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Saturday, April 18, 2009
Ken Blackwell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Fighting for Religious Freedom
by Ken Blackwell
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Last week, many Americans celebrated Holy Week and Passover. Both of these traditions remind us that we must continue to stand for religious freedom for all. I agree with Britain’s Anglican Bishop of Rochester, the Rt. Rev. Michael Nazir-Ali. He says that we Christians should treat our Muslim neighbors with love and with respect. We believe, even if they do not, that we are all created in the image and likeness of God. We believe that they share with us the civil rights that are enjoyed by all Americans. But we also believe, with George Washington, that each one here should be able “to sit under his own vine and fig tree and there should be none to make him afraid.”

Threats of violence should be met with the firmest measures of effective control. When Muslims threaten the murder of anyone who offends them — as they did with Christian convert Abdul Rahman in Afghanistan several years ago –we have a right to denounce such barbarism. We should stand up, and never cringe. That is a lesson from Dr. Martin Luther King I hope we all have learned.

But not everyone here agrees with an unapologetic stance for religious freedom. With the authority of one who really knows, Chris Seiple, President of the Institute for Global Engagement, took to the pages of The Christian Science Monitor last month to lecture us on the new “no-nos” of communicating with Muslims.

Speaking as one who has been to the Middle East many times, Seiple gives advice to President Obama on the words he should not use.

Don’t use jihadi, Seiple says, to describe terrorists that we are fighting. This only confirms their status as religious warriors. Seiple says they don’t merit that classification.

Don’t use freedom, either, he says. That’s because what Americans mean by freedom is often confused by Muslims as “an unbound licentiousness.” Watch out for “religious freedom,” too. Seiple thinks this term has been tainted by a too-close association with past U.S. foreign policy and the idea that we were making war to make the world safe for Protestant Evangelicals to “proselytize and convert.”

Even though he concedes that this is not an accurate portrayal of what religious freedom actually means, Seiple thinks it would be better to avoid the term entirely and speak in terms of “peace, justice, honor, mercy, and compassion.” “Tolerance” rounds out Seiple’s long list of unmentionables. Seiple concludes by saying that tolerance is not enough because it fails to build bridges of trust – “according to the inherent dignity we each have as fellow creations of God…”

Note that unusual term “fellow creations of God.” Not fellow human beings created in the image of God. A fellow creation of God could be no closer than the whale and the sea. Don’t slay the one. Don’t pollute the other. They are both fellow creations of God.

What Chris Seiple is advocating, let us be clear, is dhimmitude. He is urging us to self-censor, and self-limit so that we do not offend. In short, he wants us to cringe, the better to gain “respect” in our dealings with Muslims. Dhimmi is the status accorded to non-Muslims in regions dominated by Islam. Often translated as “second-class citizen,” that unappealing phrase is itself a euphemism. We might better think of dhimmis as persons with no rights, no legal standing, no claims of citizenship, those who live shadow lives always subject to heavy taxes for simply being what they are – non-Muslims. Dhimmis may not be slaves, but they are just a notch above. Seiple is what I descriptively term a dhimmicrat. That’s not a term of abuse. It’s a word for one who uses his political or cultural position to lay on the rest of us, especially believing Christians and Jews, a de facto dhimmi status. They want us to surrender — even before the jihadists succeed in creating their umma — their all-Muslim community. Dhimmicrats are forever lecturing us on the need to be more understanding of outrageous conduct.

Newsweek magazine recently published a chilling story about young, bearded Afghan men who hang out in the slums of London. There, these often unschooled and unemployed young Muslims show each other the latest Taliban ambushes of U.S. troops in their home country — and the latest grisly beheadings of Aghans accused of spying for the U.S. and NATO forces. They are not doing this just in Kandahar or Kabul, but in London.

Britain’s Prince of Wales came to the United States recently to try to persuade us to be more understanding of Muslim demands. He does not preach understanding among the young Afghans migrants who live just a few miles from his princely palace in London. That could be dangerous. The prince may be the leading dhimmicrat in the world.

When Anglican Bishop Nazir-Ali came to the U.S. earlier this year, he did not call for persecution of Muslims. Nazir-Ali called upon all Christians to treat Muslims with genuine respect. Asked whether muezzins ought to be allowed to call Muslims to prayer in his home city of Rochester, England, “certainly,” the Bishop replied even-handedly, “as soon as church bells ring out in Mecca.” The Bishop’s point was there should be no knuckling under.

Bishop Nazir-Ali says Britain’s very life as a nation is at stake. English law and the Christian religion are what distinguished England among the nations. Both are daily being bartered away by dhimmicrats in the U.K. who fear that any resistance will bring a violent reaction.

Let’s also remember Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., this week. He gave his life for the ideals expressed in the Declaration of Independence. Without the religious freedom afforded by this country, could his example have inspired believers around the world? He is honored by a statue in Britain’s Westminster Abbey. We should honor his memory in our hearts.

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About The Author
Mr. Blackwell, a contributing editor at Townhall.com, is a senior fellow at the Family Research Council and American Civil Rights Union.
 
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Since I am gay,
I always like to think of Jesus as gay, too.

This is a part of my religious freedom granted me living in these United States.

I figure if mormons and scientologists can have their own particular vision of Jesus that is not, strictly speaking, in alignment with the new testament gospels, then I can have my gay Jesus.

I believe the U.S. Supreme Court would back me up on this.

I wonder
if Mr. Blackwell believes we should also resist attacking predominantly Muslim countries in a region already racked by religious strife? Or is that something different. It is inexplicable how sensitive Americans are to perceived potential assaults at the hands of Muslims, while igniting wars in the Middle East, and supporting unequivocally an aggressive Jewish state. Gee, I wonder why Muslims are angry.

First!
I think Seiple is just trying to help things go smoothly, not that our representatives are making us have a 2nd class ranking.
I think it's great we have a Christain president. I just love it when he references the Bible, like in one of his last speeches talking about building on a strong foundation.
Pres. Obama-
"I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life. But most importantly, I believe in the example that Jesus set by feeding the hungry and healing the sick and always prioritizing the least of these over the powerful. I didn't 'fall out in church' as they say, but there was a very strong awakening in me of the importance of these issues in my life. I didn't want to walk alone on this journey. Accepting Jesus Christ in my life has been a powerful guide for my conduct and my values and my ideals." 1

1
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/januaryweb-only/10 4-32.0.html?start=2

Will
I will probably ask myself later why I bothered but you know when someone sings the same song over and over, it doesn't gather an audience, gathers a crowd of annoyed people especially when it's loud and off key. You are annoying.
We don't CARE what your unnatural proclivities are..so sing another song and STOP Blaspheming My Lord and Savior..He was without Sin..got that. His Book, has a lot to say regarding your
choice of lifestyle so don't go there..you most likely have been turned over to a reprobate mind so you are blind. I happen to be the adoptive mother of a homosexual man (bi racial also) who is struggling against alcoholism (a common affliction among those of your ilk), depression (common also) and suicidal (again,
common) and finally struggling to be free of
his addiction of lusting after other men. And
he doesnt' discuss his past life incessantly, he does call for encouragement as he struggles to become free, and for prayer for strength as he knows his addiction isn't easy to become freed from. You should try asking Jesus for help rather than blaspeming Him.

Ruth
Are you serious? Haven't you ever heard or read the passage that talks about knowing other believers by their fruit? The fruit I see is full of worms..abortion across the board..including the neglect of survivors til they die..now are you telling us that's Christian. You know if you are a Christian and voted for someone with his values regarding the torture and murder of innocents, you share in the crime as far as God is concerned. Read Proverbs 24:11,12.. You cannot stand before a Holy God and tell him you didn't know, you know his postition on Abortion and yet you defend and voted for him.
Just because he says he's a Christian doesn't mean he is, it's just words, I hear the talk but I don't see him walking the walk..remember
he called us bitter clingers, clinging to our Bibles etc. When you post inane comments, you just show your ignorance.

Another thing Ruth
Which Jesus is he talking about, certainly not the King of Kings and Lord of Lords..he spent 20 years in an apostate church learning at the feet of a foul mouthed BIGOT seething with hate for people of my race. A church that teaches Black Liberation Theology in which the Founder James Cone says if God doesn't destroy the white race then they should kill God. That's another Jesus and that's the Jesus he follows..
He's on record in his book as to his true feelings about his mother's race..He Hates me because I am white, I on the other hand don't hate him for his 7% black and 43% arab ancestry.
I hate his politics, his determination to destroy the Country I love, his lies, his abuse of power etc. I pray for him to see the Light,
and I confess it's through gritted teeth but I do it in obedience not on my feelings.

to Tea Party- 1
"Ruth
Are you serious? Haven't you ever heard or read the passage that talks about knowing other believers by their fruit? "

I'm very glad this came up. Yes, I'm serious that he is a Christian. I see many Christian fruits from his life and administration. Ah yes, Galatians 5:22-23, these attributes are ninefold: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance, attributes that CHristians show in there lives. I would say Pres. Obama esp. shows love (compassion), peace (he certainly is trying to promote peaceful relations), longsuffering (of Republicans, couldn't resist), goodness, and temperance (always described as cool-mannered).

"The fruit I see is full of worms..abortion across the board..including the neglect of survivors til they die."

He said he is personally not for abortion and doesn't know anyone who is. He wants to leave the heart-wrenching choice up to the mother. What you, and others, want it seems is someone who is not for abortion and will outlaw it as well. But, like it or not it is legal right now and a Pres. represents all people in a country.
BAIPA wasn't worded right when he was voting on it and there were already Il laws protecting abortion survivors. These issues have been twisted.

"now are you telling us that's Christian."

yup.

to Tea Party- 2
"You know if you are a Christian and voted for someone with his values regarding the torture and murder of innocents, you share in the crime as far as God is concerned. Read Proverbs 24:11,12.. "

His values are just fine. If a mother decides to abort a pregnancy, that's betwewen her and God. Pres. Obama is focusing ALOT on trying to prevent those situations.

"You cannot stand before a Holy God and tell him you didn't know, you know his postition on Abortion and yet you defend and voted for him."

You're coming across as judgemental. Let God be our Judge, OK? Btw, Sen McCain (did you vote for him?) was for abortion in the cases of rape, incest, and for the life of the mother, in 2000.

"Just because he says he's a Christian doesn't mean he is, it's just words, I hear the talk but I don't see him walking the walk..remember
he called us bitter clingers, clinging to our Bibles etc. When you post inane comments, you just show your ignorance"

About the clinging- he was making a point some people don't have much faith in gov. and religion and guns afford them their only security, which is not optimal. People should have a good gov. It wasn't a dig on religion but on bad gov.

to Tea Party
"Another thing Ruth
Which Jesus is he talking about, certainly not the King of Kings and Lord of Lords..he spent 20 years in an apostate church learning at the feet of a foul mouthed BIGOT seething with hate for people of my race."

Rev Wright wasn't always seething. The clips you see are a snippit or two, all they could find in a 36yr career, (believe me, if there was more, we would have seen it). Unfortunate just the same.

"A church that teaches Black Liberation Theology in which the Founder James Cone says if God doesn't destroy the white race then they should kill God."

