned around at the ballot box, but on our knees. With that in mind, elect the right people. If the right people aren't running, don't elect the wrong people and wonder why they don't get the job done.

Evangelicals must stay the course
I hope this is true as then the evangelicals can become irrelevant as they should be in the political landscape of a secular society that does not glean, nor need, to get its values and morals from an unauthenticated ancient text which is anything but moral.

An old bumper sticker from the 80's is recalled:

"The Moral Majority, is neither"

The greater the Republican or Democrat who speaks from a religious platform, which inherently discriminates all other religious beliefs and those that don't believe, the greater the opportunity to vote in someone who knows and understands how to govern without such prejudice and speak to ALL AMERICANS.

Yes, please, by all means, stay the course, we'll all be awaiting the next sanctimonious bible beater to fall from your grace.

Religion Belongs in the Public Square
Excellent article, Mr. Conner.
Christians stayed out of politics for so many years brcause they believed it was a "dirty job". Well, maybe it is but you can't let those who oppose your values & principles be the only ones doing that job. We must all stay involved & as Christians, we must continue to pray for our country as well as hold our beliefs strongly. The man or woman we vote for should have the same principles / values we have, whether he/she is Republican, Democrat or Independent.
People should stop & think about the founders of this great country. They all had a strong belief in God & most were Christians. Today, we are allowing an Arabic "Public School" to operate in NYC .. what are they teaching? You can't have a Jewish or Christian "Public School" but we can have an Arabic one? What has happened in the USA when high school / college grads can't tell you about the history of our country & it's beginnings? That is why we MUST contiue to PRAY but definitely VOTE for the best person .. whoever that is.

A Failed Prophet and A Non-Historian
Last night I did some reading on David Barton, a major Evangelical voice. He appears to be a charlatan. First, he represents himself (and others represent him) as a historian. FACT: he has no credentials as a historian---he has a BA in Religious Education from Oral Roberts University and an honorary doctorate from Pensacola Christian University. His only academic experience consists of teaching math in a Christian school that is part of the church his parents founded.

Second, he has published books and papers making the claim that the United States was founded as a Christian nation and that our Founding Fathers were committed Christians. FACT: the many quotations Barton has provided from our Founding Fathers have been exposed as fabrications and distortions by legitimate history scholars, and Barton has admitted that some of his quotations are bogus. BTW Barton's work is published by Wallbuilders, a publishing company which he himself established (one wonders who put up the money). Barton's "detailed research" is nonsense.

Barton has been retained by the GOP and has provided hundreds of speeches and workshops to Evangelical pastors. He spearheads the Christian Reconstructionist movement which wants to rewrite American history and establish the US as a Christian, not a secular, state. Although much of his work has been proved to be based on historical lies, still he is widely quoted and believed in Christian Right-wing circles.

Religion Belongs in the Public Square
No it does not. Religion in any political square is discriminatory in its precepts.

Not all people have a religion, or believe in your FORM of religion or god, nor should they be discounted in the political arena.

We are a nation within a Rule of Law, not religion. You would do well to understand for yourself that this foundation protects not only you but those that don't believe as you do.

infidel57
infidel57 writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 10:46
People in power love religion...
...because religious people are so easy to manipulate.

They've already been conditioned like one of Pavlov's dogs to believe in absurd notions, so all a politician has to do is lower his voice a half octive and mention Jesus a couple of times and he generates quite a few automatic votes. Of course,in reality, he is working in the best interest of his big doners instead of the people who elected him.

There is only one issue which should matter to any of us right now, ethics and corruption. As it stands now our elected officials, both Democrats and Republicans, are nothing but whores who will do any disgusting thing as long as there is money on the night table.

So, any action they take is suspect, since we never know what monied interest is paying for them.

FOXFIRE RESPONSE:

Your comment directed toward Christians, I assume Christians are the religious group that you are referring too, is much to general.

I scrutinize very carefully what I hear, and don’t jump on anyone’s band wagon without knowing where it’s going.