We don't know how much of the founder's beliefs Pres. Obama agrees with. He's not saying things like that. I wish people would quit making him responsible for things other people say. I've attended church where the pastors have said bizarre things.

"That's another Jesus and that's the Jesus he follows.."
I beg to differ. He says- "I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ." Same Jesus, same salvation.

"He's on record in his book as to his true feelings about his mother's race..He Hates me because I am white, I on the other hand don't hate him for his 7% black and 43% arab ancestry."
He struggled for awhile with identity. It seems like he's over it now.

"I hate his politics, his determination to destroy the Country I love, his lies, his abuse of power etc. I pray for him to see the Light,
and I confess it's through gritted teeth but I do it in obedience not on my feelings."

And the fruit of the Spirit is Love?
Nobody's trying to destroy this country. It will survive just fine.

What???
What a ridiculous article. How would it be if the Muslims stayed away from the Christians and everyone left everyone else alone. The Europeans are now paying for their nearly unrestricted immigration policies by living in an increasingly tyrannical situation. That is probably one reason why different peoples were placed in different parts of the earth and were separated by oceans, mountain ranges, and such. It's best not to fool with Mother Nature!

And Ruth, you do not have a Christian president. TOTUS tells him to recite scripture when it will serve some political need. Left to his own devices, however, he obliterates references to Christ. Can you say Georgetown U?

to Tea Party
"Another thing Ruth
Which Jesus is he talking about, certainly not the King of Kings and Lord of Lords..he spent 20 years in an apostate church learning at the feet of a foul mouthed BIGOT seething with hate for people of my race."

Rev. Wright wasn't always seething. What you saw was one or two snippets of a 36 yr. career, (believe me, if there was more we would have seen it).

"A church that teaches Black Liberation Theology in which the Founder James Cone says if God doesn't destroy the white race then they should kill God."

We don't know how much of the founder's beliefs Pres. Obama agrees with. I wish people would stop making him responsible for things other people say. I've attended churches where pastor have said bizarre things.

"That's another Jesus and that's the Jesus he follows.."

I beg to differ. He said- "I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus." Same Jesus, same salvation.

"He's on record in his book as to his true feelings about his mother's race..He Hates me because I am white, I on the other hand don't hate him for his 7% black and 43% arab ancestry."
He had some struggles with identity. It seems like he's over it now.

"I hate his politics, his determination to destroy the Country I love, his lies, his abuse of power etc. I pray for him to see the Light,
and I confess it's through gritted teeth but I do it in obedience not on my feelings."

And the fuit of the Spirit is Love?
Nobody's trying to destroy this Country. It will survive just fine.

sorry for the double post
***

KATZ
"What a ridiculous article. How would it be if the Muslims stayed away from the Christians and everyone left everyone else alone. The Europeans are now paying for their nearly unrestricted immigration policies by living in an increasingly tyrannical situation."

What the hell are you talking about? Give me one single example of increasing "tyranny" in Europe.

Come to think of it...
There's no way this article is accurate. I heard my former president tell me, time and time again, that they hate us for our freedom.

Which is in no way true, 'cause as David Cross says, if they hated us for our freedom, the Netherlands would be dust.

To Will in CA
You claim freedom of religion because you live in America--and yet you spout doctrine about other religion that you know absolutely NOTHING about.
Until you actually READ the Book of Mormon--and pray about whether or not it is true--as you are asked to do in the front of the book--you have NO right to tell anybody what OTHERS believe! That is NOT doctrine of the Latter Day Saint Church--much as you seem to think you know it is.

Certainty is not proof--Insistance is not fact--Opinion is not evidence.

Until you get this right, don't spout off.

DEMS ARE ANTI-RELIGIOUS FREEDOM
For some reason Democrats like to promote every other religion from around the world except Christaianity. This country was founded on Judeo-Christian values and yet the the freedom in the constitution that Americans have the right to are infringed on everyday by the MSM, the LEFT, and a majority of Democrats. These people would rather us bend over backwards for other religions around the world as they immigrate here but yet they will not respect our freedom of religion alotted for in the constitution. I am not saying do not give the other religions respect and courtesy but just that us Judeo-Christian Americans deserve the same respect as these liberals demand for other religions around the world. FREEDOM OF RELIGION IS A RIGHT THAT IS BEING STRIPPED AWAY AND MUST BE STOPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Leave Will Alone...
in this regard, at least. A (very) conservative, I am also the mother of two gay sons, one of whom is very involved in a well established, Christian church as the man he is. If will is a man of faith, who happens to be gay, more power to him. His love for liberalism, like my sons', is what makes me cringe. His perception that conservatives are homphobic are what "turned him liberal", would be my guess. I love my gay sons. I HATE that they're liberals.

And Ruth, get a grip. Would YOU have stayed in that church after the pastor DAMNED your country. There's an unspoken (usually) in that particular congregation, and it HATES white America. He didn't leave it. That pastor was your president's MENTOR. Really, Ruth. You sound like a kind, loving, and concerned human being. This guy's just another slime ball, risen from the muck of Chicago politics.


Scurvy in VA
In Italy, secret Sharia courts are handing out 'justice' such as chopping off hands. In France 70,000 forced marriages and roughly 35,000 female circumcisions or threats thereof. In England, a radical Muslim on the City Council who needed an interpreter. In many places, these minorities refuse to assimilate and are becoming alienated subcultures. This has resulted in ganglike violence. In others, the majority is constrained from free speech, by the minority. Bombings and other examples of extremism have frightened citizens, especially in France and England. Muslim extremist groups are operating in Switzerland, including Hammas. Holland and Sweden have banned their own flags in schools in order to not 'offend' Muslim students. The Swiss had the 'Black Sheep' campaign to try and halt Muslim immigration. I'm sure that you have heard of European artists being killed by offended Muslims. This sounds to me like an extremely tyrannical minority. Again, everyone needs to leave everyone else alone!

Scurvy in VA
Your quote: "Which is in no way true, 'cause as David Cross says, if they hated us for our freedom, the Netherlands would be dust."

Paris burned for several weeks. Rioting in the streets was carefully blamed on "restless youths" at worst, not disenfranchised Muslim youths.

Why burn it when by sheer numbers and claims of "rights" your religion of peace will intimidate and subject your host country?

PLEASE read Mark Steyn's "America Alone". Very funny and well researched.


Religious Freedoms or Individual Freedom
There is a vast difference between the two.

When one wants to claim religious freedom. They pass laws to protect themselves. Often infringing on another freedom to commit immoral acts that no not infringe on another rights.

When we look at individual freedom. We deny Muslin's or any religions act on another's right. It is not about this religion versus that religion. Or religion at all. It is about me to do what I want and being held accountable to God for it. By God, not you.

God told us to preach. Preach Brother. If we failed we lose morality, maybe our individual freedom as well. God never told us to dictate and act like them by doing so.

WHAT IS THE MEANING OF OBAMA'S BLUNDER
at Strasbourg? Click my name for the answer.

Mr. Blackwell
Good column. I would add that Islam needs to be treated like a political idea. They use it that way, and we should treat it that way. Then we would be able to say who we are at war with.
Kirk

Scurvy
Excellent choice of names. It describes you to a 'T'

Thank you
Mr. Blackwell for an excellent column. I really appreciate Townhall for bringing these insightful articles to us daily otherwise I think we would be very ill informed. I base this on the number of liberals who come here on a regular basis and although they enjoy belittling the postings they read here they must have nowhere else to get factual information about the world around them. Otherwise they would be too busy watching CNN and MSNBC and reading TIME and Newsweek to come here every single day and post comment after comment ridiculing conservatives.

RUTH, RUTH, RUTH
Ruth,do you really think the devil would admit he is evil...It doesn't work that way...The devil comes claiming he is good and deceives people like you..Obama is a flat out liar, every word he says mostly, and he is a killer of innocent babies.. He lies about the bible and Jesus words from hell to breakfast...He is not a Christian.. Christian know Jesus is the only way back to God..Obama believes all relgions lead to God..This is the antithesis of Christianity.. Obama is a wolf in Sheep's clothing..He is like the beast of Rev 13 that has two horns like a lamb but is dragon within...

How to treat islam
How very wrong to say all men are in the image of God..This is just not true...The men in God's image are indwelled by Jesus..It is called born again...
Jesus spoke several times of satan's children..Matt 13-35-38, John 8,,
Muslims are not in God's image.
As for how to treat Muslims refer to Jesus actions in John 8.He was speaking to the men who claimed to be Abraham's children...To which Jesus replied "not children of Abraham but SEED OF ABRAHAM.." The are the men who had Jesus killed for blasphemy for saying HE IS SON OF GOD..Wow must have been Muslims forefathers with that doctrine. Jesus flat out told them they were children of satan... He was not (delusional) politically correct and thank God for it

Stroke, Stroke, Stroke
Al Gore a pagan high priest of the Roman temple system comes up with his cap and spends
Tax and regulate scam.

The people reject his false religion and wonder why the government doesn’t just tax energy why is it so important to worship Al Gores religious beliefs?

The real problem with oil is sending our money to the Arab world and then having to sell the Arabs weapons to offset the trade imbalance this destabilizes the Middle East and costs us more money to send troops to protect our oil interest.

Why use the pagan religious B.S. to promote a legitimate energy concern?

The Sun and the moon and the stars will do what they do for complex reason not yet fully understood.

Alchemist, wizards, witches and wise men have long been known to be full of sht and so is Al Gore.

Why do we have to worship Al Gore and stroke his Boner?

Some day in the future our children will tear down the libraries built to the politicians that enslaved them.

Just like the people tore down the statues of Stalin.

Senator Byrd you should think about that you have the most to tear down and the least time to change things.

Ruth in PA
I take it that you are a Christian.

I also understand your post to mean that an abortion is between the woman and God.

Do you, as a Christian, accept the Bible as the Word of God?

Do you, as a Christian, accept the many passages in the Bible that talk about unborn children as human beings?

Do you, as a Christian, believe that murder is only between a murderer and God?

Do you, as a Christian, believe that society can make laws against such things?

Terrorists are among us
That is the problem. We must first acknowledge that there is a problem. When someone threatens to kill another that person should have to answer for such a threat in criminal court. The terrorists in this country I believe will strike from within and strike hard. A massive coordinated conventional attacks would rattle this country good.

Religous Freedom is Freedom
Religous FReedom is freedom. The Freedom to worship or choose not to worship. Baptists with the first advocates of the Seperation of chruch and state because they feared domination by mainstream religions of the time. Many on the christian right have more in common with the jihaidsts than they like to admit. They both want to impose their brand of god worship on the society as a whole by the force of civil law.


Stand Up
Unless we stand up we will be overwhelmed from the inside and outside. Islam makes it clear that they are going to rule over us. They are not in a hurry. A little at a time will do.

Dhimmicratic Approach Comes to America
Here is a perfect example of our first steps to Dhimmi policies here in our America via the “Stimulus Bill”. I believe the concerns voiced by many regarding religious freedoms is well founded.

Notice the specific language in the proposed bill. It is just too eerily similar to an attitude of Dhimmitude to be a chance of wording. Who wrote it so specifically and why? Read the specific provision for yourself...The ban on religious organizations is linked to the $3.5 billion intended for "renovation of public or private college and university facilities."

"PROHIBITED USES OF FUNDS. - No funds awarded under this section may be used for - (C) modernization, renovation, or repair of facilities - (i) used for sectarian instruction, religious worship, or a school or department of divinity; or (ii) in which a substantial portion of the functions of the facilities are subsumed in a religious mission."

More here:
http://tinyurl.com/c5oaus

The majority of the House demo(dhimmi)crats support this bigotry. There is a link to a short speech by Jim DeMint, R-S.C voicing his concerns regarding the dangers of such restrictions.

Such a slippery slope we are on.

Any good practitioner of the Religion of Peace would be proud of what we are doing to ourselves that no amount of bombs or any number of historic terrorist activities might accomplish to further the political, social onslaught by force or fear. Conversions, intimidations, and sheer numbers not withstanding.

See Mark Steyn's excellent expose in "America Alone". Well researched and terribly funny as well.
http://www.marksteyn.com/

Is this a trick?
Did Blackwell make the stupidest argument he could manage to see how many conservatives actually pay attention to the argument?

Did he just pretend to favor religious freedom and then suggest we should model the religious freedom we give to other on Saudi Arabia?

Did he really suggest that choosing to avoid offending other groups of people constitutes cringing? Does he have any conception of what the word freedom means?

I know conservatives often make bad arguments. But every once in a while one gets an argument here that is so bad one is left scratching ones head and wondering if it was offered with any seriousness.

To deal with the muslim world in ways that do not work to the advantage of al qaeda consitutes cringing? Why aren't conservatives offended to be associated with such idiocy?

JM05
You are absolutely right. A Christian fundamentalist, such as the people on this thread, have more in common with fundamentalists of all other religions than the mainstream, moderate members of those same religrions have with each other. this is true for Christian, Hindus, Muslims, and Christian Sects.

Any scholar of comparitive religions will say the same thing.

JM05
"They both want to impose their brand of god worship on the society as a whole by the force of civil law.

They also insist on a rigid, inflexible interpretation of their texts, most of which do hot hold up under inflexible interpretation and are subject to varying interpretations. So, Bishops, Popes, Big Theater Prophets, conservative columnists, and village preachers decide the "one and Only" interpretation.

Anyone not accepting that interpretatin was usually called a heretic, expecially in Christianity and Islam. They were generally flayed, eviscerated, buried alive, or burned after nails haid been pounded in their tongues. History also shows us that scientists were a popular victim of this form of religious entertainment.


Lon
I'm not sure why you would come to TH looking for cogent, thought-provoking columns or comments. I didn't know anybody did.

I think this is regarded more as a kind of water-balloon sport. Don't take it so seriously.

God
Good article...you are right! Since we believe in God and pray to God, then every other person deserves the same as we. Even when they bombed M. L. King's house, he would not let them retaliate, even in his name...and how many times did he goe to jail, peacefully? If we expect and believe God loves us, then doesn't he love every other person too? Thanks for the article!

FRED
WHY ARE YOU ON HERE?

Fred
You are a very blissful person

Sumpter Sam
What does God teach us about torture?

WILL CA
The trouble is that you don't know him as savior and Lord.Quit reading those ferry tale books and get you a good KJV bible,then you may come to know him!

will
There's a lesbian at work who prefers to think of me as gay despite my 20-odd years of marriage to a man and my clearly worded insistence that I don't find other women sexually attractive. Just because she prefers to think I'm gay, doesn't mean that I am.

Will, before you make these comments, you might want to actually read the New Testament. We can find out a lot about Jesus by reading the Book of John. Anything else is pure speculation.

Also, most Bible-believing Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christians by Biblical definition. The Bible says Jesus is God come in the flesh. The writings of the apostle John make it clear that if you don't believe that, you aren't a true Christian. Most Mormons believe that Jesus is a lesser deity who sprang from God the Father (that's a loose description of a complicated doctrine). So Biblically, since they don't believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh, they aren't Biblical Christians. The Bible is what defines Christianity.

AuroraWatcher
I think Christianity has a great deal of flexibility, at least the American version of Christianity does. For instance, 65% of American Christians believe that it is possible to achieve eternal salvation without the help of Jesus Christ, even though passages in the Bible suggest that Christ himself proclaims that the only way to the father is through him. And even though Christ clearly prohibits divorce in all but the most specific of circumstances, many American Christians have divorced, some more than once. I’m not sure if Rush Limbaugh is a Christian or not but he’s been divorced three times!

It’s funny how many American-style Christians are up in arms about Barack Obama speaking at Notre Dame’s commencement, yet are quite happy to glorify Rush Limbaugh’s thumbing his nose at the New Testament by their devoted support of him and his radio program.

So I’d be real careful about interpreting your own version of Christianity as correct. One is best advised to begin such pronouncements with a qualifying introduction such as, “the way I see Christianity, is….” or, “some of us believe the Bible says to…..”

Lon
Why do you assume that conservatives NEVER know what they're talking about or even thinking?

For example, Islam -- I've read the Koran twice (in an English translation, because Arabic will not be my 4th language), I know several former Muslims and a couple of current ones, my pastor spent three years in Turkey as an US Army counter-intelligence officer, and I've read several books from different political and cultural perspectives on the subject. So, when Mr. Blackwell talks about this subject, I recognize things that I have known about Islam for 20 years. One of my poli sci professors in college had been an embassador to Egypt and, as the Iranians were holding hostages when I had his class, we discussed the ideology behind the violence.

None of this is new. Islam has contended (since Mohammed no longer needed the support of the Jews in Medina) that anyone who is a non-Muslim must either convert, be killed or accept virtual serfdom. The Muslims I know are very moderate and not very observant and even they admit that the Koran (and more importantly the writings that followed) are very express that non-Muslims are subhumans good only for their taxes. My pastor has some really great stories to tell about dhimmitude while at the same time he has stories about the many great Turkish people, both Christians and Muslims, that he forged life-long friendships with.

So, why is it that you think you can come on TH and insist we're all ignorant, when it is you yourself who is ignorant. Go study what you're scoffing at and then come back and apologize.

Ivan
I’m still trying to figure out why Jews want to cut off foreskins on this marvelous multi-purpose instrument, designed by God. I mean, if God put it there, who are we to remove it? Oh, and if God gave you crooked teeth, who are you to second-guess His design?

TeaParty & Ruth
1John has a great deal to say about the fruit of true Christianity. John told his readers that they could recognize Christ in their fellow Christians and be assured of their own salvation by finding the evidence of love for God, willingness to shine forth the light of Christ in the hostile world, and love for your fellow Christians.

Mr. Obama did his little spiel for Rich Warren at the forum and has since been awfully reticent to talk about his "faith". One of his first executive orders authorized US funds to fund abortions oversees. His advisers are talking about stripping funding from Christian churches by manipulation of the tax code.

I don't see a lot of John's marks of a Christian in Mr. Obama's recent behavior, so I'm leaning toward he's a Christian in name only and thinks Jesus came to feed the poor.

I guess we are supposed to just ignore that whole cross thing. Jesus really just came to turn a child's lunch into a meal for a crowd and to remind us to pay our taxes.

Jeffrey
Christianity is defined by the Bible. If you don't read it, you won't know that. Don't try to tell those of us who do read it what you believe is in there when you haven't done your homework.

As for how Americans define Christianity -- Americans don't have the right to define Christianity. Christianity is not an American institution. It comes from God who gave us the Bible, wherein He defined Christianity through the example of the New Testament churches and what they believed, which was recorded in the New Testament.

You're welcome to have a false opinion, but the Bible also says that there are consequences to that opinion. I prefer to adopt God's opinion, because I think He might know more than me and especially more than you.

Ivan
Mankind was made in the SPIRITUAL image of God. There's a lot we miss by a King James reading of Genesis that the Hebrew scholars can read in the original language. God doesn't have a body, so He doesn't have, uh, parts.

Ivan
Inquire all you want,even without a mind

The Actual Subject
There are a lot of trolls here lately trying to distract from the actual subjects.

The fact is that if you read the Koran you will find dhimmitude in there. If you read the later writings of the Caliphs (I am blank on the name right now), you will find it even more strongly worded. Non-Muslims are considered subhumans fit only for slavery by the teachings of Islam. Not all Muslims believe that. I've met a few in the US who don't. However, even they admit that the attitude underlies any dealings with the countries they are from.

I started asking American Muslims a couple of years ago if accepting de facto dhimmitude was a better way to deal with Muslim countries than fighting wars. They all said "No!!!" If you accept dhimmitude, you lose power and Muslims relish that. The more subservient you are, the more they feel you deserve dhimmitude and the more you feel you deserve it too. The weaker you become, the stronger they become.

We should be polite and friendly to those Muslims who treat us in polite and friendly ways. I've met some lovely people that way, broke down some difficult barriers that way. We should realize, however, that there are a significant minority of Muslims who are, unfortunately, in charge of some countries, who view us as subhumans. Polite and friendly therefore cannot be deferential and fawning. Our president should not have bowed to a Saudi prince. That sends the message that we are willing to come under their de facto rule. He may not have meant to send that message, but that is the message that was received. Now, the Saudi prince is probably not going to come knocking on our door tomorrow demanding the keys to the White House, but Muslims across the globe saw that gesture as an acknowledgment by the US of the prince's superiority over our nation.

And, that observation comes from Muslims and former Muslims. I'm just repeating what they've told me.

AuroraWatcher
I think you misunderstood my post. I don't have an opinion of what Christianity is, I'm not a Christian. I'm just pointing out the many interpretations of Christianity that exist in America. There's various denominations, there's a huge variation in the practice of Christianity. The divorce thing is huge, in my opinion. Clearly, the practice of Christianity is very much open to personal interpretation. I'm not saying it's a bad thing I'm just pointing out that when someone say one must do this, or mustn't do that, there's probably some Christian doing this or that and thinking it's perfectly ok.

Abortion - Between a Mother and God
Ruth at 4:23 AM...

Please think about what you said. "His values are just fine. If a mother decides to abort a pregnancy, that's betwewen her and God."

What if the baby is three minutes old (from birth), and she decides to strangle it. Is that between her and God?

Dear God, please save us from this abortion holocaust.

ps. Please also ponder on the use of the term, "to abort a pregnancy." Why is that term used instead of, "to kill a baby"?

aurorawatcher
I don't always assume that conservatives don't know what they are talking about. If so I would not have said this column was particluarly egrigious, I would have said it was just another example of conservatives not knowing what they are talking about.

And in fact my criticism of this article is not really in the category of not knowing what it is talking about, it is in the category of being internally incoherent. I did note that the article suggests a lack of understanding of what freedom means, but I assume that you do not believe freedom to be a particularly Islamic concept any more than I do.

At the heart of Jesus' message is the Golden Rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. At the heart of Blackwell's column is the principle that one should do unto others as they do unto you. The questions you raise all concern whether Blackwell's application of this parody of Christianity is a good one. But you do not answer my point which is that anyone who actually supports religious freedom would not advocate our basing our notion of religious freedom on imitating the views of the Saudis.