All Christians don’t come from the hills of some ignorant part of the country. Many of them are doctors, lawyers, professors, scientists, generals.

Perhaps you think that the football player that got religion after killing his dogs, Ms Hillary, and the rest of these yahoo’s are fooling the Christians, but they aren’t.

Stupid is stupid, you don’t have to be religious to be stupid.

Christians aren't blind, and they aren't all stupid.

For once I would like someone to evaluate a christian from a biblical view point instead of the way some of them represent themselves.

You have every right to challenge any Christian for not living up to a bible discription of a Christian, but please get your discription from the bible, not from what you see at work or on the street.

Some of these people embarrass me and Jesus Christ.



lilly - About Barton's ''credentials''
--
Is there professional licensing for historians?

You know I'm a fan of H.L. Mencken (the gleeful tormentor of "Evangelicals" throughout his long and fruitful career), who enraged the academics by publishing *The American Language* in its various editions through the later part of his life, establishing what is still the single most authoritative work on American philology ever uttered.

And Mencken never even went to college, much less got his Ph.D. union card.

So much for "no credentials."

If this Barton clown wants to call himself a "historian," who's to say he's not?

Hell, the flamingly plagiaristic Stephen Ambrose (much beloved of "social conservatives" who are effectively illiterate in military history) is still considered a "historian," isn't he?

Attack, instead, the validity of Barton's observations and conclusions in whatever forms you have found them uttered.

Jeez, these "Liberals"....


--
"To be ignorant of what happened before you were born is to be ever a child. For what is man's lifetime unless the memory of past events is woven with those of earlier times?"

..-- Marcus Tullius Cicero

foxfire22 - Oh?
--
"Christians aren't blind, and they aren't all stupid."

Not all, certainly.

But enough to serve the purposes of the Republicrat leadership, assuredly.


--
"The great trouble with religion - any religion - is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence. One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak certainty of reason - but one cannot have both."

..-- Robert A. Heinlein


jetpilot
jetpilot writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 3:16 PM
ONE "NO-NAME" RELIGION CALLING THE SHOTS IN POLITICS, REPUBLICANS IN PARTICULAR, THAT’S DANGERIOUS. The bible warns about faults prophets.

Religious people should spread the good news, thru charity, prayer and proselytizing, NOT POLITICS. Do you have so little faith?

Do the words Sunni, Shiite and Kurd mean anything. They are fighting over Mohammad.

Religion has no place in POLITICS.

FOXFIRE RESPONSE:

I’m not sure that I understand what you are suggesting.

Someone is going to make decisions on the direction a nation takes. Are you suggesting that Evangelicals should take no part in the political process?

We as Americans have not only a right, but a responsibility to play a part in the political process.
The people that we elect to office are people that should reflect our views on issues.
Those views should be reflected in policy. How do you suggest that take place without involvement?

I’m sorry to have to agree that Christians do have little faith, but that’s not Gods fault.
We as a nation view Christians from a national view point.

If you go to China, Korea, other very poor nations you will see a very different Christian.
You will see something worth considering.
You can’t call what you see in this country a fair representation of Christianity.

I happen to agree that it’s not proper for me to force my faith on you, or interfere with your right to practice what ever belief that you want.

But, to suggest that I don’t have a right to expect those who represent me in Washington to fight for morality is ridicules.

I have a duty to support that which is right. I don’t necessarily have to be Christian to know what is morally right.
Just because I happen to be a Christian doesn’t mean that I should withdraw.

scooternyc - Sure, ''religion belongs''
--
..."in any political square."

And most assuredly religion "is discriminatory."

Well, so are the "Liberals." Irrationality tends to be, doesn't it?

The religious whackjob has (in America) the perfect right to profess his/her faith anywhere that a reasonable man may profess the idiocy of faith.

So could I enter a public school and speak to the kiddies about all the warts and ulcers raddling the various religious faiths - from the Albigensians to Zoroastrianism - to immunize them against religious proselytization of whatever sort - so might the Christian whackjobs preently screaming for your blood on this thread.