There is no religious freedom in Saudis Arabia. Someone who bases western view of religious freedom on that of the Saudis does not support religious freedom. Do you really disagree with these claims? Do you think that someone supporting basing our policy with regard to muslims on the Saudi's position with regard to non-muslims can be said to support religious freedom?

aurora watcher

By contrast, the supposed opponent of religious freedom in the article, Seiple is not suggesting banning any behaviors. He is making suggestions as to how our diplomats behave if they want to have success. Do you really not see why offering advice as to the effective way to get the bulk of the non-terrorist muslim world supporting us rather than the terroists is not really opposing religious freedom?

It is hard to spell out the problems with this article without sounding like one is lecturing a 5 year old because the argument here is really that stupid. That was my point.

Blackwell and the Anglican Minister do not need to honor the Golden Rule. They are free to push that parody of the Golden Rule instead. But they deserve to be laughed at if they pretend that in doing so they are defending religious freedom.


Tea Party's adoptive son
I know this is far off the subject of religious freedom, but Tea Party's comments about her adoptive son who is gay broke my heart:

“I happen to be the adoptive mother of a homosexual man (biracial also) who is struggling against alcoholism (a common affliction among those of your ilk), depression (common also) and suicidal thoughts (again, common) and finally struggling to be free of his addiction of lusting after other men."

I feel so sorry for that young biracial man. To have been adopted by that particular mother has to be the cruelest twist of fate. I'm sure she means well but does not realize he is depressed and alcoholic because she has RAISED him to be.

The state of his mental health has nothing to do with his being gay, but has everything to do with being raised by a mother who thinks his homosexuality is the work of the Devil. She has convinced him that this “lust” can be prayed away. I promise you it cannot.

Gay children who have been raised in loving households where they are accepted just as they are do NOT grow up to be depressed and alcoholic. They become happy and healthy adults who find love and companionship with someone of the same sex. Unfortunately, far too many gays never get there. They exit this world by their own hand because they are taught that they're worthless.

Will
If you read your history them homo’s were the ones beating and hanging the Jews on the crosses.

It was a gay pride day and then a gay pride march that ended in the destruction of that temple in Jerusalem.

There was another gay pride movement in Germany years later that lead to the Jews being stuffed in ovens.

So I know your trying to be funny Ha Ha not

David
I have known numerous homosexual men and they all suffered from alcoholism, drug addiction, and/or depression. Even the ones that had understanding and accepting parents.

As Tea Party stated, these are common afflictions among homosexuals.

It’s just possible that the addiction tendencies and depression of homosexuals has to do with the fact that their conscience is at odds with their lifestyle.








to bigfootbob
"Abortion - Between a Mother and God
Ruth at 4:23 AM...

Please think about what you said. "His values are just fine. If a mother decides to abort a pregnancy, that's betwewen her and God."

What if the baby is three minutes old (from birth), and she decides to strangle it. Is that between her and God?"

Good grief, such an example.
No, if a baby was strangled at three minutes old, that would be between her, God and law enforcement.
If a woman gets a legal abortion (there are guidelines as to the timeframe), THAT is between her and God, and I should have said the father, and possibly other family, too.

"Dear God, please save us from this abortion holocaust."

I don't like it any more than you.

"ps. Please also ponder on the use of the term, "to abort a pregnancy." Why is that term used instead of, "to kill a baby"?"

It has to do with when a baby is viable, in other words, can live on it's on. This is always changing and premies at younger and younger weeks of development are surviving. You probably know this, but in early stages of pregnancy, the baby is termed a fetus. It would be correct to also say, "kill a developing fetus", or "baby-to-be", and probably should be termed that way to give respect to that life. Before the age of viability, (20 wks gestation?), the developing fetus is not seen to some as a baby, hence they focus on aborting or stopping the pregnancy.

Personally, I believe life begins at conception and am not for abortion or embryonic stem cell research. The former, also, Sen McCain was "for" in 2000, for rape, incest, and the life of the mother. The latter, both candidates support.

Bible
The fact is that the Bible is riddled with so many inconsistencies and absurdities, only morons and brainwashed fools can take it seriously.-- Ivan

Says the damned...

The Bible isn't meant to be an easy read. One has to take it in it's entire context to understand - what you consider - inconsistencies.

There lies the problem with the non-religious they take one line that fits their argument/ideology as the entire gospel.

They do this with politics as well.




to Huskers2- reply
Sorry, off topic, but-

"Do you, as a Christian, believe that murder is only between a murderer and God?

Do you, as a Christian, believe that society can make laws against such things."

No, murder is illegal, but there is such a thing as a legal abortion, (sad to say and many would argue it is immoral). Legal abortions are in a time-frame before the developing fetus can live on its own. Lots of people think it is OK to stop them from developing, and do not share the belief that it is immoral.
Sure, I think we can make laws against such things, but how effective would it be? Rather than our society making laws about what people should believe, why not help women to not get in the situation of an unwanted pregnancy and those who are in it. That is the focus of Pres. Obama.

JEFFERY
A FOOLS MOUTH IS HIS DESTRUCTION,AND HIS LIPS ARE THR SNARE OF HIS SOUL.
PROVERBS 18:7 KJV
JUDGEMENTS ARE PREPARED FOR SCORNERS,AND STRIPES FOR THE BACK OF FOOLS. PROVERB 19:29 KJV
THE FOOL HATH SAID IN HIS HEART,THERE IS NO GOD.THEY ARE CORRUPT,THEY HAVE DONE ABOMINABLE WORKS,THERE IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD.

Absolutely
"That is a lesson from Dr. Martin Luther King I hope we all have learned. "

The lesson we should learn from Dr. King is the power of nonviolent resistance.

If we swarmed our enemies with nonviolence, and taught them to do the same, the resolution of conflicts could occur in a more productive and less bloody fashion.

We should send wisdom, not force, to bear on the knot. Otherwise it just binds tighter and tighter.

Ivan
aurorawatcher is not spinning anything.

Scripture says that “God is spirit” (John 4:24); He doesn't have a body. Adam's body did reflect God in that he was perfectly healthy and wasn't subject to death before the fall.

Here's a good explanation of what it means to be made in God's image:

"The image of God refers to the immaterial part of man. It sets man apart from the animal world, fits him for the dominion God intended him to have over the earth (Genesis 1:28), and enables him to commune with his Maker. It is a likeness mentally, morally, and socially."

http://www.gotquestions.org/image-of-God.html



Freedom of religion
I know there is a God, and I watch you receive his wrath if you are defiant to his word. God does not care about your political party but the fruit of your labor, starvation, slavery, abortion, genocide, infantcide and other terroristic acts in the name of peace and unity are all pavements on the road to hell. Remember do the will of God. It is not a christian job or responsibility to do nothing but introduce the lost to Jesus Christ. What you do in your daily walk especially during tribulations, trials, and test is when your heart is being checked. In the United States one have a right to any religion or the freedom from religion also. That is great because I believe in heaven and hell, and those dening Jesus Christ in their thoughts, words and deeds will be going to hell for a temperary vacation until their date with the lake of fire. Brother Ken I consider you a man of God. It was Republicans that freed the slaves.

to ruth in OH- reply(btw- nice name!)-1
"Ruth,do you really think the devil would admit he is evil..."

I doubt if the devil would say this- "I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life", (what Pres. Obama said).

"It doesn't work that way...The devil comes claiming he is good and deceives people like you..Obama is a flat out liar, every word he says mostly, and he is a killer of innocent babies.."

Abortion is sadly legal. BAIPA was seen as uneccessary, (there were already IL laws protecting babies surviving an abortion).

"He lies about the bible and Jesus words from hell to breakfast...He is not a Christian.. "

God is our Judge.

to ruth in OH- 2
"Christian know Jesus is the only way back to God..Obama believes all relgions lead to God..This is the antithesis of Christianity.."

Of course C. S. Lewis was a Christian, here's something he said-
"C.S. Lewis — author of the vastly popular book Mere Christianity, among many others — said there are people who call themselves Christians who are not Christian at all; there are other "Christians" who are moving further away from Christ all the time. On the other hand, there might be Buddhists or Hindus or Jews that are sincerely seeking God through their religions. Christ said, "ANYONE who seeks, finds." I believe that all who sincerely seek God will find Him — through Christ — even if they are not aware it is happening."
And what about-
In a Roman Centurion, Jesus discovered a faith greater than any among his own people (Luke 7:1-10). The Romans worshiped many gods.
In John's Gospel Jesus said, "I have other sheep which are not of this fold…" (John 10:16). 1

"Obama is a wolf in Sheep's clothing..He is like the beast of Rev 13 that has two horns like a lamb but is dragon within."

I don't think so. He is often quoting the Bible or professing his faith, like-
"We do what we do because God is with us."

1 http://www.explorefaith.org/religions.html

lead by example
From the article-
"What Chris Seiple is advocating, let us be clear, is dhimmitude. He is urging us to self-censor, and self-limit so that we do not offend."

I don't think he's advocating dhimmitude. I think he's advocating the best way to get along.

The best way to fight tyranny is by example.
I think it's wise to show respect to Muslims and doesn't degrade us to 2nd class at all.
If we tick them off and insult them, it only hurts our cause to show them better ways to live.

In the Bible, Paul said, "When in Rome do as the Romans."
I think that includes avoiding terms that might offend.

Ruth in PA
You are mistaken.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

to Grateful
"PROHIBITED USES OF FUNDS. - No funds awarded under this section may be used for - (C) modernization, renovation, or repair of facilities - (i) used for sectarian instruction, religious worship, or a school or department of divinity; or (ii) in which a substantial portion of the functions of the facilities are subsumed in a religious mission."

That's nothing new, it's standard when gov. monies are being allocated. It's been in other legislature and is due to the seperation of Church and State. Nothing to get ruffled about.

to Andrea
"Ruth in PA
You are mistaken.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. "

My point is C.S. Lewis has said the same thing as Pres. Obama.
If Pres. Obama is going to be said to not be a Christain based on that, then you're saying neither is C.S. Lewis.
And anyway isn't God the Judge of that?
This is one of those hard to answer questions. I'm content that Pres. Obama is claiming Jesus as Savior. If he's wrong about thinking other religions can lead people to God, I'm sure God will reveal it to him.

Ruth
What do you mean that C.S. Lewis said that? Just curious. If you are talking about Narnia -- then that was a work of fiction, his imagination...how he wished that it would work not necissarily how it worked. Point blank if you are going to quote C.S. Lewis, please look at his Mere Christianity book...it states that there are several religions and some are more right than others but like math there is only one right answer. 2+2=4, now if a child answers 5 and another child answers 105 then the child that answers 5 is closer to the right answer than the child that answers 105. But they are both still equally wrong...just one is closer to the right answer than the other.

When did religious freedom become
tainted as as a no-no because it somehow drives foreign policy?

Wasn;t that in previous centuries?

We mean by religious freedom today is the ability to practice one's religious faith without oppression and interference.

Religious freedom is under attack today against Christians who are being killed and driven into exile from Muslim countries where sometimes they have been residents before Islam even existed, as the Copts in Egypt and Marionite Christians in Lebanon.

The Darfur genocide is against black Christians by black Muslims.

Persian Zoroastrians, a religion older than Judaism, is under threat of extinction in Iran.

In the US, the courts starting in 1963 have been removing religious expression from 200 years of American life basing their twisted decisions on the First Amendment that says there will be no abridgement of the practice of religion.

We should call the terrorists what they are--weak and cowardly monsters who hide behind women and children and civilians in order to maim and murder in the name of a religion that is about anything except peace.

Lois Va
You might have two sons that are gay
(homosexuals),but pray tell me,how they are christian?That is completely against scripture! Being a christian means that you are Christ like. Read
Romans 1:18-32.KJV What new perversion of bible are you reading?

to Tish- C.S Lewis
He wrote:
“[H]ere are people who do not accept the full Christian doctrine about Christ but who are so strongly attracted by Him that they are His in a much deeper sense than they themselves understand. There are people in other religions who are being led by God’s secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. For example, a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain other points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ’s birth may have been in this position."
(Source- Mere Christianity, pgs 176-177)

He believed you could be saved by the redemptive power of Christ, even though in another religion.

OK, though, maybe I stand corrected.
Pres. Obama seems to believe that other religions can lead to God, though I'm not sure if he attributes the saving grace to Christ, "belonging to Christ", as C.S. Lewis did.

But it is very clear he considers himself a Christian.

When asked what Christianity means at Saddleback Church, Obama said, “At a starting point, it means that Jesus Christ died for my sins and that I am redeemed through Him. I know I don’t walk alone. I know if I can get myself out of the way, I can carry out in some small way what He intends.

Maybe he's just wrong about the "all roads lead to God" idea.

Read it again, Stan...
and it's FAIRY tales, but who am I to judge?

renny
Just in the name of accuracy it should be noted that the Darfur genocide is against one group of black muslims by a different group of black muslims (which would lead one to believe that it is more about ethnicity than religion).

There is also a civil war that has been less hot of late in which largely arab muslims are fighting black christians and animists. That might be the source of the confusion. But both sides in the Darfur conflict are muslim.

Christians are Christ-like?
Stan, are you saying that only people who are like Christ can be Christians? I expect the churches to be empty tomorrow!

Even if being gay were a sin (which it isn't, any more than being born left-handed is a sin), it wasn't included in the top ten, was it? So, according to you, coveting your neighbor's ox (which IS in the top ten), would preclude you from being a Christian.

And when will otherwise intelligent people stop believing what they read in Leviticus? If lying with a man is truly an abomination, so is cursing your parents, and that could get you the death penalty as surely as touching a menstruating woman. Why does anyone take that stuff seriously?

The average eight-grader of today knows more about the world than the "wise" men who wrote the scriptures. That might give me hope for the future of mankind except that those eighth-graders are being taught a pack of lies by parents and pastors.

ivan...yes and no...smile
Yes, God has a body! What he does w/it is none of your business! You know that 'ol line.......
privacy! Are you a homosexual? If not,don't worry about parts of his body! Just take care of your body...nosey! smile.Even if you are a homosexual...it is still none of your body...
ooops,excuse me I meant to say business!smile.
Yes, the Bible has contradictions but that doesn't eliminate the non-contradictions, silly guy! And you were not there at the time..so your broad statements about everything being false IS opinion..but you have the GOD given right to have an opinion..see how nice HE is to you !
.Bible: has about 27 books of scriptures mentioned in the Bible...but they are lost or
some idiot/devious person left them out!
Hmmmmm?And the Italics mean that the people
doing the interpreting were not sure of the exact meaning or the word it self!And I don't want to hear this balogna..God made sure that
they made no mistakes..men have their freedom
and there are mistakes in the bible ... but I still believe in general, that there is mostly truth in there and use it!AND REALLY ENJOY!
And guess what Ivan-- there is more than one
God! This drives most christians up a wall!
But it is so basic how do they miss it?
Genesis: Let US(at least two people)create man in our own image!I guess some folks think that
God is some silly BEING who was looking in the mirror when HE said US!
GOD the father directed Christ on the Creation.
And we were there....I can back this up w/scripture! Now that I have created millions of enemies..time to leave the building!SMILE!
ELVIS

What does God look like?
If man was ceated in God's image, do you think he looks like Brad Pitt or more like Lyle Lovett? Does he resemble a blond Norwegian or an Australian Aborigine?

Oh, he's just a spirit, you say? Then why is there also a Holy Spirit? Is he one being or three? And if it's three, why is Christianity considered a monotheistic religion?

GOD..IS SPIRIT?
Of course, inside of his body! He WALKED in the garden of eden, he SEES what we are doing,HE has a BRAIN that is why he is all intelligent!
A BIG IT....doesn't get it,folks!
He LOVES he has a heart!Read all the scriptures
not just one here and let it go at that!No wonder people like Ivan feels the way he does.
Of course his body is immortal,perfect but a body it is!
I know a person who saw a spirit leave a body that just died..and he is not religious.
Elvis


Books of the Bible
Elvis, I believe you know exactly why not all of the ancient "scriptures" are included in your Bible. It's because the Emperor Constantine became a Christian and assembled 300 Christian leaders at the Counicl of Nicea in 325 AD to decide what Christians should believe. Sixy years later another bunch of men gathered in Carthage for the same purpose.

Can you imagine how outraged we would be if a group of learned men got together today and decided what writings were true and what ones were not? But back then, most people couldn't read and were quite willing to accept what they were told by these "wise" men. It boggles my mind that people still accept their judgments today.

The only reason you believe what you do, or even consider yourself a Christian, is that those men at Nicea were instructed to reach a concensus. Constantine didn't care what they believed as long as they reached agreement. They literally invented all the foundations of Christianity -- the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, the virgin birth -- and spread them throughout the Roman Empire. That's why Christianity took hold, not because it has a lock on the truth.

Ivan/Will
Andrea said: “The image of God refers to the immaterial part of man. It sets man apart from the animal world, fits him for the dominion God intended him to have over the earth (Genesis 1:28), and enables him to commune with his Maker. It is a likeness mentally, morally, and socially."

I’m not an expert on the bible but I’ve read that the image of god also refers to the ability to create life

Through the coupling of the man and the women.

Man has all the responsibilities and freedoms that goes with having babies including having the rights given to us by god but we are
not gods.

Being made in the image and likeness of God has lots of responsibilities and freedoms to perform those tasks.

We are not farm animals to herded or hunted for food.

And there’s more but I’ll just leave it at that.

You know them Homo's always have genitals on the brain.

My kids will tie a sting to a ball and the kittens will play with it for about 10 min.
then they get bored and move on.

But not them Homo's they can play with balls for ever. (T-Bag)

Poor Potty Training
You can’t talk to them Homo’s with out them bringing up their god.

They are fixated on one thing and their gods is between men’s legs.

It’s a curse to be sure an addiction to be sure.

You could be talking about light bulbs and them homo’s Will be thinking about putting the light bulb in their butt or mouth.

Homos?
I just read the last two comments on this article and I see homosexuality being dicussed relating to religious freedom???!!! What does one have to do with the other? Religion, all religions I know of, don't allow for homosexual behavior.

The limited mind of man...
I read some people claiming that since we, humans were created in the image of God, God has a "body" with legs that walk, brains with chemical and electricl discharges to form thoughts, eyes and so on.. I had to laugh at the reponse what He looked like: Brad Pitt or or an Australian aborigine. Yeah, or like a painting of Michelangelo.
The image, since we are speaking of the spirit world, means spiritual image. It has absolutely nothing to do with arms, legs or color of eyes. The Holy Spirit is the energy through which God guides men's lives and destiny. While the Trinity is just a made-up word (not Biblica), my comprehension of it is that it is merely a description of God's manifestations in man's life. I don't consider myself a Biblical scholar, but becasue so many Christians misunderstand the teachings they receive from their preachers, respond ignorantly to literal provocations of Christians tenets.

aniko......"spiritual image"!!
I have to laugh at that...give us detailed
info on "spiritual Image"...boy....this is getting good!
You love that abstract stuff..huh!? But I do like some of your comments. Especially the one where you said..uhhh, let's see,well, there was this other comment about uhhh let's see....
well, anyway have a good day basking in your
spiritual "IMAGES" SMILE.Iam going to take my
Image back to GRACELAND!
ELVIS

DAVID...WA.-- durn it! You caught me!
I have to applaud your homework. But my take is a little different than yours on Constatine(sp)
he saw believers multiplying and saw a great political opportunity..and went and did what you talked about!
Yes, I do know exactly why the missing scriptures are missing they made the so called scholars uncomfortable!Plus, other things.I was trying to play coy..you caught me.Ha Ha Ha.
But the one point where you are wrong----
I don't believe what I believe because of the
FOOLISH nicene creed! And ministers do not influence me at all..in fact I have disdain for most of them!In fact, David,when the nicene(sp)
creed was formed the church of Jesus Christ
was no longer in tact and functioning under the
Influence of the inspired Apostles it was kapoooot!Gone!IMHO! Have a good day!
Elvis

Aniko
"Religion, all religions I know of, don't allow for homosexual behavior."

Then you don't know much about religion.

What is sin?
It seems today every conversation about religion and especially Christianty somehow turns to homosexuality. Thats odd, as only about 3-5% of our population have that lifestyle problem. Just a few years ago no one would even say the word in mixed company. Yes indeed it is a sin in the eyes of God, and Jesus would not condem the homosexual, but He would tell them to "go and sin no more." This country has pretty much fallen off the moral wagon. For far too many lives has become totally self serving, abortion to get rid of an inconvient human life, greed in business, and preverted lifestyles that go against the plan of a loving and caring God. God loves you, find a good worship center with people who really know Jesus and they will love you regardless.

Bordering on the Cruel
Why do people spend so much time focusing on small issues. I'm sure you feel Jesus is telling you personally to attack gays. Why don't you stop attacking and go to a soup kitchen or be a big brother or something where you can make a positive difference. G-d is pretty clear about the proselytizer. They all fail. Look from Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Baker and that moron in Colorado. All of them proselytizers. You people are just smaller versions of them. Look in the mirror and be honest about your own sinning. Did you take something extra at the supermarket? Did you donate enough to Charity? Are you adopting a child from some teenager you talked out of an abortion? Clear yourself and you will have enough to work on. You will also find you may be a bit more compassionate.

hall of misnomers

There is no "gay" Jesus and there never was. Jesus Christ is and always was a HOLY, sinless male; who is eternally the Son of God. Jesus has no knowledge of sin. Illicit sex is a sin; and of course, Jesus rejects it. He obeyed absolutely every commandment of His Almighty Father.

There are no "gay" homosexuals or lesbians. Occasionally, (maybe even often) there is a chaste, clean, homosexually-oriented male or female. This means a man or woman who loves God and obeys His commandments. He/she will be saved; going on to everlasting life and joy!!!

These are TRUTHS. Whoever denies them will damn himself to everlasting pain and sorrow. (In just a short number of years!)

Will in CA
Will with a boring insight into falsehood:

"Since I am gay, I always like to think of Jesus as gay, too. This is . . . my religious freedom granted me living in these United States."

OK; dream on. Once you're dead, the truth will dawn on you. Jesus Himself is going to send you to hell. Not just for your sexual depravity; but for having frivolously blasphemed His holy name.