But I can't, can I? The public schools are not open to educational indoctrination departing from the curriculum determined by the standards painfully evolved to comply with the law of the land (particularly Amendment I of the U.S. Constitution). My aggressively anti-religious bias is not consistant with those standards.

But, then, neither is theirs.

If religious idiots want to proclaim their faith in other public fora where freedom of speech is not constrained by rules such as those which nominally permit the public school system to maintain the illusion of constitutionality (even though that pretense, ab ovo, is a load of crap), and they're not making a public nuisance of themselves, they're perfectly free to do so.

They're just not permitted to enact their religious nonsense into law.

We are, after all, not a Christian nation.

--
"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen...."

..-- Article 11, Treaty of Tripoli (1796), as signed by President George Washington

jetpilot

jetpilot says: "Religion has no place in POLITICS."

There is the first religious test you would impose on the people. If you are religious and believe in Jesus as The Christ, then you cannot vote. And if your vote is founded on Biblical truth instead of man's wisdom, your vote doesn't count.

Sorry, JP, but I take ALL my worldview into that booth when I vote.

If religion has no place in politics, then that statement has to include in addition to the Theism you allude to but also to Darwinism, Atheism, Humanism, and every other 'ism' known to man.

I remember the 50s when we could be out at night and not fear being shot on the front porch because everyone had respect for others. There was some semblance of religion prevalent in the country.

I remember the 60s when all the Hippies challenged any and every institution with the intent of dismantling Society to be remade at their discretion.

every decade since has Amercia sliding farther down the tube because people of faith felt like you and stayed away from politics.

I long for the 50s. I would would be happy to see the pendulum swing ever so slightly to the right before I die. This self destructive attitude of the Left must be stoppped or we have no hope of a future USA.

I just read Kevin McCullough

I want to change my post.

Make the font capital, bold, 96pt font!

hhmmm yawn., , , scratch
jet-pilot in here , , , didn't notice.

I hop Hal old prostate test went well. hear it's the size of a grapefruit.

I just read William Perry Pendley

Change the font to 240pt!!!

Lilly the LYING LOONY LIB is back
Lilly the Lying Loony Lib constantly posts her Socialist rants on TH; so I will post this when ever I see her garbage.

Her posts criticize others, but this Socialist Nut Case never responds when criticized for her ill conceived, inaccurate comments which usually contain distortions or lies. Her head is buried so far into rectal deprivation that she’ll never see the light. At best she’s viewed as just another crackpot Lib and ignored or laughed at. At worst, she’s loathed and bashed for her Communist inspired views and liar she often is. What I can’t understand is why she continues to seek such abuse. Perhaps she’s a masochist or just delusional; thinking she’ll actually convince someone. Perhaps she could if she were reasonably intelligent, rational, and presented well thought out arguments. And perhaps we’d take her more seriously if she ever responded to comments and criticism. But she never does. She never responds to criticism, when confronted with her distortions, half truths and occasional lies. She’s also known as Ms. “Hit & Run” and “The Sea Gull”. She takes a dump and then flies away. But this in itself says something about “Lilly”. As with most Libs, she can’t handle criticism. She never fires back a response because she has no ammunition. There’s a wonderful word for garbage like her: “IGNORANUS” =
IGNORANT, & AN A** HOLE.

Since “Lilly the Lying Loony Lib” probably won’t go away, perhaps it’s best to just ignore her in the hope she’ll crawl back under the rock form which she came. Or to put it another way: Refuse to engage in a battle of wits with the MENTALLY DISARMED.....LMAO

the 50's??
yeah, at least in the 1950's, black folk knew where to sit on a bus, drink from the right water fountains, swim in the correct swimming pools, know not to come to our hospitals and stay in their own schools. And where was the good Christian white folk when all this was changing? Sitting on the sidelines?

none
"Into that vacuum crept the indicia of an increasingly secularized society—abortion on demand, an explosion of sexually transmitted diseases, public schools stripped of prayer and hostile to religious expression, to name just a few."