Reply to clueless Robert
"Robert Location: CA
Reply # 102
Date: Apr 19, 2009 - 12:23 PM EST
Aniko
--Religion, all religions I know of, don't allow for homosexual behavior.

"Then you don't know much about religion."

Yes; Aniko has more knowledge of religion; and of the truth than Robert.

OK, Robert's perverted idea of religion reflects his own lack of faith. But compared to Aniko, he's brain-dead.

Getting along with Muslims
If it takes all of this cr*p to get along with Muslims, eff them if they can't take a joke.

DAVID
2Tim3:16 All scripture is given by God,and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof,for correction unto rightousness.

Ivan fellates from NY
We can dismiss Ivan the Terrible's appraisal of Jesus Christ. The devil would never dream of being truthful; about Jesus least of all.

Here is the kernel of crap in Ivan's post;

"Jesus is not reported to have ever said one single thing condemning homosexuality. Connect the dots, Dreadnaught."

Connect your brain, Ivan. Jesus clearly stated numerous times, all mankind must repent of sis. All of us must OBEY the commandments His Almighty Father gave us. He Himself placed the Will of His Father uppermost; even to the point of laying down His life.

Look then and see what His Father told us ALL-- You and me, about men who have sex with other men:

"They are an abomination to me." He destroyed two sick cities; and Jesus acknowledged it-- speaking of Sodom. (There is no hole deep enough for you to crawl into about your sin, Ivan.)

Connect something else besides your own mouth onto a phallus, little schmuck.

Choices
You can argue all you want what the bible says or doesn't say.The fact is that most of you who question the authenticity of the bible probabaly
don't even read it.You can call a baby
a fetus,but that's the Roman word for baby and it's still a baby.
Abortion is murder whether you believe it or not!You can call homosexuality gay,but it's not gay!It's a wicked lifestyle and yes,God does love everybody,but he hates sin!

You can be saved just like anybody else,but you must repent of your sins.Rom 10:9
say this--THAT IF THOU SHALT CONFESS THE LORD JESUS,AND SHALT BELIEVE IN THINE HEART THAT GOD HATH RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD,THOU SHALL BE SAVED.KJV.

Obvious to the educated...
People are too afraid of the politically correct environment in America to speak the obvious: Islam is a religion of oppression and hatred. Oh my! Why say such a thing? Read the Quran and see for yourself:

Surah 2:98 "Allah is the enemy of all unbelievers"
Surah 2:191 "Kill [unbelievers] wherever you find them"
Surah 5:51 "Do not take Jews and the Christians for friends"

Plenty more where that came from, believe me.
God bless us so we may awaken from our slumber.

Weak Men Are Lukewarm for God
If God wanted us to worship idols he wouldn't have written into His laws that we were not to worship idols or woship any other god in a Judeo-Christian nation, but those who fear fighting back for God and for what they believe are weak and that's how the bullies of the world win the war because those who should unite and join the battle for good back down and are trampled upon and some are beheaded - and others tortured - some persecuted - some enslaved - others are starved to death - some made homeless, imprisoned, raped financially, physically and emotionally, or stripped of their kids who are abused and used - or mass murdered - because they were tolerant and ignored the violent agendas (Jim Jones, for example or Hitler who demanded to be worshipped) and failed to stand up for their beliefs which in most cases caused their people to become victims of human rights violations where they were no longer free to stand up and fight back for God or their moral or religious values because they compromised their integrity and surrendered to the bullies and conformed out of fear. But fighting back in all cases of tyrannical leaders would not have been as bad as their pain and suffering afer conforming to those who are violent or evil doers because they decided to be tolerant and became silent victims of those who abused their power.

Praising the terrorists
Yes, let's continue to compliment Islamic terrorists by calling them jihadis. Why stop there, we can call politically-motivated Western terrorists 'freedom fighters'.

Calling terrorists jihadis just because it's easy to pronounce give the impression we respect them as people giving their lives justly according to their religion. In Islamic eyes it gives them a legitimacy they might not otherwise have. We should us a different word.

Dhimmicrat
I like this new word.It perfectly describes those who would sell us out to dictators who hide behind a religion to oppress others.

Reply to Ivan

You seem to be the homosexual here, Ivan. If I were gay I'd be very willing to say so truthfully.

"There has never been a scrap of evidence that the "Devil" is more than a fantasy invented to scare children and fools."

Reply:

Actually, I'd agree with you, except Jesus Christ gave us witness of the devil's existence and his malevolence. He even cast out demons; speaking directly to them in public, with many people watching. It isn't just a "Bible story," and Jesus is God. He can neither deceive nor be deceived. Jesus is the truth itself.

Even in our day there's ample proof of the existence of the Evil One. It gratifies him to see skeptics like you, denying his reality. Furthermore; your own darkened soul can be traced to his evil influence; possibly even on your family and ancestors. Your insensitivity has origins very likely diabolical.

The devil keeps people like you living in sin. You yourself show by your indecent actions how he controls you. Mind you; this doesn't mean I hate you or judge you.

I would like to see you converted and happy.

As for homosexuals in the "story" of Sodom: They were truly destroyed for rampant, same-sex depravity, that's a fact. Where do you think the term for your sin, "SODOMY" came from?




Ivan 1:33 AM
Ivan: So . . . you are saying that God has condemned me to eternal torment because I question the veracity of a collection of ancient writings by ignorant, superstitious men? Is this the God you believe in and worship? Why would you worship such a cruel, vengeful, dictatorial god?

Jo: And the damned speaks again...

Questioning ancient writings is one thing - blasphemy is another. God is vengeful or loving - to those who do/do not live by his word. It really isn't hard to understand. It's a lot like (as you'd put it)the "vengeful dictatorial" daily laws we follow. Break them and you will be punished.

Jo: The Bible isn't meant to be
an easy read.

Ivan: How do you know what the Bible was or was not "meant to be?"

Jo: Apparently you haven't tried to read it. It is complex and cross referencing.

Ivan: What does this mean? That I should simply ignore the myriads of inconsistencies in the Bible because, according to you, I somehow haven't understood its "entire context?

Jo: Don't ignore what you see as inconsistencies -- learn. For centuries theologians have studied the Bible and THEY still have not completely unraveled it's majesty. So how in the world can you claim you know everything about it? It is pure arrogance for you (or anyone) to say they know the complete context of the Bible.

Jo: There lies the problem with the
non-religious they take one line
that fits their argument/ideology
as the entire gospel.

Ivan: I've done nothing of the kind. I asked a simple question...

Jo: I wasn't referring to your perverted ignorant question. I was referring to your abundance of ignorance on the topic of the Bible.

Ivan
Jesus was thin and neat and never married or had sex with a woman and surrounded himself exclusively with men with whom he travelled and ate and drank wine and slept.

All that makes it virtually certain that Jesus was gay as a dog groomer -- not that there's anything wrong with that. Ivan
=======================

Says the damned...

Ivan plays the fool
"All that makes it virtually certain that Jesus was gay as a dog groomer -- not that there's anything wrong with that. Ivan"

If it were so, Jesus Christ would simply have told us.

There is no word at all, in the Church or Tradition, or the Gospel; that shows EVER, Jesus speaking a falsehood. We would KNOW without question, if He had been homosexually oriented. Just as we know that, by itself, the orientation isn't held against anyone; only the sinful indulgence of it. A homosexual is quite eligible to enter heaven after this lifetime.

He/she only has to be truly SORRY for his sins and for offending Almighty God. This is called REPENTANCE.

He/she needs only confess the sin, and resolve not to return to it; and ask for God's mercy.

Through the cross of Our Holy Redeemer Jesus Christ, that sinner will receive salvation. He will enter heaven and blessedness for eternity. YES, a gay!

Let's understand above all. Christ is both God and Man without flaw. He is (He lives and reigns as we speak) truly male and not homosexual. Jesus Christ is infinitely PERFECT in every way; there's no fault, physical or spiritual, in Him.

What has Ivan proven?

Thanks, Ivan

You won't take anything I said seriously because you lost in debate. Your sole response then, is denial.

It works both ways. I reject what you say. What authority are you counting on? Only that you're free to say what's true or false. But who cares what you deny? You're protecting your turf. That's the urge to copulate on other male whores.

You have need of protection; I don't. That's why I can laugh at your desperate accusations. I have no natural enemies, you do. If it were remotely possible I have homosexual needs, I'd be just as angry and offensive as you are. I'm not. I want to help you.

I speak as your friend, hopeful for your future, not condemning. Guilt drives you to hate anybody who speaks truth to you.

That's what happens when you're a slave to sin. You're in hopeless paranoia. You fail in debate, so you're enraged. And what's it all about?

You want to be buggered silly! That's all!

Ivan - sigh
Do you have a 6th grade education and an online like to a KJV?

I looked up the Hebrew in Genesis. You might want to be careful of trying to paraphrase the English translation. You do know that Genesis was written in Hebrew, right?

The word "tseh'-lem" means a "representation of" and connotes, according to the Hebrew scholars at Dallas Theological Seminary "a phantom" -- as in "spirit". Apparently whenever it's used in the Old Testament to refer to God, the connotation is fairly clearly meant to be "spirit". I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but I can read their work.

We could also, if you want, look at the many other verses that reflect back on Genesis 1:26. For example, Jesus' own words in John 4:24 "God is spirit" (Gr. pneuma) meaning exactly that -- God is a non-material Being.

Why is that people like you love to cherry-pick Scriptures and then think that means they clearly know more than those of us who actually read the Bible and try to study more than just the verses we like and plan to take out of context?

Lon - not the heart of Jesus' message
The Golden Rule was NOT the heart of Jesus' message. There were three actual focuses of His message. One is the synopsis of the 10 Commandments, (paraphrased by me) first, you have to love God with all of your being and then, you can love your neighbor like you love yourself. That order and emphasis is important and stressed in the Greek (no, I am not a Greek scholar, but I do know one).

The second was that Jesus is God -- Peter's confession "You are the Christ!" and all those "I Am" statements in John.

The third is the Great Commission in Matthew 28 and Acts 1 -- "Christians, go tell the world about Me."

The Golden Rule sounds like so warm and fuzzy to people -- oh, be nice, but it's not the main reason that Jesus came to earth. And, when it comes to Muslims or Saudi princes -- there's many ways to be respectful without being subservient. Mr. Obama displayed subservience in a Muslim manner and that spoke loudly to Muslims that the US is ready to submit to the authority Allah (very different from the God of the Bible) has given them. You get no respect by rolling over and asking a cruel wannabe master to scratch your belly, but Mr. Obama did just that.

Jeffrey - your first statement to me
Would indicate that you think God (Jesus) should have expressed Himself in the Bible as "well, I think maybe, if you're okay with it, our relationship should be based on ...."

Truth is truth and God is truth! There's nothing relative about it and I'm not apologizing for knowing that when you do not. Again, go back and study the Bible with an open mind and you'll see what I mean. God didn't couch His words in double-speak and PC tolerance. He said what we are to believe. Anyone can read it and come up with the truth. That some come up with their own agenda does not alter the fact that 99% of the Bible, read in context, is not debatable as to what it says and that 1% doesn't affect the central doctrines of Christianity. Any argument to the contrary is based on agenda, not Scripture.