So, what has the Evangelical input to our democracy brought us? Wars that are killing our children in a quagmire, and self-righteousness one only gets by being against politically the only sins they aren't tempted with,i.e. homosexuality and abortion. Thats why most of their presidential contenders are divorced, chickenhawks, and torture fans. Evangelicals need to stay in their pews, and let the moral Christians once again drive our politics.


The problem with . . .
. . . (some) evangelicals... (some) liberals... Anyone who Seeks Government Authority to Impose Their View of How We Should Live...

They don't understand Freedom. To them "Freedom" means being ~allowed~ to do ~ONLY~ those things that they agree with and/or approve of.

Real Freedom -- the condition, capacity, and free agency to PEACEABLY conduct one's life as he sees fit -- gives Them the heebie-jeebies. The very idea that anyone might be allowed to do something that They don't approve of scares them witless.

>>

"No man has the Natural Right to commit agression against the Equal Rights of another and this is all from which the Law ought to restrain him." -- Thomas Jefferson

BIRDMAN
Excellent points you made to jp

zapdoodat
zapdoodat writes: Sunday, September, 09, 2007 7:58 PM
the 50's??
yeah, at least in the 1950's, black folk knew where to sit on a bus, drink from the right water fountains, swim in the correct swimming pools, know not to come to our hospitals and stay in their own schools. And where was the good Christian white folk when all this was changing? Sitting on the sidelines?

FOXFIRE RESPONSE:

Is there a particular reason why you are addressing Christians on this point.

I lived in that period of time, and I can't remember Christians opposing human rights for blacks. If someone calling themselves a christian abused blacks it sure wasn't scriptural.
This is what I mean when people just throw a statement about christians around without biblical grounds.

I can't recall one verse of scripture that says; " Thou shalt put the blackman in his place".

But I do recall one that says that God is no respecter of persons.

You people will dredge up anything to bash a christian.

Christians were not sitting on the sidelines.



Why can't we enact our "nonsense?"
SJ Doc wrote a denunciation of religion masquerading as a declaration of liberty: Religious people are free to "proclaim their faith in other public fora," according to this ignorant man, but

"They're just not permitted to enact their religious nonsense into law."

Why not?

Laws are enacted by legislators. Legislators are selected by the people, and are free to enact laws as their conscience demands. The Supreme Court improperly imposed the 14th Amendment on state legislatures after the Civil War, so today they can't pass laws that deprive individuals of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. But aside from those restrictions, and the general restrictions of the US Constitution, the legislature can pass laws that say anything they like, based on anything they like.

If the legislature wanted to pass laws based on the Astrology Chart, they are free to do so. If they want to pass laws drawn from random letters selected from Ray Bradbury's "I Sing The Body Electric," they are free to do so. If they want to pass laws in Sanskrit, they are free to do so.

And if they want to pass laws based on Christian or Jewish scripture, they are, likewise, free to do so. The only restriction is the US Constitution, drawing on improper interpretation of the 14th Amendment, and each state's constitution. And none of them makes any religious test of laws.

Sorry, SJ Doc, despite your obvious, sad, and irrational jibbering rage against religion, religious people have the same rights to lobby for, vote in, and enact laws as any other citizen, and you can't stop them.

Oh, and the dishonest historical quotes
SJ Doc, expressing his ignorant hatred of religion along with his clear ignorance of American history, quoted George Washington saying the US is in no way based on the Christian religion.

Of course, the quotation is completely out of context, and I could easily drag in here quotations from the same man indicating that he felt each man's faith was indispensable in their public conduct, including their political conduct. And for each quotation SJ Doc drags up purporting to say this is not a Christian nation, I can drag up another from just as impressive a source saying that it is.

The truth, of course, is somewhere between SJ Doc's irrational bigotry and a Christian theocracy. But no reasonable historian before the mid-20th century would have dared dispute the clear influence of Christianity on every aspect of our nation's founding... and those that do today are open to a charge of bias.