Ditto Arurorawatcher in AK
This is exactly right on. Obama bowed to the Saudi king, who, in the Muslim World is King of Islam and the keeper of the gates of Mecca. Obama knows this, and he bowed in deference to this scumbag wannabe royalty. The Saudi Kings and princes routinely buy slave girls who are being kidnapped from around the world by thugs who deal in slavery. These Scum are not respectful and therefore should not be afforded respect, much less be bowed to. Obama disgraced the United States of America when he bowed to this king. If Obama, private citizen, wants to bow to terrorist, slave-owning kings, and kiss up to enemies of the United States such as the Presidents of Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, Nicaragua, and other nations, that is his business, but when he does this as Representative of this Great Nation, he is a traitor and is in dereliction of his duty as President of the United States, and he should be impeached and tried for treason AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

Mohammed was a child molestor
If for no other reason, nobody should follow the teachings of Mohammed, the creator of Islam, is the fact that he was a child molestor. He had hundreds of wives, some as young as 9 years old. He was a pervert and this is why so many sexually perverted men in the UK, France and the United States are attracted to this cult, that they call a religion. They call it a religion because it gives credence to their perverse cult. Mohammed and Islam teaches that women and children are slaves to their male masters, and this has a certain kind of appeal to tyrants the world over.

Freedom of Religion, not Cults
We should have tolerance and acceptance of legitimate religions that promote peace and do not subjugate women or children and do not advocate violence against non-believers. Islam does not meet this test as a religion that should be afforded that freedom in this country. If France and England want to be cowed down by Islamic worshipers, that is their business. We in the United States do not have to accept their dominance here. If Mr. Obama wants to practice Islam, then he should move back to Kenya or Indonesia where he was born. Then, he can pray and worship Thug Kings as many times a day as he wishes, but not on the U.S. taxpayers dime.

Great idea, aurorawatcher--Not

Telling this poor cretin to read the Bible is like throwing the Bible into a landfill. He would only concoct more blasphemies to share with you.

Jesus says we are not to cast our pearls before swine, or holy things to the dogs. If the so-called reformers have distorted so much of the scripture it's no comparison anymore to everything the holy apostles taught us, imagine what a self-serving homosexual will carry away from the truth.

These poor p e r v e r t s have a claim on our PRAYERS, not on any exchange of ideas. We reject entirely their ideas, which are distortions and satanic falsehood.

You and your Bible, which has become a mere fetish to "evangelicals," can't cope with the devil. Don't preach any gospels that compare to Galatians 1, v. :8-9; to anybody. They aren't all of what Paul gave to the Church. Just tell Ivan the truth: indulging his homosexuality is a sin.

To Ivan
Ivan thinks:

". . . the author(s) of Genesis went out of their way to present God as *material* being,"

FALSE. God is the author of all the books of the Holy Bible; and His prophets only wrote what He inspired them to write. You start off with a false premise.

"Man being made in BOTH His "image AND likeness,"

CORRECT.

Exactly what God reveals. Not what man or men thought.

"God . . . walking the Earth, and "wrathful," . . anthropomorphic characteristics . . . fearful people regarded the creator of the universe as just another guy."

That isn't true; GOD chose to reveal:

He can be anthropomorphic for our limited reasoning. Or; take on characteristics we can identify with. Why should He represent Himself otherwise?

So a q u e e r in the 21st century won't reject Him for pure spite?

To Ivan, concluded
Ivan's goofy opinions:

"They [the prophets] exerted strenuous efforts to give [God] every HUMAN trait. Jealousy, anger, insecurity, arrogance, pity, remorse,"

God insecure? Ivan must have a painful sphincter today! Arrogance? Explain how God is arrogant, Moron? He just OWNS heaven and earth!

It's no strenuous effort to understand when spoken to by your Creator. YOU go to pieces strenuously SQUIRMING-- out of hatred for His holy WORD. (You're a prophet of the devil; a weak sister!)

"Man created God. Not the other way around."

Man's a creature of God, Ivan. Man's universal creation is coffins. Ever since Genesis, man makes coffins. There's one waiting for you, too.

". . . intelligent folks point to . . . contradictions and absurdities in the Bible,

REPLY:

1.) Who says you're intelligent? A mullet has as much intelligence as you.

2.) You "pointed out" your personal bias; unsupported by any study or authority.

3.) What you stupidly call contradictions are really paradoxes. (A term unknown to you.) And ABSURDITIES? The homosexual's trade mark! All gays live stacking up one absurd weakness on top of another!

". . . what Christians do, because the actual tenets . . . are too ridiculous to even try to defend,"

Tenets like Faith, Hope, Charity. Forgive your enemies. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I can defend them, why can't Ivan?

Ivan's tenets?

"Fellate and "corn hole your neighbor." That's what he was taught in a hundred smelly hog-troughs!

to Ivan
Doubt introduced. Is Ivan a p e r v e --or not?

We'll come back to that.

I told him, God is the author of all books of the Holy Bible. --Ivan:

Prove it. No, forget *proof*. Just present even . . . one . . . shred . . . of credible evidence for it. Do that blah"

My credible evidence is the testimony of Jesus Christ. He upholds all that we're taught about our Creator. That's the required credibility; your
"shred." Leading us to the reason I stated you're "q u e e r" in the first place. (We'll cover that soon.)

--prophets only wrote what He inspired them to write.

"How do you know that? Because your mommy told you so?"

Really want to know? Or only wanking? Ivan Yackinoff, we're speaking with?

I can tell you how I know, should you really expect an answer.

I said:
"Man being made in BOTH His image AND likeness,"

>CORRECT.

Ivan blasphemes; another sign he's demonically worked up,

"God has a schlong, and I want to know what He does with it."

I also have an answer to that. Give me incentives other than your putrid blasphemy. Try a serious query. You're not funny, Butthead.

"If Man was NOT made in God's physical likeness, the Bible is wrong; if it's wrong about that, it's . . . certainly wrong about everything."

Man is definitely made in God's image and likeness. But as far as a physical reproduction; not-- because God made man's physical substance from the earth. (Here is one of the Bible's paradoxical texts.)

God didn't come from there; He created our universe and all substance.

God created man's SOUL-- in which is our propinquity; to God's pure bodiless existence-- a REALITY.

Dodo suggests,

"God as holy chameleon . . . as we know, you're only making up this--"

We KNOW what God revealed. Without it we'd know about as much as YOU do-- practically nothing.


back to the stupid skeptic
". . . why would God go around talking a blue streak to all manner of people between 5,000 and 2,000 years ago, and then remain utterly silent for the next two millennia?"

He isn't silent, Doof. God speaks through His Church and His saints; as well as the scriptures.

. . . a q u e e r in the 21st
century.

"I'm q u e e r? Oh dear. My wife of 25 years and our three kids will be so disappointed."

Too bad; we know of precedents. Oscar Wilde, for one. I had a reason for saying you are.

"It's you who's obsessed with homosexuals. Not I.

Reply: I'm obsessed for telling the truth; not about your proclivities.

". . . obvious that like all dolts who behave that way, you are a closeted queen deep in the throes of homosexual panic and desperately afraid that you'll be outed."

Is that the conventional q u e e r ploy; homophobia? Kind of shopworn, IMHO. I liken their sickness as vaginaphobia. Get a better schtick, Ivan.

"The hilarious irony is that you've outed yourself."

That's a howler. Because I've always been out; a married, lifelong content heterosexual. ___Now, you?___

"Can't reject what doesn't exist, mate."

I'm no mate of yours. Are you a sock now? I figure you for a homosexual.

Go pester one of your real mates in a bath house. You're here hammer and tongs rejecting God, Ivan. It's settled even for you He must exist. Or else what's your bashing about?

The pest who was too bold


He/she, IT came here in the first instance to insist Jesus was "thin," so Oh! "Obviously Jesus was gay."

What was Ivan's motive for going after Christ's sexual orientation?

He justifies his own homosexuality by smearing Jesus. That alone says Ivan's a vaginaphobe. See how he fails to smear even poor moi? "Closeted queen?" Didn't come close, Pansy!

He then declares, without any authority --that the
Bible is all inventions; myth. Then HOW would he come to any conclusions about Jesus?

Just like all his wacky wanks. Wanking bolder and bolder hogwash. Listen to the EGO:

". . . what we now call the Bible were written by men so ignorant they didn’t know they were living on a planet orbiting a star, didn’t understand human reproduction,"

(That's a stretch. Gays like to copulate for nothing; that's their misunderstanding of reproduction.)

". . . thunderstorms were God’s wrath and regarded disease as the work of witches or devils?"

(We can only regard Ivan's indifferent attitude to HIV/AIDS, his own disease, as ignorance.)

"the fantasies and delusions of such primitives the central pillar of their world view?"

Yes; we live by faith; not ego, Ivan. It was the HUMILITY and faith of those primitives gave God His incentive; fulfilling His prophesies. We know it as LOVE; God loved His Creation.

Therefore He revealed Himself to the otherwise ignorant few. They had no college degrees; yet He entrusted the truth to them.

Alert, you gay Butthead! The truth lasts forever. It has no end! The Holy Bible won't die! You'll try like the devil to discredit the Bible-- but what happens?

YOU DIE; the Bible goes on living! Because its author never dies, He has no beginning or end!

Wank City Ivan
Saying, as you did, that "evidence is the testimony of Jesus Christ" when in fact there is no evidence that Jesus Christ ever lived,"

What? How were you able to discern He was gay? Did you channel your Gay Deity?

". . . your blind, stupid faith. You can't prove one myth with another."

Ivan, you wanking peter-head;

Christ isn't myth. The apostles knew Him in person. We learn all about Him from their reliable testimony. So true was it, they were willing to be crucified by Caesar to sustain it. There's little you won't do to avert your crucifixion, Mary.

But the witnesses of Jesus Christ didn't back down. Put that in your bong and smoke it, O Lewd Bugger! This is the 3rd debate you got yourself stomped in! Glutton for punishment; get LOST!

By the way, Jo


You're off the mark telling Ivan he's "damned."

He's begging to be damned, that's all. God will say what
Ivan is. --For now, he's able (in a pig's eye) to repent and believe.

We do know this much: Ivan's a homosexual; and more. He's a liar. THIS --->

Is a bald faced lie:

"I’ve read the Bible cover to cover. That’s how I know it’s fiction. And not very good fiction, either."

What an ego!

Would you even dare claim, if you were a stupid atheist; that we see no "good fiction," in the Holy Bible-- (Although all of it is true) when we can point to 188 books and movies, plays and plots, even comic books where the whole thing started as biblical, and authors ripped it off?

NO-- that's not good enough for this pipsqueak. He even dismisses it as a FICTION! That's how full of lies and hatred the devil got him!

Pray for his stunted soul, Jo!



The schmuck celebrates too soon
You're all over the place, Ivan; but here's piece of your crap to send to hell.

"The fact is that the "apostles" have no "testimony." It's all fables, folk tales, fantasies, allegories and parables written by anonymous story-tellers,"

You have a right to your own opinions. But not to your own facts. Just because you over-reach is no sign you grasp the truth. I was in Rome twice, in 2007. I saw the very sites, including Rome's ancient catacombs; where Christ was worshiped as far back as 68 A.D. A few of the first known churches are there; or have been rebuilt over. The present-day papacy is also strong as it was when Peter lived and died; in Rome.

What do I care if one insignificant cretin (you) denies the facts? Are you about to live forever? No-- in mere months, maybe years; your wanking will stop. TERMINAL; so you'll understand what you failed to understand.

I can wait. It isn't even worth getting excited about. You're a total flop now. Just wait until THEN, Hair-dresser Boy.




P.S. to the hair-stylist
I sense some real anger there, Ivan,

". . . you let yourself turn into a putrid cesspool of homophobic malevolence,"

You make me worry --not.

How did you become the malevolent vaginaphobe of Toon Hall? I guess "sh!t happened," in your puny puberty? --I'm SO sorry!

Ivan stays close to Satan
You take the anti-catholic prize, Ivan. Did you imagine I was going to react with hatred? I could. I see the devil in your discouraged anger. He owns you; poor Pansy.

You're excused for falsely smearing Catholics. You need some kind of furious outlet, now that your homosexual nudity is known to everybody. Therefore, I take no offense. FEEL FREE!

The Catholic Church is blameless. A handful of evil men can't drag her down. Let me repeat:

You can't overcome the true faith. Because Christ keeps His promise. His Church will go on strong to the end of the world. You--? Dead in a year or more. Case closed.

Ivan exposed as a midget

You're a frail fraud.

"Hundreds of deities have been worshiped by humans over the millennia. Being worshiped is not proof of existence, let alone divinity."

Ha ha!!! --You thought we couldn't trace the fact of Christ's existence, didn't you? Yet I did it. So you change the subject to "hundreds of deities,"--? --Are you from earth?

It's easy to see, Jesus must have truly lived if 30-odd years after His glorious resurrection, Christians were in Rome worshiping Him in the catacombs. Many even being martyred. This is history! All His ancient churches in Rome are standing evidence. You choose to be blind.

--So what? Atheists can't alter history. --OK! Now,

Does God punish child molesters? CERTAINLY! He punishes homosexual sinners as well. Get in line!

Look, Ivan is back ! Loooser!
Ivan is back! The know nothing arrogant, anti Christian bigot slithers in!

So Ivan, lets talk.

The last time you slithered off with your tail between your legs because YOU have no answers, just insults.

Same as now, so you post:

"dreadnaught exposed as terrified at 02:0 "

"Comment: Not hardly. He is probably laughing so hard he spilled his coffee, and had a gas bubble. But by all means keep on fantasizing. Perhaps it is one of the only pleasures in your meaningless life.

>Does God punish child molesters?
>CERTAINLY! He punishes homosexual
>sinners as well.

"That's obviously why you're so panic-stricken at the thought of being exposed as gay."

Comment: He was referring to you, moron. Try some repentance now, and get some psychological help.

"You think that if you can keep fooling the world with your pretend-heterosexuality, you can keep fooling God as well."

Comment: dreadnaught is a humble servant of God. On the other hand, we have you, a total tool of nothing, someone who believes in nothing, and cant find his backside with both hands and a road map. And tries his worn out same sex activist rant about calling others homosexual as Ivan is.

"But don't worry about it. There is no God. And if there were she wouldn't give a rat's arse whether you are gay or not."

Comment: Yes there is a God. Sorry fool. The fact is you are a total arrogant tool, and in other threads your ignorance and stupidity has been exposed and your total humiliation completed.. Not to mention the fact that you are an intellectual pygmy.

How many times will it take Ivan, before you finally learn something?

Game, set match. A slam dunk on Ivan! Ivan is toast! Dreadnaught winner by default. At least Ivan you could be smart enough to make it sporting. Come back when you learn something.

Toodles.

Owning your own Ivan :
Here is how the atheist homosexual loooser Ivan has been owned on other threads:

Gee, I never knew
Owning a far left atheist like Ivan could be so easy or so much fun. The boy is like some beta program, designed by Bill Ayers for an old Commodore, and so out of date and obsolete no one will buy it.

Here is an Ivanism, well articulated by another poster David S on another thread:

"We say that the Transcendent and Supreme is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God Who became incarnate in Jesus Christ. He and no one else.

You say that you yourself (Ivan) are the transcendent and supreme. You certainly say this, because you have already decided that there is no God. Thus, in order to know this, you have to be (Ivan), in fact, yourself God.

But I simply see no valid reason to dethrone Him and enthrone you".

So Ivan where are all of those facts and evidence you say disproves Christianity, God, etc. ??? Still waiting Ivan.

Where are they Ivan? You have been challenged Ivan, c'mon little fella, spew them out for us!

Or are you afraid of being publicly humiliated again?


His (Ivan) parents should ask for their money back for his schooling.

So many posters own him, he is toooo easy.

More fun with Ivan
An Ivanism:

Ivan the Baghdad Bob of TH :

Ivan: No such "testimony" exists, and the entire story can't be proven to be anything other than a fable.

Me: Not only does testimony exist, it comes from the Roman side, and multiple other sources, all testifying as well. Ivan refuses to accept any testimony, or admit there is evidence. That is the mark of a pathological liar.

Ivan: When you decide to provide credible evidence of what you claimed about that Centurion's "testimony" we can talk.

If you don't, you're clearly acknowledging that you're a liar, and we're done.

Me: Ivan is well aware of evidence everywhere. He can find multiple sources anywhere he chooses. Instead he uses an invalid form of arguement commonly used by propagandists to demand I show him proof. Since I have pointed Ivan to the proof, and it is so far voluminous that it can not be posted here, Ivan is simply a pathological liar in the extreme.

Here is what I posted about Ivan several times, it holds more true now:

Atheist can’t see any evidence of God.
Evidence of God is presented.
All evidence of God is immediately rejected.
Atheist can’t see any evidence of God.

Ivan can not stand it when the light is shined on him. Look how he flails, hisss, and spits at the truth.

So much for Ivans evidence he claims he has.

Spitting at Dreadnaught among others, humble servant of God.

danger! danger!
Look out, Ivan! Where can you hide now that anderson's on your back?

Go to some dark toilet stall, keep quiet; morning is coming when you can peep out; he might be gone. Lol!!!

Ivan's one of those gifts who keep on giving. When he's finally cooked we'll have got a hundred new converts to the holy faith!

What a q u e e r innocence he brings to this forum! Knocks the faithful, drops his pants! Keep it up, Madman!

the world of a midget

Ivan; senseless and impoverished gay midget, said:

I did . . . refer to the Roman Catholic Church, the world's oldest and largest ongoing criminal conspiracy,"

Reply: Did those old nuns aggravate little Ivan the dwarf? Wherefore this paranoia; his suspicions of secret conspiracies? Can he explain his persecution complex?

". . . responsible for the deaths of millions,"

Actually; we don't keep count. Maybe it wasn't millions. Just a few hundred thousand; like gay Midget's midnight encounters in the park.

the torture of uncounted thousands more."

"The Catholic Church has been a holocaust for children, with its priests,"

A scandal in the sacristy goes a long way for guilt-ridden Midget. He parlays ten shady priests into a holocaust cargo of victims. While ten thousand other priests live holy and blameless lives; serving God.

And those various gay victims are hardly even questioned. Their veracity is rock-solid as they collect billions of dollars in settlements. Most of them will never have to work again.

". . . employees and other functionaries engaged in an orgy of child- molestation and rape going back hundreds of years."

Reply: "Engaged"--? Do you get engaged every time you have an orgy with Gerald and Mike? Who's YOUR guest functionary tonight, Ivan; at the "Let's Get Poked Party" in the woods?

"a less lethal note, the Catholic Church has been the world's fiercest opponent of human freedom,"

I'm disappointed. Why are you now going less lethal? What's "human freedom," Ivan? I'M your fiercest opponent, BTW.

Human freedom is what Christ laid down His life for. We were slaves to sin. The Church has your freedom awaiting you, Midget. Just come down from your ivory tower.


Get this to the midget
2nd installment for Ivan:

". . . vociferous advocate of censorship, book-burning and mind-control."

Reply:

I can do that. (I sure got you under control.)

"In a sane world, the authorities would padlock the Catholic church,"

I wish they would. Our faithful are badly in need of hard times in a catacomb. Too many grow lukewarm. If we could just gather more of them here at Toon Hall. That's a good suggestion, Midget! (Which authorities are you talking about? You reject all authority, don't you?)







conclusion to midget
seize its trillions in assets and use the proceeds of their sale to compensate as many of the church's living victims as can be found."

Trillions in assets? I had no idea! The Pope should be smoking Cuban cigars riding in a gingerbread house on wheels. Instead he has a goofy little golf-cart with windows. Who DOES all that art belong to in the Vatican collection?

It belongs to YOU, Ivan. To all of us; but primarily it's God's. We owe God the first-class and finest of everything. Gold isn't good enough to offer God. If we only had permission to offer Him human sacrifice! (Can't do that, it's a sin,) I'd love to give Him roasted midget on a tiny little altar. Shucks! That's never going to happen.

"If there were a God, the Catholic Church would be an abomination in His sight."

There has always been an Almighty God. He's Our Father. His Church is HOLY. Notwithstanding the mob frenzy of her accusers. You're quite correct. This is not a sane world! You are living proof, Ivo.

Lastly:

"the proceeds of their sale to compensate as many of the church's living victims as can be found."

Dear Ivan;

The question is; How to compensate YOU, for the loss of your sanity? You're a living victim of the devil.

Wouldn't compensation from the devil be in order? Why doesn't he even compensate you for being his staunchest advocate? He takes you cheaply, I'd say. Get on his case, Thumbelina!


study, please
". . . a study that found 10,667 people accused 4,392 priests of child sexual abuse from 1950 to 2002. -Reuters, 4-12-08"

REPLY:

Over 52 years. Who knows how many were guilty as charged and how many were innocent, but settled out of court?

Like Ivan. He got fellated once and forever after was judged to be a --p e r v e.

We're not counting, this time, the 8,000 times he serviced another homosexual. (Keep it relevant.)

gospel of the gay boys
"Life is interesting but meaningless, and the universe is utterly indifferent to us. THAT'S gospel you can take to the bank."

Interesting. But Ivan calls that gospel; "good news" for gays--?

I won't deny the universe is indifferent to me. Who ever suggested we need the universe? We need God, because He gives meaning to everything; life --or death. He loves us. There are many gays He loves. How would I know; I'm not one of them. Yet, it's well-known, to Christians.

Now, THEY; they're indifferent! Life means (to Ivan) they die in the end. OK--what's "interesting," if it's meaningless?

Take it to the bank. A meaningless bank for a midget's gospel. HOWEVER! They demand the right to marry the equally q u e e r. Wow-- Is there "meaning" in that?

This is a mad midget! Ivan's smoked the weed too long and too often. No wonder he hates God.

That turned out well


The midget leaves, as anderson foresaw,

. . . with tail between his legs. The reason; he's lost patience.

"I'm out of patience and will return to threads where people support their opinions with purported facts."

But, Ivan, little wankster:

It's all meaningless! Your zingers, your anger; meaningless! Trillions you slobber over; children who got holocausted. Your orgasmic love of studs, MEANINGLESS!

Try getting to heaven; you'll finally get a life!
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