Ours is not a theocracy, and never has been; nor will it ever be, Christ willing. But there isn't a thought embodied in the US Constitution or the Declaration of Independence, nor in any state's Constitution from the revolutionary days, that was not based either directly or indirectly on Christian thinking.

Anybody who doubts this needs to go read chapter 17 of Alexis de Tocqueville's "Democracy in America," a political and sociological analysis written by an intelligent Frenchman in the 1830s. His explanation is clear and accurate.

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/detoc/religion/ch1_17.htm

Salt and light
Believers in Jesus as the Jewish Messiah have an enormous advantage in the fact that the Scriptures are 27% prophetic, with about 80% of prophecy already fulfilled in a literal manner. That being the case, we remain in the market place of ideas to be salt and light to the lost masses. We may impact policy in the short-run, and that is good, but in the long-run, we know how the current scenario is going to play out... One cannot be salt or light by avoiding the political marketplace or any other.

Dan Hennessy

Liberty First
The comments to this article are beginning to sound ridiculous.

Those of you who are supporting your brand of liberty are suggesting that it’s alright to deprive those who hold moral views, whether they are Christian views or not.

You are advocating the same thing that you are accusing evangelicals of.

It’s your right to get drunk, use drugs, have illicit sex, distribute porn, and have abortions, open up society to every perversion know to man, and make it lawful.

But, anyone who is opposed to it is trampling on your liberty.
You’re not bent out of shape over Christian values, you are bent out of shape over moral values period.
Your brand of morals is what you see as appropriate.

The person who goes to work spaced out on drugs kills someone; you just treat it like a drunken driving case. Why? Because we have rights under the Constitution. Without commonsense rules a society decays.

Stop for a moment and analyze your thinking. Can’t you see that it’s not just everyone doing what’s right in his own eyes thing? You don’t do your thing while I do my thing.
It doesn’t work that way.

Someone is going to get walked on here and you would rather it be me than you.

Why do you think that we have Roe vs. Wade and abortion rights, because liberals wanted it that way?

What about the lives taken to give women there right to choose. You can’t hide behind the fetus thing anymore. It’s only a matter of time before science and the Supreme Court rule that it is a life.

I have never advocated pushing someone to convert there beliefs to mine. But I do have a right just as you do to expect certain values to exist in our society.

When a countries value system is destructive to society, rules must be adopted to maintain survival and order. Your right to drink does not give you the right to expose me to the results of your drunkenness.

inkling_revival
You "The truth, of course, is somewhere between SJ Doc's irrational bigotry and a Christian theocracy. But no reasonable historian before the mid-20th century would have dared dispute the clear influence of Christianity on every aspect of our nation's founding... and those that do today are open to a charge of bias."

What a refreshing and honest appraisal! After everyone is done quote mining pro- and con-religion, some of it Christian, you'd find the nation and its founders quite a diverse and complex bunch of people when it comes to religion, politics, science, technology, economics. We've changed since then, but are still just as diverse and complex. There is no dishonesty in the quotes.

But then you reverse yourself with "But there isn't a thought embodied in the US Constitution or the Declaration of Independence, nor in any state's Constitution from the revolutionary days, that was not based either directly or indirectly on Christian thinking."

I won't deny the great influence Christianity has had but neither will I deny the great influence on Christianity of every civilization throughout recorded history and earlier. Christianity is indeed very lower-case catholic in that respect. And one need only read the Federalist Papers, or Anti-Federalist Papers, or Adam Smith, John Locke, David Hume and so many others to see our nation has a much broader foundation than religion.

Any true political conservative,
regardless of his religious or nonreligious affiliation, must recognize that it is virtually impossible for a conservative to win an election without the votes of the Christian Right.

A secular government may seek to neuter religion from the law, but in a free society it cannot neuter the religious perspective of the voter. Therefore, most voters meld their moral views with their political vote. Moral relativists, for example, tend to vote for the more liberal candidate. Christian voters tend to vote for the more conservative candidate.

lonestarblues
Hello my friend,

I like what you say in your last comment.

It amazes me how so many people think that Christians are the only segment of society with a moral spine.
They attribute so much to groups like Moral Majority and others for restraining the morals of the country. Christians have constantly lost ground on moral issues for the past 100 years.

Though the founding fathers may have been influenced by deism, I wouldn’t call it the same thing as evangelicalism or fundamental Christianity.

Perhaps politicians pander to the Christian right to some degree, but no more so than other groups. They are voters that must be pacified like any other.

Politicians must be concerned with 2nd amendment voters as well, but with the hundreds of millions of dollars that the NRA has poured into lobbying, there is very little that I see in accomplishment.
Politicians do what they want when they get in office and they cater to those who are more apt to shell out the money.

That’s why I am amazed that NRA has not had more influence than they have had.

Good to hear from you again.

fsudenny
I Agree

fsudenny
I agree!

EVIL BECOMES US!

The net effect of dogmatic religion is often the opposite of what is intended. George Bush is a prime example.

“Good and evil” is a concept common in religion, morality, ethics and philosophy. Obviously the whole world needs more good and less evil. But is there a practical definition that everyone can agree on and that lends itself to objective measurement. How about: GOOD is something that makes the many human lives better and no or few lives worse, while EVIL is something that makes many lives worse, and no or few lives better.

Measuring George Bush’s actions by this definition with objective facts, our compassionate conservative, Christian President does mostly EVIL: from the Iraq disaster to Katrina mismanagement and incompetence to the politics of division and hate to “no child left behind” (children in extreme poverty up 20% since Bush took office) to the $3 trillion dollar tax giveaway to the rich. Here supply-side (trickle-down) economics is a bogus theory promoted by those who benefit from it. In a mature capitalist system, supply side never rules, it’s always the demand side of the equation that governs growth and well-being. Think about the 1930s Depression, General Motors had plenty of supply, but demand evaporated. Unfortunately, the great middle class sustains America and its greatness, and all they have gotten from Bush economics is trickled on.

What kind of Christian belief system creates a George Bush?

Thank God we’re all “SAVED,” so we can do whatever evil we like!

The real deal is...
and I thought I read this in the column, is Christians need to stay true to believes...not parties...not man. Its all about what He would have use do and be. And...to his glory...not our glory.

Turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in His wonderful face, and the things of earth will grow strangely deem in the light of His glory and grace.


Lesson to Learn
My Mother had a saying I never forgot, get your own house in order before you go around criticizing others.

What happened to the Christian Right is easy diagnose, impossible to correct.

The Christian Right came to power by rallying around the likes of Rush Limbaugh, who makes his reputation and money liberal bashing.

When the Republicans came to power in 2000, elected by values voters, the focus needed to shift from bashing liberals to holding fake Republicans accountable.

But such was not to be. The conservative mind-set has become that of the minority party. Instead the liberal bashing continued unabated, ney, even more amplified.

And the Republican congress spent our money like drunken sailors.

Mark my words. Mud slinging is an important part of politics since time began. But it can't be the foundation. You have to put your own house in order first.

Nothing will change respect to conservative politics as long as conservatives continue to wear the minority mindset. George Bush should've been held accountable years ago. Yet he his going to leave office without so much as a hand slap by those he represents.

Just because liberals hate Bush doesn't mean Bush doesn't need to be held to account.

And that is the problem. You all have wrapped yourself so tightly around the axle being all things not-Liberal, you can no longer think straight.

The number thing that has to change with Republican politics is that Republicans need to hold Republicans accountable more than Democrats.
Save the mudslinging for electioneering and divorce yourself from the constant hatred of your enemy. Jesus said love thy enemy. You should take that to heart and focus and doing what you need to do rather than hating the enemy for doing the wrong the thing at the exclusion of all else.

Manicheism
I strongly suggest you all read Glenn Greenwald's new book, A Tragic Legacy, which details how the Christian world view has virtually eliminated the idea of rational political discussion. The problem with Christians in politics is that they view the world from a fundamentally a-rational position. To them, the TRUTH is already known and therefore there is no need to discuss, compromise, seek accommodation or balance interests. The black vs. white, good vs. evil, us vs.them mentality is terrible basis for running a country in a complex world.

Re: Jack
Amen to that!!

Barry Goldwater please save us.
We need an actual conservative to take high office.

A guy like Goldwater...

Sadly the only party that believes in anything coming remotely close to true conservativism these days are the Libertarians, and our current parties will make darn sure they stay marginalized forever.

The only thing the "holy" Republicans and the "unholy" Democrats agree on 100% is that they can't allow anyone else to horn in on their racket.

"Remember that a government big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."

"You don't have to be straight to be in the military; you just have to be able to shoot straight."

"It's wonderful that we have so many religious people in our party, ... They need to leave their theologies in their churches."

Please help, Barry!

JohnCitizen
I’m not going to try to justify the presidents handling of the Iraq war. I personally support the cause while disagreeing with the management of it. But, it’s easy for me to criticize when I’m not the one taking the heat.

I think you have to understand that Bush’s religion does not influence anything in the management of government. He can select conservative judges, support conservative legislation, but that’s as far as it goes.

Just because he prayers, and is out spoken in his beliefs doesn’t amount to anything when it comes to policy.
When we talk about poverty in this country, we are bending the truth. Even homeless people are homeless because they choose to be homeless. There are homeless shelters nation wide that homeless people refuse help from because they don’t like rules. Most of them are mentally ill, alcoholics, drug addicts, etc.

If you want to see poverty, look at 3rd world countries.

How can we speak of poverty in this country when we spend trillions on entitlements for illegals.

As for Bush’s tax cuts, it’s a proven fact that tax cuts work. The problem is spending. That’s why they are calling him a neo- conservative.
That nonsense about tax cuts for the rich is bogus. What do I care if the rich get the tax cuts, they pay the most taxes. I’d rather see a strong economy that gives everybody a job and pays a livable wage. What’s a meager few hundred a year tax break for me going to do, nothing! If you make less than $40,000 a year you aren’t paying anything in taxes anyway. The cost of living is what kills us. A healthy economy is the best thing that our government can do for us.

Foxfire
Bush's tax cuts went too far and he was warned about it by some of the smartest republican advisors out there, like Paul O'Neill. Here is what Warren Buffett says.

"Warren Buffett, the third-richest man in the world, has criticized the US tax system for allowing him to pay a lower rate than his secretary and his cleaner."

As for poverty, a lot of smoke is out there to cloud the issue but the fact U.S. has second worst newborn death rate in modern world should say something.

We spend trillions on entitlements for illegal aliens? I'd like to see your source on that.

Foxfire is Wrong

You are dead wrong when you suggest that Bush's religious beliefs do not influence his governance. AS I wrote above, Glenn Greenwald's book provides voluminous evidence that Bush's beliefs influences everything he does, often to the detriment of the country.

Here we go again
War, abortion, gays, and taxes....that is Christian politics. Abortion and gay marriage define today's Christians in general, even those not politcal.
Meanwhile we are divorcing faster then non-Christians, sending our Christian kids into the world without a two parent background...so we can find ourselves.
A party of family values that doesn't value families....thats todays GOP

Religion Is Not The Boogy Man
I wish someone would tell me what is wrong with a value system. Do you have to be a Christian or religious to have a value system?

What’s wrong with truth, integrity, chastity, and respect for life?

Is it necessary to show your ignorance by using profanity? I’ve heard educated men insult very effectively with perfect English.

Is it necessary to spread venereal disease by sleeping with everything you can get your hands on?

Don’t you think that if you are responsible for creating life that it has a right to live?

Can’t you see that religion has little to do with it? It’s a matter of being civilized.

Do you want your society to survive? Without self imposed restraints you are going to self destruct. The problem is that no one wants to impose restraint on themselves.

re: foxfire22
foxfire22 wrote:

"Liberty First

...

"Those of you who are supporting your brand of liberty are suggesting that it’s alright to deprive those who hold moral views, whether they are Christian views or not..."

>>

Liar.

I and those others supporting my brand of liberty do ~NOT~ suggest that it is all right "to deprive those who hold moral views" of anything EXCEPT for the ability to use the police power of the state to use force to deprive US of OUR Freedom and Liberty.

-----

"... You are advocating the same thing that you are accusing evangelicals of..."

>>

Liar.

I have never once advocated using the police power of government to compel anyone to do anything nor to prohibit anyone from doing anything EXCEPT commit aggression against the Equal Rights of others.



It's pretty pathetic when you have to resort to lying about ~MY~ positions. But, in so many words, you prove my point. To people like you, the idea that ~OTHER~ people have the Freedom to do things that YOU disapprove of is a scary thing.

Jack
Jack, please tell me what the man has done that Bill Clinton could not have done.

I may have missed something.
Bush has put 2 Supreme Court judges in office who are conservative but not particularly religious.
He started a war that any president could have started. There's a lot of people that agree with the war that are not Christians.

He got a tax cut, he got a perscription drug bill. He got a faith based program which I would not consider anything more than a social program.

He hasn't gotten any legisltion against gay marriage, abortion, unless you consider killing full grown unborn babies as pushing his religious beliefs on the people.

I can't believe anyone can justify killing full term babies humane.

Other than that, what has he accomplished.

Other than a few spending bills, the mans term has been zero accomplishment.

Expounding his beliefs amount to nothing.

He will never be remembered for what he did for the Christian movement, believe me.

Liberty First
How did police power get into this discussion.

Sorry if I caused offense.

I don't recall lying about anything you said.

You appeared to be accusing Christians of depriving you of your liberty.

It seems to me that conservatives are not all religious and you can't have a value system that doesn't restrain someone.
That value system is not determined by Christians only.

Gabby
You "Let's see how the atheists compromised in the greatest slaughter in human history during the last century."

Those were anti-theists who replaced God with Society (or themselves) and Religion with State. That doesn't work.

Atheists who lack faith, like Mises, Hayek, Ayn Rand, Murray Rothbard, George Smith, were individualists who adhered to principles of individual liberty, limited Constitutional government (or less), nonintervention--libertarian, like I suspect you are.

You "I'm sorry, but atheists did not create America."

No, but Jefferson was called one, and so was Paine. But neither did Christians, particularly. America was built by Americans. It's religious strength from religious freedom, it's economic strength from scientific research and free markets--or what there is of those.

You "NO, WE ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN GOVERNMENT, but we are a Christian people, and we were always a Christian people. "

Agreed. Religious people, to one degree or another, with a secular government, to one degree or another.

You "This liberty you now wish to exercise is the product of that Christian heritage and the Western heritage in which it was imbedded."

Agree again. And that Western heritage comes as well from the Romans and Greeks and elsewhere, and so has Christianity been influenced by other cultures, that came before it, and came since.


If I was you, I wouldn't compromise nothin'. That's from me, a skeptic conservative though. Not sure who you're so fired up at.

Hey Gabby....
Though you may subscribe to the myth that the founding fathers were all Christian....many were actually Deists....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism#Deism_in_America

ff22
I really can't understand what you are trying to say. Are you trying to say that what Bush has done doesn't matter because someone else could conceivably have done it too?

Well, they didn't. He did what he did. But I realize I am probably trying to explain something you could not possibly grasp. Bush's entire governing mentality is based on stark black and white differences, most often "evil" vs. "good."

The world is not like that and trying to make it like that leads to disaster.






re: foxfire22
foxfire22 wrote:

"How did police power get into this discussion..."

>>

ANY TIME anyone uses the Force